"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222d4dd3261b824ac78d2189949fe54560\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 18 NOVEMBER 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ec21499916d64e46bd27d2b41ffc660d\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 18 NOVEMBER 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022798fb1b3b72a460295b47d533aeffce9\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002203e3618f665b4029a3a5ae31b8e05c28\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u00222b2e8dd5aa654b01b524bb1a8fb83b38\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b2e8dd5aa654b01b524bb1a8fb83b38\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Assistant Speaker):\u003C/span\u003E E te Atua kaha rawa, ka tuku whakamoemiti atu m\u0101tou, m\u014D ng\u0101 karakia kua waihotia mai ki runga i a m\u0101tou. Ka waiho i \u014D m\u0101tou p\u0101nga whaiaro katoa ki te taha. Ka mihi m\u0101tou ki te K\u012Bngi, me te inoi atu m\u014D te \u0101rahitanga i roto i \u014D m\u0101tou whakaaroarohanga, kia m\u014Dhio ai, kia whakaiti ai t\u0101 m\u0101tou whakahaere i ng\u0101 take o te Whare nei, m\u014D te oranga, te maung\u0101rongo, me te aroha o Aotearoa. \u0100mene.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E[Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King, and pray for guidance in our deliberations, that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom and humility for the welfare, peace and compassion of New Zealand. Amen.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002259d6e81da3554cc0b89a85036db5366c\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, and Select Committee Reports\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227c130e83a5d14314a04195a7478e1c3e\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, and Select Committee Reports\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u00228b0cc549d70e42008bf80fd50d2f1bf7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b0cc549d70e42008bf80fd50d2f1bf7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No petitions have been delivered for presentation. Ministers have delivered 12 papers to the Clerk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022a323463670774f88ae40b636d00fa799\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a323463670774f88ae40b636d00fa799\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2024-25 annual reports of\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003EEducation Payroll Ltd\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003EClimate Change Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003EHealth Research Council of New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003ENetwork for Learning Ltd; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003EPharmac\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Elong-term insights briefings on\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003Ebuilding New Zealand\u2019s long-term resilience to hazards; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003Ethe future of Public Service integrity\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EInvestment Statement 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2025-26 statements of performance expectations for\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003EEducation Payroll Ltd\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003Ethe Health Research Council of New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003ENetwork for Learning Ltd; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003EPharmac.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u00227b5f2a9e73ab4c5eb045c4019eabfda0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b5f2a9e73ab4c5eb045c4019eabfda0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those papers are published under the authority of the House. Nine select committee reports have been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022b78f700d785747dbada5c5183c20bf6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b78f700d785747dbada5c5183c20bf6e\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EReport of the Education and Workforce Committee on the 2023-24 annual review of Te P\u016Bkenga\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereports of the Environment Committee on the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003Epetition of Forest \u0026amp; Bird; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003Ereport of the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, Urban ground truths: Valuing soil and subsoil in urban development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereports of the Justice Committee on the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003Epetition of H Hakepa; and the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003Epetition of Jody Hopkinson\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereports of the Petitions Committee on the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003Epetition of Carin Robinson; and the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003Epetition of Yasmeen Altaher\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereports of the Primary Production Committee on the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003EAnimal Welfare (Regulations for Management of Pigs) Amendment Bill; and the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003EBriefing on the Queen Elizabeth II National Trust.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u0022d37795ed80744fc4925bb4134c601cd2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d37795ed80744fc4925bb4134c601cd2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for second reading. The reports of the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment and briefings are set down for consideration. A bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022adcc9960ccc54ff2854382be426a0620\u0022\u003EAmended Answers to Oral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225f071b9037e14cc589f5ed458e50d912\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10 to Minister, 12 November\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a9318877a8c64968b8c8a5c9e4c44aea\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9 to Minister, 13 November\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022 data-id=\u002245c17feacbae4c8c87515810eee38f63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245c17feacbae4c8c87515810eee38f63\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister for the Public Service):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I seek leave to make a personal explanation to correct answers I gave during oral questions on 12\u00A0November 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3db94dfe9a24df9b8255d469598aeba\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f70f0cedd5aa4c02a6c0c2700181263e\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: In answers to oral question No. 10 on 12\u00A0November 2025, I advised that neither the Prime Minister nor I had advance knowledge of the Public Service Commission\u2019s intention to pay for advertising to reach audiences affected by the strikes. That statement was correct. Neither the Prime Minister nor I were told in advance. I also note that in answers to a follow-up question on the same topic\u2014question No. 9 on 13 November 2025\u2014my colleague the Hon James Meager also stated that I was not informed in advance. However, late in the day on 13 November 2025, my office discovered that it had been informed, on 17 October, that the communications would include paid social media. Either earlier information Public Service Commission had not advised it would be paid, and the addition of the word \u201Cpaid\u201D was not noticed by my office, being in an A3. The Public Service Commission also did not highlight the change, as it has used paid social media before, most recently in 2022. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221bb791eebfdd421dbc42954db117ffdc\u0022\u003EVoting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e83aa254d36f4018b6a70e552c185b31\u0022\u003ECorrection\u2014Medicines Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022 data-id=\u002228bee8d83f0940588cbccf7349daa554\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228bee8d83f0940588cbccf7349daa554\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek leave to correct a vote which was mistakenly given on my behalf on the Medicines Amendment Bill third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u00224f69741a1eff4ef699057651177ad8bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f69741a1eff4ef699057651177ad8bb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b46a328d985d4899a1c0d65ae1615a4e\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI\u003C/span\u003E: My vote on the Medicines Amendment Bill third reading was given as one against. It should have been one in favour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u0022265ff1986cb140068227cc41b4aff636\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022265ff1986cb140068227cc41b4aff636\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. A bill has been introduced\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de4344fd4d5844d58ca9a22352fa7d7b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Do you recall me raising a point of order about the authority for certain members to have their vote cast the way it was? I was overruled, and here we have got somebody now correcting it. That was only a week ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u00221333acd8aade49a5ae3d5c7d6d34212c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221333acd8aade49a5ae3d5c7d6d34212c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ea6999e6e8445c69a820b7a8abfdc5d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Well, maybe there\u2019s a lesson I would like to hear that we\u2019ve learnt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u0022d34f74a1df0f4b08a7f4ed3697ada35f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d34f74a1df0f4b08a7f4ed3697ada35f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if you\u2019re expecting some sort of humble pie exercise from me, it\u2019s not happening. A bill is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b39f3231e86a4fecb32c23f617cc2e34\u0022 data-id=\u0022990ba135466e4e4393f0cceede524d2c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b39f3231e86a4fecb32c23f617cc2e34\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022990ba135466e4e4393f0cceede524d2c\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS (Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek leave to correct a vote which was mistakenly given on my behalf on the Medicines Amendment Bill third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4c9f75622f04d97aaf5e355c7fae46e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4c9f75622f04d97aaf5e355c7fae46e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b39f3231e86a4fecb32c23f617cc2e34\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291ed3b8ad8b14ec6897cdbaf118dc3c9\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u003C/span\u003E: My vote on the Medicines Amendment Bill third reading was given one against. It should have been one in favour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u0022d26ccf4a364b4bf18e33f95bcfa187d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d26ccf4a364b4bf18e33f95bcfa187d4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Well, in response to the Rt Hon Winston Peters, I\u2019m starting to back down a little bit. I think that if other parties are being asked to cast votes for people who have Speaker\u2019s leave, they should make sure that the people casting those votes understand exactly what was required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bbe422453bb7424ca5ea469e81193730\u0022\u003EIntroduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225ec9b3fa45c94a59901779972b2cd7e9\u0022\u003EIntroduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u002232f08ea6d2d2469d8fe4a5c3e956a987\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232f08ea6d2d2469d8fe4a5c3e956a987\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A bill has been introduced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022f715fd71b31b4d85a8aadb532471d8e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f715fd71b31b4d85a8aadb532471d8e8\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Education and Training (System Reform) Amendment Bill, introduction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u00228fb04de431354d5c968bbcfee2fac444\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228fb04de431354d5c968bbcfee2fac444\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for first reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002201ab085891d14a0cb39dc6d530f111e3\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates Declined\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221e30c5c6bc564bafb06908abdf73cfcc\u0022\u003ETransfer of Funding\u2014Bridge Funding in Hutt South Electorate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u002268198127df0c486f995d130f0c80d1be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268198127df0c486f995d130f0c80d1be\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I have received a letter from Tangi Utikere seeking to debate, under Standing Order 399, the decision by the Minister of Housing and the Minister of Finance to transfer funding to fund a bridge in the Hutt South electorate. This is a particular case of recent occurrence for which there is ministerial responsibility. I have considered this matter carefully, recognising that expense transfers do occur. Having weighed the interests of the House and ministerial probity with the high bar for urgent debates, I do not think this matter warrants setting aside the business of the House today. The application is declined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223765aff2c753451c8d7ace97f164e92c\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022702aecc09a2247a6bef3b004cf290631\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022016ba46b3a6340ba853f0b2f66dcee04\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022 data-id=\u0022d39c533b7d92483da6ff4de2c9ddb1d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d39c533b7d92483da6ff4de2c9ddb1d0\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all the Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022 data-id=\u0022da826597849d44d199aab879dcc093b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da826597849d44d199aab879dcc093b8\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and can I just personally extend the member a very warm congratulations on his recently announced engagement and wish him and his fianc\u00E9e all the very best for the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acdb9f1fe8414cb59fca6dd76417db45\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m surprised it wasn\u2019t a snap debate application.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227629c11988154b1fb0d643635fc4a03a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I can assure the Prime Minister there were no Government actions involved. Does he agree with the immigration Minister that over 200,000 people leaving the country is just due to \u201Cnormal economic cycles\u201D; if so, how much more exodus of talent do we need to see before the Government will stop treating it as simply business as usual?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb87b77c2bbe4f71b3c80fb1a878117e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as we have discussed in recent weeks, people go overseas to earn more money, and the reality is we have been through incredibly difficult and challenging economic times\u2014not helped by that member\u2019s previous Government that created a huge amount of economic pain and suffering for people\u2014but, as I have said before, if the member really cared about this issue, he would back mining because there are a lot of New Zealanders going overseas to Australian mines for high-paying jobs. I haven\u2019t heard him categorically rule out the Greens\u2019 recent madness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7f23cbbe4b64d5a941daef45ca12f83\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept that rising unemployment in New Zealand, including 20,000 fewer jobs in building and construction, under his leadership is one of the reasons that Kiwis are giving up and leaving?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282dcbc1eb2074c629f6715015f82dd4e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said before, it\u2019s been a very difficult time. Unemployment rising is a function of wasteful Government spending, driving up inflation, driving up interest rates, putting an economy into recession, and that\u2019s why this Government is doing everything it can to balance the books and to make sure we have prudent economic management. It\u2019s been good to see commentators reporting that unemployment is now peaking. We obviously want to see that coming down, but one of the ways we do that is we create opportunity for our people here at home. That means supporting fast track so we can create job-rich infrastructure projects, it means supporting mining, and it means repealing the oil and gas ban\u2014good things that create high-paying jobs in regional New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f68cd5c3c96f4b31ab92236c66b744a0\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why does he regard infrastructure spending as wasteful spending, given it is one of the areas where his Government has reduced public spending?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ae2f5af7fd546fc88a106c08e75e9f8\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t. It\u2019s great to see the infrastructure pipeline has increased, yet again, this quarter. More projects are being financed, more projects are under way, and that\u2019s a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf6bc23c956140fc91c3d1aef3da0b4b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why has his Government agreed to a policy on financial support for unemployed 18- and 19-year-olds that, potentially, offers more financial support to low-income parents who reduce the amount of paid work they undertake?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277e0a2995a874217a0c383e17e852a91\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We stand by our policy on 18- to 19-year-olds because we\u2019re not prepared to consign young to a life on welfare unlike the previous administration. At a time when there was 3.2 percent unemployment and 60,000 more people put on unemployment benefit, that is utterly unacceptable. We care about those young people. We love them deeply. We want them connected to work, education, and training.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b7600ca7e8c4177bf90d3c2e42db257\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: So how is telling their parents that if they stay home and work less, their families will be financially better off, a way of addressing that issue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228deca9c4601e433caa42d535ce38014a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I have greater faith in parents than that member because I think that any parent that actually thinks that\u2019s the way that they advance the interests of their 18- to 19-year-old\u2014that\u2019s not the way forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcdccfc349bb4ee8962d27650437b32d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Christopher Luxon that \u201Cpeople skipping meals because they can\u2019t afford food\u2014that\u2019s serious\u201D; if so, why, under his leadership, are one in four households with children regularly missing out on the food those kids need to grow?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221830d6b10f1469eb55af5f51ebb2d6b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Because my comments are about the fact that that is the reality when you don\u2019t run an economy well, when you crank up Government spending by 84 percent, when you add in $43 billion of new taxes, and you triple the debt so that we end up paying $9 billion to $10\u00A0billion worth of interest, which is money that cannot be used to support out fellow Kiwis. That is utterly unacceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7a269fab9a84d568b721598115b3301\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he still think it isn\u2019t \u201Crocket science\u201D for parents to buy bread and fruit for their kids, given that those basics are now too expensive for many families, with the cost of bread and kiwifruit up 50 percent in just the last year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a2c3a987922460fb10f6b39620f4d9d\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I\u2019ll just say to the member, food price inflation is up about 4.7 percent. It was up 12.5 percent under his Government. There are global prices around dairy, red meat\u2014that has been well recorded\u2014and coffee that has driven that number, but that is a lot better than 12.5 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df852957be0b485eba35f709e02243d0\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: What happened to his promise of a \u201Ccomprehensive plan to rebuild the economy, to end the cost of living crisis, to lift incomes, and to give Kiwis a reason to stay\u201D when, after two years of his leadership, the economy\u2019s shrunk, the cost of living\u2019s worse than ever, incomes have only stagnated under his watch, and the number of Kiwis giving up and leaving is now at a record high?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc2300bb919c45cba5cb4632953c228c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m proud of this Government: a 35-year-low recession that we inherited, and, importantly, a long COVID hangover because of the actions of the previous Government. But isn\u2019t it fantastic that we\u2019ve cut back on wasteful spending? We\u2019ve got inflation down from 7.5 percent down to 3 percent, and we\u2019ve got interest rates having been cut eight times. We\u2019re now growing our economy, and we want to see people put into work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f677dce8ccc14f94a3203ebe2011df11\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The Prime Minister continues to claim that the Government inherited a recession. I seek leave to table the Statistics New Zealand data that shows that the economy was not in recession under Labour; it went into recession under National.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be60aa6cf6294976bf53a8694f320665\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sure that that information is publicly available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b39f3231e86a4fecb32c23f617cc2e34\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cc43e6cfd774717b9eb576713ab8b63\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u003C/span\u003E: Given the overwhelming pushback from more than 200 schools and the Iwi Leaders Forum, does the Prime Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225490e1bee54849759a6d892372eca371\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on\u2014wait on. Start with a question word, and ask a question without the statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b39f3231e86a4fecb32c23f617cc2e34\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211aa8a4bf5804a4e87ee2e1100f180f2\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister continue to have confidence in his education Minister, given the significant pushback by schools\u2014more than 200\u2014and the Iwi Leaders Forum to retain Te Tiriti o Waitangi in education legislation and delivery?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221934cbe8b0274e199e8049c4c46f7875\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. She\u2019s done more in two years than the previous Ministers in the last six. But I want that member to be under no illusions: if you actually think about upholding the obligations of the Treaty of Waitangi, your first obligation is to get your kids to school and to teach them the basics brilliantly\u2014some maths and some reading\u2014and that\u2019s what the focus needs to be. We make no apologies\u2014none whatsoever\u2014for the number one priority of our school boards to be to get your kids to school and get them educated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b39f3231e86a4fecb32c23f617cc2e34\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b8412e708f340c48f073ed7103bca7f\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary. Does the Prime Minister believe\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d66bd7eb8f34dd4852b1940a36ad36f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, we\u2019ve had enough. We\u2019re moving on to question No. 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528134adfa6c4ba1a72e2cdf9c07bd9e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231b4c23ec43646378754f20fbe8b4f03\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6e3a992c4ab4617b9b8e07b3f759607\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, have you got a question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528134adfa6c4ba1a72e2cdf9c07bd9e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234a447d0d71d4ea6989fca06518cd6a3\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm that the absence or otherwise of the Treaty of Waitangi\u2014we are still seeing an improvement in M\u0101ori numeracy, given that some M\u0101oris don\u2019t know how to count?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022944cdb3160ee4de1b365796ceebfc488\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ll just say, I am very, very proud, and I think all members, the independents that are here, Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014it\u2019d be fantastic to say congratulations. Isn\u2019t it fantastic that five-year-old, young M\u0101ori students have seen such an improvement in their literacy in their first 20 weeks at school? That\u2019s something that all members of this House should be celebrating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226d3e9e98e6224703b047f7cd313db610\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224b2f5c45d42a433893ae6677b9a7307d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e61e7bd802184e6889f8acf750db9b23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b2f5c45d42a433893ae6677b9a7307d\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e61e7bd802184e6889f8acf750db9b23\u0022\u003ECAMERON BREWER (National\u2014Upper Harbour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent announcements has she made about fair trading?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022 data-id=\u0022814662a463284505890e3dbdf3fffeca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022814662a463284505890e3dbdf3fffeca\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E On Sunday, commerce and consumer affairs Minister Scott Simpson and I announced that the Government is increasing penalties for breaches of the Fair Trading Act. The purpose of the changes is to deter unfair trading that disadvantages both consumers and other businesses that do play by the rules. Common examples of unfair trading include misleading advertising, inaccurate pricing, refund refusals, non-delivery of goods, and subscription traps. Legislation giving effect to the changes will be introduced to Parliament early next year and is expected to pass into law later in the year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b2f5c45d42a433893ae6677b9a7307d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aee1234dfcc74129a453d28c56f587f1\u0022\u003ECameron Brewer\u003C/span\u003E: What is the difference between existing penalties and the proposed new regime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c620e09b023b4d97b25ce1fd46ed21fa\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: At the moment, the maximum penalty for a breach of the Fair Trading Act is $600,000. The changes we are proposing will increase the maximum penalty to the highest of either three times the value of the commercial gain, the value of the transactions, or $5 million. This means that serious offenders will be liable for fines of up to tens of millions of dollars if they have gained significantly from breaching the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b2f5c45d42a433893ae6677b9a7307d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bc8b177695d4afd86c78e2d9fb44e3b\u0022\u003ECameron Brewer\u003C/span\u003E: Does this mean penalties for all offences will automatically increase?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd54262c90e24991a2ebea67c954d3de\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: No. The courts will continue to have discretion to consider a range of factors. These include the nature of the conduct, whether the party has breached the Act before, the size and scale of the party, and the breach it made. The courts seldom impose the maximum penalties, but lifting the ceiling gives them more room for discretion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b2f5c45d42a433893ae6677b9a7307d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e045874ba79432aa57332650051a9fa\u0022\u003ECameron Brewer\u003C/span\u003E: Why are these changes necessary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d36d3ef71e0841c482d7f2eed75a4325\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, penalties under the Fair Trading Act were last updated in 2014\u2014so more than a decade ago\u2014and they are no longer fit for purpose. Over the past five years, the number of complaints received by the Commerce Commission has increased significantly to more than 10,000 in the most recent year. Some businesses have breached the Act multiple times. There are circumstances in which the gains to be made from breaching the Act can currently outweigh the penalties for breaching it. The new regime will eliminate those incentives, and these changes will give New Zealand consumers more confidence that they are being treated fairly by the businesses they buy from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022053345292bfb4b23af9ce2009081d9c7\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c9009c5cf5494842897c71bb42cfee2a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e83f08b2a2a74ba99c61314471cd7b53\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c9009c5cf5494842897c71bb42cfee2a\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e83f08b2a2a74ba99c61314471cd7b53\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: E tautoko ana ia i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero me ng\u0101 mahi katoa a t\u014Dna K\u0101wanatanga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c9009c5cf5494842897c71bb42cfee2a\u0022\u003E[Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022 data-id=\u00220f9ac772435b4c7e83a8b1da854d788a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f9ac772435b4c7e83a8b1da854d788a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c9009c5cf5494842897c71bb42cfee2a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224847e985e13f4486bcc7c2904929ba55\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think it is possible to protect the environment and create new jobs, or is relying on extractive industries the only way to create jobs? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222abad59f97404bea953412fc1a0eef67\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first part of the question, yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c9009c5cf5494842897c71bb42cfee2a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222014ed71c7ef44b9a9946d744ee3d5db\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: How would he respond to concerns that he is leading a Government that is willing to risk permanent and irreversible damage to our land, oceans, and fresh water through his Government\u2019s courting of policies of offshore mining?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207797597203f4d7492df3de479a59880\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: What I\u2019d say to that member is I think their actions are economic vandalism and insanity. I think the recent statement and policy we\u2019ve seen around mining makes no sense. You are literally, as a Labour-Greens coalition, telling regional New Zealand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da79b52ba24f4afea184ed3749dd2df2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just answer from a Government perspective. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c9009c5cf5494842897c71bb42cfee2a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ffde8d1476643598b5f233cc85ac515\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think it\u2019s acceptable that his fast-track process could be excluding the voices of communities like those in Otago, Northland, and Coromandel who don\u2019t want to see their local whenua or moana turned into an ecological wasteland? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e73281c27044551bb0bdeb4d507b00c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I reject the characterisation of that question, but I\u2019m incredibly proud of our fast track. We make no apologies: we are going to get things done and built in this country, and we are prioritising economic growth above everything else. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e403fa20016949748f5f83cc5ae552c2\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Government very careful not to do permanent and irreversible damage to New Zealand\u2019s reputation by avoiding even the threat of tearing up consents already issued?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a188165a33e4a08bc04c59499772930\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We are. I think that is very dangerous when you send a message to regional New Zealand that \u201CYou don\u2019t deserve high-paying jobs; you can go on the benefit.\u201D I think it\u2019s a very dangerous message sent to international investors that creates a chilling effect for all investors. I think it\u2019s a very dangerous thing when you say, \u201CWe won\u2019t do those high-paying mining jobs here in New Zealand, but we will do them in Australia, so go over there.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c9009c5cf5494842897c71bb42cfee2a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc6b6a767da642c2aff91fc375454ef7\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Government\u2019s message to people in regional New Zealand that their future is in the boom and bust of mining, instead of backing them with long-term, sustainable industries that won\u2019t disappear when all the profits have been extracted from our environment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b6cc54497ac48cb8adcec59117ec05f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Our message is very clear to regional New Zealand: you deserve high-paying jobs, not just being consigned to a life on a benefit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c9009c5cf5494842897c71bb42cfee2a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b58a58bd1bd496697d87ab9c8bc2761\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept that genuine economic security for workers comes from sustainable industries like wood processing, renewable energy, or Jobs for Nature, and not from gambling the future of our regions on the fluctuating price of gold and coal? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e33ec7e51fdd4a238102ef86c781ab69\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I think job security comes from actually respecting the rule of law and not ripping up contracts you don\u2019t like the shape of. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebf52ff5584241db8f9cecbaa984c54b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Shane Jones. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528134adfa6c4ba1a72e2cdf9c07bd9e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226fc1590d8674356990741fbc4772163\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: To the Prime Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd450b0775eb4d34aa0ea623c93026ae\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, just wait till the House shows some respect for people who are about to ask a question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528134adfa6c4ba1a72e2cdf9c07bd9e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c66802e1b94443da957327436653a60e\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: To the Prime Minister: what is his response, given that the message has gone to international and domestic investors that their rights will be expropriated after the next Government, heaven forbid that the last member who spoke should be in a Cabinet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248b3388b175547f694f769b81e58c227\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I think it sends a chilling effect, as we saw with the oil and gas ban. That is what happened. It sounded like a great bumper sticker, but the second and third order implications were not thought through and, as a result, we have a shortage of gas which we desperately need. This just sends a chilling effect to investors\u2014all investors\u2014for a country that struggles to attract foreign direct investment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c3c1f0a64584be7beb1eb55ec6d6555\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I just want to reiterate that the Prime Minister has responsibility for the Government only and that while I did let that question go because of the way it was structured, it\u2019s not appropriate to use supplementaries from the Government to attack Opposition parties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218d0c31a92854ddbb6380b7025f927ad\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could I ask the Prime Minister whether he finds it ironic that the Nordic countries are the world\u2019s leading environmentalists but they believe massively in extraction because you can\u2019t get to being one without the other?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272658054db0e47029223abb43810caaa\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister\u2019s exactly right: if we want to make the transition to clean energy, we actually need mining\u2014we need mining for electric vehicles, we need mining for solar panels\u2014and Norway is a great example of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221511340fe6174e96beeaa6acce160b5a\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: How important does the Government believe confidence, continuity, and certainty are for investment, jobs, and growth? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baecb0b08d414713890d2e10a9b8d0af\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely important. It\u2019s important, as I said, to respect the rule of law and to ensure that there is certainty, that there is clarity, because these are investors making long-term investments that end up ultimately creating high-paying, high-income jobs for Kiwis, and that\u2019s a good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225c4b77f305dc404fa3d0fdd2bdfa5d88\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225dec06e8b9d847bdbf5a51cad169ca1b\u0022 data-id=\u00223997e43218f54200ba3660aa9f289dcc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225dec06e8b9d847bdbf5a51cad169ca1b\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223997e43218f54200ba3660aa9f289dcc\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does she stand by all her statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6bad8fdcdc742b48e94c8be0042d01e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6bad8fdcdc742b48e94c8be0042d01e\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E In context, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225dec06e8b9d847bdbf5a51cad169ca1b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d349eb9b14a48d993ad94b8bc9901bd\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: What process does she undertake to ensure that ministerial conflicts of interests, perceived or otherwise, are managed appropriately when it comes to joint ministerial funding decisions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229560c4ebe7ff4fe8977eef2efa83aec3\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The management of conflicts of interest is a matter for the Cabinet Office and the Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225dec06e8b9d847bdbf5a51cad169ca1b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce061e06a2f44d0c98bb6cb0424c93d2\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: On what date did Minister Bishop, the MP for Hutt South, first approach her regarding using K\u0101inga Ora funding for the RiverLink bridge project, and in what capacity did he approach her?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d70e05089995493f99e90250bfc0461e\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: With that question on notice, I\u2019m happy to get a written answer to the member. If the member wants specific questions on a particular line of questioning, she should make it clear the subject of her questioning in her primary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225dec06e8b9d847bdbf5a51cad169ca1b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022feb8f198d9ec483e9052ddf5079f7ed1\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Did she, given the ministerial funding decision did not go to Cabinet, seek specific Cabinet Office advice regarding any potential or perceived conflict of interest for Minister Bishop jointly signing off the use of K\u0101inga Ora funding for the RiverLink bridge project; if so, what did that advice say?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d09b3e689ae6433aad9667a1523690e1\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: No. I did concur with the advice from K\u0101inga Ora, who advised that the course of action I agreed to was the right course of action. I am pleased that our Government has actually delivered the funding for the Melling project, which the last Government talked about, never funded, and never started.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225dec06e8b9d847bdbf5a51cad169ca1b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263b1985c45ce4eb1b0b4af68f876c5fe\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Did she seek any advice from Treasury regarding using K\u0101inga Ora funding for the RiverLink bridge project, given that the request for funding was dated 12 March and she signed it off on 21 March?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291a868a56f264c819802bdf6c5947bfe\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I did receive a cover note from my Treasury secondee with their views on the proposal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225dec06e8b9d847bdbf5a51cad169ca1b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022055080ef81b545a293f09c64d0ab3d39\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: How can the New Zealand public have confidence in her decision making, given she sought no Cabinet Office advice, only received a Treasury private secretary cover note, the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development opposed a funding transfer, but she proceeded to sign off funding for the RiverLink bridge project with Minister Bishop, given his conflict of interest as the MP for Hutt South?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022670a17e76fb941ad866d89d787a64d72\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: There are many statements in that long question which are wrong\u2014in particular, the advice that I received was both from the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development and K\u0101inga Ora, who provided the full advice on this decision; and also, the member\u2019s continued assertion that I am responsible for the management of any perceived or actual conflicts of interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5649604ee404449b5745795ac893247\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister not think it\u2019s extraordinarily novel that helping one\u2019s electorate is regarded as a conflict of interest these days in the Labour Party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7d8a8f14dbe48849450664819fd99e3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225487404a94804bbf8cb9fceeb1e95eb8\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: What!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290c1a86c57d54026ad77361fa91a5cae\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister has no responsibility\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9269d4f6f144740abbb4981d4f00db7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: She said it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204090468e6ba47e6a45b35199c446640\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014for the other side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d057c4e7d3aa4342ac6c0952aa4cd842\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea34fda094dd4176b3bb059ac6bd02d5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: She may well have alleged that she was\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241fdfe04cd7e4bffa82d2dc4ab8c4701\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: She threw that into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022472dd9ee6e5244909e9305d9eada0875\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c058c3a9e1a4f04a445b10e242e71b2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: That entitles me to work on that and use that information. I didn\u2019t introduce it; she introduced it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203e732fcaa8446b086351278ac99453f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right, in context of the Government\u2014the Minister answered it in the context of the Government. But I think\u2014the member\u2019s been here a long time. He knows he\u2019s made his point. The Hon Shane Jones. Did you have a supplementary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528134adfa6c4ba1a72e2cdf9c07bd9e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279bfff6ea2eb4d5285d7f3b388addaa9\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s quite clear, in Standing Order 390, that the member of the Labour Party is not allowed to throw those epithets. There is no conflict of interest in looking after the constituency who sent you to Parliament. How can that possibly be admitted? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022109711b9a25e4c5088cd3feeb8a31825\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s a matter for debate\u2014that\u2019s the point. I\u2019ve already ruled; it\u2019s not going to be debated further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225dec06e8b9d847bdbf5a51cad169ca1b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225bc727c44574dc3baf147bca5712a27\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of paragraph 2.81 of the Cabinet Manual that states that \u201CWhere the member also holds the relevant portfolio or is the Associate Minister, further measures\u201D in relation to conflicts of interest are set out in the Cabinet Manual, but \u201CIf the matter is more significant, the Minister may instead pass ministerial responsibility for it to another Minister\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203a8982606d144efa4521880620f5e0e\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and I\u2019d suggest that the member really wants to ask questions of someone else and is putting them to me. I can only assume that that\u2019s because she\u2019s afraid of the debating skills of the person she should be putting the questions to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244c69783ea8b450896173aeab0a6742b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. During the line of questioning just put to the Minister of Finance, she continued to claim that she is not responsible for managing conflicts of interest. The Minister of Finance has the ability to change appropriations made by the House. It is a relatively serious matter. In many cases, they don\u2019t receive further scrutiny; they simply report it back to the House at some future point. Therefore, the management of conflicts of interest in that process is quite a significant matter that the Minister should be answering questions on and not simply dismissing them out of hand. The matter here concerns a Minister who has two different ministerial portfolios that were in conflict and an electorate responsibility which was also in conflict. There can be conflicts of interest between someone\u2019s ministerial portfolio and their local duties as a member of Parliament. It\u2019s a question of how those are managed. They happen all of the time. Some of them don\u2019t need management, but some of them do need management. When you\u2019re talking about millions of dollars of public money, it can be a very real conflict, and the Minister who signs that off, in this case, is not the Prime Minister; it is the Minister of Finance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f25bdb67c2841eaacb471cde46c7eee\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Speaker\u2019s role, as you know, is not to judge the quality of the answer, but simply to make sure that there is an answer provided in the nature of an address, which is not always satisfactory to all members of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c093b73a637c47f1bbb87666b5dd4cd6\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f04452b65547444a909e64ecedfa6945\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f04452b65547444a909e64ecedfa6945\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: What announcements has he made about the Hawke\u2019s Bay Expressway? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022 data-id=\u00220d3f5b1da0f4401db28c3dcbcae2f832\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d3f5b1da0f4401db28c3dcbcae2f832\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m thrilled to advise the House that construction has begun on the State Highway 2 Hawke\u2019s Bay Expressway project, one of the first new roads of national significance to reach the main works stage, and I thank the local member and her colleague Katie Nimon, who joined me last week to celebrate this occasion. It\u2019s a major milestone for Hawke\u2019s Bay and for the Government\u2019s transport investment programme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258228200476648f0992f7a729bbd297b\u0022\u003ECatherine Wedd\u003C/span\u003E: What are the benefits of this critical project? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de1c15c19a6a4d35b85aea1d90cc06c6\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: As the member knows so well, the expressway is a critical lifeline route, linking people to the regional hospital and, indeed, the busy airport and the port. It\u2019s a national freight corridor. It will deliver an average peak-time travel improvement of 21 percent and an average 18\u00A0percent improvement in reliability. It\u2019s a very important project for the lovely part of the world that the member hails from. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dbad8002986434e9cd723c4fed27756\u0022\u003ECatherine Wedd\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Hawke\u2019s Bay Expressway construction corridor include? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a240c3607c9b4337a9d8f08275b456fd\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: It includes 7 kilometres of four-laning between Links Road, Pakowhai Road, and Taradale Road, duplicate two-lane overpass at Meeanee Road, a duplicate two-lane overpass at Kennedy Road\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022002041ee93e94d75a55bbf80fb803f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dc798811f8244e498ada44acf9d217f\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Walking and cycling? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222375c970e7ee4a9da836c5f1239ad509\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014a duplicate two-lane bridge over the T\u016Btaekur\u012B River, and a four-lane grade-separated interchange at Links Road and Pakowhai Road. I invite the member who is calling out to go for a cycle or a walk in the Hawke\u2019s Bay and maybe just calm down. She will enjoy\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3eb8c705b5c45e48a0248fccb3dff00\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019ll do\u2014that\u2019ll do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d247d3b644a24089b8e583165e749514\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the experience. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e62b1aa84979477da506c8005a54925e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019ll do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227edee21fe531428d8bc300d633e8536e\u0022\u003ECatherine Wedd\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7f0459ee5334b179646c72b6015b46a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022000a5ca7c14143b598f0f2b120746676\u0022\u003ECatherine Wedd\u003C/span\u003E: What are the next steps to the delivery of this project? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efe5b805d4494b298aeb1c3b59830431\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Initial construction focuses on the section of road between Taradale Road and the T\u016Btaekur\u012B River. Four-laning is expected to be completed in 2028. Work on the new overpass on Meeanee Road is planned to start in January 2026. The full project will be completed in December 2029. It has a construction budget of between $600 million and $700 million, and alongside the investment in the Waikare Gorge bridge replacement, it is over $1 billion worth of infrastructure investment in this wonderful part of the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a417ab5853a04c0dbf09feeace77bc01\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022002041ee93e94d75a55bbf80fb803f27\u0022 data-id=\u0022092b99b8822347428277b70660dfc253\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022002041ee93e94d75a55bbf80fb803f27\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022092b99b8822347428277b70660dfc253\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: E tautoko ana ia i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero me ng\u0101 mahi katoa a t\u014Dna K\u0101wanatanga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022002041ee93e94d75a55bbf80fb803f27\u0022\u003E[Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e69c0dbd1b2345c0bdb755bd9540dde4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e69c0dbd1b2345c0bdb755bd9540dde4\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022002041ee93e94d75a55bbf80fb803f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5e57934b62d432ca4ce64a54c33f75c\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Is his Government committed to contributing to the global effort under the Paris Agreement to limit global average temperature increases to 1.5 degrees?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d64f321849f848cbacb3ed3a5c76d847\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We are doing everything we can to meet our international commitments, but, of course, our most important one is net zero 2050, and it looks like we\u2019re on track to deliver that maybe a little bit early.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022002041ee93e94d75a55bbf80fb803f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9c2e3b71dea4b868966410a95347ce6\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Are our domestic climate targets\u2014especially with the Government\u2019s halving of our methane target\u2014sufficient to meet our Paris Agreement Nationally Determined Contributions (NDCs) to keep global warming below 1.5 degrees Celsius or not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1f981d7dd5949d2bc4d5046d717314f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Look, the NDC target is tough, but we\u2019re going to give it a good go. We\u2019re going to prioritise domestic action. The good news is that NDC2 is now aligned with net zero 2050\u2014that\u2019s a good thing\u2014and, of course, this is a Government that has actually looked at the science and made a very good decision around methane emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022002041ee93e94d75a55bbf80fb803f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214b4c39f492b47609385b177abe4ffce\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Does his plan to untether the emissions trading scheme (ETS) from our Nationally Determined Contributions under the Paris Agreement mean that the Government is conceding that we will not be able to meet our international commitments through domestic action alone, and, if so, how many billions of dollars is he budgeting to pay other countries to reduce their emissions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d74d4348952471b915b4018c0a0994e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, again, linking the ETS to align with our domestic budgets and targets is just a sensible thing to do. It was a domestic policy tool that was created before the Paris Agreement. It\u2019s absolutely critical for us to deliver on our net zero 2050 goals. With respect to NDC1, I just want to reassure the member that we are not sending billions, or jobs, overseas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022002041ee93e94d75a55bbf80fb803f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022117fd605cd98430383a80de4e5cdd4e1\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister aware that the Ministry for the Environment and Treasury have estimated that our country could be liable for anywhere up to $24\u00A0billion to pay other countries to reduce their emissions, which becomes more and more likely with every action that his Government undertakes to increase our emissions, such as those policies announced last week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299afc20e18ce4857901985de5f1d92fd\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I just want to reassure the member, in answer to her questions, that there is no way that we will be sending billions of dollars overseas\u2014period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022002041ee93e94d75a55bbf80fb803f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200a3f284ab96464bb55a111a27679061\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister now telling the House and committing the country to not paying offshore mitigation to meet our NDCs under the Paris Agreement? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e908cbc25f44f1fafb3322f0292cf8e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m saying NDC is tough, we\u2019re going to give it a good go, and we\u2019re going to prioritise domestic action, as I answered in the first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022002041ee93e94d75a55bbf80fb803f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9ef11236ae04d9698f4d1a5ceaf4829\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. My question was specifically about the commitment that this Government is making to meet our NDCs and the billions that need to be budgeted to do so. The Prime Minister didn\u2019t even address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7c2c3e5983b402d988d815304191dd4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, your question asked if he was telling the House, and then it made a statement. He responded to that. Is there another supplementary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d1ee3b59e6d24949be295ac9e0f65fe9\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022 data-id=\u0022489636f8edd048ce949997ead7328367\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022489636f8edd048ce949997ead7328367\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: Does he stand by his statement, \u201CIt\u2019s part of the Government\u2019s work to ensure New Zealand has a credible pipeline of high value infrastructure projects extending into the future, and that they\u2019re ready to go as funding becomes available\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022 data-id=\u00226004269f09554e3293034a3bb5665cb3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226004269f09554e3293034a3bb5665cb3\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. The Government has committed to building a long-term pipeline of transport infrastructure investments to address our infrastructure deficit and build jobs and growth for Kiwis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dc886ef34254bd8926056e9fb8be7a6\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: How can he stand by that when he used K\u0101inga Ora funding to push through a bridge in his own electorate, a project his Government had already cut?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fcce6a18fac4ec798ea5cba6f367823\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I reject the characterisation of that. Firstly, the decision was made in relation to that as Minister of Housing, not Minister of Transport. Secondly, the member asserted, this morning, it was for State housing. The money was not for State housing, even though that\u2019s been pointed out to him at least twice by journalists. The third point is that I have acted in accordance with Cabinet Office advice throughout this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c21879b54de14aba87b8dfa04bdbe8b2\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Did anyone advise him that his involvement in the funding transfer could constitute a conflict of interest, and, if so, who?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022706f82645a5a4766954361336a73a6ea\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve acted in accordance with Cabinet Office advice throughout this process. Right from the time I became a Minister, I have sought and taken, and acted in accordance with, Cabinet Office advice in relation to local advocacy projects. The short story here is actually not a complicated one, which is that the Hutt council asked the Government to allow them to swap some money allocated for water infrastructure into another form of infrastructure. It was not dissimilar to a separate request from the Hamilton City Council made a few months previous, in which they sought permission to transfer money that had been allocated to them in relation to the infrastructure acceleration funding given for a cycleway across the river in Hamilton. Ministers agreed to transfer that money from a cycleway, in that instance, into waste-water infrastructure in the Hamilton CBD.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220800e687ea6d45128b610ffd163d139a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister reference the very credible pipeline of a high-value infrastructure project near Palmerston North, and what did Tangi Utikere say about that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c5fe90195c947caba208b7d0f2e26e5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, he can talk about a high-value pipeline, but he can\u2019t reflect on a member of the Opposition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ac7541689e243289891a766446c7d64\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. I\u2019m talking about the Manawat\u016B-Tararua development, which everybody is saluting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4da844ae1464dab83578de9809ddc20\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there are lots of things happening in Palmerston North, particularly around freight, which I know the member asking the question is an advocate for, and I suspect also the member who asked the original primary is as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220da22bb57c994066b5c6f6d2d87d4fe8\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: On what date did he seek the Cabinet Office advice on potential or actual conflict of interest management in relation to the decision to redirect $27\u00A0million of K\u0101inga Ora funding, and what did that advice say?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227278c6c1239647af817106966678bfb3\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as the member, I suspect, does know or perhaps should know, Ministers have regular meetings with the Cabinet Office, right from the time they are sworn in as Ministers, in relation to conflicts of interest, at least every six months. I had my first one soon after\u2014[Interruption] Just listen: I had my first one soon after being sworn in as a Minister, and I have acted in accordance with Cabinet Office advice the whole way through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022276f7455af42488e84619a7ae46c44d8\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Why did he not recuse himself and delegate responsibility for those decisions, given the conflict arising from the project being in his own electorate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f46f0de321c9448b8dacf1c72d65d1be\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: The member is making an assertion there that is not borne out by the facts. I have acted in accordance with Cabinet Office advice and guidance the whole way through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022786a517927984e25a13f9be6684d6103\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister maintain that he is ensuring a credible approach to infrastructure while he intervenes in funding decisions for projects in his own electorate without recusal or adequate conflict of interest safeguards?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022235baf1fde7447e2b6518c1dfdf47270\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, three points: firstly, I followed the advice from the Cabinet Office; secondly, the decision was made by two Ministers; and, thirdly, last time I looked, that member supports the decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222b959435deb54431b8620097db9f612f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Regulation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022 data-id=\u0022be534fa4b95d42ee9a7f7301cdc69324\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be534fa4b95d42ee9a7f7301cdc69324\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Regulation: What does the passing of the Regulatory Standards Bill mean for New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u00221751e059959b483990afe30ff6807f78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221751e059959b483990afe30ff6807f78\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Minister for Regulation):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d00890c5faf94c119a79c21e10fe3f87\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, just hang on\u2014hang on. Why so much talk? The Hon David Seymour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3fafb9d17ac4e5cb4a31cac7509b35c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: It means when politicians bring legislation to this House and officials make regulations that affect New Zealanders\u2019 lives, the impacts on them, on their property, and on their liberties, and the question of whether the law was made properly and thoughtfully will be crystal clear to those New Zealanders so that they can put pressure on politicians and choose better laws for their future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249a2940e5cc646eeb07ef3342d820335\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: What are the next steps in bringing the Regulatory Standards Bill to life?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e6055d12dd743e5a3e745706276e7ad\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: The House passed the Regulatory Standards Act last Thursday. It will come into effect progressively from New Year\u2019s Day 2026. There is work to be done, creating guidance that the Act provides for so that officials and Government departments can make sure that they are properly following its requirements. There is also a Regulatory Standards Board to appoint, who act as a watchdog to ensure the declarations for the public benefit are made properly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263d9f471bd844701863d2d47c381a26f\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Regulatory Standards Act be helpful to decision makers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280601ebf403f4c5ea3c800bd10468a1e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sure I speak for many people on both sides of the House who have been subject to long, ponderous, and ultimately ineffective regulatory impact statements. This will be changed, to a large extent, with the Act\u2019s introduction of consistency accountability statements, which have legislative requirements for what they must contain, and no more, so that decision makers and the public can clearly see what the impacts of a Government\u2019s initiative on the people of New Zealand actually is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022480247e8ba1848689cef8cf9a8380ec2\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Regulatory Standards Act be useful to public servants developing policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1363ae50a3c41e8a89921366221462b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Well, right from the beginning, public servants will be required to think hard about what the impacts of rules and objectives they pursue on New Zealanders actually are. I was just reading an excellent opinion piece on The Post about an Epsom electorate constituent we\u2019ll call Robyn, who lost her life-savings and her livelihood because of a totally irresponsible piece of legislation that came out of this House. People in New Zealand will enter an era of transparency and accountability where if politicians want to do things like that to people, at the very least, we as a country will be making those decisions with eyes wide open thanks to the accountability and transparency brought by the Regulatory Standards Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223f9966f1eb2347ce86a787fe5a7629ce\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Tourism and Hospitality\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f111048ae5a4b77b2be86987bd8aafb\u0022 data-id=\u0022368e2b75f42b4aadb9f4b8bf37ebb5cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f111048ae5a4b77b2be86987bd8aafb\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022368e2b75f42b4aadb9f4b8bf37ebb5cb\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Tourism and Hospitality: What recent announcements has she made on tourism in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002215080e7fbe3a4bfc9d4e668dd042447f\u0022 data-id=\u002293484de3abde4869aa3fbcc77bc66a05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002215080e7fbe3a4bfc9d4e668dd042447f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293484de3abde4869aa3fbcc77bc66a05\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Tourism and Hospitality):\u003C/span\u003E Last week, we announced the first tranche of the successful recipients of the second round of the regional tourism boost. Four successful campaigns will attract more international visitors from Australia and Asia to explore, stay, and dine in our regions. We also announced that we are investing $2 million to extend the Dunedin Tunnels Trail. Tourism is a crucial part of our Government\u2019s focus on economic growth, so these announcements mean more international visitors exploring our regions, which is good news for small businesses, jobs, and the local economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f111048ae5a4b77b2be86987bd8aafb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225df10870e9d545a6abecb44ca8833603\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: What are the successful regional tourism boost initiatives?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002215080e7fbe3a4bfc9d4e668dd042447f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222488fe199caf4a14aa72f0455d7de210\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Three regional tourism organisations will launch four campaigns focusing on attracting international visitors, between January and March next year. RotoruaNZ, along with other North Island regional tourism operators (RTOs), are partnering with Ctrip to attract travellers from China, Hong Kong, Japan, and South Korea. RotoruaNZ, in partnership with 14 North Island RTOs and major airlines, are targeting people travelling from Australia\u2019s eastern seaboard. WellingtonNZ\u2019s Classic New Zealand Wine Trail is promoting wine, food, and star-gazing to Australian visitors across Wellington, Wairarapa, Hawke\u2019s Bay, and Marlborough. Lastly, but not least, the Great South\u2019s Southern Way will encourage Australians from the Gold Coast to explore the southern and lower South Island.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f111048ae5a4b77b2be86987bd8aafb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201fcd16523ae4e51a2b45e35f8ee4904\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: What benefits does she expect to see as a result of these announcements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002215080e7fbe3a4bfc9d4e668dd042447f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022818fa31926424915a3ed69b1e3ed3f53\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: The benefits of these investments will reach beyond our cities and into our regions. Our regional tourism boost package is part of a bigger plan to create a thriving, resilient economy. There is an appetite for growth in our regions to encourage more international visitors to explore the special experiences New Zealand has to offer outside of our main tourist hotspots. By investing in the Dunedin Tunnels Trail, we will attract more visitors to the Otago region, helping to unlock the region\u2019s full tourism potential. More visitors means more income for local businesses, more job opportunities for Kiwis, and a stronger economy for all of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f111048ae5a4b77b2be86987bd8aafb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250ecfa544a004ef7a1326f6739568ea7\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has she seen on these announcements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002215080e7fbe3a4bfc9d4e668dd042447f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290945141c46a4c89856cd460b22403d0\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: RotoruaNZ\u2019s chief executive, Andrew Wilson, has said, \u201CWe\u2019re really grateful to the Minister for making some further money available to run a few more campaigns.\u201D Fifteen regions, from the top to the bottom, and the breadth of the North Island\u2014we\u2019ve got a bunch of communities that will really welcome the value that tourism brings to them. There will be more to come. These campaigns are about more than promotion; they\u2019re about helping visitors feel welcome, stay longer, and explore further. Every time an international visitor comes to New Zealand and spends money at a local shop, restaurant, or cafe, it\u2019s good for jobs and it\u2019s good for our local economies, and that\u2019s why we\u2019re doing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022693debcfd3b346f0bf8f1efb4fd8e322\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022311eba0f075e448993bb59225ea956bb\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4d1d0a7e51046839a47711bbc2fc780\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022311eba0f075e448993bb59225ea956bb\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4d1d0a7e51046839a47711bbc2fc780\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: What are the total proceeds received from the sale of K\u0101inga Ora properties under this Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022 data-id=\u002205d9542b137a46ba8aeac832a8743410\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205d9542b137a46ba8aeac832a8743410\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E K\u0101inga Ora advised me that, so far in 2025-26, a total of $99.5 million has been generated through the sale of 297 homes. In the 2024-25 financial year, K\u0101inga Ora sold 119 homes, generating total proceeds of $53\u00A0million. For the period from 27\u00A0November 2023 to 1 July 2024, which is the balance of the time this Government has been in office, K\u0101inga Ora has been unable to work it out in the available time for this question, as it would require a manual process. From 1 November 2023 through to 1 July 2024, there were 15 house sales. If the member wants the exact balance from the 27 November onwards through to 1 July, that will have to be done through a written question\u2014apologies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022311eba0f075e448993bb59225ea956bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b68364ce8a1451386fdea59fb03fd32\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Has this or any other funds administered by K\u0101inga Ora been redirected to purposes other than housing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022357c85a89e314c6896b86211e596690f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: The K\u0101inga Ora sales programme, as a result of the K\u0101inga Ora turnaround plan, is focused on selling older properties in high-value areas with the proceeds going to provide multiple other units in different areas. That process is managed by K\u0101inga Ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022311eba0f075e448993bb59225ea956bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228937445e91f84134a7cc68b445126189\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: How can he justify redirecting funds administered by K\u0101inga Ora towards building a bridge in his own electorate\u2014a project his Government initially declined to fund\u2014when the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development advised him not to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022211110d050d042dfa2c51ba120cdc500\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: This is a wee way away from the primary, but the Infrastructure Acceleration Fund used to be administered by K\u0101inga Ora. We\u2019ve now taken it away from K\u0101inga Ora because we want them to focus on their core business, which is running the social housing portfolio of the Government. I think I\u2019ve dealt with the issue in relation to the City Link Bridge, in relation to his colleague\u2019s questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022311eba0f075e448993bb59225ea956bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7fe445edfef4e71856efd4b836a7890\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. In response to questions from Tangi Utikere, the Hon Chris Bishop said that this is a matter more related to the housing portfolio, not the transport portfolio, and now that we\u2019re asking questions of him in that capacity, he\u2019s saying he\u2019s already dealt with those questions. He can\u2019t have it both ways, sir.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022397528c22019470a81ab7c0d6eaf1a5a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, quite right. You can have another crack. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d39dd58aa4e476abd492466e8b6def9\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, does the member want to repeat the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ae2d731ea0542b488e25842863dfb55\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: What day is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022311eba0f075e448993bb59225ea956bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c80903c98463402b879fbb94400f6db5\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t be so hard on yourself, sir. I know you\u2019ve been here a while, but I\u2019m sure you know what day it is. How can he justify redirecting funds administered by K\u0101inga Ora towards building a bridge in his own electorate\u2014a project his Government initially declined to fund\u2014when the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development advised him not to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022202547d3c6404acda3ed2ab5b252f1a0\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: There are a couple of errors there. Firstly, the Government didn\u2019t decide to decline to fund it; it did not come up for funding approval by the New Zealand Transport Agency through the Government policy statement, which is a separate decision. As I\u2019ve already said, it was a pragmatic decision. The Hutt council wrote to the Ministers and wrote to the Government and asked for the funding swap to take place. As I said, in relation to Mr Utikere\u2019s question, it\u2019s not dissimilar to the Hamilton City Council asking for exactly the same thing not a few months previous, and Ministers approved that as well. Ultimately, the Infrastructure Acceleration Fund, which was set up by the previous Government, gave money to a variety of local councils for local infrastructure. This is still being spent on local infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022311eba0f075e448993bb59225ea956bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211fefe2de46147f99990d01d99bab8b1\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that the total number of K\u0101inga Ora houses will have reduced by 177 by the end of the year, as confirmed by his responses to written parliamentary questions Nos 39322 and 39321?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b6f79cbd63f4b66951ab83a8fba06b8\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: That is probably true at a particular date and point in time. On balance, over the next few years, K\u0101inga Ora stock will stay at around 78,000 units. At any one point in time, it will be up or down a bit, depending on the sales process, depending on demolitions, and depending on construction timelines. As the member knows, these things oscillate a bit. There was a point, at one point, during the previous Government when there had also been net demolitions and sales compared to construction. But ultimately, over time, you\u2019ve got to look at the smooth glide path into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022311eba0f075e448993bb59225ea956bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ba235e939014b8fadebe19b7dcc989a\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Does he believe that the growing number of people experiencing homelessness in the Hutt will take comfort from the fact the number of K\u0101inga Ora houses will go backwards by the end of the year, at the same time that funding intended for housing has been redirected for unrelated projects?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2291866434c45b5aa8d143de3985f1f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it wasn\u2019t intended for housing; it was funding intended for infrastructure into the CBD. It is, essentially, a funding swap from one form of infrastructure to another, as the member well knows, and, actually, I think all members of the Opposition support that project, so it\u2019s a bit strange to criticise it. I\u2019m also advised that since this Government came into office, the social housing wait-list in the Hutt Valley\u2014as, indeed, it has around the country\u2014has fallen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe11d6a1c9a342daaafb5c9cd4d9a79c\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Could the Minister please expand on the \u201Csmooth glide path into the future\u201D, which he has described for K\u0101inga Ora?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bfc297e9b0848c09d80d799c08afac5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: No, because I used a term most commonly found in the bureaucracy, and I\u2019m regretting using it already.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c8549dd82e844a0e9d82f763bcf3f935\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Building and Construction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5e90f053a7c4627a57736c890d64ed0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5e90f053a7c4627a57736c890d64ed0\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Building and Construction: What is the Government doing to make building easier?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022 data-id=\u0022929221474d3840dd84ae87c59da4499a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022929221474d3840dd84ae87c59da4499a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E The Government\u2019s doing a lot to make building easier because that means more affordable homes for families, more economic growth, and more jobs for Kiwis. This includes the overseas building product regime for more affordable, quality building products to enter New Zealand, common-sense changes to insulation rules, and allowing Kiwis to build a granny flat of up to 70 square metres\u2014a single-storey, simple dwelling\u2014without a building or resource consent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022135a03674cbb46e7a1702eb18be53797\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government allowing plumbers and drainlayers to sign off their own work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a300aa47d74438fa3af9917598ce1f5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Today, a bill will have its first reading that will enable plumbers and drainlayers to certify their work. This policy is backed by sector groups such as Master Plumbers and will bring plumbers and drainlayers into line with the work that electricians and gasfitters can already certify. The relevant plumber or drainlayer must meet certain eligibility criteria, and the work must be relatively simple, low-risk, and routine. We know that about four inspections per build are undertaken for plumbing, so this will make a meaningful difference for tradies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2de8ef37a7a4c8eaadb407630ead1cb\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: What else is the Government doing to speed up the consenting system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218d90407ba194be5bb586ce35f7361b4\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Well, one of the biggest frustrations that I hear from tradies is that it takes many days and sometimes even weeks for a building inspection to take place. These delays are frustrating, costly, and get in the way of the building of homes that this country desperately needs. That\u2019s why, in August, we introduced a new requirement for 80 percent of building inspections to take place within three working days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278e1b500c7c24475b0e02b4c1658416c\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Government doing anything to help encourage greater uptake of solar panels or homes that are more energy-efficient?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a38debfb0b14e089b7073708484a67f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Why, yes, we are. We know that, in order to encourage the uptake of more solar, in the name of energy efficiencies and also lower energy bills for families, we require building consents to be issued in half the statutory time frame\u2014that is, 10 working days rather than 20. We will allow that where a building has solar panels in its plans or meets the definition of being a sustainable building such as a Homestar certification. This change will see homes built more quickly, more affordably, with lower power bills and lower emissions\u2014all of which are good for Kiwis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b34471bf85ed422ba43daa03e7a24730\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa1bde2aea3947ebbbd4948ce3d5bb1b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa1bde2aea3947ebbbd4948ce3d5bb1b\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022 data-id=\u0022d35e72440b884cc0b7b8ae2a5fdbad40\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d35e72440b884cc0b7b8ae2a5fdbad40\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fe3f1dda90c456f91628adf6c1dc1a1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CRawiri-no-mates.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad2980472429478bb7766618f46f1767\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: You done? Empty vessel. Does he agree the McSkimming case involved an abuse of power at the highest level and that this abuse of power was covered up by the New Zealand Police?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f74000ec300c4f6c9ffa3c948705eed9\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as I\u2019ve said, there\u2019s been a tremendous breach of trust and integrity, and I\u2019ve made public comments to that effect. But also, this was appalling, this was shocking, it was utterly unacceptable. I\u2019m proud of the Government\u2019s rapid response to put in place an inspector-general; the highest mechanism we have, the strongest mechanism we have, of oversight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202bdf23fdc1043db856552e4d6432849\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: How can he guarantee that the police are not abusing their power in our streets when they are so willing to abuse their power in the office?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221018d5c94772442d802359bf8629a5f4\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Because there are 15,000 men and women associated with the Police who do an incredible job coming to work each and every day to keep this community safe. It\u2019s the same police force that has ensured that we have 30,000 less victims of violent crime, which I\u2019m sure that member appreciates. It\u2019s the same police that has delivered a 16 percent lower level of youth offending, which I\u2019m sure that member appreciates as well. The men and women of the Police force do an outstanding job. They have been tarnished of the actions of a few. This is a Government that is taking serious action against that leadership group.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5cbfb67ffc949e48d40af12a3a1db84\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Has he read the Understanding Policing Delivery report that shows that M\u0101ori lodged over half of all complaints to the Police about use of force, and that M\u0101ori are more likely to be stopped, tasered, arrested, and prosecuted by the Police than any other group in Aotearoa?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc596bc3e387431c99a3667b2634c4a8\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I haven\u2019t read the report, but I would say to that member that I am very proud of our Police force. I think they do an exceptionally good job. I also note that the victims of crime are disproportionately M\u0101ori as well. That\u2019s why anything that lowers crime rates, serious violent crime, youth offending\u2014as a result, we are a Government that has put in place tougher sentencing, more corrections officers, and more investments in prisons, because we\u2019d sooner have people there than out in the community bashing and hurting and harming Kiwis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a79f1775c39426393a64d8b3f7f9450\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister aware that abuse of power can be seriously contagious and politically infectious?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b6bd65f9e2340e489b6acd4b73d9bb5\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: It is something in organisations that must be stamped out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ac30d28e87d4c4eaeedbf93ebe1da2a\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister accept that last week\u2019s Independent Police Conduct Authority (IPCA) report, alongside decades of findings of structural racism against M\u0101ori, shows that the New Zealand Police require systemic reform, and does he support establishing an IPCA that is completely independent of Police and the Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffe78bb493fd4167b05639f76f5a6c9e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is what the role of an independent IPCA actually does. This is a Government that has taken that report incredibly seriously. It was a very good quality report laying out very, very clearly the hit to trust and integrity at the top of the Police force. Importantly, this is a Government that has acted with tremendous speed to reach for the strongest mechanism possible, which is an inspector-general to have oversight of the Police as we have in intelligence, as we have in defence, and that\u2019s the appropriate action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e352449f75534f09bf3bab675ae26ff8\u0022\u003EQuestions to Members\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220f93ab4e0ead4a968c06e61e3fc80b63\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Environment Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239d4d911600b467097ed819102911df3\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Environment Committee: Why did she explain advertising an 11-day submissions deadline for the Fast-track Approvals Amendment Bill on the basis that \u201CUnder Standing Order 198, I opened submissions to meet the expectation of the timeframe\u201D, when Standing Order 198 makes no reference to the time frame for submissions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022 data-id=\u002271ba6012b2ac4fe6810b0f55657af13b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271ba6012b2ac4fe6810b0f55657af13b\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (Chairperson of the Environment Committee):\u003C/span\u003E I was advised by the clerk of the committee that in my role as chair of the committee, I could call for submissions under Standing Order 198. This call for submissions, and the submission deadline, was endorsed by the majority of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022311eba0f075e448993bb59225ea956bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc1bab7590c34fa1b1c2888ababd43a8\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank you very much. We\u2019ve got an issue here in the respect that the question asked the chair to justify her decision to call for the deadline for submissions, referring to the Standing Order which does not give her that ability and in the context of her original response to the first question to her, on Tuesday last week, which was that this was done because the Government wanted this bill to pass by Christmas. That was literally the first thing she said. Now, that, in my view, is counter to what she is providing to the House now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022416014b1eca94a67848d4f791d861489\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, what she has provided the House is the factual authority for her opening the submissions. Whether the second part of it was answered or not is a matter of, perhaps, at least one further question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528134adfa6c4ba1a72e2cdf9c07bd9e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022109c9643ce0c4a7b9b5c13a1e67b1201\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a mystery, sir, to a number of us why this question has even been permitted. When you look at Speakers\u2019 ruling\u2014and, already, Speaker\u2019s Ruling 116/3 covers this off: the chair has the authority. This issue was canvassed in Hunt\u2019s time, and I put to you, sir, that the question is actually superfluous, if not inconsistent, with the traditional practices of the House. It\u2019s wasting our time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208decd4018f84ff6a77ce3dd44c90210\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will know that the question was actually held over from last week, when the chairperson of the select committee was not here to answer it. The question itself is a legitimate question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249c5cdc70f6a405ab89672cb77232599\u0022\u003ECatherine Wedd\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I seek leave to table advice I received from the clerk of the committee about Standing Order 198 and parliamentary process about calling for submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254887e8855c5451195723543fe724508\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection to that course of action? [Interruption] Is there an objection? No, there appears to be none. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6479f299ffe45bfb095c707348f5c37\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Why, as the select committee chair, is she prioritising Government objectives over instructions from the House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220872e06e0434f9186d3ffd983ffc0c9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I don\u2019t think that\u2019s a question you can ask. Under questions to members, that\u2019s not a question you can ask.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022311eba0f075e448993bb59225ea956bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c79ea7dca894fe39c2cac9f02fba2fb\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Questions to members, quite rightly, is relevant only to the roles that they have relevant to parliamentary business, but they also relate to responses that were provided to other questions. Now, that question that was just asked by my colleague is in direct link to responses that that member provided to questions last week. The nub of the issue is that we are not disputing her ability to call for submissions, which is why we are asking why that extended to not only placing a deadline on the call but following the objectives of the Government, despite an instruction from the House to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6bc01ec359044698ca38037c7706096\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will be\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528134adfa6c4ba1a72e2cdf9c07bd9e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d89bd4bdb8844b91b01f86c824b66eea\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dad23c9308c94f2db8611db1b8f06a2c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a moment, I\u2019m dealing with one. The member will be aware that the rules for members\u2019 questions are the same as for questions that are asked in a supplementary sense, and that is that the member answering a question can choose to answer one of the legs of that question, which the chairperson of the select committee did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528134adfa6c4ba1a72e2cdf9c07bd9e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c6436d90a754953a36401682051369f\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Speaker\u2019s ruling 116/3: \u201CIt is common for the initial advertisement calling for submissions to be placed on the chairperson\u2019s authority rather than waiting until the select committee has met and formally resolved to place an advertisement.\u201D\u2014game, set, match.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e1548db1cdd4ae4b519260398a549d8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry, the member is making an awfully strong bid to end up sitting where I am, but can I just say that that\u2019s not in dispute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022311eba0f075e448993bb59225ea956bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022957a4cc1a2b143aa9a20bd00b4ec1bea\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank you, sir. That is indeed correct\u2014Speaker\u2019s ruling 116/3 is not in dispute. My previous point of order was in relation to your ruling that my colleague\u2019s question was not in order. It was simply to point out that it did flow from the responses that the member had provided, which is consistent with the requirements for questions to members, which are actually identical to questions to Ministers, as long as the topic is about the behaviour or decisions made by that member in their capacity as chair, which, indeed, that question was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022502b19548116470fbcca2bbe92868b4f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK, I\u2019ll allow one more supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220dc9127ea4944f1c9d21389765521f36\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: The same one? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022261185fd418141a4937a3b85a0566eee\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Try to put it differently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d379b3e78efd48aa9b82d8066f758f98\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll do a different one. How can she defend a decision to indicate an early report-back date when Standing Order 198 does not give her that authority?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bce9c893d68448bea517b900b2dfb0fc\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD\u003C/span\u003E: I was advised by the clerk of the committee that this course of action was appropriate and in accordance with Standing Orders. I\u2019m also advised that as the rules of this Parliament stand, there is no required minimum time frame for submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c086f8c3ef784cb2aa9fda0699f3efa5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. That concludes oral questions. Those who need to leave for other businesses should do so quietly, and without that sort of discussion. It\u2019s an opportunity for people who have other business to move to that business as quickly as they possibly can, Ms Brooking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227fca4b6648554857826447b6624bbd64\u0022\u003ELand Transport (Revenue) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229bade4411c6b4d2ea054d15eaf2e0996\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022 data-id=\u002283f7d96923974303bc912389f43ecc64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283f7d96923974303bc912389f43ecc64\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Land Transport (Revenue) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ce9eebcd8e743dc9d858dc975dbaf9f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the parliamentary website. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245cd8985d6ef4fb78289bc6eca38817a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Land Transport (Revenue) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Transport and Infrastructure Committee to consider the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003EThis bill is another step in the evolution in the approach to road funding in New Zealand. Since centralising our roading system in the 1920s, the principle that all users should contribute fairly in proportion to their use of the roads has underpinned how we fund and pay for our roading system. This is not a revolutionary idea. In this House, in 1933, the Rt Hon Gordon Coates remarked that \u201CWe should have all motor vehicles contributing more or less on the same basis.\u201D The principle that Prime Minister Coates, as he then was, talked about is fundamentally about fairness. It directly links what you pay with what you use and the benefits that you receive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003ESince then, we\u2019ve continued on a pathway towards better transport pricing. In 1977, New Zealand introduced the road-user charges (RUC) system, moving diesel and heavy vehicles to distance-based charging. That system was and still is world leading. Today, other countries are looking at the model that we adopted back then as something that they could adopt today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003EIn 2008, we moved to a hypothecated transport funding system, ensuring that revenue collected from road users was invested into maintaining and improving the transport system. As we continue on this pathway, we need to ensure that our revenue tools are sustainable, fair, and fit for purpose. This bill focuses on two ways road users contribute to the benefits they receive and the costs they impose: tolling and road-user charging. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003EThe bill makes amendments to improve the current tolling framework. Tolling allows us to bring forward investment and build the roads that New Zealand needs sooner. It means users who benefit from a new road can contribute directly to its cost. There are three toll roads in New Zealand. In Auckland, we have the Northern Gateway, and in Tauranga, there\u2019s the Tauranga Eastern Link and Takitimu Drive. Three more toll roads have been approved by Cabinet and are under construction. The model works, but as we progress the new roads of national significance, the Government wants to improve this tolling framework. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003EThe Land Transport Management Act sets the high-level requirement for establishing a new toll road. Before a toll can be put in place, the Minister must be satisfied that the road is new, that there has been adequate consultation with a level of community support, that a feasible un-tolled alternative route is available to road users, and that the tolling scheme is sufficient and effective. Within this overarching framework, which stays, the bill makes several changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003EFirst, the bill allows tolling to be applied more flexibly, to include parts of an existing road where users of that road receive benefit from the new investment. Second, the bill allows toll revenue to be used across the entire tolling scheme, not just the new sections of the road. Third, the bill strengthens the fairness principle that underpins the system. We are maintaining the core requirement for a feasible un-tolled alternative route. However, the bill will also allow toll revenue to be used to help maintain that alternative route if the relevant council can\u2019t fund that maintenance itself. The bill will also allow a restriction to be placed on heavy vehicles using unsuitable alternative routes, protecting those local roads and communities. Fourth, the bill makes the common-sense move to require annual inflation adjustments so that the value of tolls is not eroded over time. It also introduces clear principles for setting toll rates, focusing on benefits to users. Finally, the bill updates the rules for toll concessions to make it easier for the private sector to deliver the infrastructure we need. Taken together, these changes ensure that tolling remains an effective tool to help fund our roads, including the new roads of national significance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003EThere are also changes around road-user charges. To keep the funding system fair and to ensure that all users contribute based on their actual use of the roads, it is the reality that we need to transition 3.5 million petrol vehicles to road-user charges. The RUC system was designed in the 1970s and it charges vehicles based on their weight and travel distance, which is a fair way to charge for road use, but the manual payment processes reflect the world 50 years ago and they need to be updated. The current system is clunky. It\u2019s paper-based. It relies on road users monitoring their odometers, pre-purchasing the paper licences, and displaying them on their windscreens. This is a 1970s solution in a modern world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003EForcing millions of Kiwis to swap the simplicity of paying at the pump for that kind of bureaucracy would be a step backwards. Paying bills and taxes is, unfortunately, a part of life, but it should not consume life itself. The bill removes the requirement to display, carry, or produce a RUC licence. In an electronic age, a paper licence should not be a strict requirement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003EThe bill also updates the definition of \u201Celectronic distance recorder\u201D. The current rules are restrictive, hindering the use of technology already installed by manufacturers in many cars. The change will allow more flexible approaches to recording distance and it will save cost by giving drivers the option to use inbuilt vehicle technology. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003EThe bill takes a first step in enabling new, convenient payment options. Users will be able to choose their preferred method. This could include set-and-forget, post-payment systems, similar to paying for electricity or a streaming service. The current Act provides for alternative RUC payment methods, beyond the default prepay model. None have been created, because they have been restricted to vehicles with electronic distance recorders. The bill removes that requirement for alternative payment schemes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003EWe also aim to change the RUC retail landscape. The New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) is currently both the main RUC seller and the regulator. Responses to a Ministry of Transport request for information confirm that there is market interest in providing RUC services for the right vehicle fleet, but potential RUC providers see the NZTA\u2019s dual role as a barrier to offering services for road users, and so the bill enables the separation of the NZTA\u2019s RUC retail role from its regulatory role, giving the market certainty that they are entering a level playing field. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003EThere will be the opportunity for providers to innovate and invest in New Zealand. We have one of the world\u2019s largest and most established RUC systems. Having a more attractive environment for private sector participation may position our system as an example for other countries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003EThese changes are the first step in transitioning petrol vehicles to RUC. As some people will note, the bill deliberately omits a date for transitioning the light petrol fleet from fuel excise to RUC. That date has not been set by the Government. There is much work to do before we do that, and it would be a large transition as we do that. Rather, this puts in place the legislative framework on improving the RUC system for light vehicles, enabling a competitive retail market and improving user experience before that transition occurs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003EIt is really important that we get this legislation right. The Government welcomes the input and scrutiny that the select committee will provide. The Transport and Infrastructure Committee, in my experience, has done a very good job, and I acknowledge the chair in the House today\u2014Mr Foster\u2014who, I am sure, will run a robust process. My experience so far is that that committee has operated in a relatively bipartisan and collegial fashion, and I\u2019m sure that that will continue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003EThis is a really important bill. It\u2019s not a long bill, but it is an important bill in the evolution of our land transport funding system. It continues our long history of evolving our system to meet changing circumstances and of upholding the principle of fairness. It makes improvements to tolling and paves the way for a modern RUC system. It cuts red tape and enables new payment options. It is, as I say, the next step in our evolution, and I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022 data-id=\u002268be2e0aace1451d81d01a2602682aab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268be2e0aace1451d81d01a2602682aab\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise on behalf of the Labour Party and indicate that we will be supporting this bill through to select committee. There are a couple of issues that we would like teased out at select committee, which I will come to in a moment. But I just want to acknowledge the sort of historical link that the Minister has painted in terms of a picture. It\u2019s no surprise that it has been a long time since this House has turned its mind to some of the issues that are addressed, or seeking to be addressed, in this particular bill. The bill itself really has two components: one is a focus on road-user charges; the other is a focus on tolling and the role within which those as tools have within the wider transportation system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EThe proposed changes to road-user charges\u2014or RUC\u2014are generally proposals that we are quite supportive of. They seek to, in essence, modernise and bring up to speed the way in which RUC is utilised here in New Zealand\u2014in particular, around how people are required or not required to display the fact that they have purchased their road-user charges.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EThe issue is that there are huge administration costs currently in terms of the current way in which RUC is administered in New Zealand. It is certainly our hope that with a change to modernise the system that consumers, households will be the ones that will, at the end of the day, benefit from that. Anyone who has a look at their road-user charge admin fees will know that there is a real issue there: there is no inconsistency in terms of how that is applied. The change around separating the RUC provider and the RUC collector\u2014effectively, the regulator and the seller\u2014is one that we would like to explore further at select committee to ensure that there is no over-influence, so to speak, from the private sector, if that was the particular case that\u2019s being followed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EWe believe that this component of the bill seeks to look at ways in which technology and innovation can be utilised, and when we\u2019re looking at the in-vehicle electronic distance measuring opportunities, they currently exist in vehicles all around the place. Being able to utilise that, where it brings down the costs for households is a good thing, but we\u2019d still like to have a look at that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EOn the second issue, which is around tolls, this is something that we do have some concerns around. Yes, the Minister has made it very clear that the way in which some of the revenue opportunities will be addressed, effectively, is through tolling. Now, we come with some hesitation around this, because, of course, this is a Government that has a track record when it comes to tolling. We just look to Te Ahu a Turanga and the fact that that was a replacement road, the Manawat\u016B Tararua Highway, yet the Government was seeking to whack a toll on that when the community simply didn\u2019t want it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003ESome of the questions that we will be posing at select committee will be around ensuring that those issues are addressed and considered. What is actually up for tolling in this particular proposal? It should not be purely around generating revenue. We accept that there are some considerations where tolling is an appropriate mechanism\u2014we accept that\u2014but that is not the case for every single road for every single community in this country. We do have some hesitation around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EThere are some moves in there\u2014for example, ministerial oversight around exemptions for heavy vehicles not being able to utilise alternative routes, when you think about the Saddle Road in the Manawat\u016B and Tararua district where that was really pummelled as a result of huge numbers of heavy vehicles having to utilise that road, yet the council itself was not able to foot the bill in terms of maintenance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EThere are some things in here that go some way to addressing some of those concerns, but there is also a number of questions around the generation of revenue from tolling, but where is that actually going to go? We had similar conversations when it came to the congestion charging or time of use charging that this House previously has passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EWe look forward to being constructive in the Transport and Infrastructure Committee. We look forward to hearing from submitters around what impact this will have for them and for communities. We are hopeful that we will find some balance between road-user charges and a scheme and regime that is fair to all but is also able to be administratively not as cumbersome as the current one and also that there is a good conversation around tolling and the appropriateness of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022 data-id=\u00223e1ec6893f1e409290066fe5c77b0559\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e1ec6893f1e409290066fe5c77b0559\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Green Party policy actually supports that the cost of maintenance and new-road builds are entirely covered by road-user charges, including higher charges for heavy vehicles that have a greater impact, and this includes the introduction of tolls where appropriate. Having more direct and appropriate pricing for road use is something that would lead to better outcomes for New Zealand, but not the way this Government is doing it. I mean, currently, road users do not pay the cost of the roads\u2014nowhere near it. The Minister of Transport, in his speech, spoke about hypothecation, the idea that fuel tax and road-user charges were entirely recycled back into the roading network, but the reality is that road-user charges and fuel taxes do not come anywhere near covering the cost of the roads, and that\u2019s particularly true with local roads.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003ELocal roads are 50 percent\u2014at least\u2014funded by ratepayers. It\u2019s people paying rates that have to pay for the maintenance for the roads that are local, but more than 50 percent of all vehicle kilometres travelled, by light vehicles and heavy vehicles, are on local roads. We\u2019ve had this completely ridiculous situation where central government is taking money, from all over the country, from local roads\u2014where people are driving, they\u2019re paying their fuel excise duties, and they\u2019re paying their road-user charges on rural roads in Southland and Northland and the East Cape\u2014and money is going into the central coffers, and then the vast majority of it is actually being spent on new State highways nowhere near where those people are driving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EThe most outrageous thing is, oftentimes, these roads are justified on the basis that they\u2019re needed for freight\u2014for example, highway expansions in Auckland like State Highway 16 east, which goes down towards the port, and the Waterview tunnel connection; oversize and heavy vehicles can\u2019t even use that infrastructure; they\u2019re actually banned from it. You\u2019ll see brand new tractors being driven on Symonds Street, right through an area full of pedestrians because it\u2019s in the middle of the University of Auckland, at peak time. We\u2019ve spent all this money on highway infrastructure that\u2019s supposedly to facilitate freight, and it\u2019s moving on the local roads, damaging the local roads, causing pedestrian hazards and hazards for people on bikes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve heard members opposite say, \u201COh, cyclists aren\u2019t paying the full cost of the road\u201D\u2014you\u2019ve got to be kidding me. Everyone using a bike is saving the country money. Other countries pay people to ride bikes because it saves public money. If we were to truly fully attribute costs and benefits to people using the transport network, we would pay people to ride bikes because they save the country money in the health system, on the transportation system. That\u2019s the numbers; that\u2019s the analysis. I know the members opposite love to talk about numbers\u2014they\u2019ve never actually looked at them; they don\u2019t seem to understand them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EThe truth is that while the Minister may want to raise money from tolls, there\u2019s no way they will be able to pay for the roads of national significance through tolls. There\u2019s absolutely no way. Currently, not only do we have 50 percent of the local roads being funded by ratepayers but we have a huge amount of Crown funding going into transport into highways that can\u2019t even cover the current cost, let alone the future costs. This Government has a laundry list of fantasy roads that they say are going to transform the economy. They are not funded, and they will not be funded by tolls. Why can\u2019t they be funded by tolls? Because they have tiny numbers of cars driving on them, and most of those people are not going to be willing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d22028d10c614ef89ecce76e2f065f1b\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Let\u2019s get more cars, then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209c20ca62c9b4f77884fd10c4af094ca\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to pay the price that it would take to build those roads.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EIf we want to have a fully hypothecated approach with good pricing, we have to stop building projects that aren\u2019t needed. Do the tolling and the congestion pricing first, then invest in the alternatives. Actually, what would save the country money is people not having to own as many cars, to be able to move more of our goods by coastal shipping and by rail, to be able to move people around cities in buses, trains, and, yes, on bikes and e-bikes. That\u2019s what makes economic sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EThe reason we won\u2019t be supporting this bill is because of the very dodgy provision that allows roads to be leased to private companies for up to 50 years\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221078af49db1f4a19adf4def36d8de179\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Yes!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc072e1b32b34da58b006c20f4e708d6\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014for the purposes of providing tolling services that return a profit to private companies. That\u2019s where we come back to the ideology\u2014the blind ideology\u2014of this Government and that ACT Party member, who I know will talk about it. It\u2019s all about funnelling public money into the hands of a small few private investors and big corporations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227af71fe1298b4e259910b1ca366e0953\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Mr Speaker, I can\u2019t resist that invitation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022549699119bf7430a85228cf0e53f2fee\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Simon Court. Do your call again and I\u2019ll see if I recognise you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b59a26250b2436c8278017f32a40067\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b169dc218ed2484384be82f498ee0d15\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no\u2014just call again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e029f312386b44bdacaccad865409c62\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cee0ad06547147e884ce723330df6eea\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Simon Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022 data-id=\u002281b7f6ca85824f32991262348edcae8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281b7f6ca85824f32991262348edcae8b\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I can\u2019t resist the invitation that the member for the Green Party\u2014Julie Anne Genter\u2014offered to talk about the benefits of tolling and using private finance in infrastructure, but, first, I just want to confirm that ACT supports this bill, because it moves our transport towards something that New Zealanders have been asking for for too long\u2014a system that actually works to fund the infrastructure, that is funded fairly, and that gets things built in a timely manner. People drive every day to work, to school, to pick up groceries; trucks come to Minister Hoggard\u2019s farm to pick up milk. They all need roads without potholes, and that demands a funding model that makes sense, and infrastructure needs to be delivered without years of delays.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003EThis bill helps move us towards that direction. It modernises road-user charges (RUCs), it will encourage competition between system providers, and it updates tolling rules so we can bring in more of this private capital and build roads faster. It enables new technology, like the vehicle telematics that the member Tangi Utikere mentioned, which should be in every new vehicle imported to New Zealand, because the systems we\u2019re talking about are used every day in places like Sydney, in Brisbane, in Melbourne, and, of course in Japan, in the United States, and in Europe. But modern systems must not come at the expense of privacy\u2014that is ACT\u2019s bottom line.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003EDistance recording should mean distance recording, not building a data set of people\u2019s movements, not GPS tracking of where people are going, not a Government file on where every New Zealander drives. Technology should make life easier, not intrude further into it. Any future RUC system must, therefore, only collect what is strictly necessary, and the regulations that flow from this bill must guarantee that telematics cannot become a back door to broader surveillance of people using the roads. Kiwis should know what data is collected, who holds it, and, of course, how it is protected, and they should be confident it is protected\u2014because, once the State can follow you around, that\u2019s not transport policy anymore; that\u2019s a major shift in power. ACT will not allow that drift.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003EThis bill also deals with tolling. The principle is simple: if you use the new road, you should help pay for the new road. It is more transparent, and it is more efficient than hiding costs in general taxation, isn\u2019t it? With flexible tolling, we get new infrastructure built years sooner, using private investment. We don\u2019t even have to imagine how this works. In Dallas, Texas\u2014I visited there in 2022 and was hosted by the Texas Department of Transportation\u2014they have built, on one of the busiest corridors in the country, a series of express toll lanes to add to the existing lanes. The Spanish contractor Ferrovial built and now operates that route. The project uses private capital to upgrade the existing corridor\u2014including the free lanes\u2014without burdening taxpayers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003EThe result is faster freight movement, shorter commutes, and a corridor that keeps functioning even at peak demand. It\u2019s a practical example of how smart tolling can solve congestion problems rather than just managing them. If the trade-off is that we actually allow a competent contractor, like a Ferrovial or their equivalents around the world, to take on that responsibility, and we hold them to account in different ways through the contract, then New Zealanders should be confident that they can get better roads, they can drive faster on these better roads, and they can get to where they\u2019re going, and paying a toll will be a small price to pay for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003EAgain, modern tolling also raises the same kinds of fundamental questions about how we make sure the system works without becoming intrusive. ACT\u2019s job in this coalition Government is to keep the Government focused on performance, not expanding its reach into people\u2019s lives. New Zealanders want lower living costs, better roads, and infrastructure that\u2019s not bogged down in process. This bill helps. New Zealanders also deserve assurances that a Government\u2014this one, or any Government in the future\u2014will not misuse technology and breach their privacy by stealth. Let\u2019s modernise, let\u2019s innovate, let\u2019s fix what matters, but, as we do, ACT will hold the line. Privacy is the bottom line always. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022 data-id=\u0022d21b65c0b50b46da82de8852728ef361\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d21b65c0b50b46da82de8852728ef361\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Look, I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to speak in support of this Land Transport (Revenue) Amendment Bill. As chair of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee that\u2019s going to be receiving this, I\u2019m looking forward to considering this bill and hearing the submissions. I know we\u2019ll do that diligently because it looks as though there\u2019s going to be quite a number of technical elements to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThere are two key things have been raised already in the discussion: the first one is the road-user charge (RUC) system and trying to make sure that it is modernised\u2014if you look at all the other areas which we\u2019ve modernised in our society, by and large, people have adopted that, and they\u2019ve never looked back on that adoption. They want things that are effective, efficient, quick, and easy to use, but the point that Simon Court has just made around privacy is a strong issue for many of the people who communicate with us as well\u2014not just in this area but across the board\u2014so New Zealand First is very, very anxious about making sure that RUC systems are not an intrusion into people\u2019s privacy and used for anything other than the purpose that they are intended for, which is to support investment in the transport system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThe second one is just to say that we have a huge transport deficit in this country. We\u2019ve already heard, from the other side of the room, that money is taken from a lot of the regions, where it will be needed for investment in maintaining the roading infrastructure, and taken to build some of the roads of national significance. The reality is that we know that there is a big funding deficit. You can only deal with that in a number of different ways. The first one of them is to earn more revenue. Tolling is part of that, potentially, in some areas. The second one of those, of course, is to extend out the time frame in which you make those investments. We don\u2019t want to be undermining the investment that\u2019s actually made in the standard of the roads themselves and the bridges themselves across the country. That means, probably, extending out the capital programme, the roads of national significance. I think the Minister has indicated that that\u2019s exactly what will be happening over time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EJust in terms of some of the comments that have been made around tolling, the Manawat\u016B Tararua Highway has already been mentioned by my friend over there: Tangi Utikere. New Zealand First was also very unhappy with the idea of tolling that road as well and made that very, very clear for two reasons: one, this was not about advancing a road and getting that road built quicker, because the reality was that by the time the tolling idea came up, it was nine-tenths of the way built already. It was sprung on those communities late in the piece. The second one was it was very much a replacement road for the Manawat\u016B Gorge, which, of course, by that stage, failed and had been closed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThink, in that context as well\u2014the bill talks about this\u2014about the need for having viable alternative routes. I do ask you sometimes to think about where there might well be a road, but if it twists and turns and goes up and down the hills, it is not necessarily a viable alternative route, so we\u2019ve got to be thinking about that. That, probably, is one of the technicalities that there will be in this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThe second one, in terms of this, is the private sector involvement. I think the experience so far in New Zealand has been somewhat chequered. The private sector involvement in Transmission Gully\u2014was that a success or was that not a success? Well, there have been legal cases, the standard of the delivery and the maintenance has been somewhat chequered, and the price of the delivery has been, again, somewhat chequered. It\u2019s not just simply saying the private sector is going to do it better and can get a return from that. I think Julie Anne Genter, in speaking, also said, \u201CWell, don\u2019t expect the tolls to pay for these roads.\u201D They might well make a contribution towards them, but to think that the private sector would just, without some form of State funding\u2014of course, that\u2019s exactly what\u2019s happened in the example of Transmission Gully; there\u2019s an ongoing commitment by the State to keep on paying for that road. Without that, the tolls on those roads are simply not, by and large, going to pay for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EAn example where they did, for example, going back, would be the Auckland Harbour Bridge, but, by and large, they are not necessarily going to do that. There\u2019s going to be quite a lot of detail to be thought through about those sorts of things. I\u2019m looking forward very much to considering this bill through the Transport and Infrastructure Committee. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022 data-id=\u00226c5b08e20fab4e1887ac1c6ea92a3508\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c5b08e20fab4e1887ac1c6ea92a3508\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a pleasure to rise and make a contribution on this bill. The bill\u2019s purpose is very clear: to modernise the road-user charges system, to update and provide the financing and funding capabilities through our tolling system. As a member and deputy chair of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, I too, as the chair pointed out, look forward to hearing from submitters, and getting into the weeds of this piece of legislation because it is technical, and there\u2019s already been a number of issues raised in this debate. Actually, we\u2019ve got a really good collegial team environment on that select committee. I don\u2019t agree with the Hon Julie Anne Genter\u2019s contribution about paying people to ride bikes but, other than that, she\u2019s actually a really good contributor to our select committee. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022 data-id=\u002203e3ea9f51c94fe2bfb48805c658f3fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203e3ea9f51c94fe2bfb48805c658f3fb\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E As has been said, Labour will vote to support this bill through to select committee because our funding tools do need to be updated, and I think we can all agree on that, but we do so with eyes wide open. There are some questions, and a couple of big questions that need to be resolved, I think, before we can have ultimate confidence in what is a final framework. That is important because it is not only important for us as a House to have confidence in the framework but, obviously, the public need to have confidence in how this is going to work, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EModern transport funding, we believe\u2014and has been stated\u2014must be transparent. It should be futureproofed, and it certainly isn\u2019t at the moment. As I said, importantly, it has to be trusted by the public; not a patchwork for various new changes to be made without there being proper safeguards in place. We look forward to being able to tease some of those issues out a little bit more in the select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EThere are two main issues that spring to mind, looking at this bill, and those have both been raised by previous contributions but if we take them as two separate items, I\u2019d like to just talk about the tolling issue, and then, of course, the changes to the road-user charges (RUC) reforms. As we\u2019ve heard, tolling is a sensitive issue, to say the least, and this Government certainly has some form\u2014some recent form\u2014on springing the concept of tolling on communities who may otherwise have not factored that into their thinking, so we\u2019re going to be very interested in how that plays out. Any expansion, we believe, must be tightly, tightly justified and, obviously, used sparingly for it to be worthwhile.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EThe new corridor tolling power is one of the biggest shifts, I think, in this bill and it comes with some real ambiguity about exactly what that means; you know, what exactly is a corridor, how wide can it be stretched, what qualifies as an existing versus a new road? They may sound like simple questions to answer off the top of our head whilst standing here in the House today, but I think there will be a lot more information needed throughout that select committee process to make sure that we are all on board and all able to clearly articulate to the communities that we need to be able to communicate with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EUsing toll revenue for alternative route maintenance, again, on the surface sounds fine\u2014certainly might be quite a big help for local councils\u2014but it does raise some fairness questions, I think, especially for communities with no real, realistic alternatives; no routes in place in the first place. I think we will have to be incredibly vigilant about the fairness question, as we go through this process. Automatically increasing tolls each year through Consumers Price Index adjustments, again, might sound good on the surface but it\u2019s actually a significant change. We do need to understand how that\u2019s actually going to land, practically, for households, particularly households that are already under pressure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EWe know that this Government\u2019s talked a big talk about fixing the economy and providing relief from cost of living issues, but so far they\u2019ve failed to do that. So this is another piece of legislation that could have impacts on real-life people and real-life households, and we want to understand more about that. Transferring legal liability for tolls to the vehicle owner may very well streamline a process but it also, potentially, has some implications for families\u2014people who use the vehicles for businesses\u2014anyone using a shared fleet. I look forward to asking those questions, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EWith regard to the RUC, I think we generally do support that, as my colleague Tangi Utikere has laid out, before me, because it\u2019s a modernisation method\u2014or a move towards modernisation\u2014which is good. It is a little bit clumsy and a little bit clunky and we look forward to hearing a little bit more information about that, but we do have to be really, really cautious about that potential for over influence on the private sector, as they carve out those clear separations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EI\u2019m looking forward to the select committee process and, as always, I\u2019m assuming it will be\u2014the Transport and Infrastructure Committee is often referred to as a very collegial committee, and I have no doubt that\u2019s true but that doesn\u2019t mean that there\u2019s a free pass for all sorts of things to go on, particularly if we look at the shortening of bills. Nevertheless, in this particular reading, we support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df23ed9a7102406f9899558fb3841582\u0022 data-id=\u0022e657f5d347934580bb5608e35ecdaeeb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df23ed9a7102406f9899558fb3841582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e657f5d347934580bb5608e35ecdaeeb\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E This bill strengthens a fair and sustainable transport funding system: one fare for all users contributing in proportion to their use of the road. We have seen this with the Northern Gateway Toll Road, which has reduced congestion and shortened travelling times. The toll collected will then be invested into maintenance and safety improvements, delivering smoother and safer driving for all. By updating our revenue setting, we can bring investment forward and bring the roads that New Zealand needs sooner. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022 data-id=\u002295f0eee381bd427d8819373ae8b9fdf3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295f0eee381bd427d8819373ae8b9fdf3\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to make a contribution on the Land Transport (Revenue) Amendment Bill. This is an area that I\u2019m not usually involved with, but I have to say, I\u2019m sure that most New Zealanders, when you mention tolling to them or anything which affects their ability to get around in their car, would have a view, and a strong view, probably, on this legislation. I\u2019m no different. I support the comments made by previous speakers on this side of the House, including Tangi Utikere, who is our spokesperson in this area, who outlined that Labour will be supporting this bill, at this stage, because there is a clear need to modernise in this particular area; and, also, Tracey McLellan, who outlined our key concerns around the tolling and the road-user charge changes that have being proposed in this bill. However, this is a bill that is quite complex. In the time that I\u2019ve been preparing to make this contribution, I\u2019ve been looking through the various documents that have been provided in support of this. There are a few that I haven\u2019t been able to look at, including the New Zealand Bill of Rights vet, which, I understand, should be available now that this bill has been tabled in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EThere is a significant number of considerations. This bill does give a lot of power to the Minister in relation to the decisions that the Minister decides to make around tolling and also around the use of roads by heavy-vehicle users. I think that it is important that we scrutinise this, and that\u2019s why my colleagues have said that we will be supporting this to select committee. But we do have some serious concerns around this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EI suppose the issue with tolling is it will always be a contentious issue for New Zealanders. Our view is that it should only be used appropriately and where clear benefits exist for that tolling as well. We would like to see an effective and modern transport system, but we also need to make sure that equity is considered with that as well. Whenever we look to charges that New Zealanders will be forced to pay, which is one of the main aspects of tolling, we need to be sure that there is fairness associated with the imposition of that toll. There is, usually, an alternative route when there is a tolling made available in New Zealand, and this bill changes those settings, somewhat, in the sense that it may be, as I understand it, that this legislation allows existing roads to be tolled, but not if there is a new route being put in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EI think it will be very much on a case by case basis. It will affect communities. It\u2019s going to be something that may be quite contentious. There are other important changes, in this bill, relating to the liability for tolls. One of the things that I\u2019ve found is that every time my sister borrows my car, for some reason, a toll is incurred and that toll is sent to my house and is, subsequently, paid by myself and my husband. That is the practice in our family, and it appears that that practice will now be made law by the imposition of this, because it goes to the vehicle rather\u2014that\u2019s correct, isn\u2019t it?\u2014than the actual driver. I\u2019m not sure if she\u2019s aware that some of these roads are tolled, but now\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8e1ab186d6f4cccb2038bd941e3de4c\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: But, now, we all are!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225601621d7c464bc99737e280a4ca46e1\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: But, now, we all are. I look forward to informing her of this speech and the fact that she continues to be no longer liable for paying the tolls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022212cf7474b304d86a379dbfeb693d855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225dc7d297e1641a8a2714a083792356a\u0022\u003EHon Mark Patterson\u003C/span\u003E: Christmas dinner will be interesting!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264b81ffe8c644944943987a7c78bd4a3\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that\u2019s right. That will be very interesting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EHowever, we do want some more clarity at select committee. There are interesting issues here. I think, for me, the biggest issue is that people need to get around in New Zealand, and if there\u2019s an issue of fairness or if there\u2019s a way that people are unable to get to where they need to go without incurring significant additional costs, then, I think, that would be a downside of this legislation. I\u2019m hoping that won\u2019t be an outcome, but I know my colleagues who are permanent members of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee will be looking into that. Hopefully, as we\u2019ve heard it is a collegial committee, they\u2019ll be able to land in an area where the charges that people face are fair and are accepted by the community, and what we are discussing today can be something that can assist with our infrastructure repairs and our infrastructure expansion and that will be enduring. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224b2f5c45d42a433893ae6677b9a7307d\u0022 data-id=\u002255819d304c32449a90701bb62687d208\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b2f5c45d42a433893ae6677b9a7307d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255819d304c32449a90701bb62687d208\u0022\u003ECAMERON BREWER (National\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E In defence of the previous speaker\u2019s sister, I invite the previous speaker to step outside to the steps of Parliament where she is not protected by parliamentary privilege and make those same allegations about leaving her sister with toll bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b2f5c45d42a433893ae6677b9a7307d\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s great that we\u2019re here on the first reading of the Land Transport (Revenue) Amendment Bill. This, of course, amends that landmark piece of legislation: the Land Transport Management Act, which a previous Labour Government put together, and it has been amended and modernised since. Let\u2019s not forget that we did the time of use charging third reading last week. This Government is all about enabling infrastructure to be built. This will help achieve that. I commend the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229cf350b1a9a14d38acebf23685c276b8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Land Transport (Revenue) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11;New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 21\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000361\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022694b22d40db54a23ad13b47d86795581\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022694b22d40db54a23ad13b47d86795581\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Land Transport (Revenue) Amendment Bill be considered by the Transport and Infrastructure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Transport and Infrastructure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d3abd38575a94456ad3095c6282aaa07\u0022\u003EBuilding and Construction Sector (Strengthening Occupational Licensing Regimes) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e03ca3a359f54b7099ac2935def9122d\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022 data-id=\u002247f0c2e286474d0db76c9dea8b3c3239\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247f0c2e286474d0db76c9dea8b3c3239\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Building and Construction Sector (Strengthening Occupational Licensing Regimes) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226afc46e530ae44b0959e0c7116897379\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245229fe61bfb444f93f6d1ffcc359913\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I move, That the Building and Construction Sector (Strengthening Occupational Licensing Regimes) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Transport and Infrastructure Committee to consider the bill. At the appropriate time, I intend to move that the bill be reported to the House by 19 March 2026.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EThe Government is making changes with, I will say, with the help of others in this House\u2014I\u2019m pleased to say\u2014to the building and construction control system that will place greater responsibility on building professionals. These changes mean that it is important that building professionals can be held appropriately to account in a timely manner. This bill will make a number of changes across three Acts to ensure the licensing regimes for licensed building practitioners, or LBPs\u2014electrical workers, and plumbers, gasfitters, and drainlayers\u2014are effective, efficient, robust, and sustainable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EThe bill enables more efficient disciplinary processes, and here is how it does it. Currently, the Building Practitioners Board must hear every complaint brought before them, even if the complaint might be frivolous or vexatious. This means that complaint processes take longer and the board\u2019s resources are used on matters that do not require their attention. The bill addresses this by further separating the board and registrar functions, allowing the registrar to assess and triage complaints. An investigator then will be appointed only if the registrar is satisfied that the complaint is not frivolous or vexatious. This will allow the board to focus their resources on complaints that require their attention and will reduce the time that it takes to resolve complaints.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EThe bill also removes restrictions on the ability for the registrar of the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Board and the registrar for the Electrical Workers Registration Board from initiating complaints. This means that if the registrars of these regimes become aware of poor behaviour, they can proactively initiate an investigation, instead of allowing that behaviour to continue unchecked while waiting for a formal complaint to be made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker, the bill will also make information easier to access\u2014and I knew you were wondering about that. Currently, when a licensed building practitioner\u2019s licence is cancelled for disciplinary reasons, or they become a member of Parliament\u2014Mr Cameron Luxton\u2014their name is removed from the public registrar. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2ae2328307c4b4b91c050a495b4b32b\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281a465eb20294645bc63efa635c80cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d73637426ea4de6a3e3f69f9fad3cfd\u0022\u003ECameron Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: Mine\u2019s still on the register, to be fair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e675c15e305343c4813f0829ccabd30d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Cameron Luxton\u2019s name is still on at least one register; I think it\u2019s probably the LBP one. This makes it more difficult for consumers to find out information about who has been disciplined and the reasons why. The bill will reverse this so that the practitioner\u2019s name and the reasons they were disciplined will be displayed on the register for three years\u2014kind of like being a member of Parliament; again, Madam Speaker, we\u2019re very much on a register for three years, aren\u2019t we?\u2014and this will improve transparency and help consumers make more informed choices about which practitioner to engage. This is feeling more and more like \u201CDemocracy 101\u201D, but anyway. The bill will help to ensure poor practitioner behaviour will be held to account\u2014again, this is getting uncanny! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EUnlike licensed building practitioners and many other professions, there are currently no codes of ethics for licensed plumbers, gasfitters, and drainlayers, or, for that matter, for licensed electrical workers. This means that they are not bound to standards of behaviour when representing their profession and the sector. This can make it difficult to hold them to account for poor behaviour where the behaviour is not directly related to the work that they have done. This bill aligns these professions with licensed building practitioners by including empowering provisions for codes of ethics to be made for these professions so that poor practitioner behaviour can be held to account by the respective boards. This will reinforce the expectations of professional conduct and competence and will incentivise practitioners to consistently deliver safe, compliant, and high-quality building work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EThe bill will also reduce the administrative burden for licensed building practitioners, whom I shall just refer to now as LBPs. The Building Act requires LBPs to renew their licence every year. However, they need to complete skills maintenance only every two years. The bill will move the frequency that a licensed building practitioner must renew their licence from the Building Act into the Licensed Building Practitioner Rules. This will allow for greater flexibility to enable their renewal period to be aligned with skills maintenance in order to reduce the administrative burden for both the practitioner and the board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EThe bill will also promote consistent complaints processes across licensing regimes, giving practitioners clearer obligations, and consumers a more predictable way to hold them to account. These changes will provide greater consistency for consumers when interacting with these professions and systems, not just for the behaviour they can expect from the professionals they hire but the processes and experiences they have when filing a complaint against a practitioner should something go wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EFinally, the bill will have a staged commencement. Most of the bill will commence on the day after the Royal assent of the bill. However, some changes to the LBP regime will commence through Order in Council. This is because they rely on changes to the LBP rules being passed by the Act. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u00220c100dca2ff54168a29faffdd2dae0d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c100dca2ff54168a29faffdd2dae0d8\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022 data-id=\u002204afe8d516934b5bb99f7423785bb808\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204afe8d516934b5bb99f7423785bb808\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Labour supports this bill at this stage and I\u2019m going to run through why that is, and also run through the questions that we will seek to explore at the select committee stage and with stakeholders, who are very engaged in this bill. It\u2019s important to understand that many of the people working in the sector have been engaging with the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment and other Government agencies on these changes since 2021. A programme of work around the Building Systems Legislative Reform Programme, as it was known then, had five key pillars. They were about building products; occupational regulation\u2014this issue\u2014risk and liability; the building levy, and, particularly, what it pays for; and offences and penalties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EThis bill acknowledges much of that work and seeks to implement some of that, but it\u2019s part of a package of reforms, which means that it is important to make sure that each part has a sensible impact on the other parts. That is why we are going to make sure that those stakeholders who are most engaged in this\u2014particularly the people working in the sector\u2014are able to comply with the new requirements expected of them and that they are getting what they think they have signed up for in a building system which is more efficient because of these measures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EI want to draw members\u2019 attention to the legislative statement because there are some big claims being made for these stakeholders, particularly the claim that the bill ensures that consumers can hold tradespeople to account if things go wrong. That is critically important in our building system, and it is not something that many consumers\u2014particularly mums and dads who are building homes and trying to do that affordably and efficiently\u2014can do at the moment. It is critically important that we improve that for people, and, as electorate MPs, I\u2019m sure many of us have been approached by constituents when things have gone wrong or when they haven\u2019t been able to access the complaints processes or the insurances that they thought they had bought and paid for. It\u2019s important that we ensure that those consumers are getting a fair go in this, and this kind of improvement to the occupational licensing regime is critical to doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003ETo draw members\u2019 attention, as well, to where this fits in with that bigger programme of work, the difference from what was consulted on in 2021 is relevant here. The strengthening occupational regulation regime at that time was about supporting licensed building practitioners to do things faster and quicker. Some of these changes here come from that initiative, and those are a good thing and we support those. The supervision endorsements are something that we will be asking questions around about why those aren\u2019t being progressed in this, because those are important, particularly around some of those higher-risk trades, like, say, internal waterproofing, that were initially included in that programme of work. Instead, we\u2019re seeing a focus here from the Government on a self-certification regime at the lower end of risk whereas you could also very helpfully for consumers advance their interests by improving the situation for higher-risk works, which doesn\u2019t appear to be the focus here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EThe industry was consulted on ensuring that non-licensed people aren\u2019t carrying out the higher-risk work unsupervised. That\u2019s important, and there\u2019s an important sort of complaints aspect to that, as well. It\u2019s important that we\u2019re capturing that kind of work for consumers and that consumers understand how to raise issues around that. The penalties are high, but that relies on having proper auditing and proper accounting for the work going on. If we don\u2019t have well-resourced councils and well-resourced regulators, then we can\u2019t say to consumers that that is going to be a part of what the Government says on the tin, which is that they will ensure that consumers can hold tradespeople to account if things go wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EThe third thing here is around improving consumers\u2019 access to products that spread their risk. Either that\u2019s insurance or it\u2019s something that they pay for in their rates because their council is looking over it, or it\u2019s something that they pay for with their tax dollars because they have a regulator that is tooled up to be able to do this work. It is not fair if consumers are asked to bear extra costs associated with these changes. It is certainly not the intention of the Labour Party to support something like that, and we will be asking questions around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EIn the last 40 seconds, I want to draw the House\u2019s attention to the Attorney-General\u2019s vet of this bill. It\u2019s important to me as well that we make sure that the new investigative processes and information-gathering powers are fair and that the new ability to enter into properties to be investigating is something that is well understood within the industry and it doesn\u2019t penalise the smaller players at the expense of the big ones. We want to make sure that in New Zealand\u2019s building industry, where we back our builders, back our one-man bands, and back our people out there who are doing the job, they aren\u2019t unfairly disadvantaged at the expense of the larger players because of some of these new provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe93907609744f968510d6f44b7003cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe93907609744f968510d6f44b7003cd\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. This morning, I was on a moderating panel at the International Conference on Urban Health. I don\u2019t know if any of the Government members are going to be attending any part of that, but it\u2019s being held for three days at the T\u0101kina Centre, here in Wellington, and there are experts from all over the world. Some of the other speakers on the panel with me are absolute experts in the built environment, and two particularly specialised in housing, and they were all making the same point, which is that with all the research they do\u2014and these are academics who do research in the real world. They work with local government, central government, and the private sector, and they look at the outcomes from different things. They\u2019re saying that one of the key determinants of health and a whole bunch of other things is housing and our buildings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EFor most people, 90 percent of our time these days is spent indoors, and the quality of the ventilation of the building has a direct impact on people\u2019s health. It\u2019s no mystery to New Zealanders that we have a problem with childhood asthma and we have a problem with cold, mouldy, damp, expensive-to-heat homes. This puts strain on our health system and this affects productivity, and there are all these ways in which improving our building sector can help the entire country, which is why we should be doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EThis bill is the first of two bills\u2014obviously, the second bill will be debated directly after this\u2014and this bill the Green Party can support because it\u2019s aiming to ensure that licensed professionals in the building and construction sector can be appropriately held to account through complaints and disciplinary processes that are effective. It\u2019s strengthening the occupational licensing regime, and I think that\u2019s a good thing. It\u2019s far from everything that\u2019s needed to improve our building sector, and I am a little bit concerned that right now, when everyone has such a focus on bringing down the cost of building, we\u2019re not focusing on also lifting the performance of our buildings, because those buildings last for decades. People spend a lot of time in them, and if they\u2019re not built well, they will cost us more in the long run, both in direct costs in terms of heating or cooling but also in costs to society in terms of emergency admissions and long-term chronic health problems which mean that people can\u2019t work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EIt just makes so much sense for New Zealand to improve its building sector, and we have to look at whole-of-life costs. The answer is not getting rid of all regulation; in fact, it\u2019s quite the opposite: it\u2019s having smarter, better regulations that are well enforced, and we need to properly resource the people who are doing the vetting, doing the training, and doing inspections. One of the things that was brought up on the panel\u2014and this was from an American context\u2014was how it\u2019s not enough to regulate the quality of the build; we need to have ongoing performance requirements around buildings as they\u2019re being used\u2014for example, a warrant of fitness for rental properties, which is something that I know my colleague Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick is very passionate about and has proposed members\u2019 bills on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EWe can have a system that ensures that after the building is built, we\u2019re checking and making sure that it has a healthy indoor air temperature, that it doesn\u2019t cost a fortune to achieve that, and that it\u2019s not damp and mouldy. We can make sure that there aren\u2019t unhealthy products being used in those buildings, because we are going to find out that there are a bunch of products that are really, really problematic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5d44f2611474948a07d9d01cb119ac7\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Wool.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f374a1bed8854d41bdda8a924ea184e7\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: Microplastics\u2014oh yes, wool. Wool, yes, and the Green Party absolutely supports wool and we support cross-laminated timber. We support using natural, sustainable products that are produced here in New Zealand, and we can do that\u2014we absolutely can do that. That\u2019s an area where we could find cross-party support, potentially. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EThis bill, in and of itself, I think is a good step. The next bill we don\u2019t feel so confident about because it is expanding the ability of builders and plumbers and others to self-certify their work, and I think\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225159a345ac8d4050895033f3e773856b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ll just deal with this bill at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d476680b09a74800ba885e78593de8eb\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. I think better regulations that actually measure the performance of the buildings and the things that we need to know are something where if we have that data, it should be possible to do. The Green Party would love to work with the Government on that because it will actually help improve productivity and health in our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002281a465eb20294645bc63efa635c80cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022add48fa47c654ad680c2ec6ee3fdc73f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281a465eb20294645bc63efa635c80cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022add48fa47c654ad680c2ec6ee3fdc73f\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Look, I rise as one of those LBPs\u2014those licensed building practitioners\u2014who are out there doing the hard mahi on sites around the country, building these houses. The thing that is driving us mental in the construction industry is the untenable delays that we face in waiting for inspections and waiting for things that building professionals\u2014because the people who build our houses in New Zealand are professionals\u2014know how to do. If we are going to be trusting our building professionals, they need to be held to a high account of themselves and of their industry, and that\u2019s what this bill does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281a465eb20294645bc63efa635c80cbf\u0022\u003EThe code of ethics that already exists, I\u2019ve had my quibbles with. It\u2019s got great things in there like saying to take responsibility for your actions and explain risk to the client. However, I\u2019m not sure about whether a code of ethics can really figure out whether you\u2019ve priced work fairly, whether you\u2019ve acknowledged and respected cultural norms, and other such unmeasurables. If it\u2019s going to be subjective, then it shouldn\u2019t be in a code of ethics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281a465eb20294645bc63efa635c80cbf\u0022\u003EThe building professionals in our country want to be held to a higher standard, they want their industry held to a higher standard, and they want the respect that comes with the hard work and diligence that has been acquired over years of gaining a skill, and if someone is taking the mickey, the registrar needs to be able to deal with that. People who are impersonating LBPs need to be held to account. Something that I have seen in the industry is people using LBP numbers. That\u2019s got to stop. LBPs have to be held to a high standard, and that\u2019s what this bill will do. I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022 data-id=\u002248cb8995928f441aaf84ffb20acca285\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248cb8995928f441aaf84ffb20acca285\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Look, I want us to consider what it is that we want out of our building system. The first one of those things is we want quality outcomes. That, actually, is the most important thing of all\u2014that we have warm, dry homes that are also durable\u2014and that\u2019s one of the challenges we have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022212cf7474b304d86a379dbfeb693d855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228860f0149dd74543bfc3ed04a0aa0df2\u0022\u003EHon Mark Patterson\u003C/span\u003E: Wool. Wool, Andy\u2014wool.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c00fdfb0dde47bfb93ef6386d384980\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, my colleague the Hon Mark Patterson is talking about wool, and he\u2019s absolutely right that it\u2019s a very fine product to use in these buildings. We want quality outcomes that people can rely on because, of course, for most people, the home is the most important investment and the biggest investment they will ever make, and they need to have some surety that what they buy is going to be a quality product.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThe second thing is that we also want to have a quick, efficient, reliable system that gets the consenting processes done in a reasonable way, and, of course, it\u2019s always good to speak on building issues after our resident builder\u2014Cameron Luxton\u2014because what you hear time and time again is that the consenting process as it is at the moment is really frustrating people. If you\u2019ve got to wait for two or three or four days, or however many days it might be, to get an inspection at different stages of a building, that costs real money. It\u2019s not just the cost of the consenting but it\u2019s the cost of the delay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThis is all about streamlining delivery processes. We should be able to expect, as we do everywhere else in life, that what is provided by a person who provides you with a service\u2014to look at it in terms of consumer guarantees\u2014is fit for purpose, and that\u2019s really what this is about. It\u2019s saying that when we have somebody who is a licensed plumber, gasfitter, drain layer, or electrician, they know what they\u2019re doing, they\u2019re suitably qualified, and they deliver the product that they are supposed to deliver, and I\u2019m sure the vast majority do exactly that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EWhat this also does is it says that if there is something wrong with something that somebody does, instead of going to the council, in this particular situation\u2014and, of course, for councils, it\u2019s a bit of a nightmare anyway. When I was on the Wellington City Council, we were on the verge of handing back our warrant, or at least that\u2019s what I wanted us to do because it was just a liability. It\u2019s much better that the liabilities and the responsibilities lie with the people who are actually delivering the product and that they\u2019re doing it well. This bill streamlines the disciplinary procedures and gives more powers to the board that governs those things, and if you\u2019ve got your name there and you\u2019re registered, that means a lot more than if you\u2019ve been deregistered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThe other thing we need to make sure of as we go through this process is that we don\u2019t have these phoenix arrangements allowing people to get around them. In other words, it is you individually\u2014not you, Madam Speaker, but it is the individual who is performing the service who is responsible, and not their 2016 version or their 2017 version or their 2018 version. It is that person, and that person alone, who is responsible for that and who is held accountable for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EJust to finish up, what we want is a really good process for holding practitioners to account for delivering a quality product and to hold them to account when something goes wrong. I am very much looking forward to considering this in front of the select committee. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9d05520b4d64a6680cc001970cc1ca3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9d05520b4d64a6680cc001970cc1ca3\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E This is one of two bills that we\u2019re discussing in the name of Minister Chris Penk, and I just want to begin by acknowledging him and the work that he\u2019s doing to make our building and construction sector highly productive so that it produces high quality when building homes right across this country. This bill, as the previous speaker, Andy Foster, alluded to, is all about efficient processes for those in the sector. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222c01400a9cbf474c88d6fed00e84afcc\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8453575dfeb4723a3226b18a04d2d3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c01400a9cbf474c88d6fed00e84afcc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8453575dfeb4723a3226b18a04d2d3a\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to take a call on the Building and Construction Sector (Strengthening Occupational Licensing Regimes) Amendment Bill. Now, we know that New Zealand needs more warm, dry, and safe homes, and I don\u2019t think there would be anyone in the House who would disagree with that statement. How do we go about it? We all have different approaches. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c01400a9cbf474c88d6fed00e84afcc\u0022\u003EThis is an interesting bill, and Labour is supporting the bill, but, first and foremost, I think we need to keep front of mind the need to protect consumers\u2014those people who we are building these houses for. We know that we need stronger, clearer licensing systems that can improve efficiency across the building sector, and that will give strength and consumer confidence, the kind of consumer confidence that we know we need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c01400a9cbf474c88d6fed00e84afcc\u0022\u003ENow, we\u2019ve always talked in the Labour Party about New Zealanders deserving\u2014as I said at the top of my contribution\u2014affordable, warm, dry homes that are built to last. These need to be good quality homes. They need to be well built, and having stronger licensing will help to lift that quality, but we also have to make sure that it\u2019s fair, that it\u2019s proportionate, and that it genuinely improves the safety of those homes. This bill does aim to introduce broader investigative and disciplinary tools, and so we need to make sure that those are transparent, that they\u2019re balanced, and that they\u2019re not punitive for smaller operators. Again, that\u2019s a role that the select committee needs to pay particular attention to, particularly through the lens of how this bill can be improved to ensure stronger protections for the consumers and, ultimately, for the people who are going to live in those homes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c01400a9cbf474c88d6fed00e84afcc\u0022\u003ENow, the other thing that this bill sets out to do\u2014and it\u2019s great to have heard in contributions this afternoon from a member across the way who has been a licensed building practitioner: Cameron Luxton from the ACT Party. The bill needs to support competent tradespeople, and absolutely that\u2019s a focus that the select committee needs to give in progressing this bill: how can it support competent tradespeople? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c01400a9cbf474c88d6fed00e84afcc\u0022\u003EOne of the specific considerations that I think should be given ample time to and on which submissions should be sought is how best we can integrate some of the new technology and technological innovations that can make that process for tradespeople so much better and can speed up what have been some of the traditional administrative and bureaucratic hurdles\u2014speed bumps, if you will\u2014that often interrupt what should be and would be a much more efficient, much more affordable process if there was less administrative load, less burden, and less waiting time for builders and licensed building practitioners and tradespeople during the construction of new homes. Making sure that those technological advancements are investigated fully and prioritised through the development of this bill would ensure that some of the many frustrations that our very talented and very clever workforce face as they go about building the homes that we know New Zealand needs could be eliminated through the use of this new technology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c01400a9cbf474c88d6fed00e84afcc\u0022\u003ENow, the other thing that we need to ensure in progressing this bill and which we do support is that we don\u2019t shift the risk down the chain. When we look at protecting and supporting competent tradespeople, we also need to make sure that we\u2019re not doing that at the expense of short-changing, ultimately, the people who end up owning or living in these homes. Again, another focus for the select committee would be to make it a very clear priority to ensure that we don\u2019t simply shift the risk on to, ultimately, the occupier of the home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c01400a9cbf474c88d6fed00e84afcc\u0022\u003EThe bill has three aims, with the first being to protect consumers, the second being to support competent tradespeople, and the third being strong consideration not to shift the risk down the chain but to instead lift the quality of the homes, which need to be warm, dry, and safe for all New Zealanders. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df23ed9a7102406f9899558fb3841582\u0022 data-id=\u00228621aa571952416da8f324e4a355c4d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df23ed9a7102406f9899558fb3841582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228621aa571952416da8f324e4a355c4d2\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E Licensed building professionals in the building and construction sector are doing a fantastic job to ensure the quality of our homes, and this bill strengthens the system that supports their work. This bill will make it easier and more affordable to deliver the new homes that New Zealanders need, while putting stronger checks in place to guard against shoddy work. It lifts accountability across the sector and gives customers a clear, reliable path forward if things go wrong. This is about having safer homes, higher standards, and greater confidence for everyone. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8e2b8dbc97a4daaa5de4bf941357a27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8e2b8dbc97a4daaa5de4bf941357a27\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. This is the second bill in a row that\u2019s going to the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, so we shouldn\u2019t have been so complimentary about what a collegial committee it is, because it seems to have no end. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003ELabour will be supporting this bill, and, as almost everybody has said already, I think that all New Zealanders can take pride in the fact that we have a workforce of tradespeople and professionals who pride themselves on building well and providing quality products. But we can\u2019t take that for granted, and we do need to provide frameworks and make sure that in this House we give them the tools that they need to ensure that the final product\u2014not just for the consumer but for the industry as a whole\u2014is kept safe and is kept efficient and actually amounts to the types of homes that we value and that we want people living in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ll support this bill because clearer licensing systems, we believe, can improve efficiencies across the building sector and can certainly strengthen consumer confidence, which is incredibly, incredibly important. For many people in this House, you wouldn\u2019t have to go back too many years to remember examples when that has gone wrong and there have been large-scale disasters in this sector, and so we need to make sure that we\u2019re on our toes. Electrical workers, plumbers, gasfitters, and drainlayers just by definition operate in high-risk environments, and so having clear, competent standards and clear, consistent enforcement regimes, and modernised complaint systems, are, I think, essential, and that doesn\u2019t feel like too much to ask for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EAs my colleague Reuben Davidson has just said, on this side of the House, and certainly within the Labour Party, we\u2019ve always had at our core a fundamental belief that New Zealanders fundamentally deserve homes that are warm, dry, and safe to live in, and therefore stronger licensing that can help lift that quality and do anything towards making that achievable is worthwhile, but only if it\u2019s fair, if it\u2019s proportionate, and if it genuinely improves safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EThe bill introduces broad investigative and disciplinary tools, and, as well as those tools being fair and transparent and with the normal caveats that we put around those things, it is important that they\u2019re not overly or particularly punitive, particularly for small operators. I\u2019m sure that the select committee will ask those appropriate questions and will play a critical role in testing whether the powers that are inherent in this piece of potential legislation actually do protect the public without creating a whole host of unnecessary burdens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EThe new levies and compliance costs: as has been said, we do have to be vigilant that it doesn\u2019t just end up being someone else\u2019s problem. I think that the Government, to date, hasn\u2019t really provided sufficient information or sufficient analysis on that affordability and whether there\u2019s potential for those flow-on effects, and so I will also be interested in hearing more about that at select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EUltimately, stronger licensing works only when regulators and the people tasked with keeping on top of how that\u2019s working are actually resourced properly to do that job. They need to be able to act on those complaints and they need to be able to not just do things retrospectively after something has gone wrong but also be really active in supporting the people who work in this sector to make sure that they\u2019re able to comply and monitor those competencies. Again, we will be keeping a close eye on making sure that the requisite information that makes that material and useful comes through the select committee process and affords us a little bit more confidence. It does need to be a robust select committee process, with\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244c7d309f6a242c2ba5ed32b4d601527\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Not four months and one day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293148ddc15e94de79d7d90b0d86abf23\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014not four months and one day, as my colleague Tangi Utikere is noting, which has been a common thread going through this House at the moment. It kind of makes a little bit of a mockery of the select committee process if a select committee doesn\u2019t have sufficient time or if there\u2019s some sort of pressure from a Minister to report back on a particular day, and we\u2019ll hear later on in the rest of today\u2019s session, I\u2019m sure, some examples of how that\u2019s happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EWe wouldn\u2019t want that to happen to this bill. We\u2019re up for a decent, robust process that is in itself clear and transparent so that we can assess that this bill provides the clarity and the transparency required. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa24f2d6c6e647afbbe978b56c3b0edf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa24f2d6c6e647afbbe978b56c3b0edf\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E Our Government is committed to building infrastructure and building homes fast, efficiently, and well. We back our builders and we want to see a high standard of building, and this bill increases both accountability and quality, which is what we want to see. We want to build warm, affordable, dry homes, and, wow, have we got a pipeline of homes in Hawke\u2019s Bay. I would just like to acknowledge our amazing building Minister, who visited Hawke\u2019s Bay recently and who is in charge of these reforms, which are going to achieve a higher standard in building but also get fast, efficient homes built. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022860a90ffe674431a801a85514674b333\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022860a90ffe674431a801a85514674b333\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Building and Construction Sector (Strengthening Occupational Licensing Regimes) Amendment Bill be considered by the Transport and Infrastructure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Transport and Infrastructure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c1c0bc32cedc4558a1bce5a338cae315\u0022\u003EInstruction to the Transport and Infrastructure Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022 data-id=\u0022316c01c702334074af32a8b2c01f5b5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022316c01c702334074af32a8b2c01f5b5d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Building and Construction Sector (Self-certification by Plumbers and Drainlayers) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243d5c922f9634db0875c36a8d28e22c7\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: No, you don\u2019t\u2014not just yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229774b6bcfaa1429dabcb26d5012a3726\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I move that the bill be referred to the Transport and Infrastructure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272f83dd8997746a3b5ae76d8512f15ce\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: No, third time lucky\u2014the report-back date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccb50b25030447cb968e97250058adbc\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m out!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243f309fae16342f8a790af5c1c0afa5b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Do you have a report-back date?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e921c5cdd8b449dab7d393aeddd3925\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the bill be reported back to the House four months and one day from today\u2019s date. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1dac9c2ee2e474aa37aa2f4636dd6d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1dac9c2ee2e474aa37aa2f4636dd6d8\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Which would be\u2014I think on my reckoning it would be 19 March 2026.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f0b3d3c567b1422983751fdb7d24e919\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227271dd7c8d124f1ca07cbc86c445aa60\u0022\u003EBuilding and Construction Sector (Self-certification by Plumbers and Drainlayers) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fbd138b875af4a3a993a7bfe92da0a1a\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022 data-id=\u0022901600f11f79402fa30acc7b4091d8f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022901600f11f79402fa30acc7b4091d8f9\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E I, again, present a legislative statement on the Building and Construction Sector (Self-certification by Plumbers and Drainlayers) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eee7b3e929e54cb882d5ec1eb280cc86\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6d9d73b4820457284d8238582750350\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Building and Construction Sector (Self-certification by Plumbers and Drainlayers) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EI nominate the Transport and Infrastructure Committee to consider the bill. At the appropriate time, I intend to move that the bill be reported to the House by 19 March 2026.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022727972e28a444e21b9fe97f7446f01d0\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Do you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac52be0604214a069c89e2e1710fda2e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: I really do. Further to that, I wish to point out\u2014as others have commented in the context of the bill that Parliament has just considered, and helpfully passed, at least by way of first reading\u2014that this bill forms part of the same reform package to make it easier, faster, and more affordable to build by reducing the burden on building consent authorities, and moving responsibility to construction sector professionals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EThis bill will make substantive changes across two Acts to improve the efficiency of the building consenting system and make better use of regulatory resources. The bill will free up building consent authorities and shift responsibility to professionals, as I have pointed out, and it\u2019s worth starting by noting that the consenting system at the moment can be slow and inefficient, causing delays and increasing the costs to build in New Zealand. Inefficiencies are caused by risk-averse behaviour and lack of capacity for building consent authorities and a system that discourages professionals from taking responsibility for assurance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EThe risk aversion is understandable but nevertheless we need to understand, from a systems point of view, the effect of these incentives and think if there\u2019s a way that we can make it possible for greater responsibility and thereby having greater quality, as well as faster processes. To that end, this bill introduces an opt-in scheme, allowing approved plumbers and drainlayers to self-certify that their work complies with the building consent, without the need for a building consent authority inspection. This will save time and money for professionals and building consent authorities\u2014which I\u2019ll, from here on in, refer to as BCAs; mostly being councils and homeowners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EThe scheme will be integrated into the existing consent system. Plumbing and drainlaying work will still need to be consented as usual but a declaration will be filed that the plumbing or drainlaying work will be self-certified. Inspections will not be carried out, allowing the professionals simply to get on with their work. Once the work is completed, the self-certifier will issue a certificate of compliance which confirms that their work complies with the building consent. BCAs will be required to rely on the certificate as legal assurance when issuing a code compliance certificate at the end of the building process and will be protected from liability for self-certified work. Instead, the responsibility will lie with the professionals doing the work. The scheme will likely apply to the majority of plumbing and drainlaying work in stand-alone residential buildings, meaning that there is a massive opportunity to remove inefficiencies in the consenting system and make it faster and cheaper to build homes in New Zealand. It will also free up BCAs to focus on riskier work that should be inspected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EA key tenet of the legislation is that the bill promotes efficiency without compromising safety. That\u2019s because safeguards will ensure that efficiency gains are balanced against ensuring safety. Only plumbing and drainlaying work that meets the definition in regulations will be able to be self-certified. The bill limits this definition to work that is routine for experienced plumbers and drainlayers and presents a low risk to public safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003ERiskier work will still need to be inspected, providing protection for homeowners. To self-certify, professionals must meet robust standards, demonstrating the necessary skills and experience. These standards will be set by the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board through Gazette notices, and will be based around technical competency, experience, ability to meet their new liabilities, and their administrative practices like quality assurance\u2014or QA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EThese minimum standards will also give consumers confidence that self-certifiers have the right skills to meet their new responsibilities and will protect the public from defective work and the harm it can cause. In practice, I expect that most plumbers and drainlayers who hold the highest licensed class will be eligible to self-certify. Endorsed professionals will be able to self-certify work that they\u2019ve done themselves and work that they have supervised. This reflects the reality that the most experienced plumbers and drainlayers often work in a supervisory role.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EThe bill also introduces new functions for the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Board, which will provide a further level of consumer protection. Certificates of compliance will need to be lodged with the board to be held on a register, parts of which will be publicly accessible so future homeowners, insurers, or other interested parties will be able to see if a property had self-certified work. This will make the scheme more transparent and professionals more accountable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EFailure to lodge a certificate will be a disciplinary offence carrying a maximum fine of $10,000, one of a number of changes to the board\u2019s disciplinary functions. The bill also extends existing offences to cover self-certification, and raises some existing penalties, promoting responsibility and accountability. The bill gives new monitoring powers to the board, including the power to audit certificates of compliance. This will ensure that the work complied with the consent and the building code. Tradespeople who do poor or non-compliant work will be caught and held to account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EThis is our crackdown on cowboys, that we\u2019re fond of talking about, and I say that with all due respect to real cowboys, obviously, and cowgirls. The bill will have a staged commencement, something to celebrate, indeed. Most of the bill will commence on 20\u00A0June 2026, but provisions relating to powers to make secondary legislation, the functions of the board, and other official bodies, and other transitional provisions will commence on the day after Royal assent. This is to provide time for the necessary operational requirements for the scheme to be developed. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022da3cd681c03a44c0bf7534a758a18b4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da3cd681c03a44c0bf7534a758a18b4d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022 data-id=\u0022b99300697168488e8b72f74674fe7849\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b99300697168488e8b72f74674fe7849\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to speak on this, the Building and Construction Sector (Self-certification by Plumbers and Drainlayers) Amendment Bill. This is a good one. This is an exciting one for Labour to be able to support. I\u2019m going to raise some questions with it, but we are looking forward to getting into this with the people who it matters most to: the plumbers who want to make sure that this is sticky legislation, that we get this right, and that we don\u2019t touch the rules again, because we need to make sure that this is something that both the professionals in the sector and the people who rely on it, the consumers, can have faith in for the long term. That\u2019s why this needs to be cross-partisan. I hope we can work together in the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, ably chaired by Andy Foster, to make sure this works. We do have a few reservations, and I\u2019m going to run through them. But, yeah, we\u2019re happy to support this at first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EThe key for the Labour Party is it will be looking for strong consumer protections and robust safeguards throughout the change that professionals will be faced with here, because we share that goal, that everyone wants more cost of safety or quality or the rights of consumers in this process, the mums and dads who are just trying to build a home affordably and cheaply in New Zealand, because cutting costs is good but cutting corners is not. Plumbers and drainlayers already carry quite heavy professional responsibilities, and if we\u2019re shifting, here in this bill, further liability from, say, building consent authorities on to individuals, we must also ensure that these standards are very clear and that there\u2019s access to the appropriate insurance products and proper support for those regulators who are tasked with ensuring that the system is working.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EThe industry, at select committee, will, rightly, ask us \u201CWhy is liability being put on these individuals and not on, say, the businesses themselves?\u201D It\u2019s important that we understand, here, what\u2019s being asked of these professionals who haven\u2019t had this sort of liability before and whether the appropriate person, legal person\u2014in this case, natural person\u2014is being regulated here or whether it\u2019s appropriate for the business to regulate instead. Why is it that businesses aren\u2019t being regulated under this? Well, simply, Madam Speaker, I would suggest to you that it\u2019s because the programme of work that the Government has long advertised around phoenix companies and around companies in the building and construction sector going under or going out of business and, then, popping up perhaps the next day, perhaps six months later in a new corporate form is a practice that we must stamp out because it really impacts on those consumers, but that hasn\u2019t been done yet and it does not look like the Government will progress that. That\u2019s a problem if you then have the little guy, the new plumber, done his apprenticeship, got his qualifications, now suddenly faced with liability for his large employer that he would reasonably expect was being managed within a corporate setting and a corporate structure. That doesn\u2019t seem right or fair, to me, to the little guy here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EWe also want to think about when councils reduce oversight, consumers must still have sensible and simple and reliable pathways to get defects fixed. The natural policy response to this would be insurance\u2014either a compulsory insurance scheme, or a State-backed insurance scheme; schemes, like the ones that Australian consumers have enjoyed for many years, they work pretty well in their markets, there is a range of them to choose from, from the big gold-plated consumer-friendly scheme in Queensland, to the slim-lined schemes in, say, New South Wales. We have none of that and yet we are building a policy response as if there is an insurance product in the market that does not exist already, and so we need to make sure that that risk spreading is going to be able to happen for also these companies\u2014you know, when we think about the little guy, we need to make sure that he\u2019s got access to something that will help him when things go wrong for him, as well as the consumer who he\u2019s working for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EThe only other question I\u2019d add in my last minute is to make it clear that we should be thinking about the scope of this work. You know, when I think of, say, the corner bakeries in the electorate of Manurewa\u2014the best bakeries in the country\u2014I think why don\u2019t they also\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224136488cd284430283a3b3702db31e0a\u0022\u003EHon James Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Aww!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b719ea324e54a79ba4395306d77b42e\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the best bakeries in the country, Mr Meager\u2014I think about making sure that they have access to a sensible and quick regime where standard plumbing in their shops can also be covered by what is a quick and efficient regime. We should be asking the questions about who is in scope here, because that would make sense to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EFinally, just on the report-back date: what a grinch this Minister is for not letting the plumbers, the hard-working New Zealanders who want to have a say on this, not submit in the full time frame. They\u2019re being forced to over Christmas. \u201CWe want our plumbers out plumbing. Go fix up some kitchens. Go work hard, as you are doing. Don\u2019t have to come back to select committee.\u201D But, unfortunately, that is what they are being faced with here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022 data-id=\u0022cad30a4bbdc4435d96d96908ede1bb64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cad30a4bbdc4435d96d96908ede1bb64\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. As I outlined in my earlier speech, the Green Party is not supporting this bill at first reading. We absolutely understand what it\u2019s aiming to achieve, but the truth is that New Zealand is lagging so far behind other developed countries in terms of having a level of accountability and oversight over building and construction work that we need to do a whole lot of other things before we start reducing oversight and accountability of our professionals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EI mean, it\u2019s very difficult to trust this Government when so many of the steps that they have taken are actively making things worse for consumers, for residents, and for citizens. When I think of just some of the recent changes they\u2019ve made, they can\u2019t seem to differentiate between good, effective Government regulation that lifts productivity and protects people\u2014that\u2019s the purpose of Government. It\u2019s to protect and empower people, and when we don\u2019t have those systems in place, people get screwed over. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EI was talking to a constituent in my electorate not that long ago who had really just wanted to tell me about the experience that he had had with purchasing his first home at the top of the market. He was going to do some basic works which he\u2019d planned on and had budgeted for, and he was finding out that there was a whole lot of very serious structural problems with the building, which was only about 20 years old, and these were due to deficiencies in our building techniques. He has no one to go to. The people who did the building work are long gone, and there\u2019s like no record or accountability of it. He\u2019s got a very large mortgage, and his interest rates had gone up because he happened to buy at the top of the market. He\u2019s a young person, trying to get his first home\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022264f449c579f4827b86d91cbc3c3ad29\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Thanks, National. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a525e16f366a4a06af447fea8cbc6062\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and not\u2014yeah, so I wouldn\u2019t say \u201CThanks, National.\u201D, because the guy is in serious financial difficulties now because he found out that the building had serious problems with it, which now he has to send a whole lot of money to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212fd037a8544418390244b7c3a65216e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9dde790838c4b9093c13434fcbf7d0d\u0022\u003EDr Hamish Campbell\u003C/span\u003E: Did he get a building inspection done? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214dd8c1bdd09402a838f582ce75ee15a\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, he did get a building inspection done. But when it was the top of the market, he was under a lot of pressure because it\u2019s a sellers\u2019 market, and so the people who are trying to buy start lowering their standards and have less money to get the work done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EThis is the whole problem\u2014it\u2019s like that\u2019s the point. What this Government doesn\u2019t understand is that the Government is here to protect and empower people, and we work together to do that. That\u2019s what a democracy is for, and we do it because it works\u2014we\u2019re all better off when we work together to get better outcomes. But for several decades, we\u2019ve had a race to the bottom in New Zealand of successive Governments who have cut really important rules, regulations, and investment and funding to different parts of the public system, which has led to the leaky building crisis, and that cost local councils billions of dollars. I mean, it was hugely costly to enable those changes and reduce oversight, and, at the time, Treasury was just like \u201COh, they\u2019ll sort it out in the courts.\u201D Well, actually, that\u2019s a very theoretical position, because when people can wind up their business, declare bankruptcy, and then pop up somewhere else and not be held to account, that\u2019s a problem, and, ultimately, it is the public that picks up the cost, one way or the other. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003ELook, I\u2019m all for better regulation. In my observation in both the building sector and urban planning, there are a whole lot of regulations that are doing the exact opposite of what we need them to do, but just getting rid of that and trying to speed up or simplify the process without actually lifting performance and accountability and without investing in oversight means that there\u2019s a real chance of there being problems down the road that will end up costing us all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EI think there are very good and clear reasons to not support this bill at first reading. We will see what the select committee process turns up, but with the fast-track process and with the changes to the Clean Car Standards\u2014which are going to be rushed through in urgency later this week\u2014it\u2019s a perfect example of the Government doing what\u2019s good for business or for corporates when that\u2019s actually bad for the country. It\u2019s bad for consumers, it\u2019s bad for households, it\u2019s going to cost us more in the long run, and it\u2019s bad for the environment, because they don\u2019t care\u2014they clearly don\u2019t care. I mean, they\u2019ve made it very clear that they don\u2019t care, at all. If it\u2019s good for the donors, if it\u2019s good for the big lobbyists, and if it\u2019s good for the overseas interests, they\u2019re all for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002281a465eb20294645bc63efa635c80cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022783a9d04bf244e9a88e4bdc65510c016\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281a465eb20294645bc63efa635c80cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022783a9d04bf244e9a88e4bdc65510c016\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise once again as a licensed building practitioner (LBP) speaking on a bill that addresses real issues in the construction sector. Currently, if a sparkie or a gas fitter wants to sign off some work and say, \u201CHey, it\u2019s behind a wall. I don\u2019t want to hold up the progress of this building. It\u2019s perfectly sound, I can certify it myself.\u201D, that\u2019s allowed, but a plumber running pipes or a drainlayer running drains cannot do the same thing. It makes no sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281a465eb20294645bc63efa635c80cbf\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve been on building sites where there have been massive holes in the ground waiting\u2014waiting for someone in a high-vis from the council to turn up and tell us \u201CDon\u2019t worry. You can fill in that perfectly good hole. I\u2019ve only been\u201D\u2014this is an inspector speaking\u2014\u201Cin the industry two years, but you, you 30-year veteran of the drainlaying profession, you cannot be trusted to make sure that your pipes aren\u2019t going into the sumps, into the septics, and into the soap pits that you have been doing for decades.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281a465eb20294645bc63efa635c80cbf\u0022\u003EThis is addressing a real problem that holds up sites. It\u2019s not a huge thing, but it\u2019s a greatly important thing. Along with allowing a new LBP scheme to do with internal waterproofing\u2014that\u2019ll deal with the waterproofing issues that might come up from allowing people to assess their work. But with drains and pipes, this is not complicated stuff. These professionals know what they\u2019re doing when they\u2019ve been trained; they can do it, they\u2019re licensed. Let them at it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022 data-id=\u00226ec22f3459ef4c0684da9f38bbba731f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ec22f3459ef4c0684da9f38bbba731f\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Look, as I said in the previous debate, the most important thing that we want out of our building system is that we get good outcomes for the people that end up with the end product: the houses, the homes that people live in. This bill, though, is about trust. It\u2019s about trust in the competence\u2014the trust in the competence\u2014of our professional drainlayers and plumbers, as you\u2019ve just heard from our licensed building practitioner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThis allows professional plumbers and drainlayers to self-certify and to certificate their work, and it brings them in line with other building practitioners. This sets up a regime where the board\u2014the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Board\u2014has the power to endorse plumbers and drainlayers. It doesn\u2019t mean it has to; has the power to, which means that they can say, \u201CWell, look, are these people competent to do the job that they are doing to the level which is required to be done so that they can self-certify?\u201D It doesn\u2019t mean that they will self-certify everybody, because, obviously, when you start doing that, if people are not doing the job properly, it comes back on them as a board, saying \u201CWhat are you doing certifying these people?\u201D So they will do that, I expect, with care and attention to make sure that they are certificating and endorsing the right people to make sure they do the job properly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EAlso, it is about self-certifying certain work, so set by regulation. It doesn\u2019t mean every piece of work; doesn\u2019t mean the really, really complicated pieces which you might have a third party have a look over. It means self-certifying certain work. This also means that the self-certification then relies on\u2014in many areas of construction, we already have these producer statements, which, in fact, often, councils as the building consents authority farm those out\u2014it might be to an engineer or whoever it might be\u2014and says, \u201CIf they\u2019re happy with it, then we\u2019re happy with it.\u201D Effectively, they\u2019re already doing that in so many complicated areas of the business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003ETwo final points to make, because we\u2019ve heard these in the debate already. The point\u2019s been made about making sure that if something goes wrong, there is a process and a way in which the homeowner, the recipient of the end product, can actually get satisfaction from somebody who can put it right. In Wellington, the phrase \u201CIt\u2019s the putting right that counts\u201D will be familiar to many people. That is absolutely essential.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EFinally, I had a lot of sympathy for the point that Arena Williams made about phoenix businesses. We don\u2019t want the situation where people can wind up the business\u2014the 2024 version of a business creates a 2025 version or 2026 version. We want the individual to be responsible for the work that they do, so that if they do it wrong and they don\u2019t put it right, then there is a consequence on them so that I\u2019m sure that they will, as professionals, do the job properly. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022 data-id=\u00224f17379d1ee74539a07115a5518ebc8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f17379d1ee74539a07115a5518ebc8e\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E This is the second bill under the name of Chris Penk, and he\u2019s doing a great job as building and construction Minister. It is all in the name: self-certification for plumbers and drainlayers. What a great bill, and it\u2019s getting bipartisan support in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022\u003EJust to expand on my colleague, that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022634ff5361ef348f38896543eb09a0b6a\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: Apart from the Greens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d1f4f3ec7304c01819991a3afde7be7\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS\u003C/span\u003E: Except the Green Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022\u003EBut to expand on what \u201Cgood\u201D looks like, it\u2019s about an efficient, effective, and low-cost system for consenting. That\u2019s what this bill\u2019s all about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022\u003EI look forward to hearing submitters, hearing from people in the public at the coalface in this industry, and about how this will work in practice. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222c01400a9cbf474c88d6fed00e84afcc\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7ff08a124424c80ac5043468c2fc67e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c01400a9cbf474c88d6fed00e84afcc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7ff08a124424c80ac5043468c2fc67e\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I stand to take a call on the second building and construction bill, this being the self-certification by plumbers and drainlayers amendment bill. We do support this bill but with reservations. As speakers from this side of the House have taken the time to talk about, this bill needs to see robust safeguards and needs to see consumer protections because speed cannot compromise safety, quality, or consumer rights. Another simpler way of putting it is that fast and efficient can\u2019t become quick and dirty, because that\u2019s not what we want in our construction sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c01400a9cbf474c88d6fed00e84afcc\u0022\u003ENow, we\u2019re very proud, on this side of the House in the Labour Party, that we\u2019ve always said that New Zealanders deserve homes that are affordable and that are built to last. When it comes to making sure we can do that affordably and to cutting the costs to do that, that\u2019s all well and good, but it can\u2019t be at the expense of cutting corners. We know that our plumbers and drainlayers\u2014our good tradies\u2014carry very heavy responsibility and liability for the work that they do, so we need to make sure that the standards and the access to the appropriate products are there for those professionals to be able to do the work that they need to do, to be able to do it quickly, but also to have the protections there for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c01400a9cbf474c88d6fed00e84afcc\u0022\u003ENow, I have a story I want to share from an installation that I had at my home where I decided to install gas to have a gas facility in my kitchen for cooking. I brought a professional installer in, and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a8f8ba04dfa44e58127dc12a891c6e1\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: Didn\u2019t you hear about the oil and gas ban?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229a9c205f95fc4f5c8943b440b9f5cb1d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c7fec7f57814b08a091107a46c7c9fc\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: But you cancelled the gas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c01400a9cbf474c88d6fed00e84afcc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dfb131eff054255a98f285cf684ebaa\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: This was some time ago. The professional installer came to my home and installed a gas hob in my kitchen, which worked beautifully. I was able to cook fantastic food and have a perfectly functioning gas hob in my kitchen. But what happened when I went to do the washing up was that I pulled the plug out of the sink, and the sink drained, and all of a sudden across my kitchen floor, there was a puddle of water coming from under the skirting board in the corner of the kitchen. This had never happened before. It was a very puzzling situation for me. Now, what had happened was that the water waste pipe from the sink ran diagonally through the wall at a surprising angle\u2014surprising to the gas installer, who had managed to drill the gas pipe directly through the water waste pipe and safely install gas to run to my hob. What this meant was that I could safely operate my gas hub, and I had an airtight, perfect gas installation, but I had a leaky waste pipe draining the sink under my kitchen bench.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c01400a9cbf474c88d6fed00e84afcc\u0022\u003ENow, luckily, I spotted it pretty quickly, and, luckily, the professional tradesperson took it very seriously and came round and remediated it immediately. But it did make me think: what if it had been the other way round? What if the water pipe had gone through the gas pipe? The result would have been quite different. Now, the point of that story is that we do need to provide very clear protections for our tradespeople but also very, very strong protections for us as consumers in our homes if we are building or carrying out renovations and people are going to be self-certifying their work. We owe it to our tradies to get this right. That is why the support that we bring for this bill does have reservations, because during the select committee process, we need to make sure that the owners or people who will live in homes that will be built under these changed and amended regulations are going to be living in homes that, if they have been self-certified, are safe. But we also need to make sure that, for our tradies\u2014many of whom own their own businesses and are working really hard to make it all balance and make it all work\u2014there are protections in place for them so that they don\u2019t get caught out and get caught short and lose their businesses as a result of carrying this further administrative burden. It is with reservations that we support this bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df23ed9a7102406f9899558fb3841582\u0022 data-id=\u0022af9f3f6770c343d9be64d1ddd1c971b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df23ed9a7102406f9899558fb3841582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af9f3f6770c343d9be64d1ddd1c971b0\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s very simple: if electricians and gas fitters can self-certify their work, then of course our qualified plumbers and drainlayers should be trusted to do the same, as well. This Government is here to back them up. An open self-certification scheme is a stroke of common sense. Less red tape, stronger accountability, and the same high level of safety. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022 data-id=\u002228c5e9137a9247e798c4c766dd7e2100\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228c5e9137a9247e798c4c766dd7e2100\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, for this opportunity to speak on the Building and Construction Sector (Self-certification by Plumbers and Drainlayers) Amendment Bill. I\u2019m happy to tell the House that I don\u2019t know a whole lot about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bd298c5dedb4a6aa672bdedef61a91d\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: Anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274132b4833e844c5ba69c7489b9315a6\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014plumbing and drainlayers. Well, thank you for that interjection. I think it says more about the person making the interjection than myself. But I will say that I\u2019m happy\u2014happy\u2014to say that I don\u2019t know a huge amount about plumbing and drainlaying. This is important because I have had the opportunity to employ plumbers and drainlayers. It\u2019s been important to me to be able to rely on their work and also the certification of their work, so that I know that the house that I live in, that I was lucky to be able to have the privilege to be able to build, is safe. It is important for me as a consumer, and for every other consumer out there who has not studied plumbing and drainlaying. We want to be able to rely on the certification by those that know more about these things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003EI picked up this bill and thought, \u201CI wonder what sorts of jobs will be able to be self-certified by plumbers and drainlayers under this bill.\u201D It turns out it\u2019s not that clear, and that is because of the mechanisms of the bill. I want to go through those, briefly. You\u2019ll see at clause 4 the definitions of what are self-certifiable drainlaying and self-certifiable plumbing. This is the kind of work that is defined in reference to regulations. We don\u2019t see those regulations here and I\u2019m not sure if they exist yet. It\u2019s important to note that the regulations are where those types of work that I don\u2019t know a whole lot about will be defined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003EIt is important to note that there are some thresholds for what might be in those regulations. We see that at clause 45 of the bill, and that is where section 172C is amended to insert section\u00A0172C(1AAA). These are the \u201CRequirements before making certain regulations\u201D. The Minister may only make the recommendations about these regulations if the Minister is satisfied that the plumbing work will be \u201C(a) \u2026 routine work for an experienced drainlayer or plumber;\u201D\u2014so an experienced element is relevant to that threshold. At (b), it \u201Cis not complex drainlaying or plumbing\u201D\u2014I presume that the people who know about these things will be able to discuss what is or what is not complex. At (c), it \u201Cposes a low risk to the health and safety of the public.\u201D I would hope that there the health and safety of the public is also of the consumer or of the person who\u2019s in the house where these plumbing and drainlaying works might be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003EI raise that point because the regulations here are an important part of how this bill will operate. I very much hope that the select committee will spend some time looking at what those regulations may or may not include. I\u2019m assuming that there will be submissions on this particular topic by the people who do know about plumbing and drainlaying. Of course, this bill has to be reported back within four months and one day, I think\u2014so we\u2019re avoiding a debate in the House on when that shortened time frame is. But I do note, like my colleague Arena Williams, that this does mean that the plumbers and drainlayers, the people who know what might be in these regulations and saying what sort of work this bill will apply to, will be making submissions over the Christmas break and that is far from perfect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003EAs you\u2019ve heard, though, Labour is supporting this bill and will look, at the select committee, for strong auditing requirements, mandatory record-keeping, fair and transparent fees and levies, and clear remedies for homeowners when work fails. It is important to note that this is supposed to be part of a package that also includes insurance and liability, and we do need those settings to be right. If they are not right, then it will cost everyone a whole lot more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd3e4d5ae9324fa98b3ba1bc4bb9411a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd3e4d5ae9324fa98b3ba1bc4bb9411a\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022efb17be96adb484290f4dd59b7a5cc5a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022efb17be96adb484290f4dd59b7a5cc5a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Building and Construction Sector (Self-certification by Plumbers and Drainlayers) Amendment Bill be considered by the Transport and Infrastructure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Transport and Infrastructure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221b86452176284078b74c72246d4d1bef\u0022\u003EInstruction to the Transport and Infrastructure Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e9fc35310ee54aab8412a7092f31da92\u0022\u003EInstruction to the Transport and Infrastructure Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e263b1088b7e46b5835bcf821c061b16\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e263b1088b7e46b5835bcf821c061b16\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Minister for Hunting and Fishing)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for Building and Construction: I move, That the Building and Construction Sector (Self-certification by Plumbers and Drainlayers) Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 19 March 2026.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ed89dc075b674adf94a1c150ccf97df1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220f2a84e0e1b04dc3b3b9a62623c3bb3f\u0022\u003EOverseas Investment (National Interest Test and Other Matters) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229017a8adf86f498ab49144aea49ee3fc\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9f736a68e574ef683cfda07d036e23f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9f736a68e574ef683cfda07d036e23f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Overseas Investment (National Interest Test and Other Matters) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aeecfbe51e874782825e41222762d46d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b00175fee9a451e86e78c73dc95871f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Overseas Investment (National Interest Test and Other Matters) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EThere is a view of the world that people across the seas are somehow bad or venal or out to get us, and that we should put up barriers and try to keep them out, that when they try to invest in New Zealand with their ideas and their capital, they are out to get something and must be regarded with suspicion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EThere is another view, which is that when our friends around the world choose to bring their ideas and their money to our country and make voluntary agreements with people who own property here\u2014whether they be New Zealanders or other overseas investors\u2014that trading of value for value makes us stronger together. That when you see people from overseas who have a better way of doing things, or a different way of doing things, investing in a business and bringing those ideas, we\u2019re all better off. People can be paid more, people can have more interesting jobs, and we can export more interesting and valuable products overseas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a great movie, from my youth in the 1990s, that summed it up: it is the circle of life. That\u2019s why I\u2019m very proud to be commending this amendment to the Overseas Investment Act, because it carries on the work that we have done to ensure New Zealand is a place that welcomes investment from across the seas. It\u2019s actually the entire history of our country to do this. The history of our country is a history of foreign investment. There was no foreign capital in New Zealand, once upon a time. Then, Kupe showed up with a waka hourua and a few kunekune pigs, and New Zealanders have been importing capital into our country ever since\u2014and we\u2019ve been all the wealthier for it. That\u2019s why, so far, this Government has halved the time it takes to get a consent on overseas investments into this country\u2014we\u2019re very proud of it. That\u2019s why we\u2019re bringing this bill to the House, which will ensure there is a revised purpose statement for the Overseas Investment Act that acknowledges the benefits of investment in New Zealand. We\u2019ve never done that in our legislation before\u2014it\u2019s well-past due.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EWe will introduce a new national interest test. That, for most consents, will mean that people will be able to get a consent within 15 working days\u2014within three weeks. All this, while maintaining the breadth of what the Overseas Investment Office screens, and intensifying the focus on overseas investment\u2014some of which really is a threat to our way of life, and that means a focus on national security and public order. That is, in short, what this bill does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EIt is a vote of confidence in New Zealand when people send their money and their ideas here. It\u2019s when they take it out that you should be worried. Just ask most South American countries what that experience is like when the politics goes wrong\u2014I\u2019m looking at the Green members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EI would like to thank the Finance and Expenditure Committee for its consideration of this bill\u2014including considering 3,504 submissions\u2014and for making a series of mainly technical amendments that improve the bill. I look forward to the later stages in committee and the third reading of this bill, should it proceed that far, so that it can make New Zealand a place that stands confidently and proudly in the world, welcoming business from our friends and allies\u2014not afraid, ashamed, or repelling it, but rejoicing in stronger connections that allow all of us to trade value for value and grow stronger, wealthier, and more interesting together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u002269450e67e9014fa1aff72fdf48546a16\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269450e67e9014fa1aff72fdf48546a16\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225dec06e8b9d847bdbf5a51cad169ca1b\u0022 data-id=\u0022af8ceeca38414aa8b2b01b36c9a56f0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225dec06e8b9d847bdbf5a51cad169ca1b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af8ceeca38414aa8b2b01b36c9a56f0a\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to take a call on this, the second reading of the Overseas Investment (National Interest Test and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. I too, like the Minister, want to acknowledge the Finance and Expenditure Committee for their thorough review of this particular bill, and also to the numerous officials from Government agencies, namely the Treasury and Land Information New Zealand, who supported the select committee during this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225dec06e8b9d847bdbf5a51cad169ca1b\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to take quite a methodical step through a number of the submissions, as well as some of the changes and the reasoning for there being some changes which were not agreed to by majority in the select committee. I think that\u2019s incredibly important because, for a number of members in this House who are lawyers, if you\u2019ve ever worked on a litigation case, you know how important it is to do due diligence and look at the Hansard in relation to what Parliament\u2019s intention was when passing legislation. I\u2019ve had to do it a number of times in my career and it has been so valuable to go back through the Hansard to understand Parliament\u2019s intention. I want to go through Parliament\u2019s intention today in relation to some of the changes in this bill and the submissions and the reasons why, by majority, the Government members did not accept them, but also some of the reasoning, which is in the actual officials\u2019 advice, because I think it will be helpful for the litigation cases that are coming in the future in relation to this specific piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225dec06e8b9d847bdbf5a51cad169ca1b\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge the Minister\u2019s acknowledgment of the number of submitters who submitted on this bill. The committee received 3,504 written submissions in total\u20143,450 of those submissions were from individuals and 54 were from organisations. I do want to acknowledge our officials, who supported us in making sure that (1) they coded those submissions, but (2) they also analysed the themes that were coming through out of those 3,504 submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225dec06e8b9d847bdbf5a51cad169ca1b\u0022\u003EWhat was incredibly important is that, very similar to another bill that the Minister has enacted very recently\u2014the Regulatory Standards Bill\u2014the majority of submissions were opposed to this bill: 92.7 percent were opposed to this bill, with 0.6 percent supportive and 6.7 percent unstated or otherwise unclear. The opposed submissions included concerns around the potential for negative impact on the environment, particularly fresh water and forestry; the impact on iwi M\u0101ori, and the desire for explicit Treaty recognition in the Act; the lack of consultation before the bill was introduced or a desire for specified consultation during consent processes; concerns about foreign investment going offshore\u2014there were about 84 submissions which actually spoke to that or similar concerns; a perceived lack of accountability in decision making under the Act, there were 963 submissions on that point alone; and the potential for international obligations to mean that changes are irreversible, there were 183 submissions on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225dec06e8b9d847bdbf5a51cad169ca1b\u0022\u003EThere were a small number of submissions from law firms and industry groups providing nuance and supportive feedback on the bill, and I just want to make sure that I put that on record. Businesses and industry groups were broadly supportive, but several expressed a desire for more substantial change. For the future lawyer that has to do the due diligence in the litigation, have a look at the Treasury officials\u2019 report on the submission. There\u2019s a whole sector at the back of that which actually sets out what those material changes should be, but they were ruled out of scope for the purposes of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225dec06e8b9d847bdbf5a51cad169ca1b\u0022\u003EOne particular summary from the submissions was on the removal of new section 19C(1)(a), inserted by clause 15, which states that one of the mandatory factors for a national interest assessment is the purpose statement. The reason why the committee agreed not to change this\u2014again, this is for the Hansard, for those future litigation purposes\u2014is because it is not necessary to have the purpose as a consideration factor, as the purpose statement is something statutory decision makers will consider when determining the national interest. That is an important point for future litigation. If for any reason you are litigating against the Crown, you can use that, because it should be considered by the statutory decision maker when considering determining the national interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225dec06e8b9d847bdbf5a51cad169ca1b\u0022\u003EOne of the major submissions that came through\u2014and it was from a lot of individuals and, for example, from the M\u0101ori Law Society, Te Hunga R\u014Dia M\u0101ori o Aotearoa\u2014was on the impact on M\u0101ori. Their response was on the removal of the benefit test. There was a strong environmental theme in submissions for M\u0101ori and iwi. Many responders suggested the need for foreign investment screening to continue to provide, enforce, or support environmental standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225dec06e8b9d847bdbf5a51cad169ca1b\u0022\u003ENow, the important part for those future litigators\u2014and I\u2019m hoping that this will save some billable hours in the future\u2014is that the advice that was received by officials, accepted by majority members on the Government benches, and will be the reason why this bill goes through, was that benefits will continue to be considered within the national interest test. Again, going back to that earlier point, I talked about new section 19C; that is an important point for iwi M\u0101ori and for the M\u0101ori Law Society whenever they come to the future litigation against the Crown. They can look to the national interest test, because that\u2019s Parliament\u2019s intention and therefore that\u2019s where you can find the windows of opening. I think it was really important that I put that on the Hansard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225dec06e8b9d847bdbf5a51cad169ca1b\u0022\u003EThe officials continue to say, \u201CThe test will first assess whether a risk is contrary to the national interest before considering whether the benefits of the transaction offsets these risks. M\u0101ori interests may be considered as part of this consideration of risk.\u201D There you have it, iwi M\u0101ori. There is your gap in order for you to be able to litigate this in the future, because the advice accepted by the majority of this House when this bill was enacted, and therefore the advice that was accepted by the select committee, ensures that your considerations will be as part of that national interest test. I just wanted to save you some billable hours for the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225dec06e8b9d847bdbf5a51cad169ca1b\u0022\u003EAnother issue that was raised during submissions\u2014and this is, again, really important because it was a factor that kept coming up through submissions\u2014is the watering down of decision making from no longer being at the primary legislation level, but going down to secondary legislation with the regulations that could be made. There were some comments here from the Regulations Review Committee, but actually almost to a tertiary level of legislation, which is around a ministerial directive letter, and that\u2019s in clause 22 of the bill. Again, the Regulations Review Committee was concerned that in the absence of a definition of national interest in the bill, substantive policy decisions would be left to the discretion of the Minister to determine by way of secondary legislation, and it sets out why that was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225dec06e8b9d847bdbf5a51cad169ca1b\u0022\u003EThe advice received by the Government and by the select committee, and which they will be approving through majority in this House when this bill becomes an Act, is that all transactions that require consenting currently can be called for a national interest test. We know that. But the main thing was that the Government wanted to provide some flexibility, and it aims to provide additional transparency and certainty via setting out that expectation in the ministerial decision letter. The use of the ministerial decision letter should shape decision making in a set of factors that must be considered when determining national risk. That is under the new section 19D, which sets out a variety of factors to be considered by the regulator or the Minister when determining the national interest. When you go to litigate this in the future, that is your third door to ensure that the ministerial directive letter is where you can go to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225dec06e8b9d847bdbf5a51cad169ca1b\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to leave it there, because I\u2019m pretty sure a number of our members on the Opposition benches\u2014in particular, the Green Party, who had quite a substantive minority view\u2014will go through some of these openings to where the Government have basically allowed for loopholes to be seen, and that\u2019s why I\u2019m putting them in the Hansard today. The Labour Party considers that this bill shifts the balance of overseas investment away from the principle that investment in New Zealand is a privilege and it undermines the scrutiny of applications. I\u2019ve just shown you some of the doors you can walk through. We consider that removal of the character test and reliance on the ministerial directive letter puts New Zealand at risk from inappropriate foreign investment. It doesn\u2019t have the secure safeguards that we need in this bill, because investing in New Zealand is a privilege. Never once did I hear the Minister ever utter four letters, \u201Cjobs\u201D\u2014none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc51d25035444d6c84b3bcbb7d567603\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc51d25035444d6c84b3bcbb7d567603\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. I have to say that it\u2019s very telling that the Minister in charge of this bill is David Seymour, a person who has extremist views that do not represent the values of most New Zealanders. He\u2019s one of the two tails wagging the dog of this Government. Somehow there are two of them. But, clearly, New Zealand First is missing out because they\u2019re voting for this bill. I think we won\u2019t be able to call them New Zealand First anymore; it\u2019s more like \u201COverseas Corporates First\u201D. That\u2019s what this Government is about. It\u2019s a right-wing playbook that has been used time and time again. I think the public would be very familiar with it, and we just have to call it out and explain what\u2019s going on here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EWhat is going on here? They get in, and they say, \u201CWe don\u2019t have any money\u2014we don\u2019t have any money. We\u2019ve given it all away to landlords, tax breaks for the rich, tax breaks for tobacco companies.\u201D Then they say, \u201COh, we need money from overseas investors. Those very kind, benevolent overseas rich people who are going to come here and build our infrastructure for free.\u201D\u2014no, no\u2014\u201CBelieve us; it\u2019ll be fine. We\u2019ll just sell off our strategic assets. We\u2019ll sell them off, and we\u2019ll be fine. It\u2019ll be jobs and productivity.\u201D They just make this stuff up. It\u2019s actually embarrassing to see the Government backbenchers consistently say things that are absolutely ridiculous. They live in a dreamland where wealthy, benevolent investors come and sprinkle their fairy dust and make us all richer. Actually, the truth is it never makes us all richer. New Zealanders lose sovereignty and control of our own natural environment, of our water, of our air, of our forests, and of our whenua, and who benefits? Well, the overseas investors and maybe\u2014maybe\u2014a few wealthy New Zealanders here benefit as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EBy and large, this is not going to be something that delivers for our country as a whole. That\u2019s why we will not support it, and that\u2019s why the overwhelming majority of submissions were opposed. There are some extremely lengthy, well-informed submissions that I would recommend anybody look at and read. Of course, the Government members won\u2019t. I\u2019m not sure they\u2019re capable of reading anything other than their talking points, and they\u2019re probably not capable of understanding the economics. Well, maybe a few of them are, but they\u2019re willing to compromise on their knowledge and principles for this job that they have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EHere we\u2019ve got summary and recommendations from some very well-informed submitters to the Finance and Expenditure Committee. I\u2019m absolutely serious. People should read these submissions because they\u2019re thoughtful submissions with references, with evidence, and with analysis to support them from people with PhDs in economics. One of them is from Geoff Bertram, who has a doctorate in economics from University of Oxford. He taught at the School of Economics and Finance at Victoria University for more than three decades. If you read his submission, you will see he makes a very strong argument as to why this bill is mistaken in its overall objective and how it\u2019s weakening the tests of what is actually good for New Zealand. A big part of this is that where overseas capital funds new productive activity that would otherwise not have been developed and the income generated by that activity is retained within the local economy, there could be a case for inflow. But, by and large, that\u2019s not what has happened over the last 30 years. We can see this most strongly with the overseas, Australian-owned banks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EOne of the main reasons why our current account deficit, like our balance of payments, is negative is because we have overseas ownership of our debt. That means that the profits just go offshore. I highly recommend the submission from Bill Rosenberg, who also has a PhD in economics. He made the point that, firstly\u2014and this is what\u2019s happening over and over again\u2014there\u2019s very poor process and that things are being rushed through in short time frames without due diligence. But, of course, due diligence doesn\u2019t support the aims of this Government. The aim of the Government is to ram as much stuff through as possible in a short time frame\u2014this is particularly the aim of David Seymour\u2014to undo the role that Government plays in protecting and empowering people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EThis is a person, our Deputy Prime Minister, who does not believe in public good and whose entire political career is dedicated to removing the oversight of Government and removing the possibility of empowering those who are not doing as well. I don\u2019t know if he believes in his bizarre ideology or if he just says it because he\u2019s repping for some very strong vested interests, but, either way, the result is the same: New Zealanders will miss out and will lose control, profits will flow to a smaller and smaller number of people, and our natural environment upon which we rely to live good lives and to have a productive and thriving economy will be eroded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EI\u2019d love to quote from Bill Rosenberg\u2019s submission, paragraph 10, \u201CThe economics\u201D: \u201CThe main objective of the bill is \u2018to make New Zealand a more attractive place to invest by speeding up consent for low-risk investments\u2019 based on a concern that New Zealand is not getting enough [foreign direct investment]. 11. \u2026 not all foreign investment is \u2026 beneficial, even if it\u2019s confined to low-risk investment. A more selective process for [foreign direct investment] is needed \u2026 [that] is increasingly being used internationally. The quality of [foreign direct investment] in Aotearoa New Zealand has been low \u2026 It tends to be concentrated in non-tradeable sectors and in areas which provide market dominance such as in banking and insurance (which together made up 43% of FDI stock in 2024 according to Statistics New Zealand), and supermarkets.\u201D The very sectors where foreign direct investment is concentrated are sectors where we don\u2019t have good competition and we have excess profits, and that\u2019s where any productivity gains here in New Zealand are being sucked out by organisations and investors that are not contributing at all to that productivity. It makes us poorer as a country, but that suits these guys because they\u2019re just here to enable the very richest to get richer. That\u2019s what they\u2019re all about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EA frontier-firm strategy to raise productivity\u2014as recommended in the Productivity Commission report, New Zealand firms: Reaching for the frontier in 2021\u2014where development in particular areas led by a large productivity frontier firm depends on selecting a few large firms with the required record and characteristics. What is being proposed in this bill is not going to enable that. Bank profits constitute a very large part of the investment income deficit. Only in the pandemic, where trade was severely disrupted, did that pattern change. We\u2019re actually losing income as a result of foreign direct investment that reduces our own sovereignty and ability to invest and get the benefit of those investments. This is incredibly well researched. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EObviously, I can\u2019t read all of these submissions, but just as an example, here\u2019s a 14-page submission with excellent graphs and citations and we compare that to the ideological rhetoric of David Seymour, who says, \u201CJust trust us. Just trust us, mate.\u201D We know whose interests David Seymour is looking out for, and it is not ordinary, everyday New Zealanders, it\u2019s not future generations, and it\u2019s not the natural environment. That person is so disconnected from people and the environment that he has no idea what is really going on. But what he does do very well is dismantle systems that we have set up to protect our country and our long-term future. That\u2019s what Government is for: protecting and empowering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EA pretty good example, in one of these submissions which I read, was about how they\u2019re getting rid of the provision around water-bottling plants and treating water-bottling plants differently on the claim that there haven\u2019t been that many proposals for foreign water-bottling plants. Well, there\u2019s one thing I can tell you: it\u2019s that New Zealanders do not want foreign companies coming here, taking our water, and then making a profit off it and selling it back to us or to anyone else. Water is life. Water is essential. The people who think that big corporations are here to make our lives better really haven\u2019t been paying attention to the last few decades, where corporations have systematically sought to concentrate power, have reaped excess profits, and have eroded workers\u2019 rights, usually through lobbying to politicians. It\u2019s a very old playbook. I\u2019ve seen it all play out in the United States when our democracy is crumbling. It\u2019s just a dire situation because of decades of an ideology like the one that these people represent, which is let the rich get richer, destroy Government services, sell it out of the private sector, sell it off to foreign investors, destroy the environment, and remove regulation. Those are not the values of New Zealanders. I look forward to when we get a chance to vote and get a new Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00224eb80576896940739114bcef64e975f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224eb80576896940739114bcef64e975f5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I call the next speaker, the inanity and quality of the interjections will often be reflected in how much leverage a speaker on the other side of the House might get. Everything is a balancing act. I might just ask everyone to reflect on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224b2f5c45d42a433893ae6677b9a7307d\u0022 data-id=\u002222d5f1b97bdd4556a079827430932ef6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b2f5c45d42a433893ae6677b9a7307d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222d5f1b97bdd4556a079827430932ef6\u0022\u003ECAMERON BREWER (National\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E What a lot of Green garbage, what a lot of Green waste and, dare I say, what a lot of Green manure. Let\u2019s get back to what this bill actually achieves and seeks to achieve. This bill simplifies the screening process for less sensitive assets by introducing a streamlined national interest test. The Overseas Investment (National Interest Test and Other Matters) Amendment Bill maintains current screening requirements for investments in farmland, the fishing quota, and residential land, recognising the unique sensitivity of these assets. Unfortunately, New Zealand has one of the most restrictive foreign investment regimes in the OECD, and so this updated system brings New Zealand up to speed with other advanced economies, cutting compliance costs, reducing processing time, and restoring confidence that New Zealand is open for business. I commend the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022212cf7474b304d86a379dbfeb693d855\u0022 data-id=\u00224fdbc4cf28334886821c275bef3fa011\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022212cf7474b304d86a379dbfeb693d855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224fdbc4cf28334886821c275bef3fa011\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON (Minister for Rural Communities):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. On behalf of New Zealand First, I rise to support this bill. Look, New Zealand First, without a doubt, has always had a degree of caution around overseas investment\u2014open slather overseas investment. We\u2019ve got plenty of examples where it hasn\u2019t worked to our advantage\u2014the banking sector being one, and its massive profits that are being sucked out of New Zealand. We go into these bills with our eyes wide open, not from an ideological point of view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022212cf7474b304d86a379dbfeb693d855\u0022\u003EWe do have a woeful record of flogging off State assets, but we are not North Korea. We are pragmatic. We do realise that we do need balance if we\u2019re going to turn this economy around; we do need injections of capital. Some of that will be foreign capital\u2014particularly useful where it\u2019s bringing in new investments and new jobs. We\u2019re seeing it down in Otago, particularly, at the moment, in the mining sector. We are bringing expertise, bringing capital, and opening up massive opportunities. They will be very high-paying jobs, and they\u2019re high-paying jobs in New Zealand rather than in Australia, where many of our people are going to the mining sector. They can now come to Otago, which of course is a much better place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022212cf7474b304d86a379dbfeb693d855\u0022\u003EIn terms of the scaremongering that\u2019s going on around this, I just want to reiterate that there is a national interest test in this. We\u2019ve made sure that that remains. There is no change for farmland, for fishing quota, and for the residential property considerations. We have held firm on those things\u2014they\u2019re really important to us. As you know, within a coalition there\u2019s a range of views on this stuff, but I think we\u2019ve struck a balance. We\u2019ve used our proportionate influence to make sure those things are protected, through the select committee process and the high interest that there was\u20143,500 submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022212cf7474b304d86a379dbfeb693d855\u0022\u003EThis is something that matters to New Zealanders. There\u2019s a certain portion of New Zealanders that represent us that would want to see us protecting those core values that we hold, and we believe we have, and got balance within the wide spectrum of views within this coalition. With that, we continue to commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00226496ea2a1df74f3998ab5fd65e7fa704\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226496ea2a1df74f3998ab5fd65e7fa704\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: A five-minute call, Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u00221513140956d94d0cb4a600022e92cda7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221513140956d94d0cb4a600022e92cda7\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. As my previous speaker\u2014the Hon Julie Anne Genter\u2014mentioned, the Green Party will not support this bill. There are very good reasons for that. I think, when we hear the Minister who is in charge talking about how we are unkind or we\u2019re not welcoming to foreign investors, that\u2019s not necessarily the case. But where we are unkind and not accommodating to foreign investors is those who come to Aotearoa New Zealand with ill will, with the idea of exploiting our country, and especially those projects that have been rejected in other countries, particularly some of the other OECD countries. I want to point out that while one of the previous speakers mentioned that we have a more stringent requirement than other OECD countries, that particular member also could not name a single one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EWhen we are looking at this bill, let\u2019s talk about a couple of things that the bill does address and, I think, some of the submitters during the select committee process have explored reasonably well. In clause 8, we do see some of the changes that we\u2019re looking at in terms of the investor test. I think, as the submitters pointed out and we see some changes that have been made as part of the select committee stage, that the investor test will no longer seek\u2014particularly with regards to sensitive land\u2014background checks on some of these investors, particularly when there are investors who may have a criminal record or may have projects or investments in other countries that are illegal, for lack of a better word; some of those adjustments have been changed as part of this legislation. There is a concern that if they do change aspects of the investor test\u2014I acknowledge that some of them have retained things like around farmlands, things around coastal areas; however, there are still sections that remain a concern in terms of the removal of some of the sections when it comes to an investment test, particularly in terms of the oversight of sensitive lands, forests, and water resources. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI think this is one of the issues we are seeing with the weakening of the environmental safeguards, particularly when it comes to water bottling and extraction. This was something that was a huge problem maybe about eight years ago, that we saw this play out in certain areas. Water is\u2014fresh water, in particular\u2014a taonga, and we do need to look after our own resources.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EIn those kinds of cases, while a lot of people say \u201COh, look, investment is good. Investment creates jobs.\u201D, we also haven\u2019t clearly heard the Government side concisely articulate exactly how many jobs they expect it to create as a result of this. We do see a lot of sound bites being created but not a lot of tangible evidence to say, \u201CLook, we are going to be seeing 4,000 jobs in this area, therefore we\u2019re going to be seeing X number of jobs.\u201D At least in the Green Budget, for example, it clearly articulated we\u2019re going to be creating 40,000 jobs, but we haven\u2019t seen some of that being played out by this Government and in this particular bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EAlso, when we are looking at some of these areas in terms of this particular piece of legislation in conjunction with other legislation that has also gone through the House\u2014for example, the Invest New Zealand Bill that was going through the House under urgency without even a select committee process, where we have already said that if we do continue and change the settings to the way we look at overseas investment and things like the national interest test and other matters, we are going to be seeing that Invest New Zealand will, essentially, function as a real estate agency that sells off New Zealand piece by piece. Again, we do ask why certain political parties that presume to put Aotearoa New Zealand first do not look at this bill with a more critical lens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EFinally, I think some of the submitters, particularly Emeritus Professor Jane Kelsey, have raised a number of really important questions around the interaction with the free-trade agreement, and particularly when we\u2019re looking from a forestry perspective and how that will affect, in terms of the ratchet clauses that we\u2019re seeing, an ability to relook at forestry and into sort of native or alternative land, as well as certain interactions that we saw with ISDS\u2014that\u2019s the investor-State dispute settlement process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EAll in all, we are seeing that this bill is being put across without any sort of genuine understanding or genuine, well-thought-out argument to say that this is something that will benefit Aotearoa New Zealand. At this stage, we cannot\u2014actually, we probably won\u2019t support this bill at all. We are going to still be asking some questions at the committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270ed52c2243745f285c14a2d3413a86a\u0022 data-id=\u0022701c9c6f10c74e638fe64095d65fcc64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270ed52c2243745f285c14a2d3413a86a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022701c9c6f10c74e638fe64095d65fcc64\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It was only two days ago that I was speaking to a lady who has got property on the edge of our city, and it\u2019s ripe for development. She wants to offload it, but no local buyers will take it. She\u2019s been dealing with the Overseas Investment Office. It\u2019s too hard and she\u2019s been pulling her hair out. She said that lawyers want tens of thousands of dollars. This bill is all about streamlining and making it easy, and instead of that going on and on for up to 70 days, in some cases, it limits it to 15 working days. It\u2019s a no-brainer, and I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022 data-id=\u002263506a64b3ff4b04b1725173eeb0b3a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263506a64b3ff4b04b1725173eeb0b3a2\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m no longer on this wonderful committee that we have\u2014the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2014but I remember my time on it fondly. I absolutely gained deep respect for the work that my colleague Barbara Edmonds did on that committee at the time when she was the chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EI picked up this piece of legislation, and it\u2019s actually been one of those moments when I look at a piece of legislation and really worry. I worry partly because of the kinds of comments that I heard from the Minister presenting it but also from Ryan Hamilton, who has just stood up. Now, he said very little in that speech, but he did heckle one of the other members when they suggested that some formidable economists had been concerned about this legislation. He said in his statement across the House \u201CDid those people run a business?\u201D, and I thought, \u201CWell, did David Seymour run a business?\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EWhat I am concerned about is that ideology is front-footing this piece of legislation, when in fact this is the very sort of legislation that we should tread carefully with. I looked at the regulatory impact statement and my concerns grew. In the regulatory impact statement, it says that \u201CWhile the potential benefits of attracting more international investment are clear, there are also risks that need to be managed. New Zealand is facing a fundamentally more challenging security outlook, and an enduring screening regime is required to manage risks to our national interest that emerge over time.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EWe are living in unprecedented times. What we are doing in this piece of legislation is easing up the scrutiny that we have on foreign investment, and that\u2019s a very dangerous thing to do. It goes well beyond the skills of running a business, but it is also of concern to those who do, and it\u2019s of concern that that report goes on to talk about the evidence for this and it looks at how there is some evidence from developing countries, but very little from countries like ours, if we do this, in terms of the benefits of it. That was from Treasury, and I am particularly concerned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003ESome of the submitters are people I really admire, who have been very worried about this piece of legislation. One is Dame Anne Salmond, who is a national treasure. She\u2019s one of our deepest thinkers, and she stands very much independently. I don\u2019t think that she is a member of any party, but she is particularly concerned about the impact that it will have on iwi, and I share that concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EWhat we have here, and have had here until now, are safeguards, and it\u2019s so important that when we look at those things, we don\u2019t look through an ideological lens. We\u2019re trying to balance interests here. Yes, there\u2019s nothing wrong with some foreign investment. In fact, that\u2019s a really good thing, and Labour has put up a proposal to have a future fund so that it can attract that investment but keep it onshore. But it\u2019s a very different thing when we tip that balance and concentrate all the power in a Minister\u2019s hands about where those decisions will lie. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EI am concerned about that, and I go to the Labour Party view first here. They have a differing view that they spell out in the report back on this piece of legislation. The members who were representing us, including the Hon Barbara Edmonds, said that \u201CThe Labour Party considers that the bill shifts the balance of overseas investment consent away from the principle that investment in New Zealand is a privilege, and undermines the scrutiny of applications. We consider that removal of the character test and reliance on Ministerial directive letter puts New Zealand at risk from inappropriate foreign investment.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s a pretty serious thing to do, to shift that balance, and I have made that point right at the beginning of my speech. I\u2019m particularly concerned about shifting that balance right now, because we have a very different world from the world we had even 10 years ago. We have the conglomeration of power and a lot of autocracy, and, actually, those big, big countries that are not necessarily democratic\u2014they want in to other people\u2019s economies, and that is in fact something that we should worry about. We should make sure that we keep control of our land. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EIn this country, we\u2019ve been really, really streets ahead in our reconciliation for what happened when we colonised in this country and for the damage that was done. We have had a reconciliation process that\u2019s ongoing, and we have had a lot of iwi ending up with a lot more of the resources than they have had. It is pitifully little, really, given how much they\u2019ve lost, but with those resources, there has been investment in New Zealand, and we have a skyrocketing M\u0101ori economy. The businesses that M\u0101ori are running in this country are remarkable. It is one our most growing areas, and what we are doing here is we are opening the gate to foreign investment, with very little regard for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EThe reason I\u2019ve been most worried about that is that it\u2019s not the only thing that this Government has been doing. It\u2019s been undermining all the value that there has been in recognising the principles of the Treaty. It\u2019s been undermining that very development, and so this is a worry to me. It\u2019s a worry at a foreign interference level, it\u2019s a worry at a \u201Clack of control by New Zealanders\u201D level, and it\u2019s a worry in terms of a burgeoning economy that is based on, really, a M\u0101ori renaissance of economic power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EThis is of extreme concern to me, and I was very interested to hear the comments from the Green members when they stood up. I look at their contribution to this report back, and they are talking about things that matter. They are talking about the centralisation of power, they are talking about the weakening of environmental and public safeguards, they are talking about the Treaty of Waitangi and M\u0101ori interests, and they are talking about the public and expert concern which rallied against this bill by an overwhelming amount. Those are all things that we need to hear in this Parliament. Even if the position that the Government takes is different, they don\u2019t need to be dismissed as views that are somehow extreme, because they are not extreme. Those are logical concerns that we should all share, and I don\u2019t have to be a member of the Green Party to share those concerns and to listen to those points of view. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EWe are supposed to be a mature Parliament. We should be able to listen to views on the other side and consider them, and consider a changing world in light of them. Those things that are raised here in the Labour differing view and in the Green differing view\u2014I am worried that those chickens will come home to roost in this area. It is time not to get up and make a 30-second speech, and not to get up and say a 30-second line, but to get up and actually think about this legislation and make a contribution. Even if the Government members disagree with the Opposition, it would be good to hear about the balancing that\u2019s gone on and the checks and balances that are in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019ve heard some of that contribution today, but I haven\u2019t heard enough of it. What I have heard is a lot of people whipping through the agenda and getting this put through with very little scrutiny at all. It is important to me to actually make the point that, on this side of the House, the Opposition is doing its job and it is competent in doing it. That is why those views will stand the test of time, and it is very important that they are not dismissed and they\u2019re not seen as being somehow completely radical when, in fact, the position that has been taken is a pretty reasonable one in a changing world. We should be concerned in this country about losing control over our assets. They\u2019re precious to New Zealanders. We\u2019ve made those mistakes before, and we shouldn\u2019t be making them again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EI am for the Future Fund. I\u2019m for doing these things in a way that keeps assets within New Zealand and which grows our own autonomy and control and power over those assets. That\u2019s where we put our energy, and we keep the safeguards and we\u2019re cautious\u2014we\u2019re cautious and we\u2019re savvy\u2014about the world we now live in before we give up those powers to other people. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022 data-id=\u00224388aa10118a4977885f833f42b2545c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224388aa10118a4977885f833f42b2545c\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E This bill is all part of the Government\u2019s plan to go for growth. This is all about growth, and how do we get growth? We get it by investment, and either it\u2019s domestic investment or, in this case, foreign investment. You can\u2019t just say you\u2019re all about growth and then not be prepared to actually welcome foreign investment. Countries like Estonia, South Korea, Switzerland, Ireland, and Singapore\u2014much wealthier countries than New Zealand\u2014have all said, \u201CCome, foreign investment.\u201D This is what this bill is about: making it easy and simple to invest in this country so that we can go for growth. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022 data-id=\u00220b282ce8405847668b4f384dd4d17acc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b282ce8405847668b4f384dd4d17acc\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. Otir\u0101 kei te t\u016B awau ki te whakah\u0113 i t\u0113nei pire, ar\u0101 te pire Overseas Investment (National Interest Test and Other Matters) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Mr Speaker. Indeed, I stand to oppose this bill, the Overseas Investment (National Interest Test and Other Matters) Amendment Bill.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003ELast week, it was my privilege to receive a petition from Bevan O\u2019Connor of Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu to withdraw the Regulatory Standards Bill, a bill which received 0.7\u00A0percent support of submitters. Here we are again, pushing through a bill that only 0.6\u00A0percent of submitters supported. What does that tell you, Aotearoa? The Government are deaf to your whakaaro. They want to run the country, they want to run it with you in it, but they will not hear your views on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003EWe hear about the amazing success of the M\u0101ori economy. We know the M\u0101ori economy has got an asset base of $126\u00A0billion and contributed $32\u00A0billion to GDP. Now, how did they do that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229a9c205f95fc4f5c8943b440b9f5cb1d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e348871afd504c5ca58c68f88f46827d\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t there foreign investment in the M\u0101ori economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb002e8baa6447389e43c96c44f93d3d\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL\u003C/span\u003E: How did they do that, expert on the M\u0101ori economy? They did that by recovering, retaining, and protecting assets for the growth not only of iwi, hap\u016B, and their descendants and the ability to stay on their whenua and grow communities, like those you proport to represent. That\u2019s how they did it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003ENow, this Government is disregarding that and making statements like, \u201CThese are dealing with less-sensitive assets.\u201D What is a less-sensitive asset to an uri of Aotearoa, an uri of hap\u016B, and an uri of iwi? When a woman is pregnant, the child takes sustenance from the placenta, which we call whenua. When we\u2019re born, we continue to take sustenance from the whenua. That\u2019s why we know its value. Then we identify ourselves with our maunga, our awa, and our whenua. That\u2019s its value. A perfect example is the beautiful Whanganui: ko au te awa, ko te awa ko au\u2014I am the river, and the river is me. It sounds like the local MP would be happy to hock it off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003EHoi an\u014D r\u0101, we are talking about less sensitive assets. Once again, this shows a disregard for Te Tiriti o Waitangi. How often do we sit in this House and say, \u201CWe all support these Treaty settlements.\u201D? We look up at people who have been disenfranchised from their whenua. We hear about the disgraceful impacts of that. We all say\u2014including that side\u2014\u201CWe are so sorry. We\u2019re so sorry we\u2019ve taken that away from you.\u201D Yet here we are again, willing to take that risk. The other reason the M\u0101ori economy is going so strongly is a point that my esteemed colleague the Hon Barbara Edmonds pointed out: it\u2019s that we understand it is indeed a privilege to invest in Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003EI just want to acknowledge the people throughout Aotearoa who submitted on this, and many others. Sadly, because we\u2019ve got a tone-deaf Government, people around this country have had to become experts on writing submissions, just for them to fall on deaf ears. People, like Te Hunga R\u014Dia, some of the most impressive minds in this country, were completely disregarded, and people like the M\u0101ori Women\u2019s Development Incorporation, who have been directly responsible for contributing to the growth of not just the M\u0101ori economy but the overall Aotearoa economy for the investment they make in growing skills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003EHeoi an\u014D r\u0101, hei whakakapi i t\u0113nei [Anyway, to conclude this], I reinforce our opposition to this, but I just want to, again, reinforce Labour\u2019s vision for the growth of Aotearoa, a vision, like the New Zealand Future Fund, that will not only ensure economic growth, it will ensure it here in Aotearoa, by Aotearoa, and for Aotearoa\u2014while not closing our doors to the world but making sure that the world knows what we stand for, and that is kaitiakitanga, not just growing the p\u016Btea. Like I\u2019ve said, our kaitiakitanga is forever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022eec04b7ebe1f4fa69da7f1a69ed415d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eec04b7ebe1f4fa69da7f1a69ed415d6\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E To grow our economy, we need to attract overseas capital investment. New Zealand currently has one of the most restrictive foreign investment regimes in the OECD. This has cost us opportunities and jobs. We need to speed up decision making and improve certainty for investors and say, \u201CNew Zealand is open for business\u201D. This is what creates jobs and opportunity. I commend this bill to the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022 data-id=\u00226675ab1c8106444b8844a151ef7a4894\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226675ab1c8106444b8844a151ef7a4894\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a line of one of my favourite songs: \u201COnce it\u2019s gone, baby, it\u2019s gone.\u201D Once those assets are gone, it\u2019s gone. It\u2019s probably a bit more modern to many of the members on that side, but I know members across this House have driven by ports around New Zealand and have seen our logs sitting on ports\u2014raw, undeveloped, harvested, but certainly not produced through our mills\u2014and simply going offshore. What value does New Zealand get from that? I can tell you: bugger all. Eventually, New Zealand will go to other countries where these logs are sold and buy that produce back to this country. That was the outcome of asset sales of this kind that went unchecked, unregulated, and now sees the vast majority of our forests in this country owned by offshore investors. That\u2019s not the New Zealand for the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EWhen I was a trustee on our tribal forest trust, it worked because of the reasons my colleague here\u2014Cushla Tangaere-Manuel\u2014 espoused to the House: (1) we were never going to sell our land or give it away; (2) when we grow those resources on our land, we need to make sure that those resources produce outcomes for the people who benefit from that land. That means jobs, wealth, income, and opportunity. When you sell those assets, they\u2019re gone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019m looking this way for a certain reason, because New Zealand First, I know, believes in this. New Zealand First knows that selling off our assets is a bad thing for this country. Yes, of course we want foreign investment. In fact, when the Government held their foreign investment symposium earlier in their tenure of this term, who were the ones that the foreign investors wanted to talk to? M\u0101ori. Why? Because M\u0101ori have a 100-year strategic view. They\u2019re not flogging off the asset for a short sugar hit; for an income hit that will help them develop their community. No, these investors are saying to M\u0101ori, \u201CWhat you\u2019re looking at is strategic. Let\u2019s work together to make sure that everybody benefits from this.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EFrom the speeches we\u2019ve heard from the other side of the House, all I\u2019ve heard is, \u201CLet\u2019s get rid of them to the people we like so that we can grow our economy.\u201D That\u2019s just not good enough. The submitters on this bill were very clear; my colleague made it clear that very few people supported this bill. In fact, some of the smartest minds in this country have made it very clear that this bill going unchecked, without the kind of recommendations that could provide a strong platform for foreign investment into this country, have been completely ignored. Those particular amendments that could have been included, I think will come back and bite this Government in the backside.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EWe know when we hold our assets, when we develop them, when we invest in them, it works out well for this country. There was a motto that was heard bellowed in this House in two previous terms by a member from New Zealand First, who would always say \u201CBillion trees\u201D\u2014\u201CBillion trees\u201D. For those of you who are in this House, you\u2019ll know who I\u2019m talking about. That made it very clear that the strategic goal of the Government at the time was to grow those resources for this country. Why? Because we knew we had a housing shortage, we knew we had an infrastructure shortage, and we knew we could produce the vast bulk of those resources to meet those needs. Trees were one way to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EThe National Party and the ACT Party, though, saw it as an opportunity to say, \u201COh, they\u2019re getting rid of farmland; they\u2019re turning it into forestry, etc., etc.\u201D Sure, they gained the platform through the election by doing so. However, now what we have is fewer forests in New Zealand hands. Those trees that were planted in and invested in to grow carbon credits in this country have, for the most part, been sold off. We also know, too, that when we were in power, Labour invested in making sure we could process that wood and that timber. Sadly, that\u2019s all gone now. Now, we go back to that time I mentioned at the start of my contribution. We drive past ports with raw logs sitting there waiting to be exported to other countries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EThe National Party and the ACT Party say, \u201CLook at Singapore. They rely on foreign investment to get going.\u201D Well, guess what! Singapore don\u2019t have forests. Singapore don\u2019t have valuable conservation land. Singapore don\u2019t have all of the resources that we are blessed with in this country. I\u2019ve been to Singapore. You can run the length of that country. Well, I can; some members in this House, Mr McCallum\u2019s one\u2014I suspect he won\u2019t be able to do that. None the less, the point of it is this: they were strategic in their time to make sure that their investment invested in their own human capability. That\u2019s why they have such high technology avenues. That\u2019s why they have such a productive economy: because they invested that way. What this, sadly, does, though, is it continues to\u2014in a concern for all of us\u2014lower thresholds to allow more people to come in and to invest and to buy up assets in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003ENow, what it also does is something that we\u2019ve seen time and time again from, in particular, the ACT Party, where democracy means nothing or means very little. It\u2019s putting the power in the hand of the Minister of Finance to go, \u201CNah, today I feel like this and I might do that; or tomorrow\u2014nah, I might not let that one go through.\u201D Now, while I accept that a ministerial post comes with huge responsibility, when we\u2019re talking about the country\u2019s strategic assets, I\u2019m of a mind that those matters should be debated here in this House\u2014somewhere where we can have a full democratic process that says, \u201CThese are the views our country have towards the strategic assets that we have either on the market or off the market at the moment.\u201D Now, I think that that\u2019s reasonable. When we continue to marginalise the voice of many and put the power into the hands of so few, I have a problem with that\u2014and we\u2019ve seen it far too many times on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EI\u2019m always concerned when we look towards the erosion of Treaty rights\u2014and there have been a number of legal cases that have been won, hard-fought for, through the high courts in this country, through the local court, through the District Court, and on to the High Court and the Supreme Court, that have continued to reaffirm M\u0101ori rights in this country. I\u2019m not just talking about customary title; I\u2019m talking about actual rights to areas that were confiscated by the Crown over many years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EYet here we are, continually eroding that voice and that part that Te Tiriti o Waitangi offers protection for this country, not just for M\u0101ori. It offers protection for this country; for all citizens in this country to say, \u201CThese are important assets to all of us, so let\u2019s look after them. Let\u2019s look after them for the benefit of the majority and not for the benefit of the few.\u201D Te Tiriti o Waitangi is not the enemy here; in fact, it is a gateway. I said earlier that the conference that the Government held looking for foreign investment look towards M\u0101ori to ensure that long-term investments were the way that everybody wins\u2014and you get that through to Te Tiriti o Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EOne of the things I\u2019m proud of, when this House does its settlements, is when we return strategic assets, we look towards allowing iwi to grow that asset for themselves. My colleague Cushla Tangaere-Manuel sat here and went through the numbers. But I can tell you\u2014it was 30 years ago when Waikato-Tainui settled the first settlement under Jim Bolger and Doug Graham\u2014that it\u2019s taken a long time to grow that pie. A long time: 30 years. That\u2019s called having a strategic view. Elections in this country are every three years, and we\u2019re looking for a sugar hit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EInstead, we need to be taking a longer-term view just like Waikato-Tainui have, just like Ng\u0101i Tahu have, and so many other iwi now. Some iwi\u2014and I know a small handful have looked towards their strategic assets and how they might be able to leverage off them, and some of them have indeed either leased them or sold them. That\u2019s OK; that\u2019s their right. They can do that. However, they\u2019ve continued to maintain an ongoing welfare mechanism; an ongoing outcome mechanism for their descendants and those who have registered with those tribes. Ultimately, though, that supports New Zealand\u2019s economic growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003ENow, if we look towards smarter investments into the future, yes, let\u2019s do what Singapore does. Let\u2019s look towards an economy that is about not just looking at our natural resources but the greatest resource in this country, which is our human capacity, right? That\u2019s what Singapore did, and look what they were able to do. That\u2019s what other countries have done, and look what they were able to do. Instead, we keep coming back to this fight for assets in this country, and I beg the New Zealand First Party to make sure that they stand by what they keep saying to our community: protect our national assets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EI say to the New Zealand First Party that it\u2019s not too late. They\u2019ve got an opportunity through the urgency that we\u2019ll all be going through over the next three days to make it clear that we stand together on protecting national resources of significance and making sure that it produces outcomes not for the rich overseas, but for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb2929110b9e4de593f6e50397159f32\u0022 data-id=\u0022a094190bf96d4ed4a8264e343162a672\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb2929110b9e4de593f6e50397159f32\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a094190bf96d4ed4a8264e343162a672\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand has had one of the most restrictive regimes for investment in the OECD countries. This legislation is balanced, pro-growth reform. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ffa9a41ff14e400584e213cec8967e2b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ffa9a41ff14e400584e213cec8967e2b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The Rt Hon Adrian Rurawhe\u2014this is the Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b6c340598b2b4f3a8fca502e31805586\u0022 data-id=\u00229a04564d431b4695af255b66ae15e556\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b6c340598b2b4f3a8fca502e31805586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a04564d431b4695af255b66ae15e556\u0022\u003ERt Hon ADRIAN RURAWHE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. He tino h\u014Dnore t\u0113nei ki te t\u016B ake ki te k\u014Drero ki t\u0113nei pire.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b6c340598b2b4f3a8fca502e31805586\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is a real honour to stand to speak to this bill.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b6c340598b2b4f3a8fca502e31805586\u0022\u003EI\u2019m sure Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori would want me to talk about Te Tiriti o Waitangi, which I\u2019m pleased to do. This bill, to me, is a sign of a weak leadership, of a weak Government that\u2019s trying to look for a shortcut for better outcomes. I\u2019ll give you an example around Te Tiriti o Waitangi. It was the New Zealand M\u0101ori Council that took the Crown to court over forestry, and it went all the way to the Privy Council. They won, and those lands were put aside for the purpose of Treaty settlements. Imagine today, with this bill, an Act that, if this bill was in place then, probably wouldn\u2019t have happened. A shortcut doesn\u2019t always give the best outcomes for all New Zealanders, because what that did was give an opportunity to grow the M\u0101ori economy that my colleague Cushla Tangaere-Manuel spoke about and that my colleague the Hon Peeni Henare spoke about. I speak about that now as a warning, and I support what my colleague the Hon Barbara Edmonds said, who gave some pathways forward in her foresight of what\u2019s about to go wrong with this bill. It\u2019s incumbent on this House, actually, to make sure it\u2019s listening to all of those voices. Shortcuts don\u2019t always mean the best way forward. Mr Speaker, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0bc38972b3a46f89b6a45c6bb3bc610\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022742cf1a4efdc48b791d6d49fc9c5777c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022742cf1a4efdc48b791d6d49fc9c5777c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, there are no more calls on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c9d305c8b63d4d60a24b776ce7fbf597\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Overseas Investment (National Interest Test and Other Matters) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000613\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00227804b930c58a4a6f91c9adcc561ebb9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227804b930c58a4a6f91c9adcc561ebb9f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The time has come for me to leave the Chair for the meal break. The House will resume at 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6.01 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229102e4a77a80482d97e35a81b12f811c\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f4712f4af20a4fd0b56d76be81f499c6\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002215080e7fbe3a4bfc9d4e668dd042447f\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbb4ec6ac93049b9bdc585445e47ac8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002215080e7fbe3a4bfc9d4e668dd042447f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbb4ec6ac93049b9bdc585445e47ac8a\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That urgency be accorded to the first reading and referral to select committee of the Education and Training (System Reform) Amendment Bill; the remaining stages of: the Defence (Workforce) Amendment Bill; and the Education and Training (Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill; the third reading of the Crimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill; the remaining stages of: the Crimes Legislation (Stalking and Harassment) Amendment Bill; and the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill (No 2); the first reading and referral to select committee of: the Telecommunications and Other Matters Amendment Bill; and the Meteorological Services (Acquisition and Policies) Legislation Amendment Bill; the second reading of the Game Animal Council (Herds of Special Interest) Amendment Bill; and the remaining stages of: the Statutes Amendment Bill; the Immigration (Fiscal Sustainability and System Integrity) Amendment Bill; the Legal Services (Distribution of Special Fund) Amendment Bill; and the Judicature (Timeliness) Legislation Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002215080e7fbe3a4bfc9d4e668dd042447f\u0022\u003EWe are going into urgency today to get through legislation before the end of the year. None of the bills progressing this week will skip their select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002215080e7fbe3a4bfc9d4e668dd042447f\u0022\u003EThe Education and Training (System Reform) Amendment Bill is having its first reading today to send it to a select committee and open up submissions before the end of the year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002215080e7fbe3a4bfc9d4e668dd042447f\u0022\u003EThe Defence (Workforce) Amendment Bill is being passed to mitigate the risks of strikes over the summer break, which would require Parliament to come back early. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002215080e7fbe3a4bfc9d4e668dd042447f\u0022\u003EThe Education and Training (Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill is passing its remaining stages this week, which will allow changes proposed in the Education and Training (System Reform) Bill to make more sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002215080e7fbe3a4bfc9d4e668dd042447f\u0022\u003EThe Crimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill and the Crimes Legislation (Stalking and Harassment) Amendment Bill are going through their remaining stages; both are part of the Government\u2019s quarter four plan, and this will achieve our commitment to pass them this year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002215080e7fbe3a4bfc9d4e668dd042447f\u0022\u003EThe Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill (No 2) will pass its remaining stages this week to complete a commitment that the Government made about the Clean Vehicle Standard, notably to reduce the charges for 2026-2027.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002215080e7fbe3a4bfc9d4e668dd042447f\u0022\u003E The Telecommunications and Other Matters Amendment Bill is being sent to select committee. This bill is closely aligned with the Telecommunications Amendment Bill, which had its first reading last week, and the select committee will benefit from being able to consider both bills at the same time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002215080e7fbe3a4bfc9d4e668dd042447f\u0022\u003EThe Statutes Amendment Bill is going through its last two stages this week. There are minor and technical changes in this bill, including for the anti - money-laundering regime, which will ease compliance costs for reporting entities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002215080e7fbe3a4bfc9d4e668dd042447f\u0022\u003EThe Game Animal Council (Herds of Special Interest) Amendment Bill is having its second reading. We want to progress this bill to get us closer to making the rules around herds of special interest clearer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002215080e7fbe3a4bfc9d4e668dd042447f\u0022\u003EThe Meteorological Services (Acquisition and Policies) Legislation Amendment Bill is being sent to select committee in order to begin the process that will provide a single authoritative voice in the case of future weather events. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002215080e7fbe3a4bfc9d4e668dd042447f\u0022\u003EThe Immigration (Fiscal Sustainability and System Integrity) Amendment Bill is going through its remaining stages, which will improve the integrity of the immigration system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002215080e7fbe3a4bfc9d4e668dd042447f\u0022\u003EThe Legal Services (Distribution of Special Fund) Amendment Bill and the Judicature (Timeliness) Legislation Amendment Bill are completing their remaining stages and will give effect to Budget 2025 savings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002255dcf5f548024b289bc564683da467e9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That urgency be accorded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224c402b0cfd43475fa5fce3befc4d5504\u0022\u003EEducation and Training (System Reform) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002268546c54c041472ab33daf2ac3dc47e7\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022 data-id=\u00226f332c3cca2843d5989dd9ec9a465d4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f332c3cca2843d5989dd9ec9a465d4b\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Education and Training (System Reform) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217e9bbbc9b8e4ecb886b1e5993c95bb7\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e9383c096e64d2a8b5f45314e83a410\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Education and Training (System Reform) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Education and Workforce Committee to consider the bill. At the appropriate time, I would intend to move that the bill be reported to the House by 30 April 2026.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s crucial that New Zealand has a world-leading education system that encourages every young person to reach their full potential, and the bill introduces a set of fundamental, system-level changes that strengthen the structure and accountability of our education system. The bill establishes a new Crown agent, the New Zealand School Property Agency\u2014\u201Cthe agency\u201D, I\u2019ll refer to it as\u2014which will have a key focus on maintaining and building the school property portfolio. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003ELast year, I established a ministerial inquiry into the Ministry of Education school property function. This inquiry was launched after we inherited a school property system that was bordering on crisis. The inquiry found that the current system for delivering school property was not fit for purpose and needs overhauling to give the right level of focus and accountability, improve the decision-making process, and provide transparency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003ESince then, we have taken a phased approach to address the inquiry\u2019s findings. Clear focus and accountability are essential to ensure efficient delivery and good investment and asset management practices. This bill proposes to establish the new Crown agent, the New Zealand School Property Agency, with a board that has the expertise needed to achieve these priorities for the school property portfolio. The agency will be responsible for delivering growth requirements set by the Ministry of Education and will also have the autonomy to plan and deliver maintenance across the property portfolio. This will allow the Ministry of Education to focus on delivering essential educational outcomes for students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EI consider this model provides the right balance of flexibility, transparency, and ministerial direction, while creating leadership and board oversight that supports commercial discipline. This bill progresses a package of changes to reform the regulation of the teaching workforce and help ensure graduate teachers can be confident in the classroom. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EThe latest report from the OECD\u2019s Teaching and Learning International survey shows that 62\u00A0percent of graduate teachers of year 1 to 10 students were not confident their initial teacher education (ITE) had prepared them sufficiently in teaching content of all subjects they needed to teach; 54 percent weren\u2019t confident ITE gave them the knowledge they needed about pedagogical approaches on how to teach. This reflects earlier evidence from a 2024 Education Review Office (ERO) report that showed only 50 percent of new teachers found that their ITE\u2014their initial teacher education\u2014was effective. The Royal Society of New Zealand\u2019s 2021 report also noted that nearly half of all year 4 teachers were only moderately confident in teaching any strand of mathematics and statistics in the curriculum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EThat is a failure of the system. Initial teacher education is not properly preparing our teaching workforce. The Teaching Council of Aotearoa New Zealand oversees setting teacher standards and setting requirements for teacher training, and it is clear that it\u2019s not working. This bill proposes to shift the responsibility for professional standard setting, and those functions, from the Teaching Council to the Ministry of Education. This includes responsibility for establishing and maintaining the standards and criteria for teacher registration, initial teacher education, ongoing practice, and the code of conduct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EI consider that shifting these functions to the Ministry of Education will allow for better alignment of policy and standard-setting functions and improve overall system consistency and coherence. Separating functions also creates better tensions in the system. This is in line with occupational registration settings in other jurisdictions, such as England and Singapore. The Teaching Council will continue its responsibility to quality assure all ITE programmes. Currently, the Teaching Council has no legislative powers to properly monitor ITE programs. This bill provides it with new legislative powers to power them up\u2014the Teaching Council\u2014to place conditions on new or existing programme approvals and remove approvals following consultation with the Secretary for Education; and monitor and review teacher education providers\u2019 delivery of approved programmes, with the power to require specific information from providers as part of these processes. It\u2019s a new legislative power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EUnder these proposed changes, the Teaching Council will continue its responsibilities for registering and certifying teachers, and competence and conduct processes. To support the council\u2019s new scope and ensure it can stay focused on its core functions, the bill will strengthen the council\u2019s role in quality assurance of initial teacher education programmes with these new legislative powers; remove its professional enhancement and leadership functions, as these are system-wide functions supported by multiple agencies; and reduce the size of the council from 13 members to between seven and nine members, with a total of three elected members from the sector. I consider these changes will help to ensure the council operates effectively and efficiently and that it\u2019s focused on its core role: providing good governance and improved initial teacher education and services to teachers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EQuality teaching must be supported by a high-quality curriculum. The curriculum hasn\u2019t been updated consistently over time, which has resulted in infrequent wholesale reform every 20 years. The proposal for curriculum areas to be reviewed and updated regularly over time in an iterative way will keep them current and based on evidence and avoid these large, disruptive overhauls we have every 20 years. This has been long been the case in high-performing jurisdictions we compare ourselves to. Additionally, the proposal combines the separate curriculum statements into one, making the requirements clearer for schools. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EThe bill also replaces a requirement for schools to consult with their community about the delivery of the health curriculum, with a requirement to inform. Last year, the Education Review Office reported that the requirement to consult often unfairly places schools in the middle of wide-ranging community views, and managing this is very difficult. With the introduction of a new age-appropriate, detailed, and clear health curriculum, year by year, schools will provide parents with better information about what is taught and how, so parents can make informed decisions on whether their child should be involved in relationships and sexuality education or not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003ERoles, responsibilities, and accountabilities across the education system can be at times unclear, fragmented, and have confusing overlaps. This bill proposes to transfer the full set of regulatory functions for registering private schools and licensing hostels from the Ministry of Education to the Education Review Office. This will help reduce duplication between agencies, clarify the role of ERO, and strengthen the approach to keeping service providers and education accountable. In line with best practice, the Ministry of Education will retain the standard- and criteria-setting functions for both private school registration and hostel licensing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EThe bill also aims to clarify the current complementary roles of ERO and the Ministry of Education in identifying and supporting schools deemed to be of serious concern. It sets out detailed reporting requirements with clear time frames for both agencies. The bill also provides for the Ministry of Education and the Minister to rely on ERO\u2019s judgment and information when determining whether the thresholds for statutory intervention are met. ERO will be expected to provide review reports with the evidence needed to guide the ministry\u2019s approach to supporting a school of serious concern, including the most appropriate intervention under section 171 of the Education and Training Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003ERaising achievement starts with showing up to school. The bill\u2019s aim to clarify expectations and strengthen accountability is also supported by the proposed changes to tighten how exemptions from school attendance are currently used. Under the proposed changes, principals will only be able to exempt attendance on the grounds prescribed in the rules set by the Secretary for Education. The new rules will provide specific requirements for the duration of any exemption that may be granted and the types of evidence required to authorise an exemption. The bill also repeals the attendance exemption relating to the walking distance between a student\u2019s residence and their school.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EFinally, the bill makes a number of other changes. A high-performing system relies on good quality data and evidence to guide decisions on how best to meet the needs of the students. This bill requires schools to participate in studies that monitor the performance of our schooling systems, such as the OECD\u2019s Programme for International Student Assessment\u2014known as PISA. Currently, the assessments are opt-in, which creates real challenges in ensuring the data is robust and representative. Low participation rates currently put us at risk of not meeting the threshold for inclusion in this and other international studies. Making these assessments mandatory will help with ensuring the participation load is evenly shared amongst schools and we get a truer picture of the state of education in the system, as, at the moment, that load falls on a few schools who always say yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EThe bill addresses a gap by enabling NZQA to include micro-credentials in the reporting requirements for education providers, ensuring the completeness of a student\u2019s record of achievement. The bill also supports the next stage in the charter school model by enabling multi-school contracts and creating more certainty for converted charter schools by providing a pathway to close and open as a new State school under circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EThis bill delivers a comprehensive package of system-level reforms that clarify roles, responsibilities, and accountabilities, promotes consistency, coherence, and efficiency, and ensures our system is set up to support all students to succeed. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022544182ef8b0140099651353af35fb44d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022544182ef8b0140099651353af35fb44d\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022 data-id=\u00225179a5c37ead4224a7d4ff66905d4e50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225179a5c37ead4224a7d4ff66905d4e50\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. We\u2019ve had some terrible bills in the education space in recent times, and yet here we have another one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248d0384e5d7c41248be98433049a56c2\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: But wait, there\u2019s more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267bd5e11143f46c0a26df7335c2aaa7c\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s exactly right: wait, there\u2019s more. We\u2019ve got an education profession at the moment that is just disbelieving of how low things are getting in the sector and can\u2019t see that anything\u2019s going to lift anytime soon. This bill is yet another ideological attack on teachers and the education system as a whole. It undermines the independence of the teaching profession.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003EI want to actually start right now by saying a future Labour Government will repeal this bill. This is a fundamental shift about who has control in education and about who has the power\u2014and guess what! It isn\u2019t the teachers, it isn\u2019t the parents, and it isn\u2019t the kids. The kids who should be at the centre of the system are certainly not at the centre of this particular bill. This is a fundamental shift that puts the power plainly in the Beehive and into the hands of people that know little about the education system, but have reckons on what it will be. Just listening to that speech by the Minister, there wasn\u2019t one piece of evidence\u2014not one piece\u2014that backed up that particular speech that would show a difference within the sector that would raise achievement in our kids. This is, yet again, as I said, another ideological attack on how schools are supposed to operate. The implications for all who are involved in the schooling sector are huge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s talk really plainly here about what is at stake. Perhaps the most troubling things that the Minister talked about were the responsibility of the teaching standards, the registration criteria, the practising certificate criteria, and even the code of conduct moving from the Teaching Council to the Secretary for Education. No longer do we have a professional body that is being designed and co-designed with the sector themselves and working within their own professional realm. That has been taken completely away. What does that mean? That means that teaching standards become political instruments. That means that registration criteria can shift with the ideology of the Government of the day. Rather than being independent, as they are now, and being sought over and seen by the Teaching Council, they will be at the whim of the Government of the day. People on the opposite side can shake their head, but all they\u2019re shaking their head on is their own reckons, not on one single piece of evidence at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003EThe education system that we have held so strongly in this country\u2014and that, I will say, particularly in the indigenous area, is being held up as a gold standard around the rest of the world\u2014is at real risk, under this particular bill, of actually going backwards. That is a heartbreaking day to see what this Government is doing to our education system, purely based on their ideological reckons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003ECurriculum control under this bill shifts directly into the Beehive. No longer do we have a curriculum, according to this particular bill, that will be standardised across the country, because it talks about a differentiated curriculum based on school size, school location, and school type. What is that about? That doesn\u2019t even make sense to what we\u2019ve known in this country for so long. It has obviously been informed by people that know very little about education, full stop. The work that the Minister talked about, taking help and informing parents, is not co-design; that\u2019s being done to. It\u2019s not aligned with anything that we know in this country about curriculum, full stop. It is completely a backward step. This is centralised prescription dressed up as efficiency. Once again, I say that a future Labour Government will repeal all in this terrible, terrible education bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022c75ecd2344e24b329d2442a4062c7c6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c75ecd2344e24b329d2442a4062c7c6f\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E It seems like the Minister of Education has not learnt anything from her mistakes, and the mistake that she has made these past weeks is on exactly what it would be like if you piss off the education sector. It seems like we have a Minister who doesn\u2019t understand that the very basic of education is that you learn from your mistakes and you don\u2019t repeat them again. Yet here we are, having this bill, the Education and Training (System Reform) Amendment Bill, being introduced to the House. I love the fact that suddenly everyone in this House is a teacher. I would love to see your teaching qualifications. Show us some qualifications! Otherwise, please be quiet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ec4c75705e54d5499ab2c4f8ee2b085\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: And what are your qualifications?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea7af29cb2d94e36954c5b83b9fa2238\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: I actually think that having spent years teaching in a secondary school in an international school and also in a university would be sufficient, Mr Carl Bates, because, frankly, that is sufficient. You know what? If you don\u2019t like it, get a doctorate. I think they\u2019re great.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EIn terms of this, we have heard from the fact that the Teaching Council is going to have their power removed. We have seen already in the previous bill that the balance of scale is tipped towards ministerial appointees, but now we\u2019re seeing that has been further reduced from 13 members to between seven to nine members, with only three being from the sector. Most of them are going to be appointed by the Minister, and that is going to politicise the teaching profession. You could dress things up by saying, \u201CWe are seeing that things aren\u2019t performing.\u201D We are seeing the Minister using reports like TELUS 2024. Yet we also have a Minister who likes to cherry-pick information. She never highlights the actual issues in some of those reports but will only use certain data so she can push her own political agenda.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EShe is someone who, again, like I said, has no background in education and has never set foot in front of a classroom yet thinks that she is better than everyone else. I have said it before, and I\u2019ll say it again: it is sheer arrogance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220293e7512d7041a2beec1485832b2b6e\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And now we\u2019ll come back to the bill, because we\u2019re getting a little personal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae1fdee1ec2b4ddab47f37b6894f19c8\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: When it comes to this bill, there are also other things. We have the New Zealand School Properties Agency. Now, the problem we\u2019re finding with the School Properties Agency\u2014and this is something we will be looking into in the select committee stage\u2014is the fact that the School Properties Agency will come to your school and will make all of the changes and then bill you for it. We are not seeing the Minister increasing the operational fund for schools as a response to this. We\u2019re not seeing the Minister addressing the systematic and the longstanding deficit in the funding we\u2019re providing, so schools aren\u2019t able to do that. If you\u2019re interested, the operational fund this year was only increased by 1.5 percent according to the Budget, yet inflation is at 2.3\u00A0percent. Therefore, you\u2019re not actually increasing the operational funding; you\u2019re, in fact, reducing it by 0.8\u00A0percent, and that is according to the Government\u2019s own Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThe School Properties Agency is going to do all of this, yet we are not seeing them addressing the systematic\u2014the root cause of some of the issues. We\u2019re seeing this open slather allowing the corporatisation, even more than what we\u2019re seeing now, in terms of charter schools. We\u2019re seeing that the Minister can make even more directions around things in the curriculum so that you don\u2019t even need to consult the parents when it comes to health. Well, relationship and sexual education is facing some serious issues because, again, the Minister is being led by other political parties on how they are changing that particular curriculum. We\u2019re seeing an overreach going on with an even more punitive effect being done in terms of the Education Review Office. We\u2019re seeing with attendance that schools can\u2019t have the flexibility of knowing when people are not attending schools. Instead, there is a really prescribed way that you can mark when they are not attending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI\u2019m sorry, but I\u2019m really glad that the Minister comes from a community that doesn\u2019t have instances where a child is not attending school because their parent is dying from cancer in a hospital three towns away and that\u2019s why they\u2019re not attending. I\u2019m really happy that the Ministers from East Coast Bays and Epsom are not facing those kinds of challenges we\u2019re seeing in rural schools and rural communities. But these are the facts when you\u2019re talking to some of these schools on why students are not attending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ELastly, just to finish, the Minister wants to use the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA), but do you know what? You can do all of that, but 75 percent of people don\u2019t take PISA seriously. Students don\u2019t take PISA seriously. It is not a good measure. The Greens will not support this, because it\u2019s not robust.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u0022556c34d865f34c048c24d3c4480f70db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022556c34d865f34c048c24d3c4480f70db\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I was just listening to that speech, and there\u2019s a lot I could say, but the member Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan seemed to think it was a problem that the Minister is influenced by other parties in coalition. Now, think about this for a moment: the whole premise of the member\u2019s political party is that one party can influence another in coalition. This shows how a person can be very smart and very stupid all at the same time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EAs for his personal attacks on Erica Stanford, our Minister of Education\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b410dc5ba59f4775ac3f188db638471b\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Shameful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e83bcc0dc2024755bbb6d8392b38598c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014really quite shameful. But let me say this: Erica Stanford is reforming education for the better in this country and being more effective than that member ever will be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EBack on this bill. Changing school attendance exemptions is one of the things it does. It ensures that if a principal wants to exempt a student from attendance, they have to do it under guidelines set by the secretary, because the number one thing you can do to improve education is make sure that students are at school. This Government is serious about it. We have significantly improved educational attendance in the time we\u2019ve been in office, and you ain\u2019t seen nothing yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242bf88a8e45a47b1a3947dd7cdfbc7bc\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: You just cut our service\u2014you just cut it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227806bef02e5843279d3324ad451b1a37\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Then there\u2019s\u2014oh, Shanan Halbert says, \u201CYou just cut it.\u201D; actually, we just increased educational attendance funding by $140 million. Now, for a guy who thinks the solution to every problem is throwing money at it, I would have thought he\u2019d see that as an improvement. But we\u2019re doing more than that: we\u2019re changing the rules, we\u2019re getting people focused, we\u2019re putting in place the Stepped Attendance Response system, and we\u2019re ensuring that students are actually at school.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re making more improvements to our wonderful charter school model, which is announcing innovative school after innovative school in order that those who convert to charter standards have a pathway back, because you should be able to choose and the choice should work both ways. I think that is an exceptional improvement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll make a couple of comments about the property management changes. For too long, there\u2019s been a conflict between managing an education system and managing property within the Ministry of Education. Anyone who\u2019s an electorate MP or takes an interest in their community will know how bad that problem can get. Having a separate agency with the objective of managing the property portfolio, it creates a tension that is natural and sensible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EThere are changes to the Teachers Council to make it properly aligned with the objectives of the Government, on behalf of the people of New Zealand. As an electorate MP who has had people blocked from being teachers on spurious grounds, to the detriment of the community, these changes can\u2019t come fast enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EFinally, this bill transfers functions for private school and hostel regulation from the Ministry of Education to the Education Review Office. However, later this evening, the committee will consider the Education and Training (Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill, and these two bills together will ensure that the regulation of early childhood education is also moved to the Education Review Office in line with the findings of the Ministry for Regulation\u2019s early childhood education sector review, designed so that we will have a proper tension and separation between the policy shop, which is the Ministry of Education, and the regulator, which is the Education Review Office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EThis is a very positive set of changes that a busy Government that has the hearts and minds of New Zealand children front and centre in its agenda is making to ensure that we fix what matters for New Zealand. I just hope that the member on the other side from the Green Party can think a little bit about that, rather than his tawdry epithets that belittle him and this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5b8a4da68324d1cac4a97debf05eb50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5b8a4da68324d1cac4a97debf05eb50\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. The Minister of Education began by saying that it is essential that we have a world-leading education system. In fact, we\u2019ve just seen that this House has just passed a piece of legislation to say that is now the pre-eminent objective of our education system, and New Zealand First completely agrees with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EBut the problem is\u2014and we\u2019ve heard the opposition coming from the Opposition benches; effectively, a defence of the indefensible, a defence of the status quo. What we know at the moment is that our education system is failing. It\u2019s failing our teachers, it\u2019s failing our students, it\u2019s failing their parents, and it\u2019s failing our future. That is a real, real problem, and we need to do something about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First has always believed that education is a fundamental right and that every child should get access to quality education and, also, support. We heard from the Opposition benches that no more money\u2019s gone into the education system. What was it?\u2014$750-odd million went into support for the students that actually needed support. That is a significant investment that teachers have been crying out for, and you can bet your life that parents have been crying out for that for years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EEducation needs to ensure that our young people learn the skills that they need to be able to inquire, to be taught how to think, but not to be taught what to think. Education needs to prepare young New Zealanders for life, for work, and to be first-rate citizens, not just of New Zealand but first-rate citizens of the world\u2014something that we can be proud of, that they can be proud of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThe Minister has talked through the details of the bill, so I\u2019m not going to go through those at the moment, but I\u2019d really strongly encourage both the Opposition and the people who are going to make submissions on this bill to look in the mirror, to think about this, and to think about our young people, to think about their future, and to think about the future of this country, because, at the moment, our teacher education is failing. The Minister has laid that out very clearly. Attendance levels are poor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4f1ff0befb5430d9b8ead9d81b628dd\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the evidence for that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251120613e4c44ef6ae6ae4143c396fdb\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER\u003C/span\u003E: Still, they\u2019re improving\u2014great work is being done by the Minister, Minister Seymour, over there. Student capabilities are failing, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EOh, and then, of course, when it comes to property management, how much more efficient now is property management already under this Government to what it was under the last Government? We are making progress. Those are systemic issues, Dr Xu-Nan, that we are working on making improvements to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThe status quo as it is indefensible. We don\u2019t believe that the status quo should stay. This Government and this Minister are making excellent progress, and I look forward to submissions. I hope they are very considered submissions on what is good for the future of this country and our young people. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022602\u0022 data-id=\u0022e12424a61d4646cc96695994ed82b240\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e12424a61d4646cc96695994ed82b240\u0022\u003EORIINI KAIPARA (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014T\u0101maki Makaurau):\u003C/span\u003E E te P\u012Bka, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. I\u2019ll get straight to it. The Education and Training (System Reform) Amendment Bill does more than mess around with systems; it reaches directly into the whakapapa of our tamariki and mokopuna. Now, there\u2019s a proverb in te ao M\u0101ori that goes like this: \u201CKo te manu e kai ana i te miro, n\u014Dn\u0101 te ng\u0101here; ko te manu e kai ana i te m\u0101tauranga, n\u014Dn\u0101 te ao.\u201D In English, that translates to: \u201CThe bird that consumes the miro berry, theirs is the forest; the bird that feasts on knowledge, theirs is the world.\u201D Our babies\u2019 access to knowledge determines the world that they will inherit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022602\u0022\u003EThat is why I must speak clearly and courageously to all New Zealanders about the consequences this bill holds for M\u0101ori futures. The Minister and this Government claims that this bill is about improving the education system, but those in the sector\u2014the wh\u0101nau that we\u2019ve been speaking to on the daily and those who are succeeding in the current education model, especially M\u0101ori\u2014say otherwise. When we look closely, it is obvious: this bill tightens rules, centralises power, expands privatisation, and pushes M\u0101ori voices further to the margins. It claims to strengthen education, but for M\u0101ori, it strengthens the barriers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022602\u0022\u003EOne of the first changes they talk about is strengthening attendance expectations. That might sound simple, but we all know what this means for our wh\u0101nau: more pressure, more monitoring, and more judgment. Our wh\u0101nau are not keeping kids home because they don\u2019t value education. They are dealing with unstable housing, multiple jobs, overcrowded homes, transport costs, mental health pressures, disability barriers, and schools that often have no reo, no tikanga, and no cultural connection. Supported by research, tamariki attend and succeed in education when they feel safe, recognised, and valued. Attendance is a symptom, never the cause, but instead of supporting wh\u0101nau, this bill leans further into punishment. Once again, M\u0101ori become the target and not the priority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022602\u0022\u003EAnother major change is the creation of a new national property agency to control school buildings and land. Most people will skim over this, but M\u0101ori providers\u2014including k\u014Dhanga reo, puna reo, iwi-led learning centres\u2014know exactly how significant this is. Property access is already the single biggest barrier for M\u0101ori early learning. Our wh\u0101nau struggle to secure buildings, to make compliance, to upgrade facilities, because the system was never designed around M\u0101ori needs. Just ask Te Kura Kaupapa M\u0101ori \u0101 Rohe o M\u0101ngere, who are still waiting for their support and finances to renovate their buildings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022602\u0022\u003EProperty access, as I said, is already the single biggest barrier for M\u0101ori and early learning. Instead of empowering M\u0101ori to own, grow, and protect their own educational spaces, this bill creates yet another layer, another gatekeeper, and another Crown-controlled body that stands between M\u0101ori and the land we need to teach our kids. For us, a learning space is not just a building; it is a t\u016Brangawaewae, it is whakapapa, it is identity, and this bill shifts that power even further away from our hands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022602\u0022\u003ELast week, the Government removed Te Tiriti o Waitangi from our education system. They put profits over the wellbeing of our mokopuna with their ECE reforms, and passed the Regulatory Standards Bill to sideline Te Tiriti o Waitangi from all future legislation. What we\u2019re seeing here is a staged approach to the roll-out of the Regulatory Standards Bill in education by targeting the most vulnerable\u2014and who are they? Our tamariki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022602\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori believes that the role of education providers is to educate\u2014not to operate a business, clipping the ticket on the future of our mokopuna, based on right-wing ideology. We know that true success begins with knowing who you are, where you come from, and standing proudly in your reo, culture, and whakapapa. Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori will repeal this bill and will centre Te Tiriti o Waitangi in all aspects of our education system here in Aotearoa. All tamariki deserve high-quality education wherever they go to school, for them, for their future, and for all of our mana motuhake. We oppose this bill. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022 data-id=\u00223e2652838bfe4746877e4680e45b61b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e2652838bfe4746877e4680e45b61b6\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. For parents and caregivers and wh\u0101nau listening at home, one of the things that they ask, that teachers ask, that principals ask when I go into schools is \u201CCan we make education non-political?\u201D Watch this, this evening, and you can understand why we can\u2019t, because we have an Opposition that, regardless of the quality that we put forward, stand up to oppose. M\u0101ori education this year got $60 million for property development from a National-led Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022\u003EFor two terms, the Opposition couldn\u2019t sort out initial teacher education. We have 62\u00A0percent of teachers coming out of initial teacher education saying they don\u2019t feel equipped to teach. Did they do anything? No, they didn\u2019t. It is a National-led Government, once again, that is fixing education in this country. It\u2019s about time the Opposition got on board. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022 data-id=\u0022d450451b565344bda26557c354efbaa3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d450451b565344bda26557c354efbaa3\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E I think we might just turn the volume and the tone down a wee bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220eef39b06dd04121997c2ce0d44ba9af\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Might have to ask the man in the box!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bd7ce0c977f47f3b9d5dbe2cec31f2d\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! Thank you, Madam Speaker. I wanted to just make a few comments about the approach that has characterised this Government\u2019s stewardship of education in the two years that they\u2019ve been in office. This bill has a lot in common with a number of other reforms that we\u2019ve seen come through in recent times. It signals a shift in approach in our education system, from local control to centralised decision-making; from a system that is led by the teaching profession, by educationalists, to one that is led by politicians and the public servants and policy makers who report to them; from a system that is flexible to one that is highly prescriptive; from a spirit of partnership to one of compliance; from public to increasing privatisation; and from a value base of holistic wellbeing to, increasingly, one of measurable outputs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s very clear from the education policies of this Government that they regard teachers and the education sector as their ideological enemies. They are implacably hostile to the people who run our education system and who teach our children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EThe effect of what the Government is doing with these reforms goes far further than centralisation. I\u2019m not someone who always instinctively argues for decentralisation; in fact, I\u2019m probably more\u2014and have been\u2014of a centralist than most people in this Parliament. But the effect of the provisions in this bill and a number of other reforms that we\u2019ve seen from the Government recently are not just centralisation; they veer towards politicisation, and I\u2019m not sure that this country wants to see the education system that\u2019s responsible for teaching our kids increasingly politicised, where politicians are designing our curriculum, where politicians are setting the standards for how our children learn and what they learn. I think that is a dangerous road for us to go down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003ENo one in this House pretends that the education system is perfect. Yes, there are challenges. We probably differ on what the precise challenges are and what the solutions are. But we have benefited enormously from a public education system in this country that is led by the experts, the people who do the work, the people who get up every day and go to school or university or polytechs, or any number of other educational institutions, who teach for a living and who love teaching and who feel passionate about creating the best learning experience for our students. The philosophy that has underpinned our system for a long, long time is that they are the ones to be trusted and empowered to make the best decisions they can for our system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EThis bill, like so much else that we\u2019ve seen in this House recently, has the opposite philosophy. It is pulling key decision-making into the bureaucracy of central government, and, in a number of cases, into the Minister\u2019s office. I don\u2019t think that is something that the people of New Zealand generally want to see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EThis Government\u2019s approach to education more and more resembles a kind of Punch and Judy cartoon where the Government vilifies teachers, and paints itself as being the defender of the interests of parents in the system. It is a gross distortion and oversimplification. I would really urge the National Party members to think twice about these kind of reforms, because I don\u2019t think they are taking our country\u2019s education system where we want it to go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022 data-id=\u0022971ce89a7fc1498b9d979d60b9b50e0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022971ce89a7fc1498b9d979d60b9b50e0a\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to speak on the Education and Training (System Reform) Amendment Bill. There are many elements to this bill that have been well traversed. The thing that I am so excited to see is the property changes because, in my own electorate, I\u2019ve seen how long it can take to advocate for the right kind of property that\u2019s needed. Thankfully, thanks to a listening Minister, we now have 14 more classrooms coming to Cashmere High. I\u2019m very pleased with that. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022 data-id=\u00225612caeb6e4e49ed9e208650df4608c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225612caeb6e4e49ed9e208650df4608c1\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s disappointing, tonight, to have to speak again on another education and training bill that doesn\u2019t achieve better outcomes for learners. In the politicisation of Minister Stanford\u2019s approach to m\u0101tauranga education, at every step along the way, tamariki, \u0101konga, learners have not been at the centre of the debate in this House. Whether we look back to last week, when, suddenly, Te Tiriti was removed from boards of trustees, to charter schools\u2014that, in fact, when the Government says that they\u2019re all about achievement, their approach to education and training and legislative change does not achieve the outcome that they\u2019re talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that talks down our education system in this country. We have a great education system. Yes, we have areas that we need to improve, but anyone who thinks that our education system is at fault is actually factually incorrect. When the Associate Minister of Education, David Seymour, says that the way to raise achievement is to get our kids back to school, what does a community like mine do when in fact this Government just cancelled our attendance contract? It just cancelled it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EThe behaviour that we see from Government members tonight really shows that this is a Government under pressure. They\u2019ve got their backs up against the wall. I\u2019ve never seen a Government that hates teachers so much that they would take away their powers, that they would take away the rights, the acknowledgment of the profession, the capability, the evidence that educators provide, and say to them, \u201CWe know better\u2014and not only do we know better; we are going to change legislation to take it away from independent organisations, like the Teachers Council, and we\u2019re going to put it more into the Beehive.\u201D More decisions in our education system will be made by the Director of Education and by the Minister of Education, not by the profession themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that has taken away localism from our education system. This is a Government that removes the relationship and sexuality guidelines that schools asked for to create safe and inclusive schools for children that need that support, and communities that require it. I have to say, tonight, I am very clear that I will do everything that I can to ensure that Labour repeals this bill. It is an absolute attack on the profession\u2014an absolute attack on the teaching profession. It is ideological, it is politically motivated, and it does not have learners at the heart of their decision making, nor does it have any evidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EIn fact, in the regulatory impact statement (RIS), if Government members take the opportunity to read the RIS, it clearly says that there is a lack of evidence to support what\u2019s been put forward in this legislation\u2014a lack of evidence. There\u2019s no information there. There hasn\u2019t been any time for anyone to confirm and provide information to say that this is going to achieve the desired outcome. To the Government and Ministers: why are you rushing? Why are you not bringing the sector with you? That is very clear: because in their heads and in their approach\u2014and they\u2019ve demonstrated it tonight\u2014they think National knows best.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229a9c205f95fc4f5c8943b440b9f5cb1d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f980fa0cf1474e85911a2eb486ab16db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229a9c205f95fc4f5c8943b440b9f5cb1d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f980fa0cf1474e85911a2eb486ab16db\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take the final call on the first reading of this bill. I think that we just need to remember who the education system is actually there for. It\u2019s not there for the teacher unions, it\u2019s not there for teachers, and it\u2019s not there for parents. It\u2019s there for the students. What we\u2019re here for is to help provide an education system that delivers for the students. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220bd0bda41b3d4c59bc50bb3e33aa9949\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Education and Training (System Reform) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000715\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00226a7c69b27cd74f1685cfed006f3646e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a7c69b27cd74f1685cfed006f3646e3\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Education and Training (System Reform) Amendment Bill be considered by the Education and Workforce Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Education and Workforce Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223ec83eb3fb1646d083476c0b86fc86e3\u0022\u003EDefence (Workforce) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d7ad930503594ea6ae087f4bc1c42d8a\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022 data-id=\u002234af0292a5f347eeaf409526597cef9c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234af0292a5f347eeaf409526597cef9c\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Defence (Workforce) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to thank Tim van de Molen, chair of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, and, indeed, the entire committee for their careful consideration of this bill. After careful deliberation, including a review of 37 submissions, the committee has recommended that the bill be passed with no changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EThe committee raised some important points in their report, which I will address in a moment. But, first, I would like to remind the House of the reasons why this bill is needed. In a deteriorating strategic environment, New Zealand needs a defence force that can respond quickly and with agility; a force that is combat-capable, interoperable, and ready to do whatever is asked of it, whether that be to respond in the aftermath of a natural disaster or to deploy offshore with our partners. To do this, we rely on the Defence Force\u2019s hard-working, highly trained sailors, soldiers, and aviators, who together make up the armed forces, but we also rely on the New Zealand Defence Force\u2019s (NZDF\u2019s) professional and skilled civilian staff. This is a common-sense bill. Its focus is on ensuring national security and the delivery of core defence outputs is maintained if civilian staff in the NZDF take industrial action. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EThis bill makes two sets of changes for two different groups. I want to be clear about these differences in order to avoid any misunderstandings. The first set of changes relates to when the armed forces are used to conduct the work of NZDF civilian staff\u2014that\u2019s their colleagues within the Defence Force itself. In this area, the bill makes the more substantive change. When the NZDF civilian staff take industrial action\u2014which they are entitled to do\u2014that can cause gaps and pressures which can stand in the way of the Defence Force, as a whole, being ready and able to deliver whatever New Zealand needs whenever it needs it. The Defence Act 1990 allows the Minister of Defence to authorise the armed forces to conduct the work of striking NZDF civilian staff, but the current mechanism is too limited and impractical. The current mechanisms do not account for the breadth of tasks that NZDF civil staff undertake and the potential impact on New Zealand\u2019s defence and security if these activities are stopped. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EThe bill amends the Defence Act 1990 so that the Minister can authorise military personnel to conduct the work of striking NZDF civilian staff, but only when (a) there is industrial action taking place, and (b) there are reasonable grounds to consider that an authorisation is required, either to avoid prejudice in national security or the ability to deliver core defence outputs, or (c) where necessary because of health or safety. The Minister must specify in writing the period of the authorisation, which cannot extend beyond the period of the industrial action. To support parliamentary scrutiny, Parliament would be notified that an authorisation had been given and the reasons for giving it. Effective members of civilian staff and their union would also be informed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EThe second set of changes relate to when military personnel are used to conduct the work of Public Service employees outside of the NZDF. This provision already exists in the Defence Act 1990, and the bill makes only procedural changes. Clause 4 amends the Defence Act to increase the number of days an authorisation for military personnel to perform the role may last, from 14 days to 30 days. An extension beyond this would still require a resolution of the House, and so the opportunity to debate that extension remains. A minor amendment is also made to ensure that if an authorisation expires when Parliament is not sitting, it will automatically extend to the next sitting day, when Parliament is able to consider whether an extension is merited. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019ll turn to some points considered by the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee. Firstly, the committee considered whether the changes would reduce Parliament\u2019s oversight. The bill does remove the requirement for the House to debate the extension to an authorisation when the military personnel are conducting the work of NZDF civilian staff. I do not shy away from this. I consider this as akin to the process of an employer being able to use other members of their own staff to cover the work of striking colleagues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EMembers of the armed forces and the NZDF civilian staff work alongside each other every day, working together on the common goal of protecting and defending New Zealand. I do not know of any other employers that have to go through the hoop of parliamentary approval simply to use one member of staff to conduct the work of another who is striking for an extended period of time. It is simply not necessary for the House to have a role in approving extensions of this kind of authorisation. It is not a good use of limited House time for something which in any other organisation is routine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EI accept that some members may continue to hold strong views about this, and so I want to reiterate that the bill does maintain parliamentary visibility of authorisations and to do this by requiring the Minister to notify the House if an authorisation is given and the reasons for giving it. Members will have the information they need, should they wish to raise this with the Minister of Defence at oral questions or to bring it to the attention of the House in another way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003ETo clarify again, the bill maintains the current role of Parliament in approving an extension to an authorisation for the use of the armed forces to conduct the work of Public Service employees. This is important because the use of the armed forces outside military settings should never be taken lightly, and so maintaining an approval role for Parliament here is appropriate if the armed forces are undertaking this work for a sustained period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003ESecondly, the committee considered whether the bill should define certain terms, particularly \u201Cnational security\u201D and \u201Ccore defence outputs\u201D. I will discuss these in turn. Defining \u201Cnational security\u201D would be inconsistent with our existing statutory approach. New Zealand has typically adopted an approach which aligns with many of our closest partners, who also do not include a definition in legislation so as not to constrain the ability to respond to new or emerging threats. Instead, we take the view that the interpretation of \u201Cnational security\u201D should rely on formulations that sit outside of legislation in key strategic documents, such as the New Zealand National Security Strategy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EThe committee also considered the criteria of \u201Ccore defence outputs\u201D. This criteria stated in full is \u201Cto avoid prejudicing \u2026 the ability and/or readiness of the Armed Forces to perform specific operational activities that are integral to core defence outputs;\u201D. This contains multiple elements that must be satisfied before it can apply. This could include activities essential to maintaining the NZDF\u2019s ability and readiness for deployment or operations, such as responding to expected or unexpected events in New Zealand or overseas requiring military capacity tasks under security treaties or UN agreements, or emergency management. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EFinally, the committee considered whether the bill would negatively impact the collective bargaining and industrial action of the civilian staff. Let me be clear: industrial action by members of the civil staff absolutely has an impact on the NZDF, now and in the future. Using armed forces to conduct the work of civil staff means that they are not able to perform their regular duties. The Chief of Defence Force does not have enough staff to take these decisions lightly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EI know that the NZDF will continue to work hard through negotiation discussions to avoid industrial action coming about in the first place, but if it does occur, let there be no doubt that any disruption imposes a cost to the NZDF. This bill does not prevent industrial action. What it does is balance the right of NZDF civilian staff to take industrial action with New Zealand\u2019s very much defence needs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003ESeparately, the bill makes minor changes to the existing process for allowing the armed forces to undertake the role of striking public servants. It safeguards national security and operational readiness. The Chief of Defence Force needs the flexibility to manage the NZDF workforce to ensure that those core defence activities can continue to take place where necessary, even when parts of its workforce are taking industrial action, and the bill makes sure that when the military personnel are required to take on essential tasks during industrial action, provisions are practical and fit for purpose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EIn these increasingly challenging times, we need to make sure that legislation that supports our soldiers, sailors, and aviators to protect and defend New Zealand\u2019s interests is sensible and pragmatic. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00225ce633c585bb4920b6377034c25a03ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ce633c585bb4920b6377034c25a03ca\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9d3a74c5965408eb16340a3b9aef5b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9d3a74c5965408eb16340a3b9aef5b2\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I start my contribution in the second reading of this bill, the Defence (Workforce) Amendment Bill, by acknowledging our New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) personnel here and abroad who continue to work hard, represent our country well, and serve the communities here and around the world. They do a fantastic job, not only in the day-to-day operations that they involve themselves in but also flying the flag for New Zealand as ambassadors of our country and ambassadors of a highly reputable New Zealand Defence Force in our communities at home there. I want to start by acknowledging our NZDF personnel. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EI want to make very clear that we can do this while also continuing to represent the clear views of the Labour Party, which is around the rights of the worker, which is around making sure that those people who work in the civilian roles\u2014as highlighted by the Minister; the crucial civilian roles\u2014continue to have the opportunity not only to take civil action in representing themselves through making sure that they receive a fair go, if you will, but also in making sure that they can continue to be acknowledged for the important work that they do with the NZDF. We are the Labour Party; we stand up for those people. We want to make sure that those people can have that opportunity, and the Minister has set out a few matters that I\u2019ll come to throughout the entirety of my speech and understand that we will be going through the process of the committee of the whole and into the third and final reading of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EThe Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, a very good and hard-working committee, generally look at the vast majority of its work in a very multipartisan way. We all tend to try and be rather collegial and look towards making sure we advance the best interests of this country, so I want to acknowledge the committee. The Minister did, rightly, point out that we in the Opposition offered a number of opportunities or avenues for the Minister to consider. That might be a way of making sure that we continue to work together on something so important but also trying to be helpful and making sure that we can strengthen this particular bill moving forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EI want to be very clear. When this Government signalled its Public Service cuts, we asked not just this Minister but this Government whether or not those cuts would have a significant impact on the NZDF and its operations. At the time, we were told no, yet here we are amending a bill, making it very clear that the Government is looking for a \u201Cget out of jail free\u201D card\u2014a plan B, if you will\u2014to say \u201COh well, we\u2019ll change the law to make it easier\u201D, just in case industrial action is taken not only by those NZDF civilian staff but also by the wider public sector who, as we\u2019ve already seen, have continued to protest many of the actions of this Government. We\u2019ve had a number of bills already in the House looking at our teachers. We know our health sector is under pressure and on its knees and have continued to protest against the actions of this Government. And now what we\u2019re doing here today in this bill is saying that, for certain parts of those sectors who do take industrial action, it\u2019ll be OK for the NZDF to backfill those roles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003ENow, let me just remind the House again, we asked this Government whether or not it would have an impact\u2014we were told no. Yet here we are changing the law, making it somewhat easier, or the process easier, for those decisions to be made. I made a contribution earlier in this House too, today, about one of the things that we\u2019re always keeping an eye for on this side of the House, which is, in our view, minimising democratic processes. We\u2019re very clear when there\u2019s a reason for matters such as this to come back to the House, for the House to have an opportunity to debate these matters. It\u2019s there for a reason. It\u2019s there to make sure that for such an important sector in our country, such as NZDF and the civilian staff that support them, this House gets the opportunity to debate that. It gets the opportunity to continue to make sure that we are all in support of the crucial role that our NZDF people play in our country and how they might be able to support this country\u2019s aspirations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re also very clear, too, as the Minister pointed out in her speech, that there are some areas where we talk about the national security interests, also health and safety. We were quite clear on this side of the House, asking the Minister and members of the committee, \u201CIf we know what those provisions are, and we\u2019re very clear on what they are, let\u2019s make sure we are clear on that\u201D so that it isn\u2019t just an open door to be able to allow them to backfill in positions or in roles that actually they shouldn\u2019t be doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve got a number of amendments that we\u2019ll look towards putting for the House\u2019s consideration during the committee of the whole House, to make sure that it isn\u2019t just a carte blanche approach to making sure that NZDF personnel can just backfill any old position. We\u2019ve heard the Minister speak towards national interest and health and safety. We want to explore that a little bit more and be very explicit about saying, \u201COK, that\u2019s fine, but make sure that they can\u2019t do what would otherwise be termed as clerical or administrative roles.\u201D If that\u2019s the purpose of this bill, to make sure that we can continue to remain operationally ready, we can continue to support health and safety, we can also continue to support the national security interests of this country, that\u2019s fine. We support that too, but we want to make sure that it isn\u2019t just pushing people into administration or clerical roles, because we don\u2019t believe, for the most part, that is in the best interests of the NZDF personnel or this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EWe also will be promoting a number of other amendments that will speak to some other smaller, minor, technical bits that the Minister has spoken to in her speech. But I want to make very clear that on this side of the House, we do support the rights of workers. We are the Labour Party. That\u2019s who we stand for, and those who did submit, those unions that did submit on this particular bill were very clear about that. They were very passionate about making sure that those rights continue to remain. Let\u2019s be very clear: it was their view that the rights of workers right across this country have been beat down, have been kicked in the guts, and been taken for granted by this Government. They made that very clear in their submission, and we sat through those submissions. We engaged with the unions. I want to point out that the NZDF, in the consideration of this particular bill, did not proactively engage with the unions. In fact, it says it in their report here\u2014they give a reason for it in the report\u2014that it wasn\u2019t in the interests of those who might consider taking industrial action. To my view, that\u2019s just not good enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EWe know that these people are represented by unions, have been for a long time and in fact those unions, for a number of years, even in my time as a defence Minister, were keen to engage with either the Minister or other members of the House\u2014and, in particular, the NZDF leadership. We\u2019ve seen already that those submitters could only find their voice during this particular process. One would have thought that, in order to support those important NZDF civilian roles that we\u2019ve heard the Minister speak of this evening, they might be a bit more open to engaging with the union on important matters that affect them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EWe do oppose this bill, and I can say as a former defence Minister, having looked across the wide scope of what it is that the NZDF does, one of the other concerns that I do have is it was raised with me and a number of my predecessors that the Defence Act of 1990 is like that beach bach where you keep putting a lean to on a lean to, on a lean to. All of a sudden, you think that it\u2019s going to cater for everybody, and then there\u2019s a leak. The point of that is the Defence Act does actually need, in my view, a considerable overhaul. We can\u2019t keep just making these amendments or these, you know, changes to the Act just here and there. As I said, it\u2019s just putting a lean to on a lean to, and before you know it, it\u2019s leaking and the carpet\u2019s wet, and we\u2019ve got a bigger problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s something I want to leave on the floor for the Minister and this Government to consider\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a44ea13ed3564f959fc6ed3af74fd6e2\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: On the soggy floor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b541a80133884d90a95b151a21cf5cef\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: On the wet carpet, if you will, to make sure that we have a look at making sure that legislation is fit for purpose. There are lots of things that have changed, but what we do know about the NZDF in this country is they always stand ready to serve. They serve our communities well, even when it\u2019s unexpected, such as the weather events and other matters, such as COVID, that impact this country. The NZDF have always served our country well. Let\u2019s make sure they can do that with an Act that supports them well and isn\u2019t simply just a piecemeal approach to supporting them in the important work that they do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EWe oppose this bill. We will be putting forward some amendments for the Minister and this Government to consider, and we look forward to the next stages of this bill in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u00226f37c8d420c8488bb2e6a8f69cfc1e98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f37c8d420c8488bb2e6a8f69cfc1e98\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Greens to speak to the Defence (Workforce) Amendment Bill. I think, through the journey of this bill as it came through the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, there were a lot of learnings that I personally had\u2014and, I think, this committee, as a whole, had\u2014as we began to understand exactly what the conditions are of the workforce. I think a number of us were surprised at the number of civilian personnel that are employed in these roles; I think the numbers were around about 3,000, and around 1,000 of those are unionised workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s important that is understood: that when they\u2019re doing civilian roles, that\u2019s civilian work and they should have all the rights that everybody else has when they\u2019re doing those civilian roles; different if you\u2019re in the military personnel as well. If you\u2019re in the military personnel, as expected\u2014you\u2019re working for the army or you\u2019re working for the air force, or whatever\u2014there\u2019s a strict hierarchy that you have to go through because that\u2019s what you signed up for. I mean, that is clearly understood as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s also really important to understand the genesis of this bill as well. Not only was I surprised at the number of civilian personnel working in our armed forces but also the roles that they did and the expectation that if you do those roles that you should be able to have all of the other rights that other people have, like the right to strike, for example. In 2024, New Zealand Public Service Association (PSA) members, in particular in the New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) civilian staff roles, when they were negotiating their pay, what they were offered was a zero pay offer. That\u2019s what they were offered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EWe all understand we\u2019re living in the cost of living crisis, right? This House talks about that all the time. Everybody\u2019s feeling the pinch, especially workers, and we just look around this country, the unprecedented number of strikes that we\u2019re seeing. There are firefighters, teachers, nurses, support staff as well. We know that everybody is feeling the pinch and that people are offering pay increases below the rate of inflation. If you show up to the bargaining table and the offer is zero pay, you look around for the different options that you have to be able to\u2014as your right\u2014find different ways to make action. That\u2019s what these workers did. At the time, the Minister of Defence responded by using her powers under section 9 of the Defence Act 1990 to authorise the use of the armed forces to provide services at these NZDF sites.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EThis is the situation that we\u2019re finding ourselves in. It\u2019s an attempt to stop the ability for workers to be able to access their rights, and I think this is what should be of great concern to this House. We\u2019ve seen that with the partial pay strikes. We\u2019ve seen that with the fair pay agreements going out the window. We saw what happened with the 33 pay equity claims as well. I think it\u2019s important to see this bill in the context of all those things as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EAt the heart, this bill weakens the right to strike by allowing striking civilian staff to be replaced with uniformed personnel, not just when there is a risk to health and safety, when there is a threat to national security, but, effectively, in any circumstance. Workers engaging in lawful strikes are entitled to take effective industrial action and it is an important bargaining tool and a legitimate expression of the industrial power of working people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EJust to remind people: we\u2019re hiring these civilian people to do these, as civilians; they deserve all of the rights that they have. Workers engaging in lawful strikes are entitled to take industrial action as an important bargaining tool and a legitimate expression of the industrial power of working people. The ability for the Government to replace striking workers with uniformed personnel will always be controversial and should only be used in the rarest of occasions, if ever. That is why the law currently provides for clear limitations and democratic guardrails, including parliamentary approval for extended use of uniformed personnel to fill the civilian roles during industrial action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EThere were a number of submissions that came to the select committee. I think, as a select committee, we work relatively collegially. I think generally the other side of the House will say something, I don\u2019t agree with it, we agree to disagree and we kind of work our way through it. As opposed to some other select committees, where we don\u2019t agree with each other and it\u2019s all on. I do appreciate being able to agree to disagree, and, in this case, we are disagreeing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eac32f149d894fa0ac22ecceb7393316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a414192a903b4fefa263cb0ece13aacb\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: I agree with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3931348914b401bb27e3ca1148a8a28\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s agreeing to disagree with my agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EThere are a number of themes that submitters brought to the select committee. One of them was around concerns about removing parliamentary oversight, and I do note that was talked about by the previous two speakers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EThere were concerns that the bill would enable the military to encroach on civilian life. One of the submitters\u2014and this is the PSA; I think that\u2019s a really, really, good strong submission. I would encourage the public to go out there and to read that. I remember part of that submission; they said that they had talked to military personnel who, of course didn\u2019t want to be identified in any way, were worried that this would cause friction in the tearoom, right? We can say these military personnel are going to do these civilian roles, but what does that practically look like? When you\u2019re going into the morning tearoom, you\u2019re going to have people that are doing your jobs or this other sort of thing. Some of these people actually spoke to the union; this is part of their submission that said that this would create an awkward situation, this will create friction as well. I think that\u2019s something for this House to be mindful of as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s important that the workers in this particular case were using all the legitimate tools that they could find. They were offered a zero pay offer. These were the actions that they were able to take as well, and they took effective action and they won. Winding back those rights, I think, is the wrong thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EA couple of the other submitters brought up potential breaches of New Zealand\u2019s international obligations. Submitters raised concerns that the bill would undermine or frustrate or breach New Zealand\u2019s obligations under the International Labour Organization conventions 87 and 98, which relate to freedom of association, the right to strike, and the ability to organise and collectively bargain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EJust noting the contribution from the Council of Trade Unions, who commented that the right to strike should not be disturbed unless there are clear and good reasons for doing so. They cited the Employment Court judgment in Secretary for Justice v New Zealand Public Service Association. I think that\u2019s an important point, because we get the arguments around our national security; the arguments around emergencies as well. But there was another component that is part of this legislation which also involves core defence outputs, I think it is. Maybe one of the other side could correct me on it\u2014no, it is core defence outputs as well, which is basically anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EPreviously, there\u2019s an argument about what national security is and I think that\u2019s an important discussion for us to have: what is in the national interest, what isn\u2019t in the national interest. Let\u2019s discuss what that is and whether we should be withdrawing the right to strike from those particular workers as well. Emergency situations; I can understand that as well. But what is actually core defence outputs? Well, it could be anything, actually, and that, I think, is a problem. I think we should have discussions about that through the committee of the whole House stage as well, to really figure out: what does that actually mean? Is it clerical work? Is it\u2014who knows? That was one of the other core concerns that submitters brought up as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003ESubmitters have also talked about how this would negatively impact morale and the effectiveness of the NZDF as well. Who wants to be a strikebreaker? You\u2019ve got your mates that you work with, civilian or military. I mean, those are the labels that we give them, but if they\u2019re all walking down the same hallway, the next thing you know: \u201CWell mate, I\u2019m just\u2014they\u2019ve given me a zero offer here and I\u2019m trying to feed my kids, to keep the lights on, and you\u2019re not going to allow me to do this strike.\u201D It puts them in an awkward situation. That\u2019s what this does as well. I think this is what the House needs to turn its mind to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003ETherefore, on that basis, the Greens will not be supporting this bill. This bill is another example of strikebreaking. It is an example of this Government not taking workers seriously. It fits right into the context of all the work that they\u2019ve been doing undermining workers\u2019 rights, whether that\u2019s getting rid of fair pay agreements, bringing back 90-day trials. The workers can see that for what that is, not to mention all the mucking around with the Employment Relations Authority as well. This bill is not a good bill and I do not commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229ea8d231f4e948c19f942d51a4ae19bf\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8ea1c0727684c83bececd723074772e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ea8d231f4e948c19f942d51a4ae19bf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8ea1c0727684c83bececd723074772e\u0022\u003ELAURA McCLURE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eac32f149d894fa0ac22ecceb7393316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022167909ff201a476197d6e9c44b566bbf\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: Hope this is better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ea8d231f4e948c19f942d51a4ae19bf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216c14d05a62240bebb0015baae84af48\u0022\u003ELAURA McCLURE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ea8d231f4e948c19f942d51a4ae19bf\u0022\u003EI would also like to give a shout-out to the men and women in the Defence Force that do an excellent job at keeping us safe. Really, this bill is about keeping us safe. It\u2019s very sensible that we would expect our sites\u2014our Defence Force sites\u2014to be secure and safe. In no way, shape, or form does this actually stop the ability for industrial action. Anyone at home might think that may be the case, but that is not the case. Any type of industrial action is actually highly disruptive to the Defence Force; there\u2019s a lot of planning and time that goes into that. That alone is still there, and there is still an ability for people to take that action. It\u2019s a really small change; it\u2019s just extending the time frames for the Chief of Defence Force, and the Minister, to make sure that we cover periods when this House isn\u2019t sitting. It\u2019s really sensible, so I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae23a75634144b5aaf040428a8453785\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae23a75634144b5aaf040428a8453785\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E I stand on behalf of New Zealand First to speak in favour of the Defence (Workforce) Amendment Bill. I thank the member from ACT\u2014Laura McClure\u2014who brought us back to reality around the fact that this is not removing the ability to take industrial action, and perhaps we need to repeat that again: it does not remove the ability to take industrial action. It is very simple that we have\u2014particularly in the current climate; a highly volatile global environment where we expect defence to be able to do its job at all times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022\u003EFor those of us who have worked with sworn and non-sworn personnel, there is no conflict. There is a common goal. There is an ability to work together and understand differences, and to take industrial action does not undermine the relationship between defence personnel and civilian personnel. They have a common objective, and they work for defence because they believe in their common objective of serving their country. To suggest that this bill would in any way undermine the relationship between civilian and defence personnel is just a total fantasy. This is about ensuring that New Zealand can continue to protect itself, allow civilian action to be taken when they need to take it, but, at its core, it is about ensuring defence can continue to do its job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022\u003EDefence personnel don\u2019t want to fill civilian positions, but they will always and ultimately put the defence of this country first. That is what we need as a nation, and this is a practical, obvious step to ensure that we can do this. As the Minister of Defence has pointed out, any other organisation has the ability to shift staff around to manage through industrial action. It is common practice. It does not undermine the ability of any organisation to have industrial action taken. This is exactly what this bill is doing: it is allowing defence to do exactly what every other organisation does in times of industrial action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022\u003EIt is a practical, common-sense piece of legislation. It will ensure that our defence facilities and our borders and our personnel can remain protected and looked after, which is a priority along with our assets\u2014our expensive defence assets\u2014being able to be protected no matter what the situation with industrial relations. It is absolutely disingenuous to stand here and say that we really stand up for our defence personnel and we thank them for the wonderful job they do and then deny them a tool to actually continue to do what they do in the period when there\u2019s industrial action. It is just disingenuous to say that we\u2019re standing up for defence personnel but we\u2019re not going to let them defend their assets or defend their staff or defend their personnel or defend their functions in times of industrial action. This is a quick and easy remedy to resolve that situation. It does not remove any opportunity to take industrial action. Therefore, New Zealand First commends the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9b857bc52734935a2e72d0fe58127ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9b857bc52734935a2e72d0fe58127ab\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call\u2014Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022 data-id=\u0022291f11cf3def45028e9b398601ad6910\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022291f11cf3def45028e9b398601ad6910\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. You know what\u2019s disingenuous? It\u2019s Government politicians thanking the New Zealand Defence Force for their work, while, at the very same time, pushing forward legislation that literally undermines their bargaining power when it comes to their pay and conditions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EThe reality is that this bill is about undermining bargaining power for the New Zealand Defence Force, particularly civilians within it. While the member prior to me, the Hon Casey Costello, may have said that this is not about preventing those civilians within the Defence Force from striking, the bill does take away one of the most effective tools when it comes to workers fighting for decent pay and safe working conditions, which is the withdrawal of labour. Effectively, the Government is creating a tool, with less accountability for them, to put military personnel in place of civilian staffers in the Defence Force when they often will be seeking better pay and conditions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EI think those Government politicians defending this bill may want to query as to whether the civilian Defence Force, that have raised issues in relationship to their pay and their conditions, were wrong. It\u2019s quite different to say, \u201CWell, there may be a bargaining process that needs to be undertaken.\u201D Sure, we recognise\u2014even in the Greens, who are often out there supporting striking workers\u2014that those decisions to strike are not taken lightly; it\u2019s different to say that we have a process for those workers to fight for decent paying conditions. To then go and push forward with a bill that\u2014effectively, what it does is it removes a democratic check on decisions by Government to basically have the military Defence Force fill in those civilian roles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EI took part in the debate, not that long ago, when the Minister of Defence chose to extend the period in which the military Defence Force would be filling those civilian roles as a result of industrial election. What was clear to me is that it is important, in our democracy, when we have military personnel filling civilian roles, that we actually take the time to debate it, for the public to be adequately informed, and for those checks and balances to be put in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EI also want to raise the issue, in the current context, that the civilian Defence Force does play a really important role in protecting us when, for example, natural disasters strike. The reality that we have right now\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eac32f149d894fa0ac22ecceb7393316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022475811306eb24e41986b4bbd09603cbb\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: They can\u2019t deploy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c23af1d1fafc4fde9f85a4792295dc5e\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: They can\u2019t what?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eac32f149d894fa0ac22ecceb7393316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022202ee09114fb40da9d04636a5709978f\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: No, they don\u2019t. You don\u2019t understand what the Defence Force does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243465cd4a4574e4087d4c9e8168e7b79\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Well, I\u2019ll wait for the member who made famous YouTube videos on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229c26f8b06b74273a0c768ccdda5662b\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Civilians don\u2019t deploy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270f1212ee4114c8c972ac0a3c889e3bc\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: But they don\u2019t necessarily\u2014did I use the word \u201Cdeploy\u201D? No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eac32f149d894fa0ac22ecceb7393316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240625560ab4a4fba87cd7013a2a31190\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: How are they going to help if they\u2019re not deploying?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220234f2ab0ab04a10960b63d0ef3decee\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, according to the National member, they don\u2019t seem to help at all, so I\u2019m looking forward to the member talking about the contributions of the civilian Defence Force and how important they are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EEffectively, what this bill does is that it allows the Minister to have one less level of accountability in Parliament. I think what was really telling, as well, throughout the debate, is that members could not identify the problem with the status quo; they just talked about how this is a common-sense bill. But, for example, the member prior to me was not able to articulate what the problem is with having an adequate parliamentary check for when the Minister chooses to extend the time in which those roles are going to be filled with military personnel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EWe did hear from the unions and the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee about their concerns of how this would undermine the bargaining process, and I think that is an incredibly fair point. I think the Government members, in this House, who seek to actually justify this bill need to explain how exactly this does not undermine\u2014in any way, shape, or form\u2014the ability for civilians within the Defence Force to actually bargain for better pay and conditions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EThe other issue that we have, as well, is that if the Government wasn\u2019t ramming through so many pieces of legislation via urgency, I don\u2019t think they would find the current processes that we have in place so onerous or such a big barrier. The reality is that in terms of time in Parliament that these most debatable moments take, it\u2019s not huge or substantive. If the Government wasn\u2019t seeking to ram through so many pieces of legislation through urgency, it would not take such a huge proportion of time within Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EThe reality is that this bill only seeks to undermine workers, and it\u2019s part of a trend of Government actions that have sought to undermine the pay, the conditions, and the bargaining power of workers across the country; the latest ones to be affected by a piece of legislation are the civilian Defence Force. I commend the words of my colleague Teanau Tuiono, who explained, through his participation in the select committee, as to why the Greens are not supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220163f493865845b2aeb9c30858584495\u0022 data-id=\u00226772bf12882a4379b2f1570c4ac3dcdd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220163f493865845b2aeb9c30858584495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226772bf12882a4379b2f1570c4ac3dcdd\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I think anyone watching this will realise that was a typical Green Party contribution where the wokeness comes through. They dislike the military being able to do military functions and would rather have them disbanded until it comes to the point where they actually need some support and then they\u2019ll be crying foul and wanting help. That member\u2019s contribution showed that he was clearly out of his depth in terms of the content of what he was talking about. In fact, he\u2019d be out of his depth in a car park pothole, I suppose. Ultimately, it\u2019s quite clear that this bill makes simple changes to ensure, primarily, we can maintain national security at all times, a critical function of our Defence Force, and, indeed, to ensure that operational readiness is maintained as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220163f493865845b2aeb9c30858584495\u0022\u003EI want to take a moment to thank all our current serving personnel in the Defence Force for the work they constantly do\u2014turning up day in and day out. Now, this does not take away the ability to strike. We\u2019ve heard that; we\u2019ve covered it in detail. Ultimately, it\u2019s a practical change that ensures we can maintain national security. That is the critical factor here. The rest of it is just garbage. I commend this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022 data-id=\u0022be3cabdb4bca44489e310cd28e2bffdb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be3cabdb4bca44489e310cd28e2bffdb\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Just like my colleague the Hon Peeni Henare, I\u2019d like to take the opportunity, in the start of my speech, to acknowledge our New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) members both here in New Zealand and overseas, and the fantastic work that they do to support us and to support our national security. We are very fortunate to have a well-thought-of defence force in this country, who are pretty world leading in many respects, for the work that they do, and it would be remiss of me if I didn\u2019t take the opportunity to acknowledge that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003EAs my colleague has pointed out and said here earlier, we as the Labour Party find ourselves in a position where we won\u2019t be, at this point, supporting this bill. There are so many grey areas that are in the bill as it stands at the moment. I\u2019ve read through the bill, and I know it\u2019s only a short bill. It seems like it\u2019s only a few pages. Maybe that\u2019s the problem: that it is only a few pages long and that it hasn\u2019t actually highlighted enough what some of the phrases mean within the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003EThose people that have read it from the other side of the House and other parties on this side of the House might think that they know what is in there and what it\u2019s talking about, but, from our perspective, we might have a different viewpoint and it\u2019s really important that we actually come to the same conclusion on what some of those phrases mean. I know that my colleague has, as he said to the Minister of Defence in his speech, some amendments that he will be putting forward in the committee of the whole House stage for nothing other than to actually clear up the grey areas that exist in the bill at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003EI read through the departmental report from the select committee process and, as this is the second reading of this bill, it would, again, be remiss not to talk about what happened in the select committee. I do acknowledge the work of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, giving the analysis and looking at this bill with the seriousness and the depth that they did. I noticed that they had 38 written submissions on the bill. Three submissions were received from non-governmental organisations and 35 were from individuals, which I thought was a pretty amazing ratio, there, of individuals to organisations. Out of those 38, one submitter supported the bill and 35 submitters opposed the bill. One submitter expressly stated that they neither supported nor opposed the bill, and one submitter did not provide a clear view about supporting or opposing the bill. That\u2019s come directly from the departmental report, and I thought that we haven\u2019t actually heard that here this evening, but seeing as we are talking in the second reading, it is important that we do bring this up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003ESome of the reasons why so many submitters did oppose this bill have been outlined by other speakers here this evening, but some of the ideas that came through were about the restrictions that could be put on civilian members and their right to strike. As my colleague has already pointed out, we are the Labour Party, so the name is on the tin. We do actually stand up for workers and we do hold very, very clear to that, so we need to make certain that is not being taken away and that is clearly something that is of right, and that the backfilling that happens in those areas by the Defence Force is authentic and that is not something that is happening because of job losses that have happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003EAs my colleague pointed out\u2014we\u2019ve asked the Minister multiple times\u2014when there were job cuts, would that have a meaningful impact on the NZDF personnel to either deploy or to do their job? The Minister said it wouldn\u2019t, but now all of a sudden the Government\u2019s trying to backfill those civilian roles with NZDF personnel to make sure that they can continue the very basics of those functions. Those are things that we will be prosecuting through the committee of the whole House stage as well. I know that\u2019s something that we haven\u2019t had a clear steer on in the select committee process, so it\u2019s really important that we make certain that we discuss that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003EOne of the areas that I was really concerned about when I read the bill coming through from the select committee was when I talked about those grey areas earlier. It talked about areas such as the most important roles of the Defence Force\u2014but what does that mean? Maybe that\u2019s the people that are in the civilian areas and it\u2019s important that they\u2019re working to deploy the ship\u2014but what are those roles? They\u2019re not being highlighted out. It\u2019s really important that we know exactly what they are, because there\u2019ll be others in there that aren\u2019t quite so important, but it\u2019s kind of been left up in the air as it is at the moment in how it\u2019s been written in that particular bill, so it\u2019s really important that those are the sorts of things that are highlighted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003EThen it goes on about backfilling when public servants from other areas outside of defence go on strike. One of the areas that has been used as an example in this is Corrections, but it doesn\u2019t narrow it solely to Corrections; it actually could be anything within the Public Service. We\u2019ve got people in the Defence Force that would be crossing that picket line of any of the areas. It could be teachers. It could be health workers. It could be any of those roles. I heard a member say earlier that the civil side of the Defence Force and the active service people don\u2019t stand against each other, but, actually, you could be putting them up against public servants overall, so those are areas\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eac32f149d894fa0ac22ecceb7393316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e19bed3a89b42ff8a3c30c16064d8ef\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: No, no\u2014section 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a32fdddc116e46bd932d744016100743\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that we would like to prosecute during the committee of the whole House stage. I do hear the people on the other side saying, \u201CNo, no, no.\u201D, but that\u2019s what the committee of the whole House is for: to actually prosecute that. I would hate to think that they were undermining the democracy within this House, because the democracy in this House says that we have the right, as Opposition, to actually prosecute this bill a bit more. It would be a very unusual and upsetting day if we had that side of the House thinking that we couldn\u2019t do that. It would be a sad day in this House, overall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003EThe other aspect around this is\u2014and it is actually the second piece of legislation that I\u2019ve spoken on this evening that I do have concerns about\u2014where we are narrowing the power down to a very narrow group of people. It seems to me that this bill is giving far more power to the Minister and the Chief of Defence Force than what we\u2019ve seen before. Those are areas that I would like to prosecute when we do get to that committee of the whole House stage because, again, it almost feels like, in several areas here, we\u2019re starting to narrow to the Beehive solely, and I don\u2019t think that\u2019s very good for this country. I feel that there needs to be a much wider and broader view here. That is something that, again, we would like to take forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003EJust going back to when I talked about going into other Public Service areas such as education, such as health workers, that is something that we saw over COVID. Again, like my colleague, I acknowledge those Defence Force people who supported our country over that time and did an amazing job. But the Minister herself said then that being deployed into civilian roles such as providing security to managed isolation and quarantine (MIQ) facilities is not what they signed up for. She said, \u201CI don\u2019t think the COVID MIQ duty made many people in defence that happy and I think people just wondered if this is what they are going to be used for.\u201D Again, this is something that they seem to be saying, on one hand, is a bad thing but, on the other hand, this is what this bill is enabling this to do. Again, those are areas that we need to prosecute further because it feels like those are questions that we still have after this bill has come back from select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003EAgain, I want to acknowledge our Defence Force. I want to acknowledge the work of the select committee team who brought this back. But I do look forward to the committee of the whole House stage where we can ask those questions to make sure that the rights of workers are upheld across all areas in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eac32f149d894fa0ac22ecceb7393316\u0022 data-id=\u00228f6507c75a92475dbc870527ec4edfc0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eac32f149d894fa0ac22ecceb7393316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f6507c75a92475dbc870527ec4edfc0\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E If this is the level of illiteracy that we\u2019re going to see in the Opposition\u2014not just about this bill but about what the military does\u2014you know, I feel sorry, on the one hand, for one of the members who spoke earlier, who I actually think would like to support the Defence Force. But they stand there with their crocodile tears: \u201COh, we acknowledge what they do.\u201D, and then they just want to oppose anything that\u2019s going to help the military to do their job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eac32f149d894fa0ac22ecceb7393316\u0022\u003EI thought the unions were terrible when they came to select committee. They didn\u2019t even understand what civilians do in the military: that they guard main gates or bases. They did not understand that military people who normally do that\u2014we used to do this. Like, how fundamentally can you not understand your job? Then the Green Party stood up, and if you thought the unions were woeful, listen to Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u2014absolutely awful, this kind of anti-military rhetoric we hear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eac32f149d894fa0ac22ecceb7393316\u0022\u003EIt didn\u2019t get any better with Jan Tinetti, as she stands up and says, \u201COh well, you know, the military had to help in managed isolation and quarantine.\u201D That\u2019s right, uniformed personnel had to do it. That\u2019s not the job that they wanted to do; this is people doing the job they would normally do, and military security force personnel filling a civilian role. They don\u2019t understand it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eac32f149d894fa0ac22ecceb7393316\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a good bill, I support it, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u002231916343a6a24a3d9e3124d6949bc2c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231916343a6a24a3d9e3124d6949bc2c2\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Phil Twyford\u2014five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1fa5321c6eb44bba30018665b3b9106\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1fa5321c6eb44bba30018665b3b9106\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E It wasn\u2019t that long ago that a National Government got the troops out and deployed them to keep the ports operating during a major industrial dispute in New Zealand. Army, Navy, and Air Force personnel were used to load and unload cargo on the wharves to keep essential goods moving. Troops, effectively, were used to replace striking watersiders on the docks to guard strategic infrastructure and goods, and the ports were, basically, militarised during that dispute. It was highly controversial at the time. The country was divided.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EIt was clear at the time that the National Government of the day got the troops out on the streets and on the ports as a way of framing the dispute as a challenge to State authority, rather than it being just an industrial conflict; much in the way that Donald Trump has been getting the National Guard out on the streets of major American cities for his own political purposes. That dispute on the waterfront in 1951 was an unprecedented level of State coercion in 20th century New Zealand industrial relations. It\u2019s worth remembering that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022710186b7069d495abf4d5338ba52c99d\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a long time, Phil. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2e2b49fe44541b49e814d90dcc5b475\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: It may seem a long time ago for some people\u2014the 1951 waterfront lockout\u2014but, actually, in the world we live in right now, that sort of undermining of democratic norms and democratic institutions is happening all over the world as we speak at the moment. That\u2019s what is most disturbing, actually, about this debate: that this bill is, essentially, a charter for State strikebreaking. That\u2019s what it is. By loosening the parliamentary and the democratic oversight that for a long time has been a cross-party consensus in New Zealand\u2014a recognition that, from time to time, it may be in the national interest for the uniformed armed forces to be used to provide essential services during, for instance, a prolonged Public Service strike. The consensus has been that that is something to be done very sparingly, very carefully. If misused, it is, potentially, a threat to our democracy, and that is why we have careful parliamentary oversight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does is that it loosens that oversight so that in the case of the defence forces being used to break a strike in the Public Service, the Minister doesn\u2019t have to come and get a resolution of Parliament\u2014no; and the time periods are significantly longer. In the case of armed forces personnel and uniformed personnel being used to break a strike by the civilian employees of the defence forces, the details are slightly different, but the effect is the same: it removes parliamentary oversight and gives the defence Minister sweeping powers to deploy the armed forces to break strikes. Now, New Zealand has been a party to international law for a long time, provisions of the International Labour Organization that preserve the legal right to strike. It is a very important part of our democracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll say to colleagues that it\u2019s really distasteful, actually, when Tim van de Molen and then Tim Costley got up and, really, responded with abuse when people like Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March, quite legitimately, pointed out that this bill is undermining important democratic norms and protections in our system; and for doing that, they are accused of hating the military and not understanding what the defence forces do. I say to members on that side of the House: you should be better than that. Have a proper debate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a920e3d15d484f47815077e659b14b5a\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, cheer up. It\u2019ll be ok. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd2e9a5908184d12ab559f42f8ecbfec\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Have a proper debate. This bill is about strikebreaking; there\u2019s no two ways about it. It is about breaking industrial action, and defence members of the defence forces will be asked to cross the picket lines of striking workers. That is not the way we\u2019ve done things in New Zealand for a long time, and there\u2019s a very good reason. No evidence has been provided that gives any sort of justification for the changes in this, other than some perfunctory reference to a deteriorating strategic environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022 data-id=\u002245d86699e38640979976ea9a6ffa527d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245d86699e38640979976ea9a6ffa527d\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I think it is important to bring it back to reality. This bill does not mean that no one can strike in the Defence Force\u2014in the civilian workers in the Defence Force. They\u2019re still entitled to strike. This bill continues the ability for the Defence Force to carry out its vital activity in the security of our nation, and anything to the counter is just absolute rubbish. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bab007e25fff4471a1460f7b5378fc2f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c36df83376b74f9ea1dd3781dd1d9dd2\u0022\u003EHon Tama Potaka\u003C/span\u003E: Gobbledegook.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc674b6e5b8e43939380d986603609ae\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK\u003C/span\u003E: It really is gobbledegook. This is a good bill, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6c421e4f02d4937850c01f674f22c46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6c421e4f02d4937850c01f674f22c46\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E How do I respond to that speech? That was outstanding. I think the summary of that in its entirety was: \u201CThat was gobbledegook, and this is a good bill.\u201D I think you could say that about anything, really\u2014but, never mind, we\u2019re here to discuss this piece of legislation, which is a direct consequence of the cuts that this Government has driven right across the public sector and right across New Zealand\u2019s front-line services. This is yet another one that\u2019s being cut.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EWe asked the Minister multiple times if cutting civilian roles would have any meaningful impact on New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) personnel to either deploy or to do their job. The Minister said that they wouldn\u2019t allow it, but then, all of a sudden, we hear that the Government\u2019s trying to backfill those civilian positions that we\u2019re discussing today to make sure that NZDF personnel can continue to do those very basic things of their work. That is a real concern on this side of the House, and we\u2019ve heard some strong arguments in terms of why this doesn\u2019t work well. This Government has a long track record of assaulting workers\u2019 rights, right from the get-go of when they took office, and this is yet another notch\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eac32f149d894fa0ac22ecceb7393316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225499b4390694e5db3e5a84f3af15569\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: Tell us about assaulting workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222c2e0d65f8549778bd6a509592c7e37\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014on the list of what\u2019s happened in terms of workers\u2019 rights. Those members opposite might think it\u2019s funny that workers\u2019 rights are eroded; they might talk about this being a two-stage economic recovery, but the reality is that all New Zealanders know it is two stage\u2014one\u2019s for them, and the rest of it is for us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EThese workers who are trying to pay their rates and their insurance and their weekly grocery bills and their rent and trying to put clothes on their kids to go to school all day don\u2019t think it\u2019s funny. They\u2019re not cracking a joke, Tim Costley, because they\u2019re struggling every week to pay for bills, and people in the Defence Force are no different. They\u2019re struggling to be able to pay as well, and you coming in here and assaulting workers\u2019 rights and having a laugh about it with your mates is just adding insult to injury to the New Zealanders out there who know that this Government has well overspent its time, and it\u2019s about time that they took a check on what\u2019s happening out there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EIt is undermining those taking industrial action to protest the Government cuts, and it\u2019s making it even harder to bargain for fair pay and fair working conditions. It is actually quite disgusting that we have this elitist mentality to laugh at people who are struggling and are struggling for their rights. The Act currently requires the Minister to take the decisions to Parliament for debate and resolution, but this bill gives that power to the Minister directly. She has said herself that New Zealand Defence Force personnel being deployed into civilian roles and providing security to places like managed isolation and quarantine facilities is not what it was designed for, but we stand with civilian staff undertaking industrial action, and that is the point of difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve seen coverage in the media in terms of the perceptions of what this bill does; it hasn\u2019t been picked up as much as we potentially would have liked, because it is quite important that we have fair working conditions right across the Public Service. Restricting the right of civilian defence force workers to strike is completely unjustified, and it represents an escalation of this Government\u2019s undermining of fundamental workplace rights. We think this is yet another slight against workers in New Zealand, and it\u2019s completely unacceptable. There\u2019s no doubt about it: this legislation will make it harder for defence personnel and their families to be able to achieve fair pay and to be able to pay their weekly bills and afford things\u2014like many other New Zealanders right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003ELast year, we saw that Public Service Association members in the Defence Force were offered a zero pay increase and were only able to achieve a better offer by, in fact, taking strike action. Strike action is an incredibly important tool for workers to be able to stand up for those rights, which are currently under assault. It is absolutely no coincidence that introducing this legislation at the same time is restricting public sector workers\u2019 rights to strike for better pay and better conditions\u2014and that\u2019s not fair. That\u2019s not fair for people who don\u2019t have that right to fight back. It\u2019s taking advantage of having power, and it\u2019s making those in a weaker position suffer more, which is emblematic of the actions and the legislation that this Government has put into practice from day one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EWe know that many, many of those who are in the military will be quietly uncomfortable about being required to cross picket lines if civilian staff take action, and these kinds of divisive tactics by the Government within the Defence Force really undermine morale in general. It\u2019s not right. Public sector workers face exactly the same rising costs as everyone else, so instead of restricting their fundamental democratic right to strike, the Government should show them some respect and pay them fairly. Instead of giving tax cuts to landlords and tobacco companies, you should be paying the people who work hard every day for the State. Instead of calling public servants \u201Cwasteful\u201D and \u201Ca waste of time\u201D, we should acknowledge that they give their lives and their careers to serving our country, and that is an incredibly important role. These people are public servants who deserve that recognition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s important to put on the record that we have a Government that has completely disrespected the value of public servants, not just in Wellington but up and down the country\u2014people who choose to take a job that, quite often, pays less than one they could get in the private sector, but they do it because they believe in New Zealand and they want to build a country that we\u2019re proud of, where we work hard and we look after each other. Acts like this\u2014taking away a basic right to strike for fair pay conditions\u2014undermine the fabric of what New Zealand is. It stops people from having that ability. Public sector workers face the same rising costs as others, and that is completely unfair. When we have members opposite speaking for 32 seconds and saying, \u201CYour arguments are gobbledegook, and this is a good bill\u201D, it\u2019s absolute rubbish. This is an absolute direct consequence of those choices to cut Government spending and not to pay people what they\u2019re worth. We know that it provides the ability for that Minister to have additional powers when that\u2019s not required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EWe know, from the ministerial statement provided by the Minister, that the Defence (Workforce) Amendment Bill means the Minister of Defence will be able to authorise the Chief of Defence Force to redeploy uniformed personnel to carry out the roles of New Zealand Defence Force civilian staff. Currently, the Defence Act allows the Minister to authorise the redeployment of uniformed personnel in situations where health and safety is compromised or if work is not carried out by the armed forces. We know that this is not a good move for the New Zealand Defence Force. We know that they\u2019re worth more than that, and it\u2019s unfair of this Government to actually subsidise their cuts into other areas by causing this to happen. We do not support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270ed52c2243745f285c14a2d3413a86a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0ba003ec67843c19c5fd0ffd7f4b7ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270ed52c2243745f285c14a2d3413a86a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0ba003ec67843c19c5fd0ffd7f4b7ee\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E My son is a 19-year-old in the Defence Force. He was one of the youngest to graduate, as an 18-year-old, last year. He would be ashamed of hearing the ramble, the Labour lies from the left-hand side right now. This bill takes away the vulnerability of the status quo. It takes away the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e355b484190d4d9ba73b15154d7fa2a1\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Can he make a minute? Do one minute. I dare you! Do a minute! Come on!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270ed52c2243745f285c14a2d3413a86a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f618e5aa8104490093db698380711017\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON\u003C/span\u003E: Longer doesn\u2019t mean better, Ginny. You think you would have learnt that in your career by now. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f80b28f320cb4bea8dc546331a0b2315\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f80b28f320cb4bea8dc546331a0b2315\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Glen Bennett called first, so Glen Bennett for the Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd2e0ff5119b44bda8f36d29d699139a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd2e0ff5119b44bda8f36d29d699139a\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220163f493865845b2aeb9c30858584495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d60365ff70840e4ba8560290528b1b5\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d160f48e15434bd68060ed80f78bb378\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re not disputing my call, I hope. Don\u2019t dispute the call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220163f493865845b2aeb9c30858584495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b28f76f28a50452583c70000215efb2d\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m seeking clarity on the clear Standing Order that makes it specifically clear that it\u2019s not about who\u2019s first to their feet. It\u2019s about the proportionality and who gets the call in that instance, which is the largest party\u2014the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200da69952ff14f2b806b209e8bbef7e4\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The Chair will make the decision. The Chair has made the decision. Do not challenge it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217f2e8a6327d433f871e8461230d83ac\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff7912eaae6a47edbad7f9157f2e7e46\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Terrible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022611945baf2b24e65b8f54abda8564346\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Who said \u201CTerrible.\u201D? Who was that? Was that you, Mr Costley? Who said \u201CTerrible.\u201D then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278b6c6a66993433f896f9f0afdd3d560\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: The other side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd3b045944fd487ebdea2fe2e5c7f428\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. Someone there said \u201CTerrible.\u201D If the member who said \u201CTerrible\u201D doesn\u2019t\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297ca5ae8db75414b96acb673f2cfe9d4\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223eae483314a34e9185c97cd118743268\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave the House. Basic rule: do not comment on Speakers\u2019 rulings here. Leave the House, Mr Brown. You should know better; you\u2019re a Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown withdrew from the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7329ae845944d4ea412e126ec45ee02\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Right\u2014Glen Bennett.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d881e10a8f1446dea03d5a21c89fb065\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora, Mr Speaker. As with the New Zealand Defence Force, this is around rules and regulations and what a sworn member of the New Zealand Defence Force should be able to do and shouldn\u2019t need to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003EI heard a comment just before from the previous speaker, Mr Hamilton, in regard to his son. I considered this as I was looking through the notes and having a flick through this piece of legislation and spending the evening listening to the debate on all sides of the House. As I reflect on this, I think of my husband, who joined the New Zealand Defence Force many years ago. The reason he joined was not to not to fill gaps when it came to civilians within the New Zealand Defence Force striking; he came in to serve his country, to be a peacekeeper around the world, to do his part whether it be a disaster, whether it be a rescue situation, or whether it be serving internationally, which he got to do and he was proud to serve New Zealand as a peacekeeper on several tours of duty. As I said, the reason he joined was not because he thought he would have to jump in and deal with issues around civilians within the New Zealand Defence Force taking strike action; he joined to serve and to make a significant difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003EAs I\u2019ve listened to the debate tonight, as I\u2019ve listened to the short and long contributions, it\u2019s become very clear to me that again we have to look at this legislation not just as one piece as we go through the process of the House; we\u2019ve got to look at it in the context of other legislation that comes through or that has come through and has changed it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff775135e61c4e95af2c92c58bf12a52\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa6720114c3544dd95f7faf788155b1d\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014on the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220582b58dd29f49b38d8037ae1d6fb1f1\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I am on the bill, thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff775135e61c4e95af2c92c58bf12a52\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c40cd9e94e341b985a47718610c42f8\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: The context you guys are giving is totally wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b169a814a4c44c628c4848d1e60a7ba0\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: You haven\u2019t listened to any of my arguments, so if you\u2019d just listen up, Buttercup, that would be really cool.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003EThis is around our workers, and this piece of legislation is around our workers, and that\u2019s why I bring that up. Look at things that have come through around the pay equity challenges, around the introduction of pay deductions for partial strikes. What this Government has done against our workforce is why we stand up against this legislation this evening. It feels like the bigger picture you look at is an attack on workers. We need to make sure we stand strong and make sure that our New Zealand Defence Force are standing up and doing the work that they must do as those who have been trained to serve our nation and to serve our world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003EWhat I find interesting about this piece of legislation\u2014and my colleague the Hon Peeni Henare, who was a Minister of Defence, and a very good Minister of Defence\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224e7ed4542e64671afcc76136b4582e0\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b35b7fbc9add4135accd536441db4869\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: We get a laugh from across the floor there, as we always do, and we really appreciate the laugh track in Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003EThis is around the fact that this bill provides for the Minister to authorise part or parts of the armed forces to perform the work of the New Zealand Defence Force so the civilian staff can take industrial action. Actually, the current legislation requires the Minister to take the decision to Parliament for debate and for a resolution. In this legislation that we are debating tonight, the amendment gives the Minister that power directly without having to come to this House and say, \u201CHey, I\u2019ve got an argument why we actually need the New Zealand Defence Force to be stepping up and stepping into these spaces.\u201D, because there is a reason and a need for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003EWe cannot support this legislation. We stand as a Labour Party with our civilian staff in the New Zealand Defence Force. I just want to finish in reflection on what was said by the Public Service Association: that members of the Defence Force were offered a zero pay increase and were only able to achieve a better offer after taking strike action. They were offered a zero pay increase, and so they took strike action because it was an embarrassment and we need to support our workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221b12a87a17be4591b4c3d46191a86223\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Defence (Workforce) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000869\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00221bd6babc643344229e729c20b3d9177e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221bd6babc643344229e729c20b3d9177e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for committee stage immediately. I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Defence (Workforce) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002275c4b5b2ad5e4ba4aa12fda1f425269a\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d3576cacc02746b4bf601a7d77b45d20\u0022\u003EClause 1  Title\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022093f42ec0a844b9c897bf8f79686fd63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022093f42ec0a844b9c897bf8f79686fd63\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House in committee on the Defence (Workforce) Amendment Bill. We come now to clause 1. Clause 1 is the debate on the \u201CTitle\u201D clause. The question is that clause 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022 data-id=\u00222181d478e906409cbf77312722d67d8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222181d478e906409cbf77312722d67d8e\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Speaking to clause 1, there were a number of matters that were raised by my colleagues, and certainly this side of the House, with relation to, actually, what is the true intent behind this bill, looking towards whether or not this is simply just as it says on the tin, or something far more sinister; something that actually does detract from the rights of workers. Something more sinister than that actually goes towards looking towards using the New Zealand Defence Force in places where they\u2019re probably not best suited to be used, yet leaving the door open, leaving the bill, naturally, grey enough to make sure that there\u2019s wriggle room for this Government to shoot their needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EI suggest, then, perhaps, that there could be a better title for this particular bill\u2014something along the lines of \u201CDenigrating Workers\u2019 Rights Bill\u201D. Something like that\u2014that is very clear, it\u2019s quite poignant, it makes out exactly what we believe on this side of the House this bill actually does. If we look towards the title, it seems innocuous in so far as it says it\u2019s just a \u201C(Workforce) Amendment Bill\u201D, but, actually, what\u2019s happening is more far reaching. It isn\u2019t just the workforce in the Defence Force; it\u2019s actually the workforce across the public sector. That\u2019s where we believe that the name of this bill probably doesn\u2019t match, actually, the intent of the Minister or this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EWe would recommend\u2014and I\u2019m sure that there will be suggestions from others of my colleagues about how this might be better labelled so that those out in the public can understand at least some of the comments made from Government benches about what they believe Labour or the Green Party might think about this particular bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EI will leave that one as a starter, just to make sure that those out in the public know exactly what it is that this bill does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u00222250ce814fc244629abf844566bc0f47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222250ce814fc244629abf844566bc0f47\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I rise to speak on this bill, in particular, looking at Clause 1, the title of the bill. I do take the points made by the Hon Peeni Henare that perhaps we should consider having a more accurate label on the tin. We look at the Defence (Workforce) Amendment Bill, and, of course, as we heard throughout the discussions of the second reading debate, they were wide-ranging, and there were wide-ranging concerns and, of course, differences that were highlighted between civilian personnel and military personnel. The question is: how does this particular title encompass the differences between military personnel and civilian personnel?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EI do make the point around some of those differences, as well, which I think should be more accurately featured in this title, but it doesn\u2019t\u2014that is, with civilian personnel you should have the right to strike. You should have all those abilities to do all the things that you do in civilian life in the same way that other public sector workers are able to do that, as well. It\u2019s different if you\u2019re working as military personnel: you sign up for a particular role, there\u2019s a hierarchy\u2014you can\u2019t just get up and leave, because that\u2019s deserting. You can\u2019t do particular other issues, as well, that you could do within the civilian sphere, because that is what you sign up for and that\u2019s understood and that\u2019s appreciated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EI know that many people across the House, including myself, have relations that are in the Defence Force who have taken that role, have been recruited, and who understand what it is that they are doing, as well. But it is different in this bill, because this bill actually focuses on the civilian personnel. I think there is an argument that we should be having around whether the label on the tin is as accurate as it could be, because we look at it and we think, \u201CWell, actually they must be all talking about the same workers. The workers that are military personnel must be the same as the workers that are civilian personnel.\u201D That is clearly not the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s important to also highlight a number of questions that actually came up in the select committee around why there were so many civilian personnel. There\u2019s around about 3,000; around about 1,000 of those are unionised. Is it a cost-cutting exercise that we\u2019re actually bringing in civilian people to do what many of us would have assumed that military personnel would have done instead? Having that clarity, I think, right at the top in clause 1, as part of that label on the tin, would go some way to giving some clarity about what this bill is actually about\u2014because those differences, as we learnt and as we explored in the select committee, are actually quite profound there. There are actually some differences there, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EI did mention that in round one of the submissions we heard that if you are in the military personnel, you don\u2019t get to mouth off; you don\u2019t get to do or say certain things, you just follow orders. But if those orders mean it is you taking roles and preventing a civilian colleague from being able to exercise their right and to actually strike in the fullest sense of the word, then I think that needs to be accurately described in the title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EI did take the point from the Hon Peeni Henare in his suggestion that the title be the \u201CDenigrating Workforce Bill\u201D\u2014a bit harsh, but if he does put it down as an amendment, it\u2019s probably something that we could probably support, as well. But I think it could be more accurate to describe it as the \u201CImpacting Civilian Personnel (Workforce) Bill\u201D. That might be, I don\u2019t know, a nicer way to put it instead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EThis opening debate on clause 1 is an important debate, because it sets the tone about what we\u2019re actually talking about and having to make sure that we have those differences laid out. I don\u2019t think those have been laid out very clearly in the title. I\u2019m open to hearing other suggestions, which would help to, at first glance, when you look at this thing, be a lot more clear about what it is. We did hear a number of speeches from this side of the House around strikebreaking, the concerns from unions, and the concerns from workers, as well, while finding a way to be as respectful as possible to the military personnel. We\u2019ve got to find ways to make sure that civilian personnel and military personnel could work together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022 data-id=\u0022091e31970f59450894cbe174b5eaf02e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022091e31970f59450894cbe174b5eaf02e\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Look, there\u2019s nothing wrong with this title to the bill. It\u2019s accurate and it doesn\u2019t have all that emotional rubbish that I\u2019ve just been listening to. I think it\u2019s very important to understand that the Defence Force is somewhat different from what it was in 1990, when the original Act was first brought through. One of the differences is that there is a higher proportion of civilian staff now than what there was in 1990. What we\u2019ve seen is a drop in the number of uniformed staff and that is because of the decisions over the last 35 years, particularly around civilianising parts of the Defence Force. Those decisions were made for reasons that, no doubt, seemed sensible at the time, but what it has done is that the Chief of Defence Force has fewer people who he can choose to deploy on overseas and other activities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EI take you back to the fact that the New Zealand Defence Force tries very hard to make sure that civilians and uniformed staff are treated in a decent and good manner and that they work together wherever possible. The point is that everyone brings something different to their roles\u2014but it is important that the Chief of Defence Force has more say over where his people are deployed and what they\u2019re doing, and to be able to make sure that he doesn\u2019t have a situation as we had around this time last year when we were looking at the Christmas break in Parliament lifting for the year, with the possibility of the civilian staff, or the union that was representing them, the New Zealand Public Service Association (PSA), deciding that they were going to lift the people who were guarding the armaments supplies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EThat was something that, I felt, showed a real lack of appreciation by the PSA union: that they would leave armament supplies unguarded at a time when anyone could have gone in there\u2014not only health and safety but national security issues. We do not live in a benign strategic environment. We do have people who, unfortunately, will steal those sorts of things. It is totally unacceptable. For the Chief of Defence Force to be powerless to actually put in uniformed staff over that Christmas period when Parliament had risen, and we couldn\u2019t actually come back to get Parliament to vote again, was outrageously unacceptable and we\u2019re not going to have it again. I want to make this really clear: mess around with our national security, you\u2019re messing around with something that this Government takes very seriously, and we will take it seriously. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003ESo the title is exactly as it as should be. It is clear, it\u2019s unambiguous, and it deals with the fact that the Chief of Defence Force has to be able to look to his whole workforce and to use them the best that he can for national security reasons. Think, also, of the other work that the New Zealand Defence Force does around civil disasters that we have here, whether it\u2019s volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, cyclones, and everything else. He\u2019s got to be able to deploy people into those sites, in those areas, and he\u2019s got to be able to have the uniformed staff, who are supported by the civilian staff, to help make that happen. It just doesn\u2019t all happen overnight. It\u2019s not just one person who does it; it\u2019s a whole team. The workforce needs to be a team, and it\u2019s incredibly important that we take a responsible situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EThe Chief of Defence Force would be the only employer in the country who has to come to Parliament to get permission to make decisions about who he has working somewhere. That is truly a difficult position\u2014he\u2019s about the only person who does. To have the Opposition that voted against all the attempts we had last year to give the Chief of Defence Force the powers to have his ammunition supply areas guarded, to have camps guarded, to take those measures\u2014how dare they turn up tonight and say this is about workers\u2019 rights. They put the country in this situation by not supporting the Government then; they\u2019re not going to do it again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5275e4cea724d61a1ce6bad9601ac41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5275e4cea724d61a1ce6bad9601ac41\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I take the next call, I just have to say it\u2019s very difficult to insist on the Opposition keeping very narrowly to the point of the clause when the Minister, basically, gives a general debate speech. Just saying. Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u002251cb50a143994e0cabeae266bf76fbed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251cb50a143994e0cabeae266bf76fbed\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. You\u2019re spoiling my fun. I thought that the Minister of Defence gave a very emotional and heartfelt speech, and I was going to give the Minister a nice response to that. But I will stick very closely to the first clause, thank you, Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EIn terms of what the Minister\u2019s referring to, I think my colleague Teanau Tuiono has a good point in terms of whether the \u201Cworkforce\u201D is actually the best term to use in this case, because while we do see workforce happening if we see subsequent clauses, all of that is referring to \u201Cuse of Armed Forces\u201D in specific circumstances. I want to check with the Minister if she would consider my amendment, which is \u201CDefence (Use of Armed Forces) Amendment Bill\u201D which is more in line with the subheading and the crossheading of clauses 4 and 5 of this current legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EIn terms of another potential amendment\u2014and this is something that my colleague Teanau Tuiono hasn\u2019t spoken on, is one of his amendments on the title, because as the Minister mentioned, the main reason that we\u2019re bringing this bill into the House is around instances where there is a strike action. I also agree with the Minister that, when you are looking at why people are striking in the first place, the Government, as the Minister puts it, also has the ability and the responsibility to settle any sort of negotiating, etc., so, that way, staff don\u2019t have to resort to strike. I\u2019m sure the Minister is well aware of the fact that people will strike with a lot of processes and in extreme and dire circumstances where there are no other options remaining.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EFinally, just to the Minister: considering that this bill is more about preventing or undermining, as some would say in the select committee stage, the ability for people to strike, I wonder if, quite appropriately, the Minister would consider the title by my colleague Teanau Tuiono, which is \u201CDefence (Counterstrike) Amendment Bill\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022 data-id=\u00229fe040df96404c4ba769d6765d2ef593\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fe040df96404c4ba769d6765d2ef593\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m concerned that the bill has a title which we look at and we actually simply can\u2019t tell what the bill does. It\u2019s not particularly descriptive of the bill\u2019s activities, no matter which way we look at this. I appreciate that the Minister comes from a very different point of view from the Labour Party on this, but even the Minister must accept that the Defence (Workforce) Amendment Bill tells the public nothing. It doesn\u2019t inform them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EWe have here a bill that takes a group of workers who sign up to the military to do a job\u2014and they are actually our bravest people\u2014and they\u2019re coming in on one basis, and their labour is being forced to be redirected in another direction. I\u2019ve had several volunteers who have been in the military, and I think about their commitment to the values of the Labour Party. I think about their commitment to issues around industrial labour and striking, and it looks to me like, here, those very people would be forced to take up a role while another worker is striking. It\u2019s not a military role; it\u2019s a very different kind of role that they\u2019re being forced into. They\u2019re not defending the country, as such.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003ENow, I appreciate there\u2019s also the issue of the extension of the powers not to bring this back to Parliament. I presume that\u2019s why Parliament was there: it\u2019s the check and balance, in a difficult situation\u2014and I appreciate life is messy\u2014but it\u2019s a check and balance that this Parliament put in place because this is a difficult situation, because we sign up our young men and women to do military service, and we redirect them into something that they didn\u2019t anticipate being part of. It does have a political impact, because if you are replacing civilian workers, that is a political act for many people. That is why you have heard such passion tonight, Minister\u2014sorry, for the Minister\u2019s benefit: that is why the Minister is getting such a passionate response from the Labour Party and the Green Party, because it goes against the values of a lot of the people on this side of the House to replace the work of someone who is legitimately using industrial tools, which are narrow anyway. They\u2019re not something that they can do outside of the law; they are restricted enough as it is. It takes away the balance that\u2019s already been built in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EI do wonder about this title, and I\u2019d like a real answer on this: does the Minister really think that this title tells us what this bill does? Is there a possibility of coming up with something neutral? Now, I might not come up with something neutral. I might come up with something which actually talks about the forced labour of the military and forces them into civilian occupations. I might do that, but, actually, even if we pared it back emotionally, I do think there is a need to get the bill aligned with what it does, in terms of its title. I just simply don\u2019t think it happens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like the Minister to assure me that she thinks this title\u2014Defence (Workforce) Amendment Bill\u2014tells the public what it needs to know, and what does she have to say about the forced nature of the labour moving across into the civilian areas? What can I tell my young volunteers who are in the military and have signed up for the sake of their country? What do I tell them about their obligation to cross the picket line and do the work of a striking worker, given that they\u2019ve joined the Labour Party because they believe that these principles are pretty important? Can they tell from this title what, actually, this bill is going to make them do when they sign up? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3f23f85ad114db39ec40149010abb08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3f23f85ad114db39ec40149010abb08\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Speaking on the \u201CTitle\u201D clause, we\u2019ve heard a number of impassioned speeches\u2014one from the Minister of Defence, as well\u2014so I\u2019m not planning to use any emotion here, Minister, you\u2019ll be pleased to hear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003EBut coming to this bill for the first time\u2014it\u2019s not one I\u2019ve looked at before\u2014I looked at it and thought, \u201CDefence (Workforce) Amendment Bill; oh yeah, something about workforce.\u201D But having listened to these debates, it does very much seem that this is about uniformed staff or armed forces doing the job of civilians\u2014civil staff\u2014when those civil staff are taking some strike action. I\u2019m happy to be told by the Minister that my listening to the debate is wrong somehow, but I really think that something along those lines would be a much more accurate description of what this bill does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003EWe will look later, when we come to clause 5\u2014which I\u2019m very interested in\u2014about this relationship to those strikes, with the reference to section 97 of the Employment Relations Act, which is all about striking. I would like the Minister to answer my question about whether or not she would consider some change, to really be clear about what this bill does. From listening to the Minister, and from those very, very brief speeches we heard in the second reading from Government members, it does seem that they\u2019re very much in support of this bill and think that it\u2019s very simple. We heard in the second reading that people who were disagreeing with the Government\u2014we\u2019re told that they are illiterate. So I want to help with the literacy of everybody in this House, and suggest that the Minister respond to me about why it is called the Defence (Workforce) Amendment Bill, when it would be much better called the \u201CDefence (Armed Forces Doing the Jobs of Civil Staff When Those Civil Staff are on Strike) Amendment Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022 data-id=\u0022b30064e3e61c4a7d93047b46e500f231\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b30064e3e61c4a7d93047b46e500f231\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank you to the Minister of Defence for her earlier response, because it did spark a question that I didn\u2019t have in my head before. She spoke about the framing of the problem or the genesis of the problem being striking over the summer months when Parliament isn\u2019t sitting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI went back to the Defence Act and I\u2019m just looking at section 9(8)(b), which I\u2019ll read out. These are the exception provisions which say, \u201CAny authority given under subsection (2)\u201D\u2014this is the one we\u2019re amending\u2014\u201Cor subsection (4)\u201D\u2014that\u2019s an existing power relating to helping the Police\u2014\u201Cshall lapse on the expiration of 14 days after the day on which it was given unless\u2014(a) the House of Representatives passes a resolution\u201D\u2014we know that; we\u2019ve talked about that. Subsection (b) says \u201Cor (b) if Parliament was dissolved or had expired before or after the authority was given and has not been summoned to meet before the authority would lapse, the Governor-General, being satisfied that it is necessary to extend the authority, extends it by Proclamation approved in Executive Council for such period as is specified in the Proclamation.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EJust so that we are all clear as we start this discussion as to what the problem statement is, it doesn\u2019t feel to me like there\u2019s an absence of power. There is a power there for those authorisations to continue over a summer period. The issue is how that happens, and perhaps it\u2019s duration of time; perhaps it\u2019s the burden of getting the Executive Council together at a short notice. Perhaps it\u2019s certainty. I\u2019m sure there may be some of those reasons that have factored into the Minister\u2019s thought process in terms of the need for this, but I don\u2019t necessarily see the need for the power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EOf course, the power is coupled with other things, including the extension of that period that it would apply to, so the 30 days instead of the 14. But it would seem to me that the power is already there, and so I\u2019m very curious about the Minister\u2019s rationale as to why that was not sufficient. I think the value of having a proclamation-type power is that it does hold the right to strike in high regard, and it feels like there would be a high-bar threshold to deciding whether it was warranted to continue that or not. However, that\u2019s still precisely why we have proclamation powers in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220163f493865845b2aeb9c30858584495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221057b949f9fe4e2094507a8da84911b1\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Which clause?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229195e063a7404983af6f7c3039e9f251\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS\u003C/span\u003E: Section\u2014it\u2019s not in the bill; it\u2019s in the original Act. You just need to go to the Defence Act 1990, section 9(8)(b). Section 9(8)(a), you\u2019ll all be familiar with\u2014section 9(8)(b) is the one I\u2019m referring to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022 data-id=\u002295725f6c526147e48571ffe1239ceaad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295725f6c526147e48571ffe1239ceaad\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E The existing provisions only cover a situation where the House of Parliament was dissolved or expired. There\u2019s no current provision for when the House is adjourned, and the bill addresses that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EThe other question about the workforce amendment bill, and the title, which is what this debate is about: all those other suggestions seem, to me, completely out of line. The bill itself \u201Cintroduces a new process for the Minister of Defence to authorise the Armed Forces to conduct the work of NZDF Civil Staff taking industrial action when there are reasonable grounds to believe that\u2014an authorisation is needed to avoid prejudicing\u2014national security; or the ability and/or readiness of the Armed Forces to perform specific operational activities that are integral to core defence outputs; or it is necessary for the work to be performed for reasons of [health and safety]\u201D. So it\u2019s not just people striking; it\u2019s all these other things having to be in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270ed52c2243745f285c14a2d3413a86a\u0022 data-id=\u00223315cb87b3cd4d4d8d307e1b90027bb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270ed52c2243745f285c14a2d3413a86a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223315cb87b3cd4d4d8d307e1b90027bb6\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d2d16d8007ca462f84a36e94b3046f18\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed3c7338acd34532ac30a56aeafa5889\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed3c7338acd34532ac30a56aeafa5889\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to the title replacing \u201CWorkforce\u201D with \u201CUse of Armed Forces\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226f9819a640164156babdea6a2e6477cc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf614bf316da4424b9a00a25ff6ab084\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf614bf316da4424b9a00a25ff6ab084\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Teanau Tuiono\u2019s tabled amendment to the title replacing \u201CWorkforce\u201D with \u201CCounter Strike\u201D is out of order as not being an objective description of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002242d6fa36fb9f4750960797d92fd1f9ba\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb12e8b090004372922f068a39e4aa63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb12e8b090004372922f068a39e4aa63\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The time has come for me to leave the Chair. The House will resume at 9 a.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118f40155a68acf4a83b5e1d678f11fca85000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 10.03 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228bef1b843d1b4f0081086b4a9c3bb5cf\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 18 NOVEMBER 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221120ecf3ff4c404393b0fdc447bd1066\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 19 November 2025)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226484a7655b1e42c29e69f1f753f6e9e8\u0022\u003EDefence (Workforce) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f1c4f606b6e14db29ca0ff0f5628b4ca\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b7d960f9a3c14f5c9beac6c9ea65e344\u0022\u003EClause 2  Commencement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00225e8dbccd47c448bea341986a0bbce3d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e8dbccd47c448bea341986a0bbce3d9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the committee is resumed on the Defence (Workforce) Amendment Bill. When we suspended last night, we had concluded the debate on clause 1. We now come to clause 2. This is the debate on the commencement of the bill. The question is that clause 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022 data-id=\u00225dbd60602a2241578731e4610e8d5499\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225dbd60602a2241578731e4610e8d5499\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I just have a couple of questions on this particular clause. Last night, in the Minister of Defence\u2019s contribution, she spoke specifically to an instance at this time last year, where there was the fear that it would carry over into Christmas. From what I could see and from what I understand, that actually didn\u2019t eventuate, and this is one of those stopgap, precautionary measures, if you will, to make sure that during that time, there is still an ability for the Chief of Defence Force and even the Minister to play their role to backfill a number of those positions, should there be industrial action. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister, put simply, is whether that is correct. She\u2019s mentioned a specific instance. Her words, if I recall correctly\u2014I\u2019ve got them written down here\u2014were that it was at about this time last year, and so I\u2019m just curious. If that was the case this time last year, we\u2019ve now gone through a full year, and here we are, in urgency, going through three stages of this bill. I wanted it just to be clear from the Minister whether it was indeed that instance this time last year that has, one, caused this bill, and, two, meant that it is the wish or the desire of the Minister to make sure that this passes before Christmas. Thank you very much. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8ab400078564234a32f18175e5699f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8ab400078564234a32f18175e5699f9\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E In terms of the commencement, just following on from the Hon Peeni Henare around the commencement date, there are things, as we heard from the second reading and select committee stage, that are of concern. Particularly, I think we\u2019ll explore this a little bit more and it\u2019s more appropriately discussed under clause 4, but I just wanted to flag that there are also interactions with other parts of the principal Act\u2014section 9, as well\u2014that I think deserve a little bit more teasing out in terms of the implementation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI think it would be good to check with the Minister of Defence if the Minister would even consider delaying it or potentially\u2014as we see in one of the amendments from us\u2014consider that the date, rather than being the day after Royal assent, be a date set by Order in Council. This is just so that we\u2019re able to tease out some of the fish-hooks in this bill with regard to how that\u2019s going to work and the issues that it will create, while also noting that this bill has implications for the House of Representatives as well, as we see in the later clauses. I wanted to check with the Minister if it would be prudent to delay the commencement date or to consider, like I said, one of our amendments to change it to a date set by Order in Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022 data-id=\u002245a33cfe4f5a4e6e8191b78095c17132\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245a33cfe4f5a4e6e8191b78095c17132\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the Minister of Defence for her responses last night. Of course, the commencement date is tied to the fact that we\u2019re hearing this bill under urgency, and that brings us back to the identification of the need for the bill and the gap that it\u2019s filling. Last night, the Minister really helpfully responded to my question about section 9(8)(b) of the Defence Act, which allows the Governor-General to step in by proclamation and rectify the situation, but only in cases where the House has already been dissolved or expired, and so that was a really useful clarification from the Minister last night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI had another question related to the identification of the problem, which is that the current subsections (2) and (4) of section 9 give the Minister powers to make these authorisations. I can\u2019t spot whether there is a restriction on how many authorisations a Minister is able to make or the duration between authorisations. The reason that\u2019s important is that it would seem to me that if there isn\u2019t a restriction on the power of the Minister, then the Minister could well, under section 9 as it currently stands, issue a new authorisation, and it would just require that the Minister turn her mind to the circumstances that there are on the expiration of the 14 days. Now, to my mind, that is not a negative thing. It is what we require in terms of many of the delegated powers that are provided to Ministers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI note that there has been a trend over different Governments over the last several years to increase the scope of discretionary powers, and so it is something that the House must be mindful of and ensure that when we are choosing to do that\u2014elongating the period of the days\u2014we\u2019re doing that purposefully. But if there isn\u2019t an actual gap in this case\u2014because the Minister does have the power, once that order looks like it\u2019s about to expire, to then make another order that also lasts for the 14-day period\u2014and if there has been an assessment of the likelihood of two 14-day periods taking us through a summer break to allow Parliament then to sit and then potentially extend the second order, if you like, we\u2019re using everything that\u2019s in the current Defence Act, as opposed to there being any need for us to make these changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022 data-id=\u0022875e4b53656a41a09b2b87bd799de22b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022875e4b53656a41a09b2b87bd799de22b\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I think we\u2019ll answer those questions, thank you, Madam Chair. As we\u2019ve said before, this bill has already gone through a select committee process, and so when I hear all these cries about urgency, we\u2019re talking about a second reading, a committee of the whole House stage, and a third reading\u2014it\u2019s already gone through a full process. There were around 30 submissions, and they\u2019ve been carefully listened to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EThis is not an issue that\u2019s only arisen last year; it\u2019s actually an issue that\u2019s been top of mind for the Chief of Defence Force: the inability to deploy his own staff, particularly where there are situations around, let\u2019s say, the safety of the country, and health and safety. As I said yesterday, even when we had ammunition supply dumps, as we call them, or supply areas that were going to be unguarded for an hour a day, that would be, I think, totally unacceptable, and the Chief of Defence Force needs to have the ability to deal with that situation. It\u2019s not just putting uniformed staff into roles currently undertaken by civilian staff; it\u2019s actually about where there\u2019s health and safety issues, where there\u2019s national security issues, where there\u2019s an urgency, and where there\u2019s a deployment. These are quite limiting times, and it\u2019s not like just shifting people around, like most other employers can do with their staff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EThe Hon Peeni Henare has asked whether last year\u2019s action prompted the need for the bill. Well, yes, it certainly showed that existing provisions were insufficient and not practical. One of the provisions addresses the risk that an extension is required when the House is adjourned, and that\u2019s one of the issues that we dealt with last night after a question from Vanushi Walters. The risk didn\u2019t eventuate, but it may well in future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EI think we should remember that the Defence Act is a piece of legislation from 1990, when peace had broken out in the world and every sensible nation thought that everyone else was going to be sensible from there on. What we\u2019re seeing now, unfortunately, 35 years later, is that there is quite an aggressive stance in the world\u2014particularly in our part of that world\u2014and we need to be prepared for anything. Also the effects of weather events, cyclones, and all these sorts of things are all deployments that the Defence Force undertakes, and it cannot be stopped from doing that because there\u2019s something going on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EThere is no restriction on the number of authorisations that the Minister can make, or the period before them, but of course we have the opportunity in the House for members to ask the Minister of Defence\u2014in this case, me\u2014questions or to have urgent debates and bring the matter to the attention of the House. If the requirements of the bill are met, which is not just that there\u2019s a strike going on but that there\u2019s an urgency and a need for cover, the Minister can make a new authorisation, and so it is important to remember that there\u2019s not just a willy-nilly \u201CLet\u2019s all go round and stick our uniformed staff in doing the civilian jobs.\u201D; it\u2019s actually that all these other factors have to be in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022690e78ebae8b4205814b5e6474f8b329\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022690e78ebae8b4205814b5e6474f8b329\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and good morning to the folks in the Chamber today. Just to acknowledge the responses so far from the Minister, I found that last bit constructive. There was a question that the Hon Peeni Henare\u2014well, my interpretation of what the Hon Peeni Henare asked, and that was around the date. I do take a point from the Minister that we did have a select committee process and there were a number of submissions that we heard, and that\u2019s helped to shape the bill as it is, but we are moving through the last remaining stages of urgency, which, if we weren\u2019t moving through urgency, would have given us time to pause and reflect, given the gravity of the issues at stake here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EThe question that I\u2019m interested in is around that commencement date. There were issues last year, in 2024, which have prompted this legislation, and I am wondering, in terms of speeding this through and not having that ability to reflect on whether we have the best legislation moving through the process, whether the reason why we\u2019re moving it through urgency is the proximity to Christmas. Is it around the certainty? I suspect that it is, but it would be good for the clarity of the committee for the Minister to share that with us, just in case I\u2019m under illusions and that\u2019s not actually the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EI do understand what happened last year, when there was industrial action, but in my reading of the situation right now, that urgency doesn\u2019t exist, because unless there are pending negotiations or pending industrial action that the Minister might want to share with the committee, then I guess the question is: why are we moving at pace with these last remaining stages, given that there are a number of issues that we\u2019re trying to continue to put through? But I also acknowledge that we have addressed a number of those issues in the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EMy question is around the commencement date: is there scope to move it out so that we can actually really get through more of the detail of what the best way forward is for military personnel and civilian personnel? Given that we do want these groups of workers to be able to work together in the best way possible, I note that in the departmental report and in the select committee process as well, that was an issue that was raised. The Public Service Association submission did talk about the fact that they have had off-the-record conversations that military personnel felt uncomfortable about where this was heading, and so a bit more time would be good to make sure that we have the best process possible so that if we get to the situation where industrial action is happening, then it\u2019s done in a way which is to the benefit of the wellbeing of the entire workforce\u2014the military plus civilian\u2014in that space. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022 data-id=\u002213295bd04bf644a4ae004c7febe339ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213295bd04bf644a4ae004c7febe339ea\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I\u2019m happy to address that issue. The date is the date after the Royal assent, which is the normal date for bills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EAs for the proximity of Christmas, of course that\u2019s an issue, to make sure that the House isn\u2019t adjourned and we have a problem. But I\u2019d just also point out that whenever Parliament is adjourned during the Christmas break, not only is it difficult to do anything through Parliament\u2014since I can\u2019t imagine that too many of us want to be called back in during that time\u2014but also it\u2019s when a lot of weather events happen, whether it\u2019s in New Zealand or overseas, and so we do actually have to be prepared all the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EThe Defence Force can\u2019t always plan on things happening in weeks or months or even days. Sometimes things have to happen straight away, and so it is very important that the Chief of Defence Force has the confidence to go into this break knowing that he\u2019s got the ability to pull in the right people at the right time, and he\u2019s not under this sort of threat that suddenly he won\u2019t have anybody to undertake some, say, logistics works that he needs to have done for an urgent deployment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s no industrial action that I\u2019m aware of at the moment, and I just sort of hope that we won\u2019t be going down that pathway. I think it\u2019s really important that everyone works together as much as possible in defence and in every other part\u2014and so I\u2019m not aware of any.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022 data-id=\u00227a4b6a49788749549984cb7f69c64eee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a4b6a49788749549984cb7f69c64eee\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you very much to the Minister of Defence for those last responses, which I also found really helpful. I am a bit concerned about the use of urgency in the House, and not only for all stages, but I think what we\u2019re seeing more and more is that at the final stages of urgency, it\u2019s viewed as not a problem or not an issue really, when one of the key things, to my mind, that happens during urgency is the proposal of amendments by members of Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EHearing from the public is absolutely important, as are the amendments. I do try and ensure that when I\u2019m submitting amendments, they\u2019re done constructively in terms of things that will improve the clarity of the bill. It\u2019s a process of Parliament that should be used and valued, but I\u2019m very concerned that it\u2019s just not something that\u2019s given much respect. Government members are laughing at the moment, which I think is demonstrative of that, and I think it\u2019s a shame because the public are not just submitting; they\u2019re also watching these stages of the House. They\u2019re sending us proposals for amendments as well, which we\u2019ll often include and submit, and I think they ought to be considered, even at a late stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI recall during Budget urgency that there was a suggestion that I\u2019d put forward. It was about an interpretation of one of the phrases referring to I think it was the chief executive of Invest New Zealand. It looked to me like a drafting error, and I do think the House needs to be mindful of those, as well. My big point here is that the House\u2019s procedures are very important, and so although the Standing Orders only require a reason to be given when urgency is invoked, I think there\u2019s a duty of care in terms of the rule of law and democracy that the reasons are genuinely about urgent situations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EOne more time, I go back to whether there\u2019s a gap in the legislation, and I think the point of real clarity was when the Minister spoke to the fact that there is no limit on her ability to make those announcements to make a new power\u2014a second power, if you like\u2014on the expiration of the first. I\u2019m again just curious about the benefit of changing legislation to extend when that power is already there to make a second\u2014I forget the language around it\u2014authorisation, and, in my mind, while there might be administrative ease rolled into a decision to do this, it removes some oversight. There is a balance here in terms of the right to strike and the ability to strike, but we\u2019re also ensuring that we have a defence force that is capable and ready to go, certainly in emergencies and certainly when we need to act quickly\u2014you\u2019ll have no dispute from me on that. I think the question is one about appropriate ministerial oversight or parliamentary oversight, and the mechanism already exists. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThis is an issue that\u2019s tied to the commencement; it\u2019s obviously an issue that\u2019s tied to clause 4, as well. Interestingly, there are amendments on the Table that speak to this and the fact that in many ways, this part of the amendments is simply not necessary to meet the problem of us being able to give that direction over the Christmas break. I\u2019d welcome a comment from the Minister, and certainly if I\u2019ve misunderstood the advice from the officials through the Minister, but otherwise it\u2019s an issue that I\u2019ll certainly be bringing up in the debate on the next clause of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8b87afa948f46ebb257be7bf4d116e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8b87afa948f46ebb257be7bf4d116e6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Teanau Tuiono\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 2, providing for the bill to come into force on a day set by Order in Council, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226a3ce36c8e614f33869e3eeaa58e1bf2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002226b67d9dc9394ac2a11980f644b510c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226b67d9dc9394ac2a11980f644b510c6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 2, providing for the bill to come into force on 1 January 2027, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227a6ff02a971d4a44a4a156819103fd0a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d022c9f881a74140b1609bce772a5e91\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002242664a30b2084eecaa14aec43ec7cf61\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3bf4e6694f642eca8fc019a202af763\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242664a30b2084eecaa14aec43ec7cf61\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3bf4e6694f642eca8fc019a202af763\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK (National\u2014East Coast):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chairperson. As we seem to be traversing all parts of the bill as one, I\u2019m seeking leave for all provisions to be taken as one question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002232853b1e738d491ab2c927c38eb1cde6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232853b1e738d491ab2c927c38eb1cde6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is objection. Members, we now come to clause\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eac32f149d894fa0ac22ecceb7393316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c1e53742f2945a4a210f160cfc78f57\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: Narrow it down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242664a30b2084eecaa14aec43ec7cf61\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc16d5f7561d476da87b64910f6a59d8\u0022\u003EDana Kirkpatrick\u003C/span\u003E: Let\u2019s stick to the clauses, then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f3e04691853449f9b461c2be2461cfb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, can I just say before we start clause 3 that we were relating those questions to clause 2 back to timing. We had no closure motions. People were standing up and asking questions of the Minister. We have now closed on clause 2. It\u2019s easy for some members to have a view on that side about what fits and what doesn\u2019t, but I didn\u2019t hear any speeches or any closure motions from that side during that debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f2113c646dd2433ba5a0826bf8f12ac8\u0022\u003EClause 3  Principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00227c4876eb3bfe4680854f35afd5d68a61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c4876eb3bfe4680854f35afd5d68a61\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to clause 3. This is the debate on the principal Act. The question is that clause 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239352b19a57a496f8f0f9c12e4b59e48\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair. Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285f637bf55f7439b8bef106a3fc22043\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Ooh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226eff28d5ad514856a8f9d881efd5073d\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: Woah!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022668a45ba92d4426f8ce87d104a807306\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2ea7f14e4ef4a298ce009df6bb58763\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2ea7f14e4ef4a298ce009df6bb58763\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I did not realise that mic was on. Thank you, Madam Chair. I do have a question for the Minister on the principal Act, because what we\u2019re seeing here is that the bill only covers adjustments to the Defence Act 1990, which is appropriate. However, as we have heard from the Minister on quite a few instances, there are broader implications\u2014we talk about health and safety, but we also talk in terms of emergency management. I know that in terms of the Civil Defence Emergency Management Act 2002, there are clauses specifically pertaining to the Defence Force, and those are from a health and safety perspective. We\u2019ve also got the Health and Safety at Work Act 2015. I want to check with the Minister: are there no actual amendments to those two other Acts as well that could be affected by the decision that has been made in this bill? It is a short question, but I think it\u2019s an important question on the relativity of the other Acts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb2fba01a9484c30bae1d670f5b8537f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb2fba01a9484c30bae1d670f5b8537f\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E No, the clause is very clear: the bill amends the Defence Act 1990, and then there\u2019s a full stop. That\u2019s it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002203970b4ede634d4c82bbc0cbf7c88207\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A04; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022828cd3a24f2c4e43a46d5a96fc17919c\u0022\u003EClause 4  Section 9 amended (Use of Armed Forces to provide public service or assist civil power)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00224a4bfe6f38f54201a1fe7528a91ee5bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a4bfe6f38f54201a1fe7528a91ee5bd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to clause 4. This is the debate on the amendment to section 9, \u201CSection 9 amended (Use of Armed Forces to provide public service or assist civil power)\u201D. The question is that clause 4 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022 data-id=\u00220734939fb8cc404493b4f0c4c315df40\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220734939fb8cc404493b4f0c4c315df40\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I look forward to asking some questions of the Minister on this clause. Some of them I\u2019ve signalled because they do also tie to commencement, but it really is about identifying the legislative gap here and why we need this as a solution. I have gone back a few times now and read section 9 of the existing Defence Act. My read of this section is that the legislators at the time foresaw circumstances such as the Minister describes, and this is why there are no restrictions on the powers under section 9(2), which is that the \u201CArmed Forces shall be used to provide any public service in connection with an industrial dispute except in accordance with the written authority of the Minister, and that authority shall specify the part or parts of the Armed Forces that may be used and the public service or public services that may be provided.\u201D, and also, importantly, subsection (4): this is where the Prime Minister or, if the Prime Minister is not available, the next most senior Minister, on available information that they\u2019re satisfied with from the Commissioner of Police, they may instruct, essentially, the Defence Force to work with the New Zealand Police, in emergency circumstances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EAll of us, of course, would want that power to exist. The defence forces are different from other parts of our workforce, and they absolutely deserve respect, but we acknowledge that there may be circumstances, such as those described in existing section 9(2) and existing section 9(4), where the Minister or the Prime Minister may need to give an authorisation that changes that. But I think that the legislators at the time foresaw that this may need to happen in quick succession or at multiple times. The check on whether that\u2019s legitimate is, essentially, that period of 14 days, and that requires a Minister or the Prime Minister to turn their minds to whether it\u2019s appropriate or not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThis is a really crucial function of our executive: the way in which they exercise their discretion. Actually, it feeds an entire, quite a large-ish group of lawyers\u2019 work in New Zealand: public lawyers, who look at the use of discretionary power and, from time to time, will bring judicial review cases, not on the substance of a decision made but on whether particular Ministers or decision makers turn their minds to the things that they ought to have before making that decision. It\u2019s a signal that, again, the right to strike is important. My view is that this was foreseen in the current legislation and it is already provided for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EAgain, I\u2019m just trying to understand whether there are administrative issues that I can\u2019t see, which, if there are, the next question after that is: do they outweigh the right to protest and the right to fair consideration, that those employed in these civilian roles hold within our defence system? So simply that there is administrative delay would, to my mind, not be sufficient to say that we should then extend the period to 30 days. I imagine that the Minister, if a circumstance like this arose, would have a fair warning that there might be an expiry in the period\u2014as we do now, in fact, heading into the Christmas period\u2014so an assessment could be made before the actual expiration of the first authorisation in time for the Minister to, with due diligence, consider the circumstances and whether the second authorisation was needed over a period, and, also, take some advice about how far that second authorisation would get us and whether the House was likely to be sitting again or to resume at that period in time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022aaaf7f4371fa4285bfc4ee0f0968652c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aaaf7f4371fa4285bfc4ee0f0968652c\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just following on from Vanushi Walters, I want to ask a question of the Minister regarding clause 4(1). In the current drafting of section 9(8) of the Defence Act 1990, both subsections (2) and (4)\u2014one of them pertaining to the Prime Minister or a senior Minister and one of them to the Minister in the chair, the Minister of Defence. What I don\u2019t understand is why only the subsection (2) authority has been extended from 14 days to 30 days but not subsection (4). Presumably, the Prime Minister will have even greater power, or should be warranted, compared to the Minister of Defence. My first question is why only one of them was increased.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EBut also, I think my second question is that the purpose of the bill and the intention of the bill, as the Minister stated in some of the earlier debates, is to address the instances where the House is not sitting during the holiday period, and, therefore, if the Minister isn\u2019t able to do what is needed in the event of a strike, for example, then the House needs to be recalled to be able to make that decision, but I don\u2019t see how that relates to the 30 days, because the scenario that the Minister has referred to is covered under subsection (2). The only other thing I can think of is that it\u2019s more of an unchecked\u2014and I don\u2019t know if it is, so the Minister can correct me\u2014extension of the Minister\u2019s power under subsection (2) from 14 days to 30 days, with no real, I guess, logical purpose for this extension, as addressed by the issue statement of this bill in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThose are my two questions for the Minister. I guess the first one is: why is it that only subsection (2) has been extended to 30 days? The other one is: considering it\u2019s addressed in subclause (2) of clause 4 already, is there any need for us to extend it to 30 days in the first place? We do have an amendment under my name to revert the date from 30 days back to 14, and I would like to ask the Minister to consider that amendment, unless the Minister is able to provide a response to my questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022 data-id=\u00220199f33e015d426a9cd83c13b19de138\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220199f33e015d426a9cd83c13b19de138\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Speaking to this particular clause, one of the things that I\u2019m always aware of with the New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) are, sort of, plan B strategies: something to make sure that there are fallback positions to allow the continuation of much of the work that they do. One of those is, of course, that the commander in chief, or in this case the Governor-General, has the opportunity to extend a number of matters\u2014not just for the NZDF, but, ultimately, has the power in many circumstances to be able to just go on and extend matters to allow to consider it a plan B for some of the occasions when the House might not be sitting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EIn fact, it was only last week at the Armistice Day, the Remembrance Day commemoration at Pukeahu, that the Governor-General was introduced as the commander in chief, which, of course, whether it\u2019s in title alone\u2014but it means that it comes with the responsibility of our New Zealand Defence Force and the ability to extend these matters until, at least, the House does sit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EThere are a number of amendments that have been put forward in the name of my colleague Vanushi Walters. I have a couple there, too, with respect to clause 4. One of those is that there is no need for the changes that are being proposed by the Minister because of that contingency plan, whereby the commander in chief, in this case the Governor-General, can, in her power, extend these powers anyway until at least the House comes back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003ENow, the only period where there are 30 days where the House isn\u2019t sitting is through the Christmas period. I\u2019ve looked through all the sitting calendars over the past few years and the only other time where it gets quite long is usually around July where there\u2019s a three-week break, maybe even a four-week break, but that\u2019s not 30 days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220163f493865845b2aeb9c30858584495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299c6d64005ab42d2adaebb8e5706ceba\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: What about an election?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227a03f6acfd94de088e6848d19d44a25\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not 30 days. I hear from the other side there, \u201CWhat about an election?\u201D Well, there are still caretaker powers for a Government up until the time that a Government is actually put into place. I know that\u2014I know that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220163f493865845b2aeb9c30858584495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cef15f3cf1904aa0ba1224978972f625\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: But the House doesn\u2019t sit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a3906052cb64d9ca2271b203ddd1841\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I know that, but there are still provisions in the Defence Act that, actually, as Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan has already pointed out, the Prime Minister can still do that; the Governor-General can still do that. The Governor-General doesn\u2019t change at the same time as the elections; it doesn\u2019t change the same time as the Government. There\u2019s a reason why continuity happens that way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EThere are a number of amendments there that we put forward to the Minister for her consideration. One of those is in my name, where we look towards a middle ground, if you will, from Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan, whose amendment proposes going to 14 days. Of course, the Minister wants to do 30 days. I say, why don\u2019t we meet in the middle? Why don\u2019t we just call it three weeks and call it 21 days? That\u2019s a good, I think, safe place and a safe option, while remembering that we still have these contingency plans or plan Bs or reserve action plan that has the continuity or has the ability to make sure that there is continuity in these particular matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EThe other part too is, to my point in my amendment, and to support the words of my colleague Vanushi Walters: actually, what\u2019s being proposed here by the Minister in this particular bill in clause 4 is just simply not needed. They\u2019re just simply not needed. There are enough contingency plans to make sure that there is continuity in these matters. There\u2019s an amendment there in my name that says, actually, we should just forget what\u2019s being proposed here by the Minister and this Government in clause 4 and simply just delete what they\u2019re proposing, because it\u2019s just not needed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EThe questions there are pretty straightforward to the Minister. That is about the commander in chief and their ability to make sure that there is continuity, regardless of whether or not the House is sitting. The other matter is, of course\u2014because it was raised by National backbench MPs\u2014what about if there\u2019s an election? I wonder if the Minister has a view on whether or not the Government, or a Government, an executive, still has the provisional powers up until a new Government is elected\u2014of course, on a no-surprises basis. Then the other part is the question about whether or not the Minister would consider bringing that into a sort of middle ground of 21 days for her consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022 data-id=\u0022534c14f6ec524473a864da188f244a8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022534c14f6ec524473a864da188f244a8e\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I think there are some good questions in there, which I\u2019m happy to answer. To the question on why only section 9(2) is extended\u2014by new section 9(9), inserted by clause 4(2)\u2014rather than section 9(4): well, section 9(4) stays the same for the use of supporting the police during a serious emergency\u2014for example, a terrorism emergency\u2014because we just don\u2019t get notice of that stuff, normally, and so we have to deal with it straight away. These provisions are for a different purpose and are not amended by this bill, because this bill deals with other situations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EWhy are we changing the expiry of an authorisation in relation to Public Service employees outside the New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) from 14 days to 30 days\u2014that was the question that was pretty much asked? Well, it\u2019s a practical and pragmatic change. The 14-day expiry is no longer fit for purpose in the context of present-day industrial action. Since the introduction of the Employment Relations Act 2000, industrial action has become a last-resort measure that occurs only when there has been a significant breakdown in negotiations, which can mean a longer strike. Modern industrial action\u2014including practices of work to rule, or partial strike\u2014mean that industrial action is now more likely to last longer than 14 days, and so any associated authorisation for military personnel to conduct the work of striking staff is more likely to require an extension.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003ECertainly, I can remember when the military had to be called in to run the prisons after strikes, and I don\u2019t think that too many people would think that letting our most violent offenders free in the prisons, or to leave them without getting food or exercise or anything else, would be a good idea. We do need to be aware of that. I consider that 30 days is a reasonable period for which the Minister of Defence may authorise military personnel to conduct the work of Public Service employees outside of the NZDF.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EAnother question was: could an assessment be made before the need for an authorisation arose, to anticipate a recess of Parliament? Well, if the requirements of the bill were not met, an authorisation could not be made. It\u2019s not just, \u201CWe\u2019re coming up to a recess. Let\u2019s all have this provision in place.\u201D, because all these other things have to happen, and it would not be appropriate to grant an authorisation in anticipation as the requirements would not yet have been met, and these decisions are not made by the Minister of Defence\u2014either myself, or those who have gone before and those who will, in the future, come after me\u2014based on a gut feel or a reckon. They\u2019re taken on very strict legal advice, and they\u2019re actually done at the request of the Chief of Defence Force. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EThere has been some suggestion that the Government is pushing this through. This bill is not something that we\u2014it\u2019s not on our mandate and it\u2019s not something that we campaigned on. The reason is that the issue has arisen at the request of the Chief of Defence Force. It\u2019s the Chief of Defence Force\u2014the actual operational person in charge of everything Defence Force\u2014who needs to have this done. It\u2019s not some will of mine to go round making up some authorisations or anything, and no Minister of Defence wants to have to do that. It\u2019s a fact that it\u2019s an actual need that\u2019s been found to be there, and it\u2019s being addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EAs for bringing in the Governor-General to make rulings on all this, I think it\u2019s always best to actually try not to politicise the Governor-General or her role. I think that it\u2019s incredibly important that Governors-General are able to undertake their constitutional role without us trying to put them in a difficult position and politicise them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022403b77eaabc94cfd9fb79c50b9cc356b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022403b77eaabc94cfd9fb79c50b9cc356b\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the Minister for those responses, which I found very illuminating, particularly the point around partial strikes. I think the Minister put it exactly the way a number of members in this Chamber have put it around the reasons why you need to retain partial strikes: because it gives an avenue for people to be able to express themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EFor those who don\u2019t know what a partial strike is\u2014which you can no longer do without getting pinged\u2014it\u2019s like, for example, if you\u2019ve got a T-shirt with a slogan on it or you do something just to make your point, to allow you to have some sort of political expression. I wonder if the Minister would be interested in looking at an amendment that would allow partial strikes in this case, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EI ask that because we have a particular, unique situation with the workforce in the defence sector, as well, where you have military personnel and you have civilian personnel. If you\u2019re military personnel, you sign up for that. You take your orders, and you go through and there\u2019s a hierarchy, but there are certain things you can\u2019t do if you\u2019re a military person. You can\u2019t go on strike. You can\u2019t do partial strikes. You can\u2019t do those sorts of things, because that\u2019s what you sign up for. But working alongside them are 3,000 civilian workers. Amongst those, the last time I heard, were a thousand of them that are unionised. So it\u2019s about 3,000. Maybe it\u2019s decreasing because they\u2019re jumping on a plane and going over to Australia\u2014and it seems to be a lot of people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EBut I think there\u2019s a good argument here, and I find myself agreeing with the Minister in terms of the ability to have a partial strike to allow people to express themselves and have that point, as well, because, as the Minister was saying earlier, the reason why we\u2019re turning towards the 30 days or 14 days and so forth is because of the likelihood of stronger industrial action, because that is the only pathway forward. That is one of the only things that people can do. So all of this bill is around trying to respond to the situation that happened last year, in 2024, which was the impact on those workers who, as was their right, were organising themselves to take industrial action, to strike. And so we are here debating this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EMy question is: will the Minister consider, given the unique situation of the workers within the defence sector, an amendment that would allow partial strikes as part of this bill? If not, could the Minister provide a rationale as to why, given that this is a very particular situation? It\u2019s a new situation, as well, and there needs to be a way for these workers to be able to find a way to express themselves\u2014remembering that when they took the original action, the offer was zero pay rise. So workers are frustrated that the only way they can find a way to express themselves was to strike. But I think a partial strike, I think, would allow them to, I don\u2019t know, take the steam off a bit. So will the Minister entertain an amendment that would allow partial strikes as a part of this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6c3e00b53d645ba8b096660529d6b17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6c3e00b53d645ba8b096660529d6b17\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Vanushi Walters was up first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022 data-id=\u0022898b71810716476ca6664db8f78197a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022898b71810716476ca6664db8f78197a6\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ve had lots of coffee this morning, and thank you to the Minister for her responses thus far. I have a proposal for the Minister of Defence to consider on the basis of her answers. A colleague has asked the question about why clause 4, section 9 amended, remains at 14 days versus this one shifting, and the response is there\u2019s a need. Yes, I see that response. However, I think the fact that subsection (4) remains at 14 days shows us that there\u2019s a recognition that there should be ministerial oversight when these decisions are made, in terms of the Defence Force contributing to the police\u2019s actions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI\u2019m trying to work out whether there\u2019s a way through the middle to allow that oversight to happen rather than just extend it to the 30 days. I mean, my first question would be: what is the background in terms of understanding how that number was arrived at and what\u2019s the logic of getting from 14 to 30? And, if possible, what are the specific situations that have given rise to that number\u2014appreciating that where we have senior people in those roles on the ground who understand what\u2019s happening, we absolutely should be paying attention to the circumstances that they say present?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThe proposal: I\u2019ve already spoken about a second authorisation being possible. We acknowledge that is possible. I\u2019m not yet sure that there\u2019s sufficient administrative burden to prevent that being the best route for us to continue to have in place. However, is there a way in which we could write into the Defence Act the ability of the Minister to approve the continuation of a first authorisation on the Minister\u2019s affirmation that the circumstances continue to exist where such authorisation is appropriate? I\u2019m just saying that to have eyes across an ongoing situation is important. We\u2019ve acknowledged that in subsection (4), and there\u2019s a middle ground which potentially could minimise some of the administrative burden of requiring a second authorisation to be prepared and legal advice to be provided on that and truly robust scrutiny to be given, but some level of oversight from the Minister could be written into the statute. That seems like something that\u2019s worth considering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI mean, briefly going back to the first thing of the second authorisation, if we were to make this change and we got to day 29 and for some reason Parliament couldn\u2019t sit within that period, I imagine that the Minister at that stage would send through a second authorisation if needed, and so would use that power that I\u2019m saying could just be used during the summer break period, regardless.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EMy second question was just taking further a point that the Hon Peeni Henare raised about caretaker powers. My read of current section 9(8)(b) of the Principal Act is that precludes the ability of the Minister of Defence and a caretaker Government, post-election, to be able to use the powers of authorisation. I just thought for clarity\u2019s sake it would be useful to get the Minister\u2019s view of whether that is her understanding of the read of that section, or whether post an election, a Minister of Defence could use the powers\u2014and, actually, a Prime Minister, as well\u2014under section 9(2) or 9(4) in a case of an emergency; or whether it would only be, at that stage, a proclamation from the Governor-General that could put in place a measure like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThe reason I\u2019m interested is I think that our Parliament is a very different place in an MMP world. Right now in the Justice Committee, we\u2019re wrangling the difficult question of a rising number of specials and keeping within the period of the writ. We don\u2019t talk as much about the period taken to form coalitions, but we\u2019ve certainly seen periods in our past where it has taken far longer to form a coalition Government. The rules around caretaker Governments, in my view, are quite loose. There\u2019s a sense that the term \u201Ccaretaker Government\u201D means one thing when, in terms of democracy, it should truly be parcelled up into very separate forms of legitimacy that various Governments get, whether they\u2019re before the election period versus when they\u2019re after\u2014so just some clarification sought from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eac32f149d894fa0ac22ecceb7393316\u0022 data-id=\u002264c8b744e39643a99e1604af95ee0951\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eac32f149d894fa0ac22ecceb7393316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264c8b744e39643a99e1604af95ee0951\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228ed490dc704e48ce90145d33757d4a5a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00221ddb16c5d1824a8184299df13908647e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ddb16c5d1824a8184299df13908647e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Vanushi Walters\u2019 two tabled amendments to delete clause 4 are out of order as being a direct negation of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003EThe question is that the Hon Peeni Henare\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4 replacing \u201C30 days\u201D with \u201C21 days\u201D in subclause (1) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022025d575551504f269ffa4ee302fe97fd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f96f06d440e1489386ca8300d1c8e1d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f96f06d440e1489386ca8300d1c8e1d1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4 replacing \u201C30 days\u201D with \u201C14 days\u201D in subclause (1) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d1943e821aa64547a44256f818647f45\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022627fb1519add4126bf50aa9712abf608\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022627fb1519add4126bf50aa9712abf608\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Vanushi Walters\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 4 replacing subclause (1) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223e55db221da244a194cf26df87470cbb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec22681e668f47bab4cd5ed8dadb82b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec22681e668f47bab4cd5ed8dadb82b7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Peeni Henare\u2019s tabled amendment to delete subclause (2) of clause 4 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c550591ca6bb451cb1d308358e1ac97f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00225b30f5951b444cd8ab463e754950cb7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b30f5951b444cd8ab463e754950cb7a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4(2) amending new section 9(9) be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f17411493026465bb2c8de3c16aef445\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002255e2e95f79dc4183a07d59300de21aa8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 4 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A04; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 4 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228b9aeb85c7a84743812582f58e5f8c81\u0022\u003EClause 5  New section 9A inserted (Use of Armed Forces to perform work of Civil Staff)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00224ac860db54774b4c98eb71f249b830bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ac860db54774b4c98eb71f249b830bc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We now come to clause 5, the debate on new section 9A, use of armed forces to perform work of civil staff. The question is that clause 5 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022 data-id=\u00225bdaaf19ba8b471e89c58125149755ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225bdaaf19ba8b471e89c58125149755ed\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate the enthusiasm of my colleagues, because this is an important matter. We\u2019ll see just by the nature of the way the bill is that this is quite a chunky part of much of the reason why we can\u2019t support this bill. The proposals here and much of the context and the speeches that have been given to date have talked about the threat to national security, the need to uphold national security, and matters around health and safety, and those are all things that I think everybody in this House will agree to. That\u2019s the reason for the amendment tabled in my name that looks towards proposing tightening up this area. This is where I believe the greatest grey area section is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EIn my amendment, what we\u2019re asking is that the Minister of Defence makes it very clear that we be far more explicit in the description of what it is those roles are. We know what they are. In fact, a number of speeches in this House have already spoken to it, whether it\u2019s the protection of ammunition depots or dumps, whether it\u2019s the ability to make sure a ship or a vessel can go out to sea, etc. So what I take and what I glean from that is that the New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) knows exactly what those roles are, so let\u2019s make sure it\u2019s clear and that there are no grey areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019m proposing in my amendment tabled in my name is new subsection 9A(3)(a), inserted by clause 5: \u201CAny authorisation granted under section 9A must comply with the following limitations.\u201D\u2014a very key word there, limitations. \u201CArmed forces personnel may only perform functions that are (a) essential to maintain the security of defence installations and restricted areas\u201D\u2014that make sense to me; it\u2019s already been mentioned several times throughout the course of this bill\u2014\u201C(b) necessary for the maintenance and safety of weapons, munitions, and explosive stores\u201D\u2014another one that has been well traversed during speeches in this House\u2014\u201C(c) required for aircraft and naval vessel safety checks essential for operational readiness; and\u201D\u2014it answers the question about making sure whether or not we\u2019re still able to deploy\u2014\u201C(d) urgently required to prevent imminent harm to health or safety.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EHealth and safety is, of course, one of those important issues that I know this side of the House takes very seriously, so let\u2019s put those into scope here. Let\u2019s allow the Defence Force, under very clear legislation, to understand exactly what it is and the parameters with which they can use these powers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EOf course, the flip side to that is\u2014and this is where I think this is another one of those grey areas that my good colleague Teanau Tuiono has raised on a number of occasions\u2014then where else could the armed forces personnel be used? What I\u2019m proposing in my amendment is that armed forces personnel must not perform\u2014and I\u2019ll be very clear, must not perform\u2014(a) routine administrative, clerical, or non-critical maintenance duties or (b) work unrelated to national security or immediate health and safety. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EThose are pretty straightforward. That clears up the grey areas that many of us have with respect to this particular clause to make sure that the scope of this bill actually allows the NZDF personnel to do exactly what it is that is required of them without some kind of loose terminology that says it is in the national interest. Well, this one sets it out a little bit more and makes it clearer, at least from the reckons on this side of the House. I wonder if the Minister\u2014and that\u2019s the first question I put to the Minister, if she would consider any parts of that amendment that allow us to remove those grey areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EAlso the other important side of it is to make sure that NZDF personnel aren\u2019t simply being used for the sake of being used to backfill positions which aren\u2019t in national security interests or health and safety matters. That will help a big issue that the unions raised when they brought matters not only to the Labour Party and the Green Party, but also in parts of their submission. This kind of carte blanche opportunity to use NZDF personnel anywhere and everywhere it sees fit can be removed by this simple amendment that I\u2019m offering to this Government in a way to make sure that this bill is sharper and actually gets to the heart of what it is we\u2019re trying to achieve here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022 data-id=\u0022f412f4660c124979a45e70f41ec36cdd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f412f4660c124979a45e70f41ec36cdd\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, thank you. It is a pretty simple amendment from the member the Hon Peeni Henare The point is, though, that it\u2019s a very prescriptive approach which leaves very clear gaps. For example, there would be no basis to backfill roles to secure the security of sensitive information or equipment, nor to ensure essential military training with partners can continue. Exclusion of administrative roles would leave a gap. I don\u2019t like that term \u201Cjust administrative roles\u201D; they\u2019re actually very important roles. There could be a circumstance where those roles are actually critical to a core defence output. That\u2019s why the bill\u2019s requirements are around the impact of the industrial action, not the specific roles that are in or out. It would be unworkable to apply the member\u2019s amendments in practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EI would also say to the member: think back to COVID times with the work of the Defence Force then, our uniformed personnel then\u2014all within accordance with what he\u2019s saying\u2014and the answer would have to be no. I\u2019ve heard speeches from the Opposition saying the Defence Force do not sign up to these jobs. They didn\u2019t sign up for security guard duty, either. They didn\u2019t sign up to having to front, every day, the COVID discussions or, let\u2019s say, sermons from the pulpit. They didn\u2019t sign up to that either, particularly when they didn\u2019t actually have the power to do the things they should have been able to do, instead giving that to the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment staff. So I think it\u2019s really important that we understand we don\u2019t always know what\u2019s going to happen, and that\u2019s why it\u2019s very specific about the effects of the industrial action, not who\u2019s taking industrial action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EThe other thing is, too, it does need to be in accordance with the rules under this amendment, and they are very strict rules. There\u2019s no other employer in the country\u2014that I can think of\u2014that has to come to Parliament to say why they have to shift staff from one job to another; it\u2019s really only the Chief of Defence Force. This is not for the benefit of the Government; this is actually for the benefit of the Defence Force and the Chief of Defence Force, who has the authority over thousands of people. But also, it\u2019s not just that: it\u2019s the requirement to do what is needed for the country. It\u2019s not for the Government; it\u2019s for the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EI\u2019m sure that people, when they think about this a bit more\u2014administrative roles are not just administrative, they are important, otherwise they would not be there. We don\u2019t have surplus funding to fund roles as \u201Cjust\u201D something; they are important. That\u2019s why the Chief of Defence Force needs to be able to backfill those if needed in certain circumstances\u2014not every day; not anything else; has to come, cap in hand, basically, to the Minister of Defence, who in this case is me, and say, \u201CThis is why I need it\u201D, with legal advice, with the reasons for it, because it is a big step to take these steps. It\u2019s a big thing to do, and we don\u2019t do it just because we feel like it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EAlso, just dealing with the fact that this preserves the right to strike. It is very clear there is the right to strike; there is a right to partial strikes. But the Chief of Defence Force has to also, in certain circumstances, have the power to backfill where that\u2019s necessary. Otherwise, we end up with people\u2014health and safety issues, obviously paramount; safety, security of the nation: paramount. The Chief of Defence Force needs to be able to do his or, in the future, her job. It is really important that they not be tied by the fact that this Parliament now wants to debate partial strikes. It\u2019s nothing to do with partial strikes; it\u2019s actually about giving the Chief of Defence Force the power to do his job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022 data-id=\u00224532448fff17458ca5971739fc7e075a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224532448fff17458ca5971739fc7e075a\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ve just got a question in relation to new section 9A and particularly subsection (2). I would be interested in the Minister elucidating for us\u2014what reassurance can she give us in terms of the ratio of military personnel who have the relevant qualifications, skills, and experience to fill those civilian roles, and what work has she done to be able to reassure the House that such is the case?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EI think this is important because\u2014even though I see the language in the clause in relation to the work needing to be done to not prejudice national security or \u201Cthe ability or readiness (or both) of the Armed Forces to perform specific operational activities\u201D, or when it is necessary for reasons of health and safety\u2014there doesn\u2019t seem to be a provision around also having those relevant skills, qualifications, and experience for those roles. I think, to me, that poses the question as to whether the backfilling of those roles will be performed at the very same level of competency as the civilian roles that may not be performed at the time due to industrial action, for example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EI think this is particularly important because, previously, one of the safeguards that we had was the sort of parliamentary debate that would be triggered earlier, and, in such a case, the Minister could have given a much earlier reassurance and explanation as to whether there are the adequate skills, qualifications, and experience to fill those roles. With the diminishing of those safeguards, now it becomes even less clear to parliamentarians if we\u2019re going to be able to get those answers now that a debate wouldn\u2019t be happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EGoing back to my question: I\u2019m keen to seek the Minister\u2019s elucidation as to whether she sought advice as to the range of those skills, qualifications, and experience, and, if so, maybe to what extent did she get details in relation to that? If she got information that shows, perhaps, that there is a gap between those in the military personnel and the civilian personnel, if there is any, what work would be undertaken to make sure that military personnel are equipped with the necessary skills and competencies to ensure that when the Minister or future Ministers choose to backfill those roles, those roles can be performed to a degree that actually a civilian would have been able to do so?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022 data-id=\u0022d12cfb7ac32f4af2ad68af1f292789b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d12cfb7ac32f4af2ad68af1f292789b1\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Happy to answer that question. I realise that the member who asked those questions is probably not very familiar with the excellent people in our New Zealand Defence Force and the remarkable skills, trades, and professions that they undertake. They\u2019re not only infantry people, they\u2019re also engineers, they\u2019re lawyers, they\u2019re doctors, they\u2019re nurses, they\u2019re electricians, they\u2019re airplane technicians; there\u2019s all sorts of trades and professions within our uniformed staff as well as within our civilian staff. Some of those actually cross over. Sometimes, for instance if you\u2019re on a Navy ship, you\u2019ll find that the galley is actually crewed by uniformed staff. They\u2019re the chefs and the waiters and everything else; they\u2019re the stewards. But if you go into an army camp, you might find that they\u2019re civilian staff. It depends where they are and what they\u2019re doing, and if they\u2019re deployed, because it\u2019s the uniformed staff who are deployed, which means actually leaving their families and being able to go and live on a ship or go and live in some tent somewhere or whatever. They are extremely highly trained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EI\u2019d say there is a reason that Defence Force staff normally have no difficulties when they\u2019re sick of being deployed\u2014or their families, more likely, are sick of them being deployed\u2014and they want to go into civilian roles: it is because they are highly employable. They are trained to think on their feet, to be able to not only understand and take orders, but also to think about them and to question, if necessary. So you\u2019re dealing with people who are highly trained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EThey would only conduct the work of civil staff if they had the suitable skills for the roles, and the fact is, you\u2019ll see in many parts of the Defence Force; there are both civilian and uniformed staff there. Even in the public relations part of it, there\u2019s both. There are all sorts of things. There are roles that are both, but it\u2019s all about what is necessary at that time. Safety will always be a paramount consideration. There would be nothing that I can think of in the Defence Force around health and safety, generally, that doesn\u2019t have uniformed staff already working in there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EI\u2019m pleased to be able to give the member a little rendition about some of the excellent training, and, might I just say, it\u2019s another way of saying to our young people out there: come and join the New Zealand Defence Force. If I can use this as a recruiting measure, I\u2019m going to do so because they come out very happy, very well trained, very fit, and very ready for action. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022 data-id=\u0022c323027704fd45268502e635e14ac92e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c323027704fd45268502e635e14ac92e\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I have a question for the Minister in relation to new section 9A, the \u201CUse of Armed Forces to perform work of Civil Staff\u201D. In particular, I\u2019m quite interested to understand how this addresses some of the workforce issues that we have in defence. I\u2019ll admit my familiarity in this space does stem from experience in the police, where there\u2019s previously been a freeze on non-sworn staff in those roles, even a sinking lid in the past. What that has resulted in is uniformed staff coming in to fill those civilian roles, and that has a range of complexities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019m interested to understand from the Minister is how this change under new section 9A addresses some of those systemic workforce issues and, in particular, the ability to not only attract but to retain those specialist roles that we want to make sure that we have in place, and to fix some of those basics, such as making sure that those specialist roles are paid fairly, that they\u2019re not overworked, and they\u2019re given the resources to do jobs safely and professionally, because it\u2019s some of those pressures within the workforce that, effectively, make it really difficult for those people who continue to work in those roles. What I\u2019m interested to know is, if we have uniformed staff taking up those roles that have been in the past civilian roles, what impact does that have on the workforce? Does it increase the stress on those staff? Are they taking up roles that they are potentially\u2014are they trained for them? Are they prepared to do that work? Are they having to do more than their fair share as a result of freezing uptake of civilian roles in that space?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EMy other concern that I\u2019m interested to hear from the Minister is that we\u2019ve heard some commentary in the public that when you have a situation where you\u2019ve got uniformed staff being brought in to fill when civilians are taking some kind of industrial action\u2014how does that work for the general, I guess, cohesiveness of a workforce? Does that undermine, potentially, a collaborative approach to working together when you\u2019ve got one half coming in to fill the spaces and could be perceived, potentially, as undermining the industrial action being taken by civilian staff in order to get a fair pay increase? How does that work for the workforce in general?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003ESo just to recap, my question to the Minister really is: how does this bill, specifically new section 9A, address some of those more fundamental workforce issues such as attracting and retaining key roles and making sure there is a cohesive team in place that can be called upon in times when New Zealand needs them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022 data-id=\u0022354406f8222542669ee37be7b9cb9f70\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022354406f8222542669ee37be7b9cb9f70\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Thank you to the Minister for her ongoing engagement. I want to speak to some of my tabled amendments to this part of the bill. I actually have to start with an apology because, reading back through them, I note that I\u2019ve submitted two identical proposals, which was not intentional at all. I\u2019m going to put that down to the House being in urgency and attempting to get my head across a number of different bills, so I\u2019m just flagging that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI would start at the amendment that was submitted at 7.10.05 p.m. This is amending clause 5 and amends new section 9A and inserts new clause 9A(2)(c), which would say, \u201Cand consideration has been given to the impact of granting an authority on the right to strike.\u201D It\u2019s an explicit inclusion of the right to strike within the language of the legislation. I was delighted to hear the Minister reference the right and say that it is not extinguished, that it exists, and that it\u2019s not extinguished, which I think is absolutely wonderful to hear from the Minister. Of course, we\u2019ve got a strong history in New Zealand of strike action, so we know that strike action is one of the methods that does lead us to fairer outcomes really in New Zealand. We\u2019ve had a history of striking in New Zealand from 1821 where M\u0101ori timber workers were striking about the way in which they get remunerated. They were remunerated at the time in, I believe, food and consumable products, and the ask from them was to be able to be remunerated in something that could be tradable, essentially. These significant moments in our history are important, and we\u2019ve had the Waihi gold miners\u2019 strike actions in 1912 and then several instances steadily into our future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThe right does need to be protected in New Zealand law. It obviously exists in international law\u2014in the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR). That, I think, is an interesting place to start because it recognises the right, but it says it has to be exercised in a way that is within the bounds of domestic law. What domestic law says or doesn\u2019t say about the right to strike is very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EEarlier, I spoke about judicial reviews and the use of discretionary power and the challenge on what a Minister must turn their mind to when exercising their discretion. This is why my view is that if you had this phrase within subsection (2)(c) of the legislation, it\u2019s a clear directive to the Minister that that must be specifically taken into account before an authorisation could be made. I\u2019m hopeful that the Minister, having acknowledged the importance of the right and that it isn\u2019t extinguished, agrees with me that that direction is a useful one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI then go to the tabled amendment submitted at 7.10.06 p.m. This is the one that\u2019s replicated, so the next one is one minute later. This one proposes to amend clause 5 to amend new section 9A(2)(a) and insert the words \u201Cbefore the expiry of the authority made under section 9A\u201D between the words \u201Cthe work needs to be performed\u201D and \u201Cin order to avoid prejudicing\u201D. The intent behind this proposed amendment is to indicate that there\u2019s a certain amount of urgency to the work that needs to be done, which is, again, a request for the Minister to turn their mind toward the urgency of the work that needs to be done so that there can\u2019t be a pause until striking work has come back into those roles. My view, again, is that we were expanding any discretionary power, if there is a useful option to provide some legislative guidance, as there is in this case, then I think that that is useful for the Minister to bear in mind and decide whether it\u2019s appropriate for us to include it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI do have other amendments that I\u2019m interested in speaking to if the Chair is so willing, so I will be seeking another call. The next one is the amendment filed at 7.10.08 p.m., and that amends clause 5 to amend new section 9A(2)(b) to add after \u201Chealth\u201D the following phrase: \u201Cwhere regard has first been given to whether other measures can be put into place in the short term to avoid the need for the granting of the authority.\u201D I\u2019m just going to go to new section 9A(2)(b). This is where \u201CThe Minister may grant an authority \u2026 if the Minister believes on reasonable grounds that\u2014 \u2026 (b) it is necessary for the work to be performed for reasons of safety or health.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI agree with this. I think it is important that if there are health and safety concerns, the Minister ought to be able to make such an authorisation. However, I\u2019ve managed health and safety processes before when I was the manager of YouthLaw Aotearoa. Whenever I\u2019d create those risk registers, one of the things I examined was the various options that I could put in place to manage said circumstance. It was almost never one thing. There were always multiple potential things that could have been done. Again, the question here is whether, for example, if there was an area that was being managed by a staff member who was on strike, you could minimise access to that area because the health and safety issue had arisen in that area. I\u2019m sure discretion could be used. The question is: is legislative guidance useful, again, to anchor ourselves in the importance of the right to strike?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI am now going to the amendment filed at 7.10.09. This one is an amendment to clause 5 to add a new clause 9A(3)(c). That would be to read \u201Cthe capacity and capability risks identified in other parts of the Defence Force as a result of an authority being made and how the risk is being managed.\u201D This is in relation to where the authority has to be specified in writing and the things that it must specify. Currently, it only reads that the things to be specified are \u201C(a) the part or parts of the Armed Forces that may be used and the work that may be performed; and (b) the period for which the authority applies.\u201D I do think that it\u2019s worthwhile, if the Minister is thinking through the risks that are identified to other parts of the Defence Force as well, that those are also specified in writing. Again, it\u2019s very clear that the Minister has considered those risks and that, despite them existing, the Minister, regardless, believes that the authorisation should be granted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll then move to the tabled amendment filed at 7.10.10 p.m. This is to amend clause 5 to add new clause 9A(3)(c) to read \u201Cthe alternative arrangements that were considered in determining a need to grant an authority under section 9A.\u201D This is, again, the flip side of what I was asking before\u2014that the Minister consider various things. This is that the Minister, in writing, provides her rationale, if you like, for making those considerations that she\u2019s turned her mind to\u2014other arrangements that could have been made. My example was closing off a particular area if there are physical hazards or health hazards in a particular area that is now not staffed and just reassuring the public and, indeed, the workers who are on strike that those considerations have been considered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThe next amendment I have to speak about is the one filed at 7.10.11. This is the one to amend clause 5 to add a new clause 9A(3)(c) to read \u201Cany indication that the authority will be subject to an automatic extension.\u201D Given the other changes that have been made in this bill, I feel that the Minister may have a view, even at the stage of granting the authorisation, as to whether an extension is likely to occur. This would be useful, also, to flag at the outset in terms of that written authorisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022959aab04ffea497ea7f7e71896aca7b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022959aab04ffea497ea7f7e71896aca7b5\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank you for the contributions from members to date as well. I guess I want to begin by responding to some of the answers that the Minister has given, in particular a response to my colleague Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March. I guess if the Minister could clarify exactly what that process would be, in terms of determining how staff will be moved through. I do take the point, and I agree, that uniformed staff are highly qualified and come with a lot of expertise, but, sometimes, those with expertise and, sometimes, those specialists aren\u2019t in large numbers. There could be only a small number of people. So what is the process in order to identify when there are gaps because of an industrial dispute to move people from one particular spot to another? How is that identified? Also, what happens if you don\u2019t have qualified staff at that particular skill level available at that time? I think we want to get to a situation where we\u2019re not number eight wiring ourselves through particular processes. I do take the points that people made about COVID as well. So if I could get some clarity from the Minister on that, that would be appreciated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EAlso, the point that the Minister made around encouraging people to join the Defence Force as well: I hope that that also comes with good pay conditions, that that comes with suitable housing stock, because I have heard from uniformed personnel who have talked about some of the issues around some of the housing stocks. That would be my plea to the Minister, and hopefully, that\u2019s being sorted out\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eac32f149d894fa0ac22ecceb7393316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276902563844e4620aae472a2c80dff52\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: The irony\u2014just because last year, the money went to the uniforms, and you opposed it. You wanted the civilians. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0e9a452b736455dbf6908029f64078e\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO\u003C/span\u003E: Tim Costley might want to take a call at some particular stage instead of yelling out across the Chamber. So if that could be clarified, that would be good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EOn that, if I could draw the Minister\u2019s attention to my Amendment Paper No. 442. This deals with new section 9A, inserted by clause 5, \u201CUse of Armed Forces to perform work of Civil Staff\u201D. In my proposed amendment, I propose that \u201CIn clause 5, new section 9A(1), after \u2018Minister\u2019 (page 2, line 14), insert \u2018and following consultation with any union involved in the industrial dispute\u2019.\u201D I know that side is allergic to the unions, but we\u2019ve got ourselves in a particular situation here, where last year, the union took some action, and now we\u2019re here debating this bill as well. I think my amendment would go some way to providing an avenue for those discussions to happen as well, noting the very the different nature of the defence sector as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve got uniformed staff, civilian staff, civilian personnel, and military personnel working together. Having a way for the union\u2014the representatives for those workers\u2014to be able to have a say and to have a talk and communicate with the Minister, I think, would be a good way to alleviate the situation in the workplace, noting that in the submissions, they did talk about how this could create awkwardness, uncomfortableness within the workplace. We want to avoid that. This House should try to strive to do everything to avoid that as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EI did make the earlier point about partial strikes\u2014having the ability to do partial strikes, the ability for civilian staff to be able to use that as an avenue to highlight the industrial disputes, I think, would also go some way to sorting out those issues as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EWhile I\u2019m up here, if I could draw the Minister\u2019s attention to Amendment Paper No. 441, which relates to new section 9A(2)(a)(ii), \u201Cthe ability or readiness (or both) of the Armed Forces to perform \u2026 operational activities \u2026 that are integral to core defence outputs;\u201D. I agree: all jobs are great. Administrative jobs are really, really important, but I think it\u2019s important for us to get some specificity about what those Defence Force outputs are, because it seems very vague; it\u2019s very broad. National security: we can have discussions about that\u2014that\u2019s fine. There\u2019re some parameters around how you can have the discussions. Emergency matters: of course, really important as well. But what is the \u201Ccore defence output\u201D? It could be anything, so that kind of discretion needs to be teased out. It is something that needs to be debated more thoroughly so that we\u2019re not actually just giving a whole lot of power over to the Minister without any recourse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eac32f149d894fa0ac22ecceb7393316\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb1f331709f24cd0a4217043660592ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eac32f149d894fa0ac22ecceb7393316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb1f331709f24cd0a4217043660592ae\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022c186803b09794af6af63344cd2dbfcaa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c186803b09794af6af63344cd2dbfcaa\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Now, members, there\u2019s been quite a bit of contextualisation going on in a lot of the questions. We need to start getting reasonably specific. Probably the second part of Vanushi Walters\u2019s speech, where she spoke directly to each of her amendments was a pretty good example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022 data-id=\u0022622d072588ca4e91b5ccd5e307194150\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022622d072588ca4e91b5ccd5e307194150\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just thought I\u2019d take some of the questions in sort of no particular order\u2014a rather random order, really. I\u2019m going to add some of them together and try and come up with some responses that are acceptable to the Opposition and to Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EFirst off, it is not my role as the Minister of Defence to decide where staff are shifted, what roles they do, or anything like that; that\u2019s the Chief of Defence Force. That\u2019s why he\u2019s in that job, not me. It\u2019s very important that the Minister is not to be involved in that; otherwise, we could be accused of trying to give a preference to one person over another. That would be a very bad thing to happen, and this is not acceptable in a democratic society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EThe bill very clearly maintains the right to strike. There is no attempt to affect the right to strike, because, you know, one of the hallmarks of a democracy is the right to strike. I always think it\u2019s so important for people to remember that the right to strike is actually part of our democracy. It doesn\u2019t mean, though, that an employer has to sit back and do absolutely nothing. It is important that when it\u2019s a critical situation to deal with, like the Defence Force has to deal with, at the appropriate time, and only in those times, and it\u2019s very clearly set out in the bill, that there is an ability to shift staff from one job to another in terms of uniform staff to civilian staff roles. Now, that doesn\u2019t mean to say that the Chief of Defence Force is going to do this all the time; all these other steps have to be in place\u2014all the other requirements, plus the Minister has to sign it off. It is really important that this is not just a general willy-nilly where they can do anything they wanted. Understand, too, for the Chief of Defence Force to shift a uniformed staff, a trained armed forces person, across to do a role which a civilian has been doing takes that person away from the role that the Chief of Defence Force actually wants them to be doing. So this is not something that is just every day; it is only in very prescribed situations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EThere is an amendment to add that the work needs to be informed before the expiry of an authorisation to turn the mind to urgency. It\u2019s superfluous. The bill\u2019s really clear that the conditions in new section 9A(2), inserted by clause 5, need to be satisfied for the duration of the authorisation. This is not everyday work; this is a situation where those particular requirements are in place. If they\u2019re not met, then there\u2019s no need for an authorisation, because it would not be valid and it would be subject to judicial review and the Minister would be subject to debate in the House and it would be a matter for the House to debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EShould there be an amendment to require the health and safety risk to be imminent? Well, that goes further than the current Employment Relations Act. So that would be more restrictive than the current arrangements. So, no, that would potentially create a health and safety risk that doesn\u2019t exist or present.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EHow would our military personnel feel about being tasked with civilian roles? \u201CWon\u2019t this influence morale?\u201D, essentially, is a question from Parliament. Well, I\u2019m glad everyone is so worried about the morale of the Defence Force, because I am too. But I\u2019m really happy to report that morale is pretty jolly good these days because they\u2019re getting to do the things that they joined for. I\u2019m not asking them to stand outside managed isolation and quarantine facilities. I\u2019m not asking them to go and guard beaches, like the poor old police were made to do. I\u2019m actually asking them to do their job, which is exactly what they are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003ECan I also tell you that, first and foremost, our defence personnel are professionals\u2014they\u2019re absolutely foremost professionals in what they do. These types of taskings that we\u2019re referring today only occur in extreme circumstances. This is all about needing to respond just when needed, not every day. We\u2019re not uplifting them all and going, \u201CYou go fill this job; you do that.\u201D It\u2019s not like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EI think, too, there were some comments about the striking and everything else, but our civilian staff are a key enabler of our military operations, and their work is valued. I\u2019m not going to say to the Chief of Defence Force, \u201CYou point out exactly where that person\u2019s work\u2019s adding to operations.\u201D They\u2019re all adding to operations in many ways. The Government is committed to defence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m really pleased to hear the Green Party of Aotearoa is so supportive of our defence housing. I want to see them supporting us in the Budget bids that we make. I want to see them supporting the fact that we have a $957 million uplift in operational spending over the four years as part of Budget 2025. I\u2019m so pleased they care about the standards and the work and the living conditions of our Defence Force, because I want to see them put their money where their mouth is. I want to see them coming out and saying, \u201CThank you. Thank you, Government for supporting our Defence Force.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3bce67342c8408ba63df3d47181513d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3bce67342c8408ba63df3d47181513d\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I really appreciate the Minister\u2019s response to our questions and Amendment Papers. I also have a number of tabled amendments that I would like to seek the Minister\u2019s support on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI think we\u2019ll start with my first tabled amendment, which was time-stamped at 9.00.03. This is to deal with what the Minister said before, and I think this is really timely, because the Minister just said, \u201CLook, I\u2019m not the Minister responsible. That is on the advice of the Chief of Defence Force.\u201D This is an amendment that is replicating what we\u2019re currently seeing in section 9(4) of the Defence Act, which states that the Minister, on information supplied by the Chief of Defence Force or a Vice Chief of the Defence Force, may grant the authority. I think this not only allows there to be some sort of safeguard that proper consultation advice has been given but that there is a paper trail for public transparency in terms of the decisions that the Minister makes. Hopefully, the Minister will consider that, because this sounds to be in line with what the Minister has just stated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EMy second one is around what my colleague Teanau Tuiono has mentioned in terms of \u201Ccore defence outputs\u201D, and this is in new section 9A(2)(a)(ii). Now, \u201Ccore defence outputs\u201D is not a defined term within the legislation, including the primary legislation, and I think \u201Ccore\u201D, it can be argued, is up to interpretation. I wondered if the Minister would consider an alternative word or even just defining what \u201Ccore\u201D would mean and some examples of that. But my alternative that I\u2019m suggesting is rather than \u201Ccore defence outputs\u201D, we look at \u201Cessential defence outputs\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EMoving on to my next amendment, which concerns new section 9A(2)(b): now, this is an interesting one, because the Minister and various members during the committee stage have consistently used the term \u201Chealth and safety\u201D, but in the legislation it is not \u201Chealth and safety\u201D or \u201Csafety and health\u201D; it\u2019s \u201Csafety or health\u201D, as two mutually exclusive elements. I don\u2019t know if this is a drafting error or there is a reason why those two things have now become mutually exclusive, when every instance that the Minister has referred to it, it has been \u201Chealth and safety\u201D. My proposal and my amendment is looking at what is stated in new section 9A(2)(b)(ii), which states \u201Cability or readiness (or both)\u201D. My amendment is to actually replicate the same thing\u2014to say that \u201Cfor reasons of safety or health (or both)\u201D; or, alternatively, the Amendment Paper by my colleague Teanau Tuiono, which is just a simple adjustment of the conjunction from \u201Cor\u201D to \u201Cand\u201D, which then is also consistent with the wording in the Health and Safety at Work Act 2015.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ENow, moving along to new section 9A(3)(b), which is around \u201CAn authority under this section must be in writing\u201D, and must specify the period for which the authority applies. Noting that new section 9A is a separate section from section 9\u2014from the previous section\u2014there is no specific and defined date that is being given here. I think having a specified date is important, so I want to check with the Minister if she would consider to add a new subsection (3)(b)(i), which is \u201Cany period under subsection (3)(b) must not be longer than 14 days\u201D\u2014this is consistent with the existing drafting of section 9(8) of the Defence Act, which mentions subsections (2) and (4)\u2014or if the Minister would like to extend that or clarify that it\u2019s still the same as the previous amendment, which is no longer than 30 days, which is also a reasonable clarification. But at this stage, the period for which the authority applies has no defined boundary. This will be the same in terms of clause 5 of the bill, new section 9A(8). It\u2019s also my amendment, which was time-stamped at 9.00.07, which is also including that particular time frame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThe last thing I want to mention is in new subsection (6), when it says that the Minister must inform the House of Representatives immediately if the House is sitting. There is an anomaly in terms of the previous clause, as well\u2014I\u2019ll be very quick, Mr Chair\u2014in that the authority lapses\u2014Mr Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240de12f7def844c58bb655260f78dbc6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2014I see you\u2019ve got one more amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee161a535d194fb2aa903c951e641bbb\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: One more. Just to clarify that, in terms of this, when the House is sitting, we normally assume that\u2019s at the beginning of the House, but any of the authority that has been granted in this section, for example, and also in the previous section lapses until the next sitting of the House. But a motion that\u2019s been raised by the Minister to provide a reason under new subsection (6) would not happen at the beginning of the sitting of the House, but, in fact, it would take, at the very earliest, after question time. What, then, we\u2019ll see is a weird gap in which the authority has lapsed and the renewal for the new authority by a motion that\u2019s been raised by the Minister has not been triggered. I want the Minister to clarify that, as well, in terms of the sitting of the House and what happens when that authority lapses for that brief moment of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc18fca1517544d48a85a448eabd4308\u0022 data-id=\u00225f915e1c8c4649d783a60d0d8421b144\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc18fca1517544d48a85a448eabd4308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f915e1c8c4649d783a60d0d8421b144\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022 data-id=\u00220993e9ba5e9f4047987877d681a96ede\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220993e9ba5e9f4047987877d681a96ede\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just have one further question for the Minister, and it\u2019s in relation to, really, the key point of what this bill is trying to do. It gets to that section 9A\u2014the ability to use military personnel to conduct the work of New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) civilian staff in the event of industrial action if it\u2019s constrained in situations where there is a risk to health and safety. We know from the past that the constraints of section 9 were acutely felt, particularly at the end of 2024, when civilian staff undertook industrial action in support of bargaining for their new collective agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is in relation to some of the risks that have been highlighted in the regulatory impact statement. There\u2019s a direct risk that has been highlighted that this will impact on the bargaining power of civilian staff to some extent. I\u2019m interested to understand\u2014I know that there wasn\u2019t consultation with unions. The select committee process and some discrete consultation was undertaken, but it would be really good to know what her analysis is of the impact of this legislation on the bargaining power of civilian staff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003ESecondly, I\u2019m interested to know what this may mean for NZDF activities that cannot take place where the role of striking civilian staff is central to core defence outputs but there is no link to national security or health and safety. I think that\u2019s an important point that we need to understand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EThe final question I have in relation to this part of the bill is about the removal of the requirement to seek House approval to extend an authorisation. Is that, in the Minister\u2019s view, compromising an important check on ministerial power in any way? I know that there are good procedural reasons to counter what we saw happen in 2024\u2014those have been highlighted\u2014but, really, I\u2019m interested to know from the Minister if that removal of the requirement to seek House approval to extend that authorisation is perceived at all as a removal of a check and balance on ministerial power when we\u2019re talking about industrial relations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc9ce01428b144ea9ef08e634b59c2eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc9ce01428b144ea9ef08e634b59c2eb\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. There were a few questions in there. There\u2019s some concern that unions are not being consulted and stuff. Well, actually, industrial action is itself actioned by the union, so I understand there are always negotiations around that. In fact, the committee might be interested to know that the head of the Public Service Association has a meeting with me tomorrow, so no doubt we will discuss all sorts of issues and I will no doubt answer those queries in my usual way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EThere was a question about why it says \u201Csafety or health\u201D in the legislation. It\u2019s because that actually mirrors section 97 of the Employment Relations Act. I think the member is taking the fact that I often talk about health and safety as it\u2019s my area and I naturally go into that, and I\u2019m probably the only person in the House with a graduate diploma in occupational health and safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237066459817345a49a5f53879e320478\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: We have talked about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022035c2764d3f74557b314e5fc8ebd9c55\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: We have talked about that, haven\u2019t we? So I do tend to think in terms of health and safety, and it\u2019s not to skite, actually; it\u2019s not all about me. But it is important, I think, to have consistency across the legislation. And so that\u2019s why it\u2019s \u201Chealth or safety\u201D, or \u201Csafety or health\u201D, as it is in the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EWhy not have a time limit? Well, the Minister must set a period of time for which the authority applies. It\u2019s all part of what the Minister has to do, but it can only apply during industrial action and when the criteria are met. The fact is that industrial action itself, the end of it, provides a de facto time limit anyway. So once the industrial action is finished or the other requirement has finished, then the authority lapses. There was a question around why the bill does not define core defence outputs. Is the criteria too broad\u2014that was the general question. The full version of this criteria is \u201Cthe ability and/or readiness of the Armed Forces to perform specific operational activities that are integral to core defence outputs;\u201D and it is worded intentionally so that a number of elements must be demonstrated before this criteria can apply. This is still a high threshold which would require robust justification to satisfy it. This could include activities essential to maintaining armed forces\u2019 ability and readiness for deployment or operations, such as responding to expected or unexpected events in New Zealand or overseas requiring military capacity tasks under security treaties or UN agreements, or emergency management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EDoes the bill denigrate workers\u2019 rights? That\u2019s pretty much a question coming through. Well, the right to take industrial action remains. It\u2019s the joy of being a democracy. You don\u2019t see too many communist countries where that happens\u2014just saying; it does not work that way. For those people who yearn for the communist utopia for workers\u2019 rights, understand there is no right to strike without tanks coming at you. So understand that it\u2019s only in democracies, and as a Government absolutely committed to democracy, let me tell you it is a core foundation of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EThis bill ensures that the security of New Zealanders and safety of New Zealanders endures should civilian staff exercise these rights. There are always consequences, and those consequences may be a loss of pay. It may be that someone else is doing the job, but the main thing is that the Chief of Defence Force (CDF) has to be able to deal with emergency and other situations that may arise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EIndustrial action will still have a considerable impact on New Zealand Defence Force operations under these changes, and it\u2019s because the work that would otherwise be performed by military personnel is less likely to be delivered whilst they cover for their colleagues, and the resources of the NZDF will be stretched to fill both military and civilian duties. It is not an ability for the CDF and for the Minister that they take lightly. I can tell you it is a very difficult decision to make and is only taken in situations where it really must occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff775135e61c4e95af2c92c58bf12a52\u0022 data-id=\u002218c43fa9ab054de69854715de170c656\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff775135e61c4e95af2c92c58bf12a52\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218c43fa9ab054de69854715de170c656\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (Whip\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fea29321220d424d914dbd2ec7e20553\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022335184e55f72499aa34942c41c09a536\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022335184e55f72499aa34942c41c09a536\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Teanau Tuiono\u2019s amendment to clause 5, new section 9A(1), set out on Amendment Paper 442 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002222a5a4eebf16444badb394993acbbb6e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00227fef28026f7e4c569b6fb56bcd2a2301\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227fef28026f7e4c569b6fb56bcd2a2301\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, new section 9A, amending subsection (2) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002291da7ca1951a45f4ab6e00866d802e10\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u002266cb4e32632b4a7e9527a3d90e2b9971\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266cb4e32632b4a7e9527a3d90e2b9971\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Teanau Tuiono\u2019s amendment to clause 5, new section 9A(2), set out on Amendment Paper 441 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222c50046894114125b1f7e035769d1483\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7f6a26fa2be4a528e17ebdd16dc572f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7f6a26fa2be4a528e17ebdd16dc572f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Vanushi Walters\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5 amending paragraph (a) of section 9A(2) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222313f774f0b747a690033c9ab62f00ca\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00223a9b598d65664788b4ae54b79e3be796\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a9b598d65664788b4ae54b79e3be796\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Vanushi Walters\u2019 other tabled amendment to clause 5 amending paragraph (a) of section 9A(2) is out of order as being a duplicate of a previous amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EThe question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, new section 9A(2), amending subparagraph (ii) of new paragraph (a) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229a4773c53ddd44f19e4ee77d97b063fc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022e524123596b9478093463e241a4abac9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e524123596b9478093463e241a4abac9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Vanushi Walters\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5 amending paragraph (b) of section 9A(2) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a766b1f1e5b74438927d40046a2a471a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u002270caa3ef43e244388b25225574d1d714\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270caa3ef43e244388b25225574d1d714\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5 amending paragraph (b) of section 9A(2) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a0a7ccec889e40119866cb5ec1ebb9b2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022622affe1d2124390b1478926b4dcb4ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022622affe1d2124390b1478926b4dcb4ff\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Vanushi Walters\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5 inserting a new paragraph (c) into section 9A(2) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002248b0571bd117406d8c9484716aceef27\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022577b1ba6cfe24174b28d22b3e6c2ac75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022577b1ba6cfe24174b28d22b3e6c2ac75\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Vanushi Walters\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5 inserting paragraph (c) into section 9A(3) to require an authority under the section to specify capacity and capability risks be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225360a32fe9c7433faf4793467eb4a41f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00226ee7ae03ec4f496392ed854147e90cdd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ee7ae03ec4f496392ed854147e90cdd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Vanushi Walters\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5 inserting paragraph (c) into section 9A(3) to require an authority under the section to specify alternative arrangements be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222189a5fbe12e4bc0a166400d492eb888\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00228b2e2c9712c24307b114f2a2ebd1ac8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b2e2c9712c24307b114f2a2ebd1ac8c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Vanushi Walters\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5 inserting paragraph (c) into section 9A(3) to require an authority under the section to specify whether it may be subject to an automatic extension be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226983522604854141a0fe9c88f0d4781a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00227c27e5c9adea4a65bcec967beef21aad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c27e5c9adea4a65bcec967beef21aad\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Peeni Henare\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5 inserting new subsection (3A) into section 9A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d170f621404e44ebb075354a7e2132a9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u002287af97632bcf4b62a02715e779e8e36d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287af97632bcf4b62a02715e779e8e36d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5 inserting new subsection (3A) into section 9A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002275b8651703dd4f959e402bfbe10c7efd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u002269fec3fc0f534af89094d7551343b515\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269fec3fc0f534af89094d7551343b515\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Vanushi Walters\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5 inserting the words \u201Cwith urgency\u201D into section 9A(5) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002212d89b379c3a4dbcb5c8bf3a366085d6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00223c28c4e0b1384103b26e151811836a2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c28c4e0b1384103b26e151811836a2a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Vanushi Walters\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5 inserting the words \u201Cand the reason for giving it\u201D into section 9A(5) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002262148093b8564455b88b7656eec30388\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d20fe6a2c11a4e8f8fd02f87c848fc90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d20fe6a2c11a4e8f8fd02f87c848fc90\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Vanushi Walters\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5 inserting the words \u201Cwhether there is likely to be an automatic extension of the authority\u201D into section 9A(5) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224fe5e1e870a6452ba2568fc285ba3f0a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00222a9db809a1ab4cd19be51f0c267c7206\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a9db809a1ab4cd19be51f0c267c7206\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Vanushi Walters\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5 inserting the words \u201Cand whether there is likely to be an automatic extension of the authority\u201D into section 9A(6) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022937f05b60acf4a04a33302b15bb58acd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u002283f85a0c409e4438872eadfd5eaab3f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283f85a0c409e4438872eadfd5eaab3f3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Vanushi Walters\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5 inserting the words \u201Cwhether other options were considered instead of granting an authorisation\u201D into section 9A(6) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fd7d93a757394fa498a4d71b05879750\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022448c7ae988e641c9b8d486a9c7c21f91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022448c7ae988e641c9b8d486a9c7c21f91\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5 amending subsection (8) of section 9A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222a184f76b04b4690a720fa76f86154a0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u002296aaf371c2004bb7873b4c8e05060bdd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296aaf371c2004bb7873b4c8e05060bdd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Peeni Henare\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5 inserting new subsection (8A) into section 9A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225bd22b27928c4458aa32588b21acb308\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002234dfd9403cec49faadd9dc3e2b498f5e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 5 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 5 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000190\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000191\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7fa41f6d13d464fbb1587619e4a6eeb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7fa41f6d13d464fbb1587619e4a6eeb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Defence (Workforce) Amendment Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, That the report be adopted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022817a4610976041ec99a16af2c87530ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022817a4610976041ec99a16af2c87530ab\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c2cc2eb9fe70407d814853479b229605\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3e89da0618c454abc167ab48f02b3b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3e89da0618c454abc167ab48f02b3b0\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I move, That the Defence (Workforce) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EThis bill is about balancing the right of New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) civilian staff to take industrial action with New Zealand\u2019s national security and defence needs. I would like, once again, to acknowledge the members of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee who considered this bill and the principles that underpin it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EThe core role of the NZDF is to protect New Zealand and advance New Zealand\u2019s interests through military operations at sea, on land, and in the air. The security of New Zealand is a 24/7 issue, 365 days of the year. Our Defence Force consists of hard-working men and women who are sailors, soldiers, and aviators\u2014collectively, the armed forces and their civilian colleagues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EThe NZDF civilian staff are entitled to take industrial action. This is a fundamental right of employees, recognised in law. The civilian staff in our Defence Force play a significant role in keeping New Zealand safe, whether through providing security at military bases, testing of NZDF capabilities and technology, aircraft maintenance, and countless other important tasks. This means there will be times when industrial action could put New Zealand\u2019s national security at risk or impact the NZDF\u2019s ability to deliver the tasks expected of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EThis bill seeks to ensure the Defence Act 1990 is fit for purpose. This bill ensures that when it is justified to do so, the Minister can authorise the armed forces to conduct the work of striking civilian staff, and it streamlines the process for doing so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003ERather than authorisation lasting for 14 days, the Minister of Defence will be able to say how long an authorisation will last. This removes the requirement to have a parliamentary debate about whether the NZDF can deploy people within their own organisation for longer than 14 days. Parliament will be notified of such an authorisation and the reasons for giving it, and any member of Parliament can bring it to the attention of the House for further scrutiny. Likewise, the Minister will continue to be able to authorise military personnel to conduct the work of striking Public Service employees where not doing so could lead to health and safety risk, which they already can do under current legislation. Parliament\u2019s role in approving an extension beyond that period will be maintained, and the House will not need to be recalled if an authorisation expires when the House is not sitting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003EThese changes strike a balance between ensuring industrial action can still go ahead and have its intended effect, while ensuring that critical activities can continue, that both health and safety are protected, and that national security is not put at risk. The passing of this bill is a further demonstration of this Government\u2019s commitment to ensuring New Zealand continues to have a defence force which is ready and able to protect and defend New Zealanders, New Zealand, and its interests. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022dcfa6b3b816f4a1f88d09244076ded7d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dcfa6b3b816f4a1f88d09244076ded7d\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022 data-id=\u00224ebe976de8c54102a2ad2003fe6a57b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ebe976de8c54102a2ad2003fe6a57b6\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to speak in the third and final reading of this particular bill. As we\u2019ve done in other parts of this bill, I do want to acknowledge the New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) personnel, both those who serve in uniform and the civilian staff, who I know contribute to the wellbeing of this country and contribute to the ongoing effectiveness of the New Zealand Defence Force, and it\u2019s with them in mind for both sides of this House that this bill has been well debated. While we might not agree that we\u2019ve managed to get any of the amendments, certainly from this side of the House, across the line, it is important that when we look towards the operation and the functionality of the NZDF, we acknowledge both those parts, because this particular bill pertains particularly to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister spoke about getting the balance right, and I think that is always an important thing, and we hoped that some of our amendments would strike that balance, get a bit of a middle ground, where we could continue to support both of them: those civilian staff who wish to take work action\u2014strike or whatever it might be\u2014and those NZDF personnel who continue to serve and could be utilised to backfill those roles. We will continue to oppose this bill for the reasons that we have spelt out through the first and second reading and, of course, the committee of the whole House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EWe know that when you leave grey areas, regardless of the bill, or regardless of the legislation, that\u2019s where people are unsure about what\u2019s happening. We wanted to make sure that it was clear that we can continue to protect the national interest, continue to protect the health and safety of this country while also allowing work action to be taken by those staff and workers right across the country. So we don\u2019t back down from the stance that the Labour Party has taken on this particular bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EThe other matter we want to make very clear to the House during the third reading of this particular bill is that when this Government came into power, the first Budget, the finance Minister made it very clear that there were cuts to be made across the public sector, and that included the Defence Force and, in particular, the civilian roles. Multiple times, the Minister and this Government were asked whether or not those cuts would impact on these civilian roles or, more importantly, impact on the ability for the NZDF to do their work\u2014the important work\u2014and we were told no, it wouldn\u2019t. Yet we are changing the legislation\u2014the Defence Act\u2014to have a plan B or a \u201Cjust in case\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EWhen we asked the Government these questions, we were told that no, it wouldn\u2019t impact. Well, it\u2019s clear, then, from the debate that\u2019s taken place during the passage of this bill, that it indeed does have an impact on the opportunity for the NZDF to be deployable, to be ready to serve in times of crisis or emergency. It\u2019s clear, then, that this particular bill is to cater or to cover a plan B, to make sure, at least in the eyes of this Government, that their readiness and deployability is at the forefront.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EWe always stand, as the Labour Party, on the side of the workers, and we make no apology for standing alongside the civilian staff and, indeed, the public sector. The instances that have been raised in this House during the debate are ones that sound reasonable. When we say that the NZDF can cover for public sector roles where it\u2019s relevant and where it\u2019s necessary, the one that\u2019s always offered is Corrections. It makes sense to, I think, every New Zealander, when we say, \u201COK, for Corrections, because they\u2019re doing an important job in securing our prison facilities right around the country.\u201D However, when we try to approach this Government to make sure that we can be far more specific about what roles it can cover, or whose role it can cover, sadly, I didn\u2019t think there was an open engagement with the Government on being far more specific.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003ENow, that begs the question: does it mean that when health staff go on strike or teachers go on strike or other parts of our public sector workforce go on strike, the NZDF could be deployed? I think, like I said, the New Zealand public are quite reasonable to think, \u201COK, Corrections; Police, maybe even; that makes sense to us.\u201D But where it\u2019s an important role in the health sector or in our classrooms with our teachers, I\u2019m sure the New Zealand public would have some questions about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EI thought there were also some really good amendments or suggestions put forward to the Minister that look towards some of those other fail-safe mechanisms around the ability to extend. We talked about the Commander-in-Chief or the Governor-General, and the role that they play in making sure that that can take place. We acknowledge, though, that if they come back to the House here, the House will be notified by the Minister. We asked also if that notification could have far more detail in it so that it could be discussed and debated in the House. Sadly, that didn\u2019t get across the line, but we acknowledge that the democratic processes of this country are important, and when these important matters are raised, we always push that it should come back to the House for consideration\u2014not something that continues to put power in the hands of the few. That\u2019s something that we will always stand up against and make sure that the democracy that our country believes in continues to be practised here in Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EOne of the important things that the Minister mentioned in her third reading speech was about making sure that the Defence Act is fit for purpose. I think that should be something that we should always look at. Something that the Minister said during the committee of the whole House sort of raised the eyebrows of a number across the House, and that was that when the Defence Act was written, in 1990, it was written in times of peace. Now we\u2019re making an amendment 25 years later because it\u2019s important. Well, there were a heck of a lot of conflicts between 1990 and 2025, which I think serves up an opportunity for this House to look at the Defence Act as a whole. I mentioned it in one of my earlier contributions. It\u2019s that beach batch or that holiday home in Coromandel, where you put a lean-to on the lean-to and before you know it, you\u2019ve got a wet carpet, and the house is leaking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EThe Defence Act is an important Act, and the Minister highlighted that, and I totally agree with her and support her on that matter. Therefore, the Defence Act should be relevant, it should be agile and, more importantly, it should be fit for the purpose of today\u2019s Defence Force and the needs that confront our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s been made and highlighted, as points across the House, that national security is at a challenging time geostrategically around the world. We know that there are challenges, and New Zealand certainly isn\u2019t immune to that, so we do need to make sure our NZDF is fit for purpose and the legislation that governs it is also as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EThe other part where I think the Minister made a really good point is that weather events, and right now in the hurricane season, mean that it\u2019s really important for us to remain ready to deploy, ready to operationalise, to support not just New Zealanders. We\u2019ve seen over the past few weeks the devastating floods in the south, the devastating fire in Tongariro, and we know that the NZDF will play their part in our community, and we need to make sure that they are able to do that. Of course, that extends to our friends and our neighbours and our wh\u0101nau in the Pacific, where, if I recall correctly, even in my time as the defence Minister, the NZDF quite regularly was deployed because of hurricane season or tropical-storm season.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EI think the House and the Minister make really good points there, to make sure that despite the debate on this bill, New Zealanders need reassurance that our NZDF will be there for them. That\u2019s what I want to give to our community that are listening or the community that follow this debate: the NZDF, and, of course, the public, the civilian staff, and the uniformed staff\u2014the reassurance that the NZDF is there to serve our country, and we know they will; the reassurance that despite the challenges, known or unknown, that we might face in the coming weeks or months, the NZDF will be in the best position to be able to support, however the Minister and the Government sees fit. We support that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EWe want to encourage and make sure that our wh\u0101nau out there feel safe and secure because we know, whether it\u2019s in the Pacific or locally, that when a grey ship shows up after an event and it\u2019s got the Kiwi or the Royal New Zealand Navy on the side, that brings assurance, and it brings security to those areas. I reflect back on the volcanic eruption in Tonga. The HMNZS Aotearoa was the first ship to arrive. After having spoken with the Tongan people, they said they couldn\u2019t have asked for a better blessing, and that wasn\u2019t just because it was the first one to arrive. It was because it was Aotearoa who answered the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s really important, despite the debate, and the backward and forward across this House, that our public know our NZDF are always ready to go. They\u2019re highly deployable, highly trained, and will always answer the call when needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca0a25f844ae46a49b9fbf8c1e2c42a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca0a25f844ae46a49b9fbf8c1e2c42a5\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Greens to speak on the Defence (Workforce) Amendment Bill in this third reading. We have just completed the committee of the whole House stage, which was illuminating. The Minister of Defence was very engaging, and, I guess, one of the things with that Minister in particular is that you don\u2019t need to read a crystal ball\u2014they\u2019re pretty straight up whether you like the answers or not. I didn\u2019t like the answers, but at least they were clear, so there is that as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EI will say that the comments around the right to strike didn\u2019t land well with me; I think there was some talking around that right as well. I still see this as limiting the right to strike, and I think that this bill weakens the right to strike by allowing striking civilian staff to be replaced with uniformed personnel. It\u2019s called strikebreaking. It creates lots of pressure on staff, whether they\u2019re uniformed staff or civilian. In the committee of the whole House stage, we did talk about the unique nature of the Defence Force\u2014you have civilian staff, you have uniformed staff, military personnel, and that\u2019s a unique situation. When you sign up for the military or when you sign up for the defence force, you sign up for a hierarchy, and you sign up for a whole lot of issues. You don\u2019t get to strike\u2014you don\u2019t get to do partial strikes, and so on and so forth\u2014and that is the expectation there, but you do have 3,000 civilian workers, and at least 1,000 of those civilian workers are unionised, and it is incredibly important that they have the right to strike. The issues around bringing in uniformed personnel or other parts of that staff to take those roles is also something we should be incredibly careful about as a House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EOne of the illuminating things\u2014I think it was one of the earlier clauses where we were talking about the reasons why this bill is coming to the House in the form that it is\u2014was that there could be an escalation of an industrial dispute because that is one of the only ways that workers can actually engage when they\u2019re not being paid properly. I immediately thought, \u201CWell, is there an exception that can be made in this case, because of the different circumstances with the Defence Force workforce, for partial strikes?\u201D For those who sat in this House when partial strikes legislation was being moved through the House, that was something where if you do partial strikes, you will get your pay docked. Just for people\u2019s clarification: for example, you had teachers who were participating in partial strikes where they just wore T-shirts saying a particular political slogan. You\u2019re not allowed to do that, but, because you\u2019re not allowed to do that, you go straight down the strike avenue as well. I think there is a strong argument there to allow for partial strikes as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EIn another one of my amendments, I did talk about making sure in the legislation that the union is informed\u2014that there is consultation with the union. I think that\u2019s important, and I think that\u2019s important because it provides a way to have that discussion, that negotiation, because the reason we are in here at this particular time is because, in 2024, Public Service Association members in New Zealand Defence Force civilian staff roles were offered a zero pay increase. That\u2019s amazing to me. It\u2019s not even the beginning of a negotiation that people could agree to, right? You show up to the bargaining table and the offer on the table is \u201CHere\u2019s nothing\u201D\u2014here\u2019s nothing. The workers used the tools that were available to them\u2014used the avenues that were available to them\u2014and good on them. They actually won that strike. That is the rules working as they should. The unique situation you have with the Defence Force with uniformed personnel and civilian personnel has to be taken into account, and I don\u2019t think that this bill fully addresses that at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EWe also had a bit of a discussion around the use of urgency. This House has seen a lot of urgency over this parliamentary term\u2014too much, some would say, and I would say as well. There was a bit of a discussion around that, but this particular bill did have a select committee process where we did have submitters coming to the select committee. They presented very strong arguments, I thought\u2014strong arguments that I don\u2019t think were picked up in either the departmental report or in the select committee report. There were issues that were not resolved adequately as well. Although I acknowledge the straight answers that we did get from the Minister, I was not left feeling that submitters who had come to the select committee could feel that those issues had been resolved at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EThis bill only had a couple of stages going through urgency. We had the first reading, it went to select committee, and then it came here; then we had the committee of the whole House, which we\u2019ve just finished, and now this is the third reading\u2014so part of it was under urgency. One of the questions that we did pose to the Minister was: why was this particular part in urgency? We should only really use urgency if we really need to, but, in this case, half of it was and half of it wasn\u2019t. What was the rationale? Is it the proximity to Christmas? Is the Minister aware of any industrial disputes that might be arising? Why was the timing such that we\u2019re rushing this part of the bill through under urgency?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EI think there is an argument that we could actually\u2014by acknowledging the unique circumstances that we have with Defence Force personnel, both uniformed and civilian\u2014find other solutions to help to allow civilian staff to be able to express their rights, and to allow civilian roles to be able to fully use the rights that they have for them. I know that, for myself when I was sitting on the select committee, and for others as well, I was actually quite surprised with how many people there were in civilian roles\u20143,000 is quite a lot. There\u2019s the other question around, well, why are so many of these roles being done by civilians when you would assume, and I did assume before the select committee process, that a lot of them would be done by military personnel\u2014by uniformed personnel? Is it a cust-cotting\u2014cust-cotting\u2014apologies\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223861873d9d214d7792df88f2af680f40\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Cost-cutting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022908fb80eb4da47d39516f2f67d4c27d3\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO\u003C/span\u003E: Cost-cutting\u2014that\u2019s the one! Thank you, Madam Speaker. Is it a cost-cutting measure? If so, just be straight up about it. Is this the reason why you have so many roles? I do take the point\u2014and possibly there could be some agreement on this across the House\u2014that people made around, well, if you\u2019re going to put people into these roles, and I\u2019m particularly thinking about the uniformed side of it, you should pay them properly. You should make sure that their housing stock is up to scratch as well. I\u2019ve talked to enough people to know that although there are plans in place to make sure that housing stock is being replaced, in the case of Wai\u014Duru, as far as I have heard, that has not happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EYes, it\u2019s important to note that this a career pathway that people choose, and I did note that the Minister was talking about the large amount of money that she was able to get through the Budget\u2014but how much of that is actually going into the pockets of the workers? How much of that is being put into the pockets of both uniformed personnel and civilian personnel? We know that, on the civilian side, when they went into that negotiation, they were just offered a zero pay increase. It\u2019s all very well and good to talk about all the money that is coming through the Budget lines, but you\u2019ve got to look after people. You\u2019ve got to make sure that they can put food on the table, keep the lights on, be able to look after their families and look after their kids\u2014that\u2019s incredibly important. You have to ensure that the housing stock is good as well. If you have issues with that, there is no recourse that I know of within the uniformed side of it\u2014the military personnel side of it\u2014where you can actually rectify that and speak up. In some ways, if there are issues around that, you have to rely on those who are within the civilian roles to raise those issues\u2014those incredibly important issues about the impact on workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EThere were a lot of questions that were posed, and there were a lot of straight answers, but a lot of those answers missed the mark. A lot of those answers went around and didn\u2019t address the concerns of those that came to the select committee. There\u2019s an old saying: if you\u2019ve got a hammer, and that\u2019s all you\u2019ve got, everything looks like a nail, and I think this is the situation that we\u2019re finding ourselves in. There was an industrial dispute that happened last year; the Minister wanted to fix that, but she\u2019s only got a hammer, and she\u2019s using it on the nail. The other thing that is really important is that if you really wanted to solve industrial disputes, pay workers properly. Pay workers properly\u2014pay them what they\u2019re worth, make sure that it keeps up with inflation, and make sure that we look after workers. I do not commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229ea8d231f4e948c19f942d51a4ae19bf\u0022 data-id=\u00225af6ac2cb2f54ebcabc630c460dcc869\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ea8d231f4e948c19f942d51a4ae19bf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225af6ac2cb2f54ebcabc630c460dcc869\u0022\u003ELAURA McCLURE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on the third reading of this important piece of legislation. But just to remind those at home, in no shape or form does this reduce the ability for industrial action. I think I said in my second reading speech that it\u2019s awfully disruptive to any industry when there is industrial action. Being able to use and utilise your staff in order for the safety of our Defence Force, our personnel, and, actually, our country\u2019s safety and security\u2014I think that\u2019s a very fair and reasonable bill, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022212cf7474b304d86a379dbfeb693d855\u0022 data-id=\u002233342e5fdd1a474a8134f250e84a6682\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022212cf7474b304d86a379dbfeb693d855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233342e5fdd1a474a8134f250e84a6682\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON (Minister for Rural Communities):\u003C/span\u003E It is an honour for me to rise to confirm New Zealand First\u2019s support for this Defence (Workforce) Amendment Bill. I would also like to acknowledge the incredible work that our Defence Force does, being prepared to put themselves into harm\u2019s way on our behalf. I know that that view is shared across the House\u2014well, at least I think it was; we\u2019ve had some fairly moderate support, would I say, from some of the other parties here, but certainly not from us. In fact, we\u2019ve been very proud in the past, in the 52nd Parliament\u2014I know that the Hon Ron Mark held that portfolio. I know no one would have been prouder to hold the portfolio than Ron, a returned serviceman himself, and someone who I know still keeps a very keen interest in what the Minister of Defence is doing in this this respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022212cf7474b304d86a379dbfeb693d855\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s important to note that this is not only about armed conflict\u2014we know that geopolitics is dangerous around the world and there are heightened tensions at the moment\u2014but it is about emergency management as well. We\u2019ve seen numerous examples lately, where our Defence Force personnel have come to the service of people, New Zealand citizens, here at home. Actually, just a couple of weeks ago down South, with the big winds, we actually had military personnel out, with communications down, going door to door, delivering flyers to farmers to just let them know what was going on with the telecommunications being down. So we really appreciate what they do for us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022212cf7474b304d86a379dbfeb693d855\u0022\u003EThis bill enables the New Zealand Defence Force uniformed personnel to carry out civilian roles in the event of industrial action. The military simply must be able to function, whether it is in an offensive manner or whether it is here at home delivering flyers in the Clutha region. This does not undermine the right to strike. There is absolutely the right for those civilian personnel to strike. It was a ridiculous assertion that was made\u2014in, I think, the committee of the whole House yesterday\u2014where the Hon Phil Twyford said that it somehow equated to the 1951 waterfront strike, and the Government would be using this to bust strike action. I thought that was alarmist and completely irrelevant to what this bill actually does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022212cf7474b304d86a379dbfeb693d855\u0022\u003EThis is a moderate and sensible measure. It enables the military to perform its key functions, and maintains civilian employees having the right to strike. There is a formal process to go through, there are checks and balances, and there is still parliamentary oversight. Minister Collins has done a great job bringing this pragmatic measure forward, and New Zealand First supports it to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022846a8bd84166404daa27aef4f0cb7f92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022846a8bd84166404daa27aef4f0cb7f92\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call\u2014Oriini Kaipara.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022602\u0022 data-id=\u002265bd96c733284cb3bee585227991558a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265bd96c733284cb3bee585227991558a\u0022\u003EORIINI KAIPARA (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014T\u0101maki Makaurau):\u003C/span\u003E E te P\u012Bka, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. On behalf of Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, we oppose this bill in its entirety because it makes it easier for the armed forces to replace civilian defence staff and Public Service workers who are taking lawful strike action. Let\u2019s be clear: soldiers cannot strike, but civilians in the New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) can. This Government now wants to use those soldiers as strikebreakers. The bill gives the Minister of Defence a new and expanded power during industrial action by NZDF civil staff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022602\u0022\u003EThe Minister will be able to authorise the armed forces to do the work of those who are striking whenever the Minister believes there are reasonable grounds where national security, operational readiness, or safety could be affected. That authorisation only has to be in writing; not agreed by Parliament, not independently tested, just signed off by the Minister. The Minister must then notify workers that the military has been sent in to perform their jobs and must notify this House after the fact\u2014not seek approval, not justify it, but simply tell us what they have already done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022602\u0022\u003EFor Public Service workers, the Minister\u2019s power is widened again from 14 to 30 days. If Parliament is adjourned, the authorisation just rolls over automatically. This is a step change that removes the safeguards that recognise how extreme it is to use the military to undermine strike action. It normalises military interference in civilian industrial disputes. The people most affected are the people who keep our country running; the people who have already been denied fair wages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022602\u0022\u003EThe Public Service Association has been absolutely clear. They said this legislation restricts defence workers\u2019 rights and is completely unjustified. Last year, their members were offered zero pay increase. They only achieved something better because they took strike action, the precise right that this bill now seeks to silence. Fleur Fitzsimons has said\u2014[Knocks glass over]\u2014plainly bringing in the military as strikebreakers is \u201Cextremely serious\u201D\u2014sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243a9bea55df2448c98558af2c7c2d823\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s OK. I\u2019ll just get one of the clerks to bring a towel. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d1f4e74e8d94076afd78d6f0fb0f43e\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CTo the left, to the left.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b4eb1e91ef14ae89fafc03b81413fe5\u0022\u003EORIINI KAIPARA\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CTo the left\u201D\u2014that\u2019s right. OK. Fleur Fitzsimons has said plainly bringing in the military as strikebreakers is \u201Cextremely serious\u201D. What used to require a resolution of this House will now require only the stroke of a Minister\u2019s pen. Unions have called it extraordinary and an attempt to undermine New Zealanders who are standing up for better pay and conditions, and they\u2019re right. My colleague Teanau Tuiono\u2019s recommendation for partial strikes must be noted and supported. From a Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori perspective, this bill does not align with our kaupapa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022602\u0022\u003EMana motuhake: we oppose any move that strips away workers\u2019 rights and suppresses collective power. M\u0101ori make up a majority of the NZDF civil staff, as well as the wider Public Service. We are nurses, we are teachers, and we are firefighters. Now, at any time, the armed forces could be deployed to replace us when we strike for fair pay. That is an erosion of rights that will ripple into every workplace here in Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022602\u0022\u003EMana \u014Drite: this bill makes it harder for workers to negotiate improvements, harder to achieve pay equity, harder to challenge unfair systems. Our incomes policy is clear: uphold pay equity and strengthen collective bargaining. This bill does the absolute opposite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022602\u0022\u003EFinally, mana mokopuna: when workers lose their rights, our mokopuna lose security. They lose wh\u0101nau stability. They inherit a society where the power of the State can be used to silence legitimate dissent. That is not the future we fight for, and let\u2019s be honest: if the Government were truly concerned about safety, wellbeing, and national security, they would pay our nurses properly, they would value our firefighters, they would resource our teachers, and they would uplift the New Zealand Defence Force\u2019s own civilian workforce, not undermine them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022602\u0022\u003EInstead, this Government wants to send troops into schools and into hospitals, into our communities, not to help but to break strikes, to weaken workers, to keep wages low. Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori cannot and will not support a bill that erodes rights, undermines collective bargaining, and weaponises the armed forces against civilian workers. We do not commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb6bbed47ccb4e7c90add8a0ad4f6add\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb6bbed47ccb4e7c90add8a0ad4f6add\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Civilian staff are critical to supporting us when disaster strikes, and it\u2019s really important to note that armed personnel depend on civilian staff, even within the New Zealand Defence Force, to keep them well\u2014whether it\u2019s in IT roles, health roles, or administration roles. Actually, the Minister, during the committee of the whole House, acknowledged that those were incredibly complex, highly qualified roles. This includes engineering roles that help the military personnel equipment to adequately function, so I find it really interesting that that every time that we have a bill that erodes workers\u2019 ability to participate in strikes, we have speech after speech from the right-wing politicians thanking those very same workers they are undermining. Their actions actually speak louder than their words. It\u2019s hard to believe their speeches are thanking those very same workers they\u2019re about to undermine when we have a bill in front of us that follows, literally, a 2024 zero pay increase for the Defence Force civilian staffers, which would have seen them take effective pay cuts due to inflationary pressures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EMake no mistake: this bill is a direct result of what we saw last year. What else can you call a bill that seeks to erode the parliamentary checks that are in place to ensure that a Minister is adequately accountable to a decision to replace civilian staff with military personnel and that makes it easier for military personnel to replace civilian staff? During the committee of the whole House, one of the questions that I asked was whether the Minister had sought advice or reassurances or was able to elucidate to the House the advice that she received as to whether military personnel had the adequate skills, qualifications, and experience to actually replace civilian staff. She wasn\u2019t able to actually substantiate this, and all she gave us were just platitudes about the highly qualified military personnel, which no one was necessarily challenging. It was more a matter as to whether those roles would be able to be replaced to the very same competency that the civilian staff are able to perform. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EIf the Minister is not able to tell us that she did receive reassurance and advice on this very same matter, it\u2019s hard for us to have faith in a bill in front of us that seeks to erode civilian staff\u2019s ability to adequately withdraw their labour as a tool of bargaining, which is one of the most powerful things workers can do when they are trying to prove their worth to their employers. By withdrawing your labour, you demonstrate the importance of your work. If the Government is choosing to, instead, deploy the military to fill those very same roles, they are undermining people\u2019s ability to take industrial action, to fight for better wages, and to fight for better pay and conditions and safe staffing levels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EI do not buy, nor believe in, any of the Government\u2019s arguments that this is not about undermining the ability to strike, because even though the Minister says that striking is part of a democracy, well, clearly this Government doesn\u2019t really believe in the right for workers to take part in strikes without those very same actions undermining their ability to make ends meet, because, otherwise, they would have not introduced legislation this term to actually add pay deductions to striking workers. You can\u2019t say that striking is part of our democratic process and then, at the very same time, bill after bill after bill, erode workers\u2019 rights and people\u2019s ability to sustain industrial action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EThe Green Party is clear that independent of our criticisms of this Government\u2019s encroachment and alignment with the US when it comes to the military-industrial complex, the New Zealand Defence Force plays a critical role in supporting us when natural disasters strike. Therefore, we cannot stand by a bill that seeks to erode those very same workers\u2019 ability to perform their duties in a way that is adequately dignified.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EThe members who have talked and thanked the personnel should actually be standing up for those workers\u2019 ability to fight for better pay and conditions, instead of defending zero pay increases, while, at the very same time, they\u2019re handing billions of dollars to landlords, to tobacco industries, to fossil fuel companies\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258dfb4fa816240b998bc4b7fda37469d\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b6b27b96c7247cc89b3ad31dee5bf0a\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014while everyday workers struggle. If the members on my left call out \u201Crubbish\u201D when I say those things, what do they call those billions of dollars going to entities that are ripping our planet and our communities off?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EThe Green Party will fight to improve workers\u2019 conditions and ensure that everyone has a dignified life. Judith Collins may call that a \u201Ccommunist utopia\u201D, but we call that simply socialism, which is, actually, honouring the dignity of everyone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220163f493865845b2aeb9c30858584495\u0022 data-id=\u00225e8499de2a0740b18db43ab78235fcaf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220163f493865845b2aeb9c30858584495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e8499de2a0740b18db43ab78235fcaf\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Storytime is over; we\u2019ll come back to reality here\u2014the simple, practical changes that this bill makes to ensure we can uphold our national security. It\u2019s, frankly, embarrassing that neither of those two previous speeches, and indeed some of those before, from the Opposition benches had not a single mention about upholding national security. All they care about is their union mates being able to strike. That is an absolute disgrace. This bill ensures that we can maintain national security on our bases at a time when, unfortunately, globally, it\u2019s becoming increasingly important. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7a2b159035143bdb05e41a68201e37d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7a2b159035143bdb05e41a68201e37d\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, for an opportunity to take a call on the third reading of this bill just after we\u2019ve had actually quite a robust committee stage. I\u2019ll refer to some of the conversations we had during committee stage in my contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EWe won\u2019t be supporting this bill, but I would like to start by recognising first the important role that our Defence Force plays. I think we have a rich history of a strong, well-resourced defence force. It didn\u2019t always start that way. I\u2019ll make a few historic references in my contribution. The first defence force in New Zealand was actually set up in 1863 under the Colonial Defence Force Act. It was a regular force of only 500 troops, who were all voluntary and expected to serve for a term of three years each, funded to the tune of only \u00A330,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EOf course, since then it\u2019s grown rather substantially, and quite rightly, the Minister and others have pointed to the fact that the Defence Force plays an integral role in terms of national security, but also in terms of peacekeeping and our aid contribution, and also in terms of emergencies. Certainly, on this side of the House, we respect that role and we are grateful for that role. My contributions are all made in the context that I think that is a fundamental part of the role of the State and that it\u2019s important that we have carve-outs for the Defence Force as well, to ensure that they can act where there are threats to our security. We recently had a family member who became a private in the Defence Force, and it gives me a huge sense of pride to see her become a member of our Defence Force as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EIn the context of that deep respect, it really is how I look at this bill, and what I always look for with any legislative change is: what is the problem statement, where is the gap? That\u2019s why I spent a considerable amount of time in the committee stage questioning the Minister on the rationale for the bill. I think what became clear is that it doesn\u2019t appear that there\u2019s a gap in the way it has been described at the stages of the bill coming through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThe way in which I understood the gap initially was that if we had a period where the House is adjourned\u2014adjourned only; not concluded for that term, but just adjourned over the summer break\u2014and you have an authorisation that expires during that period, there is no way for an authorisation to be extended by the House. Now, while that is true\u2014and that became clear through the committee stage\u2014it was also clear that the Minister can make a second authorisation. My line of questioning was really about whether that was the case, and clearly it is the case. There is no gap. The Minister can make a second authorisation. My line of questioning was then around whether there would be administrative delays that would cause detriment to our national security and whether that was the thought process that gave rise to the bill. I\u2019m still a little unclear as to whether that is the case, but I did propose to the Minister that perhaps if it was, one way of rectifying that would be to create a power in the bill that allowed the Minister alone to extend an authorisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EIf we were looking at levels of scrutiny, the first level you would have is for Parliament to authorise it on the expiration of the 14-day period. That\u2019s obviously the best-case scenario; not always going to be able to happen in a long extended period where Parliament isn\u2019t sitting. However, your next best option in terms of scrutiny would be to have the Minister extend the authorisation. Now, the beauty of this is that then there is still a level of scrutiny, and the Minister would be expected to turn her mind to whether the circumstances were still such that an extension should be authorised. I don\u2019t know that the House has quite had an answer as to why that wouldn\u2019t be a suitable thing to do. Just recognising again, as we all have across the House, that the right to protest is in fact important, and so minds must be turned to that when weighing up if the circumstances are appropriate to make an authorisation, and, if so, what that period should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI remain of the view that given the timeline in section 9(4) of the Defence Act has not changed, there\u2019s a recognition that, actually, 14 days is a reasonable period of time for, in that case, the Prime Minister or the next senior Minister to turn their mind to whether it needs to be extended by the House or not. Again, I don\u2019t think that we really travelled sufficiently through the argument why those two provisions are as different as they are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a solution\u2014well, the first thing is there is no current gap, unless there is an administrative difficulty for the Minister over that summer, and I think the House needs to be clear about that. And, in the second part, if there is an administrative difficulty, there is a fix to that, which would still overlay that ministerial oversight. I think, unfortunately, we haven\u2019t explored, in truth, the proposed amendments, which I think would have gone some way to improving the bill\u2014and broadening the powers, actually\u2014because right now, the Minister doesn\u2019t have the power to extend on her own; it\u2019s only the House who can do that. However, it would just be the next layer of broadening that we would be doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EA number of submitters at select committee\u2014I wasn\u2019t on the select committee dealing with this bill\u2014pointed to the issues that have been spoken to across the House. Again, I think it would have been prudent to consider some of the changes that we suggested in this bill, but unfortunately that was not done. Again, I go back to the issue of I guess what I\u2019d almost call a bleed into treating urgency as just a way of churning or getting legislation through the pipeline as opposed to genuinely considering whether the reason is urgent or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EAs I\u2019ve said earlier, in my view, there is no urgency tied to the summer break period, given the Minister could issue a second authorisation. That argument simply isn\u2019t there. I wonder, as we continue going through this week of urgency in the House, whether it\u2019s an obligation on us all to consider whether the Standing Orders are sufficient in their requirements for moving the House into urgency. Currently, the requirement is that a reason be provided by the Government, but, again, what we\u2019re starting to see\u2014and I\u2019ll acknowledge here that this has been something that\u2019s come up regardless of which party is leading Government\u2014is a reason be given as opposed to a genuine reason that ties itself to why we\u2019re skipping through certain stages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EAttached to that is my concern that if the select committee stage is fulfilled\u2014if a bill is sent to select committee at all\u2014that\u2019s now deemed to be sufficient in terms of engaging the democratic process. I don\u2019t believe it is. I think, again, we\u2019re seeing a bleed to shortened select committees. It certainly hasn\u2019t gone unnoticed by me that there seems to be an increasing use of the four-month-and-one-day behaviour, where bills are referred to select committee for just over the period where, if they were under four months, there would need to be a debate in the House. Then, of course, it\u2019s the select committee who decides what period of time submissions are called for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003ENow, this presents the problem that if you layer one atop the other\u2014the shortening of those periods\u2014you would have a public who doesn\u2019t feel consulted. You would have members who are viewing amendments sometimes at the last minute, and you\u2019d have Ministers who aren\u2019t truly considering Amendment Papers as they should in the committee stage. I mean, this is probably not the worst example of it, but it\u2019s certainly an example where there were some sensible amendments which I had hoped would be considered but haven\u2019t been. Thus, sadly, I cannot commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eac32f149d894fa0ac22ecceb7393316\u0022 data-id=\u00220b73d649f911413d922f4746e6837307\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eac32f149d894fa0ac22ecceb7393316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b73d649f911413d922f4746e6837307\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E This bill is not about helping the Government. It\u2019s not about helping the National Party or Minister Judith Collins. This is about helping our Defence Force, supporting our Defence Force, from the newest recruit to the Chief of Defence Force. It is telling to see the Labour Party and the Green Party come out firmly opposing that support\u2014not only that they won\u2019t debate the issue that exists but they spread these mistruths. We hear about the 1951 wharf strike, and this could be used to break it. The Green Party tell us, \u201COh, it could be used for forestry workers.\u201D No, it can\u2019t. This is only an internal thing for the Defence Force. It shows the lack of knowledge, it shows the lack of respect on that side of the House for our Defence Force, and it shows the lack of support. The National Party supports our Defence Force. National supports every single service person, and we support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022581a346deba3409fa143c626fa8ba125\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022581a346deba3409fa143c626fa8ba125\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call. I call Helen White.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022 data-id=\u00226836e2aec29748738772160858db59c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226836e2aec29748738772160858db59c0\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. It\u2019s a split call, and that gives me five minutes to tell you why I don\u2019t think that it is fair for the member of the Government who just stood up to talk about this as an ill-informed Opposition. This Opposition has done its level best, in urgency, to take this matter seriously. That has been very evident in the questions that have been put. My friend on the other side of the House has just raised the thorny issue of the 1951 strike. It clearly hit home when the Hon Phil Twyford talked about that. It\u2019s an absolutely relevant thing to talk about if you\u2019re from the Labour Party, because those times were definitely very, very formative for this party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EI want to talk first of all just about the value of strikes. There\u2019s a little bit that may have been said by other speakers, but I want to reinforce it. When the Labour Party and the Green Party talk about this as having an impact on striking and being a strikebreaking tool, that\u2019s because if a military worker takes the position of a striking civilian worker, they undermine the power of a strike. We set about a striking mechanism in a structure. You can\u2019t strike for any reason in New Zealand, and you can\u2019t strike at any time in New Zealand. You can only strike when the legislature says that\u2019s a legitimate tool in the tool box, and you have to give good notice, and there are essential industries in this country where there is a lot of notice required because they are essential to the population. It is a managed ability that people have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EWhat this piece of law does is it says that people can be ordered or forced, because they are military, to go into those positions and do those jobs in a time of strike. That actually does undermine the industrial rights of that group of people. That\u2019s a big deal, and it isn\u2019t that the Labour Government hasn\u2019t seen a balancing act here, because this is our military and this is an important part of the mechanisms that keep the country safe. That has been an important thing. It\u2019s only an amendment to a law. There was already a checks and balances system in place, and part of that checks and balances system was coming back to this legislature if we extended the period that the military were going to do that. People had to come back to this legislature. They no longer need to do that in the same way. That\u2019s an erosion. That\u2019s a lack of balance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EWhat my friend the Hon Phil Twyford talked about, that seems to have really got up the noses of some of the Government members, is that, right now, we are in a world where we have seen military forces on the streets in the US. We have seen that happen. I never thought I would see that. I never thought I would see that kind of intervention. We\u2019re in a time of great change, and so it\u2019s very important we hold and respect our organised rules for things like striking and for things like the use of our military. We respect those young people who come into the military. I talked about it in the committee stage. My volunteers who come in are full of wonderful ideas and ambitions, and they join the military, and they don\u2019t expect to be told that they must go over and do the work of a plumber, because that happens to suit the Government of the day. That is not what they signed up for. That is not why I value them. I value them, and I respect them, and I respect the fact that they are human beings doing great work and being brave. There is a balance to be struck. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc18fca1517544d48a85a448eabd4308\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6b2cb6b6c8148b58436634905687d0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc18fca1517544d48a85a448eabd4308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6b2cb6b6c8148b58436634905687d0f\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E It really fills me with sadness hearing some of the comments from the other side of the House. I haven\u2019t had the pleasure of being on the select committee that dealt with this bill, but, from the basic reading, I can see and hear that what\u2019s being said on the other side does not reflect what we\u2019re doing here. As the Hon Judith Collins just said, the arguments against are showing actually how much the other side cares about our Defence Force\u2014or, rather, doesn\u2019t care for our Defence Force. This law, essentially, keeps New Zealand safe around the clock while still respecting the right of civilian staff to strike. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022 data-id=\u00222c1b8873b0dc40b0ab660dd820b95fab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c1b8873b0dc40b0ab660dd820b95fab\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I often go to the regulatory impact statement for the truth because that\u2019s one area where it\u2019s harder for the Government to spin things. The regulatory impact statement makes it incredibly clear what we\u2019re doing today. It says in it that back at the end of 2024, when civilian staff undertook industrial action in support of bargaining for a new collective agreement, that caused problems. That was when they got a zero percent pay rise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EThe member Rima Nakhle, who has just resumed her seat, talked about the fact that they care about the Defence Force. My question would be: why, then, did this Government offer them a zero percent increase in pay? Then when they took industrial action, they\u2019ve introduced this legislation as a direct response to prevent those civilians from being able to take collective action such as strikes in the future. Essentially, what this does is use military personnel to conduct the work of New Zealand Defence Force civilian staff in the event of industrial action. That is incredibly short-sighted because if we are seriously talking about our defence workforce, about the wellbeing of New Zealand, about how we grow our defence service to be capable and able to respond, this is a short-term stopgap measure to simply prevent situations that occurred at the end of 2024 when civilian staff took industrial action because they got a zero percent pay increase. That\u2019s the nub of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s important to note that this bill is No. 8. There are more, but this is the eighth thing, in general, that this Government has done to undermine the rights of working New Zealanders, and so I think it\u2019s important that we put it in the context of all of the things they have done since being in Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EThe first one was to repeal fair pay agreements\u2014that was done right away. They\u2019ve brought back 90-day trials, removed the 30-day rule, removed the ability to give workers access to the collective agreement when they first start work\u2014that\u2019s been taken away. Pay deductions for partial strikes\u2014we\u2019ve discussed and debated that one in the House. The ability to partially strike has been removed by this Government. You\u2019ll have your pay eaten into by your employer if you determine you\u2019d like to partially strike. The next one is that if you earn over $180,000, you cannot take a personal grievance against your employer\u2014huge undermining of rights in that one\u2014and the public sector funding cuts right across not just Wellington\u2019s local economy, which is completely downwardly spiralling as a result of those cuts, and right across the country we\u2019ve seen workers who can\u2019t afford to feed their families and pay their bills as a result of that. And, of course, we have the scrapping of 33 pay equity claims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EThis bill is hot off the heels of those changes that this Government has made, and I do not take to heart and believe this Government when it says that it has the Defence Force\u2019s interests at heart. We do not accept that at all, because this comes in the context of an ongoing undermining of workers\u2019 rights in New Zealand. This bill is an answer to a question that nobody in Defence is asking. Nobody is asking that question. At a time when the New Zealand Defence Force is facing staffing shortages as well, this House should be focused on real solutions of how we build our workforce, not political theatre masquerading as reform. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EDoes this actually solve any of the real problems that the Defence Force is currently facing? Does it strengthen our country? Does this improve the lives of New Zealanders in the Defence Force who are struggling to pay their bills without having a decent wage? This bill fails on all of those tests. The defence workforce is not struggling because of a lack of rules or powers or structural levers. It is struggling because people can\u2019t afford to stay, and so are only coming when unemployment is peaking to such a level that we might see a slight uptick. They are struggling because pay has not kept up with inflation. That is the problem, not the fact that we\u2019re going to suddenly install uniformed people to take the roles of civilians to prevent them for striking for decent pay. Military families cannot secure housing near their bases because specialist roles are leaving faster than they can be replaced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EThis bill does not take any steps towards addressing those problems\u2014problems such as burnout from long hours, repeated deployments, and persistent vacancies, and the hollowing out of morale of the defence service. This bill actually takes steps to increase or further erode the morale by having uniformed or civilian Defence Force personnel potentially having issues if they\u2019re stepping into those roles. This bill deals with none of the pressures that have led to it. Instead, this Government has brought forward legislation that tinkers with obligations, expands bureaucratic oversight, and creates compliance costs that are absolutely unnecessary. It\u2019s a complete disconnect with the workforce issues that we are seeing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EOne of the deepest concerns that has been raised is that the Defence Force should be supported in a way where we have a long-term plan to build our workforce. This bill does not do that. One of the most alarming aspects of this legislation is the lack of evidence that underpins it. The Government has repeatedly asserted that the bill will strengthen the workforce but when we\u2019ve looked for data, when we\u2019ve looked through the submissions and we\u2019ve looked at that, there\u2019s absolutely no evidence that the proposed interventions resolve any of the issues that were heard at select committee, and there\u2019s no evidence that this will actually make a real difference to the problems we\u2019re seeing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EGood lawmaking requires evidence, and this bill offers a bunch of slogans instead. It is not really assisting in any way. We would like to see meaningful change that raises the wages of those people and enables their ability to take collective action and to have decent working conditions. By simply taking this and doing this, it fails to modernise the workforce or address future challenges. New Zealand\u2019s Defence Force deserves to have that oversight and that foresight and a future planning model in place, and this bill is incredibly short-sighted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EI would like to conclude by saying that it\u2019s all well and good to talk about what a great service the Defence Force provides. We hear, \u201CAren\u2019t they amazing and don\u2019t they do a great job?\u201D\u2014yes, they are, and they deserve better than this. They deserve better than having this kind of tinkering at the margins that doesn\u2019t go to the heart of addressing the fact that they deserve to be paid better. They deserve to have oversight and a plan in place that supports that. They deserve to have support for their families. They deserve to have improved housing and cost of living conditions taken into account. They deserve to have expanded mental health and wellbeing services. They deserve to have stronger recruitment pipelines in engineering, aviation, healthcare, and IT. We would like to see those things put into this House. We would like to see better retention incentives that match the reality of the modern labour market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EThis bill does none of that. All this bill does is take another step in the long line of assault on workers\u2019 rights that prevent situations that happened at the end of 2024, when we had people striking for more than a zero percent pay increase. New Zealanders expect to have a defence force that is ready to respond in floods and fires, geopolitical risks, and humanitarian crises, but, instead, this Government has delivered a piece of legislation that responds only to its own political messaging, and that\u2019s a sad loss.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002242664a30b2084eecaa14aec43ec7cf61\u0022 data-id=\u00227920114bfca148fb9620b0f0386b2ae8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242664a30b2084eecaa14aec43ec7cf61\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227920114bfca148fb9620b0f0386b2ae8\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK (National\u2014East Coast):\u003C/span\u003E I have never heard so much rubbish in my life\u2014it\u2019s just unbelievable. I\u2019m delighted that I\u2019ve got the last word on this bill, because I\u2019ve got a few things that we need to clear up. Let\u2019s just remember, shall we, that the Government of the previous regime had six years in which they did nothing for Defence\u2014not a single thing. The attrition rate in Defence in their time was out the gate. It has now turned around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242664a30b2084eecaa14aec43ec7cf61\u0022\u003EI just want to reiterate a couple of things that my colleagues have said. It\u2019s shameful that the Opposition thinks it\u2019s OK to leave armaments and secure bases unprotected in times of strike because striking people are more important. No one denies that they are allowed to strike\u2014if you want to strike, happy days; go for your life\u2014but let\u2019s just remember that some of those places need to be protected in that time. You can\u2019t tell me\u2014no, not you, Madam Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f5d18043b2c4329bbb918e67954361c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Good point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242664a30b2084eecaa14aec43ec7cf61\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022221fe3c24d0849f38858c9b30d4f7a61\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK\u003C/span\u003E: The Opposition can\u2019t tell me that nurses and doctors leave the hospital when they strike and nothing is put in place to help people in that hospital. There are people that go in there and they take up those places so that people get looked after.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022574e6fdd52644fd0ac5b65b6409118e5\u0022\u003EDr Tracey McLellan\u003C/span\u003E: No, they don\u2019t. There are limited life-preserving facilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242664a30b2084eecaa14aec43ec7cf61\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b55236fee898431bb52233f095a5909b\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, they do, because I know some that do it. Let\u2019s just remember that we support our Defence Force and our service personnel and we want to make sure that they have safety and security as one of their key areas of focus, leaving the civil personnel to strike if they see fit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242664a30b2084eecaa14aec43ec7cf61\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s very simple, this bill. The Opposition members seem to have whipped themselves up into a frenzy, thinking it\u2019s a whole lot of things that it\u2019s not. It\u2019s simple: if you want to strike, you can strike if you\u2019re a civilian member of the Defence Force. This is plan B. This makes sure that those places are looked after. It\u2019s quite simple, and I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f121b70b5cbd49f9bc28e4867158ba47\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker\u2014oh, no? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3a6478975e64048a7ccf64c2ac26246\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3a6478975e64048a7ccf64c2ac26246\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, that\u2019s my call. Is this a point of order? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec86d947b18540cdb18453fa2220ecd1\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: No. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208c128d90e7d4d6aac7842d17fd57437\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0fbdd097dfa4bbd9058349b9f185f91\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002265d0c6907ccb42a3805f7cb45ab8328c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Defence (Workforce) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000300\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u002249f7f200d689403998ece5e502cefb09\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249f7f200d689403998ece5e502cefb09\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Education and Training (Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022060829635f0544fd864cbdb464105421\u0022\u003EEducation and Training (Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f4bc2788f6ea4710901722b66c2c2386\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228df3b485321944a389c6163a672d930f\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to principal Act, and Schedule 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00223b3b45e131734e9682c6da2f2d9fcce7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b3b45e131734e9682c6da2f2d9fcce7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Education and Training (Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill. We come first to Part 1, which is the debate on clauses 4 to 13\u2014\u201CAmendments to principal Act\u201D\u2014and Schedule 1. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8b7a7bce6af471f8534e5458a5eee99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8b7a7bce6af471f8534e5458a5eee99\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you. We come to the committee stage of the Education and Training (Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill. I\u2019d like to reiterate my thanks given in the second reading to the Education and Workforce Committee for their work on this bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022126342d4d13b4e7c9dfb35c57fc98ab2\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: No worries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5aa759c8fed46b29f016797368183a3\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Happy to help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a9552ad4fa84e3abd0dce909d6e4d58\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014oh, good\u2014and also just give a brief overview of Part 1, the first part of two parts in the bill. The purpose of this legislation, as has been said, is to establish a Director of Regulation, with a set of statutory objectives and some powers and some obligations. All of this is set up so that people in the early childhood sector can actually point to their rights\u2014that the person that holds the power over them will actually have some laws that restrain how they use their power, while also making clear what their priorities are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EIf we go through the clauses in Part 1, we begin by interpreting what early childhood education is and, therefore, what kind of services this part of the law will apply to: early childhood services and play groups that opt in to being certified under the Act. We then talk about the purpose of this part, and it is to regulate early childhood education in such a way that there are \u201Cminimum standards for quality early childhood education that allows all children to establish strong foundations for learning, well-being, and life outcomes;\u201D and also to \u201Csupport the choice of parents and caregivers to participate in the labour market.\u201D, which is important to a lot of parents up and down this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EOnce you have that purpose, there are certain objectives that are pursued in order to support the purpose. First and foremost, and absolutely critical, is protecting the health, safety, and wellbeing of children. Then there\u2019s educational and developmental outcomes, there\u2019s accessibility and choice for parents, and then there\u2019s informing parents and caregivers, because one of the things that was found in the Ministry for Regulation\u2019s review of the early childhood sector was that parents often can\u2019t actually identify what good is and what to bring market pressure on to providers to improve. Finally, the objective of implementing a licensing and certification system is something that the Director of Regulation will do to achieve this purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EIt then goes on in new section 27A in clause 7 to set out that the Director of Regulation must be appointed and must be an employee of the ministry at the time of the appointment, and it goes on, in new section 27B in clause 7, to list the functions that the director carries out. Those are things such as issuing the licences, providing support and information, and also assessing and responding to complaints about licensed early childhood services, and so that\u2019s an important avenue for parents. New section 27C in clause 7 goes on further to say how the director\u2019s functions and duties are performed. It says, first of all, that in accordance with the purpose and objectives that we have discussed, they\u2019re accountable to the Secretary of Education\u2014the chief executive of their respective department, and, finally, in new section 27D in clause 7, there are some principles. The health, safety, and wellbeing of children is the first principle that they have to follow. Similarly\u2014and I\u2019ll skip to the end\u2014they must have regard to \u201Cgood regulatory practice, including (without limitation) decision-making that\u2014(i) [must be] risk-based, proportionate, fair, and transparent; and (ii) avoids imposing unnecessary costs on parents, caregivers, and service providers.\u201D Then, in new section 27E in clause 7, \u201CDelegation of Director\u2019s functions, duties, and powers\u201D, this can be done\u2014obviously, there won\u2019t just be one Director of Regulation. There will be a number of people working for them, but they need to delegate those powers in writing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003ESubsequent to that, there are really a lot of changes that you might describe as mechanical, or minor and technical, but I think I\u2019ve laid out most of what Part 1 does. It sets out the purpose, the objectives used to achieve the purpose, then there\u2019s the Director of Regulation, and then there are their duties and the principles for which they carry out those duties to fulfil the objectives and achieve the purpose. All of this is offering transparency to the people who are regulated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EThere is a minor and technical amendment in my name that the Government intends to support. We\u2019ve reviewed other amendments as they\u2019ve come in. We do not intend to support other amendments. Thank you very much. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022 data-id=\u002230caac1076b74d01b26767d5647f14f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230caac1076b74d01b26767d5647f14f9\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the Minister for walking us through what this bill purports to do, in his view. Labour strenuously opposes this bill because it doesn\u2019t do what it says on the tin. It talks about facilitating early childhood education reform, when, in fact, what it does is it has a very strong labour market focus, and it doesn\u2019t\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1c212853efd49c096fa9d5e7fa9b9ad\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry to interrupt the member. Can I just ask members to refer to the clause that you\u2019re speaking to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d592a6a7087b4cc6b3ba8e8aa17fdd68\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, sure. What I was doing, Madam Chair\u2014thank you for the guidance\u2014was that I was just about to talk this committee of the whole House through Labour\u2019s approach to this, because when I come to my questions on clause 4, given that the Minister has given an overview, I would also like to give an overview of how we plan to approach this, if I may. The Minister himself has raised the purpose of the bill and he\u2019s talked about the effect of that, and it will be our view, as we interrogate the clauses, to show that, actually, there is a denigration of children\u2019s rights and we will be doing that through Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EHe has also talked about minimum standards. We will be interrogating the Minister about how those standards are upheld and what safeguards there are. He has also mentioned the complaints procedures and, through the parts relating to that, we will be asking for the processes that are involved and also about the vulnerability of the Crown to judicial review. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EAs I\u2019ve said, he has mentioned the purpose, and, clause by clause, we will see how, in our view, the drafting does not align with the purpose. Therefore, we have a number of amendments that we would like to table to make the drafting align further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThe Minister himself mentioned new section 27 in clause 7\u2014and, indeed, that is a fundamental section that we will be going through very carefully\u2014where a lot of the changes are made that, essentially, decouple the stewardship of the Ministry of Education with its regulatory role. This goes against the OECD best practice, and we will be referring to that in some of our questions in wanting to understand how New Zealand will be aligning itself with OECD countries, given that the decoupling goes in the opposite direction of what the OECD recommends.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThe Minister has also talked about having health, safety, and learning as priorities. We will have amendments relating to that, and to having a very strong focus on M\u0101ori and Te Tiriti. We are wanting to understand, and to get on the record for Hansard, as well, not only why Te Tiriti is not mentioned but there seem to be implicit references in parts of the bill and, therefore, we will be asking the Minister whether, in his view, Te Tiriti is implicitly to be considered when this bill is applied.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EFinally, just in response to the Minister\u2019s own opening remarks, where he talked about the schedules as being, essentially, technical: in fact, we find that many of the powers that will go from the Secretary of Education to the Director of Regulation are conferred by Schedule 1, and then the safeguards that we would expect to see in Schedule 2 are not there. We intend to spend some time on Schedule 1 and Schedule 2 to unpack how they could be improved and what the risks are as we see them, because we do not see the safeguarding in the legislation before us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EHaving said that, and being aware that this is the committee stage, I\u2019ll now turn to clause 4 with my specific questions. Clause 4 is really around definitions, as the Minister has said. This question will come up in relation, I think, to each of the clauses because we\u2019ve heard from many submitters that there are no Te Tiriti obligations, and so we want to understand why Te Tiriti is not mentioned in clause 4. We also want to know what advice and evidence he has sought on the impact on tangata whenua education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EWe would also like to understand what the Minister thinks a playgroup entails. What is his definition of the word \u201Cplaygroup\u201D in paragraph (b) of the new definition of \u201Cearly childhood education\u201D in section 10(1) of the Education and Training Act, in clause 4 of the bill? It talks about \u201Ca playgroup that opts to be certified\u201D. Can he please define a playgroup for us, and also what are the circumstances in which a playgroup would not be able to be certified under the Act? Is any playgroup able to be certified, or are there some criteria, and where will those criteria be located so that the director can do their oversight job? Finally, what is the difference between an early childhood service and a playgroup? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EI do also have some other questions on this regarding the regulatory impact statement (RIS). We have heard in the RIS that there has been a lack of consultation. This is mentioned on page 48, and so, again coming to these definitions that the Minister has referred to and that we see in new paragraphs (a) and (b) of the new definition, what assurance do we have that the definitions that he provides around playgroups and early childhood services actually align with the sector expectations? We also want to know how they will be assessed for standards when they haven\u2019t been consulted on them, and that, again, refers to the RIS, at page 48, where there is actually a repeated theme throughout the RIS about the lack of consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EI also have some legal questions. Given that I\u2019ve referred to the absence of Te Tiriti, does the Minister accept that this could undermine the Crown obligations, and, if not, why not\u2014if he could answer that question. Why doesn\u2019t it include Te Tiriti obligations in the key definitional clauses? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003ESome of our other questions relating to Treaty will be around the impact of the absence of Te Tiriti. Those are different questions, but for the purposes of this clause, we would like to know why it is not mentioned in the key definitional clause, and that will go to my later question, which comes around under the Schedule, where we see implicit references to things like puna reo, k\u014Dhanga reo, and so on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EFinally, in the RIS, at page 30, there has been an identification of a risk of confusion. Again, this is around some of the lack of certainty around the early childhood service and the playgroup, and so we need to get a very clear steer from the Minister as to where he gets these definitions from, whether they align with the sector, what consultation, if any, was done, and what will happen in the absence of having alignment on those definitions. Also, there are minimum standards and a playgroup that opts to be certified\u2014are there circumstances in which they cannot be? If so, what are they\u2014and it is the same in relation to an early childhood service. We will have many more questions on Part 1. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a92bf9bd647744e3a4b760e30fa9ba47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a92bf9bd647744e3a4b760e30fa9ba47\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E The member Ingrid Leary has just taken eight minutes to ask two very simple questions. First of all, a playgroup is defined in the wider Education and Training Act as a group that meets on a regular basis but where children don\u2019t attend for more than four hours at a time. There are other definitions, but the point is that the definition is already in the wider Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EOn the absence of a definition of the Treaty in the interpretation section of this bill, I\u2019m an ambitious politician and I thought about perhaps getting some of my ideas about defining the Treaty into this education amendment bill, but I actually just don\u2019t think that defining the Treaty of Waitangi should be done here in this interpretation section of the Education and Training Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022 data-id=\u00224bdf2d413ac94d41a87c7ca8dec01f91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224bdf2d413ac94d41a87c7ca8dec01f91\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Moving on to clause 5, this is an important part of these reforms. There were a number of submitters who wanted us to spend some time here and really understand the trade-offs and the choices that are being made by the Government to prioritise certain sets of values in the education system here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EJust for the committee\u2019s attention, section 14 in the Education and Training Act 2020, which is being amended by clause 5 has three parts. Some of those are being picked up here, but some of those are a bit different. They are about setting standards for quality. There is also a mention of provision there, which we\u2019ll get to in a second, but the second one is about health and safety and the wellbeing of children, and the third one is about enabling parental choice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EThose are all important things and they are mirrored here, but the difference is that submitters came to the committee and they raised their concerns, particularly those providers of things like kindergarten services, those providers who are community-based and who have had a long history of provision for children\u2014after, say, the Second World War, with the establishment of play centres and playgroups. Those organisations that were represented at the Education and Workforce Committee by their bodies continued to raise the point that in putting in the new section 14(b), as it is here, and then also backing that up with inserting the new section 14A points around establishing this for parents so that parents and caregivers have more information\u2014they felt that there was a sort of decentring of children\u2019s wellbeing and children\u2019s rights in this, and that\u2019s a fair enough point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EI want to first ask the Minister whether it is his intention to do that. Is it deliberate that these objectives sort of create a new hierarchy of how you might balance both the wellbeing of children and education provision with the rights of parents\u2014which, obviously, do exist and have been catered for in the original Act at section 14, but in a different way\u2014or is it the case that it is the same balancing exercise, and yet we are then introducing other sorts of provisions about how you might interpret that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EThe second question is around how this should be interpreted. When we talk about new section 14(b), as it\u2019s written here\u2014\u201Csupport choice of parents and caregivers to participate in the labour market.\u201D\u2014that is a good thing. Is that an acknowledgment of, really, just the administrative arrangements that are around this now? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003ESome departments that are outside of education manage this as an allocation, and they have done that well before the 2020 changes, let alone these changes. Departments like the Ministry of Social Development, for instance, administer the Out of School Care and Recreation (OSCAR) programmes, which are about providing education services, but they\u2019re predominantly because of labour market force participation. It\u2019s going to be a goal of any Government of New Zealand, I would suggest, that people who have the care of children in their ordinary life should have options and choices around that. So is that intended to be given effect in some different way here or is it the same balancing exercise, or is there more of an emphasis now\u2014which is what the submitters suggested there was\u2014on this active labour market participation, and, if so, should that be recognised? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EShould it be clearer, if the Minister is trying to give effect to those administrative arrangements that have grown up over time in the Public Service, that we also have this secondary goal of making sure that parents can participate in the workforce? Should it be making it clearer that early childhood education is about that? If that is an intention and that\u2019s what he means, then we should say that, and so those dual purposes there should have a sort of hierarchy and a balance between them, because there are trade-offs to be made by any Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EIf early childhood education is intended to provide a real range of services that are outside of what is currently being provided for in the market by those providers who came along to the committee and said that their number one concern was the welfare of children and their educational development\u2014if it is the intention in New Zealand to have another sort of service which is more like the OSCAR services, which are available to older children, where that is predominantly around the active labour market participation of parents and caregivers, then should we be setting that out more clearly here? Those are my two questions, and I have more on this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u002276f11d5d0e5949f19a00ba049a52e9cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276f11d5d0e5949f19a00ba049a52e9cb\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Can I quickly address these two questions in relation to new sections 14 and 14A in clause 5. The member Arena Williams asked what the Government\u2019s intention is in having twin purposes for the Act. One is to implement minimum standards for quality education for children, and the other is to support the choice of parents and caregivers to participate in the labour market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s clear to most people that early childhood education policy has those objectives now and has for a very long time. Successive Governments have introduced policies to boost that. What we\u2019re doing here is putting in statute law that those are the purposes that the Director of Regulation for early childhood education should be following. I can\u2019t make it any simpler than that. Those are the widely acknowledged objections; we\u2019re putting in law that the regulator must take heed of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EThen there was a question about whether new section 14A(d), by providing information to parents and caregivers\u2014the member described that as decentring children\u2019s rights. There are a couple of things in response to that: first, that comes three paragraphs after paragraph (a), which says that \u201Cprotecting the health, safety, and well-being of children\u201D is the first objective in the list; and, second of all, I don\u2019t know if the member has met any three-year-olds, but one of the best ways to help them is actually to ensure that their parents are enabled, because most three-year-olds are quite dependent on their parents and caregivers, and so by informing and helping them, we actually are centring the child. We could, of course, give all the information directly to the three-year-old, but\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014they might eat it or something, and that wouldn\u2019t work so well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4d4f0eab57e4dfdaa942dedcbe3832a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4d4f0eab57e4dfdaa942dedcbe3832a\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for the Minister\u2019s response, and I love the fact that the Minister is literally telling a mum of young children about what it is like being a parent of young children. I\u2019m sure that that is something that Arena Williams will have more to say on, but I want to pick up on something that the Minister has said. I want to start with clause 5, as well, because it is an important part of this bill, along with the Director of Regulation and also the regulation of early childhood education (ECE) in general.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EBut just looking at this first part, broadly, I see that the intention here of separating out the purpose and the objectives, and we\u2019ve seen that as well in terms of other legislation, particularly in terms of some of the broad objectives we\u2019ve seen in the education bill that was passed last week. But what the Minister said was interesting to me because new section 14(b) in clause 5, to \u201Csupport the choice of parents and caregivers to participate in the labour market.\u201D, is not in the existing legislation. That is new, and it\u2019s a very peculiar one because this is saying that the purpose of ECE is to ensure that we free up our parents to go and work. What we\u2019re looking at here, which I thought was a very interesting purpose in education because, I mean, unless the Minister can quote a specific section, there is no other part of the Education and Training Act about parents working in jobs\u2014like, that is not even covered within the overall purpose of the Education and Training Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EBut while that is what a lot of parents have to do\u2014and I do acknowledge all of the parents who are in this Chamber at this stage of the bill, and all of your spouses and partners who have to work and have to ensure that their children are going there. But what it also means, by this singular clause, is to treat early child education not as a place where tamariki learn and develop skills but, essentially, treating it as a babysitter\u2014essentially, a nannying service\u2014and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220ab1d4748c74608b244bfca51dce391\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not what it says\u2014that\u2019s not what it says. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b69d73805a242849060be5243e59a13\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: But that\u2019s exactly why we have this particular section here, and I cannot fathom why the Minister would consider including this part when it\u2019s not in the existing legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EConversely, what we\u2019re not seeing\u2014and it\u2019s quite an obvious gap within new sections 14 and 14A. There is not a single mention of teachers and there\u2019s not a single mention of the resources that support teachers who are working in ECE to ensure that a lot of this does take place. Again, I agree that parents do perform an important role in all of this, but in terms of providing for some of these teachers, it also performs an important role, and so if we\u2019re speaking to a separation of purpose and objectives\u2014you know, providing clarity\u2014I understand that. But I would ask the Minister to consider my amendment so that new section 14(b) to \u201Csupport the choice of parents and caregivers to participate in the labour market.\u201D isn\u2019t actually something that is needed within this section, especially when it\u2019s not in the existing legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EFurthermore, I would ask the Minister to start by considering my amendment that says that supporting qualified teachers and workers to ensure that they are well resourced and supported as part of the objectives\u2014I\u2019m not asking the Minister to include it in the purpose of Part 2 in new section 14; I\u2019m asking the Minister to include it in new section 14A, under the objectives. So I\u2019m going to start with those two questions, which are about the peculiar inclusion of new section 14(b) and what is the intention of that, and, in the purpose and objectives, why are teachers not mentioned at all? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7fe66b3196b4d87926997638d08dc30\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7fe66b3196b4d87926997638d08dc30\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E If the member Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan had listened to the debate, he would have heard my earlier answer. New section 14(b) in clause 5 is being put in the legislation because it reflects the simple reality that many New Zealanders actually do send their child to early childhood education so that they can go to work. I mean, if the member seriously doesn\u2019t think that that\u2019s what happens in New Zealand, I don\u2019t know where he has been\u2014certainly not listening to this debate. I won\u2019t repeat myself again on that topic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EHe then asked why we do not include teachers. Well, very simply, this is about children. This is about getting outcomes for children. I know that there will be people who want the service provider to be put at the centre of the policy, but it\u2019s not\u2014we\u2019re doing this for children, and we have no intention of supporting the member\u2019s amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022 data-id=\u00226c48d4cb10d7445fa5621f54a288114e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c48d4cb10d7445fa5621f54a288114e\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to pick up on a point that the Associate Minister of Education raised there about new section 14(b) in clause 5, and the kind of unusual answer that he gave, where he said that he was not willing to repeat himself. Well, I wouldn\u2019t want him to repeat himself, either, because that would be very tiresome to listen to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022\u003EBut my question that I would like to put to the Minister is that throughout the regulatory impact statement, there has been constant referral to the lack of consultation. There\u2019s been constant referral to the possibility of being opened up to future litigation, which we will probably ask questions about, a little bit further on, but I just don\u2019t see the need. The Minister said before that parents and people know that early childhood education (ECE) is an educational service, but it\u2019s also known that parents use it when they are in the workforce. They use ECE services and send their children to ECE services when in the workforce, and so if that was something that everybody already knew, why is it so important to make it a specific purpose\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276968130a1f24d0d886f7011f7cca943\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: To remind you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8c577e1da234b4a9e16daca64ffaac8\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in the Act? Maybe you could take a call\u2014oh no, maybe not, because I don\u2019t think you\u2019d have anything worth listening to. But perhaps you could explain then, if it was well-known, why there is a specific need\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c207d2c842642d2b991b1b6befc0137\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: I think the Chair is worth listening to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6a7bb85cf4342998005af38d5e096d5\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m asking the Minister, Mr Bates, not you, and so please be quiet. I can\u2019t get my question to the Minister if he can\u2019t hear through your barracking. I\u2019ll go back. My question to the Minister with regard to new section 14(b) is: if everybody knows that that\u2019s what was happening and occurring in ECE, then why feel the need to make a specific purpose for this piece of legislation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022\u003EAlso, given the lack of consultation out there\u2014I noticed that there was some consultation undertaken as part of a review, but not direct consultation with regard to this piece of legislation, particularly with teachers and parents. That is concerning and we will have more questions around that a bit further on. I also wanted to know why there was the need to take the wording about supporting health and safety out of the purpose section and put it into an objectives section when that doesn\u2019t really specify how to go about protecting health and safety. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022\u003EI see some of this as being extremely unnecessary. Having come from the sector myself and having been a teacher, and also having been a centre owner, these things were never an issue, and so I don\u2019t understand why the Minister feels the need to specifically tease these out and add these really unusual purposes in. It would be really great to be able to understand the Minister\u2019s thinking there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u0022dec9a20abe8349b98f164fe22a71b7b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dec9a20abe8349b98f164fe22a71b7b7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E In relation to the first question about why, in clause 5, we are putting the requirement in new section 14(b) in statute, well, the whole purpose of this exercise is to put into law the rights and responsibilities of the regulator and, therefore, also the rights and responsibilities of the regulated into law. That\u2019s the whole purpose of doing this, which I explained in my opening remarks, and I\u2019m not sure if that member heard them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EThen the question was: has there been enough consultation? Well, actually, this is a process that began in June 2024. Eighteen months ago, the Ministry for Regulation began consulting literally thousands of teachers, centre owners, and parents about their desires for the regulation of early childhood education, and this bill puts into place the recommendations that Cabinet agreed after that consultation process. There\u2019s probably never been more consultation on a bill of this length to make improvements to regulations, and so, no, I\u2019m very comfortable and the Government is very comfortable with the amount of consultation that\u2019s occurred.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022 data-id=\u00224ef8fa6596b94b08afde745ec20e726c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ef8fa6596b94b08afde745ec20e726c\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. OK, those are very useful questions, and I thank the Minister for his explanation of new section 14(b). As you can see, this is something that my colleagues on this side of the Chamber and submitters have been quite interested in, and it is useful for us to clarify what this means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EMy first question, then, in this part is on the difference around the provision wording in the original section in the Education and Training Act, and then the words \u201Cto provide for\u201D, which the Minister has chosen. The difference there seems to me to be that provision across locations is not something which is either\u2014geographic locations or for certain communities or to make sure that there is a choice for parents isn\u2019t something which is included as a purpose in this part, and I\u2019d like the Minister to clarify that. On the old reading\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022155638cce5424de4b78d5e636457b9cd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Can you please clarify which part you\u2019re speaking to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a070aee15ab432ab0928014f6e6d378\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I\u2019m talking to clause 5, which creates new section 14, which is entitled \u201CPurpose of Part 2\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254d396399e90413294277830d0b7908c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022450407b8881d44a1a5b8d601bfceed6d\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and under subsection (a) here, we have the words \u201Cset and implement minimum standards to provide for\u201D. That is a formulation of that word \u201Cprovide\u201D, which means that the regulator is regulating for the regulated to provide services to a set of minimum standards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EUnder the old formulation, which uses the word \u201Cprovision\u201D, the settings there are around ensuring that the provision meets the needs of parents. The difference there is that as electorate MPs, we know that many of us do not have enough early childhood education centres for children locally to go to. It\u2019s not clear whether that\u2019s a problem in some communities, because many parents drive their children from one area to another\u2014so from, say, Manurewa to central Auckland\u2014because they are working parents, and so that\u2019s fine and we don\u2019t need to solve that problem and that situation. But we don\u2019t know that, because the standards aren\u2019t set in such a way that it would be clear that that was a policy problem that needed to be solved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EUnder the old provision, though, there was still a reason and a purpose for the regulator to make sure that that problem to be solved was a problem that could be solved. Under the current provision, the formulation \u201Cset and implement minimum standards to provide for\u201D is about providing minimum standards for those providers of education, in whatever location they happen to be in, to meet the standards that are required of them. That\u2019s fine if you want to take that approach, but it is a change, because there is a policy problem when parents can\u2019t access these services that they need in the locality in which they need them. The question, then, of the Minister is whether that is deliberate, or are you meant to read that \u201Cto provide for quality early childhood\u201D as if there is still a requirement that, somewhere, someone\u2014either the Secretary of Education or the Director of Regulation\u2014knows that there is a policy problem there to be solved around provision, be it equitable provision or otherwise just simply geographic provision, and is there a mechanism by which to solve that that is enabled by this, probably under new section 14(a), that I\u2019m not seeing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EMy second question in this part is around what these services that, as the Minister has explained, support the choice of parents and caregivers to participate in the labour market look like, because these services, under the old formulation, probably didn\u2019t exist. They were probably down at an end of the market that we didn\u2019t have under the old formulation. Here\u2019s my guess: they are probably less expensive, they are probably less intensive, and they are probably less focused, perhaps, on educational outcomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EThere are a range of services for the care of children which are outside of the education system at the moment now, but they are designed for older children\u2014like the Out of School Care and Recreation programmes, or like babysitting, which my colleagues have discussed. Is this a new sort of service which will exist under this new formulation in new section 14 which the Minister envisions here, where they are primarily about the labour market participation of the parents, and, if so, are they meeting that need and not meeting the needs for the educational wellbeing of the children\u2014what does that service look like? What should New Zealanders expect to see, or is there no new service and this is simply recognising currently that this sort of provision of day-care services is also meeting that need? That would be a helpful clarification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EJust two further quick points, and, actually, I\u2019ll have to raise this with the Minister later, but it is about grandparents. There are 10,000 grandparents in New Zealand\u2014as was advocated by Seniors New Zealand\u2014who undertake the parental care of their grandchildren. They are constantly invisibilised in our regulations and our primary legislation, and they should be recognised in this new section 14. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u002292a707f38fef404b9ca72ab3ac04cc0e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292a707f38fef404b9ca72ab3ac04cc0e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Grandparents can be caregivers for the purposes of this Act. There is not any type of new service envisaged that we are putting in place. The purpose with which the Director of Regulation will regulate\u2014there\u2019s not any suggestion anywhere here that a new type of service is being created. The member Arena Williams seems to ask why the legislation doesn\u2019t seek to require the supply of early childhood education (ECE). To start an ECE centre requires initiative, and, by definition, you can\u2019t force someone to take an initiative, and so we\u2019re not seeking to mandate that people open early childhood education centres. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u00225a599d4d591c4705980bc4d76a3d298a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a599d4d591c4705980bc4d76a3d298a\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just one last call on clause 5, from me, anyway, before I move on to the latest section. I appreciate the Associate Minister of Education\u2019s response to my earlier question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ENow, when it comes to the purpose of Part 2, I wanted to check this. One of the barriers, currently, for parents\u2014and I understand that the Minister has clarified that the purpose is to support the choice of parents and caregivers to participate in the labour market. But one of the challenges we\u2019re currently seeing in early childhood education (ECE) is that even though parents are participating in the labour market, ECE providers are actually too expensive for parents to be able to afford that, and I think that that is a really important part if that is going to be a purpose of what the Minister is proposing. So I wanted to check with the Minister in terms of my amendment to this, which would include a new purpose, which is to ensure that we have a well-resourced public early childhood education system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EEarly childhood education should be a part of the public system, like schools, and the purpose should reflect that, and I think that that would go hand in hand with what the Minister is proposing under new section 14(b) in clause 5 in terms of parents participating in the labour market, because the parents are, I guess, more encouraged to do that if they are able to have free or cheaper ECE services, but at this stage, that\u2019s simply not the case in terms of the costs. Therefore\u2014to focus on the parents\u2014why would they use an ECE service and enter the labour market if they\u2019re actually going to be worse off overall than if they hadn\u2019t done that in the first place? That\u2019s one of my amendments that I would like the Minister to consider. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ENow, on to new section 14A in clause 5, I have a number of amendments around this as well. The first one\u2014and I think that the Minister kind of touched on that\u2014is that under new section 14A(a), when you\u2019re looking at protecting \u201Cthe health, safety, and well-being of children receiving early childhood education;\u201D, I think it\u2019s important to give a specific example here, and I want to engage with the Minister on whether he would consider my amendment, which would be to include having an adequate teacher-student ratio. Probably one of the most important things that the sector is asking for is to have a sufficient student-teacher ratio, which would align with protecting the health, safety, and wellbeing of the children. We are seeing at this stage that for certain providers, the ratio is stretched to the point that the teacher cannot even take their legally entitled leave, because the minute they take leave such as a lunch break, etc., the ECE centre will break ratio, which is not going to be good for the health, safety, and wellbeing of the child. Like the Minister has said, that\u2019s probably the most important focus that we have here: the health, safety, and wellbeing of the child. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ENow, moving along in terms of some of my other amendments, I want to engage with the Minister on improving educational and developmental outcomes, which is paragraph (b) of new section 14A, \u201CObjectives\u201D. I think that education and development outcomes are really, really, important, but one thing that potentially isn\u2019t covered in that\u2014unless the Minister is able to clarify whether it falls under \u201Cdevelopmental\u201D\u2014is emotional outcomes, and I ask whether that is something that we are going to be seeing as a part of the objectives, because, again, we\u2019re seeing an increasing number of students with higher needs, both in terms of entering into ECE but also in terms of entering into primary school. That\u2019s an ongoing trend, and I ask whether that is something that the Minister would consider.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EFinally, one of my other amendments would add another objective to new section 14A, and I think that this objective reflects two objectives. One of them is around our international obligations under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, and also, if we are looking at taking on something like this\u2014akin to what we\u2019re seeing in terms of section 127 of the Education and Training Act in terms of board objectives, but maybe for ECE\u2014it is also looking at ensuring that early childhood education gives effect to the relevant student rights set out in the Act but also the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act and the Human Rights Act. That\u2019s my final amendment that I want to check with the Minister on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u00224d9433e0ea2a414bbd9adf0f3dac93f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d9433e0ea2a414bbd9adf0f3dac93f2\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E There was a lot of, frankly, indecipherable speech there. What I did get out of it was that in new section 14A(b), should we add emotional outcomes? Well, actually it\u2019s hard to imagine how to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294aa49c6e1b14136a44e3dd89359ec96\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Chairperson. I just want to seek your clarification and guidance on something. We are hearing these patronising little jabs from the Minister. I want to just check with you: does that mean that it\u2019s open slather for everyone to start their speech with\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a257e7f10554c0ba3572919cdc37f2a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not a point of order. Holding the committee of the whole House in order is the role of the Chair, and I will rule if there is unparliamentary language. I was listening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249997460126a41ffbc91c71048ae8edf\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair, and that\u2019s probably a good example of why there should be more emotional development in early childhood education. But it\u2019s clear that developmental outcomes include emotional development, and the Government has no intention of adding the member Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EThere was a question of whether the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act and the Treaty of Waitangi should be added to new section 14A, \u201CObjectives\u201D. I think that for people watching this at home, you\u2019d just have to ask yourself\u2014if you\u2019re running an early childhood centre, you\u2019re focused on the quality of the education, the safety of the children, and the information provided to the parents. There\u2019s an unreality about the suggestions that maybe they should also be asking about the Treaty of Waitangi and the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, and it\u2019s exactly the kind of reason why I recall\u2014and, in many ways, it\u2019s the genesis of this bill being here\u2014seeing 500 early childhood operators absolutely steaming before the 2023 election. They were furious at the rubbish that they\u2019d been subjected to, and not a single member of the then Government fronted, which really astonished me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EWe are getting rid of the extraneous stuff. We\u2019re putting in law the true purposes of regulating early childhood education so that those people can tap on the sign and have explained to them why it is that we regulate early childhood education, and it is so that all of us can get on better and have more effective services for the youngest New Zealanders. It\u2019s as simple as that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u00220bc3ce877d3e4af39b83c8684cc450bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220bc3ce877d3e4af39b83c8684cc450bd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, it\u2019s time for me to leave the Chair for the lunch break. The committee is suspended and will resume after question time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1.02 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ff5c3319994d42c988a9d17b385b1f07\u0022\u003EVisitors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220fe9c17aedf94581810748da44370346\u0022\u003EFiji\u2014Parliamentary Delegation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u00220ab57604bc5e4895bbd5127d650f049a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ab57604bc5e4895bbd5127d650f049a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I\u2019m sure that you\u2019d want to join with me in welcoming the Hon Sakiusa Tubuna, Chair of the Standing Committee on Economic Affairs from the Parliament of the Republic of Fiji and his accompanying delegation, who are present in the gallery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c60ce35e923f46ce98f4fa3040e1ec07\u0022\u003EAppointments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a09f944c964745688d073f9b334585e2\u0022\u003EAssistant Speaker\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u002286d699e5912b41bc8d3a591e0abcdd9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286d699e5912b41bc8d3a591e0abcdd9f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I seek leave for the Hon Jenny Salesa to be appointed as a temporary Assistant Speaker until 11.59 p.m. on Saturday, 29 November 2025. Is there any objection to that course of action being followed? There is none. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b2115c1b4345443586389df84ad900f3\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226a9c82567c5c484683a11efa6c3c1a6d\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022311eba0f075e448993bb59225ea956bb\u0022 data-id=\u00228a93b4f643aa4354b8ffa59ce7c35960\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022311eba0f075e448993bb59225ea956bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a93b4f643aa4354b8ffa59ce7c35960\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. Just to try and save getting complaints, I believe you\u2014do we need to do the prayer? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u00221353f06cc26440d0ae6eeead6006a1dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221353f06cc26440d0ae6eeead6006a1dd\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, because the House is still in session. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022311eba0f075e448993bb59225ea956bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ed1e16bd26b4ba1b5bcfae3f0fce552\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: I just wanted to avoid that, just in case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1d544e1e026481987a6462f7a590c99\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. No, thank you for raising that. I\u2019m sure that there will be a lot of people watching the broadcast who will wonder why we didn\u2019t start with the prayer today. It\u2019s because the House has sat this morning and this is a break from urgency. Therefore, the House is in continuum from yesterday. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002207fbb8b721984d428e0d34b1f9c4d2a5\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229d88626db2c948e7b2c9d2e2bcd6c255\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022599ea9ddc53c42c7ad356197ce351c6a\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Economic Growth\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266d6872f24ce4f77ba5ac75f0fc62c76\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf08001ee3f5416c8d6fca04aaf7ac93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266d6872f24ce4f77ba5ac75f0fc62c76\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf08001ee3f5416c8d6fca04aaf7ac93\u0022\u003ESUZE REDMAYNE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Economic Growth: What recent reports has she seen on exporters\u2019 access to United States markets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd4697958602486abdcf5087aad45f56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd4697958602486abdcf5087aad45f56\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister for Economic Growth):\u003C/span\u003E The Government welcomes the United States\u2019 decision this week to remove the additional tariffs that had been applied to a range of New Zealand agricultural products, including beef, offal, and kiwifruit. These products represent around 25 percent of our exports to the United States, worth approximately $2.21 billion a year. The removal of these tariffs restores pre - liberation day access for exporters and provides some relief for farmers, processors, and rural communities, and the jobs that they support. This is a positive step in the right direction for free and competitive trade.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266d6872f24ce4f77ba5ac75f0fc62c76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022362525d229bb4c198b72099d0dffd63f\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: How will this benefit New Zealand exporters?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db19ce5514a94a33bd059030a46c8df6\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The removal of the additional 10 to 15 percent tariffs is expected to save New Zealand exporters around $330 million in duty costs per year. That, of course, represents a meaningful boost for our agricultural sector, particularly beef, offal, and kiwifruit producers, helping strengthen export revenues at a time when international conditions remain challenging. This also contributes to New Zealand\u2019s wider economic recovery, improving cash flow for exporters that underpin jobs and boost regional incomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266d6872f24ce4f77ba5ac75f0fc62c76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac8419a5ffb747579508ba7bd23cfad9\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: What has industry said about this change?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f9a6cd68fcb442aaf3ee78279775eec\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, removing the additional tariffs lowers costs for exporters and strengthens New Zealand\u2019s competitiveness in one of our most important markets. Industry has welcomed the decision. Beef \u002B Lamb New Zealand says, \u201CThis returns us to a level playing field.\u201D, while the Meat Industry Association of New Zealand notes that \u201CWith US production at 70-year lows, New Zealand\u2019s high-quality, safe food and fibre products are needed in that market. This announcement is welcomed and supports our export-led recovery, allowing New Zealand food exporters to compete and contribute fully to a stronger, more resilient New Zealand economy.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266d6872f24ce4f77ba5ac75f0fc62c76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224dbf8c571e946378c6d241a13b4eaae\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: What other actions is the Government taking to increase trade opportunities for New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b33365e8d9204e5f8055a7305dace485\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand is a trading nation, and this Government set the ambitious target of doubling the value of our exports in 10 years. To progress that, we have expanded work with Gulf partners through the United Arab Emirates and New Zealand Gulf Cooperation Council agreements; launched and progressed free-trade agreement negotiations with India; expanded cooperation with the Association of Southeast Asian Nations; and reduced non-tariff barriers through regulatory alignment, digital trade tools like e-certification, and targeted market access work across agencies. Together, these steps support more predictable access, lower compliance costs, and stronger export-led growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226b7b2177885141c683513a79530c78b5\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226327e49d349443e693f980fcd245b385\u0022 data-id=\u00225901124294994966b03964d790db8638\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226327e49d349443e693f980fcd245b385\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225901124294994966b03964d790db8638\u0022\u003EJAMIE ARBUCKLE (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Health: What recent data has she seen about smoking rates in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022 data-id=\u002216ccfcf62ec940ebbb741ed9eb711883\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216ccfcf62ec940ebbb741ed9eb711883\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E This morning, results from the New Zealand health survey on smoking rates between 1 July 2024 and 30 June 2025 were released. While it\u2019s encouraging to see the daily smoking rate across all populations decreased slightly to 6.8 percent, it\u2019s even more encouraging to see that fewer Pasifika are smoking and that the smoking rate for 15- to 24-year-olds is 3.2 percent, down from 19.1 percent when the survey started 13 years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226327e49d349443e693f980fcd245b385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4ec9a3c337045dea2eba37ebe267ade\u0022\u003EJamie Arbuckle\u003C/span\u003E: What do the results tell us about current smokers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a94887163fe1477b831d2ea2245140b9\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: At the broadest level, smoking rates for those aged between 45 and 64 remain persistently high. While Health New Zealand and stop-smoking services have worked to refocus their efforts on this demographic, it takes time to shift the behaviour of people who have been lifelong smokers. The data also show that continued focus is needed to reduce M\u0101ori and Pasifika smoking rates, which remain higher than population-wide. To be clear, Health New Zealand and stop-smoking providers continue to work incredibly hard to reach into communities to support those who smoke to quit, through whatever tools work for them, whether it\u2019s gum, lozenges, patches, or vapes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226327e49d349443e693f980fcd245b385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c7c3b76ab914e7687832b37baca83d5\u0022\u003EJamie Arbuckle\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227001b0d40c1c46cd86ff1c8133ff18ba\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait a minute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226327e49d349443e693f980fcd245b385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c66868c1e98418780403df3f9317d4d\u0022\u003EJamie Arbuckle\u003C/span\u003E: What other trends do the data show?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fc8aa81c8e74f3cafa00ac7a20932e9\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m particularly interested in digging further into what\u2019s driving a growing gender gap in smoking rates. Smoking rates for women have been noticeably decreasing more quickly than those for men. We\u2019re also seeing a slower but steady growth in Asian smoking rates, which had previously been amongst our lowest smokers. While these trends highlight the need for us to remain agile in how we target our efforts to reduce smoking rates, what we can\u2019t lose sight of is the tremendous progress that\u2019s been made: we have 280,000 fewer smokers than we did 13 years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226327e49d349443e693f980fcd245b385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d48911525474755856d24d0c17cc176\u0022\u003EJamie Arbuckle\u003C/span\u003E: What are the next steps she is considering?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022778b10af89f64887b366c8082f403d66\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve alluded to, I want to ensure we\u2019re making the best use of our resources, and this includes how best to target the people who are actually smoking. Thankfully, we know young people aren\u2019t taking it up. What we need to focus on is how to shift older smokers, connect with M\u0101ori and Pasifika smokers, and reduce the gap between males and females. In addition, I\u2019m considering further regulatory changes that will ensure we have a regime that reflects the harm of products and has appropriate controls on the market. These changes will be informed by recommendations from the Ministry of Health smoke-free advisory group.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229614f72223c643a3a3bfd367245dbb23\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Has she seen that due to the success of this programme, there is less tax coming into the Treasury of $200 million; and is that going to the tobacco companies, or is the explanation behind that that someone who says that is an economic moron? [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbe4f06fbc944d0484fe7b644e059970\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019ll do\u2014that\u2019s enough. A very brief answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a82e4920eef4933afe8053f0d19f275\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, we can confirm that there are no tax breaks, for those who understand the economy. This is about a budget for reduced revenue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc599bdb3d2c4670b190011311453b4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc599bdb3d2c4670b190011311453b4a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the next question, I\u2019ll just go back to the drill sheet for a Government motion that I understand was circulated to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003EQuestion time interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002242c8fd7bdaf24a348e4a74f8a0b8969d\u0022\u003EMotions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229e53c4c5505c4ea99ddcec36a3ae1578\u0022\u003EPike River Disaster\u201415th Anniversary\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u00225771784d3ca3469eba1c7fc1bb73d63a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225771784d3ca3469eba1c7fc1bb73d63a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the next question, I\u2019ll just go back to the drill sheet for a Government motion that I understand was circulated to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f225b9990b9149c7be81abbd49ab75c8\u0022 data-id=\u0022cfa0812198b447ef8ccfbe3f438ccaed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f225b9990b9149c7be81abbd49ab75c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cfa0812198b447ef8ccfbe3f438ccaed\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I seek leave to move a motion without notice or debate to recognise the anniversary of the Pike River disaster.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5af8e73e3ff422f83059df4dd48d53a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being followed? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f225b9990b9149c7be81abbd49ab75c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e56a4395d0b49539e72597ef66d6bf6\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That this House notes that 19 November 2025 marks 15 years since the Pike River disaster; express its condolences to family and friends who will forever be profoundly impacted; and thank rescue and support teams for their service on that day and the days that followed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f225b9990b9149c7be81abbd49ab75c8\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a0043c4a65d44a0e96d3470a35a34a7d\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227612038cb8044019a9b4ade24a588c34\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000436\u0022\u003EQuestion time resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002222f54edde06649ffaf397a3a24c68479\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022 data-id=\u0022550ac498526a476a9feb65fbe2281b00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022550ac498526a476a9feb65fbe2281b00\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe9107fee58648d6a9761f12c50b72d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe9107fee58648d6a9761f12c50b72d0\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f998c53abb8746658696b3120adb7fcf\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: When he told Mike Hosking, in July last year, that \u201Cfood prices are falling really quickly\u201D, which food prices was he referring to, given staples like milk, cheese, butter, and bread have all skyrocketed in price, under his leadership, some by as much as 50\u00A0percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e566e1677ce451a9662b0a5eaf356a7\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I was referring to the 12.5\u00A0percent under his Government, when he was Prime Minister, versus the 4.7\u00A0percent under my Government, when I\u2019m Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b2f1b40db054c33825b4f63cafed64b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: So does he regard a 4.7\u00A0percent increase in food prices as \u201Cfood prices falling really quickly\u201D, and does he think that most New Zealand families would feel that way?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210c1e41df39848cba977e8fe674fee34\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: From 12.5\u00A0percent to 4.7\u00A0percent, that is a much better result.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b197251000704175a2b3deaf5a66012b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think that the price of an average family\u2019s grocery shop is cheaper or more expensive under his leadership?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b078b68cb074668ba74c26df3dacfa2\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member, hopefully, does understand inflation, which is a thing where prices keep going up. Food prices have gone up 4.7\u00A0percent. It\u2019s because dairy and meat prices and global coffee prices, in particular, have been contributing to that result. But what I say is that when food prices go up 12.5\u00A0percent, each year, under his Government, versus 4.7\u00A0percent under our Government, and inflation is at 3\u00A0percent, that is a better result and a better outcome than what he achieved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222044fe659cba4f2eb87a2b0f423b9e46\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm that between November 2020 and November 2023, food prices rose a total of 22\u00A0percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294fd53f741154edab0a7474a9165c133\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I can, and that was a function of a Government that increased wasteful spending, drove up inflation, and drove up interest rates. This is a Government that has taken inflation down, has had eight interest rate cuts, and food inflation at 4.7\u00A0percent\u2014we\u2019d love it to be lower, but it\u2019s much better than 12.5 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f92f344304e453e9ace766beb4f1bd2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: If his Government has fixed the cost of living crisis, as he\u2019s claimed, why are there now 650,000 New Zealanders\u2014one in seven\u2014who cannot afford to go and see their doctor?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fa38574138348458920821c53c110f3\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019d just say, under this Government, we have made the biggest investment around primary GP care by capping it at 3\u00A0percent and putting $175\u00A0million in. Ninety percent of New Zealanders, if they don\u2019t have a community services card, can access a GP for $70 or less. But, again, the member wants to gaslight his record, but under his Government, GP prices went up 30\u00A0percent. Again, the simplest thing that the member could do is come on board and support the extended prescriptions, because, of course, that would free up $105 and actually make sure that a 12-month period, rather than a three-month period, means more GP appointments are made available to everybody.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022696d403b4a26498591afda6bcd552394\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: So will New Zealanders pay more for their prescriptions or less than they would have had the Government not scrapped free prescriptions, as they did when they first became the Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcfcbb2815924a9cbb585d840b3d6c5b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealanders who have long-term medical issues and who need regular medicines can now extend those medicines out to 12 months, meaning they don\u2019t have to go back to the GP to get repeat prescriptions. That saves them $105. It\u2019s a pretty simple issue. It\u2019s not ideological. Just come on board and support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f644ce03d32642c29a1ca25ba6d4233e\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm that the Government has committed billions of dollars into filling fiscal holes and funding dozens of new medicines for hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders through its careful economic management?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e033e3266db4d29aace66880e9711f2\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm that the Pharmac management has got infinitely better. I want to thank the Minister for his contributions around that. We actually did plug a fiscal cliff that was left behind by the previous administration. We put forward $605\u00A0million into cancer drugs. We have made a big investment in GP visits. We\u2019re very, very focused on all of our metrics in healthcare, unlike the last Government where it went backwards on everything. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ea419e39f1345419bdb9c5885c30702\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: So how does increasing the price of going to your doctor and introducing fees for prescriptions help New Zealanders struggling with the cost of living?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228b805caeb8d4340a9aadd7b1230539f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it went up over 30\u00A0percent under Labour, under your Government. That\u2019s how much the GP fees went up\u2014over 30\u00A0percent. We have capped them at 3\u00A0percent. We have put $175\u00A0million in. We are simply saying to people who have long-term prescriptions: extend them out to 12 months and save GP visits, freeing up opportunities for other folk to be able to get into their GP much faster.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226788c045a029483baae82e23372bbf1d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept responsibility for the fact that there are now 98,000 more New Zealanders smoking or vaping daily than when he became Prime Minister and that New Zealand has plummeted from second in the world to 53rd in the world, when it comes to the Global Tobacco Industry Interference Index, falling further and faster than any other country on Earth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a779fbe86eb4baeaa7956fb210a84c2\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, first and foremost, if I could deal with the last bit first, the Tobacco Industry Interference Index, which, actually, is not a credible report, because when Brunei is ranked number one in the world and they\u2019re smoking rate is 17\u00A0percent, it\u2019s not the best thing I\u2019d be putting my store of knowledge into. But I\u2019d also just say to the member that New Zealand has the third-lowest smoking rate in the OECD, and we are at 6.8 percent. That is very good progress when you consider the UK is at 11.9 percent, the US is at 11.6\u00A0percent. When you look at Australia, it\u2019s at about 8.3\u00A0percent; Canada is at about 8.2\u00A0percent. We are making good progress, but we are now dealing with a small group of hard core smokers that we actually need to continue to work hard at, and, encouragingly, when you look at 15-to-24-year-old smoking rates, they are well below 5\u00A0percent\u2014well below 4\u00A0percent\u2014at 3.2\u00A0percent. That\u2019s a good thing. That\u2019s a generational shift. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3595c1e597d4bb392051c31373b5a41\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: If the Prime Minister is correct with respect to that false report that had, for example, Burkina Faso way ahead of us, when their smoking is far higher than ours\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd427636d3f049fcb98c10dcf30f3834\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: It is an indictment on this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e804560c4fd546b495c224352f587727\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the question is: why did Morning Report run that rubbish, unchallenged, earlier this week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227eca6c91c9242cfaaf3858c1c0f0a42\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t know, but it\u2019s clearly not a credible report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022311eba0f075e448993bb59225ea956bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b677fbbedd8448c8a598accaecae02ee\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, sir.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a12d2d33f6242dc963b7b3ec27844f2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I\u2019ll have to say that I\u2019m tempted to actually ask for the question to be asked again because there was a comment made across the House during that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022311eba0f075e448993bb59225ea956bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215ea393514244ee5afd0f5e5445b17eb\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Yesterday, sir, you required a member to commence a question without statement and with a question word. That is consistent with Speakers\u2019 ruling 187/7. We would ask that that direction be applied consistently across all members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0e9e908b11845da81593e9ddc506770\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, most certainly. That last question started with the word \u201Ccan\u201D. Prime Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca387a17d8ef4ac9818f24709787a7d9\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve answered it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022930ae91d051f4a82b9e1c8c47ab8f917\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, you\u2019ve answered that one. I missed that part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022971808942104410987605cc5ca09e9d8\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Infrastructure\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df23ed9a7102406f9899558fb3841582\u0022 data-id=\u002249b41d37b3a1449cb8346d9745167517\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df23ed9a7102406f9899558fb3841582\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249b41d37b3a1449cb8346d9745167517\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Infrastructure: What reports has he seen on New Zealand\u2019s Infrastructure Pipeline?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022 data-id=\u002282789f21692249b5975ffbf5255a8e22\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282789f21692249b5975ffbf5255a8e22\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister for Infrastructure):\u003C/span\u003E This week, the New Zealand Infrastructure Commission released its quarterly snapshot report on the infrastructure pipeline for the quarter ending 30 September. It shows the value of infrastructure initiatives in the pipeline has grown to $275\u00A0billion, an increase of $38\u00A0billion from the previous quarter. It\u2019s great news for the construction sector and for economic growth. The value of initiatives with a confirmed funding source increased from the previous quarter, up by $56\u00A0billion to $181\u00A0billion. Overall, the pipeline now contains over 12,000 projects that are under way or being planned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df23ed9a7102406f9899558fb3841582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f622225f74934cdda30247237242d05b\u0022\u003EDr Carlos Cheung\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the national infrastructure pipeline important?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284fdef757cf54cdb942002c622b6e506\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: The pipeline signals upcoming activity to the market, helping people plan ahead for major projects so they can hire, train, and retain key staff. We are working hard with infrastructure providers to improve the quality of information into the pipeline and also to raise the visibility of the pipeline itself. It is quite common to hear some people, including commentators and MPs in this House, say, \u201CWhat we need is an infrastructure pipeline.\u201D I agree. The truth is we have one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df23ed9a7102406f9899558fb3841582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dcff93bfcd648469d20e1de9a7d3af5\u0022\u003EDr Carlos Cheung\u003C/span\u003E: How many infrastructure projects are under construction?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8781014f8f646cb90b5f61a09876ee1\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: There are 2,500 infrastructure projects under construction across the country, with a further $10.5\u00A0billion of initiatives in procurement that will begin work shortly. In the September 2025 quarter, New Zealand was building over 680 water projects, 590 transport projects, 80 school projects, and 35 health and hospital projects. Around 320 initiatives under construction are valued at over $25\u00A0million each. We\u2019re looking forward to seeing this grow over time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df23ed9a7102406f9899558fb3841582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269180dd0205c42ed8961461a256540d6\u0022\u003EDr Carlos Cheung\u003C/span\u003E: How many infrastructure projects are under construction in Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4a9329a0489400baf65b6c1e3c73694\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I know that the member will be very interested in Auckland. The infrastructure pipeline shows there are around 800 projects being delivered in Auckland, with a further 100 projects in procurement that will begin work shortly, including a couple of major transport projects in South Auckland that I know the member will be interested in, alongside his colleagues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df23ed9a7102406f9899558fb3841582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226096120220e347dd8f6143e1ee480b71\u0022\u003EDr Carlos Cheung\u003C/span\u003E: Is the national infrastructure pipeline growing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226594a6e08f3b421bb1fdd47a86625643\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, indeed it is. We\u2019re looking forward to seeing it grow further as we address our infrastructure deficit. We\u2019re looking forward to the publication, in the new year, of the National Infrastructure Plan currently under way and under development by the Infrastructure Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228b044f3d8b284ac7b8af77ac2b4c5af3\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022002041ee93e94d75a55bbf80fb803f27\u0022 data-id=\u0022794701a5bcdf443fbd8a4260897b7b8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022002041ee93e94d75a55bbf80fb803f27\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022794701a5bcdf443fbd8a4260897b7b8b\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: E tautoko ana ia i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero me ng\u0101 mahi katoa a t\u014Dna K\u0101wanatanga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022002041ee93e94d75a55bbf80fb803f27\u0022\u003E[Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa9994a8bb25424784ed963768ed2a72\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa9994a8bb25424784ed963768ed2a72\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022002041ee93e94d75a55bbf80fb803f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228971d0ba74a84799b5f2c67d62643b6c\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by the statement made by his Minister of Climate Change at COP-25 today that \u201CWe must keep 1.5 alive, Mr President, and New Zealand is committed.\u201D, and, if so, is he aware that with every action his Government takes to increase our domestic emissions, we will be required to pay more to other countries to reduce their emissions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022631cdf26a1c14cd080bbcb56e552b5c8\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first leg of the question, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022002041ee93e94d75a55bbf80fb803f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d69630b749747ee8f1cc4f4f5e58f3d\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister requested, or been provided with, any estimate on the cost of offshore mitigation, which is becoming increasingly necessary to meet our nationally determined contributions (NDCs), as a result of Government decisions to enable more domestic emissions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef540b74de324c6b99f872d5c80dc5a8\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as I said to the member yesterday, we know that NDC target is tough, but we are doing everything we can to meet that goal, and, importantly, we\u2019re prioritising domestic action to do so. But, as I said, we\u2019re not going to send billions of dollars overseas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022002041ee93e94d75a55bbf80fb803f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4b2ea69dcd04d7ea3e18ca98f2e081a\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Prime Minister not requested information on the potential multi-billion dollar cost of meeting our nationally determined contribution, which he has previously said he is committed to? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238cf5fc43d7a473b92ef13e550561782\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we\u2019re doing everything we can to meet that. We\u2019ll continue to do so. That\u2019s why we\u2019re taking domestic action to do so, but, importantly we look at our emissions budgets\u2014one and two\u2014we look at our emissions reductions plan, we look at our track in progress towards net zero 2050, and we\u2019re comfortable with the progress we\u2019re making. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022002041ee93e94d75a55bbf80fb803f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5e0e62171e241d48bf1847c95238e98\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by the statement made by his Minister of Climate Change at COP today that \u201CWe are committed to transparency arrangements.\u201D, and, if so, when will he be transparent with New Zealanders about our potential $24\u00A0billion offshore liability, by recording it in Crown accounts? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fecc5e653ff740c59fccd2791e0083a8\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I want to reassure the member and all New Zealanders that we will just simply not be spending billions of dollars and sending it offshore. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022002041ee93e94d75a55bbf80fb803f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228513ca4e4b7e4e318f9393beedc90a04\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Prime Minister then commit to transparency and accountability by ensuring that that constructive liability under the Paris Agreement nationally determined contributions is recorded on Crown accounts in May next year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200ceb566d07e4c1a859174c3e7804ffe\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, again, we have a series of mechanisms in place to make sure that we\u2019re delivering on our net zero 2050 goal. That\u2019s what we\u2019re very focused around. As I said yesterday\u2014I keep saying to the member; I don\u2019t know how many more ways there are to say it\u2014we\u2019re going to give it a good go. But I just want to reassure New Zealanders that we are not sending billions of dollars offshore, and we\u2019re not sending jobs offshore, either. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528134adfa6c4ba1a72e2cdf9c07bd9e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259bb233a5bfc434ca247f5ee351fac14\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm that the reference to a constructive liability is actually mythology and there is no legal, enforceable duty that can be imposed on New Zealand to send $24\u00A0billion to the Congo in some green, fanciful pursuit? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ca9d6986c4f45e2a3ba87f8df2c142f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: That is correct, and I just want to say to the member: we are very focused on delivering net zero 2050. Our plan, which is our domestic plan\u2014we\u2019re doing everything we can to take domestic actions\u2014is making sure that we can deliver that, maybe even a bit earlier. That\u2019s a good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528134adfa6c4ba1a72e2cdf9c07bd9e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220611b2c0db9942f38ee6b0ec1481bb38\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Dreamers! Dreamers!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c9009c5cf5494842897c71bb42cfee2a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a91d3efe547a43009beefc91711f3ab7\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t say that about Treasury. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281ebc044a7e14f68a41686670050911b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait, everyone. Those conversations across the House are not to occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002282ba7417c36b425a9ac364feadbeb972\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225dec06e8b9d847bdbf5a51cad169ca1b\u0022 data-id=\u0022774228dd3f9747c5ac0695c2daf2e931\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225dec06e8b9d847bdbf5a51cad169ca1b\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022774228dd3f9747c5ac0695c2daf2e931\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does she agree with Nicola Willis in March 2023 that \u201CNational will take action to get food prices under control once more\u201D; if so, are food prices now higher or lower than October 2024?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022 data-id=\u00225dd71b53484042b98ae2d14876a20bea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225dd71b53484042b98ae2d14876a20bea\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Well, in answer to the first part of the question: yes. In the year to March 2023, when I made that statement, food prices had risen a whopping 12.1\u00A0percent in one year. That, of course, was the highest annual food price increase since 1989. As the member knows, since then, food price inflation has come, in the year to October, down to 4.7\u00A0percent. While that is higher than anyone would like, I will take 4.7\u00A0percent over 12.1\u00A0percent any day of the week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225dec06e8b9d847bdbf5a51cad169ca1b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242e2af5b73f04fc5b3f7c27be6114a5c\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Prime Minister claim last year that food prices were \u201Cfalling really quickly\u201D, when the price of mince is up 18\u00A0percent, lamb 22.6\u00A0percent, and bread is up 52.5\u00A0percent in the last year alone?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220014dcdb80cc45d68283a7f544e1d0d1\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: As the Prime Minister already explained in answer to an earlier question, it is because one of the marked things that has occurred in the economy under this Government is that food price inflation has come down from its record highs. To put that into context for members: in the period from November 2020 to November 2023, just three years, food prices rose a total of 22\u00A0percent. Since November 2023, just shy of two years, they\u2019ve risen a total of 6\u00A0percent. So it is an objective fact that food price inflation is under much better control under this Government than it was under the last.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225dec06e8b9d847bdbf5a51cad169ca1b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d61495dade94ea891b6140fd1e9ae1f\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Why, despite her announcement in March of the \u201Cnext steps in the Government\u2019s mission to deliver better grocery prices for Kiwis\u201D, has the price of cheese increased by 30\u00A0percent, eggs by 18.5\u00A0percent, and butter by 27\u00A0percent, in the last year alone?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc952034f8284949b1fed118343445ef\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I do not wish to patronise the member, but, of course, she will be aware that tradable food items, including particularly dairy items, have been impacted by the strength of global commodity prices. I\u2019ve been advised by Treasury that with export prices recently levelling off, food price inflation is expected to ease next quarter. It is a fact that a lot of food is imported and is also influenced by global markets. According to the UN\u2019s Food and Agriculture Organization, international dairy prices have recently been rising at more than 20 percent a year. The member may also wish to celebrate with me that veges fell by 10.7\u00A0percent in price this month. That is the largest monthly price decrease for veges since November 2021.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225dec06e8b9d847bdbf5a51cad169ca1b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be0eb0cafe474e46bf4f2ed752cde9d5\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she claim in July 2024 that \u201Ccost of living relief is on the way\u201D, when the cost of electricity is up for the 11th month in a row, 11.8\u00A0percent higher than the last year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250f22149fbd64afd9e056db8496c6647\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Because this is the Government that delivered cash to the wallets of every working New Zealander with tax relief, that would have been denied to them by a previous Government\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dc2b1551891420faf338e4e61884b34\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, hang on, stop. There\u2019s interjection and there\u2019s barrage\u2014that\u2019s barrage. Just calm it down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7701a525a8647ae94042c0f668c0c17\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Because we\u2019ve delivered tax relief, we\u2019ve ensured that families with children in early childhood education are able to get up to 40\u00A0percent of their fees rebated, because we\u2019ve ensured that inflation has come back into target, that interest rate reductions have been so significant that it is worth hundreds of dollars a fortnight to many families\u2014that is real cost of living relief.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225dec06e8b9d847bdbf5a51cad169ca1b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022439fd810add44a98bacf94d023a7df9e\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Well, how many families have actually received the full $250 tax cut that was promised by her in 2023?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be3e3c89d4e04e409256e5d354c38400\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m pleased to advise the member that more than 11,000 New Zealand families in the last quarter got a $150 payment out of the FamilyBoost. Now, fortunately, many of those families will have also benefited from the full impact of our tax relief plan, which in some cases also gave them $50 a week. So you add the numbers up\u2014a skill I know that is, you know, a little lacking over there\u2014and you get to $250 a fortnight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225dec06e8b9d847bdbf5a51cad169ca1b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2c17acd327145c2a5888fe6d2c7b472\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: How would she rate her cost of living performance out of 10, and would that be higher or lower than the 3.9 the New Zealand public have given her Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a36293c781e42f7adffed77f25ead3c\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I would describe our work on the cost of living as work that must constantly be in progress. We are not there yet, and anyone who would sit back on their laurels and say they had got that job done would be the wrong person to be a Minister in this Government because we\u2019re a Government that aspires to a lot more for New Zealanders: a faster growing economy, higher incomes, a lower cost of living, more opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229d3dcd5bd97d426fbcd1380aff5e258a\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Tourism and Hospitality\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4137ef6b6b841e2ac62e8c46367ec05\u0022 data-id=\u0022598d299fd3164e26b64ff66bb5781e4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4137ef6b6b841e2ac62e8c46367ec05\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022598d299fd3164e26b64ff66bb5781e4a\u0022\u003EMILES ANDERSON (National\u2014Waitaki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Tourism and Hospitality: What recent reports has she seen on cycle trails in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002215080e7fbe3a4bfc9d4e668dd042447f\u0022 data-id=\u002247a025953e9940d3a76310cc287714e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002215080e7fbe3a4bfc9d4e668dd042447f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247a025953e9940d3a76310cc287714e9\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Tourism and Hospitality):\u003C/span\u003E The 2025 evaluation report for the great rides of New Zealand, released yesterday, shows New Zealand\u2019s 23 great rides are pumping $1.28 billion a year into our local economies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9506767b8374e86a8c57bc591d8eeb2\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002215080e7fbe3a4bfc9d4e668dd042447f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255120f9854804ba7833cb5bbbf6c630d\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: $1.28 billion. The report also shows visitor spending attributed to the great rides jumped 35 percent for the year ending June 2025, compared to the same period in 2021. This is a significant boost for our local tourism market. Riders are spending more on accommodation, food, and hospitality, which is great news for local businesses, jobs, and our economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4137ef6b6b841e2ac62e8c46367ec05\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e9ae7549ddb46b1be84cc65c1a0af80\u0022\u003EMiles Anderson\u003C/span\u003E: What other benefits does the report show?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002215080e7fbe3a4bfc9d4e668dd042447f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229aebb320de49436d96b04ec3912f42cb\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: The report shows that visitor nights in nearby accommodation tallied 4.9 million in the year ending June 2025, which is a 25 percent increase on the 2021 figures. Since being set up by Sir John Key\u2019s National-led Government in 2009, these figures show the appeal of our cycle trails continuing to grow and the real economic benefits they bring to regional communities. Higher spending on accommodation and hospitality goes hand in hand with more people using the trails. We\u2019ve seen over 2.5 million trips recorded for the year ending June 2025, up 18 percent on the 2021 figures. More visitors means more income for local businesses and more job opportunities for Kiwis, and a stronger economy for all of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4137ef6b6b841e2ac62e8c46367ec05\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223512dd09e4ed48058cc8144e734eb55a\u0022\u003EMiles Anderson\u003C/span\u003E: Why are cycle trails important?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002215080e7fbe3a4bfc9d4e668dd042447f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac9e029c62024088a6749297397a855b\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Together, the 23 great rides receive about a million visitors a year, of whom around 20 percent are international visitors. With these numbers expected to grow, maintaining and improving these trails is a must. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve made recent investments into cycle trail infrastructure, including funding two sections on the Mountains to Sea great ride in Ruapehu and extending the Dunedin Tunnels Trail. We are committed to ensuring that our great rides continue to attract visitors and deliver significant economic benefit so people can keep enjoying the unique experience and landscapes, pedalling throughout New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4137ef6b6b841e2ac62e8c46367ec05\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bd7a72fa4f94ba89aa03e7975a36ef9\u0022\u003EMiles Anderson\u003C/span\u003E: How will more international visitors support economic growth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002215080e7fbe3a4bfc9d4e668dd042447f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d23536b70d914a3f841e5992a75084a1\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: We know the benefits a thriving tourism and hospitality sector brings to our economy, as tourism directly supports nearly 200,000 jobs and contributes $44 billion to the economy. The data shows that our great rides are growing in popularity, both with international visitors and with Kiwis. We want to ensure that there is greater regional dispersal of visitors, and the great rides are proving very successful in doing this. Our Government is fully committed to supporting the regions to thrive, including by getting more visitors to New Zealand to experience all that we have on offer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bd795d348c8a42949b07b55b29ca2024\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Environment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022 data-id=\u00225e6d80bd353c41de8393ec6da690460e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e6d80bd353c41de8393ec6da690460e\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister for the Environment: How many jobs addressing wilding conifers did Jobs for Nature fund over the course of the programme, and how many roles will be lost when funding is discontinued?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002282e454b54912449789c780bc40f1c715\u0022 data-id=\u0022f46e340e79fc433e897bc841ce42e5b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002282e454b54912449789c780bc40f1c715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f46e340e79fc433e897bc841ce42e5b8\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m advised that 3,125 temporary positions were created as a result of Jobs for Nature funding for wilding pine control. The previous Government\u2019s $1.2 billion make-work scheme was a time-limited, COVID-era measure, and cost taxpayers $77 per hour of work created. However, we are carrying on with the wilding conifer control programme and have actually maintained funding at a slightly higher rate than Labour\u2019s 2023/24 Budget, but we\u2019re also being careful with where we spend our hard-earned money, ensuring taxpayers get value for money. I\u2019d also add that funding for wilding conifer control under the Jobs for Nature banner actually ended in Budget 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258df02399c4544edab83f14203be8fae\u0022\u003EScott Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that Jobs for Nature funding for wilding pines and conifers has significant value by tackling a major ecological issue and providing meaningful employment for people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002282e454b54912449789c780bc40f1c715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acbd215e2cf84cadaa4c724bd525a2df\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as I\u2019ve said, we\u2019ve carried on with that funding. We\u2019ve managed to find additional funding in the last year for wilding conifer control, and so we obviously wouldn\u2019t carry on funding if it wasn\u2019t working well. That\u2019s what we\u2019re doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fec70b69fa2240b0be7da1e18cc2bd8b\u0022\u003EScott Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept that some of our regions and rural communities are dealing with significant environmental issues like wilding pines and conifers, and that addressing these problems with programmes like Jobs for Nature provides meaningful employment for people in rural communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002282e454b54912449789c780bc40f1c715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223401b7849bc04d4cb1fec991b51eb9f0\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD\u003C/span\u003E: One thing we\u2019re not interested in doing is make-work schemes. Where we\u2019ve got a problem and an issue that needs addressing, we\u2019ll address it. It doesn\u2019t mean you have to spend lots of money to create a job to solve a problem. For example, for wilding conifers, one thing we could do is open up conservation land that was previously grazed to grazing again. That would actually generate revenue and actually control some of these wilding pines, at very little cost to the Government. We don\u2019t have to employ sheep.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022320c30f8f8e948419f661aae956561f1\u0022\u003EScott Willis\u003C/span\u003E: What is his response to Federated Farmers of New Zealand spokesperson Richard Dawkins, who said that wilding pines posed an \u201Cecological crisis\u201D, such as through the increasing risk of wildfire, and that while the Government\u2019s new funding was welcome, it \u201Cfalls well short of what\u2019s needed\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002282e454b54912449789c780bc40f1c715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225264bc9096e646969cabc89b02b2bdb7\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD\u003C/span\u003E: I actually had a beer with Richard last night, so we discussed many things on this topic, but what I would say is that we have carried on with the funding. We are trying to ensure that we do it at a much smarter and a more efficient rate. As I said, grazing is a tool that needs to be utilised; using fire\u2014again, a cheap way of getting on control. And, of course, where we\u2019ve managed to find savings, we\u2019ve invested them into this programme. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u00225d1cead7af014c24806cdbfa06e3a14c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d1cead7af014c24806cdbfa06e3a14c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019ll be no discussion or talk across the House while a question is being asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288ceb83b14564340b4b982c269178194\u0022\u003EScott Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Would he describe the 16,000 jobs and the billions in environmental and economic benefits from the Jobs for Nature programme a success; if so, why are there no plans to renew the programme to continue the success?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002282e454b54912449789c780bc40f1c715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d6e524249c14ae28bdbf1284addb348\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD\u003C/span\u003E: The Jobs for Nature programme was always a time-limited, COVID-era response. It was never intended to be permanent. That is how it was always set up, and it\u2019s come to an end, as it was supposed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b8bfce92119f490698399e502f776827\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002210f9c4ee34684669818ffc6d38c110d3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea655573a9364a86b83b4b5fa04f4f4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002210f9c4ee34684669818ffc6d38c110d3\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea655573a9364a86b83b4b5fa04f4f4f\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What actions, if any, were taken to mitigate multiple clinical portals in Central and Te Manawa Taki regions described in Health New Zealand document HNZ00092045, and when were these actions taken?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220315e8a77378440c9504cc96d048ad32\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the member, I\u2019ve been informed that the answer to this question may be slightly longer due to the complexity of the question itself\u2014although it\u2019d be hard to be longer than some of the answers given today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022 data-id=\u0022e977cbf29cf3421385931dc112f55e9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e977cbf29cf3421385931dc112f55e9a\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Our Government is focused on ensuring New Zealanders receive the care they need. That is why, as part of our record investment in health, Health New Zealand is developing a 10-year digital investment plan to deliver a modern, integrated digital health system that will put patients first. The action referenced by the member was to prioritise investment for consolidation of clinical portals. I\u2019m advised by Health New Zealand that funding has been prioritised and that work has commenced this year. In the Midland region, a core clinicals road map has been developed that includes consolidation of clinical portals and access to diagnostic results. In the Central region, investment has been made in single clinical portal - improvements as well as improving access to diagnostic results and replacing paper-based hospital referrals. The current environment is a complex mix of multiple systems and processes. There are, in fact, over 6,000 data and digital systems at Health New Zealand\u2014approximately one for every 15 staff members. That is the result of years of under-investment and complexity which will take time to fix, but we are absolutely committed to providing clinicians with the modern, effective digital tools that they require.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002210f9c4ee34684669818ffc6d38c110d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223df9bac2283e4edfb283db8fb58254ff\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: When he said in March that he had asked Health New Zealand to re-look at its proposal to cut data and digital staff and projects, how did he scrutinise the proposal to build a single clinical portal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f46ba6f11c3e46bb998a49dcf2b20cfd\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: There was advice provided to me back in March. There is a digital investment plan under development by Health New Zealand. They continue to invest in our data and digital systems at Health New Zealand, knowing how important that is to clinicians and patients to ensure they get the timely access to healthcare that they need. But as I said in the primary answer, there are thousands of data and digital systems at Health New Zealand. That has not happened overnight and it is going to take time to fix it. The previous Government thought they could simply amalgamate 20 district health boards, put a nice new letterhead on top, and say the job was done. Actually, we\u2019re doing the hard work of making sure we fix the systems that are required, getting the systems in place. That\u2019s the hard job; that\u2019s what we\u2019re doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002210f9c4ee34684669818ffc6d38c110d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7103bef2f254e8fbbb04ec5bcfe14e5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Will he take responsibility for failed software initiated under his tenure that crashes frequently, delays patient care, is unsafe, and will now take months to fix?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd30543d685447be93b684bd6d470f51\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I imagine she\u2019s referring to the issues at Wellington Hospital, and there is a significant amount of work under way to address that. Recent fixes have improved patient search times. There is a multidisciplinary team being established that is dedicated to identifying and resolving these issues. The vendor is involved in making sure they resolve their issues. Health New Zealand is investigating and resolving access performance bottlenecks in real time and has infrastructure investment under way; it\u2019s looking to accelerate parts of this work to free capacity and improve performance. Health New Zealand is also replacing PCs and hardware where it is identified as a contributing factor. I can assure the House there\u2019s a significant amount of work to address those challenges. As I would say, it\u2019s very easy to amalgamate the DHBs and put a new letterhead on top. It\u2019s much harder to actually do the hard work of bringing the system together. That\u2019s the work we\u2019re doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002210f9c4ee34684669818ffc6d38c110d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e427ad52d2a24e1b94a5bf03afb1b1d9\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Why won\u2019t he take responsibility for a failure under his tenure that led to a software programme that means people cannot be looked after now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea89711bd59743098cac80f560ec78c0\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: We are addressing the issues as they arise. If we\u2019re going to talk about responsibility, maybe she would like to take responsibility for the $100\u00A0million\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d264dd4aa73f4d54acf9a4370bcc19e6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. No, no, no, no\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd46b7f664c242bda9f4d8b25a6669b9\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that she cut from digital when she was Minister of Health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b620176a39d646c5a4e88ecd35bc26e2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is going to lose a question today if the attacks on the Opposition continue. Carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002210f9c4ee34684669818ffc6d38c110d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be650be8e74a48dea179d9797f3b12e3\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: When his Government cut $330 million in funding from Health New Zealand digital, along with 400 staff, and 132 IT projects, what did he think would happen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebfbae31efaa4b5994aedf42f1449a0a\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019d ask the previous Minister what she thought would happen when she cut $56 million of operating costs and $50 million of capital\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b44b0495ba141c5b8447f8f94d31ddb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry\u2014sorry. Sit down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d7a6c5fe41b4457b8ecabc64fb2d9ff\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in the 2023 Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f36fb7dad5e641b0a6de094188c4cecf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You can\u2019t ask that. Try again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002210f9c4ee34684669818ffc6d38c110d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203ece38849ea469183a472c059f3cc24\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Do I get a repeat of the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224760536cc9f44ae18d8ca3f980a78183\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah\u2014or a different one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002210f9c4ee34684669818ffc6d38c110d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ee730cccece465482d99f496ce92c0c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: When his Government cut $330 million in funding from Health New Zealand digital, along with 400 staff, and over 132 IT projects, what did he think would happen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249d55d93035948cfa4c311b0fc027ef5\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, this Government is investing a record $16.68 billion additional over three Budgets into Health New Zealand. We are focused on fixing the problems in front of us, but the reality is, when you\u2019ve got a system where the last Government thought you could amalgamate 20 DHBs and put a new letterhead on top\u2014what did they think would happen? We\u2019re focused on fixing the problems in our health systems, reducing wait-lists, improving the system for patients and clinicians, while they let the system fall apart under their watch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002210f9c4ee34684669818ffc6d38c110d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d629567c5c445019c3ce1b0b7e59202\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister understand that surgeons need quick access to patient results because, unlike National Ministers, they need to see what they\u2019re cutting before they operate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226964ceee24694f968840cf791cbeabc3\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that might sound very funny and be a good social media clip, but the reality is that what we\u2019re focused on is actually fixing the broken system that the last Government left behind\u2014their botched merger, where they thought they could put 20 DHBs together and put a new letterhead on top and say, \u201CJob done.\u201D Actually, we\u2019re doing the hard work\u2014we\u2019re doing the hard work required to reduce waiting times for patients and improve access for New Zealanders so that all New Zealanders can get the timely, quality access to healthcare that New Zealanders need and deserve\u2014something they forgot when they focused on bureaucracy over patients.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022508ad36322de41b495a3203f56d02433\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022 data-id=\u0022485b6c5c37164f478dab262a0c8b9aa3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022485b6c5c37164f478dab262a0c8b9aa3\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Housing: What recent announcement has he made about Rotorua?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bab007e25fff4471a1460f7b5378fc2f\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4820d0bd98e46088502ed4da02c37ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bab007e25fff4471a1460f7b5378fc2f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4820d0bd98e46088502ed4da02c37ae\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA (Associate Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to announce that contracted emergency housing in Rotorua has, effectively, ended with the placement of the last household from CEH\u2014contracted emergency housing\u2014into more permanent accommodation. The number of households in contracted emergency housing has fallen from its peak of over 240 households across 13 motels\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f8a7db13cd84a0a82ebfe9222bba902\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hold on\u2014wait\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528134adfa6c4ba1a72e2cdf9c07bd9e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298992549d2d84b39960792299bd394ae\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Out with the gangs\u2014out with the gangs!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226eb58c16187b46069745b764ada06cc8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait. That\u2019s utterly ridiculous. You may as well just sit down and not bother, because no one appears to want to hear what you\u2019re saying\u2014particularly from your own side. Carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bab007e25fff4471a1460f7b5378fc2f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f72b1a95fa7a4815ba90633e7aeaddc9\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: The number of households in contracted emergency housing in Rotorua has fallen from its peak of over 240 households across 13 motels, prior to 2023, down to zero today. With the last wh\u0101nau rehoused, the remaining contracted emergency housing motels are now preparing to return to commercial use and supporting the tourism aspirations that the city, the Government, and particularly Minister Upston share.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b2bdd3316d04b829cf0da1e26943d3a\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ae9662c914d481a9033c9d955d51bfa\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a moment. You just need to calm it down slightly. The constant, constant comment is not an interjection; it\u2019s a barrage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e26f32e8487c4110bb6975159cb99585\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: How were the emergency housing contracts brought to an end earlier than their original December timeline?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bab007e25fff4471a1460f7b5378fc2f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce86422ef02f4045a3f201329d36f809\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: In spring 2023, the Hon Todd McClay\u2014hard-working Rotorua MP\u2014and I committed to close the contracted emergency housing by December 2025. In December 2024, I advised that all contracted emergency housing in Rotorua would be set to close by December 2025. This exit has been achieved a month ahead of schedule. The Government delivers on its promises and, importantly, with and alongside council, iwi, agencies, and providers\u2014mahi tahi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcb8ee49b18a43cd8c0f39af6a123a70\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: What other housing actions has the Government delivered for Rotorua, alongside ending emergency housing motels?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bab007e25fff4471a1460f7b5378fc2f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ab8338e590a4c46866274586d47c668\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: The Government continues to invest in housing in Rotorua and has a strong pipeline of new housing places, including the 150 social housing places in Rotorua, announced as part of Budget 2024 by the Minister of Finance; 100 new K\u0101inga Ora homes that are proposed to be delivered over the next year; and 120 or so homes by iwi providers to be delivered. Of course, the Prime Minister, Minister McClay, and I attended Ng\u0101ti Whakau\u0113 this year up at Wharenui Road, ongoing work alongside Te Pokap\u016B. We are delivering housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250a3bfd8eb1d41e7952c08aef295ada3\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: How does this result fit into the wider work the Government is doing to fix emergency housing across New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bab007e25fff4471a1460f7b5378fc2f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220833f5fca1ed44e38d48101d53ed50bc\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: This is part of the Going for Housing Growth that Minister Bishop has been articulating so well over the last couple of years. The community housing provision of 1,500 homes announced in Budget 2024; hundreds of homes that have been procured and collaborated alongside iwi and M\u0101ori providers in places like Ohakune, Te Tair\u0101whiti, Hopuhopu, and Waikato, and indeed other far-flung places in New Zealand. Of course, there have been recent announcements about continuing to support Housing First and transitional housing. This Government is doing the business, and we will not be responsible for a motel and hotel generation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002295278630b36647bcb3ddf8f80b266fdb\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022602\u0022 data-id=\u002238f10dab5db645438a1827e49e23db03\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022602\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238f10dab5db645438a1827e49e23db03\u0022\u003EORIINI KAIPARA (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014T\u0101maki Makaurau)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: Does he stand by the Government\u2019s proposed changes to the National Policy Statement on Urban Development? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022 data-id=\u00228c3c99c8d6b44c4182d0891e1e919295\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c3c99c8d6b44c4182d0891e1e919295\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. Those proposed changes were published in July last year, and, clearly, they will undergo some changes as we sync them into the new planning system, which we will unveil shortly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e3bf31f4d9c4ba2afbcd3979ec8b2af\u0022\u003EOriini Kaipara\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree that upholding Treaty settlements in Plan Change (PC) 120 also means upholding several co-governance arrangements across T\u0101maki-makau-rau; and, if not, can he name the specific co-governance arrangements which do not apply? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226a0c27631a64b3ea9803901cf4d1ead\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, PC 120 is a wee way away from the original primary, but, generally, yes. I\u2019m advised that the Plan Change 120 that the member is referring to has followed a robust statutory process so far, and if the member thinks that it hasn\u2019t, I invite her to write to me and explain why. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc8a7541e67e40b5aa5c93452ded4098\u0022\u003EOriini Kaipara\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree that \u201Cte tino rangatiratanga o \u014D r\u0101tou k\u0101inga me o r\u0101tou taonga katoa\u201D [\u201Cthe sovereignty over their estates and all of their properties\u201D], described in article 2 of Te Tiriti o Waitangi, also applies to urup\u0101 and w\u0101hi tapu? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c240d90355054757b3c0092fe47d09ff\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as the member knows, article 2 of the Treaty is not incorporated into New Zealand law, and so I\u2019m not going to give a jurisprudential discussion around that. I\u2019m obliged, as Minister, to follow the law and we seek to do that, and councils in relation to their discharge of obligations are obliged to follow the operative provision at the moment, which is the Resource Management Act and national direction underneath it. I\u2019m satisfied that that is the case at the moment, but if the member has evidence to the contrary, I\u2019m happy to hear it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022675d0cea91c641adb57574cc1e8d043f\u0022\u003EOriini Kaipara\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister provide assurances to this House, to the public, and to ng\u0101 mana whenua o T\u0101maki-makau-rau that urup\u0101 and w\u0101hi tapu in areas targeted for upzoning and high-density housing will not be affected by proposed changes in PC 120? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b7335acc20e4d39b69806be6470f5a6\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not trying avoid the question, but if the member wants specific questions about a specific matter like PC 120, I\u2019d invite her to put that on primary notice so that I can come prepared to answer those questions. I don\u2019t have enough information to answer that coherently, because I am not responsible for the detailed elements of that plan. If the member wants detailed answers to that, she should have put that on notice, and she didn\u2019t. So the short answer is that I don\u2019t know, but if the member doesn\u2019t think that the operative provisions are working as intended, she should write to me and I will investigate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bab007e25fff4471a1460f7b5378fc2f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022090faa4722ff467f8d0eacfc8d678c7b\u0022\u003EHon Tama Potaka\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister stand by the immense work\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc1b55d862564dfc82731743e3dd421d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on\u2014wait. No noise, thank you, from the front bench over there\u2014and over there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bab007e25fff4471a1460f7b5378fc2f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292586dd2139e42a1a78c23cf23be022f\u0022\u003EHon Tama Potaka\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister stand by the immense work undertaken by the Government on the national papak\u0101inga standard and also the granny flat standard that will support M\u0101ori housing aspirations, as well as the significant M\u0101ori housing development across Auckland, in places like \u014Cwairaka, Carrington, Panmure, and elsewhere for M\u0101ori and all New Zealanders? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d195997dc2b40dabfcaa06fd76ad066\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, indeed, I\u2019m very proud in particular of the papak\u0101inga work. Soon there will be a national environmental standard on papak\u0101inga, which will slot into district plans around the country, making it far easier for iwi to use their whenua in the development of papak\u0101inga. I\u2019m also proud of the work that the Land for Housing programme has done, working with post-settlement iwi and other groups in Auckland, and I\u2019m pleased to pick up on the work that the previous Government did in relation to the Carrington development, which the member mentioned, in particular. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002240e5649619404f2c80ddb4dd8ea03662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8ac4d78063a436998e001e6860cc6b0\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank you. The Minister is responsible for the Fast-track Approvals Amendment Bill, which is overseeing w\u0101hi tapu changes. It is expected that the Minister arrives here with the details, given that there\u2019s only been 11 days for that bill to receive submitters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022191cd46f47a644c58937231056b52970\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that might be the expectation that the member has, but it\u2019s unreasonable, given the primary question that was set down on the sheet today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7913a753a5840a9832d485290ed8f85\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224189a045279428980b286b37902ec04\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ve just ruled on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022070354c6b59f4972ad2d0f725daa7a36\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s primary\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221186ef3bd07043a4bc67367016f0e6e0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on, I\u2019ve just ruled on it, thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a794e36dfd44ba4948a2e0d4d5ce05f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s nothing to do with fast track. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fa968f4e7c749d6a3fdf83a50d68b9e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Good. Question No. 12\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528134adfa6c4ba1a72e2cdf9c07bd9e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c91060ab9f68463390fcd57d73cadc96\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af7f18ecaabd4db695690e9575a5bc41\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, we\u2019re moving on to question No. 12. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528134adfa6c4ba1a72e2cdf9c07bd9e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f015f41f5a3a43a58ecb7df1a23fdc77\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a36447ee4219407d9503f6df4b4029a0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I know you want to ask a supplementary, but you\u2019ve run out of them for today. Question No. 12, Tangi Utikere. [Interruption] When the House is ready\u2014your own side\u2014to give you a bit of respect, you may ask a question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229149d96c2b9147b79ae00a96267459c3\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022 data-id=\u0022f30e02a78eb34500b1392c8ecbe38ebf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f30e02a78eb34500b1392c8ecbe38ebf\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: On what date, if any, did he make a specific request to the Cabinet Office for conflict-of-interest advice relating to the city link bridge funding transfer, separate from his regular six-monthly conflict reviews, and what was that advice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022 data-id=\u0022382fe74bd4c7418faa492662313dbd6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022382fe74bd4c7418faa492662313dbd6c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E I did not make a specific request to the Cabinet Office for conflict-of-interest advice relating to the city link bridge decision. Shortly after my appointment as Minister of Transport, I received advice from the Cabinet Office that I could make decisions on the Melling interchange as Minister, putting aside my role as MP. I acted in accordance with that advice in making the city link bridge decision and didn\u2019t consider I needed further advice from the Cabinet Office. I am confident that I acted in accordance with Cabinet Manual guidance. For example, there is precedent for Infrastructure Acceleration Fund funding variations. As I said to the House yesterday, the Minister of Finance and I agreed to vary a funding agreement for Hamilton City Council, swapping $31.5 million of funding from a bridge to a water project. In this instance, Hutt City Council asked to vary their agreement because they identified a better value for money solution for their stormwater project\u2014wanted to use the savings to fund a walking/cycling bridge, as the member knows.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8a8601328004583b630cc848d514f2b\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Did he disclose to officials that the city link bridge was a project he campaigned on, and, if so, how was that information recorded and assessed in the subsequent decision-making process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8d811039b484a2bb4d93f23a714702b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as I\u2019ve just said to the member, shortly after my appointment as Minister of Transport I received advice from the Cabinet Office that I could make decisions on the Melling interchange as Minister, leaving aside my role as the MP for Hutt South.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c418fa168ba4b3695c23048481cccc8\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Were any concerns raised about his potential conflict of interest in the reallocation of K\u0101inga Ora funding, and, if so, by whom?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226a6a87a48814e6aafa375d56111c827\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284af84183a69445a9a5494ff45f6c5ac\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Did he notify either the Cabinet Office, the Cabinet secretary, or the Prime Minister of any perceived or real conflict prior to signing off on the reallocation; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222295453c2d944dd19e7364eb1bd9b80b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, all I can do is repeat the answer I gave in relation to the primary, which is: I became Minister of Transport early in 2025 and there was a meeting\u2014as there always is when there\u2019s a reshuffle and Ministers take their portfolios\u2014and I received advice from the Cabinet Office that I could make decisions in relation to the Melling interchange as Minister. I\u2019ve acted in accordance with that advice and I\u2019m confident I\u2019ve acted in accordance with the Cabinet Manual.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022311eba0f075e448993bb59225ea956bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220ccb87b207647a782a4daf719d0620d\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Sir, we have a situation here that this is the second day where questions of this nature have been asked. Yesterday we covered where, as asked as Minister of Transport, those questions should go to him as Minister of Housing. We put this question in to the Minister of Transport and the Government transferred it to Minister of Housing. That\u2019s all good. But now we have a situation where the Minister is answering questions as Minister of Housing saying that when he became Minister of Transport, he declared things. Given the nature of this question, I think it\u2019s really important that the Minister is very clear in addressing this question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df361ed9b8d643d9bd269ed69dbb5a7c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, speaking to the point of order. We transferred the question to housing essentially for completeness, because that is under the portfolio where that decision was made. But ministerial portfolios in relation to these\u2014the portfolio in relation to the Cabinet Manual is essentially agnostic as to the portfolio; it\u2019s about being a Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ab2493576464de9b21baeed03237aba\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Did he comply fully with Cabinet Manual rule 2.76, including the requirement to declare any conflict of interest, have that declaration recorded, and transfer responsibility for the matter to another Minister; if so, what evidence exists to show that that was recorded to follow those courses of action?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f167ec77617451884cbf12f89202f8e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, as I\u2019ve said to the member a couple of times now, I\u2019m confident I acted in accordance with the Cabinet Manual, and I\u2019ve met with the Cabinet Office to discuss it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224221fba58d6844cd88ccfb03c227cc4c\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: How can he maintain that his handling of the funding transfer met the required ministerial standards when he disclosed nothing, sought no independent advice as to conflict, and declined to delegate this decision?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7910957c66b49528dea9d8388ef5847\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Ministers don\u2019t seek independent legal advice in relation to these matters. They seek advice from the Cabinet Office, which is what happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6c159ee1b114fdbabe9346063c88c09\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6c159ee1b114fdbabe9346063c88c09\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That concludes oral questions. Members leaving the House are to do so very quietly. I declare the House in committee for further consideration of the Education and Training (Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022966068e419cf44c9af3b0502a1960a77\u0022\u003EEducation and Training (Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f48f21b7dd424cd8b8e2d0eed466ead3\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000619\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225fcc8ada874e4a49b2f5b21ff76e3f9b\u0022\u003EPart 1 Amendments to principal Act, and Schedule 1 (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002202c9be2ab8a84f2086ee721f75a90b4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202c9be2ab8a84f2086ee721f75a90b4c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Education and Training (Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill. When we were considering this bill earlier today, we were debating Part 1, so, once again, the question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022 data-id=\u00220487f831814549b0ba583569e2659fd9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220487f831814549b0ba583569e2659fd9\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ve been listening very carefully to the Minister\u2019s responses, and I\u2019m sure you have been following along behind the scenes. I know that we have interrogated a bit on clause 5, so we are coming shortly to the end of those questions. I do just want to clarify for this committee that when I referred to the inclusion of or reference to Te Tiriti o Waitangi in an earlier section, I think the Minister misheard me as wanting a definition. It was actually a question around why Te Tiriti was not included. It was not to define it. I just thought I\u2019d put that on the record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EI have been listening to the Minister\u2019s answers, and I just want to seek clarification, please, on some of the answers that he gave to the Green MP Lawrence Xu-Nan regarding section 14. I guess I\u2019ll frame it like this so that it\u2019s really clear for the Minister: we\u2019ve got subsection (a) and subsection (b) both as purposes, and he gave some answers around the common understanding of why a labour market rationale should be supported. When we look at the submissions from some of the big hitters in the sector, they don\u2019t agree with the Minister\u2019s interpretation of labour market forces being as valid as section 14(a), which is around educational outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EReally, what I\u2019m looking at in section 14 is the word \u201Cand\u201D, which separates subsections (a) and (b), and whether the Minister sees these as complementary or whether they are mutually exclusive, because if we look at the submission from Kindergartens Aotearoa, they critique it. They say, on page 3 of their submission: \u201CThe purpose is narrowed and the interests of children are no longer the primary focus.\u201D If we look at the Office of Early Childhood Education (OECE), they say that the bill\u2019s \u201Cpurpose, objectives, and guiding principles \u2026 [in Part 1 undermine] children\u2019s rights\u201D and position early childhood education (ECE) as labour market support. If we look at Montessori Aotearoa New Zealand, in their submission they said that there is a \u201CRisk that an emphasis on supporting parental workforce participation may overshadow quality improvement goals.\u201D That is in the section under \u201CKey Risks\u201D in their submission. Finally, under the ECE Parents\u2019 Council Aotearoa, they have said: \u201CBy embedding workforce participation as a core purpose, the bill shifts ECE away from child development and learning, and family support.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EMy specific questions on this: the first one is around whether the Minister believes that the word \u201Cand\u201D is sustainable there, or whether that replaced by the word \u201Cor\u201D, and what would that mean for the director? In effect, that is what this bill is doing. Is there a hierarchy in those two parts, subsections (a) and (b)? If they do not prioritise the child\u2019s learning, then can he, please, let us know that on the record\u2014or is he saying that children\u2019s learning is still prioritised? In which case, it would be really important to have that on the Hansard so that there can be some kind of accountability to the director in their interpretation of that purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThe second question is around what evidence the Minister has\u2014he still hasn\u2019t produced any to support his contention around this kind of common understanding that parents and caregivers want to participate in the labour market. While I accept the contention, as the basis of a policy that is being put into the purpose of Part 2, I\u2019d like to know what evidence the Minister has for that, because he still hasn\u2019t given us the evidence from the sector to say that that is what the sector itself wants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThe other question I have is around whether he agrees with his Minister of Education that all children learn the same way\u2014I have heard the Minister of Education say, in this House, that all children learn the same way\u2014and the reason I ask that is because of the failure to have a Te Tiriti reference in there. If that is his contention\u2014and I refer to his comment before lunch that Te Tiriti was, in his words, \u201Cextraneous\u201D or one of the extraneous matters, and that was a word that he did use\u2014then where is his evidence that all children learn the same way? If there isn\u2019t that, how will he make sure that M\u0101ori children are able to get the same learning outcomes? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EI still have just a couple more questions on this, and this is really bringing us to the end, I think, of Labour\u2019s questions on this clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3dc67ee97d84e19b0bd32ba5d59b466\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, perhaps the member could ask those couple of questions now if you\u2019re ready to take another call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a4116a40f7c4900ab3dbf0312caa685\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: Sure, and then\u2014thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u00228198d89c532e4455af5bb4484df77ca1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228198d89c532e4455af5bb4484df77ca1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, seeing as she hasn\u2019t taken another call\u2014the question of whether or not parents and caregivers pay to send their children to early childhood education centres, with one of their goals being to go and work, I\u2019ve now addressed this several times. That is one of the reasons parents do it. If anyone wants to dispute that, they can, and the people watching from home can judge for themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EThere was a question, \u201CDo all children learn the same way?\u201D. No, they don\u2019t, but there is, actually, a science of learning where you can make advances by testing hypotheses, seeing what works, and advancing. That is what this Government is committed to and what Erica Stanford, our education Minister, is committed to. The idea that, somehow, the Government thinks that all children are the same\u2014it doesn\u2019t; it just thinks we should use best possible knowledge when it comes to curriculum and pedagogy, which we do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022 data-id=\u0022f582a7c56e804c30afd816dcb7c15502\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f582a7c56e804c30afd816dcb7c15502\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a question on this clause 5, section 14A, \u201CObjectives of Part 2\u201D. Now, I\u2019m not a member of the Education and Workforce Committee that has covered this bill, so forgive me if I\u2019m asking a question that members of the committee already know the answer to, but I don\u2019t. I\u2019m interested in hearing the Minister\u2019s answer to my question with regard to section 14A(e). Throughout the regulatory impact statement, it talks a little bit about the current regulations etc., etc., being somewhat confusing, needing to provide clarity for centres, parents, etc.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022\u003EIn Objectives of Part 2 paragraph (e), where it talks about \u201Cimplementing a licensing and certification system that provides service providers, parents, and caregivers with certainty and clarity, as far as is reasonably practicable, regarding minimum standards for quality services.\u201D, I\u2019d like to know why the wording \u201Cas far as is reasonably practicable\u201D is in there, because surely that doesn\u2019t provide certainty and clarity. Why could it not be without those words, where it just says, \u201Ccertainty and clarity regarding minimum standards for quality services.\u201D? I\u2019m interested to know what \u201Creasonably practicable\u201D means in this particular part. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u002253d88c9994244556a9428676c3341011\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253d88c9994244556a9428676c3341011\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m going to move on to a new clause. I\u2019m going to move on to clause\u00A07, \u201CThe Director of Regulations\u201D. New sections\u00A027A to 27E are a substantial part of this bill regarding the new role that the Minister is creating. I\u2019m going to focus my contribution, this time, on new section\u00A027A, \u201CDirector of Regulation\u201D, and also new section\u00A027B, \u201CFunctions of the Director of Regulations\u201D. To begin with, because this is something that the select committee and also submitters have raised as a part of that, they just want to get clarification from the Minister about whether, in this case, the Director of Regulations would also be overseeing k\u014Dhanga reo and puna reo, as part of their role? If I can get a nod from the Minister\u2014oh, great, thank you, Minister, for that first clarification. In which case, I think that it\u2019s important to bring to the Minister\u2019s attention one of my amendments on new section\u00A027A, which is in clause\u00A07, new subsection\u00A027A(2), after \u201Cexperience and expertise\u201D, to specifically include \u201Cexperience and expertise when it comes to Te Tiriti o Waitangi\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ENow, this is not simply us wanting to include Te Tiriti for the sake of including Te Tiriti but actually offers a very reasonable explanation for why that is important for the Director of Regulations, because if the Director of Regulations does indeed\u2014like the Minister has just nodded to and acknowledged\u2014have oversight over k\u014Dhanga reo and puna reo without any understanding or background in Te Tiriti, that would, potentially, mean that they can\u2019t really perform their duty or power or functions as effectively as they ought to when they are looking at M\u0101ori-medium early childhood education (ECE) services. I want to check with the Minister, first and foremost, if that is something that he would consider under new section\u00A027A.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ENow, in terms of new section\u00A027B, we\u2019re looking at two main areas: we\u2019re looking at the \u201CStatutorily independent functions\u201D of the Director of Regulations, but also at \u201COther functions\u201D. I want to check with the Minister from an \u201COther functions\u201D perspective. There are a number of things in here that, I think, seem odd, unless the Minister thinks that paragraph (j) does, in fact, cover it. But things like, for example, new section 27B(g)(iii)\u2014\u201Cincidents at licensed early childhood services and certified playgroups.\u201D\u2014one would assume that when it comes to incidents, particularly critical incidents, it is important for the relevant health and safety agency\u2014for example, Worksafe\u2014to also be involved as a part of that. Despite the fact that the Director of Regulations may have certain powers and functions, there are specific requirements, as the Minister may understand, in terms of the Health and Safety at Work Act, but there are also relevant regulations as a part of that, in terms of the health and safety of children in an ECE service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI know that the Minister, specifically, wants to talk about synthesising or distilling some of the regulatory environment, but it is important for the committee to also recognise the fact that the deregulations that we\u2019re seeing across the Ditch, in Australia, have led to more critical incidents in ECE centres, as well as a growing trend of unsavoury behaviour that we\u2019re seeing in ECE that may eventuate if we do look into distilling or even deregulating. I do want to check, as a starting point, whether the Minister will consider one of my amendments, which is around the fact that when we\u2019re looking at incidents, for example, and critical incidents, in licensed early childhood education certified play groups, the relevant health and safety agency must be involved as a part of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022e73d8b1cf6b74adfa43a90e44b6f9471\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e73d8b1cf6b74adfa43a90e44b6f9471\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Lawrence Xu-Nan has quite correctly pointed out that clause 7 is indeed a bit of a heavy-hitting clause in this bill. Nevertheless, we have skipped over clause 6, and I would just like to ask the Minister some questions about it because clause 6 amends section 22 of the principal Act in relation to records. It effectively puts \u201Cor the Director of Regulation\u201D after \u201Cthe Secretary\u201D, so it expands what information early childhood education services must make available to the director. This is referred to in the regulatory impact statement (RIS) at page 38, but there\u2019s also some real caveats in the RIS around this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EOn page 33, it notes that the regulatory actions could be seen as punitive by the director. It also confirms, again, that there was no consultation with providers on expanded information requirements, and at page 30\u2014and this is probably one worth really getting an understanding of from the Minister\u2014is how this new regime is going to deal with the confusion risks during the transition period. That has been highlighted in the RIS at page 30.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EIf we look at who is going to bear the brunt of this, once again, it\u2019s going to disproportionately affect small, M\u0101ori-medium, and community-based services, so I have a question for the Minister about what advice he received regarding the impact of this particular clause on smaller and M\u0101ori providers. I\u2019d also like to ask the Minister about the Privacy Act implications. Clearly, there is a need for limits on information collection and use. Could the Minister, please, just let us know what rules or protocols will cover this? Will this happen through secondary legislation, and if so, when can we expect to see that, and what will the level of scrutiny of that be? What will the scope of that be, and this is really important given the Opposition\u2019s concerns about the direction of travel, which, in our view, seems to be heading toward a weighting towards privatisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EHow will that data be protected from commercial exploitation? Who will be accountable if there are failures to protect that data, and what are the sanctions? What advice, if any, did he receive about M\u0101ori data sovereignty? That has a different suite of issues and concerns that need to be answered. Also, why were providers not consulted on the new information burden?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThe totality of the question really is: how will the Minister ensure that information-gathering powers will respect privacy and data sovereignty? Will they follow the same regime as the secretary, even though the director\u2019s powers are more extensive? Are the safeguards to be equivalent, are they not there, or are they intended to be proportionate to the extended powers, and where will they sit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThen, when I can come back for another call, we\u2019d really like to go into detail on new sections 27A to 27E, in clause 7, where we have a plethora of questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022d00d4ad178d3491ea0b3d518a80e31f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d00d4ad178d3491ea0b3d518a80e31f8\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. While the Minister\u2019s just getting some advice and also potentially responding to some of my earlier questions, I do want to raise a specific example\u2014and a very recent and topical example\u2014when we\u2019re looking at the functions of the Director of Regulation and what the Minister for Regulation would then think in terms of the interaction between the new Director of Regulation and the existing function. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThe specific example I wanted to address is the recalling of play sand that has asbestos. Currently, that\u2019s going through our schools and also our early childhood centres. The reason I want to address that particular example is that the person who is currently managing that particular incident\u2014that is done by Ministry of Education (MOE); that is currently done by the Deputy Secretary Operations and Integration, and that has a direct line of reporting to the Secretary for Education. But, when you\u2019re looking at the Director of Regulation for early childhood education (ECE), it reports to the secretary, but other deputy directors in the MOE don\u2019t necessarily report to the Director of Regulation, and the Director of Regulation doesn\u2019t necessarily report to the deputy secretaries. I\u2019m assuming that we\u2019re looking at a lateral sort of organisational chart when you\u2019re looking at the function of Director of Regulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EIf the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind walking us through that, in these sort of situations, when you have currently about 90 early learning service centres that need to have the play sand with asbestos recalled and potentially shut\u2014temporarily closed while we assess the situation\u2014how would the Director of Regulation be able to work with this function? Or, alternatively, the Minister may say that that\u2019s actually not the function of the Director of Regulation, and that particular aspect of the operation\u2014integration of the ECEs\u2014still falls within the appropriate deputy secretary within MOE. That is a very topical, I think, example of how this is going to, potentially, play out on who is going to be the person responsible for the ability to address that particular incident.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ENow, in terms of my other tabled amendments, while I\u2019m waiting for the Minister, in terms of some of the Amendment Papers that were already proposed\u2014giving the chance to speak to those\u2014I do want to address another tabled amendment that I\u2019ve got\u2014well, actually, a couple more\u2014and that still is to do with new section 27B. That is that, after new section 27B(k), there should be additional clauses that we\u2019re looking at. Both of them cover, in terms of both our obligation under the United Nations Convention of the Rights of the Child, which I mentioned before\u2014that\u2019s not necessarily a bureaucracy, as something internationally that we genuinely just signed up to and is held accountable for. In that particular case, I\u2019m proposing to the Minister, alongside when we\u2019re looking at \u201C[carrying] out proactive, regular, risk-based monitoring of compliance by service providers with applicable requirements under this Act\u201D\u2014and that is new section 27B(e)\u2014that there should be a separate clause that talks about carrying out proactive and regular monitoring of compliance alongside the Children\u2019s Commissioner against the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI think this is quite an important thing, because also, as the Minister understands, with the passing of the Regulatory Standards Bill, etc., and everything that\u2019s attached to that, and how we can look at things like regulatory impact statements, it\u2019s also prudent to mention that the bill the Minister himself has brought doesn\u2019t actually have a child impact statement attached to it, even though this is probably\u2014arguably\u2014one of the bills that will affect children the most. I think it would have been beneficial for the committee to be able to assess some of the impacts it would have to children through that particular assessment. Those are my few questions for the Minister at this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u002244273e278f594ac8b601608315e13c51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244273e278f594ac8b601608315e13c51\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, for allowing me to take a call on this bill. I wasn\u2019t in the Education and Workforce Committee, so I have been following the conversations with interest. I just have a couple of quick questions for the Associate Minister of Education, looking at what the difference is between the role of the secretary and this new role of a Director of Regulation. I think that\u2019d be really helpful for folks at home to sort of try to understand why there is this extra layer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003ETo support the contributions made by my friend and colleague Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan around the inclusion of Te Tiriti o Waitangi\u2014I support the reasons that he did so, because k\u014Dhanga reo and puna reo have a very specific pedagogy and a specific role to play as well. Getting those answers, I think, would be important\u2014but, just to add to that question as well, around the role of te reo M\u0101ori quality assurance, if I can put it that way, because if you\u2019re going to k\u014Dhanga reo and you\u2019re going to puna reo, it\u2019s going to be all in M\u0101ori. How will that function work in terms of this Director of Regulation? How are they going to assess whether the appropriate standards, whatever, are being met as well? I think that\u2019s a really important question for the Minister to answer. It\u2019s specifically about the quality of te reo M\u0101ori language quality assurance, and also the way that it links to te reo M\u0101ori pedagogy and curriculum as well, because you can\u2019t just walk into a k\u014Dhanga reo and not understand the language and then be able to do this function. I would be interested to hear some answers from the Minister around how that function fits in with the very specific role that k\u014Dhanga reo and puna reo have as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EAlso, I was looking at sections 27B(e) and (g), inserted by clause 7, which are \u201C(e) to carry out proactive, regular, risk-based monitoring of compliance by service providers with applicable requirements under this Act:\u201D, and \u201C(g) assess and respond\u2014(i) to complaints about licensed early childhood services and certified playgroups:\u201D. Perhaps this has been covered before, so apologies to the committee if it has been. I\u2019m thinking about the role that teacher-pupil ratios will have\u2014early childhood ratios. As the Minister probably does know, and probably the committee knows as well, that is a point of contention within the sector as well, and it\u2019s always different as well. If you\u2019re looking after\u2014I\u2019m just thinking about my own kids\u2014a bunch of two-year-olds, they\u2019re all different than if you\u2019re taking care of children that are younger than two-year-olds, and, of course, as they get older as well. What role does the Director of Regulation play? And things around teacher-pupil ratios: is there a role; isn\u2019t there a role? I would also be interested to hear the Minister\u2019s response, and how that could be possibly linked, or not, to WorkSafe considerations as well, because if you\u2019re trying to juggle lots of kids and you\u2019re just one person and they\u2019re babies, that\u2019s a lot of work. What compliance tasks will the Minister expect this Director of Regulation to do? What are the functions that they could have as well?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll just recap for the Minister. Just for someone like myself, who wasn\u2019t able to get to the select committee, the differences between the secretary and the Director of Regulation\u2014also, those questions around the inclusion of Te Tiriti o Waitangi, not because it\u2019s just a constitutional element, which I think is important, but because it defines particular early childhood spaces such as k\u014Dhanga reo and puna reo. How will the function of this Director of Regulation check on the quality of te reo M\u0101ori language assurance and quality? My last question is just around ratios as well: how will that work? We do want teachers to be able to do their job safely, to look after our kids\u2019 safety as well\u2014it\u2019s incredibly important. If there is some function that is outlined there, it\u2019d be good to hear that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba1c3347a7f24a1ba145252e2dbd2c91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba1c3347a7f24a1ba145252e2dbd2c91\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll address, quickly, a number of questions that have been asked. Jo Luxton asked what \u201Creasonably practicable\u201D means. It means what it sounds like: people should be required by the law to do what is possible, but they can\u2019t be asked by the law to do impossible things. It\u2019s used in a lot of drafting. I faced a similar question, I think over the Regulatory Standards Act, or maybe it was the Medicines Amendment Act, but that should be a familiar term to people who are paid to make laws in New Zealand. It\u2019s through many of the laws we make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003ELawrence Xu-Nan and Teanau Tuiono both asked about incorporating a Treaty clause, particularly in relation to k\u014Dhanga reo and te puna reo. We could do that, but I would stress to them that actually New Zealand is a place with many settlers of different backgrounds and many different types of education. It\u2019s not obvious why we would put one of them in legislation. What we want is people who work for all children, and that means that you may look at section 14(a): the select committee actually said \u201Ceducation that allows all children to establish strong foundations\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003ELawrence Xu-Nan said he had an amendment in relation to that. I\u2019ve addressed this issue of the Treaty several times; we\u2019re not going to accept that amendment. There was also an amendment suggesting that WorkSafe be involved. WorkSafe is already involved, because this is a workplace under the Health and Safety at Work Act; that\u2019s played out where the Ministry of Education and WorkSafe have worked together over the coloured sand issue that\u2019s being dealt with as we speak, so there\u2019s no need for WorkSafe\u2019s role to be put into this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary asked a series of questions about clause 6, about information and the custody of information and respect for information. She even asked about M\u0101ori data sovereignty. Quite simply, all that clause 6 of this bill does is shift a role from the Secretary of Education to the Director of Regulation. That person will be subject to exactly the same requirements, acting under the Public Service as they would be, regardless of what particular role they had or what we called it, so there\u2019s not actually a substantial change there, in clause 6 that\u2019s relevant to what she\u2019s talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EThen there was a question, I think, about\u2014Lawrence Xu-Nan asked if the Director of Regulation would be accountable to the secretary. I think it\u2019s really helpful, I\u2019d say to Dr Xu-Nan, to read what it says here: the Director of Regulation is appointed by the secretary. They have to be an employee of the ministry, which the secretary is in charge of. I think it should be pretty clear: if you work for someone and they appoint you to a position, you\u2019re accountable to them. I can\u2019t make it any simpler than that, much as the member might need me to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EThen there was a question of whether there should be a child impact statement added, in some sort of analogy to the Regulatory Standards Act. No, we have no intention of doing anything like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EFinally, there was a question from Teanau Tuiono in relation to new section 27B and the functions of the director and whether the director would be a policy maker, for example, setting the ratio of students to teachers. Well, the answer to that is no, and part of the purpose of what we\u2019re doing here, and the reason that we\u2019re setting it up this way, is that we want the person who makes the policy and the person that enforces the rules to be different. We wouldn\u2019t want, for example, the police to be making the laws and then enforcing them. We try to have a separation, and that\u2019s generally considered now to be best-practice regulation; that\u2019s what we\u2019re doing here, in part. It\u2019s one of the things that we\u2019re doing with this bill, so that will continue to be made by the Government, advised by the Ministry of Education, not by this director.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022 data-id=\u0022f44de55c66a14a3bb5f553b0689afbfc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f44de55c66a14a3bb5f553b0689afbfc\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have two questions for the Minister. One\u2019s a new one, but the other one is that I just want to seek some clarification from the Minister with response to my earlier question. I accept what he has said there, and I\u2019m not trying to be difficult; I\u2019m just trying to understand really clearly\u2014really clearly\u2014where \u201Cas far as is reasonably practicable\u201D is used in new section 14A(e), \u201CObjectives of Part 2\u201D, inserted by clause 5. I want to understand why those words are in there when it says clearly that you\u2019re trying to implement\u2014\u201Cimplementing a licensing and certification system that provides service providers, parents, and caregivers with certainty and clarity \u2026 regarding minimum standards for quality services.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022\u003EWhy are those words \u201Creasonably practicable\u201D in there when this is going to be implementing a system that provides clarity and certainty regarding minimum standards for quality services? I still don\u2019t understand why those words are in there, and I\u2019m genuinely not trying to be awkward when I ask that question. I wasn\u2019t a member of the select committee, so I really am keen to understand that, when it should be something that should be quite clear and easy for the objectives to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022\u003EThe other question I have is around the Director of Regulation, new section 27A, inserted by clause 7\u2014that \u201CThe Secretary must be satisfied that the person has the appropriate experience and expertise to perform and exercise the functions, duties, and powers of the Director of Regulation.\u201D What is deemed to be the appropriate experience and expertise? Are they going to be required to have a sound knowledge of the early childhood sector or otherwise? Is that going to be a requirement or not? I note some of the questions that were raised by the Kindergartens Aotearoa association with particular regard to this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022\u003EWhat mechanism is in place to ensure that, in discharging their duty, the director is not in conflict with ministry policy and practice? Do they remain an employee of the ministry when their responsibilities will sit with the Education Review Office?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022\u003EI\u2019m interested to know about the appropriate experience and expertise. Who will decide that? What is deemed to be appropriate experience and expertise? Surely someone who\u2019s going to be in charge of a sector like that should have\u2014it would be good for them to have\u2014certain knowledge of the early childhood sector and how it has operated in the past and what it is that the Minister is trying to achieve going forward in the future with early childhood education service as well. It would be really good if the Minister could clarify.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ada737cf066d49e3bdff907538550969\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ada737cf066d49e3bdff907538550969\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I will just try once more on \u201Creasonably practicable\u201D. I guess the point is that the law has to be upheld, and it could be upheld in a court. If the law didn\u2019t say \u201Creasonably practicable\u201D and it said that the regulator had to provide certainty and clarity to parents, without any qualification, then it\u2019s a standard that could never really be reached, because there would always be somebody who said that something was too uncertain or unclear. You can test whether a person has done all of the things that they reasonably could have done, so it actually allows the law to be followed and interpreted, whereas it could become meaningless if it\u2019s a standard that can never practically be reached.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EAs far as the appropriate knowledge and expertise, the bill doesn\u2019t say what the appropriate knowledge and expertise for the Director of Regulation is. What the bill says is that the person who appoints them has to be satisfied that they have the appropriate knowledge and expertise. Now, in that circumstance, the person might well be asked, \u201CWhat did you think was appropriate? Why did you think this person was the right person?\u201D and they would have to give their reasons, and that would be subject to public scrutiny. Like many of the purposes of this legislation, we are trying to ensure that the purpose of regulating and the quality of regulation is set out in law so that ordinary people can say, \u201CHey, you\u2019re not doing this right. Parliament said how you should do it.\u201D It\u2019s all about giving people some standing and some status and holding people accountable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b39f3231e86a4fecb32c23f617cc2e34\u0022 data-id=\u002235bd3702066341b28775b7110409bcd9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b39f3231e86a4fecb32c23f617cc2e34\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235bd3702066341b28775b7110409bcd9\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS (Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to thank my colleagues over here for defending M\u0101ori education, and, in this case, our kids. I want to stress the point, the relevance, and the place of Te Tiriti o Waitangi in education legislation and endeavour over the last 50 years. This is not just a case of \u201CCan you put pop the Treaty in?\u201D, and this speaks more broadly to the broad attack on Te Tiriti o Waitangi and the removal of it in education, from preschool all the way through to university.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b39f3231e86a4fecb32c23f617cc2e34\u0022\u003ENow, it\u2019s been the adherence to Te Tiriti o Waitangi, the requirement of adherence to Te Tiriti o Waitangi, in education legislation over the last 50 years that has taken M\u0101ori from a place of being almost boxed out of education, be it in preschool or university, in the 1950s and 1960s, that has been hard fought through the 1970s, the 1980s, the 1990s, and the 2000s, all the way up to today, to us producing the highest results in education\u2014the highest in the country. Have a look at NCEA, have a look around, and have a look at the participation rates of today versus 1980. Have a look at it all. It all tells us that the inclusion of Te Tiriti o Waitangi is part of the success.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b39f3231e86a4fecb32c23f617cc2e34\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori education model has been tried, tested through fire and through everything, and has come out still going strong, OK? It\u2019s the best educational model for M\u0101ori. It\u2019s the same in preschool. It\u2019s the same in puna reo, in k\u014Dhanga reo. It\u2019s the same in kura kaupapa and wharekura. It\u2019s not lost on me that we have a Minister here who\u2019s actually using the kura kaupapa model to promote his other endeavours in education. It\u2019s just beyond me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b39f3231e86a4fecb32c23f617cc2e34\u0022\u003EOK, so it has been the adherence to Te Tiriti o Waitangi that has enabled all of that development. So why, oh why, in 2025, are we taking it out, getting rid of it, stripping it back? We\u2019re making it, oh, just, you know, no longer a commitment. It\u2019s completely beyond me\u2014it\u2019s completely beyond me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b39f3231e86a4fecb32c23f617cc2e34\u0022\u003EThere has been generation after generation of M\u0101ori academics who have stood up and proposed these things\u2014educational hypotheses, completed doctorates\u2014and who became professors, led universities, and started their own to prove all of these things. All of it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt\u2014that\u2019s what the evidence tells us\u2014and yet here we are, having to defend the M\u0101ori science of learning\u2014the M\u0101ori science of learning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b39f3231e86a4fecb32c23f617cc2e34\u0022\u003EOK, these things have been done already and they\u2019ve been proven. The link between language and knowledge system is a known thing. In te ao M\u0101ori [M\u0101ori society] we call that te reo M\u0101ori me \u014Dna tikanga [the M\u0101ori language and its associated traditional practices], and what\u2019s known is that it is connection, and the earlier you can get it in, the more powerful those young people become along their educational journey. Proven fact\u2014proven fact\u2014time and time and time again. Then, here we are, with someone not so schooled in educational endeavour, leading the bandwagon of getting rid of the Treaty. It is absurd\u2014it is absurd and obscene. It\u2019s obscene, because as I think about the 30 percent of young M\u0101ori who are going to form the labour workforce of this country into the future, you are talking about undermining their educational experience. I just cannot fathom what the reasonable answer is, and I cannot fathom it because there is not one there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b39f3231e86a4fecb32c23f617cc2e34\u0022\u003ESo as I think about these things\u2014these are all in Part 1, by the way\u2014and as I read through it, there\u2019s no requirement for anyone in this piece of legislation to give any thought to anything a young M\u0101ori learner or their wh\u0101nau might need. How can that possibly be a community, family, or a representative model where one culture is just completely sidelined? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b39f3231e86a4fecb32c23f617cc2e34\u0022\u003EIf we want to talk about the relevance and the place of Te Tiriti o Waitangi, you\u2019re talking about the constitutional founding document, the document that gives constitutional validity to M\u0101ori and constitutional validity to every other person in the country, and the Minister thinks, \u201CHuh, well, there are a lot of us in this country. Why would we put that one in?\u201D We\u2019d put it in because it represents every single person in the country\u2014that\u2019s why. So I\u2019d love to hear any response this Minister has to any of the things I\u2019ve put forward. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac07de0e348342e9a7e4286c9d92b5b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac07de0e348342e9a7e4286c9d92b5b2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to take a question from Teanau Tuiono, but I am looking for new\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022343d64b5d4ea490e9f3ebbcf050f2ff2\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3b6cd95e3424ab3aa31e52df693736f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: And questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022046358f57cd242169eb10955d5c93732\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022046358f57cd242169eb10955d5c93732\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a couple of quick questions, and to acknowledge the responses so far from the Assistant Minister of Education. I do hear what my colleague T\u0101kuta Ferris was saying, as well, in terms of Te Tiriti, because, for a number of us, that would solve a lot of the issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EWe were talking earlier about the role that the Director of Regulation would play, and I haven\u2019t yet heard an answer around how when you go into, say, a k\u014Dhanga reo or a puna reo, you don\u2019t have the language or cultural competency\u2014how is that going to work practically? That\u2019s what I want to know. This person will have a number of new functions under this legislation. How are they going to understand them, let alone all the other early childhood centres which operate in other languages, as well? So it\u2019s a practical question about exactly how that particular element would work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EThere are a number of us that think that if you put Te Tiriti in there, in the references\u2014and I just acknowledge the tabled amendments by my friend Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan, which would take care of that and ensure that that would be taken care of. But if they\u2019re not in there, how is that function going to be carried out in a way which is useful? If they don\u2019t understand the language, it makes it very, very tricky if they don\u2019t understand the cultural context as well, and there has to be a depth of language, as well, in order for that to be useful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EThe other quick question that I have is around ratios. I heard what the Minister was saying that this is about compliance, and if they\u2019re not compliant, then that should have a feedthrough with policy. I understood that. But what happens with the situation where you have complaints that are arising because particular early childhood centres are breaking ratio, where you have too many kids or babies per teacher, and that\u2019s creating unsafe working conditions for both the tamariki and mokopuna, and also for the teachers, as well? Does that fall into the function of this Director of Regulation? Are they able to make recommendations to the policyholders or to the policy creators, as well? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EMy understanding is that ratios are determined by Order in Council, and the one that we have\u2014unless we\u2019ve changed it since I was following this issue more closely\u2014is still stuck on what the old ratios were years and years ago, even though the research is telling us, \u201CActually, you\u2019ve got to be able to deal with our babies differently, as opposed to our toddlers.\u201D, and so on and so forth. So my question is: what is that link, and I ask if the Minister could be give a specific answer around the ratio question. If complaints arise because of the functions of the Director of Regulation in terms of breaking ratio, or all of those other issues that I\u2019ve talked about, what is the follow-through so that you can get some policy change?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u002261c2cd4ff3964af7af84f41fbde5986c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261c2cd4ff3964af7af84f41fbde5986c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Look, in the first speech, there was actually nothing of substance to respond to. In the second speech, from Teanau Tuiono, he\u2019s asked, well, what happens if the rules are not being addressed? New section 27B in clause 7 is the section that he might look at. It\u2019s the job of the Director of Regulation to address breaches of the rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EHe\u2019s then asked me about the fact that there may be some people who would argue that the research suggested ratio should go up, and others would suggest that they should go down, but, as I\u2019ve said, that\u2019s not part of this bill. That\u2019s not something this Director of Regulation should decide. But section 27B(b) does say that they should enforce the rules that are there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EHe\u2019s also asked about language and culture, and asked whether people will be confident, given that you\u2019ve got M\u0101ori there as first settlers, and you\u2019ve had many waves of settlers since then\u2014people with different aspirations, language, and culture. If you go into a place which might be Chinese, for example, will they be able to speak to that? Obviously, when you come to hire people, hiring people that are capable and confident is going to be important. But that\u2019s not something in this legislation, other than perhaps the requirement that the person who is hired as the Director for Regulation has the capability required in the opinion of the Secretary for Education who hires them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220cca8d925277422396d3d4e7837175a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5b7c864aa8d4ccd9caf2b0a10b93936\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220cca8d925277422396d3d4e7837175a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5b7c864aa8d4ccd9caf2b0a10b93936\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022cff87eadc5df410d9ed7cd4dadd874f8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab6d78e9a9ca4c209b39056e2484df28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab6d78e9a9ca4c209b39056e2484df28\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to Part 1 set out on Amendment Paper 440 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221174799d22c841a099df40f31d04fc21\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00229702c217d36a45d78728a948bfc1f87e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229702c217d36a45d78728a948bfc1f87e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 4, amending the new definition of early childhood education to insert \u201Cthat opts to be certified under this Act\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002296498ab39d0347f5a2926ed898d8b340\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1e107474b514b0691959cf147200b19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1e107474b514b0691959cf147200b19\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I please ask people to be prompt with their voting, and also just to make sure, under Speaker\u2019s ruling 71/3, that it\u2019s just the person who calls out who gives the vote for or against, and the number that they\u2019re voting for, and nothing extra.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003EThe question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 4, deleting the words after \u201Ca playgroup\u201D in the new definition of early childhood education, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002270550f4982424bd88a40a69d09c97871\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022be63840e449246fe93b141140c31945d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be63840e449246fe93b141140c31945d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5, replacing the word \u201Csystem\u201D with \u201Cservice\u201D in new section 14, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002227077f5fc3ae48a19cce014f9617e6e0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00226e580d39490042368a5a18879a16b722\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e580d39490042368a5a18879a16b722\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting words after \u201Csystem\u201D in new section 14, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002218436083f8e74a96a756146ae96bedc3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022dec2536c140346dfb1f45f4bb011558e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dec2536c140346dfb1f45f4bb011558e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Willis, I\u2019m just going to ask you if you can be just a little bit quicker getting to your feet with those votes, please. Otherwise, start standing up a little sooner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003EThe question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, deleting the word \u201Cminimum\u201D from paragraph (a) of new section 14, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022858e464ea02241e084de81bc7a598021\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002257be0c4b395d4142b5dcee3e06326e1c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257be0c4b395d4142b5dcee3e06326e1c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5, replacing paragraph (b) of new section 14, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002210eb770d85974070804aca32a4025bee\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00225f36ab1bb2f545519de5eb83303a339e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f36ab1bb2f545519de5eb83303a339e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, deleting paragraph (b) of new section 14, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228a91d800ef8c4d6497ce6238e1217aca\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00223df09ddc1eeb4795be14439443d7fd0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223df09ddc1eeb4795be14439443d7fd0b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5, adding the word \u201Cgrandparents\u201D after \u201Cparents\u201D in paragraph (b) of new section 14, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022081600e53e994ac399f23f1db68a121a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00225a41d8f927fa4fc1839ca4c6bada8e18\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a41d8f927fa4fc1839ca4c6bada8e18\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Jan Tinetti\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting paragraph (c) into new section 14, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226c6bfeafe2824c7187cf533c09ab6d42\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022afe9c8427d554d179f5b273d548f3f31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022afe9c8427d554d179f5b273d548f3f31\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting a new paragraph (c) in new section 14, relating to Te Tiriti o Waitangi, is out of order as being the same in substance as a previous amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003EThe question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting new paragraph (c) into new section 14 regarding resourcing for early childhood education, be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022047655ebe64744e49a8998edf28ae73f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00222fe925e03d5a4bb9b0cb37cd8eef366f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fe925e03d5a4bb9b0cb37cd8eef366f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting paragraph (aa) into new section 14A, regarding children\u2019s rights and welfare, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002282f009599c664a239f178ff2118ae098\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00222127eb19212e46b791f6c9f9d765e071\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222127eb19212e46b791f6c9f9d765e071\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5, replacing \u201Creceiving\u201D with \u201Cparticipating in\u201D in paragraph (a) of section 14A, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d27522917fdb43ad8c1231a66d7ab1f1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce2f0bf562b844e1a310670539a4d46b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce2f0bf562b844e1a310670539a4d46b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting \u201Cas the primary objective under this Part.\u201D in paragraph (a) of new section 14A, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fe4409067a3e446db9408ccd9b54f5ed\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002220bb6d29f35e426da59b3e0559ca7009\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220bb6d29f35e426da59b3e0559ca7009\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting the words \u201Cincluding adequate teacher-student ratio\u201D in paragraph (a) of new section 14A, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022cfbcca34058840a8bd2728243df23878\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00220677f4499c054aeb8e8f430fdc5af927\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220677f4499c054aeb8e8f430fdc5af927\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting the word \u201Cemotional\u201D into paragraph (b) of new section 14A, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fc191d4c45e54206ab9e4f796d007c0e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00227d7d1a9430ef4b45a87d0610a8a7ff6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d7d1a9430ef4b45a87d0610a8a7ff6a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting paragraph (ba) into new section 14A, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226f242e67099a4c41990fb0362c08a055\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022bcfb837bf1914af2a8e15ff452aa06a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bcfb837bf1914af2a8e15ff452aa06a4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting \u201Cgrandparent\u201D after every instance of the word \u201Cparent\u201D in new section 14A, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bb4c21ae7ad748d79d52f68d8e4b98af\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f00b4da4fc7c4ebb95dec173f1026507\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f00b4da4fc7c4ebb95dec173f1026507\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5, amending paragraph (d) of new section 14A, regarding monitoring and reporting of the performance of the early childhood education system, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002245dd0e7bb5ce41aea90d29db49025492\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac75f4c7dd814528ad157f133f7a28be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac75f4c7dd814528ad157f133f7a28be\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5, adding the words \u201Cgeographic availability and equitable provision\u201D to paragraph (d) of new section 14A, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a32daa26b72543509cac277f0678d724\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7edddacf3ea4f57b4bf9bede7a254b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7edddacf3ea4f57b4bf9bede7a254b7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5, adding the words \u201Cavailability and price\u201D to paragraph (d) of new section 14A, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227fea620b5722465ebf951d2c536caed2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022da550991abb343199705236a369ee96e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da550991abb343199705236a369ee96e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5, adding the words \u201Cgeographic location and availability\u201D to paragraph (d) of new section 14A, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224406fda43c2f4c8ea28b8346ba94cd22\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapi-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022df8653713f88409ab917df095ea1da3b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df8653713f88409ab917df095ea1da3b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5, deleting \u201Cas far as is reasonably practicable\u201D from paragraph (e) of new section 14A, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002211e6bea8d868441e831400a967cdce54\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapi-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002218f2339ae9ae4cfe8a7767fc0c8654b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218f2339ae9ae4cfe8a7767fc0c8654b4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, deleting the word \u201Cminimum\u201D from paragraph (e) of new section 14A, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022929e0f5e2bf341f4a3a68696e4f487d4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapi-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba6a1f1c40fd43f8b821af0f5d2bd51e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba6a1f1c40fd43f8b821af0f5d2bd51e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Jan Tinetti\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting paragraph (f) into new section 14A, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002274c9c9f55182487393a77acdd13a0105\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapi-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00227dcc34fb79f9400c97a36a9ecd842ea1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227dcc34fb79f9400c97a36a9ecd842ea1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting paragraph (f) into new section 14A, relating to funding and resourcing for teachers and staff, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223715242217f947ca905bbc2c812ee4f8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapi-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00222c958e5c11c5484088a954491e1808e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c958e5c11c5484088a954491e1808e4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting paragraph (f) into new section 14A, relating to implementing a curriculum that gives effect to Te Tiriti o Waitangi, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224c39efc6fcf0428a8b99493d806217bb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapi-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022228575f4684e483eb413b84281aeba4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022228575f4684e483eb413b84281aeba4a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting paragraph (f) into new section 14A, relating to relevant student rights, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022490f6bf3cdde4a2a99a5fab8fc84f2bf\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapi-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00229017082566b348d48c0a0bdafb4e6b14\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229017082566b348d48c0a0bdafb4e6b14\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting paragraph (f) into new section 14A, relating to the elimination of forms of discrimination, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227d58bd3dce324020ba932ba464671eaf\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapi-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00225cb2698bbea740b2a3cbf82349312a3c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225cb2698bbea740b2a3cbf82349312a3c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting paragraph (f) into new section 14A, relating to the reporting on early childhood education, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022276dde5da7794befbe213222ac1529ac\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapi-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002280cd5ce0d14e4eecb3c6aeead1375dc3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280cd5ce0d14e4eecb3c6aeead1375dc3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting a new section 14B headed \u201CK\u014Dhanga reo\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b104c390853747c8979cddbcfccb726a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapi-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002257e8bc9738d249178358d7e87a6c9949\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257e8bc9738d249178358d7e87a6c9949\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting a new section 14B headed \u201CKaiako pay equity\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002243952515ef244e3784c71c1b6a9dda9a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00226daa771821db456abfff749f04325f94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226daa771821db456abfff749f04325f94\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting a new section 14B headed \u201CEquity-based funding for M\u0101ori medium education\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022776db837cd21427f8332afc64016c923\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022311eba0f075e448993bb59225ea956bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255a670e52c7d47fba9b3c68a3bef7558\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Looks hard work\u2014take a break in between if you\u2019re tired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002206425a521f124197b3d3872e78aad774\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206425a521f124197b3d3872e78aad774\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: In response to the question from the Hon Kieran McAnulty, a break in between would not be very helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022311eba0f075e448993bb59225ea956bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ca692772dfa4621b439d7757f89f278\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s just she was tired, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce467a95295a4bc49cd643cee5f2c536\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I know, I can see that, but a break would not be helpful. The question is that T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting a new section 14B headed \u201CTe Tiriti o Waitangi\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a693ad0d03034061b28800e68408c942\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u00225c972c00c5654d6588cb0a6d914b0855\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c972c00c5654d6588cb0a6d914b0855\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chairperson. In light of the comments from Kieran McAnulty being tired of voting, I seek leave for the remaining Opposition amendments to be skipped in terms of voting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00226923c32ff43b4a1d9e585138e26023fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226923c32ff43b4a1d9e585138e26023fa\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022311eba0f075e448993bb59225ea956bb\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7200a1a59ff4f13a55caab14b23be6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022311eba0f075e448993bb59225ea956bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7200a1a59ff4f13a55caab14b23be6d\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chairperson. I think everybody knows that that\u2019s not what I said\u2014you certainly know that\u2014and I don\u2019t think that leave should be taken seriously when it is quite clearly a misrepresentation of what has been said. The comments were between you and myself, not between the Minister and myself, and you, at the time, took it as a light-hearted comment. It shouldn\u2019t lead to leave being sought for those purposes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u0022037500b1bc264b81915bed2225b66110\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022037500b1bc264b81915bed2225b66110\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to the point of order, I was aware that the proposal that I made was not his solution to his problem. I was just giving him my solution to his problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00227ad87409dc6046a0afe4d2d5702f7555\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ad87409dc6046a0afe4d2d5702f7555\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, thank you for those points of order. Look, I will say that some of these times in the committee are quite tedious, and I do question what value the public who\u2019s watching on TV gets from this process, but it is a political thing that\u2019s been going backwards and forwards for many years. Given that there\u2019s some more votes in front of me, I think we\u2019ll just carry on. If anyone does want to withdraw their amendment and we have a rest, they\u2019re more than welcome to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003EThe question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting a new section 14B headed \u201CClarity of obligations\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227cb6e9ff63be4b90b90b1bccf39f869b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022311eba0f075e448993bb59225ea956bb\u0022 data-id=\u00220b1ef173547246849f0a0ef5d43e376a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022311eba0f075e448993bb59225ea956bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b1ef173547246849f0a0ef5d43e376a\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chairperson. I\u2019m not sure how the member from New Zealand First voted, I don\u2019t believe that to be clear, and, just for clarity, I\u2019d like him to say in either of the official languages how it is that he voted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002278c22d84800f409a99f593d6094fcde1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278c22d84800f409a99f593d6094fcde1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Would the member like to repeat his vote?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eac6c3aa5817441f89ae786e919f239b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214aff90f57d04d1b98a7487f0b0f58f6\u0022\u003EDr David Wilson\u003C/span\u003E: Eight votes opposed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022585c6fc3df544cfbb0ee0771d3d55053\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003EThe question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 6, replacing \u201CDirector of Regulation\u201D with \u201CRegulations Review Committee of Parliament\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220a52708a8bfe4b10b17ba958744e5a2a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c45a2edae1bf4a90858a43627f93870e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c45a2edae1bf4a90858a43627f93870e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 6, inserting the words \u201Cif the information relates to regulatory compliance or efficiency only\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022465424ca688f4f7dafc00c46ac6b8529\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb6e2f2c063a4c5999e62813be384911\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb6e2f2c063a4c5999e62813be384911\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 6, inserting the words \u201Cby agreement of the Secretary\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00228920e3e06525480ebf4b8a07c48c4a4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228920e3e06525480ebf4b8a07c48c4a4a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 7, amending new section 27A(2), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a260e278a9914bf9a32c627f62a5e77e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f99437c627a244bc9feff9803a334d5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f99437c627a244bc9feff9803a334d5d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 7, inserting the words \u201Cincluding Te Tiriti o Waitangi\u201D into new section 27A(2), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228df7931609554a0498a286d43b1c23be\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022268f1bcfdeb84d389c097fb735809c15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022268f1bcfdeb84d389c097fb735809c15\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Jan Tinetti\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 7, inserting subsection (5) into new section 27A, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227173e1802ec74aeeb28fc298fc3fd9d0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00221ff8462da467444a9f3aa6cd1127a600\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ff8462da467444a9f3aa6cd1127a600\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 7, inserting the words \u201Calongside the relevant health and safety agency\u201D into new section 27B(k), is out of order as not being in the correct form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003EThe question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 7, inserting paragraph (j) into new section 27B, relating to compliance with Te Tiriti o Waitangi, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220b33d87cf0be40c299a65dd9d7d0f856\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002294242e0a83b747358a6f216e8b9aed91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294242e0a83b747358a6f216e8b9aed91\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 7, inserting paragraph (j) into new section 27B, relating to compliance with the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022187a43525251414288a31d06a2987a2d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022292ba95d432343668a32fc7163a0d52e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022292ba95d432343668a32fc7163a0d52e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 7, amending new section 27D(c), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a79eab05f5dc476281b9879a43ad5db0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002252cb9bb5a23d411b9e828b24e86cfec5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252cb9bb5a23d411b9e828b24e86cfec5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 7, inserting paragraph (ca) into new section 27D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022caeaf63203974247b9bd3cda119e92ed\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00226524c196cff744939761d047b8c0b57a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226524c196cff744939761d047b8c0b57a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 7, inserting paragraph (ca) into new section 27D, relating to the role of qualified teachers and staff, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002225db9edd64c14159b0a61819f9ff9aa2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00227bb593032c624e23b3a028803ebedf54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227bb593032c624e23b3a028803ebedf54\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Jan Tinetti\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 7, deleting new section 27D(d)(ii), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a314385705e54f80a8a96cb891730d8b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002275dcfc8f328d41668e95d82c60ada50f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275dcfc8f328d41668e95d82c60ada50f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 7, replacing paragraph (aa) of new section 27E(3), relating to delegation of functions, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002222f4fe25b3dd4c4788077043cbaf24cb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe04c353a6a84ea5abda5eea134cd87c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe04c353a6a84ea5abda5eea134cd87c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 7, inserting a new section 27F headed \u201CAnnual M\u0101ori education equity report\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220d8cf62cc4454f9296808b20934999ed\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00229cf4ca9c1c7049f3bf4c33fe0d2b73d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229cf4ca9c1c7049f3bf4c33fe0d2b73d3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 7, inserting a new section 27F headed \u201CMonitoring of racism and discrimination\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002235a217a1a03343bb8492d1bddb224a1a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00227b2c64ae65264037a06df976b6414976\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b2c64ae65264037a06df976b6414976\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 7, inserting a new section 27F headed \u201CM\u0101ori early childhood workforce development\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220bfbb9c764e14c11880b297bc978df3c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbe6f03dea404b8f895f868040c20d19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbe6f03dea404b8f895f868040c20d19\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 7, inserting a new section 27F headed \u201CM\u0101ori Standards Authority\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d9db5b6610b640bdb5276757d1edb866\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002213e3272fdf894c43aecaf7cf3608b3cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213e3272fdf894c43aecaf7cf3608b3cd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Jan Tinetti\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 9, inserting subsection (5) into new section 619A, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227f6191d50ac944cdb2ab88c0c70a7125\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00225b4b5bd2950a4c6285b6c38525781329\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b4b5bd2950a4c6285b6c38525781329\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 9, inserting subsection (5) into new section 619A, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bdecfd02a85343a0a260c0cc1ed5655c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022311792c8f4f74c729ce9445e8e9f392e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022311792c8f4f74c729ce9445e8e9f392e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before we start the next vote, I\u2019d just ask the member not to interrupt the member who is so diligently doing all that voting over there. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003EThe question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendments to clause 10 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a30f30e5b57f43d285caf798871c4741\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c87b79224f6a49b38630ddb9a3a3459a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c87b79224f6a49b38630ddb9a3a3459a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 11, amending new section 636(2)(b), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228a05bfd61e3a4869a6031d2c629928fa\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2a715f643b94dc9b93c226fbd34b95d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2a715f643b94dc9b93c226fbd34b95d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dfb8bc2dcb344459b12f60f31b2a7c61\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022954d3ba1e98545a9a5bc2de067c6392e\u0022\u003EPart 2  Consequential amendments to other legislation, and Schedule 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00221f1b61e9f61b46d5b96dca438349dfff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f1b61e9f61b46d5b96dca438349dfff\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 2, the debate on clause 14\u2014\u201CConsequential amendments to other legislation\u201D\u2014and Schedule 2. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u00223c50b6ebd864416dad0e9f5f18c03ac2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c50b6ebd864416dad0e9f5f18c03ac2\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 consists of one clause. It is clause 14, \u201CConsequential amendments\u201D, where it says, \u201CAmend the legislation specified in Schedule 2 as set out in that schedule.\u201D It goes on in Schedule 2 to make a series of amendments to the early childhood and the playcentre regulations, both from 2008. These are changes and cross-references, replacing the word \u201CSecretary\u201D with \u201CDirector of Regulation\u201D for example, because as we know, the purpose of this bill is, in part, to create the Director of Regulation who takes on the role the secretary would have played.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9804dc98a44431eb9321d2729608b48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9804dc98a44431eb9321d2729608b48\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Part 2 has been described, previously this afternoon, as being mainly technical, and I think he\u2019s given us a flavour of his view of that. Indeed, it could look administrative. But actually, the system-level impact of Schedule 2 is significant. That is because it operationalises the full removal of the Ministry of Education from regulation decision-making in early childhood education (ECE). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThis is about the decoupling. Unfortunately, we were not really able to interrogate what that would mean in the previous debate, which was shut down rather early, in my view, because there were supplementary questions around the level of uncertainty in the roles of the secretary and the new director. What this schedule does is it replaces the \u201CSecretary\u201D with the new \u201CDirector of Regulation\u201D in every clause that deals with licensing, and there are many of those and we will have some questions around that, specifically around including the conditions of licence and suspension and withdrawal of licences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EIt also regulates monitoring and inspection. We did not get to interrogate the lack of safeguards around the new enforcement powers that the director has, which are broader than the secretary. Again, enforcement actions: the same issue there around safeguarding, notification to parents, notices of intention to take action, compliance processes, minimum standard check, permission to vary ratios and premises uses, and many of the clauses there are also relating to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t think we heard adequate answers from the Minister regarding some of the questions that were raised by the Green Party on that. That speaks to educational quality, to ECE pedagogy, to curriculum support, teaching workforce issues, and licensing and regulation that will now sit in different agencies. Let\u2019s remember, also, that the licensing is currently done by Ellen MacGregor-Reid, who has been around this building for about 10 years. There will be transitional situations that will arise. We haven\u2019t been able to interrogate what will happen to the case law and the decision-making whakapapa, if you like, when that changes. As I\u2019ve said, the Director of Regulation has broader delegation powers than the secretary did, but there are no safeguards in this schedule.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EWe still have unanswered questions around conflicts of interest, private sector influence, profit -driven quality drift, and less focus on education. I want to ask the Minister a few questions specifically, but I also want to pick up on something that he himself said, which was he talked about this being a bill of best practice\u2014that this is about having separation of powers essentially, and he mentioned that in relation to regulation. But I would like to point the Minister to the regulatory impact statement where there was a lack of consultation. But also, there have been select committee submissions that have talked about the strong pedagogical oversight and effective transition from ECE to school requiring clear public accountability and having a model where the secretary and director role are together, where there is one overarching governance structure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EECE may be the outlier as far as regulation goes, but that is what the OECD report says. It\u2019s in a report called Starting Strong. It was alluded to by submitters. In page 126 to 129 it talks about when you decouple there are uneven service qualities, there\u2019s confusion amongst parents, there\u2019s regulatory inconsistency, weak accountability, gaps between educational goals and regulatory enforcement. On page 21 of that report, it also, basically, foreshadows what this bill is exactly doing in Schedule 2 by wholesalely transferring over these regulatory-making powers without oversight by creating a semi-autonomous regulator, it allows a third-party delegation of regulatory functions, and it moves oversight away from an education-led framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThat raises a whole lot of questions, which I will be asking, about accountabilities, because we don\u2019t see those powers elicited and alluded to and framed correctly in legislation. This is just a wholesale of moving from one role to another under, presumably, secondary regulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc76ce04ba6246c3a9ff568f25881412\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc76ce04ba6246c3a9ff568f25881412\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E The member is attempting to debate a series of policy questions; these were resolved in the debate on Part 1, and, indeed, in the select committee and in the first and second readings, as well as the policy developments and the Ministry for Regulation\u2019s review, which engaged thousands of people as far back as last June, nearly 18 months ago. This is a schedule that changes a series of words\u2014mainly replacing \u201CSecretary\u201D with \u201CDirector of Regulation\u201D in order to give the consequential amendments to the things agreed in Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EFurthermore, the member has made a suggestions that this somehow moves the regulator to the Education Review Office. It does not do that. There is a separate bill before the House which does do that, and we can debate that in that bill, in the appropriate place. So far as this bill goes, it simply shifts the position within the Ministry of Education from the current secretary to someone appointed by the secretary. And, by the way, Ellen MacGregor-Reid, great as she is, has been in the job for two weeks. The person who is appointed to this role might well have longer experience than her.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u00221b1051a04075473bbf30b5f36ff9ad04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b1051a04075473bbf30b5f36ff9ad04\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I do agree with the previous speaker, Ingrid Leary, that this section\u2014although, despite what the Minister is saying, it\u2019s a switching of various numbers\u2014simply highlights the scope of the role of the Director of Regulation in comparison to the Secretary for Education. Now, before, when we were discussing Part 1\u2014and I\u2019m going to say the same thing that the Minister said to me: if the Minister had listened to my questions carefully, the Minister would have remembered that I didn\u2019t ask regarding the interaction between the Director of Regulation and the secretary but, in fact, the Director of Regulation and the deputy secretary. The instance I raised was around the playcentre asbestos, because it was the deputy secretary who had to manage some of that\u2014specifically, the Deputy Secretary of Operations and Integration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EComing to Schedule 2 of Part 2, I still would like to know from the Minister how that organisational chart will potentially look when you\u2019re looking at, potentially, a lateral appointment. Again, I stress that the Director of Regulation will report to the secretary, but so would other deputy secretaries. How would the Director of Regulation interact with the broader Ministry of Education (MOE) when you are determining some of these regulations, as we see in Schedule 2? Again, a person may have that in title, maybe functions in power, but how would that work in terms of potentially overstepping what is within their mandate? Or if the mandate overlaps between the role of a secretary or deputy secretary and the role of the Director of Regulation, especially when things overlap in multiple areas? Early childhood services, for one, as well as schools, as in the example that I provided previously. I do want to check with the Minister that, for someone who does say they want to see a reduction in regulation and bureaucracy, this has inadvertently created a different layer of bureaucracy that someone needs to manage or look into. That covers most of the regulations, specifically, when you\u2019re looking at some of the ones that are to do with even, let\u2019s say, for example, ratio, which is Schedule 2 of the regulations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EJust a simple question to the Minister: how does the Director of Regulation interact with the broader MOE in that organisational chart\u2014again, not to do with the secretary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2bb0215928649629435009393f06a8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2bb0215928649629435009393f06a8d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I can only reiterate that the member Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan is openly trying to relitigate debate from Part 1, where the questions were addressed. He may not have liked the answers, but they were certainly given. This part is very narrow; it simply makes consequential amendments to give effect to matters that we\u2019ve already debated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u002292f37dc2bf5844f694b9a292d8017301\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292f37dc2bf5844f694b9a292d8017301\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I call the next speaker, this schedule and this part, which I can see is really narrow, does actually bring in the fact that you can talk about the secretary and the Director of Regulation, because that is, really, as I can see, what this whole schedule is about. Then it refers to various other regulations that are affected by the change that is being proposed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdcd31b53e1f49558dfdee6b23dfe870\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdcd31b53e1f49558dfdee6b23dfe870\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, just to give an example of that: if we look at what is being amended in the early childhood services regulations, there are quite a number of regulations to do with applications for licences, or a probationary licence, classes of licences, home-based licences, suspension of licences, circumstances where licences are changed or replaced, appeals, health and safety, and so on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThese are quite significant matters of public interest when it comes to the safety and efficacy of early childhood centres and play centres. I don\u2019t think we have had adequate explanation from the Minister, either in this debate or in previous ones, about the areas where the regulatory impact statement itself has identified that there is some area of potential confusion and overlap between the role of the secretary and the director. Just in relation to the Minister\u2019s comment about the secretary, he is definitely right\u2014she has just been appointed in the last two weeks. The point is that she has been in the role for about 10 years. What happens when you have a system where somebody has got that institutional expertise and knowledge and also case knowledge versus a director that is no longer under the auspices of or accountable to the Ministry of Education? I think that\u2019s really what we are trying to interrogate here in Schedule 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EIf we look at new regulation 41(1A), in Schedule 2, it says that \u201Cthe Secretary is the Minister\u2019s principal policy adviser.\u201D Then we\u2019re looking at what the relationship is between those two roles. I guess the questions we\u2019d like to know from the Minister is, really clearly for Hansard, who sets the standards, who monitors them, and who do affected parties appeal to under the regulations? Say, for example, there\u2019s a revocation of a licence or a change to the circumstances of a licence under the previous early childhood services regulations 39 and 39A, who handles complaints, and also who really does oversee the director? I think the critical question here was difficult to bring out in the previous debate because there were a number of clauses that we didn\u2019t get to. The question is: who does the director report to? It is correct to say that, in reality, it is the Minister, because once again we are seeing from this Government a lot of power vested in a particular Minister. Particularly, we\u2019ve got a director who is no longer beholden to the ministry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EI still haven\u2019t heard an answer regarding whether Te Tiriti obligations are implicit given that Schedule 2 extends the director\u2019s authority over k\u014Dhanga reo, puna reo, and bilingual units. The Minister has danced around the topic, but it would be very useful for those in the sector to understand, given that those are referred to. Does that mean Te Tiriti is extraneous, as he has said previously this afternoon, or is it implicitly conferred by this bill? I think he just needs to take a position\u2014and I can guess what it is. It would be good for the public to know what that is, because then we have to query how the director\u2019s authority extends over those when there are no Te Tiriti obligations to underpin those k\u014Dhanga reo, puna reo, and bilingual units.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThe other question is: how will the ministry ensure system stewardship when they are no longer regulating early childhood education services? That is really what this debate is about. We\u2019ve got this clever division of power between a secretary and a regulator, and one of them is beholden to the ministry and one of them is quasi-independent. There is some fuzziness around what the role is, particularly when it comes to secondary legislation and the regulation and the transitional arrangements. All of that looks like a way to avoid public accountability and scrutiny and to, really, allow more privatisation of the sector. Now, if that is not the case, I\u2019d like to hear that from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThere is no other reason to wholesale replace \u201CSecretary\u201D with \u201CDirector of Regulation\u201D under the schedule, which is really a wolf in sheep\u2019s clothing, because it\u2019s making it look like it\u2019s distinguishing policy leadership. That is how the Minister has described it. In fact, it is all about avoiding accountability that the ministry needs to be accountable for\u2014suddenly there\u2019s this director out there in quasi-autonomous role, with some fuzzy kind of duties, who doesn\u2019t have to respond to the ministry. It does come to policy, Minister, because that is essentially what the schedule is doing wholesale.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u0022fae06531016b41209ceedb6217554bf7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fae06531016b41209ceedb6217554bf7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I can only reiterate, and it might be helpful for people at home: Schedule 2 says things like \u201Cin regulation\u201D, \u201Cdefinition of contact person\u201D, \u201Creplace \u2018Secretary\u2019 with \u2018Director of Regulation\u2019 \u201D, and it carries on like that for about two pages. We debated, in the previous part, what the Director of Regulation will do. We debated what the relation of the Treaty of Waitangi is. All we\u2019re doing here is making the consequential amendment that since we agreed, in Part 1, that the Director of Regulation would exist and fulfil roles similar to those currently fulfilled by the secretary, we\u2019re going to replace the word \u201CSecretary\u201D with \u201CDirector of Regulation\u201D in quite a few different places. That\u2019s all we\u2019re talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022a62bfd4c2d844340a75201b70e273a75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a62bfd4c2d844340a75201b70e273a75\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the next speaker, can I just say that I had been on select committee prior to coming here, so usually I would watch this kind of debate before I take on this role. But I do understand that this part is actually much more narrow and that a lot of what has been debated was covered in Part 1. However, we are in urgency, so, given that we are in urgency, I\u2019ll give a little bit of leeway, but I will actually ask everyone to, very soon, make it much more narrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u002298132c7e0e124f61a566a9b2bfa831e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298132c7e0e124f61a566a9b2bfa831e6\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Actually, my question goes back to a question that wasn\u2019t addressed and resolved, and you made a determination on that that it was in scope, and that was from my colleague Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan. It was around the relationship between the Director of Regulation and the deputy secretary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EI think this is really important because we need to understand what the relationship is between this new role and the entire ministry, and what it practically, actually means. I think we\u2019ve heard a bit about the ideology around the reasons why the Associate Minister of Education has brought this to the committee, but we actually haven\u2019t heard about, exactly, practically, how it would work. This part is narrowly defined, but there is that question around that relationship between the Director of Regulation and the deputy secretaries and, indeed, the rest of the ministry as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EI also take the point made by Ingrid Leary around how these different regulations will follow through. We did talk about Te Tiriti o Waitangi in the previous part, but the question still remains around the benefits that come from Te Tiriti o Waitangi. I get that that side of the Chamber is allergic to Te Tiriti, but what about the things that it actually brings to the education sector\u2014the quality of te reo M\u0101ori, making sure that k\u014Dhanga reo and puna reo are resourced? How does this practically work? And how does that relationship work between this new Director of Regulation and the deputy secretaries? It is fuzzy and it is grey, and that has been highlighted by members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EMy questions are: what is that relationship between the Director of Regulation and the deputy secretaries, and, as an example, how will that work? For example, if we\u2019re not going to have Te Tiriti o Waitangi\u2014I think we should\u2014how are you going to ensure language and cultural competency matches M\u0101ori pedagogy, M\u0101ori-medium pedagogy, which supports the wellbeing of those tamariki and mokopuna?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc4914ebb0d24908afcfad79fc1d328b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc4914ebb0d24908afcfad79fc1d328b\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u00220fe0d207b13b40efb3e89a2097b83f33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fe0d207b13b40efb3e89a2097b83f33\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the debate on this question now close. All those in favour, say Aye, to the contrary No. A party vote has been called for. The Clerk will conduct a party vote. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022 data-id=\u00220867e008f3d847db9b8675265f0d473c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220867e008f3d847db9b8675265f0d473c\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chairperson. Sorry, but you didn\u2019t declare a result. Did the Ayes have it or did the Noes have it before a party vote was called for?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022188cd2e547594fa2a3a98714161c9e48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022188cd2e547594fa2a3a98714161c9e48\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I call it again\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fde28ea1e4784499bc53ae052c50e49f\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268bf91bdfe274a67bc9e931f9bc23bdd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014because I wasn\u2019t really listening to who was louder, which is usually carried by voice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002263861e35513d433386e4b11613a22eff\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022e177881c0a964ccaac6d273c41e1062b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e177881c0a964ccaac6d273c41e1062b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225eb8aa9b290841aa898456d69c00e96c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u002218287e79e69b4c118240b0b5a590ea92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218287e79e69b4c118240b0b5a590ea92\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to Schedule 1, inserting the words \u201Cin other legislation\u201D into clause 126 of new Part 7 of Schedule 1, is out of order as not being in the correct form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to Schedule 1, inserting the words \u201Cand responsibilities\u201D into clause 126 of new Part 7 of Schedule 1, is out of order as not being in the correct form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003EThe question is that Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to Schedule 1, inserting \u201Cand responsibilities\u201D into clause 127 of new Part 7 of Schedule 1, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d09997012fb74708acf5215ac969ff6f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022318cffd06e214c49adcb9f8957f4bc62\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022318cffd06e214c49adcb9f8957f4bc62\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to Schedule 1, inserting \u201Cpreviously\u201D into clause 127(1)(a) of new Part 7 of Schedule 1, is out of order as not offering a serious alternative form of words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003EThe question is that Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to Schedule 1, inserting \u201Cand is not near completion\u201D into clause 127(1)(b) of new Part 7 of Schedule 1, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e9fb9b450fd04a84afbe1e30b0169c03\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7cf2a2659ad43c7ba586296c68ce490\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7cf2a2659ad43c7ba586296c68ce490\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to Schedule 1, inserting \u201Cor persons\u201D into clause 127(1)(c) of new Part 7 of Schedule 1, is out of order as not offering a serious alternative form of words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003EThe question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to Schedule 1, inserting paragraph (d) into clause 127(1) of new Part 7 of Schedule 1, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fb79d1510594491ba9dacf02056d9a3f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u002273ac14e6e65b4643a4c0dfb8e1738b65\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273ac14e6e65b4643a4c0dfb8e1738b65\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to Schedule 1, amending clause 127(2) of new Part 7 of Schedule 1, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022eec97cd017cb4813806c1096c14298ca\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u00228a152bc8781540928437fd559b839887\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a152bc8781540928437fd559b839887\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to Schedule 1, replacing \u201Call\u201D with \u201Cand\u201D in clause 127(2) of new Part 7 of Schedule 1, is out of order as not being in the correct form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003EThe question is that Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to Schedule 1, amending clause 127(3) of new Part 7 of Schedule 1, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223fec451fd40a493ea4912cc4dcdd71fc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022507d3322fee949098e45fe4a5ea5439c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022507d3322fee949098e45fe4a5ea5439c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to Schedule 1, inserting paragraph (c) into clause 127(4) of new Part 7 of Schedule 1, relating to documents still considered to be given by the secretary, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022db728272565145308ffd0c83facb338c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u00226bc106b3fc624640a8bb3402f2936fad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226bc106b3fc624640a8bb3402f2936fad\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to Schedule 1, amending clause 126(5) of new Part 7 of Schedule 1, is out of order as not being in the correct form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003EThe question is that Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to Schedule 1, inserting paragraph (c) into clause 127(5) of new Part 7 of Schedule 1, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229ab3dca7ccf04fcda78dd01ce946519a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u00228a3fadd06c2742d393949746fc15f4c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a3fadd06c2742d393949746fc15f4c7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to Schedule 1, inserting paragraph (c) into clause 127(6) of new Part 7 of Schedule 1, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c10fa1a562434356a88694fe255ec245\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u00226bb1ff6e2e3b466aaca55f08fc45c112\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226bb1ff6e2e3b466aaca55f08fc45c112\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to Schedule 1, inserting \u201Cand is still held\u201D into clause 128 of new Part 7 of Schedule 1, is out of order as not being in the correct form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003EThe question is that Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to Schedule 1, amending clause 128 of new Part 7 of Schedule 1 to insert text relating to privacy protections, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225ad5b99207b94df2941b60be81317f89\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022fef95394cdaa4b668b9f2a5bbcb80f58\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fef95394cdaa4b668b9f2a5bbcb80f58\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to Schedule 1, deleting clause 129 of new Part 7 of Schedule 1, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221236dc00b0e14c51b7557ba12501ef18\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u00226ec1bf6a899e45a8a538b144143a1cc7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ec1bf6a899e45a8a538b144143a1cc7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to Schedule 1, amending clause 129 of new Part 7 of Schedule 1 to insert text relating to early childhood education as a public good, is out of order as not being in the correct form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to Schedule 1, amending clause 129 of new Part 7 of Schedule 1 to insert text relating to Te Tiriti o Waitangi, is out of order as not being in the correct form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226c648caedbd84df1a70615d3b3b8921b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022de291047721841059e056b2279fb036a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de291047721841059e056b2279fb036a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Schedule 2 set out on Amendment Paper 440 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022519ed6152b22478f89939d07d3c7c988\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u00221cc34abfe7174833be4126fde2b0872a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221cc34abfe7174833be4126fde2b0872a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendments to Schedule 2, inserting the words \u201Cand consequences\u201D in two places, are out of order as not offering a serious alternative form of words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002289a23bbf7bc24987b6ccd28fd93667e1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b01f2b334a1e4b77aba7f986db3c04ef\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3   \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022056f3ffadfb84f3297e58dc7a0fe5677\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022056f3ffadfb84f3297e58dc7a0fe5677\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to our final debate, which is the debate on clauses 1 to 3: \u201CTitle\u201D, \u201CCommencement\u201D, and \u201CPrincipal Act\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022e00b7dfdc7d84ba580da656eaf38206b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e00b7dfdc7d84ba580da656eaf38206b\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m going to be a little bit unorthodox and start on clause 3, regarding amending the principal Act. The reason is to question whether in fact this is ultra vires because of the Legislation Guidelines 2021 edition, where any amendment to a principal Act must serve the purpose and objective of the original Act or the policy objective of the new Act. It should not be inconsistent or contradictory. I\u2019m quoting there, pretty much, from what\u2019s known as the LDAC. That is the best-practice guideline for writing legislation, and there is a caveat that, if an amendment significantly changes fundamental features, the policy rationale must be clear, and coherence with existing law must be addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EAs the previous debates have shown, and as we can see with the regulatory impact statement (RIS), this really does call into question whether clause 3\u2014or can say that this Act truly amends the Education and Training Act 2020. When I read section 4, the purpose of that Act is to support the learning and development of every learner. It honours the partnership under Te Tiriti o Waitangi, and it supports M\u0101ori-Crown relations, and it also talks about having equitable outcome for learners. We do not see, particularly around Te Tiriti, anything in the amendment that supports the principal Act, and in fact by omission, and has been heard from submissions, that is undermined and is completely inconsistent in our view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EWhen we look at the RIS, we can also see that the bill is undertaking large structural changes that may have been better with a new Act rather than something disguised as an amendment Act with a completely different policy purpose. In fact, we haven\u2019t really heard what the problem definition is. I would quite like to hear it from this Minister. We didn\u2019t hear it from the previous Minister in the chair, but that may help us to be able to understand whether this clause 3 actually does conform to the LDAC guidelines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EGoing back to the RIS, we can see that the reform says it\u2019s to improve regulatory effectiveness and reduce compliance burden. We haven\u2019t had an explanation of what regulatory effectiveness means, and that certainly doesn\u2019t sound like it supports the primary function of the Education and Training Act, section 4, which is around the learning and development of every learner, supporting and honouring Te Tiriti and so on\u2014equitable outcomes. We do not know what a compliance burden is under this amendment Act. We don\u2019t know what it means in relation to accident reports, food handling, police vetting checks, and so on. We don\u2019t have a list of what is in and what is out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EPage 8 of the RIS talks again about the limited analysis of the impacts, costs, and benefits, so how do we know this does what it says it\u2019s going to do on the tin when the very purpose that it is saying that is going to achieve does not align with the principal Act as far as we can hear, particularly with the emphasis given to the labour market facilitation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThe other issue, I guess, is the legal problem that this creates, because, in our view, given the weak answers to the previous debate on the regulatory decisions and also this misalignment that is clear with the principal Act, it does call into question judicial reviews. It probably calls into question the defensibility of future regulatory decisions, and we really want to know how the Minister can justify making these major legislative amendments when the RIS has acknowledged such limited analysis on page 8, and also the lack of consultation on page 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThose are questions that are quite fundamental, but I think it\u2019s really important because, really, what we are seeing is a misalignment between this amendment and the principal Act. Why did the Minister not just introduce a bill to repeal the principal Act or create a new bill? Why are they calling it an amendment bill when it does not align and therefore is not good lawmaking if we apply the standards that are set out in the Legislation Guidelines 2021 edition? We will have more questions, too, on the title and commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u00229d381cb425b34a2d842b1d69ffb1414c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d381cb425b34a2d842b1d69ffb1414c\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I rise to make a contribution to this debate on the title and commencement. When you look at the title \u201CEducation and Training (Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill\u201D\u2014we have a number of education and training amendment bills come through this House on a regular basis\u2014it isn\u2019t what it says on the tin. I think we need to think about other terms to more accurately reflect what this bill does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EThere were a number of contributions made through the select committee process, but also through this committee of the whole House stage, and I think the Associate Minister of Education didn\u2019t adequately resolve those questions\u2014in particular, Te Tiriti o Waitangi. As numerous people said, our k\u014Dhanga reo and our puna reo have a very, very specific cultural pedagogy and language pedagogy built on the foundation of Te Tiriti o Waitangi. I get that that side is allergic to Te Tiriti o Waitangi; they\u2019re allergic to the constitutional founding document of this country and can\u2019t see that, actually, by including that in this legislation, it could go some way to helping to do the policy intent of this bill. We had a number of questions in the committee of the whole House which did highlight that as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EIf you\u2019re not going to have Te Tiriti o Waitangi as a part of the bill, how is the Director of Regulation going to ensure language quality assurance, cultural competency, if that isn\u2019t factored in? The ability to be able to speak te reo, the ability to do that in a fluent way which is matched with expertise, is something that would be required in order for this Director of Regulation to be able to do their job properly. My first suggestion for an amendment to the title and commencement is: \u201CThe Education and Training (Allergic to Te Tiriti o Waitangi Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill\u201D, because I think that will address more accurately the concerns that were brought to the select committee process but also brought in contributions by members across the Chamber today, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EThe other thing I would like to think about, as well, is around the opaque nature of some of the questions that were posed. I think they were reasonable questions that were posed to the Minister, questions around the impact of ratios\u2014that came up a number of times. I\u2019m sure it was me that was bringing it up, as well, because when I talk to early childcare providers, they talk about making sure that the working conditions of our teachers are the learning conditions of our tamariki. If you have good working conditions for your teachers, those are good learning conditions for your tamariki and mokopuna, so making sure that the ratios are well set for our babies and for our toddlers is incredibly, incredibly important. When we put questions to the Minister about whether this Director of Regulation would be able to intervene if they found that there were unsafe working conditions, the answer was \u201CWell, actually, they don\u2019t make policy; they just follow up on complaints.\u201D, so on and so forth, and kick the can down the road, when there is an opportunity to actually address that and to make this bill more useful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EAt the heart of it, this bill is ideological. I get it; we come to this House with ideas where we want to change our communities and our societies for the better, but those changes have to be practical. Those changes have to work. When we made contributions from this side of the committee to ask the Minister \u201CWell, actually, how is this going to work? How is it really actually going to work? You\u2019ve got this Director of Regulation\u2014how does it work with the Secretary of Education and the Deputy Secretary of Education?\u201D, what I can see is that this person will roll up to k\u014Dhanga reo, puna reo, and also to other places, and not have the skills to be able to do it, not have the ability to actually engage not just with M\u0101ori but with everybody else, as well. The real risk here is that the regulation that this Minister wants to dismantle within the Ministry of Education will just be replicated somewhere else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EMy other question to the Minister is around the commencement date. Given these concerns that have not been resolved by the previous Minister in the chair, will the Minister push out the commencement date so that these issues are resolved? After the Royal assent of this bill, what is in place to make sure that this Director of Regulation, and everything else with them, will be able to do the job properly? We cannot see that. I do not commend this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7fc563863744e448b4c3b85a9d09600\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7fc563863744e448b4c3b85a9d09600\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to follow from my colleague Teanau Tuiono and just to also check with the Minister if the Minister is happy to consider one of my amendments on the commencement date, particularly because, in the commencement date, this Act comes into force two months after Royal assent, but as my colleague Teanau Tuiono and also as the previous speaker, Ingrid Leary, has expressed, there are actually still a number of issues that haven\u2019t really been teased out throughout this stage. I think the Minister\u2019s response actually doesn\u2019t give the committee any confidence that the right settings are in place to ensure that something like this could be done within a two-month period. My question to the Minister is whether the Minister would consider my amendment, which pushes out, not by long\u2014not saying that it shouldn\u2019t, but it pushes it out from two months after Royal assent to six months after Royal assent. We have seen a number of other bills brought to the House which introduce new roles into a particular agency, etc., that do allow for a six-month period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ENow, my second thing is around the title. I do have another amendment on this that I genuinely want to engage with the Minister on, because, when we\u2019re looking at the bill, the title itself, in terms of early childhood education reform, doesn\u2019t necessarily express the content of this bill, mainly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cb13062c56a46589c50e69ab38cbc92\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s why we suggest you read it, Lawrence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221db2d45ffe424aafbcc19677b7c2770b\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: Would you like to take a call and just explain what the bill is? Because, frankly, I have read this bill thoroughly\u2014every single clause. What\u2019s clause 5?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232176adfb1c94b53baab28d8a6530063\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229847eb4635e042a8a97b0273ed4559e5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc95546120d84cdf8fa18cdab5f4ed0f\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Chair. I think the member just offered to yield so that I could take a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ecec05a6eaf4172b8cce54dcbfb788e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I did not hear him offering to yield. I heard him offering you a chance to make a speech, so I will go back to Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022635760964edf43019108868427ab77c7\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. You too can take a call, Mr Simon Court. Now, in terms of this bill, the majority of the bill is to do with regulations. You know, we have a new Director of Regulation. We have changes to the regulatory systems in terms of Schedule 2. I think just saying \u201Cearly childhood education reform\u201D makes it sound much broader than it really covers, because there are certain areas here that are quite narrow. My changes to the title that I\u2019m proposing to the Minister are simply changing from \u201C(Early Childhood Education Reform)\u201D to \u201C(Early Childhood Education Regulatory Reform)\u201D, because that seems to be more in line with what we\u2019re seeing in Part 1, particularly clause 5 to clause 13, in fact, as well as Schedule 2 and Part 2. Those two are my two amendments that I would like the Minister\u2019s engagement on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022 data-id=\u002224606510fff24ee4b62b212b809d740e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224606510fff24ee4b62b212b809d740e\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Vocational Education):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I will answer the member Ingrid Leary\u2019s questions first, and I can confirm that the Education and Training (Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill does indeed conform to legislative guidelines. I can also advise that there is no misalignment with the principal Act; it does support the purpose of the principal Act, and remind the member that the principal Act goes across the whole of the education sector: early childhood education, compulsory, through to tertiary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003EI thank the two members of the Green Party for their generous offers of amendments, but we won\u2019t be accepting those. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022 data-id=\u00227273f3fe0cdf407b9bb0afdae930406a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227273f3fe0cdf407b9bb0afdae930406a\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have some supplementary questions regarding the commencement and then the title. Basically, the question is: what is the basis of the two-month period? What is the evidence base that the Associate Minister of Education used, or was it a time frame as part of a coalition deal that perhaps wasn\u2019t on paper but occurred behind closed doors?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThe reason I bring that up is that, once again, we are in urgency in this House. We\u2019ve got a very rapid time frame, and it\u2019s not just us who are saying it and it\u2019s not just the submitters either\u2014it\u2019s the regulatory impact statement (RIS). On page 47 and page 48, the RIS highlights that the implementation time frames are compressed, and it even says that the Minister intends to bring changes in rapidly. My question is: why do we need to have these changes introduced rapidly rather than go through them in a less hurried way and have better lawmaking?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EAlso, on page 8, it talks about tight constraints on the options considered. It talks about a rushed timeline. We have already raised the confusion risks that arise, but unfortunately the RIS also, on page 30, raises those as arising from structural transitions that are going to be exacerbated with a rushed timeline.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThen we have concerns that have been specifically raised with insufficient planning for M\u0101ori medium and also for rural providers. I say this as the member for Taieri, where we have a number of rural providers who have got very small infrastructure and who are feeling really shocked at the prospect of having to suddenly conform to this new amendment within two months. Why the rush for those? They are amongst those who have capacity risk, which the RIS has highlighted on page 47 and page 48\u2014that\u2019s the rural sector, but also actually M\u0101ori-medium providers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThe question is: where did the time frame come from? Is it like many of the things we hear in this House, which is that it is part of a coalition agreement? We\u2019ve already had the Auditor-General say that executive decisions should not be based on coalition agreements; they should be based on evidence and the good executive powers of lawmaking, not political agreements. If there is an evidence base for it or another reason apart from the coalition agreement, we would really like to hear it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EMy second request is that if the Minister is not going to entertain the really useful suggestions by the Green Party members about a short stay of execution, if you like\u2014a little bit of charity or perhaps compassion, particularly towards some of those M\u0101ori-medium providers and rural providers\u2014would the Minister entertain a carve-out so that the commencement date could be for bigger providers who probably have been planning and will have bigger infrastructure to be able to respond to the changes that are required; that maybe they could have the two months, but as a fall-back? Perhaps M\u0101ori-medium providers and rural providers, in particular, could have a longer period of around six months just to be able to get their systems in order so that they are not left behind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThe other question I would have about the commencement is: has she received any advice about what the impact of the commencement date two months after Royal assent would have on any of the transitional arrangements to do with, for example, licensing? We\u2019ve seen in Schedule 2 that many of those changes where the powers go from the secretary to the director involve licensing arrangements, and those are not to be taken lightly\u2014they\u2019re things that allow early childhood centres to operate and the framework in which to operate and to ensure that they do so safely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EAlso, if some of them are involved in complaints processes or want to take a judicial review, is there a way that there could be a carve-out so that, if they are currently in a transition and they can identify that in a sensible way, perhaps the Act does not apply to them for the six months, in the same case as the rural early childhood centres and playcentres and also the M\u0101ori-medium providers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229a9c205f95fc4f5c8943b440b9f5cb1d\u0022 data-id=\u0022839dc09ecdaf440e8f17140a6ed2e54e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229a9c205f95fc4f5c8943b440b9f5cb1d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022839dc09ecdaf440e8f17140a6ed2e54e\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6e356c9b9c74db8bfac2dcdf1a65305\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6e356c9b9c74db8bfac2dcdf1a65305\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just a final question, really, on the title, and I have heard some really good titles coming from the Greens. As you\u2019ve heard, I have some reservations about whether this actually even aligns with the original Education and Training Act, and although the Minister for Vocational Education, the Hon Penny Simmonds, referred to the umbrella, I guess, almost omnibus kind of character of the original legislation, she did not explain how this legislation conforms with the Legislation Guidelines. I haven\u2019t heard an assurance that there has been a quality assurance on that or what kind of checks have been made, particularly because we are in urgency. I\u2019d like to know, for example, whether Parliamentary Counsel Office did do an LDAC check or whether we just take the Minister\u2019s word for that. That would be really useful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EIn terms of the bill names that could perhaps be used to replace \u201CEducation and Training (Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill\u201D, it could be something shorter and pithier like \u201C(Profits Before Kids)\u201D bill. It could be the \u201C(ECE Minus Te Tiriti)\u201D bill. That one in particular I think would be quite useful, because it really spells out that Te Tiriti is not there, and we did not get a clear answer from Minister Seymour about whether Te Tiriti obligations were implicit, even though they were not explicit. To really get around that confusion, we could just say that and say \u201C(ECE Minus Te Tiriti)\u201D bill. We could have \u201C(Risking Kids\u2019 Wellbeing)\u201D bill. I\u2019m not sure that one would land, so probably won\u2019t do that one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EPerhaps a more sensible one, and this would apply depending on the answer to the previous question around the timing and whether that\u2019s part of a coalition deal, would be the \u201C(Coalition Education Agreement)\u201D bill. That would be really useful, because it would also highlight that many of the things that have been agreed to in the bill are not on an evidence basis, because the consultation hasn\u2019t been done. If they are to be done through coalition agreements, let\u2019s be transparent about it. I think capturing the name of that in the title of the bill would do that. It may possibly, then, also call into question whether there needs to be an Auditor-General process to actually see if the executive should be doing that, because certainly, in the case of some of the other things that have happened, they\u2019ve been told they shouldn\u2019t rely on that, and that has come from the Auditor-General. I\u2019m thinking about the Gumboot Friday agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EMy final suggestion would be \u201C(Centralising Education Powers)\u201D bill. I thought about this one really carefully, because it does centralise the power of\u2014it vests a lot of power in the Minister. Even though on the tin it looks like it\u2019s separating the powers, and the Minister himself tried to say this is around good regulation that requires separation of powers between the secretary and the director, what we know from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development report is that, in fact, in education it\u2019s better to have one regulatory system. When we get forensically into what those powers look like and what the reporting lines are, we discover that, in fact, there is a lot of say with the Minister over the director and there is virtually no say from the Ministry of Education, so in some ways it could be called \u201C(Centralising Education)\u201D and in another way it could be called \u201C(Obfuscating)\u201D\u2014but that\u2019s a very hard word to say. That\u2019s why I didn\u2019t put it in the title that I was going to suggest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EI think \u201C(Centralising Education Powers)\u201D bill would be quite good, because I think also then it just kind of points to the trend under this Government, who have a centralising direction of travel in Ministers. We\u2019ve seen it with fast-track legislation. We\u2019ve seen it with taking decision making away from localities. We\u2019ve seen it with the undermining of local government. There is all of this kind of vested power in Ministers. Then what we\u2019re seeing is the creation of this director role, which is purported to be one thing but is actually really just about vesting more power in the Minister. I probably could have called it the \u201C(Vesting Power in the Minister)\u201D bill, but I don\u2019t think that would get through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EI really would like the Minister to consider the \u201C(Continuing Education Power)\u201D bill or the \u201C(Coalition Education Agreement)\u201D bill, and if the Minister was inclined to do the latter, then giving us some certainty about what agreements took place around the timing, what the rush is about\u2014the two months. Why are we trying to do it this side of Christmas? Has it got anything to do with election year? And why can we not support our rural communities and M\u0101ori-medium providers in particular, who are really going to have to grapple with the stress that this is going to cause them within a very short time frame?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022 data-id=\u00225a365529ccc049d5a6153ee5650d1d08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a365529ccc049d5a6153ee5650d1d08\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ea8c0bebe902461a96228dbf944af5c1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022c21520da4881429cafd1ed9d37f14b84\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c21520da4881429cafd1ed9d37f14b84\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 1 replacing \u201Creform\u201D with \u201Ccentralisation\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dc5304644cfa4793a55e799e8838e1a6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022beb9381016324c7c871ea69539b3f40f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022beb9381016324c7c871ea69539b3f40f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Arena Williams\u2019 remaining two tabled amendments to clause 1 are out of order as not being objective descriptions of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003EThe question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 1 replacing \u201Cearly childhood education reform\u201D with \u201Cearly childhood education regulatory reform\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022710e1b66ca9846b1ba5297bbc53fe45c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002279f8e28947874413929aa43e3b8cd796\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u002225fb14bdbcd74459ac129003cc44c015\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225fb14bdbcd74459ac129003cc44c015\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to clause 2 set out on Amendment Paper 440 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226fc67eb027e14bbcb6adfe310148de10\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b52d14b68f1c4d73b6e284e3eaefae9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b52d14b68f1c4d73b6e284e3eaefae9e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Jan Tinetti\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 2 is out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u2019 three tabled amendments to clause 2 are out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 2 is out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fa3aa9c72c6c499dad7562c317d51a24\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0cf46c3cda74ca1b203f004c37b1544\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0cf46c3cda74ca1b203f004c37b1544\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Arena Williams\u2019 two tabled amendments to clause 3 are out of order as not being in the correct form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022680411f7c14947ceb501010b03b162c5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000870\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000871\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe4ac14530a7471f8006a2a9c2de1369\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe4ac14530a7471f8006a2a9c2de1369\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Education and Training (Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill and reports it with amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a479ccbf34a84918b31aaefa9350d7aa\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000873\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0ae0f973d354ce0b72975531257b339\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0ae0f973d354ce0b72975531257b339\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for third reading immediately. However, it is time for us to stop for the dinner break. The House is suspended until 7 o\u2019clock.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 5.56 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cae2d24807034f5ea7405c3aeb66fccd\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u002205439a59c7484fec9fb25737d56298c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205439a59c7484fec9fb25737d56298c5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Right, the House is resumed. Welcome back, everyone. When we finished, prior to the dinner break, we were about to start the third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222920838580534015892dca5aaa818cf6\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd2c88abf5c84bee85cc6d93aace0556\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222920838580534015892dca5aaa818cf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd2c88abf5c84bee85cc6d93aace0556\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Associate Minister of Education: I move, That the Education and Training (Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208294540ba554ea1828303e54af5640a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222920838580534015892dca5aaa818cf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225693b53ca4c142a68dbd3e91b18f3c71\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m pleased to bring this bill to its third reading. Today marks an important milestone in reforming the early childhood education (ECE) regulatory system. To recap for the House: this bill is part of the Government\u2019s response to the Ministry for Regulation\u2019s regulatory review of the early childhood education sector. The review identified a number of issues with the approach to regulating ECE, in particular the following: a lack of clarity around regulatory decision-making; a lack of role clarity and accountability of the regulator; and, thirdly, a reactive approach to compliance monitoring. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222920838580534015892dca5aaa818cf6\u0022\u003EThe bill addresses these issues so that parents who use licensed or certificated early childhood services can have confidence that their children will receive quality education from a service provider that is supported and incentivised to keep children safe while in their care. The Director of Regulation, a new role established by the bill, will be responsible for licensing and certificating services and for proactively monitoring and enforcing compliance with regulations that are underpinned by a clear legislative purpose and objectives. The Director of Regulation will also be required to adhere to guiding principles that make children\u2019s health, safety, and wellbeing paramount. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222920838580534015892dca5aaa818cf6\u0022\u003EThe bill has clarified the purposes and objectives for the regulatory system. Service providers will have greater clarity and certainty about regulatory requirements. They will also receive information, support, and guidance from the Director of Regulation on how to meet these requirements. The bill enables regulations to be made that would allow the Director of Regulation to use a graduated set of enforcement tools. This would enable more proportionate approaches to be taken to enforcement than is possible under the current regulations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222920838580534015892dca5aaa818cf6\u0022\u003EThe bill\u2019s commencement date was amended at committee of the whole House to be 23 February 2026. On this date, the role of the Director of Regulation will be established in the Ministry of Education. As has been said at first and second readings, responsibility for these regulatory functions and the role of the Director of Regulation will be transferred from the Ministry of Education to the Education Review Office by a separate bill. This will address the lack of clarity and consistency the review identified in relation to regulatory decision-making. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222920838580534015892dca5aaa818cf6\u0022\u003EThe Government is committed to the successful implementation of this bill, which will update the early childhood education regulatory system and align it with good regulatory design and practice and improve its effectiveness. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5b8c3694fcc4a0cb4ed5a7f1c8a4456\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5b8c3694fcc4a0cb4ed5a7f1c8a4456\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022 data-id=\u0022383890093f4346a5af363c6a93066eb7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022383890093f4346a5af363c6a93066eb7\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Thank you for the opportunity to make a contribution in the third reading of the Education and Training (Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill. Sadly, in the committee stage that we have just completed, none of our suggested name changes made it through the amendment process, so I suppose that\u2019s the one we\u2019re going with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003EI just want to make a few high-level comments before going into some of the detailed points that we want to make in terms of this bill. I think it\u2019s really important for those that are listening at home to understand that this bill shifts the focus away from children, who should be at the heart of any changes to early childhood education. The role early childhood education plays in a child\u2019s life is immense, and what happens in their early years, including how they learn, affects them for ever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003ENarrowing the focus on the kids and loosening the rules from centres may result in greater risk of harmful situations and lower quality of education, and this opens the door to early childhood education (ECE) centres operating at the bare minimum for profit, which will erode the quality of our youngest children\u2019s learning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003EIt was really concerning to receive really thoughtful submissions and contributions from the public and two that I want to highlight, in particular, in this contribution, are the submissions from the ECE Parents Council Aotearoa. Early on, they say they are disappointed in the lack of consultation in the development of this bill, that it has been rushed, it was opaque, and it compromised consultation. What the ECE Parents Council of Aotearoa say is that it excluded the very stakeholders it claims to serve\u2014that\u2019s parents, families, and wh\u0101nau. They say that by sidelining parents\u2019 voices and experiences with ECE, the process undermines the legitimacy and any resulting changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003EThey also pointed out in their submission, as was pointed out by many of the contributions in the committee of the whole House stage, that this waters down M\u0101ori as tangata whenua and Te Tiriti o Waitangi. Many times, the opportunity was put to the Minister to engage in debate on that, to consider amendments put forward by my colleagues, to answer questions, but the Minister was very dismissive, yet submitters highlighted that there is an omission of Te Tiriti o Waitangi. One of the central criticisms is its failure to acknowledge Te Tiriti o Waitangi. We talked about k\u014Dhanga reo, we talked about puna reo, but we also talked about all early childhood centres.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003ESo the bill does not recognise M\u0101ori as tangata whenua nor ensure M\u0101ori participation in decision making, and the concerns persist that M\u0101ori language, culture, and pedagogies will not be adequately supported and the omission threatens aspirations for bicultural and culturally responsive ECEs. The ECE Parents Council says that the design hides major quality reductions behind intimidating jargon and complexity for wh\u0101nau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003EOne of the key concerns raised is not having children at the centre of the purpose of early childhood education. Many submitters pointed out that the inclusion of and embedding of workforce participation as a core purpose\u2014a core purpose\u2014shifts ECE away from child development and learning and family support. Education legislation, they say, should have tamariki and their learning at its centre\u2014social, emotional, physical and cognitive\u2014rather than adult employment needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003EI want to also draw on the submission that we received from Mana Mokopuna, the Children\u2019s Commissioner. They too pointed out that this was being pushed through while things were still being worked through, that it fails to ensure the rights of mokopuna are the first and primary consideration in ECE regulation and decision making, and also that it fails to ensure that Te Tiriti o Waitangi is a primary consideration in ECE regulation and decision making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003EThey recommended that actually this bill be paused until work on all the proposed reforms had been completed and further consultation was undertaken with key stakeholders on final reform proposals. They also recommended that the Government undertakes a child impact assessment on the final reform proposals to ensure they uphold children\u2019s rights and prevent or mitigate negative consequences for children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003EThey also, though, given that the Government is clear that it wasn\u2019t going to pause or slow down, or\u2014you know, we had questions and contributions on the commencement date and those suggestions around that were also dismissed. So Mana Mokopuna had made recommendations that if the bill were to proceed, there were a number of things that it should be amended to, which included recognising and protecting all children\u2019s rights under the children\u2019s convention\u2014sadly, that was ignored in the previous stage; explicitly stating that children\u2019s rights are the first and paramount consideration in ECE regulation and decision making\u2014sadly, it isn\u2019t, and parents working is in there with the primary objectives of these changes; clearly state Te Tiriti o Waitangi must be given effect in ECE regulation and decision making\u2014I don\u2019t think anybody in the House is surprised that the Minister David Seymour rejected that suggestion\u2014and require the Director of Regulation to undertake the child impact assessments to ensure they are exercising their functions, duties, and powers consistently with the children\u2019s convention and Te Tiriti o Waitangi\u2014again, all ignored in the previous committee of the whole House stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003EThere are real concerns that this is going to lead to the lowering of the quality and the deregulation in the early childhood sector. Recently, I attended a kindergarten meeting on behalf of the Hon Jan Tinetti, who cannot be here today to give the speech as she is remembering, along with others, Pike River and the anniversary of that event. So I attended that meeting on her behalf, and they played a documentary about what has happened in Australia\u2014the prioritising of the privatisation of early childhood education, the profit-making in early childhood education, the deregulation in the sector, and the disastrous impact that that has had. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003EIt was really concerning to all of us who were at that meeting that it feels like and looks like, and here tonight we have in the third reading steps that could be working towards a very similar situation that we are seeing in Australia. So we only have to look across the Ditch to see the disastrous impacts of deregulation in the early childhood sector education sector could have here in Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003ESo we raised these concerns, these points, and we put forward amendments for the Minister to consider. We outlined the concerns of submitters: parent voices ignored, the voice of Mana Mokopuna, the Children\u2019s Commissioner ignored. Whose voices are being prioritised in this legislation change? Once again, I have to remind the House that this is actually as a result of a coalition agreement. The regulatory impact statement pointed out that there is a problem definition, that there has been a rushed process, there hasn\u2019t been sufficient consultation, there is evidence lacking in many areas, and we should all be very concerned here in the House tonight that this type of lawmaking is once again going on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003ELast week, I stood and talked about how policies were not educational; they were ideological, and here is another example of that. It is political and ideological and it is based on something the Minister campaigned on and negotiated into a coalition agreement. It does not put children, our babies, at the centre of this decision making. We do not commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u00226f56db73ec3a4c2e98e42b6ed747cf63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f56db73ec3a4c2e98e42b6ed747cf63\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the member, can I just remind members about referencing members who are not in the House. Just a reminder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224deadc42285246239fb3cadb72099c9f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Chair. I\u2019m aware of the convention and Speakers\u2019 rulings on not mentioning the absence of people who aren\u2019t here, but the Speakers\u2019 rulings do also point out that there is a balance to be struck and that there are instances where the absence of a member is so significant that it\u2019s appropriate to identify the fact that they\u2019ve chosen not to participate in the House at that given time. So I\u2019m just wondering whether you\u2019re saying that the member\u2019s reference recently didn\u2019t meet that threshold, or whether you\u2019re just making an observation for our guidance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbe87065543d4e5fb85406cd13543216\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbe87065543d4e5fb85406cd13543216\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, wonder away, but it was a general reminder to members. I\u2019ve done it on several occasions in the last couple of weeks, but obviously we need to keep remembering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u002271a1150d13844921939c443e1fd6bdb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271a1150d13844921939c443e1fd6bdb4\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. For the House , the context of this bill is that the Associate Minister of Education essentially wants to\u2014to put it plainly\u2014destroy our education system. But how did we get to this stage in the first place? Well, like the previous speaker, Willow-Jean Prime, said, it all started with the coalition agreement and also with the desire that they are going to get the Ministry for Regulation to do this survey and then consult on what is going to be happening. Yet as we see from the report of that bill, and as I see when this bill went through select committee stage when we did ask the Minister questions, when we did ask officials questions\u2014there wasn\u2019t a clear link between what they produced and what is being produced here as the final form of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EDespite the fact that, during the committee stage, the Minister said on multiple occasions that this has been consulted on, we\u2019ve done a survey. That survey is not the same thing as a bill and a consultation on a particular bill\u2014as we\u2019ve seen in the regulatory impact statement and as the officials themselves have expressed. The bottom line of this\u2014and, again, as we are drawing on different resources because, as we said, the consultation process has been opaque\u2014is the fact that it\u2019s about cost, but not actually about children or safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EOne should expect that children are being placed at the centre when we are making decisions on education, but it is not the case with this bill. In fact, for a political party and for a Government who love to talk about red and green tape, we\u2019re seeing an awful lot of blue and yellow tape when it comes to bills like this and the introduction of a ministry or the introduction of the Director of Regulations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EBut on this bill and what some of this bill is doing, I think it needs to be mentioned, first and foremost, the lack of Te Tiriti o Waitangi in this bill. The fact remains that Te Tiriti o Waitangi is for everyone. We have a Minister in the chair who wants to talk about, \u201CWell, what happens for the Chinese people?\u201D You know, as a Chinese person, I can say, hand on heart\u2014which the Minister couldn\u2019t\u2014that Te Tiriti is for everyone, that tauiwi [non-M\u0101ori] of colour are here to honour Te Tiriti o Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EWhat we are seeing is that the Director of Regulation will also be overseeing k\u014Dhanga reo and puna reo. But there is no requirement for this director to have any understanding of Te Tiriti o Waitangi; any understanding of what is expected of that person when it comes to the oversight and potentially setting policies and potentially even intervening and assessing and quality controlling k\u014Dhanga reo or puna reo without an understanding of Te Tiriti o Waitangi. As we see in the state of te reo M\u0101ori report by Te Taura Whiri i te Reo M\u0101ori, the number of k\u014Dhanga reo or M\u0101ori-medium early childhood education (ECE) centres in Aotearoa has reduced. That should be a concern for everyone in this House. That should be what we\u2019re discussing here. That should be what we\u2019re seeing in terms of the bill in front of us, how we place our tamariki and mokopuna at the centre of our decision making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EBut, no, instead what we see is a bill that creates more bureaucracy and shifts the obligation from the Ministry of Education (MOE)\u2014from the Secretary for Education\u2014into this ephemeral Director of Regulation that the Minister himself, through the committee stage, could not clearly articulate what that person is really going to do. To be fair, the Minister spent a lot of the contributions in the committee stage throwing little comments and patronising comments here and there about like, \u201COh, that member isn\u2019t listening.\u201D You know, that\u2019s fine. Kei te pai. We forgive that Minister. We know the Minister has been a little bit sensitive recently considering all of the other projects within education have failed and fallen flat on that Minister\u2019s face, but it still doesn\u2019t excuse that Minister and the Government from introducing a bill that is going to actively harm our tamariki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EWhat is also peculiar about this bill\u2014and, you know, again, the Minister liked to, during the committee stage, talk about the fact that, in terms of the principles, the purpose, in terms of the objectives, that\u2019s existing in the current legislation. But you know what isn\u2019t existing in the current legislation? The idea that ECE is there to support parents to work. That is the most peculiar thing to put in the Education and Training Act. The Government is saying, \u201CYou know what? We want our early childhood education system to be in place, and its sole purpose is so that you can spend as little time from your children as possible.\u201D That is what is happening here and that\u2019s what that clause is really saying. Rather than saying we want to provide jobs, we want to provide sufficient resources so that way for families, for wh\u0101nau, they\u2019re able to spend as much time as possible with their children, with their tamariki, what we\u2019re seeing is now that a purpose of this bill is, \u201CWe want you to just work and leave your child to be babysat by ECE.\u201D That is what it\u2019s saying here in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThe thing is the Minister talked a lot about what\u2019s happening here. But to be honest, talk is cheap. There is no substantial evidence in here and no international evidence that we can see where, if we have an ECE system that does not centre the experience of the children and the staff who work in those ECE centres and the teachers but instead focuses on the privatisation of ECEs and how we can squeeze as much money out of parents as we can, there\u2019s no international evidence that that is going to provide a safe space where tamariki will have a sense of belonging, where they\u2019re able to learn, and where they\u2019re able to thrive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EWe have seen evidence in Australia of what happens when you deregulate the ECE sector. We have seen harm to their children, and we have seen systemic harm to their children. Because, you know what? For the governing members, this is going to be their legacy: the legacy of putting our children in harm\u2019s way. Every single parent, when we\u2019re looking at the survey that\u2019s being produced, I do acknowledge the fact that for parents, the most important issue\u2014the most important thing for them\u2014is to ensure that their child is safe in the ECE centre. Because that is their taonga that they are placing in the hands of someone else. That should be what\u2019s really important here. But what are some of the criteria that ensure safety and health? Not a Director of Regulation. No, it is having good ratios, it is having qualified teachers, it is putting children above profit. They are the things that are going to be benefiting. They are the things that are going to be most reassuring for our parents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI gave the Minister an example of the play sand and asbestos that we\u2019re seeing currently that\u2019s a live issue. And the Minister couldn\u2019t even respond on how the Director of Regulation would work with MOE in that situation to resolve the issue. If the Minister himself could not even respond on a bill that he has introduced, what confidence should the public have on this bill and on their vision and this Government\u2019s vision for early childhood education?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EBut what I will finish with is the Green Party has a solution. In our Green Budget, we have made a commitment that we will bring ECE into the public system like schools. We will make sure that there are qualified teachers in our ECE centres. We will ensure that Te Tiriti is front and centre in ECEs because it benefits all children. We will ensure that the teachers are well remunerated and well resourced for the work that we do, because we are here for our children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022 data-id=\u00227dc77deb09514ad7b88a8fba955b403f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227dc77deb09514ad7b88a8fba955b403f\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. On the same day that the Education and Workforce Committee sat in this building and heard from the Education Review Office on the implementation of maths and English, and the success that that has been\u2014unprecedented success\u2014we continue to have an Opposition that says no, that doubts, that doesn\u2019t want to have confidence in a Government that\u2019s actually delivering educational results for parents. So trust that this bill, in relation to early childhood education, does what it says on the tin. For once\u2014for once\u2014I ask the Opposition to just say, \u201CHey, we\u2019re going to support this because this is a Government that\u2019s delivering for parents and for education.\u201D I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022 data-id=\u0022afa87489ea124c50baa15b4a963f16b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022afa87489ea124c50baa15b4a963f16b4\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I think the Opposition is reading a different bill to the bill that I think we on this side of the House are reading. They talked about profit in the early childcare centre area; that\u2019s been around for years. There\u2019s been a strong private sector component to the delivery of early childhood education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThe second thing they talked about is saying that the child is not at the centre. I invite them to look at new section 14, inserted by clause 5 of this bill. What does it start with? It starts \u201Cset and implement minimum\u201D\u2014so you\u2019ve got to be above that \u201Cstandards to provide for quality early childhood education that allows all children to establish strong foundations for learning, well-being, and life outcomes;\u201D. That sounds like putting the child at the centre.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThe second bit there they talked about is the choice of parents to go to work. Well, guess what! That\u2019s the reality. Most parents want to get out and go to work and have their children be looked after properly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThe next two things: they\u2019ve also talked about the safety of their children\u2014that is one of the supporting objectives right below that\u2014and then improving educational development outcomes for those children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EI think they\u2019re reading a different bill to the one that we\u2019re reading. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d9b529755d2b4a78a373977edaec4209\u0022 data-id=\u002276f5db96aef54119ae7fe7ff7006d89c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d9b529755d2b4a78a373977edaec4209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276f5db96aef54119ae7fe7ff7006d89c\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka. T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. E t\u016B ana ahau ki te waha i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero m\u0101 Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori i te p\u014D nei, me t\u0113nei pire e h\u0101ngai ana ki te m\u0101tauranga.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d9b529755d2b4a78a373977edaec4209\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Madam Speaker. Greetings to us all in the House. I stand to give voice to the comments on behalf of the M\u0101ori Party tonight and this bill that relates to education.]  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d9b529755d2b4a78a373977edaec4209\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori opposes this bill, which in our view applies regulatory standards principles to early childhood education (ECE), in a violation of Te Tiriti o Waitangi, while placing profits over the wellbeing of our mokopuna. This bill completely flies in the face of proven kaupapa M\u0101ori movements and efforts to restore the rightful place of tikanga and te reo M\u0101ori in the only country that will for ever remain the permanent home of taonga tuku iho, inherited to us by our t\u016Bpuna. E te iwi, we continue to see sustained attacks on M\u0101ori initiatives, undermining kaupapa M\u0101ori education, pushing policies on to our wh\u0101nau, and championing privatisation over whakapapa. Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori stands with our people, who are the only true kaitiaki safeguarding one of the most important M\u0101ori institutions ever created by our kuia and koroua. We stand with you in full opposition to the direction this Government intends to take on M\u0101ori education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d9b529755d2b4a78a373977edaec4209\u0022\u003EEducation should be led by experts, not economists. The whakapapa of this bill shows that these reforms never had the best interest of our tamariki at heart. Econo\u2014econom\u2014t\u0113nei reo P\u0101keh\u0101, he \u0101hua uaua m\u014Dku [this English language, it\u2019s a bit difficult for me]. Me k\u014Drero au i roto i te reo M\u0101ori, he pai noa iho t\u0113r\u0101. Ko ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata e whai p\u0113hi nui ana ki te ao penapena moni, nui ake i ng\u0101 kaiako i roto i te kura. Ko ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata kua whai wheako i roto i ng\u0113nei momo w\u0101hi, i roto i ng\u0101 kura kaupapa, kua kitea ka utaina ko Te Whare Tapawh\u0101 o te tamaiti, i mua r\u0101 an\u014D i te p\u016Btea.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d9b529755d2b4a78a373977edaec4209\u0022\u003E[I should speak in M\u0101ori; that\u2019s quite easy. The people who are subjected to suppression in the financial savings sector, they are more than just teachers within schools. The people who have experience in these types of places, within kura kaupapa, it has been seen that the holistic health of the child is addressed long before any funds.]  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d9b529755d2b4a78a373977edaec4209\u0022\u003ELowering safety, building, and teaching standards will reduce the quality of our early childhood education. This bill will push the wages of early childhood educators down by removing the need for qualifications. Now our kaiako, holders of one of the most important roles in society, who have been historically underpaid, are having their wages diminished even further. They will suffer, the quality of teaching will suffer, and, ultimately, our mokopuna will receive a worse-quality education, all because of this Government\u2019s agenda to maximise corporate profits. There is no table fit to make decisions about the education of mokopuna M\u0101ori [M\u0101ori grandchildren] without K\u014Dhanga Reo and Te R\u016Bnanga Nui o ng\u0101 Kura Kaupapa M\u0101ori at it. They are more equipped than any Government body to know what our tamariki need, not just in the classrooms but for their future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d9b529755d2b4a78a373977edaec4209\u0022\u003EThis bill is a violation of Te Tiriti o Waitangi. It will remove the legal requirements for the ECE sector to acknowledge M\u0101ori as tangata whenua, to support children\u2019s rights to cultural confidence, and to teach our tamariki about Te Tiriti o Waitangi and our history. This is a continuation of the assimilation agenda that has dominated the education system since the Native Schools Act 1867. We cannot afford to take a step backwards in early education. We cannot return to a time where m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori was sidelined and speaking te reo M\u0101ori was punished. Research shows that a strong sense of identity is central to the success of tamariki M\u0101ori. Instead of removing Te Tiriti responsibilities, defunding key programmes, and continuing to allocate just 1 percent of the total education budget funding to M\u0101ori education, the Government should be investing in the M\u0101ori educational systems that are already delivering for our tamariki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d9b529755d2b4a78a373977edaec4209\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, as it currently stands, this bill will violate Te Tiriti o Waitangi, harm our kaiako, and harm our mokopuna. The Government must be held accountable for its commitments to the recommendations made in Wai 2336. That\u2019s means creating stand-alone legislation with policies specifically designed to support M\u0101ori education and give wh\u0101nau real, meaningful choices. Our mokopuna deserve an education system shaped by their needs, which must be led by the total immersion M\u0101ori education sector. Ko ng\u0101 hua kei roto, ko ng\u0101 rongo\u0101 kei roto i t\u0113nei ko te uta i ng\u0101 penapenanga moni ki ng\u0101 kura kaupapa, ki ng\u0101 k\u014Dhanga reo puta noa i te motu. T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koutou.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d9b529755d2b4a78a373977edaec4209\u0022\u003E[The benefits within, the solutions within this, are the contribution of financial savings to M\u0101ori medium schools, to k\u014Dhanga reo all across the nation. Thank you all.]  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2e558258d2749a2aa6a9bc1a05ae539\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2e558258d2749a2aa6a9bc1a05ae539\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Greens, supporting the comments by my friend Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan. I begin with a whakatauk\u012B. The whakatauk\u012B goes, \u201CKo te manu e kai ana i te miro, n\u014Dna te ngahere; ko te manu e kai ana i te m\u0101tauranga, n\u014Dna te ao\u201D.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E[The bird that partakes of the berry, theirs is the forest; the bird that partakes of knowledge, theirs is the world.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EThe people over there might appreciate that. The bird that partakes of the berries of the forest, their domain is the forest. But the bird that partakes of the berries of knowledge, their domain is the world. The issue there is, of course, what happens if you privatise those berries? What happens if you swap out those juicy berries and replace them with burnt school lunches? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EAs we were going through the committee stage, I was reading the select committee report and I was worried. I was worried about the digestive tracts of our National Party colleagues who once again have to swallow another \u201CBurnt School Lunch (ACT Party) Bill\u201D, because we\u2019ve had the Regulatory Standards Bill go through the House, we, of course, have the Ministry for Regulation, and now within this bill we have a Director of Regulation. It\u2019s Orwellian in its reach. It\u2019s Orwellian and its doublespeak because who is going to regulate the regulators? These people are going to trip over themselves trying to do the job, and trip over themselves to figure out what exactly they are doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EWhen we posed questions to the Minister at the committee of the whole House stage, the answers were less than fruitful. I only have to look at the select committee report and notice that, actually, the commentary which comprises the differing views outweighs the rest of the report. I could only surmise that there was a bit of Stockholm syndrome happening for our National Party colleagues who were forced to once again push through another ACT Party bill under duress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EOne of the questions that we asked the Minister, and I think it\u2019s really important to put on record again in this third reading, was about the role of the Te Tiriti o Waitangi. I get that that side is completely allergic to Te Tiriti o Waitangi. They are allergic to the constitution, they are allergic to the founding document of our country, but it actually is important. It is an important document and there are a lot of people around Aotearoa who recognise that importance, but we understand that their allergy is very real on that side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003ESo, instead, we asked the Minister, \u201CWell, actually, what about the benefits that Te Tiriti o Waitangi brings? What about the benefits around te reo, around cultural competency?\u201D You\u2019re going to have this Director of Regulation, but how are they going to support k\u014Dhanga reo? How are they going to support puna reo? How are they going to be culturally competent to actually get in there and to help those M\u0101ori-medium setting early childhood education places? We did not get an answer. And so we\u2019ve got the Regulatory Standards Act, the Ministry for Regulation, and this new Director of Regulation and no clarity from this Minister or this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EThe other question, and it was picked up by my friend Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan, was around ratios. This is an incredibly important issue within the early childhood sector as well. The health and wellbeing of our tamariki and our mokopuna is incredibly important. The working conditions of our teachers\u2014those are the learning conditions of our children. So it is important that we do everything to support teachers as well. So we posed questions around the health and wellbeing: what is in place from this Director of Regulation? How can this person be used to actually address some of the health and wellbeing issues that are very live issues within the early childhood sector, particularly on ratios? How will they make sure that our tamariki and our mokopuna are well looked after? Every parent in this House will know that looking after babies is a lot different than looking after toddlers and a lot different than looking after older children as well. So that\u2019s why ratios are really, really important. But where is the follow-through? Where is the link-through? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EWe did get one response saying that \u201CActually, this is going to be a compliance thing, and those will be made by the policy makers.\u201D But where is the link? We\u2019re going to have all of this regulation, and we\u2019re going to have all of this \u201Cyellow tape\u201D, as it has been put, and the guise has been around deregulation, around getting rid of all this other sort of tape, but, actually, we\u2019ve got lots of yellow tape that is happening. There is no clarity at all about how this is going to help our tamariki and mokopuna, and how this is going to help those people that are in front of our tamariki to do their jobs. We do not commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022 data-id=\u002268f1a2ad1cf5478fadb31e8057b21d25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268f1a2ad1cf5478fadb31e8057b21d25\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. This is the third reading of the Education and Training (Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill, and some people might have mistaken it for being a Treaty bill, but this is about making sure that there is actually a position that is created, which is the Director of Regulation for early childhood education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022\u003ENo one is imagining that that person will be the one who goes into all of the different kinds of centres. There will be a team of people around this one person, so I\u2019m sure that if there are other skills that are needed, they won\u2019t need to reside in one person. This is a sensible change, and I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022 data-id=\u0022139e2f4b3e7342d4836f03bc00548b21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022139e2f4b3e7342d4836f03bc00548b21\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Well, we follow the soothing tones of Vanessa Weenink. You know, Erica Stanford, the Minister of Education, talks a big game on educational achievement, and that\u2019s OK\u2014that\u2019s OK. She talks a big game, but we\u2019re up for more educational achievement. We want our kids to do better, and so with Minister Stanford, we can at least have a debate about how we get there. We all want our country to succeed. We want our kids to do as well as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EBut with the Associate Minister of Education, David Seymour, it\u2019s a whole other kettle of fish. This is the man who brought New Zealand millions of burnt plastic school lunches. He\u2019s the man who subjected the nation to months and months of needlessly divisive undermining of our country\u2019s race relations with the Treaty principles bill. He\u2019s the man who put in place the charter schools framework that allowed in West Auckland over the last few weeks a bizarre, hostile takeover of a highly regarded local high school, Kelston Boys\u2019 High School, that has only just been resolved with this dodgy community organisation who was trying to mount the takeover withdrawing their expression of interest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EAnd so to let David Seymour loose on the early childhood education (ECE) sector is a cruel trick to play, because\u2014I think for most people in this House, actually, and certainly for members on this side of the House\u2014the early childhood education sector is one of our most treasured parts of the education system. We entrust our most vulnerable, our youngest children, into the care of an early childhood education sector. We want them to be safe. We want them to be well looked after. And yet this bill raises all sorts of alarm bells with right-thinking people, because David Seymour, with all of the kind of right-wing libertarian baggage that he brings to this Parliament, has set out to reform the regulatory system within which early childhood education operates. He\u2019s put in place a regulator that has\u2014from our reading, our interpretation of the provisions in this bill\u2014a mandate that has shifted away from education and the wellbeing of children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EHe\u2019s taken the regulation of the early childhood sector out of the Ministry of Education. Well, why? Is it not education? Why wouldn\u2019t it sit with the rest of the education system? It doesn\u2019t deserve the same kind of priority that tertiary education does? It doesn\u2019t deserve the resources and the focus that our compulsory education sector does? Why? The Government benches haven\u2019t been able to answer that in the course of these three readings and committee of the whole House stage. What are we supposed to think when not only is he taking it out of the Ministry of Education but, in the mandate and the framing of the mandate for the regulator, they explicitly say that the purpose is to give parents the option\u2014the choice\u2014to be able to enter the labour market?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003ENow, we all know that\u2019s a big part for parents all over New Zealand who want early childhood education for their kids, because it\u2019s very hard for working families to get by on only one income. Both parents have to work if they can, just to survive. But for that to be a key part of the framing of the mandate of this regulator\u2014that says to us that, actually, the whole system is being dragged and dropped out of education into a more economic framing. That has sparked for members on this side of the House what is really a values clash that has been brought to the surface with this. If we were drafting a new regulatory framework for the early childhood education sector, we would be putting the wellbeing and the learning achievement for children at the heart of it. That would have to be the paramount objective\u2014and yet it is not, under this framework. Why? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EWe are deeply suspicious that the regulatory framework and the appointment of this regulator is designed to do what we know, from all his other public statements, David Seymour wants to do, and that is run the early childhood sector on the basis of a competitive market. We know from experience that when you do that, inevitably, the quality outcomes, the safety of children, the quality of the learning environment, the educational experience that they have\u2014the whole experience of setting our kids up for a successful life in those crucial early years is likely to suffer. We know that that Minister is not committed to having 100 percent qualified early childhood education teachers\u2014and for us on this side of the House, that\u2019s an article of faith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EMany colleagues have commented in the course of this debate that the omission of Te Tiriti o Waitangi is a glaring gap, and it\u2019s par for the course: this Government, in one bill after another that comes before the House, have been stripping out the clauses that would direct whatever institution it is\u2014the other day it was our compulsory education sector that would have required schools to give effect to the Treaty of Waitangi. That\u2019s gone. There\u2019s nothing in here that would say to the sector that delivers early childhood education that they should give effect to the Treaty; that they should be mindful and conscious of the special place of M\u0101ori as tangata whenua in this country, and the need for the ECE sector to give appropriate importance to the worldview, the values, the culture, and the experience of M\u0101ori in that system. There\u2019s a reason we talk about it as our founding document, but this Government is hell-bent on stripping out from every bit of law that they can, any kind of commitment to the Treaty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EMany submitters expressed real concern that a child-centred approach was being taken out and put to one side with this bill in favour of a more economic, market-based approach, and we share those concerns. If we were drafting a bill like this, we would be looking to put equity and access issues at the heart of the regulatory framework for the early childhood sector. Access is still expensive for many families around New Zealand and, of course, what that means is that lower-income families struggle to get access to early childhood education for their kids or to have good choices about where their kids are going to go, and so what we would want to see is a much stronger commitment to ensuring that the non-profit part of the early childhood education sector is supported and has the conditions that would enable it to thrive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EI mentioned the importance of qualified early childhood education teachers. That is something that is extremely important to us. There\u2019s nothing that even comes anywhere near talking about that as an important priority in this bill. It\u2019s a terrible gap. We think there has to be more support for teacher qualification, for professional development, and, above all, paying our early childhood education teachers properly so we can retain good skills. I\u2019ll leave it there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229a9c205f95fc4f5c8943b440b9f5cb1d\u0022 data-id=\u00221ff71605bcf245b8b0dccf07c7f3faa0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229a9c205f95fc4f5c8943b440b9f5cb1d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ff71605bcf245b8b0dccf07c7f3faa0\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to take a call on this very important bill. I just find out rather ironic that here we are getting lectured on how to fix the early childhood education sector from the member of Parliament who couldn\u2019t build one KiwiBuild house, let alone 100,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229a9c205f95fc4f5c8943b440b9f5cb1d\u0022\u003ELook, moving on to the guts of this bill. Honestly, what we\u2019re trying to achieve here is to give great education for young children in New Zealand and break through the red tape to allow the people that are prepared to risk and invest money in providing these services so that we can have more options for parents and more affordable options for parents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229a9c205f95fc4f5c8943b440b9f5cb1d\u0022\u003EThat is what it\u2019s about. It\u2019s about the children being able to get provided with education. Up until we\u2019ve got through this, to this opportunity here today, early childhood centres were shutting down and that is not what we wanted to see. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u00221bdcc4cd06d249fd8306896aa6bd4215\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221bdcc4cd06d249fd8306896aa6bd4215\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call. I call the Hon Jo Luxton.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022 data-id=\u0022717073c7e9c445b880149e8307f32033\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022717073c7e9c445b880149e8307f32033\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I want to begin my contribution tonight by acknowledging all the early childhood (ECE) teachers out there in the sector, all the ECE teachers who chose early childhood teaching as a career and trained for many years to become qualified in this sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022\u003EBeing an ECE teacher is not easy job, but it is a very rewarding job. I know this because I was an ECE teacher before coming to Parliament. I was also an ECE centre owner. When I was an ECE teacher and then an owner, it was under the previous National Government\u2014the John Key National Government\u2014and even then I felt hugely concerned that that Government held no value against early childhood education and what it provided to our young people, and this piece of legislation just simply cements that in my mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022\u003EI am really concerned that this is just the beginning of the deregulation of the ECE sector, and I am concerned that Te Wh\u0101riki our curriculum document will be next, and I think everyone should feel very concerned about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022\u003EI am not a part of the Education and Workforce Committee so I wasn\u2019t there to hear the submitters and all the things that go along with being a part of a select committee, but I was concerned to hear that the majority of submitters opposed this piece of legislation, and I was really concerned to read in the regulatory impact statement about the lack of consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022\u003EThe Minister today said that there was consultation with the sector. There was consultation with the sector from the Ministry for Regulation but not on the specific piece of legislation. Actually, I think this piece of legislation is completely unnecessary and a waste of time, and as members who spoke before me have said, it\u2019s just part of a coalition agreement and it serves no purpose to improving the educational outcomes for our tamariki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022\u003EAnd be aware that that is what early childhood education centres are all about\u2014educating our children. And this piece of legislation has wording that says that the purpose is \u201Csupporting parents and caregivers to participate in the labour market.\u201D It sounds like some kind of robotic factory that will send our children off to stand in line to have nappies changed, be fed, and be put to bed without any value on the actual educational outcomes for our youngest and most vulnerable children in the years where their brains are just absolute little sponges. They learn through being curious, through making mistakes, through problem solving, through learning, and through building trusting relationships with other adults.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022\u003EThis piece of legislation simply makes it sound like, \u201CHere\u2019s a facility where you can drop your children off to babysit because we want you to get back to work.\u201D And whilst it is absolutely necessary for a lot of families to have two-parent working families\u2014it is essential\u2014that is not what the purpose of the ECE sector is fundamentally about. It is about educating our preschool-age children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022\u003EI come back to the lack of consultation I was reading about in the regulatory impact statement. There was some real concern in the advice that was given to the Minister with regard to\u2014I won\u2019t be able to find the piece I\u2019m looking for but one of the documents I have here in front of me relates to Treaty of Waitangi obligations. There were several limitations and constraints on the regulatory impact analysis, including limited time to both undertake detailed analysis of the impacts of the proposals and undertake consultation with key stakeholders. And it goes on to say that the Minister of Education advised Ministers that these limitations on the regulatory impact analysis create risk of policy failure and litigation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022\u003EThis is an absolutely unnecessary piece of legislation. The early childhood regulations were very clear about the health and safety requirements, standards, and licensing requirements about ECE centres. Early childhood education is about educating our youngest and most vulnerable children. I do not commend this legislation to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002245a91c82858d44fda0df4854f18cb4a9\u0022 data-id=\u002235553b91c3b84d028ed67e7f7e78ed64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002245a91c82858d44fda0df4854f18cb4a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235553b91c3b84d028ed67e7f7e78ed64\u0022\u003EGREG FLEMING (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E It is my privilege to take a very short call on this bill. Let me mihi to the k\u014Dhanga reo and the many kindergartens and childcare centres in the electorate of Maungakiekie. There\u2019s over 70 of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002245a91c82858d44fda0df4854f18cb4a9\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re excited about this piece of legislation. We\u2019re excited about what it brings to that sector. I also mihi to the childcare centre on whose board of the charitable trust I sit. I tautoko the many comments that I\u2019ve heard about the fact that serving the early childhood centre is as much a calling as it is employment. We totally tautoko that on this side of the House, and that\u2019s what this legislation is about. I am delighted to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022 data-id=\u002226861c053ab74deebcbb52606c77e2c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226861c053ab74deebcbb52606c77e2c5\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E This bill is really a race to the bottom when it comes to our kids\u2019 education. For some reason, I have an image in my mind of chickens in a barn just being herded in. It\u2019s kind of babysitting; it\u2019s \u201CLet\u2019s get the kids into a babysitting place so we can get the parents out to work.\u201D It\u2019s going to be deregulated, and the pedagogy is not going to be there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThen I compare that kind of image with the Dunedin Study\u2014an internationally renowned study\u2014which has shown unequivocally the importance of the first 2,000 days. I had the privilege of having a walk through some really exciting programmes that have been rolling out through our ECEs around New Zealand\u2014programmes like Enrich and Engage\u2014which really are play-based and have a strong pedagogy, fantastic evidence base, and results to show behaviour regulation and decision making, the types of behaviours referred to by my colleague the Hon Jo Luxton. Enrich, as well, adds language skills so that, by the time our children go to school, they are really well set up to be able to continue to be curious and to learn in the best possible way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does is flies absolutely in the face of that, and it\u2019s hard for me to believe that it\u2019s even allowed to be called the Education and Training (Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill, because when we look at the Education and Training Act, in section 4, the purpose of that Act states very clearly that this is about learning outcomes, it is about supporting Te Tiriti, it is about supporting Crown-M\u0101ori relationships, and it is about supporting equity. There is nothing in there that talks about the labour market and getting people into the labour market as being one of its fundamental values. In fact, it goes in the opposite direction because the failure to include Te Tiriti means that it flies in the opposite direction of what the primary Act has legislated. I have real questions around the potential ultra vires, if you like, of section 3 of the principal Act. When I asked the Associate Minister of Education about it at the committee stage, I had dissatisfactory answers. In fact, I don\u2019t believe the Minister in the chair at the time even bothered to answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EWe heard numerous complaints that came via the submitters, the ones that I read, but also through the regulatory impact statement (RIS), about the lack of an evidence base for this amendment, the rushed process, and the lack of options that were able to be considered. It was no wonder the Minister was not able to answer our questions when we asked about specific things. At one point, he mentioned that Te Tiriti was extraneous. He could not tell us whether the inclusion of k\u014Dhanga reo and puna reo and bilingual units meant that Te Tiriti was nevertheless implied, because it is certainly explicit in the primary Act. We have no Hansard recording for that; there will be confusion there. He could not answer our questions around that when we queried in Schedule 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThe other concern I have, actually, is that we didn\u2019t really get to the bottom of some of the critical clauses in Part 1; it was a fairly truncated debate, in my view. We had some questions around the role of the director and the secretary. The RIS makes it very clear that there is potential for confusion because the director is quasi-independent. There are question marks over their accountability to the Minister, but also there are questions over the decision-making hierarchy, particularly in the transitional period with the director and the secretary\u2014and the RIS points that out. The Minister was not able to answer our questions on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EWe didn\u2019t even get to clause 8 and onwards. I\u2019m quite concerned about those because any time a member of this House sees words to do with enforcement powers and\u2014let me have a look, I\u2019ll find it in the bill\u2014the director\u2019s powers, which are much broader than the secretary\u2019s, I have to say, we have sections that we couldn\u2019t even ask about to do with administration of Part 2, with being able to use regulatory actions that could be seen as punitive, especially if the information demands were onerous. That was mentioned in the RIS at page 33.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EWe didn\u2019t get to clause 10, which expands warrantless entry and inspection powers. Now, warrantless entry and inspection powers are not things to be taken lightly in democracy. They deserve to be considered fully. They are human rights based. This is New Zealand. We expect this to be done properly, and yet there are multiple references in the RIS that we did not get to ask the Minister about: page 33 with inspections being perceived as punitive potentially; that major structural shifts could cause confusion over the regulatory powers\u2014that\u2019s page 30\u2014that the State\u2019s regulatory actions must be proportionate\u2014as a warning on page 29\u2014and that there was no consultation with the sector on expanded enforcement powers, on page 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThere was a trivialisation, in my view, of the human rights elements of this. When people raised the rights of children, there was a bit of sneering from the other side of the House; the Minister looked disengaged and bored. Let\u2019s not forget that we have just gone through an abuse in care royal commission. Let\u2019s not forget that there should have been a New Zealand Bill of Rights Act report on this. We did not get to ask questions about that because of the truncated debate. We did not get to ask questions about the ACC liabilities in the event that there was an overreach of these powers. What would the police involvement be with some of these extended powers of the director? What would the rights of appeal be? There was evidence in the submissions about more mistrust of the State by M\u0101ori. Now, if I go back to the primary legislation that this is supposed to be amending, one of the clear purposes in section 4 is Crown-M\u0101ori relationships and also supporting Te Tiriti. How on earth this can be seen to reconcile with that, I do not know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EWe then also had a whole lot of information-gathering powers, which are broader than those of the current secretary. We didn\u2019t get any satisfactory answers about how that would be managed, when it comes to privacy rights. Again, these are fundamental human rights in a democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EWhat I would like to do, though, is really challenge what the Minister said when he tried to suggest that this is about best practice and regulation. We have an OECD report that is widely recognised as best practice in countries that we compare ourselves to called Starting Strong. It repeatedly highlights that fragmented ECE governance systems can lead to uneven service quality, confusion amongst parents, regulatory inconsistency, weak accountability, and gaps between educational goals and regulatory enforcement. We can see, from the way this bill is written, that it absolutely does risk doing all of those things, because it fragments the governance so that you have a director who isn\u2019t responsible or answerable to the ministry. That\u2019s been done very deliberately and in quite a Machiavellian way, in my view, to essentially privatise, as has been said, and to avoid accountability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThere are numerous places in the OECD report that stress that child-centred and not market-centred regulation leads to the best educational outcomes. New Zealand was in the group of countries that had done that pre-2024\u2014with Norway, Sweden, Estonia. The research was bearing out those results. Mark my words, when this comes into effect in the coming years\u2014if there is even adequate monitoring and evaluation of the impacts of this, and that is questionable given the lack of accountability\u2014we will see educational achievement go down and, most specifically, we will see it go down for M\u0101ori and for our rural sector, and they are the most vulnerable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ab0e2da5ef64246874e2b93be8d4a7d\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: You saw it go down for ages, and what did you do about it? It\u2019s accelerated it. You wrecked the education system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022328299ec09414b2c8232bb433517500f\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Speaker. If the member would like to take a call, can he please take a call? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fddbf93515f4ac4a4e5e62ae784bbe4\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022818af30b40624a409b1e7c1dbe1bfb8a\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s really hard to hear myself think when someone\u2019s yelling. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard a lot about M\u0101ori being the ones who have been most disadvantaged. When we asked about the rushed time frame, which was mentioned in the RIS many times, and there was no evidence base for doing that, we said, \u201CPlease, at least for our M\u0101ori-medium providers and our rural providers who would not be able to get their affairs in order to be able to respond quickly enough and for whom there was no impact assessment done, at least push the start date out to six months.\u201D The Minister didn\u2019t even bother to answer that question, and so I really feel for the rural ECE providers in my electorate of Taieri. I also want to acknowledge the tireless workers of the ECE sector who do the work for love, not for money. This is going to be a very sad day for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229ad9f402f06844c586a6f2f904712412\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6c0d65eec1549df80ef0c124e4bd962\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ad9f402f06844c586a6f2f904712412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6c0d65eec1549df80ef0c124e4bd962\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Just like my colleague over here, Greg Fleming, I just want to start off by thanking all those that look after and care for our young ones in the early childhood sector and thank them for their passion and their care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ad9f402f06844c586a6f2f904712412\u0022\u003EThis bill provides clarity. It provides clarity around regulating early childhood education. It introduces principles to inform the decision making while keeping children\u2019s health and safety as a paramount objective. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222ebc761cd9cb4158a0824c5d9c54a4f5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Education and Training (Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000982\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220a0bbc56aee14875aa730d2b3d5ba467\u0022\u003ECrimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ebf66d080dbb4113aeb2d9aa756bae3c\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022 data-id=\u002224c5ca665b5044da9bc587fce2ab9be4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224c5ca665b5044da9bc587fce2ab9be4\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Crimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229af9e2ecef3a4f1893e82520d22bc9d1\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d53bc6352a424c3f9547bd59d5ca9ce5\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Crimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003EThis Government has committed, as we all know, to restoring law and order and strengthening democracy and freedoms. I\u2019m pleased that this bill has now reached its final stage, because it supports both of those important goals. However, it\u2019s unique in the sense that unlike our other law and order issues we\u2019ve debated in the House, which arise from domestic challenges, this bill responds to a threat we collectively face that comes from outside New Zealand. It specifically addresses the growing issue of foreign interference. Foreign interference goes beyond the appropriate forms of State-to-State engagement. It is activity that is intended to deceive, corrupt, or coerce New Zealanders to unduly influence, disrupt, or subvert our national interests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003EOur intelligence and security agencies report that foreign State - sponsored attempts have been made to deceptively influence policy makers and undermine the independence of our democratic and foreign policy objectives. Public submissions on the bill reported communities are being harassed and monitored and attempts are being made to prevent them from expressing views that foreign States consider subversive. This cannot be tolerated in our democracy. We must send a clear signal to the public and other States that foreign interference from any source is not acceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269e671913e6b49c0898ad0b9df952f21\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Like America. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fe23e807db94ed097e4da9662aa7c39\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: This bill\u2014thank you, Mr Waititi, for your commentary\u2014strengthens New Zealand\u2019s criminal law to support a justice response to foreign interference and espionage activity targeting New Zealand. It specifically introduces two new offences that criminalise foreign interference, and updates existing offences to better hold people accountable for disclosing information that\u2019s likely to prejudice New Zealand\u2019s security or defence. The measures are country-neutral of course, and apply to anyone or any nation undertaking foreign interference against New Zealand and those who support foreign States through malign, self-initiated conduct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003EThe first new offence criminalises the act of foreign interference. To commit the offence, a person must know, or ought to know, that they are committing or acting for or on behalf of a foreign power. They must also be acting in an inappropriate manner and mean to compromise a protected New Zealand interest. All elements of the offence must occur to attract criminal liability. This ensures that the offence doesn\u2019t criminalise appropriate foreign influence occurring through diplomatic or political channels, or when foreign States or their agents advocate for their country\u2019s interests in an open and transparent manner\u2014which, I\u2019m sure, is everything that people assume. It will also mean that the offence does not apply to people who do not know and do not have a reasonable way of determining that they\u2019re being used by a foreign State to undertake foreign interference against New Zealand, and that\u2019s important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003EThe second new offence further criminalises existing imprisonable offences where they are committed for or on behalf of a foreign power to benefit in specified ways. The offence recognises that some activities used to undertake or support foreign interference are already offences in New Zealand. The significance of these criminal acts and the harms that they cause increases when they are committed to support a foreign power. This will now be accounted for in our criminal law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003ESafeguards, of course, will be in place to ensure lawful and appropriate conduct does not inadvertently attract criminal liability. This includes requiring the Attorney-General\u2019s consent to prosecute. The Justice Committee also made important changes which further clarified the bill\u2019s intent to target harmful foreign interference and protect the exercise of rights and freedoms. I appreciate and I welcome the committee\u2019s contributions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003EWith respect to changes to existing offences, the bill clarifies and strengthens accountability for committing espionage and disclosing Government information that is likely to prejudice New Zealand\u2019s security or defence without authorisation. The bill inserts a definition of \u201CA person who owes allegiance to the Sovereign in right of New Zealand\u201D into the Crimes Act. This definition does not apply to the new foreign interference offences, but instead provides greater certainty for who can be held accountable for committing espionage and a small number of existing offences that include this term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003ENew offences are being created to address criminal liability gaps under this bill. Anyone who owes allegiance to the Sovereign and right of New Zealand can now be held liable as a party if they assist others to commit acts that amount to espionage against our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003ECollectively, these changes strengthen our criminal justice response to foreign interference by providing a means to better hold people to account for committing harmful acts against our country and our communities. I\u2019m proud that New Zealand will be taking this stand against foreign interference. We encourage cooperation and mutual respect between States, but we also must be clear that we will not tolerate acts that seek to undermine our sovereignty, security, and our way of life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003EBy passing this bill, we are supporting the resilience of New Zealand\u2019s democracy and working to ensure our country remains a place where everyone can enjoy the guaranteed rights and freedoms afforded to them under our laws. On that basis, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u00225cc5abd6d25b4971a0331725852a5868\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225cc5abd6d25b4971a0331725852a5868\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc2e0c63937149f9b05bef28ed691734\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc2e0c63937149f9b05bef28ed691734\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Speaker. The Labour Party will be supporting this bill, but not with the excitement that the Minister of Justice gave his speech in, because this bill seeks to strike a balance between what is, essentially, national security and the rights and freedoms of its citizens. The area of national security is one in which it is particularly challenging to do that, because the interest protected\u2014the interest of national security\u2014is somewhat amorphous; and, in terms of foreign interference, the conduct which is by this bill criminalised would, in many settings, be innocuous, and I want to just outline how innocuous it might be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003ESome people might be aware that the Economic and Cultural Office of Taiwan had an event the other day, and some MPs attended. Some MPs received a letter from the Ambassador to the People\u2019s Republic of China, which was, essentially, a reprimand. Now, if it went no further, the ambassador, in a perhaps ham-fisted way, is trying to influence the conduct of parliamentarians. So far, nothing in particular to see here, in terms of this legislation, but you only have to add one ingredient. If, for example, the ambassador asked someone, a New Zealand citizen, perhaps an immigrant, what MPs were there, then let\u2019s run that through this piece of legislation, because the question is: is the passing on of information improper conduct? The short answer to that is that, under this legislation, it is, because it\u2019s passing on private information, or information about a person, without that other person knowing. Are they doing it knowing that they\u2019re going to assist a foreign power? Well, if they\u2019re handing it on to someone from an ambassador\u2019s office, they\u2019re clearly doing it because it\u2019s useful to that other person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EWhat is the effect of that? The effect of that, if we look at the letter that was sent, is to seek to impede the conduct of a public official. The members of Parliament who are there, members of this legislature\u2014the ultimate aim was to seek to interfere with the discharge of their duties through influencing their behaviour. If you peel that back, we\u2019ve got something that looks pretty innocuous: \u201CYes, I saw Duncan Webb at that event\u201D; you wouldn\u2019t think that that\u2019s criminal, and that\u2019s why I say this is a difficult piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EWe support it, but we want to be clear that we need to strike a careful balance. What I don\u2019t want to see is people who are doing innocuous acts, perhaps carelessly, perhaps even recklessly, because that\u2019s the test: was that person reckless as to whether or not they were assisting a foreign power in seeking to exert influence? I think we need to approach this with a degree of caution, because, ultimately, it will be, I assume, the police who will be enforcing this, and they will need to strike a careful balance between not just the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act protected rights but also the importance of the freedom to act in what we would consider to be a normal way. So if we think of the test, \u201Cthey know or ought to know\u201D, so they could be acting innocently, but a person who is perhaps a bit smarter or a bit switched on, or perhaps just not quite as thick, would know. So that person ought to know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EThen, of course, we\u2019ve got this test of \u201Cthe person engages in conduct being reckless as to whether doing so is likely to compromise a protected New Zealand interest.\u201D Now, an ordinary person in the street is unlikely to understand what a protected New Zealand interest is and is unlikely to see the nuance of what is a national security interest: defence, easy; selling submarine designs to the Russians, easy. But telling people who were at an event, or things of that nature, who met with who; that\u2019s hard to understand, but, nevertheless, it could be interfering with a protected New Zealand interest, because a protected New Zealand interest includes not only the economic wellbeing of New Zealand but also the functioning of the executive, judiciary, or legislature. Saying who Ministers met with or who parliamentarians met with or where judges play golf\u2014those kinds of things could all be seen as in breach of this legislation. It even goes further down the Public Service, because interfering with \u201Cthe exercise or performance of any public function, duty, or power conferred \u2026 on [any] person or body\u201D. So even if you\u2019re talking about the conduct or the behaviours or the relationships of a public servant, particularly senior public servants, that\u2019s going to run into problems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EOf course, the conduct in itself\u2014there\u2019s some conduct which we know to be problematic. Coercion is an obvious one: threatening to disclose harmful information if someone doesn\u2019t give you a secret\u2014of course it\u2019s going to be wrong. That\u2019s the kind of coercion in foreign interference that, clearly, falls over the line. But what about just concealing a person\u2019s actions or identity? Not telling someone your real name in a conversation? If you\u2019re working for an embassy and you\u2019re at a party and you don\u2019t tell them you work at the American Embassy and you, therefore, get disclosures about what they do, who they are, their role in Parliament, some staffer talking about the work they\u2019re doing for a senior Minister\u2014well, simply by not saying, \u201CI work for the American Embassy\u201D, when you\u2019re talking to staff at the Ministry for Economic Development office, that is concealing a person\u2019s identity. Similarly, \u201Cobscuring the existence of an association or relationship\u201D\u2014that also falls foul of it. Or, in the one I referred to earlier: \u201Ccollecting or sharing information about a person without their knowledge or consent\u201D\u2014it doesn\u2019t say \u201Cprivate information\u201D; it just says \u201Cinformation\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EI think, when we come to look at this, foreign interference is a problem; we need to absolutely address it, but one of the challenges at select committee, and one of the things that I, to be honest, wasn\u2019t entirely satisfied with, was that the boundaries of this criminalisation\u2014the fringes\u2014are not clear. The centre is clear. The prohibition on spying and illegitimate influence is clear, but at the fringes, the kind of small behaviours that actually are the bread and butter of the intelligence community are not clear. We need to be constantly vigilant that we don\u2019t have a kind of authoritarian creep where things which we ought to accept as an ordinary incident of living in a free and open and democratic society all of a sudden become subject to, essentially, criminalisation\u2014and criminalisation in a way which is hard to defend against, because there\u2019s not a great deal of mental element here and the actus reus, the actions which are prohibited, are broad indeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EThis bill is needed. Addressing foreign interference is needed. But when the courts come to interpret this, I am hopeful that they will look at it and say that we need to interpret this not just against the background of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act but also against the background of how a free and democratic society operates, and what kinds of behaviours are assumed to be permitted and what kinds of interactions are presumed to be permitted, and to ensure that only people who really know that they are leveraging a foreign power\u2019s influence in an inappropriate way are criminalised by this legislation. So, on that basis, we will be supporting this bill, but we will look with interest at its implementation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad879dc7aa774a6eb8d0de86a85b3080\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad879dc7aa774a6eb8d0de86a85b3080\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Just to acknowledge the previous speaker, the Hon Dr Duncan Webb, he made a lot of really, really good points\u2014he always makes a lot of good points; enough points, actually, for me to not support this bill. Surprise, surprise! The Green Party do not support this bill. While we understand it\u2019s important to ensure New Zealand is protected from genuine threats of foreign interference, this legislation does not ensure sufficient protections for civil liberties and democratic freedoms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EThe point made around being influenced by foreign entities, by foreign countries, I think, is an important one, and the illustration by the Hon Dr Duncan Webb, a very specific one. I don\u2019t have anybody from a major foreign power following me on social media, who might comment or watch what I am sharing on social media, but I think it is an important point, because if you add the extra influence of a foreign country on to somebody whose conduct is reckless, then the court can actually pile on a lot more penalties\u2014up to around seven years, I think it was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EIn the committee of the whole House stage, I did propose an amendment to clause 10, which I thought would actually rectify that. It was to replace \u201Cfunding, or agreement\u201D with \u201Cor funding\u201D to make sure that it\u2019s not necessary to actually have the agreement of a foreign power, because people are sometimes reckless and are doing wrong, but they might not be conscious that, actually, a foreign power is influencing them, or actually agree that this foreign power is agreeing with them. So, actually, having something in there, I think, would have been quite useful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EThe committee of the whole House stage was interesting; we canvassed a whole range of ideas. We had this really interesting discussion around the definition of owing allegiance, and despite the debate and despite the discussion, I still found it quite unclear and unclear exactly how this legislation will apply that particular part of the bill. One of the interesting examples that was brought up was around people with whakapapa or a heritage connection to Aotearoa New Zealand. There\u2019s a very live case at the moment\u2014and I noticed the Hon Minister Tama Potaka in the House, as well\u2014where a family took this through to the Waitangi Tribunal in order to get their passport. The contention of the Waitangi Tribunal, in that case, is actually that you should be able to get New Zealand citizenship within two generations, as well. In that particular case, this could apply to somebody overseas who has that whakapapa connection within two generations if the Minister and the Government would agree with the Waitangi Tribunal, and I think there are really good reasons why the Government should do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EThere were also discussions around owing allegiance around various visa types, as well. These are very interesting questions. People come here on different visas, so what does that actually mean for them? How do the owing allegiance provisions specifically impact them as well? I felt that those questions were not resolved very well by the Minister. We also were concerned around the discussion around foreign agents who become residents but not citizens, who might fall outside of the allegiance definition, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EThere were certainly some conversations around how this would apply to people who hold allegiance that live outside of New Zealand. I have a particular interest in that, because I am also from the Cook Islands: we have New Zealand passports; Niueans also have New Zealand passports. What does that mean for us? You have a large number of us living here in New Zealand. Then you also have people in the Ross Dependency, as well. It wasn\u2019t very clear. I think that the answer that we got to was: determining what the type of citizenship somebody\u2014like myself and my relatives over in the Islands\u2014might have is a question for the courts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EThere was a discussion around how common law could be applied to people, to citizens, as well. But here\u2019s the thing around access to the common law: you actually need some resources to be able to go to the court to determine whether you fall under the provisions or not. That was, I felt, a question that was also unresolved by the Minister, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s also lots of different questions around temporary allegiance, as well\u2014that was something that was brought up, which I thought was quite interesting; I think that was Vanushi Walters that brought that up, and I had actually never heard of that before until that particular debate as well\u2014and historical legal concepts of temporary allegiance, where non-citizens owe allegiance only while present in the country. That\u2019s an important point to make, because if you owe allegiance and you fall under the auspices of this legislation and you\u2019re at a meeting and you\u2019re a bit reckless at the meeting and someone likes your stuff on Facebook, you could be facing even more penalties. I think that was really unclear, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EAlso, there were questions around how this would apply to migrants, visa holders, and people with dual obligations. I\u2019ve heard of people in this House who have dual citizenship\u2014I think maybe even triple citizenship, but I\u2019m not too sure if that\u2019s actually possible; it probably is. These questions were also canvassed at the committee of the whole House stage, as well, but I still don\u2019t think that those were adequately addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EThere is the wider question around the influence of Five Eyes countries, as well. The submitters that came to the Justice Committee were very specific about a particular couple of countries, and that was what the focus was. If you\u2019re getting foreign interference from anyone, from any other country, then it\u2019s appropriate that things need to be put in place. But there was no resolution for the vast number of submitters who came to the select committee who were concerned about the importation of culture wars\u2014for example, the influence of groups like the Atlas Network. We only have to see what happened just outside in the last Parliament, when they burnt down the playground, as well\u2014people influenced by social media, and the influence of social media on New Zealand citizens, as well. These are all examples of foreign interference, of foreign influence by outside entities, whether we agree with the people that were influenced by that or not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EThis bill does not address that, as well, and I think that continues to be an important question for this House, as well, particularly when you give the trajectory of the Government. They\u2019re cosying up to the Trump administration\u2014too close, I would say, to the Trump administration. I think it\u2019s really important that we have an independent foreign policy, and getting too close to the Trump administration I don\u2019t think is a good idea, particularly when it doesn\u2019t pay the dividends that you think it would. I recall the announcement of the Wellington FBI office: everybody was surprised it was open, but no one was more surprised than Todd McClay because, the very next day, New Zealand got pinged with 15 percent tariffs. So here you have it: we roll out the red carpet\u2014well, the Government rolls out the red carpet for the FBI, and they can\u2019t even give us a good tariff rate. So we\u2019re being influenced to roll out the red carpet for the FBI, and it doesn\u2019t even do anything for us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EThese really important questions need to be resolved, these really important questions need to be put to the House, about how you do actually deal with that situation. We do not want\u2014or I don\u2019t think we want\u2014to have the impact of culture wars being imported into the country, culture wars predominantly via America, influencing our society. I think that\u2019s incredibly, incredibly important. This bill doesn\u2019t do anything to resolve that. This bill does nothing to resolve that at all. It is very, very specific and targeted at one particular group, and pretty vague in that way, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EWe won\u2019t be supporting this bill. There were too many unresolved questions around who owes allegiance to who; the potential legal gaps and loopholes, as well; how this will impact people who are dual citizens or triple citizens; access to the common laws so you actually can figure out what your rights are, because not everybody has got money to actually to roll up to the court and say, \u201CYou know what? I was a bit reckless, I was a bit disorderly, I went to a function, I met the Hon Duncan Webb and I put something on Facebook and a foreign power liked me on Facebook.\u201D Those things are not clear. We don\u2019t think this bill hits the mark, and the Greens will not be supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223590b041308241868a09b9ec8fda5803\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdf5d56997cc4c9e8073731b982b4ede\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223590b041308241868a09b9ec8fda5803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdf5d56997cc4c9e8073731b982b4ede\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a privilege to stand on behalf of ACT and support the Crimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill. This Government made a commitment to restore law and order, and that comes in many shapes and sizes when it comes to dealing with criminal offences. Part of this is around strengthening New Zealand\u2019s ability to detect, deter, and respond to foreign State interference by creating new criminal offences, modernising espionage and treason laws, and tightening protections around sensitive information and national institutions. This all makes sense because it\u2019s important to protect New Zealand\u2019s interests. It\u2019s important to make sure that there\u2019s accountability when there is foreign interference in our country that actually threatens our national interests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223590b041308241868a09b9ec8fda5803\u0022\u003EWe are strengthening the law to provide a better means to hold people accountable when they are undertaking foreign interference. Whilst it is OK and normal for diplomatic activity to happen\u2014transparent lobbying and other forms of open and cooperative engagement are welcome\u2014when it becomes hidden and when it becomes deceptive and quite corrosive and corruptive, we need to have a way of dealing with this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223590b041308241868a09b9ec8fda5803\u0022\u003EI\u2019m really proud to be part of a Government that\u2019s looking at all areas of law and order and making sure that we\u2019re protecting New Zealand\u2019s interests and making sure that everybody is safe in this country. I really commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022 data-id=\u0022fddfee3d9c37444f9ee790c1b85807ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fddfee3d9c37444f9ee790c1b85807ac\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to speak in support of the Crimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill. The bill directly affects New Zealand\u2019s ability to uphold and defend our sovereignty. Criminalising and applying harsher penalties to new kinds of covert acts intended to compromise our sovereignty will protect New Zealand, New Zealanders, and our New Zealand interests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022\u003EThis is a very clear piece of legislation, which is raising questions as to why it\u2019s causing so much consternation. This is about the deliberate deception, corruption, and coercion of individuals. It is the undermining of our ability to secure our sovereignty, protect our democracy, and protect our way of life. I think, ultimately, that is the message that we are sending. For any questions around criminality, as those who understand law will know, this is about combining mens rea with the actus reus\u2014so there is a combination. When you break down an offence and talk clause by clause and ignore the fact that this is an \u201Cand, and, and\u201D piece of legislation and that all of those components have to exist in order for the criminality levels to be met, and, again, always, as with any law, the threshold of reasonable grounds to believe before any prosecution can take place and, further than that, beyond reasonable doubt to achieve a conviction, I think, will provide the assurances that those across the House have questioned in debating this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First supports this bill because it gives our enforcement agencies the powers they need to tackle any kind of foreign interference. As we know, we are more connected globally than we ever have been, and, therefore, with that comes the risks of foreign interference. We need to ensure that we can trade openly, that we can engage equally, and that we can grow our identity across the world, whilst having the protections from foreign interference that would seek to undermine our way of life and our democracy and our national security. Therefore, New Zealand First has no hesitation to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022 data-id=\u00225df925791ab64ecf906990e14b5bcfda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225df925791ab64ecf906990e14b5bcfda\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker. Well, I\u2019ve heard a lot this evening, and what we have here is a Government that continues to use scaremongering tactics with our people here in Aotearoa, without any true evidence. We\u2019ve had a few bills passed through this House this year. One was about regulating space because there was an imminent threat\u2014we weren\u2019t told what that imminent threat was. The social engineering that this Government continues to do to the New Zealand public is actually frightening, because what you actually do is you start to prepare and you start to create legislation that, in actual fact, if you were to peel it all back, you will find that the foreign interference happening here at this particular time is actually aligned with the Americanisation of this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002240e5649619404f2c80ddb4dd8ea03662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dabbf02a67b543f48bfd83bb64523c21\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. Trumpism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022852a6bb9c183451297a8b24ba4205728\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s Trumpism. It\u2019s Trumpism at its best. Just like everyone else in Aotearoa, we do not want foreign powers. When you start to criminalise owing allegiance to the Sovereign in right of New Zealand\u2014you have got iwi in this country who understand what sovereignty is, and we never swore sovereignty to the Crown of England, and so that is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ab15144efba447a96aa59c50a8d53fc\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a matter of opinion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022224c90cd8d83458a8a26c49d0103111c\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not a matter of opinion. Read Te Tiriti o Waitangi. This is your problem, sir. This is your problem. That member hasn\u2019t read Te Tiriti o Waitangi. It never ever said that M\u0101ori ceded sovereignty. We\u2019ve got Ng\u0101puhi over there, and we\u2019ve got M\u014Dkai P\u0101tea over there. You go and have a conversation with those iwi. I can tell you right now that those particular clauses in this particular bill will be damaging, and we cannot support this bill. We cannot support this bill, because it fundamentally goes against our vision for foreign policy in Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003EThere was inadequate consultation with tangata whenua in the development of this bill. Te Tiriti is absolutely absent in it. This looks like another step in Aotearoa cosying up to the United States. Our policy is straightforward. Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori will assert our mana motuhake in a foreign policy grounded in tikanga M\u0101ori and anti-imperialism. We will reject the war agenda and reaffirm military neutrality for Aotearoa. We cannot let foreign powers turn Te Moana-nui-a-Kiwa into a strategic war zone, and we cannot align ourselves with Government committing or sponsoring war crimes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003EHow can our people trust the Government to act in their best interest when they are not even willing to engage with us on matters of national security and when they are actively harming our people with their domestic policies? How can we trust that this bill will protect us from foreign interference when this Government has a track record of aligning Aotearoa closer to the United States? They\u2019ve set up an FBI office in P\u014Dneke, they\u2019ve refused to recognise Palestine\u2019s Statehood, and they are laying the groundwork for joining AUKUS. This is just a realignment to Five Eyes\u2014all while the United States enabled and funded a genocide. This is shameful\u2014this is shameful. The reason that this Government cites for alignment is the pressure from traditional security partners\u2014Five Eyes, AUKUS\u2014and growing geopolitical competition in the Pacific, hence the bullying tactics over the whanaunga in the Cook Islands: cybersecurity and shared intelligence concerns; dependence on trade with China versus ties with the West. China is our biggest trading partner, but you treat them like the second cousin sitting over there, and you align yourselves to the US. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003ERegulation of our space territory was another one. Not only did you allow the protection\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a333f66f12e5442d98d234b8a51c4bf8\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I haven\u2019t done anything, Mr Waititi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f1b9d94627941b798afeb436da865ce\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s all part of it; it\u2019s all part of it, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s all part of counter - foreign intelligence, because it all aligns. It all aligns. All the legislation you\u2019ve moved aligns with this, because what you\u2019re doing is allowing one country to have interference in ours, and your alignment with that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e13f7a1b2a404276b9df8372a922c068\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Waititi, just less use of the word \u201Cyou\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223f183d9257d4bc39fed3ff4fa0126c3\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI\u003C/span\u003E: OK. They are aligning with the\u2014are you happy now? They are aligning with the Americans and allowing our country to be sold off, not just in our security and our social security but, also, in a commercial instance. You constantly align yourselves with Five Eyes and AUKUS. Absolutely\u2014absolutely. We are unequivocally against this bill, and we will never, ever support a bill that goes against the true sovereign of this country, te iwi M\u0101ori. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u00229d74d36a31d9491198a3f342e0fba352\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d74d36a31d9491198a3f342e0fba352\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I think I want to start by talking about some of the issues that we have explored in this bill during the committee stage. I think the first thing that we\u2019re looking at is the definition of who is supposed to be covered in this bill and the \u201CMeaning of person who owes allegiance to sovereignty to the Sovereign in right of New Zealand\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ENow, there was a lot of discussion but, to be honest, we didn\u2019t get the clarity that we were hoping for from the Minister when we\u2019re looking at some of these definitions, and I think a lot of them have been pushed down the lane as saying, \u201CYou know what, that\u2019s more for case law to determine.\u201D, but we have seen in Aotearoa that there is a barrier for people when it comes to access to justice, and that barrier is particularly high for those whose English is their second language. So that, first and foremost, wasn\u2019t something that we were particularly impressed by during the committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EOnce we were looking more into it\u2014and I think, specifically, that my colleague Teanau Tuiono has explored some of these areas around, well, what does \u201Crecklessness\u201D in this case mean? You know, mens rea is a particularly important component when committing an offence. I propose the example: what happens if an MP were travelling abroad, took their devices, and then that somehow got left behind or some of the data was accessed? Is that considered recklessness under section 78AAA, subsection (3)? That is a really important question, because that\u2019s an actual, genuine example that may eventuate if we are looking at this bill that potentially has a very broad scope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EWe also did ask the question because, I think, when you are looking at a bill like this and the kind of advice that the Government has received, it\u2019s also: who is the target of this particular bill? We do want to explore the fact that if you\u2019re looking at the definition under section 78AAA, subsection (6), in terms of who would be considered a foreign interference body or a foreign power, you could include things, like a foreign public official like Elon Musk when he was part of the Department of Government Efficiency. You could be looking at a company, body, or organisation like the Atlas Network, and the way that it has infiltrated even some of the decisions that Aotearoa New Zealand makes in this term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c48fa66eaefc43009ee1f3d001c498c3\u0022\u003EHon Casey Costello\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t let facts get in the way of a good story.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cae7948d81b44a78014cd69291964eb\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: This is an important question, and this is an important point, and I love the fact that people are saying, \u201CWell, what is the fact?\u201D To be honest, we are already seeing that. We have seen that this very week and also last week, in terms of some of the bills that get passed in this House. What is considered, then, foreign interference? Because, clearly, the Government has a particular target in mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ENow, foreign interference is a serious issue and it should be something that people take seriously. Particularly for the migrant community, this is something that is being taken seriously in terms of what it means. But I\u2019m also fearful for my communities, because this sort of fear mongering will be reverberated on them. Nothing in this bill and nothing we have heard so far talks about the impact this will have for my community when they are being targeted by racism and by people who do not understand what this bill is trying to do but have bought into the fear perpetuated by this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EPeople always say like, \u201CWell, you know what, sovereignty is really important.\u201D, but they are also the same people that we have seen who are quite comfortable selling Aotearoa to overseas powers. Te Tiriti is our defence, but we have not seen Te Tiriti once in this this bill; we have not seen tangata whenua being consulted, and hap\u016B and iwi being consulted, in the making of this bill. Why? Because the biggest colonial power and the biggest foreign interference of Aotearoa is the colonial power, and it\u2019s perpetuated and permeated in the history of Aotearoa. But we are seeing the Government continuously undermining that. So, no, the Greens will not support this bill because it\u2019s two-faced, frankly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022 data-id=\u00227ed07810643c445689026f51e50dd3cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ed07810643c445689026f51e50dd3cc\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. The deeper that we get into this evening, the more we see drama, theatre, performance, and fiction, and, over here, we see fact and a Government that is looking to get things done to get this country back on track. Let me give you some facts this evening. This bill does a few simple things: it ensures we\u2019re clear on who owes allegiance to the sovereign and the right of New Zealand; it clarifies the effect of dual citizenship; it replaces the term \u201Cenemy alien\u201D; it makes it a question of law whether a person owes allegiance; it makes simple amendments to the offence provisions; and it ensures safeguards for protests, advocacy, and industrial action. It is a simple bill. Let\u2019s forget the fiction; let\u2019s focus on fact. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022 data-id=\u00223fadf9e251374668ae31cf51fcd6ba57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223fadf9e251374668ae31cf51fcd6ba57\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker, and thank you very much for this opportunity. Foreign interference grows and evolves when our communities let their guard down. Foreign interference takes many shapes and forms in our communities far and wide. For the most part, New Zealanders go to bed at night and sleep well, blissfully unaware of actually what is happening out there in this country and, indeed, around the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EIn my years as defence Minister, I saw firsthand the challenge that our services face and, of course, the challenges that this country faces when it comes to matters such as espionage and to matters such as foreign interference. The hardest part during that time was trying to decipher between the overt kind of foreign interference and the covert kind of foreign interference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EIn terms of the overt: when you\u2019re engaged in espionage-like activity, it becomes pretty clear that it\u2019s not the right thing to do, and there are mechanisms to ensure that that person or those people who are found to be engaged in that kind of espionage or those kinds of acts certainly come before the judgment of the courts and, indeed, the public scrutiny that this country should expect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EHowever, the more covert part is the challenge, and I take the point of a number of colleagues on this side of the House, in particular, who talk to the fact that for the large majority in our community, simply scrolling on social media becomes a part of that grey area, because a large part of that interference, a large part of that influence, comes through social media and other mechanisms which might not be so overt to all of us here in the House. But it is a challenge and it is a question that should be asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EI understand that through the course of this bill there is some good engagement, and, indeed, I know members on this side of the House offered a number of amendments and suggestions that could strengthen this bill and make it in the shape where we could support it, which is what we will be doing this evening\u2014but we still do have some questions. What we know, too, when it comes to matters such as foreign interference is that they evolve quickly, they change quickly, and, of course, they\u2019ll outpace anything that this House does with respect to legislation. It just does; it\u2019s a fact. In order to make sure that we can give ourselves the best protection, we must make sure that legislation\u2014this particular bill and any future legislation that can be proposed in this House\u2014can look towards making sure that it is fit for purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003ENow, I know, and we all know in this House, that, particularly led by this Government, there seems to be a very \u201Cbig stick\u201D approach to these matters. \u201CIncrease the fine and that\u2019ll deter them.\u201D\u2014that\u2019s usually what we hear: \u201CIncrease the fine and that\u2019ll deter them.\u201D Well, my experience in this space as a former Minister is that fines don\u2019t deter them, because the outcome of foreign interference is far greater than any fine that can be thrown at them by this House. That\u2019s just a fact. We\u2019ve got to ask ourselves, then: are bills fit for purpose?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EA number of the amendments in this particular bill are, I think, smart ones. They\u2019ll continue to look towards making sure that we can have a bill that is fit for purpose, but there are still questions and those questions must continue to be answered. We are welcoming many more people on to these shores to fill key roles in our workforce and in our community. These people find themselves in our community. They become a big part of our community, and what we don\u2019t want is the kind of reverse effect where everybody looks over their shoulder or takes a second look at our wh\u0101nau, takes a second look at people in our community who call New Zealand home. And they have every right to; they raise their families here. They\u2019re involved in our community, they\u2019re a big part of our community, and most people think that\u2019s just in Auckland. That\u2019s not true. We have so much diversity right across this country, yet the views across all those different places can differ significantly from Auckland all the way down to the South Island. It\u2019s important that we make sure that in this approach, in this particular bill, we can continue to have a mind towards communities to keep them safe and those who call our communities home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EI take the point made by Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan with respect to his community and how we can make them feel safer here in New Zealand. This bill does part of that and we support that, and that\u2019s why we should, but we also know that there are other matters that continually come up in this House that aren\u2019t necessarily covered by this bill but are looked to be covered in other parts that a Government might explore in its legislative agenda, such as matters like free speech. We\u2019ve already been very clear on this side of the House and in the Labour Party that the right to protest is part of being in a good democracy, to make sure that wh\u0101nau and people right around this country can stand up for what they believe in, as long as they do it safely and as long as they don\u2019t impinge on the rights of others. But they can make their point really clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EHowever, the problem when we talk about foreign interference in the manner that I\u2019ve heard this evening and, indeed, through the passage of this bill, is that, sadly, that brings more question marks with respect to parts of our community, and I\u2019m sure that\u2019s not the intention. However, that is the language that we\u2019re hearing and that is a concern to us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c422447af22e4c89a5e5b07cb11295e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fba71783d4c4eb88463cd06574928dc\u0022\u003ESteve Abel\u003C/span\u003E: I think you should vote against it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227927150537154d6c912ebbc8811421ff\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate Mr Steve Abel and his approach and the Green Party\u2019s approach to this. I understand my colleagues in the Labour Party worked really hard to make sure that we could express our view, in particular. But what I want to be very clear on is I can\u2019t stand here in the House and agree with much of what my tu\u0101kana Rawiri Waititi said, and that\u2019s simply because of my experience as a defence Minister. It\u2019s easy to stand up and say, \u201COh, it\u2019s an alignment that looks like this.\u201D Well, actually, if you look into those particular agreements and those treaties of the past, they are very different\u2014they are very different. While I understand his concern, I can\u2019t support much of what he\u2019s said this evening simply because, for the most part, it does seem rather inflammatory. It does seem, as a view towards gaslighting, something that is actually very serious. It should be considered by all members of the House as something that we can engage in in order to protect citizens in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EAs I\u2019ve said, we will be supporting this bill. We want to make sure, though, that we continue to keep an eye on these very important matters to make sure that, however this bill moves forward into the future\u2014and, indeed, any bill that might come after it that looks towards matters around countering foreign interference\u2014it is fit for purpose, given the quick and evolving nature of foreign interference around the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EDuring this urgency session, we spoke on a number of bills around the national interest. The national interest is something that must continue to be a test where we look towards protecting the national interest, at all costs. I think that for a number of the bills that have been passed through this urgency, we\u2019ll continue to debate them. We\u2019ll continue to make sure that we test them and challenge them so that that particular matter of national interest is held to the forefront.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EFinally, from me, many of the members in this House won\u2019t know it, but there is a significant and somewhat large community in the intelligence and security space in this country. You may not know it, but you\u2019ll walk down Lambton Quay and you may pass some\u2014but that\u2019s the beauty about the skills that they have, is that they seemingly are just a part of our community. You wouldn\u2019t recognise them if you\u2019re walking up the road with your wh\u0101nau, but they play an important part in our country\u2019s security network and architecture, and I want to acknowledge all of them. There are a number of agencies that are involved in that. They all have different parts\u2014from information to the matters that the New Zealand Defence Force will cover off. So, just finally, I want to acknowledge all of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003EThey\u2019ve gone through a number of changes in the past few years. There is a strengthening of the architecture of security in this country, which I actually encourage and I support. Why? Because we\u2019ve spoken many times in this House about the growing geostrategic competition, and it\u2019s important that New Zealand continues not only to protect itself but, also, to play its part in an international network to protect sovereign countries around the world. That is the least we can do. That is part of making sure that a rules-based order is something that this country and this democracy continues to believe in, while also protecting our own interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022333cbe863aa64ae7816c10ddcdfe265e\u0022\u003ESo in that vein, I will support this bill for my part as the speaker for the Labour Party, and we look forward to looking towards the next bills as we sit here in urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022 data-id=\u002233f14ef2c5344d4cbe2dfb49e680e87d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233f14ef2c5344d4cbe2dfb49e680e87d\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. That was quite a balanced and reasonable contribution from Peeni Henare, and I commend him for it, but the gap between his contribution and the others that we\u2019ve heard, particularly from Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, is extremely stark. The tinfoil-hat wearers over on that side better have a listen to, actually, what their potential coalition partner just said in his contribution, because the gap is incredibly large. Actually, the reason we support this legislation and are bringing it about is because there is real common sense behind it. There is not the scaremongering that those on that side of the House are so concerned about. The Trumpism that Rawiri Waititi talked about and the Atlas Network and all of this sort of stuff that they constantly go on and on about is just complete rubbish\u2014it is complete conspiracy theory playbook 101. This legislation strengthens New Zealand\u2019s criminal law to better prevent and respond to foreign interference which is targeting New Zealand. It is a good thing, a common-sense piece of legislation. That\u2019s why I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022 data-id=\u00228904475c305f461e8f74d374fa5f122f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228904475c305f461e8f74d374fa5f122f\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am the co-chair of the Inter-Parliamentary Alliance on China (IPAC). This is a cross-party group\u2014which means that it is supposed to not be political\u2014which looks at the influence of China around the world. One of the things, from my about five years in that role, that I\u2019m very clear about is that the best protection from any foreign interference is to be country-agnostic and to assume that there is interference from people from all over the world, from State actors everywhere, and to safeguard and protect your own sovereignty. I think, for those reasons, I do support this bill but very much with the caveats that were raised by the Hon Dr Duncan Webb, because it is a fine line in terms of drawing the net to make sure that human rights are observed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to make the point that I had concerns in my IPAC role about potential unintended consequences of this bill for Chinese New Zealanders. There is evidence, through IPAC internationally, to show that sometimes, while the intention of a bill like this may be to provide more support and freedom of speech and safeguard from coercion, in fact, the experience can be one where they tend to go underground and will be less likely to engage with New Zealand officials\u2014such as the police, for example\u2014and may also face more stigma and harassment. I guess we have to watch and wait and see, and the fourth estate will have a very important job to do in terms of assessing what the real impact of this legislation will be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EIt is intended to provide those safeguards, but I have to say that sunlight is the best disinfectant for foreign interference, and my nervousness is also that the Government members are trumpeting this as if it is a bit of a silver bullet when, in fact, as the Hon Peeni Henare said, foreign interference comes in many forms. It can be a real slow burn. We see influence via business, via funding, via university research, via land acquisition, and also, actually, in the interests that make our strategic assets vulnerable. We have seen, for example, legislation go through this House this year that has weakened our overseas investment rules, which I think puts in peril, or at least at risk, some of our strategic assets\u2014these are things like ports, airports, infrastructure, and so on\u2014not only because, ultimately, in some countries they can be taken over by a foreign State in conflict but, also, it does make countries more vulnerable to the funder. That\u2019s just a reality of life, and that is country-agnostic. We need to think very carefully about the strength of our national interest rule.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EAlso, the bill is pretty narrow. It is targeted at individuals around covert activity, deception, coercion, corruption, and so on. To me, it seems a little bit like the anti-smacking law: while the intent is good, it is very difficult to draw the lines, and it\u2019s going to take some real judgment from the authorities in terms of how this is applied. In the area of foreign interference, that is extremely difficult, because it\u2019s inevitable that politics will come into play and that the executive of the day, depending on how they see the world, could have a bearing on the way these laws are interpreted. Again, I would stress that being country and actor - agnostic and really looking at behaviours and safeguards is the only way to approach this when applying the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThe other thing I would say is that we\u2019ve got numerous things we need to do apart from safeguarding our national security laws. I think we need to really resource strengthening cybersecurity. We\u2019ve seen data breaches already. We need more awareness. I feel, when I speak to IPAC colleagues from around the world, that there is a level of naivety in New Zealand around the exposure to foreign interference from all sorts of States. We probably need to have stronger lobbying disclosures, in my view, and that raises issues, but it\u2019s a discussion that needs to at least be had. There needs to be more inter-agency sharing of data. We need to really monitor disinformation and misinformation campaigns, and there\u2019s some great models of that, for example in Taiwan, where they have an active unit set up to assess the veracity and to provide counter information where that information is shown to not be credible. As I\u2019ve said, I think we need more resourcing for our intelligence agencies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThis is not a silver bullet. It\u2019s a good start. I hope that it has the intended consequences, particularly for our Chinese nationals living in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eae59f3e82d4436096e2ee11043f94d6\u0022 data-id=\u00223e9e57f5ade24f58b30e917c00ed8d52\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eae59f3e82d4436096e2ee11043f94d6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e9e57f5ade24f58b30e917c00ed8d52\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA (National\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Crimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill strengthens New Zealand criminal law. It ensures New Zealand criminal law sufficiently addresses the harm of foreign interference, and it will better equip relevant agencies to hold people to account. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3d15ab310264b109bb3b5929cbc8787\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3d15ab310264b109bb3b5929cbc8787\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I, like my colleagues in the Labour Party, rise to speak in favour of and support of this bill, but I would just like to start by saying, in reply to Tom Rutherford\u2019s comments that he made earlier congratulating Peeni Henare\u2014quite rightly so; I thought that was an excellent speech, as well\u2014I think, in terms of that big gap in the question of balance, I would have liked to hear more of an acknowledgment from that side of the House that, yes, this is something that we need to do, but, eyes wide open, we are touching on rights here. There is genuinely some broad language\u2014for example, in the intent space, there is \u201Cought to know\u201D that they are concealing their identity, etc. There is quite broad language, and when we move into a space like legislating in the security and intelligence space, there are times when we must do it, but we have to also acknowledge that there are rights in play, and there are pieces of legislation that should deservingly be under review and active monitoring. This is certainly one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI am often concerned that, sometimes, when we shift the lines of the law, it will shift behaviours, as well. What we\u2019re seeing internationally is the growth of transnational repression by some States. Often, we\u2019ll see the hard end of that in the news. I read an article by Human Rights Watch, and it was titled \u201CWe Will Find You\u201D. It was a story about how some Governments continue to actively monitor dissidents when they leave their countries and find ways to pressure them, or even, at times, execute them. One quite famous example of this is Jamal Khashoggi, who was a Saudi national who left Saudi and went to Istanbul, and he was entering a building to get marriage papers for him and his wife when he was executed inside, while his wife was waiting on the outside. Those are the stories that make it into the news, but in reality, what is happening more and more\u2014and Freedom House reports this\u2014is that Governments are often putting pressure on students to undertake various seemingly innocuous activities, which they must do or they lose some of their benefits in their home country, or family members might be losing benefits, as well. That is happening, and I do think we need to be aware of shifting behaviours as we put this legislation into place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI often look to Canada in this space as a model of a shift in terms of legislation and policy and what we could be doing or what, perhaps, we might do next. This year, Canada appointed its first foreign interference commissioner, and they did so off the back of a public review on foreign interference last year. This was one of the steps that they took, and the quote that came out with the announcement included: \u201CWe put the world on notice that Canada is an independent, sovereign nation with a clear ability to ensure the safety and security of Canadians.\u201D They were basing this move very firmly on data that showed that it was happening to a huge extent. We haven\u2019t done that in New Zealand\u2014we haven\u2019t done a public review that shows us all the corners of where interference might be. This piece of legislation is coming out of a Government piece of work, but there hasn\u2019t been that broader public review. The Justice Committee does often include this as a component on its election review, but my view is that it\u2019s timely to do a more public review, over a number of years, and that this piece of legislation should also become part of such a review to test whether it\u2019s working in the way that we wanted it to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThere were a number of amendments that were proposed\u2014both by submitters but also at the committee of the whole House stage\u2014which weren\u2019t included, and also questions for clarification that I agree with my Green Party colleagues about. We were referred back to common law principles, and I made the point that, well, common law defences, in particular, can only be incorporated if they are reasonably clear. In this case, they aren\u2019t, in terms of when you can denounce your citizenship and whether you still owe that allegiance or not. There are certainly things in the law as it\u2019s written now that do need to be tested, potentially challenged in the court, and then brought back to the House in terms of a final review, a periodic review, at some stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI thought other proposals that the select committee made were excellent, including one that many have referenced about ensuring that the question of allegiance is one of law. The difficulty is that, regardless of that being clarified in the legislation, we will still have a question of fact largely before the courts because it isn\u2019t defined as well as it potentially could have been. The other issue that was raised was about the definition of improper conduct and, also, clarifying the scope of committing an imprisonable offence to benefit a foreign power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThe Law Society also made some very interesting points, I thought, including a very novel argument. They suggested considering providing a defence, equivalent to a proviso that they had suggested earlier in their document, that if there is conduct counselled or procured that\u2019s lawful in the jurisdiction where it occurs but unlawful in New Zealand\u2014and they gave the argument of someone who had been instructed through the military to do some action that might be considered mutiny, but they were directed to do it lawfully in the third country\u2014we should, therefore, take into account circumstances where we wouldn\u2019t necessarily want to have liability incur in those circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI want to make just a point about the House\u2019s consideration of issues like this. We haven\u2019t seen the Government members engaging with some of the rights issues that were raised in select committee\u2014not in this discussion. Granted, some of them did engage, in the select committee process, with those rights issues and where the balances ought to be. I did think that it was unfortunate that the section 7 report didn\u2019t conduct an adequate analysis of whether the limitation of the right to freedom of expression was reasonable or not. Looking at section 22 of the section 7 report, it says this: \u201CThe right to freedom of expression has been interpreted as including the freedom to seek, receive and impart information of all kinds. However, it is accepted that the exercise of the right needs to take into account other rights and interests and may be subject to necessary restrictions, as provided by law.\u201D That\u2019s it\u2014that\u2019s all it says. \u201COne such restriction is the protection of national security.\u201D It\u2019s possibly the broadest framing of how you could justify a limitation on the right. It goes on to say: \u201CWe consider the limits on [section] 14 embodied in the amendments \u2026 are demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI\u2019m a bit troubled\u2014especially given the importance of the right to freedom of expression\u2014that there has been such a loose and light assessment of (1) whether the limitations that are set out in the existing drafting are reasonable and (2) whether there are other ways of drafting the limitations to ensure that there isn\u2019t an over-impediment into freedom of expression. Again, I go back, as the final example of that, to the new section 78AAA, where one of the mens rea for the offence is that \u201Cthe person knows, or ought to know that they are engaging in the conduct for or on behalf of another foreign power;\u201D. You can imagine, with that many degrees of separation, that there may be cases where individuals simply do not know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EOnce again, while I am supporting this bill, I do so with eyes wide open that there are rights issues here, and I urge the House to consider a more thorough review of security, intelligence, and interference\u2014including transnational repression. For now, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc18fca1517544d48a85a448eabd4308\u0022 data-id=\u0022d36e5cab493b4a799d5d3fd00a55052c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc18fca1517544d48a85a448eabd4308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d36e5cab493b4a799d5d3fd00a55052c\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I feel really privileged to be in this position, where, as the last speaker, I am ushering the Crimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill from a bill stage to an Act of Parliament stage. As our excellent Minister of Justice said earlier, foreign interference is not acceptable. As someone of a Lebanese background, I know firsthand what foreign interference does to countries like my beautiful parents\u2019 homeland of Lebanon. Sometimes it\u2019s very inconspicuous; it\u2019s masked as the greater good. But it was, in fact, foreign interference and still is in Lebanon, so I\u2019m glad that we are passing this tonight. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223815c066508f44fd9ed4fef45a7c1290\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Crimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11;New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 21\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001082\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8c027d4035a445aaf014b9ed86a6edb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8c027d4035a445aaf014b9ed86a6edb\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for the consideration of the Crimes Legislation (Stalking and Harassment) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cf5cda967b804e06888e2e226a5b5975\u0022\u003ECrimes Legislation (Stalking and Harassment) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c42ff67b456745baa6514842baccbe13\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002206b9248de25a446fb4f55b405d8d80e7\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Crimes Act 1961\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e569d423d5e1432495c9b8e2db910636\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e569d423d5e1432495c9b8e2db910636\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Crimes Legislation (Stalking and Harassment) Amendment Bill. We start with Part 1. This is the debate on clauses 3 and 4, \u201CAmendments to Crimes Act 1961\u201D. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022 data-id=\u0022627de0303a7f43edbfda5cd055ba3d7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022627de0303a7f43edbfda5cd055ba3d7e\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Thank you for the opportunity. I\u2019ll be upfront: there\u2019s been a number of people waiting a long time for this legislation to pass, so we don\u2019t intend to hold this up. We want it to proceed because it has been well overdue in being implemented. So I will briefly speak to the three amendments in my name that were tabled. All three amendments relate to clause 4, new section 2160(1)(b) and that\u2019s in relation to the mental component for the offence of stalking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EOne of the main issues that has been repeatedly raised by advocates within the sector is that quite often the accused stalker\u2014in situations where there is an ongoing, repeated pattern of stalking\u2014that person who is doing that behaviour is often deluded or unaware of the impact on the victim. Sometimes they are, but sometimes they aren\u2019t. So our concern\u2014and it is not just on this side of the House; it is in with advocates in the sector, as well\u2014is the mental element of \u201Cknowing\u201D may not be able to capture a prosecution, because quite often someone thinks that their affection is wanted or even reciprocated when it is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EThis tabled amendment amends the Crimes Legislation (Stalking and Harassment) Amendment Bill\u2014and I\u2019ve provided three different options for the Minister to consider in the three separate amendments. That would be to replace \u201Cknowing\u201D with\u2014the first option is to \u201Chaving reasonable grounds to believe\u201D. The second one is \u201Cwithout believing on reasonable grounds\u201D. The third one is when a person \u201Cknows or ought to know\u201D, so a reasonable person test being introduced as the mens rea component to this offence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EThe primary reason is that we believe that it will be difficult to prove that the person was \u201Cknowing\u201D that they were likely to cause fear or distress. To prove that a defendant did know their behaviour was causing fear of distress would potentially require proof beyond reasonable doubt that the defendant knew that they engaged in a pattern of behaviour that caused that fear and distress to another person. For example, if they were intoxicated, if they were cognitively impaired at the time, the defendants could argue that they did not knowingly engage in that behaviour that causes fear or distress to that other person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EWhile we are strongly supportive of this legislation proceeding, we do believe that the mental component of this offence could be strengthened by replacing \u201Cknowing\u201D by a reasonable person test, to make sure that\u2014in a situation where the accused is saying they didn\u2019t know or they weren\u2019t aware of the impact of their actions\u2014that would not result in there not being a prosecution when there should be one. This is specific to this offence, for the fact that potential offenders to be captured under this legislation are, more often than not, not in a rational state about the reciprocation of their feelings to another person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EWe believe that it\u2019s quite a specific ground and we\u2019ve had direct feedback from previous victims and from advocates within the sector that this change would strengthen the legislation and make it stronger for victims to be able to have their safety protected and to prevent situations where stalking is ongoing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022 data-id=\u00223025865dd3a342eab714ae1c8ed9e494\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223025865dd3a342eab714ae1c8ed9e494\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. We echo the same sentiments as my colleague Ginny Andersen, in terms of advocates who have pushed so hard for this bill have been waiting for decades for this, so we don\u2019t want to prolong that any further. My questions are around a similar aspect to Ginny Andersen\u2019s, around the mental component of knowing that your actions might cause harm to somebody. I wanted to ask whether the Minister would consider inserting provisions around \u201Cought to know\u201D or, potentially, \u201Cknowing that an act might cause harm to person B or any reasonable person.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EThe reason that we\u2019re interested in these kinds of amendments is because stalkers can be delusional, and they can be completely unaware, whether deliberately or not, of the psychological impacts of their actions, and so we want to capture that so that if a perpetrator tries to deny, that they didn\u2019t realise it would cause harm or distress, that isn\u2019t a defence in that case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EThe other tabled amendment that I want to speak to in relation to clause 4\u2014it\u2019s under my name\u2014is around police notification. I\u2019m really hoping that the Minister might be open to collaborating on this aspect. Obviously, this bill introduces police notification upon the first reporting of any of the specified acts under this bill. We are asking that the constable that is involved in any investigation informs the victim before they provide the notice under that police notification. The reason that we want the police to give this information to person B is because this will give them a heads-up that their perpetrator will be informed. This means that they can make preparations themselves to ensure that they are safe, to ensure that they know what is coming, to insulate themselves against any retaliation that person A might undertake in order to intimidate person B.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EThose are really the only questions we have on Part 1, but we really would like the Minister to consider our amendment around the constable having to inform person B before serving the notice to person A.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022da1ced458bbb416998dfd88929b59ff4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da1ced458bbb416998dfd88929b59ff4\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Yeah, so just looking at this bill and there are only two points that I have got, two Amendment Papers that I would like to speak to. Potentially, we\u2019re happy for the Minister to ignore these Amendment Papers if the ministerial intent is already such that these are being considered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThe first one is around the new section 216P(1)(a)(v) inserted by clause 4, which is \u201Cdamaging or undermining person B\u2019s reputation, opportunities, or relationships:\u201D. I\u2019m just seeking the Minister\u2019s advice, I guess, because my Amendment Paper says afterwards \u201Cincluding through sharing information person B does not want to share with others\u201D. The intention of that is to ensure that the recording or tracking of person B will adequately address the kind of information\u2014sorry, I just realised that that was looked at in a different section. But the idea is that when you are looking at something like this, the amendment is hoping to address the behaviours are adequately covered. So the idea is that when we\u2019re looking at opportunities or relationships that are damaging for person B that it also includes through sharing of information that potentially might be publicly available, such as social media.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EFor the other Amendment Paper, we are looking at section 216P(1)(a)(vi), which is after \u201Cto a reasonable person\u201D, insert \u201Cin these particular circumstances\u201D. Again, this comes from submitters and organisations who have had a lot of experience dealing with cases like this\u2014just to say that, for example, for women with additional vulnerabilities, the threshold for person A to cause fear or distress may be lower than a reasonable person, and the defence is turning on whether what a reasonable person should be expected to tolerate may also be unfairly prejudicial to minority groups.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EAgain, for both of these two amendments, if they are things the Minister thinks are already covered under the existing definition, that\u2019s all good; we\u2019re happy to leave the amendments. But we just want to get a steer from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI think, lastly, just to my colleague Tamatha Paul\u2019s point in terms of her amendment. This is something that we\u2019re hoping that we have adjusted this particular amendment from \u201Cconstable must consult\u201D to \u201Cinform\u201D but considering this is something that we\u2019ve seen in overseas jurisdictions and it\u2019s hugely beneficial, we do seek the Minister\u2019s support on this particular amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022 data-id=\u00222b2e54091770454cba9b539b1f527325\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b2e54091770454cba9b539b1f527325\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m very pleased that we\u2019ve got to this point of the committee of the whole House stage. As members have already noted, this is something that petitioners, and particularly women\u2019s groups, have been asking for, for many years. The good news is that we as a Government said we would aim to have this legislated before the end of the year, and I\u2019m very delighted that, with the support, I think, of all sides of the House, we\u2019re managing to achieve that. I want to thank all members in Parliament for that support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003EThe issue that has been raised a couple of times already is around the question of mens rea. People tuning in might be wondering what that is. There has been great debate about the test, because what this legislation does is criminalise stalking and harassment. It includes a very wide range of behaviours: watching, following, loitering near, or obstructing a person, recording or tracking a person, contacting or communicating with a person, damaging or devaluing or moving or entering or interfering with property\u2014a long list of things. Of course, a lot of those things people do on a regular basis in many ways, and so we held it was important to include a standard that \u201C[knowing] that pattern of behaviour \u2026 is likely to cause fear or distress\u201D\u2014knowing that the pattern of behaviour is likely to cause fear or distress\u2014and doing two of such things within a two-year period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003EWe think that\u2019s important. If you took that away and just said \u201Cought to know\u201D, or lowered that threshold, there is a real risk\u2014you know, there is potential maximum five-year prison sentence. If there was a lower standard, there is a risk, given the wide net of specified acts, that we would subject people who are annoying but innocuous to being liable to a lengthy prison sentence. That\u2019s why we do think that the clear hurdle of knowing that the pattern of behaviour is likely to cause fear or distress is important. Of course, I mean, a lot of behaviours where it\u2019s a threat of harm made to a victim would obviously be that, but in other situations, a prosecutor would only need to show that a victim or a friend or a family member told the stalker that they were scaring the victim and that would deliver that. And, of course, we\u2019ve also developed a Police notice system to take that even further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003EI just want to mention briefly that the National Party has decided to agree to Tamatha Paul\u2019s Amendment Paper 439, that a constable must inform person B before providing a notice under the subsection of the Act, so that police can inform victims. Now, that was something that was raised by committee members and submitters. The advice I\u2019ve had is that Police operational guidelines already require staff to consult with victims when decisions are made to issue warnings or other notices. We don\u2019t think it\u2019s strictly necessary, but we\u2019re prepared to accept that one. Otherwise, we\u2019re keen to get this legislation through. I\u2019m happy to answer any more questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff775135e61c4e95af2c92c58bf12a52\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa96ba7c2eba4a98bce8386dd57c2106\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff775135e61c4e95af2c92c58bf12a52\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa96ba7c2eba4a98bce8386dd57c2106\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just a question for the Minister of Justice, just in relation to the Amendment Paper by Tamatha Paul, it does seem sensible, but I do want to just understand in more detail what the actual term \u201Cconsult\u201D does mean. You referred to police operations already consulting, but what does actually consulting mean in this case with \u201Cperson B\u201D, and would that actually\u2014yeah, I mean, we just want to understand a bit more about what that means, just to make sure that this isn\u2019t going to inhibit people actually being charged under this regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022 data-id=\u00226ce6c40549724ec89bb099010255b09b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ce6c40549724ec89bb099010255b09b\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Well, my reading of Amendment Paper 439 is that the constable must inform\u2014the word \u201Cconsult\u201D is not used; it\u2019s \u201Cinform\u201D, 439. Have I got that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff775135e61c4e95af2c92c58bf12a52\u0022 data-id=\u002261caae101749495385d5fd5216fbea90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff775135e61c4e95af2c92c58bf12a52\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261caae101749495385d5fd5216fbea90\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E No, and that\u2019s why I\u2019m asking for\u2014it actually does use the word \u201Cconsult\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eee01db824214408aa52f2e326bdc3c5\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, we might be able to explain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225210460f179f4cdaafcf6f829fdc155a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Minister, feel free to take time to consult, if you\u2019d like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022075bb5670a8844238ef9a70a6bedcaf0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022075bb5670a8844238ef9a70a6bedcaf0\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Mr Chair. Just to clarify for the Minister of Justice and also for the member Todd Stephenson, Amendment Paper 439 does in fact say \u201Cconsult\u201D, but that\u2019s not the paper that we\u2019re going to be looking at. It is a new tabled amendment that we just put forward. It should be available on there, and it\u2019s also under the name of Tamatha. We\u2019re no longer looking for support for Amendment Paper 439; it\u2019s the new one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff775135e61c4e95af2c92c58bf12a52\u0022 data-id=\u00229aa42f56eb324d4caa1ef6292e819b3d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff775135e61c4e95af2c92c58bf12a52\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229aa42f56eb324d4caa1ef6292e819b3d\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E OK, thank you, well, that\u2019s helpful clarification, but maybe if the Minister of Justice can just make sure he has the right amendment and we are clear about what we\u2019re agreeing to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ee8df2791494de5814bd61fad32044a\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Yes\u2014yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241d79ca4d8834defbcc62b40e05b0f8a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Feel free to take time to sort out\u2014you\u2019re right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5bab8ed335641458b8f7f5084b745b3\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I\u2019d just like to know the number of the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff775135e61c4e95af2c92c58bf12a52\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ee4e40c8c474789a9446b557642f8e8\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, they\u2019re both called 439; that\u2019s the issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022466dda0e9264475ab16e1e8f8affa172\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: All right, well, Todd Stephenson, you\u2019ve still got the call; I think I\u2019ll go back to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff775135e61c4e95af2c92c58bf12a52\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a5311d3aa514661b2673758e1fe6a07\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, well, thank you. I mean, yeah, Minister, once you\u2019ve got the right amendment, and if it is \u201Cinform\u201D\u2014is that now the term, rather than \u201Cconsult\u201D?\u2014maybe the Minister just wants to comment on the term \u201Cinform\u201D, but it does sound then that it\u2019s like a very straightforward amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e0095cb18c249e5a93a661ae209f97d\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff775135e61c4e95af2c92c58bf12a52\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dea9b1206284e349cf4b0990e88e3d1\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON\u003C/span\u003E: But it\u2019s probably good that we have that clarity at this stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5297895c6584993b5d6d45862095736\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: This is the interaction we really want in a committee of the whole House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u00229684f4b9f0bc4d7e83d7a42aecf5eaf6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229684f4b9f0bc4d7e83d7a42aecf5eaf6\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Again, just to reiterate, the Amendment Paper\u2014that is, 439\u2014is not the version that we\u2019re hoping to seek the support of the Minister of Justice for; it is the new tabled amendment that has just been put on the Table that we\u2019re seeking the Minister\u2019s support for. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a93161ad81ea43eba0b6b3d8b7cc4496\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: With the same number?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227402c132c224403f8ae7588429a3b010\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: There is no number because it\u2019s a tabled amendment, so I guess the tabled amendment that is 9.15.04 on 19 November 2025 is the most accurate code I can provide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e37c40e390f644c58b0424660f536259\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e37c40e390f644c58b0424660f536259\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. To the Minister of Justice: I want to get, if I could, some sense of your confidence in the application of when\u2014like, in this instance, if we\u2019re talking about \u201Cinform\u201D or \u201Cconsult\u201D or whatever it is, probably the key word is \u201Cbefore\u201D\u2014that sentiment or that expectation is. When patterns are as they are in stalking, or patterns in family harm, or patterns in domestic violence\u2014patterns when they\u2019re set are hard to break. I did want to check if the Minister could just elaborate on that a bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003EMy own experience in this field tells me that it takes a lot of practice, and shift of attitude and mind in this space, whether it\u2019s about stalking or family harm, but in this instance it is about stalking and patterns. Simply making a change\u2014some good changes, by the way; I support it. But it\u2019s always in how these things end up being applied on the ground and what confidence you have, and I\u2019m sure you do\u2014that then when we\u2019re talking to advocates that are continuing to contact and go, \u201CMinimal\u2014is this far enough? How secure can we actually feel when these things kick in? How safe can I really feel?\u201D So I\u2019m keen to get some confidence, if you\u2019ve got some confidence, that when it\u2019s applied, it\u2019s true, it\u2019s safe, it\u2019s genuine, and women\u2014mainly women\u2014that are survivors, or not survivors, of this terrible situation can feel safe or better off because of it. Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u002242382c4444ea4a91bd71e20069997b18\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242382c4444ea4a91bd71e20069997b18\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Ginny Andersen\u2019s amendment to clause 4, new section 216O(1)(b), to replace \u201Cknowing\u201D with \u201Chaving reasonable grounds to believe\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225afff6fcd6b24dd599e8ef2a840caabd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00225983cbb6dff44ae5b8919aaf75b0b194\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225983cbb6dff44ae5b8919aaf75b0b194\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Ginny Andersen\u2019s amendments to clause 4, new section 216O(1)(b), to replace \u201Cknowing\u201D with \u201Cwithout believing on reasonable grounds\u201D and replace \u201Clikely\u201D with \u201Cunlikely\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022febdadd212e2404981a71ffd3ea7dbd6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022e87347d2b4f145e5a711410c937a6af7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e87347d2b4f145e5a711410c937a6af7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Ginny Andersen\u2019s amendment to clause 4, new section 216O(1)(b), to replace \u201Cknowing\u201D with \u201Cwhen Person A knows or ought to know\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ac76958bc796454aa42cc45701c2e8b3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae7dcad05c5542de82bf48c4739d7d83\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae7dcad05c5542de82bf48c4739d7d83\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s amendment to clause 4, new section 216O(1)(b), to replace \u201Cknowing\u201D with \u201Cin circumstances when they know or ought to know\u201D, is out of order as being the same in substance as a previous amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s amendment to clause 4, new section 216O(1)(b), to replace \u201Cknowing\u201D with \u201Cthat person A knows or ought to know\u201D, is out of order as being the same in substance as a previous amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EThe question is that Tamatha Paul\u2019s amendment to clause 4, new section 216O, set out on Amendment Paper 439 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222fde0652c12a44f1b51dcb8ef331a608\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00222c92939134d942d7aabe6017a7b25051\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c92939134d942d7aabe6017a7b25051\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tamatha Paul\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4, new section 216O, inserting subsection (3A), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0f02ca89a28478993cf70e95da8eed0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0f02ca89a28478993cf70e95da8eed0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4, new section 216P(1)(a)(v), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00222d28787e83b1409f83143cf84ca8c8b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d28787e83b1409f83143cf84ca8c8b8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Kahurangi Carter\u2019s amendments to clause 4, new sections 216P and 216Q, set out on Amendment Paper 351 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00228675b443f3eb4cacbe42fa1e962ab7cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228675b443f3eb4cacbe42fa1e962ab7cb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4, new section 216P(1)(a)(vi), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f764afe50baf427a920c1f9a8f858424\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f764afe50baf427a920c1f9a8f858424\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Tamatha Paul\u2019s amendment to clause 4 inserting new section 216QA, set out on Amendment Paper 438, is out of order as being outside the scope of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EThe question is that Kahurangi Carter\u2019s amendment to clause 4 inserting new section 216T, set out on Amendment Paper 352, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022722834de61d74302be8a5b020994cc30\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to other Acts\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00221039cd6ea15c428e893322785e8411f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221039cd6ea15c428e893322785e8411f8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 2, the debate on clauses 5 to 27, \u201CAmendments to other Acts\u201D. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EThe question is that Tamatha Paul\u2019s amendment inserting new clause 24AA set out on Amendment Paper 437 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002295a0fe818ace46018629fa32fdb8d98c\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4bf642c4dc94034912a000293556905\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4bf642c4dc94034912a000293556905\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to our final debate. This is the debate on clauses 1 and 2, \u201CTitle\u201D and \u201CCommencement\u201D. The question is that clause 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022369d39ca914844beb580a42a546f120d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022369d39ca914844beb580a42a546f120d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, the committee has considered the Crimes Legislation (Stalking and Harassment) Amendment Bill and reports it with amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022507bab9be7c6401f91cd0e725f45736b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022507bab9be7c6401f91cd0e725f45736b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bc5978561c194d66bbc746cca92f6425\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6a62acfb6404867a47f8548a72d9a45\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6a62acfb6404867a47f8548a72d9a45\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Crimes Legislation (Stalking and Harassment) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218cb5be7533041b5b701e46640746a4d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7efc9a7e5ea4be0b5c3dbfe48e49c2f\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Crimes Legislation (Stalking and Harassment) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003EStalking and harassment is vicious, sinister, and can be deadly. After years of discussion, this Government has strengthened the law to put a stop to this insidious behaviour and to keep victims safe. Stalking and harassment, sadly, can affect any New Zealander. However, women are greatly overrepresented as victims by the deluded, the sexist, and the abusive. Even worse, their children are frequently exploited to surveil victims, pass on threats, or even be threatened themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003EThis bill will help to protect everyone, but especially women and their families. This bill would not be possible without the tireless advocacy and help of many people. Last year\u2019s petitioners championed this cause, and I want to personally thank the Coalition for the Safety of Women and Children for organising the petition. I\u2019m pleased that as a Government, and indeed as a Parliament, we\u2019ve been able to keep our commitment to pass legislation before the end of this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003EI also want to thank the more than 600 submitters to the Justice Committee. Many of them bravely shared their own stories, experiences, and the impact of stalking and harassment on their lives. The Justice Committee itself deserves special thanks: they listened carefully to those stories to improve the bill for everybody\u2019s benefit. The committee\u2019s work shows that when an important issue comes up, the House can work together to make a difference for all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to take a moment to step through the important aspects of the bill. The bill amends the Crimes Act to create a new offence of stalking and harassment. The new offence is defined as a pattern of behaviour which the offender knew was likely to cause the victim fear or distress. The pattern of behaviour is defined as two specified acts within a two-year period. These specified acts are listed in the bill and are broad. The police notice system and relevant offences are also built into the new offence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003ESupporting amendments are made to other legislation. These changes increase protections for victims and their families. Protections include allowing the Harmful Digital Communications Act and restraining orders to be made at a sentencing for the new offence, adding the offence to the Firearms Prohibition Orders regime, and preventing intimidation when giving evidence. Together, the offence and these supporting amendments provide a comprehensive response to criminal stalking and harassment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003EThis has all been drafted very carefully. Stalking and harassment is difficult to address because it can be done by any person in any way to anyone, and can occur through an open-ended list of behaviours making up a pattern of behaviour. The bill cuts through this problem with a solution: a wide net is drafted to be absolutely clear that a wider range of behaviours can be stalking and harassment. What really matters is the impact of that behaviour, and so it casts the net in three ways. First, the specified acts are drafted broadly; they capture many different forms of stalking. As an example, many people asked if the specific behaviour of making intimate visual recordings would be captured by the bill. I\u2019m pleased to say: absolutely. This behaviour is captured by the widely defined specified act of tracking or recording. The specified act could also capture audio or any other kind of intimate recordings made in public or private.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003ESecond, the bill states that a specified act is captured if it is done \u201Cin any way\u201D, including directly or indirectly. This makes it clear that a stalker or harasser cannot work around the offence with technology or covert strategies. To continue my previous example, people asked if using spyware apps to film victims through their phones would be captured. Again, this is captured by the specified act of recording or tracking with the assistance of these \u201Cin any way\u201D rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003EThird, the bill states that a specified act is captured even if it is done through a third party. This might include a friend, teacher, relative, or even a business. This addresses an especially worrying problem I mentioned earlier: abusing the trust and innocence of children to stalk parents. This might be asking a child to pass on threats to their parent, spy on their parent, or even stalking the child itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003EOf course, the other defining feature of stalking and harassment is its repetitiveness; in this bill, a \u201Cpattern of behaviour\u201D. It\u2019s been a subject of extensive debate in the media and in this House. As a result, the bill has changed through the select committee process and has a wider pattern of behaviour of two specified acts in two years. This is an important refinement of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003ESimilarly, the mental element, the mens rea for this offence, which has also been heavily debated and just also in the committee of the whole House stage; I do remain satisfied that the current standard, \u201C[knowing that] the pattern [of behaviour] is likely to cause fear or distress\u201D, is appropriate for two reasons: first, that the standard does capture the many motivations behind stalking and harassment. Those opposed to the standard argue that defendants will get away with stalking through their lies and delusions, and I understand that worry, but I have every confidence that our prosecutors and ultimately our juries are not so easily fooled. In many cases, knowing fear or distress was a likely outcome will be implicit by the nature of the behaviour\u2014for example, where threats of harm are made\u2014but in other situations, a prosecutor might only need to show that a victim, a friend, or a family member told the stalker they were scaring the victim. Thirdly, there\u2019s a police notice system that takes it further if it\u2019s issued to a stalker but the behaviour continues. A presumption of knowledge is established against the stalker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003ESecond, as lawmakers are responsible for maintaining proportionate offences, the offence has a significant maximum penalty of five years\u2019 imprisonment. If we lower the standard to such as \u201Cought to have known\u201D alongside the very wide net of specified acts, we risk losing proportionality. I understand why people feel very strongly about it, but I\u2019m convinced that the current draft and legislation achieves the right and appropriate balance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003EI\u2019m mindful that laws are only as effective as their enforcement and, to give the police agencies time to properly prepare for the new offence, the bill will come into force six months after the Royal assent. Time will be used to set up the systems necessary for an effective response. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003EBefore I conclude, I\u2019d like to thank advocates, submitters, and members of the House who have supported this bill. It\u2019s been a long time coming and this has been a very busy Government in the justice space. We\u2019ve passed a lot of legislation, but I\u2019m very pleased that we have been able to find the space and the time to get this legislation through. I want to thank the House for their support in doing this. This is a victory for the people who have argued for it for so long, for their families and for our broader society, because it sends a very clear message. It sends a message to people who think that it\u2019s appropriate to get away with these sorts of activities that society does not accept it, will not tolerate it, and will deal quite harshly with people who stalk and harass their fellow New Zealanders. I\u2019m proud to say that I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac9b9cc7eebe435982bd35b94abcf833\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac9b9cc7eebe435982bd35b94abcf833\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022 data-id=\u002298d3dd4948b4428b94bd4db677414d75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298d3dd4948b4428b94bd4db677414d75\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. This bill is for Farzana Yaqubi. I was the Minister of Police when I was informed by officials that there would be an Independent Police Conduct Authority (IPCA) report coming out on her death, and the IPCA report found that there were significant failings in how her case was investigated and brought forward, and this legislation is the direct result of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EFarzana was a young woman full of life. She knew that she was being stalked and she took every action she could do to keep herself safe. Despite her efforts and despite doing everything that we would ask of someone in her position, she lost her life. Farzana\u2019s death is a stark reminder to us all that stalking is not a minor irritation or an interpersonal misunderstanding. It is harmful, it escalates, and without clear legal tools to intervene early, the risks can be fatal. To Farzana\u2019s family, friends, and community, our thoughts are with you today. The best way this House can honour her memory is by ensuring others, hopefully, do not face the same failures and, hopefully, this legislation takes some steps towards achieving that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EStalking often begins with behaviour that can appear insignificant. In isolation, it can be a message, someone waiting outside a home, an unwanted visit to a workplace, or even an online contact from someone who comes up as anonymous. But victims experience these acts as part of a wider pattern that creates genuine fear within people\u2019s lives\u2014predominantly women\u2019s lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EToo often, victims minimise what has been happening to them because they worry that they will not be believed. For many, they are right: the existing tools have not been fit for purpose, particularly with the rise of digital tracking, technology-enabled harassment, and the use of cameras, as well, as we heard at the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EThis bill begins to address some of those gaps. By creating a clear criminal offence of stalking, for the first time stalking will be clearly defined as a pattern of specified acts, and\u2014after the changes made at the select committee which I will speak to later; that is two acts within a period of 24 months\u2014the act will be directed at a victim and carried out with knowledge that the behaviour is likely to cause fear or distress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EThis clarity matters. It reflects how stalking accurately occurs, and it ensures that police and the courts have the power and the tools they need to act. The bill sets out a modern list of specified acts, including tracking someone digitally, repeatedly contacting them, watching or following them, interfering with property or pets, or any act that could reasonably cause fear or distress. It also recognises that stalking can occur directly, indirectly, or through digital means such as devices, spyware, and even drones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EThis bill, I hope, will incentivise early intervention and will also prevent harm. A key part of this bill is the ability of police to issue a formal notification when they believe someone has already engaged in one or more specified acts. Once that notice is issued, the individual is presumed to know that any further acts could amount to stalking. This enables earlier intervention and removes the excuse of ignorance when behaviour continues over a period of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EI believe that this bill provides accountability and fair protection as well. The new offence carries a maximum penalty of 5 years\u2019 imprisonment. The bill also includes reasonable exceptions for lawful purpose, reasonable excuse, or public interest, ensuring balance and fairness remain central. This is a modernised, practical approach that strengthens victims\u2019 protection without undermining legitimate activity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to acknowledge the process to date, and first and foremost I would like to acknowledge two women in particular, and they are Alison Towns and Leonie Morris. Their relentless advocacy in this space is probably the single greatest reason why we are here seeing this legislation pass tonight in the House. They will be aware\u2014and I hope they are watching\u2014that the Government clearly stated that passing stalking legislation was not a priority for this Government. When they advocated and organised and got over 8,000 signatures delivered to the front steps of Parliament, and when they worked with me to draft a member\u2019s bill that introduced stalking as an offence and put that into the members\u2019 ballot, we saw a change in the Government. The Government changed its position and committed to passing this legislation. It is a rare and beautiful thing to happen, and good on you, Paul Goldsmith\u2014you got there in the end. I\u2019m really pleased that we got this far.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EThere were significant changes made at the select committee and they strengthened the bill and made it more likely to be able to achieve a prosecution. There is key change that I\u2019m proud we got. Previously, it was three of the specified acts in a period of 12 months. Now that is two in a period of 24 months. So, for those who are subjected to stalking behaviour when they celebrate an anniversary\u2014it might be a birthday or something where it\u2019s a common occurrence to have an annual reminder\u2014having a period that exceeds 12 months was really important, and that was feedback that we had from victims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EThe strength of submissions we received at select committee were phenomenal, and I would just like to acknowledge all those people who stepped forward and told their personal stories. That made making these changes even more convincing as to the reasons why we needed to do that. The advice and support we received throughout from advocacy groups was amazing. The level of advice and the intricate knowledge of where legislation overseas should be brought here to New Zealand and how that should work really assisted us to achieve this bill in the form it takes. This bill is not perfect. There are many areas that could be improved, but it\u2019s a good start and it\u2019s a lot better than the first draft we got at the first reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to acknowledge Andrew Bayly as the chair of the Justice Committee. He was pragmatic. He listened to victims. He understood where we could strengthen the bill and made positive changes. So I\u2019d like to thank him for his work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s important that we state why this bill matters. This bill is about real people whose lives have been disrupted, constrained, put at risk because someone has refused to leave them alone. It is for those who have changed jobs, who have moved homes or altered their daily routines in an effort to try and feel safe. It is for those targeted online or monitored through technology, and it\u2019s for the families who have already paid a price that is too high. We cannot undo the past, but we can ensure the law is no longer silent in the face of escalating harm. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EThis bill brings our law into the modern era. It provides clear definitions, earlier intervention, and stronger protection for victims. It gives police and the courts the tools they need to act decisively when behaviour starts to escalate. While no legislation can change what has happened to past victims like Farzana, this bill takes meaningful steps to ensure others have better protections in the future, and that is my hope for what this bill does. This is real victim-focused reform, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5fc4c2178e3484ea46dfa73b2a50b4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5fc4c2178e3484ea46dfa73b2a50b4f\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E I might get a little bit emotional giving this speech, because I think this is a bill that\u2019s gone through this term that I will probably remember for the rest of my life. I think a lot of the people in this room right now can be so proud of themselves for being a part of history. Finally, after decades and decades and decades of advocacy and campaigning and, above all else, women experiencing stalking and harassment and abuse and discrimination and harm in real life\u2014mentally, physically, virtually\u2014we\u2019re finally here passing New Zealand\u2019s first bill that defines and acknowledges stalking as a form of abuse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EOff the back of that committee phase, I want to acknowledge the Government; that will be the only time you hear that coming out of my mouth this term. But I do want to acknowledge Minister of Justice Goldsmith for accepting our amendment to this bill, and, through accepting that amendment, strengthening this bill for survivors. I also want to echo acknowledgments to the chair of the Justice Committee, Andrew Bayly, for the way that he treated survivors with dignity and respect and believed them and heard them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EMost importantly, I want to acknowledge survivors who have endured experiences of stalking. In particular, there are two women that come to mind. The first is Zeni Gibson. In the second reading of this bill, I spoke at length about her experience\u2014it\u2019s been well publicised\u2014but this is the story of a young woman who interacted with a stranger one time in passing, which resulted in her being violently, graphically, sexually stalked for nearly a decade, which I think really illuminates the nature of stalking in some instances. It can seem completely unexplainable that a stranger can grow such a strong, intense obsession with someone they don\u2019t even know. But that is very real, as we\u2019ve learnt from submissions, and that is something that was not priorly addressed within our legislation. So I want to acknowledge Zeni and her courage to speak up about someone who did, and continues to, stalk her, who is also a free person, from my understanding. This is a person who is walking around the streets. She spoke up fearlessly, knowing that that person was walking around the street, so I want to acknowledge her and say, Zeni, your courage contributed to us being here today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EBut there are other survivors who are not here today to see this finally happening. I also want to mihi to Farzana Yaqubi, and just the regret in which we come to this, today, having lost so many women, because we experience too much violence in this world and in this society, but also because we didn\u2019t have the laws in place, or the police protocols in place, to keep her safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EMost importantly, there have been tireless advocates who have fought for this bill, and there is nobody who has been more vocal in getting us here today than the incredible, formidable, compassionate, amazing person that is Leonie Morris. She has met with all of us in this room; she\u2019s met with every party; she has, more importantly, met with countless survivors and made sure that their voices have the driving force. And she\u2019s done this for a really long time. Leonie\u2014I know you\u2019re watching at home\u2014this is the fruit of your labour. What a legacy to be proud of and to share with people for generations to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge a few other people who have been instrumental in getting this law, including Awatea Mita, who led the campaign for Auckland Women\u2019s Centre; also, of course, our very own Jan Logie, whose work in the sexual violence space has set the groundwork for laws like this to come into place; obviously Ginny Andersen, who was a massive part of this bill\u2019s inception; every other woman who has fought tirelessly for this bill; and, of course, allies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EThis bill is unique because it acknowledges the impact of psychological harm. It\u2019s also unique because of a point that Awatea Mita, who was an advocate for this bill, continued to lament throughout submissions on this bill, and that is that this bill establishes and recognises patterns and context. If you look at \u201Cspecified act\u201D, some of these things might not seem obvious as crimes; you know, things that could come across as innocent, or acts that could come across as innocent, if you were looking at them objectively without context. Things such as sending a message or dropping a letter in someone\u2019s mailbox; these things might seem relatively innocent. However, this bill acknowledges that when you have a pattern of behaviour is when the psychological harm can come about, and it acknowledges the context in which these behaviours happen. Those are two things\u2014pattern and context\u2014that weren\u2019t formally recognised within our laws.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EI really want to acknowledge positive changes that have been made throughout the Justice Committee process, and following that. I think that this bill represents the best of our democracy. It\u2019s an example where submitters were heard, and their changes\u2014which were pretty substantial changes\u2014have been incorporated. Thanks to those submitters, and thanks to the willingness of collaboration from the Government and from all parties, we\u2019ve managed to get the threshold of specified acts down from three acts to two acts; we\u2019ve managed to get the timeline expanded from 12 months to two years. We also tried new techniques of collecting submissions for this; Ginny and I proposed that we use social media as a way to elicit submissions for this bill. We also have been, through the select committee process, pioneering the use of anonymous submissions, which I think is something we need to do more when it comes to sensitive matters around family and sexual violence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EAs we just did in the committee of the whole House, we accepted the amendment around police notification, which I\u2019m so happy about. In June, it was pointed out that there was a gap in this legislation, which meant that when police serve that initial notification to the perpetrator, they did not have to consult, inform, or gain consent from the victim. We were really concerned about this, and here\u2019s a quote from Leonie Morris: \u201COne thing that we\u2019re very concerned about is that at the moment police can notify a stalker that he has been stalking and that he\u2019ll be breaking the law if he does it again. We\u2019re happy with that, but we don\u2019t want police to do that until they\u2019ve notified the victim that that\u2019s what they\u2019re going to do and they\u2019ve talked through with the victim a safety plan\u2014because otherwise if just out of the blue he is told that she\u2019s gone to the police and the police are now saying to him, \u201CYou need to be much more careful with your behaviour,\u2019 he could retaliate against her.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EWe worked through different iterations of this amendment to make sure it was one that everyone was happy with. We went from requiring written consent, which was just going to be too hard, was going to be too difficult, and not necessarily victim focused\u2014so we moved from that to \u201Cconsult\u201D, and then we were informed by Government advisers that \u201Cinform\u201D is the best language for that; another example of collaboration, democracy, and what committee of the whole House should be for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve only got a minute left, and it\u2019s so hard to wrap up the last year working on this bill in a minute. But there\u2019s still work to do. I think the online space, where a lot of stalking and harassment takes place, is an area that we really have to cast our minds to. I know there are some bills that will be coming through the House that address some forms of this around deepfakes, and we look forward to supporting that. But there\u2019s still massive gaps in the way that people can use social media and online websites to stalk and harass other people, so we need to address this. We need police to get this right, and that is why we put our amendment forward. We need more funding for things like the Fixated Threat Assessment Centre, who deal with people who have got the psychological illness of obsession with people and abusing them through their obsession.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EThank you, Mr Speaker, thank you to everyone in the House today; we can be really proud of ourselves when we go home tonight. To all of the survivors, we hear you, and we\u2019re here because of you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223590b041308241868a09b9ec8fda5803\u0022 data-id=\u0022fce17f0bcdb543d5ac48a441e681781b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223590b041308241868a09b9ec8fda5803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fce17f0bcdb543d5ac48a441e681781b\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for the Prevention of Family and Sexual Violence):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise in strong support of the Crimes Legislation (Stalking and Harassment) Amendment Bill. I agree with the previous speaker, Tamatha Paul. There are moments in time that we will look back at and see this as a massive win for victims of a pretty horrible crime that has been ignored for far too long. For years, stalking has fallen through the cracks in our laws. For me, this is rather personal, and I\u2019ve spoken about this before, but I don\u2019t think it can be said too many times. The effects that this has on not just the person who\u2019s been harassed and stalked but on their family, their children, and their wider network, who are constantly worried about their loved one and whether their loved one is going to be safe that day; whether their loved one got home safe; whether their loved one is at home, scared and crying and worried about what\u2019s going to happen to them that night. It changes a person. It takes away their life force. It takes away everything within themselves that sees the world as a good place, and often the light disappears from that person. I don\u2019t think, until you see the extreme end of what harassment and stalking can do, you can fully comprehend the damage it does to a person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223590b041308241868a09b9ec8fda5803\u0022\u003EI myself have witnessed this where I have seen a person who I really care about not be able to put a sentence together, because their brain had shut down through years of fear\u2014to the point where their brain could no longer put a sentence together, they couldn\u2019t say their name, and they could not look after themselves. This is not a crime that should be taken lightly, and I am grateful for these changes because now it won\u2019t be. It will be seen for what it is. It is destructive, and it needs to stop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223590b041308241868a09b9ec8fda5803\u0022\u003EThis is a crime that is not just about a single moment in time. Instead, it becomes a lived experience. It changes how people walk to their car, it changes where they shop, it changes how they\u2019ll organise their day, and it also changes the way they think when they go to bed at night. It changes the amount of times that they check the locks on the doors and make sure that the windows are closed through fear of somebody entering and harming them. It changes the way family members look when they are visiting the person who is going through this. It changes how everybody behaves in their everyday lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223590b041308241868a09b9ec8fda5803\u0022\u003EThis is something that has been very close to my heart in making sure that this is done right. This is what fixing matters truly looks like when it comes to law in this place. We often talk very technical; we often talk about crime with statistics and numbers, but we often forget that there are names, faces, and families behind the statistics that we\u2019re speaking to. I feel really privileged to stand here today and know that women and men will get justice when it comes to this horrific crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223590b041308241868a09b9ec8fda5803\u0022\u003EI listened to some of the stories across the time that this has come through the House, and I heard some of the stories that were brought to select committee. Those stories were gut-wrenching and heartbreaking and sadly showed that this happens far too often. They\u2019re everyday New Zealanders who have lived through months and years of suffering only to be ignored or brushed aside, and that\u2019s not OK. Victims have often been told that the creepy, obsessive behaviour that they face didn\u2019t meet the threshold of the offence. What this could mean in practice is that you may have had an order that that person cannot come on to your property, but that didn\u2019t mean that they couldn\u2019t stand at the top of your driveway and stare down the top of your driveway to let you know they\u2019re there. But they weren\u2019t breaching any rules. It was intimidating, it was scary, but there\u2019s nothing that you can do about it. You can ring and ask for help, but on the other end of the phone, you are told that they are actually not breaking any laws, and unless they step on to your property, they are not breaking the rules back under the old law. Under the new law, they will be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223590b041308241868a09b9ec8fda5803\u0022\u003EThe new charges under this bill will, hopefully, mean that women and men will feel like they can share the problems they are facing. It\u2019ll bring some sunlight to this issue, take the shame away, and allow people to actually have a really open conversation about what this looks like. Hopefully, it will deal with other issues that come alongside harassment and stalking, where isolation, fear of leaving the home, and fear for your children will also be helped under this new legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223590b041308241868a09b9ec8fda5803\u0022\u003ELast off, I would just really like to thank the brave people who came forward, shared their stories, were involved in the process of the select committee, and helped to shape this law to be better and to make sure that it really did make a difference. Without those voices, we may not necessarily have a bill as good as it is right now. Again, I think this is an excellent piece of work. When we come into this place, as a member of Parliament, I often used to think: how can I help everyday people to make their lives better? I would say that this bill, in particular, is one I will be proud of for a very long time. I hope that I have made the person that I spoke about today, and who went through this, proud, too, so that what they went through wasn\u2019t for nothing and so that their story that they shared with me and the journey I went through with them has also made a difference in this country for the betterment of all the victims of this crime. Thank you, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4fd93908145487cb5f29cd9c813de23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4fd93908145487cb5f29cd9c813de23\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to speak in support of the Crimes Legislation (Stalking and Harassment) Amendment Bill. There has been much said in this House already around the importance of this legislation. One of the things that I know and appreciate strongly about victims and the reality that they face is that the ability to be heard and seen and understood is a big part of a healing process. I think what was achieved through both the bringing forward of this legislation and the select committee process was providing an opportunity for those who have been so badly affected to be seen, heard, and understood.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022\u003EThe specified acts defined in this legislation have been worked on to develop a robust piece of legislation that ensures that it\u2019s not just recognising what the acts are but how they can be done and through a third party to ensure we capture all of the components. This is an important piece of legislation, and I would applaud the Justice Committee on how well they work together to ensure that this is the best piece of legislation it can be. I can appreciate it would have been challenging and difficult to hear a lot of the submissions, but at the end of the day, we have reached a piece of legislation that is effective, it is timely, it is important, and it shows that when the Government and this House come together, we can achieve some very positive outcomes. On that basis, I have no hesitation in commending this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f6ec5f31ce54dd4bd54b141faf39a88\u0022 data-id=\u002208a818b4943e444a8ce53f44b10012b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f6ec5f31ce54dd4bd54b141faf39a88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208a818b4943e444a8ce53f44b10012b8\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of Te R\u014Dp\u016B K\u0101k\u0101riki, with sincere gratitude in my heart, to tautoko the speeches tonight. I reflect particularly on our Minister Chhour\u2019s k\u014Drero tonight because, as wahine, you can affiliate with what has been shared, particularly the intergenerational ripples of the impact of stalking and harassment, not just on the mother but also on the children and mokopuna. I agree that there is a change\u2014a change in the family, a change in the way in which they behave\u2014and there are the constant stress levels that ripple through a home and through the lives of loved ones. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f6ec5f31ce54dd4bd54b141faf39a88\u0022\u003EAs I listened to the speeches tonight, I reflected on the stories of our w\u0101hine who have endured many years of this type of violence, where they were never taken seriously and they were muzzled or muted in the way in which they could go to the authorities and seek help because there was just not enough evidence for it to be taken seriously at the time. Providing these levers legislatively now unlocks an opportunity for us to put some boundaries in place as w\u0101hine in relationships but also for children to hold parents to account, as well. We can now see that a door is open for conversations for wh\u0101nau to provide safeguards for their loved ones. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f6ec5f31ce54dd4bd54b141faf39a88\u0022\u003EI just want to refer to the amendment that was agreed to tonight. It also ensures that the victim is at the centre of decision making, and when the police do make approaches to the offenders or to those who are suspects, yes, notify them that \u201CWe know, and we are watching.\u201D But the victim, ultimately, needs to know what is happening around them and about the incidents that are being followed up on, because follow-up is so important, but we also need to protect the voice and the safety of the wh\u0101nau of the victim as the police go about their work. So the agreement made tonight by the Minister of Justice and by members of this House is not something to be ignored, because we\u2019re trying to provide a suite of tools so that the authorities\u2014those who are tasked with implementing this legislation but also all the support networks that try and wrap around the family as they grapple with these challenges\u2014have a decent set of tools whereby they can start dealing with this type of behaviour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f6ec5f31ce54dd4bd54b141faf39a88\u0022\u003EI do want to also bring to the House the consideration around treatment, around rehabilitation, and around support for the victim but also for the offender. What is the pathway to support all of those impacted by this? I\u2019m not sure that this legislation provides room for it, but maybe it\u2019s an \u201Cand, and\u201D so that we start looking at that side of the continuum too, because at some stage the offender will come out and they will need to be supported to be a good parent, a good spouse, and a good wh\u0101nau member in the future. But the victim, the wh\u0101nau, the children, and the mokopuna also need to have the relevant safeguards in place so that the behaviours and the experiences that they have seen, shared, listened to, and witnessed are coped with, but they are also supported so that they have the ability to not take on some of those behaviours that they may have fallen victim to over time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f6ec5f31ce54dd4bd54b141faf39a88\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re paying tribute to the victims and wh\u0101nau, and the victims who were strong and who came forward in the Justice Committee to be the voice of those who are the voiceless, as it is a silent issue within wh\u0101nau and communities. This is a silent issue. It is spoken about quietly amongst friends and amongst wh\u0101nau. Shame still exists within this space, but with the way that this House has united, in a sense, tonight, it lets us know that we can do these things together, and this is providing safeguards, not only for the victims of today but for our mokopuna and those to come in the future. Kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce56265c519d48eead14efd6efd31d11\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce56265c519d48eead14efd6efd31d11\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, thank you for the privilege of being able to speak in the third reading on this bill as we pass it this evening, in this House. During the process of guiding the legislation through the Justice Committee and through the House I had the opportunity to meet with a group of women in my electorate who advocated for a change to the number of specified acts and the period of which those acts covered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022\u003EI just want to thank the coalition partners I worked with in ACT and New Zealand First as we worked out how we would respond and ultimately land on the amendment that was made to the piece of legislation that has been passed this evening. Therefore, I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u002292f324fef65d48e09a7abb71b39e3a24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292f324fef65d48e09a7abb71b39e3a24\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It has been quite gratifying to listen to the speeches from around the House as we come together, for a change, on this Crimes Legislation (Stalking and Harassment) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EAs many people have said, the credit does go largely to the women who have advocated for this change for a long time, and their persistence; persistence, above and beyond. It crosses the line sometimes, but at the end of the day, it brings results, and that\u2019s what\u2019s happened. Even when the bill was introduced, they didn\u2019t see their job as done. They continued to advocate for what they saw as the best outcome. I know that, even now, they\u2019ll see what we\u2019ve done today and they will think that we haven\u2019t done everything we should have, but that\u2019s what this place is. I do think we\u2019ve landed in a pretty good place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EI do want to recognise Ginny Andersen, who spoke earlier, who\u2019s been working very hard. She did have a member\u2019s bill on exactly this topic. I want to put it on the record that, but for that, I don\u2019t think the Government would have been spurred into action. The Government was spurred into action, and good on Paul Goldsmith, as the Minister of Justice, for doing that. It was also good to see him here looking genuinely at the Amendment Papers that are on the Table and adopting one of those which he was of the view was good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EIn the Justice Committee, we did hear a lot of personal stories that talked about the very significant impact that stalking behaviour can have, and we\u2019ve heard others in this House do that as well. I don\u2019t want to dwell on that, but I do want to just put on the record some observations about this new offence. It is an offence, and the reason it\u2019s a challenging offence in some ways\u2014unlike the kinds of crimes that we think of\u2014is that it\u2019s not a crime of physical violence; it\u2019s a crime of mental intimidation, if you like. Where the harm occurs is, in fact, inside someone\u2019s head, and as the Minister Karen Chhour said, that harm is still real and can have very significant impacts but it\u2019s not visible and it\u2019s hard, from the outside, to understand that. That\u2019s the first thing; we\u2019ve got to have that effect: that someone does feel intimidated. Then the other thing, the critical second aspect of this offence, happens in someone else\u2019s head\u2014in the perpetrator\u2019s head\u2014because they have to know that their behaviour is likely to cause this effect: \u201Cto cause fear or distress\u201D, in the words of the legislation. That\u2019s a challenging area for the law to seek to intervene in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003ENow, there are tools to assist with that. There\u2019s a list of kinds of behaviour, almost presumptively specified acts, such as the traditional ones that come to mind: watching, following, loitering\u2014that\u2019s the kind of visual image we have of stalking\u2014but also acting in any other way that would cause fear or distress to a reasonable person. Here\u2019s the interesting thing: it is essentially recognising cyberstalking. A specified act might be done by or through any means whatsoever\u2014for example, tracking devices, digital applications, spyware, drones, or the use of artificial intelligence. This offence which we have created is not just that offence of visiting someone\u2019s workplace or following them home, or whatever it might be; it\u2019s a whole plethora of possible activities, and I think it\u2019s really important that we understand that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EOf course, I think the other thing to recognise is that whilst some people who engage in stalking behaviour know exactly what they\u2019re doing, one of the other challenges that we recognised in select committee, and the Police recognised, was that there\u2019s a large portion of people who aren\u2019t quite wired the same way as a normal person. They don\u2019t understand that, when they are rebuffed, to send someone flowers at their workplace is creepy and disturbing and distressing to them. That\u2019s why the ability of a constable to notify a person\u2014essentially, to sit someone down and say, \u201CHey, what you\u2019re doing is creepy. It\u2019s stalking behaviour. It\u2019s really causing distress to the other person. You\u2019ve got to stop.\u201D Of course, now they can go to that next step and say, \u201CLook, if you do it again, you\u2019ll be committing an offence.\u201D That\u2019s why we needed that extra measure to allow constables to, essentially, put someone on notice. Tamatha Paul\u2019s amendment, which I referred to earlier, is a good one, because it does make sure that, in doing that, the victim of the behaviour is aware of what\u2019s going on and can participate in that decision-making process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EHaving said that, the warning isn\u2019t a necessary part of it, and, of course, the other thing that really cropped up that we struggled with and made some changes to is the number of incidents and the span of time needed. There\u2019s no perfect solution here. The danger that was identified was that if you have a strict limited period\u2014two stalking behaviours in two years\u2014you\u2019ll get two stalking behaviours in two years and one day, and by dint of that day, which does seem arbitrary, the offence isn\u2019t committed. I think, in having a limited period, we\u2019ve probably landed at a reasonable position. The two incidents: again, you could say, \u201CWhy do you have to have more than one?\u201D, or \u201CShould it be three?\u201D Again, I don\u2019t think that there\u2019s a perfect solution there, but we\u2019ve probably landed at the right place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EI guess what I\u2019m saying is that this is a good addition to our criminal law, but at the same time it\u2019s not a straightforward piece of legislation. I\u2019m sure that operationally\u2014and I think this will be the actual challenge, more than legally, operationally\u2014the police will need some time to work through exactly how it can assist them in both keeping people safe and also keeping people feeling safe, which is, in many ways, what stalking is about. Of course, stalking can lead to genuine violence, but in many cases it\u2019s just, essentially, harassment and intimidation, which equally people\u2014especially women\u2014deserve to be protected from. As I said before, it\u2019s going to be a challenge. The legal questions will roll out, and I think the mental element\u2014what it means for someone to know that it\u2019s likely to cause fear or distress\u2014will need development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EMy sense is that sometimes it\u2019s so blindingly obvious that what you\u2019re doing\u2014following someone, following an ex-partner home at night\u2014is going to cause fear and distress that saying, \u201COh, I thought she wouldn\u2019t mind.\u201D is not going to hold any water. There will be other cases where it\u2019s perhaps not quite so clear cut, but it\u2019s good legislation. Again, to those people who have for a long time advocated for this to become part of our law\u2014to go alongside harmful digital communications, the harassment Act, and our other family protection legislation\u2014I think, well done. I do think there\u2019s space to get a more uniform approach, because it\u2019s very patchwork, and there\u2019s always a danger, when you\u2019ve got a patchwork, that something falls between the cracks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EThis is a good legislation, and once again, congratulations to Ginny Andersen for the work that she\u2019s done, and also the select committee. It gets a bit feisty from time to time, but we actually did knuckle down on this one, and whilst we had good discussions, we worked cooperatively. I think, at the end of the day, we\u2019ve got a pretty good outcome for everyone, most importantly a good outcome for women, predominantly, who will feel safer and be safer as a result of the work that we\u2019re doing tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022 data-id=\u00224372aff2ddf5481c987ce93060e4daab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224372aff2ddf5481c987ce93060e4daab\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. The only shame about passing the legislation right now is that it is 10.40 p.m. on a Wednesday night, and ensuring that people have an understanding that this legislation is being passed\u2014it\u2019s coming into force next year; and it\u2019s got the support of every political party in this place\u2014it says we take it seriously, particularly for women across New Zealand. They are not the only victims of stalking, but they are predominantly most of the victims of stalking across New Zealand. To say we\u2019re doing something about it; it\u2019s not about a particular political party taking a win, but it\u2019s actually about this Parliament saying that we\u2019ve listened to the victims across New Zealand who came and spoke to the legislation, who\u2019ve numerously shared their stories with many, many members of Parliament. Finally, Parliament has come together and said we\u2019re going to do something about it. It is a really good day; therefore, I\u2019m going to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022 data-id=\u00228c4dc83b5d8147ad88efad76ab80029e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c4dc83b5d8147ad88efad76ab80029e\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I wanted to start by acknowledging that this week is a week that we remember how violent New Zealand society can be, and that children have paid the price this week for violence being not addressed in our communities. I wanted to make a case for the correlation of things like stalking with that violence. Sometimes I think it gets a little bit lost; it\u2019s seen as something lighter. In fact, it\u2019s a precursor. The people who end up in women\u2019s refuges, I think 75 percent of them are recorded as having been stalked before they left the relationship, and 65 percent afterwards. I suspect, actually, that is an underrepresentation of the number, because there are also, now, new methods of stalking people, and there is an incredible use of things like spyware. It is quite shocking. These kinds of things just weren\u2019t available before, and we have a culture which has changed in some ways so that children are being taught that it\u2019s OK that their parents know where they are all the time, etc., and it\u2019s one of the issues that\u2019s raised: that we\u2019re actually changing our norms and values in our society so that we think that knowing where somebody is all the time is our right. It is a method of control and it is an addiction to control.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EWe also have a wave of misogyny out there; an absolute wave coming to our shores. It is everywhere on social media. It is a violent space on the internet, and people are learning new violent behaviours and thinking that they are acceptable. So it is an important time for a piece of legislation like this, and it\u2019s important not to see it as a lighter form of issue but see it as a precursor and a form of violence, because that\u2019s what it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s important, I think, that this legislation recognises how important fear is in people\u2019s lives. We all have a right to feel safe, and being afraid erodes our actual sense of being. We\u2019ve had some of the other speakers tonight talk about how they\u2019ve seen that happen, but I think it\u2019s just really important that we acknowledge that that form of safety, that is the right of every woman in this country. It is under attack; they are under attack. We have to get to the root of that and say it is completely unacceptable. We are seeing it in leaders in other countries, we are seeing it out there being seen as an OK thing to do, and it is never going to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EI wanted to say that and I wanted then to just talk about the collegiality of this House on this issue, because I think that\u2019s a wonderful thing. That\u2019s not something that we see a lot of; it\u2019s really great that it\u2019s happened over a bill like this. Thank you to Ginny Andersen, who was the person who started this process. Thank you to the activists who were involved in bringing this issue relentlessly to every party in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EBut I just want to say that it\u2019s actually significant that it\u2019s over an issue like this; that this is something that is moving beyond any issue that is party political, in some ways. But it needs to be recognised that we face a crisis. We are seeing more of this violent behaviour, and we\u2019re seeing a normalisation of it. So this is a kickback against that. This says, \u201CActually, those behaviours are controlling, manipulative, violent, and totally inappropriate in New Zealand society.\u201D, and so I am extremely pleased and relieved to see this House on the same page with regard to this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EThank you for passing this bill tonight\u2014the entire House. Thank you to Ginny Andersen for bringing it here. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eae59f3e82d4436096e2ee11043f94d6\u0022 data-id=\u00225bbfa04829e649a6aaf2179fc58fb755\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eae59f3e82d4436096e2ee11043f94d6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225bbfa04829e649a6aaf2179fc58fb755\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA (National\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a privilege to be able to stand and speak to the Crimes Legislation (Stalking and Harassment) Amendment Bill on its third reading. Stalking can be randomly triggered and escalate quickly to dangerous levels. This bill seeks to clearly define the elements of stalking and harassment. By doing so, it also recognises the vulnerability of victims and the real harm and risk they face. The bill will also enable timely and effective interventions and prosecution of offenders. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022 data-id=\u00220eb46930f67f48a9b850ad50a71e898a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220eb46930f67f48a9b850ad50a71e898a\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019d like to start by acknowledging the advocates and stakeholders and family members who will be watching tonight, after having advocated for this law change for years. To Ginny Andersen, who championed this issue so early, but also to the House, just reflecting on the comments made across the House, it\u2019s clear that members all across the House recognise how important this is. I was thinking of the comments made by Minister Chhour about the all-encompassing impact that stalking can have on people\u2019s lives and the importance of this change we\u2019re making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThe Hon Ginny Andersen talked about being the Minister of Police and receiving the Independent Police Conduct Authority report when Farzana Yaqubi had passed and there was the inquiry into it. At the time it happened, I was the member of Parliament for Upper Harbour, and I still remember getting the call about that happening and how extraordinarily traumatic it was for Farzana\u2019s family. Ibrahim Omer and I went to visit her family the following day, and the grief that they were steeped in was just incredible. I remember speaking to Farzana\u2019s sister, and we talked a little about what had happened but also the criminal prosecution that would follow. She continued to say, \u201CBut it won\u2019t bring her back\u2014it won\u2019t bring her back.\u201D This won\u2019t bring her back either, and I\u2019m very, very acutely aware of that, but I do hope, as the Hon Ginny Andersen said, that it will do some justice to her memory in terms of what it will prevent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EFarzana\u2019s funeral we also attended several days later, and the impact on her community more broadly was also extraordinary. She was a law student at Auckland University of Technology, very well respected. We spoke to some of her friends as well as her family, but it was just a huge number of people feeling that grief. Comments have been made about the ripple effects when things like this happen, but also those early stages of stalking and how much they impact families. That was certainly the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI think what\u2019s striking about her case, though, is that as others have said, she did everything right. She did report it, and I wanted to walk through some of the timeline of her reporting to demonstrate that, because I do think it\u2019s absolutely appalling. She made her first complaint on 25 October 2022. She made a 105 online report to the police. She took screenshots of the messages that she was being sent; she sent them through. On 3\u00A0December, she updated her online report. She told police that she was extremely fearful for her life. On 6 December, she made a formal statement in person at the Henderson station and she was told the file would be moved on, and just a number of days later, on 19 December, she was murdered. So, yes, it is important that we change the law, but it\u2019s also important that we change the way we listen when complaints are made, and that is in many ways a bigger problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003ESome of the submitters who wrote to select committee made submissions in that regard, and as I was reading some of their submissions it occurred to me how the submissions that related directly to proposed legal changes instantly got recognition but some of those equally important other changes they were arguing for didn\u2019t. One such submitter was the Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists\u2019 submissions. They argued against some specific parts of the bill as it was then, including the link to three separate occasions within a period of 12 months; they argued it should be broader. They then made a whole set of recommendations about policy, behavioural change, including developing sector guidance and educational resources for police, justice, and mental health services to ensure front-line staff recognise stalking behaviour and respond appropriately. They made a recommendation about developing a specific support framework for victims of stalking to ensure appropriate psychosocial support is available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThis is also something that Kim McGregor has spoken about in the past, our former Chief Victims Advisor, and Ruth Money has spoken about as our current Chief Victims Advisor; that need for more comprehensive support for victims. They both speak about a victims\u2019 commission and actually having an advocate who\u2019s funded well enough in the system to be your advocate at those very early stages of a complaint. While we do have places like Community Law, and certainly you can access lawyers, often that happens after the fact, and I do think there is real merit in us looking at some sort of framework like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EWe also had submissions from others like WAVES, the Waitakere Anti-Violence Essential Services. One of the points that they made which I think is absolutely valid is that, while the bill as it is now is excellent, we need to consider how people can be manipulated through a broader set of relationships. Their argument was that the definition of \u201Cfamily relationship\u201D as is outlined in the Family Violence Act 2018 is too narrow and you need to look at the other relationships that can be used to really target someone. I think this is, interestingly, also relevant in a political context where many of us have electorate office staff who are very regularly dealing with people who do frequent the office because they\u2019re frustrated about certain issues, etc. I do think that\u2019s one area where we will need to monitor whether the bill is as effective as it can be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003ESeveral people have spoken about how broad the Acts are that could fall within the framing of this new offence, that it isn\u2019t existing criminal offences; it is about looking at the context, and that is hugely important. Something that came up several times was the idea of gifting and whether it was problematic to include gifting as one of the potential Acts, but in fact this is something that frequently does happen when you get an obsessive relationship, particularly where you have a relationship breakup that then results in stalking behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThere were some interesting studies done, one of which was quoted in the regulatory impact statement (RIS) and it gave us a table of victims of intimate partner stalking and the types of behaviour that those people were engaged in. It was things like sending dozens of text messages, sitting outside their school or home or work, phoning them often, asking friends to follow them. Often dropping off gifts and notes was almost 60 percent, so a really significant thing in terms of what can seem innocuous subjectively but really does have an impact on people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThe other thing that stood out to me in the RIS when I read it was the table that showed the difference between stalking behaviour of members of Parliament between 2014 and 2022. On every measure except for alarming behaviour at an electorate office, the percentages in terms of how that had been experienced have gone up\u2014some quite considerably so\u2014including inappropriate social media contact. This is absolutely a live issue. Changing the law is important; changing behaviours must also follow, so we do need, as a Parliament but as Governments\u2014regardless of which Government is in place\u2014to put in place education and other policy measures to ensure that there\u2019s a culture shift.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI\u2019d finish just by recognising the folk who came in for the glass prison exhibition here this week from Massey University, talking to people about their experiences of harassment and stalking. These were alarming quotes to read. We do need more of this research. Unfortunately, that might not be the case for them, but, again, this is an important piece of legislation. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc18fca1517544d48a85a448eabd4308\u0022 data-id=\u002224b4a6e7548d45cba185089037e7464e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc18fca1517544d48a85a448eabd4308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224b4a6e7548d45cba185089037e7464e\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a little bit difficult to articulate the feelings that a lot of us are feeling tonight as we progress with this bill. It is, in a matter of minutes, going to become a law. I remember during the campaign, in 2023, seeing the now Minister Paul Goldsmith on the news announce that we will be implementing a law which makes stalking illegal, makes it a new offence, and I reflect on that as I reflect on how with the conversations we had and we\u2019re lucky to have with our Ministers, as the Coalition for the Safety of Women and Children were approaching the steps of Parliament, he made the decision that, yes, we are definitely going to do this as a matter of urgency. I\u2019m so grateful to the Minister\u2014and Ministers Upston and Mitchell as well\u2014for the conversation to progress this. I\u2019m grateful for everyone that\u2019s participated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc18fca1517544d48a85a448eabd4308\u0022\u003EI want to say that whenever I look at a picture of Farzana Yaqubi, my heart weeps. It weeps. It weeps for the life lost; it weeps for her mother and her father. What I\u2019ve learnt is that for a mother and a father, the worst nightmare is to lose a child. But through the loss of this beautiful girl, we can say, really, it was the catalyst for us to move fast with this bill. So I\u2019m thinking of her parents today. I\u2019m thinking of the loss of life. I\u2019m thinking also of David White, who gave a submission because he also lost a daughter, and he said that stalking is a psychological weapon, wielded with purpose by the perpetrator. It is a mind game that can reduce a victim to fear and tears in a crowd when the perpetrator is seen, and so I\u2019m really proud of what we\u2019re doing here tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc18fca1517544d48a85a448eabd4308\u0022\u003ENothing will take away the pain that every parent has endured when their child is lost because of crimes like this, but I\u2019m glad that we\u2019re commending this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022 data-id=\u0022a62060086f6642b18dae95d8e987fe58\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a62060086f6642b18dae95d8e987fe58\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E I guess I will start, Tom, by saying I will say good things because this is a good night to say good things. The good of it is that there is a combined thinking and feeling and heart for this particular piece of legislation. So I tautoko m\u0101rika i te whakaaro, ng\u0101 k\u014Drero katoa [I absolutely support the idea, all of the comments.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003EThis bill won\u2019t bring back those that we\u2019ve lost, but going forward, what it will do is it will continue to remind us and have the lives that have been lost matter. I recognise the number of stories that have been shared tonight. I think, sometimes, we might get a bit like, \u201CIt\u2019s another story, and people say certain names often.\u201D, but what is critical about it is telling the story, lest we forget. I want to acknowledge all the women that have stood in the House tonight to say the names, to repeat those stories, and to keep the reality of these things front of mind. So e mihi atu ana ki ng\u0101 w\u0101hine katoa i te Whare [I\u00A0acknowledge all the women in the House.]  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003EThen, probably, I might say that I want to acknowledge the men in the House tonight and just acknowledge t\u0101ne m\u0101. Keep speaking up. Please, keep speaking up, speaking into the circles\u2014the men circles, the male circles, and the t\u0101ne circles\u2014because I think that\u2019s a critical space where only men can influence men in your own way. I just want to acknowledge that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003EThis is the final stage of this bill, and it is a pleasure and a duty to stand and speak to it. This bill tackles one of the most insidious forms of violence: stalking and harassment. This is merely not just theory; this is about real lives and real harm. It is about accumulated harm. It is about accrued harm. It is important that, tonight, this is settled. It seems to me that it is recognised well across the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge Tamatha Paul and her k\u014Drero tonight. She started by saying she thought it was going to be quite emotional for her, but she held the line in telling the story, I think, in a very powerful and young wahine way. Again, I think it\u2019s important to acknowledge Ginny Andersen for her efforts through her own member\u2019s bill. Persistence is omnipotent\u2014particularly for women with this kind of issue\u2014because too often, I\u2019m sure everyone would agree, when women speak out against things like this, we can often be, for some crazy reason, called crazy or neurotic. Unfortunately, those things, those attitudes, are pervasive, and it\u2019s hard to get rid of those things. Again, I just acknowledge all the good men in this room for working hard to get rid of those attitudes that need to change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003EI\u2019m probably there, now, in just saying that I support this bill. A lot of it, I guess, for me, comes from working in family harm and the family harm and family justice sector for some years before coming into this role and then also working in rape crisis when I was 17 or 18. I understand the enduring journey that is carried, in the harm that is carried by women and their families. I just acknowledge the work to get the bill to this point. Tom, I hope those were good things. To all the men and the women in this House tonight, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. Tautoko m\u0101rika [absolutely in support].  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229ab56f71e4f249869bc921c2ac63d9de\u0022\u003ELand Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022341f0d4a7e004463b9c8067e70097549\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022 data-id=\u0022725df74fec17469cab26b92e7c1c57ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022725df74fec17469cab26b92e7c1c57ef\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill (No 2).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227bcec1f89f2480cba62bcfce03aa622\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: That statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256d67e19c99f4b05b5187a9bb0158627\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003EThe Government wants the clean vehicle standard to lower the cost of living, not raise it. This bill makes it cheaper and easier for vehicle importers to meet the clean vehicle standards so New Zealanders can benefit. I think members know that the standard is about fuel efficiency. It does help lower the cost of living by making it easier to buy cars that use less fuel and cost less to run, and the standard also contributes to our emissions reduction targets\u2014but the standard is having the opposite effect at the moment. It\u2019s actually making it harder and more expensive for people to upgrade to better vehicles. There are four changes in this bill as reported back. The Government intends to move an Amendment Paper, which I think has been well signalled, and we will do that in the committee of the whole House stage. My understanding is that that Amendment Paper has been tabled for members to have a look at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003EReturning to the four changes: the bill lets the Minister of Transport recommend uniform carbon dioxide targets for vehicles. This will be quite important, actually, when weight-adjusted targets, which currently give heavier vehicles easier targets, are no longer fair or justified as more low-emissions vehicle options become available. The second change is to extend the life of emissions credits from three years to four to give importers more time to use the credits they earn from exceeding targets. This is about rewarding good performance and keeping costs down. The third change is that it keeps the option for importers to borrow credits from future years, so if they fall short one year, they can make up for it in the next year. It\u2019s a common-sense way to avoid charges that would otherwise be passed on to consumers. It allows credit trading between new- and used-vehicle importers. Currently, new-vehicle importers can only trade credits with other new-vehicle importers, and used-vehicle importers can only trade with used-vehicle importers. This change will give importers of both types greater options to offset chargers. Ultimately, it will make it easier for them to meet the standard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003EThe bill is a short bill. I want to thank everyone who took the time to share their views during the select committee stage. I also want to acknowledge the work of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee. The committee, as I understand it, received 25 submissions\u2014not a large number\u2014but the range of views was wide, and the depths of insights were valuable. It is fair to say that this bill and the changes that that Government intends to move during the committee of the whole House stage reflect the submissions that industry have made to the Government and the select committee around meeting the clean vehicle standard. With that in mind, I want to acknowledge the input of the Motor Industry Association and the Imported Motor Vehicle Industry Association. The feedback has made it clear that there are changes required to the standard if it is going to work and lower the cost of living for New Zealanders and, ultimately, green our fleet over time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003EThe Government intends to conduct a full review of the standard in the first six months of next year. We\u2019ve now had two goes as a Parliament at getting in place a workable standard; the 2023 regime, which I think everyone acknowledges was deficient, and the changes made last year, in 2024, to bring the scheme in line with Australia. That also has not worked. We do need to kind of go back to almost basics and first principles and work out exactly what we are going to do in terms of making the scheme work. Anyway, that\u2019s all for another day. In the meantime, this bill provides sensible, useful changes, and, of course, we\u2019ve got an amendment coming to lower the carbon dioxide amounts that are charged, which will come at the committee of the whole House stage. That Amendment Paper is on the floor of the House for members to have a look at. I commend the bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc65641d4ab247c2a2a28608e32f56a6\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022 data-id=\u0022670fa371a2f74951baab3a13348914cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022670fa371a2f74951baab3a13348914cf\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Madam Speaker. Look, the Labour Party will not be supporting this bill this evening. That shouldn\u2019t come as any surprise to members opposite, given our different view has been published in the select committee\u2019s report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll come to the specifics as to why, at this stage, we are not prepared to support this bill, but before I do that, I do want to just make some comments on the select committee process that was undertaken. Much has always been referred to the fact that the Transport and Infrastructure Committee is a hard-working committee, and I do want to acknowledge the submitters that did take time to engage with the committee. The Minister\u2019s correct: there weren\u2019t many\u201425\u2014and we heard from a handful of those. I also want to acknowledge the officials who advised and supported the committee through its work, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s really interesting that this bill has been reported back quite early in the piece. It was meant to be no later than 22 December, and there were steps taken to expedite things\u2014and, of course, it\u2019s just about 11.10 p.m. on a Wednesday evening while the House is in urgency because, really, the Government is up against the clock in terms of trying to appease some of the concerns that have been raised directly with them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EI do have a question for the Minister\u2014that\u2019ll be in committee\u2014but I am signalling the regulatory impact statement that has been tabled, whether it\u2019s relevant in terms of this bill or not, because it seems to reference all of the previous pieces of work that was done with, I guess, bill No. 1. So just signalling that for the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EBut we are not supporting this bill, because it is yet another example of this Government who are stepping back from leadership in the climate space, who are watering down policies that have a real impact on our environment, our economy, and our communities. Let\u2019s be very clear: the reason that the Government are pursuing this is because they made a decision to take some action in cancelling a Clean Car Discount opportunity alongside the Clean Car Standard, and they have failed to do anything since they took that course of action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EThat is the real reason why we are here under urgency progressing this: because the Government have been lobbied by industry participants and they simply have failed to actually do what was expected of them. That is exactly what the committee did hear from industry players and participants: that the Government have basically made an absolute shambles over this. These were the very issues that we raised last year when Simeon Brown was the transport Minister and was progressing changes, which is why this bill is called the \u201CLand Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill (No 2)\u201D, because we had a No. 1 and the Government had failed to actually sort out the issues at that point in time, and they\u2019re coming back to say, \u201CActually, we don\u2019t care about the environment, we don\u2019t care about community\u2014about engagement in that space\u2014and actually, what we\u2019re going to do is we are just going to make things easier, change it, and actually set this country back at the same time.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EThis is entirely over the actions taken by the Government, and they need to take responsibility in their failure in that particular regard. The genesis of this is about trying to ensure that whatever the framework, whatever the structure, whatever the threshold is when it comes to tackling emissions, we are actually preparing for the future. What we want in the Labour Party\u2014and this is why we introduced the Clean Car Standard in the first place, let\u2019s not forget about that; the former Government\u2014is because we actually believe in a future where transport is cleaner, it\u2019s safer, and it\u2019s more affordable, and it also actually tackles the issues around low emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EWe all know that when we step back and look at the profile in terms of transportation, the emissions component is a huge contributor in terms of what this country does provide, in turn, as a community, and how we go about the things that we do. However, this bill is a backwards step. It really does weaken the integrity of the standard, and it really also delays the progress that this country needs. We need a Government that is going to be leading in this space, not seeking to continue to weaken the standard and other opportunities each day in the week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EThis bill does a number of things, and I\u2019m sure colleagues will touch on them specifically. The first one I want to speak about is it extends the lifespan of the carbon credits from three years to four years. This is, effectively, late in the piece as we head towards the end of the year, to say, \u201CWell, actually, we\u2019re going to not stick to the three-year time frame now because it\u2019s getting too\u2014well, it\u2019s not just getting too hard; actually, the time frame is coming up pretty quickly.\u201D That is a very clear step that has been taken by the Government, as opposed to try and identify possibilities around incentivisation or working with industry in a different frame to try and reduce the change that is needed there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EThe other significant change is the ability to\u2014as it stands currently, there are restrictions on the ability for industry participants to effectively transfer their credits. While players will hold a certain number of credits in the bank, so to speak, there is currently an inability for those credits to be transferred between used vehicles and new vehicles across the fleet. This, again, is another example of the Government simply weakening the standard by adding to\u2014yes\u2014the delay in terms of three to four years, but also more flexibility to basically offset what is currently held across used and new vehicles. Further, in terms of time frames, this is a bill that seeks to extend the borrowing of future credits beyond the end of this year, as well\u2014and so, yet again, this is painting a picture where this is a Government bill under urgency, where they\u2019re up against the clock and they\u2019re not interested in addressing and tackling some of the real issues that are so important in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EThe final change, which did come a little bit late in the piece, was\u2014we all know, generally, that heavier vehicles take a little bit more fuel or juice to get them around, whether that\u2019s electric or whether that\u2019s a bit more traditional, and so this will be a bill that will remove the weight-adjusted targets. They\u2019re not going to just sort of tinker with them; they\u2019re going to just wipe them all together so that there are not going to be any weight-adjusted targets that will provide differentiation between heavier vehicles and lighter vehicles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EIn tandem\u2014well, the four of them together, I guess, indicates a real change in direction in terms of where the country is heading around really tackling issues around climate change, taking seriously our ability as a country and our desire as a country to be reducing our emissions when it comes to transport, as well. Now, on the surface, one could be excused for thinking that, actually, these changes that we\u2019ve just talked through could be technical in nature\u2014perhaps even harmless, some might suggest. But the reality is that these changes will simply make it easier for importers to delay compliance. That is the bottom line. It is loosening the standard by giving more flexibility to importers to simply delay what is expected, what has been asked of them, what has been signalled for quite some time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EI recall this House, with the former transport Minister spending a lot of time looking at the comparability with Australia in terms of targets and getting some assurances from the Minister of Transport at the time that these were able to be delivered. It\u2019s very clear that we\u2019re in a very different situation because\u2014even though he\u2019s no longer the Minister, thank goodness\u2014he has failed to be able to deliver in that respect, as well. Every single day, we must turn our minds to how all participants in terms of the transport sector are able to play their part and do what they can to ensure that we are effectively dealing with issues around emissions and the like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EThe Labour Party continues to oppose this bill. It is a perhaps a small bill, but a very, very important one in terms of the impact that that will deliver for the sector. We have a number of Amendment Papers that we intend to progress and speak to as we work through the committee of the whole House stage, but it seems unless there is a complete U-turn by the Government at this late stage in the piece, our opposition will continue to stand. However, that will not mitigate the desire of the Opposition to continue to hold the Government to account as we progress this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022 data-id=\u00221f47fa9bd5b14d53b6f7fa0babce902a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f47fa9bd5b14d53b6f7fa0babce902a\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E The amazing thing about electric vehicles and low-emission vehicles is that they are so great for New Zealand. It means we spend less money on imported fossil fuels just to get around. And yet New Zealand has lagged behind other countries because we had no fuel efficiency standard, no fuel economy standard, on vehicle imports, until a few years ago. At that point, we were almost the last country in the OECD to get a fuel economy standard. The only country now in the OECD who doesn\u2019t have a fuel economy standard is Russia. But, of course, a fuel economy standard by itself was never going to be enough to get the transformation that we needed in our vehicle fleet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003ELet me just go back\u2014I\u2019m just going to repeat this one more time, because members opposite, the Government parties, say they care about productivity. One of the simplest, easiest things we could do to improve productivity is to improve the efficiency of our vehicle fleet. There are direct gains from that, immediately. Importing fewer fossil fuels, using less energy to get around\u2014just switching to electric vehicles, or even just more efficient vehicles, is a direct gain to New Zealand households.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EThe people who don\u2019t benefit from fuel efficiency as much are the polluting vehicle industry. The polluting vehicle industry don\u2019t want fuel economy standards. Why? Because it\u2019s more profitable for them. So, of course, like every other industry that has lobbied Government successfully\u2014like the tobacco industry, one that Minister Bishop will know a lot about\u2014they\u2019ve had this playbook where they come out and say that Government regulation is going to hurt consumers, that they\u2019re going to pay the high price, when, in reality, it is the vehicle manufacturers who simply don\u2019t want to have to sell more fuel-efficient vehicles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EThere are vehicle companies now who are here in New Zealand because we brought in the Clean Car Standard and the Clean Car Discount\u2014BYD probably wouldn\u2019t be here. I know for a fact that back in 2021, my friends were trying to buy an electric Hyundai. They couldn\u2019t get it and they were told it was going to be six months, at least, for them to be able to get this car.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EThen the Government made its announcement about the Clean Car Discount, and they got a phone call from the dealer saying they could get it in a month. So the reality is that these policies shape the choices that consumers have, and the whole point of those two policies is to make it easier for New Zealanders to access efficient, low-emissions vehicles. And it\u2019s fair\u2014it\u2019s fair. It\u2019s fair that polluters pay. It\u2019s fair that they pay a little extra, because there\u2019s no way we as a country are going to reduce the fossil fuel emissions from our vehicle fleet unless some people are incentivised to drop emissions faster.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f632f2877604727ace81d7ce7b40630\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: What about the ETS?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284c05952b5e34894a08257c419b4c23c\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: The emissions trading scheme (ETS) doesn\u2019t work on fuel, and that\u2019s why\u2014fuel is not in the European ETS, and there\u2019s a really simple reason for this. It\u2019s because people don\u2019t make their decisions about which vehicle they\u2019re going to buy based on what the fuel economy is, what the price of petrol is. It\u2019s a small component of the price of petrol, the ETS. And, by the way, this Government just crashed the ETS price. So it\u2019s a total joke. And we know who that member is really in here to represent, and it\u2019s not ordinary New Zealanders and it\u2019s not people who want action on climate change; it is the fossil fuel industry that funds people like the ACT Party\u2014to come in and mess up\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9dc6d5fc9764f1f921d1fede38bf285\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just be careful with some of those accusations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c47c1abdb1294990bd78bb52098bd7be\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: But this is the playbook\u2014this is the playbook. Industry lobbies Government, claims that consumers will miss out, and who actually misses out? New Zealanders. New Zealanders who don\u2019t get access to more fuel efficient vehicles will now have more polluting vehicles, which cost them more money to run, which makes the air dirtier, which means we pay higher health bills. They\u2019re in total denial.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s just see what\u2019s happening in the rest of the world, because, actually, with this bill, the Government is caving to a polluting industry one more time. No one\u2019s going to be surprised about that, because that\u2019s literally been the last two years of this Government: caving to polluting industries that are reducing our chances of having a livable, thriving future, and every time they claim it\u2019s going to save New Zealanders money, it\u2019s actually going to cost New Zealanders more money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229a9c205f95fc4f5c8943b440b9f5cb1d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b684ba891ea64bd4b975ba98fbb3e2f9\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: To buy their vehicles, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228052ac50dfe64dbe939a10ab2fbdc5d3\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s going to cost them more money because they\u2019re going to be spending more money to run their vehicles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229a9c205f95fc4f5c8943b440b9f5cb1d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289c64cab5a484181a248cc4065bc9957\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: To buy them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d96ba647848a461bab2ba70266e3bae3\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: Grant McCallum, I know I\u2019m never ever going to be successful in explaining basic economics to you, my friend.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EThe funniest thing\u2014I do have to refer to this\u2014that happened at the select committee, and I\u2019m sure all those members who weren\u2019t at the select committee would love to hear this, is Isuzu New Zealand came in and said they were opposed to the bill because they\u2019re opposed to the Clean Car Standard. I don\u2019t think he understood that the bill was actually making the standard weaker, but the person who was submitting held up this graph, which I know no one\u2019s going to able to see, because it\u2019s on my computer\u2014oh, maybe you can\u2014but, anyway, he thought this graph was evidence: \u201CWe didn\u2019t need a tax to achieve this.\u201D Now, let me describe what the graph shows. It shows the incredibly high proportion of passenger and SUV imports from 2015 to 2021 that are an internal combustion engine, and the tiny, tiny percentage that are electric vehicles or hybrid electric vehicles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EThen, suddenly, in 2021, something happened\u2014something happened\u2014and it had nothing to do with Government except it had everything to do with Government and it had everything to do with an evidence-based policy, which was the Clean Car Discount. Suddenly, there\u2019s a dramatic increase in electric vehicles and hybrid electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids. And then, suddenly, at the end of 2023, it stops and it bounces back up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003ESo, look, you\u2019ve got all the evidence right here, thanks to Isuzu New Zealand, who have no idea what they\u2019re talking about when they come and present to the select committee. But the Government has torn away a policy that was the envy of many other countries in the world. I spoke to a car manufacturer today who said that a few years ago, everyone was saying, \u201CHow do we copy what New Zealand is doing? This is great. They have one of the highest rates of EV uptake in the entire world thanks to the Clean Car Discount.\u201D With that, the industry was overshooting its targets. So, actually, that\u2019s why the targets in the Clean Car Standard were set at the rate they were: because we actually do have to reduce emissions from the fleet and we\u2019re basically becoming a dumping ground for the world\u2019s polluting vehicles with a weak, ineffective standard that will continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s not good for New Zealand: it means dirtier air, higher fuel bills, more fossil fuel imports\u2014it\u2019s stupid; it\u2019s stupid. I will say it again: this is stupid and unnecessary. If the members opposite were actually committed to helping New Zealanders achieve a more productive economy with a more productive transport system, with lower costs for everyone, they would support evidence-based policies that would mean we wouldn\u2019t be the laughing stock of the world\u2014which we are, because look at this\u2014oh, again, unfortunately, I don\u2019t think I\u2019m going to be able to show you the whole graph\u2014from 2023 to 2024, we were second to last in the entire world for the change in EV sales.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EFor the change in EV sales\u2014you can\u2019t really read that\u2014we are second to last in the world, and yet here we are, a country with high renewable electricity production. We have high car dependency because the Government keeps wasting money on roads and not investing in rail. There was going to be one thing we were going to do that would benefit the economy and put us in a better position with respect to climate change: that would be to electrify our vehicle fleet, which this Government is comprehensively failing to do. It\u2019s because they are in the pocket of polluting industry. They don\u2019t listen to the evidence; they listen to the people who benefit the most, which is a tiny percentage of New Zealanders, because they can sell more highly polluting vehicles which have a higher margin for them. That\u2019s it\u2014they get a higher margin. Are we better off? Is the country better off? Absolutely not. We\u2019re importing more fossil fuels as a result of it, and apparently they can\u2019t understand that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EAgain, it\u2019s embarrassing for them. I say that every day. How embarrassing for this Government that their entire fossil fuel reduction strategy when it comes to transport is EVs, and they absolutely tanked EV sales, and now they\u2019re caving to industry rather than doing something effective. The industry came to the select committee and said, \u201CThere\u2019s nothing we can do to influence consumer demand.\u201D, never minding the tens or maybe hundreds of millions of dollars the vehicle industry is spending on advertising on high emissions, utes, and SUVs to create the demand. OK, so that\u2019s where we\u2019re at. It\u2019s stupid. It\u2019s stupid and unnecessary, and it\u2019s very embarrassing for them. Embarrassing\u2014they don\u2019t understand economics, they don\u2019t understand how to get EVs in this country\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022086dd64d8dd940ffaf65eaf2cc1aa753\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da29eb446df640db82e0dbab7e2f3812\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and they laugh because they\u2019re so unaware of their own mediocrity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4752a8411e44b95bc401975d364b28c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4752a8411e44b95bc401975d364b28c\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I call Simon Court for the next speech, I\u2019m just going to say to the National Party backbench that when you all talk at once, no one\u2019s got a clue what anybody is saying, so maybe one at a time might be a better idea. Simon Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022 data-id=\u00222813d2205b67466caf1616a1c5c825e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222813d2205b67466caf1616a1c5c825e5\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Firstly, I want to acknowledge the previous speaker, Julie Anne Genter, and her passion for transport planning, for the environment, and for actually standing by and standing up for her values and principles. Now, I disagree with her on many issues, but I do agree with her on what she says, or what the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand says, in their differing view: improving the fuel efficiency of private vehicles imported to New Zealand has huge benefits. I know it does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003EMy first car was a Holden Commodore V8 station wagon\u2014a V8 station wagon\u2014it was a two-litre. I reckon it used about three times as much gas every week, or per kilometre, as my modern Subaru does. What that shows you is that over time, those vehicle manufacturers, making cars that are then imported, delivered to New Zealand, have actually improved fuel efficiency; they\u2019ve improved their emissions; they\u2019ve reduced the toxicity of their emissions to something that is negligible with catalytic converters. We have low-sulphur diesel; we\u2019ve removed lead in petrol; and yet, it\u2019s not enough for Julie Anne Genter and for the Green Party. But the ACT Party, we\u2019re practical people. We\u2019re here in Parliament, and we\u2019re in Government to fix what matters. That\u2019s why I\u2019m proud, as an ACT MP, somebody who has recently sat on the Transport and Infrastructure Committee for a short time to consider this legislation, along with my colleague Cameron Luxton, who was a permanent member on the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge Cameron Luxton for the hard work that he did on this report, along with the chair, Andy Foster, who graciously gave me the opportunity to ask a few questions of submitters during the committee stage. Cameron Luxton has made, like I said, a great effort. He, also, has suffered from having to drive high-emissions, low-efficiency vehicles for many years, but he won\u2019t give it up. Cameron Luxton is taking me around Tauranga in his V6 Suzuki Vitara four-wheel drive, and I tell you what: there\u2019s a guy who knows how to get every last kilometre out of his vehicle. He ain\u2019t giving that thing up. He ain\u2019t giving that thing up until Suzuki come back around with a new Vitara, and so we\u2019re holding on, probably until towards the end of this century. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003EI just want to speak to some of the matters the previous speaker, Julie Anne Genter, raised. Firstly, her conspiracy theory\u2014and that\u2019s what it was\u2014about members on this side of the House being somehow beholden to or under the influence of what she called the \u201Cfossil-fuel industry\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227cc10e0191c4b1882424a7fda5dbf54\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: Shameful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3b60383516b41f88030d3a30e306d84\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: That is an outrageous claim, isn\u2019t it, Dan Bidois? It\u2019s an outrageous claim, and it also ignores the fact that every single New Zealander is dependent on fuel suppliers, on energy suppliers, on the private sector to supply the energy we need: liquid fuels, solid fuels, gaseous fuels. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003EWhen Julie Anne Genter and her friends in the Green Party fly around the country or go to overseas conferences, like in the jungle in Brazil to COP30, they had to bulldoze a road through the jungle, through the rainforest to this remote city, apparently, for thousands of people to go and have a big, kind of, seance about the climate. You know, all of those fuels\u2014for the benefit of the member Julie Anne Genter\u2014are supplied by the private sector, and they help you get where you need to go. Madam Speaker, I didn\u2019t mean to bring you into the debate, I was just referring to all of us; we depend on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003ENow, coming back to electric vehicles, the member Julie Anne Genter made a good point. EVs are great. I mean, I have rented one occasionally, when I\u2019ve been going around the country on parliamentary business. Firstly, I just want to say they\u2019re very difficult to work out how to start them, because when they\u2019re electric, I\u2019m looking firstly for the button and then with a key. Really, I mean, they\u2019re actually quite technically challenging for somebody from West Auckland who is used to driving a petrol- or diesel-powered vehicle. So they are very advanced, and I do welcome this step change in technology into New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003EBut one of the challenges we have in New Zealand is that we are already using more electricity on some days than we can produce from our existing generation capacity. That is why we have to keep a million-tonne stockpile of coal at Huntley to make sure that the lights don\u2019t go out. So while it\u2019s laudable that many New Zealanders have invested in EVs and drive them, we do have these actual structural changes in the amount of electricity we can deliver to those people who want to charge them at home or charge them at their business. That\u2019s only going to become more of a challenge as we move towards the much more digital-, data-, and energy-hungry world that we are moving towards, whether it\u2019s data centres or whether it\u2019s entire fleet transitions to hybrid or plug-in electric vehicles, as many commercial fleets are doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003EBut I want to come to the issues of this bill. The reason this bill was at select committee was because a previous Government\u2014a Labour-Green Government\u2014introduced not only the ute tax\u2014the \u201Cclean vehicle discount\u201D, they called it; put a nice little unicorn sticker on it\u2014but it was going to be about five to eight grand more for a van or a ute, the kinds of vehicles that tradies and farmers needed\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281a465eb20294645bc63efa635c80cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266a84b9f331447b18c0cbd036d72630d\u0022\u003ECameron Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: I could only afford a Vitara. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6f1115887c14a3fb846d0acfc821729\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s why the former dairy farmer, and current licensed building practitioner, Cameron Luxton, probably couldn\u2019t afford to upgrade from his Vitara. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003EThe clean vehicle discount and this green vehicle standard was a double tax on actually getting the vehicles that Kiwis needed. If you think about the point I made\u2014my interjection to Julie Anne Genter\u2019s speech\u2014about the emissions trading scheme (ETS), Kiwis already pay for their emissions through the ETS. They pay, typically, when the ETS is running at about 50 bucks a tonne of carbon, as it is now, somewhere between $9 and $11 every time they fill their vehicle up with petrol, and a similar amount in diesel. So what that means is for somebody who drives, you know, maybe 400 or 500 kilometres a week, like a lot of people do around town, if they\u2019re going from one side of town to the other, like a tradie, like a parent, running kids to gymnastics or swimming after school and sports games on the other side of town. If your kids are playing sport, you\u2019re probably paying your fair share\u2014$10, $11 a week, maybe more\u2014for your carbon emissions. So when you had the clean vehicle discount\u2014the \u201Cdirty ute tax\u201D, which is gone\u2014you\u2019re paying once, paying the clean vehicle standard, if you replaced your family vehicle with a new one, and paying twice\u2014well, that\u2019s almost gone\u2014and again, the emissions trading scheme is all we need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003EI just want to come back to some of the submissions that were made. The manufacturers: I was actually really concerned. Many of them had made the point in the 53rd Parliament, when the legislation that the previous Labour-Green Government brought in to put this clean car standard in place came through the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, which I sat on at the time, the manufacturers said it\u2019s not necessary. All the vehicle manufacturers in Japan and Europe, they make vehicles that have a very low-emissions standard already. Any standard that New Zealand might like to stick on it just to feel good about itself isn\u2019t going to shift the dial at all from an international or even a local emissions profile point of view. It\u2019s not going to reduce emissions at all, because guess what, Julie Anne Genter? Japan and Europe are not making special cars just for New Zealand to meet our standard. Who knew?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003EThe importers and the manufacturers told this previous Parliament\u2014the 53rd Parliament\u2014that. They predicted and they forecast exactly the situation we\u2019re in now, where there is a huge deficit built up in trading accounts of importers and manufacturers, who have continued to deliver Kiwis the vehicles they need, taking the risk on this cost, that it\u2019s going to land on their balance sheets and have to be passed on to motorists. Yet all of this prediction, all of this foresight, the previous Government ignored it. That\u2019s why this Government is cleaning it up. That\u2019s why we\u2019re here to fix what matters tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003ENow, it\u2019s heartening to hear the Minister Chris Bishop say that there\u2019s a paper on the Table where he\u2019s proposing to reduce the amount of actual emissions charges per unit of carbon by about 80 percent. That\u2019s going to save Kiwis tens of millions of dollars a year. But in the long term, what we do know is that the clean vehicle standard is unnecessary when we already have the emissions trading scheme. You\u2019re already paying for your emissions every time you put fuel in the tank. There are already plenty of options out there, when it comes to EVs and hybrids. The Government does not need to be involved in this. The ACT Party welcomes this change, but we want it to go further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd244abe272b4d15a3a78b8155197992\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd244abe272b4d15a3a78b8155197992\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Madam Speaker. I want to start off just by saying some thanks as chair of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, because this is also reporting back from the select committee. Thanks to the submitters. There weren\u2019t many of them, but they were very good submissions. Thanks to the officials and thanks also to the committee. In this one, we haven\u2019t agreed with each other, but it\u2019s still really important that we had some good discussion on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EWe had to report it back quickly, or we decided we would report it back quickly in response to the Minister\u2019s request. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf54fb15215741afa705273561ecb4d2\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Who decided?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c935f0b4d25f432ea601069e510e80e1\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER\u003C/span\u003E: Now, the reason for that actually\u2014and the Opposition is asking why? I think the reason for that was made very clear by the Minister in public, which we don\u2019t always get, but the Minister made it very clear in public that he regarded the scheme as it is as broken. The majority of the committee actually agree: the scheme is fundamentally broken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003ENow, how does the scheme work? Well, in simple terms, basically if you\u2019ve got a low-emitting vehicle, you\u2019re going to end up likely having credits. If you have a high emitting vehicle, you\u2019re likely to end up essentially having debits and you\u2019re trying to manage the two together. The idea was that there should be those two should marry. But the reality is that the two of them are not marrying. We have far, far more high-emitting vehicles and much fewer low-emitting vehicles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EWhy is that? What we heard quite clearly from submitters is that submitters don\u2019t want to buy the vehicles that are being imported to try and meet the clean vehicle standard. So importers, manufacturers are bringing in a certain collection of vehicles and the public of New Zealand\u2014so it\u2019s not the Government choosing, it\u2019s not anybody being paid, you know, or, say, the fuel industry paying us to persuade people to buy particular cars. It is New Zealanders who are choosing to buy a particular set of cars. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EWhat we heard from the industry was that that hits them in two ways. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc28f047de3b44ba99a1dc2f8413feb2\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: From the industry. That\u2019s who you listen to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022448e2242ca8446c39991e4b254075f0f\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER\u003C/span\u003E: One is\u2014the industry who talked to us said that hits them in two ways. One is that they end up with a deficit, and that is a very significant deficit. They will have to buy credits which they have to pay for, ultimately. So, effectively, that is a tax. The second one is that they end up, effectively, stockpiling a very substantial number of vehicles which they can\u2019t sell. So they get hit twice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EAs a select committee, we were tasked to consider three things. We were tasked to consider the way in which the credit system worked and how long the credits will be able to be used. Secondly, we were tasked to look at the weight comparison situation, and thirdly, about the conversion rate between new and used vehicles. But the reality is that whatever we did with those things, and we did make improvements to those things, really, it\u2019s deck chairs on the Titanic for the industry, because none of those things\u2014you do all of those things, it still does not make the system viable and workable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThe industry told us that they are bringing in cars to offset each other, but the Kiwis, as I said, don\u2019t want to buy that particular mix of vehicles. Now, Julie Anne Genter said that this is caving to the polluting car industry. No, it\u2019s not. What this is is New Zealanders who are choosing to buy particular vehicles because the vehicles that they assumed that New Zealanders would want to buy when the system was set up, New Zealanders, funnily enough, have said \u201CActually, those are not the vehicles that we want to buy.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EWhat you need to do is to look at the assumptions behind the scheme. What the regulatory impact statement quite clearly says is that the assumptions behind the scheme when it was set up, basically, are wrong. That\u2019s the fundamental thing that we need to be stepping back and actually reviewing the scheme and setting the fundamentals right and the assumption\u2019s right, because we\u2019ve got that wrong right from the beginning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThe industry actually, surprisingly to me, supports the idea of a clean vehicle scheme, but it doesn\u2019t support the way in which it\u2019s set up. So we do need to take a step back and try and make sure it\u2019s done properly, because if we don\u2019t do it properly, there will be really significant implications, not just for the vehicle industry, but also for New Zealanders who want to buy vehicles. I understand Julie Anne Genter said that we started off being way behind the rest of the world or much of the world. One of the problems with that is the last Government tried to catch us up very quickly. So where the rest of the world, by and large, had done this over 15 years, in New Zealand we tried to do it over five\u2014over five. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThe second thing we did is the industry has said the last Government did not engage with the industry. Now, they have regularly complained about this side of the House not consulting with whoever it is that they want us to consult with. In this instance they didn\u2019t do that either. They did not consult with the industry. [Knocks over glass] Guess what that means!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022200dc11d59dc466eb279ba7e27c100b8\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Woah!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225169c18807a74dd4907115c9c639984b\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER\u003C/span\u003E: They did not\u2014there was no water in it, thankfully. Guess what! That means that they did not get the settings right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThe other issue we have which comes in there that Simon Court has actually highlighted is when you buy a vehicle, you\u2019re paying the emissions trading scheme (ETS)\u2014when you operate a vehicle, you\u2019re paying the ETS\u2014and that should pay for those, you know, pesky emissions. But not only are they being taxed once, they were, under the last administration, being taxed under this clean vehicle discount scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThirdly, we had not only the Clean Car Discount; we also had the flip side of that, which wasn\u2019t even funded because the Clean Car Discount actually costs more than the Ute tax, which we all remember as well. So it was a triple taxation. There\u2019s an absolute lack of faith in the systems that were there. I agree, Julie Anne Genter, that, you know, it\u2019s fair that polluters pay. It\u2019s fair that polluters pay once, but it\u2019s not fair that they pay twice and then three times. That is completely unfair. That is the system which was set up under the last Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EAs I said, I was surprised that the companies didn\u2019t actually want to abolish the scheme entirely. I had some meetings outside of this as well. Julie Anne Genter, you said that you spoke to a car manufacturer this week. Well, I spoke to some big car manufacturers this week and they basically said if we didn\u2019t fix this, they will be out of the country and those whole ranges of vehicles would not be available for New Zealanders to buy. I don\u2019t think that that would do New Zealand any good whatsoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022430c8b5652b1413db25371636a52dff8\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Greens don\u2019t care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b23bcb36412b459e8c2168de6910de83\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER\u003C/span\u003E: The Greens don\u2019t care about a lot of these things. They talk about evidence-based decision-making, but when it\u2019s evidence they don\u2019t like\u2014when it\u2019s evidence they don\u2019t like\u2014no, that\u2019s not evidence at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThe reason that these companies said that they still supported the idea of a scheme, but make sure that it is set properly, is because they don\u2019t trust that some future Government\u2014on the left wing side of the House\u2014wouldn\u2019t impose some completely new scheme, some completely new random scheme, that would be utterly unviable and unsustainable for them. They would rather have something that actually makes some sense. That is the important thing that we need to do. That is where, I think, the Minister is going. That is one of the reasons that the select committee was already keen to support the early report back of this\u2014[Interruption]\u2014by majority. If we don\u2019t fix this, what it will result in is more expensive vehicles for New Zealanders and less brands available for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EJust to finish off with, what the industry is saying is the industry may meet the standards in time, but they cannot meet it now. As we\u2019ve already heard, New Zealand doesn\u2019t make a whole lot of cars. We get those vehicles from other countries in the world, so we cannot drive what they produce. We have to receive what they produce, and we need to set our standards somewhere based on reality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225301548748464a028323b44c47de60b8\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: A dumping ground for polluting vehicles, and we all pay for it\u2014we all pay for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2cc551a25ef4dfdab96f8887c865ccf\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, thank you\u2014thank you. I think what I\u2019ll do is I\u2019ll leave it there. But the key thing is that we do need to reset the system, because if we don\u2019t reset the system, New Zealand consumers will suffer and there will be no great benefit to the climate either. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bbd6ec37fb94844b14d666177f05004\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call. Scott Willis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022 data-id=\u00227ce6063a479b4c35942e73d20bc71a40\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ce6063a479b4c35942e73d20bc71a40\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbd9a4580fc24f0abff2678c1ee0d583\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You nearly missed it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c30e609c262b43f5add78729bd643848\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: That would be a pity. That would be a pity, given that we have, now, the fantastic recognition of being the fossil of the day. The fossils opposite must appreciate that. We have global news that is not very happy. The world is dangerously close to overshooting the 1.5\u00A0degree climate target. Temperature records continue to be broken. We saw, in the Deep South, our farmers cut off from electricity, with storms running through it recently, having to rely on the wind farms, the solar, the battery storage that was there, and generators. Those extreme storms, the fires, the floods are happening more and more again. We know that scientists say that the window for stabilising the climate is closing really, really fast.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EWhat we need is stronger action now, not policies that will slow or weaken our emissions reductions. New Zealand\u2019s 2026 target is laxer than the targets of China, the United Kingdom, the USA, Canada, and South Korea. Let\u2019s question what this bill does. It gives vehicle importers more flexibility to meet the Clean Car Standard by extending carbon credit lifespan from three to four years. It allows credit transfers between new and used vehicle importers with a two to one ratio. It extends the ability to borrow against future overachievement beyond 2025. These are presented as just technical or administrative fixes, but they have real climate implications.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EWhy is this bill being introduced? We hear that importers are struggling to meet targets because the Government cancelled the Clean Car Discount. Low-emission vehicle demand has plummeted. Electric vehicle importers were caught short when they cancelled the Clean Car Discount and had to sell them at a serious discount. We\u2019re seeing compliance becoming harder because of the lack of a Clean Car Discount. This bill, effectively, lets importers stretch their old credits further, bank past credit achievements, and cover the current slump in clean vehicle imports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003ELet me tell you why we oppose this bill. I think it\u2019s pretty obvious really. Weakening our climate action when the urgency is on us to take every action we can now is not just stupid; it is dangerous. Greater flexibility usually means delayed emissions reduction. Near-term cuts are critical. We need cuts to our emissions to stay close to the 1.5\u00A0degree pathway, and we should be accelerating reductions, not slowing them. Furthermore, it is fixing the wrong problem. The problem, as has been discussed, was the removal of the Clean Car Discount, not the standard itself. Instead of reinstating an effective policy, the bill compensates. That\u2019s what this Government is doing. It\u2019s trying to compensate for their lack. It compensates for its absence by weakening the rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EFurthermore, it risks undermining the integrity of the clean vehicle standard. The standard already has built-in flexibility, credits, transfers, and deferrals, and a standard with too much elasticity simply loses its climate purpose. What\u2019s more, it\u2019s going to cost more for those people who buy the dirtier cars, because they\u2019ll be paying more for dirty fuel, not for the electricity that they could have off peak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EOur transport policy is guided by ecological wisdom. We\u2019re at a point where the world is breaching climate thresholds. We can\u2019t afford climate denial legislation that dilutes climate action. We oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022 data-id=\u002237b8e963f1a641eeb03320e0663acf36\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237b8e963f1a641eeb03320e0663acf36\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s time we get back to Earth on this bill and, in particular, the select committee process. We heard very clearly from submitters two bits of feedback. The first is around the supply and demand mismatch for electric vehicles, and the second, and equally important, is that most importers are not going to meet the target and that will basically impose a hell of a lot of charges on the sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022\u003EThe changes that the Minister proposed in the select committee stage\u2014and amendments in the committee of the whole House stage\u2014aim to address this. I think it will, and I commend the select committee for recommending a review of the scheme. I think that will be timely, and I welcome the Minister\u2019s review. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9af153c1b8a4bd48dc779df1068006d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9af153c1b8a4bd48dc779df1068006d\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m just looking at the time; it\u2019s approaching 12 a.m., but given I have 10 minutes, I fully intend to take that full 10 minutes. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0b5c6b83c754b88b67d27d04576bc32\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Just give us four and a half and it will be sweet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a4866fd687d4633b98d18e9b451f4d5\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: Ha! We\u2019ll see what happens; we\u2019ll see what happens. I may be regaled with such witty interjections that I change my mind. Who knows? [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00228ae8c6d626de47e8b43b655afeddf75d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ae8c6d626de47e8b43b655afeddf75d\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I can\u2019t hear the member!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6142b9100c047278855934eca28a5c7\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: Labour will be opposing this bill, not because we don\u2019t support, obviously, a strong practical path, ultimately, for cleaner transport but because, quite frankly, this bill does the exact opposite of that and certainly isn\u2019t what we need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EThrough the select committee process, we heard directly from officials\u2014and I agree with the member that\u2019s just resumed his seat\u2014and we heard directly from industry, and from environmental groups which we failed to mention. What struck me was that no one could point to a single piece of evidence showing that this bill would reduce emissions faster or make life easier for families in the long term. Ultimately, that\u2019s what we should be aiming for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EWhat they did say very openly, however, is that parts of industry\u2014a very specific part of industry\u2014fundamentally wanted weaker rules and the Government, quite frankly, was just happy to oblige. So that feels a bit lame. We find ourselves, here, just before midnight on a Wednesday evening in November still, when it should be sometime in December, reporting back on this bill because all of a sudden it had to be reported back to the House in a rush because the Minister essentially instructed the Transport and Infrastructure Committee to do so. We think that was a pretty shoddy process. We\u2019re disappointed in the select committee for doing that. It\u2019s a pretty fundamental thing to expect that that doesn\u2019t happen, but here we find ourselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EThe fact is that the committee\u2019s own report, which is by definition a majority report, reads almost like an admission. The changes certainly aren\u2019t about better policy; they\u2019re about relaxing rules, because they\u2019re essentially helpful to a handful of importers who asked for it. When the submitters pointed out that EV demand had fallen, which several members of the Government have pointed out\u2014EV demand had fallen after the Clean Car Discount was scrapped. You know, that\u2019s not rocket science; that\u2019s incentives at play. It\u2019s pretty straightforward, it\u2019s a correlation, it\u2019s all sorts of X and Y graphs; it\u2019s pretty straightforward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EThe Clean Car Discount was scrapped, and the Government majority simply brushed that off. Instead of finding another way to fix what was essentially a looming problem, the solution was just to give in, give up, and just go, \u201CNah, we\u2019ll just have dirtier cars. What harm could that be?\u201D So we\u2019re left with this bill, which slows down progress, weakens accountability, and, quite frankly, just creates loopholes. The Transport and Infrastructure Committee itself couldn\u2019t justify any of that with any reason or any data.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003ELabour believes that, quite frankly, New Zealand just deserves better. We should have higher ambitions, we should be setting ourselves better goals. We\u2019ve already been incredibly slow in adopting any kind of standard whatsoever, and when we finally get something to be proud of, we just scrap it at the first hurdle, after the first quarter, when a certain sector of the industry complain that they\u2019ve got too many cars that other people don\u2019t want. There are several other ways to have fixed that problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EThe Transport and Infrastructure Committee confirmed, I think, via its majority report, that the bill weakens the clean vehicle standards. Officials told the committee that the current targets were achievable if policy settings continued to support EV uptake, as I said, which the Government removed. The majority report didn\u2019t dispute that the bill responds to importer pressure, and I think that\u2019s quite telling, as well. Several submitters pointed out that loosening the rules now means we simply push costs and emissions on to those future households, which is a shame. The bill isn\u2019t evidence-based, and this Government often claims that\u2019s a priority for them. This is the opposite of an evidence-based bill; it\u2019s a concession package for industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003ESecondly, extending carbon credit lifespans, there\u2019s no other way to describe it: it just weakens annual accountability. Credits were deliberately time limited when the standard was designed, obviously. Officials confirmed that time limits are essential. They\u2019re an essential part of that package to ensure year-on-year progress, and the Government again provided no real analysis showing how a four-year lifespan would achieve the same reductions. If you give importers more time to comply, they\u2019re going to take more time to comply. That\u2019s essentially human nature, and the committee heard nothing to suggest otherwise. Essentially, a four-year credit life lets importers meet yesterday\u2019s targets tomorrow, which is not how decarbonisation works, which is a real shame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EThe other point that I wanted to make was about removing weight adjustments without strengthening the actual targets, which we just believe, on this side of the House, is irresponsible. Weight adjustments were transitional\u2014agreed\u2014but their removal was always intended to coincide with stronger targets, not weaker targets. Several importers admitted that they would meet targets more easily now because of this bill, and absolutely no analysis was provided on how the change affects heavy vehicle emissions, despite those emissions rising fastest. So the Government essentially removed the stabilisers and loosened the rules, all to make compliance easier, particularly for heavy vehicles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to slowing decarbonisation, this bill slows that journey and gives nothing back to households. That\u2019s a really important point because the other part of this argument is that, ultimately, we want a fleet of cars that are not only just ambitious but practically, on a day-to-day level, able to relieve the pressure on fuel costs for households, for real families. Submitters emphasised that National\u2019s previous repeal of the Clean Car Discount was a key driver in slowing down EV uptake, and it wasn\u2019t the standard itself; officials made it clear that delaying compliance simply shifts those costs on to future consumers\u2014and taxpayers ultimately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EOn this side of the House, we absolutely believe that New Zealanders want a cleaner, cheaper-to-run vehicle fleet and they want lower emissions. They also want a Government that, quite frankly, takes climate change seriously. Time and time again, this Government has provided copious amounts of examples where you can watch them being more and more flippant with the concept of doing something about this really important issue. We don\u2019t believe that New Zealanders want a Government that just simply caves in to any kind of pressure just when the going starts getting a bit tough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EThis bill slows things down. It\u2019s, you know\u2014the Minister described it as a small bill. But my colleague Tangi Utikere said that whilst small, it\u2019s incredibly important. It\u2019s just really disappointing. It\u2019s a missed opportunity to actually strengthen the standards and speed up transition. As I said, we\u2019re already incredibly slow off the mark by introducing any kind of fuel standards whatsoever in the first place. It just means that we\u2019re going to be in receipt of a bigger, more polluting, and more costly vehicle fleet in the future, and leaving it for someone else to deal with later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002218ec6d5974ba426293347721d38d5c61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218ec6d5974ba426293347721d38d5c61\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This debate is interrupted and is set down for resumption this morning. The House is suspended until 9.00 a.m. today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118994281b3a06a43c9a2476e676d2ed256001378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 12.01 a.m. to 9. a.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002290d182a87f4c4f5a93fc483bef23d7b4\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 18 NOVEMBER 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220b819b3832b34118955a941f290e4e96\u0022\u003E(continued on Thursday, 20 November 2025)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002265a81ab388d840128e7169e112834e4a\u0022\u003ELand Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eb20185af3f44f369447e09485c09ff9\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022584cfca8e87a464baa7784fa499bf283\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022584cfca8e87a464baa7784fa499bf283\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Good morning, everyone. When we finished last evening, we were on the second reading of the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill (No 2), call No. 9. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df23ed9a7102406f9899558fb3841582\u0022 data-id=\u0022a796f1e235254f1fa52f405816cfd363\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df23ed9a7102406f9899558fb3841582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a796f1e235254f1fa52f405816cfd363\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m not sure if it was too late last night for the members on the other side, but, clearly, they are still living in a dream, or perhaps in their own la-la land. The members on the other side tried to link falling electric vehicle demand to the repeal of the Clean Car Discount, yet almost every submitter confirmed that that\u2019s not what\u2019s driving the market. It is driven by the broader market factors, not the policy change. One thing is certain: the vehicle importers who made submissions all agreed that the previous standards, set by the former Government, were unrealistic and impractical, and this is why we\u2019re here\u2014to clean up their mess. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbdd13c4bb6d47aea72fbc810c1a4594\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbdd13c4bb6d47aea72fbc810c1a4594\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Good to see the caffeine levels have hit in this early in the morning. Shanan Halbert\u2014a five-minute call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022 data-id=\u002230a32f48644443c79613bca21783489e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230a32f48644443c79613bca21783489e\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Look how backwards Mt Roskill has become when it comes to the progress in our transport fleet. Anyone in this discussion will know that 43 percent of our emissions in this country come from our transport fleet across Aotearoa New Zealand. And we are, this morning, debating a bill that certainly takes us backwards on climate and emissions. It takes us backwards on our transport across Auckland and New Zealand. But this is no surprise, and this is exactly the reason why New Zealanders are turning against this National-led Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003ELabour continues to oppose this bill because it takes us backwards and the select committee process confirmed that this bill in fact weakens the clean vehicle standard and undermines New Zealand\u2019s progress in transport emissions. Our dissenting view makes it very clear that the bill does prioritise short-term convenience for importers over meaningful emissions reductions. It extends the carbon credit lifespans from three to four years, undermining annual accountability, and it will slow decarbonisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EWe spent a bit of time at the Transport and Infrastructure Committee. A lot of mahi was done and there was a lot of consultation across the sector, and change is difficult, of course. Change is difficult, but what I know is that New Zealanders don\u2019t want to go backwards. They want to protect our planet. They want to make sure we\u2019re doing the right things now for tomorrow and for generations to come, and this bill simply weakens the standard of what New Zealanders expect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EThis Government has been influenced. It\u2019s been influenced by the big players in town, so they\u2019re making decisions to move such legislation despite the fact that the majority view in the report makes no attempt to hide the fact that the bill responds to industry pressure. The bill responds to industry pressure for looser rules, not environmental or economic evidence. Now, that \u201CE\u201D word does go missing quite often under this Government. Evidence isn\u2019t informing the decisions of the leadership of this country at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve got to come back, move away from our political ideology and what we hear, and try and fight for relevancy in a New Zealand that is turning against the National Party, and start using evidence for the decisions that we expect, whether it be in transport or whether it be in health or whether it be in education. Evidence is incredibly important. But the thing is, we\u2019ve got to listen to our communities. We\u2019ve got to listen to our communities and find the right balance; listen to our communities and hear what they are saying, as well as to industry\u2014I say to the ACT Party over there. Yes, industry is important, but we\u2019ve got to make the right decisions for now and for tomorrow. But the new trading rules risk incentivising higher-emitting used vehicles. The majority\u2019s recommendation enables credit transfers between new and used importers with a two-for-one exchange rate. And, of course, Labour highlighted to the committee that this flexibility risks flooding New Zealand with more used high-emitting vehicles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EAnyone who has sat on the Transport and Infrastructure Committee will know that because we\u2019re at the bottom of the world, we will be recipients of the dirtiest cars in the world, and this was an attempt, of course, to change some of that, to do better, to protect our environment, and to actually demonstrate some evidence-led leadership in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EWe do not agree with this bill. It takes us backwards. It doesn\u2019t reduce emissions and, of course, this Government is making just another bad decision that New Zealand is turning against them on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229a9c205f95fc4f5c8943b440b9f5cb1d\u0022 data-id=\u00224452d67e02db4908872f38be6d6ab180\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229a9c205f95fc4f5c8943b440b9f5cb1d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224452d67e02db4908872f38be6d6ab180\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Good morning, Mr Speaker. Well, there\u2019s something that the people on the other side of the House haven\u2019t worked out. It\u2019s that the people of this country love their utes, and we need to be able to have our utes so that we can drive up to Northland\u2014the electorate that\u2019s miles above the rest\u2014over the Brynderwyn Hills and do it in an affordable manner. I commend the bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022 data-id=\u0022560cf9afc0d643dfb9b175318d7a4bc6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022560cf9afc0d643dfb9b175318d7a4bc6\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Good morning, everyone, and good morning, Mr Speaker. I was on the Transport and Infrastructure Committee when the legislation came through that both provided a discount, an incentive, for people to buy electric vehicles and brought in standards. One of the things that we heard was we heard an outcry that I was used to hearing in my previous job, where people would go, \u201CThis can\u2019t possibly happen. This won\u2019t work. We\u2019re going to have this crisis.\u201D, etc.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003ENone of this actually happened. What we got was we got things like electric vehicles going down\u2014one went down $20,000 because there was a market to meet. That was a van, and it was something that wasn\u2019t on the market, and so, actually, the dealers reduced the prices of those, and we got a whole lot more electric vehicles in the country than we had had before. So there was a lot of choice, and the Hon Julie Anne Genter talked about that. There were things like \u201Cbuild your own\u201D electric vehicles, which just weren\u2019t here, and suddenly they were here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s the value of Government taking leadership: we can create a market. We can create an appetite. I look at the report that was done on this bill. It says, under \u201COther matters considered\u201D, \u201CWe heard from the motor vehicle industry, particularly the new vehicle industry, that settings in the clean vehicle standards regime are fundamentally and structurally misaligned with the vehicle fleet that New Zealanders wish to purchase.\u201D That\u2019s a really interesting comment. It\u2019s from a lobby group and it\u2019s talking about what New Zealanders wish to purchase. Well, we live in a world where we actually can lead that desire.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EWhen I think about my electorate of Mt Albert, which is, actually, very similar to Carlos\u2019\u2014in fact, Carlos Cheung\u2019s electorate and mine will actually lose a bit of ground together in the next boundary change\u2014and I think about those people who are living in somewhere like Wesley, which is an area that we share in that way, I think about the way that the motorway goes right next to the people in that area, and it dips. They\u2019re being impacted by the emissions from those very vehicles. Their kids will die as a result\u2014[Interruption] I\u2019m not overstating it, and I need to be able to make this point. The children in that area will die at a greater rate because of the emissions from those utes that Grant McCallum just talked about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EBefore you cry across the House, there\u2019s actually good research on that: people die because of pollution in cities from cars, and, actually, when you remove a whole lot of petrol vehicles and diesel vehicles from the fleet, you actually impact on the wellbeing and the health of the children in the very electorates that you come from. It might not be such a problem for Grant McCallum, who comes from an area where there aren\u2019t a lot of people, and so those emissions aren\u2019t such a problem, because there\u2019s a spread of people. But in intensified cities\u2014and remember that Carlos Cheung\u2019s and my area will take the majority of new people coming into Auckland because we\u2019re building in a different way and we\u2019re building more intensely. As we do that, it\u2019s incredibly important that for the sake of Carlos Cheung\u2019s children, for the sake of, hopefully, my grandchildren, we clean up the air.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df23ed9a7102406f9899558fb3841582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5cbc84a84c047e6bc3d718c1daa57d1\u0022\u003EDr Carlos Cheung\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Mr Speaker, I accept that the other member can attack me, but I don\u2019t think she should be using my children as an example in the speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e616bb3b2ea5424cbdaf1dedb44762a5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Sit down, Mr Cheung. Mr Cheung, this is a robust discussion, and I\u2019ve heard you, actually, being quite vocal in it. Give and take\u2014just a little bit less sensitivity. Carry on, Ms White.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df23ed9a7102406f9899558fb3841582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef2773f3d033493cb852de1045516bd7\u0022\u003EDr Carlos Cheung\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cfb3a20932b4a1189abd38dae18a6b5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Mr Cheung, this is a frivolous interjection, and I\u2019m treating it as such, particularly for someone who has been actually making some considerable noise across the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022431c44e96b404fec94dd8cb073e716f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8d5f234336449518ef21309cf5f8307\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I do take your point, Mr Speaker, but there is a long-held convention in the House that we do not introduce our families and family members into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cea7bc8420314b53b47d6f23a446bd20\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, well, I took it as a broad enough mention. But there\u2019s obviously been some\u2014just carry on with your speech and be aware of the sensitivities of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022906c8af11d5d4754af31bab7711cbab7\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, I will. My point was about the broader situation in both our electorates. We have children growing up in an environment where we know that children in this country in particular get asthma. We know we have higher rates than most places in the world. It\u2019s incredibly important that we work on air quality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EI take the point that was made by Simon Court that cars have got better. They are better than they were; we\u2019ve taken out the lead. But our job as a legislature is to actually lead changes that are important to the wellbeing of our people. We can drive an economy one way or the other, and this is very, very important to the people in our electorate, because it is a life and death situation. We know from the science that we have done; we know that those are real, real prices that people pay for the pollution in our cities. I remember waking up in the COVID era when we were in our lockdowns, and lots of people will remember this: we had a city where there were fewer cars and we actually had a cleaner environment than we\u2019ve ever had, and it was a little glimpse of what we could build into our cities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003ESo while I am in favour of building more intensely in the inner city, I do see the value in doing that alongside initiatives like the Clean Car Standard. When we do that, we drive change that\u2019s consistent with the communities growing in a different way, and that\u2019s our job: our job is to lead that change. Our job is not to listen to a lobby group that says, \u201CPeople don\u2019t like all these vehicles; we have to sell them cheaper.\u201D Actually, that\u2019s a good thing. If there\u2019s a glut of electric vehicles and hybrid vehicles on the lots of the car dealers, if there\u2019s a glut of those and they have to cut their profits to get those cars out\u2014if they have to do that, and there are not a lot of car dealers going bust at the moment, they\u2019re doing OK. If they have to move into the electric vehicle fleet, then, actually, that\u2019s a really good thing. It\u2019s a really good thing. That\u2019s our job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s so interesting that we\u2019re so tough on people out there who lose their jobs at the moment that we tell them they have to move regions. We tell them they have to be flexible, that they should go to Australia for that. We\u2019re so tough on them, but we\u2019re not tough on the people who are running these kinds of operations where they have to be mindful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EWe had a person on the radio today talking about this law. He runs an electric motor vehicle company. He is bringing in electric motor vehicles. He was talking about the damage that this is going to do. That person is actually working to a value system. It\u2019s not all about profit for him; it\u2019s a balance. He\u2019s making money out of those vehicles and he\u2019s doing a good thing at the same time. Those are not things that we should see as some sort of dichotomy. We can drive this industry the right way, and we can actually save some lives by doing so. We can clean up our environment, and we can meet our emissions targets, which is going to be really, really important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EInstead, what I\u2019ve heard from this House is\u2014I\u2019ve heard Grant McCallum, who\u2019s a really lovely guy, get up and say he wants to drive\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd5ac176d9444571a34c0ef6617eff4d\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022994307b614e94f7cb6a9583c27cca903\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: He is; he\u2019s a lovely guy. But he\u2019s in the Dark Ages. He\u2019s saying he\u2019s got the right to go across the Brynderwnys in his ute. Well, that is an important right for Grant McCallum, but it is not as important as the right of the children in my area to have a clean environment. That\u2019s a more important right. And we actually have to choose sometimes. It\u2019s our job to choose, to be brave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s really interesting that the National Party came into Government talking about bringing people forward, and it\u2019s doing the opposite. It\u2019s burying its head in the sand in pieces of legislation like this. If there\u2019s any issue in this area, well, it needs a solution that\u2019s creative, it needs a solution that\u2019s principled; it does not need this movement backwards, this visionless move. Find some decent solutions, do some work. If you\u2019ve got a problem, fix it well, not like this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00226471e29546d84c27846c2b997d5ce1d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226471e29546d84c27846c2b997d5ce1d0\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I call the next speaker, I just reflect on the interaction that took place, Mr Cheung. I accept, Mr Cheung, that, clearly, you felt that you had been impugned or your family had been impugned\u2014you mentioned this. So I accept that, and this is to just reinforce that we do keep families out of this. Some of this is in the eye of the beholder, I realise that, so just a general warning that we do keep families out of our debate here. So I\u2019ll accept that you were genuinely distressed at that comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a812c9a8930e4d04b686d9fd5da65da5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a812c9a8930e4d04b686d9fd5da65da5\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I\u2019d just like to acknowledge some of the comments that the member on the opposite side of the House made around providing practical solutions and choice. That is what this bill is all about, because, like she has said, people want choice. If they want to drive their ute across the Brynderwyns, they should be able to have that choice. If a consumer wants to buy an electric vehicle and drive around the streets of Auckland, that is their choice. This is about bringing down the cost of vehicles for consumers in a very tough time at the moment and providing choice. It\u2019s a practical solution. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u002280641a83004c44eb9045c6f54960cb66\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280641a83004c44eb9045c6f54960cb66\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mariameno Kapa-Kingi\u2014the Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022 data-id=\u0022d753560287c64790b0c17acdc8cadd33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d753560287c64790b0c17acdc8cadd33\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Kia ora t\u0101tou. Choice is often the realm of the privileged. It is not something that is extended to all, generally, particularly where I come from, in Te Tai Tokerau, and that\u2019s not because we don\u2019t want it. It is because, often, we are locked out of it, and this bill, with all it\u2019s good intentions, I guess\u2014this is how I\u2019d like to speak to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003EWhen this bill was first introduced, we were told that it was about flexibility and balance. I haven\u2019t found that in any way, regardless of the work that\u2019s been put into it. The weakening of the clean vehicle standard, a policy designed to reduce emissions and prevent Aotearoa from becoming a dumping ground for inefficient vehicles rejected in countries with stricter environmental rules\u2014that purpose is worth remembering, even if you do own a ute and drive up the Brynderwyns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003EThe Government claims that these changes will make compliance easier. In reality, they create loopholes, extending the lifespans of carbon credits from three years to four years, removing restrictions on transferring credits between the new and used imports sectors, and allowing the borrowing for future overachievement beyond 2025. These measures delay real progress and undermine the integrity of the standard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard rhetoric about affordability and choice, but the facts tell a different story. Modelling shows that by 2035, these changes could result in 39,000 fewer fully electric vehicles and 19,000 fewer plug-in hybrids on our roads. That\u2019s not affordability; that\u2019s locking families into higher fuel costs and higher emissions for decades. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003EClimate change is not a distant threat; it is here, now, and it is hitting hardest. Why do Grant McCallum and I know that? Because we come from the North, and particularly if you\u2019re in Whangaroa, Whang\u0101rei, or Te Kaipara, you\u2019ll know about the flooding and all of the things that are meant to come every hundred years, but it feels like it\u2019s every five years. They\u2019re not just once-in-a-lifetime floods; they seem to be too many, too often. If you drive through K\u0101eo or Whangaroa today, you\u2019ll see the decimation of homes, farms, roads, and infrastructure. These are not isolated events; they are a reality of a warming world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003EAny legislation that prioritises short-term profits over the long-term health of our environment harms our children\u2014especially mine and Helen White\u2019s\u2014and I say that because it must be said and stated like that in this space, where we make law and then we decide on resource for our future mokopuna rising. Hence my statement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003EI think ka nui t\u0113n\u0101, Mr Speaker. I did want to make sure to stand and say that from a Te Tai Tokerau perspective, as the MP, the balance and the flexibility that was once offered is not a real thing, though I wish that it was, and I think that the Government should do better. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022be4a02462c43407e82a3fe001154c569\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be4a02462c43407e82a3fe001154c569\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the amendments recommended by the Transport and Infrastructure Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022406eea95366a41c5a1f9b47b6a5177dc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229d832caae5834c159e2ac0ac8a8c694e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000048\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u002262b423cb1a8f4952ba8bffd51b7d4f04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262b423cb1a8f4952ba8bffd51b7d4f04\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for committee stage immediately. I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill (No 2).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022af343d32e98446b89321c422fd1f83ef\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002217558c8a7f424231ac4f1ebc0c8ead10\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00223e17b77c2c8e43f09c770fff5af85ce8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e17b77c2c8e43f09c770fff5af85ce8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill (No 2). We come first to Part 1. This is the debate on clauses 4 to 9, \u201CAmendments to principal Act\u201D. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022 data-id=\u00229d385a558b07443d8385b82fd722f37f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d385a558b07443d8385b82fd722f37f\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. We\u2019re now in the committee stage of the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill (No 2), and I\u2019d just like to start by recapping some of the comments made by Minister Bishop during the second reading. I\u2019ll just acknowledge the work of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, led by the very able Andy Foster, and all those who submitted, including individuals and industry. The vehicle industry made it clear, in its submissions to the select committee, that the current standard under market conditions is proving too stringent and will result in significant costs to consumers. We don\u2019t want New Zealanders to be facing those burdens and those costs at a time like this, so we feel that some sensible changes need to be made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EThe bill that we\u2019re considering today is the first step in fixing that, and I think we all look forward to a constructive debate over the next 90 to 95 minutes. The bill itself has two parts. The first part amends the Land Transport Act 1998, and the second part makes consequential amendments to the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Regulations 2022. I thought I\u2019d outline just the four key changes that the bill makes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EFirst, it gives the Minister of Transport the ability to recommend regulations that set uniform carbon dioxide targets for vehicles. This is going to be important for weight-adjusted vehicles which give heavier vehicles easier targets, at the point where they no longer feel justified. Secondly, it extends the life of the existing emissions credits from three years to four. This is a pretty sensible change, which gives importers more time to use those credits that they earn. This rewards good performance and helps further keep those costs down on everyday working New Zealanders. The third thing the bill does is it keeps the options open for importers to borrow credits from future years. That\u2019s just a practical change that means if they fall short one year, they can make up for it in the next. That avoids charges that otherwise would be passed on to consumers\u2014again, most likely those consumers who are in the part of the market where they are seeking more affordable vehicles and can\u2019t afford a brand new shiny $80,000 hybrid or whatever it is that those at the top end of town may be able to afford. Finally, the bill allows credit trading between new and used vehicle importers. That helps importers who don\u2019t have enough credits from their own vehicles to offset charges, making it cheaper for them to meet the standard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003ENow, that\u2019s what the key changes to the bill are. The Government has also indicated it will introduce an Amendment Paper, and I believe that it\u2019s sitting on the Table right now. I\u2019ll go through the Amendment Paper now just for the sake of clarity and time. The paper does two things, and it\u2019s been well signalled in advance, I think, to the public and to the House. First, it temporarily reduces charges for 2026 and 2027. I will just outline those for the committee: for new vehicles, the top rate will drop from $67.50 to $15 per gram of carbon dioxide; for used vehicles, the top rate drops from $33.75 to $7.50 per gram of carbon dioxide. This maintains the current proportional rate for used vehicles, which is about half of the new vehicle rate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EWhat the lower charges will do in practice is they will substantially reduce the risk of unintended increases in vehicle prices caused by that combination of market conditions, coupled with the standard\u2019s current settings. Those charges will return to current levels on 1 January 2028. What it does is it provides a little bit of breathing space and time for importers, for industry, and for purchasers of both new and used imports to limit the costs being placed on them at this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EThe second thing the Amendment Paper does is it extends the expiry dates for those credits that were earned in 2023. No credits will expire before 31 December 2028. This gives credit holders with credits from 2023 an extra year to use or sell them at a market rate. Basically, it\u2019s a one-year extension. This is important because those lower charges mean lower prices for credits, because the charges effectively cap the price for which credits will be traded. Without this fix, credit holders would lose out. Officials have done some work, and they estimate that the temporary changes will reduce projected fuel savings by about $115\u00A0million. That is offset by avoiding an estimated $264\u00A0million in net charges that could be passed on to consumers in higher vehicle prices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EProjected emissions reductions will fall by 38 kilotons, but this won\u2019t affect our ability to meet the second emissions budget or the sufficiency of the second emissions reduction plan, because, of course, the emissions trading scheme (ETS) is a contained cap system. When there are fewer emissions taking place in one area, they are, obviously, offset by the ability to reduce in other areas. When emissions reductions do take place in, say, the vehicle industry, that means there are fewer carbon credits available in other industries, so the capped nature of the ETS means that, on a net basis, emissions reductions won\u2019t change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EI think this amendment is about striking a fairer balance, supporting New Zealanders upgrading to newer vehicles, which always cost less to run, supporting our climate goals while ensuring the clean vehicle standard remains practical, achievable, and equitable for both importers and consumers. It\u2019s a practical step forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003ENow, I will take the opportunity in the four minutes for this call, before we move on to questions around Part 1, just to address some of the initial amendments lodged by Arena Williams. Quite a few of them are to do with Part 1. I thought I\u2019d indicate that, at this stage, having had a good look through over the past hour or so, the Government doesn\u2019t intend to support those amendments. I can take the committee through most of them to indicate why, just so that we don\u2019t spend too much time litigating amendments that won\u2019t be supported. For example, the very first amendment to Clause 7 is an amendment which proposes to replace \u201CClean Vehicle Standard\u201D with \u201Cforegone revenue from the vehicle industry\u201D. I\u2019m not sure if that\u2019s a serious attempt at an amendment, but we won\u2019t be supporting it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EThe second amendment on this one is an amendment to clause 7. It proposes to replace \u201Cstandard\u201D with \u201Cindefinite postponement\u201D. We don\u2019t think that\u2019s a serious attempt to provide a valuable amendment to the bill. We won\u2019t be supporting it. There are some other amendments which extend out some time frames. For example, there\u2019s a further amendment to delete the entire clause 4(1). We don\u2019t agree with that. We think those clauses are vital to the operations of the bill. There is a further amendment in and around, again, clause 4(1) to insert, before the full stop, and replace \u201Cwith any measure relevant to Government policy to reduce emissions in relation to vehicle weights\u201D. We don\u2019t support that amendment, nor do we support the other amendments from Arena Williams around clauses 4(1) as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EThere are some amendments to do with the title and commencement clauses, which we\u2019ll get to at that part of the debate, that don\u2019t appear to be serious attempts and are mere criticisms of the bill. There is a further one, towards the end of the Table, that has quite technical adjustments that I think the member is, in good faith, trying to somewhat improve the bill, but we think the bill\u2019s in a good space, and we won\u2019t be supporting those amendments at this stage. With that, I will take my seat and take questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022e49810f36ad54352a618086620932ad4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e49810f36ad54352a618086620932ad4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: While that was an admirable attempt by the Minister to get his retaliation in first on these amendments, that won\u2019t curtail a full discussion of those amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec3f1da9f911493c90baf0d461cfd368\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec3f1da9f911493c90baf0d461cfd368\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana and good morning, Mr Chair. Thank you for that clarification. I know my colleague Arena Williams, on behalf of the Labour Party, has lodged a number of amendments, and I\u2019m sure that she would appreciate the opportunity, along with colleagues, to sort of work through those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EI want to just make some brief sort of top-level comments. We do not support this bill, but we do see this as the opportunity, given that we\u2019ve just come straight from the second reading into the committee of the whole House stage, to scrutinise the clauses in Part 1 and beyond, and to put to the Minister questions related to why some changes should perhaps be considered or not. While it\u2019s disappointing that the Minister has indicated that the Government\u2019s position at this stage is that they don\u2019t support those amendments, that should not, in our view, curtail the opportunity for the Opposition to still explain why it is that we think that those amendments should be considered. It wouldn\u2019t be the first time, of course, that Governments have changed their mind over the course of a committee of the whole House stage. The other thing of note is that the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper 444, in its form as presented to the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, was not made available\u2014I mean, Amendment Papers are not made available to the select committee, but the specifics of it were not something that was reflected in the select committee\u2019s report, so we do want to take an opportunity to look at that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003ELast night, I did indicate to the Minister that I had a question that I was going to raise in the committee of the whole House stage, and it is about the regulatory impact statement (RIS) that has been uplifted by members from the Table. It is clear to us that this RIS seems to be what was relied on when bill (No 1) made its way through the House. My first question to the Minister is: what is the reason as to why the regulatory impact statement that is currently on the Table\u2014and I\u2019ve just gone and had a look, and it still is the same one that we picked up last night\u2014seems to relate to a bill that was being progressed previously through the Parliament? Surely members can rely on getting information that is more up to date, and, when looking at the bill that\u2019s currently before us, what is the impact of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EThe reason as to why members would be familiar with the RIS previously is because we did have an opportunity to speak with the former Minister of Transport around what he relied on in terms of bringing bill (No 1) to the House. The RIS that\u2019s currently on the Table identifies that, actually, only industry participants were consulted with. Now, we know that we had a select committee opportunity where we heard from more than just those individuals, but it does signal that, actually, this is a bill that perhaps hasn\u2019t changed in terms of the Government\u2019s focus around it being fairly blinkered. The question to the Minister is: can he just step us through the rationale for the RIS that\u2019s currently on the Table and how that relates to the bill that\u2019s currently before us right now? I don\u2019t think it\u2019s unreasonable to expect that what is available actually takes note of the fact that there has been a passage of time. The reason why this bill is (No 2) is because the Parliament turned its mind to this issue last year, and the information that\u2019s currently before us in terms of what is the impact of this step that\u2019s being taken\u2014and these are not insignificant steps that are being taken. They will have an impact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EMy first question is a fairly basic one, really, and it\u2019s around the regulatory impact statement, because, as members know, when it comes to an opportunity to examine things, often we rely on that. It\u2019s not uncommon for regulatory impact statements to be made available throughout the whole range of a bill, but I do think it is a little bit unusual and perhaps rare that a regulatory impact statement for a bill that the Parliament has already considered and has already passed is seen as a justification as to looking at what the impacts in regulation are for this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253a223c4a973462897a52266fa8f5b3f\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly. The rates are all different.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0ed9deda2224126b40cc75618d53b1c\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: The member is right\u2014the proposed rates that are being proposed by the Government are different. They are lower rates; they have different impacts. I would suggest to the Minister that the Minister cannot simply say, \u201CWell, no, it\u2019s a similar sort of situation.\u201D When people pay less, there are impacts; when people pay more, there are impacts. Even when people pay the same amount, given the passage of time, there might be impacts. That is the first question to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022 data-id=\u0022450355f935ed4f7bb8a52803dd70d23b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022450355f935ed4f7bb8a52803dd70d23b\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m not sure which clause that question relates to, but I\u2019m advised that the updated regulatory impact statement is on the ministry\u2019s website and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254e2ddd2535b4708a7740e1615738780\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it not here?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c87ca05e3d0453f954afaaef0b2e986\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER\u003C/span\u003E: If the member wants to give me more than 3\u00BD seconds to answer his question, I\u2019ll give it a really good crack for him. I\u2019m advised that the correct versions are currently being printed on paper with ink and are on their way down for the member to read with interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022 data-id=\u0022a389b775cf4b4704afd85b4caa3eb79b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a389b775cf4b4704afd85b4caa3eb79b\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. My colleague Tangi Utikere and I have a number of questions about the policy intentions of the Government, because that has not been made clear. I think the Minister is referring to a two-page document called the short-form supplementary departmental disclosure document, which the simple contributions from officials here are, \u201CNo, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no\u201D\u2014end. I\u2019m not sure whether that seeks to address the points my colleague has raised, but we hope that the Minister will engage with this in good faith or else it will be a very long day from here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EMy first question about the Government\u2019s policy intentions around this is: how much revenue is foregone by the Government because of this decision? Is it the full $264 million that would have otherwise been raised? Does he consider the $264 million to be a tax cut for car importers; and, if so, how did he consider the different revenue-raising options around this? There would have been some other options that he could have taken. Perhaps he considered the other options available to him, like better funding for rural roads. Rural communities around New Zealand would benefit from $264\u00A0million applied to the fixing of rural roads. That was something that the Government campaigned upon, particularly around the fixing of potholes. How many potholes could the Minister fix with $264\u00A0million raised from this policy, and why was it better to return that to car importers instead of fixing rural roads?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EDid the Minister considering spending the $264 million foregone by this policy decision on public transport? How many young people would have benefited from a $264\u00A0million contribution to, say, subsidised public transport, which was the policy of the previous Government, when $264 million would be applied to, say, bus routes to children who have missed out on their school bus routes around the country, particularly in rural areas? How many children would have benefited from $264 million applied to those bus routes which they have now missed out on under this Government? What were the policy choices that the Government considered, other than giving a $264 million tax break to car importers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e29cf9f51891438fa635f32402ee96cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e29cf9f51891438fa635f32402ee96cb\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ll remind the member Arena Williams what I literally just said in my answer before, which is that the updated version of the regulatory impact statement is on its way and is available online as well. I\u2019ll get\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdc73e0ed70e4ae38a5391e84b015372\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: On its way?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c13248cb8b8413088ab6a112ce0eed2\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER\u003C/span\u003E: Again, more than 3\u00BD seconds, Mr Utikere, and I\u2019ll try my best to answer your questions, but if you interject after every time I try and answer, it\u2019s not going to get us very far.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EIn terms of the questions that are around revenue, I\u2019ll get the officials to provide some clear advice on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EIs it a tax cut for the industry? No, it\u2019s not\u2014that\u2019s an easy one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EDo we need better funding for rural roads? Well, compared to, say, the funding in the period from 2017 to 2023, I think absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EHow much money could be spent on fixing potholes? Quite a lot. This Government has invested, I think, from the top of my mind, half a billion dollars in pothole maintenance and pothole prevention, and have fixed a heck of a lot more potholes in and around the rural roads of mid-Canterbury and South Canterbury then were done, say, over a period from 2017 to 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EHow many young people could benefit from public transport? Well, in mid-Canterbury and South Canterbury, in parts of the world where rural people live, not many, because we live in far-flung destinations where we rely on, predominantly, a lot of second-hand vehicles. If you\u2019re a farm kid and you\u2019re looking to try and get to school or go to your after-school job, you rely quite heavily on second-hand vehicles, and you rely on the fact that those second-hand vehicles are affordable, because you already face very large barriers as being from an isolated rural community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s important that everyone in Parliament should support whatever we can to reduce the costs on all rural young people so that they can have the best opportunity for success, and the best opportunity to access the resources and services that are available quite readily to people who live in high-density urban areas. But, unfortunately, because rural folk are out there doing the mahi, growing the grain, feeding the cattle, building our exports, and doing the hard slog at 4 a.m. in the morning in the dairy sheds, they have to do that out in the countryside. The best thing we can do to support young people out in the regions is to support this policy, reduce the cost of their vehicles, and give them the best chance at success.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9f4d195ad1e411e858180d14572aaf6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9f4d195ad1e411e858180d14572aaf6\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. This my first call in this part of the committee of the whole House stage debate. I just wanted to highlight that this bill did not go through the full select committee process that it could have, and that was because of a decision by Government members to respond to a Minister\u2019s request to wrap up the bill early and bring it back to the House. Now, we\u2019re considering an Amendment Paper that is a substantive policy change that was only tabled late last night, and now it\u2019s going through in urgency\u2014so I think this debate is one where the Opposition does have to be able to ask a reasonable amount of questions about the policy intent of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to start with asking the Minister which industry players did they consult with in the making of this bill; and, particularly, the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper 444, which inserts a new clause 5A. My specific question, because the Minister in the second reading speech referred to the Motor Industry Association (MIA) and the Imported Motor Vehicle Industry Association (VIA), who are broad representatives of the industry, but I\u2019m wondering if the Ministry officials and the Government consulted some of the car companies, independently, that are bringing in zero-emissions vehicles, like BYD, Tesla, and I also was wondering if there was any specific consultation with Toyota.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EThe reason I ask this question is because MIA has to represent a broad range of players in the vehicle industry, and there will be some players that are particularly advantaged by this policy change and others that, we could say, are disadvantaged. The ones that are disadvantaged are the ones that are bringing in zero-emissions vehicles or who have done a lot of work, like Toyota, to actually be able to meet the targets. I\u2019m just interested to know if the consultation was limited to broad representatives of the industry or whether they took into account the impacts on those companies that are actually doing the important work of bringing in the zero-emissions vehicles and the low-emissions vehicles, and what impact that would have on them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EOne other question, because there\u2019s been a recent development this year of BYD bringing in fully electric vehicles under $30,000 in New Zealand. I wonder if\u2014you\u2019re hearing from the Minister and the Government, and certainly the Transport and Infrastructure Committee is hearing from certain players in the industry claiming that cars are going to be less affordable, but, of course, they\u2019re not considering the fact that that\u2019s only the polluting cars and we are getting more and more affordable options on the low emissions. Is this change really necessary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EFinally, the Minister and Government MPs, during the debate, have referred to alignment with other countries, particularly Australia, and I\u2019m wondering if the Minister can tell us what the equivalent penalties are or would be in Australia, and how that compares to the fees that are laid out on Amendment Paper 444 in new clause 5A, subsections 2(b)(i) and (ii). It\u2019s from 1 January 2026 to 1 January 2028\u2014the fees that are proposed in that section, and the ones in new clause 8A, also on the Amendment Paper; same issue, it\u2019s subsections 2(b)(i) and (ii): how will this align us with Australia? What will the difference be between the penalties faced by importers who are bringing in higher emissions vehicles above the target in Australia, and how will that compare to New Zealand\u2019s should this Amendment Paper 444 be passed today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022 data-id=\u00226be200623cf94dabb09a59a3f1a2d3e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226be200623cf94dabb09a59a3f1a2d3e5\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E A couple of questions in that one. Who in the industry was consulted? I think as Minister Bishop outlined in his second reading speech, yes, the Motor Industry Association (MIA) and the Imported Motor Vehicle Industry Association were both consulted. Of course, MIA represent BYD and Toyota. Every industry player also had the opportunity to submit during the select committee process and have their views heard and incorporated into the departmental report. I\u2019m advised that no individual car companies were consulted, as that could be seen to confer specific market advantage during consultation so it wouldn\u2019t have been appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EAs to the question around why the proposal has been brought back now, it is because the changes are required to be in place by 1 January 2026, and due to the mechanisms or the process of legislation in the House, we have to have this done by Christmas, effectively, so that\u2019s why it\u2019s back in the time that it\u2019s back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll get some advice on the penalties from the officials. The previous speaker, Julie Anne Genter, asked some questions around\u2014I think she read out a bit of paper and then she said the word \u201CNo\u201D about 12 times\u2014I think she\u2019s having flashbacks. I think the issue is that she was reading the departmental disclosure statement and not the regulatory impact statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EIn terms of the question around how much revenue is foregone by the Crown, well, the way the system works is that the charges are placed\u2014well, they\u2019re not placed into the National Land Transport Fund; they\u2019re held in accounts to offset the credits. That\u2019s the answer to that question there. Oh, and I\u2019ve actually had a last-minute run of advice provided to me. I\u2019m advised, in terms of the question around penalties, the equivalent Australian penalty is AUD$50. Ours will be NZD$15. Apparently, it\u2019s $50 imposed by the regulatory and $100 imposed by the courts for Australia. That\u2019s the answer to that one there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022 data-id=\u0022150bee6e33704ac3914a2a592bea8463\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022150bee6e33704ac3914a2a592bea8463\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Look, I thank the Associate Minister of Transport for his answers, but there is not a lot of clarity that\u2019s been given around the information that\u2019s currently available before the committee. Members, particularly when we\u2019re in urgency, rely on what is on the Table to inform the contributions that are to be made in terms of the passage of the legislation. My colleague Arena Williams has referenced papers that are on the Table, because that\u2019s all that\u2019s there. The Minister talks about this regulatory impact statement (RIS), but where is it? The only\u2014oh, he holds it up. Well, is that the RIS that\u2019s dated finalised 25 June\u00A02024? That\u2019s the first question for the Minister, because if it is, then that is the RIS that is being used for bill No. 2. The Minister is handing it to\u2014is it the one that\u2019s 25 June 2024? I mean, that would be the interesting thing because that\u2019s the one that we\u2019ve got there. If not, which one is he referring to? His has got a watermark stamped all over it\u2014not something that we\u2019ve got this morning. Those are real issues around what\u2019s available to the committee as we\u2019ve started this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264a6d413df424cecb1dfdfd746188ca0\u0022\u003EDr Tracey McLellan\u003C/span\u003E: Shoddy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df55742e3ad944aa9ba29f95ec1b986b\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: It is shoddy indeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EThe question around the policy intent and objectives\u2014and the Minister has talked about potholes, he\u2019s talked about rural buses, he\u2019s talked about public transport, he hasn\u2019t talked about road cones, but probably that\u2019s something the Government don\u2019t want to talk about at the moment. But this policy intent is really, really important, because he\u2019s talked about rural bus routes. The $264 million could be utilised in other areas. Why is it that the Government are choosing not to do that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EI see that the Minister of Education, Erica Stanford, is here in the Chamber right now. Perhaps she would like to take a call around whether she thinks that the $264 million not being spent on the rural bus routes, that she cancelled in places like Ashurst and also Rongotea and other places, could be better utilised. I hazard a guess to suggest that she won\u2019t because she\u2019s remained silent in that space. But this is about prioritisation: the revenue that\u2019s been generated, the $264 million, could be spent in other areas. So, Minister Stanford, are you prepared to take a call and indicate whether you think that, actually, this is good money spent or saved, and that maybe it could be used to save school bus routes that you cancelled?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003ENow, these are real considerations, and I think, in terms of bringing this back to the policy objectives and intent of this bill, members of this\u2014it is not unreasonable to expect that when this committee stage commences and the Associate Minister of Transport refers to a regulatory impact statement, that we have it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e0d7157f8544f55a833cf72146a361c\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, he thinks he\u2019s got a new one; he doesn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222494bdf023b54f20bfe5d4fd5b0601db\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: I think the Minister has a new one. Now, prior to commencing\u2014[Member is handed a document by Chamber staff]. Oh look, we\u2019ve suddenly got one\u2014thank you, sir, for this. Now, this in itself creates a little bit of an issue because we now have a regulatory impact statement that has a date of 4 November 2025. Why was this not put on the Table?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c422447af22e4c89a5e5b07cb11295e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccc3096b87a543f69bf23e351ac224e7\u0022\u003ESteve Abel\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the date today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acfc7856bb20469e89e1147cd45c0d09\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the date today according to the clock is 18\u00A0November\u2014well, actually, most people in New Zealand think it\u2019s the 20th\u2014because we\u2019re in urgency, one of the quirks of this place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EBut my question to the Minister is: when this particular bill came into committee, why was the RIS that we think the Minister is relying on, dated 4 November 2025\u2014why was that not included for members to be able to collect? Now, we accept that in urgency there are some things that have to be rushed through. We also expect that when a Minister stands up to talk about his overall objectives and what he wants to achieve in progressing this on behalf of the Government, the information available to members to scrutinise, to question, to hold the Government to account, and to come up with some other possible changes\u2014that the information to be relied upon is also there. That is the first question for the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022 data-id=\u0022d60d79e486834004bcee64580bf94185\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d60d79e486834004bcee64580bf94185\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I think the member needs to go back and do his history, because when the Labour Party introduced this policy\u2014whenever it was, back in the last Government\u2014they were quite clear that it was not intended to raise revenue, and it\u2019s not designed to raise revenue. I don\u2019t know where Mr Utikere\u2019s magicking up his $264 million from, but it\u2019s not from this policy, because that\u2019s not how the policy works. If he wants to go and campaign on borrowing another $264 million, he\u2019s welcome to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EOf course, they didn\u2019t do too much in the way of supporting rural New Zealand and rural schools under the previous Government. If he wants to talk about school bus routes, I suggest he has a sit down with Chris Hipkins, who can take him through the process that Mr Hipkins undertook as Minister of Education with school bus route reviews. He might find quite an uncomfortable conversation with Mr Hipkins. In the previous Government, when a few reviews were under way, then, all of a sudden, an election came around and, oh, what happens? We might just softly, softly put that on hold until it kicks off under way. Maybe Mr Utikere can get his questions from a previous Minister of Education rather than the one that\u2019s in the Chamber, who\u2019s not responsible for anything under this bill\u2014because, under this bill, we\u2019re talking about the clean vehicle standard, which is quite a long way away from issues like rural bus routes and road cones. If the member wants to get into a conversation around road cones, he should go for a trip up to Auckland and have a chat to Mayor Wayne Brown, who is a strong advocate for eliminating most of those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EIn terms of the regulatory impact statement (RIS), I\u2019m glad Mr Utikere didn\u2019t even need to stretch his legs and had the RIS hand-delivered to him. He is very welcome to peruse that. Of course, the RIS has been available online for quite a while now. I\u2019m sure he\u2019s a very busy man, and he\u2019s very diligent, and maybe accessing it online wasn\u2019t a high priority\u2014but he\u2019s got it now. It\u2019s on the Table. He can have a great look through it. Of course, the RIS isn\u2019t part of the bill. When you\u2019re scrutinising legislation in the committee of the whole House stage, we are supposed to talk about what\u2019s actually in the bill, so I\u2019m looking forward to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269c4dda91aa9492c8515a253a9540f06\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I take the next call\u2014again, both parties are certainly broadening the scope of this discussion, and it won\u2019t continue to widen. We just need to now bring it back to something resembling what\u2019s in front of us here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022 data-id=\u00221bb3b16fbe31439f800e02338e11146b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221bb3b16fbe31439f800e02338e11146b\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank you, Minister Meager, for what can only be described as a somewhat lacklustre response to some questions around policy intent. I understand the position that the Minister\u2019s in and can feel somewhat sympathetic that, you know, when one inherits the role of trying to sell something without all the relevant information provided to the Opposition, there\u2019s not a lot to go on. But I don\u2019t think that we\u2019ve received sufficient clarity about the policy intent and those policy objectives that sort of underpin this bill, hence the fact that the responses to date have been somewhat flat, for lack of a better word.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EThe Minister in his previous response, in an attempt to perhaps draw on some local knowledge and paint this bill in so far as how it might affect rural communities, raised a couple of points that I just do think are worth going back to, because I do sympathise with the concept of affordability. Certainly on this side of the Chamber, that is our number one concern at the moment, the pressures that people are facing and that households are facing in terms of household bills, and fuel costs are certainly one of those that are driving the cost of living crisis, the real cost of living pinch points that many families are feeling at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EWhilst the Minister talked about having affordable cars in rural areas\u2014and, again, forgive me Minister; I haven\u2019t had a chance to have a look through this regulatory impact statement properly. One can only have a quick skim read whilst listening to other people talking; it\u2019s a little bit distracting, but the policy intent that the Minister has laid out in his response to the first three or four questions this morning hasn\u2019t really elucidated on what the thinking was behind or what the analysis was behind futureproofing some of those affordability considerations. It\u2019s one thing to be able to afford a second-hand car in today\u2019s market, but we also have a responsibility to ensure that that second-hand market updates and becomes cleaner but also more cost-efficient and cheaper to purchase those cars. We really run the risk of being the dumping ground for an old, expensive fleet of cars if these types of measures continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EI\u2019m sure\u2014absolutely positive\u2014that the Minister would have considered those considerations or made those considerations whilst working out what the policy objective here is. On the surface, without that information, if the Minister\u2019s not going to provide a little bit of oomph with regard to that policy intent, we can only assume, and we\u2019re left to assume, that it\u2019s just a quick and cheap, cheap and cheerful, cheap and dirty method by which to keep importers happy in the short term and leave this looming question for someone else to resolve. I would appreciate if the Minister could just provide a little bit more background as a starting point for us to have a much clearer understanding of what the policy intent is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0a4b4279bf9476a86cb37d7d8167a24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0a4b4279bf9476a86cb37d7d8167a24\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Madam Chair. I\u2019ll just round-off the regulatory impact statement (RIS) questions. Of course, if members had looked at the Amendment Paper that has been on the Table for quite a while, on the back of the Amendment Paper is a little URL, and with the URL is a link to the RIS. I\u2019m sure that may have skipped members\u2019 attentions because there\u2019s a lot of paper to read, but if members pick up the papers and read them thoroughly, they will find everything that they need. Of course, there is no requirement under the Standing Orders to table a RIS, and I look forward to that suggestion being made to the Standing Orders Committee by the Labour Party in a supplementary submission\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225773eaab008a474da28bd9edd9706b45\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: This is an all-stages change. It hasn\u2019t been to a select committee. No need to be so rude.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fbfd682fdfc4dca913d946467b49735\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER\u003C/span\u003E: Because it probably is quite good practice. The member interjects that this is an all-stages change\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fd475933c394bdeac4bd1781684c2d4\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise. It\u2019s a significant change at this stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f934da5c3b8401f9cc445aa29071f55\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s actually not. We\u2019ve just come from a select committee and had the second reading. The member also interjects and says, \u201CIt\u2019s a significant amendment.\u201D Well, that\u2019s correct\u2014but the whole point of the committee of the whole House stage is to be able to provide a chance for the committee of the whole House to make amendments to the bill. I\u2019m not sure how long this practice has been in place, but we\u2019re about hundreds of years under the Westminster system. Again, if the member is not happy with that programme and that system, she can make a submission to the very receptive and, I thought, polite Standing Orders Committee, who are actively considering how the House runs at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EAnyway, on to Tracey McLellan\u2019s very, very good, I thought, question around the policy intent\u2014although she was quite disparaging of my attempts to answer in the first instance. I thought that was quite unfair. Her question around the policy intent\u2014what is the intent of the policy? Well, without wanting to expand the scope of the debate too far and, paraphrasing in my own limited mental capacity at this time of the morning, the intent of the policy is to reduce the costs of vehicles imposed by the previous Government on everyday working Kiwis. That\u2019s the intent of the policy, and I think, once we pass it in the next 45 minutes, it will be implemented well and truly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c422447af22e4c89a5e5b07cb11295e0\u0022 data-id=\u0022ada318396a744c279cf9f5fc7a46970a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c422447af22e4c89a5e5b07cb11295e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ada318396a744c279cf9f5fc7a46970a\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I presume, Madam Chair, that you may have been watching from outside the Chamber, but I wanted to draw your attention to the fact that the regulatory impact statement (RIS) has just been introduced to the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aaa7d88c67a449e5a03fef737c465f36\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it\u2019s just been introduced to the Chamber, but I understand it\u2019s been in a link and it\u2019s been available for a period of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c422447af22e4c89a5e5b07cb11295e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227423854206614b19811db2e2f4d85dfa\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re in urgency, obviously, dealing with a huge volume of legislation and there is, rightly, an expectation that something like this RIS would be available to us in physical form in the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff7f9ae05a904fd7a3c00243ebbe206a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding is that it has been available. It hasn\u2019t been on the Table but we also have had a response to this issue, so I feel like it has been covered off. It may not be ideal from some of the members\u2019 perspectives, but we can\u2019t carry on debating that issue all morning because it\u2019s been covered off by the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c422447af22e4c89a5e5b07cb11295e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d75be91ee7a84e569152d3836e85b8d8\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287785c5916b5439cacb258c92229f628\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: You can talk to the RIS\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c422447af22e4c89a5e5b07cb11295e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd721d4ec24c48f9859de47a9606ded3\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: OK, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aec925954eb64583b054dd264ce3d7a3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but how it got here and why it\u2019s here has been explained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c422447af22e4c89a5e5b07cb11295e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022928bd225b554423689a4b9acd1915f9c\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, you\u2019ve just clarified what I really was wanting to ask. Given that our ability to talk to the RIS would be useful\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285089ad0e40d42eb96a46d0cfb05af16\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, you can talk to the RIS.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c422447af22e4c89a5e5b07cb11295e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7aecc3c07b6405fa98e2272893c013e\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and the Minister made a point of the RIS being the significant part of the case for the Government\u2019s policy position. I\u2019m just wanting to clarify specifically in terms of the policy objectives: given the essential purpose of the legislation and that its original intent was to assist in the reduction of carbon dioxide emissions, how did the Government evaluate the impact that this policy would have on targets for reducing carbon dioxide emissions, which is covered in section 175, which is being repealed? I note that in the RIS, on page 7, one of the more striking graphs shows the average carbon dioxide performance of all new vehicle types in a blue line and the target in a red line, and at the point where the Clean Car Discount was cancelled, those lines crossover and the emissions profile of the vehicles falls below the targets. How did the Government take into account, with this new amendment, the impact on our overall targets around carbon dioxide emissions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c422447af22e4c89a5e5b07cb11295e0\u0022\u003EMy second question is: in terms of our balance of payments and the cost to New Zealanders, if the Minister and the Government are concerned about the cost of vehicular transport to New Zealanders, to what extent did the Minister evaluate the impact of our dependency as a nation on the whole on petroleum imports? To clarify this, looking at the latest economic fact sheet for the week ending 14\u00A0November, currently our three largest goods imports in the year to September 2025 are mechanical machinery at $11.6 billion, followed closely by petroleum end products at $9.6 billion, followed by vehicles at $8.7\u00A0billion. Of our three biggest goods imports, two of them are petroleum and vehicles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c422447af22e4c89a5e5b07cb11295e0\u0022\u003EDid the Minister or the Government take into account the extent to which we are subject to the vicissitudes of the overseas price of oil and petroleum products? We have never produced domestic oil that has been consumed by vehicles in this country. Did he consider the extent to which he is locking New Zealanders into an ongoing dependence on that expensive imported petroleum, instead of moving our fleet to electric vehicles that are fuelled by domestically produced electricity, which is 85 percent\u2014or even 95 percent on a good day\u2014from renewable sources, not from fossil fuel sources? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c422447af22e4c89a5e5b07cb11295e0\u0022\u003ETo what extent has he evaluated the opportunity that is lost in decarbonising our transport system and the real cost-savings that that means for New Zealanders at a personal level, a household level, but also for us as a whole country, because if more of our transport fleet is electrified, then more of the fuel by which our nation is powered is domestically generated renewable energy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c422447af22e4c89a5e5b07cb11295e0\u0022\u003EThe other question I have is how much of this new fleet and second-hand fleet are actually the practical vehicles that Grant McCallum refers to\u2014the utes that people drive up through the Brynderwyns to Northland\u2014and are actually impacted versus what I colloquially call the sort of urban wanker-mobile fleet, which is a big problem we have in T\u0101maki-makau-rau Auckland? We have these monstrous Raptor/Rhino vehicles that are more dangerous, because if they hit somebody it\u2019s fatal, and they are also obnoxious in terms of the space they take up on the road visibly. They impact on people driving normal vehicles. What sort of vehicles does this benefit in terms of those classes of cars that are actually a necessity to have in rural areas? But I can assure you, having gone to the High Country in the South Island last year, that farmers are not driving those Raptors and Rhinos; they\u2019re driving the practical Toyota Hilux and the like. How much of the impacted fleet is those overpriced, oversized urban wanker-mobiles versus the actual tradie, farmer, practical vehicles that no one contests that people need and use? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7928c2c10e84f13b618eaa51e783b2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7928c2c10e84f13b618eaa51e783b2f\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m not sure if the Greens are opening up an Eastern Front against urban bankers or whatever it was that Mr Abel said\u2014I didn\u2019t quite hear them properly from back there\u2014coupled with their other front against the rural part of the economy. I\u2019m sure there\u2019s probably someone left for them to not have a war with, in the coming future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll backtrack in terms of the reverse order of questions. If Mr Abel doesn\u2019t like the Rhinos or whatever it is he called them rolling around Auckland, some good news is on the way. One is that he doesn\u2019t have to buy them. Two is that, with the new time-of-use congestion charging legislation coming into place, individuals will be able to make better decisions about whether or not they do take those vehicles in and around parts of Auckland that Mr Abel doesn\u2019t want to see them in. Thirdly, on that, with the shift from road-user charges to all vehicles\u2014and I\u2019m assuming that some of these obnoxious gas-guzzling monstrosities that Mr Abel doesn\u2019t like will be both diesel- and petrol-fuelled\u2014they will be paying more for the impact on the roads that they do have. All of those initiatives by the current Government are actually favourable to Mr Abel\u2019s point and, hopefully, will be supported by him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EIf we then go to the issue around what was looked at in terms of the impact on the balance of payments: I\u2019m advised that it was looked at generally in terms of the impact of lost fuel savings, and as I outlined at the start, this is approximately $115 million, but that is more than offset by the $264\u00A0million in charges that will not be passed on to hard-working everyday New Zealanders who get up every morning, get into their vehicle, clean our offices, stack our supermarket shelves, work in our pack-houses, and generally just want to get on with life in their second-hand, low-cost vehicle\u2014because if you come from a part of the world where, like some of us, we didn\u2019t have a car until we were seven or eight, you\u2019re very grateful just to have any vehicle. To avoid lumping on an additional $5,000 or $6,000 cost on those vehicles, I think it\u2019s a good thing to support working New Zealanders. This is something that everyone in the Chamber should be supporting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003ENow, Mr Abel talked about reliance on fuel and gas. Well, then, I look forward to him supporting our efforts to maintain our domestic fuel and energy security in terms of repealing the oil and gas ban: investing in liquified natural gas; making sure that we have greater fuel security and storage requirements at our airports and in our fuel facilities; making sure that we have good import controls for our fuel import terminals, including the one down in PrimePort Timaru, which is a great source of opportunity and employment for the people of South Canterbury. Of course, I look forward to the support of the fast-track legislation and Resource Management Act (RMA) reform, which will fundamentally revolutionise how we can create, produce, invest in renewable energy all across the country, whether that is data centres fuelled by solar power down in Southland, or whether that is the many, many offerings of solar farms in and around the Mackenzie Country, which take a discreet, packaged-away parcel of land and produce solar energy that could generate power for tens of thousands of homes if it weren\u2019t for the prohibitive framework of the current RMA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EI very much look forward to the Greens supporting all efforts to increase the amount of renewable energy up and down New Zealand, whether that is solar, whether it is hydro, whether it is tidal or whether that is offshore wind, whether that is bioenergy, geothermal\u2014whatever it takes, I look forward to that support over the coming years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003ENow, there are a couple of other questions that were outstanding that I\u2019ve just had put in front of me. A question from a while back: was the analysis behind this futureproof? Of course it was, because these measures aren\u2019t temporary. The current charges return on 1 January 2028 and, in the meantime, the Ministry of Transport is undertaking a full review of the scheme, with a report to Cabinet due in 2026. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EWhat is the impact on the targets? Well, we all know, and we\u2019ve had this traversed many, many times in this House: vehicle emissions are contained within the emissions trading scheme (ETS). The ETS is a closed-cap system; it has a sinking lid on emissions over time. Where emissions drop in one sector, they are offset by emissions in the other sector. Because there are caps, if industries decide to exceed their emissions, they either have to pay for them through New Zealand Units or they have to pay a very significant fine. It is unlawful to breach the emissions caps, so in terms of emissions reductions, whether you reduce them in the vehicle industry sector\u2014whether you reduce them in waste energy, whether you reduce them in heat energy processes\u2014it is a cap system, so when you push down here, it pushes up here. But overall, on a net basis, it won\u2019t make a difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4dde2dd52084a82a16c0bcd69360601\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4dde2dd52084a82a16c0bcd69360601\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to call Arena Williams. I\u2019m looking for specific clauses and specific questions now please, rather than speeches. That\u2019s not a reflection on this member. It\u2019s just that we\u2019re getting\u2014it\u2019s less than two pages, this particular part of the bill, and I\u2019d just like to see people referring to the clauses and having questions around the clauses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022 data-id=\u00227b61652fd7074d98adc95c0524b0c33c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b61652fd7074d98adc95c0524b0c33c\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and welcome to the chair. You can tell that people are exercised about this. We\u2019re also into, I think, the twentieth hour of urgency, so there is a little bit of tetchiness in the Chamber\u2014but let\u2019s change that. Let\u2019s get enthusiastic about this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EI want to speak to the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper 444 now. This is the guts of the policy here. This is the clause that enables the $264 million tax cut to car dealers. I want to ask him about his choices around how big that cut would be. The options that I understand he\u2019s considered are the status quo, which would leave it at $67; halving that to $33 as the top charge; halving that again to $15, which is the option he\u2019s gone for here; or zeroing it. The options that I\u2019m really asking about are $30, $15, and zero, because, as I understand it, the Government\u2019s policy intention could have landed on any of those and, really, what I\u2019m asking here is about the trade-offs between those options.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EIf the top charge were double what it is now, I want to understand how the industry would have been impacted by that and the kind of vehicle mix that we would have seen being imported. Given that there is a lower consumer demand at the moment for electric vehicles (EVs), did that play into the choice between $15 and $30 being the top charge and the expectation of economic conditions either improving or stabilising? That\u2019s not information that was made available to the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, because the committee didn\u2019t consider the difference between say $30 as the top charge and $15 as the top charge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EThe reason I raise this is because we saw a very open-minded and collegial discussion of the different road-user charges that applied to plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs) in that committee when the Government was considering a bill very similar to this a year and a half ago. The committee actually arrived at a different rate that would be set there\u2014at, essentially, halving what was the original rate but doubling what the Government\u2019s suggestion would have been. A committee of like-minded and reasonable MPs in that room came to a different view of the appropriate rate there, so I wonder whether the committee would consider a movement up to that rate of $30 that, in my view, trying to think through this reasonably, would also reach the Government\u2019s policy intention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EA particular part of the Government\u2019s policy intention that I want to draw the committee\u2019s attention to is in the regulatory impact statement, on page 3. It says that the best way to address that demand issue created by economic conditions at the moment, and by the demand for EVs being low, is to make the settings more flexible\u2014that\u2019s the one-year extension. We will return to the one-year extension, but that\u2019s not in Amendment Paper 444. It also says, \u201Cto adjust the targets to levels that are achievable and do not result in high levels of net charge.\u201D That $30 top rate would do that. It would also mean that there was a greater level of stability within the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EStability is a stated goal of the Government in this policy. It would have been in line with the expectations of the industry, and that stability goal is really important here\u2014particularly for the relative market share of some small importers as opposed to some larger importers. The Minister will note that I have made a number of amendments that are particularly designed to protect the interests of those smaller importers. What I think we would all agree around the Chamber is that we don\u2019t want to have the unintended impact, by setting the rate where it is currently, of disadvantaging smaller importers over the larger ones. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EYou would have heard, Madam Chair, in an answer the Minister gave to my colleague Steve Abel, that the Minister didn\u2019t consult with particular importers. Any given importer had the chance, he said, to be able to present to the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, but they didn\u2019t make that information available to the select committee, because it is sensitive to them. As I understand it, the Minister will well know that smaller importers are at the sharp end of this change; there will be some market impacts for them that make it harder for them to be profitable relative to their larger counterparts. I want to test with him whether that $30 top rate charge is an appropriate charge, and whether he also considered a zero rate and what that would have meant for the relative market share of larger and smaller importers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022 data-id=\u0022cac5bd304b224dacba0c0c0f9870d12d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cac5bd304b224dacba0c0c0f9870d12d\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I was just checking whether my colleague Tom Rutherford had an insightful contribution to make, and I thought I\u2019d give him a crack. Just in terms of a couple of prior questions I just wanted to tick off, there was a question previously around carbon dioxide emissions, and I just wanted to\u2014for completeness, because I did sit down before and didn\u2019t quite get to finish that off. An emissions trading scheme (ETS) is always a difficult system, but it\u2019s a closed system. There are a certain number of carbon credits available, so, for example, I\u2019m advised that this policy may well result in 83 kilotons of emissions additional into this particular industry. Now, of course that is the equivalent\u2014if my maths is right\u2014to 83,000 New Zealand Units (NZUs). Those are, therefore, NZUs available for other emitters to purchase.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a closed system. You\u2019ve got a capped number of emissions that you can emit over a five-year period, the carbon budgets. If Governments want to go harder and faster on that, they can. They can change those caps. If they want to reduce emissions more quickly by reducing the number of emissions in the system, they can do that. They can buy credits; they can shred them. That all has trade-offs and balances because that drives up the cost of carbon credits. They are the trade-offs that we\u2019re all talking about here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EThis goes to the member\u2019s point around what the options were and what the top charge could be. Well, if you double the top charge, you\u2019re just doubling what the importers have to pay and pass on to their customers. It\u2019s all a trade-off in terms of how you make the system continue to work as best it can in a difficult and, we think, relatively unworkable system. You\u2019ve still got to make the system work by having some sort of credit and penalty, but, at the same time, if you leave it up to where it was, you\u2019re going to be hitting consumers with an incredibly high cost\u2014people who, generally, are not in a position to pay that cost. In terms of a system that\u2019s supposed to be supporting working New Zealanders and the people who are out there actually generating the income that we need to pay for our nurses and our doctors and our schools and our hospitals\u2014we should be supporting them, and we shouldn\u2019t be putting these costs on them, particularly in a situation where the ETS does most of the heavy lifting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s, essentially, the answer as to why the rate is set as it is. Look, there are arguments both ways\u2014whether it should be higher or whether it should be lower\u2014depending on what your value set is and what your priorities are, but the Government has set them at the rate suggested in the Amendment Paper. We think $15 provides meaningful relief for importers and consumers while still incentivising compliance with the standard. I\u2019m also advised that the Motor Industry Association were the ones that proposed $15 as a balance to balance the interest of their members who held excess credits against those who face net charges. It\u2019s a relatively good middle point that we think hits the right spot. If members are interested, there is more analysis in the regulatory impact statement on pages 13 to 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00229c7fbf92632d4d779986f07d42d7aae5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c7fbf92632d4d779986f07d42d7aae5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re getting very close. I\u2019m going to take a call from Tangi Utikere; I see he\u2019s been writing furiously during the course of this last little section. But I will indicate that we are getting very close. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022 data-id=\u0022f810a22c94294222a6acdb6fc87e3903\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f810a22c94294222a6acdb6fc87e3903\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to ask the Minister some questions in relation to clause 4. This is the clause that, basically, removes the ability for regulations to be targeted, around the vehicle weights being adjusted. The proposal from the Government is to basically cancel it so there would not be any criteria in that particular space. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EMy first question for the Minister is: given that heavier vehicles emit more carbon dioxide, why is it that there hasn\u2019t been, really, any thought around a gradual approach to weight adjustment\u2014i.e., not just a blanket ruling-out but maybe some sort of a transitional phase dependent on weights? Now, that might be, perhaps, more difficult if it\u2019s in the lighter fleet, as opposed to not, but given that the focus of this is around taking our climate change responsibility seriously, what consideration, if any, was given to having some sort of gradual approach to that? The other part of that, of course, is what modelling supports the change and whether any specific advice around that was sought.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EThere is a tabled amendment in my colleague Arena Williams\u2019 name that has not been referred to in the committee this morning. I actually think one of the interesting things, if the Government is open to actually looking at it, is what the impact of these changes is going to be. Whilst the Minister and the Government have said that there will be a review opportunity\u2014that that might be at some stage in the future\u2014there is really no scope defined around what that looks like. What Ms Williams\u2019 tabled amendment very clearly does is seek to insert a new clause 4A, which she suggests is titled \u201CAnnual impact assessment of clean vehicle standard\u201D. Now, this would be a new clause that would, effectively, require the Minister\u2014and there is no time frame, but there kind of is; I mean, it\u2019s about practicality, right? It\u2019s around \u201Cas soon as practicable\u201D after the end of a financial year, which does make sense in terms of aligning that with Budgets. It would require the Minister to turn their mind to preparing and publishing a report that would be required to contain a number of different aspects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003ENow, we haven\u2019t actually touched on this yet today, and they are things like, \u201CWell, what is the actual capture of volume of used vehicles that are actually being imported into New Zealand?\u201D This is a bill that does provide some differential between new imports and used imports. It might be all well and good to say, \u201CWell, all that information is contained elsewhere\u201D, but what we\u2019re talking about here is having a centralised opportunity for the Minister, as the Government\u2019s appointee, to present to the Parliament a form of accountability on an annual basis to cover off a few things\u2014not just actually the volume of used vehicles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s really important, because, if we\u2019re looking at trying to shift the dial on having households move into lower-emitting vehicles, one of the key incentives for that is ensuring that the used vehicle fleet is accessible and that there are a larger number of low-emitting vehicles that form part of that fleet. Having an opportunity to annually account to the Parliament\u2014and that paints a picture\u2014we think is actually a good move. Alongside that, consideration around the changes in not just how old these vehicles are but the average age, worked out across the entire fleet, and specific to the light fleet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EThe other two points that Ms Williams\u2019, in her Amendment Paper, touches on is this issue of retail affordability. This is a real concern, and this is what has been driving a lot of the submissions that the select committee heard as well from importers. It\u2019s their view that the uptake is actually, post the Government\u2019s decision to get rid of the Clean Car Discount, actually not serving as an incentive for people to be able to access the market. If that is the case, what metrics are there to ensure that retail affordability is something\u2014it\u2019s not something that we\u2019ve actually talked about. The Minister might not think that\u2019s a good idea. OK, that\u2019s fine, but it would be helpful to hear from him none the less.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EOf course, the final bit there is around the impact or effect that that would have specifically on M\u0101ori and Pacific communities. Why? We know that they are generally parts of our communities\u2014and members across the Chamber will know this themselves\u2014that find it very difficult to be able to make sure they are a positive stat when it comes to low-emitting vehicles, because of the accessibility and the equity issues. The question to the Minister is: how does he see that ability to capture all that information in one place and to provide that through a vehicle to be accountable to the Parliament?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022 data-id=\u00223f65a54fbed54eb48d1faa05096f90db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f65a54fbed54eb48d1faa05096f90db\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I couldn\u2019t quite discern many questions from that, but I\u2019ll address the one at the top around clause 4. I think the member misunderstands how the clause works. It actually allows the Minister to set a weight-adjusted rate or a uniform rate. Currently, if you just set a strict uniform weight, that would be harder for heavy vehicles to meet, and I think that was the intention of the previous Government\u2019s policy. Clause 4 actually gives the Minister the flexibility to do one or the other, and so I think that\u2019s what he actually wants and that\u2019s what the clause achieves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EIn terms of an amendment to require a Minister to review or report\u2014well, as I\u2019ve mentioned before, there is already a report due in 2026 and, as I thumb my way through many of Arena Williams\u2019 amendments, I note that with regard to the amendment lodged at 10:50:07, the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) currently already publish monthly reporting on the volume of charges and credits, and the Ministry of Transport publishes information on the volume of new registrations. If we go to 10:50:11, the Ministry of Transport publishes vehicle registrations, including both fuel types. If we go to\u2014I\u2019m just skipping along because the rest of them aren\u2019t actually consistent with Government policy, so they would be rejected outright. If we go to the one at 10:50:21, all of the information sought in that quarterly publication is published monthly by the NZTA. If we go\u2014and we\u2019re still going; they\u2019re not consistent with Government policy for the rest of these ones\u2014to 10:50:25, again, that information is already published by the NZTA. Then, for the one at 10:50:28\u2014no, that\u2019s on the title. I thought that there was one more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EEssentially, the essence of what I\u2019m getting to is that much of what the member has suggested or wants in her amendments is already published by various agencies, and, of course, Ministers of any stripe, any kind, any colour, or of any age or vintage can issue a report or do a review on any piece of legislation they want at any time. If they want to spend their time running through working groups and reports and reviews and things like that, then they can do that, but what we\u2019ll do is we\u2019ll change the legislation to make it easier for working New Zealanders to buy a car, get to work, do the job, live their life, and have a happy future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002216b09597d365451ab2108cfb57d481f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216b09597d365451ab2108cfb57d481f2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m just going to take a question from the Hon Julie Anne Genter, the transport spokesperson for the Greens\u2014and it will be related to a clause and a question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022 data-id=\u002237273f4d4a9042648f966fb1493f7b66\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237273f4d4a9042648f966fb1493f7b66\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E Yes\u2014thank you very much, Madam Chair. We put forward a range of tabled amendments this morning, so I just want to clarify that most of those are proposed amendments to Amendment Paper 444, which is the Minister of Transport\u2019s Amendment Paper, which, as I understand it\u2014and maybe I\u2019ll just clarify with the Minister in the chair, James Meager\u2014was tabled yesterday in the evening. That\u2019s my understanding. The chair of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee was saying that it had been around longer than that, so I\u2019m just wondering: did the chair of the select committee get earlier access to the Amendment Paper, because we only got it last night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EAnyway, so it\u2019s specifically new clauses 5A and 8A, and we\u2019ve proposed a range of changes to the fees, and so that\u2019s particularly from 1 January 2026. My question\u2014my main question, aside from when was the Amendment Paper tabled and when did the chair get access to it\u2014is: the Minister has repeatedly, in this debate, referred to this policy improving affordability of cars for low-income New Zealanders. I just wondered if the Minister had done any distributional analysis of who these changes were most likely to affect, because by my calculations, the changes in the new clause 5A in Amendment Paper 444, new subsection 2(b)(i) and (ii), what they show is that with the change in the fees, the benefit to the new vehicle industry who are bringing in polluting vehicles above the target is twice that of the used vehicle sector imports. That means that, actually, there\u2019s a disproportionate benefit to new vehicle importers. Low-income or even medium-income New Zealanders are not buying brand new vehicles, so if the policy intent of the bill is to help those on low or medium income, I want to know: why is the change proposed in the Amendment Paper giving double the benefit, or tax break, really\u2014penalty break\u2014to brand new vehicle imports as opposed to second-hand vehicle imports?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EThroughout the debate and throughout the regulatory impact statement, the problem that\u2019s been laid out has been focused on access to the second-hand vehicle market. We have a lot of brand new vehicles now available at affordable price points that are low-emissions or zero-emissions, therefore below the target, but there\u2019s a disproportionate benefit given to new vehicles. I just want to make this point in this debate\u2014maybe the Minister could listen and understand the point and respond to the question\u2014if we want to increase the supply of second-hand, low-emissions vehicles or zero-emissions vehicles\u2014electric vehicles (EVs)\u2014then we\u2019re not going to do it by importing second-hand vehicles directly from Japan; we\u2019re going to do it by importing more brand new EVs here and those being sold on second-hand in the market. That\u2019s how we address that issue. The way we get more second-hand, affordable EVs is by importing more brand new EVs, and this policy, this Amendment Paper, is working against that aim by encouraging and rewarding the polluting brand new vehicles industry and encouraging them to keep importing higher-emissions, brand new vehicles which will be on the road longer and mean that we\u2019re not getting those second-hand EVs in the market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s my question, and would the Minister consider some of our tabled amendments to Amendment Paper 444, which we put on the Table. There\u2019s a whole range of them, in my name and in my colleague Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s name, that would go some way to ensuring that the brand new vehicle importers who are bringing in high-emissions vehicles pay the price of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EOh, sorry, there\u2019s one more question\u2014I did mean to ask this earlier in the debate and I didn\u2019t get to it, which was: has the Minister got any evidence, do they have any guarantee based on these changes, that savings will be passed on to consumers? How do we know they won\u2019t just be banked by the industry so that they can make more money as opposed to bringing in lower-emissions vehicles that New Zealand desperately needs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022 data-id=\u00227370e71d64c94ed7a69a46565ed0b249\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227370e71d64c94ed7a69a46565ed0b249\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have checked with the officials, and I\u2019m advised that the Amendment Paper was released at approximately 3.48 p.m. yesterday, and that includes the reference to the regulatory impact statement. Then I\u2019m also\u2014well, I\u2019m not even advised of this, I can remember this. The substance or the content of the Amendment Paper was indicated by the Minister after Cabinet made their decisions on Monday, and that was, I think, reported on relatively widely at that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EIn terms of the member\u2019s point about the best way to get more EVs\u2014yep, you could take money from freezing workers and farmers and tradies and give it to lawyers and doctors to run around the town in their brand new Teslas. Or what you could do is you could drastically reform things like the Resource Management Act, improve our education system, improve our exports, grow our economy, lift incomes, and make sure that people have the wealth and prosperity that they need to be able to make choices in their lives so that they can afford to choose the vehicle that best suits them. So long as we are pouring costs on working New Zealanders, they are going to be the ones that are priced out of any electric vehicle market, whether that be used or new. It will be a luxury, which is the domain only of the rich and wealthy and probably of the 123 people that sit in this Chamber. In terms of making it easier to buy electric vehicles, the best thing you can do is make sure that you have a country which has the opportunity and growth and prosperity for all New Zealanders to have the incomes that they deserve so that they can make the choices for themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EFinally, in terms of the amendments that the member\u2019s put forward, I\u2019ve had a quick thumb through. Many of them don\u2019t seem to be consistent with the aims of the Government policy, so we won\u2019t be supporting them at this stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EThen, finally, \u201CCan the Minister provide any guarantee that those savings are passed on?\u201D Well, they\u2019re not savings, they are the avoidance of cost that would be passed on. While I can\u2019t guarantee what any individual vehicle importer or operator will or won\u2019t do with the price of vehicles in their market, what I can guarantee is that the ongoing situation where there are basically no second-hand vehicles available, even under existing standards in the likes of the Japanese second-hand market means that the cost of second-hand trucks and vehicles and work vehicles has gone through the roof\u2014to the point of $10,000, $15,000, $20,000 for some people who are just trying to buy a flatbed truck so that they can chuck your heat pump or your washing machine on and deliver it to your house so you can live a comfortable, luxurious, perfectly nice, comfortable life while they drag their butts around town every day, every week, making our lives easier. I think that we should be proud of the work that they do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022aebde1ab489f4d81b5065c0c495995e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aebde1ab489f4d81b5065c0c495995e3\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ada97aa7a6e34e1e9438b94f68b3f844\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00225613bf7f55114a0495b76e72d442affe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225613bf7f55114a0495b76e72d442affe\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Julie Anne Genter\u2019s tabled amendment to the Minister\u2019s amendment inserting new clause 5A, new section 177(2), set out on Amendment Paper 444, to amend the 2026 charges to $37.50 and $75 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fa1a7e10d97248859086b3c26bbd0c4e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002259adac68235d44bab18bebfb5d5b3585\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259adac68235d44bab18bebfb5d5b3585\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to the Minister\u2019s amendment inserting new clause 5A, new section 177(2), set out on Amendment Paper 444, to amend the 2026 charges to $30 and $60 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227063448c6845434d8883c3e84cbe4049\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002253f6d7fd40ca437ea1b2558bac97d725\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253f6d7fd40ca437ea1b2558bac97d725\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Julie Anne Genter\u2019s tabled amendment to the Minister\u2019s amendment to clause\u00A06 set out on Amendment Paper 444 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220fc9cd4bc44944ddb9a84e3a46738359\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00221ea3e6e49ac844298a626d22412a00bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ea3e6e49ac844298a626d22412a00bc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Julie Anne Genter\u2019s tabled amendment to the Minister\u2019s amendment inserting new clause 8A, new section 182(2), set out on Amendment Paper 444, to amend the 2026 charges to $30 and $60 be agreed to be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022500918ae22f84b8c927492258ac54e0c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2cde98b60844b56a808d9aa3a55bfa1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2cde98b60844b56a808d9aa3a55bfa1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to the Minister\u2019s amendment inserting new\u00A0clause 8A, new section 182(2), set out on Amendment Paper 444, to amend the 2026 charges to $24 and $48 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224751e03de26648dc99a21565baef1035\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002245cfb8e40be24ee38182cf25212871bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245cfb8e40be24ee38182cf25212871bf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Amendment Paper 444 be agreed to be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022958120d363964b24a4ae5420fbaa90a4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002296a1f903059d477eb76dd836f68f359c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296a1f903059d477eb76dd836f68f359c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment deleting clause 4(1) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022298f228187de42d2a3dc550457611d98\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab5805c384404dc89b3a3ccdb7c102d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab5805c384404dc89b3a3ccdb7c102d3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 4(1) replacing \u201C(ii)\u201D with \u201C(iv)\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225f540847a5164b218e5be71fa13c8af6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002278a392175f0547308531df3ac0992636\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278a392175f0547308531df3ac0992636\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Arena Williams\u2019 three remaining tabled amendments amending clause 4(1) are out of order as not being in the correct form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003EThe question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 4(2) deleting clause 4(2) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002285e43c1bf15c487fb524aa4748c7a7aa\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00222b13967e5436411db784d38ca295a2b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b13967e5436411db784d38ca295a2b3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 4(2) relating to targets adjusted for vehicle make and model be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226a57ae9a2f514b4fb618084e45864c61\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002296e455c17ca74e9ca10ab7a9b4989936\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296e455c17ca74e9ca10ab7a9b4989936\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4(2) inserting the words \u201Cincluding vehicle weight and class adjusted targets\u201D be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228eae7f8bf97c4356b95a2aeec5929437\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022de7c5b6985154706ba4ebcb134054f84\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de7c5b6985154706ba4ebcb134054f84\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to insert clause 4(3) relating to data integrity and quality be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fea3fe6de26b410e8563fd9fcc82dcee\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0a5a70198db4323b24f25be52da654d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0a5a70198db4323b24f25be52da654d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to insert a new clause 4A to require an annual impact assessment of the standard be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c088b28ecc154410a693e23be9c79d7b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00224dd24738b1d54cbabc63e0d8f6b6e6f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224dd24738b1d54cbabc63e0d8f6b6e6f4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to insert a new clause 4B to require monitoring and reporting on compliance and market impacts be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220e79e38a9818442cb91a5499bdbee50d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022eee09865a8584f5db418ab9d1b3d5923\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eee09865a8584f5db418ab9d1b3d5923\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to insert a new clause 4C to implement an equity review of the standard is out of order as being outside the scope of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003EThe question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to insert a new clause 4D to require an annual review of clean vehicle system outcomes be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022948346c810cc48e38474f836febe602d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00228071aba742694fefa077b42278760bb5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228071aba742694fefa077b42278760bb5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to insert a new clause 4E to require monitoring and reporting on importer participation in the system be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223a1c47a1e61741b2b64b0d712abf3b2b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f27afd4f243b4449bf8157c68fa0bda4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f27afd4f243b4449bf8157c68fa0bda4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to insert a new clause 4F to require an access review relating to clean vehicle availability be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002252e38f5c08554f399c0af12aa644624e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022de53868ae6a849d3bc82482972a8ee9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de53868ae6a849d3bc82482972a8ee9e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5 relating to determining weight-adjusted targets by Order in Council is out of order as being not in the correct form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003EI\u2019m just going to read out the next vote, and then I\u2019m going to swap chairs while the Clerk is taking the vote\u2014just so you know what\u2019s going on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003EThe question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5 relating to a quarterly summary of clean vehicle activity be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c4277d2493fc46a9b7301d79e8d00337\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e50b710ec4ee46ca892d239b9aa7afee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e50b710ec4ee46ca892d239b9aa7afee\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5 relating to reporting on light vehicle fleet changes be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223c010e1faabb49b7870af045a9aa1c77\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u00227d668da2bc744d17be19ab0783523177\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d668da2bc744d17be19ab0783523177\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5 relating to reporting on affordability and availability of light vehicles be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c282ba8fd4d14acead925f1b59478c06\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee6eb807d5794d4bbf9ca1655be01c57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee6eb807d5794d4bbf9ca1655be01c57\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5 relating to transparency reporting on the clean vehicle credit system be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022539fc11a955c4158bb616e7d816705b0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u00229d7617f7cb1c4e9ba14aacdcf7db274f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d7617f7cb1c4e9ba14aacdcf7db274f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5 relating to reporting on fleet transition and vehicle market trends be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022cf44349406ae4b3a871023fdbee900ae\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u002274d3aa450d3c4dbe80ae675974647235\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274d3aa450d3c4dbe80ae675974647235\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5 relating to equity and affordability reporting is out of order as being outside the scope of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EThe question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to insert new clause 7A relating to establishing a class of small-volume importers be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002290eff74a77ea4a5da993f6c571d4f6b3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3adb624b9f7418898feadcb79399a06\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3adb624b9f7418898feadcb79399a06\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 6, replacing \u201C4 years\u201D with \u201C3.5 years\u201D is out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EThe Hon Julie Anne Genter\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 6, replacing \u201C4 years\u201D with \u201C2 years\u201D is out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EThe question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to insert new clause 7A relating to regulations to support small-volume importers be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002299fd679d46c04e5382d0aeba392160e5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u002239eb663359f544eba560858a3c6f939b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239eb663359f544eba560858a3c6f939b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to insert new clause 7A relating to regulations to support low-volume importers be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002295bf0311ea57475d8fd62ea71a969e59\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u00228ae5160d943b466baf14cbd524d1ed49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ae5160d943b466baf14cbd524d1ed49\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to insert new clause 7A relating to regulations to support occasional importers be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229e244fda974645c5a49b16cddfb04445\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u00228e029cf51e304946987e9d8e93f39472\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e029cf51e304946987e9d8e93f39472\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to insert new clause 7A relating to regulations to support smaller importers be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d33537d3019d4e7282d88120242f9630\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u002230ce77d94c2f45d299c7f0f72192a4c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230ce77d94c2f45d299c7f0f72192a4c0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to insert new clause 7A relating to transitional arrangements for low-volume importers be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224d5795026e574bf3bda60b7c838195ba\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u00223a8ed3a0bf2143e38ce5f57dff2b8ef2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a8ed3a0bf2143e38ce5f57dff2b8ef2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 8(1) to delete \u201Cor a light vehicle importer who imports used vehicles\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226b67e26d710f4b6e898f9720d7e34016\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u00224af97bd7850840d1baf2e0080c527f15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224af97bd7850840d1baf2e0080c527f15\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Julie Anne Genter\u2019s tabled amendment to insert new subclause (1A) in clause\u00A08 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002255f0c0f3eac04e08b44393cd00202061\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c113972ac4a949f7806b6e56db80e931\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c113972ac4a949f7806b6e56db80e931\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Julie Anne Genter\u2019s tabled amendment to insert new subclause (2A) in clause\u00A08 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002212b059f927624a16a9bab2cd46bf55b4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5c8ab4f3cd643d283e95bbe16eaf85a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5c8ab4f3cd643d283e95bbe16eaf85a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 8(3), new section 180(3), to insert \u201Cthe transferor must satisfy themselves that the transfer will not disincentivise the transferee to import clean and efficient cars and\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224cfd0cb2593c45a497390fa343bf59a2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u00220e8c9657dd8d48648585a21cbd39af7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e8c9657dd8d48648585a21cbd39af7a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 8(3), new section 180(3), to insert \u201Cthe transferor must be satisfied that the transfer is enabling the importation of efficient, clean light vehicles and does not have an impact on the emissions of the transferee\u2019s vehicle fleet, and\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f6136b9872a742bebec264b49473c6d3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u00223945a9f12fbc4731b0f4bf22b09ab1bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223945a9f12fbc4731b0f4bf22b09ab1bd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 8(3), new section 180(3), to replace the words after \u201Cmust be\u201D with \u201Cmade on conditions set by Order in Council after 1 January 2027\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002255a1301b0c1b491cb1a9e7154d7e2029\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022285964b5e6be4c24a21270639dce615c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022285964b5e6be4c24a21270639dce615c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Julie Anne Genter\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 8(3), replacing \u201C2 credits\u201D with \u201C1.5 credits\u201D in each instance be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002201a16f6d09bd4aeda8d8fea8479c10b5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u00225c4272c5a43e4beeb9532d59686d8f02\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c4272c5a43e4beeb9532d59686d8f02\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to insert new subclause (1A) in clause 9 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225a5c32986eff4c048e75fb12e55f7bbd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u00224233bbc12f4941108eea3d7aaac27add\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224233bbc12f4941108eea3d7aaac27add\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to insert new subclause (2A) in clause 9 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b7a98ed48b4944bc883470657cd19179\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u002221b994f2e7bb4f999ce0bbb4577b0ba2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221b994f2e7bb4f999ce0bbb4577b0ba2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 9(3), new section 184(3), to insert \u201Cthe transferor must satisfy themselves that the transfer will not disincentivise the transferee to import clean and efficient cars and\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002204d0648248c74c92bcd888b4f656e922\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b626463e53ab43ca809a6b44ce2159ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b626463e53ab43ca809a6b44ce2159ba\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 9(3), new section 184(3), to replace the words after \u201Cmust be\u201D with \u201Cmade on conditions set by Order in Council after 1 January 2027\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220d164566963c468387f01473106cfd20\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022d618ec9c6a984d169c392408ebf711cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d618ec9c6a984d169c392408ebf711cb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 9(3), replacing \u201C2 credits\u201D with \u201C1.5 credits\u201D in each instance be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002242cf0beb0b1d4ec7a28e9f9b3c61559a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb57fb9b56b2472abac2089f8845358c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb57fb9b56b2472abac2089f8845358c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to insert new clause 10 relating to the annual publication of credit system ratings be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e40a7041885341a7a9cf09e62af1787e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u00229fffc8c2e8cd4aa1a2e453a873f4b99e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fffc8c2e8cd4aa1a2e453a873f4b99e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to insert new clause 10 relating to an annual statement on the clean vehicle system be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ecb9e95ed0e44420bb0d54f02fbb57e2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u00228fdc95e4529344e0abddb782dc30e772\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228fdc95e4529344e0abddb782dc30e772\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to insert new clause 10 relating to the publication of future settings for the clean vehicle system be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ea46fef1239c4dcab0419995dd971c93\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa3aa1204d404af88e20f508b506c6f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa3aa1204d404af88e20f508b506c6f8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to insert new clause 10 relating to an annual outline of clean vehicle system changes be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b54ef8f2e39c452a901786db9d018cb8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u002200b5102833014e1a8e36c979ad7f0d08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200b5102833014e1a8e36c979ad7f0d08\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to insert new clause 11 relating to the quarterly publication of total charges be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228139c66d540248d18dcf9cd518be6906\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb3294caeeab470d8257a7f37ebfe487\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb3294caeeab470d8257a7f37ebfe487\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to insert new clause 11 relating to the quarterly publication of clean vehicle activity totals be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002257188639be8e4fb0aafaf5f2033a8f3e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022d654cf6505bd461b9c1e97eac748b381\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d654cf6505bd461b9c1e97eac748b381\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to insert new clause 12 relating to a minimum notice period for changes to credit system settings be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228ec9dc25e7dc428c910188b94bddd6eb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u00222b7eba391c9e4d96a0084f139009d127\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b7eba391c9e4d96a0084f139009d127\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to insert new clause 12 relating to a required notice period for operational changes be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e73b716d0d7844309ee1838a0176f24a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002291bc2df420334a7ca3c0ce68bf41a872\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f2a6bb2087254f4294dc8e574a4a2a4d\u0022\u003EPart 2  Consequential amendments to Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Regulations 2022\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u00228466a5178dd3416d9d7dc46debc0c76b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228466a5178dd3416d9d7dc46debc0c76b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 10 to 12, \u201CConsequential amendments to Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Regulations 2022\u201D. The question is that Part 2 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3264c80f0be441faac025e2daf3b9a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3264c80f0be441faac025e2daf3b9a4\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Well, welcome to Part 2, and I\u2019m glad to see that Mr Men\u00E9ndez March never skips leg day, with the amount of up and down there\u2014congratulations on those votes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EWe come to Part 2, \u201CConsequential amendments to Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Regulations 2022\u201D. It makes amendments to the regulations to align with all the amendments made and agreed to in Part 1. It\u2019s such a small part that it\u2019s almost worth reading it out word for word. Clause 10, \u201CPrincipal regulations\u201D, provides that \u201CSections 11 and 12 amend the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Regulations 2022.\u201D Clause 11 lets us know that regulation 3 is amended, and that\u2019s the interpretation section. It says that \u201CIn regulation 3, definition of \u2018expiry date\u2019, replace \u20183 years\u2019 with \u20184 years\u2019\u00A0\u201D, and that\u2019s quite helpful because that aligns with the change that we\u2019ve just made in clause 6. Then, of course, we\u2019ve got clause 12, which amends regulation 17, \u201CProcedure and requirements for transferring carbon dioxide credits between accounts\u201D, and it says, \u201CIn regulation 17(3)(b), replace \u20183 years\u2019 with \u20184 years\u2019\u00A0\u201D. They are three very straightforward clauses that give effect to the change made in the previous part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EThere are some amendments on the Table that I think are worth very quickly traversing. As I mentioned before, those amendments that are inconsistent with Government policy won\u2019t be supported by the Government for, I think, obvious reasons. There is one from Arena Williams at 3:15:20 p.m. on 19 November that seeks to replace the term \u201C4 years\u201D with the term \u201C3 years and\u201D\u2014what looks like\u2014\u201C1 mouth\u201D, but I assume it\u2019s \u201C1 month\u201D. The issue with that is it then means that the statute, which will say \u201C4 years\u201D, would be inconsistent with the regulations, which would then say \u201C3 years and 1 month\u201D. For consistency\u2019s sake, you would keep the statute consistent with the regulations, otherwise the chair of the Regulations Review Committee would be all over us like a hot rash, and we wouldn\u2019t want that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EThere are a number of other amendments to Part 2 that Arena Williams has put forward. I actually think it\u2019s just worth putting on the record for the public what some of those amendments contain, just so that they know the extent to which the Opposition is taking this very, very seriously, I\u2019m sure. One of those amendments is to replace the term \u201C4 years\u201D with \u201C1,095 days\u201D, another amendment is to replace the term \u201C4 years\u201D with \u201C26,280 hours\u201D, another is to replace the term \u201C4 years\u201D with \u201C156 weeks\u201D, and I think that one of the ones that is most impressive in terms of the mathematical ability of Ms Williams is the one lodged at 3:15:25 p.m., which is to replace the term \u201C4 years\u201D with \u201C94,608,600 seconds\u201D. Now, we won\u2019t be supporting those amendments, because we think not only are they quite frivolous but they are\u2014well, they\u2019re just quite frivolous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EI\u2019m sure there are some worthy amendments somewhere that are running around, but in terms of those ones, we won\u2019t be supporting them at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022 data-id=\u002219b37d4aac33484d84b9873af3ea0779\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219b37d4aac33484d84b9873af3ea0779\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I am taking my first call, and I want to go straight to clause 12. I\u2019d also like to preface my contribution to say that the reason I haven\u2019t been in the Chamber is that I have been upstairs working furiously through the regulatory impact statement (RIS), which is an incredibly important document to enable us to scrutinise what is a highly technical bill, and it is a bill that includes an amendment this morning that has quite a few changes in it. Without the RIS, we have not been able to do that effectively. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EClause 12 gives us that opportunity to do it, because clause 12 has a fundamental impact on the system in that it, basically, moves the system from annual compliance to multi-year smoothing. It encourages importers to bank and skim compliance obligations, and that does raise questions which we have not been able to interrogate properly because we\u2019ve not had the regulatory impact statement to support that, and there are a number of other things. We will move through it, but other colleagues, including my colleague Helen White, has been doing the same thing\u2014and I understand Tracey McLellan has, too\u2014and so we want this opportunity to be able to ask questions. There are 14 specified risks that have not been able to come out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003ENow, just to give members some context to this, I worked on this bill late last night. I looked for the latest update of the RIS. I couldn\u2019t find it anywhere online. I was watching the proceedings in the committee of the whole House this morning and I was about to come down to contribute very early, and I heard the Minister quite glibly say, \u201COh, there\u2019s one on its way.\u201D When we look at the 18-page document and we look at page 3, there are even annotations in red on the side of the document that make it almost look like a draft. It has been produced in a hurry. I went and checked with the Clerk of the House to make sure it wasn\u2019t anything to do with me not being able to find the document and they confirmed that even though this is dated a few days ago, there can be issues with the links, and they could not confirm that the RIS would be available. Now, I can say hand on heart that I have not seen it until this morning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EI just want to point out, first of all, that although the Minister has said that clause 12 is technical, given some of the issues, the impact of it is not technical and is worthy of scrutiny, because what it does is it amends regulation 17 of the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Regulations 2022, which is around credit expiry and use. Regulation 17 governs how credits expire, how they can be applied across years, the hierarchy of credit usage, and transferability rules, and what can happen is there can be penalty interactions. There can be a retroactive application to existing credits, which is really unusual in regulatory design, and it\u2019s quite easy for the Minister to sort of say, \u201COh, this is just about regulations.\u201D when we know that regulations are worthy of scrutiny, particularly in a rushed process like this, and particularly where they could have a retrospective impact. That is what has been raised in the RIS because credits previously set to expire in 2025-26 now suddenly remain valid until 2028 or beyond, and so the fact that it does have retrospectivity is a problem. It\u2019s also potentially inconsistent because it\u2019s not amended precisely to reflect the new section 178(3) of the Land Transport Act 1998, and so there could actually be statute or regulation clash grounds for challenge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThat makes it administratively weak under law, and so I\u2019m going to ask some questions specifically on that. Then\u2014if I may, Mr Chair\u2014I may take another call just to point out the 14 specific risks that have come up in the RIS, now that in the last couple of hours we have been able to actually see it, and some of them have quite a lot of public interest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EMy first direct question on clause 12 is: has the New Zealand Transport Agency Waka Kotahi run system simulations to ensure that amending regulation 17 will not cause credit accounting errors? This goes to the amendments that my colleague Arena Williams had suggested, which were to get much more precise modelling so that there could actually be some evidence base, because at the moment we are having to rely on the Minister\u2019s assurance that all his numbers stack up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThe second question: how will regulation 17 deal with multi-year bridging credits, especially those generated before 2026? Does the retroactive application of the extended expiry breach any principle of regulatory predictability, and is he concerned about that? Has Crown Law confirmed that extending the life of existing credits is legally safe, and is it consistent with the zero carbon Act budgeting framework? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EMy fifth question is: does the Minister accept that regulation 17\u2019s amendment, effectively, weakens the constraint that the Clean Vehicle Standard was designed to impose year by year? So that is looking at one of the first risks that has come up in the RIS, and my colleagues will be asking more detailed questions. But that is around the gaming of the system, essentially. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThere are 14 risks. There\u2019s the gaming of the system. There\u2019s the surge of high-emitting vehicles, which has been mentioned. This one\u2014I think is maybe why the Minister was trying to get us out of the House so quickly\u2014is a specific risk that mentions potentially higher fuel costs for New Zealanders of $115 million. There is the potential for increased national emissions. There are perverse incentives\u2014now, Julie Anne Genter managed to ask a question about that, but without having the analysis of the RIS and being able to interrogate further, it is absolutely a valid point. I should think that she and my colleagues should be given the chance to actually look at what is the real risk of those perverse incentives and what will the outcomes be. Are they medium risks with high impacts\u2014in which case, should we be taking this gamble? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EWe have other risks around reduced fuel savings and our emissions reduction pledges. We haven\u2019t even touched on equity and fairness\u2014and that seems to be a continual theme in this House\u2014for communities that are going to be impacted by this. The Minister himself has tried to suggest that this is helping ordinary New Zealanders and that it\u2019s only those who are in a privileged position who are going to going to have to worry about it, but, in fact, the RIS would suggest the opposite, and this side of the House is very interested in equity and fairness, particularly when it\u2019s hidden in regulations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EWe see a risk around the declining value of credits. Now, why on earth would we have a regulatory system that purports to support a bill that actually makes the value of credits decline, which ultimately could also lead to higher vehicle prices? It flies in the face of what this Government has said it is trying to do, and I can provide a couple of quotes from some of the Ministers who have talked about our emissions trading scheme and how we\u2019re wanting to meet our climate targets. I mean, Christopher Luxon said, post-Cabinet in April 2024, that \u201CWe remain absolutely committed to meeting climate targets.\u201D and Simon Watts said on Radio New Zealand that \u201CNew Zealand will not step back from its climate commitments.\u201D, and yet we see, hidden in the regulations and the impact of the regulations through the lack of modelling and through this Amendment Paper, which was dropped at the eleventh hour and which is very, very technical, and we did not have the facility of the RIS to be able to understand what its impact was, including with the regulations\u2014we are seeing a bill that is flying in the face of our climate commitments and what the Government says that it intends to uphold. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EWe also see risks about the slower uptake of lower emissions and about the potential restriction of the supply of vehicles that have cleaner emissions, and also there is a risk created by the undermining of the system by the provision of interim relief. There have been no questions on that, because we were not able to look at the RIS and understand that that actually was a risk. How big is the risk of that interim relief? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThis comes down to the incomplete modelling. We do have technical questions not only on the RIS but also just to pinpoint on clauses 10 and 11, as well, which may sound quite technical, but they have only come to our attention and they are the result of the architecture of the regulatory system that Part 2 of the bill brings into place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EAlthough the Minister might like to look bored and act like this is all very technical, I think that New Zealanders will understand that this has been so rushed that we\u2019ve had the most important document, really, for our ability to scrutinise properly, as the Opposition, dropped on to the Table during the debate. We now have the opportunity to get some real answers to the Minister about the modelling and about the unintended consequences of some of the maths that we are seeing come up through the RIS. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u00229597e44dba7f4df2a59be5931925b86e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229597e44dba7f4df2a59be5931925b86e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Before the Minister takes a call, as well, I do take the point about the late publishing of the RIS statement. That is noted, but I want to encourage the committee to actually focus on this particular section of Part 2, as well. We do have a Minister here who can answer your questions, and so if you have been going through the RIS and you do have questions, I would ask you to focus on those questions and, hopefully, they will encourage engagement from the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022 data-id=\u0022842f43885bea4b3097d766396682cf79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022842f43885bea4b3097d766396682cf79\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just in response to the member Ingrid Leary\u2019s 10-minute contribution, she raised a number of questions. I\u2019ll get some advice on some of the specific ones, but a couple that were mentioned in there were around whether this is inconsistent with the Act. I\u2019ll point the member to\u2014and I should have done this at the top, actually\u2014Amendment Paper 444, which actually does make some amendments to Part 2, as well. That Amendment Paper does directly cross-reference to the Act to ensure that consistency, and so that should resolve that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EIn terms of retrospectivity, there is no retrospectivity in the bill. The changes will apply to current, valid credits as at the date of commencement. It doesn\u2019t reach back in time to credits which may have been used or not used, or cashed in before that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EIn terms of the risks mentioned in the regulatory impact statement, they are related to the Amendment Paper, and not to the change in clause 12, which actually refers to clause 6 of the bill. The Government\u2019s position on this is that the benefit for New Zealand consumers outweighs the risks, and it is, therefore, a change worth making. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4db3f15ac6040a7a4f2682fa4762924\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4db3f15ac6040a7a4f2682fa4762924\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just wanted to first of all take up the point about retrospectivity. Am I right, Minister, as I understand it, that with regard to the price for the credits currently, if people hold a lot of those credits, they will plummet in their value in the time period dramatically, from over $60 to $15? If I look at page 16 of the regulatory impact statement (RIS), at paragraph 51, I get the following statement: \u201CHowever, 2,895,929 of these credits available for offsetting were issued in 2023 and under current settings, will expire during the period where their value is reduced.\u201D That is a whole lot of credits where the market assumed certainty, and now that won\u2019t be the case. They will be holding credits of much lesser value during that time. I\u2019d like to have an answer to that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EI wanted to note that when I was going through the RIS, I thought it was deeply ironic that the key vehicle importer stakeholders got this policy detail and they were able to provide comment on it, and that is seen as shaping the view. We haven\u2019t been given that same respect and neither has the New Zealand public, and that is a lobby group. That is a group with power, and I\u2019d like the Minister\u2019s comment on that part\u2014that is at paragraph 45 of the RIS. Why would the Minister consult with a lobby group that is an importer of vehicles, get comment, and shape policy in that way\u2014is that a safe thing to do? What kinds of checks and balances are in the system with regard to that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022158e74dd84894dc0b865b6c01717051d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the House to bring your questions to the very specific\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b745cd582a134c14b900c55ba2f0dfe1\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. To go to the impact on clauses 10, 11 and 12, and look at that, I think that very relevant in the RIS are the paragraphs starting at paragraph 48, which are about credit deficits and credit surpluses, and that will result in additional fuel costs and emissions in 2050. That\u2019s an incredibly important point, and it relates to this part of the bill in that way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s the part that I was quoting from in terms of the change in value of those credits, and so that\u2019s important. We don\u2019t know a lot about those additional fuel costs, and this is the bit that probably most alarmed me in what I had read. If we go through, at paragraph 52, it said that \u201CThe key rationale for the Standard is the fuel savings and emissions reduction it provides. Modelling estimates that by suspending the charge rate of the Standard as per Option 4: New Zealanders would spend an extra $115 million on fuel between 2026 and 2050 with this proposal, $69 million of which would be spent in the first 10 years; The transport sector would produce an additional 83 kilo-tonnes of [carbon dioxide equivalent greenhouse gas] emissions between 2026 and 2050, of which 28 and 23 kilo-tonnes of [carbon dioxide] would be produced in emissions budget periods 2 and 3 respectively.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to know what work has been done on that, but this was the bit that got me: \u201CDue to time constraints, this analysis was unable to model the impact on fuel savings and emissions reduction for reducing the charge rates for Options 2 and 3. However, it is likely \u2026 the extra fuel costs and additional emissions would be similar, or [higher or] lower than what is estimated for Option 4 above.\u201D Due to time constraints, we don\u2019t actually know\u2014we haven\u2019t modelled the fuel savings. Is that correct? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EI was also interested in this little footnote about how\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022 data-id=\u0022359eeda818ab4236ad64f9f474c1c71b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022359eeda818ab4236ad64f9f474c1c71b\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Look, just with regard to the question around retrospectivity, the bill doesn\u2019t apply retrospectively. For something to apply retrospectively, it would say that it would reach back into the credits or charges incurred by an individual prior to the commencement date and say, \u201CWe\u2019re going to retrospectively hit you with a penalty or provide you with a refund for those credits.\u201D It applies from the day going forward. So if you cash in your credits today, it will be at the price before the bill passes, and if you cash the credits in on the day after its commencement, it will be at the new price. It doesn\u2019t apply retrospectively, and that\u2019s not what that means in that situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EJust on the question around why a Minister would consult with the people involved in the industry to see whether this is a good idea, well, that is the way that Governments and Ministers make decisions. They consult with experts and people in the industry to determine whether or not the policy change is worth pursuing, what impact it might have, and what the costs and benefits are, and I would encourage the member to talk to her colleagues about the tens and hundreds, if not thousands, of industry advocates, association groups, NGOs, lobbyists, organisations, and unions that Ministers, for decades and decades, have consulted with in order to make sure that their policy lands in the right space. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EFinally, again, the member brings up for, I think, the third time in this debate the fuel savings, or the opposite of fuel savings. As she has pointed out, the officials estimate that the temporary charges will reduce projected fuel savings by $115 million, and, as mentioned twice before, that is offset by avoiding about $264 million in net charges being passed on to consumers in higher vehicle prices. By my very quick fifth form maths, that makes a net benefit to consumers of $149 million in the system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4a8c50c7daa4925a2a9db2c36a86bd6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4a8c50c7daa4925a2a9db2c36a86bd6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I take the next call, I\u2019d just remind people that this is Part 2, \u201CConsequential amendments to the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Regulations 2022\u201D, and I do understand that you people have the regulatory impact statement (RIS) now. But if people can relate their questions about the RIS to this very specific part, the committee would appreciate that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022 data-id=\u002224b6e1202b054005a3d8d64e816504ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224b6e1202b054005a3d8d64e816504ea\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chair. My comments relate to Part 2, clauses\u00A011 and 12. This part extends the ability of the people who have credits for those credits to remain credits, and in the regulatory impact statement it says, in paragraph 57, that there\u2019s a risk here in stockpiling of credits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EEarlier in this debate, the Government went ahead and amended the bill so that the charge rates are lower for 2026 and 2027, they massively reduced the charges for bringing in more polluting vehicles, and, at the same time, now\u2014in this part, in clauses 11 and 12\u2014they\u2019re extending the period of time that people can hold credits for two years beyond that, up until 2028, or four years after they get the credits. I don\u2019t understand how these two working together don\u2019t completely undermine the goal of encouraging and supporting the industry to import more low-emissions and zero-emissions vehicles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EI guess my question is, will the Minister consider my amendment and\u2014hold on. I don\u2019t have the exact\u2014we have some tabled amendments that would change it to two years rather than four years, and this is clauses 11 and 12. It would be helpful to understand from the Government\u2019s point of view how we\u2019re going to achieve the goal of reducing emissions from the vehicle fleet when the combination of these two changes is to make it easier for the industry\u2014and particularly the new vehicle industry\u2014to bring in more highly polluting, brand new vehicles which will be on the road for 20 years and, therefore, will still be putting out emissions in 15 years\u2019 time, higher than what they would have been if we have had effective policies to incentivise more low-emissions and zero-emissions vehicles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re falling behind the rest of the world. Our targets in 2026 are lower than that of China, the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, South Korea, the EU, and Australia, and so we\u2019re falling behind Australia on this and we have a much lower charge rate because of the amendments that were just passed in the previous part of this bill. What is the rationale in extending the credits to four years as opposed to two? Doesn\u2019t that mean that there can be stockpiling of credits over the next two years, which then, again, slows the uptake of lower-emissions vehicles, and it means having more highly polluting vehicles coming into the country in 2027-28 than would otherwise be the case\u2014and it doesn\u2019t appear that any real modelling or climate impact has been done to see what that impact is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EFinally, the Associate Minister of Transport said just now in his contribution that it\u2019s completely normal\u2014this is how his Government does it\u2014that they consult with industry. Did they consult at all with the Climate Change Commission or any independent climate policy experts to get a balanced point of view, and not simply the point of view of the industry in whose interests it is to continue profiting off higher-margin, higher-polluting vehicles? That is completely at odds with New Zealand\u2019s interests in reducing fossil fuel consumption, which saves money for New Zealanders and helps us meet out climate targets and which is a non-negotiable\u2014it\u2019s something that we have to do. Yeah, those are my questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022 data-id=\u00224648a2a09e33447cbd1fbedcfe7440af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224648a2a09e33447cbd1fbedcfe7440af\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, the questions that the member Julie Anne Genter is putting relate to the substance of the policy, which was dealt with in Part 1, particularly around clause 6. Just for the clarity for the committee, Part 2 provides consequential amendments to the regulations, and, therefore, I\u2019m happy to take questions on whether or not amending regulations is the right thing to do or why we\u2019re amending the regulations, but the purpose of the regulation amendment is to align with the changes already accepted by the committee of the whole House in Part 1. That that is where the substance of the policy was discussed and debated at length, and I\u2019m not sure what more can be said on a part that we\u2019ve already progressed through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003ENow, in terms of how you reduce emissions in the vehicle fleet, well, you ensure that it\u2019s part of the comprehensive and capped emissions trading scheme (ETS) system, whereby emissions budgets are set for five-year periods where there is a sinking lid for emissions over time. Therefore, if the market or consumers or drivers choose to drive more vehicles or longer kilometres and that increases the number of vehicle emissions, then that will decrease the emissions available for other sectors to emit through New Zealand Units (NZUs), and so, over time, the balance of NZUs drops in the ETS\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c422447af22e4c89a5e5b07cb11295e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a3e4dd9ac904f2e8bb9a03e54740aaa\u0022\u003ESteve Abel\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a fantasy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271264ae806e9460eaa4b79cfd893048c\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not a fantasy. It is quite literally how the law works that was put in place and supported by subsequent Governments, and if previous Governments wanted to change that law, they should have changed it. They should have bought millions of carbon credits and shredded them. But they didn\u2019t, because they believe in the ETS like we believe in the ETS, and we think it\u2019s the powerful and comprehensive tool to meet our emissions reductions and make sure that we meet our obligations across the world so that we can have a balance in the needs of working New Zealanders, who get out there everyday, drive their vehicles, go to work, clean their offices, grow the fruit and veggies, pour the lattes, put together the bicycles, clean the roads, sweep the streets, and do all the things that they do, grinding every day, day in, day out, so that we can come here to Parliament and debate some very sensible amendments in the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill (No 2). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df23ed9a7102406f9899558fb3841582\u0022 data-id=\u0022c06b6329f4f24a079c194707e598feb8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df23ed9a7102406f9899558fb3841582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c06b6329f4f24a079c194707e598feb8\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022073487d940104c80baaa4252a6ee1735\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022073487d940104c80baaa4252a6ee1735\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve been listening to the debate, and this is quite a narrow part in Part 2, but there are amendments that I understand may not have been addressed, so I\u2019ll look forward to hearing some of those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022 data-id=\u00224e23d122150047c295c1bd6d7a4da7c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e23d122150047c295c1bd6d7a4da7c1\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana. Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s my pleasure, as Labour\u2019s transport spokesperson, to take my first call on Part 2. Madam Chair, I agree with you that there are some amendments here\u2014one actually is in the name of the Minister of Transport\u2014that I do have some questions about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EEssentially, Part 2 looks to incorporate the vehicle, I guess, by which the changes from Part 1 can be given effect to. I have had a chance to look at the regulations\u2014the 2022 regulations\u2014and the impact if the committee was to, effectively, take on board the amendments in the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper 444. What I find interesting is that the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, in its report, didn\u2019t really make changes to any of the aspects in relation to Part 2. A lot of the changes from the select committee were in Part 1\u2014or all of them were\u2014and in Part 2, it\u2019s as it was when reported back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EThe select committee, after hearing from the community, determined that no changes were required for Part 2. What we now have in front of us, though, is an Amendment Paper in the name of the Minister that, effectively, makes some changes, and so that is what I would like to focus my questions to the Associate Minister of Transport on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EIn particular, I want to look at clause 11. Clause 11 is, basically, looking at this issue of the expiry date and the definitions, and we\u2019ve heard many times in this House that definitions are important. While the select committee saw no need to change, effectively, what is defined as the \u201Cexpiry date\u201D, what was already in clause 11\u2014which is amending regulation 3\u2014was the replacement of the term \u201C3 years\u201D with \u201C4 years\u201D. That was put before the select committee, and the select committee by majority agreed to that, but what we now have is a potential change from the Government to, effectively, modify that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EThe first question I have for the Minister is, given his reference to the regulatory impact statement (RIS)\u2014and I\u2019m not going to go into the RIS, but there has been a reflection that has been made about the fact that in that document, there is clearly an annotation in the column that indicates that this is some feedback from industry participants. Now, it\u2019s really interesting, I think, for the committee to get an understanding of to what extent industry participants have actually informed the Minister of Transport\u2019s desire to make this change. We haven\u2019t heard about the\u2014well, we have heard some of the rationale behind changes to clauses 11 and 12 in Amendment Paper 444, but what we haven\u2019t actually heard from the Government is to what effect there was any consultation that was taken by the Minister. Did industry participants have any impact on the Minister\u2019s desire to bring this proposed change to the committee? I think that that is entirely reasonable to expect a response on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EThe other one is in relation to the definition around the date. Clause 11 in Part 2 talks about the replacement of the term \u201C3 years\u201D with \u201C4 years\u201D. Now, we\u2019d just assume that is in relation to a financial year or a calendar year, and it would be helpful if the Minister\u2014perhaps that is already identified in a definition in the principal Act, but we have previously talked about the applicability of when things would kick in and when they wouldn\u2019t. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EMy final question is on the proposed change in Amendment Paper 444 to clause 12. This is in relation to regulation 17 of the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Regulations, where there would be a change around how things could be transferred between accounts. Yes, this bill will give an ability for changes to be made between different credit holders\u2014and that\u2019s why it\u2019s in the bill now\u2014around the difference between the used vehicles and the new vehicles. But, Minister, is that simply just an indication that the transfer is purely transactional, or are there other considerations that we should read into that, because the committee didn\u2019t see a need to initiate a change in this space, and given that the Government has a majority on the committee, it could have done that if it wished to. Now, we have had this change landed yesterday, and it would be helpful to understand what actually is the rationale behind the transfer component. Is that purely a transactional thing that gives effect to the earlier provisions in Part 1, or is there a little bit more to be read into that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022 data-id=\u002225ef0d3f1f4f4a82aea01a58614f24a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225ef0d3f1f4f4a82aea01a58614f24a7\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, the reason that there are new clauses 11 and 12 on Amendment Paper 444 is because the Amendment Paper also amended clause 6, and the committee of the whole House has just agreed on that, amendment to change section 178(3) of the principal Act to no longer refer to \u201C3 years\u201D or \u201C4 years\u201D but to instead refer to\u2014and the member can read it. It\u2019s under clause 6. The purpose of replacing clauses 11 and 12 is to update the wording in the original bill to refer to the expiry date in section\u00A0178(3) in both clauses\u00A011 and 12 to reflect the amendments that have already been made. The purpose of these two clauses is to update the regulations to reflect the substantive policy decisions that have already been made and discussed in Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EFurther to the member Tangi Utikere\u2019s point, it\u2019s\u2014I don\u2019t know what the point, really, is that he\u2019s trying to make. Simply because a select committee agrees or doesn\u2019t agree, or recommends or doesn\u2019t recommend something, it doesn\u2019t mean that the committee or the Minister can\u2019t put amendments forward, and if the member thinks otherwise, then I assume he\u2019ll be asking his colleague to withdraw her amendments, because I don\u2019t think the select committee considered, for example, whether they should replace the term \u201C4 years\u201D with the term \u201C94,608,600 seconds\u201D. I think that if the member wants his colleague to withdraw all her amendments based on the idea that the select committee didn\u2019t refer to that, then I\u2019m happy for him to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022 data-id=\u0022cac65bbc4354425e88582444a6def511\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cac65bbc4354425e88582444a6def511\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I really appreciate having the opportunity to take my first call on this part. It is about the definition of \u201Cexpiry date\u201D. This is an important reflection of the policy positions that the Government has taken here around extending for those importers who hold large accounts, either in deficit or in the positive, about how they can use those and how they can transfer them, because this extension further kicks down the road their ability to continue to, essentially, rest on the market conditions that were at play a couple of years ago, when there was strong uptake, consumers were able to claim the rebate, and there were also better economic conditions, and so a number of importers have sort of bank credits from that time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EThe impact of that, though, is that for the period to be extended, the current requirement for importers to more stridently balance up their accounts by looking for more products to import that are cleaner materially changes. The information is not available to us as to who that impacts the most, and so in the information that\u2019s been prepared by the Government on this extension from \u201C3 years\u201D to \u201C4 years\u201D, it\u2019s not clear which importers are impacted by this extension, or whether they are large importers or small importers. My guess would be that the larger importers are benefited by this, and I would like to know from the Minister whether this has a material impact that is financially positive for those importers who will have a detrimental impact from the reduction in price. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s well understood now, following on from Part 1, that those accounts that many of the large importers have\u2014perhaps, say, you might imagine Toyota in your mind when you\u2019re considering this. They will be in positive now, but, effectively, if there is $6\u00A0million in their covered account, that was in the positive, but now it is worth $1.5 million. That is a substantial reduction, but to be able to use it out for an extra year might have a material impact on their financial position, and so I\u2019m asking the Minister to help us to understand whether those things are meant to balance out, or whether this is simply something for the benefit of those large importers that doesn\u2019t actually impact on their financial position overall, and whether they continue to suffer a detriment because of this policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EIt is not retrospective; it is retroactive. It has a retroactive effect on assets that have been accrued by those importers, and they have an account on a spreadsheet that they can see on a screen somewhere that goes from a value that is a high value now and that will drop down to, essentially, a quarter of what it was when this comes into effect. But they will be able to use it for longer, so what impact does that have on their financial position?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EThe other question I have about this extension from three years to four years is this. The Minister has noted one of my amendments which makes it clearer about what exactly the extension applies to and the time period it applies to, because that year-by-year accounting, at the moment, has a material impact on any given vehicle that was imported and on how you\u2019re offsetting it and what transaction you can offset it against. That has an impact on changing economic conditions, because if we expect, in the next year, more people to be buying cars that can offset against what exists in the account of any given importer now, or traded by any given importer now, then the time needs to be clear, and that setting of four years doesn\u2019t seem to me to be very clear when you have a number of these transactions happening on any given day and there is a need to account for each one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll bring the Minister\u2019s attention to page 3 of the regulatory impact statement\u2014which was presented last night\u2014and the policy aims that the Government says it has around the stability of the system and the predictability of the system. It goes to the broader point that the law should be known and knowable. If the setting is four years, it\u2019s quite difficult for people to predict exactly when the account should occur. This would have been a legitimate point to raise in the last amendment to this, as well, because in that formulation of years there is still some vagueness around that, and it would be useful because it does make a material difference to when consumers buy products and when these transactions occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022 data-id=\u002232d52b2a45ba410caa929fee844265a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232d52b2a45ba410caa929fee844265a2\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll take the points in reverse order. The idea that amending the term \u201C4 years\u201D to \u201C94,608,600 seconds\u201D would provide individuals with clarity and certainty is an interesting one. It\u2019s not one we support, and assuming that Amendment Paper 444 is accepted by the committee of the whole House, it would also be inconsistent with the decision of the committee of the whole House. So it\u2019s up to the Clerk, of course, but it may well be out of order for being inconsistent with that previous decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EThe points the member raised are all very interesting in terms of the substance of the policy and the regulatory impact statement, etc., but, unfortunately, the committee has already determined the question of what the substantive policy is or should be when it considered Part 1. Clauses, 10, 11, and 12 amend regulations to give effect to decisions that we have made in Part 1. The analysis of the clause is amendments\u2014if you\u2019re looking at the bill\u2014changing the term \u201C3 years\u201D to \u201C4 years\u201D, or, if you\u2019re looking at Amendment Paper 444, changing the definition of the \u201Cexpiry date\u201D to align it with the new meaning under section 178(3). That is what this Part 2 of the bill does. It amends regulations to give effect to the substantive policy, which we have already discussed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EFor completeness, in the time I\u2019ve got left, and to make sure that I haven\u2019t inadvertently missed out anything that members may have raised in the past three or four contributions: again, consultation was undertaken with the Motor Industry Association and the Imported Motor Vehicle Industry Association. It was technical to understand the impact of any temporary changes. They are best placed to answer questions on technical matters and the impacts on industry. My instinct is that they probably did not express a view on the framing of the wording in clauses 11 and 12 to make it consistent with the amendments in clause 6. I\u2019ve addressed the part about \u201Cyear\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EFinally, the select committee\u2019s recommendations by majority recommended that a further review of changes to the standard will be made, which is what the Government is doing, with a report back by June 2026. To, I think it was Ingrid Leary\u2019s\u2014no, it might have been Helen White\u2019s points around the price of credits, I am advised that the maximum trading price of credits will reduce in 2026-2027 in line with the charges, but the Government policy is to extend the life of credits to 31 December 2028 so that no credits expire during the reduced charge period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eac32f149d894fa0ac22ecceb7393316\u0022 data-id=\u00222e103ad078354f158845f30b654f65ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eac32f149d894fa0ac22ecceb7393316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e103ad078354f158845f30b654f65ab\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002286b734662a544759a895d2d25b937ac8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u00221bcdf1cfe399459a9fcb37bfab8bd656\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221bcdf1cfe399459a9fcb37bfab8bd656\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to Part 2 set out on Amendment Paper 444 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b2bf2cb8ddc34c9ebc085a66ea2e40c6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef378ea600e3427da464815a203b9940\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef378ea600e3427da464815a203b9940\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendments to clauses 11 and 12 are out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003EThe Hon Julie Anne Genter\u2019s tabled amendments to clauses 11 and 12 are out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendments to clauses 11 and 12 are out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002296769596d3884025b9e2a661e08b865d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022485ab05cd7a14985a621307d080d71ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022485ab05cd7a14985a621307d080d71ce\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment inserting the new Schedule set out on Amendment Paper 444 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227f2fc102ce19489a914d419e07798046\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223b0b5096877344ecb4eadde8d5d88005\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5140e7402174b6cab795e397f43e0c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5140e7402174b6cab795e397f43e0c1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to our final debate, which is clauses 1 to 3\u2014\u201CTitle\u201D, \u201CCommencement\u201D, and \u201CPrincipal Act\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022 data-id=\u00227f29a49cde504730a92eaddf835acaff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f29a49cde504730a92eaddf835acaff\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Clauses 1, 2, and 3 are \u201CTitle\u201D, \u201CCommencement\u201D, and \u201CPrincipal Act\u201D, and I couldn\u2019t have said it better myself, Madam Chair. This part of the bill does three things. It sets out the title of the bill\u2014or the title of the Act, to be fair. The Act title will be the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Act (No 2) 2025. Clause 2 sets out the commencement date of the Act. That commencement date will be 1 January 2026. That is required so that we can the system in force in time, and we won\u2019t be accepting any amendments to change the commencement date for that very purpose. Clause 3 outlines the principal Act. It lets the public know what the Act is that this bill amends, and the name of that Act is the Land Transport Act 1998. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003ENow, I know that there are a number of amendments on the Table, some of which make an attempt to possibly improve the bill, and some of which are frivolous and quite rude, really. There\u2019s one there from 3:15:04 which says, \u201CIn clause 3, after \u20181998\u2019, insert \u2018, widely agreed to be an arcane tangle of Byzantine regulations which is difficult to amend\u2019\u00A0\u201D. I mean, the public can take what they want from those kinds of amendments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EIf I look at other kinds of amendments like, for example, the one done at 10:50:28 for the removal of clean car standards\u2014that\u2019s not what it does. The one done at 10:50:29, which says, \u201CNo clean car standards.\u201D\u2014that\u2019s not what it does, although it\u2019s quite clever by replacing clause 2 with \u201CNo clean car standards.\u201D, and so I\u2019ll give you points for trying. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s one there from 10:50:31, which is trying to insert an additional line at the end of clause 1 saying that \u201CThis Act forms part of a series of amendments to the clean vehicle system.\u201D I\u2019m not sure that I\u2019ve seen that at the end of a title before. It\u2019s certainly novel, but it\u2019s not something that we would support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EAnother amendment by Arena Williams to replace the commencement date was lodged at 10:50:32, and we don\u2019t support that, as I\u2019ve mentioned before. One from Arena Williams, from 10:50:33, is trying to change the commencement date to be a date set as determined by Order in Council. We don\u2019t think that\u2019s necessary, as we prefer the certainty of having it as 1 January 2026. Similarly, with the 10:50:34 amendment, we\u2019d prefer \u201C2026\u201D, rather than \u201C2030\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a further one from 10:50:35. Arena Williams would like to say that the Act \u201Cmay be brought into force in stages by Order in Council\u201D. I think that would only increasingly complicate the system, and we want to have legislation which is clear so that people have certainty about these kinds of things. Then there are a couple of other amendments by Dr Xu-Nan which mimic, I think, Arena Williams\u2019 amendments, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EJust in general, we don\u2019t support those amendments. We think that we\u2019ve got it pretty bang on with those three very short, concise amendments, and I look forward to their passage after some rigorous debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad6ead774e5249bd9519e3e7014b74aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad6ead774e5249bd9519e3e7014b74aa\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, I\u2019d like to take my call after our spokesperson just to signal\u2014since the Minister himself has brought up what\u2019s unusual and what\u2019s usual in the titles of bills\u2014that my comments and questions will be around how the purpose of the original bill relates to the title. It is a technical question, and, therefore, I think it\u2019s more appropriate to lead with our spokesperson with his questions, and then come back to that, if I may.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022608f51aa47b54ca8a7dff66cfbbeffcd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: So you\u2019re standing up to speak to tell me you don\u2019t want to stand up to speak just yet? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298c909b6b66a46f9adfd282442e93acb\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: OK, I\u2019m happy to continue, Madam Chair. OK, I will do this, and I apologise to my colleague. However, the Minister himself\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eac32f149d894fa0ac22ecceb7393316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298104efc93ce4aedbdfc1c5880656a47\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Chairperson. The clock seems to have reset to five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022a243bbbbef0440e583a8d24ac3bfabd1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a243bbbbef0440e583a8d24ac3bfabd1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, and I need to point out to the member that she did resume her seat, and so the call has ended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022 data-id=\u002297a9962a1b5749a78a75bac2c1292b9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297a9962a1b5749a78a75bac2c1292b9b\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It might be that the member Ingrid Leary gets her way after all, but we\u2019ll see. I want to comment on\u2014and I don\u2019t intend to make this a lengthy call, but who knows? We have no issue with the principal Act, and, obviously, that\u2019s pretty straightforward in our mind, but the two that I do want to ask questions of the Minister around are the title and commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EFirst, we have the title. The Minister has said that he\u2019s not prepared to entertain any of the proposed changes there. We all know that what\u2019s really important is that when bills progress through this Parliament, they are named so that those who follow them, if they choose to, might be able to actually ascertain what the bill is about. This is going to be called the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Act (No 2). I would have thought that\u2019s quite embarrassing for the Government, because it indicates that there was a \u201C(No 1)\u201D and that they\u2019ve failed to deliver on what it was they wanted to achieve on the first time out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EI know that the former Minister of Transport Simeon Brown is in the Chamber today, and this may be feeling as though it\u2019s a d\u00E9j\u00E0-vu moment for him, because we spent some time previously when we were looking at the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill \u201C(No 1)\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b01c3cba1fee4754b4ae099ff1d272cd\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Every time we come back, it just gets better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1e3b1e7235e4b85bb015ff4c2e78654\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, he says that it gets better. Well, maybe his replacement is doing the jobs that he himself failed to do, and now he\u2019s moved on to another area to stuff that part up in our country, but anyhow\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f8bb6337e4847d88aabcaf579480fca\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not very parliamentary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e75f4608c8a2463795769861863059f6\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I withdraw that comment, Madam Chair. The\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eac32f149d894fa0ac22ecceb7393316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7c5b74cb36d486bb6643f7972636036\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: And apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e9824badec04878b08ce3d2a6d351e0\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: And apologise. The interesting thing is that it would be good to actually have the name of a bill that really did indicate what it was. While the Minister might not like some of the suggestions that have been put forward, there are some opportunities there, I think, to really signify what it is that this bill is about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll move on to the commencement date. There are many opportunities when it comes to the commencement about it coming into effect either on a particular calendar date or on the day after Royal assent. Given that a lot of what is contained in this bill is already timebound\u2014i.e., the figures that are set in terms of what people would have to pay are tied to particular calendar years or are tied to particular aspects in time\u2014why not just have this as an Act that comes into effect the day after Royal assent? It\u2019s a very straightforward question for the Minister. Maybe it\u2019s just that it\u2019s trying to keep it clean so that it kicks in from the new calendar year, but from my recollection, there\u2019s nothing in this bill that really provides\u2014if it was to come into effect the day after Royal assent, what is going to be the implication, if that is the case? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EThese are, effectively, changes to a regime that comes in at a particular point in the calendar year. It might be that there is some sort of indication of trying to give more time to the industry\u2014but just those two clearly discrete questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022 data-id=\u002202ee90c38a7441e8ac601b9159010950\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202ee90c38a7441e8ac601b9159010950\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E I do have a technical question for the Minister, and let me preface this by saying that we\u2019re in the same situation we were in yesterday, where we had an amendment that was purporting to amend a principal Act, but when we looked at the purpose of the principal Act, it was quite different. So my question is different from my colleague\u2019s question, because this is not really about whether there is confusion over the title. Given the impact of what this does in statutory interpretation in judicial review court cases and so on, whether the title is sufficiently clear to be able to give effect to that principal purpose is a legal question under section 5 of the Interpretation Act. The courts would normally look to the title, as has been said, to get an understanding about what it\u2019s about, and in this case it\u2019s very clearly a bill that is quite substantively different from the original bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EMy questions to the Minister are whether he thinks the title adequately reflects the bill\u2019s effect on New Zealand\u2019s trajectory with our emissions, whether the Parliamentary Counsel Office gave advice on whether a more descriptive was appropriate, and whether there were any concerns raised about a possible mismatch between the title and purpose that could affect the interpretation under section 5 of the Interpretation Act, and I\u2019ll add to that question a question as to whether the Minister actually sought that advice. If the Minister didn\u2019t seek that advice, I do think that opens up a serious question about whether he should then look to the amendments from Arena Williams to see if there is a suggestion in there that would better suit the purpose and better suit the statutory interpretation in section 5 of the Interpretation Act that courts would look to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EOtherwise, what we are really doing is kind of creating sloppy law. We\u2019re not providing certainty to the courts. This is the Minister\u2019s opportunity, I guess, to put on the Hansard how aligned he thinks the amendment bill is to the original one so that when it comes to interpreting the purpose, given the title\u2014if he\u2019s not prepared to change it\u2014at least the courts or counsel can refer to the Hansard to help them interpret what the relationship is between this amendment bill and the original Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb1bd611776a4784ab94712be482277a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb1bd611776a4784ab94712be482277a\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E The Interpretation Act was repealed in 2021, and maybe the member can ask her colleague, who was in Parliament at that time. The title does what it says: it calls this Act the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Act\u2014that\u2019s what it does. In terms of its relation to the principal Act, it amends the Land Transport Act. We need to amend the Land Transport Act in order to amend the Clean Vehicle Standard because the Clean Vehicle Standard is contained inside the Land Transport Act. If we were to try and amend another Act, we wouldn\u2019t be able to amend the Clean Vehicle Standard, because the Clean Vehicle Standard wouldn\u2019t exist in another Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EWe won\u2019t be entertaining any changes to the principal Act, nor will we be entertaining any changes to the title, because the title perfectly describes what the Act does: it amends the Land Transport Act in relation to the Clean Vehicle Standard. It is the second time that a bill has done this in this term of Parliament because we are a busy and effective Parliament that responds to the needs of industry, and where we can make things easier for New Zealanders, we will. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022 data-id=\u0022d75f47289ae14bbbbe703f2524860cf3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d75f47289ae14bbbbe703f2524860cf3\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d6136cd41dac46108b9cd3ea9e13e084\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022c69a1d469016484b8df4c4581899625e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c69a1d469016484b8df4c4581899625e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 1, inserting \u201Cand Transition\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a14967a376d94c45b788cc6e04d4c962\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u00220321130a81bb4cba88b42b4f0f7bff6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220321130a81bb4cba88b42b4f0f7bff6c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 1 to insert the words \u201CThis Act forms part of a series of amendments to the clean vehicle system.\u201D is out of order as not being in the correct form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u2019 remaining tabled amendments to clause 1 are out of order as not being objective descriptions of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f2ad068833e04076bf9d5981bbf50352\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u00229142aa3ad7cc49308f6a1ba54cdbb20a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229142aa3ad7cc49308f6a1ba54cdbb20a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 2, replacing \u201C2026\u201D with \u201C2027\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229fe29000de9743308bd1016d91fb4d16\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u00220271347167e04244a5e332b668e66496\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220271347167e04244a5e332b668e66496\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 2, replacing \u201C1 January 2026\u201D with \u201C1 July 2026\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b20b223ede264a018149fefda4eaeaae\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u00228a6aac498ac5431794b5d9c9a68d9f31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a6aac498ac5431794b5d9c9a68d9f31\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 2, replacing \u201C2026\u201D with \u201C2030\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e02ded852f1f47fd9a845ae97de82b27\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u00221b74139699e54fe084e3ba39322d4aca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b74139699e54fe084e3ba39322d4aca\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Arena Williams\u2019 remaining three tabled amendments to clause 2 are out of order as not being in the correct form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003EThe question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 2, replacing \u201C1 January 2026\u201D with \u201Con a date set by Order in Council\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b29398403a494c49bfa5298b24848ca5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bf61129d7cb142869d465b70562c28fa\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd2bb0aa3f8b4875b285f6b8af5e7918\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd2bb0aa3f8b4875b285f6b8af5e7918\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Arena Williams\u2019 four tabled amendments to clause 3 are out of order as not being in the correct form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022819cd02c3aab43d999fb183f50d912f6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000344\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000345\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u00228b160e35f49649f08543486b1b744cee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b160e35f49649f08543486b1b744cee\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, the committee has considered the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill (No 2) and reports it with amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa986f3036094c728b8b4c5b1c3e5519\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa986f3036094c728b8b4c5b1c3e5519\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225a1a9572935e422fbe541687e53f1bb2\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022 data-id=\u0022be9856816d054466a29366f2f71062db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be9856816d054466a29366f2f71062db\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Transport: I move, That the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EToday, we are taking a very big step towards making sure the clean vehicle standard actually works to the benefit of New Zealanders, particularly those hard-working New Zealanders that get out of bed every day, get in their car, and go to work to make sure that we have a great little country. The changes in this bill are about bringing the standard back to what it was meant to be: a practical, affordable way for New Zealanders to spend less on fuel and to reduce their emissions. The standard was supposed to give New Zealanders better access to more efficient vehicles by causing manufacturers to prioritise our market for the supply of their best vehicles with the latest technology. But right now, under current conditions, the key thing the standard is doing is driving up costs for importers and therefore costs for New Zealanders. Almost 86 percent of importers are in a net charge position, and the average net charge per vehicle for those importers is $1,226. These charges risk being passed on to consumers\u2014ultimately, those who are consuming vehicles most likely in the lower end of the market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EThis is happening because under market conditions, importers simply aren\u2019t earning enough credits to offset charges. The system isn\u2019t working as intended, and we risk consumers paying the price. This bill is the first step in fixing that problem. The legislative process we\u2019ve just been through today, and throughout the Transport and Infrastructure Committee and since early August, has improved the steps we are taking in this area. When introduced back in August, the bill made four practical changes to the standard to improve flexibility and reduce compliance costs, and those changes still stand. They are, first, to allow the Minister to recommend uniform carbon dioxide targets\u2014and this came up in the committee debate stage. It allows the Minister to recommend uniform carbon dioxide targets but it also continues to allow them to do variable weight targets. Second, it extends the life of emissions credits from three years to four. Third, it retains the option for importers to borrow credits from future years. Four, it enables credit trading between new- and used-vehicle importers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003ENow, during the select committee stage, industry submissions made it very clear to both the select committee and to Government that these changes alone are not enough. With the current market conditions in place, the standard is too tough, and where those charges cannot be fully offset by credits, we risk them being passed on to consumers, making things more expensive. In response, the Government has, by Amendment Paper, added two further changes during the committee of the whole House stage, which I\u2019m very happy to say the House has accepted. First, to make temporary charge reductions for 2026 and 2027. With the reduced rates, we can expect that most importers will now no longer have to pass charges on to consumers. The second change made in committee was for an extended expiry date for credits earned in 2023. This, on the other side of the balance, protects credit-holders from financial loss due to those temporary charge-rate changes. Both of these changes provide immediate relief while we work towards a more durable solution in the long term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EUltimately, with this system, any system we have in place needs to support New Zealanders to upgrade to newer, cleaner vehicles that cost less to run and support our environmental goals, but they cannot add unnecessary cost to working New Zealanders. I want to take this final opportunity, before we move on to the next speakers, to acknowledge the very many people that have progressed this bill to this stage: to the Transport and Infrastructure Committee and members, to those who submitted on the bill and took the time to make their voices and contributions heard, to the representatives of the vehicle industry for their willingness to continue to work alongside Government and officials for the best outcome for their consumers\u2014and thank you, as well, to officials and parliamentary staff who worked on the bill and to the officials who supported myself during the committee of the whole stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EWith saying that, I commend this very pragmatic bill to the House and look forward to seeing it enacted forthwith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022178c0ed208ad47faa5e7cf93b9de1dda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022178c0ed208ad47faa5e7cf93b9de1dda\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022 data-id=\u002236e085cbb58e435f869bc39efce35ea3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236e085cbb58e435f869bc39efce35ea3\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Madam Speaker. Look, it\u2019s a really sad day when the Parliament has to progress through urgency a bill that has gone through a select committee and then had a very truncated process in the Parliament. The Labour Party will continue to oppose this piece of legislation, as we have done up to this point and through the committee stage, because it is yet another example of the Government stepping away from leadership in this space and doing the right thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EIn essence, what this bill will do is it will water down those policies that really do make a difference in our communities. The changing of this piece of legislation is purely because the Government were not able to put in place any change to the regime that had been put in place to make any real difference. Throughout this whole process, many have been saying that this does feel like d\u00E9j\u00E0 vu, because it was just last year that the former transport Minister was progressing the same law change here in the Parliament to say that things were going to work out and it was going to work, and it didn\u2019t. So that\u2019s the prime rationale behind the Government\u2019s inability to be able to deliver in this space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EThe Parliament has just gone through a committee stage that is an absolute shambles on behalf of the Government. Now, a lot has been referenced around the regulatory impact statement (RIS). We accept that in urgency, you would expect to have some information coming perhaps late to the piece. What we do not accept, however, is that the documentation that the Government relies on as one key piece\u2014one key ingredient\u2014in determining how they will approach things is not actually made available to members of that committee until the committee stage was well under way. Yet we had the Minister say, \u201COh, well, it\u2019s coming. It\u2019s coming. It\u2019s coming.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t blame the staff here on the precinct; I do not want that to be an indication at all. As soon as they got that information, they made it available to members in this House, and it really is an indictment on the Government that they are not wishing to make that information available to outline and to consider and scrutinise the real risks that this bill might bring. It is absolutely shoddy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003ENot only that, but the very RIS that was made available to members looks like some sort of internal document with comments in the column about the fact that the motor industry had said that this term means that and all of those sorts of things. That is absolutely shabby\u2014absolutely shabby lawmaking on the part of this Government, and they expect to put the Parliament into urgency to ram through legislation, yet they\u2019re not prepared to do the hard yards and the work to make sure that the people of this House are able to scrutinise legislation so that we can end up with better legislation. We are doing this on behalf of the public because of the truncated period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EThe other thing is it\u2019s very disappointing\u2014and I accept that Mr Foster referred to this in his contribution late last night\u2014that the Transport and Infrastructure Committee seems to have made its decision to report this bill back much sooner because of the Minister\u2019s reckons and the Minister wants this to happen. Well, that should not be what drives a truncated select committee process and further adds to what is a sham process from a shabby Government around stuff that is not going to head in the right direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003ETo be very clear, the other part of that, of course, is this Amendment Paper that the Minister apparently has been talking about all week. Well, it was only made public yesterday. This is an Amendment Paper that was only made public yesterday that outlined the near 80 percent reduction in fees that would be payable, alongside some other things. How the Government expects members of this House to be able to adequately scrutinise what it is that they\u2019re putting up in a time of urgency is extremely questionable indeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EWe will continue to oppose this bill, because there are a number of changes in it that really don\u2019t serve a positive purpose. The suggestion of extending the lifespan of carbon credits from three years to four years is a prime example of how the Government is prepared to simply water down the standard and how it can be applied to those within the industry. The removal of restrictions in terms of being able to transfer credits between those who import new vehicles and those who may have used vehicles is a further watering down of the standard that was in place. The opportunity to not just tinker with the weight adjustment sort of threshold for vehicles but to basically completely wipe out that entire provision is unfathomable. We all know that heavier vehicles lead to heavier emissions, yet this is a Government that is not prepared to even entertain the thought of maybe having some sort of not a transitional phase but looking at how the actual threshold could perhaps apply differently to those different members of the vehicle fleet based on weight. So this is a Government that is really turning its head in a backward sense and is not prepared to confront the real issues that they face. Of course, they need to take responsibility for this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EEvery year, we are starting to see a continual delay of meaningful action on the part of the Government. As costs continue to increase, as emissions continue to rise, particularly in the transport sector\u2014we all know there is a significant component of emissions that can be attributable to the transport sector\u2014the Government needs to be doing something in this space, and what this bill does is the complete opposite. It actually sends a very clear message that this is a tax cut for car dealers rather than the Government prioritising where it can support households to actually enter the market to ensure that they are on a journey to assist with the emissions profile of this country to make a real difference. It\u2019s on that basis that the Labour Party will continue to oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u00226497b054f0f94cca9d18e4f4dbdcab73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226497b054f0f94cca9d18e4f4dbdcab73\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, it is time to suspend for the lunch break. The House will resume at 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 12.59 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u002253b3b872e72f41f6ad156255eaf5ce79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253b3b872e72f41f6ad156255eaf5ce79\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The House is resumed. For those who watch these broadcasts and might not understand why there is no prayer today, it\u2019s because there was a prayer on Tuesday. Technically, we are still in Tuesday because the House is sitting in urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022db79e38086d145f486bd670cf2f9ddae\u0022\u003EPapers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002255cea8708bbc4dfd93dc701180c18fe7\u0022\u003EPapers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u00226f32c6079d864f1d88b19ca4cf1f1611\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f32c6079d864f1d88b19ca4cf1f1611\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I present the Estimate of environmental expenditure 2025/26: Method and results, reported by the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022491ba47e5e154fb797ba2125c559709a\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e205fb1b01df46f399b65cf1bd7a82c2\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c6e29ae2dbde4aea9104391fb9db41a4\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Conservation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u002292fb38a8574d4667a89391b6a639a9cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292fb38a8574d4667a89391b6a639a9cb\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Conservation: How will his decision to allow commercial ring-netting inside the Hauraki Gulf\u2019s high protection areas while banning recreational fishing affect those who simply want to go out on the boat and catch a feed for the wh\u0101nau?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bab007e25fff4471a1460f7b5378fc2f\u0022 data-id=\u00227fbf2bb1f48646459f83dbfd2bd6dd55\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bab007e25fff4471a1460f7b5378fc2f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227fbf2bb1f48646459f83dbfd2bd6dd55\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E The decision that this House\u2014with the support of the member\u2019s party\u2014has made to approve the Hauraki Gulf marine protection legislation, for the most part, will not affect those who want to go out and get a kai in Tangaroa and Hinemoana, out there in the beautiful T\u012Bkapa Moana\u2014te p\u0101taka kai. They can still fish [gestures to map] over here in the gulf, over here in the gulf, over here in the gulf\u2014actually, in over 80 percent of the gulf, you can go and get a kai out there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bb13de059ab480f86dde91c543ab71f\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement, \u201CWe have allowed the continuance of a small amount of commercial fishing that provides people in the South Auckland community with a source of affordable fish.\u201D; and, if so, is he embarrassed that his successor as Ng\u0101i Tai ki T\u0101maki te kaiurungi said: \u201CTo claim that this decision has been made in response to the impact of cost-of-living increases for M\u0101ori and Pacific wh\u0101nau, and then specifically for South Auckland, as a justification for allowing commercial enterprise in this area, it\u2019s weak.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bab007e25fff4471a1460f7b5378fc2f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c83a9c376fb4e4aad7e0aa1c52785ea\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: I am happy to stand by all the statements that I have made in relation to the protection of Te Moananui o Toi te Huatahi, and also acknowledge some of the concerns expressed by the tumu kaimahi, or chief executive officer, of Ng\u0101i Tai ki T\u0101maki, who recently hosted me, along with a range of other iwi leaders, a range of stakeholders, a range of recreational fishers, down on Beach Road in \u014Cr\u0101kei, just off Hobson Bay, to celebrate the tripling of marine protection in the gulf\u2014albeit it may not be perfect for every member in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb19a29457fb4caba1c9d4f221e4d415\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Is it fair to provide exemptions for commercial operators to fish in the gulf\u2019s new protection areas, or should companies fishing for profit be subject to the same rules as everyday anglers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bab007e25fff4471a1460f7b5378fc2f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022891828dd71d744a0a3b2d922ffcb28d5\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: Can I repeat that I\u2019m very proud that the parties that were represented in the House the night that the legislation was passed\u2014including the member\u2019s party\u2014all agreed that that legislation move forward, notwithstanding there were some reservations by some members in the House that evening. But the legislation has been supported; we have reached a compromise over many, many years, and I\u2019m very proud of tripling the protection in the Hauraki Gulf.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227c71fc0117e45ed80d2a923c1274099\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: What does he think hundreds of recreational fishers are coming together for to protest on Saturday in T\u0101maki to say no to commercial fishing in the gulf\u2019s high protection areas (HPAs)?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bab007e25fff4471a1460f7b5378fc2f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af220e02a3b146f8a7038800677d226d\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: I acknowledge that there continue to be concerns around a range of mechanics that have been implemented through the Hauraki Gulf legislation, but what I say to those fishers is: please, take your lifejackets, play it safe, and enjoy your day out on Tangaroa and Hinemoana and, if possible, get rid of some of those kina barrens while you\u2019re out there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227898ae3ba973456db8bc7753b86be36a\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Whose advice did the Minister take in his decision to provide carve-outs for commercial operators in the gulf: the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries, who had these amendments proposed to him by the seafood industry, or his department, who warned that the changes would be\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201Cincompatible with the purpose of an HPA and would undermine biodiversity outcomes\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bab007e25fff4471a1460f7b5378fc2f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d841ab481bb84a388213ed76423c87df\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: It certainly wasn\u2019t taking the advice of the Green Party in progressing the solution that all of the members of this House approved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dd4e698e0714dd69b434e5f9ab14256\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, leave reference to the Opposition party out and answer the question straight, or say you can\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bab007e25fff4471a1460f7b5378fc2f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223adb9422a4c94e53b532d86766216a58\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: E te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, can I ask the member to repeat his question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217740dba08f840dba7d9c35c1f4238cd\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Certainly. What advice did the Minister take in making his decision to provide carve-outs for commercial operators in the gulf: the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries, who had these amendments proposed to him by the seafood industry, or his department, who warned that the changes would be\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201Cincompatible with the purpose of an HPA and would undermine biodiversity outcomes\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bab007e25fff4471a1460f7b5378fc2f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222f3f02b9cf84e1a9d0da0958c2547c6\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: In my role as the Minister of Conservation, I take advice from a range of different sources, but ultimately, I am very, very comforted that Cabinet and this Parliament have made a decision to progress a tripling of the marine protection in T\u012Bkapa Moana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e814f98f8214dcbb7bb230a32476df5\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: What does he say to the recreational fishers who agree that the carve-outs defeat the purposes of a high protection area and are frustrated that there are no opportunities for public consultation on the changes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bab007e25fff4471a1460f7b5378fc2f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240df4c30552b4dbe9526189bd3a2c650\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: Parliament has spoken. There will be a review period in three years, and, in the meantime, let\u2019s go out and enjoy the bounty of Tangaroa and Hinemoana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528134adfa6c4ba1a72e2cdf9c07bd9e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcabbf4983a242ec90d6b927e83a3275\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the various segments of the moana that have been reserved have the highest level of protection and that the small concessions to help working-class struggling families in South Auckland during winter is an overdue concession?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bab007e25fff4471a1460f7b5378fc2f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7d6082523454e75bafbc973e90fd93b\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: As we are aware, there are a number of compromises that have been reached over decades to build the relevant legislation. The very narrow exception for ring-net fishers is narrowed to a certain type of species at a certain type of year for a certain size of boat, and we are very comfortable\u2014we are very comfortable\u2014with where this has landed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229a7371f2360e40dfa0021976770e22b8\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Auckland\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002284f8db4346204b51af872b70e7282e38\u0022 data-id=\u002221e5c6fb9e4643aa88c0daff1edd30cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002284f8db4346204b51af872b70e7282e38\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221e5c6fb9e4643aa88c0daff1edd30cf\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Auckland: Does he stand by all his statements and actions? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa3553b7d66d4358aa0ab75d4b006271\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa3553b7d66d4358aa0ab75d4b006271\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister for Auckland):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002284f8db4346204b51af872b70e7282e38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ec160a1960d4012b738cc7123b646d8\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Why is he leading a plan to push rough sleepers out of the CBD and on to the doorsteps and dairies of suburbs like Pakuranga without giving those communities additional resources or support? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0d5856445e946d799ba1ba7a0dcc2d3\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there\u2019s a range of things in that question which are completely untrue. The reality is that we are funding additional Housing First places in Auckland. The Minister of Housing and the Minister of social housing have been putting funding into that so that we can find places for people who are homeless to be able to be housed. That is the priority that we have in Auckland, and our expectation is very clear that those Housing First providers who have been funded work hard to make sure they get those people housed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002284f8db4346204b51af872b70e7282e38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287e95968e8984bac92ac420c46ac2c93\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: How can he expect those suburbs, where households are already facing job losses and a shrinking economy, to manage the influx of rough sleepers that will result from his policy? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d24ce09fb24c4126ba05e254336599c0\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, again, the premise of that question\u2014I mean, the reality is she\u2019s reading out the second question on her sheet which she pre-prepared earlier, rather than actually responding to what I actually\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287cb1dda36b74bfa835f91a002d29d98\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9f41d438947462a901d31302f8f121f\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014said in my prior answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e671c98a6e945c8b7607715ac606054\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just stick to the answer, not commentary on how you\u2019re seeing it being presented. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249e102cce6cc4b728a37df64d5ea8b98\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, well, the answer is\u2014as I said in the prior answer\u2014that we are focused on increasing the number of Housing First places in Auckland so that we can find housing for these people, and I\u2019d just remind the member of the previous Government\u2019s record when it came to housing, where they promised 100,000 houses and didn\u2019t even get anywhere close. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df2443fc4e8448028334b5325e06d071\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, that\u2019s enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002284f8db4346204b51af872b70e7282e38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222051da2298964b1b987900ced7acab6a\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement that \u201Cthis government is very focused on Auckland and it\u2019s on a positive turning point\u201D, when 63,800 Aucklanders\u2014up 42,000 in just two years\u2014are now out of work? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8a12d9418d64c3a9d947066f0036130\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The member forgets that when she was in Government, they drove up expenditure, which drove up interest rates, and when interest rates go up, the economy goes backwards. That is what we are fixing, and that\u2019s why our Minister of Finance is so focused on getting spending under control and getting interest rates down so that we can get our economy moving again for all New Zealanders, including Aucklanders, which is exactly what we\u2019re focused on achieving. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002284f8db4346204b51af872b70e7282e38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f4f2c3d9a254563a05557352c17af2e\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Is Auckland still on a \u201Cpositive turning point\u201D, as he\u2019s claimed, when the number of people on jobseeker work-ready in Auckland is up by almost 10,000 in just two years? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a5420b8079f4299ac2b73debca92982\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Look, things are very positive in Auckland, and they\u2019re getting better because, actually, we\u2019re focused on our biggest city and focused on the needs of our biggest city. We\u2019ve got the City Rail Link opening next year\u2014a project started by National, and it will be completed by National. The New Zealand International Convention Centre is creating a buzz in our CBD. We\u2019ve funded the removal of the level crossings. We\u2019re promoting more concerts at Eden Park. We\u2019ve got fast-track legislation in place, which has meant that we\u2019ve consented the Ports of Auckland extension in record time. We are focused on growing our economy in Auckland and on growing jobs and opportunities in Auckland, and that\u2019s the focus that we\u2019ve got across all our portfolios. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002284f8db4346204b51af872b70e7282e38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022761fbb30f54d4a1e9ec8a34c25e35ccf\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement, \u201CWe have a deliverable plan to unlock Auckland\u2019s potential and get our city back on track\u201D, and, if so, why is Auckland\u2019s unemployment rate up 2.1 percent since he became Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022 data-id=\u0022525deb6429404c22b6c9701400cf2917\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022525deb6429404c22b6c9701400cf2917\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister for Auckland):\u003C/span\u003E Well, as I said earlier, when interest rates go up because Government expenditure is out of control, the result of that is that unemployment also increases. That is what this Government has inherited\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0032624a39a46c9960a54eea49cee3a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, stop. A barrage, as I\u2019ve said over and over, is not acceptable, and constantly, effectively, using a raised voice to interrupt the answer to a question is not an interjection; it is a barrage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e9766c776604c2694c256025967a315\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: As I was saying, when interest rates increase because Government expenditure is out of control, the unfortunate reality is that unemployment increases. That is what this Government is fixing. That is what we\u2019re addressing. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve got Government expenditure under control. We\u2019re seeing interest rates drop, which is improving confidence, and that is going to lead to lower unemployment across New Zealand and also in Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002284f8db4346204b51af872b70e7282e38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9879da62cba48b9b247884138bb5002\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: When he said that the \u201CCoalition Government\u2019s plan will deliver for Aucklanders\u201D, did he mean he would deliver 10.5 percent empty storefronts across Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022551e99e07aa748fe99fbdd2b7fa22c32\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: What I was referring to was the work this Government is doing to unlock our biggest city to make sure we\u2019re growing our economy. That\u2019s why we\u2019re so focused on things such as fast-track legislation, which is actually meaning that projects are able to be consented in very fast time, which means that people can then be employed. If you go down to the Ports of Auckland\u2014that Opposition party opposed fast-track legislation\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3328b29922d45208a6112ab33955323\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, that\u2019s enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ab52b6af602455f8c6bbb5156605be7\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: We supported it and there are people being employed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002284f8db4346204b51af872b70e7282e38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c943c710f08b4ebca08729679b588fcc\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: When he said that the \u201CCoalition Government\u2019s plan will deliver for Aucklanders\u201D, did he mean he would deliver more unemployment, more people on the jobseeker benefit, more empty shopfronts, more people homeless, and a shrinking economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa5d69f7d2ed493e8581c27887597985\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if the Opposition was interested in growing the economy, they would have supported fast-track legislation, because fast-track legislation has meant the Ports of Auckland extension has now started construction, which is growing jobs in our biggest city. They oppose those jobs, they oppose the extension of the Ports of Auckland, and they oppose growing our economy, but on this side of the House, we\u2019re saying yes to growth in Auckland, yes to jobs in Auckland, and yes to opportunities for our biggest city and for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f69e364541154310acc120fec00129f3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister remember when Treasury, in the last months of the last Government\u2019s term, predicted all those figures and worse this time in 2025; did the questioner demur and complain and come clean in being transparent or what?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022366ab65290b545b5856b82e43d974254\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I do remember Treasury\u2019s reports that they provided, and, ultimately, that\u2019s why this Government\u2019s been so focused on getting Government expenditure under control so that interest rates can go down and so that we can grow our economy and grow jobs and opportunities. We are fixing up the mess left behind by the previous Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022affdc694b13e4346bf45ddcf8a10804c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb2929110b9e4de593f6e50397159f32\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9da2b3fcf2942409df0c1556dc851c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb2929110b9e4de593f6e50397159f32\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9da2b3fcf2942409df0c1556dc851c1\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent announcements has she made about banking?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022 data-id=\u00227cbf73c38b1a445297ad87e5fe8942de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227cbf73c38b1a445297ad87e5fe8942de\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Last week, I announced the Government\u2019s response to the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2019s (FEC) inquiry into banking competition. FEC, working with the Primary Production Committee, did a very thorough job considering 148 submissions and hearing from banks, non-bank deposit takers, fintechs, financial regulators, and members of the public over a six-month period. I asked the committees to undertake this inquiry, and I thank them for their work. The Government accepts all 19 of the key recommendations, two of them in part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb2929110b9e4de593f6e50397159f32\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3bcef68b4f64d3aafd753485fdf243a\u0022\u003ENancy Lu\u003C/span\u003E: Why was this inquiry undertaken?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abed86c4751546ed90d152320ef6c00d\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Banking plays an extremely important role in the economy and is highly concentrated. The biggest four banks make up around 90 percent of the market and are very profitable. Competition is a key priority to deliver better outcomes for customers. This inquiry had its genesis in the coalition agreement with New Zealand First. It followed a Commerce Commission market study on competition in personal banking services but had a wider scope, including looking at business and rural banking. Helpfully, FEC\u2019s findings echo many of the Commerce Commission\u2019s findings, for example, to strengthen Kiwibank\u2019s role as a competitor in the banking sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb2929110b9e4de593f6e50397159f32\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223edcfbac64f84d9e81760e12d4310b8e\u0022\u003ENancy Lu\u003C/span\u003E: How is the Government addressing the committee\u2019s recommendations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1f86161c83c4120ab00a1196d24811d\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: In many cases, the committee\u2019s recommendations confirm that what the Government is doing, including the Reserve Bank, is on the right track. For example, in July the Government approved Kiwibank Group Capital to undertake a capital raise of up to $500 million to fund the growth of Kiwibank. The Reserve Bank is reviewing capital settings for banks and other deposit takers, it is reducing the minimum capital requirement for deposit takers from $30 million to $5 million, and it is consulting on the ability for entities to call themselves a bank. A lot of work is already under way in the area of banking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb2929110b9e4de593f6e50397159f32\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4359fb82db94da4a03d82f58344bdf2\u0022\u003ENancy Lu\u003C/span\u003E: How has the Government communicated its expectations to the Reserve Bank?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c402bebcf0d440a4ae80865a8e758c89\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The Reserve Bank is operationally independent, but the Minister of Finance has influence at a strategic level. Following the Commerce Commission\u2019s study, I wrote to the Reserve Bank outlining my expectations for how it should take competition into account when making prudential decisions. At the same time, I issued a new financial policy remit. This says that the Reserve Bank should ensure that prudential regulation and supervision facilitates the goal of improving competition while remaining consistent with financial stability. By law, the Reserve Bank must have regard to this remit, and it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b2f5c45d42a433893ae6677b9a7307d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286397a31d16b4a28ac87337ef2558a3b\u0022\u003ECameron Brewer\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b5b60c8f5824064befcae76dca78d0d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Question No. 4\u2014oh.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b2f5c45d42a433893ae6677b9a7307d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb5719346abf4762b58621c46218e4ff\u0022\u003ECameron Brewer\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221c096d06a9e45ae9e01ec5b9c46feb9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh. Cameron Brewer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b2f5c45d42a433893ae6677b9a7307d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca873c98b9944d2ebb40b96f7f36abae\u0022\u003ECameron Brewer\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. In addition to the Government agreeing to all of the banking inquiry\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eba316d5d562420890b47625ab90e571\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. Start a question with a question word.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b2f5c45d42a433893ae6677b9a7307d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a32648c6bde346c89ff6a5aa8ad43ddc\u0022\u003ECameron Brewer\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Government confirm that agreed\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fec2c5e610b48a9a740af1cca6a0a0b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, just a minute, Mr Brewer. There\u2019s no need for the conversation to go on across the other side of the House, or any side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b2f5c45d42a433893ae6677b9a7307d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245c336bec04e4217beed0512b6aa1c49\u0022\u003ECameron Brewer\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Government confirm to agreeing to all the banking inquiry recommendations\u2014two of them in part\u2014and can the Minister confirm that 14 out of the 19 key recommendations were unanimously agreed to by the joint cross-party select committee? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f25ae1c2a914c9a87f3d1ebad676c89\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A very short answer to that very long question, I\u2019m sure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a2da553eab948519f5c793c1296f631\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I understand that\u2019s correct. The bipartisan agreement to 14 of the 19 key recommendations is a positive thing, I observe; clearly, a sign of good chairing. It also indicated that committee\u2019s recommendations have widespread acceptance. I was perplexed to hear, however, that some members opposed the idea of beefing up Kiwibank using New Zealand\u2019s savings. These are, presumably, the same members who want New Zealanders to invest more in New Zealand. Well, that\u2019s precisely what the Kiwibank proposal is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6d4acf983e746e99e91cbe6075f0eb8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll tell you what. I\u2019m not ignoring all of the commentary coming from my left. So bear that in mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e58ccc5e9b2b43ec9b70c6cb45bd4c63\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Food Safety\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022552511d7a9964038a01e32c0030ff913\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022552511d7a9964038a01e32c0030ff913\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Food Safety: What recent announcements has he made about the use of technology in food labelling?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002282e454b54912449789c780bc40f1c715\u0022 data-id=\u0022812f33d1164a43409bc3ec66ca8b6ad1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002282e454b54912449789c780bc40f1c715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022812f33d1164a43409bc3ec66ca8b6ad1\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD (Minister for Food Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Today, the Minister for Economic Growth and I announced plans for a trial project that would bring flexibility to New Zealand\u2019s food-labelling rules while protecting food safety. The trial will allow different labels on products but ensure that any additional information required by New Zealand is available through a digital mechanism like a quick response (QR) code or barcode. This exciting innovation will allow us to keep up with technology change happening across the world and respond to feedback heard as a part of the Government\u2019s grocery competition work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217a70f0a5c0942c49269d51d4df758fc\u0022\u003EDr Parmjeet Parmar\u003C/span\u003E: How will this trial help keep down food prices?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002282e454b54912449789c780bc40f1c715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1ab8fe705284d0eba8a40f204eac0b6\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD\u003C/span\u003E: In our system, all packaged food must comply with the labelling rules in the Food Standards Code, which are only valid for Australia and New Zealand. We\u2019ve heard from food retailers and importers that having to print specific labels for New Zealand reduces the efficiency and is an additional cost, and that, ultimately, has to be passed on to consumers. We\u2019ve also heard that it\u2019s a barrier to new retailers entering the market and creating more competition, which we know will help keep food prices down. This trial will pave the way for pre-packaged, low-risk food to be imported with a label that complies with other trusted countries\u2019 labelling requirements, like the UK or US. That makes sure New Zealand consumers have access to all the information they would normally require digitally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205a8bbba787f4152ae142dcd17085054\u0022\u003EDr Parmjeet Parmar\u003C/span\u003E: How does a move to digital labelling support New Zealand food producers and exporters?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002282e454b54912449789c780bc40f1c715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f5ded88878b43cab6febc02ce09227b\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD\u003C/span\u003E: I have met with dozens of food businesses this year, and it\u2019s clear to me that the strict rules we have for physical labels is a barrier for our exporters as well; for example, I smoke with a\u2014don\u2019t smoke, never have! Sorry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c685850399a4960af9ab1ee223e0a0b\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002282e454b54912449789c780bc40f1c715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b879d162802498ba5a17c0e6d9aaf9c\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD\u003C/span\u003E: Ha! I spoke with a small winemaker in New Zealand that exported\u2014I didn\u2019t have a wine tasting, though\u2014around the world and had to print eight different labels. This is a future where that company could only have to have one label. They\u2019d only have to have one label on the product, and they\u2019d be able to deal with all of those different countries\u2019 requirements digitally\u2014much cheaper and easier. The world is moving to a greater use of this technology for labelling, and I want us to be ready to take advantage of that when it comes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278966b62883347d090eae10f27280c9f\u0022\u003EDr Parmjeet Parmar\u003C/span\u003E: What are the details of the trial?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002282e454b54912449789c780bc40f1c715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e52dcab66eec4851838d93a9f2612600\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD\u003C/span\u003E: Consultation on the design of this trial starts today and will be open for four weeks. The proposal is for a limited trial, with retailers selected from those that register interest. It would apply to products labelled in English, from a mature regulatory system. The intention is that it will run for a year. It will be closely monitored by New Zealand Food Safety, and the results with inform an ongoing work programme to look at a more permanent arrangement for digital labelling in Australia and New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dc7b054bfd304130b141b9d784bf3180\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022 data-id=\u0022be2fd158a2c847c99b009e8a78c99c22\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be2fd158a2c847c99b009e8a78c99c22\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Does he stand by all his statements and actions related to the police front line?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022431c44e96b404fec94dd8cb073e716f7\u0022 data-id=\u0022da43c38570514a3693b255f86be6a506\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022431c44e96b404fec94dd8cb073e716f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da43c38570514a3693b255f86be6a506\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. Our police front line do an outstanding job every single day. They have been leading the Government\u2019s work to crack down on gangs and organised crime, have exceeded the Government\u2019s violent crime and youth offending reduction targets, removed gang patches from our streets, and got out on the beat 73 percent more in the first nine months of this year than in the same period in 2023. The Government inherited a very weak Police executive, which we now know to have had significant integrity issues. On becoming Minister of Police, I made my concerns about their performance clear publicly and in three separate meetings with the Public Service Commission. Weak leadership from the top of any organisation has a flow-on effect, and we have seen that there have been isolated examples of bad behaviour, which Police are actively addressing. I\u2019m confident that the vast majority of our front line are at the high standard that the public expects and are outstanding New Zealanders who serve their communities with distinction every day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f1fe9d3aa6347c494525c53f4ac0410\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Government deliver its coalition promise of 500 additional front-line police officers in two years on 27 November 2025, as originally promised?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022431c44e96b404fec94dd8cb073e716f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e2d64fa5e654facabb68d39585d8c9e\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: As the incoming Government, had we not immediately recognised that there had to be a new focus on integrity and standards\u2014with an increase of the police training course at the Royal New Zealand Police College from 16 weeks to 20 weeks; with the reintroduction of a swimming standard; with removing the overuse of discretion\u2014then it would have probably been very much simpler for this Government to attain that number. The reality is that we are prioritising standards, and I think that the public expect us to do that, and I think the public will also allow us to take the time to deliver those 500 as long as we remain focused on those standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e52b9838fdb84ead8cf9218670bfa74f\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: What date will the Government now meet its coalition promise of 500 additional front-line police officers given that he will not deliver on the earlier promise?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022431c44e96b404fec94dd8cb073e716f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd614e1be72b40759d27de9a8f6a1600\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: We have delivered 250 new police officers. We have 317 currently in training. We have trained and deployed 1,300 police officers over the last two years. We have a strong pipeline of people wanting to join the Police. We have police officers that have left wanting to rejoin the Police, and we have police officers wanting to come back from Australia to rejoin the New Zealand Police. We\u2019re in a good shape.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d4d0cd4bc85416ebd8b44e7af13028b\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Why should New Zealanders trust him to deliver 500 more police when he has shifted the delivery date from 27 November 2025 to June 2026, then to August 2026, and now to September 2026?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022431c44e96b404fec94dd8cb073e716f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc970e2012374dc9a09032d6993add5e\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I hope that New Zealanders can trust me, because on becoming Government, I said that I would resign if we didn\u2019t start to see tangible changes in terms of public safety in this country in the first 12 months. I\u2019m extremely proud of our police. We are meeting our targets. There are over 20,000 less victimisations in this country. We are driving violent youth offending down. We\u2019re now actually policing the gangs. You don\u2019t see gangs taking over provincial towns like they did under the previous Government, so I hope the public do have confidence in this Government, that we are doing great work, that we are making them safer, unlike the previous Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f1b721d876642f8839fda20a1a6182e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: What happened to the perverted catch and release fishing policy posing as a crime policy that we inherited?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022311eba0f075e448993bb59225ea956bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc5fc4533a2947cd91a549eba7101580\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Firstly, there are not supposed to be assertions in questions. Secondly, questions are not supposed to be designed for the sole purpose of attacking the Opposition. Thirdly, you\u2019re not supposed to yell out when points of order are on. So there\u2019s a plethora of things you can choose from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u0022a86fa7e227ca4524ab4a74eb52c30135\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a86fa7e227ca4524ab4a74eb52c30135\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right, so we\u2019ll move on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229020356c41234a7eac268a655b46c38f\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: How can New Zealanders trust anything he says when he can\u2019t even commit to a date for delivering 500 more police?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022431c44e96b404fec94dd8cb073e716f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab372ebc743242f3b8f275c18135db6c\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it does matter to me what New Zealanders think and say. We\u2019re here to serve them and I hope that they can trust my word. I hope that they do understand that we\u2019ve delivered on everything that we\u2019ve promised to deliver. Yes, the 500\u2014we had challenges set in front of us that we were not aware of. We\u2019ve got a fresh focus on standards. I think that\u2019s what the general public of New Zealand want us to be focused on: standards and integrity. We have committed to 500 new police officers; we will deliver 500 new police officers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3fb031566f0459397202d550fc3b5a8\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister got confidence that the coalition partner that helped deliver 1,000 extra front-line police between 2005 and 2008, and 2,338 between 2017 and 2021 is likely to deliver that? Maybe it\u2019s a bit slower than the extra 500 we\u2019re talking about now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022431c44e96b404fec94dd8cb073e716f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8bbfb7894e4472fbcb7fa1fa45043e0\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a very good question, because the previous Government missed their targets, I think, three or four times, on the numbers that they were meant to deliver. The difference this time round is that we\u2019ve missed a target because we are focused on standards. On coming in as police Minister, I could clearly see that there had been a loss of focus on standards and we have introduced that, with integrity as well\u2014a focus on standards and integrity. I actually think the public want to see that, because I inherited a very weak police executive. I\u2019d be very interested to know if that member ever brought forward the fact that they had appointed a very weak police executive that has created a whole lot of issues that this Government is now cleaning up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e4993dc904a43c1afd8b4dcfb5fd2e2\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Will he keep his promise to resign, or will he break that as well, along with his promise to deliver 500\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1d19648918a4d3280cb8ac15144ba1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1d19648918a4d3280cb8ac15144ba1e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, you can\u2019t ask that. Sorry. That\u2019s it. I take it that\u2019s the end of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022344b3732ec594523a00060500930b589\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2e20dc493f34975bc2362b55d1c39fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2e20dc493f34975bc2362b55d1c39fb\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What recent reports has she seen on cellphones in classrooms?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcd4559ea1444239b8e6f8a5e4ffd355\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcd4559ea1444239b8e6f8a5e4ffd355\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s been 18 months since we banned cellphone use in schools, and today the Education Review Office (ERO) published its report evaluating the effects of this change, and it shows that it\u2019s working. The report found that nearly all schools have implemented the phone ban in classrooms, and the policy is already making a difference. Teachers report that students are showing greater focus, academic performance is increasing, and bullying is decreasing. We are relentlessly focused on lifting achievement, and removing distractions from the classroom is an important part of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e48a75ca6ec45a888f886bed264d61c\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: What does the report say about the effects on students?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246edb698ea784a45826addf6840bbc8a\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, by removing the distraction of cellphones from the classroom, ERO reports that the increased ability to focus in class appears to have contributed to learning\u201461\u00A0percent of secondary teachers report student achievement has improved and 69 percent report bullying in their schools has reduced. One student said about the changes, \u201CI think so far [the rules are] positive. There\u2019s no more of me looking at my phone in my pocket \u2026 neglecting my learning in the middle of classes\u201D. Students can be confident that their success at school is a top priority for this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225d3a2b31ba545b58f1723be6ab9f5be\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: What does the report say about the effects on teachers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea9f1b06210142fdad10d131b03bf0ca\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Seventy-nine percent of teachers report that removing phones from the classrooms has improved students\u2019 abilities to focus on their work; 77 percent say removing cellphones has improved student behaviour; and one teacher is quoted as saying, \u201CThis has been one of the best policies the school could have implemented. The cyber bullying was at an all-time high before the policy was put in place\u2014\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002284f8db4346204b51af872b70e7282e38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7305ec5d93047aa8f0a7ce2f2e7a0b8\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: They didn\u2019t actually need you to tell them to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edd05e08108c4ac698f3f89b35b72456\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: This is actually really serious. Cyber bullying is extraordinarily serious, and now she\u2019s saying, \u201C\u2026 students talk to each other, and our students play\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201fe602a4e6a4c748d644d35b0bd58d1\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: What else does the report say?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f29702d7b80471cbbc12196e9ba4785\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the number one recommendation of ERO in their report is to keep the \u201CPhones Away for the Day\u201D policy because it\u2019s making a positive difference to student wellbeing and student learning. In fact, not only does the report recommend we retain the policy, but in fact we maintain the momentum by strengthening it. ERO recommends that we increase consistency of the policy by supporting schools and parents to enforce the ban. I\u2019m now seeking advice on how we can implement these recommendations because, as everybody knows, we are relentlessly focused on raising student achievement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221aadae83fff04c018d6ae5713420e0ec\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Question No. 7, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250976d0070064760b67c67313ddcfd1d\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2184ec52b3e4c76bb26870b0f9e0ea2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait for the House\u2014just wait for the House to hear the question in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c55f81771e994a72a37fca551a008a8e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022 data-id=\u002221614938d56048b398fa7d21b150a643\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221614938d56048b398fa7d21b150a643\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Te Tai Tokerau)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: How does she intend to reduce M\u0101ori unemployment following the release of the September quarter Household Labour Force Survey 2025, which identifies M\u0101ori unemployment is at 10.5 percent compared to the national average of 5.3 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022 data-id=\u002214b36419801741f48f7522c9dcb21a7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002214b36419801741f48f7522c9dcb21a7f\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for Social Development and Employment: I thank the member for her question. On behalf of the Minister for Social Development and Employment, our Government is relentlessly focused on growing the economy and getting people back into work. When businesses have the confidence to invest and grow, it\u2019s good for jobs, it\u2019s good for growth, and it\u2019s good for the incomes of all New Zealanders. The Ministry of Social Development\u2019s community coaching programme and expanded case management service has helped improve employment outcomes for the young, including M\u0101ori, and we are confident our approach is working because despite the challenging times, we have seen an increase in the number of M\u0101ori exiting the jobseeker benefit into work compared to the same time last year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ad2cdbbd4594578b84c3ed10b1fc996\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister commit to introducing targeted initiatives in Te Tai Tokerau to address its 6.3 percent unemployment rate, the highest of any region?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0338d9d9b0b4b92abde50811b9bc0cc\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, of course, there are different challenges across the regions, but certainly the overarching direction must be to ensure that we keep inflation down, we keep interest rates down, and we give businesses across the country the confidence to be able to recruit and take on new job seekers. But it\u2019s also important that we are doing the work to prepare those young people for employment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cb9a32511274f2393673f8f72ff3f5c\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister commit to setting and publicly reporting clear targets for reducing the 14.6 percent M\u0101ori underutilisation in Te Tai Tokerau, which is higher than the national average, to ensure w\u2019\u0101nau can make ends meet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283e062037eb548a18fe607c904c832a2\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: So, again, across the various regions there are varying amounts of unemployment, but the same basic principle applies that we must keep Government spending down, we must keep inflation down, we must keep interest rates down so that businesses have the confidence to be able to take on additional staff. I am very excited about the fact that we have increased by 12.1\u00A0percent the number of M\u0101ori job seekers going off benefit and into employment. So it\u2019s working.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022470a82067ef840569963c467dfc79d91\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that she will provide support to expand iwi-led initiatives such as Te Hiku iwi development trust\u2019s Tupu Plumbing programme, creating employment pathways for rangatahi and job seekers in the Far North, given the rate of unemployment in the region; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6e6f62505a34a73bf281f26dab2c1a7\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: We have a range of job programmes and they are geared to do a range of things. We have, for example, Mana in Mahi; we have the mayoral taskforce, we have He Poutama Rangatahi participants, of which most are M\u0101ori, but aligned with that we also have ensured that we have additional funding going into ensuring there is access for our young unemployed to get into tertiary training so that they have a pathway to employment. I would say that the Far North have been the greatest benefactors of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002229756a55b3b94bf898e0497e9ec6589d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Internal Affairs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022 data-id=\u0022fbdbfaebb45045c38045c6eaa27e6f88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fbdbfaebb45045c38045c6eaa27e6f88\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Internal Affairs: Is she confident that Fire and Emergency New Zealand\u2019s proposal to cut up to $70 million of spending a year will not impact on the safety of New Zealanders or firefighters; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f225b9990b9149c7be81abbd49ab75c8\u0022 data-id=\u00229ee371f0e9bd4cb98df83dbe9b9bdfc1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f225b9990b9149c7be81abbd49ab75c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ee371f0e9bd4cb98df83dbe9b9bdfc1\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Fire and Emergency New Zealand (FENZ) is not proposing to cut $70 million of spending per year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b6fc7cb9635441284c40ee8e86613d4\u0022\u003ELemauga Lydia Sosene\u003C/span\u003E: How will cutting more than 140 jobs keep New Zealanders safe, when these jobs include fire-prevention staff, specialist wildfire roles, and key support staff for firefighters?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f225b9990b9149c7be81abbd49ab75c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225aa72a7e06be450898da21fd9ffa7fb2\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN\u003C/span\u003E: The Fire and Emergency proposal to undertake a restructure, I believe, is a valuable exercise. If you look at some of the quotes that have come from the New Zealand Professional Firefighters Union (NZPFU), there have been concerns about mismanagement, and I take a direct quote here, and it says, \u201CThe failure to focus on the purpose of the organisation\u2014to preserve life and property through prevention and emergency response and instead the focus [on] funds on a bloated management structure focused on corporate culture.\u201D I tend to agree. Where we can find efficiencies, we must find efficiencies for the benefit of all of the people in New Zealand who pay levies that directly fund Fire and Emergency New Zealand. But it is also the case that we have to have more respect than has been in the past for finding these efficiencies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221658f27b592a48cca11193c1a8853b24\u0022\u003ELemauga Lydia Sosene\u003C/span\u003E: How will cutting the Fire and Emergency New Zealand budget keep firefighters safe, at a time when firefighters are telling her they already don\u2019t have the equipment and support they need?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f225b9990b9149c7be81abbd49ab75c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1a0b690509a4870af38a6b261a7367d\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN\u003C/span\u003E: I am absolutely assured by Fire and Emergency that the safety of personnel is their utmost priority. Our Fire and Emergency service does not work without safe firefighters, professional and volunteer. But I\u2019d also make the point that there are no proposed cuts to front-line firefighters\u2014those are essential to New Zealanders\u2019 safety around the community. But where we can find any bloating in the back-office functions, it is important to respect the money that is directly paid by Kiwis through levies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b850ba2a174b4f5b8cc0b8ea77b851c9\u0022\u003ELemauga Lydia Sosene\u003C/span\u003E: Is the New Zealand Professional Firefighters Union correct that these roles are critical to ensuring firefighters have access to the training and support they need to respond to emergencies properly to keep New Zealanders safe?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f225b9990b9149c7be81abbd49ab75c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e8f0491a29f4a4bbe8eb630a64ab6ea\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN\u003C/span\u003E: I believe the NZPFU is correct when, once again I quote, they said, \u201Cinstead the focus [on] funds on a bloated management structure focused on corporate culture.\u201D has been too high. And I am surprised that firefighters would not want to have a more efficient service, I think we would all back that across this country, whether we are in the firefighting service, whether we\u2019re here in Parliament, or whether we are community members wanting to make sure that the trucks come out to keep us safe in our time of need. It\u2019s important that we have a good, efficient service, that is what Fire and Emergency are undertaking. But I\u2019d also just note the restructure is currently a proposal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226d3bba6bc1d499191d9bcb011201164\u0022\u003ELemauga Lydia Sosene\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with David Seymour that the Government listens to and treats firefighters with respect; if so, why have the firefighters had to seek an urgent Employment Relations Authority hearing to make sure their voices are heard?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f225b9990b9149c7be81abbd49ab75c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259501369de50465fb74ac495a85cf3cf\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes; and nobody has to seek anything, they\u2019re currently going through bargaining, and have been bargaining for the last year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f99bffd99494c6ebf60916a8e0dd0f7\u0022\u003ELemauga Lydia Sosene\u003C/span\u003E: Does she take any responsibility for the cuts Fire and Emergency New Zealand has been forced to make, given she restricted funding for FENZ and directed budget cuts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f225b9990b9149c7be81abbd49ab75c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7397303afd244508c709b9a1a025111\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN\u003C/span\u003E: I absolutely take responsibility for the fact that Fire and Emergency need to be more efficient. It should be something that everybody across this House wants to achieve. Where there is any bloating within Fire and Emergency, we should seek to find efficiency. I\u2019m surprised that that member would wish to have bloat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222a8a840d04af4832875bcc8b09a10d94\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc18fca1517544d48a85a448eabd4308\u0022 data-id=\u00220903ce04f0064ffcac8e3adaf5912bd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc18fca1517544d48a85a448eabd4308\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220903ce04f0064ffcac8e3adaf5912bd4\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: What action has the Government taken to protect New Zealanders from stalking and harassment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u00223c33086232244ee493efed4d9f55262e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c33086232244ee493efed4d9f55262e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Paul Goldsmith\u2014sorry, I didn\u2019t recognise you!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022 data-id=\u00222507a61c225242d4ad5f8875a6faaa52\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222507a61c225242d4ad5f8875a6faaa52\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Last night, the Government\u2019s legislation to make stalking an illegal and jailable offence for up to five years passed with the full support of the House. This is an important piece of legislation that has been talked about for many years, and this Government has delivered to ensure that the harm victims experience by such unwanted behaviours is recognised and prosecuted effectively.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc18fca1517544d48a85a448eabd4308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022482c5ed123554cf3982b24c62778328e\u0022\u003ERima Nakhle\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it important that stalking and harassment is an illegal and jailable offence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a56bfd3e88874d61a96d425efd94b55f\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019m sure people understand, stalking and harassment pose a serious threat of serious harm to victims, and the behaviours can be a precursor to even more serious and violent crime. For too long, stalkers have been able to harm their victims through unwanted, persistent, or repetitive intrusions into their lives, causing serious emotional and economic harm with few legal consequences. I want to thank those who campaigned for this change and the more than 600 submitters to the Justice Committee, who bravely shared their own stories, experience, and the impact that stalking and harassment has had on their lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc18fca1517544d48a85a448eabd4308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef16186b55814167964a1389a545e262\u0022\u003ERima Nakhle\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has he received on the Government\u2019s action to protect New Zealanders from stalking and harassment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289fa75dd9ad742788f0008ddd36b1ee0\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The feedback has been overwhelmingly positive, and I quote one piece from Layba Zubair from the Aotearoa Free From Stalking group, who said, \u201CI think this is a very big win. I think it\u2019s important that especially in today\u2019s political and social climate we do acknowledge the wins that we get in advocacy. It\u2019s a good step forward.\u201D I say to Layba: I wonder whether some of those who advocated for the change ever thought that this Government would deliver it, and I am pleased to say we have, with the broad support of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc18fca1517544d48a85a448eabd4308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267ade1fd9eea4b3caffe389386e56855\u0022\u003ERima Nakhle\u003C/span\u003E: What other actions has the Government taken to protect New Zealanders from harm?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b7e8615c3024ab68d7bc0784f53dfa1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f63f51463b44f48a3ea623c86ef7def\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the criminalisation of stalking and harassment is part of a wider effort by Government to restore real consequences for crime. For too long, victims have not been the priority in our justice system. Another thing we\u2019ve done is to ensure that victims of sexual violence have the ability to decide whether an adult sex offender has their name permanently suppressed That, I think, is another important change. The Government has also been reforming the sentencing regime, capping sentencing discounts at 40 percent and amending the principles of sentencing to include the requirement to take into account victims\u2019 interests, as committed to in our coalition agreements with New Zealand First and the ACT Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222a62a443e4d54e3899f95cd7ca841f66\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb30f9c072654da0b7bdc16309572095\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb30f9c072654da0b7bdc16309572095\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: Can he confirm that in 2024 New Zealand had a year-on-year decline in electric vehicle sales of 70\u00A0percent compared to 2023, and, if so, does he concede that his Government\u2019s policies significantly reduced demand for electric vehicles?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022 data-id=\u00220d6058ceca2640899dd16b91f854193b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d6058ceca2640899dd16b91f854193b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, the member\u2019s data aligns with data held by the New Zealand Transport Agency. There are a number of factors affecting the demand for electric vehicles (EVs). Weaker economic conditions have affected consumer demand for vehicles more generally. For example, total vehicle sales are actually down around 14\u00A0percent in 2024 compared to 2023. The global supply of used EVs at the age and price point New Zealand consumers are looking for is constrained, and many consumers who were early adopters and fast followers, I\u2019m advised, brought forward their purchase of EVs in 2023 before the Clean Car Discount ended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2a4011f304143d5a72090ee479b7cf7\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think Simon Lucas, a Mitsubishi dealer, is wrong when he says the removal of the Clean Car Discount caused sales to \u201Ccollapse by 80 to 90 percent\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221525ec6eb9a94f61b3565956926d8067\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There was too much commentary during that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022463bd0bf2b0741bd880abf6e90d8b81b\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Should I repeat it, Mr Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b625e6214ba945d0aac2f1bba9e737e0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6af6187a5824a63baf2378852644fb5\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Is he saying that Simon Lucas, a Mitsubishi dealer, is wrong when he says the removal of the Clean Car Discount caused sales to \u201Ccollapse by 80 to 90\u00A0percent\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5e75233bd77458daf896a51c223e4ca\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m not saying that. He\u2019s probably right on the margins. If you take away free money for middle- and high-income New Zealanders who go out and buy Teslas and KONAs paid for by people who can\u2019t afford to make the transition to EVs, like our hard-working farmers and tradies who were stung with a ute tax, in order to transfer the money to largely middle- and upper-income consumers who wanted to go out and buy a Tesla\u2014no, he\u2019s probably right on the margins, but that regressive, inequitable, stupid scheme this Government did away with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261e0d87575f6440990d51ef463ee7fb2\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Does his Government have an active policy to transition its own fleet by prioritising the purchase of electric vehicles, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e277a269a48847369103f51da0d25701\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: The Government\u2019s focus is not on transitioning its own fleet to electric vehicles; this Government\u2019s focus, as that member should know, is on cost-effective solutions and value for money. We have asked Government agencies to prioritise their focus on that because that is the single best thing we can do for the New Zealand economy, which remains our overriding focus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ec66f70e88d46a7a9771ae0e925d918\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: So has his Government completely given up on electrifying our vehicle fleet because it\u2019s inconvenient for the importers of highly polluting motor vehicles, and what does that mean for our carbon reduction targets in transport?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239215cdc62c047de92a1c7561f908ac5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, electrification of the New Zealand economy is going to occur over time, and it will occur for our vehicle fleet. New Zealanders will make the transition and switch to electric cars and electric vehicles, but we are not going to put into law a scheme, like the previous Government did, that does not work. The simple reality is that the Clean\u2014[Interruption] Well, here\u2019s the reality\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e2b65840e52449d9d8bceab723e16f9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bab7cb68f97c48e5aeee70f460360f78\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014unless there are urgent changes made to the Clean Vehicle Standard that is going through Parliament right now, the price of many ordinary cars that New Zealanders use and buy, both used and new, will rise\u2014in some cases, in punitive ways\u2014on 1 January next year, and the Government is taking action to prevent that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259307150aabf48bbb4399b792a3d4065\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Why did he and his officials only consult the motor vehicle importing industry and not any independent climate experts or anyone else in the development of this legislation; is it because he thinks it\u2019s his job as a Government to respond to the needs of the motor vehicle importing industry and not reduce emissions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271e8b1dc98f949d6bee8d84369cefb1a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: The Government went and talked to the people who import used and new cars because they are the people affected by the previous Government\u2019s stupid policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e25659252e143c9bbe46ddfdd8ae015\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm that it is his Government\u2019s priority to improve margins for the importers of high-emissions vehicles rather than policies that increase the number and availability and affordability of electric vehicles for New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f99d0d345664bafb482156f32595e82\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: No, that\u2019s a mischaracterisation of the policy intent. The Government\u2019s intention, through the changes we\u2019re making to the Clean Car Standard through Parliament right now, is to avoid a situation where people buying ordinary run-of-the-mill petrol-powered cars on 1 January next year pay a punitive amount more to buy either used or new versions of those cars, because of the incorrect and faulty settings of the Clean Car Standard. We are fixing that, and if the members of the Opposition want to go out and raise the price of ordinary cars at a time when many Kiwis are doing it tough, good luck. I suggest they actually don\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6fb0244212b4677bd5321b0525bb25e\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. You\u2019ve forbidden members from wearing the badges of registered New Zealand political parties. Is it permissible for a member to wear the flag of a State that the New Zealand Government doesn\u2019t even recognise, such as Julie Anne Genter wearing a Palestinian flag badge?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022517783e48630452fad00dbaf986dbcf7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s not. As of Tuesday a week ago, as notified to all party whips, that type of display is not acceptable. I\u2019d ask her to remove it or leave the House\u2014one of the two.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dbf34a73c0a44611aac69eb27afdc229\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Vocational Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022 data-id=\u0022555d1f65d516461da08da800d74be093\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022555d1f65d516461da08da800d74be093\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Vocational Education: Does she agree with Skills Group head of consulting, Josh Williams, that vocational pathways are \u201Ccapped and it\u2019s trapped\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022c51ca69da26d42babd9abdb953c6297d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c51ca69da26d42babd9abdb953c6297d\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Vocational Education):\u003C/span\u003E I agree with the full quotation from the inimitable Josh Williams, which the member has paraphrased, and I\u2019ll read the full quotation: \u201CAt the moment there is a lot of fantastic innovation and a lot of very good vocational pathways delivery happening, but it\u2019s capped and it\u2019s trapped in schemes like Gateway and Trades Academies, and there\u2019s little pockets of money here and there\u201D. This is precisely why the excellent Minister of Education and I are working closely to ensure that in the proposed replacement to NCEA, there are strengthened vocational pathways, based on industry-led skills standards, that will provide clear pathways into work or further vocational training.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231234912e8614875b8b55be258588a6d\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Can she assure the House that no young people have been turned away from foundation training under her watch due to a lack of course places?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d74b0e00f39844e4b71086a07ee61f1f\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Tertiary funding has always been capped. It\u2019s not an open cheque book, although the previous Government has, at times, treated public funding like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u00223819a81fbbfd4ecf85588dd2d897dd9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223819a81fbbfd4ecf85588dd2d897dd9a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Try and start again without the barb that makes it look like you\u2019re building the whole question around a political attack. It\u2019s not the role of a Minister being held to account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbc703b630ed49de98eecbc4bbfe73d0\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Tertiary funding is capped.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221295acd046df4c959a17ce464f645a5c\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Will reduced polytechnic courses lead to more or fewer people accessing training?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224a0a5c2036f43dcb81551971dcac40c\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the vocational education sector, and particularly the polytech sector, is going to be far more sustainable now going forward, with the very significant exercise we have done in taking out costings and ensuring that they are viable. They are therefore able to offer courses that their communities need, that their industries need, and that will provide pathways into employment for our young people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281312eee6f0349bb88a55df49bb4fa8d\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Where will people go for work-based training, given her Government has overseen record levels of liquidation in sectors like construction?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de78d425c9db4e58a9afb65916b8ff44\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we\u2019ve been labouring this point quite a lot: work-based learning occurs when employers have the confidence to employ people, and that is for apprentices and trainees as well. So our job of keeping Government spending down, of keeping inflation down, ensuring that there is confidence out in the sector to employ people\u2014that is when there will be more work-based training. That is when there will be more apprentices and more trainees out there gaining skills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9b8a4c4b4314601b4dab5ba1e20b757\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Have non-completion rates for apprenticeships increased since cutting the Apprenticeship Boost to one year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bc2a493f70b4fc5888ab4b05a56d7a8\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, when the Apprenticeship Boost was bought in as a COVID response, there was a huge increase in numbers going into apprenticeships, but unfortunately they weren\u2019t doing the training, and therefore the completion rates were less than 50 percent. That is not a good outcome for those apprentices, it is not a good outcome for the employers, and it is not a good outcome for the Government. We want to have apprentices going into apprenticeships who are progressing through their apprenticeship. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u00221800f0ef164d45b494a5b0d2c5595cbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221800f0ef164d45b494a5b0d2c5595cbf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait for your colleagues to settle down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022403b4de7dc6f4e6fbcadd63b9be7419f\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Will fewer courses, fewer employers, and cutting the Apprenticeship Boost lead to fewer or more apprentices completing their training?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c212bd7091434bd5ade84913da7d45cd\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Having businesses who are confident that the Government has got their spending under control, that the economy is coming back, taking on more apprentices, having more sustainable vocational education providers who are operating in an efficient manner, and ensuring that industry skills boards create qualifications and set skills standards that industry wants will make a much better vocational education system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b2f060f088dd465b987bcb3845083574\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Women\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002242664a30b2084eecaa14aec43ec7cf61\u0022 data-id=\u002219b5f2812223408aa923f3d46fe15c73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242664a30b2084eecaa14aec43ec7cf61\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219b5f2812223408aa923f3d46fe15c73\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK (National\u2014East Coast)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Women: What recent announcements has she made about the gender pay gap toolkit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fbd1a4f910ca4f8e9f839f7c092479e9\u0022 data-id=\u002252efc6c909474f479675f81fc941c921\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbd1a4f910ca4f8e9f839f7c092479e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252efc6c909474f479675f81fc941c921\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG (Minister for Women):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s fantastic to recently see that New Zealand\u2019s gender pay gap has fallen to 5.2 percent\u2014the lowest since records began. While that is a significant milestone, wider gaps do persist for Asian, M\u0101ori, Pasifika, and disabled women. That is why, today, I have launched the second iteration of New Zealand\u2019s first ever Government-backed pay gap calculator, which calculates ethnicity-gender and gender-disability gaps, as well as new resources for small and medium sized businesses and guidance, importantly, for young women to confidently discuss pay at work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242664a30b2084eecaa14aec43ec7cf61\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0846100e5924e858fb2af22cb713835\u0022\u003EDana Kirkpatrick\u003C/span\u003E: How does the expanded gender pay gap toolkit help drive economic empowerment for women?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbd1a4f910ca4f8e9f839f7c092479e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7323795448140b1896e9c1646a51f53\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed, that is my number one priority as Minister. By helping organisations measure and address their pay gaps, we are supporting women\u2019s economic empowerment, enabling fairer workplaces, and contributing to the Government\u2019s goal of economic growth. By supporting fair pay and transparency, it empowers women to achieve their financial security and career advancement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002284f8db4346204b51af872b70e7282e38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a50b5c3c45b04f158a29d17d783301f0\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: What? This is a joke. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3e9f47171cf416093cec3bf9d249da9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hold on. Sorry, before you start\u2014that\u2019s absolutely enough. Just constant barrage is not interjection; it\u2019s just boorish behaviour. Dana Kirkpatrick. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242664a30b2084eecaa14aec43ec7cf61\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022333642aade85434c93feeb6985b56c7e\u0022\u003EDana Kirkpatrick\u003C/span\u003E: What role do small and medium sized businesses play in closing the gender pay gap?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbd1a4f910ca4f8e9f839f7c092479e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220cb9fe3637d4b2ba6710222c763b277\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG\u003C/span\u003E: Well, this Government recognises that small to medium sized enterprises (SMEs) are vital to New Zealand\u2019s economy, so the expanded toolkit includes tailored resources for those SMEs, recognising their unique constraints and providing practical steps to measure and address their gaps. By enabling more businesses to take action, we are ensuring the progress is widespread, supporting women\u2019s economic empowerment and contributing to a more productive and resilient economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259ad972d455243c5909fba06e1e75882\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Can the member reconcile the calls of apparent Armageddon when this Government reformed the pay equity laws with the fact we\u2019ve just reached a record low on the gender pay gap?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbd1a4f910ca4f8e9f839f7c092479e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022648077c91d4e4f098ada60331203645f\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for that question, and indeed\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221368667367e34f85866f413967caae10\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a moment, the Hon Nicola Grigg. The House will maintain its decorum through the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbd1a4f910ca4f8e9f839f7c092479e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293f7ae5621ef4a689dc4ce9947556647\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for that question, and indeed it would appear that those doomsday predictions did not eventuate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242664a30b2084eecaa14aec43ec7cf61\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022585caa9b2cde46b38bcefe63596cb9b3\u0022\u003EDana Kirkpatrick\u003C/span\u003E: How does addressing pay gaps for women from all backgrounds contribute to the Government\u2019s broader economic goals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbd1a4f910ca4f8e9f839f7c092479e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e54b1a0b345a4e7ba4b4a7f9b04a75fa\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG\u003C/span\u003E: By closing pay gaps for women from all backgrounds, we do unlock the full potential of our workforce\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002284f8db4346204b51af872b70e7282e38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eeca334b93b34b339c27e1e93e0e5183\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: This stuff is going to be great on social media\u2014can\u2019t wait.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fbd1a4f910ca4f8e9f839f7c092479e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270866a59dbb149b0acce98adc415b5a0\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014we drive productivity, and we support sustainable economic growth, Ms Sepuloni. Fair pay and transparency empower women to achieve financial success and career advancement. This Government delivers results, not just empty PR.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002284f8db4346204b51af872b70e7282e38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022923164be9b9f43f3b4f72e41fe1dc5be\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Worst Minister ever for women\u2014the worst Minister for Women ever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234ef751d65324253a95e6d32fd6b653d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK. I\u2019ve warned that member a number of times. The Hon Carmel Sepuloni will leave the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni withdrew from the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227621aa65fb9249cd978df57a6441c990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a56ea862163e4a8382a2f3f4e448654e\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Question time\u2019s over, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fc3c86b4e774c01bbad9bed6e15b7b5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member Willie Jackson\u2019s willing to go with her\u2014away you go. Your choice, in this case. Actually, that ends oral questions for the day. We\u2019ll take one minute while those who have to leave the House for other business to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ef01939ccb5d48e48411b0a2c369c662\u0022\u003EPoint of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227d96b27933154350863a353c4166d6a8\u0022\u003ESpeaker\u2019s Ruling\u2014Wearing of Lapel Pins\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022 data-id=\u002255b98e86e4cf4cf583bcc973004ea58d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255b98e86e4cf4cf583bcc973004ea58d\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Musterer\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. I just have two quick matters to raise. The first one is that I did note as the leader of the ACT Party was walking out that he was wearing an ACT Party pin. I just wanted to note that we genuinely take issue with the fact that wasn\u2019t picked up. The second thing is\u2014and this is a genuine attempt to clarify the ruling\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7cc8845f957441e80fcb8c9ce0f14b9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, just a minute. Sorry, there are people engaging in conversations while a point of order is being taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288b7befe5aec49879f8a016051bc3748\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: The second matter that I wanted to raise is just a genuine attempt to clarify the ruling you made in relation to clothing designed to convey a political message being unacceptable. I genuinely am seeking clarification as to the scope of that. It\u2019s a matter of whether you are telling us\u2014in which case, I\u2019m quite happy to follow with my colleagues in relation to that\u2014that you deem any flag to convey a political message. For example, do flags in relation to another State convey a political message or, in this case, does it only apply to the Palestinian flag? Otherwise, it\u2019s hard for me to be able to provide adequate guidance, as the Green Party\u2019s musterer, as to whether it only applies to the Palestinian flag or whether, for example, other flags including the American flag or Israeli flag also would apply when it came to rulings on pins of flags conveying political messages. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227e50a653178490c9170fac2d680622f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I\u2019m going to come back to you with a better outline than clearly was provided in the first case. We come now to the interrupted debate on the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill (No 2). The debate is resumed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224e377f34c4fa48e0ab1228e6b2f819d5\u0022\u003ELand Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220a99f0cdcb604007a3bf358314b051f0\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000586\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1fb0fff6a5342f4a3388351cd11f442\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1fb0fff6a5342f4a3388351cd11f442\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand has an incredible opportunity in electrifying its economy and particularly electrifying its vehicles. Most of our electricity generation is already renewable and we have huge scope for increasing the capacity. But we don\u2019t actually need a huge increase in capacity to handle electric vehicles because electric vehicles can be charged off peak, so it helps pick up the excess supply that is already there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003ESince coming into office, this Government have taken just about every possible step they could to discourage the transition to electric vehicles, despite saying they\u2019re in favour of electric vehicles and having electric vehicles being pretty much the only policy they were relying on to help reduce emissions from transport in the medium to long term. The first thing they did was axe the feebate, known as the Clean Car Discount. That policy is objectively incredibly successful at supporting the uptake of zero-emissions vehicles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EIndeed, during the submissions to the Transport and Infrastructure Committee on this bill, we had Isuzu New Zealand come in and hold this graph up as an example of why we didn\u2019t need standards or a feebate, saying, \u201CLook at how we had mainly internal combustion engine vehicles being imported and suddenly there was a big increase in electric vehicles, in hybrid electric vehicles, and plug-in hybrid electric vehicles.\u201D Well, ironically, what the graph shows is the success of the Clean Car Discount and then the Clean Car Standard which came in after it because it\u2019s precisely at the time that policy was announced that you see the large increase in low- and zero-emissions vehicles coming into the fleet and the point at which it was repealed by this Government, which led to an increase in internal combustion engines being imported as a percentage of the fleet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EThere is no good excuse. The Government will point fingers to excuses, but here, in their own regulatory impact statement\u2014which was belatedly provided to the House this morning in what looks like draft form\u2014there is a graph called \u201CFigure 5, International Comparison of Electric Vehicle Sales\u201D. As you can see in this graph\u2014which people at home might not be able to see, but I\u2019ll explain what it says\u2014it shows that New Zealand\u2019s percentage of electric vehicle (EV) sales, as a percentage of car sales, rapidly declined from 2023 to 2024 by 70 percent. During that time, globally, EV sales increased by 15 percent. They are now higher in Australia\u2014last year they were 25 percent\u2014and they\u2019re higher in Canada. They\u2019re higher in the United Kingdom\u2014the United Kingdom and Australia obviously being left-hand drive countries like us\u2014and they\u2019re much, much higher in China.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re in a context where the world is rapidly adopting electric vehicles and we stand to benefit from that, and we have a Government that is taking every step to make it harder to get electric vehicles. They increased road-user charges for electric vehicles to a point where they\u2019re being charged roughly double what an internal combustion engine might pay for the amount they drive on the roads. Of course, this was all thanks to the previous transport Minister, Simeon Brown, who seems firmly committed to increasing carbon emissions and is in total denial of climate change or economics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EYou don\u2019t even have to care about climate change to think that electrifying our vehicle fleet is a good idea. It makes economic sense, but we do need policies to show leadership. Otherwise, New Zealand gets taken advantage of by the motor vehicle industry, which is, you know, people building cars in other countries. There is no question that fuel-efficient technology is a little bit more expensive and they can\u2019t mark up the vehicles as much. The reason the vehicle industry spends so much money and such effort on driving demand for utes in their advertising\u2014not for work purposes but, you know, as a sort of lifestyle option\u2014is they are high margin for the vehicle industry. What is good for the vehicle industry is not good for New Zealanders. We waste more money on imported fossil fuels just to get around and it\u2019s the vehicle industry that benefits, not to mention we pay the health costs of that and we will pay the climate cost of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EYet again\u2014and we\u2019ve seen it with the tobacco industry and this Government, and we\u2019ve seen it with oil and gas exploration and this Government\u2014at every turn they seek to subsidise and make it easier for vested interests and polluters to make more money at the expense of public good, at the expense of our health, and at the expense of our future and our climate. That\u2019s what this Government is all about. They try to pretend it\u2019s sensible, but the reality is they are only listening to vested interests and they are ignoring the objective benefits that New Zealand can get from good public policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EAll around the world we have seen what is effective at driving fuel efficiency. It\u2019s not, as the member Simon Court claimed in the second reading, just the vehicle industry naturally improving efficiency; it\u2019s been Government policies in other countries, like in Germany, Japan, the EU\u2014even the United States at some points has put in place fuel economy standards. In the case of Japan, they\u2019ve actually regulated and mandated that every car manufacturer uses the most efficient technology, and when that happens, we get more efficient vehicles. So, it\u2019s really the vested interests who are looking to maximise their profits, not to increase the public good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EEveryone in the world benefits from fuel efficiency, and electric vehicles are roughly twice as efficient as fossil fuel vehicles. Even if an electric vehicle is getting its electricity from a coal-fired power plant, it is lower emissions than just burning diesel or just burning fossil fuels in an internal combustion engine. Internal combustion engines are only about 12 percent efficient. They do not convert that energy well into forward motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EWe get enormous benefits from electrifying, but what this Government fails to understand is we need leadership. The Government is there to be the responsible party, providing the incentives, and those are price incentives at the point of purchase of a vehicle, which is what the feebate did. It was incredibly effective. It\u2019s also taking other steps like Government procurement. By focusing on procuring electric vehicles, the Government would help hold up the demand for electric vehicles, and then that flows through to the secondhand market. We\u2019ve had it laid out in the regulatory impact statement that officials say we\u2019re not going to get enough secondhand EVs from Japan. Well, that\u2019s why we should be facilitating the importation of more brand-new electric vehicles now, because most New Zealanders are not buying brand-new cars. Most New Zealanders do not buy brand new cars; it is businesses that primarily do that, including Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EWhy are we watering down the standard and providing an incentive for the new-vehicle importers to import more polluting vehicles? That just means we\u2019re going to have more second-hand polluting vehicles in the market in five to 10 years from now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EThis isn\u2019t about protecting consumers. It is about protecting vested corporate interests and it is to the detriment of our economy, of our people, of our health, and of our climate, and is a classic playbook. Whether or not the Government is openly corrupt and supporting these interests or whether they\u2019re just totally incompetent, it doesn\u2019t matter, the outcome is the same: New Zealand loses out. New Zealand loses out from political parties that focus on culture wars rather than sound public policy that is going to deliver for New Zealand. If we go out there and talk to the average person on the street, most of them understand the concept of the feebate and they agree with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EOf course, we heard repeatedly from the Minister in the chair, James Meager, that supposedly the emissions trading scheme (ETS) is going to solve this problem. Well, we have decades now of evidence that the ETS does not result in efficiency gains. It\u2019s right here in this graph. We had an ETS; it did not result in improving fuel efficiency. It did not incentivise EVs. It has to be at the point of purchase of the vehicle. That worked. Even vehicle importers themselves have said this. You know, we had Simon Lucas of Simon Lucas Mitsubishi who said that the removal of the Clean Car Discount caused sales to\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201Ccollapse by 80 to 90 percent\u201D. If we go out there and talk to renewable electricity providers, to charging providers, they all say they can\u2019t make the numbers work on increasing chargers or increasing supply because demand has been cut off. It is Government that supports demand through policies like an effective Clean Car Standard, which works really well with an effective price incentive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders watching at home, it\u2019s very clear: if they want a Government that is going to show leadership and support them to get the benefits of cleaner vehicles, of lower fuel bills, of cleaner air, of quieter vehicles, then we need a Government that is going to show leadership and not simply cave to the interests of a polluting industry. It is a sunset industry. We will become a dumping ground for polluting vehicles. We already are until we get a change of Government, and the Greens have demonstrated practical policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002281a465eb20294645bc63efa635c80cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00224376034b45cd4a52b7bc549a17774176\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281a465eb20294645bc63efa635c80cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224376034b45cd4a52b7bc549a17774176\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s been an interesting\u2014well, I suppose it\u2019s one day, but\u2014couple of days listening to the contributions coming from the other side. The amount of times I\u2019ve heard the \u201Cclean vehicle discount\u201D used as a phrase, and I know that\u2019s the official phrase, but in working New Zealand we called it a ute tax for a reason. It was a clean vehicle discount for the wealthy, and it was a ute tax on the workers, the farmers, and the producers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281a465eb20294645bc63efa635c80cbf\u0022\u003EWell, we have scrapped the ute tax and today we will be scrapping the other side of the supply and demand equation. We will be getting rid of this abhorrent way of influencing the market that has not provided the goods that were promised. All we\u2019ve seen is cars stacked up in importation hubs, unable to be sold because New Zealanders don\u2019t actually want what the demand influencing - other side thinks they do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281a465eb20294645bc63efa635c80cbf\u0022\u003EACT is the only party who has consistently stood against this, and we will see it gone if we ever can. It adds costs without the benefits. We have an emissions trading scheme; we don\u2019t need this sort of market manipulation. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022 data-id=\u00222ce62542c5074b62afb41aec924f8762\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ce62542c5074b62afb41aec924f8762\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Mr Speaker. Look, it\u2019s been interesting listening to the Opposition, because the Opposition has asked us for evidence. I think that was you, Mr Shanan Halbert, wasn\u2019t it? The Opposition said that the Government has bowed to industry pressure. Well, that\u2019s nonsense. Actually, what the Government has done is it has listened to evidence. It\u2019s been quite clear both in the Transport and Infrastructure Committee and also to the Minister very clearly that the system as it is set up with the assumptions that are set up behind it was not working and so it needed a change and that is precisely what we are doing at the moment. We\u2019re not doing away with it. We are changing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also been told that the last Government did not even consult with the industry on the scheme\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b807e69353f4752b2b9d0572e087808\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f66477b755d48408faa958e4e3d8734\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and the assumptions so they got the settings wrong. You\u2019ve had your turn\u2014you\u2019ve had your turn\u2014Julie Anne Genter. The Opposition\u2019s position is bizarre. When they are faced with a scheme that quite clearly is not working their approach is to say, \u201CLet\u2019s double down. Let\u2019s keep on doing it. Let\u2019s do even more of it.\u201D It\u2019s that situation of saying, \u201CWe\u2019re going to keep the beatings going until morale improves.\u201D It doesn\u2019t work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EIf you look at what the regulatory impact statement (RIS) says, the objective of the clean vehicle standard is to increase fuel efficiency, to reduce emissions, and to do so \u201Cwithout placing a net cost on to consumers\u201D. It is failing that element. That is the problem with the current scheme. Without changing, vehicles will be more expensive. That\u2019s what the RIS says. These guys on the opposite side keep on quoting the RIS; that\u2019s what the RIS says. The RIS says that without change, vehicles will be more expensive, some models will not be available, there\u2019ll be more limited opportunities, and some manufacturers might even abandon the New Zealand market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EWhat it also says is that\u2014and we\u2019ve had the concept of dirty cars being talked about by the Opposition\u2014New Zealanders will tend to hang on to their vehicles longer, so they will become older and dirtier as a result. So that, from the Opposition benches, would be an own goal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThe Opposition has also said that Government is incentivising higher emitting vehicles. That\u2019s completely untrue. What we\u2019re trying to do is take away those distortions to the market. It\u2019s not putting an extra tax on them\u2014sorry, it is simply not putting an extra tax on them. The Opposition, meanwhile, has also been busy trying to spend that extra tax revenue, ignoring the fact that the whole scheme was not supposed to raise any tax at all. It was supposed to be net revenue neutral.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThe Opposition\u2019s also criticised the speed of the report back and the legislation and the RIS is very clear about the reason for that as well, because this scheme, the new charges, will come into effect on 1 January next year, so we have to act with some speed. That is exactly what we are doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThe Opposition said that we risk becoming a dumping ground for dirty cars. The RIS, again, says that the risk really is that New Zealanders will hang on to their older cars longer, so they will be more polluting as a result. The simple reality is that Kiwis are voting with their wallets, with their feet, and they are buying the vehicles that they want to, not the vehicles that the Opposition wants them to buy. I heard Helen White saying that we, the Opposition, can lead the way to what Kiwis want to buy. We can drive this industry the right way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s really scary. The words, \u201CI\u2019m from the Government and I\u2019m here to help.\u201D are some of the most scary words\u2014scary words\u2014in the English language we\u2019re often told. But they\u2019re taking it one level further. \u201CI\u2019m from the Government and I\u2019m here to tell you what to do.\u201D That\u2019s what they want to do. They want to take choice away from New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThe one thing the Opposition have not contested is that the scheme as it is set up does not work. They\u2019ve railed about it, but they have not contested that. It doesn\u2019t work because Kiwis are not buying as many electric vehicles (EV) as predicted when they designed the scheme without consulting the industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003ENow, the Opposition then says it\u2019s the coalition Government\u2019s fault for cutting the EV Clean Car Discount. What they haven\u2019t acknowledged there is that by agreement\u2014and they were part of this as well\u2014the EVs and plug-in hybrid electric vehicles entered the road-user charges system, so, obviously, they were less attractive than they were once they got to 2 percent of the market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThey\u2019ve also ignored, as we\u2019ve already heard from my friend Cam Luxton, is that the Clean Car Discount was being paid for by our hard-working farmers; our hard-working tradies, through the infamous ute tax; and also, by hard-working taxpayers everywhere. By the end of 2023 when we got rid of that system, $579 million had been paid out to subsidise Teslas and the like; $290 million of that had come from the hard-working farmers and tradies; and $302 million had come from the hard-working taxpayer. That is not a sustainable scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003ETradies and farmers would under their model, if they had what they wanted, pay three times\u2014not just once but three times: at the border, through the clean vehicle discount, on the purchase of the ute, and through the emissions trading scheme charges on fuel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThis bill was about softening the scheme a bit. It was about trying to make it work. The majority on the select committee could see that when the bill was introduced it was only moving deck chairs on the Titanic. This is about clearing, giving the industry and New Zealand car buyers some breathing space. The Minister\u2019s amendments do not cancel the scheme. The industry\u2019s actually said it doesn\u2019t want the scheme cancelled, but it does want time to be able to work it through, make it workable so they don\u2019t end up with a very, very large bill. This makes the Clean Car Standard realistic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EFinally, over time it is a good thing to have a lower emission vehicle fleet. Technology is improving. The Hon Julie Anne Genter talked about Government supporting high fuel use vehicles, but the reality is the biggest funding challenge for the transport system, the land transport system, is the improving efficiency of vehicles across the fleet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EWhat that means is there is less money available to put into roads, public transport, etc. That is continuing, regardless of what Julie Anne Genter says there. That is good for the environment, because that\u2019s technology improving. It\u2019s good to reduce those fuel import costs. But what we have to do is to manage the transition, to be realistic about what vehicles are available\u2014we can\u2019t magic vehicles in; we don\u2019t make those vehicles\u2014for Kiwis and Kiwi businesses with all our diverse vehicular needs and the vehicles we need to buy now. I want to finish off just by saying thank you to all the people involved. I commend this very sensible bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022778f33392f9e420c9093945686240157\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022778f33392f9e420c9093945686240157\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E We\u2019re in urgency so the Government can get more dirty gas-guzzlers into the country through the most inaccurately named Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill. Nothing says \u201Cclimate denial\u201D more than this\u2014urgency for more climate pollution. We\u2019ve had, from this Government, cuts to the methane targets; we\u2019ve had, from this Government, opening up oil and gas; we\u2019ve had, from this Government, the desire to open up coal mines. Yesterday, at the Boston Consulting meeting, the Associate Minister for Energy talked about the need for oil and for gas and for coal, and half-threatened the gentailers with making them buy more coal to fuel our nation, assuming we were going to have cheaper power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EI had an opportunity to visit West Wind this morning, where there are 62 wind turbines and 143 megawatt installed capacity; Mill Creek, nearby, has another 26 turbines. There was a lot of discussion about the chaos in the political space around sending signals about the electrification of our nation. When we cut demand, such as cutting the Clean Car Standard, we are sending a signal: \u201CDon\u2019t worry about building that generation. There\u2019s not going to be the demand for it.\u201D When we send a signal that we\u2019re not going to invest in new renewable electricity generation and we\u2019re going to invest in more gas, we send a signal to that sector that we don\u2019t really care about electrification\u2014don\u2019t necessarily invest. The sector is really concerned by the inconsistency\u2014by the chaos of this Government\u2019s direction in electrification. This bill is doing exactly that; it is saying, \u201CMore dirty gas-guzzlers.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve seen demand for clean cars that has plunged off a cliff, as my colleague Julie Anne Genter pointed out, when the Clean Car Standard was taken away. That\u2019s a really clear signal of Government action causing more climate pollution\u2014a really clear signal. The Minister seems to have assumed that it\u2019s hard to get a supply of low-emission vehicles. Well, it\u2019s hard to get a supply when you say, \u201CWe don\u2019t want them.\u201D It\u2019s really hard to get a supply when you say, \u201CWe don\u2019t want them any more.\u201D When Polestar brought all of the vehicles into the country for the Clean Car Standard, then had to sell them at a discount\u2014a heavy discount\u2014and made losses because of this Government\u2019s just tanking the market, well of course there\u2019s not going to be the supply, because people don\u2019t trust us any more. We have lost trust. That\u2019s the problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EIf a country like Ethiopia, with a fleet that\u2019s only one-third of the size of New Zealand\u2019s fleet, has as many electric vehicles (EVs) as we do, why the hell can\u2019t we get the EVs here? It\u2019s because we have a Government that is fossil fuel focused\u2014that\u2019s the only reason that we can\u2019t get the EVs here. Sixty-three percent of new cars sold in China last year were EVs. We\u2019ve heard from Cameron Luxton that only the wealthy buy EVs. Well, my son\u2014my youngest son\u2014his first car bought was a $5,000 Leaf. This is what happens when we bring EVs into the country; they move into the second-hand market, and people move into EVs\u2014and they don\u2019t go back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EThe question also is about tradies. Now, my electrician has a number of EVs\u2014he only drives EVs, and his team only drive EVs. Some of the farmers in the deep South have replaced their vehicles with EVs or with e-bikes, because so many people in rural Aotearoa understand the electrification journey\u2014but this Government doesn\u2019t. This Government is full of climate denial. They want a dumping ground\u2014a dumping ground for the most toxic, dirtiest vehicles you could get from around the country. This bill gives us laxer standards than China, the UK, the USA, Canada, and South Korea. It is shameful. It moves us further from our climate ambitions, puts us further in line for $24 billion of cost\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211ca4e887b1b4501af9fb6db4a244a2e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df23ed9a7102406f9899558fb3841582\u0022 data-id=\u002267b5342892584424b8c49e58af620f7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df23ed9a7102406f9899558fb3841582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267b5342892584424b8c49e58af620f7b\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E This amendment bill addresses industry concerns that the clean vehicle standard is misaligned with the vehicles that New Zealanders actually want to buy, and the industry cannot meet the target until more no-emissions vehicles are produced at scale. The changes in this bill improve workability, provide regulatory certainty, and keep the standard credible while supporting our shift to a lower-emissions fleet. Once again, common sense trumps ideology. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022 data-id=\u00223eda30c556514be8b1609f2b94723e99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223eda30c556514be8b1609f2b94723e99\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Labour\u2019s continuing to oppose this bill, obviously, for obvious reasons, because it takes New Zealand backwards and we shouldn\u2019t be surprised about that, because almost everything else this Government has done has in some way, shape, or form just taken us backwards. Ten points, at least, for being consistent and for having another congruent day in this House when we just edge ourselves a little bit back to the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a shame, though, because this is the very time when we should be speeding up and moving forwards. This was the time where we started to make some of the gains and started to actually reap some of the rewards from the earlier policy settings that would have just afforded us some real gains in that direction. When we think about the infrastructure that would have been due to come on board\u2014because the more electric vehicles in the fleet, the more demand there is for charging infrastructure, the more demand there is for the technology advances, for the talent, for the good jobs, for all the other good positive things that go with that. But no, this Government has said, \u201CWhy don\u2019t we just chuck the other side of this demand and supply equation out? We already got rid of the Clean Car Discount and now it\u2019s time to chuck the other side out.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EI commend Cameron Luxton from the ACT Party for at least being honest and being the only person on the Government side of the House to stand up and say that they just didn\u2019t like the whole thing. They just don\u2019t believe that the State has any role in directing future direction. I fundamentally disagree with that, but at least they\u2019ve said the writing on their particular tin, because an active State does play a role. Almost nothing good in history has happened without the impact or without the direction at some point, rather, some point through a process of a good active State, whether that\u2019s through investment, whether it\u2019s through incentives, whether it\u2019s through just really good savvy policy or funding appropriately. To say that the only good policy and the only good direction is for the State to take five steps backwards and have no input into the future direction of New Zealand is just nuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders, I believe, do want cleaner, cheaper to run vehicles and they want a Government, fundamentally, that treats climate action as if it\u2019s something that\u2019s real, not something that\u2019s optional. For every Government backbench MP that walks around their electorate waxing lyrical about the merits of doing something in the space of climate action and has the audacity to then come into this House when they have an opportunity to not vote for something that does the opposite, that is the definition of hypocrisy. Those MPs need to be exposed for having two faces\u2014on one side in their home electorates, talking to groups and organisations and sympathising with the need to do more in the climate space and then coming here and doing absolutely the opposite and doing nothing to help what should be a collective task.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EThe bill weakens the clean vehicle standard; it simply does. The bill makes it easier for importers to delay progress and harder for us to meet our emissions goals. Rather than pushing for cleaner cars, which was the direction that we were heading in\u2014it\u2019s been said before and it\u2019s worth repeating\u2014it simply responds to industry pressure for looser rules. It does so for no other reason than a temporary need to do so. There were other opportunities to provide the relief that was required without having to go down this path.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EExtending the credit life slows down the transition. Credits were meant to drive year on year improvements\u2014as perfectly acceptable in the design of these policies, of this suite of policies, of these dual policies. Extending them from three to four years simply lets those importers push obligations into the future and that just doesn\u2019t really make any sense. It doesn\u2019t make the obligation go away. It doesn\u2019t actually do what I think the Government thinks it\u2019s going to achieve and provide the relief that they think it\u2019s going to achieve. It just means that we\u2019re going to have to deal with this in some other way in the future. If you give people more time to comply, they\u2019re going to use that extra time and not necessarily turn their minds to adjusting the types of behaviours or the settings that they\u2019re involved in to make that work, and emissions stay higher for longer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EThe credit trading rules encourage higher emitting used imports. We\u2019ve heard several contributions about that throughout this bill\u2019s progress through this House\u2014this bill\u2019s unusual progress through this House. Allowing credits to move freely between new and used importers, the so-called two-for-one rate, absolutely risks tilting the market towards older, less efficient vehicles. We know that that will happen. The regulatory impact statement (RIS), the various iterations of the RIS\u2014the one that we eventually got late last night but wasn\u2019t available to us today till it was tabled at the committee of the whole stage, and the one that was prepared in regard to the first iteration of this bill\u2014spells that out. You know, there are some things that are just basic, and we should have taken them into account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EOn this side of the House, we certainly believe that good policy shouldn\u2019t create loopholes that reward the highest emitters. This is another example of a bill and a piece of policy that\u2019s doing just that. By removing the weight adjustments without strengthening the targets makes compliance easier, but certainly not cleaner. That is a fact. Taking away the weight adjustments without also targeting the overall targets just makes it easier for heavier and higher polluting vehicles to meet the rules\u2014meet the rules. The Government has removed, essentially, the stabilisers and loosened the rules at the same time\u2014so it\u2019s a bit of a double whammy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EOverall, this bill slows decarbonisation, as many of my colleagues have already said throughout earlier iterations of readings, and leaves families worse off. So even if you\u2019re not incredibly passionate about climate action, even if you could barely muster any enthusiasm at all for the concept of climate action, everybody in this House should be exercised to some extent about making life a little bit easier for household budgets and for looking out for the long-term affordability of a vehicle fleet. Particularly for people that have very few options. Particularly for people who rely on the fact that new electric vehicles may, and do, gravitate down to the used market and therefore become much more readily available for people in that price band.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EThe outcome of that is that over time, eventually, if you maintain this, you know, if you stay the action, maintain the course, keep the faith in the policy settings that were designed well, then the outcome is benefit and common good for everybody. But no, this bill is all about lowering those expectations, lowering ambition, lowering pressure on importers, and lowering New Zealand\u2019s pace of change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EActually, there are lots of things this Government could be doing if they wanted to face the concept of lowering. They could be lowering unemployment, they could be lowering the cost of living, they could be doing all sorts of things. They\u2019re not choosing to do any of that; they\u2019re just choosing to lower our expectations and lower ambitions in this particular sphere. We could have, and we can still have delivered cleaner vehicles, lower fuel costs, and a transport system that actually meets our climate goals. All it would have taken was a little bit more ambition and a little less knee jerk reaction, as evidenced most graphically through the way that this bill was handled at the committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EAt the committee stage, due to report back in December, the chair of the committee clearly has a conversation with the Minister. All of a sudden, we have to report it back to the House that day. We come to the House; we come prepared for a committee of the whole House stage to find that the Government itself isn\u2019t prepared to be able to conduct those proceedings effectively or well. So therefore, there\u2019s no other graphic example of the fact that this is all completely knee jerk, not well thought out, and here we find ourselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EThis bill weakens the standards; it slows decarbonisation and leaves us further behind. For those reasons, Labour absolutely does not support this bill, and we are, in fact, proud to oppose it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4f36aa2be4447bcb0cea7c3f473ece2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4f36aa2be4447bcb0cea7c3f473ece2\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m a big fan of electric vehicles; I\u2019ve got two in our household, and I welcome the pragmatic changes that we\u2019ve made to this bill to ensure a fair, efficient, and balanced sustainable clean vehicle system. I do welcome the review of the scheme. I think there are some really fundamental flaws with the scheme, and I welcome the Minister\u2019s six-month review of it. It\u2019s going to keep costs lower, which Ryan Hamilton knows is really key for his electorate, and all of our electorates around the country, with the cost of living pressures. With that, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022 data-id=\u0022844c02e4c5134869865862168cf788f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022844c02e4c5134869865862168cf788f9\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I got myself in a bit of a hot water in an earlier session on this bill, and it was because I talked about the impact on children. I don\u2019t want to repeat the mistake, so I think I\u2019ll just stick to my children and my grandchildren. I said at that time\u2014and I\u2019m being now quoted in the Herald as talking about my \u201Chopeful\u201D grandchildren because I don\u2019t have any, I just want them. I want them to be in an environment where they don\u2019t get asthma. I have a niece who grew up in an area of Auckland where there\u2019s a dip, down in Freemans Bay, and she has had quite bad childhood asthma, and I don\u2019t want that to be repeated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EWhat we have here is a bill that\u2014and I want to focus on this one issue, because I think it\u2019s a good thing to contribute in that way. I think it\u2019s important that we actually think about the realities for our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EI represent Mt Albert, and it has an area in it called Wesley now\u2014that\u2019s in the new boundary change. It\u2019s right down in the dip by the motorway, and it\u2019s had a lot of State housing, so the houses have sort of stopped for a while, so they\u2019re not necessarily as well insulated as they would be, because the Government has decided not to rebuild that area\u2014there was a big plan to rebuild it. They are in the area most impacted by that motorway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EI went in and had a look at a report from the Department of Public Health at the University of Otago. It was released in July of 2022, and it was talking just about the pollution that is the impact\u2014that is clearly accepted by everybody here\u2014of greater emissions; it\u2019s something that\u2019s going to happen. So there are two types of pollutive material. There\u2019s one called particulate matters, and then there\u2019s the nitrogen dioxide, and that\u2019s the big one from cars. There\u2019s $15.6\u00A0billion of damage done by pollution in this country, and a fair part of that is from nitrogen dioxide, from the emission of petrol and diesel cars\u20143,300 deaths per annum in Auckland alone. Sorry, in Auckland alone it\u2019s just over 900; it\u2019s 3,300 deaths per annum across the country. It\u2019s 13,100 hospital admissions. That\u2019s a lot of people. It\u2019s contributing to childhood illnesses, it\u2019s contributing to premature deaths.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EThat was one of the reasons why I was incredibly proud of being on the Transport and Infrastructure Committee when we brought into place the law which had this that\u2019s being reversed today, and it had a subsidy to electric vehicles. I, too, shared some of the scepticism about a subsidy on first, brand-new electric vehicles, and I worried\u2014just as Minister Bishop is worrying\u2014about the impact on families who couldn\u2019t afford those vehicles. But I was quickly convinced that what happens is those vehicles run through the market. Wealthier people buy them and they run through the market and you end up with a lot more electric vehicles. And that\u2019s what happened. That\u2019s why Scott, my friend Scott Wilson, who talked about his\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b2f5c45d42a433893ae6677b9a7307d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b76519360784814bd812592f3f0fdd9\u0022\u003ECameron Brewer\u003C/span\u003E: Willis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237fb26b3be444af682491f549b51e1e6\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry\u2014Scott Willis, who talked about his child being able to buy a $5,000 Leaf. He could do that not because it was a first-hand vehicle but because it was a second.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EAs I said in my last speech, I do respect that it\u2019s different if you\u2019re a tradie. I do respect that it\u2019s a very different thing, and I do respect the need for choice. But I think it\u2019s a myth to suggest that that overrides everything else. When you weigh death of children in my area with great amounts of choice which is unnecessary\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b2f5c45d42a433893ae6677b9a7307d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222741a3f992774953887d775cdf7725a9\u0022\u003ECameron Brewer\u003C/span\u003E: Not your area, it\u2019s their area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b29eb8df9ec642d09334e11a8c019085\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014when you weigh that\u2014and you do have to weigh it\u2014guess which wins? For the Labour Party, it\u2019s actually making sure that we clean up our environment and that pollutant side too. And, actually, it is my area. I am very proud to represent the area, but I also live in the area of Mt Albert and I have for a long time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s incredibly important to me that this isn\u2019t a political football that gets misrepresented as some sort of attack on working people, because it\u2019s the working people in those houses. It\u2019s the working people who need to have safe housing, they need good jobs, and they need clean air in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229ad9f402f06844c586a6f2f904712412\u0022 data-id=\u002219d5e0207b9b4e259dbf05805e3629fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ad9f402f06844c586a6f2f904712412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219d5e0207b9b4e259dbf05805e3629fe\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. This bill is practical and it\u2019s affordable. The importers are currently having to pay more, and that, ultimately, lands on the consumers, who are the tradies and the farmers. This bill takes the pressure off Kiwis still dealing with the fiscal spoon of medicine that the last Government dealt up to them. If the members of the Opposition want more Kiwis using electric vehicles or hybrids, then guess what? They need cheap, abundant power. They should have voted for the fast-track bill, because there\u2019s a shortage of renewable energy, and that\u2019s in large part due to the rash decision to ban oil and gas and a complete failure to plan. I commend this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022 data-id=\u00229907513c6b0645ba85d44f3d05014f11\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229907513c6b0645ba85d44f3d05014f11\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s good to rise today to speak on the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill (No 2). I\u2019ve been listening to the contributions across the House, and particularly very keenly to Government members and the contributions that they\u2019ve made, because, in fact, it is the Government that has called us in, in urgency, for what they believe is an urgent bill. This land transport amendment bill seems to be urgent to this Government and the legislation that they have to put through. How is this an immediate priority for the average New Zealander that is sitting at home, dealing with the economic mismanagement of this Government and, in fact, the cost of living crisis that they promised\u2014they promised\u2014to clean up? But they just haven\u2019t been getting ahead. It\u2019s a dismal, dismal failure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EIn listening to the contributions from the other side of the House, I was intrigued to hear one of the National Party MPs say that he owned two electric vehicles, and when questioned by Opposition members as to whether he received the subsidy, there was no answer\u2014no answer. Opposition members continued to ask, \u201CDid you receive the subsidy?\u201D\u2014no answer. I\u2019d take that as meaning that that particular National Party MP did indeed receive the subsidy for his electric vehicles\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ea8d231f4e948c19f942d51a4ae19bf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f98fd8d495f454299bf6f0e9ada6e13\u0022\u003ELaura McClure\u003C/span\u003E: Does he need it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291a6580595d8402a98383b0df37bf28e\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: But he received it, and the importance of that is that the Government is advocating from a cost perspective that suddenly this impacted on the cost of working people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EI remember that in this legislation when it was initially put forward before our Transport and Infrastructure Committee under the last Government, one of the goals there was to really clean up the fleet of cars that New Zealand receives at the very bottom of the world. Everyone acknowledged that we had a problem because of our proximity to where cars and vehicles were made across the globe. It took a while for them to get their way via Australia and then back down to Aotearoa New Zealand, and so it\u2019s not an easy task in that sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EBy influencing the market, the intention was to be able to create a cleaner fleet of vehicles that were available to New Zealanders\u2014those that can afford them, like the National Party MP. He might be able to afford it up front\u2014or two, in fact\u2014with the subsidy, I\u2019ll say. But, in turn, New Zealanders do tend to buy second-hand cars, and that is normal for the average New Zealander. So second-hand and third-hand cars became cleaner over the generations that they were passed down, and that\u2019s an important part. By changing this back, we, in fact, continue to hold and grow the number of dirty cars. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EWhen we think about the emissions contribution that our transport fleet makes in Aotearoa, it was 43 percent at the time that we discussed it\u201443 percent of emissions came directly from our transport fleet. That\u2019s a significant amount, and so we needed to make tweaks in the ways that we could in order to reduce the emissions in different parts. For those of us who live in T\u0101maki-makau-rau Auckland, unless you\u2019re a tradie, it\u2019s unnecessary, really, for us to purchase utes as our primary vehicle. It\u2019s very difficult to get around through congestion in a large vehicle in Auckland. We tend to be one passenger per car still, and that is largely problematic for us and it\u2019s the reason why we experience such significant congestion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EIf the argument of the Government members today is that this is about reducing costs, then I\u2019d put it back on them that, actually, things have become more expensive in transport under their watch. What we\u2019ve seen is road-user charges (RUCs) go up. What we\u2019ve seen is the introduction of congestion charging, and\u2014don\u2019t get me wrong\u2014we support that. But it\u2019s still an additional cost to the average worker that is driving from A to B. Warrants of fitness have gone up. Driver licensing is no longer free. As an alternative, the cost of public transport is double what it was two to three years ago, simply\u2014well, I blame that one directly on Simeon Brown, because he cut $1.2 billion out of Auckland to save for road projects outside of Auckland. So poor old Auckland Council has had to actually prop up and ensure that people can use our public transport fleet, and that was something that I raised within the debate on the congestion charging legislation that was before us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EThis is quite a backwards move, and I come back to the point that, within urgency, the role of this House is to consider legislation in a timely way. We\u2019ve heard about the issues within the select committee process, but it was also disappointing today that we didn\u2019t have a regulatory impact statement on the Table. We had a Minister answering our questions and waving a regulatory impact statement that none of us had access to, and all he could say was, \u201CWell, it\u2019s available on the website.\u201D\u2014no. We knew we were going into urgency at least 48 hours ago. Why has that information not been made public and available for us\u2014the Opposition\u2014to do our job? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c01400a9cbf474c88d6fed00e84afcc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fea1838ca6314b2e92df3c70dac1d155\u0022\u003EReuben Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s he hiding? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c94d150baf974ec98dc159ca69b913ad\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: Certainly, what are they hiding, and we\u2019ve seen that over consecutive weeks. That is of concern, not only to myself but particularly to our communities out there. They\u2019re wondering what the heck is going on with this Government, because it just doesn\u2019t seem focused on the things that matter. It hasn\u2019t created a response to the cost of living. Instead, here we are, in urgency, sitting until Saturday, debating the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill (No 2). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EOur view is very clear. We laid that out in the dissenting view. The bill prioritises short-term convenience\u2014that is a symptom of this Government; the \u201Cshort-termism\u201D\u2014and the convenience for importers over meaningful emissions reduction. Extending the carbon credit lifespans from three years to four years undermines annual accountability and it will slow decarbonisation. There are new trading rules between new and used importers, despite a two-for-one ratio risk, incentivising more used, higher-emitting imports. The bill creates loopholes that allow older, less-efficient vehicles to remain dominant in the market, instead of shifting the fleet. This is a missed opportunity to strengthen the clean vehicle standard, and this particular bill before us today, in urgency, is weakening just that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t know what the Government is focused on or where the Government is focused, because for the average person, this isn\u2019t going to make a difference, but particularly to our future generations, with global warming and\u2014yes\u2014with climate change happening, actually, the little decisions that we make today will count for a better tomorrow. But, instead, for the National Government, the National MPs, the ACT Party MPs, and the New Zealand First MPs in the House today, this is their priority. This is how they\u2019re responding to the needs of New Zealanders when they\u2019re stuck in a cost of living crisis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EBecause of this Government\u2019s economic mismanagement, they haven\u2019t been able to change a thing. They\u2019re putting up an argument today that it\u2019s going to save New Zealanders money\u2014what a load of whatever\u2014when, in fact, their Government has increased costs in transport every single way that we look at it, whether it be RUCs, whether it be the warrants of fitness, or whether it be public transport. This is a terrible bill, and I do not commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266d6872f24ce4f77ba5ac75f0fc62c76\u0022 data-id=\u002270dda0cc014042ff90bf07fda44970fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266d6872f24ce4f77ba5ac75f0fc62c76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270dda0cc014042ff90bf07fda44970fa\u0022\u003ESUZE REDMAYNE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. The rules imposed by the previous Government were ridiculous. They were too stringent, and they caused unnecessary costs. This bill\u2019s about reducing the cost of living, which the people on this side of the House are relentlessly focused on, and it\u2019s about backing our farmers and tradies and reducing the import fees on their loved workhorses, like $1,000 on a Hilux over $1,400 on a Mitsubishi Triton. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002291ca9c56496a42c8a9023447b5691ebd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Land Transport (Clean Vehicle Standard) Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000669\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d3edceb925c745c5b62fe4d8c77e5903\u0022\u003ETelecommunications and Other Matters Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b37d319019994aedb6c09c171a9c7b00\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022 data-id=\u00220c5fc91c23b247bfb4ec05bfaa167f31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c5fc91c23b247bfb4ec05bfaa167f31\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for Media and Communications: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I present a legislative statement on the Telecommunications and Other Matters Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226793964e70ca473285c4d27cb1e0eda2\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287bfcebc2db24f83a410e56566b82953\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Telecommunications and Other Matters Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee to consider the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EI\u2019m pleased to introduce this bill on behalf of the Minister for Media and Communications. This is one of two telecommunications bills that make targeted changes to support competition, foster innovation, and help stimulate economic growth. The Minister sought for these bills to be associated, but the request was not successful. This omnibus bill will ensure that overseas telecommunications providers are explicitly subject to telecommunications regulatory obligations, where relevant, to create an even playing field between our home-grown telcos and those offshore. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003ELike many of us, the telecommunications regulatory regime did not anticipate that we would be buying mobile and broadband services that aren\u2019t in New Zealand, but the market is evolving quickly and it is expected that more and more telecommunications services will be delivered to New Zealand by offshore providers. The fact that our telecommunications legislation doesn\u2019t explicitly capture these providers creates uncertainty for the telco industry, regulators, and, of course, consumers. While existing telco providers operating in New Zealand are committed to complying with our telco law where it applies to them, this gap could create problems for us in the future, particularly if a regulator ever wanted to enforce a breach against a provider that was not cooperative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EThis bill makes it clear that telecommunications providers that offer services to Kiwis can be subject to our telco law. This has two main benefits. One, an even playing field supports competition in the New Zealand market. It means that a Kiwi company won\u2019t have more regulatory costs than an offshore company that might be able to skirt beyond the rules. Two, it also provides an additional layer of consumer protection for Kiwi consumers, because it will be clear to anyone retailing to New Zealanders that they must comply with relevant consumer protection obligations in the telco Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EThe bill also creates a bespoke enforcement mechanism to address non-compliance by using radio spectrum licensing. While our preference is to use existing enforcement mechanisms for breaches of telco law, which means that action is taken through the courts, some offshore providers may not be willing to engage with these processes. This new power is intended to be a last resort, and the bill includes a number of considerations before the power can be used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EWe welcome new innovative technology providers, particularly ones that provide high-quality connectivity services for New Zealanders. This bill is about making sure that our regulatory regime, which is about promoting competition and protecting consumers, keeps up to date with the rapid pace of change in the market. I encourage members and the public to have their say on this bill through the select committee process, and in the meantime, I commend the Telecommunications and Other Matters Amendment Bill to this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u002211599c417c724979b51ee2f4d168aa8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211599c417c724979b51ee2f4d168aa8e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222c01400a9cbf474c88d6fed00e84afcc\u0022 data-id=\u0022afd86040d7804c6fb3a2d8a41f04ab4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c01400a9cbf474c88d6fed00e84afcc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022afd86040d7804c6fb3a2d8a41f04ab4b\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a privilege to stand and take a call on the Telecommunications and Other Matters Amendment Bill, and it\u2019s a privilege because we know that connectivity is absolutely critical. We know this is an important part of our resilience across New Zealand. We are vulnerable to ever-increasing changes in weather patterns, and that resilience of connectivity becomes critical in those times of response, but it\u2019s also critical for us so that we can take our place on the world stage. There are opportunities across New Zealand, opportunities that often look like jobs and industries that can continue to grow. Now, these can and should be able to be based anywhere in New Zealand, and connectivity is often the barrier that allows that to happen or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c01400a9cbf474c88d6fed00e84afcc\u0022\u003EWe know that the world seeks us out. It seeks New Zealand out for our innovation, for the kinds of things we can create, for the kinds of products and services we can provide. So we should do everything we can to remove the barriers that isolate us and instead do what we can to enable New Zealand and New Zealanders to deliver to a world that is waiting. So Labour does support the efforts to modernise the regulation of the telecommunications sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c01400a9cbf474c88d6fed00e84afcc\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders, especially, as I\u2019ve said, in those rural areas, are increasingly reliant on extraterritorial communications or telecommunications infrastructure, such as our low Earth orbit or LEO satellite services, and we\u2019re seeing those both from Starlink and also from Amazon Web Services with Project Kuiper coming online here in New Zealand, ahead of many other parts of the world. We need to make sure that these providers are subject to the same regulatory obligations as the companies with greater physical infrastructure here as well. And we need to make sure that those who live in rural or remote places are not left behind as a result through their use of the kinds of technologies, and in many cases the only kinds of technologies, that are available to them by virtue of their geography.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c01400a9cbf474c88d6fed00e84afcc\u0022\u003EThis bill is part of a programme of regulatory reform to ensure that the environment the telecommunications sector operates in is fit for purpose and in line with changes that are occurring, and occurring rapidly, in the market. This bill amends the Telecommunications Act 2001 to ensure that overseas telecommunications providers who provide services to end users here in New Zealand are subject to the regulatory obligations regardless of whether they or the infrastructure they rely on is based in New Zealand or not. If we\u2019re talking about low Earth orbit or higher, then often a large part of that infrastructure is not based here in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c01400a9cbf474c88d6fed00e84afcc\u0022\u003EThese regulations include the telecommunications development levy, minimum requirements for emergency calls. We need to make sure that those dangerous black spots where you cannot seek the support or assistance that you will often need\u2014need to be able to provide that for us. The bill also amends the Radiocommunications Act 1989 to create an enforcement mechanism to provide that radio or spectrum licences may be revoked, suspended, or restricted when or if telecommunications providers do not comply with their obligations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c01400a9cbf474c88d6fed00e84afcc\u0022\u003ENow, as the introduction speech from across the House alluded to, the Minister for Media and Communications asked for this bill to be wrapped into the other Telecommunications Amendment Bill that had its first reading last week, but the proposals in both bills are qualitatively different. I must admit there were two reasons I was surprised that the Minister asked to associate the bills: the first because the area and scope of each bill is so different, and the second because for a Minister who promised immediate action 18 months ago and has done next to nothing since, I would\u2019ve expected keeping the bills separate would\u2019ve at least kept up the premise that he\u2019s busy and doing things in this portfolio space when, in fact, he is doing very, very little.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c01400a9cbf474c88d6fed00e84afcc\u0022\u003EI think, because we support this bill, it\u2019s important to come back to why. We support this bill because it\u2019s critical that we keep New Zealanders connected. It\u2019s also critical that consumers are on a level playing field. So we will support this bill to make sure that happens, but we do expect to see more from the Minister in this space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022 data-id=\u002247a31ebf2b4144e8b4a879f79c7259b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247a31ebf2b4144e8b4a879f79c7259b5\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Green Party is supporting the Telecommunications and Other Matters Amendment Bill. We also note that there could have been an opportunity to have this bill grouped with the other telecommunications bill that is in front of us, but we agree with the previous speaker that there are two distinct issues here that we need to address.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EIn relation to this bill, we support it, and we note that it is important that Parliament is able to adapt as new technologies emerge and key services change the way that they provide things like internet to our communities. For example, we\u2019ve got services like Starlink, which can provide internet in some parts of our country. While I acknowledge that right now, through gaps within the sector, Starlink has become a relatively big player when in areas where perhaps there is little internet access, there is now a gap because there could be\u2014and providers that, effectively, don\u2019t have to set foot into the country for people to be able to access those very same services. Those providers may be owned by billionaires who may not always be seeking to represent the best interests of our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EI think it is important that this bill helps us create regulatory requirements that, basically, bring those in line with providers that would be operating, literally, physically onshore. Some of these include contributing to telecommunication levies, where the provider meets existing liability tests and legislation; complying with relevant retail service quality requirements, for example\u2014and this is an important part\u2014complying with Commerce Commission codes or the requirement to join a dispute resolution scheme. This is where there\u2019s a new obligation seeking to be established in the other telecommunications amendment bill. That part will, in my view, help support consumers as well, and I think it\u2019ll be important to see in the select committee how this could be tested out in complying with obligations of the Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Act, including those relating to interception capability and network security.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EThe bill also has some related enforcement mechanisms being put in place, and we think that this will be useful to also test out at the select committee stage. The reality is that telecommunications services are becoming more and more essential for people to, literally, be able to move around their daily lives. Access to the internet would have been seen as a \u201Cnice to have\u201D a few decades ago, but nowadays, literally, as our Government moves to digitise more of its Government services, access to things like the internet are, literally, essential services. I think the legislation that we had previously would have not adequately recognised this nor would have anticipated that many of these telecommunication services, as I mentioned earlier, would have been set up in a way that meant some of these internet providers, for example, would not have to set foot in the country. Yet what we do have is, for example\u2014say that you\u2019re a person on income support, living in an area that\u2019s deprived of internet through ordinary means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EThese services could provide a lifeline for people to have the means to, literally, survive. That is power that, therefore, is handed over to, often, corporates that would be running these telecommunication services. Having these regulatory frameworks and requirements being placed upon them is important, because it\u2019s critical that these corporations are subjected to the very same requirements that telecommunication providers onshore would. That\u2019s critical, as well, because when it comes to contributing to telecommunication levies, we know that some of these providers, like Starlink, are owned by people who have a huge amount of wealth, who clearly have huge amounts of resources, and they should be contributing through those levies. We should not be creating them to be exempt from them. It will also be interesting to evaluate, at the select committee stage, how much these levies are likely to provide to the country. So we also look forward to further analysis being made and unpacked at that stage for us, to be able to evaluate the benefits of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EThe Green Party is supporting this bill because we recognise the need for us to build cross-party consensus to modernise our legislation in light of new technology and services. We look forward to our colleagues evaluating this in the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff775135e61c4e95af2c92c58bf12a52\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0a1f78c94fa426aa7b544efa3b33663\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff775135e61c4e95af2c92c58bf12a52\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0a1f78c94fa426aa7b544efa3b33663\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E What an exciting time we live in. Who would have thought, only a few years ago, that this little device [Holds up cellphone] could connect to a satellite in the sky, and, actually, anywhere in New Zealand, you could send a message and soon you\u2019ll be able to speak on it. It really is an exciting time. It\u2019s great to know that, today, I think, we\u2019re going to have cross-party support to send this bill to a select committee so these issues around overseas providers of telecommunications technologies can be looked at. It\u2019s really great.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff775135e61c4e95af2c92c58bf12a52\u0022\u003EWe have already heard that we have a company like Starlink, for example\u2014we have a very high uptake of Starlink connections per capita in New Zealand. That is because of our unique geography, but it does mean that more and more New Zealanders have access to very fast internet regardless of where they live in the country. We are going to soon also have the ability for Amazon Leo, which will be launched next year. I really am looking forward to the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee looking at this, so let\u2019s get the Telecommunications and Other Matters Amendment Bill linked back up with the other bill we passed in the House. I commend this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296e2b39ada204513974da2706fe77f9d\u0022 data-id=\u0022495e1578602540d2a7d33cd47b15e918\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296e2b39ada204513974da2706fe77f9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022495e1578602540d2a7d33cd47b15e918\u0022\u003EJENNY MARCROFT (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m pleased to rise on behalf of New Zealand First in support of the Telecommunications and Other Matters Amendment Bill. As the Parliamentary Under-Secretary to the Minister for Media and Communications, it is a pleasure to stand to speak to this bill, acknowledging the Minister\u2019s contribution in the first reading of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296e2b39ada204513974da2706fe77f9d\u0022\u003ENow, this bill is really important, because it provides clarity to ensure that overseas companies who provide telecommunications services to New Zealanders are, in fact, subject to our telecommunications laws and obligations, regardless of whether they or the infrastructure they are using is based in New Zealand or overseas. The bill will provide a mechanism to also address non-compliance or any breaches of that. It\u2019s an omnibus bill; it amends three pieces of legislation, the Telecommunications Act 2001, the Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Act\u2014also called TICSA\u20142013, and the Radiocommunications Act 1989. These amendments are primarily targeted to satellite providers, but they could in fact apply to future types of delivery that are yet to be developed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296e2b39ada204513974da2706fe77f9d\u0022\u003ESome have mentioned Starlink. Currently, there are about 7,000 active satellites in their constellation. We\u2019ve seen remarkable growth in New Zealand\u2014a significant satellite market uptake here. In 2024, the Telecommunications Monitoring Report noted that satellites serve around 50,000 rural customers; 19 percent of all rural connections are via satellite, and it\u2019s the fastest-growing broadband service in New Zealand at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296e2b39ada204513974da2706fe77f9d\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard about Amazon Leo, and although there is no start date yet for it, they\u2019ll be launching about 3,000 satellites into their constellation when they begin operations. While there\u2019s no confirmed start date, as I mentioned, it is expected to be a major competitor to Starlink, which will provide excellent competition for price and also performance\u2014so that\u2019ll be good competitive pricing for customers in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296e2b39ada204513974da2706fe77f9d\u0022\u003EIf overseas providers are delivering services to New Zealanders and to New Zealand households, they need to fulfil their obligations, and there are three obligations under telecommunications. One is that if they have a gross income of more than $10 million, they need to be contributing to the Telecommunications Development Levy. That levy contributes towards the 111 system and also to the relay service for the deaf, so it\u2019s important that they contribute as a levy for that. The second obligation is that they need to be part of the Telecommunications Dispute Resolution Scheme. Over the last three years, every year, about three and a half thousand people have laid a complaint for some problem with their telco service. Starlink currently doesn\u2019t\u2014there\u2019s nowhere to go for people to complain, so bringing them in under this obligation would be a good thing for those who have a Starlink service. The third obligation is relating to regulations for emergency calling, and including our overseas providers simply makes absolutely logical sense given the essential nature of telco services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296e2b39ada204513974da2706fe77f9d\u0022\u003EFinally, the bill provides clarity for the overseas providers\u2019 obligations under the Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Act, or TICSA, and it makes it explicitly clear that New Zealand legislation applies, and the overseas provider must follow lawful intercept and security requests under TICSA. For these reasons, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022 data-id=\u0022d643b640e8004d2f93aa91bef0baa998\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d643b640e8004d2f93aa91bef0baa998\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to speak on the Telecommunications and Other Matters Amendment Bill in this first reading. This bill is an omnibus bill, as has been described earlier, and it is bringing together a range of modernisations to bring communications Acts into the modern era. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227621aa65fb9249cd978df57a6441c990\u0022 data-id=\u00227312c32514974ab486b7bc455a7919bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227621aa65fb9249cd978df57a6441c990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227312c32514974ab486b7bc455a7919bc\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Obviously, we\u2019ll support a bill that brings a bit of equity out there. It\u2019s a fair-paying bill. It\u2019s going to ensure that our rural communities are all set up. So, obviously, Labour will support this type of bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227621aa65fb9249cd978df57a6441c990\u0022\u003EI think the real question is how useless the Minister for Media and Communications really is\u2014so useless that he can\u2019t even turn up to actually speak on his own bill. The other question is how useless is Jenny Marcroft, but, I mean\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296e2b39ada204513974da2706fe77f9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022558ac54aeb704f14a409f3dee362b425\u0022\u003EJenny Marcroft\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s not appropriate for a member to call out whether a member is in the House or not in the House, as the case may be, as Willie Jackson just did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e20f9a36fd5b4aa5a9654a121dafef11\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. Can I ask the Hon Willie Jackson to refrain from talking about the absence of members in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227621aa65fb9249cd978df57a6441c990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291b73f7ae677476fa950d56d9e9a4c09\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, OK. Thanks, Mr Speaker. OK, well, the real question, then, is how useless is the member for New Zealand First, because she was speaking on the wrong bill. So I\u2019ve just got to ask that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226327e49d349443e693f980fcd245b385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d87fcf97992b475a8e6e232fe36b952c\u0022\u003EJamie Arbuckle\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. That is unparliamentary, and we take offence to those types of comments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022796c1e434c7046fc817634b279eddf9f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Just to clarify, you can\u2019t take personal offence on behalf of somebody else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296e2b39ada204513974da2706fe77f9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b678abc6edb14abba4d74538b2ecef31\u0022\u003EJenny Marcroft\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I take offence at being called useless. I think that\u2019s something where the member clearly was looking in the mirror at himself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d601dd982d15492f96485900b18b5e2d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve got a mind to make you both withdraw and apologise, to be honest, but I\u2019m going to call it a draw and go back to the Hon Willie Jackson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227621aa65fb9249cd978df57a6441c990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230f22f2348ac471f80e913d8f64b34c5\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, thank you. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c009bf080ac848039aed2b1d823cb970\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Please refrain from calling people useless, Mr Jackson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227621aa65fb9249cd978df57a6441c990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022634361ba75ae444f966e7096b83f7267\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227621aa65fb9249cd978df57a6441c990\u0022\u003EThis bill is really important, because in terms of broadcasting\u2014and I want to talk about this in a broader sense, and this is a bill we\u2019ll support, obviously, because they\u2019re both part of a programme of regulatory reform to ensure that the regulatory environment of the telecommunications sector operates in a fit-for-purpose way. So, obviously, we\u2019re going to support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227621aa65fb9249cd978df57a6441c990\u0022\u003EI question and challenge what this Government is doing in this area. We\u2019ve got a spokesperson for broadcasting here who has challenged this Minister to come up with something, to do something, in terms of broadcasting. Still on the Order Paper, we\u2019ve got the Fair Digital News Bargaining Bill. If you really want to help broadcasting, do something, actually do something, for media outlets out there, now, the Fair Digital News Bargaining Bill, which I actually championed in terms of this House, when I was the broadcasting Minister, looks after communities, makes sure that big companies pay their way instead of taking news from the local newspapers. This useless lot on the other side, they\u2019ve got their local newspapers, who\u2019ve been ripped off by big corporate companies, and they don\u2019t care. The Minister of broadcasting doesn\u2019t care, despite giving assurances to the broadcasting world that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296e2b39ada204513974da2706fe77f9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283da3dbf0c5a46d9b6568468b9a86fbf\u0022\u003EJenny Marcroft\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227621aa65fb9249cd978df57a6441c990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243a72a02c0504f82ab25f78e55f0960a\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the digital bargaining bill was on the line. Oh, useless again. OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296e2b39ada204513974da2706fe77f9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f8c356a061e466282af8e9ad4f92515\u0022\u003EJenny Marcroft\u003C/span\u003E: Just bringing the member back to the bill, it\u2019s the communications bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b88226dbe4c64872ad5d9a03ddd53993\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Sit down. I will determine whether he is on par with the bill, is that understood?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227621aa65fb9249cd978df57a6441c990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb588fb6ef6c4fae941dd846c84ab9da\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. For that member, she should know, having been a spokesperson for broadcasting, that the media people around the country are crying out for support. The little people that that member and these members on the other side purport to represent, they are all losing their jobs. The journalist and media industry has halved in the last few years. Newspapers have closed up everywhere. Why? Because this useless Government is doing nothing. All they\u2019re doing is amending bills like this, which anybody could do. You don\u2019t even need a broadcasting Minister to amend these types of bills. A blind man could change these bills. But here\u2019s the question. Do something for the people. We had the digital bargaining bill, we had Newshub close down, and we had all these journalists knocked off or lost their jobs because of this useless broadcasting Minister, who didn\u2019t come up with a plan, didn\u2019t come up with a\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f92b217196564b0abd61258078dbb590\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227621aa65fb9249cd978df57a6441c990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4df9497b6c74a94a1a598b4cec0ec2b\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Come back to the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216fc2efc909f437c9f2b44b8cf89f0d7\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Come back to the bill. I\u2019d be grateful if you came back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227621aa65fb9249cd978df57a6441c990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b057a03f40314725be1b80ef418ac0a0\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I was coming back to it, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee2977108b26457eb39af7fc62411d98\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, come back to it right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227621aa65fb9249cd978df57a6441c990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b759082d4d94b2b812409391e7677ff\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: OK, just for you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022739f6c6ab46048658c35f298feb1d88b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Just for me\u2014just for me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227621aa65fb9249cd978df57a6441c990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7fe33e6694944789a956a75c71a3011\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: The bill also amends the Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Act 2013\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b157d9dda834f8f93296a93241f1276\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, he\u2019s reading it. This is great.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227621aa65fb9249cd978df57a6441c990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f0fe25d1f9d456a8dc0df8398e921e0\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to ensure that the existing provisions of that Act apply to network operators who provide services to New Zealanders\u2014who\u2019ve been ripped off by this Government, ripped off by this Minister of broadcasting, who has done nothing in terms of providing a strategy for journalists, for media people. All he\u2019s done is taken funding off Radio New Zealand. What\u2019s happened in M\u0101ori broadcasting? No funding. Why? Because you\u2019ve got a useless Minister for M\u0101ori Development\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266f6c28ad7ef46e59587dedc67d29771\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227621aa65fb9249cd978df57a6441c990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae6dc40145ae4ed99bb996c9ac36f1e1\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I\u2019ll come back to the bill, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c72760f83ae2481788a9c2fd55951b65\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Try reading some of it. There you go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227621aa65fb9249cd978df57a6441c990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a5d2d1d17b544999752279b5b3d2f07\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: But the bill ensures that both domestic and overseas providers operate on a level playing field. Now, we all agree with that, don\u2019t we? We all agree with that. It would be a better a playing field if this useless broadcasting Minister could actually do something for our media people, for our journalists all over the country. Shame on him and shame on this Government. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u00226545d902ebaf4c898e51987266dd1e70\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226545d902ebaf4c898e51987266dd1e70\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that was an incredibly long five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212fd037a8544418390244b7c3a65216e\u0022 data-id=\u00223fbb7b85788549e7b73055b86e926888\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212fd037a8544418390244b7c3a65216e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223fbb7b85788549e7b73055b86e926888\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Not only was it long, it was abysmal for someone who should know better. The only thing the former Minister can broadcast is hot air. I am glad to stand in support of the Telecommunications and Other Matters Amendment Bill. Telecommunications is very important. We saw with the previous National Government the introduction of the ultra-fast broadband programme, and by 2033 it\u2019s projected to add $163\u00A0billion to our economy. That highlights how important telecommunication is. But we need a level playing field and that\u2019s what this bill does. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9f7e968e1334f9e9ad813aab7660f59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9f7e968e1334f9e9ad813aab7660f59\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. I think we can all agree that no matter what I say, I\u2019m going to look calm and collected\u2014though I agree with everything that the Hon Willie Jackson said. Heoi an\u014D r\u0101, e t\u016B ana au ki te tautoko i t\u0113nei pire; I do stand in support of this bill, because, at the heart of it, this bill is about connection and, of course, ensuring good quality governance of excellent connection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003EI want to talk about a place in Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti I haven\u2019t been to for a very long time: my house. Where I live, I live up a dirt road on a farm\u2014where I actually do drive a Personal All-Terrain Vehicle, actually, wh\u0101nau. Heoi an\u014D, where I live on Maraehara Road, there is no cellphone coverage, and recently, landlines have been disabled. Some might say that\u2019s the price of living in paradise, and while I agree we live in paradise, it is also a significant safety risk\u2014you know, to not be able to ring 111. So over the years, we have become increasingly reliant on the internet for things such as Wi-Fi calling to stay connected and continue to make phone calls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s also appropriate that our marae\u2014symbols and hubs of connection throughout Ng\u0101ti Porou\u2014provide connectivity for wh\u0101nau through providing internet services, particularly in our rural areas. The issue of connectivity became absolutely undeniable during Cyclone Gabrielle. Not only were we physically cut off with roads closed in and out, stopping delivery of food, etc., but all telecommunications were gone. The only means of communication we had were (1) me physically going around knocking on people\u2019s doors to tell them what the civil defence plans and instructions were, and (2) good old Radio Ng\u0101ti Porou\u2014Te Reo o te Iwi, who\u2019s been bringing people together for years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003EWhile disconnected, there was no EFTPOS, we couldn\u2019t access online banking, so I just want to acknowledge the local businesses, particularly supermarkets, who showed the locals goodwill by offering them credit. Then came saviours by way of our own iwi and iwi from across Aotearoa and wh\u0101nau from across Aotearoa, some not even related to those of us cut off\u2014they came and provided aid through the provision of Starlink. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003ESo there we were: we were back in business and we were back connected. Wh\u0101nau were able to contact their relations around the world to say, \u201CKei te pai m\u0101tou. Kei te ora m\u0101tou.\u201D\u2014we\u2019re OK. We\u2019re alive. We\u2019re safe. We are cut off, but we don\u2019t mind being isolated off the East Coast. It became the norm throughout the East Coast. We had marae, we had fire stations, we had community hubs with satellite dishes outside, keeping us all connected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003EWhile we love that service, we all know that fairness is the Kiwi way, and this bill will clarify that although offshore, these services being provided for in Aotearoa must be subject to the same regulations as domestic providers. That includes paying levies to help support ongoing development and\u2014one of our favourite words up the coast\u2014infrastructure, which is sorely needed throughout Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003EOf course, in a time of increased cybersecurity awareness, of course there has been some scepticism about what\u2019s going on with all these satellite dishes. Who\u2019s watching us? Who\u2019s in control of us? The stronger enforcement powers enable\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c85c110152e4c349fea048f1e63a96f\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019d be surprised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e20896a886e4d4897f23ac103761118\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, what\u2019s that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235141a26484b43fe8350ac5cc610a734\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: I said you\u2019ll be very surprised who\u2019s watching you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c1335c80aed4e39826a4082410622c4\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL\u003C/span\u003E: No, I wouldn\u2019t\u2014I wouldn\u2019t. After sitting in this House with you guys for two years, I would not be surprised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003EThe increased security is something we do support. But like I said, at its heart\u2014and the reason I support it on behalf of Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti\u2014is that this is about connection. It\u2019s about keeping people connected in a quality way through quality infrastructure and providing quality governance. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220cca8d925277422396d3d4e7837175a3\u0022 data-id=\u00222341fea5dd83476a8e518b642db0a1a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220cca8d925277422396d3d4e7837175a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222341fea5dd83476a8e518b642db0a1a6\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. This bill ensures that telcos based overseas will be subject to New Zealand\u2019s regulatory regime. It strengthens oversight. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220cca8d925277422396d3d4e7837175a3\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220cca8d925277422396d3d4e7837175a3\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u00225c5637e015b649dfb2bcb623aad3190b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c5637e015b649dfb2bcb623aad3190b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Telecommunications and Other Matters Amendment Bill be considered by the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dec57ec097434dffb877c41235c2f4a2\u0022\u003EMeteorological Services (Acquisition and Policies) Legislation Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ae41d4c2de8345418c5f2ec90ec98c47\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022 data-id=\u0022abbdce7d4189428ea8d36851191bd59d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abbdce7d4189428ea8d36851191bd59d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Land Information)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Science, Innovation and Technology: I present a legislative statement on the Meteorological Services (Acquisition and Policies) Legislation Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022504301a258c546eda6875c19d8212754\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af7928327c6c4e5daf4f328e0994c565\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Meteorological Services (Acquisition and Policies) Legislation Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee to consider the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a pleasure to bring this bill to the House on behalf of the Minister of Science, Innovation and Technology. The purpose of the bill is to allow for MetService, a State-owned enterprise\u2014or SOE\u2014to be acquired by Earth Sciences New Zealand, a Crown research institute referred to in the bill by its legal name: the New Zealand Institute for Earth Science Limited. The bill also will require Earth Sciences New Zealand to publish its access policy for observational weather data.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EThe bill brings our two Crown-owned weather forecasting companies back together. It will provide more connected weather forecasting and investment for the wellbeing and safety of New Zealanders, protect our infrastructure, and support the growth of our economy. Weather forecasting provides many economic, social, environmental, and cultural benefits to New Zealanders. It\u2019s an input to many of the goods and services we enjoy. Accurate and timely weather forecasting allows for safer travel and personal pursuits, more informed farming, and better decisions on how and where to build infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EFor example, farmers rely on short- and long-term forecasts to plan irrigation and protect crops. Knowing when rain or severe weather is coming can mean the difference between a good harvest and safe animals on the one hand, or a costly loss. Further, airlines rely on accurate and timely weather forecasts for route selection and safer air travel. Weather forecasting is also relied upon heavily in the built environment\u2014for example, in terms of building site selection, resilience and design, worker safety, build scheduling, and project budgeting. Of course, as cricket fans know, the reliable way to know if rain is forecast for a particular area is to check Cricinfo for an upcoming one-day international, T20, or test match.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EBringing the nation\u2019s two weather forecasters together was a key recommendation in the weather forecasting review. I acknowledge our colleague and friend, the Hon Judith Collins, for some of her early work in that regard\u2014of course, brought forward subsequently by our other colleague and friend in this space, the Hon Dr Shane Reti.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EWe expect to address a number of identified problems as a result of the review now leading to this legislation, including uncertainty during severe weather events due to inconsistent messaging from having two Crown-owned weather forecasters. This has created increased risks to public safety, infrastructure, property, and the economy; next, a lack of integration between climate science, forecasting, hydrology, and coastal hazards\u2014resulting in fragmented weather forecasting advice; and, finally, inefficiencies within the weather forecasting system, as evidenced by duplicated effort and investment. [Maureen Pugh takes the Chair]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EThis change will provide a more connected weather forecasting system that brings climate science, forecasting, hydrology, and coastal hazards together to provide truly integrated advice. The change will deliver economic benefits by providing holistic weather forecasting that individuals and businesses can rely upon. It will also improve understanding of hazards, strengthening our ability to plan for and build resilience against severe weather events. Madam Speaker\u2019s own electorate is all too familiar with the dangers associated with heavy and severe weather events such as flooding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EPut simply, we are creating a weather forecasting system that meets the needs of New Zealand now and into the future. Key features of the bill include that it is relatively short but technical. It\u2019s designed to enable the acquisition of MetService and improve transparency around weather data policies. But I would like to take this opportunity to summarise some of its key features.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003ESpecifically, the bill: (1) removes MetService from the State-Owned Enterprises Act 1986, allowing it to be acquired by Earth Sciences New Zealand; (2) exempts the acquisition of MetService by Earth Sciences New Zealand from Part 3 of the Commerce Act 1986\u2014a relief to us all, I\u2019m sure\u2014(3) requires Earth Sciences New Zealand to publish its access policy for observational weather data; and (4) includes standard provisions to make the transition smooth and protect existing agreements. For example, the acquisition won\u2019t give anyone the right to cancel a lease, end a contract, or speed up obligations just because the ownership changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EFollowing the acquisition, MetService will cease to be a State-owned enterprise and will become a wholly owned subsidiary of Earth Sciences New Zealand. Bringing MetService and Earth Sciences New Zealand together is a broader part of the organisational changes we are making to our science, innovation, and technology system. These changes to the weather forecasting system are part of the biggest science system reforms in over 30 years, creating scale, efficiency, and alignment across our science organisations so that they deliver greater benefits for all of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EThis bill is about more than integrating organisations. It is about building a weather forecasting system that protects lives, strengthens our economy, and ensures that New Zealand is ready for the challenges of a clang\u2014changing climate. And a changing final paragraph. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222c01400a9cbf474c88d6fed00e84afcc\u0022 data-id=\u00229b6ef67f63c64ab69fb4298b7a5fbf44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c01400a9cbf474c88d6fed00e84afcc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b6ef67f63c64ab69fb4298b7a5fbf44\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, thank you. It\u2019s a privilege to take a call on the Meteorological Services (Acquisition and Policies) Legislation Amendment Bill. I just would like to acknowledge, it being Movember, the member who has just taken his seat\u2019s attempt at supporting Movember. It\u2019s evident we\u2019re under urgency, because I had hoped that it would have advanced since the last bill, but it remains more of a suggestion than a Selleck.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c01400a9cbf474c88d6fed00e84afcc\u0022\u003EThe bill at hand today: the purpose of this bill is to allow for the acquisition of the Meteorological Service of New Zealand Limited\u2014we know it as the MetService\u2014by the New Zealand Institute for Earth Sciences Limited, or the NZIES, and to require the NZIES to publish its access policy for observational weather data. That\u2019s what this bill sets out to do. MetService, as we\u2019ve heard, is the designated provider of severe weather forecasts and warnings for New Zealand under the Meteorological Service Act 1990, and is currently a State-owned enterprise. Its purpose is to help us all stay safe; to help us all make informed decisions based on timely and accurate weather forecasts, including during severe weather events. We have seen\u2014and even in the last bill talked about\u2014some of the impacts those can have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c01400a9cbf474c88d6fed00e84afcc\u0022\u003ENow, it\u2019s important up to make it clear that reform was required in this space, but cuts are cuts and I will continue to call them out when we see them. It\u2019s important that we talk about what\u2019s really going on across our science sector and across our science community, because whilst we can talk about alignment and whilst we can talk about \u201Cgoing for growth\u201D, what we need to see in this sector is that that growth and that talk of alignment is actually matched in budget and is actually matched in investment, and is actually an investment into these important fields of work and expertise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c01400a9cbf474c88d6fed00e84afcc\u0022\u003EInstead, what we\u2019re seeing at this point in time is a huge number of job losses. We\u2019re seeing bigger investments in redundancies at Callaghan Innovation of $11 million than we are in some really important areas of our science sector and science community, so let\u2019s not kid ourselves when we talk about \u201Cgoing for growth\u201D and when we talk about investing in innovation and when we talk about investing in research and development. Let\u2019s not kid ourselves that what we\u2019re actually seeing here in real terms is cuts\u2014cuts to the sector that drives discovery, that drives our science, that drives our innovation. Let\u2019s not dress all of that up and disguise those very real cuts, those very real job losses in our science sector, that will mean that we continue to lose many of our best and brightest overseas, where the opportunities are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c01400a9cbf474c88d6fed00e84afcc\u0022\u003EThis is not just me calling this out. This is a number of people across the sector, including the recipient of the Prime Minister\u2019s Science Prize, who has had some fairly blunt things to say both about the Prime Minister and particularly about the science budget, or the lack thereof\u2014the reprioritisation of funding into things like roads rather than into critical areas of science, where it could make a real difference for all New Zealanders. There\u2019s a suspicion that this is a Government that wants to silence science rather than invest properly in it to see the kind of innovation that New Zealand needs and that New Zealand deserves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c01400a9cbf474c88d6fed00e84afcc\u0022\u003EWhat this bill also does\u2014to come back to it\u2014is it amends the State-Owned Enterprises Act 1986 to remove the listing of MetService as a State enterprise. It also exempts the acquisition of MetService by NZIES from Part 3 of the Commerce Act. One of the other things that I think we need to keep a close eye on is that it amends the State-Owned Enterprises (Meteorological Service of New Zealand Limited and Vehicle Testing New Zealand Limited) Amendment Act 1999 to repeal certain provisions in the Act that will become redundant when this bill is enacted. Now, I said that very quickly, so you may have missed that \u201CVehicle Testing New Zealand Limited\u201D is in there too. For a Government that\u2019s also started talking about wanting to sell some things off, I think we need to keep a very close eye on anything that starts to move the areas in which some of these State-owned assets sit\u2014starts to move some of that legislation around. So we do support the bill, but not a Government that disrespects and underfunds science, and that is what we\u2019ve got at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022 data-id=\u00220bef02da3d7b4f3abe7119bada7bdc82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220bef02da3d7b4f3abe7119bada7bdc82\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. As we have heard, this reform is part of the biggest science system reforms in 30 years. The Green Party supports this bill, but we support it with concerns. We want to express some concerns, because of course we have seen a Government that is not favouring science, despite a reform that we heard and we understand is making some good progress in some areas. But as my colleague Reuben Davidson has just said, there are very real job losses in our science sector. We are experiencing a brain drain at the moment. The bigger picture is that these reforms are probably transgressing all of Vannevar Bush\u2019s five fundamentals\u2014that stability; we want stability in the science sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EAt the moment, we\u2019ve got hyper-contestability\u2014full cost funding, politicisation of science and priorities, and defunding. And that is a problem. That is a problem, because if we politicise science, we lose the true value of it for society. We also see that there\u2019s a lack of expertise and experience because we are seeing a loss of capability because of the job losses, because of the defunding of our science sector. We are losing people. We are losing some of our youngest and brightest, but we\u2019re also losing some of our most experienced, at this point in time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s another concern. We don\u2019t think that the Government should operate or direct the laboratories funded. What we\u2019re seeing is an ongoing erosion of independent governance. There we see some institutional independence at risk, and we also must ensure that we\u2019ve got accountability, but we\u2019ve got, at the moment, overheads, lack of transparency, in what\u2019s happening in our science system. So while this merging makes sense, we are seeing a whole range of other issues in the science sector, because the Government has decided, in its wisdom, that science is not a priority, that science does not need the funding despite the most radical reforms in 30 years\u2014it\u2019s got to find the money to do that from within the sector, and it\u2019s got to try and retain stuff that have no job security, because they don\u2019t know what the hell is going on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EThis is where we see the disjuncture between what the Government wants to do\u2014it wants to do the reform of the science system on the cheap. We are one of the countries that invests the least in our science system. We also know that investing in our science system gives us, for every dollar invested, between $8 and $20 back, boosting our economy. But in going for growth, this Government doesn\u2019t value that, because when science disagrees with their desires, such as cutting the methane target, then it is ignored, and this is the real problem that we have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EWhile it\u2019s nice to think that we might need to understand what the weather\u2019s doing for cricket games, we also need to know what the cost of reducing our methane target is for our climate commitments, for our climate targets. We also need to know what impact importing dirty cars has for our climate commitments; this is evidence that we need as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EThis is a bill that we will support, but my concern is that this is part of the breakdown in our science system, the de-funding of our critical science system that is sending our youngest, our brightest, and our most capable scientists overseas at a time when we need them the most. That is my concern and that is the concern of the Green Party\u2014that this Government only respects science when it does its bidding, and rejects it when it doesn\u2019t. That is a concern. That\u2019s the politicisation of science that we cannot afford in this country. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022c54aad268bf14c319e0c0f5a46ceff2b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c54aad268bf14c319e0c0f5a46ceff2b\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m taking this call on behalf of ACT to support the Meteorological Services (Acquisition and Policies) Legislation Amendment Bill. It was very interesting to hear that speech from the Green member Scott Willis. The member thinks that the weather forecast is important only for cricket matches, but the member forgets that our economy is reliant on agriculture and dairy and that the weather forecast is really important for these kinds of industries. That is why we are so focused on ensuring that our weather forecast system works the way it should.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003EThe other point I want to highlight from that member\u2019s speech is that the member thinks that the science should not be politicised. I fully agree with the member that science should not be politicised. It is this Government that has established the Science System Advisory Group, to see how we can align science to improve innovation in our country and to contribute to our economic growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003ENow, coming back to the bill, actually, this is a bill I would say is not anything that is debatable, in a sense, because it\u2019s a really good move. We know that earlier this year, it was announced that the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research (NIWA) was going to acquire MetService. It\u2019s really good to bring these two entities together, our national service and our research institute. That gives a lot more credibility and authority to the weather systems we have in our country. I also want to highlight this: because of the Science System Advisory Group\u2019s work, our CRIs, our Crown Research Institutes, are being merged into public research organisations. One of the newly formed public research organisations is Earth Sciences New Zealand, and now, because NIWA has become part of this, basically, that is NIWA\u2019s new identity. Now this newly formed institute is going to acquire MetService.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003EWe believe in improving efficiency and improving productivity, in the ACT team. We believe that by doing this, we will be avoiding duplication. We will be merging capabilities. We will be merging data, expertise, and technology. That is going to work really well for the safety of people and also for economic activity in our country. So the ACT Party is supporting this bill and commends this bill to the House. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eac6c3aa5817441f89ae786e919f239b\u0022 data-id=\u00227b7235a75141472393efad6a6b125879\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eac6c3aa5817441f89ae786e919f239b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b7235a75141472393efad6a6b125879\u0022\u003EDr DAVID WILSON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, thank you. I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to address the Meteorological Services (Acquisition and Policies) Legislation Amendment Bill. I\u2019d like to sort of reflect a little bit on what some of the Opposition speakers have said to us\u2014both from Labour and from the Greens\u2014in support of this bill, because I don\u2019t think it\u2019s just simply a rationalisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eac6c3aa5817441f89ae786e919f239b\u0022\u003EWho remembers the surface pressure map? You know, the lined one on the\u2014yeah? I used to go in my twenties and look at this thing, pick up the Herald, because that was the only place you could get it, so I could see what the tropical cyclones were going to do, hitting Fiji and providing waves for us. Well, they\u2019re a little bit more sophisticated these days at the MetService. They\u2019ve got great research and I really, really enjoy having discussions with them\u2014maybe I\u2019m a little bit of a nerd. But in terms of the sophisticated meteorological software and services they provide\u2014and you start to combine that with what NIWA does; I\u2019ve had some time to work with NIWA. NIWA have developed the land-based kingfish farming production at Bream Bay, and if you\u2019ve ever been on the RV Tangaroa vessel and looked at the oceanographic capability that they have, you can say, \u201CWow, this is an amazing, amazing group of people adding to the value of our research and science in New Zealand.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eac6c3aa5817441f89ae786e919f239b\u0022\u003EA lot of people, though, if you asked them, wouldn\u2019t know the difference between MetService and NIWA. Isn\u2019t NIWA the guy that comes up on the TV and gives us the weather every day on TVNZ, and that\u2019s it? So why are they doing the weather and why is MetService doing the weather? A lot of people won\u2019t understand these nuances. On top of that, we have Geological and Nuclear Sciences Limited coming together to form this new institute, which is called the New Zealand Institute for Earth Sciences. Well, I think this is actually more a case not of rationalisation; this is a case of synthesis, synthesising these skills, recalibrating so that we can focus on some of the major issues confronting this country right now around hazards, around climate change, and all those sorts of things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eac6c3aa5817441f89ae786e919f239b\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re getting smart here, and this is the right way to work with our science institutes. It is focusing on the challenges of today\u2014and interesting we used to focus on nuclear sciences; I\u2019m not sure that\u2019ll be part of the new challenge going forward. I think that this merger makes complete sense, and if we can get this recalibration, then we\u2019re going to get our scientists focusing on the research domains and equipping us to meet those major challenges. Therefore, I commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022 data-id=\u002252708880b74e48b9bf3a58c4eb53d971\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252708880b74e48b9bf3a58c4eb53d971\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call on the Meteorological Services (Acquisition and Policies) Legislation Amendment Bill. This is bringing together the organisations that make sense to come together under one organisation, which is the earth sciences, bringing together MetService into this. It brings all of our capabilities in the earth and atmospheric sciences together, and I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022 data-id=\u0022fedef230868c4da08e53e165fcc29e84\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fedef230868c4da08e53e165fcc29e84\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker\u2014an opportunity to speak about something that will affect all New Zealanders. This is a bill that looks technical, it looks like a rationalisation, or, as New Zealand First has said, a synthesisation. This is about really important services that New Zealanders all need. Aucklanders were affected by the Auckland Anniversary floods\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253ea9260e69f4f76b6778407ffd71c45\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Auckland Council ignored the warnings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd08c40cfef6406f9ab9ab82554d5654\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and, later, Cyclone Gabrielle had a huge impact on our regions\u2014on growers, on farmers, on people, and, ultimately, a loss of life and limb. It is incredibly important for councils around the country that responders have access to timely and useful data.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EI hear Mr Simon Court on the other side saying councils had that accurate and up-to-date data. In fact, what we have learnt from the two reports into the response to those disasters, particularly the Auckland Anniversary floods, is that councils did not receive some of that important weather data in a timely fashion, and it would have changed the way that the response was dealt with. So to be able to rationalise our weather services like this is incredibly important for those locally elected representatives who need to respond quickly, and to all of us in this House who have responsibility for our regions and for making sure the people on the ground can ready themselves, ready their families, and respond to severe weather events that will happen more in future because of policies that we\u2019re seeing that are supported by someone like Mr Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s broad support for this merger in the sector\u2014largely our meteorological services in New Zealand have made supportive comments publicly, and that\u2019s important when you consider a history over the years of a competitive environment for these services and a very limited ability to work together and to cooperate because of the way that these things have been structured. It\u2019s important to acknowledge just how much it would have taken for many people in the sector to be able to come around this and get behind this, but that seems to be what has happened here, and that\u2019s a really good thing. It should give all of us some comfort that the goodwill going forward is going to allow this merger to occur in a way that will be cooperative and collaborative. Things like joint unlimited access to the technology, to the super-computer, to both of these organisations\u2019 assets that they are bringing into the merger is a really good thing, and we should see a result from that that will benefit all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EThe only points that I wish to raise at this reading, before we consider this further, are that we do have concerns here, particularly around not only the funding of science but also in terms of how these amendments are being done to the State-Owned Enterprises Act. It is very simple in this Act, and it sets out here just how a Government that is so minded would be able to carve off State-owned assets from the protections of the State-Owned Enterprises Act 1986, and simply take them out of a schedule and move them into another ownership structure. In this case, it is one where those are largely going to be enjoyed\u2014publicly, they are going to have a public benefit. But it sets out very baldly, in what is a very short Act, just how quick and easy it would be to privatise assets like this that have enjoyed the protections of the State-Owned Enterprises Act since the late 1980s in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EOne thing that\u2019s particularly striking is around the removal of the provisions of the Commerce Act from a merger like this. It\u2019s very simple. It looks like, on page 11, at clause 29, a simple provision that allows Part 3 of the Commerce Act not to apply to an acquisition like this. What does that mean for New Zealanders? It means that these two entities can be merged without any thought of the impact on the downstream consumers or the people who buy their services. In this case, there is a strong rationale for that, but you can imagine an instance where the Government has taken ownership and retained ownership of the State-owned enterprise that is this critical to New Zealand\u2019s ability to respond, in this case, to disasters and severe weather that could occur where you would simply need to take it out of any oversight of the Commerce Commission and to be able to roll this up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003EIt is very quick, it\u2019s very painless, for a Government moving fast, and a reminder of Geoffrey Palmer\u2019s comments that we have one of the fastest legislatures in the West to be able to do something like this to assets which have been built up over many generations of New Zealanders in their tax dollars. It is something that we must do soberly and we must consider very, very carefully. That is why Labour has expressed reservations about the support here. We\u2019re keen to work this through and we\u2019re keen to ensure that this is a robust process which makes sense for everyone who uses the services and for those responders who need this information into their weather events.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212fd037a8544418390244b7c3a65216e\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd026ad4636a45f6a9d005e096337e4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212fd037a8544418390244b7c3a65216e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd026ad4636a45f6a9d005e096337e4c\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Excellent. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. This bill brings together two Crown-owned weather forecasting companies\u2014brings them back together. It will provide more connected weather-forecasting and investment for the wellbeing and safety of New Zealanders, protect our infrastructure, and support the growth of our economy. Therefore, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7005738501245d0b83313587e072fce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7005738501245d0b83313587e072fce\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. The Government\u2019s objective is to bring meteorology, climate science, hydrology, and oceanography together to create a stronger, more connected\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2b01d3cf9a34bbea94a158eb3407bdb\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Speak up\u2014we can\u2019t hear you! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffd6e11494f247e3965b93851caa1636\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014weather forecasting system to improve New Zealand\u2019s resilience to severe weather events. I must make the point that the heckling coming from that side is so ironic, because it lasts longer than their speeches. If you want to have something to say, at least have the decency to make a decent contribution. Hoi an\u014D r\u0101 [However], for now\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289e7f3e96a8f4d958815d08c4d796950\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I assume that comment was not directed at me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9ac741007b6426a9cb15edd2a9ec5da\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Well, I\u2019m just happy to have made that point, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b660648034240ba9c8733e90d308369\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9ebf42b93bb49958d6004e1f61d0689\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s quite a disgrace to these bills, I think\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d26cc7923b69474888ac97a5737ad23f\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ffa16ad26cc46f98823868ed8adaa21\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014when people take more time to interrupt quality contributions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022564f6e52f75c4a9eaa9c3c759e585263\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfda225cbc314307a8b2bdf6c7532efd\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014than they do to make their own.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2c600a2239441d0a41db4025e1b569e\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Speaker. I think\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a67ff4f9f87442bb683d32c27ea1bff\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Is that a point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022448113e8de8741b8a7d5bfbd4d79d626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fbbcebc66a54ea39905132faeba74d4\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: It is. Thank you, Madam Speaker. The fact you couldn\u2019t hear me for five calls for a point of order shows that the member who is speaking\u2014if she could just realise that the microphone is very live, and it\u2019s very loud, and that\u2019s why people are maybe saying, \u201CCan you keep it down a wee bit?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d31c9b4aed44a0789620146a8206bb8\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223884614214fa422486fb22153d5f3a9f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not a point of order, and so there\u2019s no need to speak to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227342627ccd614f4180fa6d96fc74b0e7\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Now, given the objectives I\u2019ve just outlined, why would we not support it? In particular, why would I not support it when that\u2019s exactly what a holistic M\u0101ori worldview has had mai r\u0101 an\u014D [since the beginning]?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003EWhen I worked in the broadcasting industry, thankfully we didn\u2019t have to say, \u201CHere are the meteorological reports for the day.\u201D It was as simple as saying, \u201Canei ng\u0101 tohu a T\u0101whirim\u0101tea me ng\u0101 tai a Tangaroa\u201D [here are the cues of T\u0101whirim\u0101tea and the tides of Tangaroa]; here is what\u2019s happening to the wind; here is what\u2019s happening with the tides. We know in te ao M\u0101ori, we\u2019ve got Tamanuiter\u0101; we\u2019ve got Te Uira, the lightning; we\u2019ve got Hinep\u016Bkohurangi, the mist. These are concepts that we have been living with for a long, long time. For millennia, our ancestors lived by the moon, the tides, the stars, and even behavioural patterns of the birds and animals: planting, harvesting, fishing, diving\u2014my favourite\u2014hunting, travel. Life was determined by these connections with the elements. Now, while there are still many who are still very proficient in our maramataka M\u0101ori, the majority of us simply grab our phones\u2014those of us who are not familiar with isobar patterns\u2014and check what the long-term MetService forecast is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003ETherefore, as I said, I\u2019m standing on behalf of the Labour Party to support this bill. This bill also presents an amazing opportunity to continue the work started by the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research, who worked with iwi, hap\u016B, and wh\u0101nau to establish Te K\u016Bwaha: working together to integrate and embed m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori with modern science, to ensure quality monitoring processes that fit with our country. Through internships also provided through that programme, they have built not only M\u0101ori capability but, vice versa, they\u2019ve had access to m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori to supplement the science.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003EAs you know, Cyclone Gabrielle has obviously had a massive impact on Te Tair\u0101whiti, and I want to acknowledge all the emergency response people that we have out there. But that definitely emphasises the importance of quality monitoring.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003EWhile I support this, I do really think we can take considerations of the solutions that these might provide for weather-affected communities, particularly those in the area of Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti. There are a lot of dispossessed people but they want to stay on their whenua, so how can we utilise this science to support that, rather than just find reasons why people have to leave\u2014how can we find reasons to support people and stay? This is also an opportunity to think about how this quality new organisation can support research that will help inform insurance companies in flood-prone areas so that they can not only stay there but also have better consideration to be insured. There are some communities within Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti now deemed uninsurable, and I think that is a positive opportunity that this bill could support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022febb739e578849e3a210140796bb246c\u0022\u003ESo, as I\u2019ve said, I think this bill has the opportunity to absolutely complement m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori, and I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220cca8d925277422396d3d4e7837175a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f739c423e482484fa7e8c7224ad0cb16\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220cca8d925277422396d3d4e7837175a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f739c423e482484fa7e8c7224ad0cb16\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a pleasure to be able to rise and speak on the first reading of this bill. You know, we focus on innovation and growing our economy. That is what this bill does. It helps to drive productivity, higher value jobs, and better living standards for New Zealand. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220cca8d925277422396d3d4e7837175a3\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220cca8d925277422396d3d4e7837175a3\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u002297859e7f6d2746f6a63220201581d277\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297859e7f6d2746f6a63220201581d277\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Meteorological Services (Acquisition and Policies) Legislation Amendment Bill be considered by the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ce83ece8ef5045bfbc376650a8743cba\u0022\u003EGame Animal Council (Herds of Special Interest) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002242793e0fbdb043aea60d785fae1cf50c\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022 data-id=\u00222c18504453a74fb58a0206c5ea9d22ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c18504453a74fb58a0206c5ea9d22ce\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Minister for Hunting and Fishing):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Game Animal Council (Herds of Special Interest) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022261ecf3d9cf14a02a92c75798dfa2de6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219e8dc7cfaaf47389c830fe5bc901696\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Game Animal Council (Herds of Special Interest) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EI made a submission to the Standing Orders Committee yesterday about the value of legislative statements, and I said that they were originally intended to allow Ministers the opportunity to put forward the policy intent of the bill and to no longer have to read from their speech. It would be remiss of me not to try and attempt to put my money where my mouth is and, rather than read my second reading speech, point to the thrust of what the committee came out with in their report\u2014some of the highlights, and some of the lowlights, to be fair, in some of the submissions\u2014and talk about why this bill is an important piece of the hunter-led management conservation framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EFirst, can I just start by acknowledging all of those submitters who did submit on the bill at select committee and the work of the Environment Committee in managing the bill through. They\u2019ve come back with a report and the commentary, which doesn\u2019t recommend any substantive changes really, but it does provide some relatively good insight as to the views and thoughts of individuals out there, both in the hunting sector and in the wider conservation sector. I say wider conservation sector because, of course, hunters are part of our conservation efforts. Hunters are one of our best conservation tools. They are the ones that are out there day in, day out, repairing the tracks, resetting the traps, and taking care of species\u2014whether that\u2019s deer, whether that\u2019s goats, whether that\u2019s possums. They\u2019re the ones out there on the ground and doing the work, and they\u2019re the ones that should be acknowledged and appreciated for that work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge all our hunters that took time out of their busy days, their busy work schedules, to make submissions on this bill to emphasise the value that hunter-led conservation has in our wild animal management framework, and to emphasise how important an approach like herds of special interest is to more effectively and sustainably managing game animals in New Zealand. Our game animals, while they are introduced species, they are valued introduced species. They form a part of our culture and our society, and they have done so for many, many decades now. They are important as a food source to many of our wh\u0101nau and families on the land who go out there and just want to bring a bit of venison off the back blocks. They are an important economic tool for our international tourism operators and our international guided hunters, who raise, at last count, I think, $280 million from the international community, in terms of economic value, and they are important to our conservationists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EAgain, as I repeated at the top of the speech, if you look at what the achievements have been of the Fiordland Wapiti Foundation and the Central North Island Sika Foundation up in the Central Plateau, but also the New Zealand Tahr Foundation in and around my part of the world, central South Island, and also on the West Coast; if you think about what the Rakiura Whitetail Trust has been doing down with the Department of Conservation and with locals down in Stewart Island; and if you think about the proliferation of these community-led organisations around the country, you can only come to the conclusion that by including hunters in our conservation efforts, we will get better conservation outcomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EAt the same time, we will be able to better manage our herds for lower numbers but healthier herd numbers. That\u2019s going to be more venison taken off the land. It\u2019s going to be lower deer numbers. It\u2019s going to mean better conservation outcomes. All I need to do is point those members who are going to get up in about six minutes time and say that these are invasive species that need to be completely eradicated, totally forgetting that many of their own supporters rely on these animals for daily food, they rely on them for their cultural and social values, and they actually rely on them, and the people around these animals, to take care of the environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EIf they actually took the chance to read the departmental report and they go to the part of the departmental report which actually responds to questions about how effective this kind of management has been down in Fiordland, particularly through the Fiordland Wapiti Foundation\u2014I will take them to the particular page so they don\u2019t have to spend too much time trying to chase it because they clearly haven\u2019t read it. It\u2019s page 20 of the departmental report. It actually asks, \u201CWhat do the results show?\u201D Well, I can tell everyone what the results show. The Fiordland Wapiti Foundation, for decades and decades, have been implementing a community agreement, which is basically a herd of special interest in everything but name. I will take you to the exact point which says, \u201CWhat are the impacts? Overall, vegetation monitoring results in the Wapiti area indicate a reduction in deer browse impacts in alpine areas and signs of improving regeneration in forested catchments\u201D. I can say that again if the members would like me to. I can point to another point, which is that \u201CIn 2024, the proportion of browsed plants in the Wapiti area had significantly declined to 8\u00A0percent, meeting a newly established target. In managed areas, outside the Wapiti area, i.e., the area, which is not being managed by hunter-led conservation, browse increased from 10\u00A0percent in 2016 to 2018, to 16\u00A0percent in 2022.\u201D In the areas outside of hunter-led conservation management, the biodiversity is in a worse state than inside the area which is currently managed. If that is not proof that this is an idea that is worth pursuing and worth enforcing, then I don\u2019t know what else is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EFinally, in the time that I\u2019ve got left, I wanted to address some of the disinformation, misinformation that is being put out there by proxies of the Opposition in the public. They are saying things like, \u201CThis bill will set up, in the future, things like sanctuaries for stoats.\u201D Well, if that\u2019s a way to disparage our hunting community, I don\u2019t know what is. The thing that this bill does is it puts in place a management tool and a management regime, which allows our most effective conservation tool, our hunters, to get out there and better manage our wild animal management system. The final one I\u2019ll leave on, and I won\u2019t say which organisation made this comment, but they disparagingly said that \u201CAll our hunters do is go around flying in on helicopters and staying in their luxury lodges.\u201D Well, I think that was a mistake that that organisation did because the resulting response from hunters around the country was to send in examples of the luxury lodges. I can tell you, I flatted in Dunedin for about 10 years, and compared to some of the accommodation that our hunters were filming and showing us they were staying in, I think the student accommodation in Dunedin was luxury lodgings compared to some of the hillsides and windswept environments and bivouacs and lean-tos that our hunters put themselves into as they go out day and night to collect food for their families and to do what they love doing, which is to hunt and to be out in the outdoors and to enjoy our natural environment and to do their bit for conservation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EThat was my attempt at putting aside the written speech. Let the legislative statement talk for itself. Let the commentary from the select committee speak for itself. I commend this second reading to the House and look forward to its passage as quickly as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022 data-id=\u002267a7ecb0035d4825a0c9afacacb4b2b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267a7ecb0035d4825a0c9afacacb4b2b1\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, for this opportunity to reply to the Minister for Hunting and Fishing on the Game Animal Council (Herds of Special Interest) Amendment Bill. You will see, anybody who\u2019s looked, that the bill itself is very little, one page at the back here\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef4bc6531fba4da5bb1fb28250137077\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Great committee of the whole House coming up, ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022435d174a8c334ac39cad8b11118ee919\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014yes\u2014so there\u2019s not very many clauses, so you will not be hearing from me a long speech that reads out bits of the Act or the bill, because it is very short. But it is important to set some context here about how our conservation legislation works and how our Department of Conservation works and also our approach to mammals. We know\u2014well, most people in this House will know\u2014that a third of New Zealand is in some sort of conservation estate. Of course, most of that is in the best island, Madam Speaker, and I will bring you into this debate a little bit because a lot of it is around where you live.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265be7447502e4ae0ae99e52a354f1e30\u0022\u003EHon James Meager\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve always liked you, Rachel Brooking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e12a00cc14d423d9a9d5a5fecd887f4\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s right. It\u2019s the best part of the world. The Minister and I can agree on that, I\u2019m sure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022212cf7474b304d86a379dbfeb693d855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff4d4da8b66f47f28e4264ca5e32f708\u0022\u003EHon Mark Patterson\u003C/span\u003E: Aren\u2019t you going to run some defence for Dunedin\u2019s student flats, Rachel? Come on!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294bc4d8b405b43f7b6495fbe97d287dd\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve been asked\u2014by a Minister, no less\u2014to speak on Dunedin flats, and I will get to that at some point, I can assure the members in the House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271b5b50925734cedbe932f0ec0f31237\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: What, the flat you\u2019re in\u2014your flat?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fbc8416c0b840dbbab9c1232380ca6b\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: No, we never shared.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022563239fb137846daba4e64c7db511c4c\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014because I know that they are looking forward to that part of my contribution, but for now I\u2019m going to stick\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224032f3477d054d0ab63c92ff66183832\u0022\u003EHon James Meager\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s no connection between the two, by the way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a47b61b525644a30b020f633181c4187\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to the conservation land that does not include the area of North Dunedin that the Ministers are referring to, wonderful though that part of the country is as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003EBut we know that we have all of this conservation land, most of it is in the South Island, and a huge amount of that, therefore, is in the takiw\u0101 of Ng\u0101i Tahu as well. Within that conservation land, there are different types of land. We hear a lot about stewardship land. This bill is not applying to stewardship land, but it\u2019s important that I mention stewardship land because, of course, all of that conservation land that we have, some of it became conservation land through different changes of Government departments in the 1980s and 1990s as well. Some of that land is not pristine land, and there\u2019s not an intent to preserve all of that land at a most pristine level forever, and that is why it\u2019s called stewardship land. That means that that categorisation, different things can happen on that land compared with other higher-status land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003ENow, the most high-status land, of course, is that that is in the national parks. The national parks have their own piece of legislation as well, being the National Parks Act, as well as being relevant to the Conservation Act that talks about the different plans and the different rules that are required on these different types of conservation land. But the national parks are very precious. And, Madam Speaker\u2014again from your part of the world\u2014you\u2019ll know that some of those national parks, there were great campaigns at the turn of the last century to hold pieces, pristine pieces, of New Zealand\u2019s ecosystem intact for future generations. Hence, we have the National Parks Act, and we look after these pieces of land in a very special way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003ENow, before I get on to Dunedin students, I do want to talk about my Dunedin-made earrings, which are of pekapeka. It\u2019s important to note that Aotearoa New Zealand does not have any indigenous terrestrial mammals except for a couple of species of bat. Of course, we have wonderful marine mammals and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225376c75ce7674d7dac75af037e46221c\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Are bats birds? Can bats be Bird of the Year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fd26477859944c3a6e31de371f0b0f8\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Bats are manu. Bats can win the Bird of the Year, and it was very good that they did\u2014should have been the manu of the century, but that\u2019s a digression, I admit. I will not go down there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019m talking about is the importance of national parks and that New Zealand does not have mammals, and so much of our biodiversity, our flora and our fauna, has evolved in a different way from the rest of the world because we don\u2019t have these mammals that lots of the world has that eat the undergrowth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003EI heard the Minister, in a question and answer earlier this week, talk about the protection of the canopy\u2014that is something that a marsupial causes problems with, the possums. But the mammals, the ungulates, cause the problems with undergrowth, so that is one of the reasons why the National Parks Act says that \u201Cintroduced plants and animals shall as far as possible be exterminated:\u201D. That, of course, means that the Department of Conservation has not been wanting to protect these introduced mammals, the ungulates, that eat\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022079f1585430a4ffdac9199e160195722\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: Understorey.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5c261dfebe24cbeb51ceb225b0b08a4\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the undergrowth, the understorey\u2014thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203a4bc534b664f009b9429095bda4c59\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: If this is a short speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258fdf370f7de4301919cc227827f81ad\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: So what this bill is doing\u2014I made no promise of a short speech. I just said that I wouldn\u2019t be reading from the bill. That is all, Mr Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003EThis is a big issue, and this is what the submitters submitted on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003EWe heard from the Minister. He invited us all to go to the departmental report. I\u2019d like to report to the Minister that whilst we have looked at the departmental report, it is a different situation than earlier this morning where a huge amendment had come through late in the piece and the regulatory impact statement to that had not been available for some time, and there was some argument in the Chamber about this. In this case, there has been a select committee process, and I was very pleased to hear from many submitters, submitters who are hunters, submitters who are conservationists, submitters who are hunters and conservationists\u2014a whole range of people. They all came from, I believe, a very good place and all do truly want the best for our national parks and all that nature within them. We don\u2019t need to be directed to different places in the departmental report, from the Minister, because we did hear the submissions about the negative regenerative growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003EThe Minister says\u2014well, the departmental report says it improves by the hunters doing the maintenance rather than leaving it to the Department of Conservation that we all know has had its funding reduced and reduced and reduced. There is another way of coming at this issue and saying, well, could the funding to the Department of Conservation be increased, and could this be a priority\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270ed52c2243745f285c14a2d3413a86a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ab43af356ef466aa0887358ffca4203\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: Magic money tree.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022866b3cf7a80d463d9a64fde1efc1f3ff\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014work programme for them. And then it\u2019s\u2014oh, then it\u2019s the magic money tree, we hear from the other side. But how long does that argument go on that it\u2019s just the magic money tree and that we should be making concession after concession for actors who are not there just for the conservation of our natural and indigenous biology, to come into our very special conservation land and do the management of it? Where does this stop? I haven\u2019t heard an answer from the Minister about that, and of course we\u2019ll be asking questions in the committee stage. But I invite members opposite to tell me about the sort of funding that they\u2019re going to have for the continued monitoring of any of these groups, the hunting groups, that are doing conservation, to make sure that in fact there is better regenerative growth in the areas that they manage, and what learnings there will therefore be for what other groups can be doing that do not require an introduced mammal to be there eating up the undergrowth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s important to also note\u2014before I move on to Dunedin flats\u2014this language around high-valued introduced animals. We\u2019re being told that there\u2019s this real tourism focus, that we need them for tourism. Then, the next moment, we\u2019re told, \u201COh no, it\u2019s food for your wh\u0101nau.\u201D These are two very different arguments, and they haven\u2019t been clearly articulated by the Minister about what is the actual driver for this change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003EI want to also acknowledge the New Zealand Conservation Authority submission that is worried that this is another way to get the New Zealand Conservation Authority out of decision making. Of course, Ng\u0101i Tahu, in their settlement legislation, has a role on that conservation authority and others, so that is a highly pertinent point to the great South Island, where most of this conservation land is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003EOf course, in the fine electorate of Dunedin that has all the student housing, I\u2019m very pleased that there\u2019s now a healthy homes standard about\u2014hopefully, it will be much better than all of those hunting shacks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e79dc681bb1942db81ef368ad1dfdb06\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e79dc681bb1942db81ef368ad1dfdb06\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It is my pleasure to come to talk about the Game Animal Council (Herds of Special Interest) Amendment Bill because I am a hunter and I\u2019m from the South Island and I\u2019m also a conservationist. I\u2019m not one of these people that is going for growth to have the access to trophy heads in the South Island. In fact, I find that odious. I think we need to get rid of these ungulates in our bush, and that\u2019s part of what I hunt for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s also a value in wild meat, but I\u2019m aware and we heard through the select committee of many hunters who were very, very concerned about the impact of this bill and who opposed this bill. We also heard from hunters who supported this bill, and Roy Sloane from the Fiordland Wapiti Foundation gave a great presentation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EThe problem with the hunting support for this bill is that it doesn\u2019t actually reveal the evidence or respect the evidence that we have of hunter management of our ungulates, because we have an escalating pest-damage crisis across the South Island, and that\u2019s because hunters are not good at managing our ungulate problem. They\u2019re clearly not good at managing the ungulate problem. And personally, I know of people who have used their horse trailers to transfer fallow deer from one place to another. There is the transfer of tahr to different parts of the Southern Alps that have happened not quite accidentally. We\u2019re seeing pests in places that can only have got there with human intervention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EWhile we do have some hunters\u2014many hunters\u2014who are caring about our bush, our communities, and who are conservationists, we also have some irresponsible hunters and people who like to hunt, who are quite happy to feed the populations, to reinject populations. We\u2019ve got wallabies now in Otago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EThis is a crisis of pests not just in our national parks but also in our farmland, where we\u2019re seeing pigs coming back. We\u2019re seeing the loss of lambs. It\u2019s a wider thing than simply having what\u2019s claimed to be managed herds in our national parks. But the idea that we can manage herds in our national parks is not only dangerous; it\u2019s a way of taking away from the whole value of our national parks. We are concerned there has been no publicly available inquiries, reviews, or evaluations that have informed or are relevant to the policy that\u2019s being given effect to in this bill, and no further impact analysis has become available for any aspects of the policy to be given effect to by this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard from the Minister and we\u2019ve heard from the Government that this bill is about economic growth. What does that mean? The only way you can make money out of this is by inviting, probably American, guided hunters into our national parks to shoot deer that have essentially been raised to be there for them. And you know, as a New Zealander, I find that inappropriate. I find that hope to get some money from people who really are coming here simply to shoot animals is just the wrong way to go about it. I don\u2019t think we should be supporting that type of tourism in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EIf that\u2019s the type of economic growth that we\u2019re talking about, I\u2019d like to see some numbers, because at least the Government could try and justify it, because we know it is quite unlikely that there\u2019s going to be anything meaningful in that. And what we\u2019ve heard from the Fiordland Wapiti Foundation is that that\u2019ll bring some money back for them to continue to do some work, which is great in that little area. What we have is a conservation estate that has been defunded and defunded and defunded. So the defunding of our conservation estate is one key factor that has given rise to the rising ungulate numbers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003ERather than giving access to our conservation estate and our national parks to hunters, why don\u2019t we invest in our conservation estate to protect our national parks, to remove the ungulates, to support the biodiversity, to support our biodiversity that\u2019s so essential for our climate response, not simply for respecting our unique habitat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EWe are concerned. We are concerned that this bill is simply something that this Government wants to do to please a small portion of the New Zealand community, and it is going to do damage even to those hunters, because this bill will not stand in the next Government. Any investment that\u2019s made now, any hope that a small group of hunters have that they\u2019re going to have a free ride, is going to be swept away in the next Government. Rather than working with our hunting community and the different parts of our hunting community, many of whom are doing good things, this is running roughshod over a process. It is not building consensus. It is simply saying, \u201CWe want to do it and because we can do it in urgency, we\u2019re going to push it through\u2014push it through.\u201D This is the problem with the Government in general, and it\u2019s probably why we\u2019ve all had enough, and in 2026 we\u2019ll get rid of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019re really concerned about and what we\u2019ve seen in the Fiordland Wapiti Foundation is that this is also presenting a real challenge for other pest control, because they don\u2019t want 1080 drops. They don\u2019t want 1080 drops because the deer might eat them. Then that might not be a good thing if they\u2019re bringing people in to hunt trophy animals. So that makes it more expensive. DOC\u2019s work to control possums in the national park becomes harder. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EHere comes another problem: if we have the Minister for Hunting and Fishing, the Hon James Meager, being able to designate herds of special interest areas in our national parks but the cost of maintaining those national parks falls on the conservation Minister, how do we manage that? Is the Minister going to dedicate some funding to support the conservation estate? Is the Minister going to dedicate the money we need to properly fund the conservation authority? Is the Minister going to properly fund the Department of Conservation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EThese are questions that we should be getting a response to, because ultimately this is pushing a problem on to another budget and creating greater expense for people who are working their hardest, who are doing their hardest to reduce the pest numbers\u2014reduce possums, rats, stoats in our conservation estate, as well as reducing the number of ungulates, and reducing the damage that is happening in our bush.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EWe oppose this bill. We oppose it because it is simply the wrong way to go about managing our conservation estate. And not only that, it is simply a way of rushing a process, which is typical of this Government, to do poor legislation, to push it through under urgency\u2014urgency in a way we\u2019ve never seen from any other Government; as everything starts falling apart, trying to make it work. It\u2019s a sad day when we have such ridiculous, dangerous\u2014dangerous\u2014bills through the House under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EWe will oppose this bill, and we will remove it in 2026. It\u2019s going to have a very short life. It\u2019s a very short bill; it\u2019ll have a very short life. Less than a year\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7203f6aec4f4d42b2f0c2f4b29f38c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7203f6aec4f4d42b2f0c2f4b29f38c4\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired. I need to put the question. The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002281a465eb20294645bc63efa635c80cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00222cc9a12a281949f199658ae173ebd47a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281a465eb20294645bc63efa635c80cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cc9a12a281949f199658ae173ebd47a\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I look forward to agreeing to the motion. This bill is a very short bill, overriding the considerations from section 4(2)(b) in the National Parks Act. It\u2019s doing something that is removing a roadblock. I put an alternate view into this report to make sure that it\u2019s on the record that I think that the threats that we\u2019ve heard from the other side of the House tonight, saying about how this has got a short life, are exactly why we need to make sure that the intent of this bill is carried out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281a465eb20294645bc63efa635c80cbf\u0022\u003EAt the Environment Committee, we heard hyperbole which was ridiculous\u2014introduced animals are going to be thrown all around the country with this bill. It was insane. The Game Animal Council is a fantastic organisation advising, informing, and educating the hunting sector. It should be encouraged to be able to use tools like herds of special interests to get good outcomes for the taxpayer, the hunters, and our bush. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022212cf7474b304d86a379dbfeb693d855\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba745603cc8e48f7aa9bb42b0beb7005\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022212cf7474b304d86a379dbfeb693d855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba745603cc8e48f7aa9bb42b0beb7005\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON (Minister for Rural Communities):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support this bill on behalf of New Zealand First. It\u2019s a very sensible bill\u2014a very sensible bill. It does clarify the inherent tension between the Game Animal Council Act and the National Parks Act, and it allows the Minister to designate herds of special interest to be managed within a national park.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022212cf7474b304d86a379dbfeb693d855\u0022\u003ELook, hunting is almost a Kiwi birthright. It\u2019s a cultural treasure for so many New Zealanders. It puts meat on our table, and I think that, actually, across the House, people would understand that, or at least they should. It is also the tourists that come in for these trophy heads. I heard Scott Willis over there before, and it seems to have offended his sensibilities, but they would be some of the most high-value tourists that come into this country. This is a very, very high-end tourist. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f407db83e37b412680b9047a593e9206\u0022\u003EScott Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, come on, Mark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022212cf7474b304d86a379dbfeb693d855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270be47b68ce94e75ba4fead3ebe2f3bd\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON\u003C/span\u003E: We need to drive some economic growth here, Scott, otherwise, we\u2019re going to have to be making some pretty hard trade-offs. This is but one way that we can attract those very high-value tourists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022212cf7474b304d86a379dbfeb693d855\u0022\u003EThere are some challenges with this, and we will have to manage them, and the Minister will have to oversee this carefully. The farming community, particularly, will be looking that these herds are managed. We did hear the example of the Fiordland Wapiti Foundation and how this this model was essentially working in practice now. We think it\u2019s a sensible bill. It\u2019s well worth doing, and New Zealand First support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b0a45b59c2164f0d9a0e080836ba5674\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Game Animal Council (Herds of Special Interest) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000895\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb7cf05dfe614d288f5a0fbcac281e92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb7cf05dfe614d288f5a0fbcac281e92\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Statutes Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002247b53fa517e44091a9486fbbea96c082\u0022\u003EVisitors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221d2462578bd047448ff7a1d34abfedd8\u0022\u003EChinese People\u2019s National Congress\u2014Chairman\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u0022c75442295ae144d586255bfe6479d5e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c75442295ae144d586255bfe6479d5e4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, before we go into committee, I wonder if those who are present would like to join me in welcoming to our Parliament the chairman of the Chinese People\u2019s National Congress, Chairman Zhao.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003EThe House is in committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226f18876d7e054ddcb015f98121d504aa\u0022\u003EStatutes Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e1b6829406e34b859d9b52225d49bd44\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002295cba3c9cea04c889660c68e1496ce48\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Accident Compensation Act 2001\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u002231bc232230cc4542ab57a81e9811557f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231bc232230cc4542ab57a81e9811557f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Statutes Amendment Bill. Statutes amendment bills are bills that consist entirely of minor and technical amendments across the statute book. They are drafted with cross-party consultation and support and there is a strong convention that they will be supported unanimously. There are special procedures for statutes amendment bills. Standing Order 313(2) provides that if any member objects to a clause standing part, that clause is struck out of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003ETherefore, at the end of the debate on each part of this bill, rather than asking for those in favour and opposed to the question, I will ask whether any member objects to the relevant provisions standing part. We come first to Part 1, which is the debate on clauses 3 to 7, \u201CAmendments to Accident Compensation Act 2001\u201D. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u00228002474a760548edb1a1d82c1387db7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228002474a760548edb1a1d82c1387db7f\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, I seek leave for all provisions to be taken as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a129a634bb11418682c04c39230de620\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ea0436d7d834127bd922f4fb1477de8\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: OK. I am very pleased to be leading the Statutes Amendment Bill through the committee stage. This bill plays an important role in the ongoing maintenance of our statute book. Statutes amendment bills are legislative vehicles that make small, technical, and non-controversial amendments to a number of Acts. These changes are intended to improve clarity, correct errors, update terminology, and ensure our legislation remains current and fit for purpose. These bills allow amendments to be made that would not usually receive sufficient priority to be progressed individually. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EI want to emphasise that the Statutes Amendment Bill does not make substantive policy changes. Instead, it serves a housekeeping function, ensuring that the laws we rely on every day continue to operate smoothly and as intended. Each of the amendments in the bill has received unanimous cross-party support, and it\u2019s a good demonstration of all parties working together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EThe bill as reported back amends 41 primary Acts administered by various Government agencies. The key changes made by the Governance and Administration Committee include clarifying in the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Act 2009 that address verification is not required as part of a standard customer due diligence process but as part of an enhanced customer due diligence process. This change will provide clarity to reporting entities, to avoid unnecessary and burdensome over compliance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EIt includes clarifying in the Privacy Act 2020 that the six-month limitation period for a complainant to bring proceedings in the Tribunal starts only when the Privacy Commissioner or Director of Human Rights Proceedings has made final decisions about all related complaints and matters and has notified the complainant about those decisions under relevant provisions in the Privacy Act 2020.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EIt removes references to audio link in the Oaths and Declarations Act 1957 and replaces the term \u201Cin writing\u201D with the term \u201Cin a document\u201D, inserting new section 2A and 2A(1A) to make it clear that in cases where audiovisual software includes the option to turn off a camera, the camera must remain on. This change will improve the accessibility of oaths, affirmations, and declarations while ensuring the person is visible to the person administrating it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EThe committee also recommended removing the amendments to the Racing Industry Act 2020 and the Conservation Act 1987 from the bill. The amendments to the Racing Industry Act are no longer required as they are included in the Racing Industry Amendment Bill, and the proposed changes to the Conservation Act are being considered as part of other pieces of work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EI commend the Governance and Administration Committee for their hard work and dedication, which ensured that changes made through this bill are minor, technical, and non-controversial. I welcome the deliberations from the committee on this bill, and I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6d2ab9bf4ae473cb3ab966f5066ff28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6d2ab9bf4ae473cb3ab966f5066ff28\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s been a long Tuesday, I think we can all agree, and it\u2019s still going. It\u2019s a privilege to be able to contribute to the Statutes Amendment Bill. I enjoyed being able to engage with this bill on the Governance and Administration Committee, which looked at this bill, and did go through many of the different parts and sections with officials during our select committee stage. I think that was relatively thorough, but as you mentioned at the beginning of this committee stage, this is a special type of bill. It is by its nature less contentious.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EWe do have questions in relation to many of the parts, and they might not be the substantive contributions that maybe we would make on policy issues and other bills, but genuine questions that we have for the Minister around how the bill works. If they are a little bit technical, because this does cover 42 different primary pieces of legislation, then hopefully she\u2019ll be able to get advice, and we understand that that may be necessary, but we do have a few questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EThe first part that I wanted to start with was Part 1, in relation to the Accident Compensation Act, and the changes that have been made there. So this is in relation to clause 4, which amends the Code of ACC Claimants\u2019 Rights, which is a relatively significant part of the Accident Compensation Act, and anyone who\u2019s dealt with the ACC legislation will know that the ability for claimants to be aware of their rights and also for these to be clearly set out is very key.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003ESo, essentially, my reading of this particular section is rather than the current requirement which requires publication in a newspaper in Auckland, Hamilton, Wellington, Christchurch, and Dunedin of the changes or when an ACC bill of claimants rights\u2019 is put in place, this will now be changed to publication on one of the corporation\u2019s main websites. So I imagine that the reason for this is to update the way that people engage with information, so rather than in the past, people, say, looking in the newspaper to see what news has changed in relation to ACC, they may be checking the website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EThe question I had for the Minister in relation to this part is has there been any advice around whether there would be a notification of any change on that website or if it would be, say, with a media release or, say, a heading on the website to signal that there had been a change to the ACC claimants\u2019 rights? Has there been any assessment of whether that would be sufficient to actually let people know in these important areas that there has been a change to the Code of ACC Claimants\u2019 Rights? Because I imagine, when this was originally enacted by Parliament, the reason that those major centres were, in fact, chosen was because that would allow people to be aware that this Code of ACC Claimants\u2019 Rights had, in fact, been put in place. So that was the first question that I had for the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EThe other change, I think, has just been to repeal the Disabled Persons Employment Promotion Act 1960. I did look at that and I did understand, from my quick analysis of this Part 1, that perhaps that\u2019s been removed because that is no longer on the statute book. When you look at the legislation website, you\u2019re unable to click through that link. So I just wanted to double check that my understanding was correct, that the reason that that has been removed from the list of relevant statutes is because in fact it perhaps is no longer valid. Those are my questions on Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u002272cc832b37e14bdcbf5d7f0a910a71cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272cc832b37e14bdcbf5d7f0a910a71cb\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Miniter of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank the member for her work in the Governance and Administration Committee on this bill. In the first instance, I think, a lot of the feedback that came back\u2014I agreed with all of it, and I thought that with the contribution from across the Chamber, we got the bill in a really good state. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EI thank the member for her question. I haven\u2019t received advice about how ACC will notify the different individuals of the change, but my expectation is that that would have to be ongoing. There would have to be some way of being able to tell people that there\u2019s a change in the way that we are letting people know that they can contribute in some way. I think doing it through the internet means that we\u2019ll get more contributions, but there are still those people who look for it in the newspapers. I cannot answer your question directly, but I will take it on board and say that I do expect that there will still be some notification, even if it\u2019s on the internet, that things have come up or will be popping up. I will make sure that our officials are aware of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EIn regard to the second point, on clause 5, you are absolutely correct. It was a technical amendment because that piece of legislation had been repealed. It was just a tidy-up because we can\u2019t refer to it anymore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa768df11a954dd4b60e875bda9e074d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa768df11a954dd4b60e875bda9e074d\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I wasn\u2019t lucky enough to sit on the Governance and Administration Committee on this bill. I had a chat to the Clerk, who did inform me of the special nature of this bill and the fact that if I thought there could be improvements, it certainly ran into some procedural difficulties. Nevertheless, I do think, in terms of how the bill works and its operation, it\u2019s a good opportunity. There\u2019s really quite a lot in this bill and, as was identified, some non-contentious amendments, but, nevertheless, they do have some significant law changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EI really just want to talk about one clause, and that clause is clause 7, because it relates to a really important thing, which is consultation requirements for levy setting. The question, basically, is this: how do we make sure that people who pay levies have their say? Because, in fact, it\u2019s a requirement that appropriate levy payers are consulted in respect of proposals to impose new or increased levies. Look, I get it\u2014going away from public notices in newspapers, which have limited circulation, and to the internet is understandable. One of the challenges is that there are people out there\u2014lawyers are one of them\u2014who actually get the paper and go through the notices for this very reason, because it\u2019s understood as a repository of notices of consultations and other important legal matters that is easily and publicly available in one place. The challenge with putting it on a website is that if you want to understand what\u2019s going on, not only do you have to go to the ACC website, in this case, but you actually have to find it on the ACC website. Were I to propose an amendment, it would be to that. ACC, like many Government departments\u2014the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment, IRD\u2014have circular emails. If you are paying ACC levies, they\u2019ll have your email address, and they often send updates on operational changes and how to comply with obligations and how to stay safe\u2014all great stuff. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EI guess there\u2019s two things I would like to know, in an operational sense, as to how this lands. Will the consultation be easily found? I think that\u2019s really important. Will it be there on a regular consultation page that, essentially, you find from the front page of ACC? Because, many a time, you come to find a consultation document, and you\u2019ve got to click through many levels, and sometimes it\u2019s just impossible to find. I guess the other thing is will ACC be using other tools to make sure that affected people actually know about levies? Because levies\u2014they\u2019re not quite a tax, but you\u2019ve really got to make sure you\u2019ve got legitimacy, and consultation is not just about getting the details right around the edges. It\u2019s about having a legitimate process where people have been genuinely asked, and I just am a little concerned that if we just put it on an internet site\u2014either ACC\u2019s or their agents\u2019\u2014a lazy person would simply tuck it away in the background there. I\u2019d be interested in the Minister\u2019s comments in terms of how that will operationally land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab438a7d7e7c425fb675fd91cbf1b09d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab438a7d7e7c425fb675fd91cbf1b09d\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Dr Duncan Webb, for your question. As the member will be aware, the Statutes Amendment Bill is making small, technical, non-controversial amendments. If the member was wanting to get really into this and the operational side of it, I would have thought he would have gone along to the select committee process, but he hasn\u2019t. I\u2019m not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022311eba0f075e448993bb59225ea956bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222eb0e2130bbe47ecbe6f209a3318c3cb\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: This is his right\u2014to do that here. He has the right to do that here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022870fe47015cc4607b7e9a722da86eedc\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: It may be his right, and it\u2019s my right to also speak to what he\u2019s talking about, so I\u2019d suggest that the member just be quiet or at least\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cc78a7affb84fa9ad09ed217147f089\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221946027636204d3c8d230a95faf0a082\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014take the stand himself. Nevertheless, what I will say is that when we are modernising the Act so that we can look at the internet, a part of the reason why we\u2019re doing that is because people aren\u2019t buying the newspaper. When you look at the accessibility in finding it, one of the things that the member actually said was\u2014he actually said it\u2019s all in one place and so it\u2019d be easier to find. I dispute that, actually. People are finding it quite difficult, and I would have thought that putting it on to the internet, where people have more access\u2014that they know that they can go to a site and they\u2019ll be able to look it up and find all the information in one place instead of trying to look through certain newspapers and find copies of those newspapers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EThis is modernising it. How the agency, how ACC, goes about doing it and informing people\u2014I would expect that they would inform people because it\u2019s a change, right? As a Government agency, they would be expected to do so. But to be fair, I have not got into 42 different Acts and the operations behind every single clause that\u2019s in there. I will answer what I can on the minor and technical and non-controversial amendments that have been made here to the best of my ability, but I am not the Minister for ACC and therefore the operational side of how they work would probably be better directed to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EI hope that the member would agree that, actually, internet access for some of these will mean that we will reach more people rather than less, and it\u2019s modernising for the modern age.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb718cb315944d3d8eae03614a149997\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb718cb315944d3d8eae03614a149997\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just have a very short question on that note to the Minister, and potentially this will cover other questions later on in terms of other amendments when it comes to the digitalisation of some of our legislation when it comes to consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ELooking at clause 7, updating from a \u201Cdaily newspaper\u201D to \u201CInternet\u201D\u2014and I agree 100 percent with the Minister that it will give more availability\u2014would \u201CInternet\u201D in this case also include other forms of, I guess, website or things like social media? The reason I mention that is because social media now, in terms of advertisement, plays a similar role as daily newspapers, and we just heard a really good example yesterday in the debate on the stalking and harassment legislation where the select committee uses social media to open up for things like consultation. So that\u2019s my only question\u2014whether we can actually interpret \u201CInternet\u201D in that way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac957eb4fb6a46e8bd55327a9b849385\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac957eb4fb6a46e8bd55327a9b849385\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E That\u2019s a really good question, and I thank that member for that. I think the answer to that will come down to the different agencies and also whether or not they have a social media presence. If you think about it, some of them will; some of them won\u2019t. But I think when we talk about using the internet, it\u2019s actually about trying to access as many people as possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EMy expectation as a Minister is that if we\u2019re going to use modern technology, we should use it to reach as many people as we can. That would be the expectation. Otherwise, why change it? We\u2019d just stick to newspapers. But I think that\u2019s a very good point, and I would encourage all of the Government\u2019s agencies to use all of the means possible, because all we say is \u201Cthe internet\u201D. We don\u2019t say \u201Cthe website\u201D; we say, \u201Cthe internet\u201D. So, in my view, that opens it up for use everywhere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022adb68c31f94048e1a7d2f5033cc6bbbb\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Act 2009\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u002222e5a67a5ce04cbcb238b8fe66221620\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222e5a67a5ce04cbcb238b8fe66221620\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 8 to 12, \u201CAmendments to Anti-Money Laundering and Counter Financing of Terrorism Act 2009\u201D. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4b604efeec64ff1968a57dc2334a20f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4b604efeec64ff1968a57dc2334a20f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, just in terms of the Minister\u2019s earlier, original speech, she did observe that this is a non-contentious bill and that it\u2019s bundled together because they might not get the legislative attention they need. I must say it\u2019s surprising to see this being done in urgency, because I think that is the definition of a non-urgent bill. Having said that, we are here in urgency, and one of the jobs of an MP\u2014all MPs\u2014is to scrutinise. So that\u2019s exactly what we will do as we go through these various parts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EI want to talk about clause 9 because it\u2019s actually a really unusual clause, because clause 9 deals with occasional transactions. The original section 5(1) identifies a number of transactions which are one-off transactions which raise red flags, and therefore kind of fall within the anti - money-laundering regime. Then, further paragraphs carve out things, and one of the things they carve out was cheque deposits. Now, in 2009, a one-off cheque deposit was unexceptionable. I can understand that\u2019s why it was carved out, because if someone gets even a large cheque, sells a car, gets $20,000, it could be paid for by cheque if you were a trusting person back in the day, and you deposit it\u2014a transaction which is occasional but doesn\u2019t really cross the threshold of suspicious.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EHowever, where we\u2019re revisiting this definition, which is what we\u2019re doing, by adding \u201Cmade at a registered bank or non-bank deposit taker.\u201D, which is a strange addition because they\u2019re the only places at which you could deposit cheques, anyway, the fact of the matter now is that you can\u2019t actually deposit cheques at a bank. If you are going to somewhere which accepts cheques, you\u2019re doing something which is truly odd. It may be that you could make a special arrangement or there may be non-bank deposit takers out there which will, essentially, take your cheque and, essentially, buying it off you at its face value and then clearing it through a unique system, because there is no clearing system for cheques any more. Cheques are gone. So I would have thought that if someone\u2019s bandying about with a cheque for $20,000 now, that is a red flag.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EIn fact, I\u2019m interested to understand why we are making provision for cheques deposited at a registered bank or non-bank deposit taker when that is not a system that actually exists, and someone going around with these negotiable instruments is, in fact, I would have thought, something which the police and their financial team would want to know about because it\u2019s a suspicious transaction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u00222cf32c2f061b4e42be848716a3c11e88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cf32c2f061b4e42be848716a3c11e88\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank the member for his comments and for his question, because I admit, when I first looked at it, I thought very much the same thing. But, actually, there are banks that still honour bank cheques, and what has been the status quo is now actually just being tidied up. So the whole reason for this is because there are still bank cheques out there that are still being captured by these, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u002225458ff99e2546d089fc191ff8fe270f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225458ff99e2546d089fc191ff8fe270f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry, members, but the time has come to break for the dinner break.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 5.58 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u00227f3ce9927c0d4bd48dcc44abebff910e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f3ce9927c0d4bd48dcc44abebff910e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, everyone. The committee stage is resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022 data-id=\u002210b6054489334fbe9f36c1f16714437d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210b6054489334fbe9f36c1f16714437d\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just following on from my colleague Duncan Webb\u2019s questions to the Minister, which were, I believe, around clauses 8 and 9, I wouldn\u2019t mind moving on to clauses 10 and 11 in Part 2. These are also in relation to the changes that are proposed under the amendments to the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Act 2009. The question in relation to clause 10 is just really a very quick question\u2014both in relation to subclause (1) and subclause (2). They seem to be just reorganising the same information. I can\u2019t recall specifically discussing that or the rationale for that, but if the Minister has anything to add, I\u2019d be interested in that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EThen, in relation to clause 11, which makes changes to section 40 of the Act, I do have some more substantial questions for the Minister, because, in this particular part, there appears to me to be more substantive\u2014I\u2019m not saying it\u2019s substantive in the sense that it goes against what the bill is trying to achieve through making minor and technical amendments, but there is a few changes to a couple of things. The first thing I noted was essentially there\u2019s a carve-out, as I can see it, for law firms. When I looked at the original bill that this is replacing, it appeared to me that there wasn\u2019t a carve-out for law firms. I could be wrong on that, but I wanted to know specifically why law firms would have a longer period of time to report suspicious behaviour than other entities. In a way, I would have thought it was the other way around because, I think, law firms are often used to being able to identify suspicious activity. Of course, there\u2019s a carve-out there for privileged information. I suppose a possible reason could be that they are assessing whether the information is privileged and whether they can make that disclosure. I just wondered if there was any further explanation that officials could give as to why that was put in place. That\u2019s my question in relation to clause 11.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003ENow, in clause 12, there is an additional extension of the period of time\u2014in fact, a doubling of the reporting entity\u2019s period of time\u2014that they have from 10 days to 20 days. Again, it\u2019s a doubling of the time. It\u2019s a longer period of time. I imagine there\u2019s a public interest in having these things reported as soon as practicable, and I don\u2019t know if there was a particular instance that led to wanting to make this period of time longer, but I will be interested to know the rationale for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EEssentially, those are my questions. Why is the law firm specifically carved out? Why the extension? The other question\u2019s more minor\u2014whether there is any information the Minister has?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef3fcdd0159d4f24b764d59674379925\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef3fcdd0159d4f24b764d59674379925\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. In relation to the questions for clauses 10, 10A, 11, and 12 in Part 2 on the anti-money laundering: the amendments have been made because the current provisions are unclear as to what needs to be gathered. As a result, the enhanced customer due diligence is being undertaken everywhere. This is the issue that we\u2019ve had with kids no longer being able to open bank accounts because they cannot provide a letter or a bill that has their name on it and, therefore, they don\u2019t meet the criteria.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EClause 10 was about removing unnecessary customer due diligence in areas where there is no risk\u2014for example, kids trying to open a bank account. But I really like what the Governance and Administration Committee did, which is they basically confirmed that we don\u2019t need to have the minor customer due diligence there but rather have enhanced due diligence where it\u2019s need. So the select committee made a change at that stage, and I\u2019ve accepted it. I thought it actually made it quite tight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EIn regard to clauses 11 and 12, which is extending the time frames from three to five working days for the law firms for the carve out, also for the extended time frames for the prescribed transaction reports from 10 to 20 days, this is actually to get better, more well-informed reports, instead of having rushed reports. It allows more time so that the agencies can produce something that is more meaningful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EAt the moment, it\u2019s being rushed, and it\u2019s not very high quality. If we\u2019re to really go after the criminal assets\u2014or not criminal assets but the criminal intent, I should say\u2014then having really good, prescribed transaction reports and the extended couple of days\u2019 time frame for the law firms means that they can not only do their due diligence but also come up with some really good quality reports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022222f35b9b4db4792828005ba30a59bca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022222f35b9b4db4792828005ba30a59bca\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair\u2014couple of different points. The first relates to clause 10A, which talks about due diligence according to the level of risk involved. My reading of it\u2014and I\u2019m happy to be educated about the Act itself\u2014is that there is no real expansion of what level or risk is. I know that this is going to be administered by the Department of Internal Affairs, and they can give guidance and so on, but there\u2019s always a danger when it\u2019s just guidance rather than legislative direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EObviously, things like where the funds come from, who the customer is\u2014if it\u2019s a kid, it\u2019s less risky, but there\u2019s still some risk there\u2014the length of time that the customer has been a customer, and all kinds of other matters would contribute to the level of risk. I think that when we\u2019re debating this\u2014and this debate is taken as some guidance as to legislative intent\u2014I\u2019d invite the Minister to talk about what kinds of things would be relevant to assessing the level of risk. The danger is always that people who want to make life easier for their client or customer kind of downgrade the level of risk and say, \u201CWell, I\u2019ve known you for a long time, so you selling me gold bullion isn\u2019t risky at all.\u201D So I\u2019d be interested to know that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EThe other question is about clause 11, which talks about suspicious activities, and it has a couple of exceptions. It says in section 40(1), in clause 11, \u201CA reporting entity other than a high-value dealer or law firm must, as soon as practicable but no later than 3 working days \u2026\u201D. I\u2019m really interested in high-value dealers, because if you look at the definition of high-value dealers and you see what they deal in, it seems that bullion, fine art, jewels and jewellery, luxury motor vehicles, and luxury boats are the kinds of things, and these are things that are absolutely the stock and trade of money-launderers. The other thing about it, particularly things like jewels and bullion, is that it moves quickly and is largely untraceable. Cars might be one thing\u2014a bit easier to track down\u2014but if you\u2019ve got someone with a million dollars\u2019 worth of gold bullion, it\u2019s actually not that much gold. If you wait a long time to report it, then you\u2019ve got a problem. So I\u2019m interested in why high-value dealers are put alongside law firms, because law firms deal with known parties, with bank accounts, and with electronic money transfers mainly, whereas high-value dealers are dealing with tangible movable goods, which would seem to me to be an entirely different level of risk. So I\u2019d be interested to know why high-value dealers are put alongside lawyers and law firms in that respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022230d664769334c51b5e10364775b3c69\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022230d664769334c51b5e10364775b3c69\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Unlike the previous Government, this Government actually wants our agencies, especially in the anti - money-laundering area, to be able to take a risk-based approach on activities. They haven\u2019t been able to do that, and this is the importance of having a single supervisor that will give guidance to how businesses will operate. We don\u2019t need to put everything into legislation. What we actually need to do is allow businesses to get on with doing business and to do it as unhindered as possible. So the risk-based approach means that those agencies will take all things into account. At the end of the day, they are the ones that are going to have to report suspicious activity reports, prescribed transaction reports, and they will understand what it is that they have to do with guidance from the Department of Internal Affairs. And I will note that guidance has been minimal if at all from the three supervisors over the last 12 years. So moving to the single supervisor to provide guidance is freeing up businesses to be able to get on and do business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EIn regard to the other businesses that are beside law firms, I think the member might have actually answered his own question about why we have got these high-value businesses alongside the law firms. It\u2019s because they are dealing with high-value commodities, those that are transacted, as the member himself pointed out, in useful money laundering. This is why they have been brought in. I commend the member for answering his own question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226db4c3eb43894c619b884376b88f3ea6\u0022\u003EPart 3  Amendments to Armed Forces Discipline Act 1971\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u002212f8813658ef42e79ea9dcad682b4412\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212f8813658ef42e79ea9dcad682b4412\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 3. Part 3 is the debate on clauses 13 to 15, \u201CAmendments to Armed Forces Discipline Act 1971\u201D. The question is that Part 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022 data-id=\u002220f7e7373f6440c5b2ada0bb10fbb4e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220f7e7373f6440c5b2ada0bb10fbb4e3\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. We\u2019re moving on from money laundering to the armed forces, and a relatively old\u2014well, I wouldn\u2019t say old; I wouldn\u2019t want to offend anyone who was born in 1971, but a statute which has been on the books since 1971, which is a reasonable period of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EI looked at this part, and I was interested in clause 14, which is the operative part of this Part 3. I did look it up to see what the deletion was. The deletion is limiting the Armed Forces Discipline Committee, which is a committee I actually hadn\u2019t heard of before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EI was unsure as to why that was the case, and I\u2019d be interested if the Minister had any insight into: is the Armed Forces Discipline Committee working as it should be? Is there a reason that this section requires, as a minor and consequential change, to be deleted? Obviously, it\u2019s been in place for a significant amount of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EThe second quick question I had in Part 3 was in relation to clause 15, and I did look at this as well: when you look at this particular section, section 117ZA(2)(b), it actually doesn\u2019t really make sense to have \u201Cwider\u201D instead of \u201Cunder\u201D. I wanted to ask the Minister: was this change made in the 2009 changes to the primary legislation, which I understand\u2014I could be wrong\u2014was when section\u00A0117ZA was put in place, and is that, in fact, so minor and inconsequential that it was in fact a typographical error? So that\u2019s my question to the Minister on Part 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022bda93fbf3591405daeae18bc51ff845c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bda93fbf3591405daeae18bc51ff845c\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Clause 14 is really just fixing a historical oversight, and it\u2019s removing any inference that the power identified in section\u00A087A(2) rests with the Armed Forces Discipline Committee. In other words, the committee does not have such a power. It\u2019s fixing that. I think that actually might have come about because this bill was first introduced under Labour, and I think it was one of the things that Labour had picked out, so I\u2019m carrying it on because it was picked up. The changing of the word \u201Cwider\u201D to \u201Cunder\u201D is just fixing a grammatical error.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c34f932d08b54480a23bb3f0c5397af4\u0022\u003EPart 4  Amendments to Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Act 2021\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022dea8fd2ae1bf4d69a2142510c2240975\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dea8fd2ae1bf4d69a2142510c2240975\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 4. This is the debate on clauses 16 to 18, \u201CAmendments to Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Act 2021\u201D. The question is that Part 4 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u00224970151b845740458da725e66cbc24a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224970151b845740458da725e66cbc24a3\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just have two quick connected questions for the Associate Minister of Justice, just noting that the Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Act 2021 doesn\u2019t actually have a definition as far as I can see in the primary legislation for historical information. Can I just check with the Minister to what extent is any information considered historical? The reason I ask that is under clause 17 in Part 3, a person does not need to confirm their identity to request access to historical information, but if that historical information is still referring to another person who is alive, I wanted to check how that\u2019s going to work. Does that mean that anyone can actually then request that kind of information? That\u2019s all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u00229aeb9c8a1a54438c96f3342f6fef9729\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229aeb9c8a1a54438c96f3342f6fef9729\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I hope this answers the member\u2019s question. Please let me know if it doesn\u2019t sufficiently, and I\u2019ll get further advice from officials.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EMy understanding is that us inserting \u201Cfor non-historic information\u201D after \u201Cin respect of a request\u201D is to clarify the policy intent. It\u2019s only to obtain evidence of identity when accessing non-historical and historic register images. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0eb44c7277e4f13849ac14d6a22cd45\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e2a67d324e94d8a8c51a5a9a48038b1\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. You can\u2019t sort of put a time frame on what is historic; it\u2019s the capturing of the information that\u2019s there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022 data-id=\u0022556c494fa88f4711ade074b49cf90b6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022556c494fa88f4711ade074b49cf90b6e\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thanks for the Minister\u2019s comments. I just acknowledge that, yes, my understanding is a lot of this work was done under a previous Government and has come through, and I appreciate that it won\u2019t be the Minister herself who\u2019s been drafting this, but I appreciate her being able to access the advice through officials and just to clarify some of those instances. But, yeah, I do appreciate that this is a piece of work that has gone on through at least two different Governments now and that it\u2019s a regular way of updating the law. I appreciate the purpose of that, and please don\u2019t think these are directed at her as an individual\u2014but I very much appreciate her candid responses to our questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EIn Part 4, I just had a couple of questions. When I looked at this section, I think it may have related to some of the comments the Minister made earlier in relation to getting rid of barriers in place for people who are wanting to access information\u2014and so this may be another area that she may have been thinking of, as well. This particular section, when I looked at clause 17(1), \u201CSection 88 amended (Person must confirm identity to access information under this subpart)\u201D, the part that was being deleted\u2014and that\u2019s always of interest, of course, because usually with the minor and consequential amendments the reason that you would delete something is that either it\u2019s no longer relevant or it\u2019s duplicated, or something like that. But when I did look into this, this particular section, I think, refers to a lot of the historical information that is actually held online that people may be able to access, and so I just kind of wondered why that would be a deletion entirely\u2014but hopefully the Minister can elucidate on that. I understand that that intention was easier access to information, so hopefully that\u2019s consistent with that goal, even though it is deleting that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EThen the second question I had on this part is really in clause 18. This is replacing a particular clause, and it\u2019s really saying that the identity may be confirmed \u201C(if required)\u201D, in brackets. There\u2019s slightly unusual drafting there, and I just wondered why the advice was that this be put in the bill, because, as I understand it, the intention was to require fewer checks in relation to identification to allow that information to go ahead. I appreciate it\u2019s a tiny part of a much bigger bill, but if the Minister did have any information that she could share with the committee around how those jigsaw pieces work to achieve that aim, I\u2019d be grateful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd61e6641f3e4f1c9524b23f76a205a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd61e6641f3e4f1c9524b23f76a205a2\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I think this answer might also help with the Green member\u2019s earlier question as well. The drafting of sections 88 and 91 of the Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Act 2021 has introduced an unintentional shift in policy where evidence of identity requirements are being applied to all records, regardless of their historical or non-historical classification. The amendment clarifies the original policy intent and makes it clear that an evidence of identity check should only be required when accessing non-historical records and historical register images available online.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EFor the next clause, clause 18, it\u2019s the same reasoning, which is that the drafting of those sections\u00A088 and 91 in the 2021 Act has introduced an unintentional shift in policy direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 4 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ffde255613f9402cbc35f4e7d1110763\u0022\u003EPart 5  Amendments to Building Act 2004 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u00221dffc34382b148e389bdc29038b093f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221dffc34382b148e389bdc29038b093f1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 5. Part 5 is the debate on clauses 19 to 21, \u201CAmendments to Building Act 2004\u201D. The question is that Part 5 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u00229fbab579119143afbee669d0345560d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fbab579119143afbee669d0345560d5\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Just a brief question on this part, because it is a relatively short part. It appears that waivers and modifications under section 67 of the Building Act relate to the building code, and then 67A, I think, relates to swimming pools, in that there\u2019s a separate regime\u2014I think under a separate Act, actually\u2014for swimming pools, and that\u2019s reflected also in the section 177 amendment in the Statutes Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EI\u2019m curious as to why the words \u201Cthe building code\u201D are removed, because I\u2019m assuming that section 67 waivers or modifications or the applications for determinations are still under the building code and seems to be a kind of retrograde step to no longer refer to waiver and modifications and determinations under the building code, because it simply lacks clarity. Even if section 67A is about swimming pools, section 67 is still absolutely about the building code. So I\u2019m just wondering why there\u2019s the removal of the words \u201Cbuilding code\u201D in those clauses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6f1da7a65ac4a6b8e5c0162a0bfab78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6f1da7a65ac4a6b8e5c0162a0bfab78\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. For both clauses 20 and 21, I\u2019m advised that these are consequential amendments that should have been made in 2017, but they were missed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 5 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b27b8b45406c4468a29722fdf2f8aad0\u0022\u003EPart 6  Amendment to Burial and Cremation Act 1964\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022315f4ef8b9e844fcb9553753e06f2255\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022315f4ef8b9e844fcb9553753e06f2255\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 6. Part 6 is the debate on clauses 22 and 23, \u201CAmendment to Burial and Cremation Act 1964\u201D. The question is that Part 6 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022 data-id=\u00224b4f4c439d5444d79ee8808136ac7bae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b4f4c439d5444d79ee8808136ac7bae\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Well, we\u2019re dealing with all of the quite interesting Acts in this bill, and this one is from 1964. When I\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229a9c205f95fc4f5c8943b440b9f5cb1d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd2a4d8f37634124a07904103320e02b\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: Great year\u2014great year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9dcd76fdb1644c0b329e4f521f12b86\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CA great year.\u201D, Grant McCallum says. Obviously, this Act has been in place for quite a period of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003ENow, this was actually quite interesting, when I looked into this particular clause. It appears to me that in clause 23\u2014which is the only operable part, really, in Part 6\u2014that, essentially, what this is doing is making sure that a certificate on the cause of death can\u2019t be entered if there is a suspicious reason for that particular death. That seems to me like it\u2019s quite a serious matter, and I just wondered maybe\u2014obviously, it\u2019s such a small part of the Act, and I have gone back to the Burial and Cremation Act 1964 to kind of make sense of this provision. But the question I had, really, is that this appears to be a bit of an operable change in terms of making sure that a really important thing\u2014a certificate as to the cause of death\u2014is not given in inappropriate circumstances, and considering that this has been in place since 1964, what has arisen for this change? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EI did look at whether there had been some further amendments to the 1964 primary Act, and I think that there was a 2018 change to a change that was brought in in the 2016 Parliament. But I suppose that the question I have\u2014and I\u2019m slightly hesitant to ask the Minister for fear of her response. But does that mean that from 2018, we\u2019ve had a bit of a hole in the law in terms of the nature of how\u2014these are very serious matters, and very important matters for families, of course\u2014certificates as to the cause of death were or could have been issued in inappropriate circumstances? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u00226289b744894741e18f1ce47df175558a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226289b744894741e18f1ce47df175558a\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s not the 2018 amendment. It was the Coroners Amendment Act 2016. That one actually repealed section\u00A013(1)(b) of the Coroners Act 2006. This is a consequential amendment, because that subsection was actually replaced with section 14(2)(f), but the reference was not updated at the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 6 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e26f076ecba7488cb8efd5acdc757f2a\u0022\u003EPart 7  Amendments to Conservation Act 1987\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u002269b2b656b79745238baf3c3eb156fd7d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269b2b656b79745238baf3c3eb156fd7d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we\u2019ll come now to Part 7. This is the debate on clauses 24 to 35, \u201CAmendments to Conservation Act 1987\u201D. The question is that Part 7 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u00223de22ddcf6e84905a4056259d7dc18a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223de22ddcf6e84905a4056259d7dc18a6\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m sure my friend Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan will have something further to say. I\u2019m just curious for a clarification here as to the need for this amendment, because it appears to me, if I\u2019ve got it right, this creates an infringement offence called \u201CTaking indigenous freshwater fish without authority\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EI think that the short name for indigenous freshwater fish is whitebait. At least, that\u2019s the general view. Although there are, of course, other freshwater fish, the most fished freshwater fish is whitebait. I haven\u2019t managed to trawl through the statute book, but it was always my understanding that it was already an offence to whitebait out of season.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EHaving had a chance to have a quick look at some of the other sections\u201426ZHB, \u201Cor an authorisation\u201D, and so on\u2014I understand that they\u2019re essentially saying that where the season is open, you can go and get your whitebait providing that it\u2019s, essentially, for personal use or even for sale, but within set rules: location, timing, and so on. Now, am I to understand that whitebaiting out of season to date has, in fact, not been an offence and this is the first time that we need this because there\u2019s a gap? Or have I got that wrong? If I have got that wrong and it is already an offence to take indigenous freshwater fish without an authority, why do we now need this? That\u2019s the question there: just, essentially, what\u2019s the gap that we\u2019re filling? Was there a gap? If there was, that\u2019s surprising. If there isn\u2019t, why do we need this section?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022d178e75635fc45049f5564d48033a0b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d178e75635fc45049f5564d48033a0b0\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m a little, I guess, surprised by the member\u2019s question, especially around the indigenous freshwater fish, because in 2019 the then Labour Government put through the Conservation (Indigenous Freshwater Fish) Amendment Act 2019. This amendment here in clause 34 relating to Part 6A of the principal Act is addressing the gap in the infringement regime that should have been amended by the amendment Act. The previous amendment omitted to amend Part 6A of the principal Act, which is dealing with the infringements. There is now a gap in the infringement regime as a result. So the penalty is actually consistent with other lesser offences under the principal Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EJust while I\u2019m on my feet, Madam Chair, I think I might just speak to clause 35 amending section\u00A059 as well, because I expect a question on that. The amendment that we\u2019re making there is to seek to align the Conservation Act with the Fisheries Act and remove any potential legal uncertainty that may be there. So the proposal that we have for that section is also just clarifying the status quo.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022c23091b277a043fd9257b006bfbeee33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c23091b277a043fd9257b006bfbeee33\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Minister, for the clarification. Just an initial comment for the member who said that 1964 was a very good year, I would have assumed that for that member, 1974 would have been a much more appropriate year\u2014i.e., because you look so young, just in case that was lost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ENow, just to the Associate Minister of Justice, in terms of clause 34, to clarify, the Minister\u2019s saying that the \u201Cperson must not take indigenous freshwater fish\u201D is already in existence, but the infringement aspect wasn\u2019t there, so hence this particular clause is adding 51CA(1) to add the infringement part of something that is already not allowed under section 26ZHB. That\u2019s my first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EMy second question is just on clause 35, amending section 59. I really appreciate the Minister\u2019s clarification, but I want to check in the current legislation, because this part in the principal Act refers to fisheries officers and honorary fishery officers. By deleting \u201Cto exercise powers in relation to freshwater fisheries\u201D, is it because the current legislation actually has now inadvertently limited fishery officers and honorary fishery officers to freshwater fisheries only, but then by removing it, fishery officers and honorary fishery officers\u2014because I know that they often also patrol harbours and coasts, etc.\u2014they\u2019ll actually now be able to exercise the power in saltwater environments. Is that why that bit was removed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022757cce43cabd4366a2463ac504198bc0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022757cce43cabd4366a2463ac504198bc0\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just answering the last part of your question, Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan, the description of fisheries officers\u2019 powers aligns with the Fisheries Act 1996. So we\u2019re looking for consistency there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EAnd, yes, the offence for clause 35, creating an infringement offence, is to match the existing offences currently in section 26ZHB of the Conservation Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022 data-id=\u002219b040146a874d33b1ba219b855af7d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219b040146a874d33b1ba219b855af7d1\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. These changes to the Conservation Act 1987 are probably some of the more substantive changes in this bill, so I think that\u2019s probably the reason that there are a few more questions on these changes. I thank the Minister for her earlier answers, too, because there were a few questions that I had that she\u2019s now addressed in relation to this. Of course, the next part is also focused on Conservation Act changes as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EThe question that I really had is: the Minister said that these changes, especially in relation to offences, were to be put in because there was a gap in the piece of legislation that had previously been passed by an earlier Parliament\u2014and I accept that. I just wanted to check whether\u2014because another thing that I thought was that, obviously, in the last Parliament, the Resource Management Act was repealed, and there were a number of consequential changes to lots of different pieces of legislation as a result of that repeal, and, of course, there\u2019s a number of references to the Resource Management Act in a number of additional statutes, not just the primary piece of legislation. I wanted to ask, was the reason for some of these amendments needing to be put back in place partly as a result of that subsequent repeal, and then the fact that the Resource Management Act is now\u2014until it is again repealed, which we understand it may be by this Government\u2014the primary piece of legislation? That\u2019s specifically in relation to clause 33. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EThe other question I had is just in relation to these fines, and can I just check with the Minister that these fines that have been imposed\u2014because these are quite significant fines in this Act. It\u2019s essentially making someone liable, if they\u2019re convicted in respect of offences under this Conservation Act, for a term of imprisonment \u201Cnot exceeding 2 years and a fine not exceeding $100,000\u201D, and also to a further $10,000 fine. I just wanted to clarify: is that new, is that a rewording, or is that filling the gap and making this particular offence that is under the Conservation Act consistent with existing law? I\u2019ll refer to my colleague Dr Duncan Webb, who I would say is more experienced in criminal law, but this does appear to be an unusual provision to have within a statutes amendment bill and also in the Conservation Act. I\u2019m sure that there\u2019s a very, very logical reason for that, but I just thought, because it is a substantive restriction on liberty, that we should probably make sure that we have that exactly well clarified in this type of bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EAnother question I had was in relation to clause 32 and whether these responsibilities that are put in place in relation to the Fish and Game Council\u2014in relation to their focus on sustainability and the impacts of fishing\u2014are not new provisions thought up under this Act but are somehow adding consistency or restating the policy reasons that are already in place within this new section, section\u00A07, which comes after section 17M(6). I\u2019m just wondering if the Minister did have some more advice and if she might be able to just assure the House, really, in relation to these provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022be28ed89bb1d45f686b276232e0dc2fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be28ed89bb1d45f686b276232e0dc2fb\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. My understanding is that clauses 25 to 32, which were in the draft, have been removed. It could be that I\u2019m looking at something different but maybe the member could just clarify a little bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EIn relation to the other questions that the member asked, she made a comment about these being potentially substantial changes. They\u2019re not. We\u2019re basically clarifying the status quo, and with regard to the infringement offence, the offence already exists. We are simply creating an infringement offence, and I think an infringement offence is much better for a person to be able pay\u2014an infringement or a fine\u2014than having to go to the District Court. So that\u2019s why there are changes there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 7 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223f90e7b36709463cbca100c987c2193f\u0022\u003EPart 8  Amendment to Conservation Amendment Act 1996\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022eda64afb632044a69507551ea138eec1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eda64afb632044a69507551ea138eec1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 8. Part 8 is the debate on clauses 36 and 37, \u201CAmendment to Conservation Amendment Act 1996\u201D. The question is that Part 8 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4da241445204ac89461995ef2d5a54b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4da241445204ac89461995ef2d5a54b\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a very short question for the Minister on this part. My understanding of Part 8 is that the replacement sections we\u2019re looking at in clause 37 are already in existence in the current legislation and this part is just a tweaking of the numbering. But based on what was in the introduction section, what did pique my interest is that this section has not gone live because it requires an Order in Council, but everything else in this Act has gone live almost 30 years ago in 1996. I was just curious, with this update, is there an intention by the Minister or by the Government to potentially put through an Order in Council to make it happen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc5489f83dc549ecac9135632f9c1b37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc5489f83dc549ecac9135632f9c1b37\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. My job, or my role, in this is not about the implementation of things but rather fixing an error where we\u2019ve got two parts that are numbered the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022962962bcf1c747f182dbeeda68da893d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022962962bcf1c747f182dbeeda68da893d\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s good to see officials here who are able to help the Minister out if she doesn\u2019t have the details at her fingertips, and I can perfectly understand why that\u2019s the case here. The question as to why we\u2019re amending an amendment Act is actually really relevant. The other thing is this: it strikes me that the substance of these sections are exactly the same; no person should act as a sports fishing guide; a person must not act as a sports fishing guide unless they hold a current sports fishing guide licence; unless he or she holds a current sports fishing guide licence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EI\u2019m perplexed as to why we are\u2014because all this is doing is updating wording, which is actually a revision task rather than a statute amendment task. We\u2019re doing a really odd thing, which is amending an amendment Act. One question: why couldn\u2019t we just use a revision Act if we just want to modernise language. But the other one is: why aren\u2019t we just amending the Conservation Act? If we wanted to make it an offence to not have a sports fishing guide licence or to use a gaff on freshwater fish, all of which is fine by me, then why aren\u2019t we just amending the Conservation Act itself? I see you\u2019ve got some advice here, so it would be useful to know that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5f41c0176db4d24946dc586c2bc750e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5f41c0176db4d24946dc586c2bc750e\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E These are minor, technical, and non-controversial amendments. We\u2019re not going into amend whole entire sections. The whole point of trying to get cross-party support on these statute amendment bills is because of the minor technical and non-controversial nature of them. We are renumbering clauses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 8 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c2d0b9db57cf41eb8cf4b35968a06641\u0022\u003EPart 9  Amendments to Coroners Act 2006\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u00223d66e5405d66402f9c25ec65b541bcee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d66e5405d66402f9c25ec65b541bcee\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 9. This is the debate on clauses 38 to 41, \u201CAmendments to Coroners Act 2006\u201D. The question is that Part 9 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022 data-id=\u0022d10c0c06176843028912e8a490964436\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d10c0c06176843028912e8a490964436\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the Minister. I\u2019ve been listening intently, understanding the exercise of this legislation, particularly as the Minister has already answered in terms of Part 6. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022\u003EIn terms of Part 9, I\u2019m interested in clause 39, \u201CSection 14 amended (Deaths that must be reported under section 13(2))\u201D. What is helpful is that in that section\u2014in the principal Act\u2014it lists all the different reasons, and right at the end it describes and categorises different illnesses and why they must be reported, and I\u2019m just curious, Minister, as to what advice you received from\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b763a3f099ee4bf3af5f07bca42bc7f4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just clarify please, member, which particular section you\u2019re referring to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291b2bfe1b8d4462fbbd03a455d95f0f7\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE\u003C/span\u003E: Section 14\u2014it\u2019s clause 39, \u201CSection\u00A014 amended\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236b4d7e509dc4523b0d4b2b026cfd908\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2532dcce0f441c6bb2728d6b4da5345\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE\u003C/span\u003E: What I\u2019m interested in is that it lists deaths that must be reported. In terms of the list, I\u2019m curious and what I want to understand\u2014and the Minister\u2019s explained a number of times that they\u2019re minor technical amendments and they\u2019re non-controversial, and there is cross-party support\u2014is what was the advice to the Minister in terms of the amendment. Secondly, in terms of unnatural deaths, what I just read was that sometimes when medical staff have to give a clear reason as to the illness that leads to the death, they have to make a call in terms of describing how that person passed away. I just want to understand very quickly what advice has been given to the Minister in terms of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u002233d434de4b9744d2aa206bfac0fa8a4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233d434de4b9744d2aa206bfac0fa8a4d\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This amendment that we\u2019re making here is just correcting a missed consequential amendment. My understanding is that Labour put through a piece of legislation in 2018\u2014I might be wrong there, but it\u2019s effectively the definition of a doctor\u2019s certificate in the Burial and Cremation Act 1964 was repealed by the Burial and Cremation Amendment Act 2016 and replaced with a new definition of \u201Ccertificate of cause of death\u201D in 2018. All we\u2019re doing here is aligning the wording so that it matches and is consistent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u00222b9f7408c4054b8ab038ab787fa1fc9c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b9f7408c4054b8ab038ab787fa1fc9c\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just another short question for the Minister. For clause 41 amending section 132: this particular section 132(2)(a) I think currently\u2014please correct me if I\u2019m wrong\u2014the reading is that it is an exclusive list and there are six items on that list. I want to check with the Minister on whether that should be more of an inclusive list, i.e., by framing it as \u201Cwhich may include the following items that will allow the chief coroner or associate coroner to have more flexibility.\u201D Or does the Minister think that those particularly named six items\u2014subparagraphs (i) to (vi), including the two that have just been added here\u2014are actually sufficient and those are the limitations that we want in terms of practice notes? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u002270fd7f7cc48542f2820b136beb54c3f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270fd7f7cc48542f2820b136beb54c3f3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I call the Minister, the Hon Dr\u2014the Hon Nicole McKee. I\u2019ve promoted you! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022698543eb5d76451f86e47953968a857e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022698543eb5d76451f86e47953968a857e\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. For the member Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s question around a more inclusive list, if we were to delve into that, we would move out of the minor, non-technical area there. Especially with the Coroners Act, it becomes quite subjective with two different people, so we\u2019re not looking at that. We\u2019re just making these minor amendments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EWithin that amendment to section 132(2) in clause 41, the first amendment is clarifying that the Chief Coroner may issue practice notes to improve the consistency of decision making and conduct. Currently unclear in the current legislation is whether it is sufficient to enable the Chief Coroner to issue such practice notes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re basically making it really clear that the Chief Coroner can help by issuing these practice notes, but in regard to those six items on the list that you\u2019re talking about, that becomes more than minor, and hence we\u2019re not even delving into that here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022 data-id=\u002240f71fdcf98446788916e851a0c5bc84\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240f71fdcf98446788916e851a0c5bc84\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Just a really quick question that follows on from my colleague Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s question. So in clause 41(2) it actually repeals section 132(2)(b)(v). When I looked up section 132(2)(b)(v), it says that when a coroner issues practice notes, they may have regard to determining whether a person is appropriately regarded as an expert in a particular area. I just wondered if that is a direct repeal. Maybe it is a consequential and minor amendment, but it wouldn\u2019t be unless that came up somewhere else earlier in the legislation or whether it\u2019s duplicated somewhere. So I just wondered really whether this is a repeal because that\u2019s no longer necessary or if, in fact, for some reason it\u2019s drafted so it is included earlier in the legislation and so that is why it\u2019s being repealed. So the question is why is that particular section being repealed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1343581b0434109b1f6fec9302a349d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1343581b0434109b1f6fec9302a349d\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m advised that the changes we\u2019re making, we\u2019re making to clarify the law. We\u2019re already having practice notes delivered by the coroners, so it\u2019s already happening in practice, but it isn\u2019t clear as it should be in legislation. The second amendment that is being made in clause 41\u2014amending section 132, which authorises the issue of practice notes relating to expert evidence\u2014to section 132(2)(a) is to correct a drafting error.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 9 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d36ce68bf71945209ffa194c42ff38f0\u0022\u003EPart 10  Amendments to Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Act 2003 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022cab8117e29e04727b022049a717c4b0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cab8117e29e04727b022049a717c4b0f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 10. Part 10 is the debate on clauses 42 to 44, \u201CAmendments to Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Act 2003\u201D. The question is that Part 10 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u00228e53fa09b80f420883f4e0ae5a3ac2b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e53fa09b80f420883f4e0ae5a3ac2b6\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Act is an Act that\u2019s dear to my heart, and, certainly, if Andrew Bayly was here, he would know what I\u2019m talking about. Don\u2019t worry, David Seymour, you can still get your lattes. Obviously, clause 43 deals with new section 9CA, which is about the inquiries, and the inquiries are affordability inquiries. The rule is that records about affordability inquiries have to be kept, and, I think, they have to be kept for seven years. That is so that if, down the track, someone defaults and they say, \u201COh my goodness, they should never have lent me this money.\u201D, then the bank can produce the analysis that they did and say, \u201CHere you go. You can see that we went through and checked out whether it was affordable or not.\u201D Then, it says here, that \u201CTo avoid doubt, the lender is not required to keep records about inquiries when an application is declined or withdrawn.\u201D Obviously, if you go to a bank and you get halfway through the application process and it\u2019s pretty clear that they\u2019re going to turn you down or you get finance elsewhere and you say, \u201CIt\u2019s all right. I don\u2019t want to be your customer.\u201D, then you can see why this would apply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EI guess, my question is: would this also apply where there\u2019s an existing customer and the inquiries are about, for example, a variation of an existing mortgage? When people are a bit hard up, for example, they often go and ask, \u201CCan I have a little bit more money to tide me over? I\u2019ve just been made redundant. Can I draw another $10,000 down to get me through while I find a new job?\u201D, or, \u201CCan I please reduce my payments, extend my term, or go interest only?\u201D and so on. Those variations also have affordability testing around them as well. Given that they are a customer and it\u2019s about affordability and whether or not the bank should extend them either additional money or some variation to their credit contract terms, if the application is declined\u2014\u201CNo, we\u2019re not going to let you go interest only, even though you\u2019ve just lost your job\u201D\u2014it would strike me that there\u2019s a good argument that those affordability testing information and records should be kept. Whereas, if it\u2019s a person who\u2019s not a customer and never becomes a customer, it\u2019s quite a different situation. Just to avoid doubt, can you confirm that this relates only to loan applications and not variation applications for existing customers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u002224c2f10fb18a4dc49368338bc88c0e10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224c2f10fb18a4dc49368338bc88c0e10\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This change that we\u2019re making is\u2014the reason why we\u2019re doing it is because the current wording is inaccurate and it\u2019s inconsistent with the requirements of section 9CA(2) of the principal Act. So we are merely giving a clarification of the status quo and there is no policy change here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u00220a05254be63e4b428fdca60037e08c33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a05254be63e4b428fdca60037e08c33\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. A quick question to the Associate Minister of Justice on clause 43, the new section 9CA(10). I understand that the lender\u2019s not required to keep records about inquiries when an application is withdrawn, but for an application to be declined, surely the lender would want a record of that in case that person applies again or makes another inquiry, because then they can go \u201COh, this person has been declined multiple times.\u201D So I just want to check in terms of the rationale of including \u201Cdeclined\u201D as a part of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u002203685c8cd6be4d3e9b80412b6dc25970\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203685c8cd6be4d3e9b80412b6dc25970\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The reality is that we don\u2019t keep a lot of papers\u2014or we\u2019ve been required to keep a whole lot of papers\u2014for people who have been declined. Once they\u2019re declined, they don\u2019t need to enter into that system, so there\u2019s no need to keep the paperwork.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022654f7923c7b248f1b61ea155021de902\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022654f7923c7b248f1b61ea155021de902\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Just moving on to another section, which is clause 44, amending section 35, which is about disclosure. This is more paperwork, of course. Disclosures are the documents that contain the key terms of the lending arrangement, which is provided to the borrower and the guarantor. In section 35(2), this section that\u2019s being amended, it says, \u201Cafter \u2018specified\u2019, insert \u2018the same address for the purpose of subsection (1)(b) or\u2019 \u201D, and that relates to electronic addresses. It allows financiers to provide a single set of disclosure documents when borrowers or guarantors provide the same address, and when it\u2019s a postal address, you can see that. If you\u2019ve got two borrowers who might be partners, to send one envelope with one name on it and another envelope with another name on it is a bit silly. The section actually talks about \u201Cinformation systems\u201D, and so what they say is that where the person has specified the same information system, you can send them the same electronic set of documents. That\u2019s actually quite problematic, because an information system\u2014parliament.govt.nz all goes into the same information system. Were my colleague Camilla Belich to be my guarantor, and we both\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229a9c205f95fc4f5c8943b440b9f5cb1d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b4f7bbc226e4a0e8186fafff59bdbc7\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: Ha-ha! Oh, wow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9104d0cdc92427fb64c8978307a5963\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Ha-ha! Well, I would guarantee you any time\u2014I trust you. The point being, if I was the debtor and she was the guarantor, and we both provided parliament.govt.nz addresses with our first names, that is the same information system, so in fact it should say something quite different. It should say \u201Cthe same email address connecting to the same information system.\u201D If we both agree that the appropriate email address is \u201Ccamilaandduncan@xtra.co.nz\u201D\u2014that\u2019s an unlikely address, but there you go\u2014that would be OK because it\u2019s just like our joint letterbox. But an information system is not the same as an email address or a unique email address, and that\u2019s a common error in this kind of email service and email notification framework. There\u2019s a real danger there. The danger, of course, is that I\u2019m a rogue, and all the disclosure documents are sent to me, and I don\u2019t hand them on, and my guarantor never fully understands exactly the extent of their exposure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EMy question there is whether, in fact, the same address should not be clarified to be the same email address for the purposes of subsection (1)(b) and so on and so forth. It is actually quite a problem, and what people don\u2019t understand is that there are some ratbags out there who use rules like this to deceive people\u2014often parents and the like, in fact, and spouses\u2014to enter into either joint arrangements or guarantee arrangements in quite dishonest circumstances. Those disclosure rules are really important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u00220c31ec5fbf6942c69f4907ddd5d8f1d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c31ec5fbf6942c69f4907ddd5d8f1d2\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The change in clause\u00A044, section 35(2) is really just clarification to ensure that we have consistency across all legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 10 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e5d3cbdce672496a827843ab4e6d7136\u0022\u003EPart 11  Amendment to Criminal Investigations (Bodily Samples) Act 1995\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u002236370c429e734328abd632cf39d85e30\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236370c429e734328abd632cf39d85e30\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 11. Part 11 is the debate on clauses 45 and 46, \u201CAmendment to Criminal Investigations (Bodily Samples) Act 1995\u201D. The question is that Part 11 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022de25b7ca8cdf446abef05daa676df857\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de25b7ca8cdf446abef05daa676df857\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This is a question that relates to this Part 11\u2014and apologies, I\u2019m going to slightly jump the gun and also say the same question applies to Part 12, so if the Minister answers this question, it covers both of these parts for me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E In both this particular legislation and the next one, I can\u2019t find a definition\u2014nor in sort of any legislation\u2014on what \u201Ccertain persons\u201D is defined as. Just want to check the Minister\u2019s clarification on how to define that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022316c70e6e7e0468ab3dd80eb1c822fa8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022316c70e6e7e0468ab3dd80eb1c822fa8\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I will presume that there is such a definition, because in law, we need to look for consistency\u2014so I\u2019m going to suggest that there will be one in there, and it will be one that will be more recent. If you have a look at some of these horrid words that were being used\u2014so we\u2019re always looking for consistency in the statutes amendment bills: how do we fix up these small errors? And so that phrase of wording will have been captured from somewhere, in order to create that consistency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022c69abf41ba7a4e5b81159275b742653c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c69abf41ba7a4e5b81159275b742653c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I call on Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan, just to finish off his questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u002293cf1d8604504616b97a85517fffa482\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293cf1d8604504616b97a85517fffa482\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Just one little thing, thank you. I wholeheartedly agree with the Minister, but if the Minister, maybe, or the official through the Minister, wouldn\u2019t mind, just to satisfy my curiosity\u2014which legislation will be able to find the definition in? That\u2019d be fantastic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022 data-id=\u00220b8cda9a47de46a695adc26222ef27e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b8cda9a47de46a695adc26222ef27e3\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E That was going to be my question, too. But I did just want to add to the Minister\u2014I think she maybe is turning around to ask her officials, but I did look in the Criminal Investigations (Bodily Samples) Act for the definition. I did look in the Criminal Records (Clean Slate) Act, which I know is the next part. And I did also look in the Crimes Act, and I know the Crimes Act is a very long Act so it may be that I\u2019ve missed it in there, but it would be, I think, very helpful if the Minister could come back with where that definition of \u201Ccertain persons\u201D is. I just want to add my voice to the Minister\u2019s concern that she raised around these words and isn\u2019t it regretful that this House put those words into legislation. If the officials who are assisting her tonight\u2014I think a good focus of this House would be to make sure that no words like this continue to exist in New Zealand\u2019s legislation because they certainly are very offensive and regretful to be included in our statute book. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa8e256899474963ba91c23e5cf02bed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa8e256899474963ba91c23e5cf02bed\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This is actually quite an important point because the list in Schedule 1 to the Criminal Investigations (Bodily Samples) Act is the trigger for when the police can get a DNA swab. It lists the offences which if you commit, you\u2019re obliged to give\u2014and it can be forcibly taken\u2014a bodily sample to go on the DNA register. Everything that\u2019s been said about the outdated titles is true, but if you go to the schedule that\u2019s being amended, it gives you the name of the offence and then the corresponding section in the Crimes Act, and it\u2019s section 138. In fact, the correct section\u2014there is no such crime as \u201Csexual intercourse with certain persons\u201D. It\u2019s just not a crime. So to say, \u201CIf you are convicted of the crime of sexual intercourse with certain persons, then you must give a bodily sample,\u201D\u2014there is no such crime. You will not have to give a sample.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003ESection 138 is in fact the offence of sexual exploitation of persons with a significant impairment, and you can see how that corresponds with the outdated language in the earlier section. It is of a concern to me that, whilst there would be a stretch, it is conceivable that a court could say, well, that old section has been replaced by the new section\u2014the old section 138 has been replaced by the new section 138, and so it actually means sexual exploitation of persons with a significant impairment. But if we have an imaginary offence of sexual intercourse with certain persons, no court, no judge, is going to give an invasion of the person, taking a bodily sample, on the basis of the commission of a crime which simply doesn\u2019t exist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EI would suggest that the Associate Minister of Justice might want to get her officials to actually clarify what they mean by \u201Csexual intercourse with certain persons\u201D, because there\u2019s no such offence and I\u2019m concerned about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u00225e645ed12ab948a08dcbb09014490dbe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e645ed12ab948a08dcbb09014490dbe\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This amendment is to take out really foul language and replace it\u2014I mean, it\u2019s as simple as that. I\u2019m not going to get into detail about what it actually means, because I think it\u2019s quite disgusting. But I think, also, when the member speaks to whether or not we should just have \u201Cimpairment\u201D, not everybody who goes through this is impaired, as such. So I suspect that\u2019s why \u201Ccertain persons\u201D rather than \u201Cimpairment\u201D has been used. Officials are on notice to have a look at \u201Ccertain persons\u201D, and if we move on past this section and I get that answer, I will address it when I\u2019ve got that answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 11 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221f73e90476d14d9b8b288f97d331c59a\u0022\u003EPart 12  Amendments to Criminal Records (Clean Slate) Act 2004\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u00224b0b3f00588c49bd920d232e1f15da8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b0b3f00588c49bd920d232e1f15da8f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 12. Part 12 is the debate on clauses 47 and 48, \u201CAmendments to Criminal Records (Clean Slate) Act 2004\u201D. The question is that Part 12 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022 data-id=\u002221c5b690ac944ec9b0ab6bfc6830877f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221c5b690ac944ec9b0ab6bfc6830877f\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I know that some of the language we\u2019re traversing is similar to Part 11. I just wanted to agree with the Associate Minister of Justice in relation to the modernising of the language in Part 12, as well. What I did want to get\u2014and this is a genuine, good-faith question to the Minister\u2014is whether she, in now using gender-inclusive language in Part 11 and Part 12, thinks there\u2019s a genuine benefit to using gender-inclusive language throughout all legislation. It seems to me like this is a genuinely, really good way of addressing really outdated language, but what I\u2019m aware of, though, is that there is still none the less debate more broadly as to whether using gender-inclusive language in legislation is genuinely beneficial. I think that in this case, in Part 12, it definitely is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EI know that we\u2019ve touched on some of the more kind of graphic terms in Part 11 and Part 12, but I did want to ask more specifically around the benefit and the intent of using gender-inclusive language and the rationale behind that, because I think that\u2019s a genuinely good part of the modernisation of the language. If the Minister wanted to elucidate as to what that means in practice, that would be useful for the committee, and whether she, in her role as Minister, is also intending to explore just any other means to utilise gender-inclusive language for the purpose of legislation to better capture population groups. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u00229c8c84c50520416697905c2f964611b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c8c84c50520416697905c2f964611b0\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. In answer to the Green member\u2019s questions, I think where we can use inclusive language as part of modernisation that we most certainly should, and there\u2019s an opportunity here to do that. I\u2019ve also just been given some information about the \u201Ccertain person\u201D. It\u2019s not defined in legislation; it\u2019s determined by the context of the law in which it\u2019s used. The reference being replaced in Schedule 1 is a phrase summarising what section 138 of the Act is about. The \u201Ccertain person\u201D refers to the persons described in section 138, which is the impaired person and person with significant impairment. I hope that answers the questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u00222bb75ee0e5654a4693de288e40dd043f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222bb75ee0e5654a4693de288e40dd043f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank the Associate Minister of Justice for that clarification. I\u2019m sure the officials are giving me the advice that they have; I hope that it meets the requirements when it comes to getting bodily samples.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EIn terms of the amendments to the Criminal Records (Clean Slate) Act 2004, a strange little thing is thrown up here\u2014in particular, clause 48, the definition of \u201Cspecified offence\u201D. It replaces the very old frame of \u201Cdefiling idiot or imbecile woman or girl\u201D with \u201Cdefiling certain persons\u201D\u2014still using \u201Cdefiling\u201D, strangely, but anyway. The interesting thing about this is that that phrase and a whole lot of other ones are actually offences under the Crimes Act 1908, right? The purpose of those clauses are that it\u2019s a schedule saying \u201CThese things are not clean slated.\u201D Now, the Crimes Act 1908 stopped in 1961 when the new Crimes Act came into force. So the prospect of anyone still alive having committed an offence\u2014how long ago is that?\u201465 years ago is extremely remote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EThe other thing is this: in exactly the same list, it says \u201Cthe following cannot be clean slated:\u201D\u2014and members of this committee might be interested in this\u2014\u201Cincluding unnatural acts\u201D, and those are the old acts against homosexuality. So we\u2019ve got a very strange situation where we\u2019ve got crimes from pre-1961 which cannot be clean slated, including crimes against homosexual, you know, acts, that can be expunged. So I\u2019m very surprised that when we come to do this Statutes Amendment Bill, we didn\u2019t look at the old offences pre-1961 and say, \u201CWell, let\u2019s put a line through those. They\u2019re essentially spent and offensive.\u201D Rather than doing that, we\u2019ve got a simple modernisation of the wording, but we\u2019ve still got a problem that pre-1961 offences, including offences which are no longer offences and which we have agreed should never have been offences, cannot be clean slated. I find that quite problematic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022e625c7a40c5942cdaac1dfa914f31d62\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e625c7a40c5942cdaac1dfa914f31d62\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I see a member\u2019s bill right there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 12 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223147f88a5280490587315493730608a8\u0022\u003EPart 13  Amendments to Crown Entities Act 2004, and Schedule 1 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u002223ca19cd11044290877f64ae8cb0b26f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223ca19cd11044290877f64ae8cb0b26f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 13. Part 13 is the debate on clauses 49 to 57\u2014\u201CAmendments to Crown Entities Act 2004\u201D\u2014and Schedule 1. The question is that Part 13 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022 data-id=\u00222481ccd6550640e9bf99d619dc2aed92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222481ccd6550640e9bf99d619dc2aed92\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I was pleased to see some amendments to the Crown Entities Act 2004 because this falls within the area for which I am spokesperson for our party. Unfortunately, there is not much substantive changes to comment on in here and I think most of the changes speak for themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EI just do have a very quick question for the Minister in relation to clause 57, and that is: is there a more effective way of describing, essentially, which schedule we\u2019re referring to? Because if you read through this, and this is kind of more of a drafting question, but I do think because this is minor and consequential amendments, that is worth raising within that context. Throughout Part 13, we talk about existing statutes that we are amending. Then we get to clause 57 and it states that amendments to other legislation are set out in Schedule 1. Now, the first Schedule 1 I looked at was actually in relation to the Archives Act, and of course, that was wrong. It\u2019s the Schedule 1 that is in this Act which sets out a number of additional name changes to public entities. And so I just wonder if there was a clearer way of showing that the Schedule 1 we\u2019re actually referring to is the Schedule 1 of this Act and not any of the forementioned other enactments which we are amending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u00228402b9c34b4d45bc9a487a2c2fe05812\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228402b9c34b4d45bc9a487a2c2fe05812\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ll take some advice from officials on that. Clause 57 isn\u2019t within my pack because it wasn\u2019t changed. But if your point that you\u2019ve raised is relevant to any changes, I\u2019ll take advice from them on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 13 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002298767b1953724809918dd2e870872d0b\u0022\u003EPart 14  Amendments to Defence Act 1990, and Schedule 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9afc55d05394b84b819c1313cca9bea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9afc55d05394b84b819c1313cca9bea\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 14. Part 14 is the debate on clauses 58 to 65, \u201CAmendments to Defence Act 1990\u201D and Schedule 2. The question is that Part\u00A014 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022cceb622986be413a99a383081d4398d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cceb622986be413a99a383081d4398d8\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a very quick question on Schedule 2\u2014this is in clause 65. In terms of the definition of regulation 3, I want to check why\u2014and I feel that other members in this Chamber who are wing commanders may be better at answering this question\u2014why the leading aviator classification\u00A0includes an aviator classification and an air force cadet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2e32de7da054769923a08a50d298151\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2e32de7da054769923a08a50d298151\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E As we did with the earlier clauses that we spoke about, it\u2019s trying to be gender neutral and inclusive as well. It\u2019s bringing this up to date in terms of known use of certain words in modern legislation and in the workforce. It\u2019s modernising for our future and being inclusive while doing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 14 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226cb3cf84d2344f0d8694b7d87f9b0c2a\u0022\u003EPart 15  Amendments to Electoral Act 1993\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022dff87be9757c4237b565908d47db0f45\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dff87be9757c4237b565908d47db0f45\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 15. Part 15 is the debate on clauses 66 and 67, \u201CAmendments to Electoral Act 1993\u201D. The question is that Part 15 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022d76c7425bac9452c9aeb801495ed4ca0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d76c7425bac9452c9aeb801495ed4ca0\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I find this one a little bit tricky, and I just really want to be sure that we\u2019re not doing something we don\u2019t want to do. The amendment to section 3(1) in clause 67 sets out the definition of \u201Ccandidate\u201D in the Electoral Act. In general, it makes it that \u201Ccandidate\u201D includes a constituency candidate and a list candidate, and, if I\u2019ve got this right, what this does is it distinguishes constituency candidates and list candidates for certain purposes set out originally in Part 6AA and Part 6A of the Electoral Act, but it appears now to say that list candidates are not candidates for the purposes of Part 6B, as well. Part\u00A06B is about the provisions relating to loans and the obligation to disclose loans, and section 214BA makes it clear that candidates must keep records of loans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not entirely clear as to why list candidates, and I presume it\u2019s list-only candidates, because if you\u2019re a\u2014although if you\u2019re a list candidate and a constituency candidate, could you say, \u201CI\u2019m having a loan for my list candidacy but not my constituency candidacy.\u201D? I don\u2019t know. But are we carving out list candidates from all of the regulation around loans, and, if not, what exactly are we doing with this particular section, because if we are carving list candidates out\u2014and I can see that the Minister is getting some advice there\u2014that would be really, really useful to know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022c37730b1d8fc42cc8f254fa8d983be8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c37730b1d8fc42cc8f254fa8d983be8a\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E My advice says that it is \u201CConsequential only. No policy change.\u201D, but I\u2019ll give you a bit more, Dr Webb. We\u2019re amending the definition of \u201Ccandidate\u201D to include a reference to Part 6B. This is a consequential amendment to ensure consistency with the new candidate loan provisions added into Part 6B of the Act by the Electoral Amendment Act 2022. Part 6B was updated previously, and this update amends the definition to reflect those updates. So it is consequential only, and, as my advisers have just told me, there is no policy change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 15 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fce07e12dcd741a3930377d4ddc4107e\u0022\u003EPart 16  Amendment to Employment Relations Act 2000\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u002262a8759b6e084e828f9e89a9d464f33b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262a8759b6e084e828f9e89a9d464f33b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 16. This is the debate on clauses 68 and 69, \u201CAmendment to Employment Relations Act 2000\u201D. The question is that Part 16 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022 data-id=\u0022d33fdbea70fe4e23b2958f9d6e55acb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d33fdbea70fe4e23b2958f9d6e55acb6\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This is another one of my favourite pieces of legislation to look at, so I\u2019m pleased to see it here. I have to say, though, that I\u2019m struggling a wee bit to work out exactly what the change will be in clause 69. That is partly because when I look at the primary legislation which is amending section 233B(6)(g), I look at that section and I try and look for the parts where it says, \u201Creplace \u2018section 28B of the Health and Safety in Employment Act 1992\u2019 with \u2018section 191 of the Health and Safety at Work Act 2015\u2019.\u201D, and it might be the website I\u2019m looking at, but it seems like that change has already been made in the legislation I\u2019m looking at. Maybe I\u2019m totally wrong\u2014probably, that\u2019s the most likely thing\u2014but I was just trying to work out what the change was, and I couldn\u2019t. I don\u2019t know if the Minister could look at that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u00228c30bc37240841aaa917ef2d77f4c2a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c30bc37240841aaa917ef2d77f4c2a3\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. We\u2019re replacing the reference to section 28B of the Health and Safety in Employment Act 1992 because it\u2019s been repealed. It was repealed and replaced with section 191 of the Health and Safety at Work Act 2015. We\u2019re updating the Act so it doesn\u2019t refer to a repealed piece of legislation and, instead, we\u2019ve put in the new piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022 data-id=\u0022109632ca9e5b4e1d87a8c854156cb310\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022109632ca9e5b4e1d87a8c854156cb310\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to the Minister for that explanation. It was just that in the version that I looked at, it appeared like the change that\u2019s in this legislation was already made on the New Zealand Legislation website. I know that\u2019s not a perfect website, and I know that if I was a better lawyer or if I was still a lawyer\u2014I actually can\u2019t call myself a lawyer, because I don\u2019t have a practising certificate\u2014I\u2019d go and get the statute book out, and I\u2019m sure that that would be correct. I just wondered, maybe, as we move on from this part, if officials could just check that that\u2019s the case. Obviously, it\u2019s no big deal if it\u2019s already been made and the change is exactly identical, but it\u2019s maybe just something to note.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022924482bb9b1c471cbd4d043b6a3132db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022924482bb9b1c471cbd4d043b6a3132db\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to the member for looking at that and for raising it. Officials will have a look at it, but even if there\u2019s a word that\u2019s different in what you\u2019re looking at, we need to make sure that there\u2019s consistency. I back my officials with the information, but what I will say is if there is something different, they will bring it to my attention while we\u2019re in the chair, and I will stand up again\u2014even if we\u2019re past this\u2014to explain further if there\u2019s anything else to add to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 16 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f05a7efca64b4ae58ca9849f50a7f482\u0022\u003EPart 17  Amendment to Heretaunga Tamatea Claims Settlement Act 2018 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u002247707fe03a1346e8b88e6a52f669b25a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247707fe03a1346e8b88e6a52f669b25a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 17. This is the debate on clauses 70 and 71, \u201CAmendment to Heretaunga Tamatea Claims Settlement Act 2018\u201D. The question is that Part 17 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac510b87f3b143adb6a061e2b3d7606b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac510b87f3b143adb6a061e2b3d7606b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This is a little unusual. I mean, I have been around a couple of years or so now, and using a Statutes Amendment Bill to change a Treaty settlement Act\u2014and it\u2019s not the only one\u2014is a little unusual. It does look like a technical amendment. The key bit seems to be that there\u2019s a marginal strip\u2014it\u2019s unclear how large it is\u2014that ceases to be a marginal strip under Part 4A of the Conservation Act. It\u2019s unclear to me if that is perhaps going to the iwi or not. But, I guess, there\u2019s just a couple of things I\u2019d ask: what does this actually do, other than change the designation of a marginal strip, and is this something that\u2019s come out of, essentially, consultation with the iwi around implementation of their Treaty settlement and just a wrinkle that\u2019s being ironed out and needs legislation? I just think it would be good for the record to kind of put that down, because it\u2019s a little unusual to see, essentially, a change to a settlement, presumably in favour of the iwi, I hope\u2014that\u2019s the kind of assurance I\u2019d like\u2014in a statutes amendment bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u00221366793245c443e984afd0e12ed85883\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221366793245c443e984afd0e12ed85883\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, the member is quite right that there are two Treaty settlement bills within here that are having amendments. That is, of course, with the approval, in writing, that we have received from iwi who are wanting us to make these changes for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EIn relation to this particular one, the Heretaunga Tamatea Claims Settlement Act 2018, I\u2019ll first start off with \u201CWhat is a \u2018marginal strip\u2019?\u201D, and then explain that to our viewers. A marginal strip is a piece of Crown-owned land generally about 20 metres wide that is reserved along the margins of waterways and are generally retained by the Crown through the Department of Conservation when land is disposed of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EThis proposed amendment is to remove the requirement for a marginal strip of a deferred selection property and replace it with a smaller, tailored esplanade reserve vested in Hastings District Council. This is to account for an error when the property was valued and enable a planned housing development to proceed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 17 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e19bf145fa404debbe29b25fefbfd278\u0022\u003EPart 18  Amendment to Housing Act 1955\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u002200f8e08d6bad404e913371760d4874d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200f8e08d6bad404e913371760d4874d3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 18. Part 18 is the debate on clauses 72 and 73, \u201CAmendment to Housing Act 1955\u201D. The question is that Part 18 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022293abb0ad9524713b765ddb391fb1167\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022293abb0ad9524713b765ddb391fb1167\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I will start, and other people may have questions. Thank you, Madam Chair. Can I just check\u2014I agree with the change, that probably, we don\u2019t use pounds anymore, as prescribed under Land Transfer Act 2017. Now, I think, by just checking online, the current registration fee is $243, possibly. But I wondered, in the current legislation, it\u2019s \u00A31, and there\u2019s nothing that suggests that the application of this bill is retrospective. What would that mean for the people who, up until now, have paid the registration fee that is above \u00A31? Can they get a refund?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022b44b2eecd0194b3ca6b938f5be02417c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b44b2eecd0194b3ca6b938f5be02417c\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for their question, but, no\u2014there\u2019ll be no retrospectivity throughout this. It\u2019s modernising, right? We\u2019re moving from the pound and modernising. May I just come back to the member about Part 16? The change in clause\u00A069 has already been made as an editorial change by the Parliamentary Counsel Office. That was done to fix up an incorrect reference, and it was made on 18 July of this year, so Part 16 is redundant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 18 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022621ae4234b9748cd96e5bc811b4468e5\u0022\u003EPart 19  Amendments to Immigration Advisers Licensing Act 2007\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa4d20ab600441d18262e2db16eab551\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa4d20ab600441d18262e2db16eab551\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 19. This is the debate on clauses 74 to 76, \u201CAmendments to Immigration Advisers Licensing Act 2007\u201D. The question is that Part 19 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9bf2555fd1e4b11b57849730a219505\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9bf2555fd1e4b11b57849730a219505\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you so much, Madam Chair. Looking at the original Act\u2014I\u2019m bringing it up on my laptop\u2014it feels here that we\u2019re adding a few additional criteria in which someone could basically be refused a licence, and that the registrar could be able to consider. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EI\u2019m curious as to how she sees particularly clause 75, amending section 17(c)(iv), playing out in relation to being basically related by employment or association to a person who has a conviction \u201Cfor an offence of a kind\u201D referred to in to in paragraph (a) of section 17 of the principal Act, which basically then paragraph (a) in the original Act is just any conviction, New Zealand or otherwise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EIs the Minister concerned that this particular provision in subparagraph (iv) could be used in a way that could weaponise, for example, quite historical convictions\u2014to give an example, on substance use? So if you have someone who\u2019s related by employment to someone who has had a conviction on substance use, that could prejudice them from being able to become licensed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EIf so, what is the policy objective to basically have the registrar be able to consider someone who may have had a conviction for, say, substance use, in relation not just so much to the person trying to get registered, but in relation to someone they may have been related to by nature of employment or association? Because of the way that subparagraph (iv) connects paragraph (a) in section 17 is so broad, I\u2019m just curious as to why it wasn\u2019t limited to quite narrow, specific types of convictions that genuinely, for example, may prejudice someone from being a good immigration adviser.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u00229babfd3417bd48b693057a33d5b78196\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229babfd3417bd48b693057a33d5b78196\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E The member asked me what the objective of the amendment is. Basically, the reason why we\u2019re doing the amendments, both at clause\u00A075 and clause 76, is to clarify the existing requirements that the Immigration Advisers Licensing Act 2007 require. So it\u2019s updated the legislation to align with what that 2007 Act requires. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EAs to what they look at, that\u2019s getting into operational matters. That\u2019s not for me to determine whether or not substance abuse could be used or not. But what I will say to the member is we do have the Criminal Records (Clean Slate) Act, so after seven years there is the ability, depending on where they\u2019re applying and who they\u2019re applying with, to not have to disclose some past offences that they may have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022299e7fc6ed7442ceac2938374e79cd59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022299e7fc6ed7442ceac2938374e79cd59\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I was just trying to find the Immigration Act on the little electric machine there but couldn\u2019t see it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c7c08eaacc04392ba3642920dbbb5ed\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: The Immigration Advisers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c90b35682ea442a98008b81ca7f5a68a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: The Immigration Advisers Licensing Act. I\u2019m just curious whether this is a new provision, because what it seems to be saying is that in terms of this fitness to practice test\u2014which is common across all professions\u2014who your employer is a relevant question. So if you want to become an employment adviser, you need to get licensed, and in doing that you\u2019ve got to show what your criminal past is or is not and other things as well\u2014whether you cheated at law school, that sort of thing; just the usual.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s quite unusual to say it is relevant to whether you are an honest person whether you\u2019ve been unlucky enough to be employed by a dishonest person, because that\u2019s kind of tainting an employee with an employer\u2019s misdeeds. I guess my question is whether\u2014if that\u2019s the existing law, I\u2019m surprised. I didn\u2019t think it was. If it\u2019s an addition, to say: \u201CWhether or not you\u2019re a good person depends in part on whether or not the person you work for is a good person\u201D, that\u2019s a little problematic. If you have misbehaved\u2014your conduct, as an employee of an immigration adviser, is directly relevant. If you\u2019ve been dodgy or dishonest, that\u2019s relevant. But if you\u2019ve just been a good employee and your employer has been engaging in modern slavery and all sorts of other horrendous things, you can\u2019t really visit that on an innocent employee. So I\u2019m interested to know exactly what this is intended to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea441be1520b45b783a9cc0a21356a07\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea441be1520b45b783a9cc0a21356a07\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. One thing I will note is that this isn\u2019t a new requirement; this is clarification. We\u2019re clarifying the existing requirements that are in the Immigration Advisers Licensing Act 2007. We are amending it so that there is clarity around what sort of information can be gathered, and the licensing and fitness required for the licensing of an individual. We\u2019re amending section 18, which is clause 76, to clarify that an application for licensing as an adviser must include the applicant\u2019s aliases and foreign names. That\u2019s so that we can make sure that the right people are in the jobs of being advisers and that they are looking to give good advice to those that are wanting to immigrate here. So it\u2019s really just clarifying already existing requirements that come under the 2007 Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022 data-id=\u002274a7237b314c4cbab1ec26271042237e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274a7237b314c4cbab1ec26271042237e\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I just have a subsequent question, because it does seem to me like the way that we are replacing section 17(c) with the language, particularly\u2014and I go back to subparagraph (iv). Basically, in paragraph (a), it says that somebody could be refused because they have any conviction, whether in New Zealand or in any other country, for an offence of any kind other than those referred to in section 15 and 16.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003ENow, in section 15 and 16 of the Immigration Advisers Licensing Act 2007, the nature of the convictions someone can basically be rejected from becoming an adviser for are in relationship to offences that have to do with the Immigration Act 2009 as well as the Immigration Act 1987 or the Immigration Act 1964. So most of the provisions in sections 15 and 16 have to do with people who have basically made an offence in relationship to immigration Acts, but the way in which this is now written is that it would broaden the scope of the consideration to effectively any conviction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EIf you have an employment relationship to someone who has any conviction, then basically now that would be considered by the registrar. So this seems more than just simply aligning things to the Immigration Advisers Licensing Act 2007, but broadening what the registrar can consider. Can the Minister please confirm that the changes that she is making to section 16 do not broaden the range of convictions that a registrar is able to consider when it comes to taking matters into account in relationship to someone\u2019s fitness for licensing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EIf this is effectively broadening the range of convictions that the registrar can consider, I\u2019m concerned, then, that more analysis could have and should have been done, so that clarity would be useful, to just ascertain as to whether now we\u2019re just taking basically any conviction from someone who the person is related to by nature of employment or association.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022600f4685f97c475ebf97feafe912ec66\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022600f4685f97c475ebf97feafe912ec66\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. To the member from the Green Party, this is the Statutes Amendment Bill that\u2019s making minor technical and non-controversial changes. When you start to look into areas like section 16\u2014which we have not delved into; we\u2019ve delved into 17 and 18\u2014I believe that that would have been no longer small or minor, and therefore that was not considered as part of the Statutes Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EWhen looking at and addressing the members\u2019 concerns around past history and convictions within an Act, I\u2019m sure that the member would agree with, when it comes to immigration advisers, making sure that we have the right people that are there, not ones that want to exploit migrant workers. I\u2019m sure the Green Party would not like to have people who do that sort of thing with them. So making sure that we have the right people in the job means being able to have a look at their past convictions, means being able to have a look to ensure that they are, in fact, the right person for the job. So what I can confirm to the member is we\u2019re not changing anything here. We\u2019re clarifying the process to strengthen it and tidy it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 19 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002221a6115117674940bb49c03789654502\u0022\u003EPart 20 Amendments to Incorporated Societies Act 2022\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022004bf35af832401e879b780167446d13\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022004bf35af832401e879b780167446d13\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 20, the debate on clauses\u00A077 to 83, \u201CAmendments to Incorporated Societies Act 2022\u201D. The question is that Part 20 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022 data-id=\u00225c5ee65918434288972dc782062df476\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c5ee65918434288972dc782062df476\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. This is a very interesting change that has been made to the Incorporated Societies Act. When I was looking at this change to try and assess what was happening and if I did have any questions for the Minister, I was struck by the fact that we are adding in provincial ordinances to the Incorporated Societies Act. And I have to say, I was not aware of exactly what the definition of a provincial ordinance was. I\u2019m not sure if that shows my naivety or my age, but I looked up the definition in the Incorporated Societies Act\u2014couldn\u2019t find it. But I was not dissuaded. So I googled \u201Cprovincial ordinance\u201D, and I discovered that perhaps the oldest piece of legislation that we have discussed in this statutes amendment debate tonight is the Provincial Ordinances Act 1892 which outlines the provincial ordinances that are still in force. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EI\u2019m assuming this is correct, but it appears from what I\u2019m reading that there are a number that are still in place, and, in fact, any relevant ones will be included now in 2025 in the Incorporated Societies Act. And just for your interest, some of the ones that appear still to be in force are the Auckland Building Act 1858, the Auckland Loan Act 1863, the Gas Company Lease Act 1863. Most of them do seem to be\u2014well, there seem to be actually quite a number of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EThe question I really have is: am I correct? Are these provincial ordinances that were passed under this very, very old piece of legislation\u2014in fact, this Act was passed by the General Assembly of the New Zealand Parliament, which is obviously not what we call ourselves these days. So am I correct in the fact that there are provincial ordinances made under that very old statute still in place that we\u2019re in fact upholding and including now in the incorporated societies legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2bad533c207400eaabc27c9f8938269\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2bad533c207400eaabc27c9f8938269\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Yes, so this amendment is clarifying that a body corporate or other association formed or incorporated under a provincial ordinance specified in regulations made under that principal Act can be re-registered under the principal Act as an incorporated society. Who knew!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 20 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022752c9f982360487abe47aa67a306497b\u0022\u003EPart 21  Amendment to Inquiries Act 2013\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00229fd53e2661774a6c97626d676c884b2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fd53e2661774a6c97626d676c884b2f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come to Part 21. This is the debate on clauses\u00A084 to 85, \u201CAmendment to Inquiries Act 2013\u201D. The question is that Part 21 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9916e45ace74224b4b60b50b965dfb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9916e45ace74224b4b60b50b965dfb6\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. In terms of these statutes amendment bills being simply clarification, it\u2019s pretty well entrenched. It\u2019s just been a few occasions where I think it\u2019s at least arguable that they\u2019ve gone a bit beyond that\u2014and, you know, the immigration one we\u2019ve talked about before kind of expanded rather than clarified. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EThis is another one where the Public Records Act\u2014sorry, the Inquiries Act; this is the interface of the Inquiries Act with the Public Records Act. The original phrasing in section 33(4) of the Inquiries Act simply says that \u201Cfor the purposes of\u00A0Part 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EThis is quite important, because previously if an inquiry said \u201COperation Burnham: this is top secret or this is confidential\u2014this is secret information\u201D, the Chief Archivist could generally make a judgment about that, and doesn\u2019t actually have to keep stuff which is classified\u2014classified forever. He or she could say, \u201CWell, in my view, 10 years has passed and there\u2019s a high public interest in this coming out, so I\u2019m going to release it, or I\u2019m going to release it in part\u201D\u2014or whatever. But all of a sudden, in new subsection (4A), it says that \u201Cmust act consistently with the order\u201D means that \u201Cif the order forbids publication of any thing described in [the sections]\u2026to that thing as restricted access records as defined in [the section]\u201D, then they\u2019ve got to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EI\u2019m concerned that this is actually making things more secret, in overriding what historically has been a wide discretion of the Chief Archivist to make a call on when things should be declassified. We can see from things like Operation Burnham that sometimes there\u2019s a significant public interest in that declassification\u2014because I think we sometimes miss how important our archivist is in both not just keeping and caring for our public records but also in making sure that they are made public when it\u2019s appropriate to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003ESo because the section says, you know, \u201Creplace subsection (4)\u201D, but then it introduces an entire new subsection (4A), which doesn\u2019t just explain what \u201Cact consistently with the order\u201D means, which is the new concept, because we\u2019ve moved from section 33, \u201Ctake into account any order\u201D to \u201Cact consistently with the order\u201D, and that\u2019s a significantly different thing. I\u2019d be interested in the Minister\u2019s comments on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022466b34e79188486788ef7d8fa8b4530a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022466b34e79188486788ef7d8fa8b4530a\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. This amendment is to more clearly enable the relevant department to review or change the public access settings to historical inquiry records. That is the objective of this change. It\u2019s not creating anything new\u2014it\u2019s just clarifying what is already the status quo. I note that the member thought that there could be files hidden. One would actually be a bit more optimistic than that and think that there would be files opened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 21 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227190e0a7f85243078a7571d047a1158a\u0022\u003EPart 22  Amendments to Juries Act 1981\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u002251d8f3a28c9b4b149876b6d13ca2682c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251d8f3a28c9b4b149876b6d13ca2682c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 22, the debate on clauses\u00A086 to 88, \u201CAmendments to Juries Act 1981\u201D. The question is that Part 22 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022 data-id=\u002253fdbe98dbb54ee3926c0ef2eadbd136\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253fdbe98dbb54ee3926c0ef2eadbd136\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just quick questions for the Minister on this\u2014I understand this is just purely deleting a few sections. I couldn\u2019t see why those particular sections\u2014I did look at section 14C(1)(d) and 14C(1)(c), and they did appear to still be in the primary piece of legislation. I could be wrong about that. I\u2019m interested to know what the Minister\u2019s answer to that is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, there\u2019s not really anything more to say about this apart from that it\u2019s a particularly interesting section that it\u2019s amending, section 12A. This is the section that allows you to be given leave to not attend jury service, and, interestingly, the provision that allows you to avoid jury service if you are dead. I did not realise that it was required for that to be put down specifically in legislation, but, there you go\u2014if you do check out section 12A(1)(e)\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221b480c076f24f44b7f684e357d995dd\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: It would be a hung jury!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb26f73062c249eabce337d14b94fc9d\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. Yes, that\u2019s potentially something you could say about that. Anyway, to the Minister: what was the reason for removing those sections?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2f6294fe9f64f5bb530fc009bb898f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2f6294fe9f64f5bb530fc009bb898f7\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E The amendments to section 12A and 13 are to correct a drafting error. A replacement summons is issued under section 13, not under section\u00A014C(1)(c) or (d) as currently indicated in the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 22 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f9e297a4f41b45db8f5cc408c8491b69\u0022\u003EPart 23  Amendments to Land Transfer Act 2017\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5be95356ede4ce5b45ca2828ffedf1b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5be95356ede4ce5b45ca2828ffedf1b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come to Part 23, the debate on clauses 89 to 98, \u201CAmendments to Land Transfer Act 2017\u201D. The question is that Part 23 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4d3b38234d2449c89e88bc8802b2672\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4d3b38234d2449c89e88bc8802b2672\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Here we go again with public notices, section 220, inserted by clause 93. What it does is, essentially, provide that we\u2019re\u2014because land transfer information can be a lot of data. For example, a subdivision plan, if you\u2019re subdividing a large area, not only is it just a lot of diagrams and words, but the document itself is data heavy. It\u2019s usually done on some computer design system. So what this does is enable the provision of the data on an internet site. The problem is it doesn\u2019t explicitly require the publication of the exact internet address where the information can be found.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EI would suggest that, really, rather than simply saying it\u2019s available on an internet site or our internet site\u2014so you could have a surveying company saying, \u201CFull details available on our internet site.\u201D, but that doesn\u2019t actually take you much further, you then have to go and navigate your way to it. What you really need is the actual internet address: \u201CThe full details can be found at www.\u201D, etc., etc., etc. At the moment, it doesn\u2019t actually give notice; it just says it can be made available. But this is about notice, and notice should be given of the internet site on which it is available\u2014it\u2019s essentially a guide or a navigation tool. If we don\u2019t have that, you can simply have a note: \u201CFull information available on an internet site.\u201D, and that is going to be exactly what isn\u2019t needed. Again, this gets around the problem of having these long public notices in newspapers about marginal strips and the like, that we\u2019ve just been talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EIt really is important in these situations to not just say it\u2019s available somewhere but to say exactly where it is required. If the Associate Minister of Justice is going to say, \u201CWell, obviously, you have to provide not just notice that it\u2019s available; it\u2019s made available on an internet site.\u201D\u2014but exactly where that information is. Amended section 220(2)(b)(ii) does say, \u201Cgive sufficient detail to enable the person to understand what sort of further information is available on that site.\u201D So it probably should just have a subparagraph (iii) underneath it saying, \u201Cprovide the internet address of the web page where that further information is available.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb93af250bb44cbeaae6e384c7f9bf5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb93af250bb44cbeaae6e384c7f9bf5b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. To the member the Hon Dr Duncan Webb, clause 93, amending section 220, is inserting a new subsection to allow for some information on the matter to be published on the Land Information New Zealand (LINZ) website instead of all information. So it\u2019s basically allowing LINZ to pull out what is the relevant information, because sometimes the information that they do have is so fulsome that in putting it on the site, you end up losing the relevant information. So it\u2019s basically saying that they can put in that relevant information that is needed\u2014this is a technical amendment\u2014provided that the public notice can clearly identify where to locate the additional information on the website itself. So, basically, they can come up with a part of\u2014this is the crux of whatever information they want to share, and to get the fuller information, it\u2019ll be \u201CClick this link here.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0bf77dc74ae4253869b35f5e696b441\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0bf77dc74ae4253869b35f5e696b441\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I have a question for the Minister regarding clause 90, which is inserting \u201Cregistered owner\u201D. Now, my understanding of this is that this clause pertains to the Crown not being liable for compensation should there be loss or damage resulting from a breach of trust by the claimant. I understand that the registered owner part was dropped off between the 1952 drafting and the 2017 drafting, and now it\u2019s just kind of being added back in. Can I check: what happens then if people try to make a claim for compensation to the Crown between 2017 and now? Would that mean that their claim for compensation by the Crown, by registered owners, then would stand, because it\u2019s technically not in the legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u002299bb9f68015f4f2a9806e4837972bff2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299bb9f68015f4f2a9806e4837972bff2\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E This amendment, at clause 90, amending section 61(1)(a), is a minor clarification where losses arising from a breach of trust by a registered owner are not covered by the Land Transfer Act 2017 compensation regime. That\u2019s consistent with the position under the 1952 Act and the model Act drafted by the Law Commission. Because of this omission, the extent of the Crown\u2019s liability in these circumstances could be misinterpreted if this is not made explicit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022c48a87865864498cb1a5358b90b896aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c48a87865864498cb1a5358b90b896aa\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Sorry, just one quick follow-up. That would mean that it got picked up, but there hasn\u2019t been an instance at this stage? By clarifying this particular bill, it will hopefully clarify all of that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u002202658099bbc54fe89aa4d39edc016ef0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202658099bbc54fe89aa4d39edc016ef0\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. It was inadvertently admitted, so we\u2019re just putting it in there for that clarity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 23 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f2efe582a09a4b7084df998e77fa376e\u0022\u003EPart 24  Amendment to Local Government Act 2002\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00224ed57ebb158b4ca6892be0dd8260cf06\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ed57ebb158b4ca6892be0dd8260cf06\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 24. This is the debate on clauses 99 and 100, \u201CAmendment to Local Government Act 2002\u201D. The question is that Part 24 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022 data-id=\u0022e256cbfcfdc841b9a140a5c769f50a18\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e256cbfcfdc841b9a140a5c769f50a18\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. So I\u2019ve looked at this particular change. It does relate, I believe, to the next part, which, obviously, technically we\u2019re not allowed to discuss, but the Minister may like to make a comment about this particular change. So, essentially, as far as I can see, this is in relation to the audited accounts of a local body authority. This particular new section\u00A029A, inserted by clause 100, means that the amount of rates written off needs to be included in the annual report, which details the financial statement of the local body authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EThat appears to be a new change. However, my suspicion is that it might have been just moved from a different enactment which we discussed in Part 25, so just clarifying that that\u2019s correct. It may avoid the need for some questions in Part 25.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u002257f27dd917df41ceb8a08ffa77f47895\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257f27dd917df41ceb8a08ffa77f47895\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E That\u2019s correct. For both this part and Part 25, which is the next one, it\u2019s a transfer of a section from one Act into another Act to group like provisions without changing the effect of the law, and that\u2019s for both Part 24 and Part 25. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 24 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022091c045f947a4d159911287570a46083\u0022\u003EPart 25  Amendment to Local Government (Rating) Act 2002 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022753284744377440c81e6f24aba581e57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022753284744377440c81e6f24aba581e57\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come to Part 25. This is the debate on clause\u00A0101 and 102, \u201CAmendment to Local Government (Rating) Act 2002\u201D. The question is that Part\u00A025 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EPart 25 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228c24ec7c85fc4968a6a86a2859022aba\u0022\u003EPart 26  Amendment to Maritime Transport Act 1994\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022e25c40080ac54820882381481da69255\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e25c40080ac54820882381481da69255\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 26. This is the debate on clauses 103 and 104, \u201CAmendment to Maritime Transport Act 1994\u201D. The question is that Part 26 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u00220e3a1a5ac15f4e4cacd7d9f248e4103d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e3a1a5ac15f4e4cacd7d9f248e4103d\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Mr Chair. This is about maritime insurance, which is a matter close to my heart. I can see what\u2019s going on here, but it strikes me there\u2019s a bit of a slip, and so I want to draw it to the Minister\u2019s attention. Under section 363, ships have to have certificates of insurance\u2014that\u2019s all good\u2014and the Director of Maritime New Zealand can demand, through their agents, to see those certificates of insurance. All well and good so far. Then, in 2014, there was a new section inserted, which was section 363A, \u201CCertain ships to have bunker oil certificates of insurance\u201D. This is ships which have fuel tanks of a certain size\u2014I think that\u2019s the case\u20141,000 gross tonnage or more, and because that bunk oil is actually an environmental hazard, they need to be properly insured.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EThen section 364 was about regulated offshore installations that had to have certificates of insurance. I think they were like oil wells. Now, this provision that we\u2019ve got in front of us\u2014wherever it is\u2014deletes section 364. It says, in respect here\u2014I\u2019m just trying to find it. [Camilla Belich hands a copy of the bill to the Hon Dr Duncan Webb] Here it is, thanks. Sorry. It says, \u201Cdelete \u2018or section 364\u2019 \u201D, which is the right thing to do. But the problem is this: that was done in 2013, and, in fact, section\u00A0363A was added in 2014, so you\u2019re getting rid of a redundant section, but you\u2019re not enabling the new section, section 363A. No longer does the Chief Executive, or the Director, of Maritime New Zealand have the ability to see certificates of insurance in respect of bunker oil.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s actually quite a gap, because that\u2019s as important as certificates of insurance for other vessels as well, and, arguably, more important, because there\u2019s no greater environmental hazard than bunker oil in ships. So I\u2019m wondering whether that\u2019s a bit of a slip. In fact, if you were going to catch all the slips\u2014yes, you get rid of the redundant reference to section 364, but, in fact, you should have included section 363A as a new reference in that clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022d51fd52c89d64f0ebb568d5df3e268d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d51fd52c89d64f0ebb568d5df3e268d4\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E The only slip that I see is where a member with a law degree says that he doesn\u2019t understand why we are removing a section that has already been repealed, because this is a technical amendment that is referring to removing something that\u2019s actually not there. It\u2019s as simple as that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 26 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ed99fb3b9fbd4b19bf7fe3f8e44198c2\u0022\u003EPart 27  Amendments to Motor Vehicle Sales Act 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00228d121d1d48c3472e9fd68a82516de236\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d121d1d48c3472e9fd68a82516de236\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 27, the debate on clauses\u00A0105 to 108: \u201CAmendments to Motor Vehicle Sales Act 2003\u201D. The question is that Part 27 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022742f1cbf34474b6ea0d39c203342689e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022742f1cbf34474b6ea0d39c203342689e\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I have a starting question on this regarding clause 107, inserting new section 88A. Now, my understanding in terms of the \u201CContinuation of approval of assessors\u201D is it\u2019s to bring the end of term in line with that of adjudicators. But just checking, in terms of the principal Act, the appointment process, as far as I can see, between adjudicators and assessors is a little bit different. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI just want to check with the Minister that if the appointment process is different, what\u2019s the rationale behind lining up the end of term process? For example, as far as I can see, the Minister appoints the assessor, but it\u2019s the Governor-General, on advice from the Minister of Transport and the Minister of Justice, who appoints the adjudicator. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022eccadd86f5804e0bb1789d75027dccf7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eccadd86f5804e0bb1789d75027dccf7\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I have not made any amendments to clause 107. Amendments have been made to clauses 106 and 108. Can the member just clarify for me, please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022bed51c6bcf1c4e1a93bd5c3e00eee14a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bed51c6bcf1c4e1a93bd5c3e00eee14a\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E This is clause 107, inserting new section 88A. I\u2019ll just double check\u2014this is the copy I\u2019ve got from today. Yeah, so clause 107, inserting new section 88A, \u201CContinuation of approval of assessors\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u00228e0ce1da7c954f52bd8a82882140bceb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e0ce1da7c954f52bd8a82882140bceb\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I have it down as clause\u00A0106\u2014but we\u2019re there. I\u2019m looking at clause 107, inserting section 88A. What I\u2019ll say is this amendment is to include the standard end of term provisions for assessors. The Tribunals Powers and Procedures Legislation Act 2018 introduced standard end of term provisions for members of tribunals administered by the Ministry of Justice. But the assessor position was actually overlooked. The amendment just corrects that omission. I hope that answers the member\u2019s question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 27 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002288e153c597004d8a8d91ed93e9bb08de\u0022\u003EPart 28  Amendments to New Zealand Geographic Board (Ng\u0101 Pou Taunaha o Aotearoa) Act 2008\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea2ced45a8ae41b28658a23caef7d9e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea2ced45a8ae41b28658a23caef7d9e8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 28. This is debate on clauses 109 to 118, \u201CAmendments to New Zealand Geographic Board (Ng\u0101 Pou Taunaha o Aotearoa) Act 2008.\u201D The question is that Part 28 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EPart 28 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cd70fe5ca5114ee69ea78e90628b9b06\u0022\u003EPart 29  Amendment to Ng\u0101ti Rangi Claims Settlement Act 2019\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8320856a51949db9e499da8a30e8581\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8320856a51949db9e499da8a30e8581\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 29. This is the debate on clauses 119 and 120, \u201CAmendment to Ng\u0101ti Rangi Claims Settlement Act 2019\u201D. The question is that Part 29 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u00224c4edafc0d7c4a76bbd5470588d5e78f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c4edafc0d7c4a76bbd5470588d5e78f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I just thought it would be useful\u2014again, because it\u2019s a claims settlement Act\u2014for the Minister to speak briefly to this. It\u2019s the Ng\u0101ti Rangi Claims Settlement Act 2019, and I can kind of see\u2014and I did have a look at the Act itself\u2014that as part of the settlement, I think what the original Act said was if a contract is reached or an agreement is reached within four years, then the land is transferred to trustees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EI guess there are two\u2014firstly, it\u2019d be nice to have an assurance that the iwi are all on board with this; I\u2019m sure they are, but it\u2019d be nice to hear it from the Minister. Also, the other question is: has that four years expired already, or are we still within that four-year period and just extending it by another three?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022003d9d3f45084f04aee332a2d5b95b99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022003d9d3f45084f04aee332a2d5b95b99\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I assure the member that I have been informed that we have received from Ng\u0101ti Rangi, in writing, their agreement to make these changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EThe redress provides Ng\u0101ti Rangi and the New Zealand Defence Force with a period of four years to enter the binding agreement for the transfer of Defence land at Waiouru for the purposes of commercial housing arrangements. The four years is a statutory deadline, as the legislation provides the necessary provision for the New Zealand Defence Force to be able to transfer the land to Ng\u0101ti Rangi if the opportunity comes to fruition. Accordingly, it needs a statutory amendment to change that time frame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EWhy were seven years chosen as being appropriate: this is the time frame that the parties asked for both New Zealand Defence Force and Ng\u0101ti Rangi. They agreed to the seven-year time frame and they\u2019re both jointly confident that this will be sufficient enough to get the job done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 29 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002259516c7f912f43d4936d76def0afe2a9\u0022\u003EPart 30  Amendments to Oaths and Declarations Act 1957\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00227adb76745bca44f8b83f8f8cdfd1f536\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227adb76745bca44f8b83f8f8cdfd1f536\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 30. This is the debate on clauses 121 to 123; amendments to the Oaths and Declarations Act 1957. The question is that Part 30 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f41afbd3704a77be3e16ea18a99f20\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb0b015712594700a7fb8fa6c720e888\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f41afbd3704a77be3e16ea18a99f20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb0b015712594700a7fb8fa6c720e888\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. As a member of the Governance and Administration Committee, I have seen much of this, but a question has occurred to me about how we\u2019re going to manage the change. During the pandemic times, it was OK to have the audio, and I think it\u2019s correct to ensure that oaths and affirmations have the audiovisual. But it occurred to me that sometimes submitters to select committees are intending to do the video and we also have the audio as well, but, when the line is bad, they\u2019re not able to actually use both, and they often turn off the video so that we can actually hear them properly. I just wondered, and, presumably there\u2019s no intention to make exceptions, but they would just have to find a better connection somewhere else. I\u2019d like the Minister\u2019s clarification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u002282defafaae8f43a1b6aa258653a489f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282defafaae8f43a1b6aa258653a489f7\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member Celia Wade-Brown for her work on the Governance and Administration Committee. There were some very good changes that were made to the Statutes Amendment Bill with cross-party help and support, so I thank the member for being on that committee. Yes, it\u2019s really critical that we can modernise the way that people are heard, but when it comes to oaths and declarations, if we only have the audio\u2014and this is what the select committee picked up\u2014you may not actually be dealing with the right person. Having the declaration made where you can see the person and hear the person is what this change is all about\u2014enabling that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to bad connections, what we\u2019re trying to do within the justice system at the moment is slowly upgrade\u2014well, not slowly; I\u2019m trying to do it quickly\u2014the audiovisual connections within courts, for example. Other Government agencies will be looking to do similar. Just for the oaths and declarations, I think the committee made a very good point of saying, when you\u2019re trying to verify who a person is, you need to be able to see them as well. That\u2019s why it\u2019s important that that change that the select committee made has only been made to the oaths and declarations and not to the overall presentation of, say, evidence that may be required, especially where there is mixed connectivity occurring. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022 data-id=\u002211b376a7932447e8b5d72b56a39c9e6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211b376a7932447e8b5d72b56a39c9e6c\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. This was, as the Minister has said, one of the substantive changes that was made at select committee, and our thanks go to the Minister for also agreeing with this change. I think that it does make this a wee bit stronger. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EWhen we were originally analysing this particular change, we did have some concerns that it would lead to a situation where there could be more coercion. I was reminded of my early days practising law, when, as the most junior person in the office, I was always set out to do the oaths and declarations, and all of the other evidence and affidavits\u2014and I can see that other lawyers in the House are looking, with knowing eyes, at me. It\u2019s not the \u201Cfunnest\u201D job in the world, but it is a very important job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EOne of the key aspects of it is ensuring that you don\u2019t just go through the motions of an oath or a declaration but that you actually ensure that the person who is taking the oath or declaration understands what they\u2019re doing and is undertaking that oath without coercion and actually has capacity\u2014I don\u2019t want to spend too much time going over this, because I think we\u2019re all in agreement\u2014to make that declaration. There are special roles under the Oaths and Declarations Act, which outlines who can undertake that particular type of work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EObviously, technology means that things have moved on, but I\u2019m proud that the committee agreed to make this particular change, and that the Minister also agrees, because I do think it upholds the integrity of oaths and declarations. They should never be something that can be done entirely online, and I don\u2019t think this an area where we can think of AI making a substantial contribution. There are some legal tasks, and our society is really built on the ability to verify people\u2019s ability to undertake an oath or declaration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EAlthough it can sometimes be quite a boring job to take these oaths and declarations, it is really important, and I think this has made it stronger. I wouldn\u2019t like to see this further watered-down, and I think, probably, with the original proposal, it was too much of a substantive change. I don\u2019t think we did get submissions from the New Zealand Law Society on this, but I hope, if they\u2019re watching tonight\u2014undoubtedly they are, as committed legal eagles\u2014that they do agree with how this has been changed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t really have too many more questions for the Minister, but I just wanted to acknowledge that that change was made. I think this upholds the integrity of the Oaths and Declarations Act\u2014I hope so\u2014and I hope we don\u2019t have to make further changes to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef8f864c783b49b9b33c1db2aa61d47c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef8f864c783b49b9b33c1db2aa61d47c\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member Camilla Belich for her contribution there, and I totally agree. For the person who takes the oath and declaration, it is important to be able to see the demeanour of a person who takes a declaration, and not just to hear their voice but also to look at whether their eyes are moving sideways. This is why I think it was so important, the change that the select committee made. It actually strengthens that proposal, and, again, I just commend the committee for the work that they did there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 30 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e00f1584af01425280781f2835c990ed\u0022\u003EPart 31  Amendments to Privacy Act 2020\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022224f62df09024d3884f89fb70afe81b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022224f62df09024d3884f89fb70afe81b7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 31, the debate on clauses\u00A0124 to 134: \u201CAmendments to Privacy Act 2020\u201D. The question is that Part 31 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6973483cc054ba5a7f0ad00e01a10de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6973483cc054ba5a7f0ad00e01a10de\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to start by just checking with the Associate Minister of Justice on clause 126, which amends section 27. Essentially, it\u2019s saying that information privacy principals 5 to 12 aren\u2019t applicable to an individual who is holding information for the purpose of that individual\u2019s personal or domestic affairs. Recognising that for those particular principles, a lot of the time it does refer to when an agency holds personal information, but from a different perspective, how would that work when that person is holding personal information for individual use or domestic affairs? It\u2019s like placing their personal\u2014well, not so much personal information, but I guess their personal information, on a social media platform. How would that work in terms of them retaining the privacy of that information? In the age of social media, sometimes one could argue that you\u2019re putting stuff on there for personal use, but some will argue that while that\u2019s why you\u2019ve put it on there, it\u2019s now available publicly. So I just wanted to check in terms of the breadth of individuals\u2019 personal or domestic affairs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u00220cd057d71663410f919c30fb443d682f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220cd057d71663410f919c30fb443d682f\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. The proposal in clause\u00A0126, which is amending section 27(b)(ii), is really just to correct an omission. This personal information was never intended to be within the scope of a complaint to the Privacy Commissioner or proceedings in the Human Rights Review Tribunal. This proposal restores the policy position in the Privacy Act 1993 that was intended to be retained in the Privacy Act 2020.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022d07f3bfd0e724557bac484c0b68ee40a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d07f3bfd0e724557bac484c0b68ee40a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m sure my friend Rachel Brooking will have something insightful to say shortly. I just want to talk about both clause\u00A0131 and clause 132 because these relate to the Privacy Act. Clause 131 relates to the procedure after completion of an investigation relating to access to personal information, and then clause 132 relates to the procedure after completion of other investigations. The Privacy Commissioner has looked into something, and the question is, well, what do you do next? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EOne of the things the commissioner must do under the current framing is to seek for the parties to resolve the issue by settlement, mediation, or whatever, if the investigation shows the complaint has substance. So that\u2019s a mandatory direction. What these two amendments do in clauses 131 and 132 is insert \u201Cand [the commissioner] considers it appropriate to do so\u201D. So no longer is it that if the complaint has substance, you must seek to resolve the issue; it\u2019s that if the complaint has substance, you can, if you want, seek to resolve the issue, and that\u2019s a significant watering-down of the rights of people who are the subject of privacy breaches and other investigations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EI\u2019m a little concerned because these provisions relate to steps that the commissioner is required to take if the complaint is found to have substance. In particular, under the current section 91, they\u2019re required to seek settlement of the complaint, or seek an assurance that the breach will not reoccur\u2014that\u2019s subsection (4). This amendment would make that subject to the discretion of a commissioner. The question is whether it\u2019s appropriate once it\u2019s been established that the complaint has substance that such a discretion exists, and that\u2019s the same in the respect of situations where there\u2019s another investigation in respect of some other matter, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u00221550d466709e4cd69f62a233640c9757\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221550d466709e4cd69f62a233640c9757\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. To the member, I say that this particular change will give the Privacy Commissioner the discretion to use best endeavours to settle or seek assurance across all complaints he receives, providing consistency across the Act, and the commissioner is not required to seek settlement or assurance where the conduct of the parties to a complaint would render this effort futile or a waste of resources. Sections 77(1) and 83(2) already give the Privacy Commissioner the discretion to decide whether to use best endeavours to secure a settlement or assurance while he is investigating a complaint.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022 data-id=\u0022a27636a057254ef1b6d907a89dd15f48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a27636a057254ef1b6d907a89dd15f48\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, for allowing me to make a contribution in this committee stage. I want to note that the Minister is answering all the questions, and thank you for doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003EAn earlier question from my colleague from the Greens was about clause 126, and the Minister\u2019s answer referenced 132(a). I note that the select committee report also references 132(a), and I would like the Minister to tell me if I\u2019m right or wrong: that this seems to be one of the more substantive parts of these changes to the Privacy Act, and it is to enable that six-month period to be widened to include any related\u2014if there is more than one matter going on, then the six months goes from the end of the final matter. So that seems to be a good change to be making. So, one, if I\u2019m right if that\u2019s the major policy change here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003ETwo, if she could explain how that relates to the changes at clause 125 and also clause 126. So if we go back to clause 126 which we talked about earlier, the wording is changed around from the principal Act and it\u2019s now about whether or not \u201C(ii) received by the individual unsolicited; or (iii) created by the individual.\u201D If those changes relate to the changes at clause 132.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003EFurther to that, going up to clause 125. This is the replacement of subclause (1)(e) and some of it is very similar. So you \u201Cbelieve on reasonable grounds that B is subject to privacy laws of a prescribed country\u2026\u201D, but the bit that is new is this: \u201Cand the disclosure is not precluded by any limitation or qualification prescribed in respect of that country under section 214(3);\u201D, and 214(3) doesn\u2019t change. That relates to \u201CA country may be prescribed\u2026\u201D based on the type of foreign person or the type of personnel. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003EI was just wondering if the Minister can tell me if these changes relate back to clause 132(a) or if they\u2019re totally different and it\u2019s a different sort of tidy up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022b629035084004eb4932ad7d59577933e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b629035084004eb4932ad7d59577933e\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. The member may not have been in here when I just answered the question more recently on clause 126, so I\u2019ll just abbreviate and answer again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022939d53abdfd34852b8b7027595c9cf6b\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: No, I was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8fb1083a0db4676a91d9796a04e15db\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: OK. So what these are are just small, minor technical amendments on clauses that affect\u2014there\u2019s no rolling effect of one will affect another unless there is a change that specifically makes an effect on a different clause, if that makes sense. So with clause 125 for example, that amendment clarifies that information can only be disclosed when consistent with section 214 of the principal Act. The Act requires that information shared with prescribed overseas countries\u2014countries with broadly similar privacy protections to New Zealand\u2014are subject to any limitations imposed when the country is prescribed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EHowever, the wording of IPP 12(1)(e) does not mention this and creates uncertainty. That\u2019s why we\u2019re making the changes to clause 125, because of that uncertainty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EAnd then, of course, clause 126 was correcting an omission and the proposal restores the policy position in the Privacy Act 1993 that was intended to be retained in the Privacy Act 2020.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EAnd then clauses 131 and 132 is giving the Privacy Commissioner some discretion as to the best endeavours to settle or seek assurance for that settlement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003ESo the only time that you\u2019ll see the rolling effect is when we make one change that actually influences or has a minor or non-technical amendment to something else. But really these are all just tidy-ups\u2014individual tidy-ups.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022 data-id=\u002277f8be9e242f4a168cdd3f3593991f70\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277f8be9e242f4a168cdd3f3593991f70\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Just further to that\u2014thank you, Minister. I was in the Chamber for that discussion of clause 126 and I might have misheard the Minister. So the point is that 132(a) is the most important change and then everything else is some unassociated other tidy-up, or it could relate to 132(a). I think I just heard the Minister say that those changes to clause\u00A0125 and clause 126 not related to the change at 132(a) and they are their own separate tidy-ups, is that correct?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u00227df2495a98fd4163bc8bc7933beea7c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227df2495a98fd4163bc8bc7933beea7c8\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Correct. Clause 125 is a clarification, clause 126 is correcting an omission, and clause 131 and 132 is giving the Privacy Commissioner discretion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 31 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022226c6aa6686e4db98285caa424f0d5d9\u0022\u003EPart 32  Amendments to Public Service Act 2020\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022bcf7dd29549f408da92f2cba1c9539ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bcf7dd29549f408da92f2cba1c9539ae\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 32, the debate on clauses 135 to 139, \u201CAmendments to Public Service Act 2020\u201D. The question is that Part 32 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022 data-id=\u0022606cfb354c17498ea8806bc82449e35b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022606cfb354c17498ea8806bc82449e35b\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Another one of my favourite Acts to look at, the Public Service Act. I looked at some of these changes in detail, and I\u2019ve kind of satisfied myself in relation to some of the questions I had around clause 139; I think I understand that. I\u2019ve looked and there is a definition of an interdepartmental venture. There are boards; it was actually quite interesting seeing the different interdepartmental venture boards that are outlined in the Public Service Act, so I won\u2019t ask the Minister about that. But I did want to ask about clause 137(2). This is a change to Schedule 3 of the Act, specifically a change to clause 16(1). Now, it\u2019s, maybe, a slightly minor point, but essentially, as it currently stands, the commissioner is required to give the Minister a briefing every three years. Now, this bill changes that to \u201Cin every 3-year period after 7 August 2020\u201D. which seems a bit unusual.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EAdditionally, it won\u2019t be news to anyone in this House, although, it is still Tuesday, which means we have suspended time in some manner, that we, in fact, have missed a three-year period after 7\u00A0August 2020\u2014in fact, two three-year periods now. The question I have is: why make this change where it appears to give retrospective duties in the past to the piece of legislation\u2014and I might be misunderstanding this, and the Minister may want to clarify\u2014which are unable to be met by the commissioner due to the fact that 7\u00A0August 2020 is now over six years ago?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u00220566723b383446a194352de8d0d2d13f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220566723b383446a194352de8d0d2d13f\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for her question. I\u2019m advised that this change\u2014replacing \u201Cevery 3 years\u201D with \u201Cin every 3-year period\u201D, following the commencement of this section\u2014will clarify the time frames for agencies to deliver their long-term insights briefings. So it\u2019s clarifying the preferred interpretation of the clause, and I understand it will not affect time frames to deliver the first briefings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u00224a7bdf9e5717451ea42e86fc74b3917e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a7bdf9e5717451ea42e86fc74b3917e\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I have such a minute and pedantic question. I hope the Minister is able to prove me wrong in terms of my interpretation. I just want to check\u2014\u201Cafter 7 August 2020\u201D, for me, implies after that, which means 8 August 2020. The Royal assent for this bill is the 6 August 2020. Does that mean 7 August gets skipped altogether? I think that one day, at this stage, is now inconsequential, but I would just like to check my interpretation by the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u002244dad2ba412345e887d124f3c5f9303e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244dad2ba412345e887d124f3c5f9303e\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I don\u2019t believe that there\u2019s an issue there. That\u2019s not been pointed out to me at all. In fact, I\u2019ve been told that it will not affect time frames to deliver first briefings. I think the key words here might be the commencement of this section. I am understanding that there will be no effect to the time frames.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022 data-id=\u002209ca429066554b48aea118dff9f0945c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209ca429066554b48aea118dff9f0945c\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Just a follow-up. Thank you to the Associate Minister of Justice again. I echo the comments of my colleague Rachel Brooking, we\u2019re very grateful for the Minister engaging with us in good faith when answering these questions. The answer in relation to the long-term insights briefings, those are currently due to be repealed, in the sense that there will be a requirement to have, as I understand, one long-term insights briefing done by the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet now, and the rest of the\u2014I always forget the exact number, but it\u2019s over 20; maybe somewhere between 20 and 34\u2014long-term insights briefings that are required to be done will be abolished by the Public Service Amendment Act that the Government is currently putting through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EI know that the policy question is not for the Minister to ask in that debate; that\u2019s for the Minister for Public Service. But just maybe if the officials could clarify that because there is substantive change happening to long-term insights briefings under a bill that is currently due to be reported back to the House from select committee shortly: will these changes still be drafted in the way that will make them longstanding? We don\u2019t want to see, of course, these come back in another Statutes Amendment Bill straight away; we would like to make sure that they were able to at least survive the passage of the changes to the long-term insights briefing. So not really a policy question, but a technical question: due to that change, are these provisions still fit for purpose? I appreciate that this bill went through the select committee prior to that bill. So that\u2019s really why I\u2019m asking that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce453d117afe4657ac00e1de5d32491d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce453d117afe4657ac00e1de5d32491d\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Yeah, it\u2019s a good question to ask, but we\u2019re dealing with the bill that we have here. While there\u2019s another bill that might be under way, it hasn\u2019t gone through the process of the House. We are dealing with an issue that we found that has, of course, got cross-party support, so we will fix this here and, should there be any other changes in any other legislation, we would all hope that the transitional provisions would pick up any changes that would need to be made in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 32 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022aaa8e4752f964e07b838fe31e4da8cdf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aaa8e4752f964e07b838fe31e4da8cdf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: For those on the edge of their seat in anticipation, there are 10 more parts left to go of this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022edea2a54b45e45519351ddbac7a0c1f9\u0022\u003EPart 34  Amendments to Radiocommunications Act 1989\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u002283bf549ef740467aab0025b46ca54558\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283bf549ef740467aab0025b46ca54558\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: We are up to Part 34. This is the debate on clauses 143 to 147; amendments to the Radiocommunications Act 1989. The question is that Part 34 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u00221ced94bc24bc42fb83cfc5b4d927f2cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ced94bc24bc42fb83cfc5b4d927f2cc\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just want to really thank the Minister for that previous response. The Minister is absolutely right; the commencement date is the day after the Royal assent, so everything does line up, which is a huge reassurance. Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got two questions for Part 34. The first one is to do with clause 147 subclause (1). It\u2019s actually very helpful that we\u2019re now allowing for an electronic address of the person in cases when they are not there. But I guess while that closes one loophole, I\u2019m still curious to know what happens if we don\u2019t have any of those when we\u2019re issuing an infringement notice: neither electronic nor physical means. Are there any other mechanisms that it could be using?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EMy second question is for subclause (2), \u201CReplace section 128B(3)\u201D, and I\u2019m specifically looking at subclause (3)(b). I\u2019m specifically looking at this clause, and I wanted to ask the Minister to help interpret it, which is, what does \u201Cfirst enters an information system that is outside the control of the Secretary or the authorised person.\u201D, mean? Does it mean the moment that the secretary or the authorised person presses send and that is no longer in their control? Or the moment that the person who is being served receives that in their inbox, so to speak?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022f20edd7a57bc4d5ab5128830f4094686\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f20edd7a57bc4d5ab5128830f4094686\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Sorry to the member, I just missed the beginning of the second part of that question, but I can answer the first part and invite the member to try again for the second.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EThe first part is making an amendment to include that an infringement may be sent to a person\u2019s electronic address. The member said, \u201CWell, what if they don\u2019t have an electronic address?\u201D Well, there are other means, which is by sending it by mail. There could get to a point if they do not collect it that they end up having bailiffs serving upon them, so there are always other ways. This is modernising the Act; recognising that there are faster, more efficient ways to serve people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EI\u2019m sorry, I missed the member\u2019s second question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022f46a9ad8b48244ccbf1518e1ca5130ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f46a9ad8b48244ccbf1518e1ca5130ae\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E No, you\u2019re all good, Minister. My second question: in section 128B(3)(b) there\u2019s a line that says, \u201Cis to be treated as having been served at the time the electronic communication first enters an information system that is outside the control of the Secretary\u201D. I want to check what is the \u201Cmoment\u201D? Is it the moment when, for example, the secretary or the authorised person presses send, or the moment when the person served receives it in their inbox?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022c84f1b45228040a690cf63588dc56645\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c84f1b45228040a690cf63588dc56645\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, and thanks for your patience in repeating the question a second time. I am going to make a presumption that it is when the person presses send. My reasoning for that is because you will not be able to know when an email has been received, so my thoughts are it would have to be on the send.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f41afbd3704a77be3e16ea18a99f20\u0022 data-id=\u00223a0e9153aa9345e8b45ef245833926c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f41afbd3704a77be3e16ea18a99f20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a0e9153aa9345e8b45ef245833926c2\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I think my first question has probably been answered, because it\u2019s when it enters the information system, but we all know of cases where mailboxes are full and it never quite gets delivered. But I suppose you\u2019re saying that the sending is what is important, and if somebody\u2019s mailbox is full, then perhaps you would say that that is their problem, not the sender\u2019s problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f41afbd3704a77be3e16ea18a99f20\u0022\u003EIf you could hold your thought on that for a moment, I have a different question, which is on clause 147(3)(a), and it\u2019s about when it would have been delivered in the ordinary course of post. With the relatively recent changes to the post, rural delivery is received five days a week, but you\u2019re terribly deprived\u2014for once\u2014in towns and cities, with it arriving only three times. So I just wonder whether there is an unintended consequence, where there is a difference between people who are living rurally and people who are living in towns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u00222248264ed3e946c1a0a1a7733fc44b8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222248264ed3e946c1a0a1a7733fc44b8e\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to the member for that question, and they\u2019re really good points that have been made. I think it would maybe even require a member\u2019s bill to be thought of, because the issue that is raised is probably more than a minor and small technical issue that needs to be raised. I think that the effect of the postal service would have implications over many Acts as well, so I understand the reasoning for that member\u2019s question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EI\u2019m just going to go back to the first comment that the member made about the sending, and what if a mailbox is full. As a person who has had a full mailbox just recently, I have been contacted by people to say, \u201CI\u2019m getting replies that your mailbox is full.\u201D, and I think that there is the ability for that notification to go back to the sender. What happens then, I\u2019m not sure; I\u2019m looking at the smaller amendments that allow the person to send it electronically in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 34 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022eea31296108e4841897d9534b553d0e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eea31296108e4841897d9534b553d0e4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve just been corrected. Part 33 was actually removed at the select committee, so there are now only eight parts left. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225cc8eac8b54045fd8554a04cbc987423\u0022\u003EPart 35  Amendments to Real Estate Agents Act 2008\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb472b4cc14e4d3d84b7ff1364eb2469\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb472b4cc14e4d3d84b7ff1364eb2469\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Part 35. This is the debate on clauses 148 to 150, \u201CAmendments to Real Estate Agents Act 2008\u201D. The question is that Part 35 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022752ca636950f4706bed0112727be8350\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022752ca636950f4706bed0112727be8350\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m just curious here because this is another occupational regulation Act. We\u2019ve seen the Immigration Advisers Licensing Act already, and section 74 deals with when the complaints framework need not proceed, so you can, basically, kick out a complaint. Some of the traditional ones are that it\u2019s frivolous or the vexatious, but the language has somewhat changed, and I\u2019m just curious as to why this change is necessary. At the moment, there\u2019s already a power to refuse to consider a complaint under section\u00A074(3)(a) if the complaint is inconsequential or concerns\u2014I forget the exact word, but \u201Cinconsequential\u201D is the core concept\u2014and all of a sudden, we\u2019ve got a change coming to the House to change it to \u201Cis not sufficiently serious\u201D to warrant further action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EI\u2019m kind of perplexed as to why someone\u2014and, presumably, it\u2019s the Minister of Justice; this is one of your tribunals, I think, Minister\u2014in the Ministry of Justice tribunals unit has said, \u201C\u00A0\u2018Inconsequential\u2019 doesn\u2019t work for us any more. We want something that\u2019s not sufficiently serious.\u201D, and they would seem to be two sides to the same coin. So I\u2019m just curious to know why it was considered consequential to get rid \u201Cinconsequential\u2019 and to now use \u201Cnot sufficiently serious\u201D, and whether that issue was serious enough to warrant putting \u201Cnot sufficiently serious\u201D in there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9fed1d50fb84b518e1d303a1a8b4057\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9fed1d50fb84b518e1d303a1a8b4057\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I like the member\u2019s humour. This change is ensuring that the language reflects the intended lower threshold contemplated for the provision, without diminishing the impact that the circumstances surrounding the compliant may have on the complainant. The current language is seen as being inflammatory to complainants and it is detrimental to the authority\u2019s relationships with consumers and stakeholders, and so they asked for a change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 35 agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220ffabab38eee4c14bef6c78233fe45d3\u0022\u003EPart 36  Amendment to Search and Surveillance Act 2012\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u002267a19c34efe545cf80dfa82ada217153\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267a19c34efe545cf80dfa82ada217153\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come to Part 36, the debate on clauses 151 and 152, \u201CAmendment to Search and Surveillance Act 2012\u201D. The question is that Part 36 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u00229fe60ab3034f406da0ea7e686b86dbbd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fe60ab3034f406da0ea7e686b86dbbd\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I did have a read of the Search and Surveillance Act, and this just looks like a clear drafting error; because there\u2019s not going to be many situations where someone who has had their house searched and a weapon seized is then asked, \u201CCan we destroy your weapon?\u201D, and they consent and say, \u201CGo for it.\u201D I get that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EMy question is this: have we been destroying weapons that have been seized without the consent of a person from whom they were seized, in breach of the section to date; or have we been, kind of, recognising parliamentary intent rather than parliamentary words and destroying weapons, in breach of the section?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u00220eebe3e6290e424f95e78af76ccb6995\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220eebe3e6290e424f95e78af76ccb6995\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I think that question is for the Minister that handles the Search and Surveillance Act. I\u2019m here to talk about the Statutes Amendment Bill, and replacing \u201Cdoes not within 30 days consent\u201D with \u201Cdoes not within 30 days object\u201D is merely what we\u2019re doing here. The process of whether or not firearms or weapons are destroyed actually belongs to the Minister of Police, to answer that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 36 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d3896595c3b14bd49c5865d2b493462c\u0022\u003EPart 37  Amendments to Secondhand Dealers and Pawnbrokers Act 2004\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00224ae6bf1ce4504beb96801c5ab384a3ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ae6bf1ce4504beb96801c5ab384a3ad\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 37, the debate on clauses\u00A0153 to 160, \u201CAmendments to Secondhand Dealers and Pawnbrokers Act 2004\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022 data-id=\u0022629e537089054f468b4cc36ecd74871c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022629e537089054f468b4cc36ecd74871c\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Another Act which has quite the quaint title and harks back to maybe a different time\u2014although, I\u2019m sure these days with the focus on reusing, and I\u2019m here with my colleague Rachel Brooking, who is very much focused on that, but this is very much something that should be kept up to date and modernised in order that we can have effective secondhand dealers in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EI have one question in relation to this particular change, and that is: I\u2019ve looked at section 77A of the original Act, which is not mentioned here apart from to say that 77AA is inserted underneath it by clause 156 of the bill\u2014and the question I have is: in reading those two provisions together, they seem, on the face of it, to be a little bit contradictory, and I\u2019ll tell you why I think that, and I\u2019d be interested in the Minister\u2019s thoughts or her officials\u2019 advice. You may not have this in front of you, so I\u2019ll let you know what section 77A says, and then everyone can read section 77A, inserted by clause 156 of the bill. Essentially, section 77A(1) states that \u201CAll Licensing Authorities acting together may issue practice notes, to apply to all of them, as they think fit.\u201D So that\u2019s quite a wide power that is given in 77A. If I\u2019m reading this correctly, 77A stands\u2014and this would be the normal drafting, that we would have 77AA after that; that provision then says a more prescriptive requirement that \u201CAll Licensing Authorities acting together must set requirements as to the manner in which photographs [are] required to accompany applications under sections 8\u201D, etc.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EMy question, really, is: do those two sections fit together? Because 77A seems to be slightly wider and less prescriptive than 77AA. So I don\u2019t know how well these licensing authorities in relation to secondhand authentication of photographs get on, but perhaps if there was a disagreement that one group may rely on 77A, and one may rely on 77AA. It appears to me inconsistent, but I\u2019m sure that there is a reasonable explanation as to why this drafting is more robust than I initially thought it appeared.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4632bd596ab4e14a462ad3bc7753e88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4632bd596ab4e14a462ad3bc7753e88\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. The proposed amendment being made here would facilitate the introduction of electronic filing in the future by enabling the licensing authority to set authentication requirements for photographs that can be complied with electronically\u2014so modernising it, setting up for a future file of these photographs, and allowing them the ability to prescribe what that would look like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 37 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d826c3181d1243f98a07701b3669e848\u0022\u003EPart 38  Amendments to Serious Fraud Office Act 1990\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8817011800a43659b25a1b0f07ee8ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8817011800a43659b25a1b0f07ee8ac\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 38. This is the debate on clauses 161 to 163: \u201CAmendments to Serious Fraud Office Act 1990\u201D. The question is that Part 38 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EPart 38 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002297227856ca184df4bc41ae110bce7a1c\u0022\u003EPart 39  Amendment to Taxation Review Authorities Act 1994\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00226abf0393a4b2431695dac33f6839691f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226abf0393a4b2431695dac33f6839691f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 39. This is the debate on clauses 164 and 165, \u201CAmendment to Taxation Review Authorities Act 1994\u201D. The question is that Part 39 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EPart 39 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ad2d87c9aef0450cb5ff0960d0f4e7d1\u0022\u003EPart 40  Amendment to Wages Protection Act 1983\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u002290736cd9ebc24e90b4654a3968a5d55c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290736cd9ebc24e90b4654a3968a5d55c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 40. This is the debate on clauses 166 and 167, \u201CAmendment to Wages Protection Act 1983\u201D. The question is that Part 40 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022 data-id=\u0022eeb0d5efd4f64d8994ba260906ab77eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eeb0d5efd4f64d8994ba260906ab77eb\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. This is another piece of legislation that I feel affection for, the Wages Protection Act 1983\u2014a particularly good year, I might add, and also the year of the Wages Protection Act 1983. It\u2019s a very important piece of legislation that essentially means that wages for workers are not able to have deductions made from them in an unreasonable way. That goes back, really, to the foundation of the trade union movement, which was set up to allow workers to work together against employers who would essentially make regular deductions from their wages for things like accommodation and food and transport. Many workers, before they had any protections, would find themselves in a state of servitude, which, of course, is very objectionable. They would be working but never making any money, because all of the deductions from their salary would go towards funding other things that their employer would say were required. Of course, that was addressed before 1983, but the Wages Protection Act carries on a very noble aim of making sure that wages are in fact protected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EOne of the key tenets, as I understand it, in this legislation is that all deductions must be not only consulted on but consented to prior to a deduction being made. Many of these things that we do consent to in our wages that are permissible deductions are things like\u2014well, maybe KiwiSaver\u2019s not a good example, because it\u2019s opt-out. You do have to consent to things like\u2014for example, if you\u2019re in a staff social club, it would be contrary to the Wages Protection Act for your employer or, say, the president of the social club to deduct that from your wages without your permission. That is really the fundamental purpose, as I understand it, of the Wages Protection Act. There are many other important parts\u2014but, of course, I\u2019m not sure that going through the history of that would make a good question for the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EMy question is\u2014this is a very important piece of legislation. The section that this bill is amending appears to make it clear that it may be possible to deduct\u2014I\u2019m sure that this is not correct, but I just want assurance from the Minister that what this is saying is not that you may make deductions if they\u2019re reasonable, even if the employee has not been consulted. I\u2019m sure that, on reading that full section, which I hadn\u2019t had time to do today, that would not be the case, but just on the general reading of clause 167 as it is listed there, I just want that assurance that that isn\u2019t the purpose of this particular change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u002258c38677d499497d8e4d45e83f8b0870\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258c38677d499497d8e4d45e83f8b0870\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s not the purpose of this change. In fact, the purpose of it is the opposite. When that section was inserted, the corresponding amendment to section 11 to allow for the recovery of wages deemed to have been deducted unlawfully under section 5A was overlooked. This insertion actually allows\u2014where wages have been deducted without the consent or knowledge of the wage earner\u2014either the wage earner or the labour inspectorate, acting on behalf of that worker, the ability to apply to have that money returned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 40 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f4bc49f4a62c468fb9740e660b20b304\u0022\u003EPart 41  Amendments to Water Services Act 2021\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00220daa48c833da480d9f3baaecc6b5d056\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220daa48c833da480d9f3baaecc6b5d056\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 41. This is the debate on clauses 168 to 173, \u201CAmendments to Water Services Act 2021\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7a23af2f37247e0834931b084fe2193\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d62e117dfb140769d9e807a2e0d469d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Part 41 stand part. I call the eager Rachel Brooking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022 data-id=\u002282f89160b5bf45e9bddf4c0f77f189c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282f89160b5bf45e9bddf4c0f77f189c1\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ve stood on all sides of this House talking about variations of the water services Act and I will come to a reference to some recent amendments in a moment, maybe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003EMy first question is about clause 169, amending section 25 of the Water Services Act 2021: what is wrong with the \u201Cthe\u201Ds? That\u2019s my question. The change here is that \u201Cthe drinking water supply\u201D is being changed to \u201Ca drinking water supply\u201D. I just want to know what the problem is that this change to the \u201Cthe\u201Ds is going to rectify. I note, of course, that there are a lot of references throughout the Act to \u201Ca drinking water supplier\u201D, but, of course, that\u2019s the entity rather than the actual supply. So that\u2019s my first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003EI have second question; it\u2019s a very easy yes or no. It\u2019s just that it seems that at clause 173, the amendment to replace \u201Cchanges\u201D with \u201Ccharges\u201D is a simple typo because all the other references to \u201Cc\u201D words with an \u201Ch\u201D in them in that section are \u201Ccharges\u201D, not \u201Cchanges\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003EAnd then, I guess, my final question is relating to clause 171. This again appears to be a typo issue because the word \u201Cissue\u201D is in the heading in relation to compliance orders, whereas in the text below, it\u2019s talking about \u201Cserving\u201D: the service of a compliance order. I have a small point on that, that the Minister might or might not be able to comment on, and that is that amendment to section 120, where I think this drafting error was made, looks to have been inserted on 27 August 2025. I\u2019m happy to be corrected on that. I\u2019ve just been looking at it on my phone and I\u2019m wondering if this is a case of\u2014I can recall speaking on some large Amendment Papers to this legislation\u2014this coming through an Amendment Paper at a late stage or if it has always been in there and nobody picked it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022c095d830e1ab423c98cdaba10fb3b34a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c095d830e1ab423c98cdaba10fb3b34a\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m going to work through them one by one and please feel free to stand up if I don\u2019t get them all. I\u2019m going to start with clause 169, section\u00A025(3): the \u201Cthe\u201D and the \u201Ca\u201D. It\u2019s all about consistency. So as you mentioned, \u201Ca\u201D is throughout the bill, so all they\u2019re doing is changing \u201Cthe\u201D to \u201Ca\u201D to have consistency. It has no policy implications at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EIn regard to clause 173, amending section 200(2)(c): yeah, that\u2019s fixing human error\u2014\u201Ccharges\u201D and \u201Cchanges\u201D, it\u2019s as simple as that. Clause 171, amending section 120: you may have raised a point that\u2019s actually been raised by another member earlier this evening on another clause, where there has been consequential amendments from other pieces of legislation. If that is indeed the case here, like I think it might be, then this just means that this is no longer relevant because it\u2019s already been sorted. I\u2019m of the understanding that the Parliamentary Counsel Office have made some changes to legislation that has gone through during the time that this bill has been going through its process. Just recalling that this bill was initially started under Labour, so it has been sitting for quite some time. So if it has been updated already, it will be inconsequential to this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 41 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228490a57a00404b459317b4c590ee9232\u0022\u003EPart 42  Amendments to Wildlife Act 1953\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f54893fb182f43a6aa92d774a844d5d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f54893fb182f43a6aa92d774a844d5d2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 42. This is the debate on clauses 174 to 176, \u201CAmendments to Wildlife Act 1953\u201D. The question is that Part 42 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022 data-id=\u0022b814ccca0902484b9519a175b0f979a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b814ccca0902484b9519a175b0f979a1\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for this. Section 175 is about the notice for open season for game, and subsection 15(5) that\u2019s being amended here says, \u201CAt any time during an open game season declared under subsection (4), the notice published in respect of that season may in like manner\u2014(a) be amended; or (b) be revoked and be replaced by a new notice.\u201D So my question is: why do we need to replace \u201Cduring\u201D\u2014so, that\u2019s during an open game season\u2014to \u201Cbefore\u201D, to include \u201Cbefore\u201D as well? The rest of the subclause is about changing a notice, so why would you be changing a notice before the notice period? I\u2019d understand it if this clause was about initiating a notice, but it\u2019s not about initiating a notice, it\u2019s about changing a notice. So I\u2019m just not quite sure how the sequencing of this works and why it is that you need to add in the \u201Cbefore\u201D to the \u201Cduring\u201D. That\u2019s one question. I\u2019ll let you answer that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022781fb145bcd641d7a7e2770e4dc8865d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022781fb145bcd641d7a7e2770e4dc8865d\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, this is actually just clarifying because the notices currently can only be issued once the season starts. Basically, depending on what the notice is, the notice could have clarifications about where a person can go or what they can do, so it seems reasonable to be able to issue a notice before the season starts so that a person understands what their requirements are instead of waiting till season opening or opening day and then finding that they\u2019re actually breaking rules and didn\u2019t know about it. So, that\u2019s why we\u2019re making that change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022 data-id=\u0022094dfdc42caa4319b46aa571d58236d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022094dfdc42caa4319b46aa571d58236d5\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to the Minister for giving that explanation of the earlier notice to start with. That makes sense. Then, at section 176, in replacement section 66A(3) of the Wildlife Act\u2014there\u2019s an (a) and (b)\u2014we can see the change in the bill is that \u201C(3) A person commits an offence and is liable \u2026 to the penalty \u2026 if [they]\u2014(a) contravenes subsection (2); or\u201D\u2014and this is the new part\u2014\u201C(b) wilfully gives false information or provides false evidence under subsection (2).\u201D The introduction here is of this wilful false information, so my question to the Minister is: have there been problems with people giving false information that has led to this amendment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u002288438acc184d4698a79f21f04245989b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288438acc184d4698a79f21f04245989b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E That\u2019s a really good question. I thank the member for asking it. I would say that no, that\u2019s not the reason for the amendment. The reason for the amendment was because that offence was actually accidentally removed during the Wildlife (Powers) Amendment Act 2017. There is an issue with when rangers turn up and then they get given the wrong information\u2014purposely too\u2014by some people who are trying to evade, especially if they\u2019re poaching. We\u2019re actually just putting back in an offence that was accidentally removed back in 2017, just to give those rangers a bit more power and a bit more teeth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EPart 42 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ff7c501c1dc04f49b7de1a05efa687d2\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00228213955a72fb46e8afe8cb1637828e1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228213955a72fb46e8afe8cb1637828e1a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to our final debate, clauses 1 and 2, \u201CTitle\u201D and \u201CCommencement\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022590d755b2a4a40a18adbb4685cc9ce41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022590d755b2a4a40a18adbb4685cc9ce41\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m so sorry, Mr Chair. This is a just super, super quick call. I just want to be on record to say how much we appreciate the Minister\u2019s engagement in this committee stage. That\u2019s all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00225e4b703fcde443f9bd79df2315742bd6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e4b703fcde443f9bd79df2315742bd6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has the Statutes Amendment Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u00229225300d854244d3aef1ee1e6e48b391\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229225300d854244d3aef1ee1e6e48b391\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fc2749d2197b48c7ab0fbab1fb9aa183\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7ce22336f0d4327a16e2fc25a89704b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7ce22336f0d4327a16e2fc25a89704b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Statutes Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022598e1b2276a7433485bd6bd9c1b2e425\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on Parliament\u2019s website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228745db0879394d44add114704f65be3b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Statutes Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EAs the House will be aware, statutes amendment bills make small and technical but important changes to our legislation to ensure that it is up to date and it\u2019s fit for purpose. Many of the amendments in the bill correct drafting errors or references, some amendments clarify the intention of the existing provision, and other amendments make technical changes to ensure our systems and functions can operate effectively. Each of the amendments in the bill has received unanimous cross-party support. The bill as reported back to the House from the Governance and Administration Committee amends 42 primary Acts administered by 11 Government agencies. The Governance and Administration Committee agreed to the changes recommended by the Ministry of Justice and other agencies in the departmental report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EIn summary, this bill will provide much needed changes to the statute book. The amendments will ensure that New Zealand\u2019s legislation operates efficiently and effectively. Again, I want to thank members of the Governance and Administration Committee for their time and their effort, as well as all of those people who submitted on the bill. I also want to thank all members of Parliament for their support of the amendments in the bill. I look forward to working constructively with parties as the next statutes amendment bill is put together. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbcf2e2536444e3482f1078daab60749\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbcf2e2536444e3482f1078daab60749\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022fbe02516e5a24b45a61ee2b83599da8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fbe02516e5a24b45a61ee2b83599da8d\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to speak on this Statutes Amendment Bill at the third reading. We\u2019re all at one, holding hands, over this bill. This really is just an example of what David Seymour would call regulatory stewardship, and, in fact, you know, it\u2019s just a matter of good regulation\u2014good regulatory standards. And it\u2019s good that we have this, because I understand that Winston Peters is going to repeal the Regulatory Standards Bill very soon, which just goes to show we didn\u2019t need it anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222605b758806d49a88fc0f447d8506dbe\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Two days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240693d4df9d44f4a9abefbfd482def42\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, two days in. But look, these statutes amendment bills are important. I mean, some of them are correcting slips: the slip that said you had to ask for consent when you search someone\u2019s house and seize their firearm; you have to ask them if you\u2019re allowed to destroy it rather than allowed to destroy it if they don\u2019t object\u2014I mean, that\u2019s a cracker. It really is a good example of the need to be vigilant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EI guess the fact that, in reality, there\u2019s relatively few slips like that is a testament, perhaps, more to the Parliamentary Counsel Office (PCO) than our select committee process and other scrutiny that goes on. PCO are very, very good at ensuring that that doesn\u2019t occur and picking it up when it does. There\u2019s some modernisations going on there; there\u2019s a huge chunk of the Act that includes amendments to armed forces regulations and the Defence Act simply to stop using the word \u201Cairman\u201D and turn it into \u201Caviator\u201D. And I guess that\u2019s fine, right? It\u2019s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eac32f149d894fa0ac22ecceb7393316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9392f6854ae41d8b593aa9e0201b4b1\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: Is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225729f5b9032f4dc7a2dee85b469d31a7\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s fine to change it, isn\u2019t it, Mr Costley? Mr Costley would prefer to have it \u201Cairman\u201D. Mr Costley doesn\u2019t want to have women aviators, it appears. Or you just want to call them men, is that what it is? Whatever it is, I think spending some parliamentary time getting gender-neutral and inclusive language is actually OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EThe other one that was interesting, and I must say it caused some discomfort, was talking around some of the sexual offences, and people did get a bit queasy about it. That was in respect of the Criminal Investigations (Bodily Samples) Act and also the Criminal Records (Clean Slate) Act. I must say, and I\u2019m hoping somewhere out there the justice officials have a quick look at this, because the inclusion in the Criminal Records (Clean Slate) Act of offences under the 1908 Crimes Act is kind of weird, but weirdest of all is inclusion of \u201Cunnatural\u201D acts, which are acts against homosexual conduct\u2014they shouldn\u2019t be in there. I\u2019m surprised that if we\u2019re doing a statutes amendment bill, we\u2019re getting rid of references to having sex with\u2014I think the word \u201Cimbeciles\u201D was in there. That\u2019s fine. We can do that. But to then not go this step further and say, \u201CWhy have we got these other very strange offences which pre-date 1961 in there?\u201D kind of beggars belief.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EOne of the other things I think we\u2019ve got to be cautious about, and Celia Wade-Brown noted on a number of occasions, is this move towards electronic provision of both things like infringement notices and publication of Land Transfer Act notices, and there was information under the Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Act and so on and so forth. I\u2019m just a bit worried as we modernise the provision of information and the providing of notices, that we just do it, actually, just sloppily. To say you can provide further information on an internet address\u2014if you\u2019re going to go down that road, you need to go down it with as much detail as when you set out how to provide it in writing: the address for service, whether it has to be delivered or actually received, and things like that. I just think we\u2019ve gotten a bit sloppy by simply saying things like, \u201CBy emailing it\u201D and \u201CIt is sent when it leaves the information system of the sender.\u201D Well, if you\u2019re going to serve a notice, it\u2019s not enough to put a letter in the letterbox; it has to actually arrive. Now we might not really have\u2014do we still have registered mail? I don\u2019t know, but that\u2019s essentially a registered mail when you can prove receipt or a signed courier delivery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EAs we go through and modernise information provision, I do think we need to take care to make sure that it is calibrated appropriately in terms of seriousness. If you\u2019re sending a power bill\u2014not that that\u2019s legislative\u2014then an email is fine without knowing it\u2019s been received. But if you\u2019re sending an infringement notice, and one of the provisions here was about infringement notices, to simply say it\u2019s deemed received when it leaves your information system\u2014and you\u2019ve got to remember, if it leaves my information system, it then goes to my internet provider\u2019s information system, and it may go through another a number of other internet providers before it reaches the internet provider of the recipient, before it then reaches the information system of the person to whom it\u2019s addressed. And as Celia Wade-Brown identified, it doesn\u2019t often go wrong, but it can go wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EThe Minister herself noted that our own information systems can reject emails when they do not have the memory to receive them, which was the example she gave. But other situations can exist, as well\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022864eae2e846d45c9932e14bb62f5fe23\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Duncan Webb, I\u2019m sorry to interrupt you. Can I please have some quiet on the right side of the House? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf532824cc0e4dc482304e966fba23bb\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: You can interrupt me for that anytime you like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227812cab1178049859e249686f05be921\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Carry on, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a402c4199d864b4399e41626810a3b48\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I was just talking about how the Minister accepted that emails, in particular, can get rejected for a number of reasons. Spam, of course, is the other reason that can occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217622d73144d4930afec08d46a90f86f\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Faxes were much better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e90f8f6324f459d8325078671dad0df\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, yeah\u2014and, in fact, faxes were much better, because whilst there is a read receipt function on emails, you could actually always tell when a fax was received at the other end because you\u2019d get a notification. And, you know, it goes back a while now, but many a lawyer\u2019s file had the original fax and a little slip of paper that was proof that it had been not only sent but received.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EOf course, the other thing we talked about was the Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Act and keeping records of affordability testing. I can understand that keeping records of everything is onerous. There\u2019s no suggestion that every time a bank has an enquiry or a financier has an enquiry about a loan, they need to keep records. I was concerned that the Minister didn\u2019t really get the point that when a non-customer seeks a loan and is turned down or withdraws their application, then there\u2019s nothing to see, but in situations where a customer goes and asks for some variation, it\u2019s actually important that those records remain, because they\u2019re part of the customer\u2019s record of relationship with the bank and, also, a record of their financial position\u2014because if they are seeking hardship relief, formally or informally, then I think it\u2019s appropriate that the bank keeps full records of those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EThe other thing I\u2019ll say just in closing, and, you know, I didn\u2019t sit on the select committee and these statutes amendments bills are circulated prior to introduction, but I do think we need to exercise a little bit of caution about the extent to which they don\u2019t just clarify; they actually change meaning. This is not the place for improvements in legislation. There is a place for modernisation and there\u2019s a place for modernisation of language. There\u2019s a place for correction of errors, but substantial changes in how the rules work is problematic. It\u2019s interesting in the Real Estate Agents Act, the change from \u201Cinconsequential\u201D to \u201Cnot sufficiently serious\u201D\u2014same meaning but better for dispute resolution by not aggravating the complainant. But some of the other changes went a little bit further than that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003ESo, look, good to see we\u2019re all at one on this. Good to have a little bit of fun around the Statutes Amendments Bill. In an evening of an urgency debate, this is the archetype of a non-urgent bill. It shouldn\u2019t be on the Order Paper today, but here we are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u00228edf872c418240a89f0dce42dddcc8ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228edf872c418240a89f0dce42dddcc8ad\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand to also support the Statutes Amendment Bill. Like the previous speaker the Hon Dr Duncan Webb said, this was actually a bill that\u2014although it\u2019s quite long and there are many, many parts\u2014we did have a very wholesome discussion on and engagement with the Minister during the committee of the whole House stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ETo start with, there are 42 parts to this bill\u2014technically, now 41, because one of the parts has been removed and introduced as a separate bill\u2014and they have wide-ranging topics, as well. Again, it\u2019s just one of those bills that really exemplifies the way that, as a Parliament, how we do these sort of incidental corrections on a number of legislations as an omnibus bill that is agreed upon by the entirety of Parliament. Again, this is a bill that is supposed to make these sort of technical amendments, because, again, a lot of these\u2014regardless of what has recently been passed in the House\u2014once a bill is enacted, the only place to actually make any changes and make any corrections is through an Act of Parliament, because of the fact of parliamentary sovereignty, but also the fact that Parliament is the place to make law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI do want to touch on a few of the broader themes of the things that come up. Like I said, there are 42\u2014technically, now 41\u2014parts to this bill with a wide-ranging scope in terms of the different bills that it covers. But one of the first themes that we do come across is the theme of an update in the digital age. To give an example: at the very beginning, in terms of Part 1, we are looking at an update to the Accident Compensation Act that allows the consultation of levy setting, etc., rather than just solely being in newspapers, to be allowed to be done on an internet site maintained by or on behalf of the corporation. For this particular section, the Minister was incredibly helpful at also clarifying that \u201Cinternet\u201D, in this case, is much broader than a website, or otherwise it would have stated \u201Ca website\u201D. \u201CInternet\u201D does capture the scope of how we use anything that is online\u2014in which case, social media. It was very heartening to hear from the Minister that there is the encouragement that we do what we need to do\u2014as in, in general for Public Service agencies or departments\u2014to use all tools that are available now, including social media should they have a social media account, to also engage with other members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThe previous speaker the Hon Dr Duncan Webb mentioned quite a bit regarding one of the technical amendments to Part 34. This is around the Radiocommunications Act 1989. Both parts of this talk about how an infringement notice could be presented. Currently, an infringement notice could only be delivered either things like in person or physically through the mail, but it doesn\u2019t really capture instances where the person does not have a known place of residence or business in Aotearoa New Zealand\u2014so, in those cases, what this bill has upgraded to allow is for electronic addresses to be used. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ELike the previous speakers have mentioned, and also my colleague Celia Wade-Brown has mentioned, there are things that are more technical in terms of how, then, would we be able to track when it comes to a valid electronic address and how an issuing of that infringement notice, particularly when we\u2019re using lines that are technical in nature, that requires a particular ministerial intent or particular interpretation to know what is meant. In this case, it is around the fact that \u201Can infringement notice sent to a valid electronic address \u2026 is to be treated as having been served at the time the electronic communication first enters an information system that is outside the control of the Secretary or the authorised person.\u201D, which is a very long-winded way of saying \u201Cwhen the Secretary or authorised person presses send\u201D. But again, that does cover a broader thing, and this is something I will touch on a little bit later. Those are just two examples; one element of the theme that we see throughout the Statutes Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThe other one that we\u2019re seeing is the use of inclusive language or updated language or languages, or adjustment from languages that are no longer accepted or is considered appropriate in the 21st century. I think one of the ones is in Part 11, for example, when we\u2019re looking at amendments to the Criminal Investigations (Bodily Samples) Act 1995, where the term has been updated to the use of \u201Ccertain persons\u201D. The definition of that, according to the Minister, is something that can be determined through common law and through just general practice, rather than having a specific defined term. I think the other one that has been touched on by the previous speaker, as well, is around the Defence Act 1990. There is language that is being updated to be a little bit more inclusive. These are, again, some of the things that we are seeing running as a core theme of this bill that needed updating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThe third theme that I want to touch on is inconsistencies, and these inconsistencies could be anything from aspects of the bill that, when they\u2019ve been updated, have been left out in terms of the drafting. A good example of that is the Land Transfer Act 2017. When it was updated from being the Land Transfer Act 1952 to the Land Transfer Act 2017, the term \u201Cor the registered owner\u201D was dropped off, instead of being after \u201Cclaimant\u201D\u2014and this is clause 90 of the bill, and this is Part 23.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThere are also other instances where certain terms, for example, were incorrectly drafted or inappropriately drafted. One of the examples of that is in Part 36, when we were looking at amendments to the Search and Surveillance Act 2012, where the word \u201Cconsent\u201D was incorrectly drafted, when it\u2019s supposed to be \u201Cobject\u201D. Again, something like this we\u2019re seeing as being a technical update on something that, potentially, could have broader implications. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EAnother really good example that I think is worth mentioning is the amendment to section 29 of the Housing Act 1955, which is in clause 72 of the bill, and I think this is just so lovely. This particular section is replacing the term of \u201C1 pound\u201D. It was only recently picked up through this bill, for example, that the registration of an easement certificate still uses the pound as a currency as opposed to the New Zealand dollar, which is what we\u2019re using now. That has been updated from \u201C1 pound\u201D to \u201Cprescribed under the Land Transfer Act 2017\u201D. So\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222efd92933194f63870c3e33b53a011e\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the exchange rate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022224ba538ab5c4cb3b08b58e4e491249e\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: Great point. This is another thing, and the last part is just removing certain areas that has been repealed and hasn\u2019t really been updated as a part of this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EOne of the things that we also explored\u2014and it\u2019s a theme in a few multiple areas\u2014is just in terms of some of these amendments, what does it mean when the legislation was, for example, drafted incorrectly or when the bill has been enacted and has taken effect, but now we\u2019re making these kinds of changes? The Housing Act 1955 and also the Search and Surveillance Act are really good examples of, \u201CWell, we haven\u2019t picked up on that.\u201D, and so what happens for all of those people who have been paying for a registration of easement certificate up until now, when the legislation says \u201C1 pound\u201D versus what it\u2019s meant to be\u2014and I think the Minister has articulated those really well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EFinally, one of the last things that we explored as a part of this bill during the committee of the whole House stage is some of the concerns that\u2014again, the Minister has accurately said this is a technical bill. We can only do so much within this bill, but there are next steps that people could consider exploring through a member\u2019s bill on things that are a little bit broader than that. But with that, it was a really enjoyable bill during the committee stage, and the Green Party is supporting it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eac32f149d894fa0ac22ecceb7393316\u0022 data-id=\u002234a3c646eee24ed3a8ae5ba0683463f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eac32f149d894fa0ac22ecceb7393316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234a3c646eee24ed3a8ae5ba0683463f4\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E It was New Zealand\u2019s Governor-General in World War II, Sir Cyril Newall, who famously started his speech, \u201CMen of the army and navy, gentlemen of the air force.\u201D, and those gentleman and ladies who served in our Permanent Air Force and Royal New Zealand Airforce, from 1923 and 1937 respectively, have always generically been known as \u201Cairmen\u201D. Regardless of gender, of trade, or of rank, they were just all airmen, in the same way that we have soldiers and sailors. We\u2019ve now changed that, in Part 14 of this Act, to \u201Caviator\u201D\u2014except, of course, traditionally, an aviator was a man, and an aviatrix was a woman. We\u2019re ironically going for something that, traditionally, is a more gendered term. Now, I understand, and I accept the rationale for it, but it\u2019s just a shame to see 102 years of tradition go by the wayside. Regardless, I\u2019ll be voting for this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022 data-id=\u0022d098cea7c6a34cb49abd5d0e49ddd420\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d098cea7c6a34cb49abd5d0e49ddd420\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I had the pleasure of being part of the Governance and Administration Committee, which spent some good time discussing and perusing this bill. You\u2019ll note that there were a number of areas\u2014and this, really, is going to be minor and technical stuff and things which are agreed by everyone. There is no demurral in this House. I think, in the committee of the whole House and in some of the speeches which we\u2019ve just heard, the magnificent efforts of members occupying 10 minutes talking about these sorts of things, like Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232db48e5a6d24d09aa17c29c23f5cd84\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s such a delightful bill, to be honest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290054562f60f49578f89fda797c89e21\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it\u2019s remarkable. I\u2019m not going to try and do that. Anything that was any substance whatsoever\u2014as you\u2019ll see in the report there\u2014we have said is outside of the scope of this bill. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1289321f4434dc6bb0a9585112b1feb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1289321f4434dc6bb0a9585112b1feb\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: This call is a split call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f41afbd3704a77be3e16ea18a99f20\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8e2daac30ba4d5186d39470f15f126f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f41afbd3704a77be3e16ea18a99f20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8e2daac30ba4d5186d39470f15f126f\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I thought I would manage a No. 6 call\u2014thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f41afbd3704a77be3e16ea18a99f20\u0022\u003EI was on the Governance and Administration Committee, and it was a remarkable introduction to the breadth of legislation in this country. I would like to make a few comments about some of the items we discussed, and one of the things that I enjoy and, I\u2019ve heard, my colleagues do, at least on this side of the House\u2014I\u2019m not sure about the other side of the House, but we could be enlightened\u2014are great op shoppers. But who knew until we got this Statutes Amendment Bill that there was Secondhand Dealers and Pawnbrokers Act? I imagine pawnbrokers would need regulating, but I didn\u2019t realise that it was also real estate and second-hand dealers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f41afbd3704a77be3e16ea18a99f20\u0022\u003EThere are some really serious and important Acts in here that just needed to be brought up to date\u2014some unpleasant language that should be removed. I do have some slight sympathy with the word \u201Caviatrix\u201D being a fantastic word that it\u2019s great to get into Hansard. We don\u2019t call a chairperson, \u201Cchairman\u201D; in fact, it was until quite recently there would be certain female members of leading organisations that would like to be called the \u201Cchairman\u201D, but that\u2019s an unusual situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f41afbd3704a77be3e16ea18a99f20\u0022\u003EIn the main, Parliamentary Counsel Office and/or the legislators at the time pick things up, but, over time, those little errors accrue, and it was our job to look through these and even spot a few more opportunities. It\u2019s very good. I don\u2019t think it needed to be done under urgency at half past 10 at night, to be honest. However, until that point, until the point of urgency for both the committee of the whole House and urgency for the third reading\u2014I do think it needs a higher bar to go into urgency\u2014the process had been pretty good, because there was initial consultation about the things that should go into it, and that was consultation across the different parties, and they all agreed these things were straightforward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f41afbd3704a77be3e16ea18a99f20\u0022\u003EThere were a few, like the audiovisual link and the question of sending things by email and when it\u2019s judged to be sent, and we even found a few more interesting questions tonight, such as the potential difference in delivery dates between rural areas\u2014we\u2019re proud to receive mail five days a week, and I have to say the rural post is amazing, but with the towns and cities, I believe it\u2019s about three times a week and difficult to predict exactly when it\u2019s going to arrive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f41afbd3704a77be3e16ea18a99f20\u0022\u003EI am glad that I\u2019ve been introduced to this way of looking across a whole range of bills. I don\u2019t think it replaces the Legislation Design and Advisory Committee, which is actually a really good way of looking at law. It should be used, in my view, for members\u2019 bills and all Government bills, as well, and that would have meant that we wouldn\u2019t need what I would call the ephemeral Regulatory Standards Bill. I would commend this bill to the House and we fully support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4e4702921374426b1c93a2d2fdaf208\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4e4702921374426b1c93a2d2fdaf208\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, this has been fascinating to sit here for the last\u2014it feels like my full 28 years I have sat here, actually, for the entire Statutes Amendment Bill. But it has been really interesting to watch and see members engage in the process and look to improve it, but I also commend the Associate Minister of Justice for her proactive approach with trying to sort out what are minor, technical details that she is remedying and fixing. I just commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022 data-id=\u002261132d3ac8c346a69f77c661b5778367\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261132d3ac8c346a69f77c661b5778367\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, it\u2019s a pleasure to take a call on this, the third reading\u2014already\u2014of the Statutes Amendment Bill. It was quite a journey to go through all 42 different pieces of legislation that are amended by the Statutes Amendment Bill. I\u2019ve recently been watching the Back to the Future movies with my kids, again, and it felt a wee bit like that. We\u2019d be zipping from the 1890s, in fact\u2014I think was the oldest bill that we looked at\u2014through to 1955, 1983, and just going all over the place with the different bills and their historic relevance. This was an interesting process, and I came into this bill during the select committee stage. I wasn\u2019t there for the entire select committee stage, I don\u2019t think, at the Governance and Administration Committee. I do want to acknowledge my colleagues who are part of the Governance and Administration Committee and who have been contributing to this bill, including Celia WadeBrown, Tom Rutherford, and Tim Costley, I think, and others, of course, who are not on that committee, who also made contributions to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EThis is an interesting process: the bill is shown to\u2014as others have said\u2014all parties prior to it being introduced. I think I would concur with the comments made by the Hon Dr Duncan Webb when he said that this process that we\u2019ve been through tonight may have been more fruitful had we been through that process some months ago when it was first circulated. I think that\u2019s probably a lesson for all of us here, that when you do go through something in quite granular detail, there are important questions that arise. I don\u2019t think that there\u2019s anything that would prevent us, necessarily, from supporting those particular sections or changes, but I do think that when you do go through it so thoroughly, you do pick up additional things, so I think that that\u2019s something that we can all take on board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EOf course, this was a bill that was started under the Labour Government, continued under the National Government, and is very, very dependent on the very, very hard work of many, many different officials. I think I was reading before that there were at least 12 Government departments\u2014someone, maybe, who\u2019s familiar with that part in the bill could correct me if I\u2019m wrong, but there were a great number of Government departments who were involved in, probably, the drafting of this bill. I\u2019m not sure if they follow this type of thing, but I\u2019m sure it would have been something to be in a department who found a minor and technical error of the bill, have put it forward, have it form part of the Statutes Amendment Bill, and now they can see the satisfaction of that coming into law. So if anyone who has been involved in that is watching, thank you very much\u2014not you, Madam Speaker, but those watching\u2014for their hard work in bringing this bill forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EThis is an important type of bill to come forward. I don\u2019t think these types of changes should be left on the statute book. In this Statutes Amendment Bill, we saw some particularly egregious examples of some particularly abhorrent and offensive language which is still on our statute book. I think, at the time, during the committee stage, I mentioned to officials that if we do see that, I think it is really important that we do seek to amend that. I don\u2019t think there\u2019s an excuse for leaving that type of language on our statute book, so I\u2019m pleased that we\u2019re able to amend some of those words\u2014I\u2019m sure there are some others. I would just really encourage people that if they do find that type of antiquated offensive language in legislation, raise that with a member of Parliament, and, hopefully, they will be able to bring it to the next Statutes Amendment Bill and we can tidy up our legislation so we don\u2019t have those types of problems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EThere were a few funny things that were in this bill\u2014I mean, my colleague Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s mentioned the reference to \u00A31. How ridiculous that it\u2019s 2025 and we still have that currency included in our statute book, so that was interesting. I enjoyed looking back at provincial ordinances, which I did not know were still in place. When New Zealand had provincial governments, they put provincial ordinances in place; some of those are still in force\u2014very, very historically interesting\u2014and have been continued through the Statutes Amendment Bill. So that, I thought, was particularly interesting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EWe also had some more minor things. We had some typos that had been sitting on the statute book for a number of years, so a chocolate fish to whoever the official was who found the typographical error. Then, we did have changes to the Oaths and Declarations Act, which was one of the changes that we made at select committee. It\u2019s very important, I think, to make sure that, although technological advances continue, we don\u2019t lose some of those important things about face-to-face contact\u2014looking at someone to assess if they have capacity, which is always a question that a lawyer or someone taking an oath will ask; if they do have capacity, do they freely enter into an oath and declaration? Very difficult to do that with just audio, which was what was proposed in the initial version of this bill. I\u2019m very proud that the committee did take on the recommendation, and the Associate Minister of Justice did accept changing that, to make sure it was audiovisual, because I think that does uphold the integrity of the Oaths and Declarations Act. I think that was really important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EI do want to pick up on the issue that was raised by my colleague Tim Costley around gendered language. I think it\u2019s really important that we do not dissuade ourselves from the task that is inclusive language. When I\u2019m talking about inclusive language, I\u2019m not talking about anything more than not including language which is overtly sexist in legislation. Unfortunately, it is just simply the fact that if you say \u201Cmen\u201D or \u201Cman\u201D, generally, people think you are referring only to a man or men and not, in fact, to women or humans. I think it\u2019s such an easy thing for us to update that language, to use a term which includes both men and women, rather than sticking to what I believe are sexist stereotypes which make our children, if they hear them, think that certain professions are only open to one gender. We can change that through having inclusive language\u2014I don\u2019t think there\u2019s anything sad about it, and I would strongly push back against allegations from the other side of the House that there is anything that we should be looking back fondly on for language that tells our children that because you are a certain gender, you may not be able to do a certain job. So I very, very strongly push back on that, and I support the inclusive words which are included within this piece of legislation, which I think is very, very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f111048ae5a4b77b2be86987bd8aafb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022861ed5b53fe04ac5aeecaff4550a54dd\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a little bit off-track. That\u2019s not what he said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f00fd8c28bc4426fb54d2e8c63a5082e\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: I was here, I listened to it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a066aa73ba474f0b9cea0c015b9b3590\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: It is not what he said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ec9a60a8df7444b9b0f17bafd5343bf\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and I\u2019m responding in a debate. So that is very much what\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f111048ae5a4b77b2be86987bd8aafb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227836cfa8d7fa44269b58be3aea045973\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: Aviatrix.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff7110318d9244d89fff6fdf9151b935\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well, I actually\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268e17636c6f44e5d83f063995a60505a\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: He was saying, use the correct language for gender.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d323cb905e64162bb3b9a08f73705f4\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not a conversation; it\u2019s a speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ba9c907907f474c9fcf3b55bde10d9b\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, it\u2019s not a conversation; it\u2019s a debate. He raised a point; I\u2019m saying, let\u2019s make language inclusive. Let\u2019s not be equivocal about that, other side of the House; let\u2019s stick up for inclusive language.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f111048ae5a4b77b2be86987bd8aafb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c902e4363db4b409e570aa28e9895dc\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: He was saying it could be \u201Caviator\u201D, \u201Caviatrix\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282a84c6ef7694effbd510f636249a1db\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s very interesting that other members of the House disagree with it, because this is a bill that everyone in the House has to agree to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f111048ae5a4b77b2be86987bd8aafb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227929c9cc231c47229b503ed866262bc3\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not what he said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229016fee2411469fbab840f8f460f625\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not talking about him any more; I\u2019m talking about you, sir. You are challenging what is in this piece of legislation. If you want to vote against inclusive language, then you can vote against this bill and it will not go ahead. And I challenge you to stand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e688ba12b454866af60c65686527977\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not what he said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241a3e352bab945649642da388aca0289\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: If you\u2019re going to make comments across the House, stand up, vote against it, and let the public decide whether inclusive language is something that this House stands for or not\u2014totally up to you, and totally something that was raised in the debate and is perfectly appropriate to be discussed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eac6c3aa5817441f89ae786e919f239b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d250eb69fba14f378d272ee1a902e274\u0022\u003EDr David Wilson\u003C/span\u003E: False flag.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228977934d3ee14a229c8d11552dec458a\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: So that\u2019s what I think. I think we should encourage our children to do whatever job that they want.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8e1f3fbe99a413bb01ca3a8dec050c5\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Aw, \u201Cfalsely\u201D. He said it was \u201Cfalsely\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287ec6ee0385242d7a306e6b19953e1ac\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, this is a lot more drama than I expected from the Statutes Amendment Bill. Generally, it is not a bill which people get excited about; generally, most of the stuff in it is quite inane and just minor and technical amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003ELook, I think we can show that, with intellectual curiosity, with the fact that we go through this and we take our jobs seriously as legislators, we can actually find all sorts of interesting facts, not only about our history, not only about the history of New Zealand, the way we see ourselves as a country, the way things used to be, and the way we want to see things in the future\u2014all wrapped up in what we wouldn\u2019t usually spend so much attention on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EI do want echo the comments of my colleague Dr Duncan Webb when he said this isn\u2019t an appropriate bill to be put through urgency\u2014it is important, but it\u2019s not urgent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f111048ae5a4b77b2be86987bd8aafb\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc1cacabf613448d9599dabfbd2c2d81\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f111048ae5a4b77b2be86987bd8aafb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc1cacabf613448d9599dabfbd2c2d81\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I rise to make a brief contribution on the Statutes Amendment Bill. It\u2019s an omnibus bill that makes changes\u2014mostly minor\u2014to 42 different Acts. I\u2019ll just make one brief comment just in response to the last speaker, Camilla Belich, who I think was arguing with phantoms in her own mind, frankly, because everyone in this House is actually incredibly supportive of all men and all women and all young boys and all young girls having every opportunity available to them in this country. We have great people in our armed forces, where I served with men and women. So, with that, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b6c340598b2b4f3a8fca502e31805586\u0022 data-id=\u0022555975d74d1747f384ecb210053df1ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b6c340598b2b4f3a8fca502e31805586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022555975d74d1747f384ecb210053df1ff\u0022\u003ERt Hon ADRIAN RURAWHE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. I would like to speak about Part 17 and Part 29, which make amendments to two separate Treaty of Waitangi settlements. I happened to sit and speak to both of those when they went through the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b6c340598b2b4f3a8fca502e31805586\u0022\u003EI just want to bring to the attention of the House, if members aren\u2019t already aware, to the report from the Controller and Auditor-General on how Treaty obligations are being implemented by public organisations. At the time of the report, there\u2019d been 80 settlements with 150 public organisations, with 12,000 contractual or legal commitments in them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b6c340598b2b4f3a8fca502e31805586\u0022\u003EPart 17 and Part 29 deal with two of those commitments\u2014two out of 12,000. There are thousands still that have been committed to but have not been enacted yet. Prepare for the onslaught, is what I say to this House. If those public organisations don\u2019t lift their game\u2014because when you think about deferred properties, they have plenty of time to deal with them when we pass those pieces of legislation, and any reasonable person reading it would say, \u201COh, they\u2019ve got four years to do that particular contractual or legal obligation\u2014four years.\u201D Some people manage to go and buy a house in three months. Why is it that we are, in a statutes amendment bill, having to extend the time in which these two commitments can be done after the time that they were originally given? It\u2019s not really acceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b6c340598b2b4f3a8fca502e31805586\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Affairs Committee is looking into that very report right now and hearing from some of these agencies. I\u2019ve got to say there are some agencies out there, public organisations, that are doing an excellent job and would be great examples for around about 140 others that really need to lift their game. My contribution on those two parts is that when we pass those pieces of legislation, we apologise for everything that\u2019s gone wrong, we make contractual commitments to the iwi and then we don\u2019t deliver. We just need to do better. We need to have these organisations put in the resources, and that means the Government needs to resource them so they\u2019re actually able to meet those commitments, because it\u2019s quite clear that they are not being resourced properly to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b6c340598b2b4f3a8fca502e31805586\u0022\u003EWhen this House passes the next Treaty settlement\u2014I suspect it will be before the end of the year\u2014if you\u2019re in the House, remember this speech. Remember that there will be dozens of commitments in that Treaty settlement, and there will be an expectation from the people sitting up in the gallery that they are going to be delivered on. I think we owe that to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b6c340598b2b4f3a8fca502e31805586\u0022\u003EI want to support my colleague Camilla Belich. There was a time in this House when\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022370370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022265e04b46a774cb187ed1152f5bcaebe\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E:  The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022 data-id=\u0022ebdb8d2c4e0a41fdaf01fce17f762042\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ebdb8d2c4e0a41fdaf01fce17f762042\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Part 22 of this bill is an amendment to the Juries Act 1981, which is an Act that I\u2019ve also got a member\u2019s bill currently going through the House to amend, as well\u2014so clearly interested in any improvements to that Act. Therefore, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220891a9906b8d425b845d18840495df7f\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u00220b1392e602a544e5bdb2ef848e0f85c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b1392e602a544e5bdb2ef848e0f85c3\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a Labour Party call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211f1edeb1f854082a3b3ca14abc4d7ec\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: Bit too early? Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bad0339bc6042f595dd40b484ec1974\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Lemauga Lydia Sosene.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022 data-id=\u00222cab2c10928a43b18e9a196c905ac190\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cab2c10928a43b18e9a196c905ac190\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019ve been here for a few hours now and what I found fascinating about the Statutes Amendment Bill that we\u2019ve been going through\u2014I was just really listening intently, and I really appreciated the Associate Minister of Justice being so open and, also, informative. I understand that the Statutes Amendment Bill has covered a range of things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022\u003EFirst, can I acknowledge all of our speakers tonight across the House, but I wanted to really acknowledge Matua in speaking about iwi, because sometimes in our role we need to acknowledge\u2014it\u2019s a really important bill\u2014all of those across the House, but also the communities that we serve. We must never forget that, because that\u2019s why we are here: to make good legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022\u003EWhat I found helpful about the Statutes Amendment Bill tonight was listening, not just going through\u2014as a member of the Governance and Administration Committee, I do recall that we had different provisions of different Acts to go through, particularly in this bill. There are 42 Acts that cover 12 Government agencies. I do want to acknowledge all the officials, because they would come to the committee and explain the changes and the reasons for the provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022\u003EIt is also important that\u2014and I\u2019ve heard my colleagues on this side of the House repeat that\u2014in terms of modernising pieces of legislation, the language and the clarity around the language is important to really understand those provisions. I also did hear that some of the talanoa, the k\u014Drero, would lead into problematic areas, and Dr Duncan Webb highlighted that. I wanted to reflect on\u2014and I know Matua ran out of time, but it\u2019s important that this Government has made changes in terms of the strengthening or the empowerment of Te Tiriti. It\u2019s really important to acknowledge, when iwi make a contribution to this Whare, that we as politicians, we as parliamentarians, may not agree with different decisions and we have robust debate, but it\u2019s really important that we acknowledge iwi; we acknowledge our people of the land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022\u003EWhat I also appreciated in terms of my colleague Camilla Belich, in speaking about the modernisation\u2014and the Minister explained that really well and repeated why the different bills, specifically in this Statutes Amendment Bill, the purpose of it. What I appreciated about what Camilla did raise\u2014and she spoke about it very strongly in her robust debate\u2014was the inclusivity, the inclusiveness, and, also, when we are talking and making changes and we are agreeing and disagreeing, what kind of legacy are we leaving for our tamariki? Camilla spoke really well in terms of the strong messaging\u2014getting that across.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022\u003EWe understand that some of the provisions are about seeking clarity, and what, also, the Minister was helpful for was her advice in terms of the consistency of respective provisions and of respective Acts. There were a few Acts that I was quite interested in: the amendment to the Burial and Cremation Act, but also the Coroners Act, because I know that we talk a lot about life in the House but we don\u2019t actually acknowledge when it comes to death, and those two Acts in particular acknowledge provisions, and there was changing of wording. I was quite interested in that, because for M\u0101ori and Pasifika, we honour and we treat our people who have passed to the other side very carefully. We have tikanga, we have things that we specifically do in our communities because we are acknowledging that when those of our loved ones are passing over, there is law in terms of doing things right and processes and provisions, but we are also spiritual and we treat those who have passed\u2014I just wanted to reflect that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022\u003EWhat I also found helpful were the changes that were intended around clarity and clarifying the various provisions, specifically when it came to, sometimes, incorrect references. It was really helpful to hear the Minister explain her understanding of the broadness of some of the provisions. That was really helpful for me, because she then talked about alignment of the different provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022\u003EIn terms of the different Acts that we were going through\u2014and it was already talked about, in particular, the oaths and declarations. When we were on select committee, it was really helpful to really be focused and really have clear wording in terms of that specific Act and what it does and why it\u2019s really important to have the person not just talking about it\u2014we needed to have visuals, because the committee\u2019s job was to then look at the provisions, look at the wording, and correct it, and it was helpful for the Minister to acknowledge that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022\u003EJust with the substantive changes, it was important to understand, as a committee member, that our work is to strengthen, and we did have robust debates in terms of some of the provisions when it came to committee, because there is evidence in terms of affidavits and key aspects of the different bills, specifically with that bill and any substantive change, which was the one I\u2019ve just mentioned\u2014it is really helpful that when we are correcting our legislation or we are amending legislation, that the public understands the intent of those amendments. I just think that that\u2019s really important that, as we are passing legislation in this House specifically, we are communicating to New Zealanders why the change is important and we still get the purpose right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022\u003EI just wanted to talk about and reflect on my colleague Celia when she talked about\u2014and others have spoken about it\u2014email and then verifying when you press the \u201Csend\u201D button that you assume that\u2019s gone. Then Dr Duncan Webb also highlighted about the different email addresses, etc. I met recently with New Zealand Post, and one of the things that they talked about was now we\u2019re in an online world. The difference is that 12, 13 years ago, New Zealand Post used to deal with 88 million pieces of correspondence or letters and post; in 2025, that\u2019s now gone to only just over 150 million. So the change to the online world is really important, in reflecting that in pieces of legislation. The change, also, is around the necessity of having correct online email addresses so that we can guarantee through the provisions and the changes that we\u2019ve made tonight that we are cautious on the proposed changes and the modernisation, so that we don\u2019t end up changing things but it becomes more problematic. On that note, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270ed52c2243745f285c14a2d3413a86a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ffe80d467fbf45d7917ecbda351f9384\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270ed52c2243745f285c14a2d3413a86a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ffe80d467fbf45d7917ecbda351f9384\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I commend the bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2918ed7e68c4a86834d940141da5e05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2918ed7e68c4a86834d940141da5e05\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker; t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. In observing the speeches tonight\u2014it\u2019s a bit of a learning exercise for me, too, to be completely honest, when we\u2019re reflecting back on things that were drawn up in 1890 and then coming through to the 1900s and so on and so on. It\u2019s a revealing exercise about the ideas of those times and, fortunately, the change of those ideas to modern times. So it\u2019s a pleasure to stand tonight and offer a small contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003EI like the idea that outdated ideas should be put away and they should be refreshed with good, strong, and smarter ideas, particularly from the minds of women. I would imagine in the 1800s there wouldn\u2019t have been enough women in the House, bringing the energy and the capability and the intelligence of women and w\u0101hine into the House\u2014so good on us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003EThe omnibus bill addresses 42 corrective measures: longstanding errors, and unresolved matters designed by men. Did I say that? No, I\u2019ll just carry on. But anyway, all right, I\u2019ll stop doing that, but just to say that among these technical changes, one does stand out. I\u2019d like to mention that one: modernising the procedures of the House to allow members to take the oath online, including via Zoom. In 2025, this is entirely appropriate. Our parliamentary processes should reflect the realities of modern life while upholding the commitments that bind us to this service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003EFor those watching, the oath is the affirmation every member makes when committing themselves to serve the people of Aotearoa New Zealand. I will add that while I support this amendment, I believe the next step is necessary. The oath of this House should expressly include Te Tiriti o Waitangi. Te Tiriti is not a historical footnote; it is the foundation of our constitutional arrangements and the enduring covenant between the Crown and M\u0101ori. Embedding Te Tiriti within the oath would ensure that every member across all parties acknowledges that partnership and its obligations whenever we take our seats in this Chamber. This would not only strengthen our constitutional integrity but reassure te iwi M\u0101ori, who have endured a series of regressive bills during this Government\u2019s term. It would affirm that the power and responsibilities of this House are exercised in good faith and with respect for the founding promises of our nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003EWhile I support the technical amendments before us today, I will continue to advocate that: for Te Tiriti to be placed at the centre of our parliamentary oath and our democratic processes. Thank you, Madam Speaker, tautoko m\u0101rika i a au [absolute support from me].\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df8572c9d717414ebd8ed7b76887e04e\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c41224f758584e2b82fc590fddc63d34\u0022\u003EImmigration (Fiscal Sustainability and System Integrity) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022682c552a8c3644329939df9b31e5baec\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a82f509a5f8d4bb09590147c4484ac19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a82f509a5f8d4bb09590147c4484ac19\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Immigration (Fiscal Sustainability and System Integrity) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022150095f47818403ba0f3f4df017c612a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be82655683f04e69a890245cd75d6f8e\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Immigration (Fiscal Sustainability and System Integrity) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EThis bill is a sensible bill that addresses some gaps in the Immigration Act and will improve both the integrity and the fiscal sustainability of the immigration system. The bill allows the immigration system to ensure that compliance and detention settings are more balanced and more transparent and better aligned with the recommendations of the Casey KC and Heron KC reviews, strengthen both immigration risk settings and the protection of migrants from exploitation, enable the immigration system to respond to more challenges with greater flexibility, and allow the costs to the immigration system to be recovered more fairly. I want to highlight some of the more significant proposals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EDischarge without conviction will no longer mean that residence class visa holders who have committed crimes can escape consideration of their liability for deportation. Decisions around whether they should be deported or not will be made within the immigration system, where they should be. The select committee has recommended a number of consequential changes to other provisions throughout the Act that deal with criminal offending. The Immigration Act establishes powers to restrict a migrant screening of movement in some circumstances\u2014often because Immigration New Zealand is arranging their travel home and there is a concern that the person will abscond before they can get on a plane.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003ECurrently, the only available form of restriction of movement is detention. The extremes of putting someone in a prison cell or, at the other end of the spectrum, an agreement between the individual and the immigration officer about where they\u2019ll reside, which is an RRRA, or a residence and reporting requirement agreement\u2014Ms Casey KC found that to be unacceptable. We have therefore introduced electronic monitoring so that individuals who are judged to be an absconding risk can be appropriately accommodated and overseen without having to be detained in a prison cell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EThere was some confusion during the select committee process around the purpose of introducing electronic monitoring as a lesser form of restriction for individuals subject to restriction of movement. Some submitters voiced concern that electronic monitoring would become the default mechanism for monitoring those migrants and would replace the RRRA requirements. This is not the case. As recommended by Victoria Casey KC, it has been introduced to ensure that individuals are not unnecessarily placed in physical detention due to lack of appropriate alternatives. I would also emphasise that the decision to impose a condition of electronic monitoring will sit with a judge and will only be used when it is deemed to be both reasonable and the least restrictive measurement necessary to manage the risk of that person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EThe select committee has added a number of useful amendments to the provisions as drafted, which will improve their responsiveness to individual circumstances. I\u2019m also intending to introduce an Amendment Paper\u2014or I have introduced it\u2014to address some minor issues that have been identified with the electronic monitoring provisions in the bill. The changes proposed are technical and will ensure that the bill is workable in practice and consistent with other electronic monitoring legislation across the statute book. The changes relate to the conditions that can be monitored by electronic monitoring and the information the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) will need to provide to the court about whether electronic monitoring would be practical and would be feasible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EThe Amendment Paper also makes some very minor consequential changes to provisions that cross-reference the warrant of commitment provisions. The warrant of commitment changes come into effect three months after Royal assent, to time the relevant forms to be developed. A small number of clauses require consequential amendments to align their commencement with the main warrant of commitment provisions. These are minor and technical amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EAnother important change in this bill will ensure a future Minister to respond decisively to emergencies or other unusual circumstances by, for example, extending the visas of groups of migrants or granting visas to groups of migrants without needing applications, through making a special direction. As drafted, these special direction powers have very strong safeguards and their exercise would be very transparent. There is a mandatory publishing in the Gazette and on MBIE\u2019s website and mandatory annual reporting. The Regulations Review Committee could recommend that a special direction is disallowed by the House. The special directions cannot be used to disadvantage the people that they relate to. However, some submitters expressed their apprehensions around the breadth and concerns that they might concentrate executive power without the adequate oversight. In response, the select committee has increased the threshold for the Minister to make a special direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to thank the members of the select committee and the people who took the time to comment on the bill. As I\u2019ve already noted, the committee has recommended a number of very sensible changes which improved or clarified some of the proposed changes and I look forward to debating them. Amongst other things, they also require annual reporting on any applications for out-of-hours compliance visits and tighten the definition of a mass arrival group, where the people concerned have entered on more than one commercial aircraft. A number of submitters expressed concerns regarding the proposed expansion of who can be charged a levy within the immigration system and what that levy can be charged for. It is fair that the people who benefit from the immigration system\u2014not just the visa applicants but others such as the New Zealand Electronic Travel Authority requesters, employers, and education providers\u2014can help to address the costs that they contribute to and to make sure that the system remains economically viable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, the bill makes a number of changes which, between them, will improve the integrity of the immigration system and help it to be more financially and fiscally sustainable. These amendments strike a reasonable balance between addressing the real risks to New Zealand and better protecting migrants. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u00225a777e29f5164819b91854b55828d722\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a777e29f5164819b91854b55828d722\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022 data-id=\u00223d40f12ccf16454ca55ffbcba69d0b1c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d40f12ccf16454ca55ffbcba69d0b1c\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Labour\u2019s supporting this bill at second reading. The reason is that it does two important things. The provisions in the bill about system integrity improve and add to the systems and procedures of our immigration system and, I think, attempt to make it fair and consistent and effective. That is important to maintain public confidence in the integrity of our immigration system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003ESecondly, it strengthens the adherence to human rights standards in a number of respects, including through introducing judicial oversight in relation to the detention of asylum seekers and also in relation to the use of electronic monitoring. That\u2019s important, because around the world right now, so many Governments are walking away from the 1951 Refugee Convention and rejecting human rights standards as right-wing populist parties demonise refugees and migrants. It\u2019s important now that New Zealand holds the line and that this Parliament strengthens the integrity and effectiveness and the public confidence in our immigration system and strengthens our human rights performance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EI want to use the time I have in this contribution just to run through the nine different initiatives which are contained in this bill and give a sense of Labour\u2019s view on each of them. I look forward to the debate over the coming hours as we move through into the committee stage tomorrow morning and the third reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EThe new ministerial powers that will allow the Minister of Immigration to make decisions, or to grant or amend the conditions, on classes of visas without applications. This is the systems basically saying, \u201CWe quite like to have those powers that we gave ourselves during the COVID times. They were practical in times of emergency or unusual circumstances.\u201D We think that that they have adequate safeguards around them, and we think they will be a useful addition to the immigration system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EOn the question of deportation and criminal offending, there was a pretty spirited critique at the Education and Workforce Committee by the Law Society and others. I\u2019m looking forward to questioning the Minister about the argument that was made by submitters that, yes, this will allow decisions about deportation to be made by the immigration system and not by a court giving someone a discharge without conviction. But it does, I think, have the effect of undermining an important discretion that we give our courts to make decisions like that. So that\u2019ll be a debate I\u2019ll look forward to having. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EThe cancellation of residence class visas for people who are judged to be a security risk: the work on this was started by our Labour Government. It followed what\u2019s become known as the Samsudeen case\u2014the guy who wielded a knife in the LynnMall supermarket. The Government was put in a very difficult situation where someone who had protected person status; they could not be deported back to their country of origin. They were deemed to be a risk. They had residence. The Government had next to no leverage over that person and could do nothing but actually keep them under surveillance. This is an attempt, I think, to give a Government some leverage. It doesn\u2019t give much leverage in a very, very difficult situation. We\u2019re, in principle, supportive of this provision. I look forward to getting down into the detail on this in the committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EOut of hours warrants: so the Dawn Raids apology; I think it\u2019s something that across this House there is a lot of feeling for what was, you know, a period of our country\u2019s modern history where the State behaved appallingly to particularly Pacific Island migrants in New Zealand. It was really a stain on our modern history. It has left a legacy. The provisions here, which would require immigration officials to get a warrant from a District Court judge before they could carry out an out of hours compliance visit. There are a number of safeguards around that. We support that. We see it as important and a departure from more punitive approaches to immigration control. It\u2019s one of the aspects of this bill, I think, which ensures that our immigration system remains consistent with both domestic constitutional norms and our international human rights obligations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EThe next provision I want to talk about is the one that makes it an offence for someone, an employer or an agent, to knowingly seek or receive a premium in respect of the employment or potential employment in New Zealand of a migrant worker. I\u2019m sure we all agree that the incidence of the exploitation of migrant workers is appalling. We have to work hard to try to eliminate that exploitation. This is one of the aspects of it that is most galling. It\u2019s not uncommon for workers in India, China, Philippines, and elsewhere to pay anything from $20,000 to $40,000 or more New Zealand dollars to some dodgy agent in order to get that job as part of getting the visa to come to New Zealand. The current defence that\u2019s on the books, really, for a number of reasons, which we\u2019ll get into later, doesn\u2019t do the job. This attempts to make it to be much more effective at dealing with that problem. We support that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EThe next thing is warrants of commitment for asylum seekers. The Minister in her contribution talked about the report that Victoria Casey KC did. I was the Associate Minister of Immigration when Amnesty International and the Asylum Seekers Support Trust did their report, which exposed that New Zealand was jailing asylum seekers\u2014not huge numbers, but over a period of about 15 years, some 100 people or more were jailed, many of them in Mount Eden. The conditions that the Amnesty report exposed were truly shocking and it was a clear breach of our international human rights obligations. The work that\u2019s gone into this provision to put in place judicial oversight in the system of warrants before people can be asylum seekers, can be detained, is the critical final step in fully implementing the Casey reforms. There is much to be debated in this part about whether or not the protections and the safeguards are adequate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003ENext, electronic monitoring: this is going to give Immigration New Zealand the ability to go to a judge\u2014this is not just in relation to asylum seekers; this is right across the immigration system. A person who is subject to deportation or turnaround, they can seek a judicial warrant to have this person wear an ankle bracelet or electronic monitoring. I was one of the people at select committee that I think the Minister was referring to who expressed grave misgivings about whether or not this would become a default soft detention measure, as it has in many, many other countries internationally where electronic monitoring is very, very widespread. By the way, in New Zealand\u2019s criminal justice system, we are one of the world\u2019s biggest users of electronic monitoring. So I think they\u2019re fair questions to ask and I look forward to getting into them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EThe bill also expands the definition of mass arrivals by changing the definition to allow instead of a group of mass arrivals coming on a single ship, that it could be a group of aircraft in terms of commercial services. That\u2019s something that we\u2019ll discuss more. We, in principle, are willing to support that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EFinally, immigration levies: it\u2019s a massive, massive cash grab by this National Government, who tax anything that moves. I look forward to debating that more in the committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8ab01be0d58460b8fe9aa4ccdec11d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8ab01be0d58460b8fe9aa4ccdec11d8\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s important to put this bill in the broader context, which the previous speaker, the Hon Phil Twyford, did note, where we are seeing countries like the United Kingdom\u2014under a Labour Government, no less\u2014absolutely scapegoating migrant communities, refugees, and asylum seekers. It\u2019s absolutely shameful that we are seeing a growing scapegoating of communities, many who have escaped some of the most harrowing conditions imaginable to people. This bill comes off the back of the previous bill that created, effectively, a legal definition for mass arrivals that was completely critiqued and, I would say, slammed by all, not most, human rights groups, in this country. Most of them were asking the question: why? Why the choice of introducing the mass arrivals regime when Governments hadn\u2019t been able to substantiate that this bill was an actual imminent risk to the country of mass arrivals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003ENow, in this bill, what we are seeing is an expansion of that very same definition to, effectively, after the effective hysteria that we were about to receive mass arrivals by boat, now we were told by the Government that we need to taint this definition to include people arriving by planes or cruise ships\u2014literal moral panic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EThe thing is that when we compare ourselves to other jurisdictions, we as a country receive a very, very, very small amount of asylum seekers compared to others: literally 1 percent every 10 days. In 2024-25, that amounted to 37 claims at the border, which, for example, compared to Canada, which received 41,350 claims, or, for example, we\u2019ve got in the United States or the United Kingdom, where we\u2019ve also had a much greater amount of asylum seekers arriving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EThat, then, poses the question: what is the problem that the Government is trying to fix? Certainly, it is not a large amount of asylum-seeking claims. That is not currently happening in the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229a9c205f95fc4f5c8943b440b9f5cb1d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c789e85a0be6448483305582bdd400b3\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s about being prepared.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e352a1a48c74008ae3e1cc5f14a5e13\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: Being prepared for what, exactly? There we go. Here\u2019s the moral panic: being prepared. We\u2019re a country on the other side of the world where people are not arriving by boat nor by planes nor by cruise ship, and this bill is not just about expanding the definition of mass arrivals without actually justifying the reasons for it. This bill includes other measures which make deportation a lot easier. We did hear the previous speaker, the Hon Phil Twyford, talk about the concerns that lawyers, experts in this field, expressed when it came to those very same provisions. Currently, for example, it would be the courts who would decide whether someone would be liable for deportation by nature of having been convicted for a crime. Now, we\u2019re expanding that to basically add that someone is liable for deportation should they plead guilty or be found guilty, not necessarily being convicted of a crime, which, effectively, makes Immigration New Zealand the one who gets to decide that\u2014effectively, broadening the groups of people that could, for example, be subjected to deportation liability, and, effectively, putting more pressure on our Immigration and Protection Tribunal, on advocates on the ground, including MPs and their constituents, who will receive a far greater number of case work demands of people seeking justice and an ability to remain in the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve fought against unjust deportation cases under Labour and National Governments just in these two terms. In fact, I remember that I had to invite, multiple times, the previous speaker, one Christmas, to stop a Filipino man being deported, because this person, under hardship, had taken food vouchers that he shouldn\u2019t have and he admitted that it was wrong, but most people would have understood that during COVID times, people did things that they regretted, including this Filipino man. Fortunately, in his case, we were able to prevent his deportation, but we do see many migrants who, while experiencing huge amounts of stress, isolation, and just duress, end up doing things that they regret.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EIt is simply yet another case of moral panic, to use one single tragedy and then justify a lot of the provisions under this bill. I think our communities are served far better than this. Our communities deserve a judiciary that is able to process asylum seeking claims in a prompt manner. Our communities deserve an immigration system that is adequately resourced, not an immigration system that is currently seeing cuts to Crown funding under this Government, and then being sort of topped up by a levy which is not even going to be exclusively used to fund the immigration system, which also poses another issue\u2014which is that we have a levy being put in place here, rather than being charged to a group of people, through a system that is then being used to cover other costs that the Government may be experiencing, rather than utilising and fixing the tax system that we have to have decent quality healthcare and quality infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EFor a Government that talks about the pressures that employers face and yet a Government that also recognises that migrant workers will continue to play a huge role within our workforce, they seem to be quite happy to load additional costs on employers and migrants within this levy. So the Green Party opposes the idea of using a levy through the immigration system to fund infrastructure and other parts of our system that we all use, because at the end of the day, that is what the tax system is for, and we\u2019ve got to recognise that this comes off the back of the Government massively hiking immigration visa fees, which have resulted in migrants having to put themselves into debt in order to apply for these visas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to other provisions of this bill, I recognise that the Government and the Minister\u2014and we share this concern that premiums being paid overseas for fake jobs are a genuine issue. I think most political parties here agree that this is quite a serious issue. Most constituency-based MPs, and I include list MPs here who care about immigration, deal with issues of migrants who have, basically, been offered fake jobs and have paid premiums just to come here onshore and find themselves with no job whatsoever. I have worked with many of these cases and the sad thing about people finding themselves in those situations and having been scammed is that there\u2019s often not adequate support available for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EAdding a criminal charge, effectively, for this is a step in the right direction, but the Government needs to go further and needs to do more to support victims of the scams, instead of, for example, gutting the length of the migration exploitation protection visa, which leaves those very same victims of these now new crimes that we\u2019re going to be adding more vulnerable to precarity and to future exploitation. So we\u2019ve got to work at all levels of the system to ensure that migrant workers are adequately protected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EThe other component of this bill where we think the Government did not go further is in the out of hour visits by Immigration New Zealand. I look forward to the discussion at the committee of the whole House stage, where we\u2019re hoping to put forward some amendments that will tighten this component of this bill, because out of hour immigration rates should only be used in situation involving public safety or matters of national security. In other types of situations, we acknowledge submitters, and the Children\u2019s Commissioner, for example, who talked about the intergenerational impacts for children and households that are subjected to out of hour rates. We know this because this is not a new issue. We\u2019ve heard from families who\u2019ve experienced the Dawn Raids many decades ago, which the previous Government apologised for, about how these out of hour visits caused humongous amounts of intergenerational trauma and harm to families in the communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EOne of the key issues that we have with this bill is that the Minister is trying to claim that it is about the so-called integrity of the immigration system. But it\u2019s trying to find a problem as opposed to going to the core of the issue, which is that it\u2019s not that migrants are inherently criminals, it\u2019s not that we\u2019ve got an immigration system where we have huge amounts of asylum seeking claims; it\u2019s that we have successive Governments that have ignored the need to adequately resource the judiciary and our immigration systems to aid the process of asylum seeking claims in a humane and prompt manner, as well as ensuring that there\u2019s adequate support for exploited migrants and decent enough support available for migrants who, for example, may be experiencing ill mental health\u2014and I include residency visa holders in that\u2014so that they do not cause harm to others as a result of the ill mental health that they may be experiencing. This is where the focus of the Government should be rather than trying to pretend that this bill is about better protecting refugees, asylum seekers, and migrants, when, actually, they\u2019re simply creating more tools for them to be able to deport members of the community who actually have put roots down here and deserve to be treated with respect and dignity as opposed to being subjected to moral panic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022 data-id=\u00221f71d09489dd48f38aeac01f92b9d4aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f71d09489dd48f38aeac01f92b9d4aa\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m taking this call on behalf of ACT to support the Immigration (Fiscal Sustainability and System Integrity) Amendment Bill. As a member of the Education and Workforce Committee, I would like to start by thanking all 70-plus submitters who submitted on this bill. I also want to thank those who appeared before the select committee and presented their submissions and were also willing to answer the questions that we asked about their submissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003EI must say, it is because of the work that we all did after hearing submissions that we have been able to report this bill back in an improved form. Several changes have been made in this bill, and I won\u2019t list all those changes that have been made, but I would say that immigration is a field where we have to really balance the national interest and also the interest of the individuals\u2014those who use our immigration system. As the name of the bill says, it\u2019s about fiscal sustainability, so we want to make sure that, fiscally, the system is sustainable, and we are not putting all the burden just on applicants. We want to distribute that burden to other people as well\u2014those who are benefitting from our immigration system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003EThe second part in the name is \u201Csystem integrity\u201D. Several provisions in this bill are to ensure that we are safeguarding our immigration system to ensure that it\u2019s not open for exploitation. Very quickly, to the Green member who just resumed his seat\u2014he talked about mass arrival groups and also talked about the asylum seekers\u2014this bill is not about the numbers of asylum seekers coming to New Zealand or increasing or decreasing that number. It\u2019s about defining what \u201Cmass arrival group\u201D means, and that definition was tightened in the select committee process to ensure that we know what kind of timeline we are talking about when people enter into our country through any commercial routes as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003EA final point I want to make is about exploitation, which the member was emphasising a lot. What I\u2019m really happy to see in this bill is that when people charge a premium in that situation, this bill will extend that as an offence when it happens outside of New Zealand as well. There are a lot of good things in this bill. This bill is about ensuring our immigration system works for all, and I support this bill and commend this bill to the House. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022 data-id=\u00224c3e2167750c4b02b903bca7b49b25a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c3e2167750c4b02b903bca7b49b25a6\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to speak in support of the Immigration (Fiscal Sustainability and System Integrity) Amendment Bill. I appreciate the member who just resumed their seat for bringing some logic and common sense back into this debate. This is a relatively complex bill because of the number of components that it is seeking to address, but it is a very important piece of legislation, and I think that is the component about building an immigration system and continuing to strengthen it. There is a lot of moving parts that happen in the immigration process, and, therefore, we have to be vigilant and aware of all of the things that we need to deliver to ensure our immigration system is effective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022\u003EIt is about recognising greater securities and safeties for those that are in the system and potentially able to be exploited. It astounds me that we are, yet again, being challenged about the idea that we prepare and have a system in place for a mass arrival, should it occur. I mean it is the common sense of fail to plan and you plan to fail. This is exactly what this piece of legislation is doing. There is a naivety in suggesting that if we just close our eyes and pretend it isn\u2019t happening, it won\u2019t happen. Then, when you do have this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244459186688a4a2ca6e81c5e67e94963\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not happening. Look at the facts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c408c1521a314204bb6a292c7dd11210\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. That\u2019s the logic that we\u2019re faced with\u2014\u201CBecause it\u2019s not happening, we, therefore, don\u2019t have to worry about it.\u201D Then, when it occurs, we have no systems in place to provide the protections\u2014which we know occurs. We know and absolutely understand the vulnerabilities of children that get trafficked through a process of mass arrivals. We know that we need to have a process by which we can protect and contain people while we provide health assessments, where we can provide health assessments and interventions, where we can do the logical practical things that people who know how to run a system, run a business, and run a process, and not those that like to virtue signal and sloganeer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022\u003EThis is exactly the point why this piece of legislation is so important. When others campaigned and sloganeered, I spent my working life investigating exploitation and prosecuting offenders. I actually did the work that needed to be done\u2014whereas we have politicians in this House that like to just create slogans and disrupt and be negative. I absolutely commend this bill to the House. I commend the Minister for the hard work that they\u2019ve done to produce this piece of legislation and the select committee for bringing the legislation forward in a practical and logical process that will ensure we have good legislation at the end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00222f58e1c109784115a8a3d27daa0f575d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f58e1c109784115a8a3d27daa0f575d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Five minutes\u2014Teanau Tuiono.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u002288b74b96c1af4ed09815603024e84a30\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288b74b96c1af4ed09815603024e84a30\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Greens to support the call by my colleague and friend Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March on this, the Immigration (Fiscal Sustainability and System Integrity) Amendment Bill. We did have a few responses from the other side of the House about preparing, and I think Mr Men\u00E9ndez March made some good points about mass arrivals. I would invite the House to not buy into the right-wing hysteria that has engulfed other parts of the world where they scapegoat refugees, scapegoat migrants, and scapegoat people that are different than them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EIf we want to talk about being prepared, I have some suggestions for that side, and that is: to make sure that our public services are well funded; to make sure that we have quality health services, education services, and mental health services. We just heard them talk about making sure that we prepare\u2014how can you prepare when the public services have been ransacked by this Government? Thousands and thousands of people have lost their jobs, and thousands more are getting on the plane and going to Australia to greener and better pastures because of the economic carnage of that side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EIf we want to prepare we have to do those things. You have to provide the foundations\u2014the foundations to make sure that when people put deep roots into this country, into their communities, that they\u2019re well supported, that their kids are well supported, particularly if they come here as refugees, particularly if they come here as asylum seekers; as opposed to finding new ways to punish them. Yes, there are issues, but those issues can be solved if we look for solutions that take care of people and if we look for solutions that make sure that your provide the fundamentals. I hope that that message resonates with the House tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EThis bill has a number of changes. It expands the charging of immigration levies, expands the definition of \u201Cmass arrivals\u201D\u2014I just talked about that\u2014provides more powers for ministerial direction, and strengthens protections for out-of-hour raids and detained asylum seekers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EI was here in the last Parliament when we apologised for the Dawn Raids. We apologised for the Dawn Raids that were horrendous and a stain on New Zealand\u2019s history, our Pasifika people were targeted. We were invited to this country during the economic boom to do all the jobs that nobody else wanted to do, and then, when the economics turned, they wanted to deport us and kick us out. That was the time of the Dawn Raids. After we had the apology, what I heard\u2014and I know a number of members around this House heard as well\u2014is that there were still Pacific Island families and others who were still getting knocks on the door at dawn\u2014at dawn\u2014when their children were home, when their families were preparing their breakfast, while they were preparing to go to work, as well, people that have put deep roots into this society. So I do note that the select committee did do some work around what to do about the out-of-hours compliance component of this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EI would invite the House to really consider an Amendment Paper by my colleague Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March, which is to make changes to clause 26. It\u2019s an amendment which focuses on the limit of out-of-hours immigration to situations involving public safety or matters of national security, so it\u2019s not a free-for-all, so you have a particular focus. This was one of the options recommended by the Heron KC report, to address the distressing impacts of out-of-hours compliance activity, which, of course, underpinned what happened with the Dawn Raids. So I would really encourage the House to do that as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EProbably my other reflection\u2014because I wasn\u2019t on the select committee, as well, and I see that there were a number of changes in the select committee report, and that is the work of the select committee: to take some bills, make some recommendations and make them stronger, and I hope that made some improvements and I hope that has happened. But I couldn\u2019t help but notice that there is a 46-page Amendment Paper from the Minister herself, and we are going into the committee of the whole House after this. This is a big Amendment Paper. A lot more work needs to be done on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022 data-id=\u00221decc51a3ac34e2fbeb4145f6519955d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221decc51a3ac34e2fbeb4145f6519955d\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, and thank you for the opportunity to speak on the Immigration (Fiscal Sustainability and System Integrity) Amendment Bill. It was my pleasure to chair the Education and Workforce Committee through this process, and it\u2019s great to see the work that has been recognised by the collegial approach we had across parties to ensure we made amendments to the bill as it was guided through that process, to present it to the House for consideration this evening. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022 data-id=\u00228303689f79b04a47887bd2ad2aa7aec4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228303689f79b04a47887bd2ad2aa7aec4\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA (Labour\u2014Panmure-\u014Ct\u0101huhu):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. M\u0101l\u014D e lelei. I rise this evening, even though it\u2019s 11.30 p.m. at night and we are here in urgency. This is a really important bill, the Immigration (Fiscal Sustainability and System Integrity) Amendment Bill. My colleague the Hon Phil Twyford, who is our immigration spokesperson, has already talked about one of the many reasons why we are supporting this particular legislation. I do want to commend the Minister of Immigration for all of the hard work and diligence that she and her ministry have put to ensuring that we have this law before us this evening, because there are many longstanding issues that need to be addressed to strengthen the immigration system in Aotearoa New Zealand. I would like to discuss at least two of those in a bit more detail to what our immigration spokesperson has spoken about earlier on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to first of all talk about the lessons that we should learn from the 1970s Dawn Raids, which remain seared into the collective memory of Pacific communities in Aotearoa New Zealand and, can I say, particularly for people like myself\u2014Tongans. Because it was, when we look at the statistics of who were the ones who were the most chased by the police dogs, who were the people who were deported the most during the Dawn Raids, who are the people who are still suffering from the trauma of the Dawn Raids the most, I would say it would be people from Tonga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003EI remember it as a memorable day: the day that the Government gave the apology\u2014the official apology\u2014for the Dawn Raids at the Auckland Town Hall. As we were walking into the town hall\u2014and I remember because, at that time, I was actually wearing traditional mourning clothes. I was mourning because one of my father\u2019s sisters had just passed away. But it felt for me like I was also mourning on behalf of the Tongans that were affected. As we were walking through the town hall, they played video clips from those days in the 1970s of dogs barking in the early morning of dawn, as Tongans were being raided in their homes. We heard young children crying, because what would you do when strangers are storming through your house in the middle of your sleeping, and that is what you\u2019re woken to? As a child, you\u2019re woken to all of these noises\u2014all of these dogs barking and people stomping their feet to come through and to arrest you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003EI want us to learn from our history. This bill has an out-of-hours warrant requirement. I want to be clear: this is not an abstract policy change. It is the direct response to one of the darkest chapters in New Zealand\u2019s immigration history. Because in the 1970s, during the economic recession that followed Britain\u2019s entry into the European Economic Community, the New Zealand Government at that time made a deliberate choice to scapegoat a particular group of people: Pacific Island workers, Tongans, Samoans, other people from the Pacific who were actively recruited by New Zealand to come to this country to fill the labour shortages of jobs that New Zealanders at the time did not want to do. They were the boom years. But the Pacific Island folks suddenly became the targets for blame. Yes, I see you saying that I should narrow it, but the out-of-hours warrant requirement is actually in this bill. It is one of the nine amendments that this bill is addressing, which is why I\u2019m focusing on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003EWhat followed the Dawn Raids on the Pacific Island homes, which is what I just described earlier on with the dogs and all that\u2014but I want to talk about the statistics, because it tells a damning story. During the mid-1970s, Pacific Islanders comprised roughly one-third of the overstayers, and yet they represented 86 percent of the prosecutions. Americans, British, and Europeans also roughly they actually had one-third of the overstayers, and yet they only represented 5 percent of the prosecutions. This was not just immigration enforcement; this was racial targeting. This disparity was not accidental; it was the direct result of deliberate Government policy at that time. For many decades from that day up until now, the trauma of the families that were affected still lives on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003EDuring the apology, I\u2019d like to quote the Pacific person\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fff5c46ce99e4ab6a15274e42730a566\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Ms Salesa, we\u2019ve had nearly six minutes. Could we now go to the bill. I know you\u2019ve spoken to one of these, but now we are talking about the bill, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265a96e88d76141f8b13b5d28a91d5c23\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA\u003C/span\u003E: OK. So the bill actually has a new section. The new section is 293B(4). This subsection of the legislation is, basically, about the judicial warrants that out-of-hours compliance visits must have. This is, actually, because we do not want to see, in our present and into the future, a repeat of the Dawn Raids.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003EBut, Mr Speaker, if you would just indulge me to quote from the person who actually was speaking on behalf of all of those who were affected. Her name was Her Royal Highness Princess Mele Siu\u02BBilikutapu from Tonga, who has now passed away. May she rest in peace. I quote, \u201CI\u2019m very grateful for your Government for making the right decision to apologise. The right to the extreme, inhumane, unjust treatment specifically against my community in the Dawn Raids era.\u201D She also issued a warning, which is vital to the debate and to the bill that we\u2019re about to pass. I quote: \u201CThe trauma and impact of the dawn raids has been intergenerational.\u201D It has haunted my community for years and it will be for years to come if we are not going to do the right thing. That is, essentially, the question that I would like us to answer tonight. The question for this Parliament is simple: are we going to do the right thing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003EFortunately, the section that I just quoted before, new section 293B(4), is the response to that. Because even after that apology was given, dawn raids were not supposed to happen again. Teanau Tuiono spoke about it earlier on. There were still dawn raids happening in my electorate of Tongans, which is why the Michael Heron KC review examined Immigration New Zealand\u2019s out-of-hours compliance practices and found, to the shock of many, that many of these early morning raids\u2014echoes of the Dawn Raids\u2014were still occurring, even in 2024. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003ENow, this bill changes that, because, from now on, any immigration officer who wishes to conduct an out-of-hours residential compliance visit must obtain a judicial warrant. A District Court judge will examine whether the visit is (a) reasonable in all the circumstance, (b) proportionate to the risk, (c) in the public interest, and (d) a last resort after all reasonable alternatives have been considered. This is not red tape; this is the rule of law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e126c772adc74d4a9442f2964e757bc5\u0022\u003EThe other change that this bill is going to affect is charging of premiums. As our ethnic spokesperson and as many of us who are electorate MPs know, there is so much migrant exploitation that actually happens in Aotearoa New Zealand right now. We know that agents both here in our country and overseas are charging thousands and thousands of dollars to people to come here to work. Some of these people, when they arrive\u2014whether they arrive from, for instance, the Philippines, India; and I\u2019m just giving you cases that have come through my office\u2014they come here after paying thousands and some of them over $50,000 New Zealand dollars and there is no job. No job in New Zealand. Then they\u2019re stuck in this country. They don\u2019t want to go back. First of all, they don\u2019t have the money to pay for the ticket to go back. But also because they\u2019ve taken a loan of up to $50,000 New Zealand dollars\u2014they don\u2019t want to go back without actually having the money to go and pay back that loan. I am glad that this bill actually takes the right step of addressing migrant exploitation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff541c12ce834d38b4651d21765e71dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff541c12ce834d38b4651d21765e71dc\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to make a short contribution in this debate on this Immigration (Fiscal Sustainability and System Integrity) Amendment Bill. The reasons for this have been very well traversed, and I couldn\u2019t say it more eloquently than the previous speaker, and, therefore, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8f38eeb12b04e7b9c62ef7b408f1f70\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8f38eeb12b04e7b9c62ef7b408f1f70\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Listening to the debates, it is clear that there is a difference in opinion, I think, across the House about whether this is responding with a knee-jerk reaction to some form of moral panic or whether this is a way of enhancing civil liberties and human rights by making sure that we have a regime that is prepared to accept the unfortunate reality of asylum seeking that is happening globally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EIf I look at the statistics, since 2012 there have been more than 20 million people who have sought asylum globally. Many, many of those have occurred during mass arrivals, and many of them on the high seas. New Zealand has been relatively lucky, through the tyranny\u2014or the fortune\u2014of distance, to be able to avoid the very difficult situation of accepting asylum seekers who have come without a legal process or without an application process. And we have not had to face grappling with the issue of how do we manaaki these people yet also follow our own immigration laws and what is the regime that covers them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EI think my colleague the Hon Jenny Salesa was right to refer to the Dawn Raids as being one of the terrible examples where we came close to what we see over in Australia, for example, with detention centres where people have lived for years or on Christmas Island and in other places. Equally, we had the Tampa ship that came under the Helen Clark Government and was a really vexing question for New Zealand as to how to deal with asylum seekers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EIt is very much the view of Labour that preparation is the best way to uphold the human rights of these people and also to uphold the national security interests and other interests of New Zealand. Because if we have a plan and we have a system that is fair and that is agnostic, that cannot be corrupted, and that takes into account the same principles no matter who is arriving, then that is the most that we can do in what is this unfortunate reality. So I do have to take issue with the Greens for taking what they would perceive as a moral high ground, when in fact the unintended consequence of trying to bury our heads in the sand and to say this is not a possibility\u2014or a real possibility, in fact\u2014could be really damaging for the people involved and for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EI note just on Radio New Zealand tonight, there is a story about submarine shells\u2014three of them\u2014being found near the Solomon Islands to do with drug cartels, probably from South America. Now, if submarines are being used to carry drugs trans-nationally, it\u2019s not too long before we see submarines carrying people as well. Suddenly, that advantage of distance that New Zealand has been able to enjoy will no longer be available to us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThe question, then, is if we\u2019re going to have this regime, how do we make sure that it is fair, equitable, upholds human rights, has processes that safeguard our national security and our immigration rules, but also safeguards human rights? It is a really difficult balancing act, and the bill that we see before us actually started under Labour and involved many discussions about those competing rights. So this, for those people who think that there can\u2019t be cross-party collaboration, is probably a good example of legislation that has been stewarded via successive Governments and involved a lot of conversation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003ENevertheless, the devil will be in the detail and I note, as did our Green colleague Teanau Tuiono, that there is a really large Amendment Paper on the Table to do with electronic monitoring. That is going to take a lot of scrutiny tomorrow. We\u2019ve also got arrest powers, we have search and seizure powers\u2014quite a substantial bill. With all of these bills, the wording is so incredibly important when it comes to statutory interpretation so that there aren\u2019t unintended consequences and so that we know, for example, that we are not casting the net too widely and maybe penalising people who may not have had a choice about coming here\u2014for example, who may have been trafficked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThese are the many questions that we will be asking tomorrow, particularly with the large new amendment that has been dropped on the floor tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229ad9f402f06844c586a6f2f904712412\u0022 data-id=\u002278de7945b6f549bbbee95bd2711b3977\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ad9f402f06844c586a6f2f904712412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278de7945b6f549bbbee95bd2711b3977\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. This bill improves the integrity of the immigration system as well as the fiscal sustainability of it. The changes are sensible and serve New Zealand\u2019s national interests while still respecting individual rights. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022 data-id=\u002262696027d558460bbca9b82c90e1650e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262696027d558460bbca9b82c90e1650e\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s good to be able to take a call on what is actually quite a complex piece of legislation. I wasn\u2019t on the Education and Workforce Committee when this was considered, but I can see from the comprehensive work that has gone into it that it was well-considered at select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EThese types of bills are never easy, and this particular bill, it appears to me, has gone through a number of issues and potential issues in the immigration system and made some pragmatic responses to that. I think the success of this bill will really be, I suppose, in the spirit in which it is enforced. There are a few issues here that have been highlighted by my colleague Phil Twyford that I think the Labour Party will be very interested in looking at the committee of the whole House stage and also once things are in practice. We\u2019ve already seen in this bill that there is a change to a relatively recent immigration change that was brought in in relation to mass arrivals. So this is something that does need to be updated as time goes on, so I\u2019ll just use my time to go through probably the most significant changes that have been brought in in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EThe first one is in relation to the new ministerial powers. Often in immigration cases, visas are only provided when an application is made\u2014to Immigration New Zealand, in this instance. As we do deal with quite tumultuous times around the world\u2014when we do deal with conflict; when we do deal with issues of human rights abuses; when we do deal with international instability\u2014there is a need for flexibility in relation to the immigration system. This particular set of amendments is something that I think most would support in terms of the Minister being able to\u2014in particular instances where there is a particularly compelling case\u2014proactively offer visas to a group of people. I know that this isn\u2019t being unanimously supported throughout the House, but I think that that particular change is one that probably most people would support, so that is good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EThere is obviously a lot of ministerial discretion associated with this bill. Immigration is an area where there is a lot of ministerial discretion\u2014it\u2019s something that is quite unique in terms of the way that Ministers deal with applications. We\u2019ll all know, as MPs, that we often get contacted by people about particular issues, and this is one instance where there is ministerial discretion. Whether that is the best way, personally\u2014this isn\u2019t Labour Party policy\u2014I have some questions around that. I know there\u2019s a lot of pressure on Ministers to deal with very, very difficult personal situations. It is, I imagine, extremely tough to be in that situation and to be making decisions in what are sometimes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220504ffd0c8764223878b08a7b3dfa9c1\u0022\u003EHon Phil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a good system, Camilla.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022587334628b4d4448b192fe9acb0858ee\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014life and death situations. Phil\u2019s telling me it\u2019s a very good system, so I take that back\u2014it\u2019s a perfect system. I\u2019m just empathising with\u2014I know there are a few people in the House who have personally had to deal with this, and I do think it is a particularly complex job\u2014one with great rewards but also great responsibility, and it is unique in that instance. I just want to acknowledge that\u2014and there will be even more responsibility for those Ministers after this bill is passed, so hopefully they will make the right decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EIn terms of the rest of the main changes that I just wanted to touch on: the change around criminal offending is probably a slightly more contentious one. At the moment, there is a way that the courts can avoid the quite dire, in some situations, consequences of a criminal conviction through convicting someone but not entering a conviction\u2014a conviction without discharge? What is the correct\u2014is that right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3ef8929c46a4bce868da3db0cba7f93\u0022\u003EHon Phil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Yep.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d955eddae3a946b1822b255db52d1dac\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. This bill takes that away, and it\u2019s probably more punitive. I\u2019ll be interested to see how that turns out, because that\u2019s one of the possibly more controversial particular provisions. When those particular scenarios get put forward, we\u2019ll be able to see whether, in fact, it is achieving its aims. I can see the policy logic behind that, but I\u2019m interested to see how that plays out, and I\u2019m sure that colleagues will have questions in the committee of the whole House stage about how that will actually not result in what will be a more unfair situation. Anyway, it\u2019s giving power back to Parliament, and that is, in the end, where our laws are made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EIn terms of the cancellation of visas, we did have a particular situation in the past, and I won\u2019t go through all the reasons for that, where individuals who we know are a threat to security\u2014in this particular instance, in Auckland in September 2021\u2014are not New Zealand citizens. There was a lot of anxiety and a lot of, in the end, harm caused by that person, so this is addressing that particular situation. Should it arise again, there are more powers associated with that. It\u2019s very tricky\u2014that is a very tricky situation to determine, especially because perceived harm and risk is always very, very difficult. As I understand it, from what is publicly available information, there was quite a degree of concern around that particular person. We have to have faith that the people who are making decisions around this will make those assessments\u2014and we do, because we\u2019re agreeing to pass this law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EMy colleague Jenny Salesa did talk a bit about the out-of-hours warrants. This is directly related to conduct that was occurring even after the Dawn Raids apology. I also attended that apology; it was extremely moving and very, very sad, so I think that it was a very appropriate thing to make sure that there are more checks and balances in place to ensure that that doesn\u2019t happen. Additionally, I think something that is very, very positive in this bill is the move to address the charging of premiums. We know that this is something that happens regularly in New Zealand. We know that there are sometimes instances where migrant workers are charged very, very large amounts of money, which they shouldn\u2019t be, in order to come to New Zealand. Sometimes they are misled, and sometimes they are exploited, and it is absolutely unacceptable. We should be doing as much as we can to ensure that the migrant workers who come to New Zealand\u2014who we desperately need to do jobs in New Zealand that benefit everyone\u2014are respected and not exploited and not put into debt as soon as they start their life in a new country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b1ea4f1c629450fae792da526a29471\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right\u2014do more about modern slavery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268ec7de90cbd4ca99250d8d35dcd6be1\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes\u2014and I actually have that noted down here, Arena Williams, that we do need to do more in relation to modern slavery. This is a very important area that I think we can all agree we need to do more work on to ensure that the exploitation that people are facing in New Zealand, which is very, very important, is also addressed. So that is very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EElectronic monitoring is something, as I think my colleague Phil Twyford mentioned, that we would be concerned about if it was to become the default measure in dealing with people who are perhaps not in detention\u2014which is good, and that shouldn\u2019t be the default either. There\u2019s also something a little bit icky about electronic monitoring, and we don\u2019t want it to be used to dehumanise people or used in a way that is inappropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EThe last thing I wanted to mention was just about the definition of mass arrivals. This is a very tricky issue. In the end, we did come down on the side of being prepared for this potential context. We know that we are a country of people who arrived here by waka\u2014be that a boat or an aeroplane, we came here from other places. We know that this is a real possibility. We know that we want those people, when they do arrive in a mass arrival, to be treated with the dignity, respect, and humanity that we would expect from the very, very strong cultural concept, between P\u0101keh\u0101 and M\u0101ori, of manaakitanga to people who visit our country. That is an extremely important thing, and we will be watching to make sure that that happens. This is a complex bill; I commend the Ministers from both this Government and the past for bringing it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229a9c205f95fc4f5c8943b440b9f5cb1d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9a2ad011b5143cc8ba9b21503f5c0c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229a9c205f95fc4f5c8943b440b9f5cb1d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9a2ad011b5143cc8ba9b21503f5c0c8\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Well, it\u2019s been a long day which will continue into tomorrow. I just think that sense actually was spoken from the last speaker who made the good point about being prepared for mass arrivals, which, yes, we all hope will never happen, but they just might. It\u2019s really important to be prepared, and it\u2019s one of the main reasons I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272d244757a2e4b979895f65de38131e8\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022476b43fc35984ce4a2aad50bb44b7383\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5edaeb7e39644a49fa54eabd9e1a76c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I had started to take the call. The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022de6feb21f7364a74a068e094ec766dd9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Immigration (Fiscal Sustainability and System Integrity) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11;New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 21\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001541\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022aaf6594e382b4b97a4df7476d97857f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aaf6594e382b4b97a4df7476d97857f3\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for committee stage first thing in the morning. I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Immigration (Fiscal Sustainability and System Integrity) Amendment Bill at 9 a.m. in the morning. The time has come for me to leave the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 11.59 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Friday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511187755a052246841659f9afd4e8d27c0cf001544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226caadd8d911145cbb4bbb54344f1bd83\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 18 NOVEMBER 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f99066329151426292bbdb975418e817\u0022\u003E(continued on Friday, 21 November 2025)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228c9f881351044e04be076a08714a934d\u0022\u003EImmigration (Fiscal Sustainability and System Integrity) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b45ea2bcf9314c7d9e798bf6c431d873\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c2d827c94a0c4531a292ee552d2135ae\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments relating to system integrity\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00224d20bddefe844a5b8b38fca3502b2151\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d20bddefe844a5b8b38fca3502b2151\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Good morning, members. Members, the House is in committee on the Immigration (Fiscal Sustainability and System Integrity) Amendment Bill. We first come to Part 1. This is the debate on clauses 4 to 54, \u201CAmendments relating to system integrity\u201D. The question is that Part 1 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022 data-id=\u00228aa9ec7863ec45d0860ffe77b33fcc95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228aa9ec7863ec45d0860ffe77b33fcc95\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for inviting me to open the discussions about the bill. I\u2019m happy to have the opportunity to talk with the Chamber today about the proposed changes and how they fit with the Government\u2019s objectives and how they fit into our objectives around ensuring regulatory systems work well in committing to action against migrant exploitation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EWe have introduced this amendment bill. It represents a significant step forward in ensuring our immigration system is fit for purpose. The reforms have been shaped by extensive consultation with legal professionals, employers, and immigration experts. More importantly, this bill responds to a couple of very important reviews, the Casey KC review and Michael Herron KC review that were commissioned under the previous Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EIn fact, there are a number of things in this bill that were started under the previous Government. Work was done; it was good, sensible work that we\u2019ve carried on with and has resulted in this bill, which is why I think there is broad support across the Chamber for many of the parts. I look forward to debating the number of points that were raised in second reading speeches yesterday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022 data-id=\u00220f405071b59f479b9eac56c2394e1830\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f405071b59f479b9eac56c2394e1830\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and great to see colleagues here all so bright eyed and bushy tailed, at 9 o\u2019clock on Friday morning. We look forward to a very productive committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EAs I said last night in the second reading, Labour is supporting this bill for two main reasons. We think it does two important things which are significant at this time. That is, it makes an effort in a number of areas to sort of strengthen and put in place some useful reforms in the immigration system that we think will make the immigration system more effective in dealing with the various challenges that it has. But also, it\u2019s important at this point in time, I think, in maintaining public confidence in the system, giving New Zealanders the assurance that through the democratic process they control our borders, and that the system is fair and reasonable and in tune with public expectations. Secondly, it strengthens, in a number of key areas, our adherence to human rights standards through introducing judicial oversight, and particularly in relation to the detention of asylum seekers and in the introduction of electronic monitoring, which, in the immigration space, is a new thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EThere are nine discrete initiatives in this bill and it\u2019s our intention to address all of them. We want to have a good exchange on all nine of those. They are all discrete policy initiatives, and they all demand proper scrutiny through this committee stage process. It\u2019s our intention to work through sequentially each of those nine initiatives and have a good debate and a good exchange on all of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EI wanted to start with the question about the definition of \u201Cmass arrivals\u201D in clause 5. Clause 5, section 9A amended, new subsection(1A): \u201CA group of people arriving on board a group of aircraft are a mass arrival group under subsection (1)(c) if the aircraft arrive within the same 24-hour time period.\u201D This is one of the key elements of this bill: expanding this initiative. The Minister of Immigration, and officials, told the committee that it was in response to some changing international occurrences where there have been cases of people smugglers, effectively, purchasing seats on commercial aircraft. I don\u2019t think we need to kind of rehash the whole mass arrivals legislation that we have now, but it\u2019s designed to expand that definition which hitherto has basically been based on the idea that people would come on a ship or a boat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EWe had quite a bit of discussion about that at the Education and Workforce Committee, and the committee recommended to clarify that people arriving by air on separate services would need to arrive within a period of 24 hours in order to be captured by the definition. That was really to avoid a wide grouping of different, disparate aircraft arriving and somehow that being interpreted to mean a mass arrival.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EIt is worth, I think, digging in a little bit on this question around the definition of a group of aircraft, and I\u2019d be interested to hear from the Minister about how she interprets that and perhaps the officials\u2019 view. Does that mean a group of aircraft have come from the same point of embarkation, same country? Does it mean a group of aircraft where the same people smuggler has booked seats on different aircraft? What precisely does it mean to say a group of aircraft, or is it a group of aircraft that happen to have come just by definition within this 24-hour time period? I think that\u2019s worth exploring and I\u2019d invite the Minister to respond on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u002276abef0150524550be891be21cdd46cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276abef0150524550be891be21cdd46cd\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. We too want to spend a little time on the committee of the whole House stage for this bill because this is quite a technical bill and there are a lot of different parts to it. I want to start with clause 4. I want to first start with the definition of \u201Cfirst available craft\u201D. Now, it is good to see that the Education and Workforce Committee has included a consideration in there for those who have applied for either judicial review or a tribunal determination. I think submitters are right to point out that the previous version, of the person having no further rights\u2014which is paragraph (b)\u2014is problematic, particularly if someone does have those live applications going through, which will be inconsistent with section 27(2) of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019m interested to know from the Minister of Immigration is that, in this part, the person has \u201Capplied for leave to bring judicial review proceedings within 28 days after being notified\u201D, but, if you look at the website, particularly the Ministry of Justice website, it allows for not only the person being notified but also a representative of the person being notified\u2014because, for example, when you apply for judicial review, particularly in these cases, often it won\u2019t be just simply the person; they could be a representative of the person, a lawyer, an immigration adviser, etc., etc. I\u2019m curious to know why, despite what is on the Ministry of Justice website, the bill itself doesn\u2019t allow for a representative being notified. I do want to ask the Minister to consider my amendment, which also includes that a representative of the person also be allowed to be notified, unless the Minister is able to confirm that in clause 4(1), under (aa)(i), the phrase \u201Cafter being notified\u201D also implies a representative of the person\u2014in which case, everything is covered, and that\u2019s fine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI want to now speak to my second amendment\u2014and second point\u2014which is still under the definition of \u201Cfirst available craft\u201D. Now, we\u2019re looking at under paragraph (d), which is \u201Cthe deportation or turnaround of the person from New Zealand will not contravene section 164\u201D of the principal Act. Section 164, essentially, talks about limitations on deportation. I want to check with the Minister: if section 164 is mentioned, why is section 166 not mentioned, which also has limitations on deportation? In this case, section 166 is a limitation on deportation for diplomats. Does that mean that section 166, for example, will never be, in any instance, captured by this bill or by this definition? Again, if the Minister could clarify, that will help, but I do have an amendment on that, if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind considering it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EFinally, I now want to discuss the definition of \u201Cirregular entry into New Zealand\u201D, and I have another tabled amendment on this. This is paragraph (f), which is \u201Cthe person has been assisted to enter by smugglers\u201D. Now, I\u2019m hoping that the term \u201Cassisted\u201D implies that the person would have been, I guess, smuggled voluntarily, as in they agreed or have agreed to be assisted by the smuggler. That wording is vague and, potentially, could be arguable; so it\u2019s just a very simple amendment, which is that \u201Cthe person has been assisted to enter by smugglers willingly\u201D, as in it is not involuntary smuggling or human trafficking. Again, I ask if the Minister is able to clarify that. There is an amendment, but if the Minister is able to clarify that it is satisfactory, we can leave that amendment. Those are my three questions to start with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc8e6a6e27ab4a2d9951965f20375e58\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc8e6a6e27ab4a2d9951965f20375e58\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. In the House last night, we had quite a good debate and I think it\u2019s very clear that all sides of the House want to uphold the human rights and liberties of the people who, unfortunately, find themselves as asylum seekers. There was a bit of a divide. Interestingly, National and Labour agreed that this legislation is useful to uphold that, and I think the Greens thought it was a bit of a response to a moral panic situation. But what is very clear is we all want to uphold these human rights. As the previous speaker, Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan, has said, much of the devil will be in how this is interpreted in the courts, because this is, essentially, a system that is put in place to enable, hopefully, quite a streamlined judicial process so that there is fairness and certainty for the people involved. That is why it\u2019s really, really important that we get the wording right and we don\u2019t have unintended consequences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EI think this debate may be longer than the Government might anticipate, not because we don\u2019t agree, but also because there is a 44-page amendment on the Table regarding electronic monitoring. Now, that is a good thing and I\u2019m really pleased to see that the Minister of Immigration has responded to the Education and Workforce Committee, but that will take some analysis because when we\u2019re talking about electronic monitoring or any other form of warrant or detention or judicial review, we\u2019ve got to get the wording right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EI, too, will now turn to Part 1 and raise some other issues that have not been raised. One of them is in terms of section 4(aa)(i), inserted by clause 4(1), where it talks about judicial review. The reading of subparagraphs (i), (ii), and (iii) don\u2019t quite make sense when read altogether. I have not got an amendment on the Table, but I\u2019m wondering whether the Minister would be minded to simply strike out of the subsection, to leave out \u201C(ii) applied for leave to bring judicial review proceedings after the prescribed time;\u201D. It does not seem to add anything and it actually adds confusion to that paragraph.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EIn terms of the evidence for leave to bring judicial review proceedings, it would be good to know what level of proof is required for that. In section 4(aa)(i) when it says, \u201Cor within any further time allowed by the High Court\u201D, that looks like a drafting constraint on the ability to take a judicial review, and I find that concerning. I wonder if the Minister could comment on that. Does she see that as a restriction of the rights available to those who would be affected by this clause? Would she be minded to take that out if it meant there was more certainty for that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EWhen we look to the next part, section 4(a), the question I have is around the words, \u201Cthe identity of the person is unknown\u201D. There are questions about whether that is a judiciable and objective test. The reason is it\u2019s not very clear. We don\u2019t know if that\u2019s somebody who\u2019s unable to get documents. What is the threshold of the identity of the person being unknown? Is it an absence of documents? Is it an inconsistency of documents? Is it a failure to be able to get the documents verified by a recognised New Zealand institution such as a District Court judge? How do the words interact with the refugee convention, especially Article 31?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EMy suggestion\u2014I haven\u2019t had time to do amendments, but I wonder if we could extrapolate that out to something like instead of saying the identity is unknown, just to suggest that there are three elements to that: there are no documents, and/or inconsistent documents, and/or those documents are unable to be verified. It is important because I have had constituents that I\u2019ve dealt with who have been seeking asylum in New Zealand, coming from places like Syria, where there is a real question mark over the veracity of documents. We know that they are authentically seeking asylum, but the documents take a while to catch up. Some clarity around that would be really important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to ask the Minister about the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act (BORA) and how any work that she has done\u2014I assume a BORA report was done, but what are her views around how this all interacts with section 27 of the BORA regarding their rights to natural justice? Also, the processes for enabling access to courts and legal counsel, because if there isn\u2019t access to justice then potentially, even though on the face of it this bill might look like it is upholding the BORA rights, it would be restrictive in terms of liberty rights under section 22 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act and limiting rights on arrest or detention for those seeking asylum under section 23.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll go to questions now, but there are supplementary questions to ones that are raised by the Hon Phil Twyford and that is the meaning of \u201Cmass arrival\u201D. It\u2019s a good intention and it is tricky. One of the questions is a legal question about whether individuals can have their right to be treated individually under the rule of law observed if they are deemed to be in a mass arrival. That raises issues of legal, procedural fairness, such as whether they can get individual legal advice, independent advice, and interpreter services when necessary. What are the safeguards around that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EI do wonder if an easy and elegant way out of that\u2014again, I don\u2019t have an amendment; I\u2019d be prepared to write one\u2014is to simply add a bit of a mens rea element into section 9A(1A), inserted by clause 5, so that there is a common purpose. If a common purpose is attributed into that clause, I think, then, we don\u2019t have to get into the granular kind of input evaluation of which flights they were on and when they caught them and so on. The very fact that there is a common purpose would capture the mens rea and would enable our officials to be able to do their job for the intended purposes of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EWhen we\u2019re looking at a group arriving on an aircraft, it would avoid making assumptions about things like mixed airlines, mixed routes, connecting flights, whether it\u2019s from the time they boarded the aircraft, whether it\u2019s the time that the aircraft took off, what happens if there are delays\u2014all of those are really prescriptive and tricky. It would just be much better to have a deemed mens rea element in there. There could be a reasonable element or whatever; I\u2019m sure the drafters would know the best way to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThe other thing I question is just the fairness about whether planes or boats are going to be treated differently, and, if so, how does that then interact with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act in section 19, the non-discrimination of asylum seekers? We are now making a discriminatory reference of those who arrive by air versus those who arrive by boat. Has there been some analysis done to make sure that is in accordance with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThere are some operational things, I think, too\u2014I\u2019m nearly done, Madam Chair\u2014which are just around families being separated. We\u2019ve got this magic number of 31, and I wonder what unintended consequences there might be if families are trying to separate themselves across different means of transport in order to circumvent the law, if that would be something that we would want to disincentivise because they\u2019re already in a traumatic situation. The idea of children and parents coming in separately worries me. I also worry whether it will discourage people from seeking asylum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EFinally, just questions about the operational capacity at our airports. Has any work been done? It\u2019s all very well having the legislation here\u2014and I do think it\u2019s a good piece of legislation. Do we have confidence that our airports and our staff at airports and our systems at airports will be able to deal with a large number of people coming in? We haven\u2019t had to do that before in the circumstances, as far as I\u2019m aware. We had the Tongan case, but I think that those people had already been processed and then were not able to leave, so that\u2019s quite different. What impact would there be on airports? Those are my questions just for those first clauses, clauses 4 and 5. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f94ff8fa185d46af91be0db93de68726\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f94ff8fa185d46af91be0db93de68726\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m just going to take a couple of those. Some of the amendments have only just been handed to me and have only just been printed, so I\u2019ll deal with those later. But in relation to the definition of a group of flights\u2014and it\u2019s pretty clear in the bill that it\u2019s just flights arriving within a 24-hour period\u2014there\u2019s really no other definition that you need. \u201CHave they arrived in the last 24 hours?\u201D is the definition in the bill\u2014it doesn\u2019t matter where they came from\u2014and \u201CAre there 31 people?\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EIn relation to Ingrid Leary\u2019s questions, some of them are a little bit out of scope. The definition of a \u201Cmass arrival\u201D is not part of this bill\u2014the overall definition. But the only change is \u201Carriving on a flight\u201D, and the question about the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act and whether it is discriminatory with them coming on a flight rather than on a vessel or a boat, is an odd question. It doesn\u2019t matter how they arrive. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s got anything to do with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, which way they arrive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EJust in relation to the identity threshold: essentially, if we don\u2019t know who they are, then we don\u2019t know who they are, and it doesn\u2019t matter if it is because the documents are fake or because they don\u2019t have documents, or for any other reason. Once you start prescribing those things in the legislation, the unintended consequences are that it is too descriptive and we get ourselves all caught up. If we don\u2019t know who they are, that is the definition of it that we\u2019re using, and I don\u2019t think it\u2019s a good idea to start defining in law the types of conditions around whether or not we believe their documents or that they don\u2019t have documents, or anything else. There\u2019ll be unintended consequences around that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022 data-id=\u0022ddadb5fefbd84be8aa42d8f53a8e1949\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ddadb5fefbd84be8aa42d8f53a8e1949\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Acknowledging that this is my first call and, as the immigration spokesperson for the Green Party, I just wanted to first note that one of the things that this bill does is that it does broaden who is liable for deportation, right? That\u2019s also really important to make\u2014even so, there are some components that we can, critically, get behind. It\u2019s important to note that this bill isn\u2019t about manaaki-ing people who are fleeing horrible conditions, but it also contains some contested components.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EI wanted to focus on clause 4, on the definition of \u201Cfirst available craft\u201D, which has a new point that hasn\u2019t been addressed yet. Now, if I look at the principal Act, we do have a definition for \u201Ccraft\u201D, and that is \u201Cany form of aircraft, ship, or other vehicle or vessel capable of being or intended to be used to transport any person to or from New Zealand from or to any country outside New Zealand\u201D. Now, the reason why this definition is important, in the context of clause 4, is because, effectively, it creates a set of conditions for when the person is liable for deportation, that they are able to be put on that first available craft.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003ENow, because \u201Ccraft\u201D captures such a broad range of vehicles, I did want to ask the Minister of Immigration as to why she didn\u2019t choose to use the language \u201Caircraft\u201D; and that is because we\u2019ve heard a lot of the terms of preparation under this bill. Is the Minister preparing to use other types of vehicles? Currently, for all the constituents that I have dealt with, aircrafts are the primary vehicle in which people end up being deported by; but the language that is used here\u2014\u201Cfirst available craft\u201D\u2014captures boats, for example. Is the Minister intending to prepare to utilise other forms of vehicles to, effectively, deport people; if so, what work is she doing to prepare for that? Or does the system already have capacity to deport people in other forms of crafts other than aircrafts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EI recognise that, when it comes to the definition of \u201Cmass arrivals\u201D in clause\u00A05, like, we have captured aircrafts as a form of arrival. I know that in the other debates we have had in relationship to the Immigration (Mass Arrivals) Amendment Act, basically, we did mostly assume that people will be arriving by boat. But we haven\u2019t really interrogated whether the Government has any resources to deport people in any form of craft that is not an aircraft, or whether that is even the intention of the Minister, because we have used a lot of language in relationship to preparation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EI do have some questions more broadly on clause 8, and then one of my colleagues will want to unpack some stuff in clause 5 as well, and potentially clause 6. But in the interest of being able to scrutinise the bill adequately on clause 8\u2014this is the amendments to section 52, and I look at new subsection (4A): \u201CThe Minister may, by special direction in relation to a class or classes of persons holding temporary entry class visas,\u2014(a) impose further conditions on the visas,\u201D. Now, I know that there\u2019s a set of requirements that the Minister may need to consider when making those decisions around imposing further conditions. Would the Minister be able to elucidate for the House as to in what incidents would she see the need to impose additional conditions\u2014potentially restrictions\u2014on a group of people? We have been told this is about preparation, but I don\u2019t think we\u2019ve received clarity as to the scenarios in which you would need to impose additional conditions on a group of people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EI think that would be particularly important for the Minister to clarify, because I know that, for other components of the bill, which will be scrutinised later, the Minister and other members of Parliament have referenced the horrific attack that happened in New Lynn as a justification for some provisions in other parts of the bill. But I don\u2019t think a specific example has been used to justify the potential need to impose further conditions on visas for a group of people, and so I am interested to hear the Minister\u2019s justification for that specific clause\u2014that\u2019s clause 8, specifically new subsection(4A).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not so much seeking debate on the set of criteria the Minister needs to consider, but more about the potential scenarios in which that specific clause would be utilised, and whether there\u2019s precedent in which the Minister would have liked to have a provision that allowed her to impose further conditions on visas and a group of people that created the need to build in this specific clause. To recap, I\u2019m interested to know about whether the Minister has other types of vehicles and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022081bd848da4b497099c2ddc1d99da5d5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We don\u2019t need the recap. The Hon Phil Twyford\u2014oh, sorry, we\u2019ll come back to you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022 data-id=\u00226bf6ac2793b8463b8dd35836f0a3dd92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226bf6ac2793b8463b8dd35836f0a3dd92\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to get these out of the way, if I can\u2014one by one, if I\u2019m able to. In terms of the previous speaker\u2019s questions around \u201Ccraft\u201D, there\u2019s a long-held definition in the Immigration Act, and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279553c475b204e34b70710ac580699cc\u0022\u003EHon Phil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: Minister, could you speak up a bit? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbb2de1256cd4d438356f15cd298e538\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry. There\u2019s a long-held definition in the Immigration Act of \u201Ccraft\u201D. Of course, we usually put people on the most direct, humane, fastest, and first available craft, which is usually an aircraft. But you could imagine that if somebody lived on a Pacific Island who needed an airline and then a boat, we would want to do that, and so it allows those options. It\u2019s relatively well-used terminology that allows us to do the thing that we need to do to get the person home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EIn terms of his second question, there are a couple of things that the member was mixing up, I believe, but, essentially, the ability for the Minister to be able to grant either visas or conditions on visas is around special circumstances. I\u2019ll note that when the powers were available under COVID, it was used about 50 times, and since then, we\u2019ve had situations arise like when Vanuatu airlines got into trouble. We had recognised seasonal employer workers who were stranded here, and we had to individually go and either grant or change conditions on people\u2019s visas. Look, if something similar like that happened in the future and we wanted to be able to allow people to stay here, we might have to change the conditions of their visa to allow them to work or to study. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EIt has to be for their benefit, which is the main part of this bill, which is very important. It limits the powers of the Minister. It has to be in the favour, or not to the detriment of the group of people, but allowing conditions to be altered means that we are able to allow people to do things like go and work if something overseas has happened and they can\u2019t get home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EThe other issue I think he might have been potentially mixing up was the actual person like Samsudeen. What this bill is talking about is that there is a condition where, with those people, we can cancel their residence class visa when they are a threat to national security. So those two things are separate. I\u2019m not sure if that\u2019s something the member was getting confused about or not, but the important part of this section around the protections and the limited power of the Minister is always to make sure that whatever are the changes made, conditions imposed, or visas granted, they are in the favour of the people who are being affected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022 data-id=\u00229a8b4043d4d04c55ad776bb39c337191\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a8b4043d4d04c55ad776bb39c337191\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you. I do want to ask some questions about Subpart 2, but before I do, I just wanted to go back to clause 5, amended section 9A on the definition of mass arrivals. I want to just be absolutely clear or try to get absolutely clear that a group of aircraft\u2014group, in this context, if I heard the Minister of Immigration right\u2014means only that this is more than one aircraft to arrive within the 24-hour period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee385fd3532f4848b0b53a13c34876f7\u0022\u003EHon Erica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248559443801843d09ad60a530d1293df\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: So they don\u2019t need to have any other connection in terms of the people-smugglers that might have booked the tickets or the place where they came from? It simply means aircraft that arrived within the 24-hour period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267a55d22c1834d48b00317e78944d559\u0022\u003EHon Erica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289582cb5b1a04f87adcfb858b8a00178\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister\u2019s nodding that\u2019s the case. OK. As a lay person, I would say that is pretty confusing drafting to refer to them as a group of aircraft. They are simply aircraft that arrived within the time period. But, anyway, we\u2019ll leave that to the courts once this becomes law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EI wanted to just really comment and ask some questions around these new flexible powers that arose out of the COVID experience. Labour supports these provisions and it\u2019s clear that a lot of thought\u2019s been put into putting some protections and some guardrails around the use of them: the reporting back to Parliament transparency provisions, the requirement that they must only benefit and not disadvantage the people they apply to, and so on. I\u2019m interested in, though\u2014this is a significant power to be conferred on the Minister and the Government. One of the most important guardrails is the definition of the circumstances in which these powers might be used. The use of the word \u201Cunusual\u201D in clause 7, amended section 50(4B)(a).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003ENow, it\u2019s kind of a paradox, because if you make it really broad, then you\u2019ve got maximum flexibility. The more you define what \u201Cunusual\u201D might mean, the more you limit the potential application of these and therefore defeat the intent. But I would say that in clause 7, amended section 50(4D)(a)(iii), this becomes almost comical, where one of the circumstances where these special directions could apply is \u201Cany circumstance that is outside the Department\u2019s control:\u201D. Now, the department is very powerful and controls many things, but to say \u201Cany circumstance that is outside the Department\u2019s control:\u201D pretty much means any circumstance that the universe might offer up. The effect of that is that there is no limit on the circumstances under which these powers could be used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EI would invite the Minister to share with the committee the kinds of\u2014we know some of the historical examples where these powers were used, but what future kinds of situations does the Minister anticipate these powers would be used under and how does she interpret the words \u201Cany unusual circumstance\u201D in clause 7, amended section 50(4B)(a) and (4D)(a)?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022 data-id=\u002281168ce91bd54243b5a30605b1bd988f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281168ce91bd54243b5a30605b1bd988f\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I really appreciate the call, and I wanted to follow on from the Hon Phil Twyford in terms of Subpart 2 and the amendments. The reason why I ask the questions of the Minister of Immigration is to really understand the whole component around human rights, and also the applications that I have seen come through not just in my office but in the Auckland region, where there are many Pacific communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022\u003EMinister, following on from the Hon Phil Twyford, I really wanted to understand, firstly, the advice that you have received from officials with regards to your flexible powers. One of the reasons I ask, Minister, is because, in my office in M\u0101ngere, which has a high population of Pacific, we have a range of families and communities who come and talk about their immigration circumstances. What I wanted to understand, Minister, was around the word \u201Cexceptions\u201D; the test that will be used or the advice that you have received particularly around safeguards. Sometimes there have been scenarios where there have been specific events beyond New Zealand\u2019s control, we have had individuals, like with the volcanic eruption in Tonga, but also some of the Recognised Seasonal Employer scheme workers. Then we have had a scenario where Pacific families have been through the immigration system and they have been successful getting visas but the temporary visa time has run out, and, in some scenarios, there is no person back in that Pacific country. They\u2019ve gone to Immigration New Zealand to get the tests and what is required to satisfy and justify the request.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022\u003EI am asking in terms of the advice that the department has given you, because sometimes when my office or I have sought advice from immigration officials or the department\u2014it\u2019s not that it\u2019s conflicting, but it\u2019s different and varying. For people who may not have a background in tertiary study, for the terms that are used by immigration officials, sometimes there\u2019s different understandings. It would be really helpful, Minister, if you could explain that. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022 data-id=\u0022159c63f8823f4e699adb78c7a2f7fbcd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022159c63f8823f4e699adb78c7a2f7fbcd\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Right, those questions are all very similar around the types of situations that we expect to happen. Let me run through some examples that were given to me in the advice that I was given: situations where New Zealanders overseas wish to repatriate their families quickly in response to a conflict, like in Ukraine; the collapse of Air Vanuatu, which we\u2019ve already talked about, which stranded Recognised Seasonal Employer scheme workers here; education institutes folding; a large labour-hire firm going into receivership with serious implications for migrant workers; and, of course, the volcanic eruption in Tonga. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EI think the member made a great point in her previous question around the fact that it is very difficult when we have to individually deal with people who then have to go and get information and put visa applications together, especially if they\u2019re running out quite quickly. We don\u2019t want people to be here not on a valid visa. The ability for us\u2014like the previous Government did under COVID\u2014to be able to quickly and swiftly deal with those situations to make sure that those people have valid visas, whether or not we have to extend conditions, change conditions, or grant new visas is what this bill is asking this House to approve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003ENow, there are a number of safeguards, and that was the other question asked by both members. As I\u2019ve already said, it has to be to the benefit of the people who we are dealing with, but the use of powers would be subject to many safeguards including the overarching safeguard that they can only be used to their benefit, or at least not to their disadvantage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EWith regard to the class of special directions, the Minister would be required to certify that they consider that it\u2019s reasonably necessary to exercise the relevant power or powers, and that they have consulted appropriately. The class of special directions are time limited, they must be published, they can be challenged by the Regulations Review Committee, and their use must be reported to Parliament each year in the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment annual report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EThere will be a report back to Cabinet no more than three years after the powers come into effect, to identify whether or not there have been any unintended consequences, and, if so, what further legislative adjustments should be made. There are a number of safeguards in this to limit the power of the Minister, but, as you can see, there are a number of\u2014as the member rightly pointed out\u2014situations where we need to act swiftly to the benefit of those people, to make sure that they are here on valid visas or conditions that are suitable for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae766d05df2f42e88b93868d1518f41c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae766d05df2f42e88b93868d1518f41c\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you so much, Madam Chair. I just wanted to follow up on an answer that the Minister of Immigration gave me, and I appreciate the engagement on that specific question in relation to \u201Ccraft\u201D. She used a very specific example of using a plane and then a boat, but then the boat wouldn\u2019t be the first craft; it would be the second craft.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EI genuinely ask this because the first available craft would be so broad that I generally just want to ask: have there been cases in which the first available craft has been anything else other than an aircraft\u2014as in, the first vehicle that people are being put in?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EMy colleague and I worked on an amendment that we\u2019ve just tabled, too, and this is why I wanted to just go back to it, because we just wanted to put an amendment to make sure that the first available craft\u2014so if people need to be put in a boat or a vehicle afterwards, kei te pai\u2014isn\u2019t anything other than an aircraft. I think, to me, that is really important to clarify in legislation so that if the Minister genuinely intends to say the most humane craft available, that it is an aircraft and not, say, a boat that may not adequately protect the wellbeing of people or may not contain humane conditions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003ENow, going back to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290b9783160d340309f046440fee19238\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Could I just ask the member to clarify the reason for that question, because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf44812d6d064a96aa8a3136bd23355e\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: Because we just tabled an amendment to strengthen that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b6e7294500e4858b86bdd47fe5c560f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014there could be a wide range of circumstances. Could you just flesh that out a little bit as to why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9385748b18d4b0cbb72eecdf0e8f506\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: Why aircraft? Because as far as I\u2019m aware\u2014and this is why I\u2019m seeking the Minister\u2019s elucidation\u2014that is currently the only form of vehicle that is currently being used. If the Minister is able to provide examples in which the first point of leaving is being made by anything other than an aircraft, that would be useful. We\u2019re happy to rescind our amendment if the Minister can explain why the first point of exit could be made or has been made in the recent past by anything else other than an aircraft.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EAnyway, going back to clause 8, amended section 52(4D)(b)(ii). This is in relationship to the one that says \u201C(b) the Minister considers that the exercise of the power to make the special direction in the particular situation will (ii) not disadvantage the class or classes of persons to whom it applies;\u201D. Now, I know that the Minister said that the intent isn\u2019t to disadvantage groups of peoples when these now new powers are being made. I know that the Minister used the example of the Recognised Seasonal Scheme workers during COVID-19, but can I just confirm with the Minister, in relationship to how this is drafted, the language so far says \u201Cconsiders\u201D, but you could, in theory, just consider it and then, none the less, move ahead with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EWhat safeguards are put in place so that it\u2019s not just a matter of thinking about it, considering it, as opposed to requiring, but it does not disadvantage the class or classes of persons to whom it applies? I could see that perhaps not this current Minister but a future Minister could use the language as written to say, \u201CWell, I have considered it. I have taken that into consideration and, none the less, I\u2019m varying the conditions of a group of people or visas to potentially limit, for example, who they can work for, where they can live, how many times they can come back and forth into the country.\u201D I wanted to ask about the specificity of the language of \u201Cconsider\u201D versus, for example, that those powers must not be used to disadvantage someone. That\u2019s quite a different line of consideration that the Minister would then have to make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EWhy did the Minister go ahead with \u201Cconsider\u201D, as opposed to \u201Cthese powers must not disadvantage the class or classes of persons to whom it applies\u201D? Again, as much as I want to believe in good faith that the intent isn\u2019t to, can the Minister just clarify how will a future Minister who would seek to restrict or disadvantage groups of migrants can\u2019t simply just consider it and then go ahead with it and use those powers anyway, since this doesn\u2019t necessarily bind the Minister to not disadvantage a group of migrants?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8208d72d0334b3293d2e010ac6e412a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8208d72d0334b3293d2e010ac6e412a\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Look, in relation to that last part, the member is really grasping at straws. It\u2019s very clear it has to be to the benefit of the group of migrants. I\u2019ve been very clear that there are a number of checks and balances. There is a disallowable instrument. In fact, it has to go through the Regulations Review Committee and can be struck out if there\u2019s anything that is not according to the regulations. I don\u2019t think there\u2019s anything more to say on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EGoing back to the issue of a craft\u2014again, very minor point. We\u2019ve not been able to think of any time\u2014that\u2019s not to say there isn\u2019t, but my officials can\u2019t ever remember a time\u2014that the first available craft was not a plane. Especially out of New Zealand, because we can\u2019t put people on a train out of New Zealand or anything. But we don\u2019t want to limit ourselves in the case of something that we can\u2019t think of right now, but there\u2019s some kind of emergency where we need to use a helicopter, for example. We don\u2019t want to limit ourselves. But as far as we can see, the first available craft has always been an aircraft. But it would be very limiting if we were to use just the aircraft, and then if some other situation came up and we needed to humanely get someone on a craft and that craft was not an aircraft, then that would be very limiting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u002245d9b99cead84491b81abe290dad6901\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245d9b99cead84491b81abe290dad6901\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to check\u2014unless I haven\u2019t heard it\u2014the Minister of Immigration hasn\u2019t responded to my earlier questions regarding my amendments, particularly for the definition of \u201Cfirst available craft\u201D. But I\u2019m going to move on and just\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2795a9ebeb341dc849f3a4333274b58\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The number of the amendment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e80d52e98a34f6d9d3aefd7e8caa35a\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry the definition is the part which says \u201Capply\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271cef1663d9449bda514ae7ad6767a17\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: No, the number on your amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227439a3aedca746859752ff1d84b83bf4\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the number of my amendment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a05fcfc5670c476c9a8ab2966ea588ca\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022324ea3233acc415fbca64fb4242e03fa\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: OK. It is\u2014let me just check\u2014the amendment that was tabled at 8.40.03.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279a9ff4509b54c7aaaa12ee80fce3374\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269383229cfac4d43b0b019c965719064\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. Thank you. Apologies, Madam Chair. I just want to clarify with you clause 7, 8, 9, and 10 pertains to four different types of visa circumstances, but the drafting itself is largely comparable, so I will be drawing from different clauses from each one because I have an amendment for each of those clauses. So, for example, to start with, I want to talk to my amendment which is around clause 7, amended section 50(4E); clause 8, amended section 52(4E); clause 9, amended section 43(4E); and clause 10, amended section 57(6), because for all of those four clauses, the drafting is identical, so my amendment is the same but they are four different visa classes, if that makes sense. So bear with me. For all four, it talks about the type of special direction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ENow, I want to just check with the Minister because I do think that the issue my colleague Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March raised is a good one, because, for example, in new subsection(4D) in any of those clauses 7, 8, and 9, you would see that the Minister \u201Cmust\u201D certify, not that the Minister certifies. Therefore, if you look at new subsection (4D)(b) that my colleague mentioned where the Minister \u201Cconsiders\u201D, it doesn\u2019t have the requirement of \u201Cmust\u201D, so it doesn\u2019t have that totality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EMoving on to my amendment, one of the issues that was brought up is with clause 7, amended section 50(4E); clause 8, amended section 52(4E); clause 9, amended section 43(4E); and clause 10, amended section 57(6)\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ec107ae0f47445d98cf364f255de383\u0022\u003EHon Erica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Which amendment number, sorry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234b9024836524ae0a3adfcdfe5e177e7\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, OK. Let me\u2014oh, sorry, this is going to take a little while. It\u2019s the amendments tabled at 8.40.09; 8.40.15; 8.40.21; and 8.40.26.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EIn here, the recommendation is\u2014because any decision to issue a special direction under the proposed amendment would be at the absolute discretion of the Minister and would lack the degree of transparency that\u2019s normally expected of legislation that will affect a large number of individuals, but also the proposed power, effectively, to allow the Minister to vary otherwise applicable provisions of the Immigration Act itself. My amendments for these four sections, essentially, have a commencement date of no less than 28 days after the direction is made. Now, rather than saying that commence in accordance with section 378(3), which is, in fact, immediately, if it\u2019s not published, I think a default 28-day intro period would ensure there\u2019s adequate notice of any special direction given. I do agree with the Minister that there\u2019s a lot of really good safeguards in here, but I just wanted to add a little bit more because of the fact that the regulatory-making power the Minister has under this bill for these two separate visa classes can be quite substantial and affects a substantial number of people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ENow, the second thing I want to mention is my tabled amendments tabled at 8.40.10; 8.40.16; 8.40.22; and 8.40.27. These are also for clause 7, amended section 50(4E)(c); clause 8, amended section 52(4E)(c); clause 9, amended section 53(4E)(c); and clause 10, amended section 57(6)(c). The reason I put in this amendment is that I understand when, with (b), you can commence\u2014I will finish this call; sorry, Madam Chair\u2014even if it\u2019s not yet published; however, (c) says it must be published together with an explanation of the effect of this special direction. But what isn\u2019t there is when that needs to be published. So, for example, in any of these, like clause 7, inserting new section 50(4E)(d), it says \u201Cmust specify\u2014(i) its duration, which can be no longer than 6 months\u201D. I did like the fact that there is a sunset clause; I think that\u2019s a really good safeguard. But, for example, does that mean without a specific timing for publication, that the Minister could, in fact, publish after the duration or after the special direction is no longer in effect? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EMy amendments for these four clauses are just to ensure that while the Minister may consider commencing immediately and delay the publication, the publication should still take place within 14 days. Those two are my two groups of amendments\u2014so I have eight in total.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a89d2ef3f91b49ac97facf6e678cd2e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a89d2ef3f91b49ac97facf6e678cd2e0\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Right\u2014I\u2019ll speak to two of Lawrence\u2019s amendments just to say we won\u2019t be supporting them. The amendment at 8.40.03 a.m. we will not be supporting because it\u2019s inherent that \u201Cthe person\u201D includes their agent or their representative, and that is clear in the legislation. In terms of the amendment at 8.40.05 a.m., you talked about the difference between the diplomatic pathway and not. You can imagine that taking steps to deport diplomats is a very complicated process with lots of concerns, so we have to deal with those separately, and we won\u2019t be supporting that one either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EGoing back to Ingrid Leary\u2019s comments from earlier about whether airports would have the capacity to manage a mass arrival: mass arrival group provisions are explicitly to enable people to have access to interpreters and lawyers, and the framework is to ensure the system can manage\u2014that\u2019s the whole point of the mass arrivals legislation. If we didn\u2019t have that, then we wouldn\u2019t be able to cope, and officials have operational planning in place to respond to a mass arrival by air or by sea. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary asked, \u201CWhat is irregular entry?\u201D This language is used in the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) guidelines on detention of asylum seekers and is really clear\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275c42987037f4ca29b81f005cbabc572\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Chair. I\u2019m really appreciating that the Minister is answering the questions, but it\u2019s really difficult because of the speed and quietness. For a back and forth, I want to be able to digest what she\u2019s saying, but it\u2019s so fast and so quiet. Could we just have it a little bit slower, please? It may bring more into the debate\u2014I\u2019m not sure\u2014but this is an appreciation that she is answering the questions, and we need to be able to hear the answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275486f3677f9427ca017093b029907ec\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: OK, so \u201Cirregular entry\u201D is language used in the UNHCR guidelines on the detention of asylum seekers, so it\u2019s very clear. She asked: is the bill consistent with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act? Yes, the Ministry of Justice gave a clean vet to the bill, and, as I\u2019ve already said, it\u2019s not a prohibited form of discrimination to distinguish between modes of transport. I already made that clear, but officials have confirmed that as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002242b5ebdb6f674431af475c66a771f231\u0022 data-id=\u00222a4d1276f00047b487b5372e767d711b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242b5ebdb6f674431af475c66a771f231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a4d1276f00047b487b5372e767d711b\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Madam Chair. Now, I do just want to jump forward a little bit in the bill. Just recognising that there are probably clauses that I\u2019ll be skipping past that other colleagues are going to want to interrogate, but this is a particular piece I\u2019m quite interested in asking the Minister of Immigration about. So that\u2019s clause 13, which inserts new section 75A, which is the cancellation of a residence class visa of a person threatening security. So what I note is that this bill does create a power for the Minister to cancel the residence class visas of individuals who pose a threat or risk to security but who cannot currently be deported. So, for example, there could be substantial grounds for believing that that person would be at risk of persecution, and it then requires the Minister to grant them a temporary visa. This provision arose out of work that was done by the Labour Government after the terror attack in a West Auckland supermarket, which happened in September 2021. That was Ahamed Samsudeen. He had refugee status and residence, but he had been identified as an extremist and a risk and he couldn\u2019t be deported because of his protected refugee status. What it did is it exposed the lack of tools that a Government has in dealing with somebody who is a risk but also can\u2019t be deported because of their protected status under international law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242b5ebdb6f674431af475c66a771f231\u0022\u003EI have some questions for the Minister on the basis of this, because it does call into question a few, I think, technical challenges, and challenges around how this operates in practice. The first is that it is a significant new power being given to the Minister; my question is why are there not some more accountabilities around it, for example, an appeal right for that person? The affected individual also has no meaningful opportunity to test this information or to appeal against that decision on the basis of the facts or on humanitarian grounds. There\u2019s also a question around, given the seriousness of this, whether it might be wiser to have a judicial warrant, as opposed to a decision by the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242b5ebdb6f674431af475c66a771f231\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s also the situations where someone may be deemed a risk to national security but also has children. They have their residence visa cancelled, but they have children. This presents challenges when Government really should also be considering what is in the best rights of the children and other family members. Has the Minister considered the best interests of the child in terms of this particular decision?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242b5ebdb6f674431af475c66a771f231\u0022\u003EOne of the questions I\u2019ve got, though, which I think is a really interesting one for the Minister, is that the time frame on this\u2014could a person, essentially, end up in a state where they were having a continued rollover of a temporary visa and what rights does that grant them? Then what does the Government actually do about the security risk component? So you could envisage a scenario where somebody has their residence class visa cancelled, they continue for the remainder of their life to have a risk of persecution which means they\u2019re not able to be returned to their original country. That could be 20, 30, 40, 50 years of a person having a continued rollover of a temporary visa, but then there\u2019s also the challenges to New Zealand\u2019s security, which are genuine, because we now have somebody on a temporary visa who doesn\u2019t have the rights of a resident to potentially access things like healthcare support that might actually be the type of intervention that\u2019s needed to support this person to no longer be a security risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242b5ebdb6f674431af475c66a771f231\u0022\u003EI can absolutely appreciate, and we can appreciate as the Labour Party, when somebody\u2014and this particular scenario was an example where real harm was caused and further harm could have been caused. We\u2019re not denying that there is a risk posed by this person that they\u2019ve been deemed to be a security risk, but likewise there\u2019s a genuine situation for that person\u2019s ability to not be persecuted and potentially killed on return to their home country. It puts a real conundrum around the situation. Those are my questions for the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242b5ebdb6f674431af475c66a771f231\u0022\u003EJust recapping them: why is there no appeal right? Why not consider a judicial warrant, given the significant legal things to consider? What is the scenario when someone has children? What is the scenario when someone has a temporary visa continually rolled over? Then, what does that mean for both monitoring that person, and provision of support so that they can actually have some potential behavioural change? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022 data-id=\u002286674c8d254b4ac79711dc9a61e4e7a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286674c8d254b4ac79711dc9a61e4e7a6\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Look, in relation to those questions, there is the ability of the person to have a judicial review and that is the process. In terms of where I will get a judicial warrant to do this, that is not the case with Immigration New Zealand at all. It always is the executive power of the Minister in all of these cases. This is not an unusual situation to have people rolling over on visas. The Hon Phil Twyford will remember, probably, as his time as the Minister, signing off many rolling visas of people that are protected, people that we can\u2019t return that we will not give residence to. It\u2019s sort of a parallel example, but we do that relatively regularly with people that we don\u2019t want to give residence to but we can\u2019t return home because they\u2019re protected people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EThis is slightly different in that we are revoking their residence and putting them on rolling visas, but the point is that unless the situation changes in their home country, they will be here with their children and with their family on rolling visas. It is not an unusual situation for us to be doing this. Immigration Ministers have been doing it for a long time in that very unenviable situation where we have somebody that has either committed a crime in New Zealand that we do not want to give residence to but we can\u2019t return home, or in this new instance where we are revoking someone\u2019s residence because they are a threat to security but keeping them rolling over on visas. That has always been the power of the executive and the Minister and it\u2019s not been considered to be required to get a judicial warrant. That would be outside of anything that we\u2019ve ever done in any similar situations and we won\u2019t be doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EJust going back to Lawrence\u2019s questions around the Minister\u2019s powers to grant visas or to change conditions of visas. As secondary legislation, there\u2019s already publication requirements in the Legislation (Publication) Regulations. That already exists. Also, section 378 of the Immigration Act enables the Minister to revoke any special direction if it\u2019s no longer needed. Given this is to the benefit of the people who are affected, it will be known to them and we will be publishing it. We have to; it\u2019s a statutory requirement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad0c61da79084fe68162c60c9077ea98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad0c61da79084fe68162c60c9077ea98\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Further to the Minister of Immigration\u2019s responses to the questions from my colleague Rachel Boyack, there are three points I wanted to touch on further with this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EUnder the provisions of this bill, having revoked the resident visa of someone who is deemed to be a threat to national security, the Minister is required then to issue a temporary visa. Now, if the Minister was, in that circumstance, to issue a visitor visa, the person in question would not have access to paid employment or the kind of income support that they otherwise would be able to get from the State if they were on a work visa\u2014or at least not to the same level. The reason I raise this is that I think that if the Minister were to do that\u2014to deny the person the potential to have a livelihood and to feed themselves and their family\u2014we would be in serious breach of our international human rights obligations, and yet that scenario, I believe, is open to the Minister under these provisions. I would ask the Minister to comment on that. What sort of guard rails are there if the Minister does issue a temporary visa, and what obligation is there on the Minister to ensure that the person in question can sustain a livelihood while they\u2019re in New Zealand? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003ESecondly, I wanted to say something about the point that Rachel Boyack raised about how this is a sweeping executive power. Giving the Minister the right\u2014I think it\u2019s under section 163 of the Immigration Act\u2014to certify that someone is a threat to national security: if you go and look at section 163, you\u2019ll see it is a very broad provision. I\u2019m not questioning that it\u2019s inappropriate, because I think New Zealanders would expect a Minister, in this case, and the Government of the day to be vigilant in protecting the national security of New Zealanders. From my perspective, that\u2019s accepted\u2014that\u2019s a given\u2014but it is important that in exercising this sweeping power, there are some safeguards and controls. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EI wanted to ask the Minister whether she got advice and whether she considered\u2014well, I know she told Rachel Boyack that she didn\u2019t accept or consider the need for a judicial process. The reason that I think that is worth considering\u2014and my intention is to table an amendment on that in the course of this debate; requiring a judicial process\u2014is because I asked the House to cast its minds back to the Ahmed Zaoui case. Ahmed Zaoui had his immigration status revoked; he ended up languishing in a New Zealand prison for a considerable length of time on the basis of advice from our police and security agencies that was, for a long time, not tested in court. He was not given the opportunity to address and respond to the evidence that was used as the basis of the Government\u2019s intervention\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022519d6dc608c64c79aba1420bb8d4dfa8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ded21f9ee4054282ad9262ec6fd2ab96\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Which is now widely discredited.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224eec218762b4631b268a44987ad3153\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: That evidence was subsequently discredited. I think that the Ahmed Zaoui case is a pretty powerful story of why we should think very carefully about enshrining this sweeping power for the Minister of the day to simply certify\u2014through secondary legislation\u2014that a person is deemed to be a risk to our national security. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EI have a third point that I wanted to make that may take a little bit of time, Madam Chair. This goes to the heart of what this provision is trying to achieve. Everyone, I think, can see that when someone is assessed as a threat to national security, they\u2019re a protected person under international law, so they cannot be deported. If they weren\u2019t protected, and they were a threat to national security or they had committed a crime, they would be deported. In this case, it puts the Government of the day in a very difficult situation, as the Samsudeen\u2014[End of five-minute call]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a02fd49f55724db4b0f4a16f9e6aa421\u0022\u003EHon Members:\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6bea552cf714684b0e51ab9f6ad650d\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair? I haven\u2019t finished, Madam Chair; I\u2019m in the middle of my point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e727a6ca12904938801eed334d190e82\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270a3c9b5e88b4a63aa8d112ceb0898fa\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Calm down\u2014calm down! The Hon Phil Twyford, you did give me notice that you were going to run out of time, so I was prepared to roll this over.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256793faa448749b8937ba9b40ec3a60d\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. The effect of this bill is that it gives the Minister the opportunity to strip someone of their resident status. The question is: is that intended to be punitive and some kind of deterrent so that it will deter the person in question from staying in New Zealand, for example, because it\u2019s harder for them to live because they don\u2019t have access to social services and so on? If they then face the possibility that if conditions in their country improve\u2014say, like Syria has, for example\u2014does it mean that they could face being returned to their country of origin, and that acts as a deterrent? Does the Minister see this as, essentially, punitive, and has the Minister considered whether or not this is a way of the Government of the day having some leverage to sit down with the person in question and work out some sort of deal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EThe reason I raise this\u2014and I wanted to share an experience that I had as the Associate Minister of Immigration when immigration officials came to me one day and said, \u201CThere\u2019s a person here who is about to be released from prison. They have protected person status, they cannot be deported, they have mental health and addiction issues, they have been in prison for several years, and they were in prison because they committed some pretty serious violent offences against their family members.\u201D This was a really difficult conundrum. This person is about to be released into the community\u2014there was no way to keep them incarcerated\u2014and so we had to consider what to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EAfter some head-scratching and working together, we were able to put together, effectively, a deal where this person got a temporary visa that enabled them to access income support and social support in return for residential reporting requirements. They had to check in with their local police station regularly; they had to enrol for rehabilitation services and English language training and deal with their mental health issues. It was a pretty concerted effort to try to get this person to rehabilitate themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003ENow, that was a very unusual sort of situation, and I\u2019m glad to report that a year later, that person turned up at my electorate office to tell me that they had rehabilitated and reconciled with their family members. I know from subsequent contact that person has done remarkably well and is living happily in the community with their family and is in paid employment and is now speaking English quite well. The reason I raise that is that I\u2019m interested to know whether or not the Minister and her officials see that sort of facilitated community engagement strategy as a possibility, or do they simply see this provision as being punitive and designed to deter someone who\u2019s seen as a threat to national security and encourage them to leave the country as soon as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022 data-id=\u002253e4f5b7bf054650823d1c427f6c7819\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253e4f5b7bf054650823d1c427f6c7819\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I think it\u2019s just worth remembering the types of people that we\u2019re talking about. The case that kicked off, under the previous Government, the work they did was the Samsudeen, where there was a threat to national security; the person was under 24/7 surveillance because of the serious threats of harm to New Zealanders. It places us in a very difficult position when people are protected and we can\u2019t return them home. But what we can do, and I think what the Opposition agrees with, is that we can revoke their residency status. The point of that is so that if things change and their situation changes in their home country and at some point they can be returned, we can then deport them. We would obviously have to go through a system where we would need to remove their protected person status, but remember these people are a threat to national security. Let\u2019s remember what happened in the Samsudeen case. There is always the option for a judicial review, but this is a practical and pragmatic thing that we can do so if things change; we are able to remove people from this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003ENow, the previous Minister also talked about the Ahmed Zaoui case. I just want to make very clear, that was very, very separate. It was dealt with at the time. There was a raft of changes that were made to the Immigration Act at the time around that case, to put guard rails in place; special provisions around the use of classified information. That is out of the scope of this bill, but that was dealt with then, so those things are not relevant to this case. This is simply about making sure that someone who is a risk to national security\u2014someone like Samsudeen\u2014if the situation in their home country is to change, then we have the ability to remove them from New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8b1241bfd8548fbb490f5448b90626a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8b1241bfd8548fbb490f5448b90626a\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u00228f75b778bf9840a798be2e2ca7fb3bc0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f75b778bf9840a798be2e2ca7fb3bc0\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Not quite there yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022918ad6a3b6b6476fb0f38015b4b7bb21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022918ad6a3b6b6476fb0f38015b4b7bb21\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to be very specific in my contribution. I want to speak to, I think, 11 of my amendments. I want to start by first going to the amendment that is tabled\u2014let me just find it again\u20148.40.13 and 8.40.19. Now, the reason I raise these two\u2014and this is clause 8, amended section 52(4A)(a), and clause 9, amended section 53(4A)(a)\u2014is that these impose further conditions. I\u2019m recommending that if the Minister of Immigration wouldn\u2019t mind considering from \u201Cimpose further conditions\u201D to \u201Cvary conditions\u201D. The reason I say that is the Minister has rightly before said that a Minister will consider the exercise of power that benefits a class and not disadvantage. But I can\u2019t think of an instance where imposing further conditions will actually benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235af7f24a88241138649246f7d35f2ae\u0022\u003EHon Erica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: I can give you one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e918484dba9c4a0e974f164313a57f98\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh. In that case, I will stop there and the Minister may be able to respond to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EMy next group of amendments is amendment tabled 8.40.12; 8.40.13; 8.40.17; 8.40.18; 8.40.23; 8.40.24; 8.40.28; and 8.40.29. Now, these are groups. Again, the Minister would, no doubt, be aware that I have a special interest when it comes to regulatory-making powers and potentially some of the checks and balances that are involved when it comes to regulatory-making powers. For both of these two clusters there are, essentially, two main recommendations I want the Minister to consider. I want to thank the Minister as well for clarifying in terms of the publication requirements; that\u2019s very helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EWhat my proposal is\u2014the first one is around that section 378 of the Immigration Act is not applicable to the special direction under various subsections (4)(a) and also (3) of section 57, amended by clause 10. Now, the reason for that is because the absolute discretion that is granted in section 378(8) of the principal Act should not be applied to these special directions. This will actually help the transparency and accountability of the decisions made using these new powers and enable those decisions to be more easily reviewed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThe second one is to put in a review clause with any regulatory-making power. Again, I understand there\u2019s a sunset clause, which is fantastic, but I\u2019m seeking the Minister\u2019s support on new subsections for each of these: a new subsection (4)(f) and subsection (7) of section 57, amended by clause 10. This, basically, is just making sure the Minister may review the effectiveness of the special directions under clause 10, amended section 57(4)(a), at any time and must review it no later than three years after commencement date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ENow, the reason for that is any decisions to issue special direction under the proposed amendment would be at the absolute discretion\u2014and, also, like the transparency, the proposed power also allows the Minister to vary otherwise applicable provisions. But having this provision in place would just mean that we\u2019re able to have some review on that. I\u2019m noting\u2014I note this is a different section\u2014that later on we do see in the new section 399AC, inserted by clause 56, that there is a review clause on secondary legislation under regulatory-making power. Even within this one amendment bill, we have seen my amendment being adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI want to move on now to clause 18\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7440653a69b42ae9b488fd623e4c4ef\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Which we haven\u2019t touched on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265c331f5c2c845449547de40b6561a75\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014which we haven\u2019t touched on. This is a really significant section, because clause 18, amended section 161(1AA)(1), is something that many submitters, including legal experts, have raised to be a serious concern. This is where we\u2019re now changing the wording from \u201Cconvicted\u201D to \u201Care convicted or found guilty of, or plead guilty to\u201D. Now, this broadens the scope of this particular bill, especially for those who have pleaded guilty but not been convicted\u2014i.e., those who have pleaded guilty or even been found guilty but are acquitted by a judge are now going to be considered under this clause, which is really, really broad. I just seek a tiny bit more time from you, Madam Chair, just for me to finish this one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EWe don\u2019t really agree that maintaining the status quo undermines the integrity of the immigration system. The court already has the ability to consider\u2014Madam Chair, I\u2019ll just finish this amendment\u2014whether deportation liability should be an appropriate consequence of the offending. The current framework has, to date, struck an appropriate balance between the interests of the affected person, the public interest, and the integrity of the immigration system by enabling the court to address low-level criminal offending, where appropriate under a well-established sentencing structure. But also noting that if a person is acquitted under this, they\u2019re still considered found guilty, which means they\u2019re captured under this new clause. The safeguard is provided under the section 206 test of the Immigration Act. A person who is in that situation would be unlikely to meet the section 206 test of the Immigration Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EMy proposal and my amendment here\u2014that is amendment tabled 8.40.30\u2014is making a recommendation that we keep the status quo of keeping it to \u201Cconvicted\u201D, and delete the mentioning of \u201Cfound guilty or plead guilty\u201D, just so we don\u2019t get ourselves into a situation where there is a gap between section 206 of the Immigration Act and what we already allow people, by their right, under the Sentencing Act of acquittal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022 data-id=\u00222dec874793c74f1f91c9bc41a674b865\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222dec874793c74f1f91c9bc41a674b865\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E OK. There\u2019s a few things there. Firstly, imposing conditions\u2014you asked for an example. If you had a group of people here who are here on visitor visas, and their flight or their airline collapsed or something happened in their home country like a volcanic eruption, we would impose a condition that they would be able to work. We\u2019ve been over this a number of times now and I\u2019ve already made that clear, but one more time I\u2019ll make it clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EThere is already a review period, as I\u2019ve already mentioned, built into this. There will be a report back to Cabinet no more than three years after the powers come into effect, to identify whether there have been any unintended consequences, and, if so, whether we need to make further legislative adjustments. Something is already built in to make sure that we are\u2014again, I\u2019ve mentioned that already.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EI want to talk, though, about this next part of the bill that the member raised, around ensuring that the decisions around deportation stay with Immigration. We have a process in Immigration whereby if you do something that makes you liable for deportation, there is a process that you go through. It goes to a delegated decision-maker, it may end up with the Immigration and Protection Tribunal, but there is a process. Circumnavigating that process is what\u2019s happening at the moment, where judges will discharge without conviction to avoid people having to potentially be deported\u2014not actually deported. Just because someone is liable for deportation doesn\u2019t necessarily mean they are deported, and, in many cases\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237a078a484754300beb1543eb61dd558\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: But that\u2019s the discretion of the judiciary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b5fe62ad70c40b4a713b7c6a79e42ba\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014just have a listen\u2014they are not deported, because of the process. Many times, if it is a first offence and it is minor and they are liable for deportation, it will go to a delegated decision-maker at Immigration New Zealand and they make the decision, on many occasions, not to deport. But if they do make the decision to allow deportation to happen, then there are still other avenues for those people to go down, including the Immigration and Protection Tribunal and, of course, the Minister. There is an established system that already exists. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EBut what we are finding that is happening in the courts is that\u2014and there\u2019s an argument being made that \u201COh, well, look, this poor person may be deported, not actually will be, but might be.\u201D, and now that process is being circumnavigated. Now, the first thing is that is not something that is open to a Kiwi. If a Kiwi was to go before the courts, they don\u2019t have the same ability to say \u201CI need a discharge without conviction because I might be deported.\u201D\u2014so not available to a New Zealander.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003ESecondly, I just want to give the member\u2014and I mentioned this in the Education and Workforce Committee: the types of cases that we are seeing are things like, and I\u2019ll give you an example of one, the person had two counts of assault on a person in a family relationship; he punched his pregnant wife in the stomach, the outcome was that the convictions and the sentence of 220 hours community service was set aside, discharged without conviction. Now, there is already an established process to work out whether or not someone should be liable for deportation. It sits under the Immigration Act, it always has, it\u2019s being circumnavigated, it should sit there. We are being very clear in this instance that if you are guilty or found guilty or you plead guilty, then the deportation liability still exists. What it does is put that process back where it belongs, which is in the established process in Immigration, through a delegated decision-maker, through the Immigration and Protection Tribunal, or through the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EBut it\u2019s in our view\u2014in the Government\u2019s view, which is why we brought this amendment\u2014that it should run through that process and it should not be circumnavigated by a judge who is discharging without conviction in these cases, to avoid the process; not necessarily. Let\u2019s be really clear about that: deportation may not happen, and the judges are circumnavigating that, effectively, and we want to make sure that it runs through the same process; the fair and established process that already exists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u002264245f2a9c6941519ec6135a7fea8239\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264245f2a9c6941519ec6135a7fea8239\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I take the next call, I\u2019d just like to note, members, please: the scenarios are consuming a huge amount of time. The committee of the whole House is to see and have issues and questions addressed relating to the bill. Can we just bring it back a little bit tighter to relative questions on the parts in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbeaacfef455461ca92d711d93669f31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbeaacfef455461ca92d711d93669f31\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you so much, Madam Chair. I just wanted to clarify to the Chair, one of the reasons\u2014in particular, for clause 13\u2014why some case studies have been brought forward is that, for example, in clause 13 we have seen one case study being used\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3be0aa52e4342958b1ca453619a2151\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: You are doing it already, Mr Ricardo.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022346bd85a2a25459887c8178dc887d05c\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: No, just noting. What I\u2019m seeking clarification from the Minister of Immigration is: how many people have been deemed to be a threat to security that the Minister would have not been able to strip away residency from that now she will be able to strip residency from as a result of clause 13? I\u2019m seeking, actually, clarification on how many people would this clause actually seek to capture.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EThe other question I have was that I would like to seek clarification in the language, because people asking questions and giving answers use the term \u201Cnational security\u201D. Now, in this clause and in the principal Act, the language of \u201Cnational security\u201D is not used; it\u2019s just \u201Csecurity\u201D. It\u2019s \u201Cthreat to security\u201D, not \u201Cthreat to national security\u201D. Those are actually quite different things. Can the Minister explain what she would mean by \u201Cthreat to security\u201D? I do think it\u2019s dangerous to use the term \u201Cnational security\u201D when that is a term that\u2019s used for quite serious things, as opposed to \u201Cthreat to security\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003ENow, my other question in relationship to clause 13 that has not been canvased is why did the Minister not choose to include a requirement for her to consider whether the person had received, for example, adequate support? For example, mental health support, access to counselling, etc. At the end of the day, we know, from the examples that the Minister herself has referenced, that, in those cases, there was a lack of access to mental health services. I\u2019m interested to know why that wasn\u2019t built into clause 13.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003ENow, on clause 18, I have also a question in relationship to how many people the Minister currently would be deeming to capture. I\u2019m sure and I hope that she received advice around, for example, how many people on temporary visas would have been found to be guilty or pleaded but not convicted over, say, the past 10 years. I think, to me, this is important for the Minister to clarify to the public what group or population we are talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EI hate it when the Minister or anyone uses the term \u201Cthose people\u201D. Who do we mean by \u201Cthose people\u201D? I hear from the Chair that she doesn\u2019t want us to bring examples, but the Minister did just that when, in her contributions, she used one quite extreme example of somebody punching a pregnant person as a justification for this bill. That is why I\u2019m asking on clause 18: how many people in the past, for example, 10 years, five years\u2014even in the past year\u2014have been found to have been guilty or pleaded guilty but not convicted, and therefore not liable for deportation that she now would like to seek to capture?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EWhat nationalities are more likely, if we take a sample over the past decade, to be captured as a result of clause 18? Again, it\u2019s simply not good enough for the Minister to use terms like \u201Cthose people\u201D without telling us exactly the range and the scope of people that would be captured. Surely, when designing clause 18, she would have said, \u201CThis is a systemic issue.\u201D; not an issue of one specific example that would have not been dealt with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EThe second question on clause 18 that I have\u2014because the New Zealand Law Society rightly pointed out that the Immigration and Protection Tribunal (IPT) process can often be insurmountable for people. Can the Minister give us assurances that she may be exploring additional resourcing to, for example, entities or advocating for resourcing for entities like Community Law to make sure that the potential increase in IPTs being lodged as a result of clause 18 will be able to be dealt with in a way that doesn\u2019t just become this supposed process that people can follow but, actually, in practice, is completely insurmountable for people to lodge an IPT to be able to challenge the liability of deportation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EI just really want to encourage the Minister to stop using the term \u201Cthose people\u201D and give us the numbers of how many people she wishes to capture in clauses 13 and 18 specifically, so that we\u2019re not just actually further marginalising communities. Ibrahim Omer, a former Labour MP, rightly pointed out, when the attacks in New Lynn happened, that he did not want to see asylum seekers and/or other groups prejudiced by what happened there. Yet we are seeing exactly the same thing under this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022 data-id=\u002299ba0d35515a48df82b0bed4c191593c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299ba0d35515a48df82b0bed4c191593c\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Just in the spirit of speaking more slowly\u2014which I am trying to do\u2014if that member could also just slow it down a bit. Take further calls. It\u2019s just really hard to keep up, especially when you are merging and mixing two different issues; it is hard. I\u2019m just asking for you to slow down a wee bit and be really clear about the different things you\u2019re speaking about, because there are two different things that were merged in here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EThe first thing was around the case where we have a protected person that we would like to strip of residency because they are a national threat. You asked about the numbers. Now, at this point in time, I\u2019m advised that there isn\u2019t anyone that we would have on our books. However, this is future focused. The Samsudeen case was huge, it was distressing, and it was difficult for people in New Zealand to fathom that there was, at the point in time, nothing that we could do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003ENow, the previous Government, to their credit, worked on this. It was very difficult and very tough in the case of a protected person. This is something that we can do and I think we both agree that we should do, but it is future focused. We don\u2019t want this sort of case to happen again, where we sit there and go, \u201COh, well, there\u2019s nothing we can do.\u201D There has to be something. This is something that we can do. But I can confirm with the member at this point we\u2019re not aware of anybody.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EIn terms of\u2014and this is the second that was mixed in slightly, and this is around the numbers of the people who are being discharged without conviction on the grounds that they may be deported. Look, we don\u2019t have exact numbers, but what is being reported to us, especially down south and in Queenstown and in the southern area of New Zealand, is that it is happening more and more. The case numbers are huge and so this is why it is something that\u2019s been brought forward because it is being circumnavigated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EI just want to draw the member\u2019s attention to the definition of a security threat. It\u2019s defined in section 4 of the Act: terrorism, espionage, foreign interference. It\u2019s very clearly defined in the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022 data-id=\u002294bb8e32e6c84a0d976200163f756c3e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294bb8e32e6c84a0d976200163f756c3e\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you. I do note that colleagues on the Government benches are getting a bit antsy and taking closure motions. I just wanted to say that there are nine discreet and substantive parts to this bill. So far, we\u2019ve covered off the cancellation of residence class visas, we\u2019ve covered off the new flexible powers of the Minister to benefit classes of persons, and we\u2019ve dealt with the definition of mass arrivals. But can I just draw the Chair\u2019s attention to the other substantive parts that we haven\u2019t got to yet. We\u2019re currently talking about deportation and criminal offending\u2014Subpart 5. We haven\u2019t yet got to Subpart 7, on out-of-hours warrants. We haven\u2019t yet dealt with charging of premiums\u2014clause 47. We haven\u2019t yet dealt with the very important Subpart 8 on the warrants of commitment for asylum seekers, nor clause 41 on electronic monitoring.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e9d3bb7928348ed87891ec36ac99cde\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: This is your chance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214cd43b1d7714a6989f2808760504496\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. And I\u2019m just wanting to say to the Chair, who\u2019s only recently joined the session, these are very\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c3eb774573d495cb83d6368e79601e7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Have been watching since 9 a.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c97f79d29754f92bbbc3b9ce9d9709e\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: OK. These are very substantive parts. If I may say, there\u2019s been very little repetition, and we\u2019re having, I think, some pretty good dialogue. I just wanted to say that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EIn relation to Subpart 5 on amendments relating to deportation, I do think this is an important issue. I wanted to ask the Minister\u2014really in response to concerns that were raised by a number of submitters at select committee, including the Law Society of New Zealand; concerns that the change undermines legal certainty and fairness, and it erodes judicial oversight and due process protections. I wanted to ask the Minister whether she\u2019d considered whether this change would undermine the current potential advantage from an early guilty plea that it risks incentivising more defended trials, with flow-on effects on the justice system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EThe regulatory impact statement (RIS) notes that there is no data to support this change. I wonder whether or not the Minister can, subsequent to the RIS, offer us any data that supports this change. The RIS also frames the amendment as enhancing public confidence in the immigration system. I wondered whether or not, again, there\u2019s any evidence to support that suggestion. The amendment would, effectively, nullify the deliberately conferred discretion vested in sentencing judges under sections 106 and 107 of the Sentencing Act, which allows judges to consider the broader context, mitigating factors, and the personal consequences of a conviction. In light of all that, did the Minister seek advice from the Ministry of Justice on this matter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022 data-id=\u00220dbdd82861904210b4c923d2a4b69a72\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220dbdd82861904210b4c923d2a4b69a72\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E There is still the discretion of the judge to discharge without conviction if he so wishes. But, essentially, the process that is being eroded is the process that already exists under Immigration New Zealand; the established process where delegated decision makers and the Immigration and Protection Tribunal have absolute full information about a case of a person who is liable for deportation. That is not the same when you have that situation with a judge and it is circumnavigating another process at Immigration New Zealand where all of the relevant information around someone\u2019s deportation liability is considered. It\u2019s a long-held established process that sits under the delegation of the immigration process. It is being circumnavigated in far greater numbers than it ever has been without that full information. The amendments that have been put forward on this will not be accepted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u002265e73a0ed9c643809e76ad748b7ae662\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265e73a0ed9c643809e76ad748b7ae662\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Minister, for your response previously. I want to move on to a new clause. I\u2019m looking at clause 32, new section 317AA. I\u2019m specifically looking at new section 317AA(4), which is around threat or risk to public order. I want to refer the Minister of Immigration to my amendments at 8.40.31, which is to delete this section\u2014for the definition of threat or risk to public order, delete \u201Cfailing to comply with this Act.\u201D Now, the reason I\u2019m bringing this amendment to the Minister\u2019s attention is that I think neither the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees guidelines on the applicable criteria and standards relating to the detention of asylum seekers and the alternatives to detention or Victoria Casey KC\u2019s report on restriction of movement of asylum seekers identified failing to comply with the Act as a factor which justifies detention, because there\u2019s a specific section on that. Both publications say that a short-term detention may be justified where there are threats to national security or security or public safety or there are genuine real risks of absconding. Absconding, I agree, is an important part, but failing to comply with the Act isn\u2019t. That\u2019s my amendment to the Minister if she would consider removing that particular part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThe next part I want to talk about is actually in her Amendment Paper\u2014so Amendment Paper 445\u2014which has just been tabled yesterday. Part of that is to introduce new clause 40A and new clause\u00A040B. My tabled amendments to the Minister\u2019s amendments are tabled at 8.40.32 and 8.40.34. Now, the reason I tabled these two is mainly just to note that there is, I guess, potentially a gap or oversight\u2014unless the Minister is able to clarify\u2014that when you are looking at new section 324B(3), which is where you\u2019re making an application for release on condition, for both non-claimant and claimant, what\u2019s missing there is consultation or input from the person through the application process. The application, according to new section 324B(2) and new section 324C(2) is an immigration officer may apply. So my two amendments, basically, are addressing the fact that there\u2019s nothing that actually says the person themselves should be involved. My amendment is just to insert new subsections, which are (3)(bb) to the Minister\u2019s clause 40A, amended section 324B(3)(ba) and clause 40B, amended section 324C(3)(ba), which must include input from the person during an application process, such as why they believe they should be released on condition or whether, for example, they believe certain conditions, such as electronic monitoring, which the previous speaker has spoken about, should not apply to their release. This is a suggestion by the Law Society as well, so it just ensures that natural justice principles are upheld.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI think that is my three amendments that I want to engage with the Minister on at this stage. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee6ab8ece84a4c13a05b30cdf4399570\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee6ab8ece84a4c13a05b30cdf4399570\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, we\u2019ve had two of those\u2014I\u2019m just waiting on the third one. But in terms of 8.40.34, the person will have legal representation so they\u2019ll be able to present the views of the person to the judge. There\u2019s no reason for that amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EYou asked in your amendment, amendment 8.40.31, around why we need the part around\u2014you want to remove the bit about failing to comply with the Act. For an example, failing to comply with the Act might be failing to comply with the terms of the RRRA\u2014the residence and reporting requirements agreement. That is very important and that is one of the things that would be failing to comply with the Act, which is why we won\u2019t be accepting that amendment either. I\u2019m just waiting on 33.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6cbcb308d5440ee83a0e704b4bb0b17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6cbcb308d5440ee83a0e704b4bb0b17\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to speak to Subpart 7, the provisions that require immigration officers to obtain a judicial warrant prior to conducting out-of-hours residential compliance visits, otherwise known as dawn raids.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EThe purpose of these provisions is to ensure that immigration compliance powers, when they\u2019re exercised outside of normal hours, are reasonable, proportionate, and in the public interest. Labour strongly supports these changes. They arose out of the Heron review that our Government initiated in response to the revelation\u2014around the same time as our Government made the Dawn Raids historic apology, in fact\u2014that these visits were still going on. It signals, as I said earlier, a departure from more punitive models of immigration control and we appreciate that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EI wanted to ask some questions of the Minister of Immigration about whether or not specific provisions were considered to ensure that out-of-hours visits are a measure of last resort. The bill doesn\u2019t do that, so I wonder what consideration has been given to ensuring that the way that these powers are implemented through procedures and policies and operations will ensure that is in fact the practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EI also wanted to refer to some tabled amendments from Vanushi Walters, my colleague, who has moved the following proposed amendments in clause 43 to add the following words in new section 324J(3)(d), if given prior notice, unless there is a compelling reason not to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1a572b827fc4d07a869c5637d6fab04\u0022\u003EHon Erica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Is there a number on the top of that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ce6d357878e4120a17ff306f2fdc7a3\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s 10.46.00. That wording, I believe, would have the effect of ensuring the obligation is on putting it in primary legislation to put the obligation in a much clearer and starker way, that this is to be only carried out when all other avenues have been exhausted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EAlso, Vanushi Walters\u2019 tabled amendments 10.46.01, in clause 26, to include a new section that reads \u201Cinclude an assessment of whether the proposed entry and search is compliant with international and domestic standards\u201D. Third, another amendment by Vanushi Walters, clause 26; the amendment is time stamped 10.46.02. This would insert a new clause that would add disabled persons and pregnant persons, new section 293B(3) and (4), inserted by clause 26\u2014so consider the potential impact of the proposed entry and search on anyone else who may be present in the dwelling or marae, including children, elderly persons, disabled persons, pregnant persons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EThis is really about ensuring that the way that these powers are exercised would be consistent with our human rights obligations, and I hope that everybody in this House is highly sensitive to the history of the Dawn Raids and the importance of these powers being exercised in a way that is sensitive to the legacy of trauma that was from the aftermath of the Dawn Raids. Yeah, I\u2019ll leave that there. Looking forward to the Minister\u2019s response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e726218a6cd449e6b2055f7859814ed2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e726218a6cd449e6b2055f7859814ed2\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E OK, going through those one by one, the first thing the member was asking about was the process and the safeguards in doing an-out-of-hours compliance visit. As the member knows, in this bill the warrant has to be signed off by a judge. The judge needs to make sure that the actions are proportionate, that all other avenues or possibilities have been exhausted, and they do need to take into effect whether or not there are vulnerable people or children or situations in the household. There are plenty of protections in the issuing of that warrant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EGoing through the amendments one by one: time stamped 10.46.00 from Vanushi Walters. The intent of this amendment has already been met through the Government\u2019s Amendment Paper, requiring reasonable notice to be given in writing. The amendment at 10.46.01; the amendment\u2019s not necessary as the domestic standards expressed in the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act reflect international standards. At 10.46.02, and this is around the disabled or vulnerable persons: these are included within the wording \u201Cother vulnerable persons\u201D and do not need to be listed separately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb5d7492184a4549a4d47b6e4a2f186c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb5d7492184a4549a4d47b6e4a2f186c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: As long as we are moving along, I\u2019ll call Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022 data-id=\u00227f861e6046fe42dfb673286a4aed6f59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f861e6046fe42dfb673286a4aed6f59\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I wanted to speak to my amendment 23.20.07. This is in relationship to clause 42, in relationship to release on conditions. I know we\u2019ve started talking a little bit about the provisions on electronic monitoring. I wanted to seek clarification and then, potentially, support for my amendment. The way that I see the legislation being written in clause 42 in relationship to release on conditions and, basically, amended section 324F(1)(da) \u201Ca condition requiring the person to submit to electronic monitoring\u201D, I wonder whether, for the avoidance of doubt, she would want to make sure that the language specifies that it is an adult? The intent of this is to not have children being subjected to electronic monitoring. I did want to just ask whether she thinks that the language in clause 42 was adequate to just capture it as \u201Cperson\u201D, or whether it is her intention to subject under-age people to electronic monitoring, per the provisions in that clause? Clarification around that would be particularly useful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EIf she\u2019s able to both clarify that she does not intend to subject children to electronic monitoring, and, if so, just for the avoidance of doubt, change the language to \u201Cthe adult\u201D as opposed to \u201Cthe person\u201D would be really, really useful. I think this is particularly important because we\u2019ve seen that there are other provisions and other clauses that enable immigration officers, for example, to get equipment and therefore there will be those interactions between immigration officials and the people subjected to electronic monitoring. I cannot see a particular benefit of\u2014well, it would be good to understand if the Minister thinks there is, if any, a benefit of having an under-age person being subjected to electronic monitoring, and, if so, what are those? Again, seeking support for my amendment 23.20.07 and clarification of under-age people subjected to electronic monitoring.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022 data-id=\u00223af8974da82a4978823d40944d1c51c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223af8974da82a4978823d40944d1c51c2\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I wanted to speak to Subpart 8, which, to my mind, is one of the most important parts of the bill, because it implements the, I think, more or less sort of final stages of the implementation of Victoria Casey\u2019s\u2014Casey KC, as the Minister has been saying\u2014long list of recommendations that she made. I have a particular identification and strong attachment to this work. I was the Associate Minister when the report was done by Amnesty International and the Asylum Support Seekers Trust. With the support of Kris Faafoi, the Minister at the time, we asked Immigration New Zealand to commission Victoria Casey. I will note, for the record, that in discussions with officials, Immigration New Zealand, stoutly defended their track record and said that there was nothing to see here and that Immigration New Zealand\u2019s practice in this area was entirely consistent with New Zealand\u2019s international obligations. Victoria Casey found the opposite to be true. That was an interesting moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022342059ae4d0245869fd5a19a012154fa\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: And your question is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299ddac0440c848b6aa4ce93cac588a11\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the question is, really, that Victoria Casey delivered a pretty solid reform agenda. I think there is good cross-party support for all of this implementation. But the Minister, with this bill, hasn\u2019t implemented all of her recommendations. In relation to clause 27, irregular arrival is excluded as the sole basis of detention, but the bill doesn\u2019t expressly rule out things like administrative convenience or immigration compliance objectives; why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EVictoria Casey also recommended, in line with United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) guidelines, that detention be reviewed within 48 hours and that maximum time limits be established. The bill retains the four-day initial detention period before judicial oversight; why is that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EThird, why doesn\u2019t the bill prohibit the detention of asylum seekers in corrections facilities? This was one of the strongest recommendations by Victora Casey. The Amnesty International investigation showed how traumatic and dangerous it was for asylum seekers to be locked up in the Mt Eden remand facility. There were many examples of trauma and violence and abuse that asylum seekers were subjected to. Given how the Government set up managed isolation and quarantine facilities during COVID, which could be guarded by security guards in a way that was secure, surely there is no need to retain, as this bill does, prisons as a detention facility of last resort for asylum seekers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EFurther, UNHCR told the Education and Workforce Committee that child refugees should never be detained for immigration-related purposes and that families with children should never be separated from their families in detention. I\u2019ll ask the Minister: why did she not support that advice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EIn light of all that, I wanted to speak to my tabled amendment to clause 27, which makes a number of proposals. It proposes to insert in amended section 310(1) a new paragraph (f) \u201Cany use of the powers of arrest and detention may only be exercised as a last resort, acknowledging that liberty is the default position\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cef02746ffd944b3a8a4b32e50ec3fa1\u0022\u003EHon Erica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: What number? Sorry, Phil.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf0314cdf57849bdb12bf71788593e2e\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry, I don\u2019t have the timestamp on that particular one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003ENext, a new paragraph (g): \u201Cthe powers of arrest and detention may not be used for purposes not expressly permitted by the Act\u201D. Further, new paragraph (h): \u201Cany use of the powers of arrest and detention must receive judicial review within 24 to 48 hours of the initial detention\u201D. That would bring us in line, I believe, with UNHCR guidelines. New paragraph (i): \u201Cany continuous detention must be reviewed independently at intervals of no longer than seven days, with the burden of proof on the Crown to justify both initial and continued detention\u201D. New paragraph (j): \u201Cno detention is permitted for longer than 28 days, during which time, detained refugees and asylum seekers must be guaranteed the right to information in a language they understand, prompt and confidential access to a lawyer, and to bring judicial proceedings challenging the lawfulness of their detention\u201D. New paragraph (k): \u201Cno detention is permitted of a person or persons under the age of 18, nor of families with children, nor any detention that separates parents from children\u201D. Finally, new paragraph (l): \u201Cprisons and correctional facilities may not be used for detention purposes\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003ENow, I believe the effect of this amendment would be to ensure that this bill fully reflects the recommendations made by Victoria Casey KC. I urge the Minister to give it serious consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u002287fe779203a44b3ea005b4204f59de1b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287fe779203a44b3ea005b4204f59de1b\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I would also like to speak on a new part of the bill under Subpart 8 that we haven\u2019t covered yet, as well as one of my amendments. That is clause 40 inserting new section 324F(3)(d)\u2014this is on page 31, line 11 of the bill\u2014where it says, \u201Ca condition that the released person take a specified action for the purpose of facilitating the person\u2019s deportation or departure from New Zealand:\u201D. The issue that has been raised in this specific clause is, while it is comparable or has parallels to the previous paragraph (c), the released person in this case\u2014because it\u2019s about facilitating the person\u2019s deportation\u2014needs to specify that that released person is a non-claimant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThe concern would be it would not be appropriate where a refugee claimant\u2019s claim that has not been finally determined for someone who is, for example, going through\u2014and the deportation departure risks breaching Aotearoa New Zealand\u2019s non-refoulement obligations under the refugee convention. This particular amendment is just to ensure that we are not going to capture those instances where claimants are also going to be factored into this particular part. That\u2019s a very small and discrete amendment\u2014sorry, the amendment is 8.40.32.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022 data-id=\u002256b585fff16249e6bf9e66dc8bc0d8d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256b585fff16249e6bf9e66dc8bc0d8d6\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Madam Chair. I really appreciate the opportunity. I just want to seek clarification from the Minister of Immigration, who has already covered this, but in her reply, I would just like to revisit and just quickly go back to clause 25, which amends section 286 in the principal Act, \u201CPowers of entry and search relating to deportation\u201D. The Hon Phil Twyford asked some questions to do with the Dawn Raids, and what I want to get assurance on from the Minister\u2014who replied to the Hon Phil Twyford\u2019s question\u2014is just around the out-of-hours warrant and new section 293B(2), that the application is made to the District Court judge and that it is to take into account, when the judge is doing the warrant and approving it, proportionate and vulnerable protections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022\u003EMinister, what I want to ask you is that (a) do you have officials\u2014because I appreciate that it\u2019s operational and that you would get reporting from time to time as would expect\u2014who give the breakdown of those out-of-hours warrants? Also, is there any other information that\u2019s provided to you with respect to the fear and the trauma that it leaves with, particularly, New Zealand citizen families? I don\u2019t support that they\u2019re harbouring sometimes, but they\u2019re really complex situations. The reason why I ask for clarity around that, Minister, whether you get some of that other information, is because in electorate offices like mine, it is the family members who are legal citizens who come to the office seeking any other way to help their people, or family members, who have been arrested or removed in out of hours. From time to time, these family members are coming to MPs of different parties and expressing their strong views around that. I just wanted to request and ask: is any of that official information passed on to you, Minister? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022 data-id=\u002217f05c855cf14c2eb424e4a330c99905\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002217f05c855cf14c2eb424e4a330c99905\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E This is a section we\u2019ve been over, but, to repeat myself: any out-of-hours activity needs to be signed off with a judicial warrant, and the judge will have to take into account many factors. Is it the last resort? Has everything else been discounted, are there vulnerable people in the house, are there any other things that would mean that this was not the appropriate action to take? Those safeguards are baked in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EI just want to go through some of Phil Twyford\u2019s questions. The question was proposing to include provisions guaranteeing the right to information in a language they understand, and legal representation. This is already provided for in the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. We have a question around a proposed amendment to ban the detention of children. It\u2019s, again, very unlikely this would happen. A judge is unlikely to consider this as proportionate, reasonable, or the least restrictive measurement necessary. Those things are already built in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EMore broadly, on amendment 6.20.01, these changes would make substantive changes to the detention regime and require significant reworking of Part 9 of the Act, and operational changes like purpose-built detention centres would need to be considered, given the member\u2019s requirement that prisons and correctional facilities may not be used for detention purposes. This is not something that we will be considering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcf812d65c1f487997ab23343a7e688e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcf812d65c1f487997ab23343a7e688e\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I wanted to speak to my amendment 23.20.03 in relation to clause 26. Apologies, sorry, it\u2019s 23.20.04\u2014my bad, they were just next to each other. This is in relation, also, to clause 26. The question I had for the Minister of Immigration was: we\u2019ve talked about the Heron KC report throughout the questions, and it\u2019s been mentioned in the answers, but one of the recommendations there and one of the options that was given was to limit out-of-hours immigration rates to situations involving public safety or matters of national security.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003ECan I ask the Minister: why not just follow that recommendation, and rather than leaving it at the discretion of basically a judge, just make it extremely clear that we\u2019re narrowing it down to two specific criteria to then prevent loading the judiciary with additional work to be able to determine as to when out-of-hours visits are appropriate or otherwise? And to just then create two very specific situations noted by the Heron KC report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EI also note this because what we\u2019ve noted throughout the debate in terms of the role of the judiciary when it comes to decision making of the different provisions of the bill, is that there seems to be a bit of a contradiction\u2014not contradiction, but I guess a different application of how the Minister chooses to trust the judgment of a judge\u2014for example, when it comes to liability of deportations where that\u2019s being passed on to Immigration New Zealand. But it seems like she is quite happy to then leave that to a judge when it comes to out-of-hours visits. I think in some ways by being able to restrict the two criteria to just public safety and matters of national security, I think we could just better strengthen the rights of people who could be subjected to out-of-hours visits and genuinely honour these recommendations and the apology that happened in relation to the Dawn Raids.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EOne of the other areas that I wanted to go back to is to\u2014and in one of her contributions I did appreciate her engagement around the definition of \u201Csecurity\u201D. During the debate, I went back to the principal Act and noted that the way that security is defined is not just to provisions of terrorism that she noted; it also includes provisions around affecting our reputation, for example, which is actually quite broad. I think it\u2019s a little red herring, maybe, or just a very extreme example to just point out the terrorism components of the definition of \u201Csecurity\u201D but not recognise that, actually, we have quite a broad definition when it comes to \u201Creputation\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EHow does the Minister see the definition of \u201Creputation\u201D impacting the ability for the Minister to, effectively, make someone liable for deportation should they\u2014sorry, to strip someone\u2019s residency and put them on a temporary visa, should they be deemed as a risk to our reputation? I know she used the example of terrorism. But I think we\u2019ve got to be intellectually honest with ourselves. I\u2019m not, sorry, accusing the Minister of otherwise, but it\u2019s just like, let\u2019s be clear about what, actually, the definition of \u201Csecurity\u201D is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EThe questions were simply just: would she support my amendment to narrow the scope that out-of-hours visits can happen? Can she please clarify how she would apply the provisions in the principal Act on security when it comes to reputation for the purposes of stripping someone\u2019s residency away should they be deemed a threat to our security\u2014not just the most extreme examples\u2014when it comes to terrorism? I would appreciate the engagement and particularly her commitment to the options given in the Heron KC report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022 data-id=\u002226727c4a34614f03a2b67a7f67e0a4e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226727c4a34614f03a2b67a7f67e0a4e0\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Dealing with those two in reverse order, the definition of \u201Cnational security\u201D is not in scope of this bill; it is a previously determined definition and we won\u2019t be entertaining any changes, as it\u2019s not in scope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003ELook, in terms of the tabled amendment 23.20.03, in the name of the member, essentially, this is deleting\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf69625941894fbe98f0ad2685f604c0\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: I meant 04, sorry\u201404\u201423.20.04.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b26012601c634851b97efed26d73d864\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Well, let\u2019s deal with them both, since we\u2019re here. Because 23.20.03, essentially, is deleting clause 26, which is just removing the ability to do an out-of-hours compliance visit, and of course we will not be supporting this. It is really important that there is an option of absolute last resort that has plenty of safeguards and guardrails around it in terms of the fact that we need to go to the judge to get a judicial warrant in order to undertake this activity. As I\u2019ve already mentioned on two or three occasions now, all those safeguards exist there. But the point is that there are always people who use this as a loophole because they know that if they are in a certain place at a certain time, compliance activity cannot be undertaken, and it makes it very, very difficult for Immigration New Zealand to make sure that people are abiding by the terms of their visa and\u2014if it is time for them to leave the country\u2014that we are able to undertake that activity. But, as already mentioned, we have looked at the recommendations of the Casey report and made sure that we\u2019ve put all those safeguards in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EJust also, while I\u2019m here, it reminded me of a question that Phil Twyford asked earlier about the recommendations of the Casey review. I think there\u2019s only one more that we need to put in place, and that\u2019s coming in the next bill that we\u2019ll be introducing. I\u2019ll get to 23.20.04 in a second.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022 data-id=\u002213ba7ace78d94514be58204e934edae7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213ba7ace78d94514be58204e934edae7\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba73fb92374e49058cbfea186fcbc65e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve been watching for the last hour, and I was here for the hour before this, and I\u2019ve just observed that the spokesperson for Labour has a couple more burning questions. But I\u2019m indicating that now\u2014and the Minister has been very engaging\u2014so, the Hon Phil Twyford, I\u2019ll take a couple of questions from you. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022 data-id=\u002290df96191ad44a5f830233a4aebe02c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290df96191ad44a5f830233a4aebe02c5\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. We haven\u2019t yet dealt with electronic monitoring, clause 42, or clause 47, charging of premiums\u2014two very important parts of the bill. But I wanted to speak to my amendments around clause 32. Now, this is important. We\u2019ve dealt with a similar issue in principle, but not in relation to clause 32. It\u2019s really about the precise wording that would justify, in this instance, detention of an asylum seeker. Clause 32 inserts new section 317AA, which sets out the options available to a District Court judge when considering an application for a warrant of commitment. The Law Society the Education and Workforce Committee expressed concerns about the phrase \u201Cthreat or risk to public order\u201D in new section 317AA(4)(a). So this is the core of the justification for a warrant of commitment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003ENow, neither the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees guidelines nor the Casey report identify failing to comply with the Immigration Act as a factor which justifies detention. Both of them say\u2014both the guidelines and the Casey report\u2014that short-term detention may be justified where there are threats to national security or public safety or genuine and real risks of absconding. I agree with the Law Society on this case that detention outside of those limited circumstances is not justified. My amendment to clause 32, in new section 317AA(2)(b) \u201Cafter the word \u2018risk\u2019, insert \u2018of absconding\u2019 \u201D, because, at the moment, risk, just on its own, is extremely broad. Risk of what? I think it would be better if we insert the words \u201Cof absconding\u201D after the word \u201Crisk\u201D. Also, in the second tabled amendment to clause 32, new section 317AA(2)(b); so in subsections (2)(a) and (2)(b) of new section 317AA, let\u2019s tighten up \u201Crisk\u201D by inserting the words \u201Cof absconding\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7ee3c4b87fb4a09a87899100c6b5e32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7ee3c4b87fb4a09a87899100c6b5e32\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E We\u2019ve dealt with this one before. This is not the first time that this has come up\u2014the deletion of this: that they have to comply with the Act. I already made this point that not complying with the Act might be something like not abiding by your RRRA\u2014residence and reporting requirements\u2014or something like you were not where you were supposed to be and you weren\u2019t reporting in, for example; or something that might be against the Act will be failure to turn up to an interview. There are a number of things that are really important around retaining that part that Mr Twyford wants to get rid of in that amendment. But I\u2019ve dealt with that before in someone else\u2019s; that\u2019s not the first time that\u2019s come up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df23ed9a7102406f9899558fb3841582\u0022 data-id=\u00221b9b88834dd54196befe75469a837b61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df23ed9a7102406f9899558fb3841582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b9b88834dd54196befe75469a837b61\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df23ed9a7102406f9899558fb3841582\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00221cad1c1213f2411d9b07dfcc90f7bbb7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221cad1c1213f2411d9b07dfcc90f7bbb7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to Amendment Paper 445 amending new clause 40A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f8668664ef8e421eacf05b040030ac3b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf44887040564d628bdd699e8753f3db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf44887040564d628bdd699e8753f3db\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to Amendment Paper 445 amending new clause 40B be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022027e4b7b80c244aeb30f95ea29db2741\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022458f646e07c54176950e1b30d7db316f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022458f646e07c54176950e1b30d7db316f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Ingrid Leary\u2019s tabled amendment to Amendment Paper 445 deleting new clauses 40A and 40B be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022cc03c566078043acabb48d668578fa64\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022923754b5eafa497485fd7cf7acdd8475\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022923754b5eafa497485fd7cf7acdd8475\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Amendment Paper 445 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229fac955c4e0e4738b4966db3591db190\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11;New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 20\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022595070f20568442cab922102fae7adf2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022595070f20568442cab922102fae7adf2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4(1), amending the definition of \u201Cfirst available craft\u201D to insert \u201Cor after a representative of the person being notified\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225b2b44f214d14cd0ba36235c31a3d515\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022546030dfe9db44d0b0996b258ce6dde6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022546030dfe9db44d0b0996b258ce6dde6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4(1), amending the definition of \u201Cfirst available craft\u201D to insert \u201Cunless in exceptional circumstances\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222bddbbd127a24ab4b786832d3eeef592\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4, Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00221a11b464e570489e92aa7f57029c9f79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a11b464e570489e92aa7f57029c9f79\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4(1), amending the definition of \u201Cfirst available craft\u201D to insert \u201Cand section 166\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226f82a6466b914f9c88d028a8983d1955\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022fac997b67d9e47739d201186d568232e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fac997b67d9e47739d201186d568232e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4(1), amending the definition of \u201Cfirst available craft\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022578de485875b489592c0a3e4d85271b3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00226e3b61519a684a999d322f65505c90d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e3b61519a684a999d322f65505c90d6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4(1), amending the definition of \u201Cirregular entry into New Zealand\u201D to insert \u201Cwillingly\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223a089eb84894419b84a3d45397702d98\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022561ad02987ed4a6b848836fbca0a89e8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Phil Twyford\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4(1) inserting new paragraph (c) is out of order as not being in the correct form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003EThe question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to delete clause 5(2) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022123b6f00455741508a75a34e3e3699ae\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c22c6b94ea354da99d51334b14192e2c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 7, new section 50(4D), inserting new paragraph (aa), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022264c3e9846984a71b37e9b84e7c2e8ef\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022052ed72b78d449f1bc61b3b02abf873a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Vanushi Walters\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 7, new section 50(4D)(b), inserting new subparagraph (iii), be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224cba62a383324db9baed0a0343829081\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea1a754739e641ba9ab325ac2e8398c5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Vanushi Walters\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 7, new section 50(4D)(c), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220e211d5728a54f318c9af82d5e40932d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222592b27b5aab48cab4cd9d620e2e0811\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 7, new section 50(4E)(b), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228fbcd61aee9f41a5a75983d98bc0cc9c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224003f19df0df468bb653d97c4069c661\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 7, new section 50(4E)(c), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a9ffaecdf2f9463485465caead0581d4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4f4535cf5c9469ea21357f4a13617e7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 7, section 50, inserting new subsection (4F) relating to ministerial discretion, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002222a91ebb1dda4901a52e0287d205e2d9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296b2aa9c8b7e4f7e8ed33b9ca82dba73\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 7, section 50, inserting new subsection (4F) to review the effectiveness of a special direction, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002255f4052dcf8245b8a0260381c580d5e5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226062022fa04948e9a9d28e403687a7d2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 8, new section 52(4A), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a7cffbbd02754055a4a306df9ce7f1f2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283e852d13a5a4a52b182f1faa56178d3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 8, new section 52(4D), to insert new paragraph (aa), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b132ec1d91374b32880768d71bb1137e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00228c30c77d9d3640f19a36fd233e201acf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c30c77d9d3640f19a36fd233e201acf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 8, new section 52(4E)(b), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002276affd1aad2643b297b877eea0203b37\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002252c666057d7d4cc4880bac31a6d8218c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252c666057d7d4cc4880bac31a6d8218c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 8, new section 52(4E)(c), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022798f7cb57ef3439f86a1866493055028\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7c1d740ae574015a81aa954b312bb21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7c1d740ae574015a81aa954b312bb21\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 8, new section 52, inserting new subsection (4F) relating to ministerial discretion, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c3a7aec283a5429d91b74735ccc7cdf0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00223281546a8f5b47dabe8282781d317c12\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223281546a8f5b47dabe8282781d317c12\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 8, new section 52, inserting new subsection (4F) to review the effectiveness of a special direction, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222dd1db553ec4479dbba780fbbe81e81a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0cfe7c10fd14e199e01ea6386d6e370\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0cfe7c10fd14e199e01ea6386d6e370\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 9, new section 53(4A)(a), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ec32334d9aaf4bb6b6725680654ac956\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002271dbf05e3e7542ae9d9254f0359b4c82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271dbf05e3e7542ae9d9254f0359b4c82\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Vanushi Walters\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 9, new section 53(4B), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fef7b93b616243a0a76bb680fcba781c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022177a078220a84c50a0c14e0bda284293\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022177a078220a84c50a0c14e0bda284293\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 9, new section 53(4D), inserting new paragraph (aa), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224b4ffb1796644826829a4489567698c5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4a51488c07a46fcbdc7ef8d8ae78c5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4a51488c07a46fcbdc7ef8d8ae78c5b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 9, new section 53(4E)(b), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022232d64a706004be49bd73cd1f0846f4a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022cad33b8a276a4dc2b5d6d8d0396225c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cad33b8a276a4dc2b5d6d8d0396225c5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 9, new section 53(4E)(c), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b3d46deb42c148a0929bd4b32a63b282\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a997f36ce9114deb986b7bf62efb9f05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a997f36ce9114deb986b7bf62efb9f05\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 9, new section 53, inserting new subsection (4F) relating to ministerial discretion, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022835b03e6e0e7467081d3d661e1492b6e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad6b5f300fce49e7b36c9c8d2d691d07\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad6b5f300fce49e7b36c9c8d2d691d07\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 9, new section 53, inserting new subsection (4F) to review the effectiveness of a special direction, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c61998bfac6b4b768159614d4adc5eaa\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002204eba0a81ace42c3a1cc5bdceccff4b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204eba0a81ace42c3a1cc5bdceccff4b0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 10, new section 57(6), inserting new paragraph (aa), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b1f9261fe5c347c980c1efb00e765556\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00220ec61af2a7f54035af370194da002fcb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ec61af2a7f54035af370194da002fcb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 10, new section 57(7)(b), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226863b603783647dd9afac613809100b4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00223bd8503cba0b474694a25806de402ae1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223bd8503cba0b474694a25806de402ae1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 10, new section 57(7)(c), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002299f6cf6b482a4d7d8e9b8721535d83f8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002283f7560f13194c6c96f4e824bea53350\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283f7560f13194c6c96f4e824bea53350\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 10, new section 57, inserting new subsection (8) relating to ministerial discretion, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226be2bd12f4b44c289b0fb5cb146b8b1f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002290d991325dcc41e2a0f5fa569b30dcfd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290d991325dcc41e2a0f5fa569b30dcfd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 10, new section 57, inserting new subsection (8) to review the effectiveness of a special direction, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ca6ff2cb7b46482f8d42b63f2fec37d7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4c7e6cc00424ba883661c05d152e297\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4c7e6cc00424ba883661c05d152e297\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Vanushi Walters\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 11, new section 61B(3), inserting new paragraph (e) relating to the Genocide Convention, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f0a69ea1f80d48dbb4845511d69aabd2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022dabc6c51e7b24bd4a0a5117f84b16423\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dabc6c51e7b24bd4a0a5117f84b16423\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Vanushi Walters\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 11, new section 61(3), inserting new paragraph (e) relating to Human Rights or humanitarian issues, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002289d5ecb101344efdbd58cadcbd1ff5db\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002213970ef4f75a463c95caa0861e6726ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213970ef4f75a463c95caa0861e6726ec\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u2019s tabled amendments deleting clauses 12 to 14 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e9f54ca88ec24d988b0e95e2b31b77db\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 21\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11;New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00228fd44cef676347058c7bd60846588b67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228fd44cef676347058c7bd60846588b67\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Phil Twyford\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 13, replacing section 75A(1), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222f44231ba8a14658a403bc599b264dcd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00224f849d6e99dd4d6f8ec629d30bfa84a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f849d6e99dd4d6f8ec629d30bfa84a3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u2019s tabled amendment deleting Subpart 5 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222d793ccac6a34081b2bd6237ae6e54fd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 21\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11;New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002224a8dade1a564140b3ab5ed421fd91c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224a8dade1a564140b3ab5ed421fd91c6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 18, deleting subclauses (1AA) and (1), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022cb81b20dee664233adf1dd826d239b98\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002225cf6737bfeb4f6b8d341657158f5a48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225cf6737bfeb4f6b8d341657158f5a48\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u2019s tabled amendment deleting clause 26 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bd1fa487bfdd4aa58e197d6998b12f8d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 21\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11;New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b502c20dcb714b4886bbc26f4328ce69\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b502c20dcb714b4886bbc26f4328ce69\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 26, new section 293B(3), amending paragraph (e) and inserting new paragraph\u00A0(f), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dd3fa79345eb4adb8ad7b97c7d26dde9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 21\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11;New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad21de810aec4a18a7e7055529f50f70\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad21de810aec4a18a7e7055529f50f70\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Vanushi Walters\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 26, new section 293B(3)(c), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002252fa8fc3f15e4134b30071afe940483f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00226066364a27924e9381fd257791665f11\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226066364a27924e9381fd257791665f11\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Vanushi Walters\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 26, inserting paragraph (f) into new section 293B(3), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022851e1fac7fb94662bdee368ee841a5bc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002226a174b338e643bbbb8a7610ec400175\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226a174b338e643bbbb8a7610ec400175\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Phil Twyford\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 27, inserting new subclauses (3) to (10), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f634bf9a1eee4c63b38a38ab1c9fc036\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022623e6554544e48dfbece720ff023dc3c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022623e6554544e48dfbece720ff023dc3c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Phil Twyford\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 32, new section 317AA(2)(b)(i)(A), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022414550736e0b4a4c8f7abd5f019cf5dd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00226da1382ac67c4baa8dc435d577884438\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226da1382ac67c4baa8dc435d577884438\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Phil Twyford\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 32, new section 317AA(2)(b)(i)(B), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226ffd64ca4253400a876660e8791653d9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002275c724a65ead4080a3f82680381303dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275c724a65ead4080a3f82680381303dd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 32, new section 317AA(4), deleting paragraph (b) of the definition of \u201Cthreat or risk to public order\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022709b55cd356a4b73bf4b0123960bb17e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022fff32bb87f6b450db27ffb2b4565369e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fff32bb87f6b450db27ffb2b4565369e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 40, new section 324F, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022258c052fd4524dd6804802ed7f5b330d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00220cbd7a063a064e529ceeb523126071d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220cbd7a063a064e529ceeb523126071d8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u2019s tabled amendment deleting clauses 42 and 43 is ruled out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EThe question is that Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u2019s tabled amendment deleting clauses 52 and 54, and subclause (4) of clause 36, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228035783a5e954ec29b3aceccb40a87b3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00229337ef78f5da423f94e05676835f2c0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229337ef78f5da423f94e05676835f2c0b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 42(1), inserting \u201Cno more than 1 month\u201D in new paragraph (da) of section 324F, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226bdad9efb01d4ccb80c0d7777a5cbe1b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 21\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11;New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00227f6559caee3e490a80c40abb145b359b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f6559caee3e490a80c40abb145b359b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 42(1), inserting \u201C, if an adult\u201D in new paragraph (da) of section 324F, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ea1a81070bd24df9a10b8f146bed0bea\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u002201f68b687ec8497c8c7b971b3c4abfe0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201f68b687ec8497c8c7b971b3c4abfe0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Phil Twyford\u2019s amendment to clause 42(1), new paragraphs (db) and (dc), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b68bc76579f8425d933e6ee19c591436\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00223e9f2a79150c4df5b9e7716ca13cb072\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e9f2a79150c4df5b9e7716ca13cb072\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Vanushi Walters\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 43, new section 324J(3)(d), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022254704b3f54241e790f451f870f9ea92\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00223c8048cc43174c6aaa387a40422bc9e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c8048cc43174c6aaa387a40422bc9e0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Phil Twyford\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 47, new section 351A(1), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dc633f832190464bbc6b0f895a2a203e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00220ba76da7225449ac85001520833d2a3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ba76da7225449ac85001520833d2a3f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Phil Twyford\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 48, to insert new subsection (8), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b5b5e22b17504c30b37484e6dbefe6d6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b440d1b0220a4c42b7e73c07c04db6b0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11;New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 21\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cf84e9d4ad2e45c28e237847b17b87a6\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments relating to fiscal sustainability\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca882ab5e7334fe8ba9060b0309be6e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca882ab5e7334fe8ba9060b0309be6e8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 2, the debate on clauses 55 and 56, which are \u201CAmendments relating to fiscal sustainability\u201D. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u002290a52c8a37a34de7858052fcb3d63fe0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290a52c8a37a34de7858052fcb3d63fe0\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. To start with, Part 2 is equally important to Part 1 because it\u2019s actually half of the title of this bill, which is \u201Cfiscal sustainability\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EMy first question to the Minister of Immigration is regarding the advice, in a broader picture, from the Regulations Review Committee, particularly when it comes to the levy-setting component of this. Now, as you know, in terms of how we look at levies and the difference between levies, fees, and tax, there are very specific criteria. Broadly speaking, considering some of the things that are going to be touched on in this bill, I wondered if the Minister would consider my amendment, which doesn\u2019t actually change much but simply calls this section for what it is\u2014that it\u2019s not actually a levy, but a bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c4284ef9df945e0b54ce7a83fe2164d\u0022\u003EHon Erica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: What number?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfd53d35fcd94de4b9eaf895fc9d9078\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: Ah, yes\u2014very good question, thank you Minister. It is 8.40.35.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThe reason I want to raise it as a broader thing\u2014and then we can get into the details of it\u2014is that levies are usually used specifically for the operations of a particular agency in order for them to ensure that there are checks and balances and all ends meet. What we are seeing in this section, and I want to draw attention\u2014and other people will be able to speak to some of the specifics, but, for example, I want to draw the committee\u2019s attention to new paragraph 399AB(2)(a), which is for \u201Cthe operation of, the public health and education systems\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThe other reason I\u2019m asking the Minister\u2019s support on this clarification between a levy and a tax is that levies are usually also within the general responsibility of the Minister in charge, which usually extends to a particular agency, but not so much in terms of what is being asked here. The Minister, for example, as far as I\u2019m aware\u2014and the Minister may correct us\u2014the Minister of Immigration, who oversees the levy and the immigration levy and Immigration New Zealand, is not the Minister who is in charge of the \u201Cinfrastructure required for, or operation of, the public health and education systems\u201D. It\u2019s a technical aspect. It\u2019s based on a definition, but it\u2019s a very important definition in the general process, and this is something that if you seek advice from the Controller and Auditor-General, you will find similar advice between levy, fee, and tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThe first thing I want to ask the Minister is whether the Minister will support my amendment to change \u201Cimmigration levies\u201D to \u201Cimmigration taxes\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022993d2c799cb848d1b1beb2f69dd82712\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022993d2c799cb848d1b1beb2f69dd82712\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I know my colleague the Hon Phil Twyford will have some questions regarding what this levy does specifically. We do support it, in terms of sharing the burden, but my very different question is: what is not in Part 2, relating to the levy, based on the amendment that the Minister of Immigration dropped today? While we accept the changes around electronic monitoring, there are going to be additional costs to the immigration system, and as Lawrence Xu-Nan has said, levies, by definition, have to relate specifically to the purpose that they are created for. It\u2019s very clear in this bill that they are to fund education and health and to operationalise those. That\u2019s very explicit, and it seems like this is quite a separate kind of immigration matter to what we\u2019ve previously been speaking about. Yet we have had changes now\u2014good changes\u2014made to the system regarding mass arrivals, where electronic monitoring, which is a fairly cost-effective way of dealing with people, will be limited. But we haven\u2019t heard anything from the Minister about what the risk mitigation will be for that, and what the funding arrangements will be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EWhen we\u2019re looking at the costings, the question I have for the Minister is: whether she has conducted a cost-benefit impact assessment on the changes, including costs to immigration, now that she has tabled that amendment? Because that\u2019s something that we have not had time to consider, and it wouldn\u2019t have been at select committee\u2014that\u2019s particularly with the restrictions to electronic monitoring, and considering, also, the additional costs to policing and other things that are going to happen as a result. They are very broad. They are definitely not the subject of what we would expect a levy for. But my question is: if we\u2019re going to look at the totality of the immigration system with these changes, is this the right vehicle? Should there be something in this bill, which includes mass arrivals, to indicate how the Minister is planning to pay for the fiscals on that and, also, the affordability and the sources of revenue for the alternative methodologies, now that we know that electronic monitoring won\u2019t be available? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EJust for those who are watching at home, we know that levies need to be certain, they need to be simple, they need to be neutral, and they need to be flexible. Certainly, we can see that, and I know that my colleague the Hon Phil Twyford will have some questions around how they apply to the employment situation. But my broader question, if you like, is: what is missing from this? The part itself does say \u201CAmendments relating to fiscal sustainability\u201D, and I read that as meaning fiscal sustainability of the whole system. How are we going to pay for the mass-arrivals changes previously, if not by a levy? Are we going to apply the tyranny of silos and put policing and other costs elsewhere, or is there going to be a proper costing done that looks at the totality? Then how are we going to pay for those additional measures?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022 data-id=\u002258b3d385629846dd851288ff6f914ea1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258b3d385629846dd851288ff6f914ea1\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E The member Ingrid Leary kind of answered her own question in her speech. Essentially, as she rightly points out, we are broadening the levy base in immigration, because, at the moment, we only are able to levy the people who are applying for a visa. We are unable to apply levies to employers, for example, who are other people who get direct benefits from the immigration system but who aren\u2019t contributing towards it. This is exactly what this part does: it broadens it out so that if things like the mass arrivals or the electronic monitoring or any other running of the immigration system which is a defined cost and is set out is able to be contributed to by a much broader base of people and not just the migrants themselves. That\u2019s in answer to that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EResponding to Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan, the levy sets out a finite set of purposes that the levy can be charged for to specific groups. This makes it not aligned with a tax, which is very broad. The provision is carefully drafted so that it is not a broad tax but a very clear levy set out for a finite set of purposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022 data-id=\u00222ac96ae8f3a24e1dad1d0be6a94a1b09\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ac96ae8f3a24e1dad1d0be6a94a1b09\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you so much, Mr Chair. I do have an amendment 23.20.09. This is in relation to tightening what these levies can be used for so that it is only for the immigration system, and I wanted to understand if the Minister of Immigration would be in support of it. I had some questions in relation to clause 56, new section 399AB, on page 40 and on subsection (2)(a), which is the intent of the wording in relationship to this\u2014and to note that we don\u2019t support this, but at least it\u2019s good that the Minister has clarified that it\u2019s public health and education systems; so \u201Cpublic\u201D. But the language around infrastructure does not specify that it\u2019s public infrastructure, right? So can I just get the clarification of the intent\u2014whether the Minister could foresee these levies being used to fund public-private partnerships, for example, and to contribute to the costs of those. That is important because, effectively, by not clarifying the types of infrastructure more broadly, it leaves a bit of a lack of clarity in the language of it. I\u2019m just concerned around the scope of just kind of keeping it so broad when it comes to the language of infrastructure. Clarification around that would be useful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EThe other question I had was, in clause 56, new section 399AB(2)(a)(i) in relation to that, which is in the specification of funding specialist teachers, school property, teacher training, or learning support. This makes an assumption that all migrants use the education system, but can I just ask whether, for example, if you\u2019ve got a single adult coming here who may not be coming on a student visa, may just be choosing to work, may not be pursuing education at any point in their life, as to whether they should also be required to pay a levy to contribute to the education system; or is it only the intent to then target specific visa holders that may be deemed to be using the education system more broadly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EI would also be keen\u2014my third question is in relation to clause 56, new section 399AB(2)(b) in relationship to employers. Now, what work has the Minister done or sought reassurances from industry bodies of employers that there may not be a level of, I guess, lowering of wage growth as a result of the provisions in here? I\u2019ve seen that the Minister has obviously tweaked around some of the wage requirements for visa holders coming here and not all, actually, visa holders have conditions on their visa that require them to be in jobs that they earn a specific amount of wage. Now, what reassurances can the Minister give us that employers may not use these provisions on clause 56, new section 399AB(2)(b,) and as a result of them contributing levies to justify paying lower wages to migrant workers and, therefore, suppressing wages for migrant workers and locals more broadly as a result of those additional costs? If she\u2019s able to provide us some reassurances from industry bodies that this will not happen, that will be useful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022 data-id=\u0022671325ef6fee4faa8419227909db10e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022671325ef6fee4faa8419227909db10e1\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E It is a requirement that employers are paying a wage that is commiserate with industry standards for the skill of the person who is being employed\u2014our immigration officers are always checking that. I would also note that we\u2019ve just had a fee review, where we\u2019ve raised fees and have not seen any evidence of the fact that employers are reducing wages to somehow make up for a small fee increase. But built into the immigration system is that when we are looking at an application for someone coming into the country who is, for example, going to be a painter and has a certain amount of experience and skill, we are always looking to make sure that they are being paid at a rate that is commiserate with their skill and experience. There is something built into the system there, but we\u2019ve not seen any evidence, when we\u2019ve done our fee reviews recently, of an increasing fees to employers of, for example, job checks\u2014or when we\u2019re asking employers to be accredited, we\u2019ve not seen any evidence, or I\u2019ve not been provided with any evidence, that wages have gone down as a result of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022 data-id=\u002293b6fd3e0f104af3afbf426a39de2816\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293b6fd3e0f104af3afbf426a39de2816\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I think it\u2019s fair to say that Labour was intrigued by these provisions, and we remain so\u2014somewhat agnostic about them but willing to go along, really, in support of the principle that if costs can be spread more fairly, then all the better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EI wanted to just ask for the Minister of Immigration\u2019s response to a number of submitters\u2014I remember the Employers and Manufacturers Association particularly\u2014pointing out that the kinds of levies that one would anticipate from these provisions would very likely create the perception of double-dipping by the Government\u2014seeking cost recovery through these new levies for things that are fully funded by tax revenue, including the taxes paid by existing migrants, without necessarily any expansion of services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EThey also asked, I remember\u2014well, they expressed the view that they would feel penalised for going to the cost and bother of recruiting someone on a temporary work visa from overseas, because the education system that is funded by our taxes here in New Zealand is not producing the kind of skilled workers that they need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EI ask the Minister to respond to that. I think the implication of that question or that concern was that these levies, if not implemented in the right way, could really negatively affect the social licence and public support for the immigration programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022 data-id=\u002224c7702d08b94f06b50e29e497bc3a2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224c7702d08b94f06b50e29e497bc3a2a\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Dealing with those two things: look, there are considerable costs that are worn by the system that are potentially not accounted for. Remember, setting up the ability to have additional levies on different people, like employers, doesn\u2019t necessarily mean that it will be done, and it means there will have to be a process of a fee and levy review in regulations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EI want to make the point that there are significant costs that fall on our system. If you think about education\u2014I\u2019m putting my other hat on for a moment\u2014we have significant costs, for example, in learning support for migrants who have children who have additional learning support needs. The amount of tax payable in, say, the three to five years that the person is here and potentially using services like teacher-aides or speech language therapists or educational psychologists and the like is something that we want to be able to consider accounting for in levies. These clauses are just giving us the ability to be able to consider that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EI think Mr Twyford probably answered his own question in the second part when he talked about the fact that the education system was potentially not providing the skilled workers that these employers were asking for. Part of this bill is actually saying that we would like to be able to set or pay for, or have employers levied to directly pay for, the upskilling of Kiwis into roles so that they don\u2019t have to employ migrants from overseas. Currently, they are enjoying the benefit of the skilled person from overseas, and the question here is whether or not we should be levying to make sure that we are able to fund education services to upskill New Zealanders into those roles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u00229ae1720e810d44e9b7ccf31c6a1c060f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ae1720e810d44e9b7ccf31c6a1c060f\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to continue. I want to be getting into some of the specific clauses of Part 2. I want to start with replacement section 399(1), inserted by clause 55, and specifically around replacement section 399(1)(c), \u201Ceducation providers that are signatory providers within the meaning of section 10\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ENow, I want to check with the Minister of Immigration in terms of a couple of things. Number one: what is the revenue that the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment is currently getting from the export education levy (EEL) already? Because, as the Minister would know, under the relevant regulations, those who are registered are already being charged 0.8 percent of the levy for a tuition fee for a student and those who are unregistered are being charged at 0.5 percent. I used to work at an international school where I had to pay export education levies every year all the time. Under this new requirement, in terms of the immigration levy, would, then, institutes who accept international students be double levied, so the new immigration levy plus the EEL? That\u2019s my first question on that. I think that\u2019s an important clarification, particularly for schools that accept international students and private training establishments that accept international students, as well as tertiary institutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EIn terms of the other thing that the Minister has said, and one of the things that we are noticing as well is schools\u2014and the Minister may have an idea as well that schools often do bring in international students in order to supplement their operational fund and be able to do more things for the schools and for all of their students. If they\u2019re being levied and then the levy is being used as part of the education system, would the school have any guarantee that some of the levies that are put towards it will also come back to them, or will it be something that is more evenly distributed to other ones?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EMy third question to the Minister is around what the Minister said before in terms of how you\u2019re going to have people here who potentially are on a work visa with children who have additional needs who may be using learning access or a variety of forms of learning access. But I just want to check with the Minister, surely if you\u2019re here and you\u2019re working, you\u2019re paying taxes anyway, and people who are paying taxes as PAYE are already contributing towards the kind of core facilities and infrastructure that a taxpaying person would be eligible for. Therefore, their child, regardless of whether they have paid an additional levy or not, should be able to access the same thing as anyone else who pays the same amount of tax, because it\u2019s not like people who are on a work visa are paying lower tax than people who are permanent residents, etc.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI just want to check what the Minister means when the Minister has just referred to those additional things, or if the Minister can give examples of people who are here who are not paying taxes that contribute towards the public health and education systems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022 data-id=\u00225def35101469453099994417a6280a13\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225def35101469453099994417a6280a13\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you so much, Mr Chair. I just wanted to move on to subsection (6) within clause 56, new section 399AB. This is the one that allows the Minister to, by special direction, \u201C(a) exempt any person or class of persons from the obligation to pay all or part of the levy; or (b) refund all or part of a levy paid.\u201D Now, can the Minister of Immigration, please, reassure us that her intention is not to include applicants of the migrant exploitation protection visa when it comes to this levy or people who are applying for the family violence visa as well as part of this levy? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003ENow, there are some visas that people have to access as a result of, well, tragedy and hardship that people experience. I think the powers that this levy grants the Minister are pretty broad. I don\u2019t remember her giving us explicit clarification and reassurances that some of those visas that are for people who are finding themselves in particularly vulnerable situations will be exempt from having to contribute to those. I noted that this is a line that could allow the Minister to, basically, exempt people\u2014part of these powers. I think it would be good for the Minister right now to give us that reassurance in relationship to the powers that the Minister is given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003ENow, one of the subsequent questions, following up on my colleague Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan, is also, as part of the signing of this part, whether she sought advice to allow her to have a picture as to whether migrants in the medium term\u2019s contributions through tax towards education and health are greater than the resources they utilise. I have seen some documents showing that migrants are actually net contributors to the tax base due to the fact that they can\u2019t access things like welfare and things like other public services while they are working. The reason why I ask this is that it is concerning to be building this narrative that somehow migrants, compared to the general population, utilise or extract more resources from the public system, as opposed to what we have seen in some papers in relation to migrants actually contributing to a greater degree to the tax base than they take as a result of the utilisation of public services. To me, that puts into question the justification and this narrative that we have heard that, somehow, migrants need to contribute an additional level of resourcing for these systems\u2014so whether she sought any advice or analysis on the kind of contribution versus intake of public services from migrants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EThe second question which I referred to earlier is: which groups of visas has she already pre-emptively chosen to exclude\u2014for example, migrant exploitation protection visa or people who are experiencing family violence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022 data-id=\u00226d11e6fbe4124f3595b287bb455353cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d11e6fbe4124f3595b287bb455353cb\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Just running through that, currently exempt from levies are people who are applying for domestic violence visas, refugees, and migrant exploitation visas. These exemptions already exist currently for levies. As we work through the fee and levy review and go through the regulations, then further exemptions would be considered at that time, and that\u2019s what the bill sets up the ability to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EI just want to make it really clear that the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment doesn\u2019t receive any of the export education levy, it is for a completely different purpose under a different Act, and is, as I think the member knows, for quite a different, separate purpose, not for helping to contribute to the costs and broadening the base\u2014contributing to the costs of running the immigration system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EThe second part of this, the levy that we are considering and putting the vehicle into this bill, if we were to levy for different purposes outside of what we do now\u2014like health or education, for example\u2014a levy must fund specific purposes, like specialist teachers, teacher training, or learning support, for example. Just to the previous speaker\u2019s point, we already, under the Immigration Act and under the levy, have the ability to levy for things like English as a second language funding, so we already do that because we acknowledge that it is a direct cost mostly borne out by migrants. But what we\u2019re acknowledging in this bill is that there are more costs that should be directly payable, to a proportion, through a levy by migrants. That is because they are here for a shorter period of time, and as I\u2019ve already mentioned, they must be for specific purposes that are directly linked to those people. That\u2019s why it\u2019s very clearly set out that there has to be a relationship there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022 data-id=\u00223927e5040f774d1288004f7db3bc356a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223927e5040f774d1288004f7db3bc356a\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and really appreciating the Minister of Immigration\u2019s engagement with these quite important questions. I have to put it on the record that I was approached by the international students at Otago University about a year and a half ago, who are really concerned at the jump in fees for them to be able to study at Otago. So while we cautiously support this idea of spreading the fee load, I\u2019m concerned that we might end up with a two-tier system where we have employers who are able to afford and support students, or if students are in a particularly advantaged situation because it is clear that somehow their fees will be more affordable, whereas other students will not be able to do that. So just seeking an assurance, really, that we\u2019re not going to be creating subclasses of migrants who are really feeling the pinch from these fees and levies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EWell, they\u2019re levies and they pay university fees, but I do take the Minister\u2019s point that there are costs involved with manaaki-ing people into New Zealand. The Minister herself brought into the debate and talked about the fact that the wider costings borne by the immigration system are not captured within this. We do have the wording in Part 2, \u201Cfiscal sustainability\u201D. What we haven\u2019t seen or heard from the Minister is what the fiscals are for the new mass arrivals regime. I am sure, given the duration of time that this has been considered across Parliament, including by Ministers under the previous Labour Government, that setting up what a mass arrivals scheme would look like and the impact of that on immigration, on airport operational capacity, on the cultural training and safety that might be needed for enforcement officers, for the ability to use information and data to track the 24-hour time frame to see whether there is something that qualifies as a mass arrival. Then also there are processes needed to be able to efficiently deal with people if there were, I think, 30-something people coming in at one time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThere must be costings on that, and I\u2019d really like to know from the Minister, since she did raise herself that this is a broader systems cost that is not contained in the levy\u2014it would be good to know what the cost to the taxpayer is. I really appreciate the fact that it\u2019s not going to be pushed into this levy and that we\u2019re not suddenly seeing an expansion of powers that extend it from operationalising health and education and then going to mass arrivals. But she has talked about broadening it further. We don\u2019t really know what that broadening means. The Minister has talked about particular educational things that might be included, but there must be some specificity, I think. I know the Minister draws on education because she has that portfolio and knowledge, and also immigration, but I\u2019m really curious to know\u2014and for the Hansard\u2014what does she foresee as the benefit of broadening those powers? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThen, secondly, where are the fiscals, or can she share with this committee the costs of the mass arrivals? I\u2019m assuming that the cost of doing this well is going to be, ultimately, a huge cost savings for taxpayers. But I will remind you that the Minister did mention that herself, and that\u2019s why I\u2019m asking, because under Part 2, when we\u2019re talking about sustainability, we\u2019ve got this wedged into two very different parts of an immigration question. We want to take a systems approach and it would be good to understand the fiscals for both of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022 data-id=\u00223326c1f8479b44ac8eb5af0e6783daf7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223326c1f8479b44ac8eb5af0e6783daf7\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a very nice try from the member, but she raised mass arrivals, not me. I\u2019ve made the broad point that in order to run the immigration system we need to levy. There will be costs that fall. In the fee and levy review and in regulations that we set, those will be taken into account. It\u2019s actually irrelevant to Part 2. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003EAlso, if the member wants to know the direct benefits of the proposed levy, I suggest she looks at clause 56 inserting new section 399AB, \u201CExtended immigration levy\u201D, because it\u2019s laid out in subsection (2) quite clearly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022 data-id=\u00224837e6105d2b4a0297ca70f6aa380d88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224837e6105d2b4a0297ca70f6aa380d88\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022 data-id=\u002283c1fd06b9804a38ba8c5546778201b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283c1fd06b9804a38ba8c5546778201b0\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I had a question in relation to the provisions in new section 399AC, inserted by clause 56, which we haven\u2019t touched on yet. This is in relation to: \u201CBefore recommending the making of regulations for the purposes of section 399AB, the Minister must consult any persons and organisations the Minister considers appropriate,\u201D. Now, I understand that obviously this is left broad enough for any Minister of any Government to do this consultation, but has the Minister already set out, or sought advice on, who she foresees will be the organisations and the people that she intends to consult with? Would she be able to give some clarity on, and put on the record, the range of bodies that she will look to consult\u2014for example, will unions be part of that; which industry bodies will she be prioritising; and when it comes to persons, is it going to be sort of like immigration lawyers, experts, etc.? I think some clarity over that would be useful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EI think, particularly, in the context of the public trust being tested, in relation to who Governments choose to consult with in relation to policy design, it would be good to put it on the record. If she hasn\u2019t done any work in relation to the provisions of new section 399AC or hasn\u2019t lined up any organisations or people, I can accept that, and it would be good to have that clarified as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EI wanted to ask whether\u2014or why\u2014there aren\u2019t any, by the looks of it, reporting requirements\u2014and I know that we could potentially get them through Official Information Act requests\u2014but who she is consulting with and, kind of, a bit of an explanation as to why she may have included some organisations and bodies compared to others. I\u2019m just keen to also get the Minister\u2019s clarification on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EI wanted to follow up on the previous engagement, and I thank the Minister around her engagement on the exclusion of some of the visa categories that are specifically for vulnerable people. She did not necessarily give a commitment that some of these visas would be excluded; it\u2019s just something that would be looked into\u2014which takes me to my colleague Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment 8.40.36, which specifies victims of family violence resident visa, refugee family support resident visa, dependent child resident visa, trafficking victim resident visa, and any other refugee, vulnerable person, or protective person visa categories.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003ENow, I know that the Minister already talked about the interaction with some of the other regulation-making powers that exist in the current legislation that we have. But without giving us an explicit reassurance that some of these visas will be excluded right now, it\u2019s hard for us to have faith that some of these won\u2019t be captured. We\u2019re happy to rescind that amendment if the Minister is able to give us that reassurance that those visas won\u2019t be captured, as opposed to just letting us know that she\u2019ll look at it at some point. Because I don\u2019t think that gives certainty to people who often are in extremely precarious situations that they may not be burdened by additional costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EI particularly raise this because for people on the migrant exploitation protection work visa, even just the cost of applying for those visas can be a bit of a barrier, and additional costs, through this levy, could end up becoming a disincentive for people to report exploitation, if they know that they could be burdened with additional costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EFinally, my other question is in relation to how the Minister would foresee decisions on how the funding that is acquired through the levy would be distributed between infrastructure, public health, and education? Particularly, I wanted to seek guidance and clarification from the Minister as to whether she would see the distribution of those funds between those three entities that are noted as part of a budget process, or whether she\u2019s got any sort of clarification as to how she foresees those three bodies that are being named, in terms of decision making, when it comes to the distribution of those three. I would appreciate the Minister\u2019s engagement. But, particularly, the one I care the most about is the one on new section 399AC, which we haven\u2019t touched on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022 data-id=\u00228bc57d48131747d38f9e368248744ecc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228bc57d48131747d38f9e368248744ecc\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022883950ff90824f78b7052b639a925a3d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022883950ff90824f78b7052b639a925a3d\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. And just a very quick question from me and it\u2019s a new point which is really around section 399AC, in clause 56, where we can see in subsection (2), \u201CAt intervals of no more than 5 years following the commencement of this section, the Department must review the amount and method of calculation of any extended immigration levy.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EI\u2019m keen to understand why it\u2019s five years. I know that\u2019s quite an ordinary drafting time frame, but it\u2019s a pretty fluid situation at the moment with the cost of living. We have seen big rises in immigration fees, as I mentioned, for international students who are really concerned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EWould it be fairer to reduce that amount and make it annual or perhaps every two years, especially taking into account the impact of the levy on those who are applying for visas? We don\u2019t see any weighting in the way the bill is currently drafted that really prioritises them, and therefore there is a real risk that in terms of these levies, along with the increasing cost of living, the rules just roll over and they\u2019re not fit for purpose for the context. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EWould it be useful for the Minister to consider a shorter time frame? Did she actually consider other time frames or was this just put into the bill because it happens to reflect something that already existed in the previous bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1f0f936d64b4eda9e723bd1794e1540\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1f0f936d64b4eda9e723bd1794e1540\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E In relation to that last part, it\u2019s not in scope of the bill, so it wasn\u2019t something that we considered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003ECan I just answer the questions relating to the previous speaker. Firstly, in terms of what the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment spends in terms of those levies, it will be reported on exactly what is collected and then how the money is distributed. So there is accountability in the system. I just will make the point that the migrant exploitation visa is free. There are no costs for it. So while the member is concerned that it might increase by a certain percentage, it\u2019s a free visa. But I\u2019ve already made the point that any extensions to the levy base will be considered through regulations and the fee and levy review. But all of those things are currently exempted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003ENow, in terms of clause 56, new section 399AC that the member talked about, essentially, the people who we are going to consult, as you would expect, are the people who are affected. It will be made public by Immigration New Zealand, who has been consulted with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022 data-id=\u0022a32acef8db014a5bbb7e8368d1186831\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a32acef8db014a5bbb7e8368d1186831\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022427d8280d93b4b75adfe62c24d01180e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022427d8280d93b4b75adfe62c24d01180e\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I actually have a really short question, and if the Minister of Immigration will just nod, that is sufficient for me. Thank you to the Minister for responding to the question around export education levies, but one of the things we didn\u2019t hear from the Minister is: does that mean that education providers will be double levied\u2014one for education export levy and one for this? That\u2019s all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f390037b9444409a90ba504b4c5cea2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f390037b9444409a90ba504b4c5cea2e\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E They\u2019re two completely different levies. One is in a completely different Act and is for a completely different purpose. It is, essentially, an insurance scheme for when an education provider falls over. To protect our reputation, we pay back the fees of the impacted students. It is a completely separate thing in a completely different Act. The member shouldn\u2019t conflate the two. This is a completely different proposal to broaden the levy base to people who are benefiting from the immigration system, like export education providers, and like employers who currently might pay a fee, like an employer, but do not pay a levy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003ENow, if we want to broaden this and have a more fair system, and, in answer to previous question, maybe reduce the levies that we currently levy on migrants, then we need to have a broader base. It is fair and reasonable to expect that people who are benefiting from the immigration system should be equally charged a levy so that they can, essentially, pay for the benefits that they are currently getting but are not contributing towards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00225691740e5070435f8dc169b34a939f9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225691740e5070435f8dc169b34a939f9b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u2019s tabled amendment deleting clause 55 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002216c8a1b0105044c29030d83151fd82f4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u002285c27b660f8f445495af6ca475339f8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285c27b660f8f445495af6ca475339f8e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 55 and 56 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fa7541a616cc4e4badf71ebdce8fa9c4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00228dd77fe8c18145abacb347f5ec9ed028\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228dd77fe8c18145abacb347f5ec9ed028\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Vanushi Walters\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 56, new section 399AA, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022171a2043e3f94103a7e3d548551c7f8b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022029ec914aa6e45ac8b366f016c97cd4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022029ec914aa6e45ac8b366f016c97cd4c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u2019s tabled amendments to clause 56, amending the heading and deleting new section 399AB and 399AC, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221671dc7ad62d4de7addd11fa85e24aba\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 21\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11;New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u002287a6334d089f427fada7e855c4a63e71\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287a6334d089f427fada7e855c4a63e71\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 56, new section 399AB(2)(a), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227a4f5e374660400eb979ff57d9ee7963\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 21\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11;New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00223a8f44c024054c33a2e04170de449b43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a8f44c024054c33a2e04170de449b43\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 56, new section 399AB, inserting new subsection (4A), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022388ba71d16ed4be4a2bd1439d244d7fd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022788b03aa78b64be4888349a9f0142a44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022788b03aa78b64be4888349a9f0142a44\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Vanushi Walters\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 56, new section 399AB(8), inserting new paragraphs (c) and (d), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022759ae31fb5214d5fb2c85fa3e41e3385\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022708b27531033424099e3b4c1ebe158fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022708b27531033424099e3b4c1ebe158fd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Phil Twyford\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 56, new section 399AB, to insert new subsection (10), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220fce28a43cf041988e5220c5d2bbfe9d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002254316435550a412cba7879b42577fb0f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 21\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00228343313e9f5d4faebd1398fc238c9e0c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228343313e9f5d4faebd1398fc238c9e0c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The time has come for me to leave the Chair for the lunch break. The committee will resume at 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 12.57 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220ce26dfa077c4989b6c71d08c29b6e7e\u0022\u003EPart 2A  Amendment relating to repeals, transitional provisions, saving provisions, and related matters\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc812093ae8a47c6a0f9d2a4d5d0f714\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc812093ae8a47c6a0f9d2a4d5d0f714\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the committee is resumed on the Immigration (Fiscal Sustainability and System Integrity) Amendment Bill. When we were last debating the bill before the lunch break, we had just concluded the debate on Part 2. We now come to Part 2A. Part\u00A02A is the debate on clause 56A: \u201CAmendment relating to repeals, transitional provisions, saving provisions, and related matters\u201D. The question is that Part 2A stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8077ea2ddd746d0a6174f3f75d1454a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8077ea2ddd746d0a6174f3f75d1454a\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. As you have rightly said, this is around amending the deportation liability of residence class visa holders and it amends section 431 of the principal Act. It is really good to see that care has been taken to cross-reference and make sure that where there has been an imposing of conditions and limiting of rights, that the Minister and officials have taken care to ensure that there are, equally, the exemptions that correspond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EIf we go to the principal Act, section 431 talks about the deportation liability of residence class visa holders convicted of a criminal offence. In subsection 431(1)(a), (b), and (c), it has various carve-outs for people who would be exempt under that principal Act. What we see from the original amendment\u2014not the amendment of the amendment that was dropped today\u2014is that suddenly we have got people who have been found guilty captured by some of those provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EWhat this quite rightly does is it includes ensuring that those who are found guilty are also able to access those exemptions. I guess the question is why go to all that trouble to unpick something when it would have been easier just to not add \u201Cfound guilty\u201D into the original deportation provisions. We haven\u2019t asked or heard from the Minister whether she has received Ministry of Justice advice on the rights and impacts of that, and those provisions are in replacement sections 156, 158, 161, and 18C, so I would like to know why we have got this convoluted kind of carve-out rather than not simply extending them in the first place. Did the Minister receive advice about that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EAlso, if we think about proportionality, which has been impacted here, and particularly when we\u2019re talking about people who are guilty, there are people who are convicted for things overseas, for very petty things including political things where they could be found guilty overseas, and now they are able to access this exemption but they\u2019re still captured by the extension of guilt to the conviction list in the original Act. I know that\u2019s a bit confusing, but it is a very convoluted process and we haven\u2019t heard the advice that the Minister received on why those powers have been extended. Wouldn\u2019t it have been simpler to not have to do this and we would do away with Part 2A and simply not have that extension?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EOn that basis, my colleague Vanushi Walters actually does have a tabled amendment. She is much more across the legalities of this than me and I would really like her to have the opportunity to speak to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022 data-id=\u00225145868eba454e4cafd3c97b49eec697\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225145868eba454e4cafd3c97b49eec697\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I thought I would rise and speak to my amendment filed at 12.05, which reads, \u201CIn Part 2A, clause 56A, insert in section 431, in the heading to section 431, the words \u2018unless subject to a discharge without conviction\u2019 after the words \u2018or guilty\u2019 \u201D. As my colleague Ingrid Leary has said, this responds to that concern that was raised by the Law Society in their submission, where they pointed out that the automatic triggering of deportation liability in such cases would really place, or could really place, a person in jeopardy of severe immigration consequences, even where the courts have themselves determined that\u2014applying a proportionality test in section 107 of the Sentencing Act, which is a test that can and should be applied because we expect judges to be turning their minds to the specific consequences of the case\u2014the consequences of a conviction would be out of proportion to the gravity of the offending. So this isn\u2019t something that\u2019s used all the time by judges, but, certainly, as the decision makers closest to the individual concerned and the context of the issues, the concept is there\u2014it\u2019s a familiar one in law\u2014that the judge can determine whether the circumstances are such that a discharge should be granted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI think the flip side of that, as well, is that judges will be aware of this legislation coming through the pipeline, so you can imagine that a discharge wouldn\u2019t be granted if it wasn\u2019t in the interest to do so or if there were security risks in place. So, just once again, I\u2019m really urging the Minister of Immigration to consider whether that is an aspect of this bill that can be changed. Ideally, my sense is we wouldn\u2019t just be doing it in this part, of course; we would be doing it in both the substantive heading as well as the substantive provision. However, this is an opportunity to fix what seems to me to clearly be an issue, and an issue that sits starkly against judicial powers to assess situations and determine whether liability should attach, whether convictions should attach, or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab84e54b0275479aac3ffb6d1d47b5c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab84e54b0275479aac3ffb6d1d47b5c7\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just following on from the previous two speakers, I want to focus on the fact that this one says \u201Cconvicted\u201D and \u201Cor guilty\u201D. But, again, I\u2019m going to mention, reference, a previous section but not actually talk about the previous section, which is that in a previous section we specifically talked about two types of being guilty: being found guilty and pleading guilty. But over here, the title is, rather than saying, like the previous section, \u201Cconvicted\u201D, \u201Cfound guilty\u201D, or \u201Cpleaded guilty\u201D, it is just \u201Cconvicted\u201D, \u201Cor guilty\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI want to check with the Minister of Immigration that in this case the inserted words \u201Cor guilty\u201D covers both types\u2014\u201Cfound\u201D and also \u201Cpleaded\u201D. If it does cover both types\u2014for example, not just simply those who are found guilty\u2014I wondered if the Minister could advise the committee on when you\u2019re looking at deportation or deportation liabilities, has there been any work that\u2019s been done looking at how this would potentially affect people\u2019s intention to plead guilty in the first place, because whether they are pleading guilty or found guilty or don\u2019t have a conviction, are acquitted, or are convicted, the outcome is all going to be the same to them in terms of deportation liability of resident visa class.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ESo I just want to check those two questions with the Minister\u2014if guilty covers both types and whether there\u2019s any sort of research or any sort of advice being given around the impact this will have on people who may no longer then wish to plead guilty because they\u2019re going to be deported regardless; they might as well try their luck and go through the court process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb54113bef2e44a2ad87a0749265901f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: OK, so we don\u2019t potentially have any answers to those questions. I\u2019m sure, Lawrence, you can ask another question. I\u2019m just going to get some advice. This is not a reflection on the Minister in the chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022087916f89ffd4e3a83135773f6526e97\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely not, and I really appreciate you, Madam Chair. We understand that the Minister in the chair is not the same Minister we had previously, but also that there are officials involved. I just want to seek clarification from you, Chair\u2014if the Minister should receive some advice on this, it\u2019s something that a Minister could speak to at a later part and just quickly reference this section on some of the questions we may have. That\u2019s all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfdb943fc5ae449484dc73a7ae6da81c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m just taking some advice. Thank you. So the advice is, unless you have some more questions, we will take this part to a vote. So we\u2019ll do that now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003EThe question is that Vanushi Walters\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 56A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ce478146e0654b1e8ed3d484bccc38f4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Ferris;Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11;New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 17\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2A agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022878ab19c10ce476ab5e672ec1d4b3b31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022878ab19c10ce476ab5e672ec1d4b3b31\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Part 2A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002270c2abc6c62c457285ee0da7dbf31b27\u0022\u003EPart 3  Consequential amendments, and Schedules 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00224f153dc7d71043fb96b1c6245001ce31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f153dc7d71043fb96b1c6245001ce31\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 3. Part 3 is the debate on clauses 57 and 58, \u201CConsequential amendments\u201D, and Schedules 1 and 2. The question is that Part 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022a329dda2601e484399f27877814c8cbe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a329dda2601e484399f27877814c8cbe\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. We\u2019ve just got a couple of questions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dae29e821824129b3ddea5f56bdb883\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry. The question is that Part 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e98535c3b994ae3998ec8d08c32dd5e\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. The consequential amendment in clause 57, \u201CSchedule 1AA amended\u201D, basically inserts the part set out in Schedule 1 and makes all the necessary consequential amendments, which includes creating a new Part 4. We just have questions around what the impact of that is from a rule-of-law perspective regarding the new ministerial powers that might come into effect, because the people could be out in the community on conditions under the original Immigration Act or other Acts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThen new powers have been conferred by new section 324F, inserted by clause 40. I don\u2019t think there has been a New Zealand Bill of Rights Act (BORA) vet, but I do understand that there has been section 7 advice. So we\u2019re trying to understand what would happen if a new condition was imposed on somebody under those circumstances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EIt could be an oversight, and my question is a kind of policy question, I guess. Is that an intentional oversight to extend powers to Ministers? Does the Minister accept that it\u2019s a BORA issue and would she want to have a look at it and maybe close it up if it is, or is it something that happened unintentionally? I think it would be important to have some more legal questions on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EI\u2019m just laying out what the substance of the policy question is, which is about the impact of this section and schedule on situations where existing conditions have been imposed on people and are now swapped out and there are broader powers for conditions to be made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb91be9263bf49b7a0d9f95d8dfe2009\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb91be9263bf49b7a0d9f95d8dfe2009\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Perhaps just to add some detail to the issue that Ingrid Leary is raising, I wanted to compare the two separate powers\u2014so the existing power to impose conditions, versus what\u2019s being proposed here to impose conditions\u2014because they are different. So the current power is under section 320(1). The language there is that \u201Cthe conditions imposed on release may be any conditions that the Judge thinks fit to impose in the circumstances, including all or any of the following:\u201D. It then lists three quite specific potential conditions that can be imposed. So applying the rules of statutory interpretation, ejusdem generis says that the general word shall not extend in its effect beyond the subjects that are listed. In this case, again, while it appears to be broad power, it\u2019s actually listing three very specific circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThe new power, which, again, Part 4 is referencing for these people who already have conditions imposed on them under section 320, is new section 324F, inserted by clause 40. Now, in that new power, it feels like much more of what I would call a God grant. So the power\u2019s very broad. It says in subsection (3) \u201Cmay impose any other condition that the Judge thinks fit to impose in the circumstances, including,\u201D\u2014and then it uses the words\u2014\u201Cwithout limitation\u201D. Those are the key words here, because it says to me that the powers to grant conditions are much broader than those foreseen in the current legislation, where the three specific instances, if you like, are listed quite explicitly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThen you go from there to the section 7 advice to the Attorney-General, which does examine whether this is a reasonable limitation on freedom of movement and association generally. It concludes that they are. So, again, no section 7 New Zealand Bill of Rights Act vet. However, it doesn\u2019t consider the circumstances where you could have someone who had been detained, partially because of criminal offending, had conditions imposed on them under current section 320, and once this bill passes into law, would have new conditions put on them on the basis of their past offending. Now, that would potentially rub up against section 26(2) of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, which says, \u201CNo one who has been finally acquitted or convicted of, or pardoned for, an offence shall be tried or punished for it again.\u201D So the courts have taken quite a broad view in terms of what constitutes being punished. So certainly the imposition of further conditions could fall within the scope of what the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act is considering here. It just strikes me that it\u2019s not something that legal advisers turn their minds to and it\u2019s not articulated as an issue in the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003ESo at this committee of the whole House stage, I\u2019m just wanting to hear from the Minister whether she had turned her mind to these circumstances, and if someone had been convicted or acquitted or pardoned of something, whether that occurrence, if you like, could be considered as part of justifying the imposition of new conditions under this new section, under the new Act, that would not have been possible under current section 320.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022 data-id=\u0022ffac323c975e4c8e88909f7fd8377549\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ffac323c975e4c8e88909f7fd8377549\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I just think it\u2019s important to clarify that this part that we\u2019re talking about relates to the civil detention components, so criminal convictions and all of that stuff has nothing to do with this part. This is about the continuation of existing conditions and, therefore, variations of conditions that would occur under this, so it\u2019s a very different component.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6ad210562db453bb20b378d6d0b567b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6ad210562db453bb20b378d6d0b567b\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just have one question for the Associate Minister of Immigration on Schedule 2, so this is clause 58, \u201CConsequential amendment\u201D, in Part 3. In Schedule 2, it makes an amendment to the Search and Surveillance Act, particularly the item relating to section 293B, where we\u2019re looking at \u201Cmay apply for and execute warrant to enter a dwelling or marae and search for a person\u201D. I want to check with the Minister in terms of the scenario\u2014for example, because it says \u201Cdwelling or marae\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI want to check if \u201Cdwelling\u201D is based on the definition, if any, in the Search and Surveillance Act 2012, or are we looking at the definition of \u201Cdwelling\u201D that we have just seen in a previous part of this bill, which is clause 25, new subsection 286(3)? In that particular definition \u201Cdwelling\u201D, it does specify that \u201C\u00A0\u2018dwelling\u2019 means any building or part of a building that is used for residential accommodation of any kind, and includes a garage or shed associated with a building or part of the building\u201D. However, in both that definition of \u201Cdwelling\u201D as well as marae, you\u2019re looking at a fixed construct essentially, but not necessarily the grounds. So, for example, hypothetically speaking, if a person is in a tent either on the grounds of a property or within a precinct of a marae, does that mean that an immigration officer could not search that because it\u2019s neither a dwelling nor a marae?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022 data-id=\u0022a58e74ff5074494497641ddc136241ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a58e74ff5074494497641ddc136241ef\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ve got a specific question in relation to Schedule 2. One of the grey areas in relation to immigration officers\u2019 ability to enter different premises is in relation to faith-based institutions. I raise that because, quite a few years ago now\u2014this would have been under the previous National Government\u2014we did have, for example, some Indian students who were facing deportation. They were in the Unitary Church because that was one of the institutions that are often deemed to be out of touch for immigration officials.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f96f43b770540a599c021017dacc82d\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: If you\u2019re here illegally\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ade427f6ca434b7894f49c97af5fd560\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: What I\u2019m seeking clarification for is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ee8701a36f94f17943640b5fc1c1b2a\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014you should be sent home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249950b63801b4df5849fb0fae456d335\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014whether it\u2019s by convention\u2014pardon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1849477e51e4447833ed3f1daea55cd\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: If you\u2019re here illegally, it shouldn\u2019t matter where you\u2019re hiding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bbf3392be114e9ca1f56532cf646cbd\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: Well\u2014interesting. The member may wish to seek a contribution if he wants to challenge my question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EThe question here is about whether the current definition of \u201Cdwelling\u201D would include faith-based institutions. That is important because\u2014not just in New Zealand but, actually, across different jurisdictions\u2014faith-based institutions have been one of those areas that are seen as sort of safe havens for people who may be trying to, for example, resolve an appeal or even have a current appeal in front of a Minister or the Immigration and Protection Tribunal while they may be liable for deportation. I do want to understand how those institutions may be captured or otherwise under Schedule 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EI think clarification on that would be useful, because we do have a history of faith-based institutions being safe havens for migrants who may be appealing to the Minister, for example\u2014which is their right, despite what the heckles from the ACT Party might otherwise try to assume.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022 data-id=\u00226d85d84f21cd4bc9b3dd24ef3acc80ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d85d84f21cd4bc9b3dd24ef3acc80ef\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just wanted to make a brief contribution to clarify my earlier question to the Minister. I do understand that it\u2019s a civil regime, but my question was more in relation to the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, section 26(2), which is about a second punishment, and that punishment could be a civil punishment. A second punishment, even if it\u2019s a civil punishment, then touches on section 26(2) if the decision maker is bearing in mind a prior conviction or a prior acquittal or a prior pardon as part of their decision making to impose the civil punishment. In this case, the civil punishment would be the imposition of those further conditions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270ed52c2243745f285c14a2d3413a86a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5e4e71a1dfb4346a242259ed1f61eb7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270ed52c2243745f285c14a2d3413a86a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5e4e71a1dfb4346a242259ed1f61eb7\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00221764b5537ee54e39a9a228d72d77ed5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221764b5537ee54e39a9a228d72d77ed5f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister\u2019s just taking some advice so I\u2019ll just see if the Minister wants to take a call first before I take a motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9a62b0c991440f3bb5d44b0239df343\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9a62b0c991440f3bb5d44b0239df343\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, I think we\u2019re getting back again\u2014it\u2019s not a civil punishment. This is a detention process that is being managed in the immigration process that we\u2019re talking about. This is not a punishment; it\u2019s a detention process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022 data-id=\u00223e6bade93e1e4d518fbda15c746dbd56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e6bade93e1e4d518fbda15c746dbd56\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225147255fe36b4f14a1a217ed9d406932\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022299d1167320749f5b9863a1b0e3c4299\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11;New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224057d4695cf548f4bd1d5a718dbb940d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11;New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f4ea14f2d965465fbecb64d188de7796\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11;New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220349e278b61244998e6e5f122694ff10\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00226cb282f98fd8456aa734704a97f50a39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226cb282f98fd8456aa734704a97f50a39\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to our final debate\u2014clauses 1 to 3. This is the debate on \u201CTitle\u201D, \u201CCommencement\u201D, and \u201CPrincipal Act\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022 data-id=\u00226a9ab91dd41e4005b2fe3ae285e1291e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a9ab91dd41e4005b2fe3ae285e1291e\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to start with some questions regarding the commencement, because what we see in the Amendment Paper today is that clause 2(3) refers to a number of sections which will not come into effect until the first anniversary of Royal assent, and the rest of the Act comes into effect upon Royal assent. When I look at those sections, they relate specifically to the electronic monitoring system. We are really happy with the changes in the Amendment Paper around safeguarding people so that electronic monitoring is not used as a form of detention and that it has been narrowed, and it is on that basis and from the Education and Workforce Committee work and the understanding that electronic monitoring was one of the biggest issues for us that we have supported this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EI just want to seek clarification from the Minister and I apologise that I\u2019m asking for some context here, but it is an Amendment Paper that we saw today. Does this mean that there will be a transitional period of about a year where the limiting of the electronic monitoring provisions will not be in effect, and what does that mean if there were to be a mass arrival in that time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EI would like to remind the committee that the reason Labour is not fixated but very concerned about electronic monitoring is because of the international conventions and legal principles, which include the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the 1951 convention relating to the status of refugees, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. They all basically say that deprivation of liberty should only be used as a last resort, if at all, and that electronic monitoring should not be seen as arbitrary, that it shouldn\u2019t be a digital shackle. It talks about privacy concerns, vulnerability, and the issue that the Minister has mentioned herself in some ways when she talked about immigration detention being different from criminalisation and from civil punishment, and yet there is this blurring around the edges. The overwhelming message in international law and best practice is that the goal should be to manage individuals in the community through less intrusive means wherever possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003ENow, because this Amendment Paper is quite new, it may not have the effect that I think it has, and in that case, I\u2019d like to know what effect it does have, but it just feels like there is now a separation of when everything will come into effect. So you\u2019ve got the original amendment from Royal assent and then you\u2019ve got the subsequent amendments that have come in that limit the intrusion into people\u2019s rights that are going to take longer, if I am reading that correctly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThat might explain, then, why my Amendment Paper on sections 40A and 40B was declined, but in the absence of that, what is the situation in that transition period? And even if I am not interpreting that correctly, it still does cause some confusion, clearly for me as a parliamentarian, but probably more so for people trying to work out what the arrangement is around electronic monitoring and the different time frames. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EA subsequent question which is similar, and I won\u2019t dwell on it, is the other period of time which talks about some of the sections\u2014I won\u2019t read them all out\u2014coming into force three months after Royal assent. What is the rationale for that and what is the advice around\u2014clearly there\u2019s been some advice, I would assume, to have these different milestones coming in. Hopefully, they are to support the human rights of people. They may well be to make sure that the regime is set up adequately to be able to cope with an influx of people. My concern is that if there isn\u2019t a system and process in place that assures the limiting of the electronic monitoring provisions that we are so keen on in Labour, and which is part of why we are supporting the bill as it\u2019s currently being drafted up to the amendment, then we\u2019d like to hear from the Minister exactly what that looks like, for clarity. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022 data-id=\u002268316b8f21eb4c76b033263996c2fd8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268316b8f21eb4c76b033263996c2fd8c\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, I think, just for clarification, the delays in the commencement of the electronic monitoring relate purely as you sort of suggest in your outline. It\u2019s about establishing the systems and processes to ensure that all of that system is place\u2014it is a complex system\u2014to ensure it\u2019s done right. So it\u2019s that 12-month period to ensure all of the contracting and the system is set up in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0aa68c0b30742e2be1cf33290d00308\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0aa68c0b30742e2be1cf33290d00308\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Subsequent to that, then, is it correct to understand that the electronic monitoring may still take place but with the much broader incursion into the rights of people who might be detained under the mass arrivals provision, or will there be no electronic system in place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8e92bb625264e64abe2dfa551307ff0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8e92bb625264e64abe2dfa551307ff0\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have two questions, one on the title, which is: considering that the bill actually increases the number of people who would be liable for deportation, does she think that the title accurately describes the bill to a layperson watching this debate? Because otherwise, who is the system supposed to keep the integrity for? This term of \u201Csystem integrity\u201D is used as a catch-all phrase. I think it\u2019s interesting because I remember the Minister of Customs herself in the second reading criticised, I think, our party for talking about slogans. But I think system integrity is actually a relatively broad term that I think can be weaponised. So I\u2019m curious to know as to whether the reality that the actual provisions from this bill\u2014and this bill actually has quite a few different moving parts\u2014whether the title actually, genuinely describes what the bill does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003ENow, on the commencement, I did want to ask also on the provisions which will come into effect on the first anniversary of Royal assent in relation to electronic monitoring. Has the Minister received any advice around, for example, the procuring of the devices that would be needed to be able to adequately implement this bill and whether part of the one-year period would be to also, for example, procure those devices? Has she already started work or to receive advice in that regard; if so, what is it? Because I kind of can see that the one-year gap could be also to sort out some of these devices that would be needed. If that is the case, how many devices is the Government looking at procuring in order to be able to make sure that once we reach the first anniversary of Royal assent, should there be this mass arrival that we\u2019ve been told that we need to prepare for\u2014despite kind of no substantiation of evidence that it is coming\u2014we\u2019ll actually be ready; if so, will a year be sufficient to adequately prepare and procure the necessary devices?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022 data-id=\u0022612f569c2da441759c29509f726649d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022612f569c2da441759c29509f726649d0\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Just in terms of the previous question, the electronic monitoring wouldn\u2019t come into effect until 12 months so there wouldn\u2019t be any interim electronic monitoring system in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00227b25fff61fb6415283fe1e80cb47f021\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b25fff61fb6415283fe1e80cb47f021\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Ingrid Leary had previously stood up to make a call, so I\u2019ll take a call from Ingrid Leary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022237ab5eeff3c4174bbbad969b7dc7cc2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022237ab5eeff3c4174bbbad969b7dc7cc2\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. It\u2019s just around the title as well. As I previously noted, there\u2019s a kind of strange twinning of the \u201Cmass arrivals\u201D part of this bill and also the \u201Cfiscal sustainability and system integrity\u201D part. What we heard from the previous Minister in the chair was that the fiscal sustainability part actually relates, in a very narrow way, to levies that respond to visa applications, essentially, and the funding of health and education and making that a little bit fairer but also being able to extend the powers of it. The system integrity part probably relates to both, including the mass arrivals part. I just wondered if it would be clearer if the title should read \u201CImmigration (Visa, Fiscal Sustainability and System Integrity) Amendment Bill\u201D, just to get the word \u201Cvisa\u201D in there so that, when we\u2019re looking at those sections about the levies and all of that, we\u2019re not going to get confused and think that that relates to mass arrivals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EIn some ways, it probably should have been in a separate bill. If we could add that into the title, then it\u2019s very clear to us that, under Part 2, which talks about fiscal sustainability, that levy section is very narrowly focused. We would expect, if we want to look at the affordability of what is being proposed\u2014and I do think it will be value for money because, ultimately, it\u2019s going to save money down the track, but we\u2019re not going to be looking into this bill for that affordability. It\u2019s been made clear to us that things like policing, the airports being stepped up to be able to cope with this kind of system, and the training that\u2019s required would come from general taxation and not from here. That\u2019s not very clear from the title at the moment. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed9e1685fc404f218fc4b85857ae36de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed9e1685fc404f218fc4b85857ae36de\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227d35f6f268c74541a0316ba9c4cacaea\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00229d0967b357784e619e850664cdd40028\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d0967b357784e619e850664cdd40028\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022695d3de3192847588435790dd7e490f9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b9d86d4a7d284874a0832dfe1a5124b0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11;New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00229178133d39634e8a90a65a4372e8d7ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229178133d39634e8a90a65a4372e8d7ff\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to clause 2 set out on Amendment Paper 445 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022917ab1fec1fe48f6a5e509c9851e02b8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11;New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002259979bfcd9b64fc4b42e9cb2bc142bb1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259979bfcd9b64fc4b42e9cb2bc142bb1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 2 amending subclause (1) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220b1efe23db5b4531addbd359e43590ca\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022eed836593d3b444a8bbe701e8ffd61b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eed836593d3b444a8bbe701e8ffd61b6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 2 inserting new subclause (2AA) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c7e9f425c887417681904f5753da066b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229cb8dc2736eb4a939094c76224052443\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11;New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002233c53acb396a467b9439f9cf183173dc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11;New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002247a3cac57a434e84a6ea8d9a52afe706\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247a3cac57a434e84a6ea8d9a52afe706\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I will report this bill with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00221a9f2b1a825b454594e9add7c486f53f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a9f2b1a825b454594e9add7c486f53f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Immigration (Fiscal Sustainability and System Integrity) Amendment Bill and reports it with amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022f45ba108a25149cfb6174817c077a644\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f45ba108a25149cfb6174817c077a644\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002214060c04b306443198e787590a541042\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u002265cd7565858b4f9588422a1c38dea5f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265cd7565858b4f9588422a1c38dea5f4\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Minister for Courts)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Immigration: I move, That the Immigration (Fiscal Sustainability and System Integrity) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EThis bill is an important step forward for New Zealand\u2019s immigration system and supports the Government\u2019s broader priorities of driving economic growth and attracting the skills New Zealand needs to thrive. A strong, fair, and responsive immigration system is essential to delivering on our ongoing Going For Growth plan, supporting businesses, and ensuring New Zealand remains an attractive destination for talent and for investment. Immigration is vital to our economic and social prosperity, and this legislation helps to strengthen the foundations of a system that New Zealanders can have confidence in. It ensures that our settings continue to be fair, transparent, and fit for purpose in a changing world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EThis bill is important to ensure that compliance and detention settings are more balanced and transparent to better align our provisions with the recommendations of the Casey KC and Heron KC reviews, strengthen both immigration risk settings and the protection of migrants from exploitation, enable the immigration system to respond to challenges with greater flexibility, and allow the cost of the immigration system to be recovered more fairly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EThe bill delivers on these objectives through a series of targeted, sensible reforms. It introduces stronger safeguards for vulnerable people, including a higher threshold for the detention of asylum seekers and judicial oversight of out-of-hours compliance activity. These changes respond directly to the recommendations of Victoria Casey KC and Michael Heron KC, made in their independent reviews, and they reflect our commitment to transparency and accountability. It also addresses migrant exploitation by creating a new offence for charging premiums for employment offers. Charging for job offers is already illegal under New Zealand law, but it only applies when the victim is an employee here; it does not cover people who are extorted but who never arrive, or who arrive to find that the job offer has evaporated. This awful practice is causing real harm and is undermining trust in our immigration system. By closing these legislative gaps, we can prosecute more cases and send a clear message that exploitation is not tolerated in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EThe bill strengthens immigration risk settings by clarifying deportation liability for residence class visa holders who commit serious offences and by enabling the cancellation of resident status in those very rare cases where a person poses a significant security risk but cannot be deported immediately. These measures protect the integrity of our system while respecting our human rights obligations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EFlexibility is another key feature of this bill. It allows the Minister to respond quickly and fairly to unusual events, such as airline disruptions or natural disasters, where large groups of people are stranded in New Zealand. This ensures that our system can adapt to real-world challenges without unnecessary bureaucracy or costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EI know there have been concerns expressed about the potential for overuse of those powers, but I\u2019m very confident about the scrutiny and transparency provisions in the bill. The Education and Workforce Committee further slightly raised the bar regarding ministerial consideration. The Minister will have to certify that an exercise of the power is reasonably necessary to address the situation, and that it is a very appropriate addition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EFinally, the bill futureproofs immigration funding by creating options to share costs more fairly and sustainably across those who benefit from, or create risks for, the immigration system, or\u2014with appropriate safeguards, including consultation\u2014those who benefit from services in the wider community. Amendment Paper 445, passed by the House, made minor and technical changes that will ensure the workability of the electronic monitoring provisions. I look forward to those provisions being available. Electronic monitoring, where it is practicable, will be a very positive alternative for people who would otherwise have to be held in corrections remand facilities. There is a lot of work for both the Minister\u2019s officials and corrections officials to operationalise electronic monitoring, which is why those aspects of this amendment bill will not come into effect until a year after Royal assent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EI would like to acknowledge the many submitters who engaged in the select committee process; their insights have strengthened the legislation. Also, on behalf of the Minister of Immigration, the Minister is very grateful to the Education and Workforce Committee, which undertook a thorough and thoughtful review, ensuring the bill reflects robust policy and serves the public interest. She also thanks her parliamentary colleagues for their constructive debate and careful consideration throughout all stages of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EThis is a balanced, forward-looking package of reforms that will help New Zealand manage risk, protect migrants, and maintain confidence in the integrity of our immigration system. I\u2019m proud to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002254b19bb5b3094a8ca74ec35948d98b86\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002254b19bb5b3094a8ca74ec35948d98b86\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022 data-id=\u00229555e317497146759ac292c47c86ca6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229555e317497146759ac292c47c86ca6d\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. This bill is not perfect. The Labour Party would have preferred to see stronger safeguards\u2014that is, clearer limits expressed in the legislation and stronger judicial oversight\u2014on the new powers that allow the Minister of the day to cancel a residence visa of someone who is categorised as threat to national security; on the use of electronic monitoring; on the conduct of out-of-hours compliance visits, otherwise known as dawn raids; and, perhaps most importantly, on the detention of asylum seekers. But, on balance, we took the view that the positives in this bill\u2014judicial oversight on the detention of asylum seekers, a new, bespoke regime that recognises the particular vulnerability of asylum seekers; the out-of-hours compliance regime, which requires a warrant of commitment; and a much stronger and clearer offence in law for people who seek or receive a premium for a job in order to get a visa as one of the ways of combating the exploitation of migrant workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EOn the other elements in the bill\u2014the extended levy-making powers; the ability to cancel the visa of someone who\u2019s classed as a threat to national security; the flexible powers, that is, the ability for the Minister to make a special direction for a whole class of people; and the provision around deportation and criminal offending\u2014on all of those, Labour took the view that they, on balance, are probably useful and helpful additions to the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EWhy is this bill important? Well, around the world right now, immigration policy is a political dumpster fire. Right-wing populist parties in so many countries, but including in the United States and across Europe, have campaigned against and demonised refugees and migrants. Sadly, they have succeeded in so many places. Political parties who were once committed to the 1951 refugee convention are now engaged in a race to the bottom. It distresses me to see the UK Labour Party and other European social democratic parties engaging in that race.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003ENew Zealand needs immigration. The demographic modelling is very clear; we can\u2019t survive in the same political and economic form without more young, skilled, energetic, hard-working migrants coming here and helping us develop this country. We have so many industries that have structural labour shortages. We need migrants, and we need to get better at getting them here to make new lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003ERespect for human rights, the 1951 refugee convention, is part of the modern history of this country. The values that underpin it\u2014welcoming people who are escaping genocide and persecution to come here and make successful lives and become great New Zealanders\u2014are absolutely at the heart of who we are as a people. It pains me to see parties like New Zealand First in this Parliament deliberately mimicking the corrosive and devise anti-migrant rhetoric of the UK Reform party. When you add to that attention seekers like Brian Tamaki openly and deliberately using racist, anti-migrant rhetoric in a desire to get a few more dollars in the collection plate\u2014this kind of political rhetoric gives permission to the racists to divide our society and do damage to our democracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EIn my view, the best thing that we can do as a country and as a Parliament is to strengthen, not weaken, our adherence and commitment to international human rights standards; secondly, to be constantly improving and fine tuning the immigration system in a way that makes it clear to the public that the system is fair, it is well administered in the interests of the people of this country, and, of course, of migrants, to retain that public confidence in the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EIt is incredibly important, in this Parliament and in New Zealand\u2019s society, that the centre holds; that we maintain a consensus\u2014hopefully, a cross-party consensus\u2014in this Parliament that New Zealand needs migrants, that we are better for migration, that migrants make an overwhelmingly positive contribution to our country, and that we need to get better at welcoming them, helping them settle here and become great New Zealanders. How we welcome newcomers and how we make them feel and how well we assist them to settle goes to the heart of our values as New Zealanders and who we are as a nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234c4574beb9141e08f1b6c3ed3c80aa8\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022caaa97c99e5a411ebeaa3767204be36a\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Apologies, I was just taking attention to some detail. Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022 data-id=\u0022232f8a1d07fc40cb86022758539fc66d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022232f8a1d07fc40cb86022758539fc66d\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. We have more in common with asylum seekers and migrant workers than we do with billionaires and politicians on the other side of the House who seek to divide our communities and hand out billions of dollars to landlords, the fossil fuel industries, and the tobacco industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EThis is a Trojan Horse of a bill, because, for all the virtue signalling that we have heard from the previous members, the reality is that this bill is diminishing the rights of migrants and it also expands the liability of deportation for migrant communities. It also keeps painting refugees as though they are a security threat. When we hear narratives about the integrity of our immigration system and how important it is to manaaki migrants, why don\u2019t these politicians, from whichever side of the House they come from, focus on genuinely improving the human rights of migrants, which, by the way, are not even recognised adequately in our Immigration Act, because the policies that come out of the Immigration Act are, effectively, exempt from the Human Rights Act. Migrants are actually not adequately protected in legislation when it comes to their human rights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s really important to put it on the record that what this bill does is it creates additional tools for the Minister to, effectively, deport migrants. To say that this is about protecting migrants by, yep, adding an additional charge for charging premiums offshore and criminalising that while, at the very same time, gutting the supports that exploited migrants can receive is a joke. This is not a Government that takes migrant exploitation seriously, because, if they did, they would not have been cutting the length of time that someone can be on the migrant exploitation protection visa. It is simply not a serious Government when it comes to migrant exploitation and treating our migrant communities with the respect and dignity that they deserve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EOn the Government side, we have had the New Zealand First party scapegoating migrant communities left, right, and centre. In fact, their whole whakapapa of a party has been on scapegoating migrant communities. On the other side, we have had the ACT Party, who have continuously scapegoated refugees and painted them as a security threat. Then, we\u2019ve got National, who have not hesitated to use the language of the far right when it comes to \u201Copening the floodgates\u201D, in their language. I do want to say I\u2019m incredibly disappointed that the Labour Party continues to support this kind of legislation, but, then again, I remember that as the Greens we have been fighting against unjust deportations, whether it\u2019s a Labour or National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EThe truth is that this came off the back of a mass arrivals bill that was not supported by human rights organisations. Introduced by the previous Labour Government\u2014who refused to listen to the voices of human rights organisations who said, \u201CWhy this bill?\u201D\u2014they said, \u201CBecause we\u2019ve got to prepare.\u201D; in the same way the Government side has said, \u201CWe have got to prepare for mass arrivals.\u201D But do you know what they have not prepared for? Our underfunded health system, our education system that is struggling to keep up with the needs of students, and our public housing stock. They prefer to use slogans of getting prepared for mass arrivals by boats or planes that have never happened and have not been able to be substantiated as an imminent threat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EThe things that we do know we have to prepare for, they have failed to adequately resource. They have gutted our public housing infrastructure. They have gutted the ability for us to have inter-regional rail so that we can connect our towns and cities. Instead, they have given billions of dollars to the wealthy few and the companies that are wrecking our environment and our planet. If they are so serious about preparing for the actual risks that our country faces, they would be turning their heads to issues around infrastructure and the cost of living and the climate crisis, not this bill that seeks to continue treating migrant communities as a security threat, when most asylum seekers are actually lacking adequate support for them to be adequately settled in our communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003ETo use one horrid attack in West Auckland as the one example to justify stripping residency from asylum seekers is honestly disgusting. We saw charities on the ground, as well as advocates, including a former Labour Party MP from a refugee background, who at the time rightfully pointed out that that attack should absolutely not be used to diminish the rights of asylum seekers. What do we have now? A bill that seeks to strip residency status from people who may have sought asylum if they are deemed to be a security threat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EWhen we talk about a security threat, it\u2019s also disingenuous for the Government members to point to issues around terrorism, again, pretending that refugees pose a terrorist threat to our country. The definition of \u201Csecurity\u201D in our legislation also includes issues in relationship to reputational damage, effectively, to our country, which could be weaponised against our communities. We have seen that in the past in the way that black and Middle Eastern communities have been weaponised and targeted by politicians on the other side of the House. Not that long ago in the previous National Government, we saw an Opposition that was also quite willing to scapegoat Asian communities for a housing crisis that we were experiencing\u2014the political football of targeting migrants and refugees and using that as a distraction to not deal with the serious issues that we have at the time, like housing, like healthcare, which is actually supported by countless migrant workers, who simply want to be treated with respect and dignity and yet are experiencing unsafe staffing conditions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EAdditionally, this bill seeks to try and remediate the cuts that the Government has made to our public services, like health and education, by charging migrants levies without recognising that migrant workers already contribute disproportionately to the tax base to the services that we all need and use. Why? Because migrants, especially in the first few years of being here in this country, are unable to access many of these services that we all need, yet they\u2019re contributing in tax. Now, the Government, after gutting our healthcare system, after gutting our infrastructure, and instead passing that on to the wealthy few\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022632998c9c3f7444d8f7aa39b278cf408\u0022\u003EHon Casey Costello\u003C/span\u003E: Repetition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1689def80814102900434c0cdf299f6\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014have chosen to put in place levies. It\u2019s interesting that Casey Costello, who tends to just use Philip Morris\u2019 lines, says, \u201CRepetition\u201D, when, actually, in her contributions in relationship to this bill, she has failed to own up to the fact that her own leader has had a career of scapegoating migrants and refugees. All that she has said during her contributions has been slogans and completely frivolous contributions that do not address the issues in front of us. It\u2019s actually disgusting that we have a New Zealand First Party that is quite happy to form a coalition with a National Party, who shows up to ethnic community events and does not own up to the fact that they have decided to form an agreement with the most anti-migrant, anti-refugee party in this Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EThe Green Party, instead of causing division by targeting migrant communities, is committing to taxing the wealthy few so that we can all have dignified lives, so that we can fund the public services that our communities need, instead of charging levies through this bill to make up for the cuts that they have made because they have realised they\u2019re now having to make up for the shortfall due to the billions of dollars they have handed out to landlords and tobacco companies and the fossil fuel industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to electronic monitoring, it\u2019s easy to say that it\u2019s a better alternative to detention when it comes to mass arrivals when it was, once again, parties on both sides who supported having a mass arrivals regime. We tried to add additional protections for people subjected to electronic monitoring during the committee of the whole House stage. We tried to put in an amendment to exempt children from being subjected to electronic monitoring and that was not supported by the Government side. What that tells me is that they seem quite happy to have children escaping some of the most harrowing conditions that one can ever imagine being subjected to policies like electronic monitoring.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EThis Government paints these issues of asylum seekers as though we are receiving a huge amount of asylum seeking claims, but last year we had one asylum seeking case per 10 days. That\u2019s a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny fraction compared to the claims that countries like Canada, the US, and the UK see\u2014extremely small amount compared to others. What we have as a country instead is an opportunity to boost the support systems and the judiciary, who can often help process those very same claims so that asylum seekers can be processed in a dignified manner, as opposed to pushing forward legislation that simply increases the liability of deportation and pretends that the Government cares about migrant exploitation, when every other action that they have taken tells us the exact opposite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EFor example, they could have decoupled work visas from single employers to give migrant workers better mobility for when they are in exploitative situations, and they have chosen not to do so. Once again, the Green Party will keep fighting to hold both major parties to account for their policies on immigration and their track record of, when things get tough, pointing the finger at migrants instead of addressing the reality that we\u2019ve got billionaires hoarding up a stupid amount of wealth at the expense of our communities and property speculators who continue making a buck while people go without. The Green Party does not support this bill and will fight to overhaul our immigration system so that it genuinely puts human rights at the centre of decision making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022 data-id=\u002208136708363e42778c65178b2409cd3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208136708363e42778c65178b2409cd3a\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I don\u2019t know which bill that member was talking about, but I\u2019m taking this call on the Immigration (Fiscal Sustainability and System Integrity) Amendment Bill. I\u2019m taking this call on behalf of ACT to support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003EWe know that immigration is important to our nation, but immigration doesn\u2019t mean open borders for anyone and everyone. I know that is what the Green Party wants\u2014open borders for anyone and everyone. They don\u2019t care about national security. They don\u2019t care about the safety of our communities. They don\u2019t care about an immigration system supporting our economic activity. They don\u2019t care about those things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dec13bad2868472da703b0d1254f17a5\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226288c9d43a704f909e4932331c31eb4c\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR\u003C/span\u003E: All they want is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264ac2c98afea40d880e453eb78fb2d94\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: I take personal offence at the imputation that we don\u2019t care about national security. I take offence at the comment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248ee3210961745b2a76004316f9a74de\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: You can\u2019t take personal offence on behalf of a group of people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c5d1d6b89a14523b95a6f3445a5d870\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: I take personal offence. I\u2019m part of the group that was mentioned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8424af5f2d045a2ad6ea92960c1e827\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Wait for a sec. I\u2019ll just take some advice from the Clerk. OK, so the advice I have received is that, because this is a wide-ranging debate and the member himself has been wide-ranging in his comments as well, in terms of his references to other political parties, that is also afforded to other political parties to be wide-ranging. But I would ask the House to not be personal in your comments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022226334ca5306499b8e15d6d03284d408\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Resuming from where I left off, we do really care about national security. We care about supporting our economy, and we do care about supporting our community. We want to see that our immigration system is healthy and that it\u2019s not compromising the safety of our communities or the safety of our nation. That is why we want to see that our borders are managed in the way we need to. We are learning new things in the immigration system, and we know that people are applying different kinds of mechanisms. They are becoming really innovative to dodge the system, so we have to keep up and we have to make sure that our legislation is able to keep up as well. That is why this bill is so important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003EThe other thing the Green member spoke about is the exploitation visa. He is concerned about the exploitation visa. On this side, we are trying to stop exploitation. We are actually working on the root problem rather than creating the problem and then seeing how we can solve that problem which has been created and let that problem be created on an even bigger scale. We don\u2019t want that problem to be created on a bigger scale, but we want to see that we are minimising that problem, and that is why we are ensuring this bill goes through, which is about the integrity of our immigration system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003EThese policies are great\u2014good policies are good\u2014but if there are no compliance checks, there is no point in having good policies. That is why we have put some provisions in this for compliance checks as well. But, yes, of course, for out-of-hours warrants for compliance checks, there is going to be additional oversight through this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003EThe final point I want to make\u2014I\u2019m not going through all the changes that this bill is making. The other point which I\u2019m really happy to see in this bill is that we know that a lot of people, those who misuse our immigration system to bring people from overseas, those who really want to be here in New Zealand who can\u2019t come through the normal legal channels so they are enticed to pay for a job offer which doesn\u2019t exist\u2014so these people, those who pay for those jobs, come here to New Zealand; they are not filling the genuine gap that we have in our businesses. They are here as surplus people, I would say, because they just want to be here in New Zealand and we want to stop that activity\u2014charging premiums. Whether it happens here or it happens overseas, that needs to be stopped, and we want to see that our immigration system is bringing people\u2014those who are genuinely filling a gap in our economic activity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003EOverall, I would say it\u2019s a great bill, and any party that cares about our immigration system being a sound system should support this bill. The ACT Party is really happy to support this. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022 data-id=\u0022effb2e9a257746aa8c9ecb409cf94ce2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022effb2e9a257746aa8c9ecb409cf94ce2\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on the Immigration (Fiscal Sustainability and System Integrity) Amendment Bill. New Zealand First has always stood for a sustainable immigration system that serves the interests of our people and safeguards the vulnerable ones from exploitation. Before entering this House, I was actively involved in both investigation and advocating for exploited migrants, and I was invoking a lot of resource and energy in terms of providing the protections from exploitation that immigrants often need to have. It is from this experience that I appreciate how important these pieces of legislation are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dd8e3373a1e7446bb28d6db4e8cab8ef\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First\u2019s manifesto has consistently emphasised the need for integrity in the immigration system and a fairer cost sharing so that New Zealanders are not unfairly burdened. This allows the system to be sustainable. It is important in this House that we stand on our record of what we\u2019ve delivered and how we\u2019ve achieved for the betterment of this system, and I think this piece of legislation will deliver exactly that. We have a track record that shows we are committed to ensuring that exploitation is eradicated from our country, that our immigration system is sustainable, fair, and transparent, and that we are prepared for any event should we need to address the fairness of our system. Therefore, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022746528ca06df47de92b3c06c0c80be8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022746528ca06df47de92b3c06c0c80be8a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Just for clarity for the House, if Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori is not here, that call drops down to the bottom and people compete for it at the end. It will then go to the next call, and this is a split call with Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori and the Green Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6e83c3807704f74815c65fafb6d20f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6e83c3807704f74815c65fafb6d20f1\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. This is a shameful bill, and we are proud as the only party in Parliament that opposes this particular bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does is it creates fear. It wants to divide and conquer and create a distraction from the fact that this Government and successive Governments have not put enough funding into our core infrastructure and public systems. This is creating an ICE-lite of the US by saying, \u201CYou know what? We don\u2019t want the judiciary to actually exercise discretion\u2014the legal experts of this country to exercise discretion\u2014what we want, instead, is to make sure that that power is held with Immigration New Zealand, so that way, they can deport people as they wish.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThe fact that they have changed the language from \u201Cconvicted\u201D into \u201Cguilty\u201D and also \u201Cfound guilty\u201D as well as \u201Cpleaded guilty\u201D is shameful. Legal experts have submitted to say that the status quo is sufficient. The broadening is not going to be\u2014and there\u2019s no evidence to say that the broadening of this is going to be\u2014good. This is not going to be a bill that is going to be palatable for my communities, because my communities are the ones who are going to be affected\u2014not someone who, apparently, says that they will categorically support the bill for their leader, just to turn around and say they don\u2019t support it two days later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThis is a bill that just basically says that we don\u2019t trust the law and order system that we have here in Aotearoa. We don\u2019t trust the decision of the judges\u2014unless the judge is taking a punitive approach, in which case, you know what, they are doing a great job! What this bill does is look at punishing children. It is going to make sure that people who have already suffered from trauma are going to be further traumatised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EAs we are seeing in this bill, we are seeing that hap\u016B and iwi have not been consulted as a part of this. Te Tiriti is not a part of this. There is no part of this bill that talks about manaakitanga as a core principle of the Treaty of Waitangi, because when people are coming here, rather than taking the approach that we should be taking, instead, we\u2019re saying \u201CDon\u2019t you dare do anything. Don\u2019t you dare express the fact that you have also suffered trauma.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EWe have just recently seen what we have done in terms of the abuse in State care. The Greens have also been incredibly vocal of the fact that we want to break some of these vicious cycles that we\u2019re seeing. Yet, in this bill, we\u2019re seeing that same level of care, that same level of understanding, has not been extended to asylum seekers, to refugees, to migrants\u2014and the fact that every other party in Parliament is supporting this, which is shameful. All of you are happy to go to meetings and community events and celebrations and pose with ethnic communities to get a photo, to get their vote, but when the time comes to speak for, or on behalf of, our communities, you shy away; you stay silent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EYou know what, this is something that is going to create a double tax system. You\u2019re saying that migrants are coming here, they are working, they are residents, they are doing all this, they are paying tax dollars\u2014but that is not good enough for you; they should be paying an additional levy on top of it because they are putting our health system and public education system in burden. You know what? So does decades\u2014decades\u2014of underfunding in the education and health systems. That is why that is. Stop scapegoating my communities\u2014stop scapegoating my communities. Seriously, this is something that we have seen over and again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThe previous speaker, Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March, has spoken about the fact that we are seeing these sorts of bills coming through regardless of who is in power. During the committee of the whole House stage, people in this very party\u2014regardless of who you are\u2014have raised concerns over some parts, yet they still support this bill. They are happy with the fact that levies are going to be used not for the purpose of a levy but as an extra tax for migrant communities. That is shameful. At what part of this bill\u2014at what part of being a New Zealander\u2014is it OK for us to do that to one group? Why, at the same time as we\u2019re giving $2.9 billion to landlords, $200 million to offshore oil and gas, and $200\u00A0million to the tobacco industry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThe Greens will fight for migrants, and we will not support this bill\u2014and, apparently, we\u2019re the only party here who are willing to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022 data-id=\u00222db67a50f1034b0884782e7d3983bea3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222db67a50f1034b0884782e7d3983bea3\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Mr Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to speak on the final reading of this bill. I just want to again acknowledge the great work of the Education and Workforce Committee. We clearly did good work in terms of the amendments, and that was talked about both in the second reading and in the committee stage. Therefore, I want to commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022 data-id=\u002247f65e4b496d498298fb866528e20833\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247f65e4b496d498298fb866528e20833\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. First of all, I want to acknowledge the emotion in the House today, particularly from my Green colleagues, but also from my ACT colleagues, I think. Obviously, this is the kind of bill that that becomes an issue in, and I would suggest that it has, in fact, been a robust debate throughout, where really the whole issue and the issues in this bill have been canvassed robustly by this House, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re here to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EI support this bill, and I want to talk about why. The first thing I want to talk about is something that has not been talked a lot about but was talked about in the committee of the whole House stage, and that is the issue around premiums of employment. I\u2019m talking about that because I know a little bit about it from a practical level. When I was an employment lawyer, I had this case when I was relatively new to the profession. I had three Indian chefs who had been kicked out of their employment when they had attempted to join the union. The employer had kept their passports, and they were in a really difficult position with regard to immigration. We told their tale in what was, I think, the Employment Tribunal at the time, rather than the Employment Relations Authority, and we had an interpreter tell their tale. Their tale included that they had given premiums to the employer, and the tribunal member at the time dismissed this out of hand. They said, \u201CThat\u2019s just ridiculous. That wouldn\u2019t happen.\u201D The interpreter stepped out of the role as interpreter because he was so shocked. He said, \u201CExcuse me, sir, but this happens all the time. This is called \u2018bakshish\u2019\u2014this happens all the time.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EI look back on that case, because it had some other features that were pretty shocking. These guys were working 92.5 hours a week, they were working through dinner and lunch, and they were living on the premises. Their work was dismissed by the employer, who said they weren\u2019t really doing anything at all\u2014they were layabouts, and they were lying, etc. We had a contract that had a company seal for one price, which had been given to immigration, and a company seal on another price per week\u2019s work on another. The tribunal awarded an amount under the minimum wage for the first 40 hours but refused to allow any extra money for the extra hours worked, because there was no requirement under the law for that. These are the things that make relationships like that exploitative. I think back to that time, and I think, \u201CIf only we had taken it seriously\u2014if only that tribunal member had taken it seriously.\u201D Because it was outside of the norms and values of that time, the tribunal member just immediately sided in that way with the employer and thought that these people were lying and making it up. It was just beyond his experience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EI\u2019m glad to see the law catch up a little bit here, and it\u2019s a really good lesson for me. I think there would have been a lot less pain if we had taken it seriously. I think some of the concerns that the Green Party have expressed about exploitation are very real. We haven\u2019t nailed this one; there\u2019s a lot further that we can go to make sure that people are not trapped in exploitative situations as migrants in this country. There are other places we can go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EI think we have to come to this from a realistic point of view, and I wanted to talk about the other situation that I know a little bit about. That is the situation of the New Lynn stabbing. That was a situation where people knew that the person involved was radicalised; they knew he was very dangerous; he was an asylum seeker. They were in a very difficult situation. The judges were in a difficult situation with regard to him being\u2014I think he\u2019d spent more time in prison on remand than he could be kept on for. The police were in a really difficult situation, and I think they had two officers constantly tracking that man, because they were just waiting for the bomb to go off, basically. That would not only have cost people a lot of money doing that, but people were in real danger, and there was a real price to pay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EThese freedoms are very important to the Labour Party, in terms of making sure that there is a balance\u2014but there is a balance. There are victims in this situation\u2014and that\u2019s not scaremongering. It\u2019s something we have to be responsible about in this House. We have to think our way around really hard problems. We can\u2019t always stand on the moral high ground if there are going to be real victims in the situation. In that case, we didn\u2019t have the law right, and people paid a really high price. I think it\u2019s really important that we think around this and that we don\u2019t let our sense of moral rightness get in the way of looking around a problem. These are tough problems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EI want to come to probably the one I struggled with the most, which is the \u201Cmass arrivals\u201D. That\u2019s a hard thing to do\u2014it\u2019s really hard\u2014and we will have supporters, in the Labour Party, who will be upset by this and not think that we\u2019ve got it right. What I would say to those people, and to the ones who didn\u2019t support us who are in the same position, is that this is a piece of legislation that attempts, again, to deal with the reality of the situation. We are in a time of great crisis where people will travel a long way to get away from oppressive situations and from desperate economic situations\u2014they will take enormous risk\u2014and we will struggle to cope when they arrive on our shores, and we will do our best to make sure that they are treated justly in those situations. It won\u2019t be a case where we will close our eyes to that situation. These are very real predicaments that we face as a country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EI for one would like to see us take on a lot more refugees in this country and expand our definitions. I for one see that as being a pathway to reaching out to a world that\u2019s in crisis. I\u2019d love to do that, and I\u2019d like to put my actual energy into making sure that we actually do reach out to people in those countries\u2014not only to refugees coming to our own country but as supporters of their capacity to stay in their own countries. From what I understand, most refugees would actually rather be at home. That\u2019s their predominant wish\u2014to go home\u2014and I get that. I think that\u2019s really important. We need to not close ourselves off in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EI appreciate that we can be subject to a lot of forces at the moment that are quite evil\u2014they\u2019re quite fear-based. I don\u2019t intend to suddenly succumb to those kinds of fears, and I don\u2019t intend to encourage them in others, but I think it\u2019s incredibly important that we have a realistic law with realistic boundaries that actually helps protect that. People won\u2019t get fearful if they don\u2019t have examples of not feeling safe. That\u2019s a really important part of what we\u2019re doing here. We\u2019re assuring people that we learnt the lessons from something like the New Lynn situation, where we\u2019re responding to it because of the actual reality of the world we live in, which is not ideal. Not everybody is a saint.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5c789f523a4f6e999737053b828e66\u0022\u003EI am wanting to say that I think the debate in here over this bill has been robust. You saw how carefully my friend Ingrid Leary went through the bill and asked questions, and you have seen it be tenacious, but we\u2019ve ended up with a bill that we\u2019re supporting, and that\u2019s why we\u2019re not joining the Greens in opposition to the bill\u2014because this is reality. We hope that this bill deals with it, if not perfectly, then in a way that is thoughtful and is compassionate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022 data-id=\u0022d665f24f49b045909f52038a64ddd912\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d665f24f49b045909f52038a64ddd912\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022 data-id=\u00229f79352c72e24788996fb22ef701985c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f79352c72e24788996fb22ef701985c\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019d just, like others, acknowledge that this isn\u2019t an easy area to make policy in. We\u2019ve struck a few bills that have similar themes to this, much like the Crimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill that this House debated as well. It is a question of really looking at security interests and balancing those against the rights interests that clearly also exist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI do spend a fair amount of time speaking to parts of our migrant community and our former refugee community in Auckland. Whenever I\u2019m speaking about the immigration space, I find myself using the words \u201Cthe God grant\u201D when I talk about the discretion that the Minister has, and that\u2019s really because of two reasons: firstly, because the discretion itself, even under the current legislation, is incredibly broad. The Minister has really robust powers to make decisions without providing reasons in the current legislation. The other reason I call it a \u201CGod grant\u201D is because those powers have this impossible ability not just to affect the lives of individuals but to affect the lives of generations to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI think about when the Hon Phil Twyford was the Minister for Immigration and Kabul fell. Within days, our Government stood up a system to look at who needed to come to New Zealand urgently and set up a system of visas to do so. I think about the families that I know now who have children who will grow up as Kiwis\u2014so, again, \u201Cthe God grant\u201D seems like a fitting way to term these extraordinary powers in what is rather an extraordinary Act. We did, of course, the same with Ukraine, and there will be Ukrainian children who grow up as New Zealanders as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EAs it is \u201Cthe God grant\u201D, it\u2019s also \u201Cthe God grant\u201D when a Minister decides not to use their powers, as we\u2019ve seen here this term when the Minister hasn\u2019t set up a system in response to the humanitarian crisis and the unfolding genocide we\u2019ve seen in Gaza. Extraordinary discretionary powers, and probably, if you look at the set of legislation, some of the broadest powers that you will see in terms of how it can impact people\u2019s lives, which is why several of my amendments at committee stage tried to not provide an anchor on the discretion\u2014I would say they would provide more of a compass in terms of guiding the Minister\u2019s discretion, to direct the Minister to turn their mind to our obligations under the Genocide Convention, under international human rights law and humanitarian law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI say this all to make a very simple point, which is: although those amendments weren\u2019t accepted into the bill, those obligations still exist. As this bill becomes an Act, certainly on our side of the House, we will be looking to ensure that the Minister, when they\u2019re exercising discretion under these very broad \u201CGod grant\u201D powers, is turning their mind to international human rights law, humanitarian law, and our obligations under the rights system here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI raised a number of amendments trying to include them, but I also raised a point at the end about the imposition of conditions on people who were released into the community and that there was potentially some unfairness around that. The Minister\u2019s response was that that wasn\u2019t a penalty, and I was listening intently. I would just say that there is a trend, internationally, of recognition in some jurisdictions of the fact that even when something is framed as a civil penalty in the law, it can feel like a criminal penalty in truth. I know that that has happened, for example, in the US, where it\u2019s been said that labelling a sanction as a civil sanction is not determinative of its status, but also in Canada, where the Canadian Supreme Court has rejected the argument\u2014it also noted that it was possible, in some cases, for non-criminal sanctions to be considered punishment for the purpose of double jeopardy, and the same in the European Court. Those human rights interpretations, in my view, are also very, very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThe final thing I\u2019d say is that my view is that this is one of those bills that should be reviewed, and it should be reviewed very soon once we\u2019ve seen how it operates in the context of those human rights principles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229ad9f402f06844c586a6f2f904712412\u0022 data-id=\u0022d617ecdbc3f940b89dd8bc3b62989252\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ad9f402f06844c586a6f2f904712412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d617ecdbc3f940b89dd8bc3b62989252\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It would do well for one party in particular in this House to remember a tried and true saying: a failure to plan is a plan to fail. This bill is about planning. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022f297fb062b1445c9b5c663c654202a44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f297fb062b1445c9b5c663c654202a44\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Often when we\u2019re out in the electorate, we get asked as MPs why there isn\u2019t more cross-party collaboration. It\u2019s quite tricky sometimes to explain that if the Government of the day is setting an agenda and then expecting everyone to agree, that is not collaboration. However, today, I think as parliamentarians we can be proud that what we have seen is a truly cross-party collaboration and bipartisan journey that started actually under the previous Government and shows pretty good lawmaking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EI think that the indicator of that is that we\u2019ve landed on something that is not perfect, as the Hon Phil Twyford said, but it is something that probably all of us can live with\u2014apart, perhaps, from our friends in the Greens. When I look at the way they have characterised this debate, they have expressed moral outrage at what they see as an impingement on human rights and a targeting of immigrants. I don\u2019t share that view, but I do have to say that I was very suspicious of this bill when it was first discussed under our Government. What I wanted to know was, really, what is the problem we\u2019re trying to solve here? Is this something that is American or Trumpian in its intended impact? Is it hysterical or is there going to be a real problem?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EAs times have continued, we have seen continuing issues on the high seas involving asylum seekers and pirates. We have continued to see the huge immigration problems in Europe. Then, I\u2019m also reminded of our own recent history with the really unfortunate stabbing in Auckland. We must remember our immigrant communities, but we also must remember the communities that have been impacted by that event and the sovereign inability to deal with a very high-risk known situation. That is something that was a gap in our law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EWe can also go back to the Tampa scenario of 2001 when we did have a mass asylum, effectively, because there were the refugees on the Tampa, the Norwegian container ship that happened to be near Australian waters. There was an impending election in Australia. Those people were rejected from there and sent to Nauru. There were hundreds of people on board, and 43 children, and 133 of those were eventually accepted into New Zealand by the compassionate decision-making, in my view, of the then Prime Minister, the Rt Hon Helen Clark, who has talked about that event as one of her proudest decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EWhen we talk about the contribution of some of the people from these communities who have endured real hardship and been shown manaaki in New Zealand, we have Abbas Nazari, who went on to become an international scholar who settled in New Zealand. They have gone on to have families, as Vanushi Walters has said, so that we have descendants of people who have benefited from the manaakitanga that we have shown and who in turn have contributed immensely to our society\u2014the fabric of our society and the richness of our society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EThe problem is, as the previous speaker said, the failure to plan is planning to fail. If I look at what the Green Party are suggesting, if I think of the counterfactual about not having a system, in fact, I think we will end up with a situation, if there is a mass asylum scenario, where it will be way more unfair for the people trying to enter New Zealand. It will be considerably more arbitrary. They will be more exposed to human rights abuses, and I\u2019m sure that that is the last thing the Green members would want. I think it\u2019s really important for us to be pragmatic and understand that this is not a fiction; this is a real risk. It may be a low risk, but it is a real risk, and that is why we need to have a solution which may not be perfect but which we can all live with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EHaving said that, I do agree with the comments from my colleagues that we would have liked to have seen some more caveats on some of the extended powers. There are ministerial powers that have been extended, and they haven\u2019t had the proportionate oversight or accountability, in my view, so we will need to keep an eye on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EAlso, we did see, I think, in terms of looking at a cross-party approach, the really diligent manner with which this bill has gone not only through the House but through the Education and Workforce Committee and a Minister of Immigration who seemed very engaged and willing to listen and to make amendments, particularly around the electronic monitoring situation. We did have amendments and also recommendations that came out of the select committee which discussed the concern that they would be a boundary protection tool rather than a containment tool. That is indeed what we have managed to land on, which is quite a big shift from what was originally proposed, and I think that shows the democratic system working effectively.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EI too would like to have seen the Minister perhaps have more influence in her own executive when it came to the application of what Vanushi Walters has described as the \u201CGod powers\u201D when it comes to visas being able to be granted to the families of those who are suffering in Gaza. I have been continually in contact with many families in my own electorate. We have a lot of Palestinian families down in Dunedin. They have been to hell and back, quite frankly, over the last couple of years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EOne of my dear Palestinian friends has gone to the bedside of her incredibly ill father in Gaza with no certainty about the visa status of family members there and also of her own immediate family. That is a failure of this Government, in my view, to do the right thing and to afford the access to families and use those \u201CGod powers\u201D in a way. Now, I\u2019m not suggesting that\u2019s the Minister\u2019s fault. I just don\u2019t understand why the Minister perhaps doesn\u2019t have the influence to be able to make that happen when that would be the right thing to do\u2014and she\u2019s very aware of the concerns from my community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also a little concerned that a New Zealand Bill of Rights Act vet doesn\u2019t appear to have been done on this bill. That would have been ideal, particularly given all the competing rights that were involved here. What we did see through the committee of the whole House, right near the end, was that there could be either an unintentional or an intentional extension of conditions on people who may not normally have that requirement legally, as a result of the way the schedules operate. We did ask the Minister in the chair at the time, the Hon Casey Costello, to explain whether that was intentional or unintentional, because if it was intentional, that would be rather sinister in my view. If it was unintentional, then it would have been an opportunity to fix that up. Vanushi Walters spoke very clearly about the way that could be done. In fact, she dropped an amendment on to the Table that would have tidied that up really nicely, but unfortunately we didn\u2019t see that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EI want to agree with some of the things that the Greens have said, because I do think that they are real concerns in our country about the type of support that we offer to refugees. While I support the comments from my colleague Helen White about needing to up the number of refugees that we take\u2014because the world is in such a conflicted and vexed and precarious situation\u2014we also do need to ensure that we have resourcing so that they cannot be re-traumatised by their experience of coming into New Zealand. I don\u2019t think we have those resources even at the right level currently and we need to make sure that we do so. Better mental health supports, for example, might be able to avoid the situation that we saw in Auckland last year. There are no guarantees for that in PTSD-type situations, but at least mitigating the risks around mental health scenarios would be really important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EAlso, not just assuming that migrant communities are going to be dropped into a particular city because that\u2019s where many of their community are. I know, for example, for many of our rainbow community, they would actually rather be in communities away from immediate families or connections where LGBTQI\u002B rights are a difficult conversation in their own countries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221baa6ce9ebfe4de4bf02b027eaea81ae\u0022\u003EWe do need more resourcing, we do need to show a bit more love, I think, to our refugee communities, but, ultimately, one of the best ways we can do this when it comes to mass arrivals, in my view, is to make sure that we have a well-considered and thoughtful system that treats people fairly and humanely, that protects national security, and gives them every judicial process available that we can to make sure we are treating them with dignity and compassion. I commend the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229a9c205f95fc4f5c8943b440b9f5cb1d\u0022 data-id=\u00220ff509fa9e2b4073a1a081c524f45346\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229a9c205f95fc4f5c8943b440b9f5cb1d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ff509fa9e2b4073a1a081c524f45346\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022 data-id=\u0022afe2c7a8747e4bd3bbb6e18df2f3e15c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022afe2c7a8747e4bd3bbb6e18df2f3e15c\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a privilege\u2014and it\u2019s a heavy privilege\u2014to stand and speak to this legislation this afternoon. I was in the House last night and a lot of today listening to the arguments, listening to the critique of this legislation. Again, it is not words on a page but the lives of people and of communities, as we\u2019ve heard about. We\u2019ve heard people talking about their own electorates and about the migrant refugee families that will be impacted, potentially, or their wh\u0101nau from across the seas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003EI reflect on what we\u2019re talking about this afternoon, and I think of the privilege we have to live in these Shaky Isles, the privilege we have to live in such a beautiful place at the bottom of the world, a place of peace and tranquillity, and a place that people want to come to, because for so many people around the world, there is not peace, there is not tranquillity; there is struggle, there is famine, there is war, there is persecution, and the list goes on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003EAs has been said by the Hon Phil Twyford, our lead on this legislation, and by the speakers that followed from the Labour Party, we do support this bill. We do say it\u2019s not perfect, but we know that we need to put things in place to ensure that there are protections and that those migrants, those coming in, are looked after.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003EAs I look at the words and the different clauses of this bill, I just want to make a point around the 1951 refugee convention. Again, we\u2019ve moved so far into the 21st century and beyond that convention that we just need to pause and again remind ourselves of what we are doing as a nation in terms of our responsibility to refugees, to those who don\u2019t have the privilege that we have in this space. As I listened this morning and this afternoon, there were nine amendments to the Immigration Act, and, again, these were about ensuring that we improve and fine-tune the immigration system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003EWe did some work in the previous Government on these changes, and I think we could say that, yes, we have a party that is opposing it, but when it comes to the majority of the House, we\u2019ve landed in a place where we can agree and we can move forward. Some of that is to look at the broadness of a piece of legislation like this, even though it\u2019s around a specific group in terms of refugees or those coming to New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003EIt is interesting as I look through the bill and look at things like the ministerial powers that this will provide around granting visa applications. When I look at the criminal offending and the deportation changes that it brings, the challenges when it comes to the need to potentially cancel somebody\u2019s residence or visa-class application, and when it\u2019s looking at the out-of-hours warrants\u2014and we talked about electronic monitoring, and it is a challenge. As my colleague Vanushi Walters said, this piece of legislation, if it does pass this afternoon, which I assume it will, is legislation we would and should revisit in the years to come to make sure that we aren\u2019t overstepping the mark, to make sure that this isn\u2019t something that goes unchecked. I would rather not have someone locked up in a prison. I would rather not have someone on electronic monitoring, but it\u2019s a better position than being in prison.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003EWe look at asylum seekers and the reason they would want to come here, as I said at the start of my contribution, and we need to ensure that we modernise the laws of this place. Again, the last bit is around the immigration levies and what that looks like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003EThis is a small piece of legislation that can potentially have a big impact, and we hope that is for a good reason, and that it does protect refugees, those coming into our country. We have privilege and we have diversity in this country, and we should share it with others, and we should be open. Therefore, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002292c7f4547309487c814777767e5a0407\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Immigration (Fiscal Sustainability and System Integrity) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11;New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 15\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000535\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220f1129d17bfb4bcf8166cf920c7ed1b2\u0022\u003ELegal Services (Distribution of Special Fund) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002207854e366a7140dba0987438998f2f85\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022 data-id=\u002258f50bb69bc34c92a6bac21461fa5205\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258f50bb69bc34c92a6bac21461fa5205\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Minister for Hunting and Fishing):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Legal Services (Distribution of Special Fund) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c74af1030b8431d9f7d93f1a0839407\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276e9a2548622401b972e41238dcbd830\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Legal Services (Distribution of Special Fund) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EI would like to, firstly, give my strong and sincere thanks to the ever-hard-working and robust Justice Committee for your consideration of the bill. The committee only seems to have gained in strength and skill over the past 10 months, so I want to congratulate them for the work they\u2019ve done on this bill. The committee recommended unanimously that the bill be passed with only one change, and that is to the commencement date. That is because the original date has since passed, so I think that\u2019s a pretty sensible change to recommend, and one which I\u2019m sure all members will support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EThis Government is committed to an effective and efficient justice system, and community legal services play an important role in promoting access to justice. The amendments in the bill are necessary to support the long-term funding of organisations that deliver community legal services by clarifying how the Lawyers and Conveyancers Special Fund can be used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EThe special fund works by collecting interest from banks on solicitors\u2019 and licensed conveyancers\u2019 nominated trust accounts. Money in the special fund must be paid to the Secretary for Justice for the purpose of funding community law centres; however, as the law currently stands, it is narrowly framed. It\u2019s actually unclear whether the special fund can be used to meet other expenses incurred by community law centres in the provision of those services, such as their overheads.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003EWithout the special fund, Crown funding or other sources, like donations, have to be used. This bill makes a narrow but important change to provide that certainty to community law centres that money from the special fund can be used to meet these indirect expenses. It does not affect the core purpose of the special fund, which is to fund community law centres. The change will support sustainable access to legal services within our communities around the country. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be13a4acdb094c50bc3ae884e355634b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u00229d4cf7fa5f6f4e998931186501b04908\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d4cf7fa5f6f4e998931186501b04908\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. First of all, I want to recognise the really important work that community law centres do. They\u2019re an important part of access to justice in New Zealand, and the special fund that the Minister\u2019s just referred to\u2014the Lawyers and Conveyancers\u2019 Special Fund\u2014is, of course, the way in which they are funded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EI guess it is interesting that, last night, we were doing a statutes amendment bill which was full of tweaks and clarifications, and yet here we have a bill which has one substantive clause and is purportedly a tidy-up because the original legislation wasn\u2019t \u201Csufficiently clear\u201D. Why we need to trouble the House with a single bill for a tidy-up rather than putting it in a statutes amendment bill\u2014either the one that we\u2019ve just seen or I know there\u2019s another one which is waiting in the wings\u2014why we couldn\u2019t do that, I don\u2019t know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EThe other question: I was always perplexed\u2014and I never got a good answer to at select committee, to be perfectly honest\u2014as to why this bill is even needed, because the way the whole framework operates is the money from lawyers\u2019 trust accounts goes firstly to the New Zealand Law Society, and then it goes into a special fund which is administered by the Ministry of Justice, and then the Ministry of Justice purchases services\u2014legal services\u2014from community law centres so they can enter into the various contracts with community law centres around the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t know who it was, but someone seemed to think that when you purchase community services\u2014and if this is the precedent, there\u2019s going to be a whole lot of contracts around the country for all kinds of services which are in in trouble\u2014but the idea is that, whilst the existing law says you can purchase community legal services, apparently it wasn\u2019t clear enough that that includes ancillary services, so all of the things that go alongside it, things that support; for example, computer systems, administrative staff, library systems, and all of those things that are a necessary part\u2014an absolutely necessary part\u2014of providing community legal services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EOf course, the other thing is Community Law Centres of Aotearoa, which is the overarching body\u2014the idea of an organising and coordinating body across community law centres and whether, in fact, that could be purchased out of the special fund, because it didn\u2019t strictly fit in with the phrase the \u201Cpurchase of community legal services\u201D. Now, to be perfectly honest, I can\u2019t accept that when you enter into a contract for purchasing a service, you\u2019re not also empowered to purchase those things which are necessary for the service to be provided. Whether it be community legal services or social work services or drug and alcohol addiction services, all of those things have a necessary administrative framing around them. But somewhere in the Ministry of Justice, I think some over-enthusiastic lawyer\u2014I mean, there\u2019s far too many of those, we know\u2014has come up with the idea that purchasing community legal services is a narrow thing. You know, I get it: you\u2019re dealing with Crown funds. Well, actually, you\u2019re not; you\u2019re dealing with funds from lawyers\u2019 trust accounts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s actually an important point that I would point out\u2014that sometimes the Ministry of Justice seems to deal with this special fund as if it\u2019s its own money. It\u2019s not. It\u2019s money which must be spent on community legal services. They are simply a clearing house for those funds, and they perhaps need to take a slightly different approach, because it\u2019s not an appropriation. One of the things, when we read the Budget and look at the provision of funds to Community Law Centres of Aotearoa, it doesn\u2019t appear in the Budget, because it\u2019s not an appropriation. It comes from an entirely different way. There are occasionally\u2014or there have been occasions where\u2014the Government has topped up the special fund, in which case, obviously, an appropriation is needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EThe kind of rigour that the Public Finance Act might bring to an appropriation line in the Budget is not the kind of rigour you necessarily need when you\u2019re purchasing community legal services from funds from the special fund\u2014a fund which comes from lawyers\u2019 trust accounts. The main point is this could have been in the Statutes Amendment Bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1e2db5707cd43c4917b1b428a6ceda3\u0022\u003EVanushi Walters\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae47ec9eb76c416bb94a8a96bedc7eab\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014thank you, Vanushi Walters\u2014and we probably don\u2019t even need to be here anyway, but here we are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EI guess the other thing is this: here we are under urgency, right? They want to keep cracking on with this; they want to go straight into the committee of the whole House stage when we have a lot of questions. Yet it\u2019s about as urgent\u2014well, it\u2019s just not urgent. I mean, it\u2019s a really good example of how this Government does, in fact, use urgency for non-urgent work. This is a thing\u2014an issue\u2014that\u2019s been floating around for a while. It\u2019s a short bill and it could have gone on any Order Paper, but no\u2014they\u2019ve put it in here under the auspices of urgent business, and it\u2019s simply not urgent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EI guess the other thing I\u2019ve just observed here is that the special fund\u2014it\u2019s worth just examining it in the longer term. In fact, there\u2019s other work around the special fund that would have been far more useful, and in particular, the amount of the interest or the split of the interest, because lawyers\u2019 trust accounts, in fact, have hundreds of millions of dollars in them at any one time. Banks love that because that\u2019s money that they can take\u2014you know, that\u2019s just sitting there\u2014and use as, essentially, their float, and lend money out and so on; make good money on it. They are therefore required to pay an appropriate rate of interest on it into the special fund, but the way it\u2019s done is that 60 percent of that interest goes to the special fund and 40 percent goes to the bank in their back pocket, notionally for the administrative costs of administering trust accounts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EWell, that was done way back, I think, in\u2014when was that?\u20142008, when the Law Practitioners Act turned into the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act, and arguably there was some administration, but the administrative burden of administering trust accounts now is extremely low. If you look at it, the banks are getting about $10 million a year from the special fund in profits, and that is eye-watering. I think it works out\u2014I\u2019ve done the numbers and, I think, from memory, it was about $10,000 per account that the banks get to keep. That\u2019s $10 million that could usefully go into the community\u2014ideally, I suppose, because it\u2019s lawyers\u2019 trust accounts, for legal services to the needy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EBut look, if the Government is determined to proceed with this bill\u2014and the other thing I would note and that I\u2019ll raise later is: if the Government has been funding the ancillary services\u2014as it says, the other services which support the provision of community legal services\u2014is there a validity problem, and how are they addressing that? If the Government has entered into contracts without authority, then we\u2019ve got a problem on our hands. This bill doesn\u2019t seem to have any validation. It\u2019s quite common to see validation bills, right\u2014local government muck things up all the time; we\u2019re constantly validating their actions\u2014but there\u2019s no validation aspect to this bill. That\u2019s something I really want to interrogate and understand a bit later on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EBut I do want to make clear that we absolutely support the work of community law centres. A little shout-out to Sue Moroney, who has been the chief executive of Community Law Centres of Aotearoa and has stepped down, given a new role that she\u2019s got, I think, on Hamilton City Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003ESo, yes, we\u2019re going to support this bill, but if you\u2019re going to bring it through urgency, a bill that isn\u2019t urgent could have been in the Statutes Amendment Bill. We\u2019ll give it a working-over and see where we go to from there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u002221b1d2f6ded14f61ac0281c47ce266b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221b1d2f6ded14f61ac0281c47ce266b2\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I think I just want to pick up on, first of all, the previous speaker\u2019s, the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s, point that this bill is being brought back to the House under urgency. But I also think that there is a level of symmetry there, because, if the Hon Dr Duncan Webb remembers, this bill was introduced under urgency in June, and one of the questions that we had back then was: why was it introduced under urgency in the first place? I mean, yeah, I guess, on one hand, tangentially, you can have budgetary implications, but, again, the budgetary implication of this bill is about as removed from the rest of the bill that is needed, potentially under urgency, as it comes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThen here we are, under urgency again, going through the remaining stages. I think the first thing I do want to mention and kind of pick up on is that during the initial urgency, because it was the first time that we were able to see the bill, the Green Party did oppose the bill out of caution. In the first reading, I spoke on the necessity of this bill in the first place and whether there is something more to it than initially meets the eye. Because, again, it was introduced under urgency. There wasn\u2019t any form of a regulatory impact statement at that stage that I could see. However, as the Hon James Meager mentioned before, there was a very robust, you know, Justice Committee process. Again, props to the Justice Committee for the work that they do on a variety of different bills\u2014but this is one of them that had a lot of consideration by that select committee during the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ESo in terms of some of these contexts\u2014yes, in terms of the legal services distribution of the special fund\u2014we are looking at, particularly, the special fund that is done through the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act 2006, which provides money into the special fund that must be paid to the Secretary for Justice for the purpose of funding community law centres. I\u2019ll talk a little bit more about the purpose and some of the details of the fund, which we were able to obtain as part of that select committee process. But just in terms of the select committee, there were 13 submissions on this particular bill\u2014sorry, 19 written submissions on this particular bill. Then we\u2019ve had quite a few people who opposed this bill, interestingly. I think the most important oral submission was done by Community Law Centre Aotearoa\u2014CLCA\u2014which is appropriate since this is one of the bills that affects them the most.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EIn terms of the submissions, I think it\u2019s important to note that while there were some submissions that opposed this bill, they were partly out of the scope of the bill in their opposition. But, nevertheless, both themes in the opposition is deserving of some highlighting in the second reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI think the first theme that took place as part of that is: what does it mean in terms of less funding for direct community legal service? One of the ones I can think of immediately is the Citizens Advice Bureau (CAB), for example, which also offers a different kind of service, but also is an important service to this area. They also do a lot of work in terms of educating the communities on some of the legal issues or awareness things around the Privacy Act, etc. But this highlights the importance when it comes to things like access to justice, which is one of the core priorities for the Greens when we\u2019re looking at this, because, again, I think many of us, or all of us, should, hopefully, unanimously agree that the rule of law and equity in access to justice is something that is paramount when we\u2019re looking at the legal system. But, again, at this stage, we don\u2019t see that equitability when it comes to the justice system, and both our community law centres that this bill affects as well as the CAB fulfils some of those and fulfils a requirement, as well as the legal aid, which fulfils various requirements for our communities to be able to have that if people aren\u2019t able to pay for lawyers in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s one of the first things. I think that it is outside of the scope of this bill, but it does highlight an issue that we need to address more broadly when we\u2019re looking at other concerns\u2014for example, when we\u2019re setting the Budget for various community organisations. Again, because this bill was introduced in the Budget in May, it\u2019s appropriate to also bring the Budget into the conversation here in the second reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EAlso, the other, I guess, theme, when it comes to opposition, is around what it means for any particular ring-fencing from a M\u0101ori and M\u0101ori law perspective. I also think that in that case it is also important, I guess, to note that while the bill itself doesn\u2019t really address this particular area, but through conversations with CLCA, CLCA does have a very big focus not only regionally dependent because it very much depends on the need of the communities\u2014but the equity impact or M\u0101ori-led service deliveries is something that is quite prominent within CLCA, depending on where you are. With that, I do want to give a special shout-out to the Community Law Centre Aotearoa in Rotorua. That particular CLCA, for example, does deal with a lot of the cases around the M\u0101ori Land Court, for example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ESo it is, again, one of the things that the submitters have raised as part of the submission process that deserves highlighting, and it\u2019s something that we should always consider, as with any policy setting or legislation\u2014to ensure that we consider the equitability for M\u0101ori and how Te Tiriti o Waitangi and He Whakaputanga also centre in a lot of the decisions that we make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EFinally, I mentioned in the beginning that we, as the Justice Committee, did want to get some more information as a part of that process, on exactly what are some of the fundings that has been available, and what are some of the, I guess, relationships between the Crown and how the special fund, in this case, is used. I think it\u2019s important as part of that select committee process that we are looking at the fact that, in cases where\u2014OK, so, I guess, to start with, when we\u2019re looking at the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act, it does set out how the special fund is used. In that particular legislation, section 301(5) allows banks to retain 40 percent of all interest payable on nominated trust accounts, but with an agreement that the CLCA has an arrangement in place with five of the commercial banks to receive an additional 20 percent of interest on lawyers\u2019 nominal bank accounts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThis is what is being used to fund the 24 community law centres, and I think this is where, I guess, the initial concern and the initial purpose and the reason that the Minister of Justice brought this bill to the attention of the House and it was introduced in the House: it is around the contractual relationship under that particular usage of the special fund, and also the way that the secretary who holds some of that special fund is able to distribute the special fund, and we see that being played out in clause 4 of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EBut it\u2019s also important to note here that as part of that submission process, the New Zealand Law Society also notes the amount of interest on trust accounts retained by the banks and the impact this has on practising fees, and the amount appears to be greater than what is retained in other jurisdictions. I think this is also something that is worthwhile, although outside the scope of this. But I think, again, it\u2019s something that the legal experts in the New Zealand Law Society have raised and that is an important consideration for any further bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI agree with the Hon Dr Duncan Webb that something like this potentially could have been packaged as part of the statutory bill, because it seems to provide clarifications as opposed to make any sort of substantial changes. I think this is where some of the, I guess, overlap took place during the select committee process, with submitters hoping that the scope of this bill could be expanded and maybe there was room in this bill to expand that scope. But, again, as the bill stands, it\u2019s quite a minute adjustment and clarification on how the Legal Services Act is playing out and how the secretary is able to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EWith that, I\u2019m happy to say that, in the second reading, the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand will be supporting this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229ea8d231f4e948c19f942d51a4ae19bf\u0022 data-id=\u0022cec030dbc8a744c083579ac6d0a97cb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ea8d231f4e948c19f942d51a4ae19bf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cec030dbc8a744c083579ac6d0a97cb4\u0022\u003ELAURA McCLURE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise in support of this piece of legislation. I note that my colleague Todd Stephenson normally sits on this committee but, unfortunately, he can\u2019t be here to take this speech. This bill just clarifies how money from the Lawyers and Conveyancers\u2019 Special Fund may be used by the community law centres, ensuring that the Secretary for Justice can contract for a wider range of costs that support the delivery of community legal services. This is a good bill and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226327e49d349443e693f980fcd245b385\u0022 data-id=\u0022323a450658a8468d91cfb00724bc0947\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226327e49d349443e693f980fcd245b385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022323a450658a8468d91cfb00724bc0947\u0022\u003EJAMIE ARBUCKLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to support the Legal Services (Distribution of Special Fund) Amendment Bill. I sat on the Justice Committee to hear the submissions on this bill. As has been briefed by other speakers, we had only 19 submissions, but the submission that we did have from the Community Law Centres of Aotearoa\u2014they made a very good contribution to the select committee. It was very interesting to hear that 24 community law centres across New Zealand rely on this funding. From their submission\u2014just taking a part out of it\u2014they provided free law-related services to 47,000 clients and education to up to 26,000. I thought that contribution very much showed how important this funding is to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226327e49d349443e693f980fcd245b385\u0022\u003EThe biggest part of this was trying to broaden the use of the fund. We had an initial briefing how the direct services, the legal services, the representation advocacy work, and education could be used for this funding. However, things like the overheads, professional development, training fees, and coordination and maintenance couldn\u2019t. So, really, this bill, through clause 4, replacement section 94(1), is just broadening the ability to use the fund.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226327e49d349443e693f980fcd245b385\u0022\u003EAlso, it is enhancing community law centres\u2019 ability to assist the most needy. That, again, is very, very important. It offers sustainability within the legal aid system, without new Government spending. On this side of the House, any way that we\u2019re not using taxpayers\u2019 money where we can actually make dollars go further is something that we endorse. On that, I look forward to the committee of the whole House and I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022 data-id=\u002246640d97c21742cfac79555ef94c4b23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246640d97c21742cfac79555ef94c4b23\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. This bill, as my colleague Lawrence Xu-Nan mentioned, is something that we initially opposed. The bill was originally considered under Budget urgency\u2014I think it was in May rather than June\u2014but then introduced in July, and it appeared at that time to be a change which would broaden the acceptable use of funds that were legislatively ring-fenced for legal aid services, but resulting in less funding for legal aid itself. So here we are, again, in urgency, considering a bill that doesn\u2019t really need to be done under urgency. In fact, we seem to have been sitting under urgency for most of this term, which really shows that we have a Government that is more anti-democratic than anything and doesn\u2019t really pay attention to good legislative process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022212cf7474b304d86a379dbfeb693d855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226120bb61af3d4acba8202085402566c1\u0022\u003EHon Mark Patterson\u003C/span\u003E: So mean-spirited.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f5d0867cb054574bdff5a6da0caabca\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Mean-spirited, perhaps, but it is a Friday and we do have things to do, but we will stay here until Tuesday next week, we\u2019re quite happy\u2014we\u2019re quite happy. We know that a major barrier to seeking justice is its cost and high fees mean some people cannot\u2014cannot\u2014have access to their rights. This is not in the public interest. Community law centres are available to help with some matters, but are not adequately resourced, so legal aid is limited.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EI do remember, many, many years ago, having had recourse to legal aid, and without the money to be able to go to a lawyer, it was really, really helpful\u2014to be able to deal with a company that was doing double glazing but did a very poor job and contested their work, claimed money that they shouldn\u2019t have claimed, and I didn\u2019t know quite how to deal with that. Community law was incredibly helpful at enabling people\u2014we were a young family at the time\u2014to deal with that problem and assist us through a challenging situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EWe know that community law centres are an essential part of meeting the growing access-to-justice gap that we have, empowering people to resolve their legal issues. We know that the need in this area is growing. It is growing because we have increased poverty in our community; we have people under energy hardship in our community; we have people dealing with disreputable companies who are willing to take whatever money they can get; we have people who are dealing with agencies that are not serving their need in our communities because of this Government\u2019s actions. That\u2019s a problem, so we do need access to legal assistance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EWe need to resource community law centres so they\u2019re better able to meet their clients\u2019 needs\u2014their clients, who are the people are suffering or struggling the most in this society now\u2014and restore and their mandate to act in individual cases and engage in more justice sector advocacy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EWe were opposed to this bill at the earlier reading because it appeared to usher in a change that would broaden the acceptable use of legal services funding, but as my colleague Lawrence Xu-Nan has mentioned, that concern has largely been resolved during the select committee process, and we note that Community Law Centres of Aotearoa has given its support to this bill. As a result, we will support this bill at this point, but we will note that we think that the overuse of urgency is a dangerous, dangerous thing that this Government has engaged in, and we think that the anti-democratic nature of this Government is something that we really do need to address. We need to consider this\u2014it\u2019s a bigger question\u2014so while we certainly do listen and pay attention to our community, we also want to make sure that our community has the ability to input into legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003ERather than sitting in urgency, we want to see better time for select committee process\u2014longer time. This bill\u2019s had some time, but we\u2019re sitting in urgency doing the devil\u2019s work with this Government, and we want to make sure that they don\u2019t abuse urgency and give us more time to have the public have input into processes. Thank you. We\u2019ll support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022 data-id=\u00222161794927e2429e9e8c7685c5e655d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222161794927e2429e9e8c7685c5e655d5\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, we have Opposition that is crowing about the use of urgency at the same time as saying these are non-controversial bills. Why don\u2019t we clear the Order Paper, get through this quickly, and get on with the work of this House? I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022 data-id=\u00229b0357703f6f4d7fb0cf4b629f275e9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b0357703f6f4d7fb0cf4b629f275e9f\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity to speak on the Legal Services (Distribution of Special Fund) Amendment Bill. What a crucial bill for the cost of living of all those Kiwis that are out there right now struggling to put food on the table! I\u2019m sure this bill will make a big difference to people who queue up in the grocery line each week wondering how they\u2019re going to feed their kids or put shoes on their feet!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does is it identifies that the Legal Services Act 2011 enables the secretary to enter contracts with community law centres to purchase legal services. However, there\u2019s a glitch. Because this provision is narrow, it is really unclear whether community law centres can use money from the special fund to meet the indirect costs they incur when providing services, such as their leases or utilities. The Government has taken it upon itself to sit in urgency\u2014not to help people get a job; not to help people pay for their food; not to help people pay for their mortgage or their rent or even help clothe their kids\u2014to change it so that there\u2019s a small technicality in the Legal Services Act to enable community law centres to access some funding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EI\u2019m saying nothing wrong about community law centres, though. They do an outstanding job in New Zealand. Can we just pause for a moment and take a look at all the good work that they do. They have been substantially underfunded by previous National Governments and have really struggled to be able to provide the free legal advice that they do. I think this will actually go towards paying their leases, potentially. It would have been even better if there was additional money to be able to provide them to function and do all the good work they do. We know that many people struggle to access justice because the funds are prohibitive. Many people want to be able to proceed with legal advice\u2014whether it be family law or other issues, immigration, or employment law\u2014but we know that the ability to pay for a good lawyer is really prohibitive for a lot of New Zealanders. Community law services step into that space and do an excellent job. I\u2019d like to acknowledge the Hutt Valley community law centres. We refer a lot of people to them through both of my offices that operate in Petone and Wainui\u014Dmata, and they provide people with free legal advice in areas where people can\u2019t afford a lawyer and they don\u2019t know what to do next.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EWhat community law services often do is they stipulate special sessions where people can come in and receive expertise and advice about a particular area, whether that be immigration, family, or employment law. They\u2019re special, dedicated sessions where people can come and access a lawyer. I want to acknowledge those lawyers who do give their time and effort to go and provide that advice. It is warmly received in the community\u2014especially those who are stressing about issues where they don\u2019t fully understand how it\u2019s going to impact upon them and their future and their families and their budget. Having that legal advice accessible to them is incredibly important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EFor those reasons, we support the bill, but we don\u2019t think urgency is a particularly good time to be passing legislation like this given that New Zealanders are struggling under a cost of living crisis and that, largely, Christopher Luxon is out of touch and has broken his promises to New Zealanders. He\u2019s cut women\u2019s pay; he\u2019s promised to make the cost of living better, and while families struggle to pay the bills, he\u2019s looking after property speculators and fossil fuel companies and largely abandoned middle New Zealand. But don\u2019t worry, everybody\u2014we\u2019ve now got a technical change to the Legal Services Act so that they can all pay their rent, so, rest assured, help is on its way! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also like to say that the Lawyers and Conveyancers\u2019 Special Fund was established back in 1982, and it collects from banks 60 percent of the interest earned on solicitors\u2019 and licensed conveyancers\u2019 nominated trust accounts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EThe Justice Committee only wanted one change made to this bill; the commencement date was changed to reflect the fact that 1 July 2025 has already passed\u2014so we missed that one. This Government has fallen behind its plans in passing legislation, hence why we\u2019re all sitting here ramming through a whole bunch of stuff at the end of the year, because they couldn\u2019t plan their legislative programme properly. But that\u2019s all right\u2014we can just stay on a Friday and do all the work they didn\u2019t manage to do during the year. We can expect more of that next year as the Government realises that it\u2019s failed to deliver on its promises and it\u2019s running out of time. New Zealanders are beginning to take notice of that, and that\u2019s reflected in our polls right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EThis bill is important for those people who want to access more ability to get to legal services. If your local community law centre is struggling to pay the rent, this change will now enable them to pay for their lease. In some areas\u2014and I know in Lower Hutt\u2014it\u2019s not easy and cheap to afford rent, so it allows the costs and the functions to be met through the special fund rather than Crown funding. That saves the ability of the Crown to fund that, and funds it through the special fund. It will enable future Crown funding to be reprioritised, and we hope that that does happen. We\u2019re grateful for the fact that this bill, brought in for the use of the Lawyers and Conveyancers\u2019 Special Fund, allows for these expenses in the delivery of community legal services. It\u2019s not explicit in the current legislation that the delivery of community legal services can be paid, and so that\u2019s what this bill is doing. It\u2019s important that community legal services are funded properly, because they provide that vital role. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t actually have all the submissions that we have\u2014so we think that it\u2019s a really important move to do that, but, once again, as I have highlighted, we are really concerned about what the priorities of this Government are. It does highlight that maybe they got their priorities just a bit wrong. If 200 people are leaving New Zealand for Australia every day to find better-paying jobs, I wonder if the Government could have a better policy programme to retain New Zealanders here\u2014to provide jobs and to give young people some hope and some training or apprenticeships. All those things would be great things to do to actually give people here in New Zealand some sort of vision about what the Government intends for New Zealand to be like in the next five or 10 years. But don\u2019t worry, because Labour\u2019s got that sorted out: we\u2019ll be talking lots about jobs, health, homes, and real action on the cost of living. We do have a vision for New Zealand, and we want it built by New Zealanders for New Zealanders, because that matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EWe want an economy that works for everybody, not just a two-tiered economy that serves some people while the rest of the country is really struggling to be able to make ends meet. That doesn\u2019t seem fair, and it seems, quite frankly, really out of touch. While all we hear from the Government is trying to blame the previous Government, as the clock ticks on, people are starting to realise that a lot of the entrenchment and the prolonging of the recession in the economy that we\u2019re seeing now is largely because so many of those big projects around the country got cancelled, 20,000 construction workers went overseas, and that\u2019s been a significant reason why prices have continued to go up and why people just don\u2019t have the wages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EThe fact that we\u2019ve now had this technical change to the Legal Services Act really has no impact whatsoever on all of those pressing issues on New Zealanders right across our lands, who are really wondering and scratching their heads and looking at the current Government to try to find some solutions to these daily issues. It demonstrates, really, that they have no clear understanding of the reality of New Zealanders\u2019 day-to-day lives. Many New Zealanders are out of work; the rates of unemployment in regions such as Gisborne are way up. I think it was like a 70 percent increase in unemployment in places like Gisborne and Hawke\u2019s Bay\u2014huge ones. In particular, the doubling of unemployment for people aged 40 to 44\u2014that\u2019s a big doubling of unemployment rates. Our youth unemployment rate is at 15.2 percent. That\u2019s a huge amount of increase in our young people being unemployed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EThe solutions offered\u2014apart from this Legal Services Bill\u2014are that they\u2019re taking the jobseeker benefit away from 18- and 19-year-olds, as well, at the same time as cutting funding to apprenticeships and tertiary training. You would think, at a time when they\u2019re taking the jobseeker benefit off 18- and 19-year-olds and when there\u2019s record unemployment in New Zealand, that you would offer some alternatives like training or education or opportunities\u2014but no. We\u2019re consigning everybody to a flight to Australia, because the Government doesn\u2019t really care about the outcomes. At the end of the day, we can all rest assured that the rent in our local community law service\u2019s office will be paid on time because of this bold, forthright, and ambitious bill for the future of New Zealand. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270ed52c2243745f285c14a2d3413a86a\u0022 data-id=\u002258689d0395984f9ab5e4755b6cd0e4ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270ed52c2243745f285c14a2d3413a86a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258689d0395984f9ab5e4755b6cd0e4ec\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022 data-id=\u0022715187fff3b344a9b9a64bf197cca883\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022715187fff3b344a9b9a64bf197cca883\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call on the Legal Services (Distribution of Special Fund) Amendment Bill. I\u2019m a big fan of community law centres. When I was a law student, one of the first things I did was head along to\u2014well, I studied at Victoria\u2014to the Wellington community law centre and volunteer as a student, and then as a lawyer. I used to volunteer on the employment night. As my colleague Ginny Andersen says, many of the sessions are specially focused on particular issues that people have. There was always a line, and there were always a lot of people waiting to see lawyers there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EI really love the community law centre movement because, although in my particular line of work, doing a lot of employment law work\u2014and I did do a lot of work for trade union members\u2014there will always be a section of the community who, for whatever reason, usually financial reasons, are unable to get assistance in any other way than going to a community law centre. The lawyers at community law provide a really invaluable service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t know how much people know about community law centres, but it\u2019s not a full service\u2014\u201CWe\u2019re going to take your case to the Supreme Court\u201D\u2014usually. I think, maybe, there might be a few instances, and my colleague Vanushi Walters, who\u2019s much more experienced in community law centre legal provision than I am, can probably think of a few examples of some strategic and important cases that community law centres do. But generally, it\u2019s the type of hard work of looking through people\u2019s papers, figuring out what their legal problem is, pointing them in the right direction, and telling them it\u2019s going to be OK. It\u2019s not glamorous and it usually won\u2019t get your name on a reported case, but it will make a big difference for those people. For some of them, it will be the first time they\u2019ve talked to a lawyer. The work of community law is really invaluable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EI think New Zealand should be proud of the fact that, actually, our legal community has got together and decided to support New Zealanders through not only staff in community law but also with their trust accounts. You\u2019ll know, if you\u2019ve ever bought or sold a house, when your money goes to your lawyer, it sits in a trust account, and so sometimes, there can be millions of dollars sitting there, of course, earning interest from the bank\u2014accumulated, of people\u2019s different house transactions, not usually just one house, but, of course, that could be also the possibility. Anyway, so there\u2019s a lot of money in trust accounts. The interest goes to funding community law centres\u2014at the moment, it\u2019s about 60 percent. This money then goes to fund these community law centres.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve spoken very positively about the community law movement because it\u2019s something that I think is really important and invaluable, and we should support it. My wish is that we support it more than we currently are. It is disappointing to see this bill focus so much on funding but provide no real additional change in the amount of funding that will be provided to community law centres. As far as I\u2019m aware, this is a clarification, it\u2019s a funding fix, and it just clarifies that the practice, as it currently stands, is legal. It\u2019s not an additional amount of funding for this very important service. That, on the one hand, is disappointing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EThe second thing is, if we are going to spend the House\u2019s time looking at community law, I wish that we were doing something that would actually be improving the situation for community law, and this bill doesn\u2019t do that. This bill finds an issue, which I think, looking at it, is arguable. I did look at the primary piece of legislation, and I think, probably, what\u2019s happening currently, on my brief reading, is probably OK. I\u2019d be really surprised to find an instance of where someone would challenge that, as Duncan Webb said, the provision of legal services that requires a building, a premises, a photocopier, the lights to be turned on, running water, health and safety to be present there, desks, computers; I would really be surprised if it was\u2014which is what currently happens, and that\u2019s funded through this fund\u2014found to be not permissible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EWe will support this bill. We\u2019d like to see more support for community law centres, and I\u2019d also like to see greater ambition with the legislative programme in front of this House. If this was truly a necessary change, why didn\u2019t we look at how we might be able to support community law centres more? Surely there was something, additionally, that this House could have done to enable them to do their work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EI know everyone around this House who is an MP will have, at some stage\u2014maybe weekly; almost daily\u2014referred their constituents to community law. They deserve our assistance, they deserve our support, and I wish this House would do more to support them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266d6872f24ce4f77ba5ac75f0fc62c76\u0022 data-id=\u00222aa8aec0e55c491fb08d96bba8b25638\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266d6872f24ce4f77ba5ac75f0fc62c76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222aa8aec0e55c491fb08d96bba8b25638\u0022\u003ESUZE REDMAYNE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. This bill is amazing. It supports our community law centres, who do great things in the community for people who can\u2019t afford to pay for their own private representation. I have great pleasure in commending this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022 data-id=\u00224874c606d7f14f83903dd98a2b58a580\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224874c606d7f14f83903dd98a2b58a580\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Now, of all the bills that we\u2019ve seen come through the House under urgency, this one has to win the prize\u2014this one has to win the prize for the strangest use of urgency to put a bill through the House. Shame on you, Government. But I\u2019ve got to say, I\u2019m at least very happy that you didn\u2019t use urgency and you did let the bill go through to select committee. You know why I\u2019m very happy? Because we got this beautiful quote from Community Law Centres of Aotearoa itself that says, \u201CWe view legislative change to be unnecessary.\u201D Ha, ha! Fantastic. Absolutely fantastic use of time! So they\u2019re kind of going, \u201CYeah, OK.\u201D, but they don\u2019t see that it\u2019s necessary. Not only are you passing legislation on it; this is the second time you\u2019ve put it on a list as being urgent. It is absolutely bizarre, I\u2019ve got to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EIt is a pleasure, though, to speak about community law, because I spent almost a decade there as a lawyer, a supervising solicitor, and then managing YouthLaw Aotearoa, so they have a very close place to my heart. I\u2019ll have a lot more to say about that at committee of the whole House stage, of course. But I do think that they play a crucial role\u2014the role they\u2019re most frequently known for is the role their lawyers and student volunteers play, but they do play other roles, as well. One of those roles was the first one that I got involved with as a law student when YouthLaw were involved in drafting the shadow or parallel report to the United Nations on New Zealand\u2019s compliance with the Convention on the Rights of the Child. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EYouthLaw is part of an organisation that\u2019s called Children\u2019s Rights Alliance Aotearoa. When I was part of it, it was called Action for Children and Youth Aotearoa. An interesting fun fact: the current Children\u2019s Commissioner was on the board of that organisation, as well. That\u2019s the first time I met her. But we travelled to Geneva and we were the civil society delegation who were holding the Government to account to see whether the Government were actually complying with children\u2019s rights. The Hon Anne Tolley was leading the Government delegation at the time. So, yes, they play an important role in terms of direct legal services like the provision of advice and representation, but they also look at law reform roles and issues and they also look at broader issues in terms of reporting internationally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EAnother interesting fun fact was that in a previous National Government, the National Government decided that they would no longer fund Community Law Centres of Aotearoa to do law reform work, so that funding was shifted into other legal services. It\u2019s only with the Labour Government coming back in that that service was restored. It always really appalled me that the then National Government weren\u2019t concerned about the systemic issues that we were identifying by actually talking to people about their issues on the ground\u2014so a really broad-based set of services that Community Law provides.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI also wanted to give some examples of the type of legal advice that would be the kind of day-to-day, bread and butter work of a community law centre, especially with my former YouthLaw hat on. There were frequent instances when we would provide advice to young people about sexual harassment issues, often in the context of student jobs. They simply just didn\u2019t know where to go and we would be the first contact for them. For young people experiencing family violence issues\u2014on that we\u2019d get calls directly from young people, but also from counsellors and people working with young people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EWe\u2019d work on minor criminal matters, as well, including where young people were charged with offences. An interesting thing that I found working in that role is that young people often will go into situations where they\u2019re with a group and will want to defend their friends. On several occasions, we had young people claiming to be the person responsible for things like minor wilful damage while they were out with their friends when, in fact, they weren\u2019t the person who did it. On reflection overnight, a week later, they sat down and thought about it and did want help defending that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EMost of what Community Law were doing at the time when I was there was employment law cases\u2014I think that\u2019s common across the country still; it tells of that huge employment need in that part of the system. But I think one thing we struggled with\u2014and the system continues to struggle with this\u2014is the delay in actually getting justice when you have an issue in the employment space or, for that matter, if you have what I\u2019d like to call an everyday legal issue, where your recourse is with one of our tribunals. I\u2019m sure Government members would be horrified to know that if you wanted to take a privacy case, for example, to the Human Rights Review Tribunal, you could be waiting up to three years to get in front of the tribunal members and to have a decision made. That, of course, is not access to justice. I mention that because we can sort of protect this funding, but then, of course, we need to make sure that the other parts of access to justice are there, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EOn the special fund itself\u2014and others have spoken about the 60/40 balance in terms of what comes to community law centres. The amount\u2014and Dr Duncan Webb has referenced this\u2014that comes from the special fund has fluctuated in the past. There have been many times when the Ministry of Justice budget has topped up the funding, and other times when the special fund could accommodate the entirety of community law\u2019s needs. So back in 2019, the total pot of funding going to Community Law Centres of Aotearoa was almost $13 million; the amount of the special fund was $10.9 million, so that top-up was there. By 2023, we had more than $20 million in the special fund. You can see how, when the markets are doing particular things, that really can affect special fund funding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003ENow, I raise this because I was a little concerned when the Minister who was moving urgency listed this bill and said that it was part of Budget savings commitments. Now, I think that\u2019s a problem, because there will be times when the special fund can cover the entirety of Community Law Centres of Aotearoa\u2019s funding, but, in truth, as others have said, it doesn\u2019t cover the totality of legal need at the moment. So, in my view, there currently is a need for the Ministry of Justice to be topping up that funding even further. This shouldn\u2019t be\u2014and I hope it\u2019s not\u2014an excuse to say that the ministry will no longer be looking at what the total legal need is. So I am very perplexed at the entry of this bill. That remains my concern\u2014that that is not what the Government should be doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003ESo I will be seeking assurances during the committee of the whole House stage that the Government understands that its obligation is to look at access to justice across the board. I\u2019ve just made reference to one part of our justice system which isn\u2019t operating as it should. It must then provide the funds to ensure that people can access what they need to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI would also say, in terms of that slightly arm\u2019s-length nature that community law have, the special fund funding does give it that. I was troubled when I was at community law when we had Ministry of Justice contracts that had a \u201Cno surprises\u201D clause in them. From time to time, when we were doing law reform work, I would advise the ministry that we were about to release a paper or come forward with a policy proposal. On one occasion I had a response that said, \u201CYes, that\u2019s fine with us. Go right ahead.\u201D Of course, that\u2019s not what a ministry should be doing. A \u201Cno surprises\u201D clause means that you inform, but there is no permission. That happened under the last National Government, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003ESo, again, in the committee stage I will be looking to ensure that it\u2019s very clear that the Government understands the independence with which community law centres need to continue to work, and that the pot of funding that is the special fund is earmarked for Community Law Centres of Aotearoa. While administratively it comes through the Ministry of Justice, it is earmarked by statute for Community Law Centres of Aotearoa and, therefore, protects their independence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc18fca1517544d48a85a448eabd4308\u0022 data-id=\u00226c7decd72f664fa18484b812585e5748\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc18fca1517544d48a85a448eabd4308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c7decd72f664fa18484b812585e5748\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Look, it\u2019s really a shame to hear that on the other side of the House, they think it\u2019s a waste of time to work a few extra hours to give our community law centres access to more funds. We don\u2019t think it\u2019s a waste of time, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220cca8d925277422396d3d4e7837175a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5009d32c32e4a669027a5dc654b1736\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220cca8d925277422396d3d4e7837175a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5009d32c32e4a669027a5dc654b1736\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220cca8d925277422396d3d4e7837175a3\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220cca8d925277422396d3d4e7837175a3\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00228060a9bea4634b02851d26d52bb63a24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228060a9bea4634b02851d26d52bb63a24\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for committee stage immediately. I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Legal Services (Distribution of Special Fund) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b567c7af73ee47868aaf485621b6b017\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ecb2d67a214c4d698ddfa50648767653\u0022\u003EClause 1  Title\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1168fc367974285a1040340f771417a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1168fc367974285a1040340f771417a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Legal Services (Distribution of Special Fund) Amendment Bill. We come now to clause 1. This is the debate on the \u201CTitle\u201D clause. The question is that clause 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022f126f22ea84f48bcb18a61cd7a02ceae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f126f22ea84f48bcb18a61cd7a02ceae\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to check with the Minister for the Environment in terms of the title for this bill. Now, it would be no surprise for, I think, anyone in this Chamber to know that I do have an amendment here on the title, but I want to check something with the Minister first. Everyone is clear in terms of the purpose of this bill\u2014we just discussed that in the second reading\u2014but the question is if the term \u201Cdistribution\u201D is the best term to use for the title, if it actually represents what this bill does. To me, \u201Cdistribution\u201D is not so much in terms of how it is used, which is what we\u2019re seeing in a later clause, or the circumstances in which the community law centres are able to use it, but more, \u201Cdistribution\u201D I would assume to be how that could be spread or distributed to other things that\u2019s beyond, potentially, the scope of this bill, or potentially other law community initiatives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI wonder if, for example, the Minister would consider my amendment that the \u201CLegal Services (Expenditure of Special Funds) Amendment Bill\u201D, or even \u201C(Usage of Special Fund)\u201D, might actually be a more accurate title that reflects what this bill does. I\u2019m going to start with that particular question and see if the Minister is able to make any comments on my amendment. I don\u2019t, unfortunately, have a number for the amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022 data-id=\u002285d7fbf7d46e46e59749961bd2eef4fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285d7fbf7d46e46e59749961bd2eef4fc\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and I thank the member Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan for his generous offer of that amendment, but, no, we won\u2019t be accepting that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022 data-id=\u002292ab204f63a44e58836c5efa4189b615\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292ab204f63a44e58836c5efa4189b615\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. My question here relates to some of the history of this bill. This begins with legislation that was passed in 2006, and it changed provisions that came before it, where the special fund also potentially funded the Law Foundation, as it was then. Because the special fund wasn\u2019t at that stage accumulating sufficient funds, all the funds ended up going to community law centres anyway. With the 2006 changes, that was made very clear in terms of the distribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI\u2019m just wondering, really, whether the Minister had considered tying the title to something that related specifically to community law. I could understand if that was not something the Minister wanted to do 10 years ago, because at that stage the community law movement probably wasn\u2019t as cohesive as it is today. Certainly with Community Law Centres of Aotearoa Inc. now being well funded and the separate community law centres being extremely well coordinated and operating very much in unison most of the time, I think there\u2019s an argument to say that we have currently this excellent model that operates across the country, who are coordinating in terms of their practice, and who, I understand, at one stage looked at how they could ensure that people who work at community law are all paid in a comparable way so that they truly do feel like they\u2019re operating as one\u2014whom the public see in the form of the community law manual. So, again it\u2019s seen very much, I believe, as a Government service that people rely on and part of the essential access to justice architecture.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s potentially time that we recognise that this is a part of our legal access to justice architecture that deserves some protection in terms of the allocation of these funds. That will also allow community law to plan, and to grow\u2014in, I think, a quite different way\u2014and to know that not only is the funding for their legal services and support services guaranteed through legislation but that it\u2019s guaranteed for the entities that they\u2019ve set up. I think that that will help them develop further entities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EIn recent years they\u2019ve looked to set up Te Ara Ture, or the bridge to law, which is quite a novel concept. It\u2019s a legal clearing house\u2014Australia has a similar one\u2014and that matches up pro bono lawyers with legal issues that are coming up in the community. I always thought that was extremely innovative, and so, again, if there was a change to the title that truly reflected the mana with which we hold community law, then I think that will continue to allow them to take bold steps into access to justice architecture that can more greatly support those who do need legal help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EOne thing I\u2019ve always thought about, given that I specialised in young people and providing them with legal advice, is how we help people who don\u2019t know that they have a legal issue. Part of that is the education outreach work that community law centres do. Again, having that security, by being recognised specifically within legislation, will give community law centres that sense of trust that they need to grow programmes, to outreach to people, and engage with the entities that exist on the ground so that they can outreach and start providing almost pre-advice, if you like, to those people who need it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022 data-id=\u00225d3e3073cfba4ac2b4fcb9492b01c087\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d3e3073cfba4ac2b4fcb9492b01c087\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just wanting to take a short call on the first clause of the Legal Services (Distribution of Special Fund) Amendment Bill. This bill, I think, may have an acceptable name, but I think, perhaps, we could improve it, so one of the suggestions that I would make is a change to: \u201Cthis Act is the \u2018Legal Services (Clarification of Use of Special Fund) Amendment Bill\u2019 \u201D; because that\u2019s really what it\u2019s doing. It\u2019s already being distributed in this way, so it\u2019s really a clarification bill. I think if we could get that in there, that would be good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EThe other suggestion that I wanted to make was: it is a common thing in other countries to name bills after people that have been significant\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca6c823a211347f28d2db3368196b033\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: This has not been taken\u2014we are still on part\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d6b57e89e644bd0a6481ccc47cc678b\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b09351dd73046f6a8ca3c592cb6812f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry. My apologies. Carry on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b422ac84b8814368b270adbdbd7aa0bd\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s fine, Mr Chair. In other countries, often, famous people who are associated with particular movements are named in bills, and you\u2019ll often see that in America, for example\u2014you might see bills that were brought because of a particular person or to solve a particular issue being named after that person. That\u2019s not a practice I\u2019ve seen in New Zealand. I don\u2019t know why that is, and I don\u2019t know if there\u2019s a good reason\u2014maybe the Minister could clarify. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EWhen I was researching the history of the community law centre, this is something that\u2019s been around in New Zealand since the 1970s. As I understand, the first community law centre was founded in Grey Lynn, and one of the key people who was involved in the foundation of the community law movement, and who actually set up the Citizens Advice Bureau in Auckland as well, was an incredible man called Robert Ludbrook. He actually passed away only last year. I seriously think that a nice thing, when we do pass bills that are so closely associated with the contributions of people, to honour those people, would be to consider putting them in the title clause. That\u2019s a suggestion made in good faith, and it was very interesting for me to learn about the origins of Community Law and how it came about. Like many things in our community, it\u2019s something that people saw a need for. Obviously, in Robert Ludbrook\u2019s particular situation, I think he actually received a Queen\u2019s or King\u2019s honour\u2014not sure which exact date he received it on\u2014but it was recognition for his service to doing this type of work: recognising that there was a need for Citizens Advice Bureaus and also for community law centres.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EThis, I suppose, is more aligned with a bill, hopefully, with slightly more aspiration for the community law service provision in New Zealand. I think, maybe, if we did start naming bills after very important New Zealanders, like this man, then we would maybe start to get some slightly more aspirational legislation through\u2014and so that\u2019s a suggestion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003ETechnical suggestions: go one way\u2014look at it in relation to clarification of use, which is actually what it does, or have a more aspirational title which actually recognises the mana, the history, and the important figures that were involved in setting up Community Law in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270ed52c2243745f285c14a2d3413a86a\u0022 data-id=\u00226249e29213284a0ea1e67941ca9ca660\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270ed52c2243745f285c14a2d3413a86a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226249e29213284a0ea1e67941ca9ca660\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u002254801326e59b44a89e55324bcf2ca15b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002254801326e59b44a89e55324bcf2ca15b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just will have a brief mention on clause 1. The reason I want to do that is because a little later on I\u2019ll be proposing an amendment which seeks to make sure that transactions already entered into can\u2019t be revisited. That would then make this not only about the distribution of the special fund, but it would also make it a validation bill. It is common\u2014we\u2019ve seen in this House on a number of occasions, bills which have validation in the title, which, essentially, is a backward looking thing. It\u2019s one of those \u201Cfor the avoidance of doubt\u201D things for clarity. Of course, our view is that it\u2019s not needed, but the Government\u2019s view is that this is needed. I\u2019m perplexed as to why they haven\u2019t addressed the validation problem. If they think that contracts have been entered into outside of the permitted phrase within the Act, then validation is absolutely needed. My view is that this bill should be\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281a465eb20294645bc63efa635c80cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7d946d8b1c546d88c444aecfe5806d8\u0022\u003ECameron Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: Hold on!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7e510f919384dc2a03fd33980d97618\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry? Are you going to take a call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281a465eb20294645bc63efa635c80cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217bf5995ef90481ea5fbf676b1b06348\u0022\u003ECameron Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. I was just excited to hear what your title was going to be!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3ac5edeb3fb49bfa9b519e7a9236b3a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, thanks. Oh, yeah, well, it\u2019s good to know. I\u2019m excited as well. It\u2019s exciting times here in Parliament! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EI think we should just call it the \u201CLegal Services (Distribution of Special Fund and Validation of Contracts) Amendment Bill\u201D. If we\u2019re not going to go large and follow the advice of Camilla Belich, which is to identify in the bill the name of some of the doyens of the community law services\u2014and the fact that in Grey Lynn it was established in 1978. I mean, I think it would be a great thing to do that, but, if not, \u201CLegal Services (Distribution of Special Fund and Validation of Contracts) Amendment Bill\u201D. Let\u2019s do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270ed52c2243745f285c14a2d3413a86a\u0022 data-id=\u0022bcd1a44c3e80448093e050ce74f4894f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270ed52c2243745f285c14a2d3413a86a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bcd1a44c3e80448093e050ce74f4894f\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022659302883e0e4f18a5d42f1149f901f7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022efe6466aa64b4e3a9b1a5c775543c429\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022efe6466aa64b4e3a9b1a5c775543c429\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 1 replacing the word \u201Cdistribution\u201D with \u201Cexpenditure\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224c16bf7df8c64a558274cf7e8d34110c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000655\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227781ad28c26c4afd9a4f799c6006af3a\u0022\u003E Clause 2  Commencement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022da030656571947af868d8347c1dbf1dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da030656571947af868d8347c1dbf1dc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come to clause 2, the debate on the commencement of the bill. The question is that clause 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u00225e58aba279484d38a5c79836388a64f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e58aba279484d38a5c79836388a64f9\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, I\u2019ll just take a short call on this. Really, about the commencement, there\u2019s a couple of things that crop up. One is that, when you\u2019re talking about contracting and you\u2019re actually creating a new contracting framework, you might want to just give a little bit of breathing space. It is, essentially, if the Government\u2019s correct in its legal analysis, changing the legislative authority for contracting, and there might be contracts out there, or contracts that are about to be signed, which actually use the wording of the original legislation rather than the amended legislation. Even if it was a week or two weeks, I would have thought that\u2019d be useful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EAgain, the other thing is that we on this side of the Chamber don\u2019t usually like retrospectivity, but this might be one of those cases where the Legislation Design and Advisory Committee would note that it\u2019s actually in everyone\u2019s favour, and it disadvantages no one, to have a retrospective element, which, essentially, would mean commencement before the Act is passed. That would be an unusual way to do it, having a commencement which was before the Act was passed, but that would be the other way around it: to say, well, this framework has been in place, in fact, I think, since the Law Practitioners Act, so you could actually have a commencement going back to 1986 just to make sure that these contracts are all properly enforced. There\u2019s a few thoughts on commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022965c349520a64635bc076deb3824e9b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022965c349520a64635bc076deb3824e9b9\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to ask the Minister of Justice some questions around commencement, but from a different angle from the previous speaker, the Hon Dr Duncan Webb. Now, the committee is understanding that this bill was first brought to the House under urgency. When it was brought under urgency in May, it was only under urgency for the first reading, so, naturally, it would have gone to a select committee process. Considering there wasn\u2019t any referral motion that was being brought to the House, at a minimum the select committee process would have been for four months. I wanted to check, in that case, what was the original intention of having the commencement date on 1 July 2025?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ENow, my only assumption back then was that it was because of the fact that it aligns with the Government Budget, because the bill was introduced under Budget urgency, but now, because we\u2019re now long past 1 July 2025, the commencement date has been adjusted by the select committee as the day after Royal assent. I think the question still remains, which we weren\u2019t able to tease out in the Justice Committee, which is: considering this is going to go to a select committee anyway, why have a retrospective date in the first place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EGranted, I think the day after Royal assent makes sense, but I think the caveat that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb mentioned is an important one. I guess, when we\u2019re looking at this, if the original date was 1 July 2025 and now it\u2019s the day after Royal assent\u2014let\u2019s assume it is Monday, or tomorrow if the Governor-General is available on Saturday; I don\u2019t know\u2014what then would happen to this particular area? I want to check with the Minister if anything has changed or if there were any effects that would change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EAgain, we have mentioned the fact that the bill was introduced in the House under urgency, and now we\u2019re reading it under urgency, so there must be a level of urgency that is involved in this. There must have been some form of impact or effect that the Government may be aware of that we are not aware of, between July and November.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThose are my two questions: what is the intention originally of the original date, noting that the report-back date was beyond 1 July; and also, then, what is the impact of this bill not passing on 1\u00A0July 2025, and now here in November?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb7286362a4e48baa2c692fd5030c7e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb7286362a4e48baa2c692fd5030c7e2\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just want to go back here to the question that I raised in the second reading, which is: why is this bill commencing? I\u2019m really just trying to identify the problem here. I have the Community Law Aotearoa submission to the Justice Committee in front of me, and paragraphs 3 and 4 of that, I think, speak to precisely why this bill is not needed\u2014and I don\u2019t even mean under urgency; I mean at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI just want to read that because I would like to hear the Minister of Justice\u2019s response, in particular to Community Law\u2019s submission. They say that they view legislative change to be unnecessary. \u201CThe Bill appears to be intended to clarify a perceived ambiguity that use of the Special Fund and/or contracts for community legal services may not include functions that enable, facilitate or support the provision of community legal services, such as administrative and management staff. CLCA\u2019s view is that the law already allows contracts to include these matters.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u201CSection 298 of the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act sets out the purposes for which the Special Fund can be used (funding community law centres). The Bill does not change section 298. Our view is that \u2018funding of community law centres\u2019 includes functions that enable, facilitate or support the provision of community legal services. Section 94(1) of the Legal Services Act governs the content of contracts between the Secretary and community law centres. In our view, section 94(1) already allows the Secretary to fund functions that enable, facilitate or support the provision of community legal services as a necessary part of \u2018purchas[ing] community legal services\u2019.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a very clear view there. There\u2019s a very clear view there from a group of lawyers as well. Again, why is this bill commencing? Why is this bill commencing under urgency? It remains, to me, very unclear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u00225c75447058124bfdbd553245ced8f74c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c75447058124bfdbd553245ced8f74c\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, I just want to, I guess, seek your guidance. The Hon Dr Duncan Webb, Vanushi Walters, and myself have asked the Minister a number of questions that require clarification from the Minister, and the Minister has not responded to any of our questions thus far. I want to seek your clarification\u2014understanding that the Minister is not the Minister who is responsible for the bill but that officials are there and are available\u2014if the Chair would allow for the Minister to respond to a previous clause\u2019s question if the clause completes and we move on to a new clause. I just want to check if that\u2019s something that would be acceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00227dbe1127058e478c9dad5cd4344eb651\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227dbe1127058e478c9dad5cd4344eb651\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a fair enough question. There are a number of issues that come in when considering a closure: repetition, new material, and ministerial participation. While questions are still coming from one side of the committee, it\u2019s hard to think there would be a closure without any ministerial participation at all, but I\u2019ll leave that to the parties to decide. Minister, Hon Penny\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcaaf34af5394a56b0f7b3e4804db5ac\u0022\u003EHon Penny Simmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Simmonds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a96fb8e7bfb45389244c3079d48977f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014Simmonds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a730626c572e48f1b0f460b514b30656\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a730626c572e48f1b0f460b514b30656\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, I will respond. The Government sought advice from Crown Law, and, after considering the advice, the Government decided that it would be preferable to have the law clarified. The Government acts responsibly when it gets that advice from Crown Law. Obviously, Community Law Centres Aotearoa\u2019s advice is not the Government\u2019s advice. The bill was originally intended to be considered for the start of the new financial year, but, obviously, it moved on and had the select committee process, and the Justice Committee\u2019s report gave the amendment for, as has been noted, the commencement date to be the day after Royal assent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002281a465eb20294645bc63efa635c80cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022a46afcae38e34a84a52f5804f5d72e23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281a465eb20294645bc63efa635c80cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a46afcae38e34a84a52f5804f5d72e23\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228303f3c87b994a05ac0eeda099f83bd5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000675\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022276b2e6c4b104f07a79cadd81a3f4815\u0022\u003EClause 3  Principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022faab350cb85046768c07b906c1f0bf97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022faab350cb85046768c07b906c1f0bf97\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to clause 3, the debate on the principal Act. The question is that clause 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u002279d9adc2a2f4478f8d016d5cbed37885\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279d9adc2a2f4478f8d016d5cbed37885\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Look, there\u2019s so much to talk about in clause 3. Of course, clause 3 identifies the principal Act\u2014the Legal Services Act 2011\u2014and says, \u201CThis Act amends the Legal Services Act\u201D. Of course, on this side of the House we don\u2019t think it does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EWe don\u2019t think it amends the Legal Services Act at all. It just says the blindingly and bleatingly obvious\u2014namely, that when you enter into a contract with a community law centre, that contract can be not only for community legal services but also for funding, facilitating, and otherwise supporting the provision of community legal services. I think that it should just say: \u201CThis Act relates to the Legal Services Act 2011.\u201D, because that\u2019s all it really does. It doesn\u2019t actually change anything. It sort of just waves vaguely in the direction of the Legal Services Act and says, \u201CWhy don\u2019t we just add some unnecessary and largely meaningless words to it?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EI think let\u2019s call it: \u201CThis Act relates to\u201D. Actually, you could probably do better than that: \u201CThis Act unnecessarily points towards and vaguely changes the Legal Services Act.\u201D If this Government wants to waste taxpayer money on legislation like this, so be it. Let\u2019s say it. Maybe that\u2019s what it should say somewhere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EWe passed the title clause; we could have put a wasting money and time title, but we won\u2019t do that. We won\u2019t do that; there you go. Let\u2019s say that the Act does what, in fact, it does: just sort of vaguely points towards and adds some unnecessary words to the Legal Service Act 2011.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u002268b09cb37dce4e3b930f59c3cdcc1b2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268b09cb37dce4e3b930f59c3cdcc1b2f\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I do have a question on clause 3, the principal Act. As the previous speaker, the Hon Dr Duncan Webb, articulated, this bill assumes an amendment to the Legal Services Act, but I actually don\u2019t want to talk about the use of the verb here but talk specifically in terms of the Legal Services Act itself\u2014noting that, in the Legal Services Act, the sections pertaining to the community law centre are sections 93 to 96. Indeed, in the next, subsequent clause\u2014we\u2019ll get to it soon\u2014we are amending section 94.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EHowever, what is interesting is where the section that relates to community law centres sits. It sits under Part 3 of the Legal Services Act 2011, which is the administration of legal service systems. The issue then comes to the fact that, when you are looking at the other parts of Part 3\u2014for example, \u201CFunction of Secretary for Justice and Legal Service Commissioner\u201D is Subpart 1; \u201CQuality assurance systems for providers\u201D is Subpart 2\u2014it doesn\u2019t relate to the context and the detail of some of the elements that we see in sections 93 and 96. For example, in section 93, immediately preceding the section that we are amending in this bill, it talks about the definition of the community law centre.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI want to check with the Minister of Justice, then: if that is the case, when this bill was first considered and introduced, why wasn\u2019t there a broader consideration of potentially reshuffling or moving around some of the sections of the community law centre, potentially into another part or as a separate and distinct part\u2014as you see in some of the earlier parts with legal aid\u2014so that it stands alone as its individual part?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ENow, the other reason that I\u2019m suggesting\u2014and again, this then potentially would have allayed the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s, I guess, reminder\u2014that this bill in itself is not necessarily the most substantial bill, but I\u2019m just suggesting that there could have been other things that could have been done that packaged things together. If there was any consideration of the Minister that other parts of it were considered to be separated out, also considering that the special fund element only relates to this part, which means that there is a special place of this part\u2014so I think that the legal services or the community law centre aspect should deserve its own sections. That\u2019s my second question: whether the Minister or the officials ever considered having, rather than this being a Subpart\u00A03 of Part\u00A03, to have to be a standalone part within the Legal Services Act 2011.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022 data-id=\u00222f3ff3f130bd4360b7e60a11d0a0b1e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f3ff3f130bd4360b7e60a11d0a0b1e8\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m going to stand to make a similar but different point to Dr Duncan Webb, which is that, yes, while this on its face says that it amends the Legal Services Act, in fact, the change that the Government want to make doesn\u2019t. The way in which the Government have worded this change amends it, in my view, for the worst\u2014for the worst.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EMaybe you can get away with saying that you do amend the Act, but I think the language used in the amendment actually adds a level of unclarity, and therefore I hope that, in the next part, when I speak to the amendments that I\u2019m proposing, the Government will accept those amendments to actually make the law clear. In which case, we go back to Duncan Webb\u2019s argument that it\u2019s not needed because the Act already says that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EIt is very perplexing, once again, why the Government believe that this is truly an amendment that changes the law and, again, why it was needed. The advice from the Minister is that Crown Law said that clarity would be useful. I\u2019m a little bit puzzled as to whether there are other circumstances at play in terms of Crown Law\u2019s advice that the committee isn\u2019t aware of. It just seems to me to be\u2014I mean, with any Government you, of course, have to prioritise what you\u2019re doing. There will be times when there is law that should be tweaked or clarified.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI spoke to Geoffrey Palmer the other day, who said to me there\u2019s a\u2014[Interruption] Let me tell you about that conversation. He said to me there\u2019s a whole host of legislation\u2014[Interruption] Oh, I can\u2019t believe you don\u2019t want to hear what Sir Geoffrey said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f066407a80646fb9538f9a7e494eb33\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I can\u2019t hear the member speaking, so that means it\u2019s too noisy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9898a3362154df4892563dbdd442796\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS\u003C/span\u003E: He said to me that there is a whole host of legislation, both primary and secondary, on the book that really ought to be repealed\u2014not even tweaked, but actually repealed\u2014because it simply doesn\u2019t apply to modern New Zealand. His view was that a good way for a Government to spend time, if you were serious about clarifying the law, would be to ask the Law Commission to undertake a project where they assess past primary legislation and secondary legislation and recommend repeals or updates. You could have the equivalent of kind of the slab bill which we dealt with in the last Parliament, but it would be a mass repeals bill that would really tidy up and clarify the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003ENow, that\u2019s a good way to spend one\u2019s time. The question is: why look at this one on its own and make a tweak which is unnecessary? Again, it really does seem very unusual, and I\u2019m looking forward to hearing the Minister\u2019s response to both that as well as to Sir Geoffrey\u2019s suggestion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4b0290e7d4b4ee9acd9451eba41313b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4b0290e7d4b4ee9acd9451eba41313b\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E While I acknowledge that a number of members of the Opposition consider their advice to the Government might be superior to that of Crown Law, the Government did, in fact, seek advice from Crown Law and, after considering that advice, decided that it would be preferable to make this clarification with this amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f111048ae5a4b77b2be86987bd8aafb\u0022 data-id=\u00222d330ffb5b5f4c4987cdb3e98ff3ba7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f111048ae5a4b77b2be86987bd8aafb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d330ffb5b5f4c4987cdb3e98ff3ba7b\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1f71061771b44188787ad4c957a6d63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1f71061771b44188787ad4c957a6d63\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I just have a very short question\u2014just to acknowledge the fact that I thank you for your engagement, Minister, but if you wouldn\u2019t mind responding to my question as well, that would be greatly appreciated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EJust further on, in terms of the question that I had, I guess the reason I\u2019ve asked if the Minister has considered taking this particular part out of a subpart of Part 3, under the \u201CAdministration of legal services system\u201D, and into this undistinctive part\u2014very similar to Part 2, \u201CLegal Aid\u201D\u2014is because the concern that I will have then is whether we\u2019re still going to be looking at the Special Fund being able to be ring-fenced for the use of the community law centre or whether it will also be looking at being used by other parts of Part 3 or other aspects of the legal services system, like the surveyor or assurers that I mentioned before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022 data-id=\u002260ffff05b7fa4b55a00c14562d0a4694\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260ffff05b7fa4b55a00c14562d0a4694\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E In answer to the earlier question from that member, I will note that the Government sought advice from Crown Law, took note of the advice from Crown Law, gave it consideration, and came up with this amendment from it. This is the amendment that we chose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc18fca1517544d48a85a448eabd4308\u0022 data-id=\u0022421f3f01f90048efa43e75b3f7658115\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc18fca1517544d48a85a448eabd4308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022421f3f01f90048efa43e75b3f7658115\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022da1723c8714f4c55b293ad7b5d08bed3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000699\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002298fec84220284bb8826b8e20ee9d23f3\u0022\u003EClause 4  Section 94 amended (Secretary may enter into contracts with community law centres)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00221055b09a5ba34d54b840ec50a5048174\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221055b09a5ba34d54b840ec50a5048174\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to our final debate. This is the debate on the amendment to section 94, \u201CSecretary may enter into contracts with community law centres\u201D. The scope of this bill is very narrow and is focused on the entering into of contracts with community law centres. Therefore, I\u2019m ruling Vanushi Walters\u2019 amendment for the secretary to consider the need for culturally appropriate services when contracting for community legal services, while within the scope of the bill, should be debated within this clause for debate, because it is better considered as a new subsection (2) to section 94.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022 data-id=\u00221cd4d3237cdb4a578076db91b85d9ec5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221cd4d3237cdb4a578076db91b85d9ec5\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ve been looking forward to debating clause 4 and speaking to my amendments. We will turn to the first one. I made the point in the last clause that my sense was that, actually, the amendments made things less clear, rather than clarifying, so hopefully these amendments will be received well by the Minister for the Environment. The first one is in clause 4, to replace new section 94(1)(a) with \u201C(a) purchase community legal services and/or\u201D. The current clause has \u201C(a) purchase community legal services:\u201D\u2014little colon\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c74516a12d248c59c24d54702db81b4\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Should that be a semicolon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223461412cab5f4539940d6b74adbce92e\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! And then it\u2019s got paragraph (b). What that might mean in practice is that, for contracts to comply with the Act, there would need to be two separate contracts, depending on whether community legal services were being contracted for or whether services to fund, facilitate, or otherwise support the provision of community legal services was being accommodated for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EIf the argument is that this is about contracts for a community law centre on the ground and what we\u2019re wanting to do is cover some of their background support costs, etc., then I think what we absolutely would need\u2014for clarity\u2019s sake, given that is what this bill is claiming to do\u2014is to just adopt that little \u201Cand/or\u201D to make sure we are clarifying this and make sure we don\u2019t need to come back and use another urgency session to add \u201Cand/or\u201D maybe in a couple of weeks\u2019 time. This is getting so comical that I really couldn\u2019t put it past this Government to do something like that. Please, to the Minister, would she please consider doing that? I believe that that was a recommendation from the Law Society\u2014another very capable group of lawyers. They saw that the intention was for this bill to bring about a whole lot of clarity, and they\u2019ve helped us out with that suggestion. I\u2019ve put it in an amendment, and I think that that would be prudent for the Minister to accept.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003ENow, the only reason why you would leave it as-is is if the intention was not to cover that gap of community law centres on the ground, but the intention was to ensure that support services of a different kind were being covered and that those support services exist in a different contract. What I\u2019m thinking, essentially, is a body like Community Law Centres Aotearoa, for example, who may or may not be engaged in direct legal services but who certainly coordinate and provide support and ensure that there\u2019s coordination between the different community law centres\u2014if the intent was to cover those in separate contracts, then I can absolutely see that you would want to keep them separate. But, from what the Minister has said thus far and from what I\u2019ve seen in the papers, that\u2019s not the intent. The intent is to cover community law centre contracts on the ground. This is centres like YouthLaw; this is centres like M\u0101ngere. M\u0101ngere, interestingly, has a lot of history as one of the earliest community law centres as well. I understand David Lange was quite involved. He was the MP for M\u0101ngere at the time and was very involved in the setting up of that community law centre. I don\u2019t think they could have imagined the impact and the coordination that community law centres now have across the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EInitially, when they were set up, it wasn\u2019t a Government initiative to set up community law centres across the country in a kind of fair and equitable way. They arose because individual advocates were advocating for those centres from the ground up. Contracts were quite different. Again, the way they started, a lot of it was direct legal services - heavy, and then that administration across community law centres really grew in the background.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve only managed to just speak to my first amendment and I have two more. As you\u2019ve indicated, the third has been more suitable to address in this clause, so I really would like to continue and I will be seeking the call to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EAlso on M\u0101ngere, I would also say that Judge Becroft, our former Children\u2019s Commissioner, was highly involved not only in setting up M\u0101ngere but actually also in setting up YouthLaw. If you look at the history of community law centres, you\u2019ll find that there\u2019s a string of similar people who set up those first initial community law centres who then went on to seed other community law centres as well, and Judge Becroft is one of those people who, of course, along with Robert Ludbrook, then set up YouthLaw. I knew Robert very well and had the sad\u2014Robert passed not long ago. Well, it\u2019s probably last year now, but I attended his funeral. It was extraordinary the reach that he had in terms of community law, but also into other parts of the voluntary legal advice sector. There were older members of the Black Panthers there as well, who talked about how Robert had been pivotal in terms of providing advice to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThis idea of providing free legal services sprung out of lawyers just kind of doing it. Then the architecture came up in response to grassroots contracts that were negotiated with then the Legal Service Agency. You can see how administration was really at the back of everyone\u2019s minds. Again, I think if we\u2019re going to get it right this time in terms of those support services, let\u2019s do it right. I do hope the Minister agrees with that first proposal. Moving to the second proposal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fed2302d46074e78851c5cf2107c463e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: And probably the third one in this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f12327cfaa5f40cd9320be83c3b89ade\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS\u003C/span\u003E: Moving to the second one, which is also on clause 4, this one is to replace new section 94(1)(b) with language that says, \u201Cfund matters that enable, facilitate, and otherwise support the provision of community legal services\u201D. This one was a suggestion directly from Community Law, because they didn\u2019t believe that the language the Government had adopted was clear. Again, this is just comical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EAgain, you\u2019ve got a proposal from\u2014sorry, it was a proposal from the Parliamentary Counsel Office in response to what Community Law had said at the Justice Committee. You\u2019ve got a proposal directly from the entity who you\u2019re trying to help out, you\u2019re trying to clarify the scope of their role, and they\u2019ve gone, \u201CHere\u2019s what we\u2019d like you to say.\u201D You have Parliamentary Counsel Office who draft the language for that. It seems a little odd to me that we wouldn\u2019t then include it within the bill. Again, I would say we don\u2019t want to be here, back in urgency, doing this again for clarity\u2019s sake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThe last amendment tabled is what I had proposed would be a new clause 5, but on the instructions of the Chair, I understand that it would be more suited to be included as part of clause 4. I\u2019m happy for that to be the case. That is to insert a new section that \u201Cthe Secretary must consider culturally appropriate services when contracting for community legal services.\u201D It further says that \u201Cwhen exercising the power under section 94(1), the Secretary must consider the need for community legal services that are culturally appropriate for all parts of New Zealand society, including kaupapa M\u0101ori services.\u201D Community Law has, since I was there, before I was there, and post, had kaupapa M\u0101ori community legal services with increasing growth. This is just an ask that we embed that within the statute to recognise that it is incredibly important that that\u2019s explicitly there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EMany years ago, community law centres were told by the former National Government that there would be potentially many fewer community law centres. It created this sense of competition for contracts, which I think really disadvantaged the sector. Eventually, we moved past that and there was a lot more cooperation, in my view, under a Labour Government. But, again, I think, when you have statutory direction about what is protected and what the expectations are, then it makes for a sector who can cooperate and plan together much more effectively. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022c79ce3c53ad1489c9c6d7d9c651923cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c79ce3c53ad1489c9c6d7d9c651923cb\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I note and acknowledge the suggested proposed amendments from the member. I can clarify for the member that the current drafting denotes that contracts can be made for either or both of the purposes stated in the new section 94(1)(a) and (b). The proposed amendments from the member aren\u2019t necessary. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9a1e32b200040728564d92dc84e6c19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9a1e32b200040728564d92dc84e6c19\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I have, actually, a really quite important question, and then I have a request. The question I have is: has the Minister or her officials turned their mind to the validity of pre-existing contracts? Now, I have an tabled amendment\u2014which I think is on the Table; certainly, it\u2019s been delivered to the Clerks\u2014which proposes, in clause 4, adding the following new subsection which would say: \u201Call contracts entered into by the secretary to fund, facilitate, and in other ways support the provision of legal services are valid regardless of when they were entered into and, in particular, whether or not they were entered into prior to section 94(1)(b) coming into force\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EIf this is a tidy-up, which you\u2019re saying it is, and there are contracts out there\u2014because the problem is, as I understand it, and I was talking to my colleague Camilla Belich about this a moment ago, \u201Clegal services\u201D is defined in the Act, and it\u2019s defined, arguably, relatively narrowly. There\u2019s an assumption, if you use the word \u201Clegal services\u201D when you\u2019re talking about contracting, that you\u2019re using the defined term. There are exceptions to that, but that\u2019s the general interpretive approach. If you\u2019ve done that and you\u2019ve entered into these contracts and the money\u2019s been spent on support services and professional development and all these other things, then there\u2019s a question about whether the money was actually spent in breach of the contracts, because they were for legal services. That\u2019s the first thing, and I\u2019d really appreciate if the Minister could let us know\u2014perhaps take some advice and say, \u201CNo, there is no problem\u201D, or \u201CThere is a problem, but we don\u2019t care about it\u201D, or \u201CThere is a problem and we can expect another bill to fix that very shortly.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EThe second question is this\u2014because you\u2019ve got Community Law Centres of Aotearoa saying that, in fact, this bill\u2019s not necessary on their reading of the law; you\u2019ve got the New Zealand Law Society saying, as I understand it, pretty much the same thing, and they\u2019re happy to provide the illegal reasoning; but you\u2019ve got a bit of a black box when it comes to Crown Law advice. We\u2019re all scratching our heads thinking, \u201CWell, they\u2019re seeing something we can\u2019t see.\u201D For something as innocuous as whether this amendment in clause 4 is needed, it will be really useful to provide the Crown Law advice. For something like this, it\u2019s not top secret; it\u2019s not some big issue. It\u2019s just, \u201CWell, we\u2019ve got to this position for the following reasons.\u201D It would be really nice to see that\u2014because, although I accept that my feeble mind isn\u2019t up to the might of Crown Law, some of my colleagues are pretty clever, and I respect the Law Society and Community Law Centres of Aotearoa to get it right. At the moment, Crown Law\u2019s the outlier here. It\u2019d be great to see their advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s two questions. Certainly, the first one is important: do existing contracts breach this legislation; and, if so, what\u2019s being done about it? The second is: can we have a squiz\u2014a bit of a gander\u2014at the Crown Law advice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022 data-id=\u00226771d03839b94e7598ced8e443057b56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226771d03839b94e7598ced8e443057b56\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E To answer Dr Webb\u2019s questions from his multichoice that he gave me, there is no problem; the contracts remain valid. To your second question, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u002226c609ae2f36457db509dce5c0392537\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226c609ae2f36457db509dce5c0392537\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to seek the Minister\u2019s guidance or support on one of my amendments to the bill. This is an amendment that is dated 4.36.01.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EEssentially, the current wording of section 94(1)(b), inserted by clause 4 of the bill, states: \u201Cfund, facilitate, and otherwise support the provision of community legal services.\u201D As some of the other members have mentioned, how it interacts with what is now section 94(1)(a), inserted by clause 4 of the bill, is it has a lot of comparables. My amendment over here clarifies\u2014and this is, again, a recommendation by a submitter and particularly by the Community Law Centre Aotearoa, who deal with this every day, and they are one half of this contractual agreement\u2014that rather than saying \u201Cfund, facilitate, and otherwise support the provision of community legal services\u201D, it\u2019s better to say the words: \u201Cfund functions that enable, facilitate, or support the provision of community legal services\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI think the idea that the function aspect of this particular section is incredibly important. Otherwise what you are seeing is that the Secretary for Justice, in fact, then is logged into a contractual obligation to not just fund but also facilitate and support provisions of community legal services. I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s the intention of the Secretary to also facilitate such provisions. Again, when we are looking at something like this, we\u2019ve got three consecutive verbs with a very nice use of an Oxford comma, but, again, I don\u2019t think that is the intention of this bill. My recommendation is to clarify that the secretary is only funding the function, and the facilitation of the support of the provision of the community legal service remains with Community Law Centre Aotearoa. I want to seek the Minister\u2019s guidance on whether she will support my amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022 data-id=\u0022c187cd9a819047228fba4d7324844717\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c187cd9a819047228fba4d7324844717\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just a short call from me, really, in response to some of the comments that the Minister has made in response to Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s issue that he raised. The Minister\u2014and you can correct me if this is incorrect\u2014seemed to say that there\u2019s no problem with the contracts and that they remain in place. If that is the case, then what is the purpose of this bill? As I understand it, the entire purpose of this bill is to secure the contractual arrangements moving forward. Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s question was: if that\u2019s correct, then surely we should ensure that the previous spending on contracts is also not going to be affected by the fact that this change allegedly needs to be made?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s made in good faith; it\u2019s a helpful suggestion. If there is genuinely an issue with previous funding, then something should be done to ensure that that funding isn\u2019t challenged or that the contractual arrangements that happened in the past were made in a way that was consistent with the law. If it wasn\u2019t, then that\u2019s problematic, and if what the Minister said is correct, then why are we making this change?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f111048ae5a4b77b2be86987bd8aafb\u0022 data-id=\u0022c84aeda2c2ce4bccaf31eaa4a794ccf7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f111048ae5a4b77b2be86987bd8aafb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c84aeda2c2ce4bccaf31eaa4a794ccf7\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228ce3d9de06be440abc112d63ee5bd2e0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f446eedf12c34c87a6e5ccfeccf6bca0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f446eedf12c34c87a6e5ccfeccf6bca0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Vanushi Walters\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 4 amending paragraph (a) is out of order as not offering a serious alternative form of words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EVanushi Walters\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 4 amending paragraph (b) is out of order as not offering a serious alternative form of words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4 amending paragraph (b) of section 94(1) is out of order as not offering a serious alternative form of words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EThe question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4 inserting new subsection (1A) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c776040482284b419ff3432325beb5c6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d31c7e740a794acb973cb3339ff37d74\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d31c7e740a794acb973cb3339ff37d74\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Vanushi Walters\u2019 tabled amendment regarding the need for culturally appropriate services be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bca6099201d1403e8e3e7ad4596b8356\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000733\u0022\u003EClause 4 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000734\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000735\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad6851103853487297d21d3f4d8e45d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad6851103853487297d21d3f4d8e45d6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Legal Services (Distribution of Special Fund) Amendment Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022852a207f41a94bc1aaacfa25043248af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022852a207f41a94bc1aaacfa25043248af\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ab7e4fb67f2545f3bd08c68c998b1866\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a96d6d94a5f743c3bf456842513d424b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a96d6d94a5f743c3bf456842513d424b\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Justice: I move, That the Legal Services (Distribution of Special Fund) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003EThis bill amends the Legal Services Act 2011 to broaden the use of the Lawyers and Conveyancers Special Fund. Money in the special fund must be paid to the Secretary for Justice for the purpose of funding community law centres. The special fund serves an important role to ensure that people can access free legal help in the community. However, there is ambiguity around whether special fund money can be used to meet expenses incurred by community law centres when delivering community law services. This is because the current law is narrowly framed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003EThis bill makes a minor change to broaden the use of the special fund. This will enable the Secretary for Justice to enter into contracts to also fund, facilitate, and otherwise support the provision of community legal services by community law centres. It is important to support the long-term funding of organisations that deliver community legal services and ensure people are able to access the legal help they need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003ETo conclude, I\u2019d like to thank members for their support of this bill. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00221691913b694c4fd89d7993ad616f67e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221691913b694c4fd89d7993ad616f67e7\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u002274afbb95bd9949bb87b1a98d9cd4db86\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274afbb95bd9949bb87b1a98d9cd4db86\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. What a momentous day it is as we add 12 words to the Legal Services Act! We\u2019ve made our position clear: we\u2019re not going to stand in the way of this bill passing\u2014well, not for very long anyway\u2014because community law centres are really important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EI must say it\u2019s good to know that there\u2019s cross-party support for the continued existence\u2014and, hopefully, the flourishing\u2014of our community law network, because, as the Minister pointed out and other members have observed, community law centres fill a really important gap in access to justice. Access to justice is essential to the rule of law, and the ability to not only go to court\u2014which is only one aspect of access to justice\u2014but also just to know your rights and also to know how you can sort your stuff out in a legal sense is actually really, really important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003ETo a large part, it\u2019s that second aspect that community law centres fill. They are able to talk to people and say, \u201CWell, look, we think you\u2019re in the right\u201D, or \u201CYou\u2019re in the wrong\u201D, or \u201CThere\u2019s some middle ground\u201D\u2014but also navigating how then to vindicate those rights. Many a time people say, \u201CI want to go to court and sue\u201D, and so on, and, look, maybe that\u2019s the right course, but many a time there\u2019s another way, whether it be through an alternative tribunal, one of our many ombudsman dispute resolution schemes, or the disputes tribunal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EThat kind of information and just that helping hand\u2014because, I can remember, I both used to volunteer at the community law centre, I used to be a supervising solicitor at the community law centre, and I\u2019ve sat on the board of a community law centre. Quite often, people might think their issues are trivial\u2014\u201CI\u2019ve bought this appliance, this washing machine, for $600 and it\u2019s broken.\u201D Now, for some of us, that would not be a particularly troubling thing, but for other people in the community, that is catastrophic because the weekly surplus that they have is so small that that sets them back in a very significant way. To be able to sit down and say, \u201CWell, look, that retailer might have given you the brush off, but the first step is to go back to the retailer and let them know a few things.\u201D\u2014the first thing you need to let them know is that you\u2019ve clearly taken some advice, just on the lowdown. The second thing is that you know what your rights are; that you can\u2019t simply be told, \u201CWell, it\u2019s two years old, so it\u2019s out of warranty.\u201D The third thing is to let them know that, if you don\u2019t get satisfaction there, you know where to go next.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003ENine times out of 10, equipping an ordinary New Zealander with those three facts will be more than enough to solve their problem. All of a sudden, the person at the counter doesn\u2019t dismiss them out of hand; they go and get their manager and their manager knows that there\u2019s a thing called the Consumer Guarantees Act. That is really empowering, so our community law centres do need to be funded properly. The Canterbury community law centre does a great job down there in Christchurch, but one of the things that is really important\u2014and perhaps this bill will make sure continues\u2014is making sure those lawyers stay up to date and they\u2019re well resourced. Recently, I know they went through and reviewed all their salaries to make sure they\u2019re paid on a scale which was not derisory\u2014which arguably had been the case\u2014and also to make sure they get further education so that, when the law does change, they can make sure they\u2019re giving up-to-date law; and also that they have all the research tools they need, that they can go online and look at the legal commentaries and the statutes and so on and so forth, which will cost money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EIf that\u2019s what this bill does, all well and good. We think it was probably the case anyway, but we\u2019ve been told it\u2019s not, so that\u2019s why we\u2019ll be supporting this bill further in this House. I mean, if you think about it\u2014and there is that problem: I\u2019m disappointed that, in the committee of the whole House, the Minister in the chair, the Hon Penny Simmonds, didn\u2019t really give a great deal of comfort as to contracts which were already extant. It may be that the Crown Law advice that she won\u2019t let us see says that this doesn\u2019t affect existing contractual arrangements, but there is a question about that. The definition of \u201Clegal services\u201D in the Legal Services Act is a little bit narrower. I had thought that it was relating to the lawyers and conveyancers definition, which is a very broad definition. It, essentially, says what services are regulated services, and legal services there can be all kinds of services, but a slightly narrower definition, I think, in the Legal Services Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003ELook, it\u2019s a piece of legislation which is saying it\u2019s necessary, but again, I just want to really make sure that, across all parties, we ensure that the special fund that this bill talks about is properly resourced. One of the things which has happened recently is that interest rates have been relatively high. We can talk about that in other contexts later, but one of the upsides of that is that the money going into the special fund has actually been pretty good. We were in a very low-interest environment; the Government actually\u2014and it was the Labour Government that did it\u2014had to top up the special fund. That hasn\u2019t been necessary recently, but it\u2019s perfectly possible that, as interest rates do go up and down, that will need to happen again. It\u2019s good to see that, from what I have heard in the relatively short speeches from the other side, there is a commitment to ensuring that lower-income people do get free legal services, and therefore I\u2019m inferring they will be properly funded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EOf course, the other thing is that it\u2019s not just low-income people. Community law centres generally have an open-door policy. Community law centres don\u2019t tend to seek as customers middle-class and wealthy people who can get their own legal advice and pay for it, but they also come in, particularly in the kinds of clinics that they have where you can have a drop in and ask a few quick questions. It\u2019s not just low- and super-low - income people; it\u2019s a wide range of people that come in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EAlso, just recognising that, in terms of early intervention, the work the community law centres do in the family space is really, really good, because when people break up and have property issues and care of child and children issues, getting to sort that out at an early stage, before it gets tangled and acrimonious, can be a really, really useful thing. What perhaps we don\u2019t understand is that, many a time, people split up and no lawyer sees it\u2014often ever\u2014but that\u2019s not a good outcome sometimes for the children in particular in the relationship, because it\u2019s always better to have some kind of structure around how that child is cared for; how the child is funded, right? Child support either within the IRD system or outside of it is an important part, and our community law centres funded through the special fund are a really good part of that. I\u2019m sorry if I\u2019m boring you Vanessa Weenink, but, you know\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc18fca1517544d48a85a448eabd4308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216a07af74e324860a983cf5ce909fe39\u0022\u003ERima Nakhle\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. You\u2019re not boring us; not at all!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f27221839554470b078d24b4a0f85d5\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Wakey, wakey. It\u2019s been a long day. I must say the other thing that we need to address about the special fund is the proportion of it that goes to community law centres, in terms of the interest on trust accounts, whether it remains appropriate that banks keep 40 percent of the interest on trust accounts. You\u2019ve got to remember that\u2019s clients\u2019 money. The general rule should be it goes back to the client, but, in this case, the legislature has intervened and said, \u201CLet\u2019s use it for community law centres\u201D\u2014and then said\u2014\u201Cand let the banks keep 40 percent of it.\u201D That\u2019s a pretty significant share. As I think I said earlier, perhaps in the second reading, that\u2019s about $10\u00A0million of interest that would go to clients or the special fund that the banks are getting. I mean, of those three people\u2014clients, poor people needing legal services, and banks\u2014I know where I think it should go, and I know the least deserving of it. But there you go; that\u2019s something we can address on another occasion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EThis is a bill that\u2019s not urgent, that could have gone in a statutes amendment bill, that\u2019s probably unnecessary and doesn\u2019t address all of the problems it needs to address, but we\u2019re generous people on this side of the House; we\u2019ll probably support it anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e60938f3a88d4ae99aa43c54967b4410\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e60938f3a88d4ae99aa43c54967b4410\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The time has come for the dinner break. The House will resume at 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6.01 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022226c952af2494aad99e5838df060e843\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022226c952af2494aad99e5838df060e843\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Good evening, members. When we broke for the dinner break, we were debating the Legal Services (Distribution of Special Fund) Amendment Bill. We are up to call No. 3 in the third reading; it\u2019s a Green Party call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u00227d865cbf54ea4eedbcc900acb3af5b70\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d865cbf54ea4eedbcc900acb3af5b70\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Green Party to support this bill in its third reading. As I\u2019ve mentioned in my second reading speech, this is a bill that was originally introduced under Budget urgency, and it was something we opposed initially but, through a very thorough select committee stage as well as engagement with the submitters, we have now supported this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThis bill was something that we did go through in the select committee stage, and I want to just highlight some of the key points during the committee stage that deserve some attention on this bill. Understandably, this is a small bill\u2014only four clauses\u2014yet we were able to have a good discussion on each of the clauses. I think, particularly, let\u2019s start with clause 1 from a title perspective; we did have quite a robust conversation around the title. I would really like to thank the member Camilla Belich, in particular, as well as Vanushi Walters, who gave a very good and an insightful history of the context of Community Law Centres Aotearoa that brings this bill to us. It\u2019s now been wrapped into the Legal Services Act 2011. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EIt is unfortunate that the Minister did not take on board my title amendment, and the main reason for that is because the main reason I\u2019m putting the amendment is because I do believe that \u201Cdistribution\u201D, in this case, is not the appropriate word to use. I think it might have been the member Camilla Belich\u2019s suggestion that \u201Cclarification of distribution of special fund\u201D would have been much more insightful, or \u201Cclarification of special fund\u201D, because it simply is not actually to do with the distribution of the fund itself. In that sense, the title can be interpreted as a little bit misleading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EIn terms of the commencement date, we saw that the commencement date has changed: it\u2019s now the day after Royal assent. The original commencement date is 1 July 2025. There is a level of significance because, as I mentioned, this is a bill that was introduced under urgency in May, but only the first reading was introduced under urgency, and there was no motion that had been brought to the House at the time that it was going to have a shortened select committee stage. It was a question that we raised with the Minister\u2014we weren\u2019t able to get that in select committee, but it was a question we raised with the Minister during the committee stage\u2014on how they\u2019re intending to have this bill and this Act come into force on 1 July 2025, when they were still in the process of the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EAlso, at the same time, members asked the Minister questions around whether, between 1 July 2025\u2014considering that it was introduced under Budget urgency; therefore, understandably, there will be some Budget implications\u2014but considering that, with the Budget implications, what has changed, if anything, and what impact does it have to the Government or to the implementation or the commencement of this bill now that, even after Royal assent, you\u2019re looking at a four-and-a-half month delay in terms of the commencement, and whether there\u2019s any significant issues?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThen we moved on to the principal Act of this bill, and that is clause 3. I think this is the area that we did spend a little bit of time on during the committee stage. It\u2019s important to highlight the fact that this bill\u2014and I\u2019ll talk more about clause 4\u2014but this bill is a very small bill that could have been wrapped into the Statutes Amendment Bill, which was something that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb has mentioned, but instead it\u2019s being introduced as a separate bill. We did check with the Minister to see if it was going to be wrapped into its individual bill that that deserves a select committee process and everything separate, beyond what we see in the Statutes Amendment Bill; whether there has been any thoughts about wrapping in other things from the Legal Services Act into it as part of a package, particularly when we are looking at the fact that the community law centres part of the Legal Services Act\u2014it occupies Subpart 3 of Part 3, \u201CAdministration of legal services system\u201D, specifically sections 93 to 96, and section 94 is what\u2019s being amended here\u2014whether there\u2019s been any consideration on expanding the scope and potentially looking at separating out the community law centres into its own part within the Legal Services Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThe rationale for that is\u2014well, there are two reasons for that. Number one is, in terms of sections 93 to 96 on community law centres, it doesn\u2019t necessarily fit nicely under the definition of \u201CAdministration of legal service system\u201D , similar to other subparts of that Part 3 of the principal Act. Also, other legal service providers\u2014legal aid, for example\u2014have their own section: it\u2019s Part 2 of the Legal Services Act. If legal aid has its own section, then presumably there is a possibility that community law centres should also have its own section within that particular Act. Also, another important part is that this particular bill deals with special fund, and \u201Cspecial fund\u201D in principal legislation is only applicable to community law centres. By embedding it as a subpart of a major part, questions were raised on whether that is going to mean expanding, or whether we\u2019re still going to be able to maintain the integrity of the ring-fencing of that particular fund within that particular subpart.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EFinally, the crux of the bill is clause 4, which has the most significant amendment. Now, this is something that I think the member Vanushi Walters has raised a number of really significant tabled amendments around, which weren\u2019t accepted, and it\u2019s a shame because a lot of that actually came from the submitters themselves in terms of the amendment. It came from legal experts in the New Zealand Law Society; it came from the Community Law Centres Aotearoa themselves, which is the most affected by this particular legislation\u2014so it was unfortunate that the Minister wasn\u2019t receptive of some of these amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI do want to mention my specific tabled amendment, as well, that the Minister didn\u2019t really consider as a part of that, which I actually think is an important one, because the current wording of clause 4, amended section 94(1)(b), does say \u201Cfund, facilitate, and otherwise support\u201D in the context of the secretary. The clarification I have\u2014and this also came from the Community Law Centres Aotearoa\u2019s submission\u2014is that it should state that the secretary is \u201Cfunding the functions that enable, facilitate, or support the provision of community legal services\u201D. The reason I want to raise this as a particularly important aspect is the way that we\u2019re looking at a succession of sequential verbs\u2014of using \u201Cfund, facilitate, and otherwise support\u201D\u2014also, then, would imply that it\u2019s also the secretary\u2019s role to facilitate and otherwise support the provisions, when, in fact, my assumption is that the secretary\u2019s role is to fund, and the functions of that remains with the Community Law Centres Aotearoa, which then ties into the \u201Cfacilitate, or support the provisions of community legal services\u201D. This is something that the Minister wasn\u2019t able to support, but I\u2019m hoping that, by mentioning this particular nuance, it does give a scope for, potentially, both Crown Law and the Ministry of Justice, but also provides some sort of clarification in terms of interpretation for the Community Law Centres Aotearoa, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ETo conclude, the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand does support this bill. We do recognise that, although this is a small bill\u2014and we\u2019ve heard a lot of murmurs from the Government side as we were debating this bill during the committee of the whole House stage\u2014but it is a bill that has been introduced. It is, out of a lot of the bills that have been introduced by the Government, reasonably benign, or actually completely benign. If we\u2019re going to be able to see more bills being introduced like this, this is something that we could actually encourage and have something that is reasonably benign that everyone could support. With that, the Green Party commends this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u00226c8103efa5474e468d929050b22bb4e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c8103efa5474e468d929050b22bb4e5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in support of the Legal Services (Distribution of Special Fund) Amendment Bill. This bill makes a change to how the special fund can be used. People sitting at home who watched that last speech could be forgiven for having no idea what this bill is about or what anyone\u2019s talking about, but it\u2019s pretty simple: lawyers and conveyancers up and down New Zealand, for various reasons, have trust accounts where they hold their clients\u2019 money for a period of time. Fans of that iconic New Zealand show Outrageous Fortune may recall that Jethro got in trouble for abusing or misusing money in the trust account, and Gary Savage actually blackmailed him and stiffed him on a property deal as a result. A lot of lawyers have these trust accounts; most of them don\u2019t misuse it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EWhat\u2019s interesting is that they sometimes accrue interest when they are put in the bank, and that interest goes to the special fund and the Secretary for Justice\u2014that is, the chief executive of the New Zealand Ministry of Justice\u2014uses that money to fund community law centres. I actually think that\u2019s quite a nice feature of our legal system, because community law centres help a huge number of people and it\u2019s not obvious what else would happen with that interest that could be better than this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EBut there\u2019s a small problem. The law, as it stands in the Legal Services Act, says that it has to be used for \u201Ccommunity legal services\u201D. There\u2019s some dispute as to whether the depreciation, the maintenance, the electricity, the rent on a community law centre counts as a \u201Clegal service\u201D or another use of money. What we\u2019re doing with this legislation tonight is saying, actually, the Secretary for Justice can make some rules about what exactly is included, assuming they\u2019ll use their common sense to ensure that the money does actually go to providing community law services, even if the precise use is not paying for a lawyer to sit in a room.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s pretty sensible stuff\u2014not difficult to explain\u2014and, you know what, maybe if Lawrence Xu-Nan learnt to do that, we\u2019d put up some more agreeable bills for him. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226327e49d349443e693f980fcd245b385\u0022 data-id=\u0022974a888508204a279b73bc939f2b2d1b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226327e49d349443e693f980fcd245b385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022974a888508204a279b73bc939f2b2d1b\u0022\u003EJAMIE ARBUCKLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to support the Legal Services (Distribution of Special Fund) Amendment Bill. I\u2019m going to take you back to Budget night, because I spoke to this bill also in urgency on Budget night\u2014I was the last speaker of that session before the clock ticked over to 12 o\u2019clock, and I remember saying, as I was talking about the rest of the Budget, that that Budget was a game-changer for business, in some ways. The policy that we\u2019d announced that day in the Budget was Investment Boost, which was a game-changer, but when you take it back to this bill, this is a game-changer for access to justice and access to legal services, and that\u2019s why this bill is so important to community law services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226327e49d349443e693f980fcd245b385\u0022\u003EIn the speeches that I\u2019ve given through the first and second readings, as I said, I sat on the Justice Committee, heard the submissions, and we got that substantial submission from the Community Law Centres. The services they provide throughout New Zealand\u2014those 24 centres\u2014provide access to so many vulnerable New Zealanders. As we heard also, they gave over 27,000 education sessions in their last year. They give access to justice and to information that people require. New Zealand First supports this bill as very much a tweak so the funds can be accessed more. It also shows New Zealand First\u2019s commitment to sensible and cost-effective solutions to improving service delivery. It\u2019s about using funds that are there and not using taxpayers\u2019 money. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u002223510ead547244be99e86fd502ed19b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223510ead547244be99e86fd502ed19b2\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call. I call Tamatha Paul.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022 data-id=\u002243bc8f9b3a55493cb653f8b999d9514c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243bc8f9b3a55493cb653f8b999d9514c\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. N\u014D reira t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. E t\u016B ana ahau ki te k\u014Drero e p\u0101 ana ki t\u0113nei pire, ko te Legal Services (Distribution of Special Fund) Amendment Bill.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EKa parakitihi ahau i t\u014Dku reo rangatira, te reo o \u014D t\u0101tou t\u012Bpuna. E mihi ana ki ng\u0101 kaiwhakam\u0101ori reo M\u0101ori i roto i t\u0113nei Whare. E mihi ana ki t\u014Dku kaiako reo M\u0101ori, ko Devon Wikaira t\u014Dna ingoa. Ko Wh\u012Btiki te ingoa o t\u0101na kaupapa.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EKo te Legal Services (Distribution of Special Fund) Amendment Bill te ingoa o t\u0113nei pire. He whakaaro n\u0101 te P\u0101ti K\u0101k\u0101riki \u0113nei kupu. I te p\u0101nui tuatahi o t\u0113nei pire, i whakak\u0101hore m\u0101tou i t\u0113nei kaupapa. Ko te mea tuatahi o te whakak\u0101hore n\u0101 te whakaiti o \u0113tahi p\u016Btea m\u014D te legal aid funding ki ng\u0101 community law centres an\u014D hoki.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EE 24 ng\u0101 tari o te motu o te kaupapa o community law. I te komiti whiriwhiri, e tautoko ana a Community Law Centres of Aotearoa i t\u0113nei pire. Ar\u0101 kua whiti i t\u0101 m\u0101tou whakak\u0101hore, kua whiti i t\u0101 t\u0101tou p\u014Dti o t\u0113nei kaupapa, o t\u0113nei pire.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EKua tautoko m\u0101tou i te pire in\u0101ianei, i t\u0113nei p\u014D. I t\u0113nei p\u014D i te p\u0101nui tuatoru o t\u0113nei pire, e tautoko ana m\u0101tou i t\u0113nei kaupapa. Ko te kaupapa o t\u0113nei pire, ka toha i te p\u016Btea ki ng\u0101 hapori o te motu ki te tautoko i \u014D r\u0101tou t\u0101ngata me ng\u0101 mahi ture.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EI te w\u0101hanga 298 o te Lawyers and Conveyancers Act i te tau 2006, ko ng\u0101 ture ki te toha i aua p\u016Btea e noho ana i roto i te special fund, ka whakautu i te Secretary of Justice i ng\u0101 t\u0101ra n\u0101 te special fund. Ko te mahi a te special fund ko te koha p\u016Btea ki ng\u0101 tari o community law o te motu.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EI te w\u0101hanga 94 o te Legal Services Act i te tau 2011, e k\u014Drero ana i taua w\u0101hanga e p\u0101 ana ki ng\u0101 tikanga o \u014D r\u0101tou kawenata. Ko te mahi a t\u0113nei pire, ko te Legal Services (Distribution of Special Fund) Amendment Bill, he mahi whakapai i te Legal Services Act i te tau 2011 ki te whakaae i ng\u0101 kawenata n\u0101 te w\u0101hanga 94 o taua ture. Ko te kaupapa o taua w\u0101hanga ko te mahi tahi, ko te mahi tahi a ng\u0101 tari e mahi ana i ng\u0101 mahi ture.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003ESo \u0101e, ar\u0101 kua whakamana i t\u0113nei pire, kua tautoko ahau i t\u0113nei pire. N\u014D reira ng\u0101 mihi ki ng\u0101 kaiwhakam\u0101ori i t\u0113nei Whare Miere, kia pai t\u014D koutou wiki-mutunga. Kua ea t\u0101ku k\u014Drero n\u014D reira t\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Madam Speaker. Therefore, greetings to us all. I stand to speak about this bill, the Legal Services (Distribution of Special Fund) Amendment Bill.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EI will practice my noble language, the language of our ancestors. I would like to thank the M\u0101ori language interpreters within this House. I acknowledge my M\u0101ori language teacher; his name is Devon Wikaira. Wh\u012Btiki is the name of his programme.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EThe Legal Services (Distribution of Special Fund) Amendment Bill is the name of this bill. These words are the thoughts of the Green Party. At the first reading of this bill, we opposed this initiative. The first rationale of our opposition was the reduction of some funding for legal aid funding for community law centres.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EThe community law initiative has 24 national offices. At select committee, Community Law Centres of Aotearoa supported this bill\u2014i.e., it made it past our opposition, and it made it through our vote of this topic, of this bill.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EWe are now in support of this bill, tonight. At the third reading of this bill tonight, we support this initiative. The purpose of this bill is to distribute funding to the communities of the nation to support their people and their legal activities.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EIn section 298 of the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act 2006, the legislation for the distribution of those funds sits within the special fund, and the Secretary of Justice pays the dollar amounts for the special fund. The purpose of the special fund is to grant funding to the community law offices of the country.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EIn section 94 of the Legal Services Act 2011, that section speaks about the provisions of their covenants. The purpose of this bill, the Legal Services (Distribution of Special Fund) Amendment Bill, is to improve on the Legal Services Act 2011 to endorse the covenants in section 94 of that bill. The purpose of that section is cooperation\u2014the cooperation of the offices that work on legal matters.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003ESo yes, we have supported this bill, I have supported this bill. Therefore, I would like to thank the interpreters in this Beehive; have a good weekend. My speech is concluded, so greetings to you all in the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022 data-id=\u0022028e73da8252408e8fbd6895a326a18b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022028e73da8252408e8fbd6895a326a18b\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. One of the select committee recommendations was to change the starting date of the Act, because the original date has already passed. Therefore, it\u2019s important that we get this bill passed this evening, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa17a6c5f76e48ad96b814361002df77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa17a6c5f76e48ad96b814361002df77\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise also to support this bill, as we said we would throughout the speeches this evening. It\u2019s true that it is a very simple bill to understand. I think the two key questions that we\u2019ve been asking through the committee stage are whether clarification is really needed, which is the first one, and our view is that it wasn\u2019t\u2014our view is shared by Community Law Centres Aotearoa\u2014and the second question is: even if clarity was needed, is this the most important work that the Government should be doing for the people of New Zealand? Again, the argument was that, no, it could well have been part of a Statutes Amendment Bill, it could have been part of work that I mentioned Sir Geoffrey had suggested in terms of the review of laws that should be repealed that are on the statute book, but we are going to support it none the less.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI did notice through the course of the speeches that, on this side of the House, we had a number of people stand up and speak to their personal involvement with community law, whether it be volunteering or as members of staff or as members of the board, and it is a fantastic thing to do in terms of contributing to our community. [Interruption] I didn\u2019t quite hear that from the Government side, so just some gentle encouragement that it\u2019s not too late\u2014lawyers or non-lawyers, there are plenty of things you can do to contribute to access to justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EWhere I started my speech on the second reading was a comment on why we\u2019re in urgency. I do think that\u2019s relevant here at the third reading as well. I was recently contacted, as I\u2019m sure many of the other members were, by a group called Improving Urgency, who have a set of recommendations that they\u2019re arguing for. They\u2019re doing it precisely at this moment in time because, as we all are very familiar with, our Standing Orders are under review and this is the time when parliamentarians across the House will get to decide whether those provisions relating to urgency are good, or perhaps where something ought to be done so that we avoid the situation that we\u2019re currently in, where we see ourselves in urgency to clarify a law that community law says doesn\u2019t need to be clarified.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EImproving urgency suggests that we look at a set of criteria that would be applied to determine when urgency is needed: the presence of a genuine emergency, imminent deadlines that are linked to international commitments or legal obligations, and when the issue requires immediate legal action to prevent significant financial or reputational damage\u2014this is what they suggest in terms of where we could go. If you are fond of reading this fantastic book McGee, you will also get some direction in terms of what urgency ought to be\u2014the suggestions in there are legal reasons, emergency or unforeseen events, and political situations\u2014so it does allow for the fact where you campaigned on an issue and you are wanting to move that quickly through the House. But, again, I\u2019d just suggest that the stretch of the use of urgency is getting a little bit ridiculous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI do worry: a few people have said to me, \u201CUrgency will end at midnight, and at least that\u2019s a limit on it.\u201D In fact, we could, if the Government wanted to, go into extraordinary urgency, which, as the members on the Government benches will know, I will have a lot to say about that as I know my colleagues will on the next bill. I have certainly had a steady stream of coffee throughout the day. If we were to go into extreme urgency, as I\u2019m sure the members will want to know in advance before they make this call, the House only breaks between 8 a.m. and 9 a.m., so we\u2019ll, essentially, be going all the way through to 8 a.m., which will potentially be quite entertaining and perhaps we could see if the speeches on that side get longer, or if they get any shorter, if that\u2019s even a possibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI do want to acknowledge community law. They are an extraordinary service, and they did a study when I was there with them, back in 2018, that looked at value for money. Even back then, they had a return on investment of $50 million of free legal services each year. It cost $11 million but it was said to deliver $50 million, and that\u2019s because issues were resolved at a very, very early stage, which is fantastic. I did also want to speak to one issue, which I do think is one the House needs to continue to be mindful of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022728fb3fdeda34aeb9b809e8c1893fe42\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Extraordinary urgency ends on Saturday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261f670b3466d497993eee860d352a350\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS\u003C/span\u003E: It does end on Saturday, as Mr Seymour has said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022915f6c9636844600a9f444bdfc918e29\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: We finish at midnight anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222833ea6d90d54af18187db71bcc615a7\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS\u003C/span\u003E: That would be true for today. The opportunity is lost for this week, but why do I suspect that urgency is in our imminent future, again, but moments away? Perhaps the public can watch and see whether that might be the case, in preparation for the next lot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI did also want to just acknowledge the history of the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act in 2006. When I was going back to the Hansard to look at that bill and the changes made, I came across this beautiful quote from Nandor Tanczos. They were considering the percentage of money that the banks kept, and it looks like the select committee interrogated, even back then in 2006, whether the banks should be holding as much of the percentage of money as they are\u2014of course, currently, it\u2019s 40\u00A0percent on law. I will make the point that I understand that negotiations have happened with a number of banks who are looking at reducing that margin voluntarily. My view is very strongly that that should be reduced in statute. Nandor said, \u201CThe bill as it was introduced originally sought to amend that provision so that the banks would retain 45 percent, and community law centres would receive 55 percent,\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThe only amount that they managed to negotiate that down to was 5 percent, and they got it down to 40 percent in community law, retaining 60 percent, but he also made this point: he said, \u201CThe question of the true cost\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aebc733357a2457bb0a26cbbfce09030\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: I woke up and she was back on the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022265d60d9705c47ffb07cd662a50f6a17\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m very much on the bill, and I\u2019m quoting Hansard into Hansard about an issue that is very relevant to the bill. This is so good. He said, \u201CThe question of the true cost of the service has never actually been resolved to anyone\u2019s satisfaction. This is the service that the banks provide in setting up and maintaining those accounts. I am moving to amend the proportion the banks would now retain from 40\u00A0percent to 30 percent. The concern about that proportion is that if we get it wrong, the banks may cease to provide the service.\u201D He was acknowledging that it couldn\u2019t be too low, that it shouldn\u2019t be too high, and that even at that stage, they hadn\u2019t truly analysed what that appropriate amount was. I do think that that\u2019s a matter for this House to consider at some stage, because what we know is that, at the moment, there isn\u2019t sufficient free legal advice and certainly not free legal representation for people who need it, so it\u2019s something we should look at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI did want to acknowledge one more time Te Ara Ture, which is also a community law centre initiative trying to help address that gap where pro bono lawyers assist community members with legal issues. An interesting fact from last term was that Chris Bishop had a member\u2019s bill that attempted to allow lawyers to provide free legal services without necessarily that funnel, if you like. Our view was very firmly that community law plays a very important role in terms of directing that capacity to precisely where it\u2019s needed. The other interesting service that they started was the legal information bot, where people could type in questions and have those answered, which is fantastic, especially for young people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EMany people have been acknowledged today, and names dropped and such. I did want to mention one more in closing, Piers Davies, who\u2019s been a significant part of the community law movement and who in one week\u2019s time will step down from the YouthLaw board. He told me about 10 years ago that he was going to step down, and he\u2019s really pushed and done everything possible to ensure access to justice, but especially for young people, so to all our heroes in community law, but today, especially to Piers Davies, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022 data-id=\u002224e3b5f001a54b378dc9c00300fb9ed1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224e3b5f001a54b378dc9c00300fb9ed1\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, happy Tuesday! Where else would you want to be on a Tuesday in urgency, Madam Speaker? Isn\u2019t that great? I wish to wake the House up after that 10 minutes of nothing. This will be refreshing. Extraordinary urgency? Well, that sounds exciting, so I say to the member Vanushi Walters, \u201CBring it on!\u201D This bill, the Legal Services (Distribution of Special Fund) Amendment Bill, is a great piece of legislation, great for our community law, and therefore I am going to commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022 data-id=\u0022556cfeb7add04f5a92434c3d9d3724f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022556cfeb7add04f5a92434c3d9d3724f6\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, for this opportunity to speak on the Legal Services (Distribution of Special Fund) Amendment Bill. This is not a bill that I\u2019ve participated in before now, so it has been interesting to hear the debate on this third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003EOf course, I was a lawyer for one part of my life and was very much involved with the ins and outs of the trust fund. As David Seymour said before, this is a very important function that law firms hold, because, of course, if you are doing a conveyancing or a much bigger transaction and your lawyers hold your funds for you, if the lawyers do something bad, that\u2019s going to end badly. That may have happened in the past, so one of the things that we\u2019ve been doing in New Zealand for a long time is using some of the money that\u2019s made from those funds, as David Seymour said, to fund community law. We know, also, that community law centres are great organisations that help people in need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003EI want to pause on that for a moment, because now I am not a lawyer and I am a constituent MP. The phenomenal work that the Dunedin Community Law Centre does is just so helpful to so many people, and I want to commend all of them for the work that they do. Be it on immigration cases or when people are having civil disputes and need a little bit of help, community law is there for them, so it\u2019s very important for many of our citizens that community law is able to operate as effectively and as helpfully as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also the member for a university town, which, of course, has law students, and many of them volunteer at community law centres, or they certainly did in the past when I was a younger lawyer and would help at Dunedin Community Law Centre. It turned out that somebody who\u2019d studied a lot of trade regulation and international environmental law and the Resource Management Act wasn\u2019t that helpful! Luckily, most of my colleagues had done things like family law and more property law papers, and they were much more helpful than I ever was. I do want to make that shout-out to community law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard from the various speeches that the drafting of the current law could be read to be very narrow and not include costs such as the lease for the premises that, of course, these community law organisations have to operate out of. Everyone is agreed that it\u2019s good to fix it. It says in the bill: \u201CWhere the Special Fund cannot be used to meet costs, Crown funding is required instead.\u201D Noting that I haven\u2019t been part of this bill, that does look, to me, like this is a move away from Crown funding for any community law functions and that this is another way to help the Government\u2019s books by, really, more levies. We\u2019ve seen that with the waste levy for instance: that it gets used for a whole lot of different things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003EThat is a negative, but we\u2019re trying to focus on the positives here, because, as the member before me, Tom Rutherford, said, it\u2019s Tuesday night in Parliament\u2019s time and Friday evening in other people\u2019s time. I wanted to pick up, though, on some other points that were made in the discussion of this bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228da82b0ad1de4c42acfac154345f62cd\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Tell us about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022676b5e0701064911abefa4247b537f1e\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: David Seymour is asking me to tell him about it, and I\u2019ll tell him about his speech. He said something along the lines of, \u201CIf the Opposition speeches were clearer or shorter, then perhaps the Government would put up more agreeable bills.\u201D We are seeming to be in agreement tonight, so I\u2019m wondering if that is a promise that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266637f7fa7004cfda176830c801061ac\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Unfortunately, the member hasn\u2019t qualified.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d5c884653884f35bb9b665f1fc379c6\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: The member hasn\u2019t qualified for being unclear or clear?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d3931ecdada43e3bf92763d45f8e75c\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: She could improve her average performance if she sat down before time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f423b111dc9445c797cadc5c4eebb934\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m wondering about this statement that David Seymour has been making about the Opposition speeches and if there is some sort of promise here that, rather than taking us into urgency time and time again and looking at bills in all stages, this Government will commit to the sorts of bills that all members of this House can agree on. I\u2019m hoping that that is what he is saying. I can\u2019t quite hear him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022311eba0f075e448993bb59225ea956bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221237e0e0a59d4cbe956a48e10e42a798\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: No, of course it\u2019s not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c2f8fa83eff470f94581858e44e7c32\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I\u2019m hearing that it\u2019s not what he\u2019s saying. Well, a challenge to you, Mr Seymour\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022aede4bdf0a774789bab470f955a4cce0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aede4bdf0a774789bab470f955a4cce0\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired because that is the end of the speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002245a91c82858d44fda0df4854f18cb4a9\u0022 data-id=\u0022028cca2cd78f4a0692ba1b93ca380d8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002245a91c82858d44fda0df4854f18cb4a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022028cca2cd78f4a0692ba1b93ca380d8b\u0022\u003EGREG FLEMING (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, tuatahi e mihi ana ki te mema o te P\u0101ti K\u0101k\u0101riki m\u014D t\u0101na k\u014Drero i te reo taketake m\u014D te w\u0101 tuatahi. E mihi ana ki a ia. Ka rere te reo o te whenua i t\u0113nei Whare, ka piki te ora. Ahakoa ko t\u0113nei te kupu hou m\u014D m\u0101tou i t\u0113nei p\u014D: \u201Cwhakaupa\u201D.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002245a91c82858d44fda0df4854f18cb4a9\u0022\u003E[Madam Speaker, first I would like to acknowledge the member of the Green Party for her speech in the indigenous language for the first time. I congratulate her. When the language of the land flows in this House, we feel better. Despite that, this is the new vocabulary for us tonight: \u201Cprolong\u201D.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002245a91c82858d44fda0df4854f18cb4a9\u0022\u003E\u201CWhakaupa\u201D means \u201Cto delay, prolong, or protract\u201D, and I shall do none of that. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022 data-id=\u00220864559d42394fd19217ecf3da031823\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220864559d42394fd19217ecf3da031823\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to be able to take a slightly longer call\u2014a full call; I only had a part-call in the last reading. Community law is a very interesting subject matter, and I did touch on some of my experience in community law. I volunteered there. I was also on the management committee of the Wellington Community Law Centre before the community law centres were merged into a national body, which is a change of structure. I did go back to volunteer as a lawyer in community law once that structure was in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EThe issue, really, is that this is an extremely special and important part of the way that we provide legal services and legal advice to the community. I think it\u2019s the people who work in community law, like my colleague Vanushi Walters, who was heckled somewhat during her speech\u2014I think we need to acknowledge that Vanushi Walters studied at Oxford University and is a qualified lawyer, and instead of going to earn the big bucks at one of the major firms, she ran YouthLaw for many, many years in community law centres and has done more pro bono work than, I think, probably anyone in this House who\u2019s legally qualified. She has made a massive contribution to community law and also to the spirit of free legal services and access to justice. I just wanted to acknowledge that, Vanushi, because you are an exceptional lawyer and an exceptional citizen in the sense of your commitment towards access to justice. It\u2019s important for us to remember that and also your long experience with community law and your contribution there, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EI do agree with some of the speakers on the other side who acknowledge the way that community law is funded. It is, as we\u2019ve traversed, a very interesting funding mechanism, where all of the very, very wealthy trust accounts\u2014I don\u2019t know whether an account can be wealthy, but anyway, they usually have a lot of money in them. That\u2019s because lawyers hold money on trust for a number of different important transactions, and that\u2019s to ensure that they get paid on time. It\u2019s also to ensure that they\u2019re safe, and it\u2019s to uphold different contractual agreements. For whatever reason, sometimes your personal money can be held by your lawyer in their trust account, and there are lots of rules associated with running a trust account. As qualified lawyers, anyone who\u2019s ever gone through that process, there\u2019s a lot of training and education that you have to go through in order to be able to legally manage one of those in a responsible way. These are significant functions of the way that our legal services are provided.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EOne of the ways that the legal community and, in fact, Governments of the past and successive Governments have decided to utilise the function of that is through allowing the interest that accrues on those trust accounts, rather than just being kept by the bank\u2014although there is a percentage which is kept by the bank, and this has been mentioned a few times, and I\u2019ll just park that there for now while I finish explaining how the trust account works\u2014that money then, or 60 percent of that interest, goes to this community law funding. We\u2019ve got 24 community law centres throughout New Zealand. I visit a few of them, certainly not all of them, but I do know\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022311eba0f075e448993bb59225ea956bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246e70c118b794897a57d1aa796ca305d\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Wairarapa?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274fff379394d456fbdb1b17cfee1ad84\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: I haven\u2019t been to the one in Wairarapa, but I\u2019d love to attend the one in Wairarapa. I think all of them that I have visited have been incredible services, and I mentioned it very quickly in one of the contributions that I made, but I think it\u2019s worth saying again: members of this House will know how useful community law centres are because of the number of times they refer their constituents to those services. It could be that they refer them to attend and see a lawyer, or it could be that they refer to their very excellent community law guide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EBefore there was a plethora of legal information on the internet, this was, really, the one free area that you could find very, very good, solid legal advice. This community law guide is kept in most public libraries, I think, still today. It\u2019s usually distributed for free and updated, and it\u2019s a hugely important resource that community law provides and has done for many, many years. That is an example of something that community law does. I think that would fall within the current definition without this bill, and the reason I say that is that, if you look at the Legal Services Act, the definition of legal services actually covers education. I think that particular area would probably be fine without this change, and that\u2019s reassuring, because that has been something that has been funded for a very long period of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EI think community law could do more, and I think the frustration with this bill as it\u2019s gone through the House is not that there is huge disagreement on what this bill does but that there is disagreement as to whether it\u2019s necessary or whether it\u2019s the best use of Parliament\u2019s time or whether, in fact, the due diligence has been done to ensure that previous spending of community law centres has been for the right cause. I think the frustration has been that, actually, the potential for our community law\u2014and when we look at the funding, which is the subject of this bill, this doesn\u2019t fundamentally change the percentage of interest that goes to community law. This could have been something that could have been looked at in this bill. I know that\u2019s a policy area perhaps for the Government or an incoming Government to look at, but certainly I think there\u2019s more that community law could do and more that they could provide. I think there\u2019s an appetite for that. I think there\u2019s also a need for that, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EMy own experience of working in community law was that, a lot of the time that people would come in and seek legal advice, often they were wanting common-sense advice, and to be that first person there when they come through the door and have a problem and to be able just to point them in the right direction is something that you can do as a lawyer. You don\u2019t necessarily have to be a lawyer, and that is why I think it\u2019s great that, within the suite of legislation that this bill is a part of, we allow law students to work at community law centres, and it forms a part of their training as well. I\u2019ll use one example from my time providing advice in this particular type of circumstance. I had a woman come and see me. She said to me, \u201CI\u2019ve been sacked.\u201D I talked to her about it, and she wasn\u2019t going to go into work the next day because she was so upset about having lost her job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EWhen I went through it with her, I found out she hadn\u2019t actually been dismissed and that there was every indication that her employer was expecting her at work the next day. It had just been a miscommunication around something that she had done at work that, she\u2019d been told, was wrong, but she\u2019d taken it entirely the wrong way. I think that shows the value of being able to access that type of advice. She was feeling incredibly vulnerable. If she hadn\u2019t turned up to work the next day, it\u2019s very likely that maybe she would have ended up losing her job, but just going through \u201CWhat\u2019s happened? What documentation have you received? This doesn\u2019t look like a dismissal to me. It looks like you\u2019ve just had a performance issue raised with you.\u201D was enough for her to feel much better and, within a very short period of time, go back. I didn\u2019t see her again, but I assume, hopefully, she was able to go back to work. These types of services can provide very meaningful help and advice for people when they access them, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EIn relation to this bill, our general view is that we\u2019re supportive of it. We wish it would go further in order to fully bolster and support community law. We think there\u2019s probably ways that it could do that. We\u2019re not 100 percent around the need for it, just due to the fact that it\u2019s quite a difficult concept to think of how legal services would be able to be provided without all of these other utilities, as some other speakers have talked about, in terms of the rent for the premises, the other items that you need in order to provide advice\u2014the photocopiers. These things, as I understand, have been paid for by community law centres under this agreement. This bill probably will clarify that, so one thing I can say about this bill is that it makes it clear that the services that have been provided to date are very well within the law due to this clarification. It could have gone further, and there could have been other things that we focused on too. It\u2019s reassuring to know that community law centres also support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002252fb8bf488eb4d8bb810d717a25a64a9\u0022\u003EI thank the Government, really, for allowing us to discuss the important work that community law centres do, and I would encourage them to think about the really amazing contribution that it makes to the community and what we collectively as a Parliament can do to support that important work moving forward. I think it helps not only us as parliamentarians in our job, it helps the members of the public who access those services. There could be even more benefit if we were to truly fund and support community law within New Zealand. I do appreciate the opportunity to speak on this bill, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc18fca1517544d48a85a448eabd4308\u0022 data-id=\u00229ab69dc080014f5ebb287af9fa90220f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc18fca1517544d48a85a448eabd4308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ab69dc080014f5ebb287af9fa90220f\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to be, technically, the last person to contribute on this bill. Speaking of technicality, I think it\u2019s very important to clarify, because there\u2019s been some interesting opinions, from the other side, that the current law is unclear with respect to whether the special fund can cover indirect costs. What we\u2019re doing here is clarifying this discrepancy. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e52ad3bf272d4fa19e42c336905add6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e52ad3bf272d4fa19e42c336905add6f\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022571237f834134aeb85a4cf19188a5d07\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Scott Willis\u2014you were very quick off the mark that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227632da1e96c41d6a420e53c98213264\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker; it is very much appreciated. It\u2019s my pleasure to be able to take the last call on this bill tonight, and certainly nice to have the little bit of angst from opposite as well, or the gaslighting that we typically get, because it does indicate that I think the members opposite are feeling a little bit angsty. They want something else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EWe want to be here. We appreciate this opportunity\u2014[Interruption] We certainly appreciate this opportunity\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b22cd39a288143b592f4f81f339a8274\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I can\u2019t actually hear Mr Willis. I don\u2019t know if he\u2019s speaking to the bill or not because I can\u2019t hear him. We\u2019ll have some quiet so I can hear what he\u2019s saying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281a74fb809c04763bec917243f164d09\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker\u2014because politics does not have to be adversarial. [Interruption] This bill, as minor as it is, is something that we are all agreeing on\u2014we\u2019re agreeing on. Really, the amount of heckling I\u2019m getting for agreeing to a bill is quite surprising, but not so surprising, really, when we consider the nature of the Government on the other side because we do have a Government that is pushing and has desired to push such a minor bill through urgency. Sir Geoffrey Palmer has called the extreme use of urgency \u201Ca shambles\u201D\u2014a shambles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard the value of community law. We\u2019ve heard from Rachel Brooking\u2014I did not know that Rachel had volunteered in the fantastic Dunedin Community Law Centre, but I do know that this is a great place for people to contribute. We\u2019ve heard about the need to think about how to best resource community law and this bill is doing a little bit there, but really not very much. I\u2019m really in support of the Hon Dr Duncan Webb, Vanushi Walters, and Camilla Belich that we look at a review of how that funding works in the future, because this bill isn\u2019t really going anywhere near far enough and it\u2019s not doing anything very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EThose are things that we think are valuable and we shouldn\u2019t just stop here. Given we\u2019ve got this sense of bonhomie, when we\u2019re all getting on, why don\u2019t we look for other places where we can actually make some progress? Why don\u2019t we look for some other places where we can actually make some progress because the bitchiness might come with fatigue, but it is not necessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s good to hear that we\u2019ve got students involved. One of the things that I\u2019ve particularly enjoyed with community law, or understanding in community law, is the many kaupapa community law services designed by M\u0101ori for M\u0101ori. They are really important to give M\u0101ori decent legal advice to help fight the Crown on land and Te Tiriti issues, for example. Particularly important at this juncture of our Parliament\u2014we certainly need to give assistance to people who are concerned if Te Tiriti rights are being ignored. This is really important\u2014there are a whole lot of things that are happening in community law that we don\u2019t necessarily see, but it\u2019s the type of thing that really gives confidence to people to be able to take their concerns to somewhere they can get some professional advice, and it doesn\u2019t cost the earth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EThis bill is a minor bill, and we should be mindful that we don\u2019t waste Parliament\u2019s time on minor bills. However, given the opportunity to speak on bills while we have the luxury of being in Parliament\u2014and we are grateful to the Government for keeping us here\u2014we want to make sure that this bill moves forward but we want to also make sure that there\u2019s not the use of urgency for little purpose. That is our equal concern because we have seen, from this Government, a shambles of process which really limits Parliament\u2019s ability\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002222cc1ba5ddc8405d9c416b9c79637e3d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222cc1ba5ddc8405d9c416b9c79637e3d\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired. The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e1c649bac164629974b623cd6299757\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Waste of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290306631769b4eb5ae7aedf4df8e3ec2\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Who spoke during voting? Don\u2019t do that again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022421570e80e2942288f1cfa058273f1a3\u0022\u003EJudicature (Timeliness) Legislation Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022594205391fa549c2aa68e4db279dd758\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u00225813048779aa40ff89e2e1436b942832\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225813048779aa40ff89e2e1436b942832\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Judicature (Timeliness) Legislation Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c4858758374469a89023ce0aeaded30\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative\u2014[Interruption] Quiet. That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed44d99b7b1843b8809079828e697538\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Judicature (Timeliness) Legislation Amendment Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EI would like to begin by acknowledging the Justice Committee for their examination of this bill. My appreciation also goes to the submitters who took the time to participate in the select committee process and for their contributions. This Government is committed to reducing delays in the courts system. We are very conscious of the fact that many New Zealanders are waiting too long to achieve justice and get closure through the courts. That is why this bill is so important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EThe amendments in the bill are necessary to support the efficient, fair, and timely resolution of court proceedings for all court parties and participants. The bill increases the cap on the number of High Court judges, enabling two additional judges to be appointed. More judges will help the courts better manage the growing workload.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EOne thing that has been heard through the select committee process, and other comments on the bill, is that the increase of two additional judges may not be enough to meet the demand for judicial resource. The Minister of Justice has, therefore, introduced an Amendment Paper to be considered at the committee of the whole House stage, which will enable the appointment of a further three judges. This will bring the total of potential new judges to five so that our senior courts can more effectively manage the workload.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EThe court system is complex, and more judges alone cannot address the timeliness challenges. That is why this bill also improves various court processes so the courts can run more efficiently. The bill makes changes to improve pre-trial case management so there is less duplication, it ensures appeals are heard by the most appropriate court, and it gives judges better tools to manage proceedings that plainly abuse the process of the courts. It also allows coroners to close certain inquiries when it is no longer appropriate to conduct these.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EThe Justice Committee has made recommendations that clarify and refine the bill. This includes changing the commencement date to 1 February 2026, enabling an order that deals with plainly abusive proceedings to be made on the papers, and ensuring consistency across the Coroners Act. I support these recommendations, which will help improve efficiency in the courts. Justice delayed is justice denied, and this Judicature (Timeliness) Legislation Amendment Bill goes some way to addressing this. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00225380fd4e15fa403088edc6132f66bf69\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225380fd4e15fa403088edc6132f66bf69\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00224e2fa80d0b8d478b830478039a41b1e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e2fa80d0b8d478b830478039a41b1e4\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014\u014Ch\u0101riu):\u003C/span\u003E There are a couple of truisms in the justice system. One of them is that you can\u2019t hide the bodies, and the other is that whatever else you try and do with crime statistics, look at what happens in the courts, because that also tells you the truest story. When I look at this bill, there are two things I look at. Yes, we do need some more High Court judges. There\u2019s no doubt about it. We certainly agree with that. But you\u2019ve actually got to look at why we need more judges. Yes, we need to speed up things, but, actually, have a look at the cases that are going before the court where the increase is. The increase is actually murder, attempted murder, and manslaughter, which are category 4 offences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003ENow, we often hear\u2014and every Government\u2019s guilty of this\u2014the Government talking about how it\u2019s great we are doing well on crime. Often, it will involve a different way of looking at crime statistics, and they will always be presented in a manner which makes the presenter look best. I always remember visiting New York at the time of all the reforms over there, the Bratton reforms, and that was when, all of a sudden, each city looked at what New York had achieved, and they had a thing called CompStat, and it was where they actually started counting the crimes. They made each precinct actually responsible for the crime that happened in their precinct. This caught on right around the States, and it exposed a few things. One of them, Philadelphia, was the city that had these wonderful results\u2014\u201CBoy, hadn\u2019t crime gone down?\u201D\u2014and in every category, it looked like they had basically solved the problem for ever of crime, except for the murders, because they couldn\u2019t hide the bodies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why we have a look at the statistics. We have a look at what\u2019s happening in our courts, which, of course, is what this bill is about. Rightfully, every speaker should be concentrating on the bill. I\u2019ll promise you, Madam Speaker, that\u2019s exactly what I will be doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e9a593ad1e44ed19b9b7ad9d99113a8\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s exactly right, Mr O\u2019Connor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295fe1cb6b82c40c8a82dfedcb19ef54e\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s why this is a very good idea that we actually do increase the number of judges. How high? I\u2019ve actually got a tabled amendment. It\u2019s interesting that here we are again. Many of our speakers tonight have spoken that we are very, very late on a Tuesday night, speaking about this. We actually wonder why we have to come back here to increase\u2014in one of the provisions of this bill\u2014the number of judges by two. I have a tabled amendment that says, \u201CLet\u2019s have a range of judges so that, as crime goes up and down and as the number of bodies perhaps go up and down, we can actually have some flexibility in the system.\u201D Of course, it being a second reading, I won\u2019t spend too much time on that tabled amendment. I look forward to about, perhaps, 11.30 tonight when we\u2019re in the committee of the whole House on this bill. It will be a shame for anyone to be wasting some good sleeping time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EThis comes to the second part of this bill, in particular, where we actually talk about the cases. There\u2019s been some sort of\u2014I won\u2019t say playing with statistics\u2014obfuscation around the statistics. But one thing that is clear is that the cases that are coming to court are actually taking longer to resolve. They\u2019re more serious. You can put that down to something. I spent some considerable time as a detective. In fact, I trained detectives. I look, now, at the sort of evidence that comes before trials compared to, perhaps, when I was training detectives. I look at, I suppose, the complications. Things like DNA weren\u2019t available. Cellphones weren\u2019t available. CCTV wasn\u2019t available. These are all the things now that, if you go and sit through any serious trial\u2014certainly any serious criminal trial\u2014you\u2019ll very quickly see that that\u2019s where the first of the evidence is. For any detective and any police officer going to a crime scene, the first thing they do is look for a phone. The first thing they do is look for CCTV. The first thing they do is look for DNA. As you can imagine, these are a little more complicated than things like fingerprints, a little more complicated even than perhaps getting a confession or other ways and means of taking cases before the court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EYou\u2019ve got this combination where you\u2019ve got more serious crimes, more, as I say, murder, attempted murder, and manslaughter category of offences going through. They\u2019re all taking that much longer. Again, these are the things that are putting considerable pressure on the criminal justice system, and, very sensibly, this will attempt to resolve some of those issues. Again, it\u2019s not going to, because the other thing you do need, of course, are courtrooms. None of these things by themselves will work, because the bottleneck in the criminal justice system is almost invariably the courts. Periodically, you\u2019ll see that police, for various reasons, will be taking action on any particular sort of crime, and it might be several months down the track, but the bottleneck will occur when they all need to go through the criminal justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EAn attempt was actually made to solve that. In fact, the National Government in 2012 introduced a system called tag and release. It was, actually, quite an interesting system where they actually had a strategy of reducing the entries into the criminal justice system by 19\u00A0percent in a year. Well, that just meant that the bottleneck was moved from the courts back to the police station, so as people were arrested, they would come through, and they would be tagged and released, pre-charged, and warned, and they would never be in the system again. There would be very little paperwork involved, and they\u2019d be back out to do their deeds again. It worked quite well for about two or three years until, very quickly, the offenders cottoned on to the fact that it was a risk-free occupation to go and play up on a Saturday night down in the local city centre, because, at worst, it might cost you a couple of hours sitting in the watch house or sitting in a cell. You\u2019ll be very quickly back out. There\u2019ll be no court appearance in the number one court on Monday or Tuesday morning, and so you very quickly realise it was consequence free.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EWhen we introduce any new strategy, it\u2019s almost invariably about three or four years down the track before you really do understand the impact of it. We\u2019re in sugar-hit country; we\u2019re in politics, so, often, we\u2019re all looking for some new strategy that is going to solve everything from the common cold to AIDS, and we\u2019ll stand on every mountaintop and talk about it. Any of these new strategies that come in\u2014again, I\u2019m looking at strategies like this that we\u2019re talking about in the bill here, Madam Speaker, which you, rightfully, are looking at me to make sure that I am referring back to the bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb8e44afed86461bb70a2a8224453b10\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You haven\u2019t strayed too far.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275d419635b8e4f5f916c8fd60cb02ddf\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m just making sure that you didn\u2019t feel any need to actually point me back to the bill there, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226011ac84b7eb4334bac09c522d6db1f0\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, you stayed on tag and release for a while, so I knew you were on the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293213be440a84fe7ae25ffeeb8eca9ae\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I know what an extremely difficult job it is to sit to where you are, Madam Speaker. You\u2019re doing a fine job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003ESo, anyway, coming back, I may have just lost my train of thought there as I went through that. I\u2019ll just moved through this\u2014I do notice the time has moved on a little. Another important part of this provision, too, relates to the coroner\u2019s court.. Now, this is also something that very much relates to what I was talking about before, because the coroner\u2019s court traditionally is that which reports last in the whole process. Again, typically when there\u2019s a homicide, it will be the job of the detective who\u2019s in charge of the body\u2014one of their jobs\u2014to go along and open the inquest. That will then carry on through the trials, and way, way down the track, finally, it will be closed by the coroner. The best thing you can ever do is get a certificate as to cause a death, which means that the coroner doesn\u2019t need to be involved. Often these deaths do go into the system, and having an off-ramp for the coroner, where new evidence becomes available, that precludes the need for what is often a very expensive and complicated process of having a coroner or having an inquest. Again, it\u2019s quite a sensible provision. It\u2019s hard to see where it would be used. The initial thought would be that, perhaps, it\u2019s used for where it becomes obvious that there may be a self-inflicted death. That\u2019s actually not the case. Self-inflicted is one of the exclusions to this. Self-inflicted deaths will always go through the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003ESo I realise that there will be other opportunities, later on tonight during the committee of the whole House, to talk about some of these issues. Again, we won\u2019t know for three or four years down the track whether some of these things have worked, because it is a grindingly slow system, the justice system. It does get there at the end, but really evaluating the success of things like this is usually where, say, a five-year review would be a good idea. We\u2019re commending this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca70eb01a3114751ad487f2a184e64af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca70eb01a3114751ad487f2a184e64af\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I thank the previous speaker because, again, I think that the previous speaker, Greg O\u2019Connor, is absolutely spot on when talking about the fact that we seem to be in this sort of sugar rush in the sense that we keep on chasing what is the short term as opposed to seeing some of the longer-term impacts that we have on some of these matters. But in terms of the Judicature (Timeliness) Legislation Amendment Bill, the Green Party does support this bill because it does make some good progress in that sense, towards both timeliness and also access to justice, and also in terms of addressing some of the issues within our court system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI want to first just address probably one of the more significant sections of this bill, which is the increase in the number of High Court judges from 55 to 57. But I think it\u2019s also really important to acknowledge as well the Minister of Justice\u2019s Amendment Paper 443, which further increases that number, from 57 to 60, and I\u2019m sure that this is something that we\u2019ll be discussing in the upcoming committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EWith that being the first major section of the adjustment made in this bill when it comes to the Senior Courts Act 2016, the other significant part in the other half of this bill is the changes to the Senior Courts Act, which are around plainly abusive civil proceedings. This is the sort of functioning that we\u2019ve seen with a few of these bills coming through the House. It\u2019s from a court perspective on, for example, vexatious litigants, etc., and this is very similar to that in the sense that the registrar is able to inform or is able to refer the plainly abusive civil proceeding to the judge, and the judge will have the power to make orders and give directions in respect of plainly abusive civil proceedings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThis is something that the Justice Committee did flag to officials on this bill, mainly because of the fact that it is unclear what the plainly abusive civil proceedings would entail, and then whether that is going to inadvertently prevent or deprive areas for some of the genuine issues that we\u2019re seeing, or for people who are scarred\u2014for example, who are either from disabled communities or who are neurodivergent, who may simply not understand some of the nuances in terms of vexatious litigation. However, I think that overall, during the select committee stage, this was something that was discussed, and additions were added into it as a sort of safeguard, and I wanted this to be mentioned. That is an area, which is the new section 164B(2A) in clause 7, which also covers some of these in terms of what judges have to record and how judges will be able to make some of those rulings. That\u2019s the first major part of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EActually, before I move on to the second half of the bill, regarding the Criminal Procedure Act and the Coroners Act, it\u2019s also important to mention some of the submissions process as a part of this. In terms of the select committee process, we could see that there were not as many submissions as we thought for a bill that increased the number of judges, which does have, I guess, a budgetary implication. Again, this bill was one of the bills that was brought to the House under urgency in May, and we\u2019re getting around to this bill now, as well. So\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227912fc5e821947c69005fea320523d37\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: A bit of a backlog. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa34c3d2ad044076afbdef93588d6ac7\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: There is a backlog of bills, yeah. In this case, in terms of the select committee process, there were 28 submitters on this, with wide-ranging opinions, and there were broader things, as well. I think, in general, there were concerns raised by some around whether this is prioritising timeliness over fairness and how that was going to be addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI do think that as we are starting to see an increased number of High Court judges, particularly when High Court judges are also increasingly more diverse\u2014actually, in general, our senior court judges are becoming more diverse. In saying that, I would like to bring it to the House\u2019s attention that although in the latest census, we\u2019re seeing that there are 19.2 percent of the people here in Aotearoa New Zealand are people of colour migrants or colour, the number of High Court judges, or judges in general\u2014not simply High Court judges, but the number of judges\u2014who are, for example, of Asian descent is less than 4 percent. The number of High Court judges of Asian descent\u2014which is the District Court and above\u2014currently, I think, sits at one. So, despite the fact that we have this enormously diverse population, our higher court judge appointment processes and our higher court judge demographic hasn\u2019t necessarily reflected that or kept up with the changes in our demographics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s also important to mention that one of the things that is recommended in terms of the fact that we are looking at increasing the number of High Court judges is also to do with the simple fact that as the population is increasing, the number of cases is going to be increased and a number of cases are going to be more complex, not necessarily in the sense that there are more complex laws, but, again\u2014like I mentioned before\u2014the nature of the cases will be more complex. One of the things which we are, unfortunately, seeing is a reduction in funding around the section 27 reports, which is incredibly crucial when it comes to the timeliness of our judicial process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EEspecially, like I said before, when the judges themselves do not necessarily have the same lived experience or share the same experience as those who are in front of the court, it does cause certain delays if there isn\u2019t a robust cultural report or process. I do draw the House\u2019s attention to some of the latest issues and the latest work that\u2019s been done by, particularly, Chinese lawyers around contractual agreements within Chinese communities, which has been hugely complex and has also meant that cases become more complex, the rulings become more complex, and there are more reasons, then, for people to appeal to a higher court. I think that for something like that, in terms of whether we want to address judicial timeliness, we should also really be looking at whether some of those matters meant that we are seeing more appeals happening further and further, higher up into not just simply the High Court but also the Court of Appeal, as well as the Supreme Court. All of that tied together is one of the themes that did come through in terms of the submitters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThe other thing that did come through in terms of the submitters\u2014and this is, again, similar to what I mentioned in the second reading of the previous bill on the Legal Services (Distribution of Special Funds) Amendment Bill, as well\u2014was that there is this general undertone of concern that people have in terms of equity for M\u0101ori within the justice system. I think that this is also a feature that we see here within this particular bill. Again, although that particular feature may be embodied as part of the timeliness of the court system that we\u2019re hoping to see going forward, the specificity of how that provides equity may not have been covered or addressed in this bill. That\u2019s unfortunate, but it\u2019s also understandable, and we\u2019re hoping that the Government is able to bring something that would be able to allay some of those concerns that the community have in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EMoving on to the second part, Part 2 of this bill, it is also an equally important section, and it actually comes out from beyond, I guess, the court system, but it is also involved within it, and part of that is around the Criminal Procedure Act 2011. I want to start by addressing some of that in terms of the Criminal Procedure Act 2011, and for this particular part, one of the things that is most important is the pre-trial processes if the defendant is being charged in respect of two or more offences in different District Court offices, and how the processes will be managed for that. We will have some other questions on this during the committee stage as well, because I think this is really important, and one of the things that we did discuss was how that\u2019s going to be coordinated and managed between different District Courts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThere is also the other one that I mentioned before, which is how the Court of Appeal judges may remit first appeals to the High Court. This, again, comes back to what I mentioned before, which is that cases are becoming increasingly complex. We do allow people the right of appeal, and it is about how that process is going, as we see, further and further into the Court of Appeal and also the Supreme Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EFinally, we\u2019re seeing an amendment to the Coroners Act 2006\u2014who knew that I might be running out of time? I think that the most concerning part of this\u2014and it may be discussed a little bit further\u2014is the retrospective element of this. For example, as of 30\u00A0June, there are 3,240 active coronial inquiries, and so how is that going to be managed as part of this? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThe Green Party does support this bill. We do have some amendments on this that we\u2019ll want to seek guidance on, but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e677d2d85e7f487a86ffbc999fc21ebb\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Surprise, surprise! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cb28c34ff9147fd825e11d6fd888f88\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014they will wait until the committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f225b9990b9149c7be81abbd49ab75c8\u0022 data-id=\u0022312a115593134ee19c990e3417d092b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f225b9990b9149c7be81abbd49ab75c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022312a115593134ee19c990e3417d092b6\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of the ACT Party in support of the Judicature (Timeliness) Legislation Amendment Bill. The ACT Party does love efficiency, and we are backing this bill because it will bring efficiency that can be made across the judicial system. This bill will improve timeliness in the judicial system by appointing more judges, giving courts better tools, reducing duplication, and supporting our coroners. For those reasons, I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226327e49d349443e693f980fcd245b385\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9a1cb37be434e80827357be05530531\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226327e49d349443e693f980fcd245b385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9a1cb37be434e80827357be05530531\u0022\u003EJAMIE ARBUCKLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to support the Judicature (Timeliness) Legislation Amendment Bill. It\u2019s probably one of those bills, actually, where if we could change the title, it would be quite good for some of the members. But anyway, we\u2019ve got past that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226327e49d349443e693f980fcd245b385\u0022\u003EThe major parts of this bill are changing the number of High Court judges from 55 to 57\u2014a lot of that is about the complexity around cases now and, also, the obvious thing around population growth of New Zealand\u2014striking out plainly abusive proceedings on the papers\u2014that just makes sense; it\u2019s no different from us striking out submissions when we get abusive language\u2014streamlining criminal pre-trial processes, so if you\u2019ve got a number of different trials or cases across the country, putting them all into one court or one place just makes sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226327e49d349443e693f980fcd245b385\u0022\u003EWhat I do want to highlight is the coroners being able to close inquiries. That was something that was quite debated within the process of the submissions through the select committee process. Looking back retrospectively at something is, often, something that we don\u2019t change or allow to be changed. But we\u2019ve got over 3,200 cases sitting there; it only makes sense if we can give closure to families with some of those cases that have been sitting there for nearly up to three years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226327e49d349443e693f980fcd245b385\u0022\u003EOn that, I look forward to the committee of the whole House. I commend this to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022 data-id=\u00221f5a7efa60a94a66b97bd0e514ed5e1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f5a7efa60a94a66b97bd0e514ed5e1f\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E E t\u016B ana ahau ki te tautoko i t\u0113nei pire, engari e k\u014Drero ahau i te reo P\u0101keh\u0101 m\u014D t\u0113nei pire.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003E[I stand to support this bill, but I will speak on this bill in English.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EI rise to support the Judicature\u2014I\u2019ve never seen that word before in my life\u2014(Timeliness) Legislation Amendment Bill. We agreed to support this bill to select committee. We had some parts about the bill that we wanted to explore around the vexatious litigation element because we didn\u2019t want there to be any provisions that dismissed claims in the court that might have been legitimate but complex, and we wanted to make sure that everybody has that access to justice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EWe supported it with reservations, but now that it\u2019s gone through that process and the select committee has happened, we are happy to support it through its second reading\u2014yeah, woo hoo! Our main concerns were around vexatious litigation within the High Court, and we felt that these safeguards against that kind of behaviour and conduct were already in the High Court rules. But we can see that there is some merit to transferring these to the Senior Courts Act, and we\u2019re pleased that standard discretion by judges apply. We\u2019re particularly pleased about this given the different bills that have come through this Parliament in this term which have had a significant impact on judicial discretion, which I\u2019ll talk about later on, if I have time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EThis bill, we hope, will address the backlogs that currently exist in our courts. We know that they are quite big. We know that according to the latest New Zealand Law Society report, there were over 140,000 court appearances that were delayed because of COVID-19. We\u2019ve mainly resolved a lot of those\u2014a lot of that backlog now\u2014but, still, there are delays. As everybody says\u2014and I wonder if people have said it today\u2014justice delayed is justice denied, which is a great saying that really encapsulates parts of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EObviously, the bill does more than amend the Senior Courts Act. It does some other things to other Acts, including the Criminal Procedure Act and the Coroners Act. Now, I\u2019m not going to talk about the Coroners Act because I don\u2019t know a lot about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a5bed9670fc4282b349afcb6167197d\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: The law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224db9cc95d1c642bdb2a38634bb8f3cbb\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the coronial inquiry. I\u2019ve amended a law, have you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e36d06730f7408fabf66de29d0feaea\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: I didn\u2019t say anything. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220632ace47eb4a99ba28bf0fdefc016f\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL\u003C/span\u003E: Good. Anyway, back to the bill. One thing that was also raised in the New Zealand Law Society report is that the cost of civil jurisdiction within the High Court has increased over time. They\u2019ve found that cases going through the High Court have become more complex and have taken a longer amount of time to litigate, and so allowing the number of judges to increase from 55 to 57 will really help with those lengthy cases that are really chewing up the High Court\u2019s time. We think that it\u2019s a good thing to have more and better judges within our justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EThe other thing is that delays in courts are really problematic because they really erode the public\u2019s sense of confidence and trust in the justice system, particularly for those individuals who have got cases before them that are really traumatic or personally affecting\u2014whether they\u2019re dealing with, say, a violent partner or someone who is abusing them or something like that. The fact that they have to wait so long due to backlogs is really not a good thing, because they\u2019re, obviously, waiting in fear. I think that whole part around public confidence and rebuilding that back from those hundred thousand - plus court appearance backlogs is a good thing\u2014for us to do everything we can to reduce that wait time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EAgain, we could get into judicial discretion in depth, and I\u2019m thinking in particular about the changes to the sentencing law reforms, which really erode judicial discretion when it comes to sentencing and things like sentencing discounts. Also, my colleague Lawrence made a really good point around section 27 reports and how that has also contributed to the lengthiness of the courts because the judges don\u2019t have a full picture of the person who stands before them. Ironically, removing section 27 reports has actually made everything more expensive, because now lawyers have to get psychological assessments and drug and alcohol assessments to give the judge a full picture of the person who stands before them. I could go on and on, but sadly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f60f2bde202d4aa5a7c92a5ae097a928\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: But your time is running out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221abac46b37d041398179c0d3531eded4\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I cannot. My time is done. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed6b33be3b9740ebbf4e9cd57f7e7d37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed6b33be3b9740ebbf4e9cd57f7e7d37\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. This is a Government that is tough on crime. In the past year, there have been 182 patches seized, 643 insignia items seized, 178 firearms seized, 856 charges for the prohibited display of gang insignia in public places, 255 finalised charges, and 188 convictions. In order to make sure the system works and that these can go through the courts, we need to make sure there are enough judges. Therefore, I commend this bill, this evening, to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u002205effaacebe746019598780d7fc0d7a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205effaacebe746019598780d7fc0d7a5\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. That is the kind of depth of analysis we expect from Carl Bates. It got us all the way there, didn\u2019t it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EThis bill is another \u201Caccess to justice\u201D bill. Sadly, it\u2019s a bill that\u2019s here because this Government seems to think that the only way to address problems in our society is incarceration. We\u2019re tough on the causes of crime on this side of the House, and we want to address the problems and we want to \u201Cfix up\u201D people rather than \u201Clock up\u201D people. That\u2019s the fundamental distinction between our two approaches to criminal justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228978f4836ce745c49203c579511c5a54\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: What about ram raids?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ba7c50541694800a9de3f8c2502ebf0\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Well, someone\u2014some young person over the other side\u2014talked about ram raids. The fact of the matter is that we addressed ram raids, and thank you to the National Government for doing at least one thing and picking up one of our programmes, which is the fast-track programme, wrapping around families with troublesome young people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003ERather than boot camps, which do nothing and which are an abject failure, the Fast Track programme, which was to address those young people doing things like ram raids, said, \u201CWhat are the problems in these families that are giving rise to this kind of behaviour?\u201D We looked at it, and it was problems like health, problems like drug and alcohol addiction, including in the family, problems like not having enough money or even enough food, or young people not going to school and not engaging with services. Thank you to the National Government for picking up and, in fact, expanding our Fast Track programme. The reduction in the number of young people offending is largely built on the back of the programme that we started, so thank you for that. It\u2019s one of the kinds of things that we could do that would not necessarily require an increase in the number of High Court judges.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not begrudging a High Court judge the amount they get paid. I can\u2019t remember the exact number, but it\u2019s hundreds of thousands of dollars. That\u2019s actually not the cost of a High Court judge, because, on top of that, you\u2019ve got to accommodate them, you\u2019ve got to give them an executive assistant, you\u2019ve got to give them a judge\u2019s clerk, and you\u2019ve got to give them all of those other things that go with. It\u2019s well over a million dollars, and if you think of that million dollars, in terms of what you could do elsewhere in the system, it\u2019s worth thinking about. Having said that, I want to be clear that we want to make sure that our justice system is properly resourced. For that reason, we\u2019re supporting this bill. It\u2019s important to note that there\u2019s no obligation to appoint the number of judges set out, and maybe there should be a minimum number of judges to make sure we\u2019ve always got enough. The last thing we want is the executive nickel and diming the judiciary by not appointing enough judges. That hasn\u2019t happened to date, but it\u2019s a protection that we might want to consider.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003ELifting the cap is appropriate. Having said that, I also want to look at the other things that are in this bill, which some of the other speakers have skimmed over. In fact, National Party members skim over everything, because the backbenchers\u2014I mean, at least their Ministers engage with the issue, but the backbenchers aren\u2019t actually engaged with the very tricky issues that present themselves. If you look at, for example, the powers given to registrars and judges to dismiss out-of-hand claims on the basis that they are an abuse of procedure, it\u2019s actually kind of both conceptually and practically challenging. If we think of some things that have happened recently, there is a real danger that someone comes up and presents themselves and they don\u2019t present themselves well and they are a difficult person and they present themselves and present their case in intemperate language. They may even do it in a way which has all the hallmarks of not just an annoying person but a person who\u2019s a little bit\u2014I want to be careful with my language\u2014not balanced. That doesn\u2019t necessarily mean there\u2019s not something to the allegations they\u2019re making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EWhen we come to say that a registrar can refer a matter to a judge on the basis that it is plainly abusive, we need to exercise real caution. There has always been a power for the court to dismiss matters which are an abuse of the process of the court. It\u2019s always been there, but there have been protections there. The protections have always been: if you file a case\u2014and it\u2019s inevitably a lay litigant, and they could have a claim which is not well formulated, not put in legal language, and it might have all kinds of things in it, some outrageous allegations and some language which is not appropriate, but sometimes in the middle of it, deep down, if you look hard enough, there\u2019s a kernel of truth. That gets tested in court, and it might get thrown out at the first instance, but there\u2019s a right of appeal. You can go upstairs, go to the Court of Appeal, and you can argue it there, but here, if you look at it in this case, this gives the power to judges to throw out, essentially, proceedings which they think are plainly an abuse\u2014and this is important\u2014without hearing from the person who filed that claim. They can look at something and go, \u201COh, that\u2019s got nothing to it.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EThe general test for an abuse is that it has a collateral purpose: that it\u2019s not brought for the legitimate purpose of vindicating some legal right but is, in fact, brought, for example, to harass or to damage the reputation of another person. They are classic collateral purposes. Many a time, it\u2019s often said that there are many open and shut cases which are not open and shut. There are many cases where there is no reasonable defence where, all of a sudden, there is a reasonable defence. I guess, when we come to look at this in committee\u2014and the select committee report rightly reflects these views\u2014we need to approach this with real caution. We talk about access to justice and, at the same time, what this does is limit access to justice by giving the power to the court to shut down without a hearing a claim that they consider, that the court considers, that the judge considers to be plainly abusive. We just need to be really cautious there. As it happens, it\u2019s an issue; vexatious litigants are an issue that I looked at closely: the number of times, with vexatious and abusive litigants, where their behaviour is appalling but the acclaim has something to it, and it\u2019s easy to conflate the two. It\u2019s easy to conflate poor behaviour, appalling behaviour, appalling language with the fact that underlying it all is a genuine grievance that deserves to be heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EI guess my point, as we come to this bill, rushing it through the House, of course, as is the wont of this Government, when the courts come to exercise this power is always to pause. One of the kinds of practical things is this: vexatious litigants in particular don\u2019t go away easily. In fact, one of the hallmarks of them is that, when they are turned away in one sense, in one forum, they will open up another litigation in another forum. There are few useful strategies to address this problem, but one is to actually give them a fair hearing, to follow the rules, to listen and to give reasons. One of the challenges of the framework proposed in this bill\u2014and I\u2019m not saying we shouldn\u2019t do it, but we should exercise it cautiously\u2014is that that is not the case. You don\u2019t give a hearing, you don\u2019t hear from the person involved; it\u2019s done on the papers. Think about it this way: if you were a difficult person who felt you had been aggrieved, what would most wind you up? Your claim being dismissed out of hand, never having the chance to eyeball a judge and say, \u201CThis is what my problem is.\u201D and being talked to respective respectfully by a judge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s what people want. That\u2019s what we\u2019re denying. That\u2019s why, in respect of that abuse of procedure, we need to be very cautious indeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc18fca1517544d48a85a448eabd4308\u0022 data-id=\u002206813bda579640f784f8775c209f3fb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc18fca1517544d48a85a448eabd4308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206813bda579640f784f8775c209f3fb9\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Indeed, this bill does deal with a number of changes. For me, one of the main ones I\u2019d like to highlight is that after the amendment is passed, we\u2019re going to be getting, hopefully, five more judges. On this side of the House, we don\u2019t give $2.75 million to the Mongrel Mob, who provide meth to destroy families; we actually get judges there so that we can get our victims heard. I\u2019m so proud of the fact that under our Government, there are 38,000 less victims, and we look forward to making that number even higher. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4a8821e0f6a4444be96d8bf003e0223\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4a8821e0f6a4444be96d8bf003e0223\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Thank you for the opportunity to also take a short call and say a few words about this Judicature (Timeliness) Legislation Amendment Bill, which I always thought was pronounced somewhat different, and when I say always, my whole life I\u2019ve been pronouncing it incorrectly\u2014at least since when I first was aware of it, which dates right back to about first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003ELabour is going to support this bill because we do believe that New Zealanders deserve a justice system that doesn\u2019t leave victims waiting years to have their day in court. But we do need to be honest about the bill. Adding more judges is essentially the legislative equivalent of putting out the buckets when the roof is leaking. It\u2019s necessary, for sure, but it\u2019s hardly some bold system-strengthening approach\u2014and certainly not this bold approach, this silver bullet, this big fix that the Government likes to pretend it\u2019s taking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EThis is what happens when the Government confuses being loud about crime with being serious about crime. They can talk about cracking down until they\u2019re blue in the face, but without the workforce, the rest of the workforce and the infrastructure and the basic supports to actually move the case through, nothing much changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EI thought it was interesting, my colleague Greg O\u2019Connor talked earlier about the category 4 cases and how that now makes up 76 percent of the High Court inflows, and that\u2019s, you know, clearly not just a flip; that\u2019s actually a structural shift. We heard that trials are longer, that they\u2019re more complex, they\u2019re also more frequent. So, you know, yes, increasing this cap is appropriate for now, but it\u2019s hardly bold and it\u2019s the very least this Government could be doing to get to the bottom of this problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EMore importantly, I think the Government also owes New Zealand a bit of an explanation, as my colleague the Hon Dr Duncan Webb just said, for why the most serious violence cases are spiking and why they\u2019re not doing anything to actually address the drivers of crime. If you\u2019re going to brand yourself as tough on crime\u2014\u201Claw and order Government\u201D, as has been branded in the contributions to date\u2014you actually need a bit of a plan to stop harm from happening in the first place, not just react to it after it does happen. That\u2019s a little bit half-baked\u2014half-baked at the very least. The Government can keep pretending and absolutely put their head in the sand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EWell, after two years, the Government has made a very small change to try and address a problem that they claim to be a big change. It\u2019s a little bit hypocritical that they\u2019re here making a big deal about it. You certainly don\u2019t clear a backlog by ignoring the people\u2014all the rest of the people that run that system, do you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EAs I said, we are going to support the bill. We do fundamentally believe that victims in every community deserve to have their day in court, and you can\u2019t deliver timely justice and fair outcomes if you don\u2019t have a system that does so in a timely manner. But again, I don\u2019t want to\u2014and I don\u2019t think that we should be overstating what this bill actually achieves. It\u2019s modest at best. It\u2019s practical for sure. We\u2019ve got no qualms about the practicality of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003ENoting again, as colleagues have done, we are in urgency. If the Government was on top of their legislative programme, we wouldn\u2019t be sitting here at this very, very late stage of urgency suddenly getting to grips with this very simple change that\u2019s apparently going to make this very big move. Let\u2019s not overstate it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EThe Government continues to choose\u2014and it is a choice, absolutely\u2014not to confront the wider problems in our system. That is why so many people are ending up in the system in the first place, and why those violent crimes and those serious crimes like murder\u2014and as my colleague Greg O\u2019Connor very eloquently said earlier on, \u201CYou can\u2019t hide the bodies.\u201D, and the Government certainly can\u2019t hide from the fact that they\u2019re not doing bold things in this space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EWe do need our justice system strengthened from end to end. On this side of the House, we will certainly continue to keep advocating for a much more comprehensive evidence-based approach that actually delivers the things that people in this country deserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002245a91c82858d44fda0df4854f18cb4a9\u0022 data-id=\u0022e888c33e8b0047dabe8fcae93a9056aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002245a91c82858d44fda0df4854f18cb4a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e888c33e8b0047dabe8fcae93a9056aa\u0022\u003EGREG FLEMING (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s my pleasure, n\u014Dku te whiwhi ki te t\u016B kia k\u014Drero ai e p\u0101 ana ki te Judicature (Timeliness) Amendment Bill [it is my good fortune to stand and speak about the Judicature (Timeliness) Amendment Bill].\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002245a91c82858d44fda0df4854f18cb4a9\u0022\u003ESo he aha te M\u0101ori m\u014D Judicature (Timeliness) Amendment Bill? Te Pire Whakatikatika i te T\u014Dmuri o te P\u016Bnaha Whakaw\u0101. He rongo pai ake. Ka tuku au i te pire nei ki te Whare.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002245a91c82858d44fda0df4854f18cb4a9\u0022\u003E[So what is the M\u0101ori term for Judicature (Timeliness) Amendment Bill? \u201CThe Bill that Corrects the Belated Judicial System\u201D. It sounds better. I commend this bill to the House.]  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022 data-id=\u0022e66ce7a638fa4f95b68064d35445d29f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e66ce7a638fa4f95b68064d35445d29f\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. [Interruption] Thank you. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise and speak in support of this bill at second reading. We are supportive of it because it is an access-to-justice bill, as colleagues have said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI hate to start with a negative but it\u2019s a bill that also perplexes me because I feel a little bit like the Government are doing the access to justice hokey-tokey when it comes to decision makers in the justice space. I say that because in\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220c9e23d9da24b479ab6c90842e5dcb5\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Hokey-pokey.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb42c6605de449f58f8e8d1c72cc4f18\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014hokey-pokey, hokey-tokey, say it five times fast!\u2014the draft bill we have the additional two; the Amendment Paper\u2019s going to, hopefully, change that. I\u2019m very supportive of a change in terms of an increase, but I will be supporting changes that my colleague is making in his Amendment Papers, as well, but, in the same year, the Government have also reduced the number of decision makers on the Human Rights Review Tribunal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThe Human Right Review Tribunal currently has, I believe, the two chairpeople but also the three deputy chairpeople. The deputy chairperson can hear the case with a community panel on their own, and that speeds up the system, essentially; it means that you don\u2019t need to have the chairpeople there at every case. However, in this year\u2019s Budget, those additional deputies have not been extended. So it takes the Human Rights Review Tribunal down from five, to two decision makers. Now, if you speak to people involved in the tribunal, these are sexual harassment claims in the employment space, these are discrimination claims, these are also health claims that go through the Health and Disability Commissioner, and they\u2019re Privacy Act complaints as well. Some of them will tell you that it can take two to three years to get to a final decision\u2014two to three years when we have five decision makers. So it begs the question: why would you reduce the number of decision makers there, when clearly there are already delays, if your theory of the game is that increasing the number of decision makers is going to help with the system? So access to justice hokey-tokey aside, a little bit of consistency would be very much appreciated. But we are supportive of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI think what the Government tend not to do is see the access-to-justice space as a whole. I do think that that\u2019s part of the problem. I will speak to other things that they should be doing to achieve the goal of this bill later in my speech or, if I don\u2019t get the opportunity to, in committee of the whole House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI did want to, first, touch on a point that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb raised, which was self-represented litigants. I do think that that is something we\u2019re going to have to watch in terms of what this bill does, to ensure that the vexatious provisions aren\u2019t used outside the scope in which they were intended to be used. The first thing is the problem of the way in which the litigants can behave, and Dr Webb made the point that their behaviour can become conflated with the issue itself. But I also think the other problem is the scale at which we\u2019re seeing a growth in self-represented litigants. So I do have some helpful data here which shows that at the end of June 2023, we had more than 70\u00A0percent of civil cases in the District Court involving a self-represented party\u201470 percent in the District Court; now, that\u2019s compared to 52 percent at the same time in 2015, eight years and a massive increase in self-represented litigants. The Family Court: you have a doubling in the last 10 years of the people who represent themselves. So it\u2019s not an issue we can ignore; we really need to make sure that we find a way for the courts to recognise these people will not have the same set of skills, necessarily as a legal representative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EInterestingly, the community law centres\u2014we\u2019ve, obviously, just passed a bill about community law. Community Law Auckland did have a system where they would go into the courts and assist self-represented litigants and just help them understand court procedure. But I think the question is: well, how do we expand a model like that so that if we are going to bring in provisions that may potentially be quite rights-damaging for self-represented litigants, we\u2019re also providing them with the support and, maybe not legal advice, but, certainly with some legal support at the front end so that they are able to support themselves while they are in court?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EWe had a number of submissions that we heard at select committee on this. The Law Society is always extremely comprehensive. They raised the issue of the definition of \u201Cplainly abusive\u201D and the fact that, again, in regards to self-represented litigants, that may present as a problem. I may speak to a few more of the issues that they raised, in the course of the committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThere are also amendments to the Coroners Act which allow the coroner to close cases. Now, when I read that provision, my mind went back to the last term of Parliament where we had a petition in front of the Justice Committee about the slow pace at which coroners cases were proceeding. So I do think this goes some way to addressing that. But what was also clear when people were submitting to us is that it was a very emotional process. Some people were waiting for considerable amounts of time for very personal decisions for them to be able to access life insurance payments, as well. We have to remember there will be people who would like their family member\u2019s case to go through a coroner\u2019s hearing, who will be confronted with a coroner\u2019s decision to close a file instead of investigating. I do have an amendment on this point, which just asks that if the coroner is deciding to close a file, they turn their minds to precisely the same factors as they would have to if they were opening a file or opening the initial file, as well, which I think is a sensible change and, hopefully, one that the Minister will agree with. I will speak more to the amendment when that comes through the pipeline.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll just mention, briefly, Greg O\u2019Connor\u2019s amendment which is looking at setting a range of judges, as opposed to a cap or a lower threshold. So the problem with a lower threshold, if you said that there always had to be, say, 60 judges, is that, at any given point, you would have to have appointed more than that lower threshold. That\u2019s obviously because there may be unforeseen resignations, for example, so you couldn\u2019t dip below the statutory provision, or there may be a debt, in which case you would also be below the statutory provision. So a low threshold is somewhat problematic. Having a high threshold in terms of what the cap is is potentially quite useful; although, again, what I would suggest\u2014and this is the amendment that has been tabled\u2014is that a range would be the best option. The reason why you might not also want a minimum is that you may not want unconstrained powers of appointment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThe thing about the High Court judges is that those are very serious, sensitive, important decisions that are being made at the High Court\u2014judicial reviews go to the High Court, which is, of course, a case about whether the proper process has been carried out in public institutions, and by Government Ministers. Certainly, within that delicate balance that is Parliament and the discretion of Ministers versus our judiciary\u2014not that this would ever happen\u2014but you would never certainly want to provide for the powers for someone to stack a court by making a large number of appointments in a short period of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EJust in my last 30 seconds\u2014I did mention there are other issues that ought to be addressed in this space, as well, that just feel like they\u2019re being ignored. This morning, on RNZ, we heard about the poor state of our courts and the fact that in some of them, I think it was Rotorua, that there were cockroaches still being seen climbing the walls; certainly, in Waitakere, there\u2019s mould and there are leaks; and I\u2019ve had to interview clients in the hallways, as well. So all of this is part of what true access to justice means. I look forward to speaking more about that at the committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022 data-id=\u0022c346f2788c8b4f7d99ae5d0a73455c53\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c346f2788c8b4f7d99ae5d0a73455c53\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, this is great legislation increasing the number of High Court judges. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022 data-id=\u00221f00de121c214652a0f65ffebe6442e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f00de121c214652a0f65ffebe6442e5\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E It is interesting that we have such in-depth and insightful contributions from the Government side. They last all of five seconds. I would try to reach the brevity of my good friend Greg Fleming as well, but unfortunately, I have a little bit more time on my hands. So we\u2019ll give it a bit more attention because the Judicature (Timeliness) Legislation Amendment Bill is actually a small bill, but it\u2019s a small bill that we are paying attention to. We do support it, but it is also a bill that really does show that this Government is a Government that mistakes busyness for action: simply trying to get stuff done without really doing anything. That\u2019s the nature of this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EWe don\u2019t need to be too concerned with this bill. What we need to do is consider the pipeline to the courts. We really do need to consider the pipeline to the courts. We need to get tough on inequality. That\u2019s what we need to get tough on, and that\u2019s the focus of the Green Party, Te P\u0101ti K\u0101k\u0101riki: guaranteed minimum income to reduce desperation, cleaner, cheaper, smarter power to reduce power bills; public transport for affordable mobility; the provision of jobs through our green industrial strategy. All of this will have a positive impact on the numbers entering the court system. This bill is a bill that\u2019s dealing with the symptoms\u2014it\u2019s dealing with the symptoms; it\u2019s not dealing with the cause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EAs my colleague Tamatha Paul mentioned, 140,000 court appearances were delayed through COVID and we\u2019re now doing catch-up. That\u2019s why we will support this bill. We will support this bill, but there is also that question that my colleague Lawrence Xu-Nan mentioned: how do we do things a bit better? How do we get more diversity and representation in our High Court? Because that\u2019s something that we know we\u2019re lacking. We\u2019re currently lacking this at the moment. We do have a very diverse society and a multicultural society. That\u2019s really valuable. How do we get that diversity and representation in our court system and in our High Court? That\u2019s one thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re also pleased that this bill increases the number of High Court judges, but what it doesn\u2019t do is meet the request of the Chief Justice who said that we needed to have a 25 percent increase in our High Court judges. So it\u2019s not quite getting there. It\u2019s not following the recommendations from our Chief Justice. So this is problematic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EWe also heard that things are getting a bit more expensive and a bit more complicated because there\u2019s that lack of section 27 reports. By causing a whole lot more problems in society, we are creating the need for a bigger court system. Again, we\u2019re addressing the symptoms, we\u2019re not addressing the problem and we\u2019re not addressing the cause. That\u2019s the problem, really, that we\u2019re facing here. We\u2019ll support this bill because we do need that representation\u2014we\u2019ll certainly support this bill\u2014and we do need courts that work and we do need access to courts, but, and I\u2019ll say it again, we cannot ignore the causes that drive people into desperation, that drive people into our courts. That\u2019s why we need to be focused. We need to be tough on inequality much more than focusing simply on the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d54ef106be541878451606e4aa4ecba\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: Landlords.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256c8aa67acee49d48a833204862abcec\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s exactly right. As my colleague Lawrence Xu-Nan said, one of the things we could definitely do is get tough on landlords and put $3\u00A0billion into our court system. Now, that would be very helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EOur concern is this bill is a small bill. It is helpful. It doesn\u2019t do a great deal, and it doesn\u2019t go far enough, according to the Chief Justice, but it does do something. However, there is so much more to be done, and we are very focused, on this side of the House, on getting tough on inequality and not giving away more to the tobacco companies. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225af47bf01e62425596b083115eb60bc1\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002242236db99bf34f43afe95e27aaf95baa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242236db99bf34f43afe95e27aaf95baa\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for committee stage immediately. I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Judicature (Timeliness) Legislation Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d54686c6245641e9a1cc22a8a5c945ca\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002217723d7d5a594bec91b23b34c5dcb26c\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Senior Courts Act 2016, and Schedule 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022bac108e4f4fd43ad9e450619738ca7ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bac108e4f4fd43ad9e450619738ca7ca\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Judicature (Timeliness) Legislation Amendment Bill. We now come to Part 1. Part 1 is the debate on clauses 3 to 9\u2014\u201CAmendments to Senior Courts Act 2016\u201D\u2014and Schedule 1. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5632054781446629a8fb2dc39a274c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5632054781446629a8fb2dc39a274c3\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m pleased to be leading the Judicature (Timeliness) Legislation Amendment Bill through the committee stage. This bill supports the Government\u2019s commitment to an effective and efficient justice system. The bill amends the Senior Courts Act, Criminal Procedure Act, and the Coroners Act to improve timeliness in New Zealand\u2019s courts by maximising judicial resource.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EThe amendments will increase the cap on the number of High Court judges from 55 to 57, give courts better tools to address proceedings that plainly abuse the process of the court, meaning these can be disposed of quickly by a single judge, reduce duplication at the pre-trial stage of criminal proceedings, ensure appeals are heard at the most appropriate level, and enable coroners to close inquiries they have previously decided to open if it is no longer appropriate to conduct the inquiry. These improvements will ensure judicial resource is focused on the most critical matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EThe benefits of improved court timeliness will be felt across the justice sector. I wish to also draw Minister Goldsmith\u2019s Amendment Paper to the attention of the House for consideration during this committee stage. The Amendment Paper makes a further increase to the number of High Court judges that may be appointed, to 60. This is intended to better enable the courts to respond to unexpected long-term absences. When a judge is unexpectedly on extended leave, for example, due to illness\u2014or serious illness\u2014this puts a strain on rostering and negatively impacts timeliness. The additional three judges would be appointed to cover this unexpected long-term absence to maintain timeliness in the High Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EThe Amendment Paper also makes changes to better support the transition between High Court judges. It would enable an incoming judge to take office up to three months before the retirement of an existing judge. This will make the transition between judicial appointments more efficient. I\u2019m happy to take questions on that as we debate the bill during the committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EThere are key changes to this bill that have been made at select committee. In the report to the House, the Justice Committee recommended two key amendments. The first is clarifying that an order to strike out proceedings may be made on the papers. Clause 7 of the bill inserts new sections 164A to 164C into the Senior Courts Act. These provisions relate to striking out or otherwise dealing with plainly abusive civil proceedings. The Justice Committee recommended amending new section 164B to allow a judge to make an order to strike out or otherwise deal with a plainly abusive civil proceeding on the papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EThe second one is clarifying that a coroner need not provide information about circumstances of death. Clause 20 of the bill inserts new section 65A into the Coroners Act to allow coroners to close an inquiry they have earlier decided to open if new information or a change in circumstances mean it is no longer appropriate to conduct the inquiry. For consistency with other existing provisions in the Coroners Act, the Justice Committee recommended that new section 65A be amended to clarify when a coroner does not need to provide information about the circumstances of the death. The coroner would need to have taken into account the public interest in the death and be satisfied there is no clear benefit to the public in providing that information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EI thank the Justice Committee for their work on strengthening this bill and their support in the House progressing this bill through committee of the whole House and the third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d306931b6bee4a39bfba6d14d6f916c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d306931b6bee4a39bfba6d14d6f916c6\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014\u014Ch\u0101riu):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Thank you, Minister. It\u2019s interesting, Minister, that we\u2019re focused on the judges, in this amendment, as though the judges are the only people that exist in the whole of the system. In fact, anyone who\u2019s had anything to do with courts, particularly High Courts, will know that the judges are very much a part of a big machine. In fact, the role of judges is probably diminished, truth be known, because, now, of the amount of prescription imposed on judges. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EThe days of the old character judges like, say, Sir John Jeffries is one that comes to mind, in Wellington in particular, who actually commanded a lot of authority, not just from even their presence in the court room, but from actually the wisdom of their judgments that often resonated right through\u2014whether it be lawyers, police officers, and even defendants. So just interested that this amendment really just focuses particularly around the number of High Court judges.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got an Amendment Paper, Minister, around the High Court judges. What we\u2019d said is we\u2019ve now\u2014and I notice that the Minister\u2019s amendment has now moved it to be no fewer than 60 or to 60. My amendment says let\u2019s keep this flexible. Flexibility in the system has got to be preferable to the very prescription that I see as being something of a bar to justice or certainly slows justice or prevents individualising a lot of the decisions that smart judges used to make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EMy amendment says that, perhaps, we should have the flexibility that says the number of High Court judges appointed from time to time refer to the section 6(2)(b) must not be fewer than 60 but not exceed 65, because this would again allow for the ups and downs, the variations that do come. There\u2019ll be times where there will be the need, for various reasons\u2014for example, you\u2019ll see, at the moment, particularly around where the economy is under strain, there are a lot more civil cases coming through where businesses have come into strife and all the associated legal issues that arise from that. Again, that would just give the issue that may well be we need to go to 63 judges for some time to deal with that. So my amendment is to deal with just that. It\u2019s actually an amendment to the Minister\u2019s amendment, which, of course, is the one that has been placed on table just now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EMy question would be: how did we come to the number that we have? Is there any reason why we can\u2019t introduce some sort of flexibility here around five\u2014I\u2019m aware that there is, as my colleague the Hon Dr Duncan Webb pointed out, a lot of cost involved in one of these High Court judges, which, again, reflects on the point I made that a judge is just one part of a very big machine in these courts. So the question is: how did we arrive at the number we did, and is there any reason why we can\u2019t have the flexibility between 60 and 65 to reflect the conditions that may exist at any one time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u002222d60f53b1314f51a42d8ff5b489e97f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222d60f53b1314f51a42d8ff5b489e97f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Nicole McKee. You OK?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u00225e8a59385b8a42f88ea8a00ea86afef9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e8a59385b8a42f88ea8a00ea86afef9\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, yeah, no. When I stood up, the chair went back, and I went with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fd4db60e7374ff59dc5d4e8ed4a64c2\u0022\u003EGreg O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: I hope my question wasn\u2019t that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223752194046324133af8d5772188aab82\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. It was fine. I thank the member Greg O\u2019Connor for putting his thoughts together on this bill. The questions that he asked are really good ones as well. I would like to take the opportunity to be able to answer them. I\u2019m referring to the member\u2019s Amendment Paper 443, where he is looking to amend the Amendment Paper of Minister Goldsmith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EIn answer to his questions about the minimum and maximum number of judges, there is a reason why we don\u2019t increase it to 65. That is because the High Court judges are paid through a permanent legislative authority, which is held in section 135(1) of the Senior Courts Act 2016. The judges remuneration is set independently by the Remuneration Authority to maintain judicial independence, and so we need to think about that every time we add numbers to the cap because it means that there has to be an appropriation put aside for that number. It includes, as the member had pointed out, additional staff that need to go with those judges too. To increase the cap even further means having to put aside additional funds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003ENow, we don\u2019t tend to go under the cap that we\u2019ve had by saying that we\u2019ll have no fewer than 60. The reality is that when a judge is appointed, they\u2019re, effectively, appointed until they retire. So they\u2019re there for life. But the change in the Amendment Paper that Minister Goldsmith has proposed is to allow the transfer of some of these judges who are coming up for retirement\u2014and there\u2019s quite a few of them coming up for retirement\u2014but there\u2019s also, unfortunately, a number of people who are getting quite sick at the moment. The way that the current legislation is recorded is that we cannot implement a new judge until an existing judge actually retires. Then a new judge comes in and has to have three months\u2019 worth of training, so we\u2019re actually down a judge for three months while that training occurs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003ESo the Amendment Paper is proposing that we open up to allow an extra three more judges\u2014five in total\u2014with those three judges being able to train within the three-month period that a judge is either going to be sick and stand down or is retiring, and then that way we have no loss and continuity between the judges for that three-month period. So that\u2019s the reason why the Amendment Paper is proposing a request for an extra three, and the reason why we are not capping it at, say, 65, mainly because the funding would have to be put aside, and we think that we\u2019ve landed at the right number, allowing the three-month changeover for three judges at a time, and increasing the cap by two.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc36b3fcfaed435e905ecbc3f8bc1efd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc36b3fcfaed435e905ecbc3f8bc1efd\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014\u014Ch\u0101riu):\u003C/span\u003E If I may, is the danger of that not then, Minister, that the workload is irrelevant in this? We often hear members across the Chamber boasting about the strategies that are being implemented that are going to end up with more people in prison, and, certainly, a harder attitude towards them. Surely a flexible system is one where every part of the system must move?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EI remember Bill English saying, in about 2016 or 2017\u2014lamenting\u2014that prisons were a failure of society and lamenting the number of people that we actually had in prison in New Zealand. He also added, \u201CHeck, I\u2019m not going to put more police officers on, because I know that if I put more police officers on, I\u2019m going to need more prisons, and I\u2019m going to need more judges\u2014it\u2019s going to impact on every part of the system.\u201D You may remember during my second reading speech that I mentioned that the courts tend to be the bottleneck in the justice sector\u2014the whole criminal justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EWhere we can\u2019t even have the flexibility to apply more or less\u2014and, in fact, it\u2019s only ever going to be governed by the Vote\u2014then surely, Minister, it means that we\u2019ve actually got no ability to reflect reality. We often hear that we must be able to have that flexibility to react to the reality of the world in which we\u2019re living. By being only driven by the Vote, as you\u2019ve said, and little else, then we actually just build that bottleneck. In fact, it could create a less or a lower functioning and more unfair justice system for that very reason.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u002296dcc2fd0c6e4466b222d5ce1cd0a619\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296dcc2fd0c6e4466b222d5ce1cd0a619\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just want to follow both my colleague, the member Greg O\u2019Connor, as well as the Minister\u2019s response on this, because the number of judges is, I think, probably one of the more significant aspects\u2014and it has, probably, the broadest impact to our court system\u2014of the Judicature (Timeliness) Legislation Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EFirst of all, in terms of the Hon Paul Goldsmith\u2019s amendment, it\u2019s really heartening to see another further increase from 57 to 60. I\u2019m really, really happy to see that the Government is increasing that, and I also want to acknowledge your response to that, Minister. But can I just check, in terms of that, what the Minister is saying is that the extra three is more about adding that flexibility\u2014so we\u2019re not always going to have 60, because there is a degree of ebb and flow; which is also good, because, I think, that also feeds into I think what Greg O\u2019Connor was saying, in terms of the adaptability when we need it, and there are stages where, maybe, we won\u2019t push up to 60. But as the Minister yourself said, there are people who are getting to retire who are ill, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI wondered\u2014two questions, I think: I do have an amendment on this, as well, and it\u2019s an amendment to the Hon Paul Goldsmith\u2019s Amendment Paper 443, which pushes up from 60 to 69. The reason that it is 69 is because, in the memorandum that the Chief Justice mentioned, in 2030, an additional 25\u00A0percent is what the Chief Justice said is needed in our court system to be able to work through and everything\u2014hence 125 percent of 55 is 69. I want to check if the Minister would consider that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThe other question I have for the Minister\u2014and the Minister mentioned, in terms of the appropriation for this\u2014and I don\u2019t know if the Minister remembered that we had this very sort of same conversation during the Estimates scrutiny week, where I asked you, in terms of the appropriation that was set aside for High Court judges, and the fact that the appropriation didn\u2019t line up with the number that is, specifically, two High Court judges or the remuneration equivalent of two High Court judges. But in there it was lower than two, and the Minister responded by saying that, you know, people retire at different times and leave at different times; that appointment may not always be the same. But now, we\u2019re seeing that being pushed up by another three, so I do want to check that that is not something that, at least upon initial reading, on a face level, the Budget 2025 appropriation for courts has allowed for. I want to check with the Minister, then: is this something that will potentially eventuate as kind of working within what the Budget allocation, or is it something that will eventuate as part of a supplementary Budget? I don\u2019t know if the Minister is able to actually speak on that, but I want to check anyway, because the addition of three High Court judges is significant and does mean that, like the Minister said, more money needs to be set aside. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThose are my two initial questions to begin with\u2014actually, three questions: I wondered if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind just speaking a little bit more about the new clause 4(3), as inserted by Amendment Paper 443, replacing \u201Cthe Governor-General thinks that 1 or more additional Judges are\u201D with \u201Cat any time the Governor-General thinks that an additional Judge is\u201D. I want to check with the Minister, because there\u2019s no explanatory note attached to it, what that change of phrasing means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3cab57f5cbe4fb0b7734e32bcbacb1c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3cab57f5cbe4fb0b7734e32bcbacb1c\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for his questions. In regard to his amendment lodged at 7.36 p.m., I have the same response I gave to Greg O\u2019Connor, which is that under the permanent legislative authority is how our judges are paid. So the increase of two permanent judges has been accounted for, as the member has pointed out. The extra three that are added on are there for replacement of any judge that retires or gets ill, for example. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EIt just allows us to bring in that transitional three-month period so that when the judge who is standing down has stood down, they are no longer being paid, and the three\u2014it may only be one at a time\u2014are needed. But as the member mentioned, it\u2019s about the flexibility and allowing up to three judges at any one time to be trained within that three-month period. But the costings for that will change after that period of time. I hope that answers the member\u2019s question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6f12b903f7a4799a1b9ddc220d40121\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6f12b903f7a4799a1b9ddc220d40121\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Mr Chair, and thanks, Minister, for your constructive answers to my colleagues\u2019 questions. I have some questions in relation to clauses 5 to 7 of the bill, which are new sections 164A to 164C, and these are the provisions that discussed plainly abusive civil proceedings. I\u2019m really keen to flesh out the strike-out provisions, so I have some questions, and they are all, kind of, centred around those two concepts that, among other concepts, underpin our justice system: the rule of law and the concept of natural justice. The bill talks about if a person\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228219ac6e9f3e4ddaa4f5ef8a9483a3aa\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Was that new section 164A to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfea1bd6e5ec4aa792d17957467deae5\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL\u003C/span\u003E: New sections 164A to 164C.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a90bfd7ca83e434188765d8838c20efe\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: OK\u2014cool. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d9eba09b4084048b0af973d82983eb2\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. So obviously, where a person has been struck out twice within two years\u2014what is it; what is the wording?\u2014they are not going to be able to file further proceedings for the following three years within those senior courts. I just wanted to ask how you arrived at some of those time frames. The time frame of being struck out twice within those two years, is that based on those kinds of provisions and other laws? What rationale helped you to arrive at the three years to be struck out? Is that based on other similar provisions within our law? Is there a reason for why we\u2019ve gone with three years? Interesting that we went with two strikeouts since the Minister is a three-strikes person. But, yeah, I\u2019d be keen to just understand a little bit more about how you arrived at that rationale.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EAnother question I had is\u2014and apologies if I\u2019m missing some of the details that might have been provided during select committee, but, obviously, Lawrence, as our permanent member on the Justice Committee, is privy to a bit more information\u2014if there was any analysis done on who might be affected by these kinds of provisions and whether there\u2019s been any analysis of, I guess, maybe, what type of person in our society is most responsible for, essentially, wasting the court\u2019s time with plainly abusive litigation? It would be really helpful to understand what type of person is it. Is it a person who is using litigation to abuse another person, which we see sometimes in the family court and other courts when it\u2019s an inter-family or domestic dispute? Is it people who have a lack of understanding of the law and, therefore, are constantly just using the court\u2019s time because there is a lack of understanding? Is it people with a lot of resource who are able to pay for lawyers and all of these kinds of things? So yeah\u2014trying to understand who will be most impacted by the strike-out provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EWhile we\u2019re here, I\u2019m keen to start talking about that language of \u201Cplainly abusive litigation\u201D. There is a lot that we could discuss about that phrasing. We know in the Law Society\u2019s submission on this bill that the bill doesn\u2019t provide a definition for \u201Cplainly\u201D in this context, so I\u2019m keen to understand: what does that mean? What are some examples of things that are \u201Cplainly abusive\u201D? Does it mean that it is the use of strong or inappropriate language? Or is it just that someone is continuing to seek the same recourse with the same outcome, and they just continue to pursue that same avenue over and over again? What does \u201Cplainly\u201D mean in the context of this bill, and what does \u201Cplainly abusive\u201D mean in terms of case law? What examples can we look to in case law or within proceedings to understand the way that that term is used in this context?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528bff81a75942df8b97f66c623c8a91\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ll start there. I\u2019m sure there are probably many more questions around the use of \u201Cplainly abusive\u201D, so I\u2019m keen to dive back into that, but I\u2019m keen to get the Minister\u2019s answers on some of those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7b4d82eb3e64b279e7934540c8fe4a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7b4d82eb3e64b279e7934540c8fe4a6\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I thank the member for her questions. I\u2019ve got quite long answers, so bear with me, but I hope it helps.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to start with clause 7, inserting new section 164A. This is enabling a registrar of a senior court to refer civil proceedings that they believe are plainly an abuse of court process to a single judge of the court in which the proceedings were filed to consider whether to make an order striking out or otherwise dealing with the proceeding under new section 164B, which I\u2019ll get to. The process for striking out or otherwise dealing with civil proceedings that plainly abuse the process of the court, in new sections 164A and 164B, is more modelled on an existing process that is already in the High Court Rules. The bill applies this to the Court of Appeal and to the Supreme Court as well. The intent is to enable proceedings that are plainly an abuse of process to be dealt with efficiently by a single judge in each of the senior courts. Currently, at the moment, they need to get a panel of judges\u2014bringing, quite often, three or more judges in\u2014so this is allowing them to have one. The registrar\u2019s role in referring a potentially abusive proceeding to a judge is the same as the existing role of a High Court Registrar under the High Court Rules that I mentioned just before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EMoving on to section 164B: the new section 164B enables the judge, if satisfied that a proceeding that the registrar has referred to them is plainly an abuse of process, to strike it out or make that order or give directions. A judge can strike out a civil proceeding if they\u2019re satisfied that it\u2019s plainly an abuse of the process\u2014and \u201Cplainly an abuse of the process\u201D, I\u2019ve been told, is a very high threshold. The courts have adopted a two-limbed test in determining whether something is plainly an abuse of process. The first test is whether it would be manifestly unfair to the respondent that they be required to respond. The second test is whether right-thinking people would consider that the court was exercising very poor control of its processes if it permitted the matter to proceed further. Again, this is already detailed in the High Court Rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EThis provision is enabling only. A judge will still keep his or her discretion on whether to make an order under that section. The judge can also make an order to give directions to ensure the proceeding is disposed of or proceeds in a way that complies with the court rules. I note\u2014and the member said she\u2019s not on the Justice Committee\u2014the select committee added to new section 164B that another order may be made on the papers without the opportunity to make submissions. This ensures that the new power is consistent with the current strike-out power contained in the High Court Rules, which allows an order to be made without allowing the person who filed the proceeding to make submissions. That came from the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EIf I move on to new section 164C, because it just sums them all up together: the restraint that has been made in new section 164C is similar to the existing provisions for a general order in sections 166 to 169 of the Senior Courts Act, which allow a judge to issue an order restraining a party from commencing or continuing proceedings if satisfied that at least two proceedings brought by that person were totally without merit\u2014so meeting those two tests. The key difference from the current law is that the restraint in new section 164C applies automatically where two proceedings are struck out as plainly an abuse of process. It does not require a party to apply for an order or for a judge to make an order on their own initiative. The restraint itself is not able to be appealed, but the strike-out orders that lead to the restraint can be. If a strike-out order is set aside on appeal, the restraint no longer applies. People will still be able to access the courts if they are restrained, but they need to seek permission from the High Court first. They will still have that opportunity. The intent here is to prevent the repeated abuse of proceedings that wastes courts\u2019 time and the time of parties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u002296dc7431fd5b4f4cb40cf107c6e07386\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296dc7431fd5b4f4cb40cf107c6e07386\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank you, Minister, for the comprehensive explanation. That\u2019s really, really helpful in terms of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI just want, I guess, to pick up the last thing the Minister said, on section 164C, which is that people still have the ability, for example, but they have to go through a High Court judge, which, I think, answers one of my questions, which is around what happens in the kinds of appeals, the kinds of cases being brought, for example, to the Supreme Court, particularly when it comes to things like the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. Are they still able to do that? I am assuming that a High Court judge will be using their best judgment to decide if it is of a serious enough nature that the order isn\u2019t going to be in effect in that particular case. Thank you, Minister, for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI want to check with the Minister: as part of the select committee process, in new section 164B(2A), inserted by clause 7, the Minister did mention that one of the things that was carried over was the idea of \u201Cmay make an order or give directions \u2026 on the papers\u201D, noting that the intention of that is to be able to make it on papers without notice to the person filing the proceedings\u2014\u201Cwithout giving the person who filed the proceeding the opportunity to make submissions.\u201D At the same time, it would not affect the person\u2019s right to appeal an order. It could be\u2014we\u2019ve been doing this for 70-plus hours\u2014but if a person doesn\u2019t know that an order has been made by a judge, would they then have to wait until they re-appeal an order? \u201CHow will they know to appeal an order if they don\u2019t know that they\u2019ve got notice?\u201D is, I guess, the crux of my question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0b28393b6dd47868b20a87b2742857e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0b28393b6dd47868b20a87b2742857e\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I thank the member again for his question. The allowance here is for the judge to make the order without the papers, without the submission, and there is a process that every judge and court goes through in order to serve orders on a person once an order has been made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270ed52c2243745f285c14a2d3413a86a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f22e292f595d430f90b05175a1abe71d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270ed52c2243745f285c14a2d3413a86a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f22e292f595d430f90b05175a1abe71d\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229c12271c92a64e8f972e9f92844997bc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022be0fffdcd1244c7c986afb4aea5198b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be0fffdcd1244c7c986afb4aea5198b5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Greg O\u2019Connor\u2019s tabled amendments to the Minister\u2019s amendments to clause 4 set out on Amendment Paper 443 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ecf388c8d9cf41bbaf11c1f3c7af75e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ecf388c8d9cf41bbaf11c1f3c7af75e4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendments to the Minister\u2019s amendments to clause 4 set out on Amendment Paper 443 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002272b4737a43cc4cd7965d84f72ab032c9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c79c9d6e9b844c29978d6ce0657274aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c79c9d6e9b844c29978d6ce0657274aa\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Amendment Paper 443 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa6bb1eef1384a1289bcb15994a1ba90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa6bb1eef1384a1289bcb15994a1ba90\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Part 1 as amended stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b13810215df747b2a01d4f7be5d7d4c1\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to other legislation, and Schedules 2 to 4\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022d962a00190c84a6fa7597f204517744f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d962a00190c84a6fa7597f204517744f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 2. Part 2 is the debate on clauses 10 to 29, \u201CAmendments to other legislation\u201D, and Schedules 2 to 4. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u002206073d1435c64d79a155cf0d966e0b28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206073d1435c64d79a155cf0d966e0b28\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Thank you again to the Minister for a very informative response to questions on Part 1 around the Senior Courts Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EIn terms of Part 2, I think I\u2019m going to start with the first half of Subpart 1, which is amendments to the Criminal Procedure Act 2011 and move on to the Coroners Act 2006.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EStarting with Subpart 1, I note that clause 12 is probably the most significant clause with the management of pre-trial processes if the defendant is charged in respect of two or more offences in different District Court offices. I just want to check with Minister. In this case, particularly when we\u2019re looking at section 156A(2), it does say, \u201CA District Court Judge, on the Judge\u2019s own initiative or on the application of the prosecutor or the defendant, may direct that the pre-trial processes in respect of some or all the proceedings be managed in one of the offices of the District Court\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ECan I just get a clarification from the Minister. With that, when you\u2019re looking at two different District Court judges, is this to do with when a defendant is charged with the same crime in two different areas or with two different crimes in two or more areas? That\u2019s my first question to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EIn terms of the second question I have for the Minister, what I\u2019m finding that\u2019s quite interesting in terms of subsection\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b40c93aa983e4e21ad993bb3a06beddf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Can you just repeat that first question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d69026c869b546b09117c6507a97a3c6\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: Sure\u2014OK. When a defendant is charged with two or more offences, two or more offences means that the offences\u2014each\u2014will have to take place within the jurisdiction of a different District Court\u2014so one offence in one District Court, one in the other one? Or does it mean two or more offences that cross District Courts? That\u2019s my question to start off with, which may provide some clarification for further questions. I wasn\u2019t clear as to section 156A(1)(b) when it says that \u201Cproceedings in respect of the offences have been commenced\u201D; it doesn\u2019t necessarily clarify the charge itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EMy second question is around what we see in terms of section 156A(3), particularly when we\u2019re looking at paragraphs (a) and (b). I think that paragraphs (a) and (b) are a very important inclusion to ensure that if any sort of pre-trial processes are being shifted between different District Courts, the timeliness and interest of justice is still a core part of it. I just wanted to check with the Minister: how would that look in terms of the process itself when a judge makes that determination?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022dcc409f68a8548218e75b9bc0808fe4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dcc409f68a8548218e75b9bc0808fe4f\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E Before I answer the member\u2019s questions, I\u2019d just like to clarify even further an answer to a previous question, which was about when the first strike-out order is made and what happens with that. When a judge makes the first strike-out order, they must inform the litigant of the potential for automatic restraint to apply if they bring future proceedings that abuse the process. This means that people will have a fair warning of the consequence of making abusive applications. Decisions for strike-out may also be appealed. If overturned on appeal, the strike-out decision will not count towards restraint\u2014so that\u2019s further to member Tamatha Paul\u2019s question about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003ETo the member Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s question: when someone is accused of multiple offences, charges can be filed and proceed in different District Court office locations. This means that the defendant can have court appearances at several locations, and that can add to delays and inefficiencies within the court system. Having the ability to bring them into one actually is not only efficient for the courts but it\u2019s probably efficient for the person, because it means they don\u2019t have to go to several different jurisdictions and can have everything heard in the one place\u2014efficiency all around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3bba2af839b4ba49fd825a67a3a7e97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3bba2af839b4ba49fd825a67a3a7e97\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. That clarifies my question on that part. Thank you, Minister. I just want to now move on to new section 319A, inserted by clause 13, and this is, I think, my last contribution for Subpart 1\u2014I\u2019m just going to check one thing\u2014and yeah, then I\u2019ll move on to the Coroners Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EIn terms of new section 319A, I think this is a really interesting section in terms of the ability to ease the workload of the Court of Appeal and the High Court and the more efficient and timely determination of the District Court of Appeal. I\u2019m curious to know, because this section specifically says \u201Capplies to a first appeal or an application\u201D\u2014in terms of the processes, you make the first appeal under this part of the District Court, but what happens if, for example, it goes to the High Court and then gets bounced back? Are you able then to make a second appeal, which the new process under new section 319A would not be available for someone making subsequent appeals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022588fe185cd924419877f1a952f2cb0be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022588fe185cd924419877f1a952f2cb0be\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll speak to the intent of the bill and what the new section 319A, being inserted into the Criminal Procedure Act by clause 13, actually does. The provision is about enabling a single judge of the Court of Appeal to remit certain appeals and applications for leave to the High Court for determination.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EThis new provision is limited to appeals and applications for leave to appeal under Part 6 of the principal Act, for which the Court of Appeal is the first appeal court for decisions of the District Court. The provision is enabling a single Court of Appeal judge to remit cases for which the Court of Appeal is the first appeal court to the High Court for determination.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EAppeals relating to most District Court jury trials, and some District Court judge-alone trials, are currently heard by the Court of Appeal as the first appeal court. This is enabling some first appeals to be remitted to the High Court, which will mean that these cases are determined by one High Court judge instead of three judges in the Court of Appeal. This will ensure more efficient use of judicial resource while retaining the Court of Appeal\u2019s oversight of the appellant jurisdiction in criminal cases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s the whole intent and purpose of that particular clause. The member was asking questions about second appeals, but it actually has to flow in how the courts themselves appeal. The intent, really, is to just outline the fact that we shouldn\u2019t have to have three judges to refer a case back to the High Court because it\u2019s automatically gone to the Court of Appeal. We\u2019re basically saying: bring the High Court back in and allow one judge to make that decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u00221b3b894f369a4cef8dfc8682e6cb7c3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b3b894f369a4cef8dfc8682e6cb7c3f\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Thank you, Minister; that also clarifies my question so I\u2019m going to move on to a new section now. I\u2019m now looking at Subpart 2, in Part 2. We\u2019ve now moved on from the Criminal Procedure Act into the Coroners Act. I\u2019m looking at clause\u00A020, inserting new section 65A: \u201CCoroner may close inquiry despite initial decision\u201D. Now, one of the things that was brought in as a bit of a concern was the retrospectivity of this particular section and the fact that it would apply to inquiries open before, on, or after the bill\u2019s commencement date, and I\u2014have lost my place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI wondered if, for example, in the new section 65A(7A) that is being introduced as a part of this, where the coroner decides to close the inquiry and someone requires them to provide information about it, how would that interact with the retrospectivity of clause 20? I guess, in some ways, when we were at the select committee stage, we could see the intention behind that retrospectivity, particularly in terms of some of the outstanding cases, but I just want to engage with the Minister in terms of some of the Minister\u2019s thoughts around this area and the retrospectivity for the closure of an inquiry. That\u2019s my first question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EMy second question for the Minister\u2014and I guess this crosses over another bill that is currently going through as well, which is the Regulatory Systems (Courts) Amendment Bill. I want to check with the Minister if there are any thoughts around how this particular bill interacts with clause 31 of that bill and the way that the consistency can be matched between sections 64 and 94 of the Coroners Act. In this case, when we\u2019re looking at clause 31 of that other bill\u2014which also has a section around, I guess, a clarification of clause 31 of the Coroners Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI guess the first question I have for the Minister is: what are the Minister\u2019s thoughts around the retrospectivity elements of this? My second question is: how does the Minister foresee this bill, and particularly this clause, interacting with sections 64 and 94 of the Coroners Act, which is currently going through under the bill in the House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ESorry, Mr Chair, the Minister is just getting some advice, I hope. While I\u2019m waiting for the Minister on those two particular questions, I might move on to clause 21, which is section 83 amended, and this is to do with the appointment of specialist advisers. I want to check with the Minister on this particular section. When it was discussed in the Justice Committee it also was one of the ones that we would have thought would be quite obvious as something that should have been included. I guess for something like that, I wanted to check with the Minister because the Minister was also the Minister in the chair when we did the statutes bill and was hugely informative and engaging in that. For something like this, would that be considered something that could also have been brought through as part of the statutes bill instead of having been brought into a separate bill altogether? That\u2019s my next particular question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EMy three questions to the Minister are: clause 20\u2014what are the Minister\u2019s thoughts on retrospectivity? What are the Minister\u2019s thoughts around the interaction with another bill that\u2019s currently going through, particularly that also has implications to the Coroners Act? In terms of clause\u00A021, section 83 amended, is that something that could have been introduced or been brought into another bill, in particular like the statutes bill or a regulatory systems bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022567ec805ad6e4142a6cb5c8a3d102498\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022567ec805ad6e4142a6cb5c8a3d102498\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m going to apologise to the member, because I\u2019ve missed quite a bit of what the member has said. I did pick up some of the beginning part of what he said. What I might do is, actually, in speaking to clause 20, which is the new section 65A that the member was talking about\u2014if he bears with me while I actually refer to Vanushi Walters\u2019 tabled amendment timed 9.08 p.m., I think that might actually end up answering some questions for him. It\u2019s about the coroner\u2019s consideration of section 63 matters when they\u2019ve decided to close an inquiry, which is what the member was asking about\u2014the closing of an inquiry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EIn considering whether an inquiry is no longer appropriate, a coroner will cast their mind back to the reasons they initially opened it in the first place. The reasons for opening the inquiry under section 63 are actually quite a non-exhaustive list. They will not all have been relevant to the decision that the coroner made to open an inquiry in every case. I recognise that the decision to close an inquiry, as the member mentioned, can have quite an impact on families and friends. The changes in new section 65A(3) of the bill require the coroner to notify interested parties of the proposal to close the inquiry, and they must provide the reasons for doing so. The notified parties will then have 15 working days in which to make submissions to the coroner on the proposal to close the inquiry. This consultation will, by its design, involve a discussion about what led the coroner to open the inquiry in the first place and also why they since decided that it was unnecessary to prolong the inquiry any further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003EThere are a whole lot of conversations that will be occurring. They won\u2019t just say, \u201CThat\u2019s it, we\u2019re going to deny it.\u201D In fact, if I recall in legislation, if the family are really adamant that there was, say, some foul play, then a judge will take that on board in their consideration. The purpose of them being able to close the inquiries was when it became quite obvious that a person had, for example, died of natural causes. Once an inquiry has been opened, the inquiry must go through all of its processes\u2014even when the coroner and all people understand that, actually, the person died of natural causes. This is allowing them to be able to close the inquiry when everybody determines the same outcome. At the end of the day, the judge will make the decisions, but the coroners that I know are quite empathetic to the families, and they do work with them. They\u2019re not going to go about trying to close off inquiries unless they do actually have an understanding that there is a reason for doing so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u00221204a4ba27744a7d9013564fbc211541\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221204a4ba27744a7d9013564fbc211541\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Vanushi Walters\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 20, replacing new section 65A(1), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d1bbf51c73364dca8e7ef8391b9918bd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001056\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001057\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001058\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001059\u0022\u003ESchedule 3 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001060\u0022\u003ESchedule 4 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b5bcdaee55eb442a89b080bca05e4f92\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb260ab7558140d2ac7722ca589d003a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb260ab7558140d2ac7722ca589d003a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to our final debate, clauses 1 and 2. This is the debate on clauses 1 and 2, \u201CTitle\u201D and \u201CCommencement\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u00226afc1dfa0c664f4daf2235e97c6dd652\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226afc1dfa0c664f4daf2235e97c6dd652\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I was waiting for \u201CThe question is\u201D, but, anyway, I do have a final question. It\u2019s a reasonably short question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229a9c205f95fc4f5c8943b440b9f5cb1d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a944e096ff04cd99c0c8d94dc8a23c0\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t say it\u2019s your last question!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022077a9b1da5c44793bfa7c28f71111a64\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: It actually is my last question. It actually, genuinely is my last question. I am deeply appreciative of the committee\u2019s patience these last, I don\u2019t know, like 75-odd hours. Also, more excitingly for this committee, it is also my last amendment. I would like to refer the Minister to my amendment at 8.30.02 p.m. on the commencement date. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ENow I\u2019m going to refer to this bill in conjunction with the bill that we just discussed, which is the Legal Services (Distribution of Special Fund) Amendment Bill, because both bills were introduced at the same time and both bills had a commencement date of 1 July 2025. However, I want to check with the Minister on why the updated commencement date for the two has changed, because for the previous one, the commencement date says, \u201CThis Act comes into force on the day after Royal assent.\u201D However, for this particular bill, the commencement date says, \u201CThis Act comes into force on 1 February 2026.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI guess for personal sort of consistency, my amendment is to seek the Minister\u2019s guidance on whether there was support on this. It\u2019s just to simply also change the clause 2 amendment, replacing \u201C1 February 2026\u201D with \u201Cthe day after Royal assent.\u201D, to be consistent with the other bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u00222cb3f704ed62435b836f2c1552c1d0f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cb3f704ed62435b836f2c1552c1d0f0\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. In speaking to the member\u2019s tabled amendment of 8.35.02 p.m., the reason why 1 February 2026 has been inserted is that time is needed to put the operational measures in place to implement the changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u00223fb7073ca9fc4d2fba6a2b9aa112ee41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223fb7073ca9fc4d2fba6a2b9aa112ee41\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014\u014Ch\u0101riu):\u003C/span\u003E Just in relation to the title of the bill, I just wonder why we\u2019ve got such a complicated title. If one googles the word \u201Cjudicature\u201D and pronounces it properly, it refers to the \u201Cadministration of justice by courts and judges, or, more broadly, the judiciary.\u201D Why don\u2019t we just call it the \u201CJudiciary (Timeliness) Legislation Amendment Bill\u201D? I defy anyone in this House when they saw this bill tonight that did not look at it and say, \u201CWhat the hell is that all about?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003EA bill went through this House some years ago\u2014I think it was my fellow member over this side\u2014the plain English bill. We\u2019re all about getting everything nice and simple, so how about an amendment that, instead of the \u201CJudicature\u201D bill, we call it the \u201CJudiciary\u201D bill, so we will all know exactly what it\u2019s all about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022 data-id=\u0022875ea87fe2a3467295050a846df76331\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022698578e9b2fe41fa82a57ad5df8f7d40\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022875ea87fe2a3467295050a846df76331\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E Judicature\u2014judicature\u2014it sounds so cool. Actually, to the member: I really like hearing you trying to say it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270ed52c2243745f285c14a2d3413a86a\u0022 data-id=\u0022bee18579a53d459c88d7e73aa8979d77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270ed52c2243745f285c14a2d3413a86a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bee18579a53d459c88d7e73aa8979d77\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270ed52c2243745f285c14a2d3413a86a\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270ed52c2243745f285c14a2d3413a86a\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u00229041054d2c0e4824bf6f01b2a8cc144b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229041054d2c0e4824bf6f01b2a8cc144b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 2, replacing \u201C1 February 2026\u201D with \u201Cthe day after Royal assent\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f2b82f8781a845dc92b40d19a8af6162\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001076\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001077\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001078\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u00220fbabc49a6314cc284fded82d8735f8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fbabc49a6314cc284fded82d8735f8b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Judicature (Timeliness) Legislation Amendment Bill and reports it with amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002293fe3e12781c40cd9bf1a6e90db709e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293fe3e12781c40cd9bf1a6e90db709e5\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has indicated that it no longer wishes to continue urgency. The House stands adjourned until Tuesday, 9 December. Good night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251118de9203c65b2e4416b75ef7d1cfa4ef15001083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.53 p.m. (Friday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"