"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a650f0fe746bfa96d4089b761eb3ee3a\u0022\u003ETuesday, 21 April 2026\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EThe Speaker\u003C/span\u003E took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dd14dc57c7b6cfc0471790dd7a035f40\u0022\u003EStart of Sitting Day\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022691fbbd3538b07bd9dfcc9577dd584cb\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5eaaac0000677c527cac97459a509d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5eaaac0000677c527cac97459a509d4\u0022\u003EGREG O\u0027CONNOR (Assistant Speaker) (14:00)\u003C/span\u003E: Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King and pray for guidance in our deliberations that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom, justice, mercy, and humility for the welfare and the peace of New Zealand. Amen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022649f7e990edc1a8c8dbf02c5fae6b148\u0022\u003EMotions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229c96951988de0734987a1aaa3e8dcbff\u0022\u003ECondemnation of Antisemitism\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022 data-id=\u0022e293cd280ee21c9b76ecec5bd49a4662\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e293cd280ee21c9b76ecec5bd49a4662\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Deputy Prime Minister) (14:01)\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I seek leave to move a motion without notice and without debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259e920966105ed1b3d15e9286b64b7ff\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003E:\u003C/span\u003E OK. Leave is sought. I\u2019ll put that leave. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb0a997caf851763df0951ac2c9568e7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003E:\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat this House condemn all incidents of antisemitism in New Zealand and affirm that antisemitism has no place here\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002217cc56860c0388c82ac60d380ba88139\u0022\u003EPresentation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ee98dc41c61d5476d580397a7df1a2eb\u0022\u003EPetitions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2c11160b3ba9b26d49c9bf966bca99f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Two petitions have been delivered to the Clerk for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0b73f6e21de64077e0751ab5dc4431f\u0022\u003ECLERK (14:01): \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItemSL1\u0022\u003EPetition of Nate Brewer requesting that the House require the Government to make dyslexia screening, testing, and diagnostic assessment free for all New Zealanders\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Aida Tavassoli requesting that the House urge the Government to create pathways for Iranian New Zealanders to sponsor family members to come to New Zealand, review the Parent Resident Visa ballot and prioritise Iranian applicants, and implement blanket extensions for Iranians on temporary visas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c8fc937d9f22f98bbf14337e664e094\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those petitions stand referred to the Petitions Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002211e85ec59507efc5af8260599600f44b\u0022\u003EPapers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022048c157d67d0053cbbde209281d97254\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Ministers have delivered three papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a49087205336af6b955943a3d2fdfd3f\u0022\u003ECLERK (14:02): \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItemSL1\u0022\u003E2025 annual report of the Charter School Authorisation Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItemSL1\u0022\u003ERegulatory Standards (Excluded Legislation) Notice 2026\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereport of the Ministry for the Environment and Stats NZ on New Zealand\u2019s Environmental Reporting Series: Our Freshwater 2026.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022220ea127a5f9a24d4d6429f5572282e9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I present the 2026-27 draft annual plan of the Controller and Auditor-General. Those papers are published under the authority of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228d2f978000e9e4bbe783cbff2aa4bb7b\u0022\u003ESelect Committee Reports\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223837cedf66eb05a5875acbc73b4b3dec\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Four select committee reports have been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022760ca2522c93a668432b4f63a229faee\u0022\u003ECLERK (14:02): \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItemSL1\u0022\u003EReport of the Education and Workforce Committee on the petition of Dr Kerryn Palmer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereport of the Environment Committee on the Ministry for the Environment and Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet, Long-term Insights Briefing 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereport of the Justice Committee on the Notice of declarations of inconsistency: Public Protection Orders under the Public Safety (Public Protection Orders) Act 2014 and Extended Supervision Orders under the Parole Act 2002\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereport of the Petitions Committee on the petition of Alan Roy Peacock and the petition of Leah Hawkins.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8435f068079bc20ff022c3da3354fae\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Long-term Insights Briefing and the notice of declarations of inconsistency are set down for consideration. No bills have been introduced. The House comes to oral questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226225aa4aa8766eb8638bc510574a0fd7\u0022\u003EOral Questions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ca5f4f7802ceb4d0091a02a1601f3754\u0022\u003EFinance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022888a0f093cd42d5a40ebe17c9e2d7458\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022784f4e929aed4ea6a05d1a10add6eccb\u0022 data-id=\u002201ad134a738e962c435a2928ebc808c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022784f4e929aed4ea6a05d1a10add6eccb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201ad134a738e962c435a2928ebc808c7\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East) (14:03)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister of Finance\u003C/span\u003E: What recent reports has she seen on the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4bf5b3be75b62f62e7e9f2aea08b88e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4bf5b3be75b62f62e7e9f2aea08b88e\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (14:03)\u003C/span\u003E: Today, Stats New Zealand released the latest figures for the Consumers Price Index (CPI). These showed annual CPI inflation for the March quarter of 3.1\u00A0percent, the same as in the December quarter last year and just outside the Reserve Bank\u2019s target range.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022784f4e929aed4ea6a05d1a10add6eccb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022747b597e0c9924eaefcf023bf3bdc7f4\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: Why is annual CPI inflation still outside the band?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b49bc2a5bbade814eeadb9895cda8ed7\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Tradable inflation, which is largely driven by supply and demand for global goods and services, together with movements in New Zealand\u2019s exchange rates, has remained high at 2.5\u00A0percent for the year. This is reflected, for example, in increased food prices, which I know is of concern to New Zealanders. Non-tradable inflation, which is driven by domestic factors and makes up around two-thirds of the CPI basket, has also had some sticky elements, such as local authority rates and electricity. On the positive side, Stats New Zealand points out that rents rose only 1.2\u00A0percent in the year\u2014the smallest annual increase in 16 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022784f4e929aed4ea6a05d1a10add6eccb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264794447ef147148f72ad6da6f12d119\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: What part has conflict in the Middle East played?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220be6bab56acc62e858f09ff0c863f38\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: We know, from a previous data release, that petrol prices rose 18.6\u00A0percent in the month of March alone, following the start of the conflict. However, March is only one month in the quarter, and petrol prices actually fell in January and February. Increased petrol prices are visible in today\u2019s CPI results. Stats NZ identified that they were the largest contributor to the quarterly inflation rate, adding one percentage point to the total. However, their impact will be much more pronounced in the next quarter. Of course, that is partly just maths. Even if fuel prices don\u2019t increase any further, the impact will be counted over three months rather than one month. There are a range of views out there, but I note the Reserve Bank has recently predicted annual CPI inflation of 4.2 percent for the June quarter. I know this is of concern to New Zealanders, which is why the Government continues to call for a cessation of conflict in the Middle East.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022784f4e929aed4ea6a05d1a10add6eccb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc60525b0a3d356601f013792fcee105\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: How does New Zealand\u2019s inflation rate compare to other countries\u2019?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022277980e8c71ace470c841323480f5724\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, annual CPI inflation in Australia is currently 3.7\u00A0percent; in the UK, it is 3.2 percent; and the OECD average is 3.4 percent. All countries are wrestling with the impacts of the Middle East conflict, but as the world goes into a period of higher fuel prices, and therefore higher inflation, New Zealand is starting from a somewhat stronger position than many other countries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fd1f3610b9a8743a521688302c218a1\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: How important is very careful spending of taxpayer money when it comes to restraining inflation and any associated interest rate rises; or, to put it another way: does monetary policy still need friends?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9ad01793cc1711d78080ac467e57c1a\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, yes, monetary policy does need friends, and it is very important at this time that the Government controls what it can control. We can\u2019t control the trajectory for the conflict in the Middle East and therefore the global oil price and prices at the pump at home. What we can control is our own spending, and this Government is determined to take a responsible course in which we do not add fuel to the inflation fire, as was not the case in recent history under previous Governments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229c0aa94494ef56477c3d69f75c02e0ec\u0022\u003EPrime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002293d99a2980c5c3de8846a16629233ef4\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022 data-id=\u002201f552beb3d69cbd0f49fc1a95a323b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201f552beb3d69cbd0f49fc1a95a323b2\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition) (14:07)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EPrime Minister\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by all his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022 data-id=\u0022f85ea88c92ac42d0cbfe12e5431c6569\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f85ea88c92ac42d0cbfe12e5431c6569\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister) (14:07)\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238b1f95dac73575e2dab73927485bb63\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister continue to enjoy the unanimous support of National Party members of Parliament?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225299b4739428377ac4a112dd71134d1a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200d2a74c7d312a0cc25f5c909b72dc39\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why did he put confidence in him as leader of the National Party, and therefore as Prime Minister, to a vote of National Party MPs this morning if he was still confident that he enjoyed the confidence of all of them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e681de8ebf78d353b0ba5a5ba354d1db\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, just before we go any further, that is caucus business, not necessarily\u2014you could word it a different way, but as it was worded, it becomes caucus business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022186d2a8a234df90febcbdd59d0bbde96\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. If the Prime Minister won\u2019t share details of the vote of confidence in him as leader of the National Party, how can he assure the Governor-General that he continues to enjoy the confidence of this House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbdf3e06759a6d0d41568b683ea2c165\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, that\u2019s not a reasonable thing. You know that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226aa9415a8dc23831718b7f47ea1fd009\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022376f2801012cc0c26e306aa777768e33\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, hang on, I\u2019m speaking\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228fbe5022163a0ccd7a9e34cb4f8c959\u0022\u003EHon Member: \u003C/span\u003ENo, sit down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe1a5a85e54922fe3728b4ed720c2b30\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: One speaker only. Party caucuses\u2019 business is not a matter for Parliament or for question time, where scrutiny is on the Government. The question was put a different way; you could still put it a further way, but if you\u2019re referring in your question to a matter that is for the National Party caucus, or for any party\u2019s caucus in this House, then that is outside the spirit and standing order of question time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0f5c4e8c34865311c000637f36fad77\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. In order to be the Prime Minister, Christopher Luxon has to advise the Governor-General that he continues to enjoy the support of a majority of members of Parliament in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc152cfaeb49604bd9100760b401d88f\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: No, that\u2019s completely wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225af98f68b075e42ec216a0b8ddfff69d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: That is absolutely the constitutional position. [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d393ee6cfce7a5bc29589c47936d036b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: One person only speaks during a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223edcc3d958a02dd5227464636d12bc9a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Somebody cannot be the Prime Minister unless they can continue to advise the Governor-General that they enjoy the support of the House. If they have lost support of some of their own MPs, then the question of whether or not they enjoy the confidence of the House is a very legitimate one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b17a531fa755290d6c64902b25d018ad\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The point is, though, that the Prime Minister, at the time of the Government\u2019s formation, goes to tell the Governor-General that he is able, or she is able, to command the confidence of the House. Nothing has changed in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa90bed3f949918b83c73c68be5d4399\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003ECabinet Manual\u003C/span\u003E, which is the constitutional authority on these matters, is very clear that if the Prime Minister has lost the confidence of the majority of members of Parliament in the House, they have to advise the Governor-General of that. It is completely legitimate for the Opposition to question the Prime Minister as to whether or not that is the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022625f9d7c906a0f681aa759c1c84019a9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And in your questioning, your first question related to that, which did get through, and the answer from the Prime Minister was \u201CYes, absolutely.\u201D Now, no need to go further than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022467223f21edb15e25ee53bd00b0fe3cb\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why should the tens of thousands of New Zealanders who have lost jobs under his leadership have confidence in him when the job that he seems most committed to fighting for is his own?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285db39e06148eff7acefcf546358f6d7\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, in answer to the first part of the question, I\u2019d just say to the member that this is a Government that is doing everything it can to turn this economy around, to lift incomes, to create new jobs. If the member wants to get on board, support the Indian free-trade agreement. [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f00af4e208351ee672e985f15e024e76\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That noise is going to stop. We\u2019ve already got people away from the House; a few dozen more would probably make things go a bit smoother.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7337e5b2af094c3dc61556712de8d49\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why should New Zealanders have confidence in him as the Prime Minister when, on a day that business confidence has plummeted, the confidence he seems to be fighting for the most is the confidence of his own MPs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c006c893658e7b26be76f404e1fef96\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, because I\u2019d put my economic management record up against his any day of the week. This is a former Prime Minister who drove up spending 84 percent, who actually drove inflation to 32-year highs, 12 or 13 interest rate rises, slowed an economy up, and created unemployment. We are fixing his mess, and we are taking this country forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216ca82db058cc8e614c7a2aef05ab821\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why can\u2019t the Prime Minister answer questions about when they are going to secure the additional fuel that he promised New Zealanders he would have secured by yesterday\u2014or has he been distracted by other matters?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed8550c71aa980fa47c4b13cc9d874d6\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No, we\u2019re very focused on the fuel crisis, and that\u2019s what this Government is doing an exceptionally good job of managing, and I think New Zealanders understand that. We\u2019re working through commercial options; when we have that resolved, we\u2019ll come and talk about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acb605cf39fb8754dc9eee38cde27f85\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s going to run out of fuel first: New Zealand or his leadership?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227b4f060bd9e72deedcec0e03f937f93\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve seen reports of Labour scaremongering about our fuel situation, and I just think that\u2019s really inappropriate: for a Leader of the Opposition not to get in behind New Zealand and New Zealanders in a crisis. This country has sufficient supplies of fuel. We\u2019re managing the crisis to the very best of our ability and we\u2019re serving New Zealanders well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c61799fb98aa649ebd7a0958b8785838\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Government learnt anything from the experience of previous Governments in procuring COVID vaccines, where we somehow went from the front of the queue to the back of the OECD in record time, and how will those lessons be applied in responding to this crisis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9f5c380632a2e2affd719a78c15aa7d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2538e0fd13878a335aed4d265e6a3db\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Because this is a Government that\u2014[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222873a2c78f479e9d86c0a11b6997ef33\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a51fe66874b04074c86cf544f8ce9a9f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0331106bb4fbf3899573b64327aa2e0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Someone is going to leave shortly, because when there is a point of order called\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022540740642921e7350ab8e1302b352514\u0022\u003EHon Member: \u003C/span\u003EYes, he is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1776a645c3bb81551841f819e6e1181\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you\u2019re speaking now during a point of order. Let\u2019s all just calm down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e14f3f63c554f9c780ff694a5399871\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, I know you\u2019re very focused on ministerial responsibility today; there is no way that that question falls within the current Prime Minister\u2019s ministerial responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f8a11f5a0712e465682d8065cdf98ed\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is true. The question could have been asked a different way. We\u2019ll go to question No.\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271d8acf3a6f0476999f9d03b4ae70e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221beb697a7428f60423e88aa1dbdf2efd\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Sir, that question was about procurement, and it was seeking to contrast procurement practices of several years ago with procurement practices associated with a fuel buffer. There\u2019s no way that\u2019s out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296cd89612f952b2fca62fadd97bc72b3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s a very generous interpretation of what the question intended. I did say that the question could be asked in a different way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc50053767a8b5689da760962ffb5d32\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, well, can I?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221507213ef678d4be3543cd248c5113e1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, are you taking it or not? No. We\u2019ll go to question No. 3\u2014a supplementary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e4a909bb594a8fc3e7a6f876e4daf59\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Has the Government used learnings from past crises in its response to the current fuel shortage, and does that include the botched procurement\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f7c8fe1d15ee9ebb3ca91316b61f9f3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ac5ad25e6c524da707d23ca1c6bb7ad\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014of vaccines during COVID? [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226da841e53bb8b2a8653aa1c0ac446a8b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, he\u2019s got no responsibility for any of that. He can answer the first part of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288bcf06b4f6078b3cbab9b3937df6304\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, what I\u2019d say to the member is that we have learnt everything from the management of the last COVID pandemic. That was a complete and utter mistake, and we have learnt from rapid antigen test procurements, we\u2019ve learnt from vaccine procurements\u2014that\u2019s why this Government got organised early, that\u2019s why we\u2019re in constant contact with industry around fuel importers, and we\u2019re making sure that we learn the lessons and the mistakes from COVID, where debt was run up, where spending was out of control\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4490e8b8bfad9eca1e9be4080183550\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, that\u2019s enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231b8a07744e4c6afdadb6b10d6824627\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and New Zealanders\u2019 future was put at risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202b94da1de2107e51de202aa83f4a69d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Sticking to the same lines that got him into all this trouble!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223214c6f9b0bb928bb1f52f2e7acb39a9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, good. Just wait till the House is quiet and ready to hear your question\u2014Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dea57e0166e324061ded8ca357fed6ac\u0022\u003EPrime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022abb54a6c1f18738af66ab5d2dd73a68a\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd23348fdede23084ad6746605a9f1d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd23348fdede23084ad6746605a9f1d5\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green) (14:15)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EPrime Minister\u003C/span\u003E: \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EE tautoko ana ia i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero me ng\u0101 mahi katoa a t\u014Dna K\u0101wanatanga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003E[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EDoes he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022 data-id=\u00228b90ed70a011bfedb73b7bb763c56227\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b90ed70a011bfedb73b7bb763c56227\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister) (14:15)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e66e9313c081651f9239472b4a3839c\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister accept that the increasing frequency and severity of extreme weather this country is experiencing is driven by climate change?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228edef75bb3a621e874f86f00cd090070\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do believe there are climate change effects in the extreme weather we experience all around the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e56f6596b0955847f03d2c683b4740f\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Why did his Government cut funding for flood protection by 41\u00A0percent compared to the former Government? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a21cda998cc962e967dfc937f5b7e93\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve invested $200 million in flood protection. We\u2019ve invested a billion dollars in our first Budget on roads\u2014to build more resilience into what we\u2019re doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b64326d7722795280eaeca747f56cdd1\u0022\u003EHon Member: \u003C/span\u003ENot $6 billion!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287e377a89c19592ea09751859b394de2\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Why did his Government decide to cut flood protection funding, at a time when extreme weather is becoming more frequent and severe, by approximately half compared to the former Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5658526a2bb39ea25d5af21de35d778\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, this Government doesn\u2019t just talk words; we put action and investment to climate change. That\u2019s why this country, in the last quarter, has had less emissions produced than in any time since 2010. That\u2019s why we\u2019re investing in resilience in our roading network; that\u2019s why we\u2019re investing another $200\u00A0million into our flood protection. We\u2019re proud of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b84ea1618bf1e704f84b19f6fde14c32\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm that this Government is the first Government in New Zealand history to develop a national flood map which will map for the first time the areas of high natural hazard risk around the country, which will be taken into account in planning decisions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022826acccc3bb15a562b38fbde52a3176a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I can. I\u2019m very proud to say we\u2019ll have a national flood plan by the end of this year. We are the first Government to do so, and we are taking action and putting investment into climate change, not just words and bumper stickers and Post-it notes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f0e37817d0d9fef557ca2779e390108\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister agree with the Ministry for the Environment annual report that\u2014[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E] Point of order, Mr Speaker. I understood that questions were supposed to be heard in quiet, and we\u2019ve got one of the co - Deputy Prime Ministers going off at my side at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acde549612d4469cff5cd58201050b8d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is true, so no one will be speaking while you\u2019re asking your question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bed09c929a6b9cdf3afce0eca90e63fa\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Does the Prime Minister agree with the Ministry for the Environment\u2019s annual report that \u201CHaving a national flood map would enable council and homeowners to better prepare, to protect areas and homes from climate risks. However, officials have also emphasised that data alone is not sufficient. Additional measures around infrastructure and community support are needed to reduce exposure and vulnerability.\u201D; or is that why he decided to disestablish the Ministry for the Environment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4a722b5fac18bf935eaf4b31cb6c59c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I haven\u2019t read that report but I\u2019d just say we are very comfortable with the actions that we have taken, because we are the ones putting together a national flood plan, we are taking actions across this country to build resilience into everything we\u2019re doing. I\u2019d just say to you: the failed energy policy of the Labour-Greens Government caused an ungodly mess. We\u2019re not doing that; we\u2019re taking action, we\u2019re making investments, we\u2019re sorting it out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ade7a32e3b07587251df6f4219d79d3\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Why did his Government decide last year, in Cabinet, to delay all decisions on cost sharing and investment in climate adaptation until after the next election? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e82d3deff85255e7ff2e5c08be3f659\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We are determined to make sure we deliver on our climate change commitments\u2014that means net zero 2050; that means doing everything we can to deliver on our Paris agreements. But we are doing the practical things. We have reversed the oil and gas ban so we don\u2019t create an energy dry-year risk and high power bills for New Zealanders. If the member cares about it, get in behind the initiatives that we\u2019ve got. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c520d60c379fe47edd251e017a9991b1\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister understand that his Government has made decisions to delay any meaningful work on climate adaptation until after the election, or is hope now his plan? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022301d01277b6ab27b5796a44ada7b41a9\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No, look, I\u2019m proud of our record on what we\u2019re doing. We have a renewables boom under way in this country, and that\u2019s in part because of what we\u2019ve done to enable more renewables investment through our fast-track legislation. We have taken a strategic coal reserve behind Huntly; we are looking at extra strategic diesel reserves in Whang\u0101rei because we are determined that we are going to lower the cost of energy for New Zealanders so it\u2019s affordable and abundant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d03d99155f663ae5bdafcd4a94e7a99\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm that there is a suite of renewable energy projects going through the fast track, including just yesterday, after 20 years of delay, the Waitaha Run of River Hydro Scheme to make the West Coast more energy resilient and more renewable?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3992e066ccd3d7237223f482ea476dd\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly\u2014we have a number of renewable projects that are benefiting from the fast track, whether it be down in Southland or whether it be on the West Coast. Again, it\u2019s the point that I\u2019m making: a Labour-Greens Government just talks about it; we are the ones that put action and investment to the task.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d2d2f8fa1fde75e995af94a02d28ef14\u0022\u003EFinance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220364262515c8dc07778d93e4a2ec2e31\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022 data-id=\u002207aed7eb667165ac00274d19949bd0fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207aed7eb667165ac00274d19949bd0fc\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana) (14:20)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister of Finance\u003C/span\u003E: Has she received advice from the Treasury that inflation could peak above 7\u00A0percent this year; if not, what have they advised that inflation could peak at? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u0022443e36cb5a74c8c4bde75291d3a043d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022443e36cb5a74c8c4bde75291d3a043d4\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (14:20)\u003C/span\u003E: Treasury will produce a full set of economic forecasts alongside the Budget. I can also confirm that I will also, ahead of the Budget, share an update on the economic impacts of conflict in the Middle East. In the interim, Treasury has given me various scenarios, which they have stressed are not forecasts. These, instead, have been prepared at different times since the start of the conflict to look at the stylised impacts of the potential trajectory and scale of the conflict, noting the inherent uncertainty in these scenarios. These scenarios vary. One of them was based on an extreme set of assumptions, including escalating conflict leading to widespread closure of key transport routes, including the Red Sea; escalating strikes on regional energy production facilities, causing widespread, lasting damage; and, critically, oil prices averaging US$180 a barrel being sustained through quarter two and quarter three. I note that if all of these assumptions did come to pass, inflation could reach over 7 percent. However, it\u2019s worth noting that none of them have come to pass; in fact, oil prices in quarter two are currently US$95 a barrel, which is around half what was assumed in the stylised scenario.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282f39e1e799d9c58e893ff1417c7149a\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Why, then, did she not provide the stylised scenario of having over 7 percent inflation when she was asked on 1 April in this House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5ff24c07f991f94db841d84fff17833\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d have to go back and look at the \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EHansard\u003C/span\u003E, but as I recall them, the member\u2019s questions weren\u2019t very precise, and what I\u2019d stressed in answer to those questions was that I hadn\u2019t been presented with a forecast, which was the case. I\u2019m happily sharing the number, and I look forward to her listening in to my full economic update in the coming days. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022898ae0ef17c593b156593e919c4a3c32\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: What is her plan for the 70 percent of workers who haven\u2019t seen a wage increase above inflation in the last year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232ca9ebceeebfb82eac2848b68c917c7\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, first and foremost, my plan is to ensure that we are responding effectively to the global fuel crisis. The worst thing that could happen for New Zealand would be that we\u2019d run short of fuel. That\u2019s why we have worked as a Government to ensure that we are securing additional reserves of fuel, and we are also working internationally to ensure that fuel continues to flow to New Zealand and that we have in place a plan for escalating our response, including restraining demand, should that prove necessary to extend the reserves of fuel that we have. Beyond that, we are also taking great care that the steps that we take to address the very real issues that are occurring for New Zealanders as a result of fuel prices do not make things worse than they need otherwise be, and that would include adding unnecessary fuel to the inflation fire and further deepening the debt hole left to us by the last Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe1c7c1e1b136b4cd78c38c713d594e1\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Was Tayla Nasmith, from Nurturing Families in West Auckland, correct when she said of these very real issues that \u201Cin the past weeks or months, we might have been providing a couple of things for families, but now they\u2019re in such crisis that we\u2019re providing everything for a newborn, or clothing and school supplies for older kids, as well\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258485b504b1239f3c03e8a81e6296505\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the person that the member quotes is correct. The conflict in the Middle East is creating enormous hardship for people throughout the world. It has made the whole world poorer. It saddens me that New Zealand has not been insulated from the impacts of that, and I am very aware of the real impacts that it is having on our families and our people. That includes New Zealanders who are vulnerable, who have little income to begin with, and that is why the Government moved swiftly to introduce targeted, temporary support to working families who face high costs in supporting their children. We delivered that support, but did it in a way that adhered to the advice that economists the world over are giving, which is: \u201CDo not respond to this crisis in a way that adds to inflation and further weakens your fiscal sustainability.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228be1d6909d44c9b317831151deadb4fb\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: How can New Zealanders have any confidence in her, given that over the last two years, there are more people unemployed, the economy is smaller, and inflation continues to rise?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259174c379a4c2e96d67d50fce421bd56\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Because when people ask me whether they should have confidence in me, they need to compare themselves with the alternative, which is that member, and what she is promoting is more taxes, more spending, more borrowing, and more debt\u2014back to the bad old COVID days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dddb99a07f7dc98424303cf4db6d3725\u0022\u003EInfrastructure\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227378d2e37124760bfbff0ca46decaf7b\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u0022c36a83e99386c1aa3b75c4eebeee239a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c36a83e99386c1aa3b75c4eebeee239a\u0022\u003EMAUREEN PUGH (National\u2014West Coast-Tasman) (14:25)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister for Infrastructure\u003C/span\u003E: What updates has he seen on the fast-track approvals scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u0022be05e27cc728c1ca875525a0a7420e3d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be05e27cc728c1ca875525a0a7420e3d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister for Infrastructure) (14:26)\u003C/span\u003E: The fast-track scheme is going great guns, well behind this Government\u2019s growth agenda\u2014passed in 2024 and coming into effect in early 2025. Here we are in\u2014I suppose we\u2019re still early-ish in 2026; 18 projects across the country have already received approvals. Some have already started construction, like the extension at the Port of Auckland for the new cruise ship terminal. As I said in response to another question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271d8acf3a6f0476999f9d03b4ae70e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022742ebb8b870ce24e787f5e7353587a4d\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Mining.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220fd312097df31bbe50dcff71e5ef74d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014renewable energy and, indeed, Mr Jones, some mining projects, as well. [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b83c047e143fa6233da68cd70ab998c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just calm it, thank you. Just a minute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254470b159ff6a596fec390569194e459\u0022\u003EMaureen Pugh\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Which project was the latest to receive an approval under fast track?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022832761311a42364b89d46b05688dee60\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I know the member asking the question, the member for West Coast - Tasman, is very happy about the Waitaha Hydro project, approved on Monday by an expert panel. Twenty years in the making; fast track has meant it has received all its approvals in just five months. Westpower estimates the scheme will generate enough electricity for 12,000 homes and prevent\u2014Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u2014129,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide emissions annually. I\u2019m told this is equivalent to taking 69,000 cars off the road annually. This is what fast track delivers: jobs, growth, renewables, and energy resilience for the Coast.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022052551febf8a6e382d67570dc1bd03e0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Excellent, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227afff668905569dce3426fd89e5ef2b4\u0022\u003EMaureen Pugh\u003C/span\u003E: How many projects are currently utilising the benefits of the fast-track scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253e59aa0880964cb03d25fb65efaeacc\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: There are 48 referral applications that have been lodged and found compliant, and 47 substantive applications have been lodged and found complete. If they\u2019re all approved, these would authorise the construction of nearly 24,000 new houses, thousands of new retirement village units, and thousands of additional megawatts of new electricity generation. There are projects for housing and urban development, renewables, new infrastructure, mining, and quarrying, which this country needs if we are to build things again. New Zealanders are sick and tired of waiting year after year for consents to come for projects that the majority of reasonable people agree are needed. Fast track is making sure we can get on with the job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271d8acf3a6f0476999f9d03b4ae70e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ded0435604df533bfc6d0c498b85a9a4\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Dig, baby, dig!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261918097283d583043547370fc40b2b2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll remind people that interjections are meant to be rare and reasonable, and not sustained commentary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022280a2704abe52c7aa1b97bff93c8a1bf\u0022\u003EMaureen Pugh\u003C/span\u003E: How fast is fast track really going?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b15666273792dc638aa33f7c34c40360\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, listen up: the average number of working days for a substantive decision is 126. Waitaha Hydro was not approved after 20 years. There are wind farms around the country that took six years to be approved. Auckland port estimates their application to extend the wharf would have taken more than three years; it took five months and nine days. The next stages of Milldale were consented in five months and nine days, too; two years faster than the Resource Management Act (RMA). And this is a classic: Green Steel, a steel manufacturing plant in the Waikato using recycled steel, took seven months and 18 days. They say it would have taken six years under the RMA. These projects have been delivered quickly with environmental conditions to make sure the environment is protected. Fast track is working and the Opposition need to get on board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e431fdc92c830e8939eaf887075df327\u0022\u003EEnergy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022602fbf845b03f2e9b14a6a2f3664a0e3\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0d5298f3462aa635f2b65803be48e9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0d5298f3462aa635f2b65803be48e9a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram) (14:30)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister for Energy\u003C/span\u003E: When will a decision be made on whether to proceed with an LNG import terminal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022 data-id=\u00220bd7c05e356725853b5b48ce847aec60\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220bd7c05e356725853b5b48ce847aec60\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister for Energy) (14:30)\u003C/span\u003E: As the member will be aware, the Government made announcements in February and the liquefied natural gas (LNG) input terminal is progressing through a procurement process. Decisions will be made following that process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230c16602aa054bad2eee540337d32dbf\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: What specific price, cost-benefit ratio, or thresholds are being used to determine whether or not the LNG terminal stacks up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296419ec2869650a30b8210efe80bce2c\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the process we\u2019re going through is to make sure that we reduce power bills for New Zealanders, that we make sure we protect regional jobs, and we keep the lights on, unlike the previous Government\u2019s approach\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d8f0b7e23a9bfc29e137127d7037b8f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014no. That\u2019s enough. [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E] That\u2019s quite enough\u2014quite enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267f30b75812dc321426bb34f0acc3836\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. What alternative measures, if any, has he asked for advice on to provide dry-year electricity security if the LNG terminal does not proceed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228de3ea903cae182b638bb6b15ed787b9\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we\u2019re working through a procurement process, but on this side of the House we are focused on affordable electricity prices, keeping the lights on, and protecting jobs, and the reality is, you can\u2019t run an electricity system on hope that it will rain. That\u2019s the Opposition\u2019s strategy\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e47049d18b28df8ab1bb9ed1c61da993\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014no. No, sorry; no more of that, otherwise the Government will lose all the balance of its questions today. Answer the questions as a Minister, within the bounds of your responsibility; no attack on the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d29be45dfcff2d13b7951a3cfab228db\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I asked a very straight question. It was: what alternative\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022592d188ac95ece7611ba8b43aa2711e5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You can ask it again without losing one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5f30d7cb1c2ed7614bde8c897b44c6c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. What alternative measures, if any, has he asked for advice on to provide dry-year electricity security if the LNG terminal does not proceed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff8c4b6a3d4ea70fd3a9de87d313308c\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as the member will be aware, this Government is focused on security of electricity supply and we\u2019re taking a number of actions in order to achieve that, including making sure that we have the back-up generation needed. That\u2019s why we supported the heads of agreement between the gentailers last year; that\u2019s why we\u2019re supporting fast track. Ultimately, we are focused on ensuring that we protect jobs, keep the lights on, and make electricity more affordable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fcc6a1136b4ae1ebc3bc79941d7c1a2\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister confirming to the House that he has not asked for advice on alternative measures to LNG to provide dry-year back-up security?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c922ad2424cc45f6ff85da50b61e7237\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve asked for a range of advice from officials, including around how we ensure that we keep the lights on, that we protect regional jobs, and that we make electricity more affordable for New Zealanders. We are going through a procurement process when it comes to LNG and, ultimately, we are taking a number of steps as a Government to make sure we achieve these objectives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220838e5f9bac748d2a59aea595e5226a0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a21f35b4e0f913b4f9620bc35eec5731\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: What confidence can the Minister give businesses that LNG will reduce the risk of closures, job losses, deindustrialisation\u2014all of those things caused by energy insecurity and price volatility?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227299e2e6d1d34040ea829430d571b19f\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, unfortunately, after the previous Government made the decision to ban oil and gas exploration, we have seen a significant reduction in gas availability in New Zealand. It is reducing faster than was expected and that is damaging jobs, it is damaging industries across our country, and what we are focused on is making sure we do what\u2019s needed to protect those jobs, and we need to make sure we protect those industries. Now, we can only do that if we have the energy this country needs to be able to make that happen. I can tell the member: hope is not a strategy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248abd041dc38c3a62e69384b3a0efe44\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Simon Watts, who said, \u201CIf we don\u2019t have an LNG terminal, we haven\u2019t got a plan B for a dry year.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7bf9b70f4c879f3d056a28a9bd53c29\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, we are working through a process. Once that process is complete, decisions will be made and they\u2019ll be announced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d29aae678d05a5ea515f07143a790ed2\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: So, no plan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2127c6a0cbc8ebc981a6e39e8a604ce\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Question No. 7\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214fa690e5e8ae7a07341b0070b5b2042\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Not even hope?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3037da803393b1306a91ac8736cbd49\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a minute. Why do you have to keep on going? Take a supplementary if you need to, but it comes off your allocation. As much as you may enjoy your questions to the House, some of us don\u2019t after your allocations are over.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ef035615df0bc419a84a5ccef1b9f9f5\u0022\u003EEducation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ef3b600655d81125dee3677093872648\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c96149a439844ecfa86967f9caf5f50d\u0022 data-id=\u002243e60e468a3124c478cd0dcc5d3cde2b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c96149a439844ecfa86967f9caf5f50d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243e60e468a3124c478cd0dcc5d3cde2b\u0022\u003EKATIE NIMON (National\u2014Napier) (14:35)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister of Education\u003C/span\u003E: What recent announcement has she made in response to fuel cost pressures in education?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022 data-id=\u00229c350461dc99e6c3637879087dbf13f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c350461dc99e6c3637879087dbf13f8\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education) (14:35)\u003C/span\u003E: It is a priority for this Government to make sure that schools stay open and students are in school, engaged in their learning. Effective from this week, the relief teacher transport allowance has been increased from 37 cents to 83 cents for cars and 15 to 31 cents for motorbikes. To support schools with these costs, we\u2019re providing one-off cash grants of $2,500 to all schools with under 100 students. We\u2019ve increased the conveyance allowance by 30 percent to respond to fuel cost pressures, supporting around 5,000 eligible students. And we\u2019re replacing up to 70 diesel boilers in schools to reduce diesel dependency, boost resilience, and save around 600,000 litres of diesel per year. This is targeted, temporary, and timely in a package that provides support where it\u2019s needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c96149a439844ecfa86967f9caf5f50d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aef5b48315080fda45b33a669f01d072\u0022\u003EKatie Nimon\u003C/span\u003E: How will her announcement support staffing in rural areas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022415d307ad685337c374fdbefef877bf9\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Looking to the medium term, we\u2019re also investing $2.35\u00A0million per year to grow our workforce and help ensure rural and isolated schools have a strong pipeline of teachers. This Government\u2019s recently announced Go Rural programme offers student teachers $4,000 to cover the cost of undertaking a placement in a rural and isolated school. This has been hugely successful and oversubscribed, so yesterday I announced a further 87 places per year to support staffing in rural schools. We\u2019re also increasing the number of places available in the Government\u2019s Teacher Bonding Scheme by 50 places to 235 per year, supporting teachers with an additional $40,000 over five years, working in hard-to-staff schools, the majority of which are rural and isolated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c96149a439844ecfa86967f9caf5f50d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fddb0c661fa7bb44048f7c297eae3513\u0022\u003EKatie Nimon\u003C/span\u003E: How did schools contribute to the development of this response?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edfcef3b819138ba4d1166b7868718f6\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I directed the Ministry of Education to pick up the phone or personally visit every single school in New Zealand so that we can understand exactly what they\u2019re dealing with on the ground. Two issues that were consistently raised were access to relief teachers for our predominantly rural and isolated schools, because relief teachers can make choices about where they travel to work. The other was the conveyance allowance. This package directly responds to their concerns that were raised with the ministry, and we will continue to be in direct contact with schools to monitor the situation and respond where necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c96149a439844ecfa86967f9caf5f50d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd2fda33c4aaf3347c99eac5d20e6233\u0022\u003EKatie Nimon\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has she had from schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6b4b79315e8bd2ceed0040879b77223\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Within minutes of the announcement, I was contacted by a principal who said, \u201CThank you, particularly for the funding for relief teacher petrol. Having that extra to be able to pay relievers\u2019 travel will greatly help our situation.\u201D Another said thank you \u201Cfor the way the allowance has been allocated to support smaller and rural schools who are finding relief teachers can be a significant burden.\u201D And Andrew King, the president of the Rural Schools Leadership Association, said on RNZ this morning, \u201CIt\u2019s a really positive step with supporting schools, particularly our most isolated and smaller schools, with these rising costs.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222f022116a5e4cc8c5629dd40b07330fe\u0022\u003EEconomic Growth\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222860b37d960683619c2be5434b45d6b1\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022 data-id=\u00224716585805579d4cc42d2cb125bf4194\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224716585805579d4cc42d2cb125bf4194\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour) (14:38)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister for Economic Growth\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by her statement, \u201CI absolutely stand on the side of anyone who wants to work hard and get ahead\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u00228c5fb5f267bcf60af5d59111a41edaec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c5fb5f267bcf60af5d59111a41edaec\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister for Economic Growth) (14:38)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and that\u2019s what the Government is doing. This month, we\u2019ve delivered additional support to hard-working New Zealand families in a way that is timely, targeted, and temporary. From 7 April, around 143,000 working families began receiving an extra $50 a week through the in-work tax credit, with a further 14,000 families now eligible for an abated rate of that tax credit. We\u2019ve also acted to support those delivering essential services with a temporary 30 percent increase in mileage rates for home and community support workers to help offset rising fuel costs and ensure continuity of care. This is what standing on the side of people who work hard and want to get ahead looks like, and we are doing it responsibly; we are doing it in a way that does not add fuel to the inflation fire or adds excessively to debt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223403e465a13f1c7c5930f577ee5e3b0f\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: How can she claim to be \u201Con the side of those in the construction sector who wish to see more employment\u201D when we have seen this Government reach 20,000 fewer construction jobs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252398100b390fb1dd44e016d684721bc\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, because if you talk to those in the construction sector, they say one of the most important things for ensuring that there are high levels of construction activity is that interest rates are lower. On the watch of this Government, there have been successive interest rate reductions, whereas on the watch of the previous Government, they increased at such a rapid rate that it\u2019s meant that many construction projects fell over.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285fad12a454ea35938fa625bdbb9c6c7\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: If she truly is on the side of construction workers, then why are there 39,570 working-age jobseeker support clients as at the end of January 2026, who have declared construction, mining labourer, or trades worker as their previous occupation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227314f21496ae68bc3a195b446e8963ed\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Because the economy has been going through a challenging recovery following a period of excessively high inflation that was sustained outside of the target band for 33 months in a row, leading to a massive spike in interest rates and a very difficult economic recovery. This Government has been steering New Zealand out of that. It is also the case that we have been, like every country in the world, buffeted by the events in the Middle East, and we are working very hard to ensure that we strengthen our economy and its resilience to those global impacts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db5b8ecbab7fb9818366e4eab4604f22\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: How does her optimism help Jamie Lloyd, owner of a Wellington building company, who lost three months\u2019 worth of work due to soaring fuel prices and has described the construction industry here in Wellington as \u201Cbleak\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c7721d1d6497f778a3dd8e134b53eac\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, my thoughts absolutely go out to Jamie and others like him in the economy who are doing everything right. In this case, it sounds as if he\u2019s someone who\u2019s had the gumption to start his own business, to put his own money and time on the line, and to take risks. That is why I think it is so deeply, deeply regrettable when events such as those in the Middle East come to our shores, because it is the case that higher fuel prices are having a real impact on many. For our part, the Government is determined to ensure that we continue to have sufficient fuel supply in the country; that we mitigate the impacts of this conflict in ways that are responsible, temporary, and targeted; and that we continue to support the construction sector through the Government\u2019s ongoing investment in infrastructure projects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0f225e056d6470d312f65739af75271\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: How can she claim her Government is supporting the construction sector when there have already been record job losses and, now, her Government has no clear plan in a fuel crisis which is just causing increased uncertainty across the sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248e5a3b00393daf0305c42c2ba15d78b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I utterly reject the assertion made in the latter part of that question, and it\u2019s an assertion that the Labour Party dishonourably continue to make on social media. We have a plan, we have a fuel response plan, we have published that plan, we are taking all of the measures necessary. Last week, I had the opportunity to meet with leaders from across the world, many of whom affirmed that it looks like New Zealand is doing exactly the right things and commented that, in fact, our response of ensuring that we are able to set out in advance the phases of a response plan, that we have thought about how to secure additional reserves, and that we are taking temporary and timely economic steps is the right way to be doing things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225f3a03713ba7b167b2dd266512ba4204\u0022\u003ESocial Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002266349d73ecff604a312059ec74d61d95\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022 data-id=\u002280ed1b10691f59e604f13cc5f5d15d86\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280ed1b10691f59e604f13cc5f5d15d86\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai) (14:43)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister for Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E: Is the civil defence payment available for people in Wellington affected by the severe weather and flooding for which a state of emergency has been declared, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u00222ca54e20c816bc0535dd365385aefe6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ca54e20c816bc0535dd365385aefe6f\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment) (14:43)\u003C/span\u003E: I acknowledge that many people have been affected by the recent weather events in Wellington and will still be feeling unsettled as the clean-up continues in communities. Local defence teams take the lead after an event and are primarily responsible for helping people with their immediate needs. The provision of civil defence payments is a Ministry of Social Development (MSD) operational decision that is informed by assessments by civil defence, by MSD, and by local communities. MSD continues to monitor the situation closely and is engaged with local civil defence groups to understand community needs. Existing MSD services and support have, so far, been able to meet the needs of those impacted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261f4eb63f38dc479143ed508f0f77dd3\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: If, and when, the Wellington civil defence and emergency management group does make a formal request for the civil defence emergency payment for impacted Wellingtonians, will the Government grant it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022153861e69e33ee87d4bd7ad482a348fc\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in the answer to the primary question, there is an assessment by MSD, by local civil defence, and by local communities, and it is based on those assessments that MSD makes a decision about whether or not civil defence payments are necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250850c9b1a09f05db026ffef7b99a5a2\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: What support, if not the civil defence payment, is available to Wellingtonians from the Government for those people who may have lost bedding, accommodation, food, or other essentials in the severe weather and flooding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222431fecd7b7eed11a82ffce50ae78c8c\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: MSD has a range of supports and services available to New Zealanders when they face hardship, and they have been fielding inquiries and providing support as necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022688e7fde900d7f0854e9f45e5a9c8da1\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: If people go to access that support she just mentioned, will they be receiving, essentially, loans\u2014and, therefore, going into debt\u2014to access the support that they need to get essentials right now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e174458954f94ca240c7c8e33ea7c37\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, there\u2019s a range of support available to people who are affected by the weather events in Wellington. I would state, for the record of the House, if people are concerned about their ability, they should contact the MSD in the first instance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221937d169734a42e276369896f5675798\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Does she accept that the value of the civil defence payment for food or bedding hasn\u2019t changed since 2013, and, if so, will she increase the payment so that people can be properly supported when affected by these increasingly common extreme weather events?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291ebf513d08e54c7ff69ae76cc4f106a\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: The first step is that there is an assessment by civil defence, by local communities, and by MSD as to whether or not the civil defence payments are required. That is the first step.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef3135508a56aa08018bfd9345b8f35a\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Mr Speaker, the Minister made it very clear in all her answers that the civil defence payment may or may not be granted, based on an assessment. My question was about the value of the civil defence payment and about that not changing. The question of the value of it is separate to whether or not it will be granted. The Minister didn\u2019t address that aspect of my question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220763aa47ed466833e07d6496df7e717a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not sure that\u2019s entirely the Minister\u2019s responsibility, but she may wish to make a further comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e4903ebbd842cbbaeec7655359035a7\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as I said, the civil defence payments\u2014a decision hasn\u2019t been made to grant them in this first instance. Where people need accommodation assistance, they are adjusted annually with the annual general adjustment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022beac06c3659ca663fd5c3ddf641b6230\u0022\u003ETourism and Hospitality\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226264112f508e6cb2512d8530990b65bc\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c562dc86e974914b8878595e580f138\u0022 data-id=\u00220cfdc71ece59167759f02a3d1f02f2dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c562dc86e974914b8878595e580f138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220cfdc71ece59167759f02a3d1f02f2dc\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki) (14:47)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister for Tourism and Hospitality\u003C/span\u003E: What recent reports has she seen on tourism in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u0022f169ea94b87788da000a56396cc3969e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f169ea94b87788da000a56396cc3969e\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Tourism and Hospitality) (14:47)\u003C/span\u003E: Data released by Stats New Zealand last week shows that New Zealand\u2019s international visitor numbers continue to rise. Annual figures show that overseas visitor arrivals reached 3.58\u00A0million in the year to February 2026, which is an increase of 229,000 people on the previous year. This puts us at 92 percent of the pre-COVID levels. Over 408,000 overseas visitors chose to visit New Zealand in February 2016; that\u2019s over 53,000 more than the same time a year ago. Growing tourism is a key part of our Government\u2019s plan to fix the basics and build the future, and our progress shows that our plan is working.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c562dc86e974914b8878595e580f138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257e73e26e1edb6f13c6b57f6f3f5cf58\u0022\u003ECatherine Wedd\u003C/span\u003E: What markets have seen the strongest growth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229005c462cecc05e379a7cc9b202e2e44\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: We are seeing continued growth from our largest visitor market, Australia, with 1.54 million arrivals in the year to February, up 123,000 on the year prior. Chinese visitor arrivals are also up 41,700, an increase of 214 percent in February 2026 compared with the same month in 2025, as more Chinese visitors chose to take advantage of the visa waiver trial and experience New Zealand over Chinese New Year. As a country, we are seeing the flow-on of growth and confidence in our tourism and hospitality sector as more visitors are choosing New Zealand as their holiday destination. More international visitors means more customers for our businesses and, ultimately, more jobs being created across New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271d8acf3a6f0476999f9d03b4ae70e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285f1530e217d1e79c0b0d23cd29a3dca\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: The regions\u2014the regions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c562dc86e974914b8878595e580f138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220a4a2914ce6731468ef9711b97a5c8a\u0022\u003ECatherine Wedd\u003C/span\u003E: How are the Government\u2019s visa changes impacting visitor number?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b238b5af68173eccd0b8b9cb6e42065\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: A visa waiver trial that allows eligible visitors from China and the Pacific to travel to New Zealand from Australia with a New Zealand Electronic Travel Authority rather than a visa is making a difference. In December, we announced that 13,000 Chinese and Pacific travellers had already visited, with 24,000 total requests approved; that number is now at almost 67,000 visits. With an average visitor spend of $5,300 for Chinese visitors, that\u2019s an estimated economic injection of almost $350 million for Kiwi businesses from those who have visited, with Chinese visitors making up around 65,946 of the visits on this new pathway. This visitor spending is directly going into local businesses and, Mr Shane Jones, the regions\u2014that includes shops, eateries, accommodation, and transport. This is spending that might otherwise not have happened without this trial.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c562dc86e974914b8878595e580f138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b67f8b210e8bf859ae6146f144314367\u0022\u003ECatherine Wedd\u003C/span\u003E: What commentary has she seen on these reports?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed0d2acfa3a946677fb7eecd9427eda8\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Travel and Tour World says: \u201CAustralia has overtaken [key markets] to lead New Zealand\u2019s historic tourism surge.\u201D and \u201CNew Zealand\u2019s strategic Government policies \u2026 have played a pivotal role in attracting these record numbers.\u201D Otago Peninsula Trust Ecotourism Manager Hoani Langsbury said: \u201CWe\u2019ve had reasonably solid Chinese visitor numbers through December, January, and February. It is exciting for us because Chinese visitors account for 6 percent to 8 percent of our business.\u201D ASB economist Wesley Tanuvasa has said: \u201CInbound tourism remains strong. Having more of the tourism increase driven by the Chinese cohort, who are bigger spenders per day, should support growth even if [just for] a seasonal boost.\u201D Tourism is critical to our economy, and our investments will help deliver lasting benefits for communities and businesses from one end of New Zealand to the other.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220f8b265c0e46719e279193849ef97ba6\u0022\u003EScience, Innovation and Technology\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002200696e79df0897799d6f218e36399caa\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e641dc4bf8aa41b0bd8a29676c8ba9a6\u0022 data-id=\u00226b8b6ae62a0de32c8792034bd6913927\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e641dc4bf8aa41b0bd8a29676c8ba9a6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b8b6ae62a0de32c8792034bd6913927\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East) (14:51)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister for Science, Innovation and Technology\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by her reported statement that science and innovation are a core part of the Government\u2019s plan to lift productivity, support high-value jobs, and expand the economy, when about 700 jobs in the science sector have been lost since 2024?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1a4db3ffbc28d6aa050f169b3aa70ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1a4db3ffbc28d6aa050f169b3aa70ca\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Science, Innovation and Technology) (14:51)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Science and innovation are a core part of our plan to lift productivity, support high-value jobs, and build the future by growing the economy. I note that the Stats New Zealand Research and Development Survey shows that employment in the sector increased from 28,200 roles in 2022 to 30,600 roles in 2024, with most of that growth in the private sector, which is, actually, where most R \u0026amp; D investment is made. Budget 2025 committed more than $1.8 billion to science and innovation, and our reforms are deliberately focused on maximising the value of public investment in science and building a more dynamic system that can respond to national priorities, keep pace with technological change, lift productivity, and, most importantly, support higher-value jobs across the economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e46c1330ed24bae3bf13cd2433662e9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is an exceptionally long answer. I would suggest that you edit the balance of your responses substantially.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e641dc4bf8aa41b0bd8a29676c8ba9a6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f9c13e4983db86cae2fa79548043d1a\u0022\u003EReuben Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Prime Minister\u2019s Science, Innovation and Technology Advisory Council proposal to cut 22\u00A0percent from primary industries and bioeconomy research\u2014a sector forecast to deliver a record $62 billion in exports this year\u2014lift productivity, support high-value jobs, and expand the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baa5053afbb96144bb847de08c78efcd\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, it isn\u2019t a cut; it is a reallocation of funding to the Advanced Technology Institute. I\u2019d like to refer to a \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EFarmer\u2019s Weekly\u003C/span\u003E article from 7\u00A0April, where the AgriTechNZ CEO Brendan O\u2019Connell said he welcomes the shift in focus to technology and science funding\u2014describing the recognition of technology as a distinct research pillar as a defining moment. I quote from Mr O\u2019Connell: \u201CThe idea, a significant part of our R \u0026amp; D should be in new tech and be applied, is a good message to send. This is where the wealth generation will be for both the agri and the tech sector.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e641dc4bf8aa41b0bd8a29676c8ba9a6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022487248f65b342f0676f0e4fb58da8fb7\u0022\u003EReuben Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Why, then, is there no publicly available workforce strategy to retain or replace the scientists being made redundant?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281a271d041762d7546aeab593c1de6d1\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, of course, the focus is on ensuring that we have a strong science and innovation sector, which engages with industry, to ensure that productivity and growth in our economy occurs because two-thirds of the R \u0026amp; D that happens in this country happens with our businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e641dc4bf8aa41b0bd8a29676c8ba9a6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225160cef050b91aa346e001be8cf224d\u0022\u003EReuben Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Does cutting roles in hazard-monitoring teams risk degrading services\u2014[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfdc7bf2a885e1a429494c7b375cf9c6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Whoa\u2014whoa, whoa. Questions have got to be heard in silence. Start again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e641dc4bf8aa41b0bd8a29676c8ba9a6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfca756945e52af03edf1e6ffd6cd3f0\u0022\u003EReuben Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Does cutting roles in hazard-monitoring teams risk degrading services that directly protect New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7461d1af827b98796e85d8a14e243a3\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: We are very focused on ensuring that the critical work that is done in weather forecasting and climate research continues. We\u2019re bringing NIWA and MetService together in Earth Sciences so that we can get efficiencies and ensure that we reinvest in improvements to our climate science and our weather forecasting capabilities. We need to ensure that our funding is focused on those front-line scientists doing the research.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e641dc4bf8aa41b0bd8a29676c8ba9a6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229938f1e1b17ac0db123ac2cb1784d0a6\u0022\u003EReuben Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: What assurances, then, can she give to the former Earth Sciences New Zealand geohazard analyst who now works in Italy and said he \u201Chopes that a new Government would address these issues with science funding, and I could come back to a New Zealand with a strong science funding system in place\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294cd4c3eb4a13a8f7767e691a077b750\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the reforms we are undertaking are absolutely focused on ensuring we have a strong science, innovation, and technology sector. Look, I realise that change is never easy for those that are directly affected by it, but we are ensuring that our public research organisations, our PROs, are financially resilient and are focused and are putting their attention to the priority areas that they should be that will ensure our economy is strong and grows.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229f01b2f388df0e86e88f49f23277efc2\u0022\u003EJustice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b4affe50e7c0489ab8401bd6c6f25445\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022 data-id=\u002261d4ccc80f886433ad9213b11e5a2eb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261d4ccc80f886433ad9213b11e5a2eb6\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS (Te Tai Tonga) (14:57)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister of Justice\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree that Te Tiriti o Waitangi is the founding document of our contemporary nation of Aotearoa New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u00224f0bd7ae98925c0ade5c104d7b2bae36\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f0bd7ae98925c0ade5c104d7b2bae36\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice) (14:57)\u003C/span\u003E: I agree that the Treaty of Waitangi, Te Tiriti o Waitangi, in its two languages was the document signed at the founding of our contemporary nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbd22a07659ea78058d2f067f8f131dc\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u003C/span\u003E: What steps has the Minister taken to ensure that Te Tiriti - based rights of M\u0101ori in the justice system are not adversely affected by the Government\u2019s intention to review, amend, and repeal Te Tiriti clauses in legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022260101c79d6f01432d1b9fee91ea2d3b\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as part of the coalition agreement with New Zealand First, we as a Government sought to try and bring a bit of order to the 28 or so pieces of legislation that refer the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi and a host of arrangements\u2014sometimes \u201Cgive effect to\u201D, sometimes \u201Chave regard to\u201D, sometimes \u201Chonour\u201D, sometimes \u201Ctake account\u201D, and sometimes referring to \u201Cthe Treaty\u201D, sometimes to \u201CTe Tiriti\u201D; a whole host of things. We set a group up to bring some coherency to that, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022610512317b01551592f90158e1104743\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u003C/span\u003E: Will he champion a suspension of the review until meaningful consultation on the potential impacts on M\u0101ori Te Tiriti - based rights in justice has been investigated and a review process that both Te Tiriti partners are happy with can be implemented; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e21e4a26241a809b4fc734584440de3\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, of course, as we speak, there is consultation going on on the Cabinet decisions. When the legislation is introduced in the House, it will then go off to a select committee, and all New Zealanders, including M\u0101ori, will have the opportunity to have their say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e28e63734c110d87a5b2da9d865696da\u0022\u003EOral Questions to Members\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fc3ea8ddbc41a0e4f376a38685723ea5\u0022\u003EJustice Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022803de82ab8b385d3eba26f66e55de86f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022 data-id=\u0022016d3d6cbc2ec9773d27530ccff6531c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022016d3d6cbc2ec9773d27530ccff6531c\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central) (14:59)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EChairperson of the Justice Committee\u003C/span\u003E: Why did he announce a submission period of four weeks on the Trespass (Specified Retail Premises and Other Matters) Amendment Bill after first setting a submission period of six weeks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227b3ebe24438640afbed0da464f9b88bc\u0022 data-id=\u0022a70d4b69351f92ce56ca7ebeda4ce9ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b3ebe24438640afbed0da464f9b88bc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a70d4b69351f92ce56ca7ebeda4ce9ba\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Chairperson of the Justice Committee) (14:59)\u003C/span\u003E: As Dr Duncan Webb was briefed on 10 April, I\u2019d just reiterate that the bill was referred to the Justice Committee on Thursday, 2 April, just prior to the two-week Easter recess. I instructed the clerk of the committee to call for submissions with a closing date proportional to the report-back date. By convention, a six-week call for submission corresponds to a six-month report back, or four weeks for a four-month report back. The clerk of the committee originally understood it to be a six-month report back and so issued a submission for the six-week period. However, shortly after the Easter break, it came to his attention that the report back was, in fact, only a four-month report back, and he contacted me and, on that basis, I instructed him to call for submissions proportional to the report-back date, which, in effect, is the four weeks. We will, of course, be confirming this at Thursday\u2019s meeting of the Justice Committee, and I look forward to the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223de8cf17623f981ca1799d6e0bda0b8d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary. [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285dd3be604b5cca8e94948fdbae8e740\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Duncan Webb, and nobody else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237da65a261bdaf1a6fc7798cf9078a60\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Why did he call for submissions for the shortened period of four weeks when Speaker\u2019s ruling 117/1 states that \u201Ca committee or chairperson should generally allow a minimum of six weeks\u201D and there are no exceptional circumstances in this case, given the four-month referral by the House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b3ebe24438640afbed0da464f9b88bc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236b40f0e246e7c78fce6e799ea23e13f\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: I have to dispute what the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s just stated, because under the Speaker\u2019s rulings the committee chair can call for a submission period proportional to the report back. I know that the committee clerk actually spoke to the Speaker about this issue, and I\u2019m fully, as the chair of the committee, entitled to do this under the power of the committee and under the Speaker\u2019s ruling. But as I said before, I\u2019m looking forward to confirming this at this Thursday\u2019s meeting, and I look forward to the helpful comments from the Hon Dr Duncan Webb.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afc52b71bd73764a4e15e89bf5d25a44\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Appropriation (2024/25 Confirmation and Validation) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002245e37b541f2199c37202fe175c85d0cc\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022059990a023c5229f65b28c782f4af9cc\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2024/25 Confirmation and Validation) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226cf1aaea21e4ca62e534d2b68fa83235\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u2014Annual Review Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8c61c4b4a5313eaa2ed13f88285c942\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The House is in committee on the Appropriation (2024/25 Confirmation and Validation) Bill. This is the debate on the financial position of the Government and the annual reviews of departments, Offices of Parliament, Crown entities, public organisations, and State enterprises, as reported on by select committees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis is a 10-hour debate. The time for this debate has been allocated to parties on a proportional basis. New Zealand National has three hours, 59 minutes; New Zealand Labour has two hours, 46 minutes; the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand has one hour, 13 minutes; ACT New Zealand has 54 minutes; New Zealand First has 39 minutes; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori has 24 minutes; T\u0101kuta Ferris has five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFollowing a Business Committee determination, the annual review debate will be arranged by portfolio rather than sector. Specific Ministers will be available each day to respond to specific portfolios. The Government has indicated that the Minister of Finance, the Minister of Transport, the Minister of Housing, the Minister of Health, the Minister of Education, and the Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety will be available today to respond to members\u2019 questions. Each debate will be led off by the chairperson or another member of the committee that considered annual reviews most closely related to the Minister\u2019s portfolios. The Minister of Finance is here first, for one hour, to respond to members\u2019 questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe question is that the report of the Finance and Expenditure Committee on the annual financial statements of the Government for the 2024-25 financial year be noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c59f26113dd0a73a3e8a34b0ecf9d1f1\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u2014Annual Review Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u002276c9377155301c19d65a812fc45312e6\u0022\u003EFinance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022784f4e929aed4ea6a05d1a10add6eccb\u0022 data-id=\u0022aae9ef401d8b77675ad90ff46c809757\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022784f4e929aed4ea6a05d1a10add6eccb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aae9ef401d8b77675ad90ff46c809757\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (Deputy Chairperson of the Finance and Expenditure Committee) (15:06)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I rise to speak to this annual review of the financial statements of the Government for the year ended 30 June 2025, as reported by the Finance and Expenditure Committee. These accounts matter because they tell New Zealanders plainly and transparently how the Crown is managing the public finances on their behalf. They show where revenue is coming from, where it is being spent, and the state of the Government\u2019s balance sheet at a time of economic constraint and ongoing pressure on households and businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFirst, on the operating position, the operating balance before gains and losses excluding ACC\u2014or OBEGALx\u2014was a deficit of $9.3 billion in 2024-25, compared with $8.8\u00A0billion the year before; including ACC, the deficit was $14 billion. These figures make clear that fiscal pressure remains real and persistent, and that returning the books to balance will take time and discipline, not quick fixes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETotal revenue increased modestly, up to $169.8 billion, up 1.5 percent. Around half of that increase came from tax revenue, reflecting limited economic growth and policy decisions such as income tax threshold changes. Other gains came from higher sales of goods and services, particularly electricity generation, underscoring how volatile and sector-specific revenue growth can be. At the same time, expenses rose faster than revenue, reaching $183.5 billion. Much of this growth was driven by indexed benefits and rising superannuation costs as our population ages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThese are not abstract numbers; they reflect long-term structural pressures that any responsible Government must plan for. Net core Crown debt rose to $182.2\u00A0billion. Importantly, however, debt has stabilised at 41.8 percent of GDP. For the first time in several years, it has not increased relative to the size of the economy. That stabilisation matters because it signals a turning point from unchecked growth and debt towards a more sustainable trajectory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe committee heard clearly from the Minister of Finance about the Government\u2019s overall fiscal strategy: reducing core Crown expenses as a share of GDP, targeting around 30 percent over time, and gradually reducing debt towards 40 percent of GDP. This is not about austerity for its own sake; it is about protecting the Government\u2019s ability to fund essential services like health, education, and superannuation, while restoring resilience to future shocks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe audit results provide further confidence. The Auditor-General issued an unmodified opinion confirming that the financial statements fairly represent the Government\u2019s financial position and comply with generally accepted accounting practice. While uncertainties remain around matters such as veterans\u2019 entitlements and ongoing litigation, the accounts are being prepared and scrutinised to a high standard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOn infrastructure, the Government has committed $61.8 billion over four years, with a further $13.2 billion signalled for future Budgets. The focus is increasingly on value for money, better sequencing, and actually getting projects delivered. Halving the average cost of building a classroom is a concrete example of what disciplined capital management can achieve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe report also touches on climate commitments, the emissions trading scheme, and the M\u0101ori economy. The M\u0101ori economy continues to grow faster than the overall economy, and targeted funding remains in place for M\u0101ori health and education. On climate policy, the Government has reiterated its commitment to domestic emissions reductions while making clear that nationally determined contributions are not treated as legal financial liabilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETaken together, these financial statements show a Government operating in a constrained environment, making deliberate choices to stabilise the books, to protect core services, and to lay the groundwork for stronger growth as economic conditions improve. The challenge is now to maintain fiscal discipline while delivering real outcomes for New Zealanders in the midst of a really challenging environment in the current fuel crisis. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc4cce2dabaa88f77f8485d534196913\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc4cce2dabaa88f77f8485d534196913\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana) (15:10)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to acknowledge the deputy chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, Ryan Hamilton, for his summary of our report. I also want to acknowledge the previous chair, the now Hon Cameron Brewer, and to congratulate him on his promotion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFor the other side of the Chamber\u2014because we know that they\u2019re tired of voting\u2014I will say that members on this side of the Chamber will probably be putting forward two potential nominations, and one is Nancy Lu. For the first time, we believe that Nancy is very capable of being the chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, having come from PricewaterhouseCoopers and having been an auditor and an accountant. The second one, though\u2014which might surprise some members\u2014is Todd Stephenson. Todd is a very practical member on that select committee, and so we\u2019re just trying to toss up, but we just thought that we\u2019d give you a heads-up so that you can prepare for your votes tomorrow to make sure that you have your numbers lined up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETo the committee, I say that this is, of course, Budget 2024 and a previous review of the last financial year. For those who remember, Budget 2024 was when there were tax cuts for landlords and tobacco companies. There was support, supposedly, for Kiwi families and businesses, and that\u2019s where my first question to the Minister of Finance is: how many families have actually received the full $250 that was promised in Budget 2024? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAnother question is: how many actual individual families received the full $250? Before the election, the Minister promised that 130,000 families would benefit from FamilyBoost, and so my third question is: how many unique families have actually benefited from FamilyBoost, and will we ever know how many families actually received the full $250 that the Prime Minister promised that the average family would get? I\u2019m happy to continue the questioning so that the Minister can get some advice, because, quite clearly, she\u2019s still struggling to find the one family that received the full $250. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe go to the forecast that we received in Budget 2024. In the 2024 update, it was the first major update by this Government and, since then, growth has continually been downgraded or revised down over this time and the effects of the conflict in the Middle East have actually not yet been factored in. When we look at the books for the 2024 period and we look at what\u2019s happened since the books have been released in the Half Year Economic and Fiscal Update, we can see that growth has been reducing, and so the question that I have to the Minister is a very, very basic question: have economic forecasts got better or worse since Budget 2024? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u00220469d5956c8eebcab6616a114548258e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220469d5956c8eebcab6616a114548258e\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (15:13)\u003C/span\u003E: I, first, want to correct a statement which the member Barbara Edmonds made, I think, in error, and it would probably be an error that she wouldn\u2019t want to repeat. It has been something that has been repeated in this House many times, however. She has referred to tax cuts for tobacco companies. It is the case that in the Budget, forecasters estimated a reduction in tax revenue from the sale of cigarettes, and that reflected the fact that their view was that increasing the sale of heated tobacco products would mean fewer people would be smoking. What that number in the Budget numbers reflects is the Government progressing its strategy to see fewer people smoking, and to characterise that as a tax cut on cigarettes is, I think, misleading in a way that would be misleading and it is something that has been repeated by many people within that member\u2019s party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI want to emphasise again that the policy decision was to work to reduce the number of people smoking. Therefore, it is reflected in the Estimates that that is likely to occur and, therefore, that there would be a reduction in the revenue obtained by the Government from cigarette sales. I\u2019d say there would be many members of this House who would agree with me that a day on which we are receiving zero revenue from having zero people smoking is a good thing. But, actually, the Labour Party\u2019s position seems to be that they want more revenue from smoking, on the back of more people smoking. I do not think that is a responsible position. It\u2019s not our Government\u2019s policy to drive more people into smoking in order to fill the Government coffers, but it is, obviously, the corollary of the accusation that the member dishonourably just made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed1b7f5c83fd5009b399c1552d45323f\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fc14d892983f444d2da5073732b1e86\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, here we go!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d5e83955b592b057e27400c96657809\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: I get that the Minister\u2019s a little bit tense today, given the issues that have happened during the week\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd7f054df74566669b5dc602f64831ca\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: What is the point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b60030bfaf5b33de7d137eba3ad9f36\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Minister just likes to say that I\u2019m dishonourable, and made that comment. I take personal offence to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af81e6e23450fe84883af7a15dc9f959\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: A fair point of order. Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a84469f704d14a8e52a34fe66974fb2\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise and encourage the member to correct her statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d16d59bf0404d1ba84a5081be2103cf9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022 data-id=\u002253ac9e1c0a504e789b764b7ae31737d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253ac9e1c0a504e789b764b7ae31737d7\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana) (15:15)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s really clear that it\u2019s been a difficult day for the Minister of Finance\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222097d9fec7fe5894fe8aa9ca1f22b724\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Just stick to the annual reviews.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227763623806ccec15a769d82ebe716f9e\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: For example, the Minister of Finance saying tax cuts for cigarettes is, again, wrong. I said, \u201Ctax cuts for tobacco companies\u201D. To align the Minister with her comments that she just made: what about the smoke-free generation rules that your Government revoked and repealed? What was the economic impact on the health system as a result of the repealing of that particular piece of legislation, given the Minister\u2019s last comments? [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EMember sits\u003C/span\u003E] Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257124054ad0e1ff66c5cb7368ee406a8\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EE te M\u0101ngai?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224b6fa401c13044e99ca36861a556e3e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry, she called first\u2014the Hon Barbara Edmonds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022879a506a4b20f26f7c5c86d7d6b1d533\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s all right. Going to another particular area in relation to Budget 2024 and to the statements by the Minister of Finance, where there is a long, long list in the \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EHansard\u003C/span\u003E where she makes the quote \u201CThere will be no cut to front-line services.\u201D\u2014a long, long list within \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EHansard\u003C/span\u003E, where you\u2019ve heard the Minister of Finance, both in the media and in this House, talk about no cuts to front-line services. My question is: in Budget 2024, the actual proof is that we saw a lot of cuts to front-line services, so does the Minister stand by her statement that there will be no cuts to front-line services, is she confident that she kept that promise to New Zealanders, and have there been any front-line service cuts since Budget 2024?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u0022736f65c2c44a02b2d0ba7490b81413eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022736f65c2c44a02b2d0ba7490b81413eb\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (15:17)\u003C/span\u003E: As I have answered in this House\u2014probably as many times as the \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EHansard\u003C/span\u003E quotes that she\u2019s referring to\u2014definitions of \u201Cfront-line services\u201D tend to vary, with that member seeming to count absolutely everything the Government funds as a front-line service. It is the case that this Government has delivered $43\u00A0billion in savings in public expenditure across two Budgets. That has been a necessary step to help repair books left in tatters by the last Government. I want to acknowledge that making those savings is challenging, and it has involved difficult trade-offs from every Minister in our Government. What I would say to the member is that, if she wants to avoid a situation in which debt escalates for ever and in which New Zealanders need to be taxed more, making those sorts of savings is necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIn terms of our investment in front-line services, we have, across all of our Budget Policy Statements, emphasised areas that we will focus additional expenditure in. I think they reflect the priorities of New Zealanders. They are health, where we have committed increases in funding for front-line health services above and beyond population and inflation pressures. They are education, where we have made significant investments, including the biggest investment ever in additional resources for children with additional needs. They have included investments in law and order, where not only have we put investments in hiring more front-line officers but we have ensured that there is more funding available to the Police and the justice system so that we can have sentences that reflect the gravity of some crimes. We\u2019ve also ensured, in each Budget, that we\u2019ve invested more in the public infrastructure on which New Zealanders depend. We have stood by the words I\u2019ve used in this House, which is a focus on the front-line services that New Zealanders care about, while also delivering the prudent savings that are clearly necessary if we\u2019re not going to leave the books in the tatters that the last lot did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022 data-id=\u002231ec3603543cf1c26449da527c121145\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231ec3603543cf1c26449da527c121145\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green) (15:19)\u003C/span\u003E: \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EE te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare\u003C/span\u003E. I just want to take us back to the hearings that we initially had about these Budget proposals with the Minister of Finance. She may recall that, in the Finance and Expenditure Committee, I asked her questions about her intention, as laid out, to crunch the size of Government spending substantially in record time. I asked her, at that point in time, about the billions of dollars she was intent on sucking out of the economy here in Aotearoa New Zealand and if that gap would end up being filled by the private sector. I don\u2019t believe she really answered that question at that time, and instead she referred to how a Government Budget was akin to a household budget\u2014a longstanding metaphor which has been proven incorrect time and time again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe did, in fact, end up seeing that the private sector didn\u2019t fill that gap. In fact, the Government ended up, through its fiscal strategy, kneecapping the very growth and productivity that it so frequently likes to crow about. I\u2019d just like to put that question to the Minister again: if, looking back, she believes that the Government\u2019s decision to suck billions of dollars of investment out of the economy was ultimately filled by the private sector, because what we\u2019ve seen in reality is that it wasn\u2019t. We\u2019ve ended up with record-high unemployment\u2014the highest in 10 years. We\u2019ve also ended up with, by some figures, 15,000 construction sector jobs lost, and, obviously, as we all well know, this Government waving goodbye to the 200-plus New Zealanders leaving the country every single day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI also just want to pick up on some of the comments from the deputy chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, who spoke about how this Budget apparently set the scene for a more resilient country. In fact, the reality as borne out right now, is this capital city is in the midst of a state of emergency\u2014a climate change - charged weather event\u2014we are seeing the reality of this Government\u2019s slashing of spending and investment in resilience laid bare for all to see. To give some context to what I\u2019m talking about here, IAG said, in their natural hazards - related claims report\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201COver a 15-year timeline, a storm typically affected parts of the country \u2026 every 19 days. In the last 12 months, that frequency has more than doubled to once every eight days, making storms a near weekly occurrence.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis is important to contextualise with regard to the questions that I put to our Prime Minister in question time just today, where he affirmed that it his view and the Government\u2019s view\u2014thankfully we can at least agree on this very basic fact\u2014that climate change is increasing the severity and the frequency of the extreme weather that we are currently seeing. Yet he didn\u2019t address at all the fact that this Government knows\u2014the Prime Minister knows, and the Minister of Finance definitely knows, and we have reflected in an Official Information Act response from the Ministry for the Environment\u2014that they have made decisions to cut flood protection funding across this country by 41 percent compared to the former Government. The only thing that they can claim in the space of climate adaptation\u2014which, notably, they all also know\u2014is that, per a Cabinet decision in, I believe, October last year, they delayed any meaningful decisions on cost sharing with regard to climate adaptation, therefore kicking the can further and further down the road.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe question I want to ask the Prime Minister\u2014sorry, the Minister of Finance; a slip of the tongue makes sense in the context of today\u2019s political events!\u2014is about that resilience. On top of that point of reflection, on the sucking of all of that investment out of the economy, and the flow-on effects with regard to business confidence in investment and otherwise, is that point of resilience. The Government has decided to also cut, and did in its initial Budget, $6 billion from climate emergency response funding and from resilience\u2014from the likes of that flood protection and otherwise\u2014which has not only undermined our ability to mitigate climate-changing emissions but also to adapt to the impacts of climate change. In turn, that has led to a statement from Fitch, one of the credit ratings agencies that the Minister often likes to cite, stating in its warning about a potential credit downgrade on its way, that\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CThe Iran war poses some risks to the New Zealand economy given its substantial dependence on energy imports.\u201D Can the Minister of Finance clearly articulate for us how exactly this Government has apparently increased our resilience while actively subsidising new fossil fuel production and cutting investment in renewable energy generation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u002250c0a7d795aef7413b0c62e56183e8a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250c0a7d795aef7413b0c62e56183e8a5\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (15:24)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I want to take us back to the first set of questions, which were revealing of deep problems in that member Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u2019s economic analysis\u2014in fact, deep problems in the economic analysis of the entire socialist project and agenda which her party represents\u2014in which she described the Government\u2019s spending less as \u201Csucking money out of the economy\u201D. Now, I want to be clear with the member about where the money that Government spends comes from: it comes from the tax that working New Zealanders pay. What the member is actually saying is that, in her book, the way to grow an economy is to suck more money out of the pockets of working people. I stand proudly on the side of the House that recognises that that is no recipe for growth, job creation, and prosperity; that is a recipe for making people poorer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m very proud to be on the side of the House that took the judicious measure of adjusting tax brackets for the inflation that had robbed too many New Zealanders of their hard-earned cash. It is of deep concern to me that members on the other side of the House, while claiming they care about the cost of living faced by New Zealanders, still oppose the personal income tax reduction our Government delivered that has ensured New Zealand families are much better off financially each week when they get paid\u2014and yet that side of the House would take that money back off them in a second and would waste it on their own pet projects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn the second part of the question, the member remembered she\u2019s not just a socialist, she\u2019s also a Green, and asked about the environment. It is the case that this Government has been intent on ensuring New Zealand has increased resilience, in part by promoting more investment in renewable electricity generation. In answer to the member\u2019s question, one of the most important things we have done is introduce the fast-track legislation, which she opposes, which has seen multiple renewable energy projects\u2014solar farms, wind farms, and, today, a project on the West Coast\u2014and more investment in renewable energy, projects that would otherwise have been caught up in the bureaucratic processes that member\u2019s party prefers. We stand on the side of the electrification of New Zealand, investing in a charging network for electric vehicles, and ensuring that we don\u2019t just talk about renewable energy; we make sure that it can get through the red tape and it can get done\u2014which is what fast track has been all about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022 data-id=\u00228331d05e8934789a1357d93e7d0a28f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228331d05e8934789a1357d93e7d0a28f2\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram) (15:27)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank the Minister of Finance for answering some of the questions put forward by colleagues. Given the Minister\u2019s proclaimed concern for working families and their pockets, we\u2019d like an answer, that we\u2019re still waiting for, to the question: \u201CHow many families have received the full $250 a fortnight that was promised to them?\u201D, in terms of that relief that the Hon Barbara Edmonds asked about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe other set of questions I\u2019d like to put to the Minister\u2014I\u2019ll rattle through a couple of them in this contribution\u2014are on the perennial question that the Finance and Expenditure Committee concern themselves with, and that is how it is that we account for our climate obligations. I\u2019m only sorry that the Hon Dr Deborah Russell isn\u2019t here to take this call on the accounting principles and constructive obligations and the way that it should appear in the Crown accounts. We heard from Treasury that they will be looking at a range of decisions that the Government will make, in making that decision about whether that would transfer from a fiscal liability to a constructive obligation on the Government. I\u2019d be keen to hear from the Minister what she considers to be those trigger points, in terms of Government decision-making, to see that liability needing to be laid bare in the Crown accounts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe did hear from Treasury that they won\u2019t be doing an update on the 2023 joint work that was done with the Ministry for the Environment, which was looking at the economic and fiscal assessment that was done, and that laid out what the liability for New Zealand would be, given its current emissions track. This was last done in 2023, and this Government has not had such a piece of work done. We\u2019ve heard that won\u2019t be done before this year\u2019s Budget, but the question is: why won\u2019t that work be done before this year\u2019s Budget? It is an important piece of our economic understanding. Treasury did say that they could put it as part of the Pre-election Economic and Fiscal Update\u2014or PREFU. My question to the Minister is: why not the Budget, but PREFU? That seems to be an anomaly, that you\u2019re casting a Budget in that year, when you\u2019re intending to produce that information in only a few short months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe other question I have: the Minister seems vitally concerned about the electrification of the economy\u2014of course, the fast track of electricity projects is something that had started under Labour, and indeed many that are going through the fast track\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e5f60e7f061bc8214d3021ecc1ed54b\u0022\u003EHon Members: \u003C/span\u003EHa, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd9addbb74fd0862c12da9537fa6970e\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: There were many, many, many projects that went through fast-track processes under Labour, and of course many of the ones that are progressing now actually had begun\u2014if the Minister realises how long it takes to put together a renewable energy process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EOf course, we\u2019re talking about Budget 2024, and Budget 2024 cut $178 million from the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority\u2019s budget. This was money that was largely to reduce household electricity bills, in the form of doing things like the electrification of households, having hot-water heat pumps, so we could really take pressure off families. In a year that the Government had $790 million - odd in tax cuts for landlords, $178 million was sliced from initiatives that could have directly helped families with the cost of living. It could have helped them with their power bills. Has the Minister since received any other advice from Ministers across the Government about what we might have to do to help families afford to heat their homes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1c04c31baddf7c99ff93255487cb475\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1c04c31baddf7c99ff93255487cb475\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (15:31)\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the latter question, one of the bits of advice I\u2019ve had is that if the member the Hon Dr Megan Woods hadn\u2019t banned oil and gas exploration for New Zealand, we would most likely have more sufficient gas supply and not the acute electricity price increases that we were left with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIn terms of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022125a0e64b6dc583e203de74c25152f67\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: No one believes you when you say that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd4b0177f6e31adcf413d70ae7384ec5\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: She just said that no one believes me when I say that. What she believes is that banning oil and gas exploration was good for New Zealand\u2019s fuel resilience, cutting off the very source of domestically produced gas that, right now, would mean we were more resilient.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIn answer to the other part of the member\u2019s speech, I can confirm that 87,444 unique families have received the FamilyBoost childcare tax credit so far, and I do want to thank the member and her party for supporting the most recent legislation, which expanded that scheme and which has seen that, in the December quarter, at least 11,068 families received at least $150 a fortnight. in answer to the question that the member asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0f267537b733e0753230f5c724b46c8\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, $150?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246f8bde5eca7e3778af311e11b5056aa\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: You promised 21,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf1859f17bafa26cbe670ac3600b95f9\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: And here they quibble\u2014here they quibble. I think the message I take from it is that they would actually take that money away from those New Zealand families and the people who have been very, very appreciative, at a time of life that\u2019s very expensive, when you\u2019ve got young kids, big early childcare costs, mum and dad are both trying to work\u2014actually, that tax credit has been incredibly materially significant to many families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EFinally, in answer to the question about the constructive obligation for potentially paying international countries for our Paris obligation, our Government has taken the same advice from the Auditor-General and the Treasury that the member took when she was the Associate Minister of Finance, which is to recognise that there is no constructive obligation unless the Government commits that it will sign a cheque. I\u2019m proud that I haven\u2019t committed that I will be signing a cheque to send billions of dollars offshore, and if that member wants to take that position to the campaign trail, I\u2019d encourage her to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4db46e67137e4b6339db6a067e86086\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4db46e67137e4b6339db6a067e86086\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Finance) (15:33)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair, thank you. I note the Minister of Finance refers, to some disdain from the Opposition benches, to the oil and gas exploration ban of 2018. She was even challenged by a Labour member saying, \u201CNo one believes you.\u201D, which is not really good form in Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s the reason why they should believe the Minister. You see, there are people who say that a ban in 2018 can\u2019t possibly have led to a restriction in oil and gas availability today, because it takes 15 years for a new well\u2014and that is true\u2014but sometimes, you meet people who grab on to one fact and hold it so tightly they squeeze out any relevance it had. That is what\u2019s happened in this case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d1a2cf10161f3608e875ba84de1d12c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: As it relates to the year in review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1cc10b9e7983a13ba215d89c475430a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, Madam Chair. This Government is facing economic challenge in part because of that precise action. It is not because there are no new wells allowed; it\u2019s because of the old wells that don\u2019t produce. It\u2019s because people believe that somehow it just sort of pops out of the ground like a miracle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe difference is that some of us on this side of the House go out and meet the people that run the engineering shops, that put in place the infrastructure, that actually drill the wells, and that employ the people to keep those wells pumping and producing. When the Government of the day comes along and says, \u201CYou\u2019re out of here; you have no future in this country.\u201D, all those people leave. That also affects other statistics and other economic measures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI was in New Plymouth last week, and there are a lot of people there who still commute to Australia, where they\u2019re welcome to work. So long as that vote of no confidence, that banishment of a whole industry, a whole lot of people and their skills and their capital, is casting a long shadow over this country, it doesn\u2019t matter if there are any new wells, because they destroyed all the confidence required to keep producing in the old ones. That\u2019s a simple fact relevant to this debate that the other side can\u2019t quite grasp, but they hold on to it because it\u2019s one of the very few arguments they have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c10a446544c02bba44ad779c677ce769\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c10a446544c02bba44ad779c677ce769\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour) (15:36)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Now, the Minister of Finance has already mentioned our regional development, and I had a question just in relation to whether she felt that she had her priorities right. From many points of view, including on this side of the Chamber, there is a view that the Budget failed to keep people in work, particularly in the regions, with unemployment now expected to be even higher than forecast. If we look by region: in Northland, there are 2,200 fewer jobs there now; the Hawke\u2019s Bay, 9,400 fewer jobs; Taranaki, 6,300 fewer jobs; Tasman, Nelson, Marlborough, 2,600 fewer jobs; Southland, 4,200 fewer jobs. That\u2019s not taking into account the recent announcements from McCain and from Wattie\u2019s to shut down their factories that will be operating in the Hawke\u2019s Bay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is: did she get her priorities right in the Budget, given the record levels of job losses that New Zealanders have sustained right across the regions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022 data-id=\u002250024cca8cac82dc92a005635f76da18\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250024cca8cac82dc92a005635f76da18\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green) (15:37)\u003C/span\u003E: I just wanted to respond to a few of the points that the Minister of Finance made there, amongst the ad hominem attacks against me, particularly the points that I made about how, as we were having the discussions in the Finance and Expenditure Committee almost about two years ago when I spoke about the Government\u2019s intention to rapidly crunch the size of the economy and I said that it was sucking money out of the economy, the Minister then went on to wax lyrical about how this money comes from New Zealand taxpayers. I think we all know that. All Governments, of all stripes, tax and spend.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe fundamental kind of question here is about how we want to use our collective resources. The points that I am making\u2014the point that the Green Party is making\u2014is that you do not grow when you starve. That is the approach\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222381c56a9ef4e2d2a5ba094daf4e05bc\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: What is this, a lesson in plant biology?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eeabfe80db5ba92e9d7e44e5cf724223\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that this Government has taken to our economy. We said it two years ago when they first came to power and deployed the beginning of their fiscal strategy, which was, effectively, to start to starve our public services\u2014to then start a process by which we would see them fail and then, eventually, get to a point where they should say, \u201CHey, we should privatise that.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister are currently heckling at me about the fact that this is, apparently, socialism\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e25a2b12b1d13a873a9f8456eac31d09\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Yep, it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207e374e855b82b027029466e2e59ed6f\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014for us to say that what we want to do is\u2014God forbid\u2014believe that New Zealanders should have a guaranteed basic standard of living, that the Green Party puts forward a plan that is evidence based, where we show everybody the money for how we would fix the tax system, which currently sees those in the top\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9b9a40c52100732ea31ecea177f0e1c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Can the member come back to the 2024-25 year under review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022155d958640753e59802a56cf8167b26c\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair, I would love to. However, we are in a situation where we have a Minister of Finance who is actively attacking me\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c40ce29966e8e21f1f0f8b3ad87b436\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: No, just your socialist views.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022711c00d0aeb3b4bda0fa28a1c208dd33\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014for our proposals and stating that they are socialism. I think it is actually incredibly important for us to lay out exactly what those plans are. Those plans are to rebuild a country that this Government is currently proudly shredding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225f31122d915ec3ccd5f8a1fc62588af\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will come back to the review year, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223eaf2b7cbffdf08a07c0ad99fe7ad874\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: So, to the point that was raised by one of my colleagues with regard to the constructive liabilities under the Paris Agreement, I just really actually think it\u2019s important to spell this out\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271d8acf3a6f0476999f9d03b4ae70e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ae6e3fa8bae09bfeaefdc285cc61c5c\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Fiction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd19ee333b0b566daebcd91ae50fa1ef\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014as one of the Ministers of Cabinet currently yells out that the Paris Agreement is fiction. As that Minister of Cabinet yells out that this is fiction, we also have a Prime Minister who says that we are committed to meeting our obligations under the Paris Agreement. What that means is that we have to meet something called our nationally determined contributions, which former National Governments have signed us up to, and this one reaffirmed us to. Those nationally determined contributions rely on us reducing our emissions here at home, domestically, or paying other countries to reduce their emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe point that we are making here is that you cannot have two things be true in the instance of, on the one hand, saying that we are going to meet our nationally determined contributions under the Paris Agreement when the Ministry for the Environment, and Treasury, are making it abundantly clear, as of two years ago, that we cannot do that domestically, and then also say that we\u2019re not going to do offshore mitigation. Those two things do not logically marry. The Minister of Finance knows this. I know that she is an incredibly intelligent person, despite all of the things that she\u2019d like to say about me. I know that she knows you cannot, on the one hand, say you are going to meet our nationally determined contribution while also knowing that we cannot do that through domestic mitigation\u2014which this Government has also slashed\u2014and then not say that we are going to do that offshore mitigation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy basic fundamental question to the Minister, which I have not been able to get an answer out of her or any Government Minister on in the last two years, is: is this Government going to meet our entire nationally determined contribution under the Paris Agreement domestically or not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022 data-id=\u0022c21b0cd9ebd38182aff82f537fcc2bf3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c21b0cd9ebd38182aff82f537fcc2bf3\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana) (15:41)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to respond to the Minister of Finance in relation to some of the comments she made around FamilyBoost, because we still don\u2019t have the answer to the question of: how many of the families the Minister promised\u2014and Christopher Luxon promised\u2014$250 have actually received the full $250?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister of Finance likes to say that the Opposition and this side of the Chamber are just quibbling; we\u2019re not quibbling about being able to afford an ice cream at a movie theatre; what we are fighting for is the fact that so many New Zealanders are scraping by today, which is why our food banks have huge demand\u2014more than they have ever seen. That\u2019s why our financial capability budget service providers are struggling to help the families in need and they have huge wait-lists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt comes back to the promise that the Minister of Finance\u2014that Nicola Willis and Christopher Luxon\u2014made to everyday New Zealanders at Budget 2024, and at almost every election debate before that: that families were going to get, on average, $250. How many families have actually received that $250? Then, at Budget 2024, the Minister of Finance said that 21,000 families would get the full $250. Well, today, how does that math up? How does that math up with what the Minister said today, that 11,000 have got $150? We are fighting for every single one of those families to get what that Minister promised them: $250. How many families? Just looking for one, at least. How many families have received the full $250 that the Minister promised them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u0022b42bcceba204b2d7540b4b939e66ead6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b42bcceba204b2d7540b4b939e66ead6\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (15:43)\u003C/span\u003E: First of all, in answer to Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u2019s and, implicitly, the Labour Party\u2019s position\u2014which is, essentially, a view that says if only we had taxed people more in the past two years, if only we had borrowed more, everything would be better\u2014what I would say is that, actually, I think it would be the very reverse. If we had introduced the programme of capital gains taxes, wealth taxes, universal beneficiary increases, the economy would be a lot worse off, not least because some of the most productive investors in the country would have simply left and taken the jobs they create with them, but also because that would be an economy which actually punishes the work effort and entrepreneurialism which we need in order to prosper. To argue that we should be borrowing more in the same set of remarks in which Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick notes the Fitch report, which puts New Zealand on watch, saying that, actually, fiscal sustainability matters, is obviously inherently contradictory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn terms of Barbara Edmonds\u2019 rant: once again, she\u2019s been a bit loose, because, actually, the $150 I referred to in terms of the FamilyBoost payment is, of course, not the only tax reduction that hard-working families have received from our Government, is it? No, because what they also received was adjustments to the tax threshold through which they pay personal income tax, and a range of adjustments in the Working for Families scheme to target more support at working families, which means there are many families who will have received, through those reductions, $100 a week, which they could add on to the $150 they\u2019ve received through FamilyBoost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt is also wrong for the member to claim that I promised a certain number of people would get $250. I did not. What I said was that that was the maximum amount a family could receive as a result of our tax package. That remains true, because guess what we did! We delivered on every single one of those commitments that supported that $250 figure, which I am proud of and which I think that member should hang her head in shame about because she opposed every single one of those measures to ensure working families could have more cash in their bank accounts to meet the needs of them and their kids.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222c117f6511bc4b8fb6fdcf9c6133fb99\u0022 data-id=\u002257b263b2fc1128f6d08cf3e604cecbb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c117f6511bc4b8fb6fdcf9c6133fb99\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257b263b2fc1128f6d08cf3e604cecbb6\u0022\u003EDr DAVID WILSON (NZ First) (15:46)\u003C/span\u003E: What indicators were there prior to the war in Iran that the economy was in recovery mode?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u0022d16c35756ccca5d44915d22309969495\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d16c35756ccca5d44915d22309969495\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (15:46)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is one of those memories that I will have for ever: Treasury coming in to give me their preliminary forecasts for this year\u2019s Budget in exactly the same week that we watched the conflict in the Middle East take off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat they were able to share with me at that time was that the signs of an economic recovery had taken such hold\u2014in terms of business confidence, consumer confidence, investment intentions, and employment intentions\u2014that they were forecasting 3 percent growth for the coming year, which is an extremely healthy level of growth. They were forecasting lower unemployment. They were forecasting a return to balanced books. They were forecasting a lower debt track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat is yesterday; we\u2019re now in today. It is the case that the conflict in the Middle East will mean those forecasts aren\u2019t as good as they could have been, but it does endorse the position of this Government, which is that taking measures to address the underlying productivity challenge that we face is the right approach to strengthening and growing this economy while keeping discipline on the public finances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e641dc4bf8aa41b0bd8a29676c8ba9a6\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6eb94bfd9c9cb5f947cc2e040e4d8c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e641dc4bf8aa41b0bd8a29676c8ba9a6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6eb94bfd9c9cb5f947cc2e040e4d8c9\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East) (15:47)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Recently, I\u2019ve had the privilege of sitting on the select committee inquiry into online harm for young New Zealanders, and I won\u2019t go into great detail other than to say that there is a lot of it and that it is very real. My question to the Minister of Finance is pretty straightforward. It\u2019s really about the changes that she made to the Department of Internal Affairs\u2019 Digital Safety programme funding. Were those cuts or were those savings?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022 data-id=\u0022082677f7dde75ae1614c0d40aae6711e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022082677f7dde75ae1614c0d40aae6711e\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana) (15:48)\u003C/span\u003E: Just while the Minister of Finance is getting some advice around the Department of Internal Affairs\u2014was it \u201Ccuts\u201D or \u201Creprioritisations\u201D, or some other terminology, to the Digital Safety programme\u2014I actually want to ask about the State-owned enterprises.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ENow, State-owned enterprises were traversed a lot during the annual review with Treasury. A lot of members in the Finance and Expenditure Committee were quite concerned around and were trying to understand the parameters of that work. I just want to ask the Minister: has there been an update to the advice that she has received? How far along are Treasury in relation to that piece of work, and can she still assure Parliament\u2014because Treasury provided some form of assurance. They said the grey area is that sometimes Ministers will commission advice in good faith, thinking they can progress it through Cabinet, but for whatever set of reasons it will shift on to a party track. I just want to ask the Minister if she can assure the committee\u2014because Treasury tried to in the select committee\u2014that that work in relation to State-owned enterprises will not go along a party track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u00228d7cf0d7d1b73f7fd48cfbc7b4a1f1e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d7cf0d7d1b73f7fd48cfbc7b4a1f1e9\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (15:49)\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm that the State-owned enterprises (SOEs) work that public officials are working on is for a Government purpose. In terms of the advice I\u2019ve received around SOEs, one of the bits of advice I\u2019ve received is that the dividends we currently receive from SOEs are a very important support to our Budgets and our ability to invest more in education, health, and law and order. I have been advised that parties who proposed that they would take those dividends and, instead, invest them in other ways\u2014as that member has promoted\u2014would in fact be creating a significant hole in the Government finances. They would be taking hundreds of millions of dollars away from health, education, and other essential front-line services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ETo be fair, if parties promised they were going to use the dividends for one purpose and then they were going to fill that hole, they could fill that hole\u2014with more tax and more borrowing. So just front up on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc2ef38248a81b72119ce27e48c0ba05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc2ef38248a81b72119ce27e48c0ba05\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour) (15:50)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I\u2019m still interested to know: we know that the Minister of Finance has said things such as that she\u2019s wanting to create the conditions for jobs and that she\u2019s going for growth, and also things, like the economy, are stronger when more people are working. Well, I put it to her that there are 32,000 fewer jobs under her Government, and I still haven\u2019t heard a response as to the 9,400 people in Hawke\u2019s Bay who no longer have a job; the 6,300 people in Taranaki who don\u2019t have work; and in Tasman and Marlborough, the 2,600 there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI would like to understand why this approach has been taken that has actually enabled unemployment to grow, particularly at a time of a cost of living crisis, when we know Kiwis are already doing it tough, particularly in the regions. There seems to be absolutely no plan to help those industries, particularly in manufacturing, that have had significant impact from the bad choices that this Government has made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u0022d70ea4e7b82cf5d0e787547bc4cd63cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d70ea4e7b82cf5d0e787547bc4cd63cc\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (15:51)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s like that member the Hon Ginny Andersen has simultaneously discovered that jobs matter and that numbers matter! I\u2019m glad that she\u2019s got a focus on numbers, because it\u2019s certainly not a normal theme from her party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn terms of jobs and job creation, it is absolutely the case that one of the very reasons I care about growth in the economy\u2014one of the very reasons I care about productivity\u2014is that you don\u2019t get job creation in a sustainable way unless you are dealing with the underlying fundamentals of an economy. One of the things that has been observed, actually, for successive decades in the New Zealand economy is that we prevent some investment that could create jobs through our own regulation and red tape, which is why the Government\u2019s fast-track initiative\u2014which has allowed the fast tracking of major developments that support thousands of jobs\u2014has been so important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EToday, the seventh major housing project was announced through the fast-track process: Ashbourne in the Waikato. The member mentioned Nelson Tasman. Well, there, we\u2019ve got another housing development under way, which is seeing people in jobs constructing those houses and will, in future, see families living in those homes. I think it\u2019s pretty cute that the member\u2019s colleague earlier in this debate suggested that, actually\u2014guess what, guys!\u2014they\u2019re all on board fast track now. Well, they voted against it at every reading, they opposed it, and now they\u2019re trying to have their cake and eat it too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIf you\u2019re on the side of job creation, you have to also be on the side of encouraging investment. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve got the Investment Boost policy, to encourage firms to make investments. You also have to be on the side of education and ensuring you\u2019ve got basic standards of literacy and numeracy in your schools, which, again, that member opposes. She prefers to line up with those members of the unions who don\u2019t want that. It\u2019s why you actually have to pursue free-trade agreements, because, actually, that\u2019s what ensures this will be an economy that flourishes into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI find it hard to take that member seriously when she says she cares about job creation, when every initiative this Government takes to support job creation, her party opposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022784f4e929aed4ea6a05d1a10add6eccb\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0ff42792708a6b26b467d087e2fec22\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022784f4e929aed4ea6a05d1a10add6eccb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0ff42792708a6b26b467d087e2fec22\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East) (15:53)\u003C/span\u003E: A question to the Minister of Finance: obviously, there were a lot of changes made through that 2024 Budget, in terms of some systemic changes and re-prioritisations. What do you think, looking back now, has had the biggest impact in terms of providing the buffer zone that we now are experiencing through the fuel crisis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u0022acf6d9b01dfc98a6aba39d77587386c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022acf6d9b01dfc98a6aba39d77587386c7\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (15:53)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s a very good question because, across that $43\u00A0billion worth of savings, there are a number of items which have been very significant. One of those is the ongoing drive from the Government to be more efficient with our own shop, which is to say those who serve the Government and its own policy development and analysis in the Public Service, we\u2019ve asked them to do that more efficiently, and we\u2019ve had significant reductions in the back-office bureaucracy, which has allowed us to invest more in front-line services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EAnother significant change we have made is to ensure that New Zealand\u2019s pay equity regime, going forward, is more akin to those around the rest of the world and is something that is fiscally sustainable. That delivered around $12 billion worth of savings, and it is the case that any party who says they\u2019re going back to the settings that were there previously needs to find $12 billion. There\u2019s a hole in your Budget, Barbara Edmonds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0ab47671a67e2f8b4d520530b9c0891\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0ab47671a67e2f8b4d520530b9c0891\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana) (15:54)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Talking about a hole in a Budget, given the supposed savings\u2014and I note some of Treasury\u2019s comments in the actual annual review around fiscal consolidation; we\u2019ll let the Minister of Finance have a look at the transcripts there, around holes. But, in relation to the natural hazards insurance levy, we asked Treasury at the time whether they were looking at an increase in the levy. For those members who are not much aware, with the insurance industry, roughly around 460, depending on the type of policy an insurer will have, there will be part of it that is the natural hazards levy. I think it\u2019s about 16c in every dollar. Now, that goes towards the funds where, in the case of a huge natural hazard and it meets certain criteria, the Natural Hazards Commission will actually pay out the first amount of that particular loss for that insured person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe reason why I\u2019m raising this today is, given the state of emergency here in Wellington, the weather events that we\u2019ve seen over the last fortnight, including the cyclone that hit parts of the North Island a couple of weekends ago\u2014the events and the downpours that we\u2019ve seen, including in my current electorate of Mana and parts of Porirua. At the time, Treasury, as part of the annual review in late December last year, said that they were getting advice in relation to whether the natural hazards insurance levy is going to increase. A very genuine question to the Minister: how is that advice progressing, and will we see an increase to the natural hazards insurance levy; if not, what support is the Government looking to provide to the Natural Hazards Commission if they choose not to increase it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u0022259b5de5646cd59b2dff4c0afb940c42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022259b5de5646cd59b2dff4c0afb940c42\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (15:56)\u003C/span\u003E: I welcome what the member the Hon Barbara Edmonds herself characterised as her first genuine question. As the member knows, we were faced as a Government with a choice to hike the levies on insurance policies for New Zealand homeowners by around $200 a year. I was reluctant to progress that at a time when I knew New Zealanders were facing significant cost of living pressures, but also where I was not able to access clear data about the uptake of insurance products and whether or not increasing prices for insurance was impacting on uptake. It\u2019s actually most important to the Crown that people continue to take out insurance, otherwise we have a significant potential liability there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EWe are doing a review, together with the insurance sector and regulators, to look at what has been driving cost increases in insurance, what options there are for keeping those cost pressures lower, and ensuring adequate uptake of insurance into the future. That review is progressing well, and I\u2019m grateful that the member\u2019s party has supported it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022 data-id=\u00223b0562f6faf9a5006e7ffe61e359a10a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b0562f6faf9a5006e7ffe61e359a10a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Finance) (15:57)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve heard a lot in this debate about the ideology of socialism and the idea that spending money is a kind of aroha\u2014or love; that the more money that is spent, the more the Government loves the people. Perhaps we\u2019ve even heard about the warmth of collectivism. But what we may have missed is some basic facts about the year in question. In that year, Government spending went from 33 point\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275eefab762985f68fe3bfc45981670ba\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Chair. I\u2019m so sorry. I just wanted to check, in terms of the Deputy Prime Minister\u2019s lapel pin. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222eafa2fe92852391bd592bb07b11aa75\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229e686055db3ae06d1f66960053bc5a7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I always knew that the Green Party focused on small things, but I didn\u2019t know they were focused on something this small. Perhaps it is the focus also of a small man and a small mind, but, as I was saying, this year that we\u2019re talking about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022394eb0f5a44ac9edd3f595521c1c4fee\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Commenting on points of order is my role.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224620aa1176abd4e8b0c9af791c17787f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Madam Chair; I was just trying to help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d6535df43c79d4782d5af091b1c545d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: It didn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022155820aa0bca8650d9ec871e28d48ce2\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: The proportion of the economy that was taken by Government went down over this year from 33.1 percent to 32.5 percent. That may not sound like a lot, but 0.6 of a percent of the whole economy is about $2.5 billion. This is about doing more with less to get actual results, rather than the belief that if a politician spends more of other taxpayers\u2019 money, they must love the people more. If you really care about the people and their outcomes, you set some goals and you set out to achieve them. This Government did that, and we have it publicly and transparently out there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat did we achieve in the time that this money was being spent? Well, the number one goal was shorter stays in emergency departments\u2014the idea that 95\u00A0percent of people get admitted, discharged, or transferred within six hours. That\u2019s been a tiny proportion in the past, but it rose to 74\u00A0percent. We got six points closer to our goal that year. We said there should be shorter wait times for elective treatment. That went from 62\u00A0percent up to 66\u00A0percent. We\u2019re doing more with less and getting better outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe reduced violent crime from 185,000 crimes at the end of 2023, down to 135,000 by October 2025, when this financial year was under way. That is a massive, 50,000 decrease in violent crimes that people are a victim of, because we put the money\u2014we didn\u2019t just say we put money into law and order; we actually got results with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI could keep going: increased student attendance\u2014something that I happen to be personally responsible for in this Government, or at least the policy; not for every single child, I just want to stress! The fact is that we had only 47\u00A0percent of children attending in term 3, 2023, but we got that to 58.4\u00A0percent in term 2, 2025. Over the period that this particular Budget was spent, in every single area, we can point to improvements in health and crime and education, all the while spending less money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhy does that matter? Because, when the Government takes less, people eat more. It takes pressure off inflation, and hasn\u2019t that been valuable as we\u2019ve had to absorb this shock from the conflicts in the Middle East pushing up the price of energy? It means, with lower inflation, we don\u2019t have the high interest rates that people suffered for many years after the last spending blowout. And, with lower interest rates, you actually get jobs created and possibility for people in their lives, so that they can feel like their efforts make a difference and they can feel good about themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s what it\u2019s all about, and this Government actually fronts up with the facts that we are spending less money and we are getting better results for the hard-earned taxpayer money that we spend, and we publish the data right across the board, so people know that they can trust us. That\u2019s the question people are going to have to ask themselves as this year goes on: who do you trust? The people who can give you the numbers and show they\u2019ve delivered; or that lot over there that raise petty points of order about something as small as a pin?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228eb73d2fb461e443d5484bd48e94fa29\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: It would appear that the supply of questions that, I presume, the Minister of Finance is not answering has dried up, so we\u2019ll now move on to the next topic. Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Transport is now available for one hour to respond to members\u2019 questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229bac427f86f16b6c7c8ce5c189f8b520\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u2014Annual Review Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d2386080f08ddc4e821088051bb3d052\u0022\u003ETransport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248ce26e54d83406399b875df20400dec\u0022 data-id=\u002258134cce8c9bbe8e532997ca118c4b56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248ce26e54d83406399b875df20400dec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258134cce8c9bbe8e532997ca118c4b56\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (Chairperson of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee) (16:03)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair, thanks. I rise as the chair of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee. We reported back to the House 20 review reports, and 11 of those relate to transport. I\u2019m only going to focus on two of those, but I did want to start off just by saying thank you to the excellent Transport and Infrastructure Committee, who work really collegially and constructively together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe two areas I wanted to focus on, in the time I\u2019ve got available, the first one of those, interestingly, is the Transport Accident Investigation Commission (TAIC). The reason I\u2019m focusing on that, if you look at the recommendation that\u2019s come back to the House, is that normally we just say to the House, \u201CPlease can you note the report?\u201D For this one, we\u2019ve actually said\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CThe Transport and Infrastructure Committee has conducted the annual review of the Transport Accident Investigation Commission and recommends to the Government that it investigate how recommendations made by the Transport Accident Investigation Commission could be better followed up and consider empowering the commission to do so.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe had a really interesting session with TAIC. What they do is they investigate transport accidents. They\u2019re often very serious situations\u2014they could be maritime; they could be aviation\u2014and it\u2019s really good that the name of the organisation describes exactly what it does. It\u2019s pretty understandable. It looks at systemic safety issues. It has a no-blame focus. It\u2019s really looking at what went wrong, how you fix it, and it often communicates with the organisations who are involved in it during the process. Quite often, they will fix the things during that process, which is great, and they then produce a final report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat did concern us, and this is why we\u2019ve made the recommendation we have, is that once they\u2019ve produced their report, that\u2019s it. They have no further role. They have no statutory ability to do anything, so they can\u2019t actually follow up on their own recommendations. What we\u2019ve said is that we\u2019re concerned to hear that neither the commission nor any other agency is legally required to follow up on the recommendations that the commission makes in its reports. Indeed, TAIC told us that, once it publishes a report, it has reached the end of its remit and cannot revisit an issue unless a new accident or incident occurs. It can neither monitor nor undertake enforcement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat they said is that they want to be seen as a credible voice of safety and that their role and recommendations are treated similarly to the Ombudsman. But the Ombudsman can make a report to this House; TAIC cannot. It\u2019s the issue of visibility, so that\u2019s why we have made the recommendation we have to think about whether, in fact, TAIC could have a role, which was somewhat enhanced, to at least say, \u201CHey, we made some recommendations. We think that these recommendations haven\u2019t been acted on, and we want the House to have a look at that to make sure that these recommendations are acted on.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETAIC\u2019s vision is about no repeat accidents, ever, and, of course, if you\u2019ve made recommendations and nobody does anything about it, what\u2019s going to happen? The likelihood is that those accidents may well be repeated. So we make that recommendation not just to note the report but also to say, \u201CHey, we actually think that the House needs to give consideration or the executive needs to give some consideration to changing the powers of TAIC so, at least, it can make recommendations to the House to think about its recommendations which have not, necessarily, been acted upon.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EJust in the time I\u2019ve got available, the other one I wanted to mention was the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA). Clearly, there is huge pressure on funding. We can\u2019t do everything we want to do as a nation. The agency is looking at different funding tools, as is the Ministry of Transport, which is great to see, but one of the things we particularly looked at was the maintenance of transport assets. Of course, we had a really good debate in this House not that long ago, following the New Zealand Infrastructure Commission\u2019s excellent report on the National Infrastructure Plan. One of the key messages there was that we need to look after the existing assets before we build lots of nice shiny, bright new things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, more investment is being made in the maintenance of the roading network, but it\u2019s quite clear that more needs to be done. We\u2019ve got the Pothole Prevention Fund\u2014probably misnamed; it\u2019s about, you know, rehabilitation and fixing of roads, which is a good thing\u2014but the other bit, which we did note, and there was quite a lot of discussion about this, was bridges. I look at the Minister for the South Island over there; he\u2019s smiling. Right across the country, not only on State highways but also on local roads, there is not enough money to fix what NZTA describes as a bow wave of need for investment in bridges which are getting to the end of their lives. It\u2019s really important that we consider those and where we put the money\u2014the limited amount of money\u2014that there is to maintain the roading assets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe other point I\u2019d like to make, in the last few seconds I\u2019ve got there, is that we did have quite a discussion about special purpose roads, and it\u2019s pleasing to see that NZTA were thinking about whether, in fact, they did need to hand back the last handful of those to the poor cash-strapped councils, which have got to look after those if NZTA doesn\u2019t do that. The key focus there, for the NZTA and in the transport area, is the amount of money we\u2019ve got to do what is an impossibly large task, how we prioritise, and how we make sure we get the best possible value for money. I appreciate any comments that the Minister might like to make in response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u0022d90fb2eddd37db3f1fcbe1c0f665463b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d90fb2eddd37db3f1fcbe1c0f665463b\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (16:08)\u003C/span\u003E: Kia orana, Mr Chair. I just want to acknowledge the chair of the committee, Mr Foster, for his fair summation on some of the issues that were covered. I have a number of questions that I want to put to the Minister, but before I do that, I want to just provide a few comments, which is the prerogative of any member, but also because these were issues that were covered as part of the annual review hearing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that came into office with one message on transport: roads, roads, roads. They cancelled the new ferries, they halved the cycling budget, and they gutted public transport subsidies\u2014all so they could announce a $56 billion motorway programme they have no credible plan to fund and no realistic time frame to build within. Meanwhile, of course, the bills keep coming: the $671 million in sunk costs on cancelled ferries; billions of dollars in cost blowouts on highways that haven\u2019t even broken ground; a Pothole Prevention Fund; the pothole patrol, where four in 10 repairs have to be repeatedly fixed again, again, again, again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders were promised competent infrastructure delivery. What they got from this Government was wishful thinking dressed up as a plan. Then, of course, the fuel crisis came along: petrol and diesel prices are high, Air New Zealand cut over 1,000 flights, the Interslander keeps breaking down to the point that often there is one vessel crossing the resilient strait and regional communities are left stranded, literally stranded. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis Government has had two years to build resilience into our transport system. Instead, they have spent their time dismantling every tool that would have helped. They scrapped cheaper public transport fares, they cut walking and cycling investment, and ignored their own officials\u2019 advice who warned them that this approach was wrong. Every expert response to an oil shock\u2014be it public transport, more active travel options, less car dependence\u2014is a policy that this Government killed. They didn\u2019t just fail to prepare, they actively made us more vulnerable. New Zealanders deserve better, and they certainly know it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhen the Minister looks at the GPS (Government policy statement) on land transport, what is contained there is the fuel crisis has basically changed the context of the GPS. The petrol and diesel costs are now the dominant transport costs for transport when it comes to households and businesses, and there are no provisions in the GPS for responding to what is a current disruption, or seeking to accelerate modal shifts. My first question to the Minister is: given the fuel crisis, will he and his Government review the GPS settings rather than wait for the next review to allow greater investment in public transport and active modes that reduce dependence on fossil fuels?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u00224739d1681b2763fc3c6fb256eddc5b92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224739d1681b2763fc3c6fb256eddc5b92\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (16:11)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, goodness me, that was quite a rant. A few, frankly, facile and incorrect statements there. Firstly, public transport spending is up in the GPS period, so the assertion from the member that public transport has been cut is wrong. There is a sizable increase in public transport in this GPS period. To give you the actual numbers: $21-24 billion in the National Land Transport Fund (NLTF), $1.32 billion of NLTF funding for public transport, up to $1.87 billion in this year\u2019s period. So that\u2019s, if my maths is correct, around half a billion dollars more. Local share has gone up as well. Overall, the total spend across the national land transport plan period is $3.6 billion in this period, up from $2.55 billion. This idea that public transport has been cut is just completely wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIs it correct that there are public transport authorities that want to do more services than there is money available? Yes, that was the case under the previous Government. In the unlikely event that member ever finds himself the Minister, he will find himself in exactly the same position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe member says that this Government has advanced only roads. Again, completely incorrect. Just a couple of weeks ago, the final stage for the Eastern Busway was signed off\u2014a joint project between Auckland Council and the Government. The Government is advancing the Northwest Rapid Transit project, which is the next step on the Auckland Rapid Transit project. This Government is advancing the level crossings removal programme in Auckland to take advantage of the City Rail Link, which I note is something the last Government did nothing about, even after six years when it was obvious to all and sundry\u2014back in 2017\u2014that it was fine to build a $5.5 billion underground rail link, but the real way to optimise the use of that was to sort out the level crossings on the eastern and western and southern lines. Nothing happened until this Government came in and worked with Auckland Council, and that work is now progressing, which is really good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere are any number of other things I could point to. This Government is fixing the shambles of the national ticketing system that the previous Government oversaw in a hopeless\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2869eaa44b3d2c73902839886504bc0\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: How\u2019s that coming along?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210608c6822ff686261b0ada4df4d957c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s coming on really well. I\u2019ve just put out a press release about it: 1 million tags in Christchurch, down in \u014Ctautahi Christchurch; 200,000 individual users soon to roll out into other parts of the country. I\u2019m not going to accept the programme\u2019s perfect; we inherited a dog. I have taken action as Minister to fix the programme and we are now making good progress on it. When it\u2019s eventually done, by the end of 2027, New Zealand will have a world-leading national ticketing system. Should you need to fly from Auckland to Wellington and take the bus to Auckland Airport and then take the bus from Wellington\u2014and if you\u2019ve got enough hours in your day and you want to fly to Christchurch and do the same thing and use the same credit card or the same Motu Move card, which is what it\u2019s going to be called, you can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EA lot of emphasis is placed on the fact that you can use the same card everywhere in the country. That\u2019s sort of interesting, but, you know, not that many people are going to do that. Maybe some MPs will; I\u2019m sure Julie Anne Genter will get the card out and use it. The actual exciting thing is that unlike most other places in the world\u2014in fact, I think I\u2019m right in saying nowhere else in the world\u2014you will be able to use your credit card and get the concessions. Everyone goes on about the fact that you should just be able to use your credit card on the buses. Well, you know, that\u2019s great, and you can do that; in fact, you can do that now. But the real point is getting the concessions on the credit card, so that if you\u2019re a student or you\u2019re a community services card holder, or any of the other different concessions, you\u2019ll be able to use it. Part of the challenge has been synthesising the concessions down, because the IT project is so complicated. Because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249e4e4362add66e78aec61b5b26a97b0\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: You said it was a mistake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef44bff6e3ded4d8c5f3bc0ac74f335c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: No, I didn\u2019t say it was a mistake. I said it was a mistake to roll it out the way you useless guys rolled it out. What we are now doing is fixing it. The member claims there have been \u201Cbillions of dollars\u201D\u2014this is a direct quote\u2014\u201Cbillions of dollars of blow-out on roads.\u201D Well, I\u2019d like the member to actually provide some evidence for that. Actually, what we are doing is getting on with the job of delivering good value-for-money projects. Yes, there are some overruns, but not to the extent of billions of dollars. One of the overruns within the Penlink project, for example, is because of that Government\u2019s focus on building world-leading sort of eco-friendly bridges and all this sort of stuff that, of course, drives up cost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIn relation to the member\u2019s actual question, as opposed to the assertions not based on fact, there is an enormous amount of resilience being built into the system. Now, some of that money was appropriated by the previous Government\u2014that should be acknowledged. Some of it has come under this Government as well. I direct the member to the work the Transport Agency is doing on the Brynderwyns and the Mangamukas, for example, where we have seen real progress, and on the East Coast post - Cyclone Gabrielle. Clearly, there is more work to do there and not all of those projects have finished yet, but many of them have indeed finished and are being built right now. I\u2019m looking forward to the Waikare Gorge replacement\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c96149a439844ecfa86967f9caf5f50d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226562ac54f20acd4081845630fef224fc\u0022\u003EKatie Nimon\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6487857ffcfadd3ef24de2424b40a1f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014it was a very large project\u2014acknowledging the hard-working MP for Napier, Katie Nimon\u2014and I\u2019m looking forward to turning the sod on that later in the year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe member paints, as always, a very negative picture about life, but actually I\u2019d encourage him to look on the bright side of life as there\u2019s a group of amazing things happening out there in the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5f17b5306cef7c1547635b1c62b0490\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5f17b5306cef7c1547635b1c62b0490\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai) (16:17)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I thank the Minister for his contribution. I did want to ask a couple of questions of clarification about the numbers he just gave us. I believe he said $1.8 billion\u2014was that annual or over the three-year period? Is that for public transport services and infrastructure or just services? I did want to know whether the relative increase in public transport service funding kept up with the pace of inflation from the previous three-year period. As we all understand, there was quite a significant period of increased costs, and therefore providing a greater sum of money may not result in a greater provision of service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe recently received answers from the Minister stating that about $200 million of funding was declined for towns right around the country\u2014like New Plymouth and Dunedin, Wellington, Hawke\u2019s Bay, Nelson\u2014for improved or expanded public transport services, which would probably really come in handy right now. Is the Government looking at, in its response to the fuel crisis, enabling funding of additional services in those smaller towns where maybe congestion isn\u2019t an issue, but actually, not having access by frequent, reliable public transport services is an issue? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe councils have done a lot of work. We\u2019ve seen it be successful in places like Queenstown, where fares were lowered, service frequency increased, and then patronage went up and it gave people more options to get around the Queenstown Lakes area without having to rely on their own cars. That\u2019s something that could happen in Dunedin and New Plymouth and Nelson and other places.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u00220ec077b207ca58208a1b8d688dfb8b16\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ec077b207ca58208a1b8d688dfb8b16\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (16:19)\u003C/span\u003E: In relation to the member\u2019s last point, those are operational decisions for the Transport Agency in conjunction with the public transport authorities. I think it would be fair to say, from the central government point of view, our focus at the moment is on looking at any additional support that\u2019s required from the Crown to enable existing services to run. There\u2019s just no doubt\u2014and I\u2019ve talked publicly about this; the member will be aware of it\u2014that the diesel price spike has placed real pressure on services. Now, as the member knows from her own time in this chair, there\u2019s a complicated funding mix between public transport authorities and central government. The Minister is not involved in exactly all of that, but we are looking at whether or not we need to provide a bit of extra support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIn relation to the member\u2019s question, the answer is no, not from a central government point of view, but the Transport Agency may well be talking to some public transport authorities around some services. The public transport budget\u2014as, again, I\u2019ve told the member before\u2014is always oversubscribed. There are always additional things that people want, in the same way that the National Land Transport State highway activity class is always oversubscribed and, frankly, the walking and cycling activity class, as we heard from the chair. We\u2019ve got real funding constraints and they\u2019re not going away anytime soon, so you\u2019ve got to prioritise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022698f2a3d8d970828c3fdc3be0a15aafc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: From the Chair, I will encourage the short back and forths.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022 data-id=\u002289071b719189ff1d688ee58c657cb3a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289071b719189ff1d688ee58c657cb3a4\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai) (16:21)\u003C/span\u003E: Noting that there may be more demand for funding than there is available, $200 million in the context of the National Land Transport Programme is only 0.6 percent of that transport budget. It\u2019s a relatively small amount of money that could make a big difference in the context of a fuel crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIn previous terms of Government, when there\u2019s been the COVID pandemic, the Crown made available funding to subsidise public transport services to make them free during certain levels of lockdown. That didn\u2019t need to go through the New Zealand Transport Agency process to get approval because it was Crown funding. I guess my question is: is there going to be consideration from the Government of reconsidering services that have already been worked up and proposed by local councils, but maybe funding them in a different way so that they could maybe be up and operational by the end of this year in order to help people with what is likely to be an extended period of higher prices at the pump?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u002206b22b3a67d3ec9293e178b74b2220df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206b22b3a67d3ec9293e178b74b2220df\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (16:22)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, whether or not it is an extended period or not, time will tell. I mean, that is part of the challenge, that we\u2019re dealing with a situation where it\u2019s a day-by-day proposition. I\u2019ve just been advised that public transport capacity issues have not been raised by public transport authorities, at least yet, which is positive. We are seeing an uptick in public transport usage in our major cities, which is great. Yes, it\u2019s true, the Crown could make an additional contribution into the National Land Transport Fund or by another means in order to expand services. As I\u2019ve said, we\u2019re not looking to do that right now. Our focus is on maintaining existing services and helping public transport authorities deal with the cost pressures they are facing. As the member knows, the Government is in a very constrained funding environment, fiscally. Every dollar that we spend on that has to come from somewhere. I\u2019m not ruling it out but that\u2019s not our focus at the moment, but I understand where the member is coming from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8b46ed1518411ba0c5b2330f740320a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8b46ed1518411ba0c5b2330f740320a\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai) (16:23)\u003C/span\u003E: Thanks, Minister, for that answer. While capacity may not be an issue in places where there is already well-established use of public transport, I guess, just to make clear, my question was getting more at those regional towns in New Zealand that haven\u2019t had a viable public transport network. Therefore, there\u2019s no capacity issue because there aren\u2019t really significant services in the first place, but putting those services out there might make a big difference to people\u2019s ability to get around using less fuel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EMy other question, now, comes to the amount of money that we\u2019re spending in the financial year under review and maybe in the coming year on preparing for roads of national significance. Can the Minister give us an approximate figure on how much is being spent just on planning and land acquisition for highways that may be phased quite late in the piece?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6bcf72d3334a4b294ce4a1c21383fd5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6bcf72d3334a4b294ce4a1c21383fd5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (16:24)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I mean, the number I announced, from memory, in October last year is about $1.3 billion over the next few years. The breakdown of that will vary by project. If the member puts a written question to me in writing, I can get back to her with the full breakdown. Every project is a bit different between consenting designations, land acquisition, geotech work, things like that. The Transport Agency will have spent some of that money already, probably a reasonable amount, but if the member puts it in writing, I can get back to her on the exact breakdown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022 data-id=\u00224cff0d998d412d620c35825e680908b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224cff0d998d412d620c35825e680908b3\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour) (16:24)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. We know demand for Total Mobility, as a scheme, increased quite significantly after Labour made the scheme more accessible to disabled users. Now, with the changes that the Minister is making, that will mean that Total Mobility users will have to pay more for the trips that they make. Is the Minister saying that was wrong; that making the scheme more accessible to disabled people was wrong? That disabled people should have fewer transport options and be forced to prioritise which parts of their life that they can afford to participate in, particularly when we\u2019re in the midst of a cost of living crisis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u002225f9f961a1ca9df7bd64da7af07a2bdf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225f9f961a1ca9df7bd64da7af07a2bdf\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (16:25)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for her question around Total Mobility, which is a very important scheme, and I know the member has some knowledge of it. The Government supports Total Mobility and there would be many MPs who are familiar with the scheme. What we\u2019ve been grappling with, as I hope the member will appreciate, is quite big increases in costs that weren\u2019t funded. I\u2019m not deliberately having a go at the member, but the previous Government\u2019s decision to increase the subsidy from 50 percent to 75 percent unsurprisingly had an impact on demand because you\u2019ve made things cheaper, which is logical, but the baseline funding for Total Mobility from the Crown stayed flat even as demand went up like that\u2014another, as we say, \u201Cfiscal cliff\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe numbers I\u2019ve got here: in 2024-2025 there were 3 million trips, up from 1.8 million in 2018. That is an unsustainable increase in cost. What we have consulted on\u2014we have not yet made decisions, but what we have proposed is reducing the fare subsidy from 75 percent to 65 percent; so still more generous than what it was pre-2022. I think it\u2019s important to note that prior to 2022, the subsidy was 50 percent and it\u2019s now going to be 65 percent, so still generous. We can argue about whether or not it should be 75 or 65 percent, but that does save some money. Then the other thing to note here is that there is a very complicated funding system, between 30 percent from the National Land Transport Fund, Crown funding of 25 percent, local government funds 20 percent, and the Total Mobility user funds 25 percent, all of which adds up to, currently, 75. That\u2019s four different funding pots. It\u2019s a complicated scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re essentially proposing to reduce down the Crown funding amount and also work with the public transport authorities around some trip caps. I won\u2019t bore the member with the details, but the short point is we think we can make the scheme fiscally sustainable, both for the Crown but also for the public transport authorities. The real danger is that unless they are helped, they will just withdraw from Total Mobility, which means we end up in a situation where there is a very generous Crown subsidy for a limited number of people and only some regions who can access Total Mobility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019ve, essentially, decided to do is reduce down the Crown subsidy a bit from 75 percent to 65 percent\u2014still more generous than what it was in 2022\u2014and work with the public transport authorities to make sure we still have countrywide application of Total Mobility so that someone in Invercargill and someone in Kaikohe can access Total Mobility, but the scheme is, at least, sustainable. These are the trade-offs that you have to make in Government and, respectfully, they are trade-offs that, sometimes, some members of the other side of the House don\u2019t ever want to actually acknowledge. Governing is, actually, sometimes about making some quite tough decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022 data-id=\u0022ede50fedb960bfc1dac695f6457e0453\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ede50fedb960bfc1dac695f6457e0453\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour) (16:28)\u003C/span\u003E: I absolutely acknowledge that being in Government is about making decisions and that there are trade-offs, that there is a cost to the Total Mobility scheme, and someone needs to bear that cost, ultimately. I also take the point that the Minister wants to reduce the cost to the Crown. However, has there been any modelling done, including social impact modelling, on Total Mobility users who will be forced to reduce the trips that they make or to cancel trips that they take as a result of these choices that this Government is making?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EFor example\u2014there are many examples, I\u2019ll pick one: a single mum who is blind, who has said that she needs to now make a choice between either travelling to her workplace or dropping off and picking up her kids at school. There are others who say that on the table are choices around whether they make their medical appointments or not because of the increase in cost to them. My question to the Minister is around modelling. Has any modelling, including social impact modelling, been done so that we can understand what the flow-on effects and cost burdens are to disabled people and flow-on costs to the Crown as an example of people missing their medical appointments and so on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u00227b84962373095d130c1fa376887d0d4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b84962373095d130c1fa376887d0d4f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (16:30)\u003C/span\u003E: The short answer is there hasn\u2019t been any social impact modelling done that I\u2019m aware of. There has been modelling done around the cost impacts, which I\u2019ve just explained, because to do the modelling as to how the next five, six years are going to play out in terms of the fiscal impacts we\u2019ve just been talking about\u2014there has been some modelling done around that, and I\u2019m fairly sure that was released as part of the consultation document that we put out at the end of last year. It\u2019s also important to note that we haven\u2019t yet made decisions on this, but we will soon, in due course. The submissions have now closed, and we\u2019ll be making decisions in due course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022 data-id=\u0022495efc375e9c9595731955ec4513435f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022495efc375e9c9595731955ec4513435f\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai) (16:30)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Going back to public transport in the context of the fossil fuel crisis, my understanding is that private operators like ferry operators are currently having to wear the much higher diesel costs, and councils certainly aren\u2019t in a great position to be able to make up the additional costs that might be needed to run services. Will the Government be considering how they can help support councils and operators to pay for higher diesel costs for public transport given there\u2019s now higher demand for public transport?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u00226383499dcb82c1006b1661d7cfa6ed8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226383499dcb82c1006b1661d7cfa6ed8d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (16:31)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, as I said, like, five minutes ago and have said publicly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022 data-id=\u00223f4b44b928c2e313a533eabb844d387e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f4b44b928c2e313a533eabb844d387e\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai) (16:31)\u003C/span\u003E: OK. I think there\u2019s about a three-month lag between when the costs might be increasing and when the indexation might occur for altering contracts, but you\u2019re saying that the Government will be talking to councils about helping meet the additional diesel costs of operating those services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u0022a919fa5bfe3c56a6984a7d0ed1c62c3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a919fa5bfe3c56a6984a7d0ed1c62c3f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (16:32)\u003C/span\u003E: Again, yes, and they are already doing that. The public transport authorities are already talking to the New Zealand Transport Agency regularly, and the Government is, as I said, like, twice now\u2014we are considering what extra support may be required from the Crown, and once we\u2019ve bottomed that out, we\u2019ll announce it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7e8ecf48e5f1f193ec0e9d6b468eb5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7e8ecf48e5f1f193ec0e9d6b468eb5f\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai) (16:32)\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Government be looking at other opportunities to support local councils with bus priority, which might help assist in terms of ensuring a service uses less fuel and is less likely to get stuck in traffic, so the same amount of buses can achieve more?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u00221a7a45bbab1b6f0fdaf7436ae07723ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a7a45bbab1b6f0fdaf7436ae07723ea\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (16:32)\u003C/span\u003E: I mean, if necessary, I suppose would be the real point. I mean, it\u2019s not quite as simple as just saying, \u201COh, well, we\u2019re going to do a bus priority lane.\u201D\u2014if only it were that simple. I mean, I\u2019m generally in favour of bus priority where it makes sense. I wouldn\u2019t say we would do it in response to the current fuel crisis, but if the situation persists and the case can be made, then I\u2019m sure the transport agency will look at it with the councils. I\u2019m not ruling it out, but it\u2019s not something immediately top of mind for us in response to the fuel crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022 data-id=\u0022472d931af67a2419de5a89ea91a57410\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022472d931af67a2419de5a89ea91a57410\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai) (16:33)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I wondered if the Government might want to consider that. I think it has been recommended by the International Energy Agency, but particularly if VKT\u2014vehicle kilometres travelled\u2014is down on highways and the harbour bridge, that might mean that there\u2019s more capacity and you could take a lane instantly, which would help with the public transport services not getting stuck. The same amount of lanes can carry the total number of cars, and bus lanes can carry many more people and therefore it makes it more attractive to take the bus, which makes the bus more efficient, but also it uses less diesel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EAnyway, I guess I want to know: how constrained is the New Zealand Transport Agency by the current Government policy statement and National Land Transport Programme in responding to councils and responding to the fossil fuel crisis? Are they able to consider more flexible new requests for funding for either public transport priority or running of services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u0022ccf9a055cdcb6b94c3d4cd60544abc65\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ccf9a055cdcb6b94c3d4cd60544abc65\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (16:34)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I mean, as I\u2019ve sort of said a couple of times now, we\u2019re in a very difficult funding environment. The public transport services activity class does not have a lot of headroom in it, which is precisely why we are considering a bit of extra support, as I\u2019ve said, in relation to the diesel costs, which will eventually hit councils, or the public transport authorities. We are considering that, but there\u2019s not a lot of headroom in the existing funding settings. Successive Governments\u2019 decisions to delay fuel tax increases since 2020, which have meant that National Land Transport Fund revenue has fallen in real terms, have had an impact. As I\u2019ve said repeatedly to the entire country, things that you buy have to be paid for, and, you know, we\u2019re in a difficult situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe other thing I\u2019d note, also\u2014worth bearing in mind\u2014is that the Government\u2019s facing a double crunch because people are driving less because of the fuel price, diesel and petrol, and therefore there\u2019s less revenue coming in in terms of the National Land Transport Fund; it\u2019s hypothecated, petrol tax and road-user charge. People are driving less, or they\u2019re purchasing less petrol, so we\u2019re being hit on the revenue front, and we\u2019re also being hit on the cost front in terms of the price of diesel as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESo, you know, it\u2019s not a happy funding picture; it\u2019s not a happy situation, but, you know, these are why you get into the gig, right: to get into the job, to try and deal with these issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022 data-id=\u0022669425d13514e6e37501cf9798c613b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022669425d13514e6e37501cf9798c613b5\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai) (16:36)\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister of Transport think that, potentially, some of the planning for highway projects could be deferred to free up more funding for more urgent needs like increasing public transport services\u2014one\u2014and, two, I think earlier the Minister said in response to Mr Utikere\u2019s contribution that it wasn\u2019t true that there\u2019d been blowouts on highways. I think my colleague Mr Utikere was probably referring to the difference in the anticipated cost of 17 roads of national significance in the National Party campaign versus what we now know they will cost, which is over $50 billion as opposed to $17 billion. What impact will rising fuel prices have on the cost of delivering those roads and the cost of bitumen repairing roads?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u00228a11f040a1c5d199e0d8ef606f9ce575\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a11f040a1c5d199e0d8ef606f9ce575\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (16:36)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, in terms of the first question, possibly, what we\u2019re not looking to do is roll out more public transport subsidies, which I think the member\u2019s also called for. You do hear every now and then people saying, you know, we should make public transport free and all the rest of it. As I think the member knows\u2014or I hope she knows\u2014the biggest driver of public transport uptake is not actually cost. Obviously, cost makes a difference on the margins\u2014if something is free, more people will use it, on the margins\u2014but the biggest driver is actually just frequency and reliability. If you know the train\u2019s going to turn up on time and it takes you where you want to go, you\u2019ll take it. If it\u2019s unreliable, like we\u2019ve experienced in Wellington over the last five or so years\u2014or 10 years, even, thanks to successive years of under-investment in maintenance on the rail network\u2014you won\u2019t, and there\u2019s been an impact on service levels and therefore patronage as a result.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re going through a prioritisation exercise on the roads of national significance at the moment. I\u2019ve talked very openly around how they are very expensive and they can\u2019t all be built at the same time, and that there\u2019s a continuum of projects and there\u2019s any number of different things to take into account, from readiness to actually start construction through to getting a regional spread through to benefit-cost ratio (BCR) which I know the member and I have talked about before and is not a be-all and end-all but is, obviously, a useful guide to what you should be investing in. You know, I\u2019m not a purist on BCRs, and I don\u2019t think the member is either. We\u2019re giving some thought to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn relation to what the fuel price does to the economic viability of some of these projects, that, I\u2019m sure, will be taken into consideration in due course by the transport agency. I think it\u2019s probably too early to tell. If diesel stays high for a long period of time, that will push up the cost of some of the projects, so that will have an impact, but we just don\u2019t know exactly. We are dealing with a very volatile\u2014by definition\u2014and uncertain environment, and we\u2019re just trying to steer the country through that responsibly in the national interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u00224ab432d057955efa72682a1e5ca31bcd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ab432d057955efa72682a1e5ca31bcd\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (16:39)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank you to the Hon Julie Anne Genter for, indeed, clarifying the position that I\u2019d articulated there\u2014spot on. The Minister of Transport is right: these are very, very expensive proposed roads. My next set of questions are on the roads of National Party significance. Whilst the Minister has said that he is not a purist on benefit-cost ratios (BCRs) there\u2019s one thing that has changed in recent times, and that is the methodology when it comes to the BCRs for each of the roads of national significance (RoNS).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, some critics will argue that the methodology actually has, perhaps, been changed to get the answer that the Government would like in terms of these projects being able to just scrape across the minimum threshold, but when we do look at the minimum threshold, there are several projects that have just barely cleared the line. I won\u2019t go through each of them and what the benefit-cost ratio is for untolled versus tolled options there, but there is also, I think, a transparency problem when it comes to the RoNS, because, certainly, the requests that have been put through to the Minister\u2019s own ministry show there are number of documents have been redacted in full. That really doesn\u2019t provide a lot of certainty or comfort around where some of these proposals sit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI guess my question to the Minister is: given some of those key documents from his own ministry around the funding and financing of some of those RoNS projects have been withheld, why is it that the basic level of information is being withheld from the public, and can we expect that information to be shared more broadly? The Minister has talked about a prioritisation process that he is going through, but in terms of making that information transparently available to the public, what are his immediate actions in that space?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u00224308284b546d20473d07fe47882e76a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224308284b546d20473d07fe47882e76a2\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (16:41)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there\u2019s a vast swathe of information available online. I don\u2019t know if the member has seen it, but there are investment cases and there are detailed appendices. There\u2019s all sorts of stuff available, including benefit-cost ratios (BCRs), by the way. The reason the member knows about all the BCRs is that they\u2019re publicly available. If the member has got an issue with some stuff that he claims should be available that aren\u2019t, then I\u2019m happy to have a look at it. Flick me an email. There will be reasons why things are withheld. The New Zealand Transport Agency, when it builds roads, is obviously dealing with the private sector and engaging in contracts\u2014often very expensive contracts\u2014so there will often be commercial reasons for it. Those will be decisions for the agency, not for me, but I\u2019m always happy to make things available. I generally follow a pretty open process on these things, as I hope the member appreciates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOn the BCR, yes, the methodology changed. I didn\u2019t change it. In fact, Ministers didn\u2019t change it. The transport agency didn\u2019t change it either. The Treasury did. Your questions are best directed to them, and I\u2019m sure they\u2019ll address them if you ask them. Essentially, what they did was\u2014it\u2019s not just about roads, by the way; this is for many projects\u2014look at them over a longer time period, and they lowered the discount rate. The effect of that is, I think, to make projects have higher BCRs, and that would be the criticism against them. Also\u2014again, I can\u2019t speak for the Treasury here, because I\u2019m not a BCR expert\u2014they would say to you that it\u2019s justifiable, and you should talk to them about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe reason why you shouldn\u2019t be pure about BCRs is that, by definition, they find it hard to capture the dynamic effects of investment. In particular, they tend to under-do some of the benefits that, I think, intuitively we all kind of know happens. The two classic examples I point to are the original Harbour Bridge, which had a BCR of 1.2 or 1.3 when it was built in the 50s and 60s. Well, it\u2019s sort of hard to imagine Auckland without the Harbour Bridge. Then the other one\u2014and this is the better example\u2014is the Northern Busway, which is the single most successful transport project built in New Zealand history, which was quite controversial at the time because everyone said, \u201COh, no one will ever get a bus over to the North Shore. Why would we?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221967d8ef664f44deb8866ddc9e986da4\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: The Greens supported it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfd9a5b221052886d7c11757045f7a67\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well, I know you supported it. Well done! You get at least something right! Those calls that we\u2019ll all run out of oil by 2015, which you used to put out in press releases in 2008, haven\u2019t quite worked out, but, anyway, you can\u2019t always be right. I\u2019ll accept you\u2019re right about that one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EOn the Northern Busway, 40\u00A0percent of people who cross the Auckland Harbour Bridge these days\u2014from Dan Bidois\u2019 electorate into Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u2019s, actually\u2014cross on a bus. It\u2019s pretty fantastic when you think about it. The Northern Busway\u2014I forget the exact amount; I think it was about $80 or $90\u00A0million back in the day\u2014had a BCR of like 1.3. Well, that has given the bridge years and years and years of life and has massively reduced congestion. I suspect the actual BCR of that project is like 10 to 1\u2014possibly higher.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227d19573a8ba4d8283b17374978c8ea2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fbfc75d8e3b3706e2472e05d88f9c8e\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: Like the Northern expressway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248ce26e54d83406399b875df20400dec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdca6b6f07ad3eab84dffcb5db105147\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: There will be great economic benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022995ea45da2d72e50897b23213549b591\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: This is not a lobbying opportunity, I might add, for members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5d71fce061af4508089ccfa0496c82b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! Anyway, my point is you shouldn\u2019t be purist about BCRs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7f04113368479e6e077b8ba18a0ab3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7f04113368479e6e077b8ba18a0ab3a\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (16:44)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I thank the Minister for his comments there. I want to talk about the pothole patrol, which, look, I appreciate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcef89c84f7c5d4b743109a19cd47f08\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce7495e944de4439d4c3aa479925853a\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Minister, this was Simeon Brown\u2019s pothole patrol, which, I appreciate, you inherited. He established and you inherited the pothole patrol. What the patrol has actually found out, of course, is that many of these potholes have been fixed not just once but two, three, four, and sometimes five times. Minister, are you satisfied that this is a good use of public expenditure, given the pothole patrol is going out to the same spots to fill the same holes when people expect it to be done once and done right? That\u2019s the first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe second question is just in terms of the New Zealand Transport Agency\u2019s (NZTA\u2019s) change to maintenance contract, which, I understand, back in December of 2025, that there was this complete overhaul of the integrated delivery model, which is how NZTA contracts maintenance; that these preferred suppliers were named in December of last year, and that those contracts are going live on 1 May. The question there, really, is: that\u2019s an interesting model to go live at scale in a shorter, perhaps, period of time, but does he have some confidence that there are not going to be any issues with the roll-out of that particular delivery model?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u00221eeddced000842db337ff8621bad5484\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221eeddced000842db337ff8621bad5484\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (16:46)\u003C/span\u003E: Look, the short answer on the second question is no, because I don\u2019t know a lot about it. It\u2019s really an operational decision for the agency. If the member has specific questions about it, I\u2019m happy to look at it, but, by definition, I don\u2019t get involved in operational decisions like that. The member\u2019s very Negative Nelly on potholes. I should put the pothole patrol on to the Labour Party funding hole. We might have to go back and fix that literally 10 times, but, anyway, I digress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe member and I have talked about this before. I\u2019m not a pothole expert. I don\u2019t think the member is either, to be honest. I\u2019m advised that the key is to get out and do a bit of a once-over, and if you can fix them the first time, you can, but do some work, and then come back and do a proper job. Of course, there will be cases in which people go back and repair them. In 2018, there were 39,000 potholes repaired on the State highway network. I strongly suspect the numbers are literally exactly the same. The key is getting them done in a timely way. We set a target, and 98\u00A0percent of potholes in 2024 and 2025 were fixable in 24 hours, which is fantastic and has proven to be very popular with the public. I\u2019m not a pothole expert, and if member has specific questions about how we repair a pothole, I suggest he talks to the transport agency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u002210f9a6e1da6764d24fe94e74230a60cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210f9a6e1da6764d24fe94e74230a60cc\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (16:47)\u003C/span\u003E: I just have one other area of questioning, which is around transport, but it\u2019s really around the future of school buses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8a2dd51a3ef7b44f83c83e8cea70ae8\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022050370307d34e4ce2deff45c4286e50a\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes\u2014the Minister says yes, because he knows that this is a really important issue to rural communities all around the country. Whilst it\u2019s good for communities like the East Coast, where the school review has been put on hold, it is not good news for communities in the wider Manawat\u016B, Rangit\u012Bkei, Tararua, and beyond area. Does the Minister think that it\u2019s fair for communities like that to, effectively, suffer the results of the Government putting things on hold but actually not wanting to go back and address what are real concerns from communities about getting them to school? We heard from Minister Seymour earlier about barriers to school attendance. This is another one. Does the Minister of Transport see this as an issue for those existing communities, and what does he intend to do about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281b7f36fef115d8a38a6bd170c18b08e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is aware that that\u2019s in the education portfolio.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244884181519934431bdb2bd2921fa122\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: I am, but the Minister seems happy to take the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u002222fd351eb52468dafe268c11eb28889f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222fd351eb52468dafe268c11eb28889f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (16:49)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I was going to make that point, because I think the member\u2019s embarrassed himself. I have no ministerial responsibility for school buses. Neither does the transport agency\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fe8730f9a54f543fe4ddd779bf37cae\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: The question is if you are concerned about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de377885526030856166b996112a63b5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m responsible for the appropriations. The New Zealand Transport Agency does not have responsibility for it. Neither, by the way, does the Ministry of Transport. When the Minister of Education appears, if you can be bothered, turn up and ask some questions of her.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022 data-id=\u0022b27fc8475098a911d161c7bb08ef0792\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b27fc8475098a911d161c7bb08ef0792\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai) (16:49)\u003C/span\u003E: This is my final area of questioning. I was interested to hear the Minister\u2019s views on benefit-cost ratios. I think the Minister would probably agree that the usefulness in that is comparing different types of projects or different potential transport solutions. However, the way the current Government policy statement (GPS) is set up, it sets aside the largest share of funding that\u2019s going on new infrastructure or new projects just to be on State highways, and the vast majority of the public transport services and infrastructure budget is to maintain existing services, not to increase services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIt makes it very difficult\u2014it doesn\u2019t really matter what your discount rate is in your evaluation period; if we\u2019re not able to evaluate the relative benefit of spending billions on new State highways, compared to other things like investing in better public transport services, in maintaining and improving safety across the entire road network, and using our existing road assets better through things like congestion pricing or time-of-use charging, then we can\u2019t really make those trade-offs. I\u2019m interested in what the Minister is going to do to enable us to have an approach that enables a more rational assessment of the use of money, rather than dictating it through the GPS, as the current Government has done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0e737c5546d8924a1931b51ac8f5c49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0e737c5546d8924a1931b51ac8f5c49\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (16:51)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member raises an interesting series of issues around transport funding and assurance and the system. What can I say here? I think it would be fair to say that no one is wildly satisfied with the status quo, but changing the system is a big call and is something that requires quite a bit of consideration. I know the New Zealand Infrastructure Commission has made some suggestions around changing the settings. We will be having a look at that as part of the response to the plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOne thing I think that would be useful to do is move to 10-year windows for transport funding. The three-year thing works for no one. It doesn\u2019t really work for central government; it certainly doesn\u2019t work for local councils, who spend their life\u2014as far as I can see\u2014chasing their tail developing regional land transport plans, arguing amongst themselves as mayors. And because we\u2019ve got so many councils and so many mayors, that takes a while. Then they make all their submissions and then they argue again with the New Zealand Transport Agency. Sometimes these are arguments over, like, $\u00A0billion\u2014not $1 billion; sometimes they are, but more often than not it\u2019s $1 million here, $2 million here, this bridge upgrade. I mean, it\u2019s like, just get on with it. If you had a sort of steady State pathway over 10 years, that would be easier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, it is actually difficult to do that because of the way it intersects with the Treasury four-year forecast and rules and the capital allowances and things like that. I suppose that\u2019s kind of a long way of saying the member raises an interesting issue. We don\u2019t have any active policy work under way on it, but it is definitely true that we need to make some improvements over time and I\u2019m very aware of the problems the member raises.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u002200aa2605bac378bc67d91c2972c4a790\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200aa2605bac378bc67d91c2972c4a790\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (16:53)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ve got another question, which is in aviation. I know that Minister Meager is here, so I\u2019ll ask the question in anticipation of a response there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis is around regional routes and regional connectivity. Obviously, regional routes in the aviation sector are the most vulnerable when it comes to times of crisis. Now, we know that the Government had announced a concessionary loans package, and what we\u2019re hearing from aviation providers, airports, and mayors from around the place is that that is no longer satisfactory in terms of meeting the demand and need that\u2019s there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is two questions. Firstly, obviously, Air New Zealand is majority owned by the Crown, so whether there has been any briefing provided around the possibility of that airline requiring any further Crown support; and if so, on what sort of terms that would look like? The other is just in terms of Government plans to secure current permanent routes that exist out in the regions to ensure that they are not compromised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u0022680f52b096235c49b4ad86a961f8133a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022680f52b096235c49b4ad86a961f8133a\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (16:54)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair\u2014thank you for the opportunity. I\u2019m going to start by disappointing the member. In regard to Air New Zealand, that\u2019s questions that would need to go to the shareholding Minister. I don\u2019t receive the briefings in regard to Air New Zealand\u2019s needs. I acknowledge and sympathise with the wider points, which is that the regional connectivity funding which has been available through Minister Jones\u2019 Regional Infrastructure Fund is to stabilise what was already a vulnerable regional airline sector prior to the current fuel crisis. We continue with that funding allocation, but we\u2019re under no illusions as to the fact that it was to provide stability and we need to look further at what we can do to continue to provide confidence in the airline sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIn terms of the routes and providing confidence there, I engage with both Air New Zealand and all regional airlines, really, on a regular basis. In terms of Air New Zealand, they have provided me with reassurances consistently that the changes they are making to their routes right now are temporary to address the current fuel crisis. In terms of the regional airlines, similarly. However, the regionals are in a difficult spot because, of course, they run much fewer routes, so therefore they\u2019ve got less room to move. We\u2019re keeping in constant communication with them. We\u2019re really hoping that this will be an industry-led but partnership response between Government, and maintaining regional connectivity is our number one priority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u0022a09359eb17fc2f54864361c56609c828\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a09359eb17fc2f54864361c56609c828\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (16:55)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, and I thank the Minister for his response around that. Just one final question from me, which is back to Minister Bishop, which is around the changes when it comes to road safety, in relation specifically to speed limit changes. I\u2019m just interested in whether he\u2019s aware as to whether there have been measurements taken in terms of the change in crash rates on roads where speed limits were reinstated at a different level; and, if so, whether there is an ability to have that data released to the public?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe other is just there are some road safety organisations when it comes to concerns around the changes to practical driving tests and replacing the second practical driving test. Just a final question about the evidence that the Government has relied on to ensure that that\u2019s not going to increase crash or safety risk considerations amongst those who are newly licensed drivers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u002288811750602e15ae64582f5272356166\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288811750602e15ae64582f5272356166\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (16:56)\u003C/span\u003E: On the first question, I\u2019m advised that it\u2019s too early to say in relation to the speed limit changes. The New Zealand Transport Agency is monitoring it, obviously, but too early to draw any conclusions. On the second, in relation to changes to the graduated driver licensing, we worked quite hard as part of the package to, I think, come up with a balanced package where the abolition of the second practical test to go from your restricted to your full licence is balanced out by a longer period earlier on in the process and the addition of a couple of\u2014I forget exactly what we added in at the practical restricted test\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278683a807615debd51f5ded59bb5a160\u0022\u003EHon James Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Hours. To reduce the time you can take hours, rather than just\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da2d8567c5bff2b105d758949649dcb0\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, no, I\u2019m just trying to remember. We added something to the actual test\u2014I think it might be hazard monitoring. Anyway, I forget which, but it\u2019s all publicly available. We did come up with a relatively balanced package, I think, that responded to some of the feedback that came through from groups like the AA and others at the time. It\u2019s been pretty widely welcomed. It hasn\u2019t come into effect yet, obviously, but from memory it\u2019s early 2027. We\u2019ve pushed the date out, as well, because there\u2019s a range of logistics to get right over the balance of the year. That will come into effect early next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c86c09b0ff6a22ff0e0a806e95bf0892\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just for your information, this session with the transport Minister is at 5.03 p.m.\u2014this is the scheduled finish. But in the absence of any activity from any participants, we\u2019ll say the time with the Minister of Transport is now ended. The Minister of Housing is now available for one hour to respond to members\u2019 questions. I\u2019ll give the call to the chairman, Joseph Mooney.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9007b376f1233569a62a54112657a\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u2014Annual Review Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u002210a4bdc22483aec0618b8623f8c46a63\u0022\u003EHousing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f0d31505882949b1a768aad60863fba9\u0022 data-id=\u0022a518fa35233828112649d1c3c0db6af2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f0d31505882949b1a768aad60863fba9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a518fa35233828112649d1c3c0db6af2\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (Chairperson of the Social Services and Community Committee) (16:58)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I rise to speak as the Chairperson of the Social Services and Community Committee for the annual reviews of the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development and K\u0101inga Ora for 2024 and 2025. These two entities sit at the heart of our housing system and our committee has conducted thorough examinations of both.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EStarting with the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development, the ministry has undergone significant change this year. Its revenue fell nearly 14 percent and staff numbers dropped from 390 to 292. Despite that, the Auditor-General rated its management controls as very good. A very credible result during a period of restructuring.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOn the Government\u2019s housing commitments, Budget 2024 funded 1,500 new social homes to be delivered by June 2028. Budget 2025 funded a further 550 to 600 in Auckland to be completed by June 2026. As of December 2025, 266 houses across both commitments had been completed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn homelessness, the picture was mixed, and the committee took a careful look at it. The latest homelessness insights data shows the number of people who are living without shelter increased in Auckland, Thames, Hamilton, and Christchurch between March and December 2025; however, in Wellington, Porirua numbers decreased; in several other centres\u2014Whakat\u0101ne, Gisborne, New Plymouth, Masterton, and Palmerston North\u2014they remained the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOn Housing First, a programme supporting the most chronically homeless, the Minister announced 300 additional homes. By December, 90 had been released and 44 households housed. The programme is working better in Auckland, we heard, than Wellington, largely because there are more community housing providers to partner with there. The ministry encouraged private landlords to consider working with Housing First providers, and the committee endorsed that. The ministry also manages around 6,000 transitional housing units nationally, at over 90 percent occupancy, with the Priority One fast track helping move families with children into more permanent housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re also encouraged by the ministry\u2019s improved approach to data and forecasting long-term need, noting that it had not always accurately predicted future growth in places like my region in Queenstown Lakes. We\u2019re encouraged that they are looking at a broader range of metrics rather than just Statistics New Zealand to inform their future data projections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn terms of K\u0101inga Ora, this is an organisation in the middle of a major reset. I want to acknowledge the scale of that work. It has reduced staff by a third, from nearly 3,400 to around 2,285, and exceeded cost-saving targets by $170 million and its peak debt is now predicted to be over $1.5 billion lower than its reset plan forecast, while delivering the same build outcomes. That\u2019s a significant achievement. In 2024/25, it delivered 4,300 new and upgraded homes, exceeding the Minister\u2019s revised target. Its average build cost has trended down from $3,473 per square metre in 2023/24, to $3,290 in the first quarter of 2025. It is doing this through standardised repeatable designs, practical homes that are warm, insulated, and better than hotel rooms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere are areas to watch. Debt remains at nearly $18 billion and is forecast to rise further. The IT system was described to us as \u201Ctied together with string\u201D and in need of modernisation urgently. We want to see audit rating and financial systems and controls improved from \u201Cneeds improvement\u201D, where it has sat for two years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETogether, we saw a programme of major reset happening across the housing sector, which is crucial for this country. Thank you, Mr Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022 data-id=\u00222931fa062b87110575dc6e2f64cfd69d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222931fa062b87110575dc6e2f64cfd69d\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour) (17:02)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I appreciate the opportunity to ask questions of the Minister of Housing. I start with reference to what was in the report and what the chair of the committee just referred to, and that was the financial commitment in Budget 2024 of 1,500 social housing places and an additional 550 for Auckland in Budget 2025. The figures that were included in the report were up to date as of December. Could the Minister, please, give us an update as to how many of those places that were funded in those Budgets have been completed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022 data-id=\u002255f66cd26ce434ba5fa1d7b74e013329\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255f66cd26ce434ba5fa1d7b74e013329\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central) (17:02)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m going to start with local housing \u2013 related questions in relation to this appropriation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe first question I have is on Arlington. The Minister of Housing will remember that when he came to the select committee to answer questions on this Budget, he was asked, \u201CWhat is happening with the 300 homes that had been promised in the Arlington complex here in Mt Cook in Wellington?\u201D He said, at the time\u2014I believe this was last year\u2014that a decision would come in due course. Now, I\u2019ve had feedback that there has indeed been movement on the site and, of course, there are whispers going around that there has been a decision that has been arrived at. Can the Minister, please, share with us what those plans are? Arlington was a large omission in this particular Budget, and our community are still waiting for answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, the other thing that was in the 2024/25 Budget was a lack of certainty or clarity about the destiny, or the future going forward, for single-site supported housing, in terms of Te \u014C in Mt Cook. That is housing for complex, high-needs tenants who rely on both housing and having wraparound support for them. According to the Wellington City Mission, they are not sure about their future going forward and have not got funding. I would like to ask the Minister and his officials, through the Chair: what is the plan going forward for single-site supported housing, given that there are no Budget commitments to it in the 2024/25 Budget, and how are these models meant to proceed? This is housing for people with the highest, most complex social needs. These are people that are grappling with severe mental health issues, severe addition issues\u2014and where are they going to go afterwards if they don\u2019t have access to single-site supported housing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFinally, on local housing issues in relation to this 2024/25 Budget, the Dixon Street Flats\u2014that\u2019s something that\u2019s written about in the text of the document from K\u0101inga Ora. The Dixon Street Flats were owned by K\u0101inga Ora; they sold those in an agreement back to the iwi for a certain amount, and then the iwi went on\u2014I think it was mere days or weeks later\u2014and sold it for, like, double, triple the price that K\u0101inga Ora sold it for. That\u2019s a pretty poor financial decision for the Crown. I don\u2019t know whether you were involved in that decision, Minister, but I\u2019d like to know: how did such a poor financial decision get made in the first place, where you had who the Crown on-sold it to selling it on again, within days\u2014did you have a word with your officials who officiated that sale? That was clearly a really poor commercial decision that resulted in a reduction in public housing available in Wellington, and you just lost millions of dollars for the Crown\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291636beae9d1644e6708a239c0789f87\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s the RFR, baby!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222e6b94c129c359c31a81181b0bc922c\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, so\u2014local Wellington questions, please, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u00229e81418e28d8dcfe999b38ae4401f4c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e81418e28d8dcfe999b38ae4401f4c8\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Housing) (17:06)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, let me deal with the four things that have been raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn relation to the social housing delivery in Auckland, the latest, as of March 2026, is: 211 homes delivered of the Budget 2024 social housing; 228 from the Budget 2025 social housing, which was specifically for Auckland. I\u2019m told that, since November 2023, 2,600 net new social houses have been added in Auckland, and we are on track to meet the commitment for an additional increase of 3,000 by the end of November 2026. That\u2019s the advice I\u2019ve received.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn relation to Arlington, nothing has changed since I last talked to the member about this. We are working away on it. Just to remind the committee of the brief background here, this is a piece of land that K\u0101inga Ora has leased from the council, and the plan back in the day was to put 300 social homes or apartments on there at around $296 million, which is $1 million per apartment. That was expensive back then, but then the plan blew out to $420 million, so $1.3 million or $1.4 million per apartment. Even the last Government blanched at that extravagant price, and the project was paused and delayed. If the member has complaints about Arlington, she should direct them to the Hon Megan Woods, who was the relevant Minister at the time\u2014and, indeed, the Cabinet, because it requires Cabinet sign-off. The land is being looked at by K\u0101inga Ora for future use. It is a challenging site, which is partly why it\u2019s so expensive to build on, but they are looking at exactly what they can do there. I hope to have more to say in due course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn relation to single-site supported housing both at Te \u014C and other places, there are ongoing discussions on the future of Te \u014C with Wellington City Mission and K\u0101inga Ora. I know the member is a supporter of Wellington City Mission, as am I. Both of them are pilots. I\u2019m probably limited a bit in what more I can say than that. There are discussions under way around the future of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn relation to the Dixon Street Flats\u2014well, I thought the member supported the Treaty settlement process! The Dixon Street Flats are an example of the right of first refusal (RFR) process which K\u0101inga Ora went to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022747345b09a81c886055ed8e088930610\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not the process; it\u2019s the price.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e49231235331ad54740808c8cd98019\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, this is the RFR. Like, this is what happens. This is the way it works. Yes, the iwi have profited from that, but I thought the member was for rangatiratanga and economic development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257ed7b6788368defbcb7433e5416e7f5\u0022\u003EHon Tama Potaka\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right, and mana motuhake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1648297564b8ba3ddc41237cd44e6ff\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: And mana motuhake, as my friend Tama Potaka says. It\u2019s an interesting attitude from the member. The member asked, \u201CDid the Minister sign off on it?\u201D The answer is: no, I didn\u2019t; it was an operational decision made by K\u0101inga Ora and the board. At the end of the day, the Dixon Street Flats weren\u2019t occupied, by the way\u2014so the member also implied that there\u2019d been a deduction in\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022448d424fd647129927ed81fb98c393f6\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: No, I know that bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b0abcb731de0cb92a54b05aa784e95d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, you know that. OK. Well, you implied that there\u2019d been a reduction in social housing as result of it, but there hasn\u2019t been, because they were unoccupied. Everyone was decanted\u2014that awful word that\u2019s used when it relates to people leaving housing; people were \u201Cdecanted\u201D, as if they were a glass of red wine, out of social housing. They were unoccupied, they were earthquake-prone, and a hazard, frankly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThey\u2019re now being developed. I went and saw the site the other day, actually. It\u2019s good new housing for Wellington. Ian Cassels was there, and he\u2019s hoping to build, basically, single studio apartments primarily for younger people in Wellington, but anyone can live there. It will be good for that part of the city, as I\u2019m sure the member will appreciate, and it removes a liability from K\u0101inga Ora\u2019s balance sheet. In relation to what I had involvement with on that, \u201Cnothing\u201D is the short answer. It was an issue for the K\u0101inga Ora board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022 data-id=\u0022196ba478cc7f740e7253f82db58bc71b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022196ba478cc7f740e7253f82db58bc71b\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour) (17:10)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s great to hear the Minister\u2019s got his head around tino rangatiratanga and mana motuhake, so I want to congratulate him on that. It\u2019s good to hear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis is more in the M\u0101ori housing space for Minister Potaka, I would say: on page\u00A039 of the annual report, it records a $40 million baseline saving from new supply and capability of M\u0101ori housing. I ask the Minister: how can he claim to be improving outcomes for M\u0101ori when his Government\u2019s first move was to rip funding out of the M\u0101ori housing supply and provider capability? This was one of the biggest complaints from M\u0101ori providers. It\u2019s just a question that is constantly coming up from M\u0101ori providers, so I\u2019m just asking the Minister where he is with regard to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThen, page 15 boasts that $426 million has been committed to M\u0101ori providers, for approximately 1,000 homes to be delivered by 2026-27. How many have been built so far, and is he on track to delivering another 1,000 homes by next year? Just a couple of specific questions for the Minister\u2014I would presume Minister Potaka\u2014to respond to. What is his current relationship with some of these M\u0101ori providers who I can see have been shut down? Yes, there is some involvement, but what is the current position? A couple of questions for the Minister there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022 data-id=\u00224a426c1388403198a8e64345eaa865b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a426c1388403198a8e64345eaa865b7\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA (Associate Minister of Housing) (17:12)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Just in response to the various noble questions of the member opposite, the $40 million savings are related back to a savings effort in 2024, and many, many portfolios had to, essentially, offer savings up across nearly all the ministries, actually\u2014nearly all the Crown agencies. That was addressed in a variety of select committee discussions with the member and other members in the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee. It was a saving that was made. Some p\u016Btea, of course, across different years, has been saved and used to cost-proof transitional and other forms of housing which have a disproportionately high number of M\u0101ori wh\u0101nau living in that type of housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAs we might recall\u2014the member opposite might recall this\u2014the cost for transitional and other housing was not cost-proofed to account for inflation. As a result of some of the savings that were made across the M\u0101ori housing portfolio, these were reinvested back into areas of the housing spectrum that have disproportionately high wh\u0101nau M\u0101ori living in them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere have been a variety of announcements. In fact, I just went to Ohakune two days ago to open 10 houses in the Korokio development just off Shannon Street in Ohakune, up by the Powderkeg. Some of you might recall that place, and the Hot Lava. There have been around about 1,000 houses approved under the current Government to be delivered through M\u0101ori housing. Of that, about 300 have been carried through to code compliance certification (CCC). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn terms of the 1,000 that we inherited from the previous Government, about 800 have been built. There are still some to be built that were approved by the previous Government. These things don\u2019t all happen in a day; they take a while to get consented, and sometimes additional finance to be found, but, essentially, 1,000 new homes under M\u0101ori housing under the previous Government, most of which have been built; 1,000 new homes which have been approved and contracted under the current Government or thereabouts; and around 200 to 300 of those have reached CCC. But for the most part, most of the projects are going in accordance to plan, apart from sometimes weather interventions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022 data-id=\u002297ab4fb911386a89f6fef994aacb2851\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297ab4fb911386a89f6fef994aacb2851\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central) (17:15)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. My questions might be better answered by the Associate Minister of Housing, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOne of the initiatives that I understand was funded through this Budget is the youth outreach service run by M\u0101hera Maihi in T\u0101maki. I just wanted to ask the Minister what he\u2019s seen from that programme, whether he thinks it\u2019s been successful, whether it\u2019s something that they might be looking into rolling out across the country, and what he is hearing from youth transitional housing providers across the country in terms of their need and what they would like to see in upcoming Budgets. I\u2019m interested to hear about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EM\u0101hera Maihi recently won New Zealander of the Year, so she\u2019s being recognised for her awesome mahi. I hope that that\u2019s something that K\u0101inga Ora and the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development\u2014well, mostly MHUD\u2014would be keen to get behind supporting financially so that it might be expanded to other places.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EJust on the appropriations for transitional housing places, those were increased by 300 in this Budget; however, the need at the time, I believe, was around 965 people waiting for transitional housing places. Is the Minister looking to expand on those numbers in the upcoming Budget to make sure that more places are available? When the Government announced those 300 additional places, what was the criteria they were using in allocating those? I understand there was a focus in T\u0101maki. How did you come up with that allocation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m especially interested, as someone based down here in Wellington who understands that rough sleeping has increased 24 percent. I just want to understand how you made that call, given homelessness and rough sleeping is increasing in lots of places across the country. I\u2019m keen to understand the policy rationale behind that allocation. I\u2019ll leave that one there, because those are the ones that are relevant to the Associate Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022 data-id=\u0022b47c98635444357c1081501e18fa0483\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b47c98635444357c1081501e18fa0483\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA (Associate Minister of Housing) (17:17)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just address, I think, a variety of questions that were baked into the member opposite\u2019s k\u014Drero. First of all, there are a lot of people doing it hard in housing, no doubt. That\u2019s borne out by census statistics over many years, as well as data gathering that the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development and others have done, and observations that have been made by councils and housing providers and others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe view that rough sleeping has increased is, I think, one that cannot be generalised across the country. I think in some places, actually, there have been some serious improvements, and in some places there have been some challenges. If you talk, for example, to Adrian Wilson, who is the manager at Auckland Council who has been responsible in this space for the last 10 years, he will attest that there were around 400 folks living rough in the central Auckland area 10 years ago. It came down to 200, and now it\u2019s down to about 25 to 30. That\u2019s borne out in the daily counts that his officials and others undertake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOf course, I\u2019ve been out on the street with Roimata and Ansh, who are the main people who walk the street on the wake-up call at 6 to 6.30 every single morning on weekdays, at least in Auckland City. They have said that the work we\u2019ve done around Housing First, improving the outreach and the transitional funding support, has had a remarkable difference in the numbers of people living rough on the streets in Tamaki-makau-rau in the central business district area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn terms of the allocation for the Housing First 300\u2014and might I add that I think it\u2019s today, actually, nearly 600 people have been through those 300 and additional existing places that existed in Housing First. Minister Bishop and I made that announcement in September, an extra 300 funded places of Housing First baseline into the future. As a result of that, not only did existing places that weren\u2019t filled get filled as a result of the accountability measures that the agencies have undertaken with providers but we also started seeing a number of people coming off rough sleeping, off the street, and into those Housing First places. As I said, so far, circa 600 have come off that rough sleeping space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn addition to that, around 200-plus have come off a very difficult place, rough sleeping, into transitional housing as a result of the Ministry of Social Development\u2019s tactical plan to up the ante to tautoko those that are doing it rough on the street. The allocations: T\u0101maki, 207; Hamilton, 31; Wellington, 35; and Christchurch, 26, were done on the basis of engagement with housing providers and others who operate in the Housing First space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOf course, Christchurch filled very quickly, and I acknowledge the member opposite, Mr Webb\u2019s, comments about concerns of rough sleeping in Christchurch; it filled up very quickly. T\u0101maki, we\u2019ve got 200-plus of the 207 places that are now leased and tenanted. Hamilton and Wellington have been a lot slower, which is a bit surprising considering there are a lot of people that we\u2019ve been told are sleeping on the street, but the Housing First providers haven\u2019t necessarily activated their leased places into tenanted and leased places. My expectation of those that have the Housing First contracts for those 35 places in Wellington and 31 in Hamilton is that we will accelerate that as soon as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI acknowledge M\u0101hera Maihi and her work at M\u0101 Te Huruhuru. M\u0101 Te Huruhuru received some funding out of the Outreach money\u2014around $10 million that was provided in the current financial year. The call from many of those in the youth space is that there needs to be more funding. What I\u2019d like to see is the housing providers working closely with Outreach and with other providers, like the Hamilton Christian Night Shelter, like M\u0101 Te Huruhuru, to make sure the funds that are there already are used as efficiently and effectively as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022 data-id=\u00222118a1dc996ba8b314941b6acd4681ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222118a1dc996ba8b314941b6acd4681ba\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri) (17:21)\u003C/span\u003E: Just a quick question to the Associate Minister. We know that some of the fast-track projects are retirement villages, which have occupational rights agreements. There are 55,000 residents currently in retirement villages, so there\u2019s going to be a burgeoning retirement village market for those occupational rights agreements. There will also be, under his proposals, as he said in the media, an incentive for operators to sell. There\u2019ll be a requirement under his law to sell the agreements when the law comes into effect for new residents. That is going to leave existing residents currently worse off than they currently are. Currently, for existing residents, there is no mandated repayment time for their capital repayment. Under his law, it\u2019s going to be 12 months, but these existing residents will now be last cab off the rank.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EMy questions are: how is that fair to existing residents when they\u2019re going to be worse off? How can he say that this is retrospective and can\u2019t be applied, when, actually, other parts of his legislation will be applied, such as repairs and maintenance? Finally, if a vast number of New Zealanders see three months as a fairer repayment time, which is in my member\u2019s bill, would he consider reducing the repayment time, given that he seems to have arbitrarily chosen one year, which is what the operators want and which may not reflect what is fair to residents and also what most New Zealanders may want? Would he reconsider if there was evidence that most New Zealanders want that time frame to be shorter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022 data-id=\u0022289cf05c4e2d168c01d9feea3da1d09a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022289cf05c4e2d168c01d9feea3da1d09a\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA (Associate Minister of Housing) (17:23)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for that question from the member opposite. The proposal around time frames for repayments have been set and proposed at 12 months for mandatory repayment. In fact, some retirement villages do repay earlier no matter what the status of the occupational rights agreement happens to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe second thing is that there is a needs-based assessment also. If people are in serious need of funding, often the retirement villages\u2014and, actually, the agencies\u2014intervene in that situation and provide some support, particularly where they might be moving to a more difficult part of their lives through aged care and hospitals. I don\u2019t think all retirement villages are the same. As part of the proposal also we\u2019ve suggested for carrying through to the appropriate drafting an interest repayment at six months, so if an occupational rights agreement is not sold, interest will be repayable to the owner of that occupational rights agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn regards to the retrospective issues\u2014whether or not we would apply the proposals to retrospectively go into contracts that are already existing\u2014we are not for the mandatory repayments considering the massive material impacts that would have on liquidity and other dynamics that would accrue to the retirement village operators, and the flow-on consequences and effects that they may have, particularly with the provision of aged care and the nature of the thin margins, if margins at all, and small trusts. That would have a massive disincentive for people, particularly in small towns and rural and provincial areas throughout the country, actually deploying retirement villages and retirement villas into that space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt is moving towards a bill to be introduced in due course. No doubt we will get select committee feedback and submissions, but, overall, we\u2019re trying to strike the right balance between those who have occupational rights agreements and live in these villages. Some things are a little bit easier to apply retrospectively\u2014let\u2019s say, stopping weekly fees when people actually move out of the villas\u2014but once you start saying there\u2019s a retrospective arrangement for the mandatory repayments of the value of an occupational rights agreement, that has significant liquidity and other impacts, which I encourage the member to investigate and research.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e225c8486203a27eb29f7a775846cc00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e225c8486203a27eb29f7a775846cc00\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central) (17:25)\u003C/span\u003E: I have a question for the Minister of Housing. In the annual review report, there\u2019s a lot about the K\u0101inga Ora reset programme. There\u2019s a lot about financial sustainability, divestment, sales, etc., reduction in staff, redeployment of money: all of the different efforts that have been directed by the Minister in order for K\u0101inga Ora to save costs. I imagine that the cancellation or pausing of various K\u0101inga Ora projects before this annual review was also a reflection of looking for cost savings within K\u0101inga Ora. I want to ask the Minister: based on this kind of rationale, since this annual review, has the Minister or his officials or Cabinet considered any reviews of accommodation supplement amounts or the income-related rent subsidy rate as an attempt to save costs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u00223ba8fe31fb61b13599ba2c8613fb96b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ba8fe31fb61b13599ba2c8613fb96b2\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Housing) (17:26)\u003C/span\u003E: In relation to K\u0101inga Ora, we are proud of the work that has happened there. There\u2019s a variety of views across the House around that agency, but certainly the view of the Government was that it was underperforming and not delivering good value for money, and also not delivering for its tenants either, frankly. In fact, tenancy satisfaction is up since the changes, and build costs are coming down and savings have been made. The reality is that K\u0101inga Ora\u2019s debt track is now $10 billion less than what it was three years ago. That\u2019s $10 billion less that the taxpayer has to fund or borrow. That is, by any stretch, quite a significant achievement. I take my hat off to the chair and the former chief executive, who\u2019s now left, and the team at K\u0101inga Ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think it would be fair to say that one of the things we are doing some thinking about is how the new investment plan\u2014in fact, we\u2019ve published the first one\u2014framework fits in with K\u0101inga Ora. The Crown has around 78,000 houses; roughly 192,000 people live in those houses. Big, aged stock\u2014you know, very old, much of it. There\u2019s now quite an emphasis going on with retrofitting and upgrading the existing stock, which, if you look at what the national infrastructure plan from the commission has said, is something that should be a real focus. We\u2019re doing quite a lot of work around that, but the intention for new housing investment from the Crown is to get much more granular around where we build and what we build. I think we\u2019re making progress on the where and the what. We\u2019ve taken a real focus on housing need, and the officials have done quite a good granular analysis of looking at the precise regions where there is real need on the wait-list, but also where rents are quite out of whack with the market. We\u2019ve announced that. Take the East Coast, for example, as one of the priority areas. There\u2019s not a lot of social housing there. Also, Northland\u2014and I see the member for Northland in the Chamber\u2014where there is real deprivation when it comes to social housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat obviously means there are limited sums of money. Not everyone can get new social housing, but we have tried to focus on building in the right places. In terms of the \u201Cwhat\u201D, we are also trying to build the right typology. Fifty percent of people on the register need a one-bedroom unit or want a two-bedroom unit, but we haven\u2019t, up until now, been building those. Of the Budget 2024 and Budget 2025 funding, from memory, I think it\u2019s 88 percent of the homes being delivered that are one or two bedrooms, so that\u2019s good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhere I\u2019d like to take the system to is getting much more granular about the \u201Cwho\u201D, because I think we all know there are some people for whom I think reasonable people would say, \u201CSocial housing is for you.\u201D You\u2019ve got a disability, you might have mental health challenges, you might have a range of life circumstances that mean you deserve extra support and the Government should give you some extra support. The system is, at the moment, far too non-responsive to individual circumstances. Everyone gets a number, it\u2019s largely based around affordability, not actually based on individual circumstances. Everyone gets a number from A20 through to B8\u2014it\u2019s the most dehumanising system on the planet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why you end up with situations like the poor guy in New Plymouth who was living in a motel with his kid and in a wheelchair, and all he needed was a social house. And he waited three years to get out of the motel into a social house while the social house was developed. And then ACC farted around for nine months trying to put a ramp on the house and he had to deal with the council for six months to get a resource consent for a ramp for a social house so he could get out of a motel. Like it\u2019s just a microcosm of everything wrong with New Zealand when you\u2019ve got a guy living in a motel for three years with his kid in a wheelchair and all he needs is a social house and he needs the system to not treat him as some problem to be left in a motel. He needs the system to be responsive to him to get him into a house and sort out his ramp so he can live with dignity. That\u2019s what I get up in the morning to try and fix.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7b10da1725895f94914fdad8594a4c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7b10da1725895f94914fdad8594a4c0\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour) (17:31)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I found it extraordinary that Tama Potaka is trying to convince us that there\u2019s only 24 homeless people in Auckland. Yet the front-line providers are telling him to his face that those numbers are inaccurate, that they are wrong, and then they\u2019re going and telling us what they\u2019ve said to the Minister, and he doesn\u2019t care because that number suits his narrative. If they are indeed liaising with front-line providers, they would be up front with New Zealanders and say that there has been an unprecedented increase in rough sleeping.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThey cannot have it both ways. They can\u2019t, on one hand, say there\u2019s only 24 people that are rough sleeping in Auckland, but also there are so many that we need to bring on the move-on orders\u2014because it\u2019s such an issue. My question is specifically in regards to the advice that the Ministers have received from the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development on the move-on orders: was it supportive of that proposal? Did they support the inclusion of rough sleepers, and if not, why, as Ministers, have they not advocated for the focus of these move-on orders to be on antisocial behaviour like they have billed, instead of including those who have found themselves unable to get emergency housing and are sleeping rough?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4a4a0e84991218fbef7495f341f162f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4a4a0e84991218fbef7495f341f162f\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central) (17:33)\u003C/span\u003E: I didn\u2019t get a straight answer to my question: is the Government, is the Minister, or is his officials considering adjusting the amount of the accommodation supplement or the income-related rent subsidy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022 data-id=\u002238655d7d8d8e26d15e8c5ae2c715d5ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238655d7d8d8e26d15e8c5ae2c715d5ed\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour) (17:33)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, Mr Chair, just further to Kieran McAnulty\u2019s call with regards to what\u2019s happening with rough sleepers. I want to ask Minister Potaka: what\u2019s the response he\u2019s had from iwi leaders? Because iwi leaders have been quite adamant in terms of what\u2019s happening with our people being moved out on to the street. We\u2019ve not only had community organisations, but we\u2019ve had iwi leaders been quite adamant that the housing policies are not working for our people, who are being thrown out and being set up as\u2014well just chucked out, basically. We don\u2019t know where they are, but the iwi leaders along with so many community groups are saying that these people are being thrown out on the streets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI also want to come to page 20. I\u2019ll just the Minister Potaka; the ministry notes that there are now 36 registered M\u0101ori Community Housing Providers, up from 19 in 2021. That being the case, why is the Government cutting M\u0101ori housing baselines\u2014on page 39\u2014instead of backing those providers to scale up and actually get more wh\u0101nau M\u0101ori into permanent homes? Just a further question for the Minister, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022 data-id=\u002274bf4e5b3fcc2ad4df47850d23511da5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274bf4e5b3fcc2ad4df47850d23511da5\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri) (17:34)\u003C/span\u003E: Just keen to get some more fulsome answers from Minister Potaka regarding a couple of things he said in the exchange that we had. First he said that there is a difference in applying the proposed laws regarding capital repayments versus repairs and maintenance, that it was significantly different. I\u2019d like to understand, apart from the impact on operators, where that legal difference is and whether he got any advice on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ESecondly, I asked him about what he thinks ordinary New Zealanders would think of the situation. Clearly he has been listening to the operators and the financial woes that they have been telling him they would endure as a result of his proposed 12-month mandated period. But he didn\u2019t answer the question: what does he think ordinary New Zealanders think about this? And if there was an overwhelming number of ordinary New Zealanders who feel upset by the unfairness of this law, would he consider changing it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3970da8afbdf1c621d2fc1595f289b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3970da8afbdf1c621d2fc1595f289b2\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central) (17:35)\u003C/span\u003E: I just wanted to ask for a third time and see if I get another non-answer: is the Minister, the Government, Cabinet, or his officials considering adjusting the income-related rent subsidy amount or the accommodation supplement amount? And if he doesn\u2019t answer again, that\u2019s basically an answer for me. Thanks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022 data-id=\u0022eaea7b031522112ad640866ecea5a6a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eaea7b031522112ad640866ecea5a6a7\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA (Associate Minister of Housing) (17:36)\u003C/span\u003E: Just a couple of quick answers, particularly to recalibrate some of the assumptions that others have made. I did not say anything connecting the R and M issue\u2014repairs and maintenance\u2014with capital repayments, and the member might want to check the record on what I did say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn relation to ordinary New Zealanders, most ordinary New Zealanders believe in the sanctity of contract, particularly when it comes to material provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn relation to the comments on homelessness, again to recalibrate, Mr McAnulty, actually if you go to speak with people like K\u0101hui T\u016B Kaha and Auckland Council, who walk the streets of Auckland Central like I did, and what I\u2019ve been told Mr McAnulty fails to do when he goes to visit people, they will tell you that actually the homelessness number, people rough sleeping in central Auckland has come down considerably. And particularly as a direct result of the announcements and the mahi Minister Bishop, myself, and the agencies have undertaken in the last six months. I\u2019d like to acknowledge the agencies while I\u2019m standing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn relation to the rough sleepers vis-\u00E0-vis iwi leaders, there are a range of iwi leaders. Most recently Sunday morning Tomairangi Mareikura and Helen Leahy\u2014absolutely abusive of the support that this Government has given Ng\u0101ti Rangi to build houses. Ditto Tia Ashby and others at Te Kohekohe; ditto David Thomas and Ray Morrison; and ditto Willie Te Aho, famous Te Aitanga a Mahaki and Te Wh\u0101nau-\u0101-Apanui leader who\u2019s been absolutely brilliant in deploying cabins out at Te Araroa and Wharekahika as a result of the inclement weather. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMany, many iwi and M\u0101ori organisational leaders are absolutely celebratory of this Government\u2019s commitment to support M\u0101ori housing, and actually, to continue to be agile in the face of rising costs and a range of other things that continue to confront the economy. And you can speak to the iwi leaders yourself if you need to, but I\u2019m sure Mr McAnulty would need to be introduced to them by Willie Jackson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022 data-id=\u002218440776a8df7e14e4b74e3839669aa4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218440776a8df7e14e4b74e3839669aa4\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri) (17:38)\u003C/span\u003E: Two final questions to the Minister. Based on that exchange, is he saying that none of his proposed laws will apply to existing contracts? And secondly, does he believe that more people are concerned about what he calls sanctity of contract than they are about the fairness of the retirement village repayment laws?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022 data-id=\u0022db293496f6d1579164902462eb628603\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db293496f6d1579164902462eb628603\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA (Associate Minister of Housing) (17:38)\u003C/span\u003E: In relation to the second question, I actually attend retirement villages and other places of importance in this particular issue and many, many residents are absolutely certain that the sanctity of contracts should prevail and retrospectively applying a mandated repayment timetable in the nature that the member has suggested in her own proposals is completely inappropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u002208ab0f8b7652fb78aa702020888f1506\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208ab0f8b7652fb78aa702020888f1506\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Housing) (17:39)\u003C/span\u003E: I just wanted to address Tamatha Paul\u2019s question. We are always interested in looking at funding settings in relation to social housing, as what I was trying to indicate to the member through my answers in relation to Kainga Ora and the wider housing picture through the investment plan is that over the last two or three years\u2014two and a bit years since we came into Government\u2014we have conducted quite a thorough scale review of almost every aspect of housing policy, particularly our funding settings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIn relation to the accommodation supplement, it is true to say that the most recent changes to the accommodation supplement are, from memory, in 2018, based on 2016 relative rents around the country. There\u2019s four\u2014it\u2019s complicated, like everything is in housing\u2014there\u2019s four different areas and they haven\u2019t been updated for a large number of years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259cbe8f1d196f7420623833a43ae3347\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before our next call, this part of the debate is scheduled to finish at 5.58 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022 data-id=\u002289b57c8b7f8d6f9841da4ab3067560ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289b57c8b7f8d6f9841da4ab3067560ba\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour) (17:40)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, sir. That was a fascinating response from Minister Potaka there. He didn\u2019t address any of the questions, didn\u2019t want to talk about move-on orders, didn\u2019t want to talk about the advice that the ministry has given him, and I think we know why. Because the ministry has advised these Ministers that targeting rough sleeping by simply moving them on and potentially fining them does not have the support of the ministry. In fact, the only people it has the support of is Viv Beck and Sunny Kaushal. So I ask the Minister again: why have they included rough sleeping into a provision that has been billed as addressing antisocial behaviour, when his own ministry has advised against this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFascinating. So he\u2019s quite happy to stand up and have a crack at me personally, but he\u2019s not happy to answer a very simple question. I think I know why. If I was to look at the list of ministries and agencies that have opposed this, it actually tells the story. This Government is proposing move-on orders as a solution to antisocial behaviour but is deliberately including the provision of rough sleeping and the ability for those that are sleeping rough to be fined as a way of sweeping the issue under the carpet, so that they can make false claims, inaccurate claims, claims that front-line providers have told me and him are wrong that there are only 24 people sleeping rough in Auckland. I mean, who on this Earth is going to believe that? When you\u2019ve got the Ministry of Social Development, Ministry of Justice, Police, Treasury, the Police Association, the Criminal Bar Association, New Zealand Council for Civil Liberties\u2014crucially\u2014the Auckland City Mission, Wellington\u2019s downtown community mission, Lifewise, Kick Back, Community Housing Aotearoa, all of whom are saying that homelessness has increased under this Government. Except the Minister. He just claims different.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe list actually goes on. Why have the housing Ministers stood by and allowed the provision of rough sleeping to be included in the move-on orders and why won\u2019t they consider removing rough sleeping and focusing move-on orders solely on antisocial behaviour, like they\u2019re telling New Zealanders they\u2019re actually about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022 data-id=\u00226630e4edef452c0ff9c13c692032ac3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226630e4edef452c0ff9c13c692032ac3f\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA (Associate Minister of Housing) (17:42)\u003C/span\u003E: Let me recalibrate again some of the inaccuracies of the member\u2019s statement that I said there were 25 people sleeping rough across Auckland\u2014that\u2019s not what I said. What I said is that it is reported by Auckland Council and backed up by K\u0101hui T\u016B Kaha\u2014the largest transitional housing provider in Auckland\u2014that there are around 20 to 25 regularly counted rough sleepers in central Auckland. Central Auckland is a subset of a broader Auckland area, and I\u2019d encourage the member from Pah\u012Batua to visit Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe second thing is that the move-on orders are not within the ambit and the policy directive of the housing portfolio\u2014they\u2019re actually with the justice portfolio. I recommend that the member ask the justice Minister when it\u2019s that portfolio\u2019s turn in this House to respond to these questions around the content of that proposed legislation. My expectation is that the Government agencies and others will continue to work closely with housing providers who are doing a sterling job, at times, around trying to help people in need and also collaborate with K\u0101inga Ora with its refocused attention on delivering to those in need to ensure that there\u2019s appropriate housing supplied for those who need it in the right place with the right typology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb57814e93c6f723c93e2f688a068255\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb57814e93c6f723c93e2f688a068255\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour) (17:43)\u003C/span\u003E: It is indeed an issue for the Minister of Justice, but it is also entirely appropriate for us to ask you as Minister about advice that you\u2019ve received. Now, the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development provided advice to you on this, and they advised against it. So it is entirely appropriate for us to ask you why you have not opposed the provision of rough sleeping, as per the advice that you received from your own officials.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022 data-id=\u002210db54e8bd900d5596327737afbd5105\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210db54e8bd900d5596327737afbd5105\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA (Associate Minister of Housing) (17:44)\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows that the discussions within Cabinet committees and within Cabinet are confidential.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022 data-id=\u00222143ffb76e8fef743bd3ca0cc9df3338\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222143ffb76e8fef743bd3ca0cc9df3338\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour) (17:44)\u003C/span\u003E: So there we have it. Essentially an admission that the inclusion of rough sleeping, against the advice of the Minister\u2019s own officials, is purely a PR exercise to make it look like there are fewer rough sleepers than there actually are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ENow, let\u2019s look at the facts: front-line providers across the board have indicated that homelessness has increased at unprecedented levels because of this Government\u2019s policies. They have pointed to the Government changing the entry criteria to emergency housing that has led to this unprecedented rise in homelessness. So I have a very simple question for the Minister. We talked about the provision of social housing places in Budget 2024 and in Budget 2025. Now, they are nowhere near on track of getting delivered by the time line that they set themselves: 211 out of 1,500 so far. But we know about that investment and we know about the investment in Housing First. I\u2019m keen to know the total figure of investment in new housing from this Government and how that compares to the $1 billion that this Government has saved from changing the entry criteria to emergency housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f546eef649c132c613cb76195784f5c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f546eef649c132c613cb76195784f5c6\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Housing) (17:45)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s comparing two different things for starters. One, emergency housing continues to be available for those who need it. From memory, we\u2019re down to 471\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256de28178b14624ce507c9a1e16b9079\u0022\u003EHon Tama Potaka\u003C/span\u003E: 460.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022865e99db7e14e06a255bb7f08fc6f711\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014460, Mr Potaka says. When we came in it was around 3,000. Those people have been moved out of those motels not because the entry criteria has changed for that, but because the Priority One process started, which said, \u201CIf you have been in an emergency housing motel for 12 weeks or longer with children, that is a disaster, so you go to the top of the social housing waitlist.\u201D We\u2019ve moved over 2,100 families with kids out of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ad216a5e21321b76ccbfbf345e33c53\u0022\u003EHon Tama Potaka\u003C/span\u003E: 2,300.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286ab9a26c71955074e5096b4ffe88194\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u20142,300, Mr Potaka says\u20142,300 families out of motels and into social houses. So that\u2019s why the numbers have gone down. Now, that has created savings. Technically, they flow through the annual adjustments by the Ministry of Social Development\u2014the forecasts. It\u2019s technical Treasury accounting stuff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe have invested in additional social housing, as the member knows. In Budget 2024, we scrapped the First Home Grant scheme and put the money into 1,500 new places. In Budget 2025, we invested in an additional 550 places on top of that. I\u2019ve publicly said before I\u2019m keen to try and get a smooth social housing pipeline into the future, because one of the things the sector says to me is the constant\u2014and this is true under the last Government and this Government. Well, we\u2019ve tried to get that pipeline going already, but certainly big dollops of money that just get chucked into the system every two or three years are not helpful. What\u2019s required is constant, ongoing funding so that people can plan ahead for the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe member says we\u2019re miles behind on the delivery. I mean, that\u2019s not true. The Budget 2024 money started on 1 July 2025, so we\u2019re 10 months into that period. And then the Budget 2025 money started relatively quickly and some of those places have been coming available. As I\u2019ve said to the member before, it takes time to build houses. You can\u2019t just turn them on, turn them off overnight. It does take\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec864441464dd21f8a12777f6336a7af\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: You turned them off pretty overnight, all right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f0598dee17d12dfd1ba78dfbf479c36\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, one of the problems that K\u0101inga Ora is facing when it comes to the delivery of social housing is consenting delays. Again, get this\u2014what a microcosm of everything wrong with this country. K\u0101inga Ora is trying to build simple, low-cost\u2014I\u2019d prefer it to be even lower cost\u2014affordable houses for people around the country. And do you know what they spend their life doing? Arguing with councils about whether or not having the concrete the same colour as the grass is acceptable. I kid you not. They spend their life arguing whether or not the pipe colour on the external wall facing the street should be allowed. They spend their life arguing about whether or not there is enough signage on the property for people to know that it is a housing development owned by K\u0101inga Ora. These are real-life examples, and I\u2019ve got screeds of them, of K\u0101inga Ora arguing with councils about the most petty, minor matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EOf course, always what happens is inevitably, at the end of the 20-day period, some council boffin goes back and says, \u201COh, we\u2019re a bit unhappy about this; we don\u2019t like that; and could you just do another consultant report on that; and we\u2019re just doing a request for information on that; and, oh, it turns out we\u2019ve got to restart the clock.\u201D So days, hours, and hundreds of thousands of dollars of time and money are being spent by K\u0101inga Ora, dealing with councils, when all they\u2019re trying to do is build social housing. It just drives you demented, to be honest\u2014it drives you absolutely demented. And they tell me\u2014and I\u2019ve had advice on this from K\u0101inga Ora\u2014that one of the reasons why they\u2019re struggling in a few regions to deliver on their build targets that we set for them is council consenting problems. What a classic microcosm of everything wrong with this country. So that\u2019s another reason to fix the Resource Management Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022 data-id=\u002249d66cb593da25c19c62a4453b138a05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249d66cb593da25c19c62a4453b138a05\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour) (17:50)\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister has made a claim, yet again, that those in need can access emergency housing. Everybody knows that\u2019s not true. In fact, Jill Hawkey from the Christchurch Methodist Mission specifically said that Chris Bishop\u2019s claim that those in need can access emergency housing \u201Csimply isn\u2019t true.\u201D Now, if I was saying something that isn\u2019t accurate and I got called out by a key stakeholder, like Jill Hawkey, that, well, basically I\u2019m not telling the truth, I\u2019d stop. But they\u2019re just carrying it on with this myth. Every front-line provider that I have spoken to\u2014and unlike Minister Potaka, I don\u2019t dismiss this feedback; I take it as fact, because why would they lie?\u2014has told me that the changes to entry in emergency housing have been the largest driver of the numbers going down because they simply cannot get in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAs a result of that, according to the Minister of Finance\u2019s own statement, this Government has saved a billion dollars, yet, if you look at the investment that it has made in new housing places\u2014$140\u00A0million in Budget 2024; significantly less than Budget 2025\u2014that doesn\u2019t compare. The Government\u2019s record on housing in this respect is quite clear cut: they are saving money by keeping people on the street, and they are putting a fraction into new houses\u2014211 this Government have funded that have led to a new house from the 2024 allocation, and 228 from the 2025 allocation. Even the 300 Housing First places that were announced six months ago haven\u2019t been fully allocated. The funding record of this Government in terms of housing is shocking, and yet the Ministers are refusing to acknowledge that their own department is advising against the move-on orders because they simply are moving the issue from one area to the next.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve had confirmation from the Ministers as to how many houses actually have been built under this Government\u2014211 from the funding in Budget 2024; 228 from the funding in Budget 2025. How many of the Housing First places that were announced six months ago have been filled, and how many of the subsequent 300 have been filled?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022 data-id=\u00229c37041e2da895596e1a75494701c327\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c37041e2da895596e1a75494701c327\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour) (17:52)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, as we\u2019re coming to a close, I just want to chuck a couple more questions to Minister Potaka. Given the real shortage in terms of M\u0101ori homeownership at the moment, looking on page 31, M\u0101ori homeownership is still lagging very much behind the general population. Where in the report is there a single policy that points to an uplift in terms of M\u0101ori homeownership? I want to ask the Minister: is there any strategy in terms of M\u0101ori homeownership at the moment? I also want to repeat my earlier question. On page 20, the ministry notes there are now 36 registered M\u0101ori community housing providers from 19 and 21. Why is his Government cutting M\u0101ori housing baselines, instead of backing those providers to scale up and actually get more M\u0101ori wh\u0101nau into permanent homes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPage 130 shows M\u0101ori households reporting damp and mould at far higher rates than the general population, yet, on pages 27 and 28, his priority is weakening renter protections and reviewing property managers. Isn\u2019t that proof that the Government is, again, as we\u2019ve been saying all along, more interested in pleasing landlords than in fixing the basic conditions that M\u0101ori and the general population are forced to live in?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOn pages 22 and 23, the report\u2014and I\u2019d like the Minister\u2019s response on this\u2014highlights kaupapa M\u0101ori responses, like He Ara Hiki Mauri, but the baseline savings table on page 39 claws back funding from the homelessness action plan. Why is he cutting the very supports M\u0101ori claimants to Wai 2750 say are urgently needed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022 data-id=\u00225eadf60025e91b552782c432c9524693\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225eadf60025e91b552782c432c9524693\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA (Associate Minister of Housing) (17:54)\u003C/span\u003E: Again, may I repeat that in some places, some people report rough sleeping to have increased, but some of those reports were based on the number of phone calls that were made to council about people on the street, not the actual tier 1, credible data that we\u2019d all like to see and rely on in order to make informed policy choices. We are not into herding and mobbing wh\u0101nau into hotels\u2014never have been, never will be\u2014particularly in places like Hamilton West, where we had inherited 756 kids in hotels when I first came into this House. Now, there are about 50. I call that success and progress. Other people call that shadiness and hiding the bad news. I don\u2019t. I\u2019d rather see those kids in homes and in houses, warm, safe, and dry with their wh\u0101nau. We\u2019ve seen over 3,000 kids, primarily as a result of the support that we\u2019ve given through Priority One and a range of other initiatives, come out of emergency housing and contracted emergency housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn relation to the Housing First 300 places\u2014as I\u2019ve mentioned before, and I\u2019ll say it again for the second time today\u2014after that announcement was made, we saw a whole raft of accountability from existing providers who had not filled the funded places that they had. We also saw a range of initiatives done by Housing First providers throughout the country to ensure that those additional 300 places were filled with people that are in a very dire and difficult situation and are rough sleeping. We have seen around 600\u2014I think it was 592 not two days ago\u2014people come out of rough sleeping and go into the Housing First 300 places, and an additional around 110 places that were already existing before we made that announcement. Again, I call that success and progress. That is hard and fast data supplied by our agencies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMost of the Auckland places\u2014210 now at least\u2014are tenanted, and about half the places in Wellington and half the places in Hamilton and all 26 places in Christchurch that were allocated in the Housing First 300 have been filled. They\u2019ve been filled for several months. Just on Christchurch, yes, Jill Hawkey and Annette Sutherland and others do have some strong views, but they\u2019re also very supportive of the initiatives that we have undertaken around Housing First, around the additional outreach monies and transitional moneys, and a range of initiatives to support, through the Community Housing Funding Agency\u2014James Palmer and others up at Community Finance through the bank guarantee kaupapa that we had through the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Housing to actually reduce the cost of community housing provision overtime, because, ultimately, that\u2019s one of the biggest challenges to not only building houses but also renting and owning houses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGoing on to Mr Jackson\u2019s observations and questions, yes, we would like to see more homeownership. We think a property-owning democracy is the way New Zealand should be. We absolutely agree to that. That\u2019s why you\u2019ve seen the sterling and absolutely inspirational work of Minister Bishop around land rezoning and land consenting\u2014on the fast-track announcements, just note the Ashbourne matter that was announced today, the 19\u003Csup\u003Eth\u003C/sup\u003E fast track, down in the mighty Waikato, home of the famous Chiefs rugby team\u2014and a whole range of affordable rental initiatives that might not necessarily address the homeownership issue, but, actually, the affordable rentals are now adopted from the M\u0101ori housing kaupapa and are included in the flexi fund which Minister Bishop announced last year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe flexi fund, again, is another pathway that gives more flexibility for housing providers to build homes for those on the income-related rent subsidy, for affordable rentals, or for other types of housing. We do think that the M\u0101ori housing provision in many, many ways has been credible and reliable. What they\u2019ve done at Ng\u0101ti Whakaue up by the airport is absolutely fantastic\u2014David Thomas and Ray Morrison. We think that some providers also need to work a bit more efficiently and a bit more effectively to deploy those houses and to get them moving. I\u2019m sure that our friends over in the Green Party will know that H\u016Bhana Lyndon is involved in Te Pouahi. They\u2019ve got some work to do. They\u2019ve got to get on with it and deliver the houses that they\u2019ve been contracted to deliver over.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOverall, yes, we think that there is progress. There is more to do, but making sure we\u2019ve got the right zoning and consenting in place, the right materials being made available with Minister Penk in his work in building and construction, granny flats and papa k\u0101inga announcements, and other things that have been done are all to make housing more accessible, and more affordable. We\u2019re all for that. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7514c1aa328bf36e562e920c696edd2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time with the Minister of Housing has ended. The Minister of Health will be available at 7.30. The House will resume at 7.30.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterItalicsCentred\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 5.59 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221cd146fec36e73e5ae9faf0a02eccf34\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u2014Annual Review Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u0022466444a6ce902420316c116c58c3ae34\u0022\u003EHealth\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dede57f4f8f04cb8e7fe49348ef247b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the committee is resumed on the Appropriation (2024/25 Confirmation and Validation) Bill. The Minister of Health is now available, isn\u2019t he\u2014oh yes, good\u2014for one hour to respond to members\u2019 questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022200839810eb94155be7306bf21d350dd\u0022 data-id=\u00227264fdd4ccfa07e955726b588b8f9a8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022200839810eb94155be7306bf21d350dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227264fdd4ccfa07e955726b588b8f9a8b\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (Chairperson of the Health Committee) (19:30)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to talk to the annual review of Health New Zealand, which leads the day-to-day running of publicly funded health services across New Zealand. It is our largest Crown entity, with over 100,000 employees, and I want to thank all of them involved\u2014and they\u2019ll be working right now to keep New Zealanders safe. So thank you very much on behalf of everyone in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EHealth New Zealand achieved a better-than-budgeted financial performance in the 2024/25 year, which followed a challenging previous year. The organisation has taken steps to strengthen cost controls. It\u2019s faced increasing demand for many of its services and continues to work hard to meet the performance targets set. It\u2019s made progress, as well, in implementing the recommendations of the Deloitte review into its financial performance. It\u2019s culminated in a single integrated financial system for Health New Zealand. We heard that it is working towards a devolved regional structure, because the organisation was too big for centralised decision making to be efficient and had to move away from the centre, including four regions with regional heads for Health New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe have had workforce growth over the previous two years. Vacancy and turnover rates have fallen to the lowest point since the organisation\u2019s establishment. We have a significant increase in M\u0101ori doctors, as well, and I want to note that the 6.3 percent growth in the workforce reported by Health New Zealand was reflected at the local level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe elective surgery wait-lists, we were told by Health New Zealand, were at an all-time high and they have come down significantly. The Government\u2019s decision around the Elective Boost initiative had provided funding for a number of additional elective surgeries and, ultimately, achieved 16,000 of these.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere are a number of other things that have been done, including a 10-year health infrastructure plan and the New Zealand Health Plan, to ensure a fairer system to improve healthcare outcomes for all New Zealanders. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022 data-id=\u002220f2a3df0a58286385f7cd82187341a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220f2a3df0a58286385f7cd82187341a6\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health) (19:32)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, thank you, Madam Chair. I want to start by acknowledging the Health Committee and its members for their work on the annual review. I want to begin by saying that the health system is making progress over a number of key metrics and to thank the doctors, nurses, nurse practitioners, allied health professionals, support staff, and everyone else working across our health system who has contributed to the results and the outcomes that are putting patients at the heart of our healthcare system, ensuring New Zealanders can access timely, quality healthcare when they need it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe know that the system has not been delivering as it should. Wait times have been too long; wait-lists have grown too large, and that is the challenge that we are tackling. That is why this Government has a clear focus with our five health targets: shorter wait times for elective surgery, shorter wait times for first specialist appointments, shorter stays in emergency departments, faster cancer treatment, and improving immunisation rates for our children. We are measuring performance and driving results. Ultimately, you can\u2019t manage what you don\u2019t measure. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve reinstated the health targets and we\u2019re focusing the system on delivery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAt the same time, we\u2019re investing record investments into our health system, with $16.68 billion additional over three Budgets, which is focusing on making sure that we have the resources in the right places and the increased workforce to deliver for patients. We know that there is still significant work required to continue to put patients at the heart of our system to reduce those wait-lists and those wait times; we\u2019re focused on doing that. I thank Health New Zealand and all of the healthcare professionals working diligently and hard on our front line. We thank them for the work that they\u2019re doing, continuing this momentum in our health system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022 data-id=\u00225d572dbd7d7b339a396c09fac7991f44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d572dbd7d7b339a396c09fac7991f44\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green) (19:34)\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Chair, and \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003Et\u0113n\u0101 koe e te Minita\u003C/span\u003E. I\u2019d like to acknowledge the hui that we just attended for Blood Cancer New Zealand and the opportunity that it was to hear the voice of patients and those in care right now, as well as our advocates within the sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy questions are in relation to health equity and Te Tiriti compliance, knowing that we are undergoing significant change in our system and the sector, but we have Wai 2575 recommendations from the Waitangi Tribunal that had guided the previous establishment of our health system. So I\u2019m wanting to understand how you believe, as the Minister of Health, you are tracking and giving effect to the recommendations of the Waitangi Tribunal for Wai 2575.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFurther to that, while acknowledging you have the targets, I\u2019m asking the Minister: specifically, what initiatives can you share with us that have that specific focus on reducing the disparities and, in fact, the life expectancy gap between M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori as it still exists and it is still felt across te iwi M\u0101ori, and wanting to understand what is the funding allocated and what are the initiatives that the Minister is funding to close those gaps?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn addition to that, I\u2019m wanting to also thank the chairperson of the Health Committee for sharing the stats in terms of increase in our workforce. That\u2019s a beautiful thing, but when thinking about M\u0101ori mental health and addiction services, what specific measures are we seeing in terms of the dedicated funding for M\u0101ori mental health and addiction services, and then the workforce spend, as well, in terms of workforce capability?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIwi M\u0101ori Partnership Boards, Minister: where are we at on that? How are they tracking? What is their voice, and how does their voice get heard? Beyond the M\u0101ori health advisory committee, how do we utilise these entities that were set up specifically to provide iwi M\u0101ori voice into the system and the outcomes that we are seeing for their influence in terms of strategic commissioning?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThen, in closing, Minister, a p\u0101tai further around cancer treatments, and recognising the hui that we attended for blood cancer. Tomorrow, I will attend the international Indigenous Cancer Conference in T\u0101maki-makau-rau. Where are we tracking in terms of funding allocation for research and development that looks specifically at the impact of funding services and gaps for M\u0101ori cancer treatment? Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022 data-id=\u00226a803c0cee6811daddbb8f991346aaa3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a803c0cee6811daddbb8f991346aaa3\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health) (19:37)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker\u2014Madam Chair. I thank the member for her question in relation to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289aaa2cb5fa9fa292b56c0588a90a15d\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: A rare misstep.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc5513bd2c19ccdbc93b1a129a503e3e\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232a0c2107d9bae721267d3fbca92c116\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Rare misstep.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ccb81351b4f27f37f74877368688186\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: What was that about? I just stood up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0b47568b22424dfddd6ebf4e4d91bc6\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Waiting for your answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f00624dc908e0525b7f6cc2c9d86a4d5\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, thank you\u2014thank you, appreciate that. I thank the member for\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ad6ae25c3f6747c6ceb06534abe6dc3\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s all right. We\u2019ll look after you\u2014we\u2019ll look after you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6b4dc1fb877158d307eeb81345f8e0e\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Not sure if he\u2019s commenting on my height, but I was just stepping up. I\u2019m not sure if that\u2019s what he was referring to, but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bf29bbac5a69332ffee3de3548ab46d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t be so sensitive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbb43bc22b358a816765feffc375e2c1\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Fake it until you make it, mate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3e2ae40b6e780c7e07e303549e6f6bf\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: You can\u2019t manage what you don\u2019t measure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab87f57cce47960440bb88849f07a132\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, thank you. I thank the member for her questions, and I thank\u2014[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253971dcd727fa2962cb8b8b196f5e231\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: OK, OK, that\u2019s enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb5cec3681491463d11152f6647080c4\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the Opposition members for their interjections. The member raised a number of important questions in relation to health outcomes for M\u0101ori, and the Government has been very clear in our approach that we expect our health system to treat New Zealanders based on their need, not based on their ethnicity. We have been very clear that we do not agree with having a co-governed health system, which was what the previous Government was delivering and which we have reversed. We are focused on making sure we improve health outcomes for all New Zealanders, including M\u0101ori, and that is what our health system is doing. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve reintroduced the health targets, which is making a significant difference for the results for New Zealanders, including M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOne of the initiatives we have been investing in significantly is in relation to immunisation for our children and immunisation for our tamariki. Whilst the member might ask the question, she fails to recognise that the previous Government, which she supported and which spent all of its time focusing on restructuring the health system\u2014 she\u2019s failing to recognise the abysmal results, which ended up with only 64.7 percent of M\u0101ori children being fully immunised at two years of age when we came into Government\u201464.7 percent of M\u0101ori children were fully immunised at the age of two years. Whilst that member and the previous Government, which she supported, might have been focused on restructuring the system, the results went backwards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe have now seen a significant increase in immunisation rates for M\u0101ori children. The latest advice that I have received is that it is now up to 71.5 percent\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002288978fb9592a4911a8e47eae04d164f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fe25f7d52342e280d32b2cd6e40e7dc\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: Still not good enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0ecc4de4a46b721a7308c2b211e1fc7\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014of children. As the member for Banks Peninsula said, that is still not good enough. We have much work to do, and my expectations of Health New Zealand are very clear that that must be their focus: to improve outcomes for all New Zealanders, including M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022 data-id=\u0022944333bb4ff99c7d98174cd5d1d5e967\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022944333bb4ff99c7d98174cd5d1d5e967\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori) (19:40)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Just while we\u2019re on the subject of percentages and stats, I would like to pick up on the discussion, and I thank H\u016Bhana Lyndon for the questions. The question that is probably the biggest thing that the Minister can\u2019t seem to be able to capture is that immunisation is really important, but just as important is the fact that this Government and this Minister continue to allow a persistent six-year life expectancy gap between M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori. That is a statistical fact that the Minister should be able to respond to and show what is happening. Immunisation is really important, but so is the life expectancy gap, and we need to think beyond just one thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETo the Minister of Health\u2014and I know that there are some other buddy Ministers in the background\u2014there are a couple of things that I\u2019d actually like to raise in regard to statistics. M\u0101ori miss their first specialist appointments at 15.2 percent, compared to 4.7 percent for non-M\u0101ori. We need to understand those statistics\u2014they\u2019re facts; they\u2019re in your own reports. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also got here that ambulatory sensitive hospitalisation (ASH) rates for tamariki M\u0101ori aged zero to four are at 8,510 per 100,000, versus 5,400 for non-M\u0101ori. I\u2019d also like to extend on the fact of stats, since that is what the Minister is priding himself on. We\u2019ve also got the data showing massive regional variations, from Lakes at 95 percent to Taranaki at just 47.9 percent. These are M\u0101ori populations in concentrated areas with the worst performance, and what targeted actions is the Minister taking for all these collections of data? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s another piece of data that I\u2019d like you to think about. Hazardous drinking effects: 29.6 percent of M\u0101ori adults compared to 17.9 percent of non-M\u0101ori. These are stats, which are just as important as immunisation, that we are not hearing about from this Government. These stats are affecting everyday lives. Here\u2019s another one: M\u0101ori women\u2019s cervical screening rates sit at 67.8 percent, compared to 81.8 percent for non-M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThese are stats and this Government is failing M\u0101ori, and you\u2019re talking about it being needs-based\u2014we get needs-based. Well, guess what? Equity has M\u0101ori at that needs base, which leads me to this question: if kaupapa M\u0101ori models were consistently delivering results\u2014and let\u2019s move away from the rage-baiting discussion of co-governance. If kaupapa M\u0101ori models were actually delivering results, why has the Government not mandated more investment towards taking these approaches to address this pile of poor statistics that this Government has allowed to heighten? It\u2019s actually not gotten better. It was already worse before; it\u2019s now gotten worse than. So what I\u2019d like to hear from this Minister is how you are going to invest in addressing the disparity of the growing inequities, as statistically shown in your own reports, and, more significantly, how can you show us, as a nation, that you are going to close that gap of the six-year life expectancy between M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori? Why should my mokopuna, who is born at the same time\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225908f3d9fbe7d25e9bd50fc5f7d21ad4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just ask the member to come back to the 2024-25 appropriations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b8e993db1037cdf4944abd857ba38d6\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, but it is actually all important, because while we have heard the immunisation rates, one plus one plus one plus one equals the whole suite of solutions that we need to do to address the health inequities that are growing in this country. It is responsible for this Minister in this period to show the data and show how the Government is investing in addressing those growing inequities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2bdc3588b8e851fe064d64961217092\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2bdc3588b8e851fe064d64961217092\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour) (19:44)\u003C/span\u003E: Just further to the previous speakers, I think that those are appropriate questions, and if the Minister of Health stopped talking rubbish about co-governance and actually came back to the kaupapa\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220657e9ac7932dc7c397c5cbb5af08398\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister said no such things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f67eb913d325da06401d31513b50ef60\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you should know, Mr Seymour, that it was the National Government who put it in and you went along with it, but never mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI want to come back to what\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cce48b75a46b03aaf6d69955c173812\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Back to the appropriations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280981926a6b5d584dd99c8d51f014aba\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry about that, Madam Chair. I want to just come back to the question about life expectancy. On 12 March 2025, the Minister told the House that outcomes for all New Zealanders means that M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori have the same life expectancy. One year on, in his own annual report, he still has M\u0101ori life expectancy stuck at 76.8 years. It\u2019s unchanged and the gap is still sitting at almost six years. We\u2019re hearing the Minister talk about all the changes, but there have been no changes whatsoever, which reiterates what the previous speaker Debbie Ngarewa-Packer has said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to ask the Minister this, because there are a number of questions that M\u0101ori are asking: 12 or 15 iwi M\u0101ori partnership boards met every requirement to contribute to Health New Zealand\u2019s commissioning. The target was hit, and so what\u2019s the Minister\u2019s evidence base for stripping them of that role under the amendment bill and demoting them to community engagement? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAlso, I would like to ask the Minister this. The Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee gets exactly one mention\u2014one mention\u2014in this 294-page report. How many times did it meet last year, what advice did the Minister take from it, and, in enhancing its advisory role in the bill, is it anything more than just a rebrand? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, I also just wanted to follow up again on the Treaty area: does he agree with the Ministry of Health Te Tiriti o Waitangi framework, and, if so, has he done anything in the last 12 months to ensure that health legislation meets that Treaty framework? Does the Minister have any commitment whatsoever, or is he just going to keep talking to us about co-governance? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAlso, what progress has he made on the five priority areas for the health system in the \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EGovernment Policy Statement on Health 2024-2027\u003C/span\u003E regarding equitable access to health services for M\u0101ori? Can I add that this is such a hugely important area for M\u0101ori, and this is a Government that has been failing M\u0101ori from the time that it has come in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022 data-id=\u00227c297da844a1ecaaaf3efe6b240fb599\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c297da844a1ecaaaf3efe6b240fb599\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health) (19:47)\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I thank the member Willie Jackson for the comments, and I would just like to make it very clear that this Government is focused on improving health outcomes for all New Zealanders, including M\u0101ori. If you look at the annual report, there are a number of metrics and other statistics that show that there have been improvements continuously under this Government. There is significant work to be done, but, as I said earlier, the last Government removed the health targets and removed the focus on outcomes. It focused its efforts on restructuring the health system during the middle of a pandemic, rather than actually focusing on the issues and questions that those members are asking today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhen you look at some of the key stats, M\u0101ori life expectancy has increased to 75.8 years, reducing the gap with non-M\u0101ori from seven years to six years. While this signals progress, there is more work to do. We acknowledge that there is significantly more work to do. If we look at the number of M\u0101ori doctors, it has gone from 3.9 percent in 2020, to 5.2 percent. It is another increase in the number of M\u0101ori doctors working in our health system, here in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIf we look at the amount of money going into funding going to M\u0101ori health providers, it has increased from 3 percent in 2020 to 4.2 percent in the last financial year. We\u2019re continuing to invest in M\u0101ori health providers who provide care on the front line, but, ultimately, everything we do has to be measured by the outcomes that it meets and the targets that we are seeking to achieve so that the money is actually delivering better outcomes for all New Zealanders, including M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022 data-id=\u0022a342c8d5c79d57e404ea9df14bc2ed41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a342c8d5c79d57e404ea9df14bc2ed41\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour) (19:49)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to address the parts of the annual review that covered performance. I\u2019d like the Minister of Health to account for the milestones that were met in the year under review, and then the milestones that are on track to be met in the current financial year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll note that the Standing Orders allow for the discussion of current operations, where relevant, to the year under review. Which targets have the milestone for the year under review been met and which have or will be met in the current financial year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022 data-id=\u0022c167ef850532d183aa730448947d89b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c167ef850532d183aa730448947d89b0\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health) (19:50)\u003C/span\u003E: The target results for the last financial year have been published, and the target results for this financial year are yet to be published, because the year has not yet been completed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022 data-id=\u002223af2049a33ad384fa8ebbddcf038112\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223af2049a33ad384fa8ebbddcf038112\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour) (19:50)\u003C/span\u003E: I wonder if the Minister of Health would like to explain to the committee how many of the milestones were met in the year under review. The Minister could do what he just did\u2014which is avoid my question and not speak to whether the target was met in the year under review\u2014and, if he does so, I would then have a follow-up question for him, which would be: how does he expect to hold the health system to account for meeting the target if he will not be held to account in this House for meeting the target? So, Minister, how many of the targets were met in the year under review?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022 data-id=\u0022645724e9ca3bd252d0c5f42f8021b21c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022645724e9ca3bd252d0c5f42f8021b21c\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health) (19:51)\u003C/span\u003E: It might be very good for the member there to want to get up and try and get a social media video, but we are publishing the targets every quarter, and annually, so that it is available for the public to be able to read, to scrutinise\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3afe2a9e9cb779b1e34efecfed1c958\u0022\u003EHon James Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Read a newspaper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c947c75b2a337d3772deb9047f581e0\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014we\u2019ve been publishing them in the newspapers; we\u2019ve been putting the information out there so that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226df4a239b6bfa6041aeb2ebc2c80fa09\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Sharing them on social media.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022764cc56ddee3bc9f177ca526e6eb753b\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Sharing them on social media. We have been providing that information out publicly for people to be able to see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn the financial year that has been referenced, we made significant progress against the health targets\u2014particularly on electives, first specialist appointments, immunisations, shorter stays in emergency departments, and improvements in cancer treatment, as well. In cancer treatment, the investment we made into Pharmac, with 33 new cancer medicines, is life changing for cancer patients up and down this country. I want to acknowledge Dr Shane Reti here in the Chamber today for his work on that. We have made a significant difference for cancer patients up and down the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe are making progress against the targets. The elective wait-list, the first specialist appointment target\u2014and whilst I acknowledge the wait-lists are still too long, there is more work to do; we are focusing the system on delivering that. Initiatives such as Elective Boost, where we actually partner with our private surgical hospitals to get things done, get people seen, get treatments done faster\u2014this makes a real difference in people\u2019s lives. We are making progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e60aed123042db0c824ca0b780af408a\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fc0662a3510bd6b66a3546d45498d0e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair, I do want to continue this line of questioning, if I may, and I do have plenty of time available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a694117cc0ef1b97ae01132e1332e7e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I started to call the Hon David Seymour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022 data-id=\u0022d959a40682fb16f94e843d1f7ad1e6e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d959a40682fb16f94e843d1f7ad1e6e4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Health) (19:53)\u003C/span\u003E: I have a very small, short contribution. I just wanted to acknowledge, in the short time I have, the tremendous work that the staff at both Pharmac and Medsafe have done during this financial year. They have been\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1c229d1fca189516b66ff39ebab5c9b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: I can\u2019t believe he won\u2019t even speak about the targets, and his mates are bailing him out. This is your big piece and he\u2019s not speaking to the targets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7f725fb51fb80171f49a099717747a7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I apologise to people who are watching at home. There\u2019s a bit of a meltdown occurring on the Labour benches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI actually just wanted to praise those people, the chair; I wanted to praise the chief executive newly recruited at Pharmac; and, also, Chris James at Medsafe for the superb work they\u2019ve done. People that work with these organisations will say that the culture has completely changed; they\u2019re dealing with a different organisation. I think that is a tribute to the work that those people have done. Medsafe halved the time to get a consent so Kiwis can get medicines faster. Sometimes, we forget to thank the officials and public servants that deliver these things, but since we\u2019re talking about this financial period and all the things that they\u2019ve done for patients getting medicines faster, more funded\u2014we just heard from the Minister of Health how many new medicines have become available\u2014I thought it was well and truly worth acknowledging their contribution for the record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022 data-id=\u002257d037a7685255268ed5664122ece7c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257d037a7685255268ed5664122ece7c0\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour) (19:54)\u003C/span\u003E: Fortunately, I took notes of the Minister of Health\u2019s dodging of my last question. He made a quip about social media, and I understand he\u2019s jealous of my follower numbers! He named the targets. He said they were published. He did not answer whether or not they were met. He talked about other programmes that the Government has under way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EOf course, the shame, the embarrassment for the Government, is that after making such a fuss that this was going to be their transformative action in the health system, we all know those milestones were not met in the year under review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002288978fb9592a4911a8e47eae04d164f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228da1e94522983ae78e1c79a9d3cf22e7\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: We didn\u2019t expect them to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278278cb1921624d7e1e4426b53a00508\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: We also know\u2014milestones, Dr Weenink\u2014that since the year under review\u2014I\u2019ll explain for the good doctor over there: each year, the milestone increases because the idea that this Government promoted is that they would continue to make improvements, and so the milestones are set higher for this year. I can tell the committee that, currently, only one milestone has been achieved, and that is the cancer treatment times milestone. For that performance indicator, that was the target that was set 1.1 percent higher than the baseline when the Government came into office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EMy question is, Minister: for the other four, what responsibility do you take for some of them, for the performance getting worse against some of these targets since you came to office? I\u2019m thinking specifically of the first specialist appointments target. This is your flagship initiative, Minister; this is your promise to the New Zealand public: that health services would improve. Where your performance has deteriorated, why has that occurred?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022 data-id=\u00225981f0397e227eb45c5b36bdf390a2e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225981f0397e227eb45c5b36bdf390a2e5\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health) (19:56)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s ironic that the member is asking questions about health targets\u2014the very health targets that her Government chose to remove, and which left many thousands and thousands of people sitting on wait-lists which simply ballooned under her watch. The number of people waiting for elective treatment increased by 92 percent under her watch. The number of people waiting over four months for elective treatment increased by 2,500 percent under her watch. The number of people waiting for a first specialist assessment increased by 83 percent under her watch. The number of people waiting over four months for a first specialist assessment increased by 6,400 percent under her watch. That is the record of failure which the Labour Party has to live up to every single day because they were focused on restructuring the health system, rather than on delivering for the very patients the health system is meant to be there to deliver for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe have seen significant improvements against our targets. Improved immunisation rates\u201477.1 percent of children aged two years of age were immunised when Labour left office in 2023; that has increased to 82.9 percent against the most recent quarterly update.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EShorter stays in emergency departments: 89 percent of patients, when National left office in 2017, were being seen within six hours in an emergency department; that dropped to 67.5 percent under the previous Government, and has increased back up to 74.2 percent under this Government, according to the most recent quarterly result.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EShorter wait times for elective treatment and specialist appointments\u2014I acknowledge those wait-lists are too long. There are too many people waiting to be seen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279e591dadd0a509cb140b1dfa21bc06b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Minister, your performance is getting worse. It\u2019s worse under you. It\u2019s worse under your Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022592272040225826e1422788802960dca\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I would point out that the number of people waiting less than four months was 62.1 percent for an elective treatment when she left office; it\u2019s now back up to 64.5 percent. That is an increase. Is that good enough? No, there\u2019s more work to do\u2014there is significantly more work to do. I acknowledge it and we\u2019re working on it each and every day to reduce those wait times for patients so that they can be seen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re dealing with the wait-list ballooning, which ballooned under her watch, and she\u2019s now here complaining about it. The irony of it: the wait-list which she is now complaining about, she let balloon under her watch, and she is now complaining about the very people trying to fix the mess left behind under the previous Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9085ede4f1b9ac1d4aa8a813ed8abce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9085ede4f1b9ac1d4aa8a813ed8abce\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour) (19:59)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s good to hear the Minister of Health\u2019s response on\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238f5bbf7497c78ead099d09bec46961b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2f87af8505f0bf7dcc564c35605c53e\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014thank you, Madam Chair\u2014this issue, because it\u2019s quite apparent we\u2019ve touched a nerve. They don\u2019t like being told when they don\u2019t measure up. They don\u2019t like being told that first specialist appointments are worse under their Government than under the last Government. They don\u2019t like it when they\u2019re held to account\u2014because I talk to a lot of people in the health system, and they don\u2019t like it. They don\u2019t like the bullying tone that this Government has about the targets, because here it is\u2014here it is. It\u2019s a small-minded leadership culture that exists in our health system, where the people at the top can bully others and make them accountable for their performance, but when they don\u2019t measure up, there\u2019s no come-back for them. I think that was a very revealing conversation, Minister, and I thank you for that exchange.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI do want to ask you another question, though, Minister. All of these targets reflect outputs; they don\u2019t reflect outcomes. Outputs\u2014things that occur in the health system, procedures done, time to treatment initiation and so on: they are outputs, they\u2019re not outcomes. I wonder, would the Minister consider commenting on the value of measuring genuine health outcomes?  In the period where the Minister has made such an investment in cancer care, why isn\u2019t cancer survival being measured, just time to treatment? I understand that\u2019s an important part of a cancer patient\u2019s journey, but why not measure whether you live or die? Isn\u2019t that the more important thing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022 data-id=\u0022faf51e4b07c2e4da9ba1744b552273aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022faf51e4b07c2e4da9ba1744b552273aa\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health) (20:01)\u003C/span\u003E: I find it quite ironic that that member would say that these targets don\u2019t measure the right thing, because, ultimately, when I meet patients who talk to me about getting a cataract operation done, that is life-changing for them and the opportunities that they have. When I meet a patient who\u2019s just had their hip or knee replaced, that has been life-changing for them. Their ability to spend time with their grandchildren, their ability to get out and about, their ability not to live in pain\u2014that is an outcome that matters to patients.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EHer question tries to diminish the outcomes that are being measured by these targets for patients, and I am going to stand here every single day on behalf of the patients of New Zealand who need to be seen faster and need to see the treatments that they need delivered sooner. On her side of the House, they are going to simply say that those are not outcomes. That\u2019s what she said: those are not outcomes. I encourage her to go to everybody who is waiting for a hip operation and say, \u201CYour hip operation isn\u2019t an outcome\u201D. Well, for that person, that is life-changing, and we are going to continue to fight for the patients of New Zealand so they can be seen sooner, they can be seen faster, and we can get more treatments done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1c8dd5c2ebd4dc3bfe60de8e43532bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1c8dd5c2ebd4dc3bfe60de8e43532bc\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori) (20:02)\u003C/span\u003E: One of the things I\u2019d like to share is that I happen to have, probably, the second-largest electorate that I\u2019m fortunate to be an MP for. That\u2019s from Tokoroa all the way down to Porirua. Our team often have\u2014in fact, the highest queries they get are health. The constituents have concerns ranging from rural areas that they live in to urban areas including Ng\u0101motu, Wanganui, Palmerston North, and Porirua. There\u2019s a common theme, Minister, that I would like to tease out from you. I understand we\u2019re going to sit here and watch who did right and who did wrong, but the reality is there\u2019s a whole bunch of our communities that are experiencing real pain at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOne of the things that we\u2019re seeing is that you\u2019ve had targets, and some of the targets are, perhaps, really ambitious\u2014for example, in elective treatment performance, and the target, I understand, is 95 percent. It\u2019s dropped from 60 percent down to 59 percent. That\u2019s probably small in your mind, but what it translates to on the ground is that there are a whole lot of people that are not being seen. They are not on lists. We\u2019ve also got a real decline, in the year on show, in elective treatment access for those who are able to get it and, also, those who are on lists of not being referred, which happen to be M\u0101ori. One of the things I\u2019d like to understand from the Minister is: what is your plan to address some of these targets? I know you\u2019re debating between the left and the right on whether there should be targets or not. You have stated there are targets. What is the substantive measure that we can say tonight to our communities that is on the cards to be done? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAnother thing that I\u2019d like to also understand is, there was a $105 million surplus in the M\u0101ori health funding, and I don\u2019t know if this indicates where that funding is intended to go. I would like to tease out from the Minister: is that $105 million that\u2019s unspent in M\u0101ori health funding being reallocated to deal with some of the issues that those in the communities are confronting now? I guess the other part of that is: is the Minister ensuring that the kaupapa M\u0101ori providers, who have experienced huge reductions in funding, delayed contracts, and service constraints, and they are the connector between those communities and those constituents who are complaining\u2014what does he see as being the bridge between that reduced funding, a surplus of $105 million, and how that happens to come to fruition, to action, for those communities that are affected?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022 data-id=\u00229df866b29adb23e6bec673cc76830b3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229df866b29adb23e6bec673cc76830b3f\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health) (20:05)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I acknowledge the member Debbie Ngarewa-Packer\u2019s questions. The latest data in regards to the health targets shows that there has been an improvement since health targets were reintroduced for shorter wait times for elective treatments, and so it is progress in the right direction and, ultimately, there is significantly more work to be done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIn relation to funding to Ma\u014Dri health providers as a percentage of Vote Health, I\u2019m advised that between 2020/21 and 2024/25, that increased from 3 percent of the total funding to 4.2 percent. In numerical terms, that is an increase from $588 million to $1.293 billion over that time period\u2014an increase of $508 million or an 87 percent increase in total. That is a significant increase in funding to M\u0101ori health providers, and we thank them for the work that they do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022 data-id=\u002215e45ad448fa1476b41206706a9667e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215e45ad448fa1476b41206706a9667e5\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour) (20:07)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Minister, there were considerable changes in staffing at Health New Zealand during the year under review. I wonder if the Minister can account for the decrease in nurses employed by Health New Zealand on a per capita basis during the period under review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022 data-id=\u002287b5d11892fcffd92f628b77db0c0006\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287b5d11892fcffd92f628b77db0c0006\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health) (20:07)\u003C/span\u003E: As the member knows, there\u2019s been an increase in nursing staff at Health New Zealand since we came to Government. I think there are around 2,000 additional nurses working at Health New Zealand today than when we came into Government. We continue to invest in our nursing workforce, and we value the work they do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022 data-id=\u0022d10eed13522994e83593f11fef219bf9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d10eed13522994e83593f11fef219bf9\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour) (20:08)\u003C/span\u003E: One of the great things about being a New Zealander, as every New Zealander understands, is per capita, because, you know, we\u2019re always thinking about our medal tallies at the Olympics on a per capita basis. So could the Minister please account for the reduction in nurses per capita employed in the public health system in New Zealand, please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb7175378b9ac30cc7e0c09e987f81c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb7175378b9ac30cc7e0c09e987f81c9\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health) (20:08)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve answered the question. We have continued to increase investment in our nursing workforce, and we will continue to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022 data-id=\u0022492fa1662084fe268c6a8e9e5a1c0327\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022492fa1662084fe268c6a8e9e5a1c0327\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour) (20:08)\u003C/span\u003E: What hope can the Minister offer to graduate nurses, who are bearing the brunt of the restrictive hiring policies at Health New Zealand when it comes to nursing jobs? This has been an ongoing issue from the year under review until today, with multiple rounds of graduate nurses having reduced levels of recruitment and many leaving for Australia in pursuit of employment opportunities that really should be offered in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f290133a69681ac8e322827f91830515\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f290133a69681ac8e322827f91830515\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health) (20:09)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m advised that Health New Zealand is targeting to employ 80 percent of graduate nurses from last year\u2019s mid-year graduation and end-of-year graduation. I\u2019m advised over 1,400 of those graduate nurses have already been employed by Health New Zealand. They\u2019re continuing to recruit to that target, and we are continuing to focus on building our nursing workforce here in New Zealand. Government is also investing in nursing in primary care, with targeted funding towards GP clinics and aged-care facilities with support for them to employ graduate nurses. That\u2019s a key part of our plan to grow the nursing workforce, not just in our hospitals but also in our primary and community care settings, which play such an important role in our healthcare system up and down New Zealand. I want to thank all of those nurses who have started their work in primary care and in our hospitals for the work that they do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022 data-id=\u002281096bd6839029ae49c12288ee72147f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281096bd6839029ae49c12288ee72147f\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour) (20:10)\u003C/span\u003E: In the year under review, Health New Zealand spent $432\u00A0million on outsourced personnel, the vast majority of it on clinical personnel. Can the Minister explain what initiatives are being taken to make sure that regular employment in the health system is preferred in order to make sure that our health workers can have longevity of tenure and that we also stop paying a premium for locums?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022 data-id=\u002270344c3debf97eba1da7b79bea230b28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270344c3debf97eba1da7b79bea230b28\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health) (20:10)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, investing in strengthening our workforce is a priority under this Government. There are hundreds more doctors working in Health New Zealand today than when we came into Government. Making sure that we are strengthening that workforce, particularly in smaller and regional hospitals, is a priority for this Government. I would agree that\u2014and I\u2019ve made my expectations clear\u2014Health New Zealand does need to be focused on the permanent employment of doctors. At the same time, where there are vacancies, locums do play an important role to ensure that those services continue to be provided in those communities, and that balance must always continue to be struck so that patients get the care that they need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022 data-id=\u00228e4490a3cfa8a63aba9a09a67e37f1ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e4490a3cfa8a63aba9a09a67e37f1ed\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri) (20:11)\u003C/span\u003E: I have a question for the Associate Minister, Minister Costello, who I can see is in the House. It\u2019s regarding the Dementia Mate Wareware Action Plan 2026. I know that the Minister was there for the refreshed plan, and I\u2019m wondering\u2014having looked through the titles from September 2025 through to March 2026, there doesn\u2019t appear to be any Cabinet papers to endorse that. I\u2019m asking the Minister if there is a Cabinet-backed response to the refreshed plan, or did she just turn up to cut the ribbon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022 data-id=\u00229b1ffeaeaacab254b05d3b6eaa4d9476\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b1ffeaeaacab254b05d3b6eaa4d9476\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health) (20:12)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I would highlight to the member that to make progress in health decisions and work doesn\u2019t always require Cabinet papers. A measure of success isn\u2019t the number of Cabinet papers that is delivered. We continue to work in this space. Health New Zealand has acknowledged the action plan, and the recommendations are being worked through. As the member will be aware, there is currently a trial programme that is still in progress. The trial is still continuing. Those outcomes will be assessed and measured, and there is a larger programme of work around the aged care, which actually carries the bulk of the population of those living with dementia, and so I will look forward to bringing those outcomes to the House once Cabinet decisions are made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022 data-id=\u0022090f44290feaf964ef478e13896bc106\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022090f44290feaf964ef478e13896bc106\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri) (20:13)\u003C/span\u003E: Thanks for those responses, Minister. What specifically has changed, then, since she cut the ribbon at the action plan, and what specific plans are in place, particularly for younger-onset dementia, given that that cohort faces a particular set of challenges which are quite different from the older set, including respite support and employment support for their families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022 data-id=\u00225b9635d51086bcd8407583bd87cf5349\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b9635d51086bcd8407583bd87cf5349\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health) (20:13)\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve stated, there is a trial programme that is in place. The member has submitted a range of written questions, which have been responded to. The action plan has been acknowledged. It is part of the programme of work for Health New Zealand, and we will continue to address those issues. In terms of the areas of those with younger-onset dementia, that doesn\u2019t sit specifically under my delegation, so, therefore, I would be unable to respond to those questions. To suggest that we attended to cut the ribbon\u2014as the member will be aware, I gave a detailed speech around the commitments this Government has to responding to this important issue, and it will continue to be a programme of work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220bfce44a6cc58c587bf1c13754afcc8\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair, I have some questions for the mental health Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221108116b2aa2dd2500e398fc60edad87\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just remind members that the reason I have to give you the call is that Hansard is recording. They can\u2019t assume who\u2019s standing up. I have to give the call. Also, the cameras are remotely activated. They are not on campus, and so by giving the call, the cameras then know where to go. That\u2019s why I have to be so pedantic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad70e4ba40738c9a406adc9a88062176\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad70e4ba40738c9a406adc9a88062176\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri) (20:14)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for the guidance, Madam Chair, and apologies for my enthusiasm. My questions are to the Minister for Mental Health. Just regarding recent data published by the Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission, can he please explain why people are waiting longer for addiction services than for mental health services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002224cf2b07c863455d8ff343c5bc53b590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ac967b935758a404096e29161373fed\u0022\u003EHon Matt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the first thing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4e244e4894e41f4375bb431824f68e9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Matt Doocey\u2014following on from my little speech I just gave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002224cf2b07c863455d8ff343c5bc53b590\u0022 data-id=\u00227ec5088fb9e6540c4737885d5c54ed73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002224cf2b07c863455d8ff343c5bc53b590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ec5088fb9e6540c4737885d5c54ed73\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for Mental Health) (20:15)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much. Look, the first thing I\u2019d say is that for the first time in this country, we\u2019ve now got the ability to actually track access waiting times. The principle, as you would have heard the health Minister say, is you can\u2019t manage what you don\u2019t measure. That\u2019s why we set up New Zealand\u2019s first mental health and addiction targets\u2014one week for access for primary mental health and addiction support; three weeks for specialist mental health and addiction support. Whether it be mental health or addiction, it shows that, actually, access rates are increasing, which actually shows waiting times are going down. I think that is a good position to be in as a country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022 data-id=\u002223bfa531109b7866b63592a4e96a1ab2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223bfa531109b7866b63592a4e96a1ab2\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri) (20:16)\u003C/span\u003E: I note that the Minister put mental health and addiction together. It would be good to get an answer specifically on addiction services, which the Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission has specifically said involve longer waiting times than for mental health services. I\u2019d also like to understand why referrals that have been declined have increased. We\u2019ve been tracking this for a while, and the mental health commission has noted it, as well. Is this a way of making the numbers look better? There is evidence that referrals have been decreased\u2014actually not only in mental health but also in the X-ray services in the lower South Island, where apparently the X-rays are being triaged by somebody from Health New Zealand. Radiologists are now only able to get those triaged X-rays. We\u2019re seeing this across the health system. The specific question to the mental health Minister is: is he concerned about the fact that the declines of those referrals have increased, and on what basis can he justify that increase?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002224cf2b07c863455d8ff343c5bc53b590\u0022 data-id=\u002232954aa45a128fe5e96077484a997b7d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002224cf2b07c863455d8ff343c5bc53b590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232954aa45a128fe5e96077484a997b7d\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for Mental Health) (20:17)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Look, the first thing I want to make very clear for those listening tonight is that if you do attend a mental health service in New Zealand, you won\u2019t be X-rayed. I just want to make that very clear. I\u2019m not sure what that questioner was asking, but I just want to make it very clear that my expectation is you won\u2019t be X-rayed if you go to a mental health service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe second thing I would raise on the question around declined referrals is that for the one-week primary mental health and addiction target, there is no need for a referral to those services. They are open-access services, and, in fact, you don\u2019t actually need to be referred by your GP. You can actually go to the GP practice where those services are delivered and engage that service directly for free, as well. The final point I\u2019d make around declined referrals is that I just want to assure the House that, actually, when someone is declined because the referral is not appropriate\u2014meaning that is not the best service for them\u2014then those people are found the more appropriate service. It\u2019s not that people are left without a service available to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022 data-id=\u002248080dea7aab2e4439c281b5658f7ea0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248080dea7aab2e4439c281b5658f7ea0\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri) (20:18)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Just a follow-up question: so which services are those declined referrals referred to, and what evidence does he have to show that that\u2019s being tracked and that they are receiving services? I\u2019d be really interested to know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe second question is regarding 19- to 24-year-olds. The mental health commission points out that access for mental health services continues to decrease in that cohort. Is he concerned?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002224cf2b07c863455d8ff343c5bc53b590\u0022 data-id=\u00221f1a682d80f3be00f419bb723f40a3c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002224cf2b07c863455d8ff343c5bc53b590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f1a682d80f3be00f419bb723f40a3c4\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for Mental Health) (20:19)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I think that\u2019s a fair point, and I am concerned, when you look at the data the member is referring to in the Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission report. For adults, it showed, in the last 12 months compared to the previous 12 months, that an extra 35,000 adults were seen. That is largely attributed to the significant increase in front-line workforce. The front-line mental health and addiction workforce has grown by 11\u00A0percent, and child and adolescent mental health and addiction services have grown by 19\u00A0percent. We have seen an increase in the number of infants and children accessing services, but for the 18 to 25 age group, we haven\u2019t found the equivalent pick-up. That\u2019s not do with capacity. There is capacity there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI would point that member to the recent publication from the Ministry of Youth Development, asking specific questions for young people as to why they did not engage in support when it was there. Some of the feedback has actually been that they have found those services too medicalised\u2014services that they, quite frankly, have not seen themselves in. It does require us to look at youth-specific services that young people feel are more representative of them and are more reflective of them, to break down the barriers so that they will engage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI will just point out the recent Youth Mental Health Summit in Parliament, hosted by Youthline, who are proactively working on ensuring what the next generation of youth mental health services will look like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022 data-id=\u00222ec8cfa6f2d1d24e31fe8151969fe21f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ec8cfa6f2d1d24e31fe8151969fe21f\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour) (20:21)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. The Auditor-General advised that maintenance spending on Health New Zealand\u2019s asset base should sit at $280 million to $360 million a year. In the year under review, the actual maintenance spending was $140 million, and that went down, not up, from the previous year. Can the Minister of Health commit to increasing\u2014to a forward plan on the maintenance spending for New Zealand hospitals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd7b73a96ec08d88b72c80c48ceaf68d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd7b73a96ec08d88b72c80c48ceaf68d\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health) (20:21)\u003C/span\u003E: As the member will appreciate, Health New Zealand has a significant asset base which is ageing and which does require a significant investment not only in maintenance and renewals, which is a priority, but also in the rehabilitation of facilities and also new facilities. I understand there\u2019s around $7.5 billion in the capital pipeline at the moment at Health New Zealand, which is significant. That was increased by around $1 billion at last year\u2019s Budget, with a real focus not only on new facilities but also on making sure that we\u2019re remediating existing facilities, plus also providing the growth and expansion that\u2019s required in our hospitals. This is a key priority for us as a Government, and we know how important it is and it certainly has been something which I, as Minister, have spent a significant amount of my time focused on to make sure that New Zealanders have access to the health services that they need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9189b57444031e62aee50499e14631c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9189b57444031e62aee50499e14631c\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour) (20:22)\u003C/span\u003E: To be specific, Minister, can you commit to meeting the Auditor-General\u2019s estimate of the amount needed to be spent on maintenance for New Zealand\u2019s public hospitals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022 data-id=\u00228010e5415b29b5618f254d7ed0347079\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228010e5415b29b5618f254d7ed0347079\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health) (20:23)\u003C/span\u003E: We are focusing on increasing investment into health infrastructure under this Government. In terms of the capital plan that Health New Zealand produces each year, they will be working through that for the coming financial year, to look at what the priorities are between making sure we\u2019re investing in renewals, maintenance, and, also, getting the investment in making sure some of those facilities which are end-of-life are being replaced\u2014that also goes across clinical equipment, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EOne of the areas that we\u2019ve had to put significant investment in, in the last financial year, has been around clinical equipment, such as CT scanners and MRI scanners, which have been left to run down under the previous Government\u2014they were often breaking. We\u2019re now replacing, I think, around a third of the CT and MRI scanners across the country over a two- to three-year period, which, of course, makes a significant difference for our healthcare professionals, as well. They need modern and efficient equipment that plays such an important role so that patients can be seen quickly and get the treatments that they need, the diagnoses that they need, and all those other services that they need in a timely manner, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022 data-id=\u00221f6b546873d88bfb241c7f29d980d2a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f6b546873d88bfb241c7f29d980d2a8\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour) (20:24)\u003C/span\u003E: Minister, the Health Infrastructure Plan does not publish the number of beds that the projects listed in the plan will include, and requests for those have been withheld on the basis that they are commercial and Budget-sensitive. Can the Minister explain how good a capital plan for hospitals without bed numbers is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2b1556b03188644959135f40e307403\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2b1556b03188644959135f40e307403\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health) (20:24)\u003C/span\u003E: What we\u2019re focused on is actually making sure we have a long-term plan. There is a significant amount of work that\u2019s needed in terms of clinical engagement around the detail of those plans\u2014models of care, as the member will know\u2014to get the specific details right. But, at the end of the day, we\u2019re actually also focused on getting things done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI would note that the previous Government, I think, spent its entire six years\u2014its entire six years\u2014talking about a hospital in Dunedin; an entire six years talking about it. We actually signed a contract for construction in the middle of last year, and construction is under way. Actually building a hospital is critically important. The last Government simply talked about it. I would say that actually building a hospital\u2014getting it done, getting it delivered\u2014is far more important than what the previous Government were experts at: simply talking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022 data-id=\u0022867883757443b714995dcb2f6840fc15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022867883757443b714995dcb2f6840fc15\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour) (20:25)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank that member for introducing my next question, which is: is it correct that, in the year under review, the National Party and the Government did absolutely nothing to advance Dunedin Hospital\u2014which, at the time of the election, had an out-patients building which was near completing construction, and the foundations done for the in-patient building; and, if I recall correctly, during the year under review, the Government did nothing but threaten to move the hospital, say that the project should be wholly reconsidered and put back in the old hospital, and then they finally came to their senses, returned back to the plan that the Labour Government had, employed the very same project manager to run the project but at twice the cost?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022 data-id=\u00222cb61ca4cd02099d66ccf823ec8ac5d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cb61ca4cd02099d66ccf823ec8ac5d4\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health) (20:26)\u003C/span\u003E: The last Government\u2019s record in Dunedin Hospital is not something that they should be proud of\u2014it is not something that they should be proud of. They spent an entire six years\u2014an entire six years\u2014debating, discussing, talking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d52c571cdb246f6abf50a39de1a66f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022475f138dda2131b1920cc8d0f40a84a0\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Business plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224afae3293d4e8c7d7a32862bb98746d6\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry, but a hospital bed doesn\u2019t go in a plan; you\u2019ve actually got to get a construction contract signed. One of the things that I\u2019ve done as Minister of Health, in the last 12 months, is get a construction contract signed. Construction is now under way, and the good Dunedin Hospital is now getting built.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022 data-id=\u00221a65c099ca2123965c25ed165b3398d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a65c099ca2123965c25ed165b3398d5\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour) (20:27)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m thrilled to know that this Minister of Health is running political lines, which the people of Dunedin know with their own eyes\u2014because they\u2019ve been watching that hospital being built\u2014that that is utterly false.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EWhile we\u2019re speaking on the matter of the Minister\u2019s statement tonight, I am heartened by the absolute lack of clarity, content, and actual answers. This Minister manages to speak in total sound bites, and never once manages to deviate from talking points that he\u2019s picked up from the National Party research unit, probably polled on in focus groups by David Farrar. The really good thing is that he\u2019s been using them for 18 months, or whenever they stabbed Dr Reti in the back, and they\u2019re making absolutely no difference to what New Zealanders think the credibility of the National Party is on health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207e704472abfae8f58fce639d89e3408\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Come back to the year under review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287223e6ac2ef1d03039a214d6eb2c3cd\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: My suggestion for this debate is that the Minister could either choose to engage on the actual issues, he could answer questions, but if he can\u2019t, maybe he should get some new talking points\u2014maybe his political party\u2019s donors could actually pay for them to be worked up properly, because they are not resonating with the New Zealand public. They know the truth. They know the truth about nurses not being able to get jobs here. They know that you stuffed around on the Dunedin Hospital for 18 months, and nothing happened. They know that the quality of the health services that they are receiving have not improved whatsoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EMinister, you might feel clever for not answering questions, as you\u2019ve managed to do for an entire hour tonight, but the fact is that they don\u2019t win you any votes, do they? That\u2019s probably a good thing for the National Party to think about today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022 data-id=\u00223ba345bb83c488838f06ab29ac68eb1c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ba345bb83c488838f06ab29ac68eb1c\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health) (20:29)\u003C/span\u003E: That is from a former Minister of Health who absolutely failed our health system, left more and more thousands and thousands more patients waiting on wait-lists, and now she\u2019s here complaining about the very people trying to clean up her mess. She was more focused on restructuring a health system during a pandemic, rather than actually getting patients seen, and getting patients off the waiting lists. That\u2019s what this Government is doing.  That\u2019s what we\u2019re achieving, and I\u2019m the first to acknowledge there\u2019s more work to do, but we are getting it done. I would just say, one of the additional talking points I might add to my repertoire is the good people of Dunedin are seeing the Dunedin Hospital getting built, and that\u2019s good. We\u2019re delivering; they\u2019re talking, and they failed New Zealanders on health for their six long years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a780a5913a791cac2f886104ee097b6d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, our time with the Minister of Health has ended. The Minister of Education is now available for one hour to respond to members\u2019 questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220bf8446f393dda9a4bd64f6d4eff3274\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u2014Annual Review Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u0022518bd1f26cb555a01b04902971f19bb0\u0022\u003EEducation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c96149a439844ecfa86967f9caf5f50d\u0022 data-id=\u002294e3826afae9a6320986256442b066f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c96149a439844ecfa86967f9caf5f50d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294e3826afae9a6320986256442b066f1\u0022\u003EKATIE NIMON (Chairperson of the Education and Workforce Committee) (20:30)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a pleasure to stand up on behalf of the Education and Workforce Committee. I always need to acknowledge the constructive and hard-working Education and Workforce Committee, and I also want to acknowledge my deputy chair who was chairing at the time of these annual reviews last year as I was away with my newborn son.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELook, just to introduce what it is that we discussed, to introduce the debate, we discussed the newly arranged Charter School Agency and the establishment of that, the way it was performing in its role. We talked through the Education Review Office, as we always do. We heard from them their performance, their reviews, and the national-level reports and publications that they take and have in the financial year 2024-2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe then focused\u2014and as you would expect, most of our time is spent on the Ministry of Education itself. We talked about the ministry\u2019s performance, of course. We talked about achievement and curriculum reform. We talked about student achievement, attendance, participation, and school readiness, which is always something that comes up for the Education and Workforce Committee; equally, about learning support\u2014learning support was a focus for our committee and has been for the term\u2014and navigating and evaluating the role of a system steward, which was something relatively new at the time. As well as that, of course, the school property network and the maintenance of that, which has been a key theme. We talked to the New Zealand Qualifications Authority and the way that has been, through the 2024-25 period. Verifying international qualifications was a key theme. Then, moving on to the Tertiary Education Commission and the performance and outlook of the commission, both in vocational and for the university institutions. Then, beyond that, we had some proforma reviews with Network for Learning, Education Payroll, the New Zealand Institute of Skills and Technology. So it was robust scrutiny. I look forward to the debate, and that is my introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022 data-id=\u0022102ec3a997f697c6eab79357f8b02292\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022102ec3a997f697c6eab79357f8b02292\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education) (20:33)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Can I just start by thanking the Education and Workforce Committee for all the work they do and for the two chairs that they\u2019ve had over that time. We are undertaking a significant reform of the education system after decades of decline\u2014and that is what we are responding to: decades of decline and a briefing to the incoming Minister that said that we are not providing excellent or equitable outcomes in one of the first sentences in that report. That\u2019s why we\u2019re undertaking the significant reform programme to reverse those decades of decline and make sure that we are actually providing equitable and excellent outcomes for students, and so that parents can feel confident when they send their children to school, no matter where they go to school and which classroom, across any part of the country, that they are receiving a world-leading education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOur education reforms are based on our six priority areas that have not changed in two years: curriculum, assessment, teacher practice or pedagogy, learning support, developing the workforce of the future, and data. There was, sort of\u2014another one slipped in there, which we weren\u2019t expecting, which is school property, which we\u2019ve been undertaking a lot of work on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe thing that I am really proud of, though, most recently, was our Budget 2025, which was the largest injection into learning support in a generation: three-quarters of a billion dollars to make sure that all students are supported no matter what their need. The package was split into three: universal supports, targeted and tailored, and those of the highest need and the supports that they need. I guess, I\u2019m briefly just going to talk to some of the highlights of that package. Firstly, that every single school in year 0 to year 8 will have access to a learning support coordinator, and we are rolling those out. In fact, 474 individual learning support coordinators started this year, which is exciting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAnother thing I\u2019m very proud of is the historic overhaul of the ORS scheme\u2014or the Ongoing Resource Scheme\u2014to make sure that we are moving to a demand-driven model, something that I remember the previous Secretary for Education saying to me: \u201CMinister, you\u2019ll struggle to get that one over the line.\u201D But we have, and we have seen an uptick in the number of children accessing ORS, which I\u2019m extraordinarily proud of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAlso another highlight is the Early Intervention Service expanding from early childhood education (ECE) right through to the end of year 1, to support successful transition from ECE into schools so that you don\u2019t have to start the process all over again of applying for support. That is a significant investment of $266 million into the Early Intervention Service, with hundreds of thousands of hours of teacher aid support going into that. In fact, across all categories, there will be an additional 2 million teacher aide hours into the system every single year from 2028. In 2025-26, 896 and then almost 1.6\u00A0million and then 2 million. It was a huge budget. It was a significant moment and one I\u2019m extraordinarily proud of in one of our six key priority areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI also want to take just the last part of this contribution to sincerely thank all of the teachers, school leaders, principals, and support staff across the country who are implementing these reforms on the ground. We are already starting to see the early signs of success, be that in the phonics check or some of the maths data coming through. It is a significant reform. Essentially, what we\u2019ve done\u2014the reforms really started at the beginning of last year. We\u2019ve had, essentially, five terms now of reform. We\u2019re already starting to see some really encouraging results. But it is a massive shift and we owe a huge debt of gratitude for those principals and teachers on the ground who are changing their teaching practice, who are already seeing results on the ground. In the Education Review Office report\u2014that well over 80 percent of teachers in English and maths have already changed their teacher practice and were seeing improvements in their classrooms is extraordinarily satisfying. I wanted to, once again, just say thank you to all of them for all of their hard work in implementing this reform programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022 data-id=\u00227c9ad3243fbf96da783c4c9fe7e8b055\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c9ad3243fbf96da783c4c9fe7e8b055\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green) (20:37)\u003C/span\u003E: I want to start with a series of questions for the Minister around Te Tiriti o Waitangi. The first question is: did M\u0101ori cede sovereignty? Is the Minister going to respond to the question? If not, I can keep going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296e651fe357392254ac22bac89cbd8a7\u0022\u003EHon James Meager\u003C/span\u003E: What annual review was that in?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cd6f1d4dc582704b0ae173b995bf9d0\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: This is the Treaty section, which is something that happened during this particular annual review year. All right, if the Minister is refusing to respond to a simple question\u2014I\u2019m asking the Minister: did M\u0101ori cede sovereignty? Is the Minister going to respond? If not, I will continue on. If the Minister does not believe that M\u0101ori ceded sovereignty, why does the new history curriculum consider Te Tiriti o Waitangi and whether M\u0101ori ceded sovereignty debatable or contestable? Would the Minister respond to that question? It is history curriculum. In your introductory remarks\u2014by both the Minister and also by the chair of the Education and Workforce Committee\u2014it talks about curriculum being a focus of the annual review that we conducted. Will the Minister respond to the question on the history curriculum?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ENo? I\u2019m going to keep going. So, in that case, when we are looking at the changes and the removal of Te Tiriti of Waitangi from section 127 of the Education and Training Act, what consultation then did the Minister actually conduct with the NZ School Boards Association as a part of that removal? [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EWaits for Minister to respond\u003C/span\u003E] Wow, OK. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002288978fb9592a4911a8e47eae04d164f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a78fcd18ff2c5d5c23b4019435f45c9\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: Get them all out, Lawrence. Get them all out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225485102b3c43fe4371a9fc13c8172a08\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the idea is to have a bit of a back and forth with the Minister. If the Minister wants to respond to some of that\u2014or then I can keep going. I can ask one final question and the Minister can choose to respond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fdd41be113e3097041cd3b2a38d2080\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not unusual for a Minister to receive a bulk of questions and then come back with responses. I\u2019m not saying that\u2019s what the Minister is going to do, but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cce98bb2311482826dcbef0c41c12b0e\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: In that case, final question\u2014thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb30bdae26594d3d8fc7dadb62f7289e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Keep asking the same question and you\u2019ll get the same response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd40927a38185164ae17aee90cb413a5\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: Final question is: what does the Minister think is the Crown\u2019s relationship with Ng\u0101 Kura \u0101 Iwi o Aotearoa?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022 data-id=\u0022cde98438adde5b27647e2040b9276a6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cde98438adde5b27647e2040b9276a6a\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education) (20:39)\u003C/span\u003E: Just around the history curriculum, at the moment it\u2019s out for consultation. It\u2019s not finalised, it\u2019s not been gazetted, it\u2019s out for consultation. I would\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223693c0bb85563a6fc013723fb6fea709\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it even in there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222db65cc926faaff7da9bd7529877aad6\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I say to the member, if there are issues that you would like to raise, you and anyone else is able to put your thoughts down in the consultation process. It\u2019s been open for six months and it\u2019s open for a few more days yet. And you\u2019re welcome to throw any thoughts through to my office and I will pass it on to the team. I\u2019m not the person, obviously, holding the pen on the history curriculum, but if you would like to make some comments around that in that process, you\u2019re absolutely welcome to, like anyone is. We\u2019re undertaking that consultation period at the moment and will listen to lots of different views. There have been quite a lot of people who\u2019ve had their say, and we will go through that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAround section 127\u2014and it\u2019s been well traversed\u2014it was a decision that we made. If you watched the proceedings of the Waitangi Tribunal, we\u2019ve been open and honest about the fact that, nope, we didn\u2019t consult. It was a decision that we took, and it\u2019s now already been passed. We\u2019ve been open and honest about the fact that we didn\u2019t undertake any consultation, but it is a decision that we made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI would like to point out that\u2014and things I\u2019ve always said is that\u2014the key responsibility for the Treaty of Waitangi sits with the Crown. It is not to be delegated out to a school board. We hold very closely that obligation. I have spent a huge amount of my time making sure that we are equitably resourcing a bilingual education system, be that through curriculum reform, through professional learning and development, be that through resourcing our schools. Every single thing that we have done has been equally and equitably done in both systems. Whether it\u2019s in the New Zealand Curriculum or Te Marautanga o Aotearoa, we\u2019ve been equally resourcing those as best we can at the same time. As far as I can see, no previous Government has ever done that to the level that we are. That is because I take my duty very, very seriously. I expect that schools will continue to report\u2014or they have to legally report\u2014on outcomes for M\u0101ori students, but the responsibility for those outcomes lies with me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1a9dea01a17855f6343b3bf8a95d853\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1a9dea01a17855f6343b3bf8a95d853\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour) (20:42)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Every parent wants the same thing for their children: an education system where their child is supported and given the tools to build a future in the world they\u2019re going to live. New Zealand schools were building towards that. What they needed was steady investment, not an overhaul driven by ideology. This Government chose disruption over progress. They promised to fix education, but instead they\u2019ve made it worse\u2014a curriculum built on memorising facts and being tested on them is not modern learning. Young people need to analyse, problem solve, and think for themselves. Independent thinking has never mattered more, and precisely what rote learning fails to teach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI have a number of questions about the curriculum in particular. I would like to understand from the Minister: is she confident in her previous assertions that the curriculum was, in fact, written by Kiwis, for Kiwis? I would like to know if she would categorically state that not one line of the curriculum was written by anyone based outside of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI would also like to know\u2014maybe the members opposite would like to know\u2014whether any of the curriculum was generated by AI, as some content appears to have been done so when looking at that. In addition to wanting to know those specific elements around New Zealand content and the Treaty in the curriculum, would she be able to clarify whether vocational pathways will be ready in time in that curriculum?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022 data-id=\u00227a5a7a8b0bd043d260b6ac4a144f8f89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a5a7a8b0bd043d260b6ac4a144f8f89\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education) (20:44)\u003C/span\u003E: I want to respond to the member\u2019s claims about facts. I hear this a lot from people in her party and from her persuasion that kids don\u2019t need to know facts; that, in fact, you can just use the internet, use AI, use Google, and they\u2019re all at the touch of a finger. I would suggest that that member go and read some of the research that\u2019s been undertaken by people like Dan Willingham, Nathaniel Swain, and Natalie Wexler, who talk in depth about the importance of knowledge. Because the fact of the matter is, without knowledge, it is very difficult to think critically. You can\u2019t think critically or problem solve about stuff you don\u2019t know about. Knowledge sticks to knowledge. You have to have a schema in your brain to pull facts into and to have them on hand to be able to think critically.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAll of the latest research and evidence in cognitive science and cognitive research points to the fact that prior knowledge is extraordinarily important for those higher-level skills. We all want critical thinking and problem solving and collaborative learning, but you can\u2019t think critically about a historical event you don\u2019t know the facts about. Unless we teach our children those facts, then they will not be able to think critically. That is what that member absolutely fails to understand. It makes me wake up in a cold sweat, quite frankly, thinking about her potentially being the Minister of Education, stripping our curriculum once again of facts, because they are so important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, I think the other thing that the member wanted to know about was the vocational subjects or the industry-led subjects. We\u2019ve said many times that we want them to be seen on an equal footing with the ministry-led subjects. Our intention is that they will be ready at the same time as the ministry-led subjects when they come to implementation in 2028-2029. That work is under way now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022 data-id=\u002295d07f20839f8f4e245afe9cba67a601\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295d07f20839f8f4e245afe9cba67a601\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green) (20:46)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I also note that I asked five questions of the Minister and she answered two. In the standard assessment, that would be considered not achieved. Continuing on with the curriculum and NCEA, I want to check with the Minister: how many people were consulted on the scrapping of NCEA?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOK. I will continue. How many people, and who, were consulted on the curriculum changes? Those are my two first questions. I\u2019m going to be tracking how many questions I\u2019m asking the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWas the scrapping of NCEA ever explicitly consulted on? I.e., the data that is being drawn consulted on NCEA level 1, not NCEA levels 2 and 3. Were NCEA levels 2 and 3 ever explicitly consulted on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat happens to phase 1 and 4 when it comes to curriculum development and how come phase 5 is currently going ahead?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhy has the Minister backtracked on what she said in \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EHansard\u003C/span\u003E\u2014which is on \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EHansard\u003C/span\u003E in 2024\u2014criticising the previous Government of a cart before the horse approach with qualification changes before curriculum, yet we\u2019re seeing the same thing happening currently?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAlso, final question for the Minister. Currently\u2014I guess this is question number six\u2014what is the difference between a curriculum and a syllabus?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022 data-id=\u002211642c08ce478de728acd13a7d091409\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211642c08ce478de728acd13a7d091409\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education) (20:48)\u003C/span\u003E: Around the question about NCEA and the curriculum, as I think that member knows, or should know, the NCEA reforms have gone out for full public consultation. We put some ideas out for consultation. They went out and we have had full feedback on that. We\u2019ve had over 10,000 pieces of feedback come in. The ministry has gone through all of that. So full public consultation, and there were some things raised, for example, that we hadn\u2019t considered, which were making science compulsory at year 11, for example. So full consultation. The same with the curriculum. It is out for full public consultation for a period of six months for phase 1 to 4. We did that also with English and maths before it was gazetted. The phase 5 subjects will also go out for full consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EWhat we did also in addition to that was, after consultation and on implementation with English and maths, we went back and said to the sector, \u201CWhat do you think? You\u2019ve had a year of teaching this, are there any tweaks you\u2019d like to make?\u201D We took that on board and we made some further changes. So full consultation, implementation, and then continually making tweaks where we need to on advice from the sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022 data-id=\u0022f02fc9b1a80fb327b7279e8c6deaed50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f02fc9b1a80fb327b7279e8c6deaed50\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour) (20:50)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. The Minister of Education, in her answers earlier, said that she wanted to be really open and honest around Te Tiriti o Waitangi and the section 127 changes. We know that there was no consultation with M\u0101ori and that she went against the advice of her own ministry. In talking about how she has been open and honest about all of this, why was she not open and honest with our select committee and the public that the Minister was also undertaking proposed changes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adb507d6600b45ce10b3f8581d4bb4f4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I think that the way the member is approaching that question is a bit borderline. We won\u2019t question honesty. Repeat the question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2d4050d62ded67673de91f4a8ee3f3f\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: No, she said the words herself: \u201Chonest\u201D and \u201Copen\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297529c7d33d734f6a72f03d33119ee3e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: So you\u2019re questioning\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225229ddbd42a9d2e01251b89d112796eb\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m quoting her back, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7a6d341601f224266d18a1b1bbbdf95\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s a quote, but don\u2019t question someone\u2019s honesty\u2014OK?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206115d56293ff5e21a2278bd393bd6d6\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Sure. Why did the Minister not tell the Education and Workforce Committee and not tell the public that she is proposing to make further changes to the Treaty provisions within the Education and Training Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022 data-id=\u00229829b8983c182bf1dcd9a1b4169ee016\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229829b8983c182bf1dcd9a1b4169ee016\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour) (20:51)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I appreciate the answers that the Minister of Education has already been forthcoming with, but two, though, I still haven\u2019t received, and I\u2019m happy to follow up with written questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI would like to know whether she can categorically state that not one line of the curriculum was written by anyone based outside of New Zealand. I think that parents watching this at home would like to know if AI was used to generate any of the curriculum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI also would like to know a couple of things about NCEA, as we\u2019ve gone on to that topic. We would like to know, in proportion and in general, how many were for it and how many were against it. I\u2019m sure that she could indicate that from having received those submissions. I\u2019d also be interested to know whether she was advised at any point that the changes that she wanted to make to NCEA could be achieved within NCEA. That would be really good to note. The last question I have in relation to NCEA is: what has the total cost been to date of the NCEA change process? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6ce9411ee8bea18623a87f350b0e8ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6ce9411ee8bea18623a87f350b0e8ab\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education) (20:52)\u003C/span\u003E: Just in answer to those ones, I can tell the member Ginny Andersen that the Ministry of Education officials wrote the curriculum. No AI was used in the writing of the curriculum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, in terms of her question around NCEA and whether or not the outcomes could be gained by tweaking or making changes to NCEA, I didn\u2019t become a Minister thinking that we would need to change NCEA hugely, until we started to see reports and we started to see what the previous Government had tried to do, but it hadn\u2019t worked. In fact, one of the biggest challenges facing me when I came in to become the Minister was having a sector say to me that the NCEA changes that had been implemented by the previous Government were not manageable, that they hadn\u2019t had what they needed and that they hadn\u2019t had the resourcing or the exemplars, and that they were not ready. In fact, I remember seeing the percentage of teachers and principals who said that they were ready, and it was pretty woeful. They also said to me, \u201CMinister, it\u2019s too late to stop. We have to go ahead. What can you do?\u201D, and so we put a whole lot of things in place as quickly as we could to try and smooth it through as quickly as we could. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think the thing that we learnt was that multiple Governments had tried to make changes, but nothing had ever changed. We still had hundreds of thousands of students who weren\u2019t sitting exams. We still had complete inconsistency around the country. Students were sitting different standards in English, for example, than in other schools, under the guise of tailoring to individual needs, but what we saw was complete inconsistency and a cherry-picking of standards to get kids across the line, and I think it was very telling\u2014and I know that this is why the previous Government implemented the literacy and numeracy corequisite\u2014that they even had to do that, because students were getting NCEA who were not literate and numerate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat tells you everything that you need to know about a national qualification system that was producing children who were not literate and numerate. In fact, when that Government introduced the literacy and numeracy corequisite, children were failing at massive levels\u2014and it\u2019s a huge credit to the sector for increasing those numbers\u2014but what they failed to do was implement a reform at primary and intermediate to get kids up to where they needed to be, which is what we have spent time and huge cost doing. Now, the next step is to create a qualifications system that is consistent across the country and that is led by a curriculum, and not by standards that can be plucked and chosen randomly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat we want to see is not compatible with the current NCEA. If you wanted to have consistency of curriculum, then a standards-based assessment is completely incompatible with that. We are writing, and\u2014in answer to a previous member\u2019s question about putting the cart before the horse\u2014we\u2019re doing both at the same time because we have to. We have to because that\u2019s the situation we were left in, otherwise it would take us far longer to get there. We\u2019d have this weird situation of having new level 1 and old level 2, which we know isn\u2019t working, and so we\u2019re working as quickly as we can to do everything at the same time. What we are producing is a world-leading qualifications system that is based on a world-leading curriculum where it doesn\u2019t matter where you go to school, you have access to the same high-quality curriculum, learning skills and knowledge to set you up for success. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022 data-id=\u00221185e6bc707e2b3782b43c7781b154c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221185e6bc707e2b3782b43c7781b154c5\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour) (20:55)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I haven\u2019t had an answer to my earlier question, and I look forward to the Minister of Education answering that. I also wanted to ask about why the consultation time for Te Marautanga is half that of the curriculum\u2019s time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022 data-id=\u002212550be79a7f569861a9ab5cfffa0b3c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212550be79a7f569861a9ab5cfffa0b3c\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education) (20:56)\u003C/span\u003E: It is the case that Te Marautanga hasn\u2019t had the same time frame for consultation. Now, the reason for that is that we believe in having a properly resourced and funded bilingual education system, and it\u2019s really important to us to make sure that Te Marautanga and the New Zealand Curriculum are being developed at the same time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EWhen I came to become the Minister and looked at what had been done, a lot of work had been done by the previous Government on the New Zealand Curriculum, but no work had been done on Te Marautanga o Aotearoa\u2014nothing at all. Not a single word of the new curriculum in Te Marautanga\u2014the update refresh\u2014had been done. Not a single word, not one word\u2014zero. We were starting from\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221960491cad8134abd4e7b388a29a0938\u0022\u003EHon Member: \u003C/span\u003EThat is not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f626ffe002866fc4f8ece4234e945cc\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, there was lots of virtue signalling, but not a single word was written. Lots of work had been done had been done on English and maths and on other learning areas, but nothing in Te Marautanga. Your Government had completely left it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe have had to accelerate that work. We have accelerated it so that it\u2019s being done at the same time, and that has meant that there isn\u2019t as much consultation period available, but what we have done to counter that is to make sure that we have contacted those M\u0101ori-medium schools and kura kaupapa and said that we will provide them in-person, or via webinars, the ability to feed back so that we are getting really good, rich feedback. That was really important to us, or otherwise Te Marautanga was going to be on a much longer track. We didn\u2019t want that, because it\u2019s not fair to M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EEverything we are doing in the mainstream, we\u2019re also doing for M\u0101ori-medium education as well, whether that\u2019s professional learning and development, resourcing, or writing the curriculum. I\u2019m extraordinarily proud of that, and the previous Government didn\u2019t do it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022 data-id=\u00229682e6bb969354cc1a67ed235af4bebb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229682e6bb969354cc1a67ed235af4bebb\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green) (20:58)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Madam Chair, I want to check, just following up from the previous question. When it comes to the consultation time for Te Marautanga, I also note to the Minister that some of the other questions I have regarding the Crown\u2019s relationship and obligation and agreement with Ng\u0101 Kura-\u0101-Iwi o Aotearoa, and some of the other changes\u2014my question is: does the Minister think that the Crown has upheld their obligation under section 6 and section 9 of the Education and Training Act? Because that was one of the reasons why the Minister said that section 127\u2014Te Tiriti was removed from that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EMy second question is around the Minister\u2019s response around NCEA consultation. I\u2019m not asking in terms of the consultation that\u2019s happening right now in terms of the new qualification. I\u2019m asking: before the decision was made on scrapping NCEA to something different, whose report and how many people were consulted when that initial consideration was made? If the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind responding to those questions for the time being.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022 data-id=\u00223e797a4d16c3bdcc3f4df3384ab379b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e797a4d16c3bdcc3f4df3384ab379b1\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour) (20:59)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I just have a couple of questions and around some of the contracts that have been entered into with the Minister of Education in the past year. In terms of the benchmarking of the curriculum, I\u2019m interested to know why that wasn\u2019t put out for tender and why it was an Australian outfit\u2014I think Learning First\u2014that was involved in that work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy next question is in relation to the Student Monitoring, Assessment and Reporting Tool (SMART), and I wanted to know if she was aware of any ministry staff or contractors involved in the SMART project who also worked or advised Janison Solutions during that tender process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy third question in relation to that is really in and around: did she discuss the Teachers\u2019 Institute programme, or its new provider the Tertiary Education Commission, funding application for the 2025 year with anyone at the Ministry of Education prior to the funding being approved, and, if so, what was discussed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea0e7d197c7c01b2aeddee04f56eb4fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea0e7d197c7c01b2aeddee04f56eb4fa\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education) (21:00)\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s questions around who we consulted with prior to putting these proposals forward, I got together a group, a professional advisory group of principals from around New Zealand representing a range of different schools\u2014area schools, rural schools, kura kaupapa, different deciles or equity indexes; a range of different people\u2014chaired by Patrick Gale. They helped in framing some of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe also had advice from the Education Review Office, we had advice from NZQA as well, and that\u2019s what we went out to full consultation with, and we are still making decisions on some of the very highly technical parts of it; as you know, some of the big, foundational parts we\u2019ve set have gone through Cabinet, but there are some more technical decisions to be made, and we are using the professional advisory group and a technical advisory group to run through all of those second-level decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn relation to the next set of questions\u2014very operational, and I can\u2019t answer them. Around the Student Monitoring, Assessment, and Reporting Tool and Janison, all I can say is that I would expect that the Ministry of Education run a proper request for proposal process for such a major piece of infrastructure. I\u2019m sure that they have, and I\u2019ve got no knowledge of any of the things that the member speaks of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn relation to the Teachers\u2019 Institute, I don\u2019t discuss any particular organisation when it comes to funding with my ministerial officials.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022 data-id=\u0022597dac3b745ead2510e92301dc6fae7d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022597dac3b745ead2510e92301dc6fae7d\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour) (21:02)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to move into the tertiary education component of the debate tonight, and I know that this Minister is very willing to answer questions and in that manner I will be posing a number of questions and no doubt will to and fro over a few of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227d19573a8ba4d8283b17374978c8ea2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220084fde9888ad648104cf0cf28233ba4\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: About NorthTec? Great result to NorthTec.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295a4607a8beceb2c609784c14d9b0dcf\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: NorthTec\u2014I can talk about NorthTec if you want. The first question is: what actions were taken by the Minister to remove references to Te Tiriti o Waitangi in legislation pertaining to tertiary education? No answer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234da96642165d9b9a81e8ca500282a43\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I think probably you will ask a series of questions and then you can expect\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022183eced474e1b9666b9aa1925299d50a\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I thought it was a to and fro like last time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221326fa8ad2cad34ff919b71b2e41e3d9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Well it appears not right now, so you keep asking your questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bac4b1b7a6e7ee3e5915601122ccf314\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: No worries. I\u2019ve got more where those came from. How do apprentice enrolments in this period compare to the previous year? The Not in Education, Employment or Training numbers peaked at 90,000, the size of a city like Tauranga. What action did she take over this period, and why did this number increase over that period?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u002230b8db3aa5ebb0f11045c5a5c97b9f39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230b8db3aa5ebb0f11045c5a5c97b9f39\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Tertiary Education) (21:03)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. The member is quite right that Not in Education, Employment or Training (NEET) numbers have increased over this time. Obviously, when unemployment goes up, NEET numbers go up and it\u2019s an area that I am very concerned about, as are a number of my colleagues. Minister Stanford, Minister Upston, and myself meet regularly and talk about this regularly. So the increase to the Youth Guarantee places was a direct result of our concerns around the NEETs. As the member Shanan Halbert\u2014who\u2019s very familiar with the sector\u2014knows, Youth Guarantee is a scheme that enables those who have not achieved or have not been successful in their compulsory schooling and who are not employed, to get additional assistance. It\u2019s funded at a higher rate and so the NEETs that partake in the Youth Guarantee programmes don\u2019t have to pay fees and don\u2019t have to pay for their equipment or the things that they might need for it. They get additional support from their provider. It\u2019s a very important part of taking our young people who have not achieved in their education to date and giving them a second chance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIn terms of apprentice numbers: yes, apprentice numbers during the period of work\u2014I\u2019ll broaden it out to work-based learning because some are apprentices and some are trainees. Work-based learning went back by 11 percent, I think it is, which again is completely expected\u2014when unemployment occurs, it rises. Then the numbers being taken into apprenticeships go down as well. Eleven percent, I believe it was, over that period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022 data-id=\u002238efc12dade28a137eb9a5ef687e5fe5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238efc12dade28a137eb9a5ef687e5fe5\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour) (21:06)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Moving on to universities, the report highlights that 443,000-odd Tertiary Education Commission - funded learners are enrolled in tertiary education, including universities. However, universities have recently revealed that they haven\u2019t received enough funding to cover all of their students over this period. A series of questions here, the first one being: has she seen any advice that highlights that rising unemployment will lead to rising domestic enrolments at our universities? No answer to that question. How many universities\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234b2feb66c21f6ce04cebf8eb89155d3\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: You know how this works\u2014ask all the questions in one go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d6cfd3497fb752ca9cc93ed94b940ed\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, are you the Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a42975858efb3bf0ad5a6c8e9f07dc7\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m just helping you out. Clearly you need it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220ddfadf5e261160792eacf37465b559\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I think, when we\u2019re on time-limited debates, the Government backbenchers should perhaps not use up so much of their time and cut Ministers short, but I\u2019d also advise Mr Halbert that the Minister will get up and answer the questions, but it may not be specifically one on one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f272bd35178bf72b5c12923adc6d0e91\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. It is also helpful, Madam Chair, when we\u2019re going down a line of questioning, that we get an answer from the Minister so that then we can get\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8a25274df1b6ff4592eadd2039c228e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that, but the Minister is very good at answering the questions and she will\u2014she will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5611a2d28577c7749b5453386e0698b\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Second question, then, is: how many universities have had to carry unfunded domestic students as a result of her Government\u2019s choices?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u00221658a31d51889e62bab4d09093060b44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221658a31d51889e62bab4d09093060b44\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Tertiary Education) (21:07)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, the member is quite right that there have been unfunded places in the universities and also in a number of private training establishments (PTEs) and polytechnics as well. It\u2019s not an uncommon thing to have unfunded places. I think it\u2019s also really important to look at the number of bodies and the equivalent full-time students (EFTS) because what has been occurring in the university sector over time is a greater proportion of EFT per student, so more than one full EFT per student attached. So yes, you can get unfunded EFTS showing up, but it may not be as many unfunded people. I\u2019ll get those figures specifically for the member because I think\u2014I\u2019m looking, but I think we\u2019re up to about 1.3 funded EFT per student, and I\u2019m hopefully getting that right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a15bc6eabb33e35bac19281810b2124a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to have to just ask someone\u2014the whips, maybe\u2014to deliver from the officials.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a311094e5c33dab9f76aab5f14f8da00\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: To pop that along, OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1c377570848be263b89813dd06a75e8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022477f16b1f767241417d97da985bbbc1f\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I\u2019ll get that detail for the member because that does make a difference. You\u2019re quite right, there are unfunded places and there will be unfunded places again this year. It\u2019s not an uncommon thing for the universities, polytechnics, and PTEs to run unfunded places.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ESome unfunded places are easier to cope with than others. If you\u2019ve got 350 students in a lecture theatre for Marketing 101, another five additional bodies in there without being funded is not going to place particular stress on an institution. Where it becomes problematic is where there are constraints around how many can be in a lab or something like that. It\u2019s not uncommon to carry unfunded places\u2014yes, they are; so are PTEs and so are polytechnics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc29bcd4de5da3fd48a872f59db86afc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc29bcd4de5da3fd48a872f59db86afc\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour) (21:10)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. These are my final few questions. As I understand it, it is uncommon that the Government does not fund the additional places through overs and unders, if I am correct, Minister Simmonds, at universities, as has been done in previous years. What universities have told her they\u2019ll have to make up the shortfall in other areas by cutting courses, if any? Will the Government act to ensure that universities don\u2019t have to carry unfunded students in the future? I would like to understand what action the Minister has taken to address that in this 2024-2025 period and into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u002225f79405716fe27462bf5bbb2ccb517b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225f79405716fe27462bf5bbb2ccb517b\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Tertiary Education) (21:10)\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member Shanan Halbert isn\u2019t quite right on that. It is common to carry unfunded places at different times. Most institutions do that, particularly if they are looking for growth. I would disagree with the member when he says it is uncommon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIn terms of the Budget last year, we did have additional funding. Now, I know the member\u2014and I\u2019ll just try and get the figures for the member\u2014sometimes gets confused with the full amount of additional funding and the fact that Fees Free transferred from the Tertiary Education Commission to IRD. That reduced some of the budget, but there was an additional $111.4 million put into a fund forecast volume in those levels three to 10 for that Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3501dda69bf48eb607ef898da16e54d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3501dda69bf48eb607ef898da16e54d\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green) (21:12)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a few questions for the Minister on the Student Monitoring, Assessment and Reporting Tool (SMART) as well. The first question is: why did the Minister go against Treasury\u2019s advice in the supplementary Budget bid for $79 million when the Treasury\u2019s advice was to not go ahead with the SMART tool?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy second question is: what viability test has been done on the SMART tool before the request for proposal went out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy third question for the Minister is: when the SMART tool was implemented and was rolled out to schools, why has the security certification and accreditation report, which is fundamental to Government procurement, not yet been completed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022 data-id=\u00227c95304033ca5d89dddd6c74dcea2f5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c95304033ca5d89dddd6c74dcea2f5b\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour) (21:12)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I\u2019ve got a few questions around the Teaching Council. I\u2019m interested to know\u2014my first question is: what rationale is there behind the Minister of Education giving herself the power to appoint two-thirds of the Teaching Council?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy next question is in relation to the letter she wrote to the Teaching Council in which she\u2019s asked them to bring in a King\u2019s Counsel to look at the Fisher case\u2014whether that is actually happening or not; an update on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy third question is in and around the chair of the Teaching Council. We\u2019ve traversed it well, we know, around the text messages and the funding, but my question is that when the application for the $750,000 for the Teachers\u2019 Institute was initially declined by the panel but then subsequently was overruled by the deputy chief executive of education, the grounds for that panel decision being overruled in order to provide funding was for two things: that it needed approval from NZQA\u2014the New Zealand Qualifications Authority\u2014and it also needed approval from the Teaching Council. Now, David Ferguson was subsequently appointed to both of those bodies, I understand. What I would like to know is: was his appointment active at the time when those two bodies then clearly approved his $750,000 worth of funding, and is she concerned with the multiple layers of conflicts of interests that clearly exist here?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022 data-id=\u00229756f248f57685c611961bfb89d13196\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229756f248f57685c611961bfb89d13196\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education) (21:14)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to go backwards from the last part. That is completely operational; I can\u2019t answer any of her questions. If she had questions about that, she should\u2019ve put them\u2014and maybe she did\u2014to my officials, because they are entirely operational.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAround the letter I wrote to the Teaching Council, it wasn\u2019t specifically about the Fisher case; it was in relation to the report that Debbie Francis had undertaken and the serious claims that were raised in that report around the fact that the Teaching Council were not acting in a way that was properly protecting children. It was a pretty difficult report to read and, I think, made many people, including Debbie Francis, question whether or not the Teaching Council have been undertaking their duties of child protection in the right way. It is my view that an independent person needs to take a look back at some of the decisions that have been made so that the public and the sector can have confidence, or to see if any changes need to be made in the operations of the Teaching Council. From my understanding, the latest I\u2019ve heard from the Teaching Council is that they are undertaking that work and that they are appointing a King\u2019s Counsel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn relation to\u2014and this goes on to the first question that the member raised around the changing of the appointments to be mostly ministerial, like they were prior to the changes that the previous Labour Government made. I think it\u2019s pretty clear, when you read that report, that the Teaching Council were in a very difficult state. There were a number of things that they weren\u2019t doing properly. There were a number of concerns that were raised, and the board had been overseeing this for many years, and I did not have confidence that process could carry on. I think it is important to make sure that the skills and experience needed to run a regulatory body that is ensuring the protection of our children and properly regulating the workforce\u2014to have a board that can properly make sure that that is put in place. So, yes, it is really important to me to make sure that there is good governance, good risk management, someone in there that knows about regulatory systems, someone there that knows about disciplinary systems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt is also really important to have people who are teachers as well, and I think the members will know that the people that I have so far appointed to the board have predominantly been principals and teachers. In fact, I think most of them are principals, and very well-regarded principals, in fact, who are doing an extraordinarily good job at fixing the Teaching Council. As I say, that was a pretty poor situation, if you read that report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAs I\u2019ve already said, after all of this, I have taken, and I\u2019m going to be continuing to take, further advice on further steps we may need to take, because this is extraordinarily important to make sure that the right people are governing the Teaching Council to ensure the protection of children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4fd34768f7d8a832177d9ccc8b454a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4fd34768f7d8a832177d9ccc8b454a6\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour) (21:17)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much. I appreciate the Minister of Education\u2019s answers. To a degree, yes, there are operational elements, but as the Minister, does she believe that a conflict of interest exists, or even a perception, from the general public, of a conflict of interest if someone received funding for the Teachers\u2019 Institute that was contingent on the New Zealand Qualifications Authority and the Teachers Council approval, and that person, under her ministerial watch, is then subsequently appointed to both of those bodies that then approved the funding? Does she believe there is a perception of a conflict of interest around the current chair of the Teaching Council?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022 data-id=\u00222df7178e5ef3b5cec9ae0160939da02b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222df7178e5ef3b5cec9ae0160939da02b\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green) (21:18)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. On the Teaching Council, I also have a few questions. On the Debbie Francis report, I hear what the Minister of Education is saying. Can I check with the Minister: what is the Criminal Records (Clean Slate) Act? Does the Minister understand the Criminal Records (Clean Slate) Act? First question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy follow-up question is: has the Minister received any advice from the Teaching Council on the clean slate Act regarding, particularly, the case that has been highlighted in the media around Fisher? Has the Minister received any advice from the Teaching Council on the clean slate Act and its implications to the appointment of teachers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFinally, I want to check with the Minister on early childhood education (ECE). In terms of early childhood education, can I check with the Minister: when it comes to for-profit ECE centres and community and not-for-profit ECE centres, is the Minister tracking the quality of education that\u2019s being provided by varying groups within the ECE sphere?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022 data-id=\u00223e7cd5dc4f7c6ca58fcac18ddfce1ec1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e7cd5dc4f7c6ca58fcac18ddfce1ec1\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education) (21:19)\u003C/span\u003E: Right, there are a number of questions there. Around early childhood education, I\u2019m expecting Minister Seymour any moment now, so you can direct your questions to him\u2014for the most part, that\u2019s his responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn terms of the Criminal Records (Clean Slate) Act, the Ministry of Education has had advice\u2014we\u2019ve had advice; I\u2019ve had advice\u2014on the clean slate Act, and I\u2019ve asked the Ministry of Education to look into it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn relation to the Teaching Council, the first thing was that the chair, Mr David Ferguson, was appointed to the Teaching Council mid-2025, by which time the Teachers\u2019 Institute was already delivering on-site teacher training. I understand that a full conflict of interest process was undertaken in line with the Public Service Commission guidance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u00225ceb12df72dacb45de2b7a37ffc51478\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ceb12df72dacb45de2b7a37ffc51478\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (21:20)\u003C/span\u003E: \u003Cspan lang=\u0022rar\u0022\u003EKia orana.\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to ask the Minister of Education questions around school rural buses, because this is a big and important issue. The pause to the roll-out of the review, which the Minister herself has agreed with, is good for communities, like the East Coast, where the pause has, effectively, been put in place, but for schools in my area of Palmerston North, Manawat\u016B, Horowhenua, and beyond, there is no pause, so it\u2019s actually devastating for those households. They are literally paying the price as their bus route changes are still going ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is: why is she prepared to penalise Palmerston North schools and families in my community by refusing to pause the rural bus changes that are currently making life harder for so many people who already have challenges in the current environment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022 data-id=\u00226120d73b9da904eae231f58835611e8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226120d73b9da904eae231f58835611e8d\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education) (21:21)\u003C/span\u003E: It is the case that we have paused the bus route reviews in order to undertake a proper review of the entire school transport system. There always has to be a point at which you pause. I recognise that that\u2019s difficult, but if we had made it earlier, term 4 would have then had the same argument, and if we\u2019d made it term 4, then term 3 last year would have, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt is interesting to note, when I look back at the history of all of this, while I understand that the member is aggrieved, that from the period of 2021-2023, the previous Government also considered a full review of school transport\u2014in fact, getting right to the point of a drafted committee paper for social outcomes, but, unfortunately, that paper was never taken because it was viewed as not a priority by the previous Government; so, unfortunately, we are where we are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis Government is undertaking a full review of the school transport system. In the meantime, we have committed to putting on hold any future changes because it is fair that while we\u2019re undertaking a review, we shouldn\u2019t be making changes that may eventually have to be undone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhile I understand the member\u2019s point, I think the thing to note is that there will always be a point in time where we have to make the pause. We can\u2019t undo years\u2019 and years\u2019 worth of school transport reviews.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat I would also say is that many of the reviews that have been undertaken in the last couple of years have actually been driven by the fact that many councils have put on school bus routes, and that would lead to a double up in services, so we are responding to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also like to say, though, that, in the last two years, those school bus route reviews have ensured that every child that is eligible for school transport\u2014be that a bus or a conveyancing allowance\u2014is receiving it. And those\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226411d32a8872664a8f6322499ab37745\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Very selective. You can do something about this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232d9f9b8aa5ef4272592f88edeb8d37f\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: If you want to listen to the answer, I suggest you do, rather than yelling out at me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bec30ac08b1268cbb1a943cef6fdc46\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Well, actually, you\u2019re not giving an answer that the community actually want.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e17f77dd906dba2f678757cb9285039\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: If you\u2019d like to get up and ask me questions, you\u2019re more than welcome to do so, but I\u2019m answering your question, and I suggest you listen. The policy has not changed\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ef0148339fdd75d9e11beebed921a3b\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: You need to listen to the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206100809116a82c747ed6abb54a7cdd1\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m still going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224af7217c6d8d8205dd226a71ef68bd26\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I suggest, Mr Utikere, you might want to listen and don\u2019t keep referring to the Chair. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f73bfbe2d3c4f0c4d3be04ded943d8b1\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: School transport policy has not changed in 100 years. We have been implementing it. We haven\u2019t made any changes to it, as the previous Government didn\u2019t in their six years either, but we are changing that: we are undertaking a full review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s also important to note that I know that that member was teaching, I think, at a local school in his electorate, and that he is now advocating that children bypass to another school.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022 data-id=\u0022c854ee41ccc2a4be6984c3da88e98260\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c854ee41ccc2a4be6984c3da88e98260\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour) (21:24)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I just wonder if the Minister of Education will answer my question from half an hour ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdb87039aa287521eead60732290a9e7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Specifically?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d211fc9578a15034b81d91f4473c70a\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: The Treaty question that I asked at the beginning of the debate. If you could, please, talk about all the other clauses you are intending to change, and why you didn\u2019t tell us about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022 data-id=\u0022339ce7df0ba8062262d407fe2050f9a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022339ce7df0ba8062262d407fe2050f9a1\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education) (21:24)\u003C/span\u003E: The simple answer is that at the time I made the changes to section 127, a separate process was being undertaken by Minister Paul Goldsmith. At that particular time, the Treaty Reference Advisers Group had provided a report that recommended changing Treaty standards to be consistent, but what they didn\u2019t say was what they would be changing to and that there would be full consultation, and the like. At that point, it was very, very high level. When I made those decisions last year, Cabinet had not made any call\u2014in fact, those calls were only made recently\u2014about changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bc2d72684daea0e46bdf1da3c9b8b78\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: You knew they were going to be made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289782b29b45bca08d22227eb370d6c27\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: The member can cast aspersions, but the fact is, at the time, all that had been talked about was the fact that they needed to be consistent. I still, as I said earlier, take those obligations extraordinarily seriously, as is evident in all the work that I\u2019ve done, which I can honestly say is far more work than the previous Government undertook.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022 data-id=\u0022b27902cef76365a81c275a8a53acd75e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b27902cef76365a81c275a8a53acd75e\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green) (21:25)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a few quick questions for the Minister of Education. Number one, I\u2019m still waiting on a response from the Minister regarding my questions on Student Monitoring, Assessment and Reporting Tools (SMART).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022233cbf15a3ee27ff313f48efd88ff907\u0022\u003EHon Erica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Can you repeat?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f82e2f1d6ae24701a8f22b5daa506474\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the SMART tools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbd8038bba9782970a9ff1bf1a226f09\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The SMART tools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f86c5966a277fd4837fef3bcb35cbc33\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: The SMART tools: I asked about viability, and before going for request for proposal, I asked about the Treasury advice and I also asked about the security certification and accreditation report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to the Teaching Council under the Criminal Records (Clean Slate) Act, I want to check with the Minister: has the Minister considered the possibility that the Teaching Council\u2019s hands were tied with the clean slate Act and there\u2019s nothing they could have done? Would that have been a possibility?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOn the school transport, I want to check with the Minister: has there been a reduction in demand for SESTA\u2014for specialised school transport assistance? Not reduction in funding; reduction in demand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy final question\u2014because the Minister made a little faux pas on referring to a member who is not currently in the Chamber, but I do need to ask early childhood education (ECE) questions. My question is that on average, for-profit ECE centres spend 62 percent of their cost on teachers, whereas community and kindergartens spend 91 percent on their teachers; would there be any difference in the quality of education that teachers are able to provide in those ECE centres? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e5c76b95d0a2acbb03cce7b841e6681\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Now, I\u2019m not sure how many of the questions\u2014the Minister was taking some advice. We\u2019ll just answer the ones that you\u2019ve actually got and then we\u2019ll see where we get to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4110d91f8c61accfbc93ae4530a04d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4110d91f8c61accfbc93ae4530a04d1\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education) (21:27)\u003C/span\u003E: In relation to the Treasury advice, my officials have advised me that the Treasury concerns were allayed throughout the process and it was really important for us to have a tool available because we know that e-asTTle isn\u2019t in a state that it\u2019s going to last much longer than this year. It is very, very old technology. Yes, Treasury\u2014as they often do\u2014raised concerns; we allayed any fears that they had, and here we are with a successful roll-out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EAround the security questions, those are very operational. I don\u2019t have answers to those questions. It\u2019s not something that\u2019s been raised with me. If you want to put them in writing, please do, and I\u2019ll make sure that we answer them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e85d5ee0f57f970c801bb2ee326d373b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e85d5ee0f57f970c801bb2ee326d373b\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour) (21:28)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I\u2019m pleased the Minister of Education mentioned e-asTTle. I\u2019ve just got a question on that. Can she confirm that she received advice that e-asTTle, in fact, could have done most of the things that our Student Monitoring, Assessment and Reporting Tool (SMART) proposes to do, with some small investment in the upgrades over a couple of years? Also, could she confirm that that could have been done from far less than the approximately\u2014I think it\u2019s about $120 million now for SMART that has been invested by taxpayers. Could she also confirm what the total spend to date is on rolling out the SMART tool?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI also have just two more questions. Did the successful contractor for delivering the SMART tool, Janison Solutions, deliver all of the must have functions that were outlined in the request for proposal (RFP)? It\u2019s pretty clear in that RFP that was put out for tender what the requirements that Janison\u2014that whoever was successful, could do it. I want to know: did Janison Solutions deliver all of the must have functions that were specified in that RFP? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also interested to know and what her figures are for school uptake for SMART, and in terms of what is the pick-up rate from schools.  Reports have it as low as 50\u00A0percent, and some of the percentages that have been bandied around don\u2019t seem right. One last question: what happens if a school chooses not to implement the SMART tool?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6f3af3c7e080fb643c3a30561c717a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6f3af3c7e080fb643c3a30561c717a2\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education) (21:30)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll do my best; there were lots of questions there. We\u2019ve always said right from the start that schools should have choice, and, in fact, this year they have the choice of three tools: asTTle, which is still going for this year, the new freely available SMART tool, and also the progressive achievement tests (PATs). We have had 1,190 schools go in and put their students into the new SMART tool. They\u2019ve uploaded data for 250,000 students, out of a total, I think, of about 350,000 students available. There is a huge amount of students enrolled. In fact, we never really set a target, because there are three different tools that could be used, but this is far more than we ever thought would be enrolled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt takes some effort for a principal or a teacher to take the data out of a roll and pop it into SMART and load all the students in and say which level they are at and which assessments they are going to undertake. It takes quite a bit of time, and I just don\u2019t accept some of the things that have been said in the media: that there are some principals who are just doing this\u2014not using the tool\u2014just to spite the Government, or something weird. I hold teachers and principals in much higher regard than that they would do such a thing. The fact is that this is an extraordinarily useful tool that provides really rich data for teachers, and next steps in learning, and also provides parents with the progression information about where their children are at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn relation to asTTle, asTTle is extraordinarily old technology and, as the member may know, the previous Government didn\u2019t really invest in asTTle at all As such it has really been left to pasture. To bring the technology up to standard, it was a huge, huge cost. It was almost not possible to do all of the things that the new SMART tool does, especially around the student-adaptive processing, which means that if a student is undertaking an assessment, it\u2019s not a set test; it changes as to the ability of the student, to properly measure their progress through time. The asTTle assessment tool was just not going to be able to do the things we needed it to do, because it was so old.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENot only that, but the questions in the question bank were extraordinarily old. In fact we weren\u2019t able to use that many of them in the new SMART tool. We did try and pull as many across as we could, but they haven\u2019t been updated for a very long time. There hasn\u2019t been investment. The technology is literally about to fall over, and that would be huge investment into very old technology, which I can imagine the member would accept is probably a very bad idea, which is why we have now invested in a platform that is state-of-the-art technology, which does all of the things we want it to do. It provides teachers with extraordinarily rich data about the individual students in their classroom, the schools really rich data about their school and cohorts across their school, and\u2014as I said earlier\u2014parents the knowledge about how their children are progressing. What we kept hearing was that parents had felt for too long that they found out too late that their children were falling behind, or had fallen behind without knowing that was the case, and we\u2019re trying to correct that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also been looking at all of the information provided by the Education Review Office and, more recently, by the Auditor-General, who have strongly recommended that there is a consistent nationwide assessment of our children all the way through, rather than a myriad different tools or teacher judgments that are used across the system\u2014that we have one set of tools that we use to properly measure assessment across the country, which allows us to then go in and put resource where it\u2019s required, catch children before they fall, and let parents know where their children are at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe did consider what we could do to asTTle. Prior to being the Minister, without any of the available information to me, I thought that we would be able to use asTTle and PAT, but when I was provided with advice, it was that asTTle was not in a state that we could bring it up to the standard that we needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e9ad90cda9a450b975aab481b509894\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, our time with the Minister of Education has ended. I do acknowledge, Dr Xu-Nan, that you did have an early childhood education question outstanding, so I suggest maybe you try another avenue for that one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224261586b983b7311f9ccc19091643c64\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u2014Annual Review Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a7777936b9591912cca910e69096a74e\u0022\u003EWorkplace Relations and Safety\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242afe40c2e00741e8655c86eb083aa33\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety is now available for 30 minutes, which may not conclude tonight, to respond to members\u2019 questions. The first call is to Katie Nimon, chairperson of the Education and Workforce Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c96149a439844ecfa86967f9caf5f50d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5e937b4f158105a8e303f7e65ae7845\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c96149a439844ecfa86967f9caf5f50d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5e937b4f158105a8e303f7e65ae7845\u0022\u003EKATIE NIMON (Chairperson of the Education and Workforce Committee) (21:35)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair, thank you very much again. It\u2019s great to stand up in this particular select committee, acknowledging again my deputy chairperson, Carl Bates, who was the chair while I was on maternity leave during this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOf course, during this particular section of our annual review, we discussed ACC and WorkSafe. It is worth acknowledging that those sit under two separate Ministers. Through our time with ACC, we discussed improving ACC\u2019s performance. We talked about the turnaround plan they had published and about reducing the number of long-term claims. We also discussed the changes to funding for injury prevention, and additionally to that, ACC\u2019s investments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to WorkSafe, we discussed, of course, WorkSafe\u2019s performance in the 2024-25 period, and the strategic shift from enforcement to proactive guidance, which has been a key theme for our select committee. We talked about changes to guidance and the monitoring of, and impact of, the changes that the agency has seen\u2014and then, of course, targets, as with ACC, for reducing injuries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAll of this was discussed across the annual review week, and there are always a range of issues that are very interesting to the select committee. I appreciate the chance to have a debate with the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc5df856d19845fdaba4418087cd3bba\u0022 data-id=\u00223d5ea2beb3f956288edee42f31f0fb71\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc5df856d19845fdaba4418087cd3bba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d5ea2beb3f956288edee42f31f0fb71\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Labour) (21:36)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s been a really torrid time for people in the employment industries in this country, because there has been change that\u2019s been hit at them and thrown at them time and time again. As we\u2019ve just heard from the chair of our select committee, this part of the review looks at WorkSafe and the areas that impact on safety at work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve currently got legislation that\u2019s before the select committee which shows that people are still not happy with the approaches that are being taken by this Government, and that they feel, in many cases, we will see that things are actually worse, or are going to be worse, in the workplace safety area. I would like to start by asking the Minister what she thinks has happened in the past year to address rising workplace injury and fatality rates, because we have one of the worst records in the OECD, and compared to countries like us, like Australia and the UK, we are far worse in those areas. What has she done to address that, and can she point to any measurable improvements in outcomes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFollowing on from that\u2014slightly different, but just giving time for the Minister to take in that first question\u2014how does the Minister respond to widespread concerns from tripartite industry groups, business, and unions that WorkSafe is being asked to do more and is under resourced and unable to effectively carry out its enforcement role. Those are my first two questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222204e041e14c40fcbec76cc14f0da486\u0022 data-id=\u002295088a1349676730541eb37b02cbf320\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222204e041e14c40fcbec76cc14f0da486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295088a1349676730541eb37b02cbf320\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety) (21:39)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much. Look, I think the very first statements here really show the difference between members on the Government side and members on the Opposition side, because what we heard from the chair of the Education and Workforce Committee, Katie Nimon, was, I think, quite a thoughtful contribution talking about what the committee has actually looked at\u2014if we\u2019re actually sticking to facts about what it is the committee has done. In contrast, we see the difference with the Labour Party, who have catastrophised, who have used words like \u201Chitting\u201D and \u201Cthrowing\u201D\u2014very aggressive language that you can only assume comes from that side of the House\u2014as opposed to actually dealing with fact, reason, and logic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe member has asked about the health and safety reforms that the committee will be looking through over this term and in particular through this year, and asked what has actually changed. I hate to admit it, but the member should be aware that the law hasn\u2019t yet come into effect. It\u2019s still a bill, so it\u2019s not possible to say what the effect of that bill will be, when it hasn\u2019t actually become a law yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EHowever, what we have done in the meantime is actually refocus WorkSafe to be far more stronger on proactive guidance. I would challenge the member again, as I did in the select committee a few months back, where the member even agreed with me that during her term under Labour, that Government hadn\u2019t done enough to progress health and safety reform. This is a Government of action. We are actually doing something, and that means focusing on critical risks. You\u2014sorry, not you, Madam Chair. Labour even acknowledges that there are far too many people dying at work. This Government agrees. That\u2019s why we are acting on it. That\u2019s why we are doing more proactive guidance. That\u2019s why we are focusing the system on critical risks\u2014to focus people away from unnecessary paperwork, unnecessary compliance, but focusing strictly on what the actions are that can lead to death and serious injury and illness at work so that we can stop people dying at work, we can stop those serious injuries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat have we done? I\u2019ve signed off on a forestry approved code of practice (ACOP). I\u2019ve also signed off on a ports ACOP. I have asked WorkSafe to fast track two ACOPs, one in construction and one also in the area of agriculture\u2014areas where we know far too many people die. That is where our Government is taking action, which is what the previous Government should have done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022 data-id=\u002243604358321c0725d5e30f2e314bb580\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243604358321c0725d5e30f2e314bb580\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green) (21:42)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I hope you\u2019ll indulge that I\u2019ll be reading questions, as this is not my portfolio. My colleague Teanau Tuiono has been stuck because of the adverse weather events, unfortunately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282d03fb7fe4389d95870cae466d4e7bc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s fair enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aaa28e259a664754b445a8bf3b0c0dfe\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ\u003C/span\u003E: My first question to the Minister is on the road cone tip line: how many road cones were removed from the roads as a result of that, and what was the total spend on that unit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EMy second set of questions revolve around a follow-up to a parliamentary written question that my colleague wrote, written question No. 55296 (2025). In that, the Minister was asked about the breakdown of WorkSafe New Zealand inspectorate staff enrolled as at 1 January 2024 and 1 January 2025. What is the breakdown of WorkSafe New Zealand inspectorate staff enrolled as at 30 January 2025 and as at 1 January 2026\u2014so 30 June 2025 and 1 January 2026 around that WorkSafe inspectorate breakdown?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222204e041e14c40fcbec76cc14f0da486\u0022 data-id=\u0022177ee5759418af3575a34b5e4724b6f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222204e041e14c40fcbec76cc14f0da486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022177ee5759418af3575a34b5e4724b6f9\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety) (21:43)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, I hope to be able to get to road cones in a second, but I\u2019m also aware that Jan Tinetti also had a specific concern that she wanted us to address, which was to do with the resourcing within WorkSafe itself, so I\u2019ll firstly come to this one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere was a concern that WorkSafe was being asked to do more and is under-resourced and unable to carry out its role. I disagree with that sort of thought and provocation, because the funding for WorkSafe has broadly stayed stagnant between $130\u00A0million and $140 million. In the year 2024 to 2025, it was $138 million. The really important point, which I think we need to stress, is that while the funding has stayed the same, there has been a difference in back-office staff versus front-line inspectors. That is, once again, an action that this Government has overseen\u2014that we have more WorkSafe inspectors on the ground out there to be helpful in the community and ensure that we can provide upfront guidance. There are more people coming through training even today. But we have reduced the ratios for front-line to back-office staff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe now have 203 inspectors, with a target of 240 by June this year, which will be the highest number of front-line inspectors ever, I understand, in WorkSafe\u2019s history, whereas the previous Government oversaw quite a large bloat in the back office. We also saw that under Labour\u2019s watch, WorkSafe itself was getting into a pretty difficult financial situation. We have turned around that ship. We have actually seen better financial prudence, but we have seen more investment in those front-line resources helping businesses and workers directly on the ground. WorkSafe is not being asked to do more; it\u2019s being asked to do better with the resources that it has.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc5df856d19845fdaba4418087cd3bba\u0022 data-id=\u0022804236cc3b88da30acb886709fa8e2c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc5df856d19845fdaba4418087cd3bba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022804236cc3b88da30acb886709fa8e2c2\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Labour) (21:45)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Just following on from the question that the Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety has just addressed then, can the Minister then explain why many in the sector feel that work safety is being deprioritised in favour of reducing compliance costs for businesses? The Minister talked about the businesses and the compliance costs going down, and that\u2019s part of the rationale behind the reforms that are going through. Many in the sector have told us at select committee that they feel that this has been at the risk of worker safety being deprioritised. I would really like to know why the Minister thinks that that is a feeling that\u2019s within the sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI\u2019m just wondering if you want me to carry on. I\u2019ve noticed with other\u2014no. All good. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222204e041e14c40fcbec76cc14f0da486\u0022 data-id=\u00221a1e136b49f31187f3bcb20a7b14d19b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222204e041e14c40fcbec76cc14f0da486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a1e136b49f31187f3bcb20a7b14d19b\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety) (21:46)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I\u2019ll respond to the question from Jan Tinetti. Look, I think there\u2019s a big, serious difference between the way that this Government sees the world and Labour sees the world, and that is: spending more money doesn\u2019t necessarily mean you get better outcomes. That is clear when it comes to health and safety, where we have people spending up large to make sure that they\u2019re getting health and safety consultants, they\u2019re getting really expensive files, they\u2019re putting them on their bookcases, so that they can say, \u201CI have complied with the law.\u201D That is not actually necessarily keeping people safer on the ground at work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, the reforms make it really clear that one of the ideas that we\u2019re going behind here is that you can actually have cost-effective health and safety. Prioritising care for people coming home at the end of every day is what everybody wants to see happen, but it doesn\u2019t have to come with very expensive health and safety consultant manuals. That\u2019s a difference I think that we are seeing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, I would argue that that side of the House has been catastrophising and, in some ways, been a bit misleading about what it is that these reforms are actually supposed to do. I\u2019m not surprised there are many members of our community out there a little bit worried about what has happened, because of course I\u2019d be worried too if I believed what I\u2019ve been hearing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EEverybody wants workers to go home safe at the end of every day. I want that. That is why I and this Government are actually taking health and safety seriously, something that the previous Government didn\u2019t take seriously, because we are actually prioritising approved codes of practice, we\u2019re prioritising upfront guidance so WorkSafe is helpful and not a hindrance. We are making sure that any company or worker up and down this country will actually be able to have more upfront guidance so they will know what they need to do and prioritise to keep themselves, their colleagues, and their business and workers safe. I don\u2019t believe you need to have very expensive files sitting on a bookcase in order to do that. It requires all of us to ensure that we have a law that is simple and clear and can be followed by anybody.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc5df856d19845fdaba4418087cd3bba\u0022 data-id=\u0022dca34dc3c6ee2238ec91857786fd7d76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc5df856d19845fdaba4418087cd3bba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dca34dc3c6ee2238ec91857786fd7d76\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Labour) (21:49)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, I\u2019d really like to know the evidence that you\u2019ve got that shows that these reforms are going to make a difference. We\u2019ve asked that question before, and I haven\u2019t been able to get an answer, so I\u2019d like to know the evidence that sits behind that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThen I want to go on to asking about\u2014and I know you\u2019re not the ACC Minister, but there\u2019s a huge tie-up here, and we\u2019ve been hearing a lot about the ongoing concerns that the focus on critical risks takes away from the focus on psychological harm and workplace stress. We\u2019ve heard that, taking away from that, there are concerns that the ACC bill is going to increase quite dramatically, so I would like to know what conversations you\u2019ve had with the Minister for ACC about that and if there\u2019s any changes that you feel need to be made in that critical risk area to ensure that mental health is considered a huge part of the critical risk area, and addressing those concerns about ACC.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222204e041e14c40fcbec76cc14f0da486\u0022 data-id=\u00229d8cd6cd74106d96b8e0e24ca3b38493\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222204e041e14c40fcbec76cc14f0da486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d8cd6cd74106d96b8e0e24ca3b38493\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety) (21:50)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. In response to the question that came earlier from Francisco Hernandez, I believe on behalf of his colleague\u2014I\u2019m very sorry to hear that he was stuck by the weather events; unfortunately, many of our community have been stuck by them, and my thoughts go to everybody who are in these challenging weather event times. In terms of the questions regarding the road cones and how many were removed and at what cost, I\u2019m afraid to say I don\u2019t actually have the figures in front of me, at hand, about the number of road cones that were removed, but in the first week of the hotline being made available, there were 375 valid notifications made to that website. My officials advised that, in one specific example, over 30 road cones were removed from one site. I don\u2019t have the total cost to hand, but I\u2019m very happy to respond in writing to that member\u2019s colleague, if you wish to follow up on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc5df856d19845fdaba4418087cd3bba\u0022 data-id=\u0022acaac380a0f5e5a0a11418e63b153c8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc5df856d19845fdaba4418087cd3bba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022acaac380a0f5e5a0a11418e63b153c8e\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Labour) (21:51)\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to go back to that question that I asked about the evidence. I just thought about something else, and tying in with that, I\u2019d like to know what the evidence is in this particular area that the Minister\u2019s got, but also how that relates to countries, similar or not similar, like the UK and Australia, who have way better statistics than we do. I\u2019m sort of trying to get an understanding of the alignment between what we\u2019re doing here in this country or the changes and those countries that have already had success and how we may differ, or if we may be, as I\u2019ve just said before, similar. I\u2019d like to sort of have an understanding of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222204e041e14c40fcbec76cc14f0da486\u0022 data-id=\u0022689db7605d38b23461da6e86fa80e907\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222204e041e14c40fcbec76cc14f0da486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022689db7605d38b23461da6e86fa80e907\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety) (21:52)\u003C/span\u003E: To the question of what evidence do we as the Government have that there is a need for change, that became really, really clear to me when I went out on the ground to hear from workers and businesses directly. I know this might be different to some of the ways that Governments have done evidence in the past, but I like to actually get out across New Zealand and hear from people. We had over 1,000 people show up and give us their stories about health and safety and how they interact with the current law and what they were hoping to see from change, in my 2024 roadshow. That did include members of unions who did show up to voice their perspectives as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI thank everybody who came out to actually take the time\u2014and in many cases, the first time ever to meet a Minister or someone in Government and actually feel like they were being listened to out in the community. There was overwhelming support for the need for change, and that\u2019s because I heard, quite consistently, that people did not feel supported. They didn\u2019t know what it was that they were supposed to do to comply with the law because it was too confusing. It was too conflicting. I am of the belief that you shouldn\u2019t need to have hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollar to be able to know what you need to do to comply with law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOur economy runs off the back of people getting up every day and providing jobs for each other. A lot of those people are small-business owners who are quite often doing payroll; they are also the human resources function and they are doing health and safety. There are a lot of really stressed New Zealanders who get up every day to provide jobs for each other and they want to provide safe work environments for their staff, but they are confused. I don\u2019t believe that our laws should be confusing. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve asked WorkSafe to pivot, to provide far more in-writing guidance\u2014upfront, inspector guidance\u2014on the ground, for people who don\u2019t have all of that money sloshing around because they are stressed and they\u2019re trying to get by every week and provide incomes for their employees. That\u2019s really important for me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat I heard on the ground was that people were too confused with the current law and they wanted it to be simplified. I did not hear that people wanted people to be less safe. That is not what we are aiming to do, even though that might be what you hear from the Labour Party. We are focused on making sure our law is easy to be complied with, to the smallest, small business in this country, to those Kiwis who I thank who get up every day to provide jobs for other people. Our laws should be there to help them do the right thing by their employees, not confuse them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0a87d176cf63bef72db49fded991d43\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to report progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EProgress to be reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216b4027e3ebb8511136b877a9ebd74a4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Appropriation (2024/25 Confirmation and Validation) Bill and reports progress. I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the report be adopted\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c970325a0f3ed86250c2930c0578dec7\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2026042116d6bcd2a8fa97f400000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.56 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"