"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224bc22b44f3334f9e165a5697e88b3154\u0022\u003EWednesday, 22 April 2026\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EThe Speaker\u003C/span\u003E took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b7a49fa9f466af88a87ef34db9bd13f3\u0022\u003EStart of Sitting Day\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225dc1c956dcd56d95a9f54756704cba4f\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022da70f0be07117cd1d14f953ccbac59fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da70f0be07117cd1d14f953ccbac59fe\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Assistant Speaker) (14:00)\u003C/span\u003E: \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EE te Atua kaha rawa, ka tuku whakamoemiti atu m\u0101tou, m\u014D ng\u0101 karakia kua waihotia mai ki runga i a m\u0101tou. Ka waiho i \u014D m\u0101tou p\u0101nga whaiaro katoa ki te taha. Ka mihi m\u0101tou ki te K\u012Bngi, me te inoi atu m\u014D te \u0101rahitanga i roto i \u014D m\u0101tou whakaaroarohanga, kia m\u014Dhio ai, kia whakaiti ai t\u0101 m\u0101tou whakahaere i ng\u0101 take o te Whare nei, m\u014D te oranga, te maung\u0101rongo, me te aroha o Aotearoa. \u0100mene.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003E[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EAlmighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King and pray for guidance in our deliberations that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom and humility, for the welfare, peace, and compassion of New Zealand. Amen.\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022be47e58bbddbc5ec6d96c37fa45ac4d8\u0022\u003EPresentation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002299364bb34ec4bb27b4d924e4f26736ec\u0022\u003EPetitions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7da71cf32b7c9f77ddca50ad4749c2b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7da71cf32b7c9f77ddca50ad4749c2b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER (14:01)\u003C/span\u003E: A petition has been delivered to the Clerk for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cafd9bbcc2b58537d74eab499a6675b2\u0022\u003ECLERK (14:01): \u003C/span\u003EThe petition of Endo Warriors Aotearoa requesting that the House urge the Government to commission an independent review and rewrite of the Ministry of Health\u2019s endometriosis guidelines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e204773e2240d090914a35c16754516\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That petition stands referred to the Petitions Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002218bc700501a4326ff7110094c83d5c29\u0022\u003EPapers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022 data-id=\u002285ef2a0d62d90822d5cf2634100cefaf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285ef2a0d62d90822d5cf2634100cefaf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER (14:01)\u003C/span\u003E: A paper has been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e0668b9fd3257f6cd1faf6027268e55\u0022\u003ECLERK (14:01): \u003C/span\u003E2025-2030 statement of intent for NZ Transport Agency Waka Kotahi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207306d2894d63ded0ecb5470dd275cec\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That paper is published under the authority of the House. No select committee reports have been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c48f58ceb2e6f723cd78714f2f520156\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220e49f4f5d9657bb22331869fc5447a80\u0022\u003ECrown Land Legislation Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c6ca7c679324cb15fcc90fa74589633\u0022\u003EIntroduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2525b445cfc1f0585b1bd808ddbbf02\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2525b445cfc1f0585b1bd808ddbbf02\u0022\u003ESPEAKER (14:01)\u003C/span\u003E: The Clerk has been informed of the introduction of a bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df2d05b05236d056b712ccada9f3d662\u0022\u003ECLERK (14:01): \u003C/span\u003ECrown Land Legislation Amendment Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd71286a77e68cb2bcdba1bb88b0028c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That bill is set down for first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b4fe550c791e0fbdd73c32046a0f3d3b\u0022\u003EOral Questions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fb19407c8cb99c79654edbbeaa918e8f\u0022\u003EPrime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002229cdb252c034c827ed74be08638d8749\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022 data-id=\u002248b4c06f9502c12fe94a668903a06679\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248b4c06f9502c12fe94a668903a06679\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green) (14:01)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EPrime Minister\u003C/span\u003E: \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EE tautoko ana ia i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero me ng\u0101 mahi katoa a t\u014Dna K\u0101wanatanga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003E[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EDoes he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022 data-id=\u00222436d010a44854385ee4c9b742bf9ab8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222436d010a44854385ee4c9b742bf9ab8\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister) (14:01)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a30a76f7869c0cb58f76fb81b968a4f\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister understand that reducing our dependence on fossil fuels reduces our exposure to imported inflation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022952810d95e1ab6ffeeb33dce6ccff17e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: What the Prime Minister understands is that, actually, a failed policy that ended oil and gas exploration puts this country at huge risk, drives up energy prices, and actually puts huge pain and suffering on low and middle income working people. That\u2019s why we don\u2019t support the Labour - Greens energy policy. We have a different plan now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271d8acf3a6f0476999f9d03b4ae70e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d730f7ce218e0619bacd184278ec5d13\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Carnage! Carnage!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad6c9215d6eff1c08b3692868dcf4e6c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just to be very clear, the Prime Minister doesn\u2019t need the assistance he\u2019s currently getting from some of the coalition members when he\u2019s answering questions. Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u2014[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E] No, just Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224a26570200882502f02657939a0a403\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Is our country more or less exposed to imported inflation because of his decisions to cut former Government investment in decarbonising and electrifying industry and transport?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290938155b2b4055b42d0bd6c8f927139\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, our country is much safer and more secure in an energy security sense with this Government in charge. It is an \u201Cand, and, and\u201D. We have a huge boom in renewables. We\u2019re opening up. We\u2019ve got a strategic coal reserve sitting beside Huntly. We want to make sure that we\u2019ve got as much optionality as possible so we can lower the dry-year risk, keep power bills cheaper for people. That\u2019s what it\u2019s about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e7ad0a978806b586997ca0f008b7671\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Is our country more or less exposed to imported inflation because of his decision to spend at least $1 billion of taxpayer money on a liquefied natural gas (LNG) import facility?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c4b5b159ff1340b083876047fbec383\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, our country is infinitely better off by actually avoiding the policies of the previous administration that saw us import huge amounts of Indonesian coal and actually make the rather unique global transition from domestic gas to international coal\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022603037d47363aa457ef2bf99cf9f086b\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Tell the truth!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8f2db6b9e0388a64b82681fe77a8993\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014twice as bad from an emissions point of view. We\u2019ve got a renewables boom like we\u2019ve never seen before; we\u2019ve got emissions the lowest it\u2019s been since 2010; and we\u2019ve got an \u201Cand, and, and\u201D policy where we are going to continue to invest and have fossil fuel in this country in order to lower the dry-year risk so we lower the power bills and we keep people in jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022132b108a0d209c4738760aca12b3dcfb\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Besides the tedious sanctimony, that member saying, \u201CTell the truth.\u201D is an implication that he\u2019s not and, therefore, completely unparliamentary, and she should be asked to withdraw and apologise for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8db7944fb18a82870d923f5f3589c36\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, sorry. You can\u2019t take objection to something that might mean something else. There are some very specific requirements around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6776ac3a9c8066eebe9ba0b58a559fd\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: What else could it mean?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8d4df4291aa367f7661708114b2c0ea\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it could be that it is an exhortation, and I think that would be a perfectly reasonable example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c99de275bd40501576753ec2127a2a91\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I felt quite hurt by it. I was quite wounded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cae2ecf5137276464e8a91256269c8cf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if you\u2019re wounded, you take your own offence. Don\u2019t leave it to your\u2014I know that the theory is that if you\u2019ve got a whistle and a dog then you don\u2019t need to bark yourself, but that\u2019s not the case here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222125562b0976c89f1e6feed38d17969f\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Would the country be more or less exposed to imported inflation if the Government took the $1 billion of taxpayer money intended to be spent on an LNG import facility and instead invested that in renewable energy generation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240a9f6762e894d6ae1fbb60847397149\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as I\u2019ve said to the member, we have an energy policy which is about doubling the amount of renewable energy in this country, and we have a renewables boom under way, thanks in part to things like fast track\u2014and that member never supported that. We have reversed the ridiculous oil and gas ban; that member supported that. That ended up driving up $800 megawatt per hour costs, and then people in low and middle income working jobs in mills in industrial, provincial parts of New Zealand lost their jobs. The energy policy of the Labour-Greens lost people their jobs. We\u2019re not doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eaab7655e69a65c1c21fd2c4b12caf67\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Is the plan\u2014[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221436cb675b4ea732253fb91429f8e462\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait, Mr Seymour. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a91c0fb05c7796c63643037300fef7d3\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Government have any plan to use \u201Ctaxpayer money\u201D such as that raised from income tax and GST for the proposed LNG terminal or is it to be funded by a levy on the power companies that use it\u2014which of those would be \u201Ctelling the truth\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212885e5b82858490592df09e1d180806\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first part of the question, no. I also want to reassure the House: we\u2019re not going to go borrow another $44 billion or increase taxes by $90 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6de1aa3160110c95f328c57fade06b1\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary. [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e9a92039b5cc167eae88d2898acbc87\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick, and no one else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228790da208a4a97cf731dcdb1e42ab7d5\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Tell the truth\u2014tell the truth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022544b8aba988fe1263daa0aebe99013e6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just\u2014who\u2019s making that comment after I asked them all to be quiet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cafe81ff58d442274d374b1e34c60863\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: A timing issue, sir.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf3799c984e88839418b00d584bd2563\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s never been your strong suit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223b00579391b7718405abed98351b57c\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: If hope is not a plan, what exactly is his plan to reduce our exposure to imported inflation through reducing our dependence on fossil fuels?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b52508349dbec7b3eef6554fd834a6d\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, our plan is to actually have good fiscal and financial management, which is what you\u2019re seeing from this Government. We haven\u2019t cranked up spending by 84 percent, driven inflation to 32-year highs, had 13 increases in interest rates, put the economy into recession where people have lost their jobs\u2014we\u2019re doing the reverse of that. We are disciplined spenders. We\u2019ve lowered inflation, we\u2019ve brought interest rates down nine times, we have an economy that\u2019s growing, and we\u2019ve created 15,000 new jobs in the last quarter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220cee3ee1aa30cae0a7cae2faaed0afd1\u0022\u003EFinance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022484122cbf341e649bea860abdb868805\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227d19573a8ba4d8283b17374978c8ea2\u0022 data-id=\u00220f807578c2309904c3de00e2a30e70be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227d19573a8ba4d8283b17374978c8ea2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f807578c2309904c3de00e2a30e70be\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland) (14:07)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister of Finance\u003C/span\u003E: What recent reports has she seen on the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0b0cf584382bf15ae90c811bf03c042\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0b0cf584382bf15ae90c811bf03c042\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (14:07)\u003C/span\u003E: Earlier this month, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) released its latest World Economic Outlook, which contains forecasts for the global economy, including New Zealand, and gives broad policy advice. The latest report was produced as conflict in the Middle East was unfolding. The IMF acknowledges the difficulty of forecasting in this environment. Its main forecast assumes that the conflict will have limited duration, intensity, and scope, with disruptions fading by mid-2026, consistent with what markets were indicating when the forecasts were prepared. The IMF also presents an adverse scenario and another more severe scenario.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227d19573a8ba4d8283b17374978c8ea2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bf5f774d42a9e3421e2132fecdbd13f\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: What does the main scenario say about the outlook for the world and for New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1e76fe3b360cc84c760a8f412ca8620\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: At the beginning of this year, before conflict began in the Middle East, the IMF was forecasting global growth of 3.3 percent in 2026; it\u2019s now forecasting that growth to fall to 3.1 percent. In 2027, the IMF is forecasting global growth of 3.2 percent, unchanged from before the conflict. For New Zealand, the IMF is forecasting growth of 2.1 percent in 2026 and 2.4 percent in 2027. This is a little lower than the Reserve Bank was forecasting in its Monetary Policy Statement in February, but it is higher growth than the IMF is forecasting for the world\u2019s advanced economies as a whole.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227d19573a8ba4d8283b17374978c8ea2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f57a711ac7afa5a1a5366bc502b5144\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: What do the IMF\u2019s alternative scenarios indicate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250fdd12ee5269eac9fa00e9e994b36f1\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the IMF\u2019s scenarios were constructed on a top-down basis, so there are no alternative forecasts available specifically for New Zealand, but they have been done for the world as a whole. In the IMF\u2019s adverse scenario, oil prices are assumed to increase by 80 percent and not return to pre-conflict levels until 2028. In this case, the IMF forecasts global growth to slow to 2.5 percent in 2026. In the severe scenario, there is more damage to energy infrastructure in the conflict region, and oil prices increase by 100 percent in 2026 and 2027. Under this scenario, the IMF cuts its global growth forecast to just 2 percent in 2026. While the impacts of the conflict are still very uncertain, I would observe that oil prices are currently around 35 percent higher than they were before the conflict began\u2014so, well south of some of the IMF\u2019s more dire predictions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227d19573a8ba4d8283b17374978c8ea2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dd74201f4d1ec205ffc2f98199b6924\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: What is the IMF\u2019s advice about fiscal support at this time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218e49e20461b43c61f98ac1d8c1c71f9\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The IMF\u2019s advice to countries is: \u201CWhere fiscal support is deemed to be necessary to protect the most vulnerable \u2026 it should be targeted, timely, temporary and funded within current budget envelopes by reprioritising spending\u201D. Just to clarify, that is not a quote from me; that is a quote from the International Monetary Fund. That is exactly what this Government is doing, of course. Furthermore, the IMF warned Governments not to take their eye off the ball at this time and to continue to pursue credible medium-term fiscal consolidation to rebuild fiscal buffers\u2014fiscal buffers that will be more important in the future to countries\u2019 resilience, arguably, than ever. Again, that is exactly what this Government is doing, as members will see in the Budget. Others may talk big about splashing the cash. We are taking a responsible approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228fb6f06836730c452f36c39a7438aa9a\u0022\u003EPrime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f0abe0e7d31a9b8b1a5af919bd0e4d52\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022 data-id=\u00227b4f6c05bc79b0f9980f17297bb4ea8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b4f6c05bc79b0f9980f17297bb4ea8e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition) (14:11)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EPrime Minister\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022 data-id=\u0022c22a583e68c7dc59d40dde3e35cc82c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c22a583e68c7dc59d40dde3e35cc82c4\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister) (14:11)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af755de1cbf4e71b7041413dc302e5e7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Government be adopting any of the International Energy Agency\u2019s recommended fuel conservation initiatives in response to the current international oil shock; if so, which ones?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223872074e2d088f48466680ba0b145ee5\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: As the member knows, we have a four-phases approach to how to manage this crisis. It\u2019s triggered by a conversation of whether we should move between phases on six different assessment criteria. At this stage, New Zealand has sufficient supply of fuel. We see no disruption to that fuel supply, and as a consequence, it\u2019s business as usual.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022531b11d9aa61a3f46790ffab0e6fe020\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Under the National Fuel Plan, what is the Government\u2019s definition of \u201Ccritical customers\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e2fac7302ab9909bee02f1907ca471b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, we are working that through with industry. One of the lessons out of COVID is, actually, we don\u2019t believe in a parent-child relationship where Government happens to industry; we actually work with industry. We have ongoing work as we put more definition around phases 3 and 4, should we ever need it, but the focus of this Government is to make sure that we never get to phases 3 and 4. It\u2019s about making sure that we ensure we have fuel supply at all times, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280ed757d96c84a954889304e3d23919a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Government prioritise fuel supplies to critical customers, as indicated under level 2?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcc89879e8ed00d98128d61bdb0eaab2\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, that\u2019s laid out in our phases. The member is well aware to look at the broad sketching that we have. But we have ongoing work with industry, with our officials. We meet regularly. We\u2019re deeply, deeply engaged. But it requires there to be a disruption to our fuel supply. Again, we are in phase 1 because we do not have a foreseeable disruption to our fuel supply; our fuel importers are confident, they have orders out to May into June; and we\u2019re in a good position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff2aef1fb55ca119c801c6d9bbf06fd2\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm that at phase 2, it is the Government\u2019s expectation that fuel importers and distributors ensure that they maintain supply to critical customers, but that the Government would stand ready to regulate to ensure that fuel distributors were doing that, should there be disruptions to regional supply?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb5c42eafa9abd98690ca7b8c9c6d2b2\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: That is correct, but this is a Government that has a different approach from what has been the management of the previous Government, which was all about\u2014the approach to pandemics was about \u201CWe\u2019ll tell you what to do.\u201D We believe we\u2019ll work with Government on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc0342be0498aa56279ec363be15da0f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Will petrol stations be expected to check whether their customers are critical customers in order to ensure that they are given supplies; if not, how are they going to make sure that critical customers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022527e227718adecdbc728ea5b8dd97b69\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I appreciate the member has had experience running a crisis in the past, but we have taken the mistakes of his management and we are doing it differently. The reason, very simply, is that we are a Government that will work with industry\u2014[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c64775dbe1691ffaa88fac716ebb31b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re going to hear the answer in silence. It\u2019s a pretty important question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273e1b8b9fa156bb8e586c5487421f7ba\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We will work with industry rather than do things to industry, which was the mistake of the last management of the last crisis that Government dealt with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e3c31c95a7f64ef437ad6205cd9e4a0\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e94e79250ae121e29f52d7d87d5d047b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A point of order. A point of order is heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0aa5c82f87d8d964f0ba386d12e3fa3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: It might surprise the Prime Minister I wasn\u2019t asking him about the pandemic. I was asking him about how critical customers are going to be identified by fuel companies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022840b15db4d925c6384983737b4eb30b1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, an important question, and you can ask it again without penalty, and we\u2019ll hear the answer in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022684a710d4df11af7b01ac7d68d441786\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Will petrol stations be expected to check whether someone is a critical customer in order to identify whether or not they have a critical need to access fuel, should we reach that point?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b011aafa37c2a8fbb112e2e3ea515fd\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No, and as I said to the member, we are working closely with industry so that, should we ever get to phases 3 and 4\u2014which we hope never to do\u2014we will work together on how we allocate and prioritise the rationing of fuel in that situation. But we have got ongoing work with industry. We\u2019ll continue to build that, and when we\u2019re ready to share it, we\u2019ll share it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a4c2a81a8c07ae0a01b4021feae7ea3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: How is he saying that fuel companies will be expected to ensure that critical customers are prioritised if the fuel companies aren\u2019t expected to know who the critical customers are and aren\u2019t expected to check?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022113e1f23174d1fb7439a18e6251b5c29\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I really appreciate the member\u2019s anxiety in the question he\u2019s raising. I\u2019ve noticed his scaremongering about the supplies of fuel that are within New Zealand. I want to reassure him that we are in phase 1 of our national fuel response plan. What that means is that the market is operating effectively and fuel is available. If we move from phase 1 to phase 2, that decision will be made because we see that there could be some risk of fuel supply in place. Should we ever need to get to phase 3, and then phase 4, obviously there is rationing, but we are working that up with industry. We\u2019ll have more to say about it, and we\u2019ll share that when we have it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224720e4f8300b803df6d3cff0bf4d5e10\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Will petrol stations be prohibited from supplying customers who are not deemed to be critical customers at any point; if so, how will they know who the critical customers are?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc091a326b26b01b067fbf86cfef13ae\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I just want to reassure the member: we\u2019re in phase 1. We\u2019ve got plenty of fuel. Don\u2019t worry about it, son. It\u2019s all good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d4b41c30a3af26e099072f2c1f6e06e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022490c8266ea8b6db41e34bbd48bbb2b68\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: The only person who should be worried is you, mate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e4b8fb7d9085d38807e1244b3d44a2e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me, what\u2019s happening here?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294bd4663e5c3b1bd1b5992333116396d\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if he\u2019s going to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cd3c6594f1d4c24181a88d6de2ebb3b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, you\u2019re going to be quiet while your leader is taking a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022360fcc3d2802aa5290edbf9fad9dda7a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, a lot of New Zealanders are concerned that they may experience a shortage of fuel in the near future. They are asking\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226547b13b2196dcdfca0aa43e073df07a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No, you\u2019re scaremongering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022858b43055c3e37e9333a2a3adbda1ed1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, just a minute. No one speaks while a point of order is taken, but it would be good if the member could come to the point of order without the explanation ahead of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abe00091da736cac6c87bb2714b2ef2c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: The point is that the Prime Minister has given us a detailed explanation of what he thinks the previous Government did wrong during the pandemic without actually answering any of the questions about what people are going to face in New Zealand in the near future should we end up with a fuel shortage. I\u2019ve asked him who the critical customers are\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255ba328094255be5d35df742aab1fd7e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0ae36336139b18948abed1d3ff31515\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: He hasn\u2019t answered that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d80e8a20c3081d70e12d239b731ac5b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, he has.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e273a7222d0721ea5627e151b6421a7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve asked him whether the petrol companies are going to be expected to prioritise them and how, and he hasn\u2019t answered that. These are not unreasonable questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d11a5357960fefa2eb8fe27c9b6e2877\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s enough. In each of those, he\u2019s been given a question where the answer has been that the process, as far as I heard it, is still being worked through. But if the member wants to ask one more question without penalty, he may do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022240874ff4337957b06de6a4a0a7852de\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022beaf9a55ca13a76336f929360301579a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, supplementary here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5d9435aa2d781fb39512226d7eb6e3b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Two months after the fuel crisis started, why can\u2019t he tell New Zealanders who critical customers are, how they will access fuel, what the role of the fuel companies is going to be, and when we might get to that point\u2014what the criteria are for if we do get to that point?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8e44adb19432cdc0557494ace1bcf09\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, again, I\u2019ve said to the member that we are doing it differently than he may have done the management of a previous crisis. We have six criteria, which actually trigger a conversation\u2014[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f46a970745bf0c9d72696641224df17a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, we\u2019re going to hear it in silence. It\u2019s been clearly outlined by the Rt Hon Chris Hipkins. It\u2019s a very important question, so we\u2019ll listen to the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d75f0af2300c7aacc50e45275eb4384\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, we\u2019re doing it differently. We have six trigger criteria that actually bring officials, industry, and Ministers together to make an assessment about where we should be with respect to phases. Job number one is to continue to secure fuel supply. We\u2019re doing that job. I want to reassure the member we are in phase\u00A01. We are delivering fuel data on Mondays and Wednesdays. We\u2019re being very transparent with the New Zealand people. They are reassured that we have plenty of stock. There is no disruption to any fuel supply. As I said to the member, our fuel importers\u2014we\u2019ve worked with them from day one. We are actually working in partnership with industry, rather than the Government sitting there in an ivory tower telling industry what to do. The solutions will be delivered with industry together. As we work our way through the phases, we continue to put definition to them, in the event we should need them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022612f5ab833b885601383da3774bed9f2\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister think it is responsible for political leaders to scaremonger\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e37b00eca9426f3401a65c3c7abeed1f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no\u2014stop there. That\u2019s not a question. We\u2019ll go to question No. 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228c99ba83a153beeff99685739ea4fbc2\u0022\u003ETrade and Investment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002259151e68071f0dd84604ecf241c64f92\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022694c3cef004e40d78a26712dce80070d\u0022 data-id=\u00225f1930a63f710af3019cb1599c88ab73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022694c3cef004e40d78a26712dce80070d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f1930a63f710af3019cb1599c88ab73\u0022\u003ESUZE REDMAYNE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei) (14:19)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister for Trade and Investment\u003C/span\u003E: What recent announcements has he made regarding the free trade agreement with India?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228d19240ed9ca4f5597e2bb804e0e32fb\u0022 data-id=\u0022a29c2de6ac5827617eab236912b475f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228d19240ed9ca4f5597e2bb804e0e32fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a29c2de6ac5827617eab236912b475f5\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister for Trade and Investment) (14:19)\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand and India have reached agreement to sign a landmark free-trade agreement in New Delhi on Monday, 27 April of this year. It is an agreement that\u2019s worth celebrating. New Zealanders will have unprecedented access to 1.4 billion people in an economy set to become the world\u2019s third largest. It will ensure our exporters remain competitive with Australia, the UK, the European Union (EU), and European Free Trade Association countries who already have or will benefit from lower tariffs\u201495\u00A0percent of our exports will see tariff elimination or reduction, amongst the highest of any India free-trade agreement (FTA), with almost 57 percent being duty free from day one, increasing to 82 percent when fully implemented. The benefits of the New Zealand - India Free Trade Agreement will be available to all Kiwis for many generations to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022694c3cef004e40d78a26712dce80070d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf601307a33ffdd8caeb7a5889b189d8\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: What benefits will this agreement deliver for New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228d19240ed9ca4f5597e2bb804e0e32fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc764667fda46c7935f9bff254e585d5\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: The FTA will create jobs for Kiwis and give us more options in a challenging international trading and geopolitical environment. New Zealand has secured tariff-free access for lamb, wool, coal, leather, forestry, most industrial products, infant formula, and seafood; and reductions of duty rates for our wine, as an example, from 150 percent to as low as 25 percent. For the first time in any India FTA, New Zealand has secured preferential access for apples, m\u0101nuka honey, and a tariff-free quota for kiwifruit, almost four times what we currently sell them. Trade grows the economy, and it creates jobs. The New Zealand - India free trade agreement is about futureproofing our exporters and allowing Kiwi companies to continue to punch above their weight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022694c3cef004e40d78a26712dce80070d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d88fbbd0289741b233a8f827595c36b\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: What support has there been for the India free-trade agreement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228d19240ed9ca4f5597e2bb804e0e32fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fb58d21bd5b91f7bb15d43b89fd4b3c\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, last week, 28 companies and organisations published an open letter calling for support of the agreement. In their letter, they said, and I quote: \u201CAn FTA with India is not luxury; it\u2019s a strategic necessity for our economy security.\u201D Support for that letter has grown to 97 businesses and organisations. The chambers of commerce across New Zealand have called on parties to support the agreement. For instance, Business Canterbury said, \u201COpportunities like this are rare. We urge all parties across Parliament to get in behind backing our business community and our economy, through ratification of the FTA.\u201D ExportNZ said, \u201CThis Agreement was hard fought and represents New Zealand\u2019s best opportunity to secure meaningful access to one of the world\u2019s most important growth markets. It also keeps the door open for further engagement \u2026 The time to act is now.\u201D Finally, the New Zealand Indian community has described the agreement as once in a lifetime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf9e1eb91ef740868a26db659355f7e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfef526dcee89326e0e54a59cb45ef8f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Will the India - NZ FTA allow Indian temporary employment entry visa holders to bring their family members with them to New Zealand, as is the case with temporary entry visa holders from other FTA partners, such as China, Thailand, and the Philippines?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228d19240ed9ca4f5597e2bb804e0e32fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253b020d5a02c7355eb439c4daab5703f\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: One of the things that we agreed with India is that, every year, 1,670 high-skilled workers that New Zealand needs, because we have a shortage in our economy, can come to New Zealand under a special visa that would be created. The visa will be for three years. At the end of that time, they would need to return home. In as far as that special visa is concerned, it is different to other trade agreements that the Minister has spoken about. It does not give them a right automatically to bring family members here, because that was not part of the negotiation. However, should they be able to in other parts of New Zealand policy around migration, they with every other person in the world are able to make an application for a visa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022694c3cef004e40d78a26712dce80070d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022864dcbabd31173b6ec42c73bc6bc14ae\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: Following signing of the agreement, what are the next steps?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228d19240ed9ca4f5597e2bb804e0e32fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5a36ce5db0644dbbbae5821926b8fbc\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, upon signing the FTA, we will go through the normal Parliamentary process, enabling all parties and the public to consider the agreement in full. The agreement and a national interest analysis will be tabled in Parliament to be referred to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee for public hearings, and then they will report back to the House. The EU negotiated better access for their wine and services sectors in their recently concluded FTA. A most-favoured nations clause in our agreement, negotiated by our negotiators, means that if these additional benefits must be extended to New Zealand, should our FTA enter into force before the European Union\u2019s, this will be worth tens of millions of dollars in extra exports to New Zealand businesses, and so we\u2019re going to work hard to make sure this can happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a30b7d60a03452cb9b736efc6896cdb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0cf5802dad1947d08fcfaff76bbf5c5\u0022\u003EDr Parmjeet Parmar\u003C/span\u003E: Will this FTA reduce the cost of butter chicken for those who love it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205e2d619140fdddddd60235a3eec6978\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll tell you what: he\u2019s responsible for a lot of things, but I wouldn\u2019t want to eat his butter chicken, so we\u2019ll go to a supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289f7cb6eb27382f338f672d894e2d2de\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. To ask if a trade agreement will have an effect on the price of things that people can buy is a perfectly legitimate question that actually does deserve an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022978b5236177484188d0c37944811429b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, look, it does, but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223647b73820508635c9f2df37b50251f7\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: So let him answer it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4ac6f53539d40b76196f0726723014b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, it might deserve an answer, but certainly not in the context of a trade agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf9e1eb91ef740868a26db659355f7e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022751d2e4bfaf42f32b9824c3561dc45c5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: So is the Minister\u2019s position that an Indian chef coming here under the Indian FTA will have fewer rights than a Chinese chef coming in under the China - New Zealand FTA; in other words, that an Indian chef is worth less to the National Party than a Chinese chef?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228d19240ed9ca4f5597e2bb804e0e32fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb5c6e5d89f6508f821a426874694e0e\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I welcome the member\u2019s concern that all migrants should have the same rights and opportunities within New Zealand, but, no, I\u2019m not saying that. I\u2019m saying that every time you negotiate a trade agreement, you actually negotiate it with a partner. As far as the questions you ask, that was not part of the negotiation, nor is it part of the trade agreement. No commitments were made in that area. However, all Governments of New Zealand decide that they want to set migration policy and the rules that sit around that. This Government, as with the previous one and future Governments, has that ability, because that has not been part of the trade agreement negotiated with India.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf9e1eb91ef740868a26db659355f7e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022601d87b90530a952fd143014a6e9bbfd\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: If that\u2019s the case, has the Minister or the Prime Minister directly and explicitly informed their Indian counterparts that they intend to implement the India temporary employment entry (TEE) visa scheme in a way that treats Indians worse than Chinese, Thais, and the Vietnamese; and, if so, what was the reaction from Prime Minister Modi and trade Minister Goyal to the admission of this planned discrimination against Indian citizens?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228d19240ed9ca4f5597e2bb804e0e32fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4408362618908b9e5a02fcb66410cd0\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: I reject not only the characterisation of that question but its intent and its meaning. Indeed, I have had many conversations with my counterpart in India, as frequently and most recently as a few weeks ago in Africa at the World Trade Organization trade negotiation. He, and I, and almost every other New Zealander I have spoken to, thinks this is a historic occasion. It\u2019s a high-quality agreement and it deserves to be celebrated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf9e1eb91ef740868a26db659355f7e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223414873ea101ad9626da4845c0bb7f15\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: If that answer is in the affirmative, and given the data shows that, on average, a visa holder will bring their partner and two children with them, doesn\u2019t the 5,000 TEE visa and the FTA mean that up to 20,000 more Indians are able to come to New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228d19240ed9ca4f5597e2bb804e0e32fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022034ebb8f0b6eca070c57b46aabc7c349\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it wasn\u2019t in the affirmative\u2014that\u2019s not what my answer was\u2014but, very clearly, in the case of these 1,670 high-skilled Indian workers that the New Zealand economy needs, decided upon by a green list set by Government because there are skills shortages, they will be able to apply for a visa. They\u2019re also able to apply for the existing shortage visa with the rights and obligations that come with that. I caution suggestions of large numbers of people from anywhere in the world that would come to New Zealand. The reason for that is it does a disservice to the migrant community, many of whom work very hard and help us grow our economy. There won\u2019t be the number of people coming as a result of the agreement that has been suggested by many in the media.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf9e1eb91ef740868a26db659355f7e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022500c991bfbcc94f2bc831ba57ae06001\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the FTA, for the first time in any New Zealand FTA, state that the number of international students coming from India to New Zealand will be uncapped? And does the Minister agree with Indian Government officials who have described this as unprecedented and \u201Ca huge win for Indian students\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228d19240ed9ca4f5597e2bb804e0e32fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb72d5a7b3649d869f5c9b117461270c\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think it is a huge win for Indian students to have the opportunity to come to New Zealand, one of the most beautiful countries in the world, to get an education and then to return home, but it is important to note that there are no caps that have ever been put on the places of any students from any country in the world coming to New Zealand. What successive Governments have done, on both sides of the House, is use criteria that we set to have an effect upon the number of students that may come from somewhere. For instance, in the last period of Government, changes were made that reduced students from many parts of the world coming to New Zealand, including when they came from India. This Government has upheld those and looked for other areas to tighten that criteria so that the students that come, particularly at higher levels of education, can benefit and that it is a fair match with New Zealand, and so that, actually, we can continue to make sure that the balance is right. The India free-trade agreement allows current and future Governments to continue to make decisions in the best interests of New Zealand around what requirements are needed for students to get a visa to come to New Zealand, and that is an extremely important part of a negotiation. It is something that both the Indian Government and New Zealand Government are more than aware of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf9e1eb91ef740868a26db659355f7e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a312c753b5eefe503af376d496cdfec1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the India FTA include an investment clause with a completely unrealistic and unachievable $34 billion target over 15 years, when no previous New Zealand FTA has ever done so?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228d19240ed9ca4f5597e2bb804e0e32fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dd31cc58281a0580e790047bd06066e\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, whenever a trade agreement is entered into, trade increases in both directions as does opportunity for investment. I want to be very clear and say this very carefully: the New Zealand Government, through the India free-trade agreement, has not taken on a commitment to invest an amount of money in India. In fact, a month or two ago, the Indian High Commissioner to New Zealand stated this publicly and said the figure that has been mentioned is aspirational. What the Government has done is taken on a commitment to promote investment in India, and already we see New Zealand businesses that are interested to go to India to invest. In return, the Indian Government\u2014not only around all of the access we have for the areas of tariff-free trade that I mentioned\u2014has agreed to set up a single desk to make it easier for New Zealanders to invest in India, something that no other country in the world can rely upon. New Zealand is already an open country that\u2019s easy to invest in if that investment is in the best interest of New Zealand. I back Kiwi companies to go over there and do well because as we\u2019ve seen everywhere in the world, when New Zealanders invest, it grows our economy at home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf9e1eb91ef740868a26db659355f7e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279390163d273982197659a2c98a6ef60\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister saying that his counterpart, trade Minister Goyal, was misleading when he said that \u201CIf they do not invest, there will be a clawback of benefits\u201D; in other words, if New Zealand does not invest $34 billion over 15 years, then India will claw back the benefits it has given New Zealand in the FTA?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228d19240ed9ca4f5597e2bb804e0e32fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241de675e7e6d278c46e4d0bfc6857cda\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no, that\u2019s not what I\u2019m saying. What I\u2019m saying is our commitment is to promote. It is very clear in the advice the Government\u2019s received and in the text of the agreement: New Zealand must promote investment. That is the obligation that the Government has taken on. As with every Government and every trade agreement, New Zealand Governments take their obligations seriously. We are probably the standout country in the world when it comes to meeting requirements of trade agreements and upholding the rules-based approach to trade. In the case that there was a decision that was made that any party in a trade agreement is not meeting its obligation, there are processes it could go through. But it is to promote investment and this Government will\u2014as I\u2019m sure future Governments will\u2014take that obligation seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf9e1eb91ef740868a26db659355f7e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d15ed3d8de7ad3224f43fc58a36f815\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister consider that it\u2019s in good faith for New Zealand to include an investment target in the FTA which the Government knows will never be met and, second, why is there a monitoring group out of India to see whether this target is met or not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228d19240ed9ca4f5597e2bb804e0e32fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb4b5b1897cb0ec0a321d62fd6fcba85\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, aspirational targets are very important. Parties of this Parliament have a lot this year; they all want more MPs. Aspiration is something this Government backs. But what I would actually say to you is: ultimately, what we have agreed between the two parties is 12 months after the agreement enters into force, a committee is formed that will meet annually to look for ways to improve the agreement, to continue to get better access for New Zealanders, and so on. As part of that, of course, we monitor the agreement. We have similar types of arrangements with the UK and the European Union and many countries around the world. We monitor it to make sure it\u2019s working, to make sure that it is being implemented as we wanted it to. And, actually, that\u2019s a very good thing: the committee that the Minister is speaking of will be of significant benefit to New Zealand exporters. A country of 5 million people selling to a country of 1.4 billion people\u2014I don\u2019t do maths well, but that works well for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf9e1eb91ef740868a26db659355f7e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f78ca45ac667747e9bd91ae0f0011f6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Given that all politics is about realpolitik, why is there a massive chasm between the understanding of the Indian Government\u2014the Prime Minister and the trade Minister\u2014and their officials and what the country is being sold in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228d19240ed9ca4f5597e2bb804e0e32fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022777f05fe426cfd3a5887e2273c519908\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I don\u2019t think there is a massive chasm, but its election year and there\u2019s always going to be a bit of kicking and screaming in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022740e3c77a056ab17bf22af19df07accf\u0022\u003EFinance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002276de5c90791ecc8470b51ee508000d3c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022 data-id=\u0022d50e5a7a9e9f8796a4cd7c884c2964a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d50e5a7a9e9f8796a4cd7c884c2964a2\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana) (14:34)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister of Finance\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the Prime Minister\u2019s statement that we are seeing \u201Cfalling food prices, a sustained drop in inflation, and early indications that interest rates could soon begin to fall\u201D; if so, what was the increase in food prices for the year to March 2026?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u00223fa65a4df36e764649b856ae1d1d99f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223fa65a4df36e764649b856ae1d1d99f2\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (14:34)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. The Prime Minister made that statement in July 2024. At that time, the most recently available data showed that food prices had actually fallen for the year by 0.3 percent\u2014a feat not achieved by the last Government. There had been a sustained drop in inflation, and a month later, interest rates started to fall as the Reserve Bank began reducing the official cash rate\u2014so, yes, the Prime Minister was absolutely correct. To the second part of the question: in the year to March 2023, food prices rose 12.1 percent, and in the year to March 2026, they rose 3.4\u00A0percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232faed45eec27cac737a7681e51c43fb\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that the price of fruit and vegetables has increased by 9 percent since she claimed, \u201Cthe era of crushing price rises is over\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc601c03f8b0205454bf318090f61e09\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Seasonal\u2014seasonal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd2b29bba011a3c423a4a6a9492e5741\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is the case that food price increases vary across product ranges, some of which do reflect seasonal variation. It is also the case that Kiwis are paying lower prices for groceries than would have been the case if the last Government had been re-elected with their record of adding pressure to inflation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de6fd3d22ffb9ad030c31c65d75d367e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. That statement is, first of all, completely out of order, but without any foundation whatsoever as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bad1e0899a20ed09d44cf27b7248645e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is true. It\u2019s not appropriate for the Government to make\u2014look, read the Standing Orders, you\u2019ll see it\u2019s very clear there that that is out of line. I\u2019d ask the Minister to withdraw that statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd3a6133170d1fb65f581963e4d2fdb9\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d like to speak to the point of order. I was asked a question about food price increases, which I directly addressed. I also provided context for my answer, which was to say that while there had been food price increases, that it was my view\u2014which I am able under Standing Orders to give in this House\u2014that food price increases would have been greater with an alternative Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223426efe2f1bd507181e4c8158dbb9641\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The member cannot speculate on what may have happened under a different Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebf6371482d0b63c6543adf4104dc61d\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Ah!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265f6540ce4fedc023384e780b0ab9ebd\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014because it\u2019s actually not true. I think she might be having a few issues; she may need some medical help\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294e0394bd79819278482ee472ef718bf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, hang on\u2014hang on\u2014[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E] When we\u2019re all settled. It is not inappropriate for a Government Minister to refer to circumstances that they have inherited in their portfolios. It is not appropriate, though, to make a direct statement saying what would have happened had there been a different Government. If the answer had been, \u201Cif food inflation had continued at 12.1 percent, then that would have been unfortunate for the New Zealand consumer\u201D, that would be fine, but please just withdraw the statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddbafd0622cc452452e3f15df5444807\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Can I make a new point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d94d5f3bf8be7fe0c0575801acde85d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, we\u2019re dealing with this one. Are you going to withdraw that statement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ece2f8ca1610d385659e4698e6b79fe\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it relates directly to what the member just said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022239b59ff17d51bfc947e4c771c1deb2b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Then you\u2019re speaking to the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9365482a2f5f732e0e2f593de296e6d\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Yep\u2014and I take offence to the statement that I need medical help\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022132e1bbced18bf6d98858dc5747e496e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I\u2019m coming to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225632248015ac4206b07c184f91b90a9b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014which I find offensive, and I would like to assure all members of this House that I\u2019m in great health and went for an excellent run with the Treasurer of Australia and the British Chancellor in Washington DC recently, and I find it offensive, and in a long line of politicians in this House making personal aspersions on people, and, in this case, I find that it is disreputable for the Leader of the Opposition to have conducted himself that way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022850bb74951acee3d3926ee93a038f604\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yep, look, that\u2019s fine, but we\u2019ll deal with the matter in hand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270a21167568524fe381fd655a1384047\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272c0f5ecd4ce630eb3b00d401070d148\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019ve ruled on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200188ed8bee68990d11ed1eeb26d2d5e\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: No, this is the one you\u2019re still talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b003d8534486943b55327719b2e6efb1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, which one? I just want to make sure you\u2019re clear about what we\u2019re talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cc70f4d925bbb01040b6f26ceec92b2\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m talking about the idea that if a Minister can\u2019t say what the difference this Government has made is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293a3ecd48375b0b89bce4d4c8d27004e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221667e10967adfec4ce3433db53f25c9c\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014what can she comment on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ddc39353a1a70f1a5a6d7fb63058da5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, don\u2019t get clever with this. It\u2019s quite simple: a Minister may say, \u201CIf circumstances had continued, this might have been the case\u2014\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f896b3839c1ee2ac427e00017ce474d5\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s what she said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022696c0b6ae2c0f37138c973eac57e3ef2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, it was a definite reference to the previous Government, which is not in order. I\u2019m asking the Minister to withdraw the statement, and then we\u2019ll deal with the next part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c398caa2cca97162719511a5d6c20ae6\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw my statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b330baeacc1a735827f2c8f8212132b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, I\u2019m happy to withdraw my statement if the member has taken it out of context. I was referring, of course, that to the noise that she made and nothing else. [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272aeebbdba3d30780374d6c97b5edf3b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Quiet! I don\u2019t want to ask the whole House to leave. Hang on\u2014on second thoughts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da968b7515a80beb4415dd314f3f52e4\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, he made an offensive statement and now he\u2019s trying to justify his statement or qualify it. He should just withdraw it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c43099cd07c2608848d6a4d9ac9bb8ab\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c9923be2d984bb9735fd1229c205bcf\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022316cd68b1ceb2602c7ea76f24a655418\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, just a minute. This is getting quite pathetic, actually. I think anyone watching it would also add the word \u201Cchildish\u201D. I think it would be a good idea just to simply withdraw the statement and we move on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022384f7db34fd2a41b4fff1f8847f30a98\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw the statement. Point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister of Finance, before withdrawing her statement, gave a detailed explanation of what she was referring to and why she didn\u2019t think she should have to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c1dd11bda25def9b87ae886c4dea9fb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267055faf2c87da67c5854f8c7b5da275\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m just asking that we both be treated by the same standard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c288be6fdfba8b52f65490906938331c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, now you have been\u2014now you have been. We\u2019re going to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8a5411096053e6aea718e55105c7120\u0022\u003EHon James Meager\u003C/span\u003E: D\u00E9j\u00E0 vu.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022924f5f6764a5c9e80ba6a87a823e9f70\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247161bbe583a8794745ccef7b50b4f66\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that the price of meat has increased by 3 percent in six months since she posted on Facebook in September 2025 that the Government is \u201Cspeeding up the supermarket consent progress to bring in more competition and lower grocery prices\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4610e2006aff95cd02291e037761d6e\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Both statements are correct. I also share, helpfully, a visual aid for the member which shows a record of food price inflation. The bit where it\u2019s going up extremely steeply occurred in the period between 2021 and 2023. The period where it is coming down occurred under National, and this is what food price increases have looked like under this Government as compared to that very steep mountain that New Zealand shoppers were climbing under her party\u2019s Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acacf4d446fcff3eba70f6a54fb00b27\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: She can\u2019t read her own graph.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022459b5c38d5abb5c67d8c2448351b6114\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re all just listening to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1dbac95b299f6ced036b840440bb98d\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Why, then, in March 2023 did she say that National will take action to get food prices under control, once more considering that food has actually increased by 22 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d5efe79a5f841b316d1a0ca87280020\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Because that was what we wanted to do and that is what we have done. I once again wish to rehearse the figures which demonstrate the progress that we have achieved. Here are the inflation percentage changes for quarters in the period March 2022 through September 2023: 6.9, 7.3, 7.2, 7.2, 6.7, 6, 5.6. Here is the record since we were elected: 4.74, 3.3, 2.2, 2.2, 2.5, 2.73, 3.1, 3.1. You don\u2019t need to be a mathematician to realise that food price inflation has dropped dramatically under our Government when compared to the last.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d95f6bb48dcb02a815a7e6cbc2a8bdf3\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Therefore, is that a decrease in food prices since she took office?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f3b128bc818cf656b5c32da7dc319de\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: No. If the member would like a lesson on inflation then I\u2019m very happy to give her one. In part of that lesson, I will take her through the history, which is that under her Government, inflation was higher and, Lord alive, if another Labour-led Government was elected, you betcha, inflation will be higher again, borrowing will be higher again, and taxes will be higher again, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfe5ee8e7a42d5abdd523a0a53b4fdbe\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she promise Kiwis to \u201Chelp bring down food prices\u201D, \u201Cget food prices under control\u201D, and that they would \u201Cpay less for home-grown food at the checkout\u201D when she had no intention of keeping those promises?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022291a067c659c629736eae46184df4e77\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, you can\u2019t say that last part of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed61e75141512c7afdce5d954acf5fd5\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: I can restart it, then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb249f8399358a4925ec13a3b2540add\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, you can\u2019t restart it. You simply withdraw the last part of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022034c2665dff9c6d3da0e2ddc99f942ac\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw the last part of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b487acf500a283ead5d4b7e1b726b02c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cef63df629d1b2df76ce486483a4418a\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, because this Government is determined to ensure that the prices Kiwis pay will be lower than they would have otherwise been without the policy decisions that we are taking. The issue that the member continues to forget is that the period of the highest increases in food prices happened under a previous administration\u2019s policies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294b60a97f98e53997a6b26fd5621bb28\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: When can hard-working Kiwis who are paying more week in and week out for food finally expect that she will keep her commitment to \u201Clower grocery prices\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229aee667addc03bd5a86d9a25be1ede98\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I am determined to make progress on that commitment. One of the ways I will ensure that is to work very hard every day to ensure that that member and her party of people who drove food price inflation through the roof are never re-elected, because that is the biggest risk to Kiwi shoppers concerned about grocery prices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b76a89b3ae7036c2e9e59c2fa183c74b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Nasty, nasty, nasty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221be1bcd666b179cba7ddf7f3413edef9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Carlos Cheung\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258c1a38353c2b704b6afdc64172eb059\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t think you should be calling anyone nasty today, Chris.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e5fbfa10a142ccc2f0a6d6913ea6b92\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, hang on. You can both go in a minute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282dcf9406dec0be0ddbcfe2936d3b18b\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I\u2019ll go if he goes, absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225eb45471ccdadb8fefe42a4aed761c42\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if you volunteer. We have question No. 8 from Dr Carlos Cheung.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b618b847a57b4afb94b76eaea9e042a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ba46f4089b3d425b278126c62726a68\u0022\u003EDr Carlos Cheung\u003C/span\u003E: You mean question No. 6, is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223456cef093ff49ebd4300a086a9cbdec\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226ba6c54d73b91de982d9507e4111e4c3\u0022\u003EAuckland\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227d174ba2fef7873a5c5a7b196ad9edf0\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b618b847a57b4afb94b76eaea9e042a5\u0022 data-id=\u0022e60b2b67d261d0ee1a39a798b42bfa1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b618b847a57b4afb94b76eaea9e042a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e60b2b67d261d0ee1a39a798b42bfa1f\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill) (14:45)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister for Auckland\u003C/span\u003E: What recent announcement has he made about progressing a city deal for Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022 data-id=\u002227676d9ef05ddbcab5085af6fafc2043\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227676d9ef05ddbcab5085af6fafc2043\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister for Auckland) (14:45)\u003C/span\u003E: On 10 April, I joined our Prime Minister and the Minister for Infrastructure to announce Auckland\u2019s landmark city deal. Auckland is the economic engine of our country; it accounts for 40 percent of New Zealand\u2019s GDP and it\u2019s our gateway to the world. When Auckland succeeds, New Zealand succeeds and when Auckland grows, New Zealand prospers. That\u2019s why this city deal matters. It sets out how this Government and Auckland will work together in the future to unlock the potential of our biggest city.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b618b847a57b4afb94b76eaea9e042a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6fca3928e21c0573d7420b663b49c8c\u0022\u003EDr Carlos Cheung\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s in the Auckland city deal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242b4d1363b9f75be9f4733d41095e39f\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: To name just a few of the commitments in the deal, we\u2019re unlocking Eden Park\u2019s ownership and operating model, and recognising Eden Park as New Zealand\u2019s national stadium. We have agreed to work together on key transport projects to unlock growth, including the second harbour crossing, the Northwest Rapid Transit, and City Rail Link level crossings. We\u2019re jointly going to develop a destination and major event strategy to grow tourism and hospitality in Auckland. There is a lot to be excited about in this deal, so I encourage everyone to take a read.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b618b847a57b4afb94b76eaea9e042a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fadc6a7ba3b552ff17276ff04d0af3c\u0022\u003EDr Carlos Cheung\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Auckland city deal change the way that Wellington and Auckland work together?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e984929847cfdbadad511ee65d7db6e\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: Let\u2019s be clear: the way of working between Auckland and Wellington, in the past, has been fragmented and uncoordinated. This deal recognises the size and significance of Auckland, it sets out joint priorities, and levels the relationship between central government and our largest city. Based on a foundation of mutual respect, central government and Auckland will be working from the same plan, heading in the same direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b618b847a57b4afb94b76eaea9e042a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226493f0d6922efed193aa1a8624a2aee7\u0022\u003EDr Carlos Cheung\u003C/span\u003E: What reactions has he seen to the deal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219f6f4888cf0bdec6500be97e32d1273\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: A lot of positive feedback in regards to this. Infrastructure New Zealand welcomed the announcement, saying \u201CAuckland\u2019s City Deal will boost New Zealand\u2019s economic growth\u201D. Business New Zealand called the deal \u201Ca long-overdue step toward unlocking economic growth,\u201D with \u201Cinnovative funding mechanisms\u201D being \u201Cparticularly encouraging\u201D. The deal is the first step to a stronger relationship between central government and a more productive Auckland. That is good for Auckland and, ultimately, good for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002235fb06f0c9028da57e73abaad48e6582\u0022\u003EChildren\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226e3547b8bbe0cfc21b8ba5e09ae5d193\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b064dd56673f4c1cb11c1242823abb92\u0022 data-id=\u002267c7bf0c5cdcc9f3fa161c9fec796b00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b064dd56673f4c1cb11c1242823abb92\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267c7bf0c5cdcc9f3fa161c9fec796b00\u0022\u003ELAURA McCLURE (ACT) (14:48)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister for Children\u003C/span\u003E: How many Oranga Tamariki front-line sites has she visited since becoming Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e13c0cfff1694ee6966ced2df467878f\u0022 data-id=\u002273ac934febb903f3c38370617c23c7bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e13c0cfff1694ee6966ced2df467878f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273ac934febb903f3c38370617c23c7bd\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children) (14:48)\u003C/span\u003E: Since becoming the Minister for Children, in November 2023, I\u2019m proud to say I have visited all 72 front-line Oranga Tamariki offices and secure residences, as well as a number of Oranga Tamariki - and community-run supervised group homes and remand homes. These visits and my discussions with front-line staff have been hugely important in how I\u2019ve approached this job and my work programme. I want to take this opportunity to thank the many hundreds of staff for taking the time to meet me, sharing their concerns and their solutions to the challenges they face and, on many occasions, sharing, what I call, their \u201Cwhy\u201D\u2014the reasons they get up every day to do the important work that they do. They make the lives of children and their families better and ensure that children have the opportunity to grow up in safe environments and be the best versions of themselves\u2014something that every child in New Zealand deserves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b064dd56673f4c1cb11c1242823abb92\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022438ff45f8052289b90d019dc15dde3f2\u0022\u003ELaura McClure\u003C/span\u003E: What is the benefit from visiting front-line offices and speaking to front-line staff?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e13c0cfff1694ee6966ced2df467878f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3468e7668665e59bf3ae0ddce1d44d8\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: No disrespect to my officials on The Terrace, but I have found that there is nothing better than hearing directly from the people on the ground, doing the actual hard work every day. I think most people in this House would agree that there is no substitute for making informed decisions than by actually getting out of this place and talking to those who are directly impacted by the decisions that we make here in this place. The smallest things can make the biggest difference. I think of the example of visiting one rural site and hearing about a fleet issue with the new vehicles that national office have been rolling out. These new vehicles might have been great in Auckland or Christchurch, but they weren\u2019t suitable for the sorts of distances and roads that these social workers had to travel each and every day. I was able to take their concerns back to national office, and they were able to resolve this issue for them quickly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b064dd56673f4c1cb11c1242823abb92\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f69f81d8ce3ec73e0efbcecdbdb0ff6\u0022\u003ELaura McClure\u003C/span\u003E: What do front-line staff tell her at these visits, and how has this changed over the period that she has been the Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e13c0cfff1694ee6966ced2df467878f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220eefcc6ae6573aa956a9d91194e9f250\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: There have been some common themes that are raised at almost every site I visit. The commitment these staff feel to the children and the families that they serve and the dedication they have to their work to help make people\u2019s lives better is clear across the country. We should never forget this and never take this for granted. They also tell me about the generational issues many of these families are struggling with and how, despite their best efforts and going above and beyond for them, unfortunately, that is not always enough. More recently, I have been hearing from front-line staff that they are seeing some positive changes with the system, which includes the likes of Health, Police, Education, and the Ministry of Social Development working better together for the benefit of children and families. There is still a lot more work to do, but I\u2019d like to thank my ministerial colleagues and the staff at those agencies for breaking down the silos that, for many years, have not been putting young people first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b064dd56673f4c1cb11c1242823abb92\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d55b4cc6a0668c1d6df42f9118eb86e7\u0022\u003ELaura McClure\u003C/span\u003E: What changes has she seen in the culture and professionalism within these offices over the period that she has been visiting these sites?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e13c0cfff1694ee6966ced2df467878f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c270a22f6908db2fa40dab7960730e84\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: When I was in Opposition, I regularly heard stories of poor practice and behaviour, as well as sites and facilities that were no longer fit for purpose. To address this, I made the professionalisation of the workforce a priority for Oranga Tamariki leadership. This Government has invested $41\u00A0million in their professionalisation through Budget 2025, and I\u2019m pleased to confirm that the Oranga Tamariki sites I visit today are significantly improved in both culture and practice. Harm within youth justice and care and protection residences has seen a 14 percent decrease since 2024, and staff are telling me that they now feel safer, supported, and heard. As a Government, we have also made significant investments into upgrading facilities, with $22\u00A0million for repairs and upgrades to Oranga Tamariki residences and $33\u00A0million in safety and quality improvements to the facilities at youth justice residences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022563c596506cd9f32005c856dbb7f4c85\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Has she visited Birthright in Lower Hutt, which is a front-line service who will be forced to close their doors to over 1,000 wh\u0101nau as a result of Oranga Tamariki funding not being able to keep up with cost of living pressures, including rising fuel prices?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e13c0cfff1694ee6966ced2df467878f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc7a9fc683192d679fdd6f8868019c5a\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not going to talk to individual contract decisions. Those are operational matters. Yes, I will say I have visited Birthright, but I will not be going into operational matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a791a34a9d03efdfefa799c8828c6b4d\u0022\u003EHousing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002292163bc357585d446c3929038c0d676e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022 data-id=\u0022723baf845bee081992a6853d62711a93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022723baf845bee081992a6853d62711a93\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central) (14:53)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister of Housing\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the reported findings of The Urban Advisory\u2019s second annual housing survey that New Zealanders are dissatisfied with the quality and insecurity of the rental homes available to them; if so, is he doing anything to improve the quality and security of rental housing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022 data-id=\u0022756f51f6664eee81c265b02c2aff6e7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022756f51f6664eee81c265b02c2aff6e7f\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA (Associate Minister of Housing) (14:53)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister of Housing\u003C/span\u003E: Sat sri akaal and kia ora, Mr Speaker. The housing survey found that issues like quality and insecurity are not short-term fluctuations but structural characteristics of the New Zealand housing system. That is why this Government is absolutely laser-focused on fixing some of the structural defects through, for example, some of the work championed by Minister Jones around granny flats, or the reinstatement of interest deductibility by Minister Seymour, or the absolute support by Minister Willis and others around ongoing mahi to build supply through M\u0101ori community housing providers and K\u0101inga Ora, and, most importantly, of course, the grand work of Minister Bishop around the fast track\u2014yesterday\u2019s 19th approval, with the Ashbourne development in Waikato to enable more housing. I particularly agree with the survey where it says that providing the right houses in the right places is not only a social necessity but a primary driver for commercial success. Yes, we\u2019re concerned about security and quality, but that\u2019s why I\u2019m pleased to see some softening in the rental market, which allows tenants more choice, and pleased to see credible measures such as the Stats New Zealand rental price index showing flattening rent prices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022671f9511b0e0947a6d848d19853b851b\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: If he is so concerned about security of housing, then why did the Government proceed with introducing no-cause evictions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7a5fa8cb62c0c38129bd2473e8e4dd7\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: Namaste an\u014D, Mr Speaker. The no-cause evictions are part of a broader suite of changes that were made right across the housing system to ensure there is a higher level of supply. That flexibility, which is given to landlords and also tenants, who are now able to terminate their tenancies with three weeks\u2019 notice, is absolutely right square in the middle of a suite of changes that we have seen, and, as a result, a flattening of rent prices, which I\u2019m sure parties opposite would be absolutely enthusiastic about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eeaa60f6846ab6fed6be54e4d587ea35\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: If he is relying on increasing housing supply as a response to structural issues with housing, why did he cut Auckland\u2019s housing capacity targets by 33 percent, or up to 600,000 new homes, under urgency?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022094c91c915639f9296bb8b9ecdcd8eeb\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: That question absolutely demonstrates the lack of awareness of parties opposite about what\u2019s actually going on in Auckland, and I recommend they take a flight and get up there and see what\u2019s happening. We have landed in the right place\u2014[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E] I can\u2019t even hear myself, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f5887bdb5cc6062fa3f86ce91d9b198\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think you can stop for a minute. The people who are heckling from the other side just need to draw a bit of breath and recognise that a constant barrage\u2014[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E] It\u2019s still continuing. You can\u2019t do that. Make a comment if you need to, but make it brief and succinct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228652b210f144396c37a5ad502d1d27ef\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EE te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, kia ora\u003C/span\u003E this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271d8acf3a6f0476999f9d03b4ae70e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a85616598b69c0df06fa4e14c75a2f2\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003E\u0100e, t\u012Bmata an\u014D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a0a9418d6a4dd3661cd70054cbdaa5a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, he\u2019s one of yours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da2073db0f051690b04d0445edfe89d3\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. My sense of the situation is that many parties on this side of the House want to see more supply and want to see more growth in Auckland and, of course, to ensure that rental prices continue to remain flat and remain affordable and accessible for Aucklanders. But what we\u2019re not going to do is come up with some random number, right out there in the gazillions, in order to justify 2, 3, 4 million more houses being built. It\u2019s absolutely ridiculous to think that 2 million houses are going to come on stream in Auckland in the next 10 years. That is not what\u2019s going to happen. What we are going to do is ensure that there is a balanced approach to the supply of housing in Auckland that accommodates not only Aucklanders who are moving to Auckland but also those who live there now and the needs that they have in their communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227500f1e77bd8b6b0367ad54abd8b2c7d\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: If housing is to \u201Cremain affordable\u201D, why have one in four respondents been having to skip meals in the last year, mostly due to housing costs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe86be480c020adb1c4af6ced3c63a72\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: I think the implication in the question was that skipping meals is a direct result of the flattening of the rental market across New Zealand. I think that is very disingenuous and has no legitimate connection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3c533f8bcc0f62b457ec05693810798\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. That wasn\u2019t the question. The question was, in his previous answer that housing affordability will remain\u2014I am saying, how can there be housing affordability when one in four people, according to this report, are skipping eating to pay housing costs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297b0d6899faea07d373ab425cb1a2a22\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s what you just said. The question you asked related to that, and he answered that question. You can have another supplementary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022549782c83985075b08f8db7ea0d6bb8e\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: OK, all right. Does he consider it a systemic failure of our housing system that over a quarter of New Zealanders in the housing survey have delayed medical care to make ends meet; and if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbcd771f79fca143de49d033945e71a8\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: Again, there continues to be a connection between choices that people have made around housing and choices around things like food and medical costs. We are very confident that we are resetting the housing system to enable not only more supply of houses but to ensure that affordability continues, whether or not it is in a rental space or an owner space. We are very confident that we are heading in the right direction, particularly with fast-track approvals that are coming on stream in places like Nelson and places like Morrinsville and, of course, famous places like Hamilton.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022617396b4de7095abdd4e1560105eeabb\u0022\u003EEnergy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022720510e103f4797e511094b4b47ac6f9\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1885eba3fa65d65018244848397edba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1885eba3fa65d65018244848397edba\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram) (14:59)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EAssociate Minister for Energy\u003C/span\u003E: What advice, if any, has he seen on the impact of Kuwait declaring force majeure on shipments of oil and refined petroleum on New Zealand\u2019s future fuel supply?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002271d8acf3a6f0476999f9d03b4ae70e7d\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa754b530d29dfe70c21200becf3c7a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271d8acf3a6f0476999f9d03b4ae70e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa754b530d29dfe70c21200becf3c7a4\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Associate Minister for Energy) (14:59)\u003C/span\u003E: I have been advised that the Kuwait Petroleum Corporation first declared force majeure on 8 March. I have also been advised that, globally, we consume 100 million barrels of crude oil per day. Twenty million barrels was previously going through the strait; 2.6 million barrels of that volume came from Kuwait, and less than 10 percent of that crude oil makes its way to South-east Asia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022333b624a287a2b070fdd2b58eebc4bdb\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: What advice has he received on potential price increases for Kiwis at the pump, as a result of Kuwait\u2019s most recent declaration of force majeure on shipments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271d8acf3a6f0476999f9d03b4ae70e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d29ebd8424696b2d46cb53103533c5c4\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, given the minuscule amount of the crude oil which feeds the refineries in South-east Asia, where New Zealand derives its refined fuel from, such an insignificant amount is highly unlikely to show a long-term impact, and I\u2019m advised there is no immediate impact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e45340112b9489f45d1ebaae3a0a8e9\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Has he sought advice on using the additional powers put in the Fuel Industry Act that allow him to increase minimum stockholding levels from their current levels?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271d8acf3a6f0476999f9d03b4ae70e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f102a7862ab6dce6cfcc76a1aa0fe7e2\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Naturally, we have, as a country, a just-in-time fuel importation model. The fuel companies are operating within their statutory thresholds, and whilst there may be a small matter of ebb and flow, they are well within their legal parameters. It is not my intention, with the current advice, to place more pressure on the fuel importers; I\u2019d rather see them manage their business and keep their pledge to Kiwis that the model of just-in-time can be made to work whilst our Government deals with other options.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd88ad6f80ec29663c92357dedd61d00\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Has he sought advice on using the additional powers put in the Fuel Industry Act that allow him to require more detailed reporting on fuel stocks and supply chains?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271d8acf3a6f0476999f9d03b4ae70e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebd52c910095314e17e4ed29c4ff2417\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, a system, in order for it to have integrity, should be buttressed by quality information. I\u2019m advised that the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment does have access to different sources of information. Where previously there may have been some reluctance from the fuel import companies to provide information, that is no longer the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9923739ab9261f985ffa426406b63d0\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Why has he not sought advice on using the full statutory powers put in place by Labour, but instead has chosen to rely on voluntary cooperation from fuel companies, under his National Fuel Plan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271d8acf3a6f0476999f9d03b4ae70e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206beab03a0f538caa9bd7eeb149c61b5\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I say, once again, I most certainly will not emulate anything to do with Labour, given the tragic outcomes at the Marsden Point refinery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220277b8a5c64c097db6dd33acc6cdf0e5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Will he now commit to immediately consulting on higher minimum stockholding levels and tighter reporting, or is he still confident that his bare minimum approach is sufficient for New Zealanders in the face of escalating global risk?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271d8acf3a6f0476999f9d03b4ae70e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022419f03825137884c7229c8f0ed19e150\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I say once again that the law outlines what are the thresholds. This is not a time for reckless assertions, adventurous language\u2014and I only wish that the member showed passion, zest, and advocacy, rather than acquiesce to the closure of the refinery at Marsden Point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d94ae2217671b2884679cea440991e15\u0022\u003EPrime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f892b2b9f74260ad0747b53c9d7a009e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022 data-id=\u002294e9662e10c0023996c0f4a716d89b8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294e9662e10c0023996c0f4a716d89b8b\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori) (15:03)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EPrime Minister\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by all his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022 data-id=\u00220b4f0722b4eb76b11faea0cbce9842ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b4f0722b4eb76b11faea0cbce9842ad\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Deputy Prime Minister) (15:04)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EPrime Minister\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, I stand by all of the Government\u2019s statements and actions, particularly those that have benefited M\u0101ori in the form of five charter schools, which are lifting achievement and showing real tino rangatiratanga in action, allowing communities to take charge of their destiny, with education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203fa2e821b6c327c639c747c72adee9f\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by voting against the Treaty principles bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022895c315167c3e869f71bbf36acdc5782\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Prime Minister, absolutely. One of the things that the Treaty promised was the rule of law, but the rule of law needs to be clear and accessible to all people, and that is why, as part of a coalition agreement between New Zealand First and the National Party, we are clarifying and, in some cases, removing references to the Treaty principles in law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2094a537f754158df0f15e7e5d05077\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Will he commit to opposing any similar legislation that comes from the Treaty clause review?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae0712cd82058118c01a8d8b35ae5a89\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Prime Minister, no. I\u2019ve just given a rationale for why the Government believes it is important to clarify and, in some cases, remove Treaty clauses from legislation, and so it would be rather strange to commit to opposing legislation designed to give effect to the policy intent that I\u2019ve just said the Government has.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210e148e588e1074710d327b25fb73abb\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Question No. 1 and question No. 2 were very specific. One was: does he stand against the Treaty principle\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022415963c477913136a25813e880c80cb0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I heard them. What\u2019s the problem?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022632cbff1c6423919fbb7ca429c5ec70b\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Question No. 2 was: will he commit to opposing similar legislation?\u2014full stop. It was a yes or no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f01692eb0005b2d61bea192f36ea0aef\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, you can\u2019t ask for a yes or no answer. The Standing Orders will tell you that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2de9f014f7e1b0dd9d90a62e73ca961\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: What has changed in the Prime Minister\u2019s position?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b136f41fea598d32eda0fc0ddef49741\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Prime Minister, it would appear by the member\u2019s references to question No. 1 and question No. 2 that she is not thinking for herself, but simply reading off a sheet, and the next question that might be asked is: who wrote this stuff? None the less, the Prime Minister has not changed his position. If the member would like to point to a specific position that she believes the Prime Minister has changed, then I will attempt to answer on his behalf.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2ec558da68045771fba35257f2f4add\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Why should New Zealanders trust the Prime Minister\u2019s position on Te Tiriti when it shifts, dependent on what keeps this coalition together?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8dac5f809f11a84747251588c822419\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Prime Minister, New Zealanders should trust the Prime Minister\u2019s position on the Treaty because this Government has actually delivered for M\u0101ori\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210d05c8f6862c14c6d5947b938b6e354\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: No, you haven\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc65a5a97e3827aaff9e9da4c10cd75c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in practical ways. Someone has said that, no, we haven\u2019t. Well, let me tell you a little bit about it. the number of M\u0101ori new entrants who are at or above expectations was 25 percent. Only one in four M\u0101ori students, the new entrants, was at or above expectations for things like reading and maths and writing, things that give people a future\u2014only one in four. In the couple of years we\u2019ve been in, we\u2019ve got it up to 43 percent. We\u2019ve nearly doubled the number of young M\u0101ori new entrants who are meeting expectations for critical skills that will give them real mana in the future and the ability to navigate their century on their terms, equipped with the taiaha of knowledge. That\u2019s why we should be trusting this Prime Minister on the Treaty, because we\u2019re getting actual practical results, and these guys say that we\u2019re not getting results. Maybe they think that young M\u0101ori reading and writing doesn\u2019t matter. Certainly, from the results they got in Government, it seems that\u2019s exactly what they think.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201d5f72c8a3a240d534c1812d59ac2a6\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister saying\u2014[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a82653b67ee27e09ed44a9b750372426\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223aa5e7604c93684e50ff3224e54e6910\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora. Is the Prime Minister saying that his position on Te Tiriti is dependent on political convenience?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022212b8646ac8dfd38e55928fc8cfcde8e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Prime Minister, no, but I think we\u2019re seeing a very good example of what happens when you give a job to the wrong person. You see, this question was down under the name of Rawiri Waititi\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022794e1a849e8813a557dfa08b891c900e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. Sorry, Mr Seymour\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e8385a68fde756cdc7815355de1bdf6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and we\u2019ve now got a member who can\u2019t think on her feet just reading off a script.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227480130b9c627f96d15de4da7e1967d4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows that you can\u2019t refer to matters in that way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224db4548026267350fb75de6c56b545e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: The question was also to the Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d07b8fe34ec84df5a878e44fc336c73\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Neither is the Prime Minister here. Can the Prime Minister explain\u2014[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220276eb06f466175f220860558914e314\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a moment. Absolute silence, apart from the person asking the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228852fd084ff5b950e1c6e443238025ea\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister explain why his Government is prioritising Treaty clause changes over urgent action on the cost of living, fuel security, and climate resilience?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fb1f369ad1f7652840ca6a01a00d98f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Prime Minister, the Government is not prioritising changes to Treaty clauses over action on the cost of living and fuel security. As important as the changes to the Treaty clauses may be to the future of this country, Ministers are meeting every morning at quarter to 8 to get situational updates and check on progress in relation to the fuel situation. Ministers are meeting several times a day\u2014Nicola Willis is here, and she\u2019s probably getting sick of seeing me; I think this is our third meeting in 24 hours before question time\u2014about the Budget, which is designed to take the pressure off inflation and interest rates, which were so devastating to Kiwi households when those guys were in power. The priorities of this Government are the cost of living and the fuel crisis, and the number one way to understand someone\u2019s priorities is to see how\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ba4be382e87059428318113a3b07d5b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Good\u2014shorten it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eedb9994da19b0aa40ef4a67cc9ebfef\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014they spend their time. You can see how we\u2019re spending ours. I hate to think how that member has been spending hers\u2014obviously, not preparing for question time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac9b8fd1a932e9cc5191331853279ee2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Shorten it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022653898f1c250965e257650373d5cb8a3\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister accept that stronger partnership with M\u0101ori under Te Tiriti would improve national resilience, and, if not, what evidence does he rely on to reject that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249e13e1e3e4173bf4b1a5c5c0b11d08e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Prime Minister, we actually believe that strong partnership with all New Zealanders strengthens resilience. We do not believe that New Zealanders should be ranked in a hierarchy of when their ancestors came to their land. We should be united by the fact that we are a nation of pioneers, with a spirit of adventure, who took huge risks many times to live in these beautiful islands\u2014that is what unites us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b4db225f5b8e48b12b542f9c2aa9596\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister stand by Fire and Emergency New Zealand (FENZ) funding decisions that will result in the loss of nearly 200 emergency coordination and prevention roles at a time of increasing extreme weather events?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022decb53eebfcb39e345048ec680f880d3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Prime Minister, I\u2019m advised that that is not true. What\u2019s more, if you look at what\u2019s happened with FENZ, the budget of Fire and Emergency\u2014which is funded primarily from levies on people\u2019s household insurance\u2014has stayed the same; in fact, it\u2019s risen slightly. However, money has been taken out of the back office and put in the front line, fixing up the fire trucks, buying the diesel, and ensuring that our firefighters are well provided for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e25e5426230b164cceda35603154b9f9\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Is that why they\u2019re striking twice a week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a35f01b38363d1ad4ed0af57bad511a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: As a great New Zealander once said, it won\u2019t happen overnight, but it will happen, because dealing to decades of neglect\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262d95d8f3facf348f7f1ed7fece1d673\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Go talk to your firefighters in Parnell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc201edbea7bc7f2eff380389ddae6c7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick says, \u201CGo and talk to the firefighters in Parnell.\u201D Well, she\u2019ll be pleased to know, I do exactly that. Let me tell you what firefighters I talk to say, Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick: they are saying\u2014Debbie Ngarewa-Packer is putting her arms up; she wants more attention. The fact is that they understand there\u2019s been neglect for years of their fire trucks, and this Government, under Brooke van Velden, is finally fixing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221d9fd74326001d9ebf7852863bfcc1f4\u0022\u003EVeterans\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002220eeaca13738d338cc5bda1abc8ef7a1\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002288978fb9592a4911a8e47eae04d164f3\u0022 data-id=\u00227978cb0ef63f395a58f1aaa9906bf702\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002288978fb9592a4911a8e47eae04d164f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227978cb0ef63f395a58f1aaa9906bf702\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula) (15:12)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister for Veterans\u003C/span\u003E: How will this Anzac Day be different to previous years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022624b5e5ecd274e178a4554c1ae59f723\u0022 data-id=\u00222f8fab8e0120d6c3b8f878a3f393c678\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022624b5e5ecd274e178a4554c1ae59f723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f8fab8e0120d6c3b8f878a3f393c678\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Veterans) (15:13)\u003C/span\u003E: Anzac Day is a significant day for New Zealand, and this year it will be historically different thanks to changes brought about by the Government and supported by the whole of Parliament\u2014I thank all colleagues for that. I also acknowledge the member asking the question; I thank her for her service, along with others in this House who have done likewise. The Anzac Day Act has been modernised to acknowledge the service and sacrifice of all who have served New Zealand in times of war. Prior to the changes that we have made together, the Act failed to acknowledge conflicts and operations after 1966, meaning that many service personnel were technically excluded from official commemorations under the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002288978fb9592a4911a8e47eae04d164f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022125888226ecd7b83072ff41f2000a223\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: Why is Anzac Day important to New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022624b5e5ecd274e178a4554c1ae59f723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ce708e5f40d79a054e8d959393ad9b3\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Honouring our service personnel on Anzac Day is one of our most enduring national traditions. It binds us to the history that surrounds us in the form of memorial plaques and wreaths in this very debating chamber. Anzac Day connects us to the story of who we are as a nation and provides us with an opportunity to reflect on the courage and extraordinary sacrifice of those who have served to defend and protect New Zealand, our ideals, and our interests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002288978fb9592a4911a8e47eae04d164f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255e32099462dcbff1e249f4384bbf31e\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister give some examples of individuals who will be covered under the new legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022624b5e5ecd274e178a4554c1ae59f723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1b89252ea5b4d60646093a21be17e84\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: The new legislation is also more inclusive about those who participated in the first landings at Gallipoli. It covers personnel from countries such as France and India in that campaign, along with civilians serving in medical units, members of the Merchant Navy during the world wars, and those who died while training for conflict. It also extends to post-Vietnam service, including veterans of Timor-Leste and Afghanistan, including the member herself, as well as personnel deployed on UN and other multinational missions, such as this Sinai peacekeeping force.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002288978fb9592a4911a8e47eae04d164f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ee6044cbffaeff84842f862dc1586e2\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: What else is the Government doing to support veterans?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022624b5e5ecd274e178a4554c1ae59f723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254c4f3edd32c94030e7042cf1102582e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Further to amending the Anzac Day Act, the Veterans\u2019 Recognition Bill has been introduced to Parliament to formally recognise more sailors, soldiers, and aviators under the term \u201Cveteran\u201D. For those who have worn military uniform, that term carries profound personal meaning; it speaks to identity, pride, and a recognition of service and sacrifice. There are some in our military community who feel that the current legal definition creates an unnecessary divide. The Government is also working towards establishing a national veterans\u2019 day\u2014not a statutory public holiday, I note\u2014to be marked annually with veterans\u2019 service awards. I\u2019d like to finish by thanking our current Defence Force personnel for their service and by acknowledging those passed: we will remember them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ebfb86491057e74f67f0c56c918d3b3f\u0022\u003ESocial Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002223c05b495604ef96e139b511ef03b41e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022 data-id=\u00227f162b9fa0a91744ca3a0e410b05b56b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f162b9fa0a91744ca3a0e410b05b56b\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour) (15:15)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003ESocial Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by her statement of 3 December 2025 that \u201CI accept that there will be households who are finding it tough right now\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u002215ba0cc092e5a89df479a55d792a213d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215ba0cc092e5a89df479a55d792a213d\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment) (15:15)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Our Government has always acknowledged that many Kiwis have been finding it tough during a prolonged cost of living challenge. Over the last two years, we\u2019ve focused on fixing the basics such as lowering inflation and reducing taxes because New Zealand needs a growing economy to create more jobs and lift wages. Higher wages and more jobs are ultimately what will help ease Kiwis\u2019 cost of living burden and that is what we\u2019re focused on. That\u2019s also why our Government\u2019s welfare reset is shifting the dial. We are driving policies to support job growth and preparing job seekers so they are ready to seize the opportunity of work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ba1d01fc10fb1fc4ea1afed2fa8704b\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Are things getting better or worse when Auckland City Mission is reporting that people needing their services due to the cost of living has jumped to 60 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022095c82884ab617e75396f0f735c48d16\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I accept that the immediate challenge that we\u2019re facing as a country due to the conflict in the Middle East that is completely outside any New Zealander\u2019s control is adding a layer of pressure to organisations at the front line. I would just say to the House and to those listening: if anyone is experiencing difficulties in meeting the costs that they face, I would encourage them to get in contact with the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) and seek assistance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022738b4e2344228158b7a82907a20638ee\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Are food grant requests going up in response to the fuel crisis, and, if so, does that show that fuel support is reaching everyone who needs it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7d172f7848ceda1156bf42e68667c69\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: What I can say is that we have seen an increase in the number of special needs grants that have been granted for food for the month of March, which tells me the system is working. Where people have needs and requests for assistance, they go to MSD and they get them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3f360fe4e1e93a0ae5fc3282be61381\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Are St Vincent De Paul Society\u2019s reports that increasing numbers of people can\u2019t collect the food they need because they can\u2019t afford fuel a sign that Government assistance is reaching everyone who needs it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a105819581429a0cc30190aff682fef\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: What we\u2019ve been really clear about in terms of the response to the current fuel challenges is that support needs to be temporary, targeted, and timely. That is why we have provided several rounds of support, the first being the $50 for working families. The second is the support for in-between travel for people like carers, for example. The third we have seen is the increase for over 1.5 million New Zealanders that came into effect on 1 April.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c26cb4802205c95757257959c8f97dd7\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: When will she realise that accepting that people are doing it tough without doing enough to help isn\u2019t good enough?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e532ffa500baf172995c46e96f2906e0\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, what we\u2019re really clear about is we will not be making the mistakes of the previous Government in response to COVID, where money was hosed around and the long-term impact and the long-term pain hits those on the lowest incomes the hardest. What we will ensure is that the response to the current fuel crisis will be targeted, timely, and it will be specific, so that we don\u2019t create long-term pain for those who can least afford it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291adbb9f3ecf75849562cff5a14661b1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK, so that\u2019s the conclusion of question time. We\u2019ll take a 30-second break while those who have to leave can leave quietly and without conversations on the way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e659b55bd17809734334388432386457\u0022\u003EDebates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223ca63f9d18bba4cbeca12b0d45051d87\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab2f96e5445cd1acdf9c312fb05f1f68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab2f96e5445cd1acdf9c312fb05f1f68\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (15:20)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the House take note of miscellaneous business\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe world is experiencing the worst oil shock in history. We are experiencing a conflict in the Middle East with an uncertain trajectory and no certainty of an enduring peace anytime soon. New Zealanders are feeling the impact: rising prices and anxiety about what a less stable world means for us here at home. For our part, as a Government, we are offering a responsible economic management approach, a proactive approach to securing fuel supplies, and ensuring we\u2019re providing temporary and targeted relief to those who most need it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMeanwhile, colleagues, what are we getting from the Opposition at this time of democratic debate? Well, let me paint a little picture, because, once a week, I get the joy of heading up to Radio New Zealand for a weekly joint interview with Carmel Sepuloni\u2014sometimes Tangi Utikere fills in on her behalf\u2014and here\u2019s how it goes each and every week: Ingrid or Corin, and soon, John, ask me a question\u2014next week, I suppose it might be John\u2014and I answer the question. Carmel says that my answer is \u201Cterrible\u201D, that the Government should be doing \u201Csomething else\u201D. The interviewer says to Carmel, \u201CWell, is that what you would do?\u201D, and Carmel says, \u201CWell, I can\u2019t commit to that. We haven\u2019t released our policy yet.\u201D The interviewer says, \u201CWell, what would you do?\u201D, and Carmel says, \u201CWell, I\u2019m not going to tell you that, we haven\u2019t released our policy yet. We\u2019ll be doing that closer to the election.\u201D And then the interviewer says, \u201CWell, how would you pay for it?\u201D, and then Carmel says, \u201CWell, I\u2019m not going to tell you that, we haven\u2019t yet finalised our policy. We have to wait until after the Budget.\u201D And then the interviewer says, \u201CWell, yes, but how would you pay for it and what would you do differently?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWell, just as an aside, Labour\u2019s policies invariably involve committing to spend more money that the Government doesn\u2019t have. Then Carmel, of course, then continues to say that they will have more to say about that when the books have been opened; which rather leads me to think, what do they think is going to happen when we open the books at Budget day? Is it their view that when we open those books, we will report to the nation: \u201CWe have discovered the forest of magic money trees that Labour has been looking for, and now they\u2019re free to come up with some ideas\u201D? Because\u2014newsflash, Mr Hipkins\u2014that ain\u2019t happening. Or is it that they think, colleagues, that we\u2019re going to discover oil, and the discovery of oil is going to mean we\u2019re flush with cash? Well, here\u2019s another newsflash, you banned oil and gas exploration, so that won\u2019t be happening anytime soon either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThese interviews go on, colleagues. It\u2019s very tiresome, I think, not just for me, but for the listeners at home, and certainly the interviewers. It\u2019s got to the point where I could spare Carmel and Tangi the long trek up The Terrace from Parliament to Radio New Zealand\u2019s studio, and I could just stand in for them. If I know the answers before they\u2019ve even started speaking, I could say, \u201CWell, we don\u2019t have a position on that. We don\u2019t have a policy on that. No, no, no, the Government\u2019s idea is bad, they\u2019re bad, it\u2019s bad. We have no alternative plan, and we would spend more because we know where the secret money stash is hidden.\u201D I would do a great job of filling in for Carmel and Tangi. What we are looking at, my friends, is an Opposition with no plans, no policies\u2014actually, no principles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMr Hipkins likes to speak of kindness, if not back it up with his actions. And in fact, what we have is the same simple formula they\u2019ve always had. What is it? More tax, more borrowing, more inflation. So my message to New Zealanders today is: yes, it is the case that our country finds itself in a very challenging time, and yes, it is the case that New Zealanders have endured a very difficult economic recovery following a period of sky-high inflation and interest rates. But the question for New Zealanders is not, \u201CIs it bad or not?\u201D It\u2019s not, \u201CWho can describe how bad it is the best?\u201D It\u2019s \u201CHow do we fix it?\u201D It is the time to stick to a responsible course of economic management which sees us through this crisis and through to the other side stronger. It is not a time for a change to a bunch of people who can\u2019t even answer a single question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022 data-id=\u0022e31c8407fb00b38a892d2b4ca427660a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e31c8407fb00b38a892d2b4ca427660a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition) (15:25)\u003C/span\u003E: At a time of huge global uncertainty with an international fuel crisis, a breakdown of the rules around the world as we know them, a cost of living crisis here in New Zealand, a shrinking economy, jobs being lost, higher unemployment, and business liquidations reaching a 15-year high, New Zealanders are naturally looking to the people who are currently in Government for leadership. They\u2019re looking for some reassurance that the Government has a plan, and they\u2019re looking for answers about what the Government will do if indeed things get worse with regard to the international fuel crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, they\u2019re not getting answers on any of those questions. They\u2019re getting slogans, blame, and excuses. A Government more obsessed with their own jobs than obsessed with the jobs of New Zealanders who are losing theirs. A Government that wants to spend all of its time talking about the Opposition and not talking about what they are actually doing to support New Zealanders through the current crisis. A Government constantly looking backwards rather than looking ahead. A Government that\u2019s offering a warped nostalgia rather than a future for New Zealanders to get excited about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe can do better than that, and Kiwis deserve better than that. Yes, the world can feel pretty overwhelming at the moment, but we are not powerless. We have options. We don\u2019t just have to sit tight and wait for other things to happen around the world and see how they affect us. We can shape our own future. We have choices and we have opportunities. From all of the chaos that is happening around the world at the moment, there are opportunities for New Zealand. Renewable energy is a huge opportunity for New Zealand\u2014an opportunity with jobs, an opportunity for competitive advantage, an opportunity to do not what\u2019s just morally right but what\u2019s economically right as well. The rest of the world is trying to catch up when it comes to renewable energy, and our Government is going the other way. They think our energy future lies in imported liquefied gas rather than renewable energy, which we have an abundance of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ERather than focusing on building more resilience and on recognising the fact that these severe weather events that we\u2019re currently experiencing aren\u2019t just one-off events anymore but are a regular pattern, the Government is turning the other way. New Zealanders want to know that their current Government has a plan to deal with New Zealand\u2019s lack of resilience, because it\u2019s clear we do have a lack of resilience when it comes to extreme weather events. We can build a New Zealand that\u2019s far more resilient, one that has far more self-reliance, one that is independent and confident in the world, not because we are the biggest, the boldest, or the strongest, but because, as a country, we\u2019re worth listening to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMore self-reliance doesn\u2019t mean living in the past; it means embracing the future. Renewable energy, food security, these are major concerns for New Zealanders and they\u2019re hearing nothing from their current Government about those. Food security is massive. As a food-producing nation, we produce so much food for the rest of the world, and yet the closure of food manufacturers and food processors in New Zealand is making us more beholden to international supply chains at a time when they are more and more uncertain, and yet they\u2019re hearing nothing from the Government about a plan to provide food security in food-producing country like New Zealand. When we should be embracing science and innovation, and the Kiwi entrepreneurial and innovative spirit, we\u2019ve got a Government that\u2019s doing the opposite: cutting funding for science, cutting funding for research, and blocking support to the innovators\u2014the people who can grow the jobs of the future in New Zealand. A Government that, rather than bringing people together to solve the challenges that the country faces, are more intent on creating divisions for their own political purposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EHaven\u2019t we seen this? Because a Government that is divided cannot lead the country to unity. This Government is more divided than any Government that New Zealand has seen in recent history. A Government that turns a blind eye to outright racism and race-baiting and will not call that out. Well, we will call that out on this side of the House, and I will be very clear that there will be no room for racism in any Government that I lead. The world might feel overwhelming at the moment, but with that comes opportunity. We can embrace it and we have so much to look forward to. New Zealanders deserve a Government to lead us into the future with optimism\u2014they\u2019re not getting it from this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022 data-id=\u0022d604999d12d39955906181fa46c9bd41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d604999d12d39955906181fa46c9bd41\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health) (15:30)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not sure if it was ChatGPT or Copilot who wrote that speech, but clearly when he was putting it in, he said, \u201CGive me a speech which is five minutes and 30 seconds.\u201D, and it spat out one a bit long. But every single member of the Opposition was looking and saying, \u201CI could do a better speech than that that I just got from Chris Hipkins.\u201D They were all saying that. You could see it in their eyes\u2014\u201CI could deliver a better speech.\u201D\u2014particularly Willie Jackson up the front here. He knows he could deliver a better speech than something written by Copilot or ChatGPT, and, of course, it was just full of spin, with not one single word about what Labour\u2019s plan is to deal with the challenges facing New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe only thing they did: they talked about race. I find it absolutely offensive that they get up there and talk about race-baiting when they are the ones whipping up anti-migration rhetoric in this country with their opposition to the free-trade agreement with India. They should be getting onside with the free-trade agreement, which opens up jobs, opportunities, and industry here in New Zealand. That is a solution that is needed for our country, and they are sitting on their hands rather than getting on the side of New Zealanders, and at the same time whipping up anti-migration rhetoric in our country, which I find frankly appalling, and I know that many, many New Zealanders do, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Labour Party does have one policy, and I do think it\u2019s worth highlighting what their one policy is: it is a capital gains tax on New Zealanders\u2014capital gains tax. Their only policy that they\u2019ve so far announced is a capital gains tax on New Zealand. Of course, it fits within their frame. They have a three-point plan: tax, spend, borrow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, they\u2019ve only announced the tax part so far, but of course we know there\u2019s more coming on that front, because last week, Labour\u2019s tax spokesperson, Dr Deborah Russell\u2014who, of course, we remember her doctorate is in taxation; that\u2019s the type of doctor she is\u2014has spent her career lecturing university students on ever more creative ways to tax New Zealanders more. She was asked six times whether her capital gains tax goes far enough\u2014six times. Now, of course, if you listen to Chris Hipkins on the radio, he goes, \u201COh no, it\u2019s a very confined policy.\u201D Well, six times she refused to answer the question about whether it goes far enough, and, of course, we know what happens to Labour Party taxes: they grow\u2014they grow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThen we had Kieran McAnulty, their campaign chair, saying, \u201CNo, no, no\u2014no other taxes.\u201D Very reassuring, except, in the very same week, Ginny Andersen popped up and refused to rule out changes to the brightline tests. She refused to rule out changes to interest deductibility. The same party in the same week, and entirely different positions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThen, when you thought you\u2019d just about had enough of Dr Deborah Russell, she popped back up in another interview and let slip\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CWell, of course we\u2019ll have more tax policy.\u201D Of course they will, because it\u2019s part of their three-point plan for the election: tax, borrow, spend. That\u2019s the same party, and that\u2019s what they do to everything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOf course, this all came in response to their mates at the Council of Trade Unions (CTU), who put out\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf22a832d14a4c99ab5dfd16e24446e5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea22a4856f331819bc27fcb4520ed06d\u0022\u003ERima Nakhle\u003C/span\u003E: Best friends.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbe0082d00d5104ecec6d5b7508c5584\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Their best friends, says the member for Takanini. Their policy was to have a tax rate of 50 percent on income over $150,000, a more comprehensive capital gains tax, inheritance tax, wealth tax, windfall profit tax, and higher trust taxes. Labour\u2019s tax spokesperson said, \u201CWell, of course we\u2019ll have more tax policy.\u201D, and we know who writes their tax policy: it is the CTU.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy question to the Labour Party is: who holds the pen on tax policy in the Opposition? Who\u2019s actually making the decisions? I think Kiwis deserve real, straight, non - Copilot and ChatGPT answers to the question of what a Labour Party would do if elected to Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI can tell you that on this side of the House, we are focused on reducing taxes for hard-working New Zealanders. We provided tax relief in the 2024 Budget, for the first time in 14 years. We didn\u2019t put in place the 12c increase in tax on fuel, which Labour would have done if they were elected in 2023. We axed the Auckland Regional Fuel Tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOf course, Labour has learnt nothing in Opposition and nothing from their time in Government. If they are elected in November, they will go back to their same old policies of tax, borrow, spend. New Zealanders know better, and that\u2019s why they\u2019ll re-elect National in November. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225e65b51223cf4eb8aa02a982d92f8959\u0022 data-id=\u00221a044be7b47993162382e092f4b2eac7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e65b51223cf4eb8aa02a982d92f8959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a044be7b47993162382e092f4b2eac7\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green) (15:35)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I hope you\u2019re having a good day. \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EToit\u016B Te Tiriti\u003C/span\u003E to you, Mr Speaker, and to all of us here in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA mature conversation is really the opportunity that, actually, all politicians could be taking right now. At the front of a mature conversation is really understanding the beautiful vision, in fact, that Te Tiriti always has been and always is, and that the vision for mana motuhake and tino rangatira\u2014self-determination for iwi and hap\u016B\u2014actually is essential to creating an Aotearoa where we have social justice; where everyone has what they need to live good lives; where we are protecting te taiao and our environment, because she is our mother; where we are creating a future planet that is stable for our mokopuna, because we have obligations to at least the seven generations ahead; and where we are upholding the mana and dignity of every single one of us because that is inherent to te ao M\u0101ori, and that our own mana relies on us upholding the mana of all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThese are longstanding, well-established principles and understandings of Te Tiriti. They always have been, and they always will be, and it is our communities every single day, M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori\u2014tangata Tiriti\u2014working together for the better of their communities and people, who show that leadership. They show us every single day\u2014generations now, in fact\u2014everyday examples of care and manaaki and aroha, of ensuring that people are living quality lives with dignity, of working out together how to address some of our most pressing crises and issues: how to save the local lakes by working together with our shared knowledge, how to improve the health of water by working together with indigenous m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori expertise and knowledge, and how to ensure that we can properly house our people and feed our people and have healthcare that serves all of our people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat is what Te Tiriti offers, and that is why the Greens are not surprised but are absolutely outraged at the further attacks that this Government is bringing in by way of trying to weaken the legal standing of Tiriti clauses across legislation. It is pure ideology and National members actually know it is wrong, and that\u2019s why they are quietly trying to go about it, because they themselves even understand that that is a backward step. It flies in the face of generations of the maturing and evolving understanding that Te Tiriti has always been about people taking the best possible care of each other. Instead, it is being used and weaponised to cause division and to create further attack against M\u0101ori people, M\u0101ori communities, and against Te Tiriti, which the Greens are proud to stand behind as the founding document of our nation and, more specifically, its upholding of the tino rangatiratanga of iwi and hap\u016B over our people, our lands, our treasures, and our resources. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EActually, we signed up to it to work in proper partnership with the Crown to achieve quality lives for all, and then this Government, with its coalition partners, is instead choosing to use their resource and energy to focus on further division and on trying to make out that Te Tiriti is something that it isn\u2019t. While we\u2019re in the middle of a war and a fossil fuel crisis, and having people literally swimming in the streets of Wellington, and people going without housing and kai and healthcare, this is what they choose to focus their energy on? While at the same time, their own experts have advised against taking this forward with this process, which has never thought to properly engage and work with the very M\u0101ori who will be impacted by these legislative clawbacks and weakening of Tiriti responsibilities and obligations. This is where they are choosing to put their focus? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Prime Minister needs to answer as to why he is continuing to give any credence and energy to weakening Te Tiriti when all that we are seeing every single day is marae around the country constantly stepping up first and without question to look after everybody, and they can do it quickly because they have been set up for centuries to immediately step into gear and take care of the masses, no matter who they are. In the face of all of that example of Te Tiriti beauty, this Government is choosing to create hate. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb122c538363c6b12ee58b2dd98d96c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb122c538363c6b12ee58b2dd98d96c4\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori) (15:40)\u003C/span\u003E: \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003ET\u0113n\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka\u003C/span\u003E. I want to talk about the last 511 days of this chaotic coalition and the crisis plus crisis plus crisis that it seems to have put Aotearoa in. It\u2019s made me extremely angry and really sad, and I think what we need to be really clear about here is that what we have seen is a Government that has dismantled every kaupapa, every solution, everything that can be part of a growing, positive Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe shouldn\u2019t take away from what it is. We have a country at the moment experiencing three major crises: a cost of living crisis, a fuel crisis, and a resilient climate crisis. And what have we got? We\u2019ve got a Government that\u2019s continued to attack and to deny what exactly it is that is taking down everyday New Zealanders\u2014everyday wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi. And what do we see this Government do during this crisis? What do we see it does? Does it come up with solutions to help look after those women that it took equity funding from? Does it sit there and talk about those that are having hauora aspects equities? Does it sit there and help the working wh\u0101nau that have been pushed back the harder they work? Does it sit there and address our reo? No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat does it do during a fuel crisis? Does it sit there and give a plan so that our wh\u0101nau know how they\u2019re going to cope; how our kaum\u0101tua can choose to go between \u201CI\u2019m going to get kai.\u201D and \u201CI\u2019m going to travel to the GP.\u201D? Does it sit there and help our wh\u0101nau who have to drop off their tamariki to kura? Does it sit there and help our wh\u0101nau who have to sit there and go out and do their jobs every day, based on fuel they can\u2019t afford? No. It sits there and continues to make big profit from these fuel taxes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve got a climate crisis\u2014a resilient climate crisis. We literally have seen cars on fences, and people hugely affected and fatally affected. What does it do? I\u2019ll tell you what this Government does in its 199 days left that it has to govern: it starts a culture war, because that is exactly what the playbook of Trumpism does. What does he do? We\u2019ve got Epstein files. What does he do? Start a war. What does this Government do? Starts a war on Te Tiriti\u2014slyly, quietly, without any integrity. For years and years, we have seen legal experts, our leaders\u2014our iwi leaders, our hap\u016B leaders\u2014go into urgency after urgency after urgency to hear our Te Tiriti claims. But no, what does this Government do in 511 days? It pretends it doesn\u2019t have to honour Te Tiriti. It pretends it doesn\u2019t exist, and that is the crisis that we\u2019re dealing with here. A Government that continues to show it\u2019s not only run dry of fuel; it\u2019s run dry of solutions, and so it deflects. It sits there and reminds people what we don\u2019t agree on. It sits there and deflects from the whole fact they\u2019ve run dry of solutions for the cost of living. They are hurting our wh\u0101nau in a way that they\u2019ve never been hurt before. In Te Tai Hau\u0101uru, we have food banks that are 60 percent increased\u2014increased. We have wh\u0101nau that are making decisions on whether to eat or whether to be able to go to the hospital. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat are we dealing with here? We\u2019ve got a country governed by a Government that doesn\u2019t care about its people, so what does it do? It rage-baits. It goes out and creates a culture war. And we continue\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0360e260514efb49135dc7081348cfe\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: You would never do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294a3e404291a6e32876d197008b60ea8\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER\u003C/span\u003E: And we hear the deflection over there. We continue to hear\u2014let me remind our wh\u0101nau what, in 511 days, this Government did. It cut M\u0101ori housing by $624 million; Te Ahu o te Reo M\u0101ori\u2014it cut our reo by $30 million; kaupapa M\u0101ori education by $36 million; Whakaata M\u0101ori by $10 million; iwi M\u0101ori radio, Wh\u0101nau Ora\u2014all being cut, all at risk. Why? Not because it has an affinity with M\u0101ori or cares about Te Tiriti\u2014$1 billion in 511 days. This Government has taken us back 60 years\u201460 years. I want to remind our wh\u0101nau\u2014and we don\u2019t even want to talk about the healthcare situation; we don\u2019t even want to go there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to remind our wh\u0101nau: we have 199 days to get together to fight against what it is that this Government is doing to us, and let me tell you, we have the power to constitutionally protect Te Tiriti. We have the power to get this Government out, but it will require that we have the power to turn up, to get on the M\u0101ori roll, and to make sure you participate, because they\u2019re counting on us not mobilising.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFor M\u0101ori, oneness is not sameness, but I tell you one thing that we\u2019re really great at is coming together and protecting our Tiriti. That is my call to action for all of us out there who can no longer handle the pain that this Government has inflicted on us:511 days of pain. We\u2019ve got 199 days to get them out. We have the power, wh\u0101nau. We have the ability to do that. Take it seriously, take people with you, and get them out now. \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EKia ora r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u0022b499de778e550ace87058984a170f016\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b499de778e550ace87058984a170f016\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice) (15:46)\u003C/span\u003E: Two years ago, the people of New Zealand made the right decision to get rid of that Labour Government that was hopeless and had overcooked the stimulus, driven up $100 billion of extra debt, driven up inflation, including 30 percent house price inflation in one year, and they talk about housing affordability. They drove up house prices 30 percent in one year, and then, as a \u201CSurprise, surprise!\u201D, there were higher interest rates that made New Zealanders struggle. At the same time, we had a rise in crime, mainly driven by their culture of excuses\u2014it wasn\u2019t your fault if you bashed somebody over the head; it was society\u2019s fault. It was somebody else\u2019s fault.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESurprise, surprise, we had a rise in crime and we had very poor educational outcomes, including in maths, which we\u2019ve just had a beautiful example of with the previous speaker talking about 511 days of this Government. I think you\u2019ll find that we\u2019ve been in more than 511 days. I think it\u2019s 877, according to Copilot. We\u2019re nearly up to three years in Government. I\u2019d just encourage the member to think about that a bit more carefully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat have we done in two years, under the great leadership of the Prime Minister, the Rt Hon Christopher Luxon? What we\u2019ve achieved: we\u2019ve achieved a path back to surplus, so we\u2019re not adding to our debt. We\u2019ve focused on real changes to bring about growth in our economy, such as the changes to the Resource Management Act; such as the infrastructure; such as changing the tax investment rules to encourage businesses to invest and get immediate relief from their taxes; and such as the India free-trade agreement that our good friend Todd McClay\u2019s going to be signing in the next few days. Five million people trading with 1.4 billion people\u2014what an opportunity that is. It also includes extra tax relief so that there\u2019s more money in New Zealanders\u2019 pockets. And\u2014what\u2019s that? The disciplined spending that we\u2019ve had has led to a reduction in inflation and a reduction in interest rates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreat progress has been made\u2014great progress has been made. I don\u2019t like to be claiming any credit, because there\u2019s been great work from Mark Mitchell and a whole host of colleagues in restoring law and order. We\u2019ve had a reduction of 49,000 fewer victims of violent crime in the past two years since we\u2019ve taken over in power. What an amazing transformation that\u2019s been, as well as the changes in education. So yes, we\u2019re in a time of global challenges and global uncertainty, but in six months\u2019 time, New Zealanders will have to decide whether they continue on with the progress that has been made over the last 2\u00BD years to restore our country and get ourselves back in shape, or do we return to the mob that got us into the strife that we had 2\u00BD years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe point I would make to people tuning in on their crystal sets this afternoon would be to say, has anything changed on the other side? Has Chris Hipkins changed in the last 2\u00BD years and my answer to that is absolutely not. As the economic maestro Simeon Brown has pointed out, their policy can be distilled into three words: spend, tax, borrow\u2014and the combination of those three things. If you need to spend more, well, you tax more, and so the only thing that they\u2019ve come up with is the capital gains tax. They\u2019re also floating, I\u2019ve heard, a windfall tax, so just think about that. They will be taxing the feijoas that fall off your tree, because they\u2019re so desperate. Such is their lust for your money that they will go anywhere to get more taxes out of our people, and they will continue to borrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EApart from this capital gains tax, there have been no proposals from Labour in 2\u00BD years. I remember about a year and a half before the previous election, as an Opposition spokesperson, I basically couldn\u2019t open my mouth when talking to the media without those members saying, \u201CI\u2019m not listening to you until you say what you\u2019re going to do. What is your policy, Mr Goldsmith?\u201D That was a consistent message for 18 months. I couldn\u2019t say anything without coming up with proposals, and we had serious proposals all lined up a year and a half before the elections. We were cranking stuff out. This mob have come up with nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EYes, there needs to be a contest between the centre-right\u2014this Government\u2014and a proposed Labour - Greens - M\u0101ori Party coalition, and I\u2019m very confident that we will win, but it\u2019s a very important matter for this country. In the meantime, of course there will be competition between the three parties on the centre-right. My simple message to anybody tuning in today is that if you want to be sure of having a centre-right Government leading this country after the election, you\u2019ve got to vote for National because anybody else is a bit of a risk. I wouldn\u2019t say that it\u2019s a terrible risk, but there is a bit of a risk, and if you want to be sure of a centre-right Government, you\u2019ve got to vote for National.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8447e070908aecf436db0e27ec0ae69\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8447e070908aecf436db0e27ec0ae69\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour) (15:51)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. It was interesting to hear that speech by the Minister of Justice, going over all of the different things that he wanted to discuss. One significant piece of work that he has been secretly working on was conveniently omitted from the list of policies that the Government has been focused on, and that is the work that the Government has covertly been doing to undermine existing legislation, which includes provisions with relation to the Treaty of Waitangi, or Te Tiriti o Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI was lucky enough to grow up in a New Zealand during a time that is known as the M\u0101ori renaissance. That was a period of time where you could go to school, you could learn te reo M\u0101ori, you could learn about New Zealand history, you could learn about Te Tiriti o Waitangi, and, whether you were M\u0101ori or P\u0101keh\u0101, no matter where your ancestors came from, you could learn about our history, and you could look towards a future of how we could grow together as a nation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt has been incredibly disappointing for everyone who has grown up in that period of time to hear the rhetoric from the Government, to see this coalition Government voting for a Treaty principles bill, and to then learn that not only was that bill\u2014which they blamed on the ACT Party\u2014part of their work to undermine the Treaty of Waitangi in New Zealand but they are secretly looking through every other piece of legislation in this country with a Treaty clause to see how they can weaken that provision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, the Treaty of Waitangi is not a document which relates only to historical grievances. The Treaty of Waitangi\u2014Te Tiriti o Waitangi\u2014is a living document that can only be a living document if there are provisions within our legislation that look to enforce it. What the Government is doing, through Paul Goldsmith\u2014who purports to have a background as a historian\u2014is shamelessly going through and undermining every single document. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhy are they doing that? They say in their policy proposal that it is because they do not think that when these policies were put into place\u2014when they were passed democratically by this Parliament\u2014they had robust and detailed Treaty policy analysis. What does the Government do in response to that? It decides to go through a process which, by its own regulatory impact statement, states that it has not had enough time to go through the detail of what the impacts would be, that there has been no robust analysis, and that there has been no in-depth look at what the policy of this would be, but the Ministry of Justice itself says that there is a risk through their work that it will create further division between M\u0101ori and P\u0101keh\u0101, between M\u0101ori and Crown relations. This is an absolutely shameful piece of work that they have decided to go ahead with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat is the impact of that going to be? We know that many, many of the principles that are set out in legislation do important things like protecting the environment. The removal of this, we fear, may lead to greater environmental degradation because there isn\u2019t a Treaty clause which is strong enough to protect that from happening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard a lot from the other side about what policies Labour stands for, and I can tell you that Labour does not stand for this. When we get elected at the end of this year, we will either repeal this or we will stop this work because we know that Te Tiriti o Waitangi is one of the founding documents of New Zealand. It has constitutional importance for this country. It is important for M\u0101ori\u2014yes\u2014and it is important for P\u0101keh\u0101, too. It is important for everyone in this country, and we will not take this Government\u2019s trying in secret to undermine this very foundational document in up to 40 different pieces of legislation where we see Treaty principles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis is of huge importance to New Zealand, and we have to ask: why are they actually focusing on this? We know that cost of living is the most important issue to New Zealanders. New Zealanders are not focused on changes to Te Tiriti provisions, and neither should the Government be. They are clearly desperate to do anything to take away from showing that they, in fact, have not done anything to fix the cost of living; in fact, they\u2019ve made it worse. National members are too busy fighting with themselves and doing covert, secret operations to remove Treaty clauses to actually focus on what matters to New Zealanders, which is having jobs\u2014the fact that people can actually go to work\u2014warm homes, healthcare, and real action on the cost of living. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022103925b6f9e64afea9688613b42f53f5\u0022 data-id=\u00226d11577e149738a2e23d5e0b9521f727\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022103925b6f9e64afea9688613b42f53f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d11577e149738a2e23d5e0b9521f727\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (Minister for Emergency Management and Recovery) (15:56)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I just thought that I\u2019d take the opportunity with the recent Cyclone Vaianu and the weather events that we have faced, although I\u2019m not going to go back past December and Christmas-time because we\u2019ve had a significant amount of weather events that have hit us as a country in the last three or four months. I just wanted to take this opportunity to firstly acknowledge all of those responsible who have stepped up to actually respond to these events and, of course, also the people that we\u2019ve lost and their families and their loved ones and their communities, and I\u2019ll come to that a bit later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBasically, I want to start with acknowledging in this House the MPs who I work very closely with: Camilla Belich, who just spoke, who in my view has been an outstanding Opposition spokesperson for emergency management, and she has recently been promoted into the justice spokesperson role. You\u2019ve been outstanding working with me. You often turn up to these events. You\u2019ve taken it really seriously, working on the legislation as well, and I want to thank you and acknowledge you for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFrancisco Hernandez\u2014who is not in the House\u2014for the Greens has taken a really responsible approach to our emergency management in this country, as well. I want to acknowledge him and the work that he\u2019s done on the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u2014she will hate me acknowledging her, but the fact of the matter is that when we have these events, we work together for what is best for the country. There are two things that I believe this Parliament should always be united on: one is national security and the other one is emergency management. We do have a good working relationship. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge Mark Patterson from New Zealand First\u2014who is in the House\u2014and just say that it is not only the leadership and the support you provide to the rural communities, but Mark is someone that turns up to these events as well, and is always there and is always available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAndrew Hoggard\u2014who isn\u2019t in the House\u2014from the ACT Party, is exactly the same. He is deeply connected, especially to our rural communities, and is always there and present and ready to assist and provide any support that he can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhen I first became Minister, I had several reports, with the most recent one being from Sir Jerry Mateparae in relation to Cyclone Gabrielle, where he highlighted that one of the issues that we face inside our emergency management ecosystem in this country was what was called an optimism bias and, in sort of Kiwi terms, a \u201CShe\u2019ll be right.\u201D attitude. That was one of the things that was highlighted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOne of the others was the fact that we didn\u2019t have clear command and control. We had our heroes step up to do the work but they didn\u2019t really know where the information was coming from, where they could feed it, or where they were going to get it from. We fixed that with a lot of work with the current bill that is going through the House, and I thank all of those people that are working on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EObviously, I want to acknowledge my own National Emergency Management Agency (NEMA) team. They have put an enormous amount of effort in the last couple of years into the professionalisation of the service. They have had a constant cadence of work of dealing with this. They\u2019re not always visible, our people out on the ground. Our NEMA people obviously are. They do incredibly hard work and I want to thank and acknowledge them for what they do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETo our mayors, to our chief executives, to our Civil Defence Emergency Management teams, the same. Thank you for the vigilance, thank you for the focus, thank you for taking these events seriously and for being prepared to make decisions early and not waiting until it\u2019s too late, not waiting until you\u2019re trying to play catch-up and you risk losing the confidence of the people that you serve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETo our first responders; we have world-class first responders in police, Fire and Emergency New Zealand, St John\u2019s, Wellington Free Ambulance, and our surf lifesavers, who are really stepping up and really getting involved with the likes of *Swift Water Rescue teams.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETo iwi and hap\u016B, thank you. You are outstanding partners in these events. You are very good at emergency management. I just want to address one point, and that is the Prime Minister, who is often on the ground with me at these events, recognised the importance of being able to actually make it much easier for marae to replenish supplies and has removed a lot of the red tape and compliance and went to a high-trust model so that we can do that. That has made a fundamental difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETo our rural sector, to our rural trusts that stand up, to our communities\u2014and I keep saying it, and I\u2019ll say it again and again: the best way and the strongest way we can have a response to these events which leads to a much stronger and better recovery is whole-of-society, everyone working together, everyone has got some skin in the game and can take good personal decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI just wanted to take the opportunity to be able to say thank you. Thank you to everyone who has been involved and put the effort in over the last three or four months. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022 data-id=\u002286cea9e01563f4a68216b74380807a97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286cea9e01563f4a68216b74380807a97\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri) (16:01)\u003C/span\u003E: I want to talk about seniors, because seniors are really hurting right now. They\u2019re hurting in a cost of living crisis. They have had no fuel relief because they\u2019re not in that thin wedge of 150,000 New Zealanders who qualify, and yet they rely on fuel, many times, to have connection in the community. We heard from Simeon Brown today about tax relief. Many of the seniors got as much as $2.15 a week in the Government\u2019s tax package. They face a bleak winter of coldness, many of them in cold, isolated houses, and food prices are up around 9 percent since this Government took office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow they\u2019re hurting even more, because the Government is failing to respond to them in terms of the retirement villages law that they are planning to bring into the House. I am so thrilled to see that Consumer NZ is supporting, effectively, my bill and has launched a campaign today\u2014which I would encourage everybody to get online and have a look at\u2014saying that it is time that the Government actually did right by seniors and by retirement village residents and made sure that there were fair, mandated repayment times of three months, with 10 percent within five working days. Now, that exactly mirrors my bill. It\u2019s what I\u2019ve been asking for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn fact, if the Government had taken up the opportunity to support or even adopt my bill, we would not be here today arguing over this point. But it is great to see that Consumer NZ has. They\u2019re looking for 65,000 signatures. They already know that eight in 10 New Zealanders support the repayment times to be within three months and with some immediate money upfront. In fact, Jon Duffy, the chief executive of Consumer NZ, has described the current situation as ludicrous and the proposals from the Government as unfair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat\u2019s happening at the moment is it\u2019s costing around $700,000 cash for somebody to move into a retirement village, and they get about 30 percent taken off immediately. They only get their capital repayment, depending on how long they\u2019ve stayed in there and when they exit, when the right to occupy is on-sold. Many of them\u2014in fact, the majority\u2014do not get a capital gain, and therefore the operator wins on every level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, the Government is proposing to change this, after enormous pressure from the Retirement Village Residents Association, and from quite a lot of pressure from myself and from many wonderful residents up and down the country who\u2019ve been writing to MPs. They\u2019ve finally said they\u2019re going to do something, but the proposed time that they are mandating, is 12 months, which is ludicrous\u2014as has been said by Consumer NZ\u2014and, perhaps even more unfairly, it will not apply to existing residents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI asked the Associate Minister of Housing, Tama Potaka, about this in the House yesterday, and his reasons for failing seniors were limp. He talked about the one-year mandated time-frame period as being to help operators with their liquidity. Well, when I look at the big six operators, they don\u2019t have any problem with liquidity. One of them reports in its 2025 annual report that it has $600 million worth of undrawn debt capacity\u2014in other words, that\u2019s the capacity of the retirement village residents\u2019 money\u2014but also, they have 27 percent of uncommitted arrays in stock, and also 31 percent of a contract pipeline increase. Now, that shows that they definitely have liquidity, so that argument doesn\u2019t fly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EHe also talked about sanctity of contract, but that doesn\u2019t make sense when, actually, in his own proposed legislation, he is mandating the requirement to stop fees when somebody dies or exits a village. It\u2019s abhorrent that that should even happen, but it also shows that there is an inconsistency in how he is cherry-picking the so-called sanctity of contract. He tried to say that chattels and fixtures would not be included when I asked about repairs and maintenance, but his own advisers are telling people that they will be included, so I think the Minister has shown some confusion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhen he says he talks to villagers and they support his bill, I wonder who he is speaking to. Is it the Retirement Village Residents Association, who are absolutely against the proposals, or is it the village council, which is funded by the operators? They have no mandate, no elected representatives, no credibility, and yet they were busy contacting media last night, trying to make sure that they could be seen to be purporting the views of village residents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIf you\u2019re in the eight out of 10 New Zealanders who are supporting this, get online, make sure you sign that petition, and let\u2019s do right by our seniors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002271d8acf3a6f0476999f9d03b4ae70e7d\u0022 data-id=\u002218099fa22bc1a37a8247a43a7e4efefb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271d8acf3a6f0476999f9d03b4ae70e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218099fa22bc1a37a8247a43a7e4efefb\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources) (16:06)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. This is a short but important speech about the politics of delivery:$20 million - odd dedicated in a rapid period of time to recommission, restore, and save the legacy of Marsden Point by creating up to 100 million litres of storage for fuel in the midst of geopolitically driven uncertainty worsening our prospects for fuel certainty in New Zealand. I tell New Zealanders and I tell the Labour Party: I didn\u2019t enter into long-term seances. Our Government made a rapid decision, dedicated capital, and, within eight weeks, New Zealand will have this additional fuel storage capacity either for an additional buffer or, in time, for it to be used by the fuel companies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOf course, the fuel companies need to bear in mind that in the law, if they do not abide by the restrictions\u2014and I heard the member from the Opposition, the Hon Dr Megan Woods, say, \u201CAre we going to lift immediately the burden of obligation upon them to store more fuel in New Zealand?\u201D At this stage, we\u2019re taking them at their word, but fuel companies\u2019 integrity depends on quality information, timely information. That is a key portion of the understanding that New Zealanders have with this particular model of just-in-time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOf course, I don\u2019t want to just champion my efforts at Marsden Point and reviving that once proud and magnificent asset which slipped from our grasp. I also have to move on to the $200 million dedicated to accelerating the delivery of gas in the short term. Now, it was a fateful and very bleak day when Jacinda Ardern made her captain\u2019s call and condemned the oil and gas industry to a deep-freeze virtual type of termination. It took our Government to come, change the law, reverse that juvenile climate-riddled type of analysis, and provide an opportunity for investors to help New Zealand assume a common-sense and defensible position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EYou cannot maintain electricity without fossil fuels, whether it\u2019s access to coal, whether it\u2019s access to gas. It\u2019s absurd that Kiwis have mountains of coal under their feet in New Zealand, yet we are relying on Indonesian coal. Wait\u2014wait, that is going to change. Obviously, these matters will be keenly contested at the next election, and I look forward to that fight. Over $100 million dedicated to thermal energy. I think the trick that was missed by Jacinda Ardern was that, when she cancelled the oil and gas industry, she dedicated nothing to the rapid development of an alternative source of electricity to keep the price of electricity affordable in New Zealand. She did nothing. She hoped that stardust\u2014she hoped that forlorn hope\u2014would provide a solution to Kiwi businesses, and what do we have now? A host of firms in \u201CStrugglers Gully\u201D, unable to cope with the escalation of fuel prices associated with gas and looking for assistance to transition to other sources\u2014i.e., electricity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat have I said: $100 million of actual delivery in super-critical minerals. Now, I have to acknowledge the member of the Opposition, the Hon Dr Megan Woods, who did contribute, as science Minister, a relatively modest sum of money, and as reflects my rhetorical approach to life, I turbocharged it. That means well over $100 million to accelerate the delivery of geothermal energy. Now, what about the super critical minerals? Super-critical minerals are key to our future. You cannot have a net zero journey without being mineral rich. We have them in New Zealand, we\u2019re going to use them, and if the opportunity arises and we can do that in association with the United States, Japan, Korea, and other countries, I\u2019ll do it in a nanosecond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b7cff05e64f346e68983b2fdbfba3ad8\u0022 data-id=\u002297ed097f2d6ca5e8b906007b7f3b7299\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b7cff05e64f346e68983b2fdbfba3ad8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297ed097f2d6ca5e8b906007b7f3b7299\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote) (16:11)\u003C/span\u003E: We are witnessing one of the most significant oil shocks in our lifetimes, and the role of this Government, and our focus, is to limit the economic impacts of this crisis for New Zealand people. That is primarily through fuel and prices,  we\u2019ve announced some targeted, timely, and temporary support for 143,000 middle and working class New Zealanders out there. We\u2019ve recently announced some fuel relief for people in rural areas and our schools. We\u2019ve got a fuel response plan, of which we\u2019re currently in phase one. We\u2019ve got a ministerial supply chain group that\u2019s coordinating across ministries on the Government\u2019s response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOur Minister of Finance, Nicola Willis, has requested the US Government to provide fuel tanks right here in the Pacific, we\u2019ve got the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority out there actually driving really positive messaging around how to save more for New Zealanders, and we\u2019ve got diplomatic cooperation through our Prime Minister, who is working with the heads of State of other countries to make sure we are top of the queue. The message is that we will come through this as a country. Through a measured, targeted response, we will come through this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe choice at this year\u2019s election is clear: a strong and stable coalition or a tax, spend, and borrow Labour - Greens - Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori coalition; a choice between National, a party of delivery, or Labour, the party who hasn\u2019t released any significant policy to date and whose main strategy is to do nothing, say nothing, and hope and pray that gets them across the line; a choice between Christopher Luxon, a person who has the skills and economic credibility to lead this country to better days, or Chris Hipkins, a person whose only job has been in politics and who has managed, basically, an \u201CF\u201D in every portfolio he has managed. Let\u2019s go through his performance. Police: under his watch, crime went up. The Public Service: numbers went up. Education: outcomes went down. COVID-19: he locked New Zealanders out of this country. As PM, we all know what happened. He got booted out loud and clear in 2023, and that is just his professional performance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFor National, we know we\u2019ve got much to do to communicate our plans and policies to New Zealanders, but we know that the majority of Kiwis back National\u2019s core values: personal responsibility, private enterprise, small and limited Government, and strong families. My message to Kiwis up and down this country is this: if you reject socialism and believe in our values, back National at this year\u2019s election. Our plan is simple: we\u2019ve got to get us through this economic crisis by limiting the impacts on New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf22a832d14a4c99ab5dfd16e24446e5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222061eda4a94e1257d6b8db1b1819872e\u0022\u003ERima Nakhle\u003C/span\u003E: Being responsible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b7cff05e64f346e68983b2fdbfba3ad8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b36cff9b85229a13f149492ea5837857\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re going to be doing so, as Rima Nakhle said, in a responsible, fiscally prudent way. We\u2019re not going back to the days of spending, borrowing, and raking up New Zealand\u2019s debt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s all about the economy, powering up the economy through Resource Management Act reform, which Minister Chris Bishop is doing a great job with. We\u2019ve got education reform\u2014isn\u2019t Erica Stanford doing a great job? Core education reform. We\u2019ve got Nicola Willis making sure we actually get back to surplus, because without that, your kids and our kids have no future in this country. We\u2019ve got Minister Simeon Brown, who is doing a great job of turning our healthcare system around. At the helm of this is our Prime Minister, Christopher Luxon, who\u2019s knitting together three different coalition partners and knitting together a broad coalition of National MPs, getting us moving in one simple direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m excited about this year\u2019s campaign. I am really excited about 7 November. We\u2019ve got to back National to make sure we get a better, brighter future for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a30b7d60a03452cb9b736efc6896cdb\u0022 data-id=\u002294e424fa6832f8b1d9a7f62f6c7f4c53\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a30b7d60a03452cb9b736efc6896cdb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294e424fa6832f8b1d9a7f62f6c7f4c53\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (ACT) (16:16)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m really excited about next week, because the New Zealand - India free-trade agreement is going to be signed on Monday. It is not something to be feared; it is an opportunity to be seized, because it is going to give us access to 1.5 billion people. Imagine the opportunities for our farmers, exporters, and manufacturers. We cannot replicate that scale here in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat does that mean? That means real economic growth. That means higher-paying jobs. That means more money coming into New Zealand. But, despite all these things, there are some members who are trying to spread fear about this free-trade agreement.  This is nothing new; we have been here before. I would suggest we recall that, with the China - New Zealand free-trade agreement, similar comments were made at the time. We recall the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership. There were so many protests. Some protests were really loud and fierce. What is really interesting to see is that some members who took part in those protests, are still members of this House. Do we hear anything from them now? No, nothing, because they have realised that those free-trade agreements were really good for New Zealand. History tells us that those people who oppose free-trade agreements are shortsighted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t intend to make this speech about immigration, because immigration is not a major component of this free-trade agreement, but I must say this: I hear again and again\u2014that people coming from other countries, migrants coming into New Zealand, are taking away opportunities from locals. Yes, that is true: when people migrate from one place to another place, they are looking for opportunities. They are looking for better opportunities. It applies to people who migrate to New Zealand, and it applies to people who migrate out of New Zealand. But another thing is also true, and that is: when people come here, they also create opportunities for others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIf some members in this House want to reduce this very serious debate on a free-trade agreement, and on immigration policy, to butter chicken, I would say this: let\u2019s think that through in a logical manner, because it doesn\u2019t just stop at butter chicken. If you look at all the positions being filled on our farms, and if you look at all the positions being filled in processing plants, all those people who are working in supermarkets stocking shelves, we see so many migrants working in these roles. Without migrants, it will not only be butter chicken missing from people\u2019s dining tables; there will be no h\u0101ng\u012B in community events and there will be no bacon and eggs for breakfast. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMigrants are not on the sidelines of our economy; they are part of our economy, and this \u201Cbutter chicken tsunami\u201D is just a slogan. It\u2019s a slogan that has been created to do two things. One is to create fear, and the second is to grab attention. I say this to New Zealanders: don\u2019t fall into that trap. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIf I just pick one group\u2014I\u2019ll pick senior citizens\u2014I say to senior citizens: don\u2019t fall into that trap. Why? I want them to imagine for a minute, look around\u2014you know, those people who come to help them. Look at that person who comes to provide help in their house. How many times is it an immigrant face? Senior citizens, those who are in rest homes, I say to them: look around, how many of those people are migrants, those who are providing you dignity and comfort at your rest home? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI say to these people, when you turn up to hospital, how many nurses and doctors around you are migrant faces? When you had that knee or hip surgery, how many people around you\u2014those who helped you\u2014were migrant faces? When you call for a taxi because you can\u2019t drive, how many times is it a migrant face that turns up to your doorstep and takes you safely from one point to another point? Now, I want these senior citizens to imagine if these migrant faces were not there, what will their life look like?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat is why this debate on immigration policy is a serious debate and we need to do it in a respectful manner, and we know that the ACT party is going to do that. Coming back to the free-trade agreement, it\u2019s not a threat; it\u2019s an opportunity. It\u2019s up to us. The question is not if the opportunity is there or not; the question is whether we are willing to take it. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295e5473fef25b9fc1bae88ca8bb691ce\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The time for this debate has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002214a2eeee13e26a6c0df3ad1f983513fb\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221b9b4c9f8f39f6f7a22b783006eb5b25\u0022\u003EExtended Sitting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f537d6f7e9d0407792892b239af9ec7f\u0022 data-id=\u00226777373b5c61e24e05a2031d9b05d0a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f537d6f7e9d0407792892b239af9ec7f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226777373b5c61e24e05a2031d9b05d0a4\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Deputy Leader of the House) (16:21)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the sitting of the House today be extended into tomorrow morning for the remaining stages of the Appropriation (2024/25 Confirmation and Validation) Bill; the Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu Claims Settlement Bill second reading; the Online Casino Gambling Bill third reading; the Building and Construction Sector (Self-certification by Plumbers and Drainlayers) Amendment Bill second reading; and the Regulatory Systems (Transport) Amendment Bill second reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5955479696b8d42fec7e98b85813dfc\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003E:\u003C/span\u003E I declare the House in committee for further consideration of the Appropriation (2024/25 Confirmation and Validation) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002250ec0ec5d6c23a36121f207fdf84479c\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002216a72146f61b403acad1d0234bbf7f37\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2024/25 Confirmation and Validation) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002278541475470a3803a99027e4866c563a\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u2014Annual Review Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000448\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 21 April.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022 data-id=\u00226c8694d156e78e8ef4f5e8f50a6fdf09\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c8694d156e78e8ef4f5e8f50a6fdf09\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor) (16:22)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee for further consideration of the Appropriation (2024/25 Confirmation and Validation) Bill. This is the debate on the financial position of the Government and the annual reviews of departments, Officers of Parliament, Crown entities, public organisations, and State enterprises, as reported on by select committees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere are four hours and 39 minutes remaining in this debate. T\u0101kuta Ferris has transferred his remaining five minutes to the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand. The remaining times for each party are as follows: New Zealand National has one hour and 25 minutes; New Zealand Labour has one hour and 26 minutes; the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand has 40 minutes; ACT New Zealand has 34 minutes; New Zealand First has 32 minutes; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori has 17 minutes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFollowing a Business Committee determination, the annual review debate will be arranged by portfolio rather than sector. Specific Ministers will be available each day to respond to specific portfolios. The Government has indicated that the Minister for Energy, the Minister for Social Development and Employment, the Minister for the Environment, the Minister of Climate Change, the Minister for Pacific Peoples, and the Minister for M\u0101ori Development will be available today to respond to members\u2019 questions. Each debate will be led off by the chairperson or another member of the committee that considered annual reviews most closely related to the Minister\u2019s portfolios. The Minister for Energy will be here until 5.00 p.m. to respond to member\u2019s questions. It is also my understanding that Minister will be available later this evening from 9.00 p.m. to 9.20 p.m. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOnce again, the question is that the report of the Financial and Expenditure Committee on the annual financial statements of the Government for the 2024-25 financial year be noted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221a183fc0a3214ecb704f36e09ea2ed51\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u2014Annual Review Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u00222735512d111badd729f2409f71d3ac0d\u0022\u003EEnergy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a30b7d60a03452cb9b736efc6896cdb\u0022 data-id=\u00226e35fa214b7b0358a4f4c7455bcd37db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a30b7d60a03452cb9b736efc6896cdb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e35fa214b7b0358a4f4c7455bcd37db\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (Chairperson of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee) (16:24)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. As the chair of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, I am very happy to open this debate and report to the committee that the select committee worked really hard and scrutinised the energy portfolio. The discussion and the scrutiny revolved around delivering energy security and value for resources. We discussed making energy more affordable; we discussed investment and renewable energy. The Ministry for Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) told us that on several key issues to drive energy costs down, they were working on many, many measures. They also talked about the electricity market performance review which happened earlier in 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe also talked about giving consumers more power, and MBIE in the select committee told us that to give consumers better ability to control their own costs, they were working on various measures. Examples included removing the need for consents for rooftop solar, developing a consumer data right for electricity, and working with the Electricity Authority so consumers are rewarded better when they feed energy back into the grid. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe also talked about dry-year cover. MBIE told us that they were setting up a regulatory regime to ensure that the energy sector is able to cover a dry year. Along with these topics, we also discussed the efficacy of energy initiatives and funding. Thank you, Mr Chair, and I really look forward to this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5067664d699a3967437e40918782da6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5067664d699a3967437e40918782da6\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram) (16:26)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. The energy and the plans that we as a country have around energy sit at the heart of who we need to be as a nation. It drives our economy, it creates jobs, and it underlies industry. It also sits at the heart of our wellbeing as a country. Having well-heated, well-insulated homes means a healthier population, so examining this appropriation is critically important, not only for understanding our health and wellbeing but understanding our economic health and wellbeing. Our energy system exists to support both its citizens and its industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a number of questions that will cut across both the Minister and the Associate Minister, given the divide that sits in this portfolio. I will start with some questions around fuel and the fuel plan that the Government has in place. This afternoon, we heard from the Associate Minister for Energy that he hasn\u2019t considered using the powers that sit within the Fuel Industry Act, as Labour amended it. He\u2019s quite content to sit at the minimum powers that that piece of legislation offers. I\u2019d like to know what plans and what would be the triggers for the Minister to start using both the additional minimum stockholding obligation powers that sit within the legislation, and also the regulatory backstop that was put in place in order for there to be more information for New Zealand businesses and New Zealand households around what the stockholdings would look like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b3410b728cb84eb295c253e2648ca0c8\u0022 data-id=\u002202cd9c94285935cbedcafb165696a2d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b3410b728cb84eb295c253e2648ca0c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202cd9c94285935cbedcafb165696a2d7\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green) (16:28)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. We\u2019ve certainly realised just how vulnerable we are to dependence on fossil fuels, given the US and Israeli warmongering this year. We\u2019ve also seen how hard people are doing it. There\u2019s been a 12\u00A0percent annual increase in power prices, and the Ministry for Business, Innovation and Employment identified the lack of backup for dry years as a key issue, and that\u2019s affecting energy affordability. We\u2019ve also heard the previous Minister give a bold claim that importing liquefied natural gas (LNG) will provide dry-year cover and will lower household electricity bills from what they might be. That\u2019s some impressive crystal-ball gazing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EWhy on earth did the Government not model the cost of an international price spike, and will the Government now reconsider spending over $1 billion of public funds on the LNG import terminal?\u2014that\u2019s one question. If the Government does not proceed with LNG, have there been any alternatives considered, and would those alternatives be the same as considered by Concept Consulting in their modelling that was released or are new alternatives being put forward? And I\u2019ll follow up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022 data-id=\u0022612196f136f9d223d78977e70b32fdef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022612196f136f9d223d78977e70b32fdef\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister for Energy) (16:29)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I thank the members for their questions. It is good to be able to have a debate in this committee of the whole House stage on energy policy, which is foundational to our economy. Energy policy is the foundation of a strong economy, and this Government has had to clean up the mess left behind by the previous Government and the decisions that they made that led to a New Zealand energy market that was less secure, less affordable, and more reliant on international coal to fire up Huntly Power Station.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThose are the decisions made by the previous Government that we have had to clean up. We\u2019ve had to remove the 2030 100 percent renewable target, which, of course, was an absolute fantasy\u2014an absolute fantasy. We\u2019ve stopped the last Government\u2019s obsession with a lake at the bottom of the South Island that wouldn\u2019t provide dry-year cover until the year 2037 at a cost of $16 billion at least, and, of course, we\u2019ve had to reverse their ghastly ban on oil and gas exploration, which, as I said, has led to us not only being more dependent on international coal, but it has also led to the deindustrialisation of New Zealand businesses across the country. That means fewer jobs. I would have thought the Labour Party, where one of the things they like talking about is jobs\u2014well, I saw a report just the other day that said their decision to ban oil and gas exploration led to the direct result of 2,000 fewer jobs in Taranaki; 2,000 fewer jobs. That is ultimately the result of the previous Government\u2019s decision, which is to deindustrialise New Zealand and reduce and remove regional jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re now making the tough decisions to ensure we have secure and affordable energy here in New Zealand. We\u2019re seeing good progress against all of those things, whether it\u2019s making sure that we get the long-term agreements in place so that T\u012Bwai smelter provides certainty to the electricity market\u2014whether it\u2019s making sure we have a strategic coal reserve so we can provide the dry-year cover that\u2019s needed; whether it\u2019s making sure we actually pass fast-track legislation which is seeing a renewables boom in this country. I just saw last week that the Waitaha run-of-river scheme in the South Island is being opposed by our Opposition\u2014the very Opposition who think we need more renewables are opposing fast-track consent for that project. Our focus is very much on affordable, secure supplies so that Kiwi households and businesses have the affordable energy that we need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere have been a number of questions about dry-year cover, and, of course, that is a critical issue that we must face, and many of the decisions we\u2019ve made have helped to address that. There, of course, have been a range of options that have been considered, and I encourage the member to go and read the Cabinet paper and the business case and all of the documentation, which looks at all of the options and all of their different costs. Ultimately, if the member is suggesting that the option he would prefer is more coal\u2014which is ultimately one of the alternatives\u2014it has twice the emissions of gas, and, ultimately, means more dependency on imported coal from Indonesia. Now, I didn\u2019t think that was the Green Party policy, but that\u2019s what it looks like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d8fdd08768655aa9fb98dd5dd16f82c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I take any further calls, obviously the scope of the debate has probably been increased somewhat by the range of the Minister\u2019s answer, so be aware of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5cbf59c5e2b47c33de27e6769cc0fbc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5cbf59c5e2b47c33de27e6769cc0fbc\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram) (16:33)\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister wanted to try and tie his answers back to Budget 2024 and 2025\u2014of course we can see that that was the Budget where a range of initiatives to support New Zealand businesses to keep people employed and people in work were scrapped. That was one of the effects of the mini-Budget, and then through into Budget 2025, which is the one that is under scrutiny. The Minister had a range of issues that he talked about, so I have several questions, and then we\u2019ll come back later in the debate\u2014I\u2019m sure the Associate Minister will welcome the Minister making him stay in the Chamber longer; the Minister in the chair will welcome the fact that he has to stay through to the latter part of this allocation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn terms of the Minister\u2019s claim that the oil and gas ban is somehow responsible for what we are currently seeing, I would like to know specifically what advice the Minister has seen about how long it takes to bring something from exploration to production; what the average period of time in New Zealand has been from a permit for exploration being issued through to be actively producing well, and whether or not ever in New Zealand\u2019s history we would have seen a well go from exploration to production in the period of time from 2018 to 2026. I\u2019m specifically asking about the advice he has received on that. I\u2019m also asking the Minister whether he received advice about the over $1 billion that was invested by the oil and gas industry into existing permits post 2018 to go looking for additional gas in the existing permits, but commercial finds were not found.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also like to ask the Minister, around the dry-year cover\u2014he said that Scott Willis should go and read the documentation. Well, I can assure the Minister, I have read all the documentation, I\u2019ve read the Cabinet paper, and what I know from the Cabinet paper is that is says that there wasn\u2019t time to produce a regulatory impact statement to adequately assess all the alternatives that were in there and that were being considered when the Government made a rash decision around liquefied natural gas (LNG). That cost-benefit analysis was not done, Minister\u2014but since you seem to have that knowledge, I\u2019d like to know exactly what the other options were and how they stacked up against LNG. Certainly, the documentation that the Government released did not show that\u2014neither the Cabinet paper nor any of the supporting information that sat around it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI wait with bated breath to hear from the Minister. Fundamentally, we have a Government that cancelled work that was under way for the most important part of New Zealand\u2019s energy system, and that is how it is that we adequately store energy for dry-year risk. The Minister will say, \u201CLake Onslow, Lake Onslow\u201D\u2014the Minister killed the New Zealand battery project. The Minister killed a programme of work that was not just looking at pumped hydro and Lake Onslow, it was looking at a range of options of how to store energy for a dry year. This was thrown out by this Minister in his first time as Minister for Energy. The Government then had to scurry and has come up with an unaffordable plan in LNG that is going to put the price of electricity up in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn terms of the plan that this Government has for giving affordability and security to New Zealanders, we still haven\u2019t seen an energy strategy; the Government has been in Government for nearly three years, and it is still yet to emerge. Businesses are continually asking for it, and in terms of helping businesses in the transition, I\u2019d like to know what the Minister thinks of Business New Zealand\u2019s plea last week for the Government to assist businesses to transition away from gas so that they can keep operating and keep people in employment after the Government slashed all the funding that Labour had put in place to assist businesses with that transition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022 data-id=\u00223edf7230b0f001f89412364074418e0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223edf7230b0f001f89412364074418e0a\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister for Energy) (16:38)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s lovely to be back as the Minister for Energy, isn\u2019t it? It\u2019s great to be back, and it\u2019s great to talk about some of the decisions I made last time, such as stopping her boondoggle of a project, Lake Onslow, in the middle of the mountains, which, of course, wasn\u2019t going to produce a single kilowatt of electricity until 2037 at the earliest, at a cost of $16 billion at a minimum. That was the solution. The Government has worked very hard, very fast, and put other options on the table, which we\u2019re now working through a process to make decisions on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019d point out to the member that making a decision this decade and implementing a solution this decade is far more important than waiting for 2037, because the impact of higher prices is having a real impact on our economy today\u2014today. The advice I\u2019ve seen is that by 2025, higher energy prices, caused by many of the decisions made by her Government, are estimated to have worsened New Zealand\u2019s trade balance by $275\u00A0million, reduced our GDP by $5.2 billion, and cut household spending by 1.65\u00A0percent. Of course, we saw the impact of what that looked like in 2024, when the sun wasn\u2019t shining, the rain wasn\u2019t falling, the wind wasn\u2019t blowing, and they killed the oil and gas industry. That is absolutely shameful\u2014shameful for our economy, shameful for Taranaki. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EShe has the audacity to stand up and say, well, how long would it take to find some gas? Well, I can tell you what: if she hadn\u2019t banned oil and gas exploration eight years ago, I\u2019m pretty sure there would have been \u201CDrill, baby, drill\u201D happening right now up and down New Zealand so we can have our own indigenous gas here in New Zealand, which, of course, she killed, making us more dependent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOf course, we saw the Leader of the Opposition, the wannabe PM, in question time and, of course, Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick, talking about how we want to be more resilient, more independent, more of these things\u2014they are the very people who have destroyed the very industry that would make us independent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why we reversed the ban on oil and gas exploration. That\u2019s why we have got rid of the chilling impact of the Lake Onslow project on the energy sector. We\u2019re now seeing our renewables boom here in New Zealand, with solar, with wind, with geothermal projects. We are seeing fast track getting more projects delivered faster than ever. That is good news. We will keep delivering; Megan Woods will keep moaning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b3410b728cb84eb295c253e2648ca0c8\u0022 data-id=\u0022c96f796a3e603bac4002398fe706b878\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b3410b728cb84eb295c253e2648ca0c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c96f796a3e603bac4002398fe706b878\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green) (16:41)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Given that the Minister for Energy has been unable to answer the question previously about why the Government did not model the cost of international spike price on liquefied natural gas, I\u2019m assuming that they don\u2019t care about the price, because consumers will pay for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe also heard in the 2024-25 annual review of the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) that MBIE is working to give consumers a better ability to control their own costs\u2014examples include removing the need for consents for rooftop solar, and working with the Electricity Authority so consumers are rewarded better when they feed energy back into the grid. But the Government rejected advice to provide financial mechanisms like a ratepayer assistance scheme and hasn\u2019t legislated for a feed-in tariff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGiven the energy crisis we\u2019re in and given the pain that households are feeling at the moment, will the Government look again at financial mechanisms to enable greater solar and battery uptake to help households with high electricity bills and/or legislate for a solar feed-in tariff? I\u2019d like to hear from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d76aa0e3e743c31dfa80d4db0aa5367b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d76aa0e3e743c31dfa80d4db0aa5367b\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram) (16:42)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Just to remind the Minister for Energy of some of the questions that are still outstanding: how does he respond to Business New Zealand\u2019s call for the Government to step up and partner with industry to help businesses that are suffering and where we\u2019re seeing businesses close down and people lose their jobs? Business New Zealand put out a very clear plan last week, and I\u2019d be very keen to understand whether the Minister has asked for advice on that and whether the Minister is planning to step up and do something to support our businesses who are struggling, or whether he\u2019s going to ignore that plea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI also would like to ask the Minister\u2014he hasn\u2019t addressed the issue that Scott Willis raised about the advice they may have had about international liquefied natural gas (LNG) prices, but given in the Cabinet paper it was laid bare that a group of Ministers were going to be making the commercial decision, rather than officials\u2014a delegated group of Ministers\u2014and given the Prime Minister\u2019s call to see whether or not this stacks up, whether the Minister still intends, as per his predecessor\u2019s plan that was laid out in the Cabinet paper, that, at a time of such global uncertainty, it will be politicians making a commercial decision about who should be the final procurer of the LNG scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022 data-id=\u00228a440df45450be14116253234e56e67e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a440df45450be14116253234e56e67e\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister for Energy) (16:44)\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I thank the members for their questions. In regards to the questions around solar, my understanding is that the Electricity Authority has made decisions in regards to feed-in tariffs, with that implementation later this year, and that, of course, is alongside the reduction in consent requirements for rooftop solar. We are seeing a significant increase in people putting rooftop solar on their houses, which does make a big difference. We\u2019ll continue to look at what other initiatives may be needed to support increases in rooftop solar and the role that that can play for households across the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn terms of the question around the war in the Middle East and the impact that has, of course that has an impact on spot prices, but, of course, as Genesis has mentioned in relation to this issue, there is what\u2019s called \u201Chedging\u201D and managing contracts, and a whole range of other financial and commercial tools which can be used to manage price.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETo answer the member who\u2019s just sat down\u2019s question, we\u2019re going through a procurement process. We\u2019ll be taking into account a range of factors for making a final decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe last question was in relation to Business New Zealand\u2019s call for subsidies and, I think, a reimagination of the Government Investment in Decarbonising Industry Fund, which, of course, was the previous Minister\u2019s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220838e5f9bac748d2a59aea595e5226a0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022634466b487cd6b4841edaec95bfee6ee\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Boondoggle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226af89eef20ad4ba0de22de3457bfa1fa\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014boondoggle. We are not in the business here of just simply subsidising businesses, but we are in the business of lowering energy prices so that we can ensure New Zealand businesses and households have access to affordable energy. That requires all of the initiatives that we\u2019ve done as a Government and more, because we need to make sure that we have an energy market which works and which is driving investment forward. I am pleased to let the member know that we have a renewables boom currently under way in this country, which is doing a fantastic job. There, of course, is much more work to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022 data-id=\u002234f13237e042e30ffa55ecf07a8c8414\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234f13237e042e30ffa55ecf07a8c8414\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori) (16:46)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. There\u2019s a couple of questions. I just want to start with the first one. Of the 30 permits that existed in the oil and minerals sector, how many were forfeited and how many were actually producing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThen I\u2019d like to go into the questions about renewable energy. On paper, it looks like we\u2019re 80 to 85 percent renewable, except electricity, except that when you go into those reports more, that excludes our reliance on the transport industry, which is still extremely fossil heavy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to push through these questions, if it\u2019s OK with the Minister for Energy, because I\u2019m aware that we have limited time as a party. How I\u2019d like the line-up of questions is: does the Minister accept the quoting of 80 percent renewable electricity masks the reality that less than half of our total energy use is actually renewable, and why is the Government relying on statistics that exclude industries such as transport? That\u2019s our biggest risk to resilience, as a country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe other thing is the cost of living contradiction. There are 140,000 homes that have taken up the loan opportunity. Is the Government happy with the fact that there are many that haven\u2019t? If we\u2019re having a renewable boom, how is it going to be accessible and how are you claiming that transition is working?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAlso, I\u2019d like to understand from the Minister what percentage of Aotearoa\u2019s renewable infrastructure is owned offshore, rather than by communities or the public? Enjoy the conversation of indigenous oil\u2014do we have indigenous solar?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe other aspect is that we talked about dry-year risk, and we have a heavy reliance on hydro. What is the Government\u2019s plan to guarantee supply during those dry years, without reverting to coal and gas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EJust a couple more\u2014bear with me. What investment is being made in regional grids to enable local generation, particularly in rural communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAre we building a system, in your mind, from a renewables perspective, where energy is generated locally but controlled and priced centrally; if so, what\u2019s the difference between the issues that we have now? Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022 data-id=\u0022c41d095e396b417ad3fb2d60b65fca77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c41d095e396b417ad3fb2d60b65fca77\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister for Energy) (16:49)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for the questions. Of course, when it comes to what percentage of our electricity comes from renewable sources, those statistics are very clearly stated. That is around the percentage of our electricity and its generation from renewable sources, and it\u2019s around 85 percent as a country. That is something we should be incredibly proud of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThere is a significant pipeline in, in particular, indigenous solar\u2014that is a big part of the pipeline. I\u2019m advised that the total forward pipeline of indigenous solar is 1,867 megawatts, which equates to 2,697 gigawatt hours of indigenous solar in the pipeline, 2026-29. I can also confirm to the committee that that indigenous solar does not need to go through the Strait of Hormuz; it comes straight from the sun to New Zealand, and there is a huge amount of it getting built under this Government. Isn\u2019t that a good thing? I hope the member would be welcoming it and celebrating it, because that\u2019s what happens when you have fast track, and it\u2019s what happens when you have a National Government focused on making sure we get rid of the roadblocks, and getting things done. There\u2019s a lot happening in the energy space and lots more to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002211e9e1f818754d97b60bba4b18e5dc03\u0022 data-id=\u00224799741e4f0f6c77ae37b716fb23b993\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002211e9e1f818754d97b60bba4b18e5dc03\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224799741e4f0f6c77ae37b716fb23b993\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON (Associate Minister for Regional Development) (16:50)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Look, there\u2019s so much going on under this Government in terms of energy generation and resources. It\u2019s really hard to keep up but just this very morning, the public notification\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271d8acf3a6f0476999f9d03b4ae70e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adab0a3a020c4e65687559da32363927\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Breathtaking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002211e9e1f818754d97b60bba4b18e5dc03\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b7a8489ec3cfd2a9eb54052e754cd8e\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and I\u2019m interested in the Minister for Resources\u2019 knowledge of this, and perhaps you could illuminate, because a major announcement was publicised this morning in turning Southland\u2019s lignite reserve, I believe it\u2019s something like 9 billion tonnes, into urea, and also electricity generation from the hydrogen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EOn top of that, my understanding, and perhaps the Minister could illuminate, the impact that fast track has had on drawing that investment\u2014that we\u2019re actually competing with Victoria in Australia. If the Minister could answer those questions, please. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002271d8acf3a6f0476999f9d03b4ae70e7d\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe81c3da9b8b1fc7bb3dc35069390488\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271d8acf3a6f0476999f9d03b4ae70e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe81c3da9b8b1fc7bb3dc35069390488\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Associate Minister for Energy) (16:51)\u003C/span\u003E: Somewhat unusually, I\u2019m going to stand to address, because the portfolio is split, the questions from the honourable shadow Minister for energy, first. A question has been raised: why do we not increase the obligations upon the fuel importers, very quickly, so that they go straight up to 28 days, and that creates a problem as to where this additional fuel would be stored\u2014not only that; the costs associated with demurrage if this additional fuel was brought to New Zealand and left in a vessel bobbing on the coastline.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, of course, none of this would have happened had the situation been handled differently with the closure of the refinery, and I\u2019m not going to tempt an admonition from you, other than to say the fact: had the 700 million - odd litres of storage capacity not been terminated in 2021-22, we may very well have had tanks fit for use. However, I inherited a situation where there were a lot of aspirational paragraphs; no budget, no plan of execution. Within eight weeks, New Zealand\u2014eight weeks\u2014I\u2019ve achieved, on behalf of the Government, what the last regime could not do for 1,000 weeks; simply dedicated a small amount of money, relatively speaking, to upgrade 100 million litres\u2019 worth of storage; recommissioned a crude tank, to the best of my knowledge, for the purposes of holding additional diesel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe acid is on the fuel import companies because, yes, as the honourable member knows, we\u2019ve given them a period of time to create additional storage capacity and, from time to time, a number of their tanks are not full, but no one\u2019s car, day by day, in New Zealand, when they drive it around, is full of fuel. The capacity of the tanks ebbs and flows. That\u2019s my response in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn respect of what additional steps the Government might be making to build an additional sovereign buffer, all I would say is: until such time all Ministers have addressed that issue, as the Prime Minister has adverted to, then we\u2019ll make an announcement as to what level of additional buffer should be created.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe other point that was made is: what confidence do we have as to what\u2019s happening on the other side of the refinery businesses, given the disruptiveness and the massive changes that have happened in terms of where the feedstock is coming into the refineries? It gets converted into fuel, gets put on to ships, and eventually makes its way through to New Zealand predominantly, if not exclusively, through three companies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve been advised that the refineries have been reorientated to cope with feedstock from Latin America, the United States of America, Africa, and alternative sources. Now, it is true that 20 million barrels per day were going through the Strait. However, there was always an additional amount of feedstock coming out of that part of the world, the Middle East; that is still flowing, but the disruptiveness has caused the refineries to reorient. No single fuel company has said that they are close or perilously heading towards violating their legal obligations, because punitive damages up to $700 million could be visited upon them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248ce26e54d83406399b875df20400dec\u0022 data-id=\u00221170dc24dcb66c25e7c0a2b92a201806\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248ce26e54d83406399b875df20400dec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221170dc24dcb66c25e7c0a2b92a201806\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First) (16:55)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I\u2019m going to ask one question, but I also wanted to remind the Minister who\u2019s just spoken about the question that my colleague the Hon Mark Patterson asked about the lignite urea plant in Southland, which has been proposed because that seems to be a massive opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe question I wanted to ask about is that when talking to one of the energy companies recently, they said, \u201CWell, look, we\u2019ve got a range of different generation proposals.\u201D They had a solar proposal, they had a battery proposal, they had a wind proposal, they had a geothermal proposal. What was interesting is that the, if you like, base plate number for the solar was very much the cheapest; the geothermal was the most expensive of them. Given that the solar plant would only operate less than 20 percent of the time, in effect because it\u2019s not sunny all the time, it certainly doesn\u2019t operate at night, by the time you set what level of energy it generated, the geothermal plant was actually the cheapest by the amount of energy that it generated, and, of course, it\u2019s operating close to 100 percent of the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy question that I wanted to ask, in addition to the question that the Hon Mark Patterson asked in terms of the lignite urea conversion is to ask about the progress that\u2019s being made on super-critical geothermal exploration, how that\u2019s going, and what difference that would make if we managed to get that to work to the New Zealand electricity system, in terms of delivering reliable and more cost-effective energy and what that does, of course, for industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283d0b8dbc762c51dc2570507504fb8e3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Megan Woods. Just a reminder that the Minister will be leaving the chair at 5 but will be back here at 9 tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022 data-id=\u0022acb88138ebce03ab5cc7b7a2acd442cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022acb88138ebce03ab5cc7b7a2acd442cc\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram) (16:57)\u003C/span\u003E: OK. I have several questions; one is for the Minister in the chair, the Hon Simeon Brown. What is the current balance, as of today, of the Petroleum or Engine Fuels Monitoring Levy memorandum account?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe other question I have is for the Associate Minister for Energy. What advice did he receive when he cancelled the plan for a 70 million - litre storage facility for diesel that would have been at Marsden Point and would have been under construction right now? Did he get advice that, in fact, the previous Government had changed the law so that memorandum levy account was available to be used to fund it? When the Minister says that there was no plan, was he advised that, indeed, there had been a legislative change to provide the funding to allow for a 70 million - litre diesel storage facility at Marsden Point, but that Minister cancelled that in 2024? He told his Cabinet colleagues that he was doing it as part of the cost-saving measures of their Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EDoes the Minister regret the fact that he\u2019s put New Zealand\u2019s energy security at risk? He\u2019s now claiming that he\u2019s fixed it in eight weeks. Does the Minister, now, accept that all he is doing is putting back in place the plan that he scrapped in 2024, which was to have a strategic reserve of diesel at Marsden Point? While that is around a week\u2019s worth of diesel, he would have received advice that showed that, actually, if you were going to use that for essential services, that could be up to four months\u2019 worth of diesel for New Zealand to keep things running. But he took a paper to Cabinet in 2024 and cancelled that project.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4a7dbded6d6c0ac9da00ea09ac9f698\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4a7dbded6d6c0ac9da00ea09ac9f698\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister for Energy) (16:59)\u003C/span\u003E: I can only but answer the first part of her question, which was: what is it, as at today? I don\u2019t have the number as at today. I\u2019m very happy, if you put that in writing, to answer that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ESecondly, I\u2019m sick and tired of the scaremongering by the Opposition\u2014the absolute scaremongering from the Opposition\u2014when it comes to how much fuel is in our country at the moment. They\u2019re scaremongering, rather than actually putting out the facts about the fact that we have supply in the country and supply on the way; instead, they\u2019re reverting to scaremongering, which I think is appalling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e2e1d1236efc0e46dbbe03b3ca1185c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s time, sorry. The time with the Minister for Energy has been suspended now until 9 p.m. this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022929f05768aab96bc09bb0cdef6a9afe2\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u2014Annual Review Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cfe1208fca946e6b1a0c6d08fd42d127\u0022\u003ESocial Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b88d8293be79501bb89f389e96e2882\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister for Social Development and Employment is now available for one hour to respond to members\u2019 questions. The Minister, the Hon Louise Upston.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u00227b2583e4b9caf162ddaff6820819b9f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b2583e4b9caf162ddaff6820819b9f4\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment) (17:01)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to just make some opening remarks ahead of the select committee comments, and then I\u2019m more than happy to answer questions. This is obviously the debate on the 2024/25 annual review for Vote Social Development. As I said at the annual review hearing, which was back in December last year, my highest priority as the Minister is to support New Zealanders into work, while ensuring those who genuinely can\u2019t work are able to draw on support when they need it. We have a Government target to reduce the number of people receiving the jobseeker benefit by 50,000 by the year 2030. Of course, the faster we can help those on benefit find sustainable employment, the better the outcomes are for them, their families, our communities, and of course, our country. I\u2019m conscious that we\u2019ve only got a short time, so I just want to provide some brief statements and then answer questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to acknowledge some of the work that\u2019s been done by the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) during the year in review, 1 July 2024 to 30 June 2025. As expected in the current economic climate, in the uncertain global environment, the overall number of people in the year in review receiving a benefit increased. However, our Government\u2019s welfare reset is getting results and helping job seekers to be work-ready and proactive about stepping into the opportunities that exist to either, you know, be ready for work as the opportunities are there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn the year in review, MSD supported 80,700 people off benefits and into work. Given the economic circumstances in the year in review, I think that\u2019s a really great result. MSD answered around 4.4 million phone calls, funded community support services accessed by over 94,639 people, and processed 271,500 student loan and student allowance applications. The focus on employment and proactive staff engagement is really helping more people to move into work. In the 2024-25 year, this included expanding case management from a capacity of 60,000 to 70,000, and that included the implementation of phone-based case management. We\u2019ve also increased our K\u014Drero Mahi seminars, which saw a total attendance of approximately 70,000 people throughout the year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe implemented community coaching, which funded a further 2,100 places for youth job seekers to address barriers and support them into employment. This was achieved despite a tight fiscal environment. MSD saved a total of $352 million during the year in review, with more savings forecast in out-years. This included $15.7 million in savings from contractors and consultants, with more savings from this category also being reprioritised within the Ministry; and also 17,000 saved with changes to make the workforce more efficient.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere is, of course, much more work ahead of us; we\u2019re very clear about that. I do want to acknowledge the incredible work of every one of the team at the Ministry of Social Development, who do an amazing job to help New Zealanders overcome the barriers they face to employment. I want to thank them on the record for their hard work, for their dedication, and the incredible public service they provide. Happy to take questions, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275e7161a0ab9426256ff7a5d7c5af85c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I\u2019ll call Willow-Jean Prime, but I just wanted to make a comment. Last night, we had a bit of an issue, so If there are any Associate Ministers in the House\u2014I\u2019d like to ask the indulgence of the ACT Party for any Associate Ministers to sit over here, because we can\u2019t have officials coming out onto the floor of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220838e5f9bac748d2a59aea595e5226a0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f7f7547eee219477e07f18896acc069\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: I indulge thee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220233a67a4f49299371aa3970c6473a0d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Simon Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022 data-id=\u002283cbfcaaa728c1738239c79df4f61b8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283cbfcaaa728c1738239c79df4f61b8c\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour) (17:05)\u003C/span\u003E: \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003ET\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai.\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to take a call. This annual review debate is for the 2024-25 financial year, and it\u2019s an opportunity to reflect on what the Government has done for our most vulnerable people. People who are seeking extra support and assistance, and also assistance to get a job\u2014often the most vulnerable of our people. Unfortunately, when we do this, we can all see that this Government is making things worse. They are taking away opportunity and then kicking people when they are down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s start with the most obvious: this Government took office promising to reduce jobseeker numbers by 50,000. What we can see is that they are closer to increasing it by 50,000 than they are to decreasing it. Over 25,000 people have ended up needing to turn to State assistance under great duress due to this Government\u2019s failures. The record is stark: unemployment is up, food insecurity is up, child poverty is up, and more and more jobs are being lost. And what has this Government done? They have sanctioned vulnerable people when they simply need support. They\u2019ve slashed funding for community services and made it harder for people to get the help that they need. I want to start by asking questions around those jobseeker numbers, the targets, and the sanctions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EQuite obviously, this target has not been met, and I see from the Government\u2019s own tracking that the chance of meeting this is becoming less and less likely every day that they are in power. But I want to ask the Minister about something that she said in the 2024 Estimates hearings. During that hearing, my colleague the Hon Carmel Sepuloni noted that she had received an Official Information Act (OIA) response about the measure for the target. In that OIA response, the Ministry for Social Development and Employment recommended that work exits be the measure of success for the target, not the number of people on jobseeker support. The Minister has referred to that in her opening comments. The Minister\u2019s reply was \u201CYou\u2019ve also got to look at what\u2019s happening for the numbers coming in and staying in.\u201D My question for the Minister is: what is she doing to understand the people coming on to jobseekers and staying on, and the people leaving and staying off?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u0022d491dd8b5c5f1ef1ace043460002b0a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d491dd8b5c5f1ef1ace043460002b0a1\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment) (17:08)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. The member has referred to the jobseeker target, which was, of course, as I mentioned in my opening comments, to reduce the number of people on the jobseeker benefit by 50,000. That\u2019s by the year 2030. I accept that the target is at risk, but every day I get up and go to work, that is what I\u2019m focused on, because what we do know is that the best way to reduce hardship is for families to be in work. While I accept, and I said in my opening remarks, that the economic conditions in the 2024-25 period were incredibly challenging, but actually we saw 80,700 people leave benefit and go into work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe member asked the question and referred to the difference between work exits and jobseeker numbers. If I\u2019m blunt about it, actually, work exits is an easier target. But I\u2019m more interested in people actually being in employment, leaving jobseeker benefit, and being on a better pathway towards independence\u2014which is why I accepted a far more challenging target, which was around the number of people on the jobseeker benefit. We want to see real results and real outcomes, and we\u2019re not afraid of having an ambitious target that will be challenging for us to meet, but we know the difference that people coming off the jobseeker benefit and being in work makes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbfd9c7e98f716fb7dcaeb223815b635\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbfd9c7e98f716fb7dcaeb223815b635\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour) (17:10)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I did ask the Minister to explain more to help me understand what she is doing to understand the people coming on to the jobseeker benefit and staying on, and the people who are leaving and coming off. I don\u2019t believe the Minister addressed that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EWhile the Minister is getting some guidance there, the next issue I would like to ask about is the sanctions and the traffic light system. I understand that the Minister has an early assessment of the traffic light system that she uses to talk about its success, but, as far as I can see, success relates to people simply understanding their obligations, and not actually success in getting people into work. Can the Minister tell us how she is assessing the impact of her sanctions in terms of actually getting people into jobs? This is important because so much resource is going into the sanctions and obligations, and we need to know that this is a good use of those resources.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u0022301f512b33adedd3c9733d5b64942200\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022301f512b33adedd3c9733d5b64942200\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment) (17:11)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for their question. One of the changes that we\u2019ve made is the K\u014Drero Mahi seminars. Before someone comes on to the jobseeker benefit, they have that initial participation in this seminar, which is all about understanding what support and services the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) can provide to them and, on the other side of it, what responsibilities they have if they sign on to the jobseeker benefit. It\u2019s about having really clear expectations, a greater understanding of what people\u2019s responsibilities are, and\u2014really importantly\u2014what support is available through MSD, and then the traffic light system is all about having a really simple way of being able to demonstrate that somebody is fulfilling their obligations or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn the year in review, we\u2019ve seen high degrees of great people participating at green, which means they\u2019re on track, they understand their obligations, and they\u2019re fulfilling them. I do want to be very clear in this committee of the whole House\u2014because it has been misrepresented on many occasions\u2014that nobody is sanctioned if they can\u2019t find a job. The sanction regime, which is the same graduated sanction regime that was in place under the previous Government, is only used if they don\u2019t fulfil their obligations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe have seen great success with the traffic lights. We do know that it\u2019s about being clear about what the expectations are and an easy way to see if people are on track or off-track, and less than 1 percent are at red, which really indicates that people are clear about their expectations and it\u2019s working.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022260d1b2eaa0a60fe2e49717658601421\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Joseph Mooney, as chairperson of the Social Services and Community Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f0d31505882949b1a768aad60863fba9\u0022 data-id=\u00224a724521362f11289346a00fcdac8bfd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f0d31505882949b1a768aad60863fba9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a724521362f11289346a00fcdac8bfd\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (Chairperson of the Social Services and Community Committee) (17:13)\u003C/span\u003E: Regs review? Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I rise to speak as the chairperson of the Social Services and Community Committee to the annual reviews of the Ministry of Social Development for 2024 and 2025. It is the organisation that sits at the centre of our social support and employment system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Ministry of Social Development has enormous reach. In 2024-25, it administered over $44 billion in non-departmental expenditure, with superannuation and core benefits accounting for the majority of that spend. While total departmental revenue fell by just over 8 percent, the ministry recorded a surplus and received a clean audit, with all major control environments rated as good, a positive improvement on the year prior. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn employment, the committee spent significant time examining the Welfare that Works programme. Case management continues to be one of the ministry\u2019s most effective tools, with around 70,000 clients now receiving this support, up from 60,000 the year prior. We heard clear evidence that targeted, intensive support works, particularly for younger New Zealanders, with nearly half of those completing community job coaching entering employment by the end of June 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe context is telling. At the same time, as of June 2025, more than 216,000 people remain in jobseeker support, with forecasters suggesting numbers will peak in 2026 before declining. The ministry was candid with us that the Government\u2019s longer-term reduction targets are under pressure from current economic conditions, but we were encouraged by the fact that over 70,000 people moved from being on an employment benefit into work last year, which is more than 10,000 than the year before. We were also reassured by improvements in benefit entitlement accuracy, with performance lifting steadily over the year, although of course there\u2019s always more work to do, particularly for supplementary payments and disability-related payments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis is an incredibly important agency to support vulnerable people, to support New Zealanders achieve their goals in life and, where possible, get into employment, and to assist those who fall off the tracks that our society has within a whole raft of different ways. I acknowledge that it has been a very challenging couple of years, and the ministry is performing a very important role, but we were encouraged by the reports that we received and heard as a committee. With that, I commend our report to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022 data-id=\u0022d04d793c2b9b7a1c399dddc1779c314e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d04d793c2b9b7a1c399dddc1779c314e\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour) (17:15)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair, after the chairperson of our select committee showed up to work\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022706b40bec208e0eab955c098b90f8059\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I don\u2019t\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f02f166bef9602bd18352f244da54e9\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014because he doesn\u2019t want to get sanctioned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267ebacffb17143ee102f4e14187f8dcb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, but I\u2019m going to stop it right there. It\u2019s not a fair comment. There was a change in time as I came in to take my role in the Chair and we moved the agenda slightly, and so it was not the chairperson\u2019s fault that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee01bf7bea123b6fd807f0906b361686\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, OK\u2014it was 5 o\u2019clock on mine, so\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbe1a8e22412dcd45d8d91b54f960130\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s not your fault either, but I just think that that was an unfair comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a491514eedd0958706da3155092cdbe\u0022\u003EHon Member: \u003C/span\u003EYou didn\u2019t check the email.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022513b9622642bda0387c05baddfad8da1\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Sure\u2014OK, Madam Chair. As I was just exploring with the Minister around the sanctions and the traffic light system, one of the things that I\u2019m concerned about is that the evaluation only looks at exits, and not exits into work. How does she know that it\u2019s not the case management system or job coaching that is actually achieving work exits and that it is nothing to do with the sanctions? Why did the review not include that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u002248954bca12cedfdc112ce89ac6218ec5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248954bca12cedfdc112ce89ac6218ec5\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment) (17:16)\u003C/span\u003E: Let me talk about a couple of things. I think, going back to the question that the member asked prior to this, one of the other significant increases is in the investment in case management. There were 60,000 people in case management, and there are now 70,000. Case management is the most effective programme that the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) funds and delivers, and it is the significant increase in the number of people in case management that is a strong correlation to what we are seeing in terms of work exits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe evaluation of the traffic light system that the member referred to isn\u2019t within this annual review period. What I would instead draw her attention to is the evidence around sanctions, which shows it can result in more exits from benefit. That is 84.7 percent of people, and this is where the impact is. Where there is someone who moves from green into orange, 84.7 percent are resolved after they contact MSD. Part of that is then what support is available, are they accessing it, are they participating in their obligations, which might be contacting their case manager, it might be participating in training\u2014those sorts of things. All of those together are the things that have a greater impact and that lead to greater work exits, and so, as the member would well know, it\u2019s not one thing. It is a multitude of many services and supports that MSD provide that is contributing to those high work exit numbers, and in terms of the evaluation of the traffic lights system, that\u2019s not in this year of review. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022 data-id=\u00227216b1256dd232b21ef184e07228d911\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227216b1256dd232b21ef184e07228d911\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour) (17:18)\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate the Minister saying that the review isn\u2019t in this period that we\u2019re covering, but it is to review something that is in the period that we are covering, so I believe that the Minister can actually talk to what is from that review. The reason that I\u2019m asking this question is because significant resources are being put into the sanctions and obligations, and I want to know why the review is looking only at exits and not exits into work, and how do we know that the sanctions and the traffic light system are worth the amount of money that the Minister is spending on that? There is also the significant impact that it has on some of our most vulnerable people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022 data-id=\u002231e894d938c035f5773840e904023a6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231e894d938c035f5773840e904023a6c\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green) (17:19)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I wanted to raise an issue that relates to people having their benefits cut or being prevented from accessing a benefit because they\u2019re deemed to be in a relationship in the nature of marriage. We know that disabled people are particularly hard hit by this policy. In previous annual review debates, the Minister noted that this is just the longstanding policy, but I\u2019m interested in knowing whether the Minister supports the policy altogether that has been used in the period we\u2019re reviewing. That\u2019s my first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy second question relates to the number of people with a client integrity service case completed from 1 July to 30 June in the year that we are reviewing. We have seen the breakdown by ethnicity, and I am particularly concerned that as the Ministry of Social Development moves from early intervention to investigation, once you move to investigation, the ethnic disparity over who\u2019s more likely to be investigated turns to a really concerning figure, which is that M\u0101ori are more likely to be investigated once they move towards those more kind of heavy-handed interventions that could result in prosecutions, could result in prison time, and could result in tens of thousands of dollars\u2019 worth of debt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy second question is: why are M\u0101ori more likely to be investigated for things like welfare fraud than their counterparts when that is not the case for early intervention and facilitation processes which do not show that M\u0101ori are disproportionately targeted by these less burdensome and consequential interventions, like I said?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u00228e390bc8d1905eabcd957a7dfee5104f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e390bc8d1905eabcd957a7dfee5104f\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment) (17:21)\u003C/span\u003E: I want to clarify the question the member\u2019s asking. Are you asking specifically in question two in relationship to the relationship rules, or is it a much broader question? If you could just clarify, please. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022 data-id=\u00227a662b23344098e11aa8d5333bcd99f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a662b23344098e11aa8d5333bcd99f3\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green) (17:21)\u003C/span\u003E: The reason why I raised the relationship rules is because historically we know that most investigations, or the largest reason for investigations, is to do with someone\u2019s relationship status. I accept that there may be other reasons, but that has been the largest reason historically.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb1a41f7e1b99d47f215b8184d00abe8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb1a41f7e1b99d47f215b8184d00abe8\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment) (17:21)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for his question. In terms of the relationship rules, they are longstanding rules, and they are in place because an underpinning principle of the welfare system is that it\u2019s based on a household rather than an individual. I know that there are some people who disagree with it and believe that support should be based on each individual. There is no view to changing a longstanding principle of the Social Security Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EMoving on to the member\u2019s second part of the question, I don\u2019t have that detail in front of me in terms of the disproportionate number that he is suggesting are being investigated. What we do know is, unfortunately, M\u0101ori have a disproportionate number of people receiving benefit and then, further down the track, in interventions or, in this case, in investigations. It does then lead to that there\u2019s a higher proportion that are also being investigated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2b80166eb41ccd77612c7f1f9a719ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2b80166eb41ccd77612c7f1f9a719ba\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green) (17:22)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve got the figures in front of me. For example\u2014I\u2019ll just compare M\u0101ori with European, for example, in this case\u2014for early intervention, it\u2019s 636\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9e15cacb011ec4d9b0b7ea732580517\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Just wondering, could the member come a little bit closer to the microphone, and if I could just ask the people on my right just to\u2014we\u2019re getting a few conversations going on, and I think the Minister and I are probably struggling to hear some of what you\u2019re asking. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0a347eeff0a64154bbdac8924638c36\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: No worries. Thank you. For early intervention it is 636 M\u0101ori versus 996 European; for facilitation, it\u2019s 1,150 M\u0101ori versus 2,487 European. But for investigation, there are more M\u0101ori: 861 versus 828. What this tells us is that the more heavy-handed approaches tend to be used against M\u0101ori in a more frequent way than for European counterparts, compared to the early intervention facilitation which do not risk, for example, someone being prosecuted. With those figures in front of the Minister, does she have any concerns that there are disparities along ethnic lines for the more heavy-handed approaches that MSD can take?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EMoving on to another topic\u2014so I\u2019d really be keen to just, now that I\u2019ve provided the figures, get the Minister\u2019s view on this\u2014does the Minister have concerns that the rate of declines for hardship assistance for food has increased at a time where the cost of living crisis has been skyrocketing? What does she think that the increase in the decline rates shows, and what are the impacts down the line for families that are missing out on basic essentials such as food?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u0022276cd7edf860bf54b0801b0c484c917d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022276cd7edf860bf54b0801b0c484c917d\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment) (17:24)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for bringing to the attention of the committee those statistics around early intervention and investigations. I\u2019ll go away and have a look at that in more detail. In terms of the hardship declines, there obviously have been changes around emergency housing, and my colleagues spoke to those last night, so I won\u2019t cover that in my comments today. There have been no policy changes around the hardship grants. That\u2019s the first thing I want to say. In terms of the numbers that are granted, they are very in line with previous years, which is what you\u2019d anticipate. In terms of the number of declines, there is greater clarity around what the policy is. Some of the rules were relaxed during the COVID years, and they were just put back in place now that we\u2019re well out of the COVID years, but there has been no policy change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022 data-id=\u00229a2a63dc7a919175093aeedc13596e75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a2a63dc7a919175093aeedc13596e75\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green) (17:25)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you so much, Madam Chair. The rules around the use of discretion have not changed, even within the previous Government. It was just the amount that people could access before they had to show exceptional circumstances, which takes me back to the question of: what does she attribute to the increase in the rate of decline for hardship assistance for food over the period that we have seen? Is that a matter of having a culture problem in the front-line Work and Income offices? Is it just that people do not need assistance for food, which doesn\u2019t seem to be the case, because every bit of feedback from stakeholder tells us that people out there are needing assistance for food more and more due to the cost of living crisis that we\u2019re experiencing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI\u2019m interested in knowing what, if anything, the Minister can attribute this increase in the rate of decline for assistance for basic stuff like food to? I\u2019m not talking about emergency housing; I\u2019m very narrowly talking about assistance for things like food and toiletries and other essentials that can be provided through those hardship grants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u00226a3e69b88e388a5afcdb47c0575a144b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a3e69b88e388a5afcdb47c0575a144b\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment) (17:26)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair, thank you. I do believe I answered that in terms of there\u2019s been no policy change. But some other settings\u2014for example, approval by a manager\u2014were taken out during the COVID years and put back in when the COVID period ended, which is the period in which our Government has been in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0b5e177c52178f81bc72563e22ada25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0b5e177c52178f81bc72563e22ada25\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour) (17:26)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Just in terms of that, though, can the Minister outline to us\u2014because we\u2019ve seen the declines in food grants, for example; the emergency food grant applications rose by 60 percent between 2023 and 2025, and demand is increasing. Why is the rate of declines rising?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3062a72d9a044aab33c62cbeb3b5613\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3062a72d9a044aab33c62cbeb3b5613\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment) (17:27)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll say it one more time: there has been no policy change. There are operational guidelines that the Ministry of Social Development follow, and I\u2019ve explained the difference between the COVID settings and what we have now. We have granted a similar level of food grants\u20141,288,773\u2014which is very in line with the year prior.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e3f0847936986ed0874b37ec67af8a2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: OK\u2014Willow-Jean Prime. I will say that I have heard the Minister answer that question on three occasions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0e38fdfd3094692f9dc572b8aec14d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0e38fdfd3094692f9dc572b8aec14d2\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour) (17:28)\u003C/span\u003E: Ah, yes, she said the number is similar, except for the demand has gone up and the number of declines has gone up by 60 percent. How does she explain that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5a1827002475f1502eb145ab446a4e1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I believe she has\u2014Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022 data-id=\u00220e73439a0252eebcca5f321b49a50b8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e73439a0252eebcca5f321b49a50b8a\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green) (17:28)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I wanted to go back to the relationship roles and particularly the cancellation of benefits due to them. Has the Minister seen reports or accounts from people on the benefit that people who may have flatmates who they may have just been cohabitating with have been deemed to be in a relationship in the nature of marriage\u2014particularly with disabled people who may just be cohabitating with really close friends? If so, if she has heard those accounts, including from organisations who have long called these policies \u201Coutdated\u201D and not reflecting our modern-day life, does she not have any concerns whatsoever around how this policy is applied, particularly for disabled people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere are some examples where disabled people on the Supported Living Payment completely lose access to their benefit and are made to be fully financially dependent on whoever the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) seems to be their partner, even if they are not. When we talk about \u201Cpartner\u201D, MSD defines it as \u201Ca relationship in the nature of marriage\u201D, but that seems like quite a very, very specific thing to be trying to define when we know in practice people get their benefit cut just because they may have gone on a few dates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIf she has not seen any accounts, how does she know that the policy is fit for purpose? Or has she seen accounts from beneficiaries and organisations such as Child Poverty Action Group, who have long called for these rules to be overhauled? That is destroying people\u2019s lives\u2014particularly disabled people who are made to be financially dependent\u2014through no fault of their own or decision of their own but on whoever MSD decides that their partner is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u00227622b359c02708fe6ee2b92c7c9cdb1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227622b359c02708fe6ee2b92c7c9cdb1a\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment) (17:29)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair, I\u2019ve been warned by the whips that I need to keep my comments short. I have already answered the question in terms of the policy. I accept that not everybody agrees with it, but it is a longstanding principle of the Social Security Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b11bafcf5b5427480393ffeef4fe6e8\u0022 data-id=\u0022e12f2365e5e0c05d048db53ecb81abfc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b11bafcf5b5427480393ffeef4fe6e8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e12f2365e5e0c05d048db53ecb81abfc\u0022\u003EORIINI KAIPARA (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014T\u0101maki Makaurau) (17:30)\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Chair. Over the 2024-25 financial year, homelessness has spiked. The Salvation Army \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EState of the Nation Report\u003C/span\u003E showed more than half of the 112,000 or so homeless people in Aotearoa are aged under 25. Homelessness in my electorate of T\u0101maki Makaurau has more than doubled in the time, to almost 1,000. My question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022508bb206fdee359c30c0b8665a27b182\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve just been advised by the Minister for Social Development and Employment that homelessness is actually not part of her portfolio, so perhaps\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b11bafcf5b5427480393ffeef4fe6e8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e7476c75b797eac19665a78c4a05be1\u0022\u003EORIINI KAIPARA\u003C/span\u003E: Let me state this: my question centres on rangatahi or youth homelessness, which does fall under the social development and employment portfolio. During the period in review, 54,612 benefit sanctions were made. What impact has that had on rangatahi homelessness and homelessness in general in T\u0101maki Makaurau and across Aotearoa?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe second question is: how has the Minister\u2019s decision to impose financial sanctions instead of non-financial sanctions improved rangatahi homelessness or homelessness in general?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThirdly, what specific measures has the Minister championed to ensure rangatahi who are either at risk of or experiencing homelessness receive rangatahi-specific housing support and wraparound care? How many care-experienced rangatahi have become homeless or transient within 12 months of leaving care in the past five years? There are five questions specifically under that portfolio that I put to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u0022428021172a6d6998426468f806a47a06\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022428021172a6d6998426468f806a47a06\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment) (17:31)\u003C/span\u003E: The issues related to housing, social housing, homelessness were covered in the annual review debate last night with Minister Potaka, so I won\u2019t be covering that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIn terms of the question around the use of financial sanctions versus non-financial sanctions, in the year in review, the non-financial sanctions hadn\u2019t been implemented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022 data-id=\u0022774f5f1db35052364cc410e8be56d970\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022774f5f1db35052364cc410e8be56d970\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green) (17:32)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Going to non-financial sanctions, what does she make of the fact that out of the total sanctions that have been applied, non-financial sanctions, to my understanding, make less than 0.5 percent of total sanctions? A significant amount of money has been spent in updating the Ministry of Social Development\u2019s system so that these sanctions could actually be used, but it seems like they\u2019re not being used altogether, basically. Does she accept that this could lead to, or be seen as, a failure or a policy failure, or, if not, how does she explain the fact that basically no one is able to be placed in community work experience or money management? On the money management side of things, is it because, basically, the way that the policy\u2019s designed means that almost everyone, or at least the average beneficiary, would be left without being able to afford their home if they\u2019re put on money management? On community work experience, would it be the case that front-line organisations just simply do not want to take people in, because the benefit sanction\u2019s unworkable?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u002289f002a25ee9330377d03ce1d9bea9ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289f002a25ee9330377d03ce1d9bea9ce\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment) (17:33)\u003C/span\u003E: The policy for non-financial sanctions had only just commenced with two of the sections, and there are conditions around when they can be applied, for clients who are either in case management or who have dependent children and it\u2019s their first obligation failure. What I do want to just put on the record of the House is that financial sanctions were very much a direct response to concerns raised when there were children in benefit-dependent households where a financial sanction was imposed. What we wanted to do was come up with a range of non-financial sanctions for that set of criteria. For the period which we are reviewing, the non-financial sanctions were very early, and it\u2019s too early to be able to assess their use.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022 data-id=\u00224ce8e4116a49db9ff11d16a8bbbe11b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ce8e4116a49db9ff11d16a8bbbe11b0\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour) (17:34)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I have a series of questions in and around job losses. We know that there are 32,000 fewer jobs under this Government, and so I had a couple of questions for the Minister for Social Development and Employment. You\u2019ll be familiar in your own area, in Taup\u014D, that around the areas of Tokoroa, there have been significant job losses over the past year to 18 months. Kinleith Mill lost 150 jobs, Kinleith plywood 119, and Winstone Pulp\u2019s Ruapehu mills\u2014230 there. At the very same time, we\u2019ve seen these job losses and closures. You would think that for a Government that says they want to create the conditions for jobs and they\u2019re going for growth and things like \u201Cthe economy is stronger when more people are working\u201D, if these closures are happening, it would\u2019ve been the right time to increase ability for people to take up training, take up opportunities, and retrain in areas where they might need to. She\u2019ll be aware that Toi Ohomai in Tokoroa had 60 job losses in and around the same time that we\u2019ve seen three closures of wood manufacturing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to ask the Minister, first of all: how is she creating the conditions for jobs and going for growth when there is a simultaneous kick in the guts for working people who are losing their jobs and losing access to retraining?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u00223a03c01de046fe1624de77d103726c8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a03c01de046fe1624de77d103726c8d\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment) (17:35)\u003C/span\u003E: I will keep my comments in terms of the scope of the portfolio, which is around the redeployment support service, and give two examples. One was the Smithfield Alliance in Timaru, with about 700 affected workers, and the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) worked very closely on the ground with those workers. The example that the member gave in Tokoroa, project phoenix, was stood up as a combination of work across Government agencies, council, and Toi Ohomai to work really closely with affected workers, and I\u2019m really proud of what MSD have done on the ground. I know it\u2019s a really challenging situation when a business makes the decision to close, but MSD have been on the ground early, supporting those workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022 data-id=\u002252995beebfd7d35466f0919385e9ccc8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252995beebfd7d35466f0919385e9ccc8\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour) (17:36)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much. Does she think it was the right use of Government money to be giving a significant amount, undisclosed, for, for example, Robbie Williams to come to Auckland when people in her own electorate aren\u2019t being given adequate support by the Ministry of Social Development to be able to retrain and to get the support, and those on the ground unemployed are not receiving adequate support? Is that the right choice for this Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd3a32e436444722a54cea24cae6b239\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: In as much as it relates to this portfolio.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213b487d4e026630c20793ca697a6416e\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. There are other areas that have been impacted by job losses. We\u2019ve got Northland, Hawke\u2019s Bay, Taranaki, and also Nelson-Tasman, which have all sustained significant job losses. There seems to be no plan in place apart from a target for the Ministry of Social Development to have people off the jobseeker benefit. What is the plan for regional New Zealand to be creating the conditions for jobs and going for growth when we have seen record levels of people laid off? And, I\u2019m sorry, but if the Minister is going to tell the committee today that fast track is the solution for Northland, Hawke\u2019s Bay, Taranaki, Tasman, and Southland people who are now unemployed, the people out there find that answer to be unsatisfactory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u002215119743e96ae5b15bae31f7e04e6239\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215119743e96ae5b15bae31f7e04e6239\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment) (17:37)\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in my answer to the previous question, it is incredibly challenging when a business makes the decision to close. I\u2019ve given two examples of the support that the Ministry of Social Development has provided in the year in review, and I\u2019m not going to speak outside that time frame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b11bafcf5b5427480393ffeef4fe6e8\u0022 data-id=\u0022a030c15a7bb73ef6fc0ba4bfa8ca04d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b11bafcf5b5427480393ffeef4fe6e8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a030c15a7bb73ef6fc0ba4bfa8ca04d7\u0022\u003EORIINI KAIPARA (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014T\u0101maki Makaurau) (17:38)\u003C/span\u003E: Did the ministry receive any direction in 2024-25 to shift away from equity-focused or Tiriti-based approaches? If so, who made that decision, and how was it justified?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1db3722d3225fad4246bc3e20f27dac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1db3722d3225fad4246bc3e20f27dac\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment) (17:38)\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5698655ae8d75508410278f3bf96429\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5698655ae8d75508410278f3bf96429\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour) (17:38)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Just going back to the questions around food insecurity and the Minister for Social Development and Employment\u2019s answers, what I want to know is: what is she doing to make sure that people actually have enough food? No?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI also understand that an evaluation was undertaken of the Food Secure Communities programme, which was conducted last year. Can the Minister tell us when this report will be released publicly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022876010775f2ee42c7efcb7242a5b304e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister says it\u2019s outside the year in review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022142d9aa019ebec394d5fbf4a68b725be\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: It was undertaken last year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u002298dd4e05cea14572f73095d8c35f1d8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298dd4e05cea14572f73095d8c35f1d8b\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment) (17:39)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not going to comment on things that are outside the year in review, and as the whips have warned me, I\u2019ve got to keep my comments short.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022 data-id=\u0022258ab65a6d81a15ba6547a3f7626d7a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022258ab65a6d81a15ba6547a3f7626d7a3\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour) (17:39)\u003C/span\u003E: The review was undertaken last year, which is the year in review. When will it be publicly released?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffd5ac08575d10cf0c228ee08349c599\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I think the Minister\u2019s answered that question, so I suggest, given the Minister\u2019s short of time\u2014and it is a House constraint, not the Minister\u2019s choice\u2014I would say just ask as many questions as you have, and we\u2019ll try and get the answers as collective as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fad56dbbb74026b75ba257d537f61e6a\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, just trying to get answers, but clearly not getting any in terms of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022928be413c00d410d1f4a722b66212846\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: No, the Minister gave you an answer. She said that last question was out of her scope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200c23e1727e85b42f50354835c18563d\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: But it was undertaken last year, which is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228691a1439611d576ccbba5d44988660b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not arguing with you; I\u2019m just saying you\u2019ve received an answer. You don\u2019t have to like the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1797937bf01e7db258b5b9fc23cf164\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Sure. Going back to the non-financial sanctions, and, again, the Minister for Social Development and Employment made the point that they were not in use, I think, in the review period. Again, this is a review of things that have been undertaken within the annual review period\u2014sorry, we\u2019re talking about our review and the annual review period. In terms of the non-financial sanctions, what I\u2019m concerned about is if they had not come into effect and the policy wasn\u2019t being implemented, does that mean that there have been people who should have been eligible for the non-financial sanctions who have actually received a financial penalty instead?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u00222d308f763da6910dc7df3e68f5c9f9aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d308f763da6910dc7df3e68f5c9f9aa\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment) (17:40)\u003C/span\u003E: During the year in review, there were 69 non-financial sanctions that were applied, and it was not throughout the entire year of the financial review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b11bafcf5b5427480393ffeef4fe6e8\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0866b8e2efa3ac3afc63087f2c0d88d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b11bafcf5b5427480393ffeef4fe6e8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0866b8e2efa3ac3afc63087f2c0d88d\u0022\u003EORIINI KAIPARA (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014T\u0101maki Makaurau) (17:40)\u003C/span\u003E: The annual report confirms persistent disparities for M\u0101ori clients. What steps are the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) taking to strengthen their M\u0101ori initiatives to close this gap? What steps\u2014I\u2019ll continue on and ask all the questions, as you duly noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022365c78c95b9233a5bc244078ddc29c48\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that\u2019s fine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b11bafcf5b5427480393ffeef4fe6e8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228120878e5f94e948ea0f9818b5e20ecc\u0022\u003EORIINI KAIPARA\u003C/span\u003E: What steps are Oranga Tamariki taking to reduce the overrepresentation of tamariki M\u0101ori in State care and in youth justice facilities, following Dame Karen Poutasi\u2019s review of the children\u2019s system\u2014are you going to stop me? No. What concrete changes were implemented during 2024 and 2025, and what is the funded implementation timeline going forward? Does the Minister accept that rising hardship demands signals a failure of policy settings, and not just service delivery? Lastly, why should wh\u0101nau who are struggling right now have confidence that MSD is meeting its purpose when hardship indicators continue to worsen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022 data-id=\u0022a47812d34c511dd9cc308884308c3342\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a47812d34c511dd9cc308884308c3342\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour) (17:41)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m interested to know from the Minister what her plan is for creating the conditions for jobs in the Hawke\u2019s Bay. I recently attended a public meeting there where employees, growers, and also local representatives were there, discussing the closure of Wattie\u2019s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227346c15524775d751bb8107030239c56\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: That is outside the scope of the financial year that we are discussing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de39f09f9b972ee202cb09455d2102bb\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: What, the job closures\u2014the closures, or the impacts on the community?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b069e103f740ee4489f961f6be9ce786\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re discussing the annual review for a specific time, and the questions that you\u2019re asking\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223906e9f6b84f3a7c6925d5e8da9ef0ef\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and current as well, I believe. It\u2019s current and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e82979086659c317ffcd5ca4430d045\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: No, only if they extrapolate out from what has been discussed in the report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b3df605011fd7621bb2d21699e91d18\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: OK, I\u2019ll remove those questions about the closures. If the Government doesn\u2019t want to talk about recent closures, that\u2019s fine. What is the Minister\u2019s plan for the Hawke\u2019s Bay for creating the conditions for jobs in that area, which has had increasing unemployment over the past year? One of the issues that I\u2019m aware of is that there is a lack of job opportunities there now, and there\u2019s also been a lack of a Government response in that space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u0022592fadd1761c3bbf7f6240c6115b4310\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022592fadd1761c3bbf7f6240c6115b4310\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment) (17:43)\u003C/span\u003E: I will say again that this is the annual review for the financial review from 1 July 2024 to 30 June 2025, and so that is the year which we are considering. I\u2019ve given specific examples of how the Ministry of Social Development redeployment team works, and if the member wanted to ask questions of the Minister for Economic Growth around our growth plan and \u201CGoing for Growth\u201D, then that would be the appropriate place to ask those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EBut I would just say again that every single person that our Government supports to exit the benefit into work is a victory. It\u2019s a win for that individual, their wh\u0101nau, and the community, and that\u2019s what I\u2019ll continue to focus on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe0fc737ef5b48923581ddc27111088c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe0fc737ef5b48923581ddc27111088c\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour) (17:43)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m interested to pick up on an issue that we covered over the last year\u2014and at the last select committee, as well\u2014in the Hutt Valley in terms of youth employment. There has been a recent termination of a contract. Yes, they still get He Poutama Rangatahi funding, but we\u2019ve got a local youth provider, which the Minister is aware of, that has not received funding and that is now unable to help young people in the Hutt Valley to retrain. What steps is she taking to make sure that there are opportunities available for young people who need to get the additional support?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI understand there has been another contract awarded. I don\u2019t know if that\u2019s public or not yet. I was told last time I asked that it wasn\u2019t public and it wasn\u2019t able to be told, but I\u2019m aware that the new contract has gone to a provider that works with people that are far quicker to place. They don\u2019t need the extra assistance, time, or the extra effort in place to help them, whereas the original contract actually helped harder-to-reach individuals. I\u2019m interested to know what the Minister has been advised. Was she aware of it simply going for low-hanging fruit for job placements, instead of helping harder-to-reach rangatahi who need extra assistance? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022 data-id=\u0022b12681c2848d3d4411f845b62b6fbf9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b12681c2848d3d4411f845b62b6fbf9b\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour) (17:45)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. In addition to those questions, I\u2019m quite interested in how many young people who received job coaching have found employment\u2014what percentage\u2014and how long they have stayed in employment. What programmes has the Minister engaged with to achieve the 1,600 places that regional providers have had for people aged between 18 to 24 who are on jobseeker support?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ESome questions around the Mayors Taskforce for Jobs: I want to know if there has been any change to the funding and criteria.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u00223d79a7e35bba4580a664989f29d725fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d79a7e35bba4580a664989f29d725fa\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment) (17:45)\u003C/span\u003E: In terms of the question around job coaching, 45 percent of those participating in phase 1 have so far achieved employment outcomes. In terms of the questions around Youth Inspire, a fair and partial procurement process was undertaken by the ministry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ETo the member Oriini Kaipara\u2019s questions: the questions you asked around Dame Karen Poutasi and Oranga Tamariki are outside the scope of the Ministry of Social Development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b11bafcf5b5427480393ffeef4fe6e8\u0022 data-id=\u0022d04081ee0f2d3d0b9dee3c5f26048ea9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b11bafcf5b5427480393ffeef4fe6e8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d04081ee0f2d3d0b9dee3c5f26048ea9\u0022\u003EORIINI KAIPARA (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014T\u0101maki Makaurau) (17:46)\u003C/span\u003E: How is the ministry continuing to measure the effectiveness of Te Pae Tata, a M\u0101ori strategy and action plan, in improving employment for M\u0101ori? One final question from me: how would the ministry address the concerns from the whaikaha community, or the disabled community, about potential service delivery issues, particularly for whaikaha who are M\u0101ori\u2014for the M\u0101ori disabled community?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1f1aeb94e762deb5179b10bc7c294dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1f1aeb94e762deb5179b10bc7c294dd\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour) (17:46)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. There is another appropriation that I\u2019d like to ask the Minister questions about\u2014and it\u2019s a different line of questioning to the ones we\u2019ve covered\u2014particularly around the historical claims appropriation. The Ministry of Social Development received an appropriation of $81.87 million in Budget 2024, which the Minister told us was to speed up the process for claimants with a lodged claim. I\u2019d like to ask the Minister what this funding was actually spent on and if it is having an impact. Were more staff employed or were processes improved, and, if so, how? Are times to closure starting to reduce? Finally, is there a target or a maximum time cap in which these claims processes that she would like to see are to be received?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI can see the Minister is just processing those questions, and so I\u2019d like to give her the opportunity to do that. Again, we have asked some written questions around this and we know that the average time is about four to five years, and so with that appropriation, I\u2019m interested to understand what the Minister is seeing from that: whether they\u2019ve employed more staff, whether the times are reducing, and what the target is in terms of that and what the maximum time cap is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8c93706d1bb924f7c77b42ff1f39b6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8c93706d1bb924f7c77b42ff1f39b6f\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment) (17:48)\u003C/span\u003E: The appropriation was to increase the speed and also look at improvements to the process. One of the challenges is at the same time we were doing that work, of course there\u2019s been a lot more awareness about the claims process, and so we\u2019ve also seen a significant increase in the number of claims coming in. I\u2019m happy to provide more data to the member on that because I know it is a topic of interest, but I don\u2019t have those figures with me right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022 data-id=\u002254a2f1d9c496cb246e98b5d117e35621\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002254a2f1d9c496cb246e98b5d117e35621\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour) (17:48)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I appreciate that the Minister can\u2019t comment on specific operational issues such as tenders for the Youth Inspire, and so I thank you for the information. But I\u2019m interested to know, generally speaking, whether the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) collects information on provider rejection rates of clients from MSD that they have declined to work with. For example, if there\u2019s a provider who\u2019s got a contract and someone has being referred to them, and then that contractor is declining to work with that individual for whatever reason, does MSD collect that data, and, if not, why not? Is she aware that contracts have been awarded to providers that regularly reject referrals from MSD, and what is the point of the contract if they\u2019re rejecting people who need that service?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022 data-id=\u00228b2f122099f0474a17240c2eeacfdaa8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b2f122099f0474a17240c2eeacfdaa8\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour) (17:50)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Different topic to that of which my colleague is asking about, in particular it\u2019s the housing supports including boarders\u2019 contributions. Now, I understand that this is just coming into effect now in 2026, but my questions are around the advice that the Minister received, which will fall within the review period. What advice did the Minister receive regarding how this change might contribute to homelessness?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve had correspondence from some people who this change affects and they say that they will have to evict their boarders, who themselves are struggling to get by and may end up in worse situations because of the interactions that it will have for them. What advice did the Minister receive regarding how the reductions in the accommodation support that people hosting boarders will experience may lead to increase in demand and other forms of income support? Given the cost of living crisis that we have and worsening under this Government with the fuel price rises, has she considered delaying the implementation of this change? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u002252260f5e9073811e6181214ebac78604\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252260f5e9073811e6181214ebac78604\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment) (17:51)\u003C/span\u003E: The policy has come into effect in March of this year, and the policy was set in the year in review. It was based on the principle of fairness where every contribution from a boarder should be taken into consideration in terms of the support that somebody receives, and the first two shouldn\u2019t be excluded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022 data-id=\u00227e1dd48f938d110d07d6de30f6071b79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e1dd48f938d110d07d6de30f6071b79\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour) (17:51)\u003C/span\u003E: My last question was: given the cost of living crisis that we know we have at this point in time, and is being worsened by the fuel crisis, has the Minister considered any changes to this policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI just want to ask one more on that boarders contribution. The question is around what advice did the Minister receive about it impacting on accommodation support and demands for other income support, therefore, potentially cancelling any savings that is being planned by this budget initiative? The Minister didn\u2019t speak to that. Could she please answer that question? No?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fc7108447d5f1961a2b2fae3837ff44\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, the Minister\u2019s got no more time available to answer questions, other than yes or no. If you can maybe hone it in a little bit for the last\u2014just before the dinner break. We have two minutes left.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f0a05231fef4937016e614b551d508c\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Two minutes left. Do I have two minutes left on my side?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022019f1acecc097c4a73896776b3395ed4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: If you can come up with some very quick questions that get a nod or a\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a837fc51c7886677dffe7e1f41338d3d\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I don\u2019t have two minutes left either. So are we just going to sit here and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207c523c96751c7f88273008f6c26e4d1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t have two minutes left either. Well, then, if nobody\u2019s got any minutes left, I think it\u2019s probably\u2014I\u2019ll just check with the Clerk. Yeah, if I seek leave of the committee to suspend for the dinner break and\u2014I seek leave. Is there any objection to that course of action? There is none. In which case, it\u2019s time for me to leave the chair for the dinner break. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterItalicsCentred\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 5.53 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022310cfe00f509db56c260b99ee9c1ba6d\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u2014Annual Review Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c8fce13004fa2f6d02fc2ecdc2255f42\u0022\u003EEnvironment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd59b8cf2d1f516ffb140031ac750f5e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Good evening, members. I hope you all dined well. The Minister for the Environment is now available for one hour to respond to members\u2019 questions. Catherine Wedd from the Environment Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c562dc86e974914b8878595e580f138\u0022 data-id=\u002283a0c2a01d8df5edee05ab263cce35f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c562dc86e974914b8878595e580f138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283a0c2a01d8df5edee05ab263cce35f6\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (Chairperson of the Environment Committee) (19:30)\u003C/span\u003E: I rise to introduce the annual review of the Ministry for the Environment and would like to thank our Environment Committee members for their time and effort in this annual review report. The ministry\u2019s total revenue for 2024-25 was $190.38\u00A0million. Its total expenditure was $180.21 million, resulting in a surplus of $10.17 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThroughout the annual review, we looked at climate change; we were advised about a range of tools that could be used to support the uptake of methane-reducing technologies and discussed several emissions reduction initiatives being developed or trialled in the agriculture sector, which was very positive to reducing emissions. We also looked at adaptation and emergency preparedness. The ministry said that the overarching purpose of its work on climate adaptation is to ensure that New Zealanders are as informed as possible about climate risk and the potential implications for them to enable them to take action. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe spoke about catchment groups, which was a very positive discussion. In July 2025, the ministry announced funding of $6.4 million for catchment groups. The ministry said catchment groups are incredible partners who offer key skills and capabilities to help achieve environmental outcomes, and the work that catchment groups do across New Zealand is very, very positive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe spent quite a bit of time discussing resource management reform, because this, of course, is the bulk of the ministry\u2019s work at the moment. The Resource Management Act (RMA) reform, of course, is the largest reform in a generation. It\u2019s predicted to cut consents by about 46 percent and is estimated to save over $13 billion in administrative and compliance costs. This took up a large amount of our discussions, because the RMA reform is intended to speed up infrastructure development, housing projects, and renewable energy, and cut red tape on the farm for our farmers. The ministry also said that the fast-track process had been very effective and that applications had increased, which was very positive news that we discussed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe also spoke about waste minimisation. The ministry is working to modernise the Waste Minimisation Act 2008. We also spoke about many product stewardship programmes that are going on, Tyrewise being one of them. I know our Minister has recently visited and found out all about Tyrewise and the amazing product stewardship programme that this is, where the tyres are repurposed and kept out of landfill and recycled into roading products, which, of course, is very, very positive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere are many, many things that we discussed during this annual review. It was a positive annual review and report, where we all showed our passion for the environment. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7e348d5bb9d2280f1fe8220144b6400\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7e348d5bb9d2280f1fe8220144b6400\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG (Minister for the Environment) (19:33)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. It is indeed a privilege to rise and present tonight for my first time as the newly minted Minister for the Environment, and can I acknowledge the chair of the Environment Committee and, indeed, all of her colleagues across the Chamber for the work that they do. I\u2019d also like to acknowledge the former Minister for the Environment, Penny Simmonds. I really do hope, genuinely, to continue the very excellent work that she\u2019s done and, indeed, to explore some new opportunities for improvement, because I think everybody in this Chamber would agree that New Zealand\u2019s natural environment is a great source of pride to us all. Not just that; it is, of course, fundamental to our economy and the health and wellbeing of our people. The Government is taking the approach that we want to grow our economy by cutting that red tape and making it easier and more affordable to do things\u2014but, I have to reiterate, that is absolutely within the bounds of environmental protections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAs the chair of the select committee has alluded to, and I\u2019m sure we will hear from the Minister himself, the Government has been working at pace and great volume to progress two new bills, our new Resource Management Act (RMA) rework. We\u2019ve got the Planning Bill and the Natural Environment Bill\u2014which, again, is very much focused on that protection and enhancement of our natural environment. For the pieces of work that very much fall within my wheelhouse, work is progressing on amending that Waste Minimisation Act and the Litter Act to modernise and consolidate, because a lot of these Acts are becoming aged and are no longer fit for purpose. I do intend to introduce amendments to the House this year and, hopefully, if time allows, we can enact them before the general election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI do want to talk to some of the noteworthy wins, to use the colloquial term. Minister Simmonds, across most of last year, launched a range of initiatives and strategies: one, to reduce waste disposal per person\u2014data has shown we\u2019re making great strides in that. Two, to increase reuse and recycling of materials and products; to minimise emissions\u2014again, I think across the Chamber we all agree with that, but I think, as always, it\u2019s the \u201Chow\u201D that we can vary on. We do also want to reduce that environmental harm from waste and litter and then, of course, to ensure that resource recovery and disposal facilities are managed to minimise their own environmental impacts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m fairly certain that conversations will turn to the waste disposal levy this evening, so I want to acknowledge that in the 2024 Budget, the Government\u2019s changed the Waste Minimisation Act to allow that waste disposal levy to be spent on a wider range of environmental activities and, while doing so, to increase that levy incrementally over the three years from July 2025. That is so that we can actually help to fund a more comprehensive set of waste and environmental priorities. That levy can now also\u2014or will also\u2014support projects to improve fresh water quality, to remediate contaminated sites, and to restore the health of those very vital ecosystems. We\u2019ve got about 50 active projects across New Zealand funded by the Waste Minimisation Fund and other waste-related funding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m sure, again, we will turn to the topic of contaminated sites and vulnerable landfills. We have a fund up and running. We\u2019ve allocated since October 2024 about $21 million across seven projects, ranging from really vulnerable landfills to old mine sites, and so on and so forth. I know the topic of product stewardship has already been touched on, but I do want to single out Tyrewise, which the Hon Rachel Brooking is very, very proud of her involvement with\u2014justifiably so. It is indeed our country\u2019s first priority product stewardship scheme for end-of-life tyres. I was blown away with the briefing that I had on the project. Already, $6.5 million end-of-life tyres have been collected out of the system and repurposed for fuel. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThen, indeed, as is so topical, climate change and ongoing weather-related events\u2014emergency waste funding. The Government is here to support councils with the cost of managing waste following emergencies, and we can talk to a series of those that have occurred over the past year. But look, all in all, we very much are looking to take a pragmatic and balanced approach to the reforms that we\u2019re progressing through this Parliament and, indeed, to our wider approach to protecting, enhancing, and preserving our environment and our ecosystems. With that, I take my leave and look forward to the questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022 data-id=\u002274f51f3cc222717524a71b7cad76841e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274f51f3cc222717524a71b7cad76841e\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin) (19:38)\u003C/span\u003E: Now, here we are, at the annual review that\u2019s focused on the environment and, in fact, the Ministry for the Environment\u2014but what does the select committee have in front of us? Oh, a bill, to disestablish that very ministry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EOver the last year, this ministry has faced 278 redundancies. The Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment has noted a $1 billion drop towards environmental spending in the coming year. Meanwhile, this Government has been making it easier to pollute, passing laws under all-stages urgency or dropping in a huge amendment at the committee of the whole House stage so that there is no select committee process. The public have not been able to have their say. We have missed regulatory impact statements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022784f4e929aed4ea6a05d1a10add6eccb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a22e4a338a9a4c9b6b1c23036ac26bb\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c2122fc2bb4a75ec4d8b925bcaaa315\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Well, for a lot of these laws, this is very much true. Now, this Government does not seem to be one that cares about the environment at all, and New Zealand deserves better. I\u2019m hearing a lot from the other side, but I want to know from this new Minister today, on Earth Day: is there any inclination to do better for the environment, to improve the environment and embrace being the Minister for the Environment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee590ae9a1779348c8d2e175c9d7baf9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee590ae9a1779348c8d2e175c9d7baf9\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG (Minister for the Environment) (19:40)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m very pleased to be able to respond to that question and, indeed, statement, because I think it\u2019s a really important opportunity to set the record straight. There are certainly some mistruths around the way that the disestablishment of the ministry has been characterised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EYes, we are disestablishing the Ministry for the Environment, but for very good reason. We\u2019re establishing what is commonly referred to as MCERT\u2014the Ministry for Cities, Environment, Regions and Transport. We are, of course, merging all of those ministries together. It\u2019s an integrated approach, because, as I\u2019m sure everyone will agree, the environment is, indeed, integrated and everything is inter-operational. MCERT will, at its heart, be tackling some of this country\u2019s greatest economic and environmental challenges: housing affordability, infrastructure deficits, climate adaptation. There are very strong synergies between these four agencies. There\u2019s very good intellectual heft between these four agencies. This merger is simply about reducing bloated bureaucracy. We saw, under the previous Government, something like 16,000 extra bureaucrats were appointed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe spokesperson\u2014I was going to refer to her as the Minister\u2014talked about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022695a3acba137c0de69a92714346ab262\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, go on!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227be956b9cd02e0ee958e111af2765fd1\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014redundancies\u2014another day! That\u2019s been made very clear in the select committee\u2019s own report, the annual review of the ministry. Yes, despite that reduction in workforce, the ministry has actually produced a record amount of output\u2014a full 4,822 items, which included 896 briefings, probably most to Chris Bishop; 62 Cabinet papers, probably most to Chris Bishop; 452 Official Information Act requests\u2014that\u2019s probably a lot for you, Andrew Hoggard!\u2014and many, many more parliamentary questions and pieces of ministerial correspondence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn fact, I\u2019ve only known my colleagues\u2014the officials in the Ministry for the Environment\u2014for a little over a week, but I think it does them a disservice to say that the protection and preservation of the environment is going to somehow go astray or go asunder because of the merger of these ministries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAgain, I want to be clear for the record: we are not getting rid of the Ministry for the Environment\u2019s functions. Its role has always been advisory. We\u2019re simply moving these functions to the newly appointed Secretary for the Environment, who I understand\u2014not yet met\u2014is an exceptional operator. I encourage that side of the committee to have some faith in the officials and their expertise, because I, for one, will expect the functions will continue at the same world-leading standards that they always have. It is simply that the statutory functions will continue as they always have; they are simply being shifted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227add49aada38904a57f852bf45fe4d16\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022 data-id=\u00224805b63a8c8804a470a7e5af88201851\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224805b63a8c8804a470a7e5af88201851\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin) (19:43)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. There are a couple of points I\u2019m interested in there, and I\u2019m sure the Minister for resource management reform will be able to have a say on this in a minute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOne issue is that the Minister for the Environment just said that she agrees and that she thinks everyone will agree that everything in the environment is integrated. Yet we have an under-secretary for the resource management reform say that this Government\u2019s Resource Management Act reforms are about ending this integrated management of the Resource Management Act, and we see that in the form of two different bills, being the Planning Bill and the Natural Environment Bill. I\u2019m interested in whether the Minister for resource management reform might want to comment on how that is enabling an integrated approach\u2014having those two different functions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAlso, how is it consistent to merge the Ministry for the Environment in with these other ministries that are very much focused on that cities and planning area and\u2014I mean, you can\u2019t separate it, because it\u2019s all integrated\u2014not, say, more rural and less urban environments? How do those two work streams come together? That\u2019s one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA second question is: the Minister\u2019s talked about how there will still be environmental functions, how is she going to ensure that those environmental functions take precedence and that in any conflicts arising between different Ministers, the environment will have the highest regard as the Minister for the Environment? Is she concerned\u2014like the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment is\u2014that we risk losing an independent voice for the environment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u002282ce5a6b9d8e40178207f8588b95df9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282ce5a6b9d8e40178207f8588b95df9b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform) (19:44)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much. Can I echo the remarks of my friend and colleague the Hon Nicola Grigg around the Ministry for the Environment (MFE). One of the things that happened when the Government changed on 27 November 2023 is that I became the Minister for the Resource Management Act (RMA) reform, and walked in and said, \u201CYour first job is to repeal two pieces of legislation that the previous Government had passed, that a considerable number of officials at the agency had spent a considerable number of hours working on.\u201D\u2014which obviously is tough for any public servant; they\u2019re human, like the rest of us, and we sometimes need to think about that more, in my view\u2014and the very professional way that was done. Then, I said, \u201CWe need a fast-track regime done by the end of 2024.\u201D That was done and it is now rolling out. Just on Monday, yesterday, the 19th project was approved under fast track. In the meantime, we\u2019ve had, I think, three RMA amendment bills\u2014maybe even more than that\u2014most notably of which is RMA Bill (No 2), which made a series of really good, substantial changes, actually, to the RMA, in preparation for the new legislation coming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EYou will not find harder-working public servants than the Ministry for the Environment. They have done that, as the spokesperson says, with declining baselines and reducing staff numbers. It is really a testament to the leadership of the outgoing Secretary for the Environment, James Palmer, and the leadership team at the Ministry for the Environment, that in the greatest New Zealand Public Service way, they have got on with the job of responding to a new Government\u2019s priorities and provided free and frank and fearless advice, but they have also taken the Government\u2019s direction. That tension is something that will always exist, but I\u2019m very, very proud of the officials. I take this opportunity to say thank you to them for their exceptional work in difficult circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe disestablishment of the Ministry for the Environment is not about reducing the importance of the environment to New Zealand; in fact, it is the opposite. It is about amplifying the environment. What has happened with the silo-isation, as I\u2019ve put it\u2014I think that\u2019s a word\u2014but the isolation of the environment into a separate ministry is that there is a tendency to ignore the advice from the Ministry for the Environment, because it can just be written off as \u201COh, that\u2019s just the MFE and they\u2019re just doing all their environmental thing.\u201D Actually, the reality is: how do you do proper transport planning in a spatial sense in a region and how do you do land-use planning in a city or a district, without thinking about the environment? Increasingly, as severe weather events happen and there\u2019s greater awareness of natural hazards, and greater awareness of exogenous shocks coming to particular regions, thinking, in the long term, about proper spatial planning and the environment that that is part of is critical to how we do transport and housing. It is obviously true that things like flood mitigation and things like natural hazard mitigation are all intimately connected to transport and housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe other thing I would say is that if you think about housing, which is my great passion, we have a Ministry of Housing and Urban Development, but the actual levers, the real levers, for housing affordability currently sit within the Ministry for the Environment because they are, essentially, the regulator of district plans when it comes to housing capacity and all of the rules and district plans, but the funding and financing of the infrastructure required to give effect to those district plans is the responsibility of the Ministry of Transport or the New Zealand Transport Agency\u2014or local government, which is regulated or overseen by the Department of Internal Affairs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe have made, I think, the pragmatic and sensible decision to bring these functions together. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s going to change the world. No Government restructuring is a panacea or nirvana. It\u2019s not going to change the world, but I do think it will make a difference. I plead with the Opposition to stop this sort of incessant nonsense about how disestablishing the Ministry for the Environment means that the environment doesn\u2019t matter anymore. Like, to be honest, it is the height of facile debate to just kind of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d475c3890240ef64d81b9456fb56c22\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s your record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224810c1d887fbfd929ed613cc40604490\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I know it\u2019s the name of the bill\u2014I know it\u2019s the name. If I could change the name of the bill, I would. I don\u2019t decide what they\u2019re called. It would be really good if it said \u201CEnvironment (Establishment of the Ministry for Cities, Environment, Regions and Transport) Bill\u201D. That would be good. If you want to focus on the name of the bill, can I plead with you to get into the substance, because the substance is actually good. Stop with the nonsense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022 data-id=\u00222c2a80359428a517c4fe2e317c1895c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c2a80359428a517c4fe2e317c1895c7\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin) (19:49)\u003C/span\u003E: I just have a few comments in response to Minister responsible for RMA Reform\u2019s speech, and one is: if, as he is so adamant, this Government is going to suddenly change course and do better for the environment, will he agree here, today, that every single part of that new ministry will do better for the environment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdd221a696e33c1b98044d84775831c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdd221a696e33c1b98044d84775831c7\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform) (19:50)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. In the round, the new ministry, I believe, will lead to improvements of our natural environment over time. That\u2019s the reason we\u2019re setting it up. Take the development of the national flood map, for example. That is going to be the responsibility of the new ministry. Well, why are we building a national flood map? Why are we doing that? It\u2019s because we need to get better granular data led by science around where and what we can build to flow into spatial plans, for example. I mean, the Minister for the Environment talks about waste. Waste is actually\u2014again, this is another example as to why the merger is a good idea\u2014for example, delivered largely by the private sector and in conjunction with local government, and the Waste Minimisation Act gives various different powers and funding streams to local government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EAnother classic is stormwater and waste water. OK, so we\u2019ve been having this ongoing debate for the last eight years about the three waters and how we deal with the ridiculous situation we\u2019ve got ourselves into where local councils have been the ones responsible for the funding and delivery of, essentially, what\u2019s a network utility infrastructure service, which is drinking water and waste water. Unsurprisingly, they have done a poor job of that, so we have essentially\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4791edd9ab60a62f0276c443c64be34\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, if only we had three waters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eda84559ddf4c30e3c4d9deba9ad56f9\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, they have done a poor job of it. Look, we\u2019re in Wellington right now. Try living in this city\u2014try living in this city. I mean, the member who\u2019s doing the questioning lives in Dunedin. I\u2019m unfamiliar with the state of the Dunedin stormwater and waste water network, but I\u2019m willing to lay a bet that it is better than Wellington\u2019s, which would be about the worst in the country. You can\u2019t walk down Lambton Quay without either (a) slipping on those ridiculous bricks that litter Lambton Quay; or (b) walking past tobies that have fallen apart.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EDo you know, I am told that Wellington Water discovered that they installed a pipe from the top of Aro Valley down to Wellington harbour in the early 2000s that has never been connected to any network and, until they started actually going through their records as part of local water restructuring, they didn\u2019t even know existed. It had been put in at vast expense in the early 2000s and had just sat there unconnected. All the records are based on paper. They use different sump specifications in Upper Hutt and Lower Hutt and Wellington, and there\u2019s been decades of under-investment largely because local body politicians have prioritised building convention centres and half-billion - dollar town hall upgrades on the ground of heritage and not focused on the basics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBut here\u2019s the point. The delivery of waste water and stormwater treatment plants\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af04329b7a7512a7cfea7519ee7c9c61\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: You should have listened to Nanaia Mahuta. That\u2019s the point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfc4e941537ff2c1b09c6e6390c173c3\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014is a function of, obviously, local government at some level, but the standards by which they are set and the impact they have on the environment and the flows has an environmental impact. Standards that are set there are set essentially through environmental standards, which is\u2014well, actually, it\u2019s a bit unclear who\u2019s responsible for that at the moment. But in the new agency, it will be the responsibility of the Ministry for Cities, Environment, Regions and Transport (MCERT) because those functions are connected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI genuinely plead with the Opposition, who think they are going to be in Government after the next election\u2014and we know that is not the case, but let\u2019s just enter an alternative universe in which the Labour Party actually has some policies. I realise that\u2019s a big ask, but let\u2019s enter a fantasy world in which Labour gets it together and actually gets some policies; let\u2019s enter the twilight zone and pretend. In the world in which Labour win the election, I plead with them to think about the system they will be inheriting because what the Government is building is not a system for this Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb7b34a931bebd6d60050f35aecabf0c\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Which is why we had a Spatial Planning Act. It was dealing with three waters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dc458cbe111ef0105efc49bbc29fd55\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014well, it partly is for this Government, but it\u2019s mainly, actually, about better public policy for a better New Zealand. Why are we here in this place? We are trying to build better public policy and that\u2019s what we\u2019re doing with MCERT. Jump on board the journey. It\u2019s even electric powered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265907cf13f7e96a05a0cba5d31675210\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Ms Brooking, this is why it\u2019s good to have interactions: so we can actually stand and say these things without having to yell across the floor so I can\u2019t hear what\u2019s going on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203a9a78995df41d999aa5550770febd3\u0022 data-id=\u00222dab1b43b82e1f43a80812057b00f1fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203a9a78995df41d999aa5550770febd3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222dab1b43b82e1f43a80812057b00f1fb\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green) (19:55)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I do want to welcome the new Minister, the Hon Nicola Grigg. It\u2019s somewhat a hospital pass when it comes to having to pick up the work not only, as we\u2019ve heard, of disestablishing your own ministry\u2014and I\u2019m hearing the pleas around \u201Cplease, please, please don\u2019t write this off as something that is actually going to be worse for the environment\u201D. Minister, I hope you are well informed about the submissions that we did hear on the disestablishment for the Ministry for the Environment because they were hugely concerning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m picking up the Resource Management Act reform Minister\u2019s comments about getting into the substance, and I actually would like to get into the substance. Firstly, I would really like to hear some commentary from the Minister for the Environment, because a lot of the justification that went into a lot of the Budget decisions when it came to the Vote Environment appropriations were around this idea that the balance had swung too far in favour of the environment at the cost of getting things done. Minister, we actually had your colleague, the previous environment Minister, actually be called out for those comments by the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment. That actually lead to your colleague admitting in an official information response that she was \u201Cnot provided with advice or evidence from any agency to support [her] statement\u201D and that \u201Cthe information requested does not exist\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMinister, I\u2019m really keen to hear from you in this new role. Do you, as the new Minister for the Environment, share the view that the balance has swung too far towards environmental protection at the cost of getting things done? Where do you expect to see the impacts and the substantial results of, for example, this $1 billion reduction in expenditure\u2014which, again, the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment has pointed out? Where do you expect to see that? Because we\u2019ve seen cuts across fresh water programmes, across climate adaptation, waste minimisation funding. Where do you think that might hurt the most in terms of environmental outcomes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022 data-id=\u0022d06efd613ba143e75a8d1d1237b2a6b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d06efd613ba143e75a8d1d1237b2a6b4\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin) (19:58)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Still on this first general topic that seems to encompass the new ministry, integrated environmental management, and whether or not we want to improve the environment. In response to the Minister responsible for RMA Reform, he said something about wanting proper spatial planning and I questioned, then, why did this Government repeal the Spatial Planning Act that the previous Government introduced? When he gives a plea to Labour to please look at good policy development, why is it that his Government also campaigned\u2014or his party campaigned\u2014to get rid of the work that Nanaia Mahuta had been doing on what was called the three waters and having entities that would actually work? Because of the issues that the Minister has just discussed with issues when you go council by council. I asked the Minister to answer those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also interested in what some Ministers have been discussing, and there\u2019s a document\u2014and I know it\u2019s not this Minister; it\u2019s not the Minister of Local Government \u2014but there\u2019s some discussion about breaking up regional councils and making them into unitary councils. I\u2019m interested in all Ministers in the room\u2014what their view is on the importance of a catchment-based approach to environmental management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s one question as well, and then I\u2019ll just end with one other question that is related to some of what the Minister was saying in terms of flood management and climate adaptation. That is: where in the ministry\u2014and maybe where in this new ministry\u2014does green infrastructure fit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe, as a select committee, have asked ministry officials to provide us some expertise on green infrastructure, and we were told that there was nobody in the ministry who had that skill set or was working on that issue\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288b7eb3054f018fe7e498e3d5e3559c0\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: What is green infrastructure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c1e6afe9bfa281d4a5e180b80775041\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Green infrastructure: nature-based solutions, rather than grey infrastructure, looking at different things. Some in your Government might call it nice-to-haves, but the Aotearoa Circle just did a big presentation at Parliament that Tama Potaka spoke at. I think Minister Simon Watts was there as well talking about how you can\u2014we\u2019ve heard about sponge cities as well. There was that big Helen Clark report on sponge cities. That is what I\u2019m talking about in green infrastructure. In the Natural and Built Environment Act, there was a reference to it that you would have national direction on the use of this green infrastructure as well. The idea is that it can save everybody a lot of money, and often there will be a dual purpose if you have a sports field that also serves a stormwater purpose in storms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThat is a number of questions. I\u2019m asking about regional councils and the idea of catchment-based planning. Why did the Minister refer to proper spatial planning when there was a Spatial Planning Act that he repealed? Also, if he\u2019s talking about long-term infrastructure planning, why is it that the work that was done for the three waters and those bigger entities was got rid of, plus this green infrastructure\u2014where is it going to fit with the new ministry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022 data-id=\u0022068375cd70869f43c037e3603acf7917\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022068375cd70869f43c037e3603acf7917\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG (Minister for the Environment) (20:01)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, a bit of confusion there\u2014I just want to rise just to respond to the member Lan Pham\u2019s questions, and I do acknowledge her expertise in this area. Look, the comment about where cuts will hurt the most in terms of environmental outcomes\u2014I really want to push back on that because, as we\u2019ve already explained, the reduction in expenditure for this new Ministry for Cities, Environment, Regions and Transport (MCERT) is entirely around creating efficiencies, reducing bloat, reducing double-ups. I just want to point out to the committee that there\u2019s still an \u201CE\u201D in MCERT, for \u201CEnvironment\u201D. Environmental capability is very much going to remain a core capability of this new agency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAs the Hon Chris Bishop so eloquently pointed out, everything is interconnected, and I really do believe there is opportunity. This is why we are taking bold, brave steps as a Government to do things differently. I do believe there is an opportunity to grow our economy and protect, preserve, and enhance our environment at the same time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think what that side of the Chamber is tending to forget or deliberately ignore is the scientific advances that are occurring every single day within this country and indeed around the world. There is an opportunity to grow farming, as an example, to increase our dairy herd, our dairy production, and protect, preserve, and enhance our environment. You see the extraordinary work that farmers across New Zealand are doing of their own volition. You see the extraordinary work that our catchment groups are doing. They are recharging aquifers and groundwater systems. They are rebuilding wetlands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EYes, everybody acknowledges that mistakes were made in the past. Quite extraordinary that the Canterbury Plains\u2014alluvial flood plains, very leaky soils, piling on nitrogen over decades, starting about 30 years ago. Nobody knew the consequences. We do know those consequences now, and hence this side of the Chamber is going to back development, is going to back economic progression within the bounds of environmental imperatives. Hence, we do have freshwater restrictions, we do have nitrate restrictions, we do have targets for emissions outputs, but, again, they are backed and founded in science, because we believe science will find the solutions to our environmental problems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022 data-id=\u00223c9f386c2a8fc84a993713abe58ca1e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c9f386c2a8fc84a993713abe58ca1e0\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin) (20:04)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I\u2019ll try and follow the Minister\u2019s lead there and go into water quality. I\u2019m just looking at my friend in the Greens. We\u2019re trying to be helpful, despite all my yelling and heckling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299b8c43a631b328b716660a771067179\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve never known you to be otherwise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3401772096d32eebb9c143a906f9b87\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. We\u2019re moving on to fresh water, and I want to ask the Minister for the Environment a follow-up question from her statement then, and then some questions about section 107 and fresh water generally. She just referred to \u201CWe now know that Canterbury has leaky soils and there have been problems with nitrate.\u201D\u2014I\u2019m sorry; I\u2019m paraphrasing there. Why is she now going to make sure that the regulations that have lapsed that relate to that, which stopped intensification there\u2014will she reinvigorate those to stop further conversions of dairy farms on those soils? That\u2019s one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe second one is: if that is her particular interest, will she also allow the regional councils who had their plans stopped from being notified\u2014will she let them be reignited?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThen, on to section 107, when I was opening, I referred to big changes that were made without a select committee process. One of those was the change to section 107. Some people were allowed to submit on it, and other people weren\u2019t, and that was in the Resource Management (Freshwater and Other Matters) Amendment Act. A regional council can now grant a discharge permit that the council itself is satisfied will cause significant adverse effects on aquatic life. My question around this is: how is that change to section 107 consistent with improving freshwater quality? What steps will she take as the new Minister to improve freshwater quality? And does she think that New Zealand should have swimmable rivers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fa370c0016e740998a2816116c8e4365\u0022 data-id=\u002204b5ee84a7c4263c4fad2f2357b32969\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fa370c0016e740998a2816116c8e4365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204b5ee84a7c4263c4fad2f2357b32969\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD (Associate Minister for the Environment) (20:06)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just touch on a couple of those points. In regard to reinstituting land use change restrictions, no, we have no intention of doing that. The reality is that farmers have got new science, new knowledge, new systems to enable them to do things better now than they ever have before. The attitude has changed with farmers around the focus on sustainability. If we look at particularly Canterbury, yes, there were leaky soils, but interestingly enough, if you talk to farmers there, they\u2019ve actually grown their soil carbon through irrigation, through rotational grazing. They\u2019ve actually increased the soil carbon and the topsoil on those paddocks. They\u2019re not as leaky any more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe other thing is that, with precision irrigation, you\u2019ve got soil monitoring where you can see how much moisture is in the soil. You can manage your irrigation. You can even turn off individual sprinklers on that centre pivot irrigation so that you never get the soils beyond soil saturation points, unless there\u2019s a massive rainfall, which means that you\u2019re able to keep nutrients in the root zone, so it\u2019s growing; it\u2019s not leaching through the soil. These are some of the cool things that are happening on our farms up and down the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe key thing is that right now we\u2019re seeing in the arable sector that times are tough. They\u2019ve got a really challenging future in front of them, and some of them are electing\u2014you know, there\u2019s a lot of scaremongering around, \u201COh, Fonterra\u2019s forcing all these farmers to change, and the dairy industry is doing it.\u201D These are individual families who are making choices for their farms, for their family, on how they can have a better life, to be able to provide for their children and move forward. This is not some big industry scheme or some conspiracy like that. These are individual people making choices on their own farm, and we\u2019re going to enable them to do that, but at the same time we\u2019re going to be asking for better management than there has been in the past, and we expect to see that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022 data-id=\u00222bdb220f26d7f232d132729cef49d8d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222bdb220f26d7f232d132729cef49d8d8\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin) (20:09)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Still on this topic, as I know my friend Lan Pham will have many questions on this as well, as a former Canterbury regional councillor. I want to pick it up again. I did ask the Minister\u2014any Minister is welcome to answer this\u2014whether we should have swimmable rivers and what steps are being taken to improve freshwater quality. That answer Minister Hoggard just gave there was that everything\u2019s fine, don\u2019t worry about it, but then at the end there, he decided to say that something was happening, so I\u2019m interested in what that something is that might be happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI want to know if it is going to change the maps that I have on my wall that were provided by Ng\u0101i Tahu, which show the nitrate concentrations\u2014little red dots all around the best island, the South Island, that show how much nitrate pollution there is in Southland and Canterbury. What is he going to do about that, and does he think that there should be swimmable rivers? I\u2019ll leave it there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fa370c0016e740998a2816116c8e4365\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe48b17ba32ca416d7157bd4a5e266e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fa370c0016e740998a2816116c8e4365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe48b17ba32ca416d7157bd4a5e266e4\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD (Associate Minister for the Environment) (20:10)\u003C/span\u003E: Of course I believe there should be swimmable rivers. My daughters love swimming in the river beside our farm every summer. They\u2019re obviously not swimming in it today, because it\u2019s in flood and it\u2019d be rather stupid to do that. Sometimes, our measurements don\u2019t tell the real story. Often, you look at the E.coli graphs\u2014and I look at it for our river, and, yes, it shows the averages can be high, but that\u2019s in spikes; that\u2019s usually when it\u2019s in flood. That\u2019s not when we go swimming So, yep, it\u2019s important to have swimmable rivers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat\u2019s happening? You\u2019ve got farmers up and down the country, catchment care groups, who are doing a lot of work. In my own catchment\u2014you asked the question before about nature-based solutions, so a couple of things that are happening in my catchment: we\u2019ve got these detainment bunds that have been trialled in some of the hill country area. What that does is it slows the water flow down when you get downpours in the gullies, slows it down\u2014helps with flooding but also stops sediment, stops phosphorus going through. That\u2019s one solution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAnother one: bioreactor. A neighbour of mine\u2019s put a bioreactor in. What\u2019s a bioreactor? Basically, dig a big hole where water flows, fill it full of shavings. The water flows through those shavings, catches all the nitrogen, reduces it. And, as mentioned before, engineered wetlands\u2014brilliant solution. I\u2019ve seen a number of those around the country. What are we doing to support those? Well, through the work Minister Bishop\u2019s doing in the resource management reform, we\u2019re going to actually make it a permitted activity to build an engineered wetland. At the moment, I\u2019ve talked to a number of people who almost gave up doing it because of the resource consents they had to go through and all the drama they had to go through to actually build something that was good for the environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThese are some of the things we\u2019re doing, working with the catchment care groups. The attitude I see amongst farmers around trying to do the right thing, understanding where the problems are coming from and then thinking about what are some of the solutions to those problems, is impressive. It\u2019s an attitude we should all be getting behind and encouraging. Rather than having this debate of \u201COh, bloody farmers.\u201D this and that, actually get in behind it, let it move forward, and then we\u2019ll see changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203a9a78995df41d999aa5550770febd3\u0022 data-id=\u0022837919ff7d62017f9f35e2da5913653e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203a9a78995df41d999aa5550770febd3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022837919ff7d62017f9f35e2da5913653e\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green) (20:12)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Look, I do want to commend the attitude change. I think humans changing behaviours and mindsets is an absolutely crucial part of the way that we\u2019re actually going to turn this table, particularly when it comes to fresh water. Unfortunately, we\u2019ve been doing a lot of talking and a lot of attitude work for years, and, unfortunately, when we look at the actual statistics, the actual environmental statistics that our Minister for the Environment has within her own ministry, they\u2019re going backwards, and very concerningly so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI wanted to pick up particularly on fresh water when it comes to rural communities and their drinking water, because the Ministers have likely seen the research that came out of Auckland Uni recently which says that two-thirds of rural communities are struggling with contaminated water supplies. We know that this is an issue not only in private supplies but in things like schools across the country. What we\u2019ve heard really loud and clear throughout the resource management submission process is particularly from public health experts, policy experts that have said that without the hierarchy of Te Mana o te Wai, that sits so clearly in that national direction, communities\u2019 drinking-water sources risk worse pollution, and that\u2019s because there isn\u2019t enough weight in the law when it comes to something that\u2019s outside of that really clear direction that Te Mana o te Wai provides.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGiven this, what is the Minister\u2019s contemplation when it comes to changing this national direction? Does it mean that they are satisfied with, you know, polluted rivers getting worse, with drinking water getting more contaminated, and, particularly when it comes to our groundwater sources, that they\u2019re more and more at risk, and who do they anticipate will pay the cost of this? We know that a lot of councils around the country are actually having to face this massive challenge, and we know that their bills when it comes to, say, treating nitrates that are contaminating their drinking water are in the hundreds of millions\u2014if not billions, when it comes to Christchurch City Council. I\u2019m really keen to hear what specific measures are proposed to actually address this for rural communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u00225808013f39cd64779b9ccc2e5e934d77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225808013f39cd64779b9ccc2e5e934d77\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform) (20:15)\u003C/span\u003E: Let\u2019s just get a few things straight: number one, farmers are not the enemy in this country. Number two: you can improve the environment and grow the primary sector at the same time. Number three: our farmers are world leading and world class, and they deserve this committee\u2019s support, not condemnation. Number four: some of the biggest barriers to improving the environment in rural New Zealand are the Resource Management Act itself, which is why we are replacing it. And, number five, we should take a science-based approach and focus on innovation, which is precisely what this Government is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ELet me deal with a few of the questions raised. Number one, from Rachel Brooking: will the new local government system, which we haven\u2019t landed yet\u2014should it be based on a catchment-based approach? Yes, is the short answer, and we\u2019re doing quite a bit of thinking about that. Simon Upton, the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, in his inimitable, eloquent way, has been quite an advocate for that. We haven\u2019t landed any decisions around unitary authorities or regional councils. We obviously released the \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003ESimplifying Local Government\u003C/span\u003E reform document at the back end of last year; all the submissions have come in on that, and we\u2019re giving some consideration to that. It\u2019d be fair to say the feedback was\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022121929e841b7743ccf5c187c8a6831d1\u0022\u003EHon Member: \u003C/span\u003EMixed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296855046a6093a7294789fac90250ca7\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, yeah, it was mixed, to be fair. I mean, if you don\u2019t like regional councils, you were in favour, and if you were a regional councillor, you were, unsurprisingly, opposed to it. But they were sort of at either end of the spectrum; there\u2019s quite a bit of stuff in the middle. What\u2019s been quite interesting, just to dwell on that for 20 seconds, is it sort of ripped the scab off this awful, festering sore that is kind of local government, right? Everyone\u2019s gone, \u201CWell, actually 78 TLAs; you know, X, Y, Z number of regional councils; duplication. Are the regional plans superior to district plans? Which one has the most power?\u201D\u2014all of the sort of difficulties we see in the current system\u2014and it\u2019s actually prompted quite a lot of regions to go, \u201CYou know what, there\u2019s actually a better way here.\u201D, and that\u2019s been really interesting. To be honest, they want central government to act, so we\u2019re sort of giving some thinking about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELook, the previous Government recognised the problems here. Their approach was to do what Labour Governments often do, which is, you know, set up a three-year-long working group at vast public expense and issue a report which becomes the doorstop that I put on my office door to hold it open when everyone comes in for meetings. It\u2019s a bit like the old Royal Commission on Social Policy back in 1986: it was, like, 5 metres high, and it kept David Lange\u2019s door open\u2014and he\u2019s the one who issued it. But, anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESecond question: flood management and green infrastructure. The reason I asked about green infrastructure is people mean different things by it, right, because, you know, building a stopbank, like we\u2019re doing in the Hutt Valley at the moment, or lifting up the stopbank along the Hutt River to protect against a one-in-440-year flood, because the Hutt Valley\u2019s the most densely populated area of New Zealand on a flood plain\u2014well, that\u2019s green infrastructure, but that\u2019s just infrastructure. I mean, it\u2019s green in the sense that it\u2019s, you know, focused on resilience, but I would call that green infrastructure\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4305a012eb3cacf922284d9ffff446e\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: I think that\u2019s just good infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254a799a278d827b78082757c995e28c2\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, it\u2019s just good infrastructure. Well, that\u2019s sort of my point, right? I mean, like, everything\u2019s green at a level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere will be people in the ministry who are far more expert in this than me, and they will exist in the new system. Yes, we can issue national direction pursuant to the goals of the new Natural Environment Bill, assuming it becomes an Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOn the three waters: well, we sort of played all this out in the 2023 election. It\u2019s not that the Opposition at the time\u2014now Government\u2014disagreed with the idea of water reform. It\u2019s obviously a good thing to do, because as I said earlier, local government\u2019s been a disaster when it comes to managing three-waters infrastructure. We just disagreed with the approach of the Government of the day, which was to, basically\u2014I mean, it started with four mega-entities without any kind of choice of the local authorities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203a9a78995df41d999aa5550770febd3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdf2b951ece10d98c849a7977a564fd6\u0022\u003ELan Pham\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Chair. I\u2019m really interested in hearing from the Minister for the Environment on a number of questions about the Ministry for the Environment report. The Minister is on a sort of explanation about the three waters reform system. I just wonder if we could, please, address what\u2019s in front of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca71226847aeaa702c3c3b00829d2cd0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Look, it\u2019s been a wide-ranging discussion. Every speaker has gone well away from the period. I think that the Minister will be aware that he\u2019s using up a lot of his time\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207253671234f958911a9c5b749687ef9\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well, I was just responding to the question. I apologise to the committee for my loquaciousness. The Minister of Local Government has just entered the Chamber, and he might like to explain the rest of the story to the Government\u2019s three waters reforms, which put democracy back at the heart of local government. Anyway, everyone seems to want me to move on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIn response to the fourth question, on national direction on fresh water, the member knows, I think, that that is a priority for the Government, and we are working away on that, but we want to land the bills first. National direction, we\u2019ve consulted on it but that will flow\u2014flow\u2014in due course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221602e5fb8214ab9405101a2b6ba66fae\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I just note that there\u2019s 10 minutes left to go. I\u2019ll take a question from Rachel Brooking. [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E] It\u2019s just we\u2019ve got three Ministers now who are covering a lot of the same ground, I might say, from different angles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022 data-id=\u002239c2d41a63013082d8e6c69a4f3d3dd9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239c2d41a63013082d8e6c69a4f3d3dd9\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin) (20:21)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ll be quick. I have a number of questions. One is for Mr Bishop, who said something about science\u2014\u201CWe\u2019re going to be science based.\u201D\u2014and that something relates to innovation. This was in the context of the previous discussion with Minister Hoggard about protecting our waterways and having swimmable rivers. Can the Government provide any comfort that saying we\u2019re waiting for innovation does not mean that we are not having limits that must be followed? When I hear that, that is my concern. That\u2019s one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe second one is a comment. We\u2019re not hating on farmers; it sounds like the Government is hating on councils, though. We haven\u2019t said anything along those lines. On farm plans, I am interested, on page 8 of the review, we asked what the role of the farm plan is; if it\u2019s to replace resource consents or not, how the ministry sees this. They said that it is to be an enabling tool in comparison to having a resource consent, which it described as a more rigid, hard tool. Do you have both a farm plan and a resource consent? What is the Minister\u2019s view on that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Minister has also traversed\u2014looking at Minister Hoggard here\u2014catchment groups and some of the good work that we know about from catchment groups. Does he see them as having a regulatory function at all?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3c5982939cc7ef012500c41c32d7004\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3c5982939cc7ef012500c41c32d7004\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG (Minister for the Environment) (20:22)\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to respond to Lan Pham\u2019s request for me to actually take a call. I\u2019ve been trying, but I have some very verbose colleagues. Look, I do want to talk to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226e99b0583dc9d7894ede230556af2c7\u0022\u003EHon Members: \u003C/span\u003EHa, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022046f3ca96bc6ef03b316d1e40695fc0a\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re very eloquent and articulate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e48dff21e685cd5cc530022e27950878\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: No one took a point of order on that!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022846212b398de79b9ffd1fca5020d5070\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG\u003C/span\u003E: The member refers, of course, to our freshwater report that was released just a matter of weeks ago, I think, on the day that I got told that I had this ministerial warrant, so I\u2019ve had to think fast. Look, I think it\u2019s really important to acknowledge that this report is neither a win nor a loss; it\u2019s quite a balanced report. We do need to note that of the 998 groundwater monitoring sites, 45 percent had E. coli concentrations above the maximum acceptable levels of drinking water at least once across a five-year period. It is acknowledged in the report that, together, these indicators show that, while some aspects of freshwater quality and ecosystem health are good and improving, others are deteriorating, which corroborates my earlier point. That, of course, reinforces the need to view fresh water as an interconnected system where multiple pressures accumulate and interact over time. Again, I think we all acknowledge that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELook, again, some key statistics that have, I think, been lost in the commentary are that the long-term trends, the 20-year nitrogen trends\u2014that\u2019s all forms of nitrogen\u2014do show improvement when you compare this 2026 report to 2023. Yes, worsening sites are reduced from 41 percent to 32 percent. Again, these aren\u2019t amazing results, nor are they bad. They are indicating improvement. We do know that improvements to groundwater, particularly deep-seated aquifers, do take time to present themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThen, again, to respond to the questions about what we are doing to improve fresh water: of course, no one in this Chamber would disagree that protecting drinking-water sources is an imperative public health issue. Again, we know that rising nitrate concentrations in some areas do give rise to growing public concern, and quite rightly so, but of course we have to consult, we have to get this thing right. We did consult on requiring that source water mapping, so councils and landowners would be clear about where activities can be, particularly putting drinking-water supplies at risk, and therefore the appropriate management can then take place. Decisions on that freshwater direction, as the Hon Chris Bishop has alluded to, will be made in the near future. The new legislation will require limits for human health and fresh water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAgain, I do want to push back on this rhetoric that we\u2019re going to create this wild west and everyone can be pouring effluent into our water streams. That is simply not the case. As the member will know perfectly well, as a former regional councillor in Canterbury, the Avon River and the Heathcote River, two urban waterways, are amongst the most polluted in the district. Of course, limits will need to be set, and they will be informed by relevant health guidelines to prevent that significant and irreversible harm to people in the communities, which we\u2019ve seen in the likes of the Hawke\u2019s Bay when that Havelock North outbreak occurred.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI do want to reaffirm to the committee that we are progressing these improvements. We look forward to presenting them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203a9a78995df41d999aa5550770febd3\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7e788c4d21334b9721e25461bb904f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203a9a78995df41d999aa5550770febd3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7e788c4d21334b9721e25461bb904f9\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green) (20:26)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. There\u2019s so much to respond to in that, but I really want to move on to climate adaptation because that is such a key part of the work. From what we\u2019ve seen in recent days, particularly here around the Greater Wellington and Wairarapa regions\u2014and also up in the Manawat\u016B, I must add\u2014it\u2019s very real, the challenges that communities are facing. What I was really concerned to see with the annual review is that there\u2019s this strategic priority that says it will strengthen the resilience of communities, businesses, and places to climate change and natural hazards. What is really clear is that there isn\u2019t actually much progress in this area, as far as I can see at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere was a report that was commissioned by the previous Government, a report on the Expert Working Group On Managed Retreat. The recommendations in that have been, unfortunately, ignored, to be replaced by a short report that one member on the working group described as \u201Cone of the most philosophically misguided, morally questionable, administratively inept, and politically na\u00EFve documents\u201D that he\u2019d read in many years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EDoes the Minister consider that meaningful progress is actually being made when it comes to not building in bad areas, in terms of having communities actually have discussions and face the realities around managed retreat, given that the Minister of Climate Change has said there are no plans to actually speed up the decisions around who will pay and who will protect or move these communities threatened by climate change hazards? We\u2019re really seeing this around and across the country, increasingly so. We really would like some feedback from the Minister around how this objective will be achieved when protections for things like forests and wetlands, those natural infrastructure protections when it comes to climate mitigation adaptation, are actively being weakened by the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fa370c0016e740998a2816116c8e4365\u0022 data-id=\u00226f166cf4b9fd5d3c1e45c0e267e22813\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fa370c0016e740998a2816116c8e4365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f166cf4b9fd5d3c1e45c0e267e22813\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD (Associate Minister for the Environment) (20:29)\u003C/span\u003E: Just quickly, in response to the Hon Rachel Brooking\u2019s question, in terms of farm plans\u2014\u201CWill we still need consents?\u201D\u2014I would think there would still be a need for a consent when you are having a water take, so trying to manage those allocation-type regimes. Where it comes to things like, in some regions, there having to be a consent for winter grazing, I believe a farm plan would be a much more useful tool to replace those consents. At a farm I was on a couple of weeks ago, it cost them $40,000 to get that consent; an absolutely ridiculous waste of money for a very simple process where they can detail what actions they are going to take to mitigate the impact from that practice. They can do that through the farm plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ETo your second question, catchment groups, no, I don\u2019t see a role for them as a regulator. They are better served as a sort of ground-up, community action. Getting them involved with regulatory powers would probably drive the farmers away from them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed3875dab649f518f3f342eb51dfdd22\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, our time with the Minister for the Environment has ended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022564d2d1cf8939c60c9d4ade4e674e593\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u2014Annual Review Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u00221b8afa518aa47535242b4a7277706c16\u0022\u003EClimate Change\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022366ec6c4d4c5636f7f6c7d0dd058ec88\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister of Climate Change is now available for 30 minutes to respond to the members\u2019 questions. Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c562dc86e974914b8878595e580f138\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2a963876f58e2b7f20381610ca45794\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c562dc86e974914b8878595e580f138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2a963876f58e2b7f20381610ca45794\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (Chairperson of the Environment Committee) (20:30)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I rise to introduce the Climate Change Commission annual review. I\u2019d just like to thank the Environment Committee members for the work on this report\u2014a very hard-working committee. Overall, we were satisfied with the commission\u2019s performance in 2024-25. The commission\u2019s revenue was $14.83 million for 2024-25, and its total expenditure was $16.06 million, resulting in a deficit of $1.22 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe heard from the commission about its role in providing independent advice for reducing greenhouse gas emissions. Obviously, under the Climate Change Response Act, New Zealand is very committed to reaching net zero emissions of all greenhouse gas emissions by 2050. This was well traversed through our session with the Climate Change Commission. We spoke about the work being done to reduce emissions, and it was positive to hear that emissions reduction technologies have become available and affordable at a faster rate than expected, offering more opportunities to mitigate these effects. The commission also noted that the methodology for measuring emissions in New Zealand has improved since 2019, which was positive to hear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe commission drew our attention to new technologies, such as bolus being developed by Ruminant Biotech, which would inhibit methane production in farm animals. It was really interesting to hear about these new advancements in technology, which, of course, are going to reduce agricultural emissions. The commission said one challenge was ensuring that farmers are supported to deploy the new technologies on farm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe also spoke about the stockpiles of coal in New Zealand and the work being done to transition away from fossil fuels and towards renewable energy sources, which we spoke about, you know, being very sufficient, this transition. Also, we did touch on the monitoring progress to meet the emissions budget, which, of course, was a very topical conversation. The commission published its first emissions reduction monitoring report in July 2024. It also began work on its second emissions reduction monitoring report in 2024-25, which it published in July 2025. The commission\u2019s latest report found that New Zealand is likely to meet its first emissions budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe also spoke about the consenting regime for renewable energy projects and the barriers that we\u2019re seeing in getting renewable energy projects online faster\u2014it taking too long for the consents. It was agreed that there are opportunities to remove consenting barriers for renewable energy, and of course, this would pose a very positive move to bring renewable energy on a lot faster in New Zealand, with a better consenting regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe also spoke about transport. The commission said there are opportunities to reduce emissions in the transport sector, especially given that electric vehicle batteries have become cheaper and we\u2019re moving towards more electrification, which, of course, is positive for reducing our emissions. We heard about trade; we heard that the commission is planning more work to analyse the effects that climate change could have on trade.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt was very interesting, during the process, to look at all of the hard work that has been done to meet our climate emissions and reduce those emissions. We are certainly looking forward to the Minister of Climate Change\u2019s responses tonight and to the questions that are presented. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022 data-id=\u002277c0e81bec40fc2caa5c1f04dea686a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277c0e81bec40fc2caa5c1f04dea686a0\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin) (20:35)\u003C/span\u003E: I came into Parliament with the Hon Simon Watts in 2020. When we entered Parliament, of course, the Labour-led Government had already passed the zero carbon Act and established the Climate Change Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhen Labour was in Government in that 2020 year, we had many, many programmes to decarbonise our economy\u2014that is, to drive emissions down. We had a Climate Emergency Response Fund and the Government Investment in Decarbonising Industry Fund, and an emissions reduction plan with hundreds of different actions within it. In addition, we had in our 2020 manifesto that we would legislate for climate adaptation and do the hard work on working out where people need to move and how that happens. I reference that because it\u2019s become very relevant recently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy question is, though: given that his Government has either watered down those different actions or got rid of them entirely and has not progressed legislation on climate adaptation, does he regret not undertaking these actions that would have decreased New Zealanders\u2019 reliance on foreign fossil fuels?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7530e4228b686eb8bd8635bf702d408\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7530e4228b686eb8bd8635bf702d408\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green) (20:37)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Just following on from the questioning line by my colleague the Hon Rachel Brooking, I\u2019m curious to see a definition of \u201Csuccess\u201D from the Minister of Climate Change. What does success look like in terms of successful initiatives, in terms of adaptation, and in terms of mitigation? What does success look like for himself, as climate Minister, and for this wider Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI have some specific question lines I want to ask around the nationally determined contribution, as well. Does this Government intend to meet all of New Zealand\u2019s nationally determined contribution domestically, or is it intended that the contribution be met partly through international contributions? Is the Minister and the Government asserting that it\u2019s going to be met purely through domestic negations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to also turn to the Greenhouse Gas Inventory. I want to really applaud the work that the team at the Ministry for the Environment has done in putting that together. I was actually involved in the compilation of the 2023 Greenhouse Gas Inventory; I was listed as a technical contributor there, so I know how much work and how much effort it takes to assemble those things. My question around the Greenhouse Gas Inventory is that, obviously, it\u2019s encouraging to see that the gross emissions of New Zealand have declined a little bit in this period, but I want the Minister to say who he attributes the decrease of that to? Does he attribute that to the success of the previous Government, or does he attribute that to initiatives that the Government set? The debate will take on quite a different tenor depending on who the Minister attributes blame and success to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to turn, also, to the national adaptation plan and to the adaptation framework. Please, can the Minister clarify whether the Government still intends the national adaptation plan to still be operational or whether the Minister regards the national adaptation framework to supersede the national adaptation plan? I have some follow-up questions based on that, but those are my questions for now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022 data-id=\u0022666cf019eb1ae4cf9bd177721a2cdfc2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022666cf019eb1ae4cf9bd177721a2cdfc2\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Climate Change) (20:40)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much for those questions and for the introduction from the Environment Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWorking our way through the questions, \u201CDoes the Minister regret taking action in regards to that?\u201D Well, what I don\u2019t regret is the banning of oil and gas which has put us into this situation where we now need to look to import liquefied natural gas (LNG). The good thing about importing LNG is it\u2019s actually less emissions than coal which is, ironically, what the last Government looked to do; they had a strategy of importation of Indonesian coal at the expense of domestic gas at a higher emissions profile. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EQuestions around \u201Cdefinition of success\u201D\u2014well, first and foremost, in regards to mitigation, 2024 had the lowest emissions on record since 1998. So how do you define success? Well, that\u2019s probably a good place to start. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn regards to adaptation, we\u2019ve introduced and will be introducing legislation in regards to the national adaptation framework before the election. That is a significant priority and that is important work across party lines, to be fair, in the context of an enduring framework, to deal with one of our most significant issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn regards to the targets, this Government is committed to all of the climate change targets, both domestic and international, and we do have a focus on domestic emissions reduction, first and foremost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn regards to attribution of success\u2014what Government? Well, surprisingly, on this side of the House, we actually attribute success and progress in this country to New Zealand households and businesses. They\u2019re the ones who are doing the hard work, they\u2019re the ones that are reducing emissions\u2014not, with respect, the 120 or so of us sitting in this room\u2014households and businesses; Kiwis. So that\u2019s who I attribute success to around emissions reduction, and the adaptation plan is the major focus for us as we move forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022 data-id=\u002298fc5dc160f7cc47b5f670d37e8e7b3b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298fc5dc160f7cc47b5f670d37e8e7b3b\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour) (20:41)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. My colleague Rachel Brooking in her introductory comments to the session, talked about some of what the previous Labour Government had done in this space in terms of addressing climate change. I\u2019ve got a few questions for the Minister of Climate Change around one specific scheme, which is the Clean Car Discount. That was, of course, the scheme that was put in place to reduce transport emissions by subsidising low emissions vehicles. We know that that\u2019s led to a significant increase in the uptake of electric vehicles as well, and a 14.4 percent reduction in average carbon dioxide emissions from new and used imports before the scheme was scrapped by this Minister\u2019s Government, back in 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI want to know whether the Minister regrets scrapping the Clean Car Discount scheme, a decision that his own officials have said will add 1.1 to 2.2 million tonnes of carbon dioxide to New Zealand\u2019s roads by 2050. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220838e5f9bac748d2a59aea595e5226a0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8e17fa95f43d6ef084c8919a25e8011\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Makes plant grow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226607ff4acf4ee4a81dc7f8e7463326b2\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN\u003C/span\u003E: That is from the Ministry of Transport\u2019s data. So if members opposite want to say that\u2019s not true, I\u2019m not sure what mis- and disinformation they\u2019re wanting to spread. In addition to that, the Ministry of Transport\u2019s own advice has clearly pointed to the fact that the costs of scrapping this particular scheme are double the benefits of the scheme. I would like to know from the Minister why he made the decision to override his own officials\u2019 advice on this and whether he has received any other advice to this point. Also, the Climate Change Commission has said that cheaper EV batteries mean that there are real opportunities to cut transport emissions, and I\u2019d like to know from the Minister what he\u2019s doing to capture them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022 data-id=\u00222410a33935fc7ea3aa0fb1970dc0aa1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222410a33935fc7ea3aa0fb1970dc0aa1a\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin) (20:44)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve got two different lines of questioning that I\u2019ll go down. The first is in response to the response of the Minister of Climate Change, and that is that, apparently, everything would be fine; we would have no reliance on foreign fossil fuels if there wasn\u2019t a ban on exploration. I want to know if the Minister has any advice saying that, one, and two, if he understands that there is a difference between exploration and actually finding and then taking that fossil fuel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESecondly, wouldn\u2019t electrification, instead of exploring and then finding and then recovering a fossil fuel, be quicker? Then my last question on this line is: does he agree with Simon Court from the ACT party who appeared to be saying, in heckling just before, that an increase in carbon dioxide emissions is somehow positive because it makes plants grow? I think that is what he was saying. Does Minister Watts agree with that? Those are my mitigation, decarbonisation questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EShifting, now, to adaptation but, in fact, I\u2019m not; these questions are about flood plains and building new buildings on flood plains. It\u2019s not about the tricky issue that a managed retreat or anything like that would need to deal with, where there\u2019s existing housing on flood plains but when, in fact, this Government is enabling more building on flood plains. So some questions there: one, where is the promised national flood map? Secondly, I want to know if he agrees with what the Prime Minister said in answer to John Campbell on \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EMorning Report\u003C/span\u003E on Monday 13 April. John Campbell said, \u201CAround 675,000 people or 14 percent of the population live in areas prone to flooding. What have you got for them?\u201D The Prime Minister responded, \u201CWell, again, that\u2019s why we\u2019ve got to work on a national flood plan, national adaptation framework.\u201D Then he said some other things and then he said, \u201CMake sure we\u2019re not doing dumb stuff, for example building back into flood plains.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s that statement that I\u2019m interested in, Minister: not doing dumb stuff, for example, building back into flood plains, because we have just seen the fast-track approval of an enormous, enormous development of over 4,000 houses and a number of retirement homes and all sorts of other things at Sunfield, which everybody acknowledges is on a flood plain. So how does that statement of the Prime Minister\u2014we\u2019re not doing dumb stuff, for example, building back into flood plains\u2014make any sense when this Government\u2019s fast track has just approved an enormous development of new houses in a flood plain? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2fcda793ac5b968a5bdc7293f481542\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2fcda793ac5b968a5bdc7293f481542\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Climate Change) (20:47)\u003C/span\u003E: Thanks for those questions. In regard to the points around the clean car or EV subsidy, this Government has focused and is focusing on a least cost approach versus what was, in effect, a ute tax by the prior Government. The emissions trading scheme is the key tool which we use for emissions reduction and our focus as a Government is around enabling infrastructure. So you would have seen the announcements around EV charging network, which is a key issue around people\u2019s concerns around ability to charge those vehicles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn regard to the flood map, the work is under way. We have commissioned a party to prepare those maps. It will be ready, in terms of the first part of that, by the end of this year, the beginning of next year. In regard to the preparation of adaptation plans, the legislation that we\u2019ll be looking to pass will require local government to prepare adaptation plans in high risk areas which will mitigate the key issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn regard to energy, well, the reality is, when you don\u2019t look for something, you don\u2019t find it and that\u2019s the reality with what happened with the last Government around stopping oil and gas exploration. We now have less and not sufficient molecules to run industry and also make electricity in a dry year. Coal is not sufficient to cover us in a dry year. That\u2019s why we need to import liquefied natural gas (LNG). We did consider 11 other options in regard to covering that dry year risk. You cannot do anything via renewables in the size and scale of energy required to cover that dry year risk, which is in winter, which surprisingly doesn\u2019t have as much sun as summer. That\u2019s the reality of why we\u2019re focusing on LNG importation. We need that solution now. If we have a dry year next year, the ability to cover that because of the reduced amount of gas we have will mean that 2024 was an easy ride. That\u2019s because of the legacy of the last Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022 data-id=\u00222d71ff4737db1a4401cebdcccaeacad2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d71ff4737db1a4401cebdcccaeacad2\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green) (20:49)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Just wanted to follow on the questioning by the Hon Rachel Brooking around the issue of whether the fossil fuel exploration makes the country more resilient and makes the price of energy cheaper in New Zealand, when we do drill. Is the Minister of Climate Change aware that in the United States of America\u2014which is one of the biggest oil drillers and oil explorers in the world; they\u2019re one of the people that produce the most fossil fuels\u2014that the gas prices have increased by 35 percent since the beginning of the Iran war and, in New Zealand, which is not at all a big producer of fossil fuels, that gas prices have only increased by 20 percent? So it\u2019s somewhat, I guess, incorrect to assert that just because a country is creating its own fossil fuels that they\u2019re somehow not still dependent on an international market, but as the members opposite are perfectly aware, fossil fuels are actually an international good so the price of it is still set internationally. Just because we grow agricultural products here in New Zealand hasn\u2019t stopped our food from being really expensive and the price of our groceries going far, far too high\u2014higher than it should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy second point is on the issue of the national adaptation framework: is the Minister concerned that by moving to the national adaptation framework, they\u2019ve, essentially, abandoned the initiatives that were supposed to be in the national adaptation plan? That is, is the Minister concerned that the national adaptation framework, laudable as it is in its work to produce flood mapping\u2014rural initiatives that were highlighted in the national adaptation plan in the first place, so wouldn\u2019t it have made more sense to just continue on with the existing national adaptation plan and not scrap a lot of the initiatives that were actually in that instead of starting from scratch and just going with the national adaptation framework? Again, we do support the flood mapping, but it is only one dimension of the work that was already in the national adaptation planning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI believe I\u2019m coming to the end of my five-minute allocation, but thank you for the consideration, Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220838e5f9bac748d2a59aea595e5226a0\u0022 data-id=\u00221f108aab59af6074a60f47a21629e10d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220838e5f9bac748d2a59aea595e5226a0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f108aab59af6074a60f47a21629e10d\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT) (20:51)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, I\u2019m interested in your views on how we might ensure that New Zealand\u2019s major industries that are emissions intensive and trade exposed are supported through this difficult time where energy prices have risen significantly, whether it\u2019s natural gas, that many of them depend on, or electricity, which many of them depend on. Many of them have converted from gas or other petroleum hydrocarbon fuels, including coal, into more sustainable energy production but, of course, if you\u2019re one of the half-dozen industries in New Zealand, like cement manufacturing, steel manufacturing, aluminium, or fertiliser manufacturing, making ammonia-urea fertiliser from natural gas in Taranaki\u2014which supplies somewhere around 25 to 30 percent of all of the nitrogen fertiliser used on New Zealand\u2019s farms\u2014well, somebody else could bring that product in from overseas, and they don\u2019t pay a carbon price if it\u2019s made in Vietnam, if it\u2019s made in China, or if it\u2019s made in Malaysia or Indonesia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMinister, I\u2019m interested in what your views are on how these industries might be supported both now and in the future, given that it\u2019s highly unlikely that their competitors in those countries will ever face a carbon price. New Zealand has done its part by setting targets and working hard to meet them for emissions budgets, putting a price on carbon through the emissions trading scheme (ETS) but in the end, it seems that some of these industries will be faced with costs, particularly when it comes to the cost of carbon or buying electricity that factors in a carbon price if it\u2019s thermal electricity produced from gas and coal. These additional costs, not faced by competitors overseas, mean that it may become, in the future, uneconomic to manufacture these important industrial products in New Zealand\u2014cement, steel, aluminium, and fertiliser. Of course, fertiliser has never been so vital when our international supply chain is interrupted, as it has been because of America\u2019s important action in the Middle East to secure the sea lanes and deny the ability of the Iranian regime to obtain a nuclear weapon. Sometimes, New Zealand just has to roll with geopolitical events, whether we\u2019re prepared for them or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s clear: it\u2019s never been more important that New Zealand has its own manufacturing base to manufacture these important commodities, whether they be aluminium, steel, urea fertiliser made from natural gas and, of course, many other industries that depend on burning coal or gas or producing carbon dioxide as an emission. Minister, I\u2019m interested: how do you think New Zealand, the Government, and the regulatory system should support these vital industrials now and into the future? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022 data-id=\u0022411cd39a856fda2a65eeb35210be1882\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022411cd39a856fda2a65eeb35210be1882\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Climate Change) (20:55)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I just want to come back to the questions in regard to the gas situation in New Zealand. I want to be really clear that this is not a price issue; this is a lack of molecules issue. We do not have the gas\u2014sufficient gas\u2014to run the industrials that Under-Secretary Court was referring to; that\u2019s the problem, and because we don\u2019t look and stopped looking for gas for six years, surprisingly we haven\u2019t found any. That is the reality. We have 25 percent less gas today than what we had one year ago in this country. It is a fundamental and critical issue for this country and the only feasible option, in the short term, is the importation of liquefied natural gas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ENow, Under-Secretary Court raises the point: we want to protect those industrial businesses that are manufacturing in New Zealand because, the reality is, if they shut down and close and we import cement, for example\u2014and the emissions profile of cement made overseas is significantly higher in terms of global emissions than what it is making it here at home, and so the mechanisms to support those industries, first and foremost, need security of supply of the fuel they need to make the product, which is gas, which we are moving our way through. We also need medium- and long-term solutions, as well, but the reality is if you do not have the fuel\u2014which is our problem as a country\u2014then you cannot make electricity, you cannot make glass, you cannot make steel, and you cannot deal with the reality of the geopolitical pressure that you are in. Because if the fuel and the supply chain shut and you haven\u2019t got domestic production, you do not have options and, therefore, you do not have security, in terms of national security, and that\u2019s why energy security is national security.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b429284be65162abc87f081b58618f66\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b429284be65162abc87f081b58618f66\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green) (20:57)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I wonder, Minister, if you can respond to the glib and trivialising comments of Simon Court, who thinks that the existential challenge of humanity is merely a good way to help make plants grow? . And I wonder if you have reflected on the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220838e5f9bac748d2a59aea595e5226a0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6126bdb38cfdc15011753571246a839\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: What?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa1691289e89afa9c3139bf99e2117c0\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s what he said: \u201CCarbon dioxide makes plants grow.\u201D I wonder if you have reflected on the fact that the biggest threat to the production of food over the coming century is climate change and the extreme effects of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA couple of specific questions, Minister: are you aware that there are still thousands of new households having gas put into them for their appliances and for their hot water? I wonder: what is the wisdom of allowing new-build houses and buildings to be reticulated with fossil gas given the supply issues and given there are things that are more urgent that we need to use the remaining gas we have with?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe other comment you made, Minister, was about \u201CIf we start looking for oil and gas, we\u2019re not going to find any.\u201D Well, is the Minister aware that from 2007 there was a steady decline in our gas supply and every major oil and gas company in the world came and had a look here and found nothing, before the ban came into place in 2018? Why would you be spending $200 million on subsidising gas exploration, when you could be spending that money on decarbonising? That\u2019s a question: why are you spending $200 million\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022784f4e929aed4ea6a05d1a10add6eccb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6929c773cb278f934cfdeaf5bd4884d\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: We haven\u2019t spent it and it is a co-investment. You\u2019re welcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e61ec6f25701a41bbac77b5b7dfaa59\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Why are you not co-investing on renewables\u2014why are you not co-investing on renewables?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EFinal question, Minister: are you aware, on the question of cement, that our local cement manufacturers, who have to pay the emissions trading scheme (ETS), are currently being undercut by imported cement that doesn\u2019t have to pay the ETS? What are your strategies for dealing with that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022591fc9f3303c01c9007abf28fea7b843\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, our time with the Minister of Climate Change has ended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ea6d7b3cd4118fc76827a824577038b7\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u2014Annual Review Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c2a3574edc0393807b6f52e73a3af982\u0022\u003EEnergy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022994eae39ba9844747eb920347155d3dc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister for Energy will be here for 20 minutes to respond to members\u2019 questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022 data-id=\u00220860073de48efd5a1a60f7952ed04a5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220860073de48efd5a1a60f7952ed04a5e\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram) (21:00)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. There\u2019s a number of questions outstanding from where we left off last time, and I wonder if Ministers have had a chance. In particular, I\u2019m very interested to know what the balance of the petroleum or engine fuel monitoring levy memorandum account is as of today. That would be something that it would be useful to find out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOne of the things we spent quite a bit of time on before we had a hiatus in this debate was talking about the liquefied natural gas (LNG) facility and asking the Minister questions about the proposed LNG facility. Now, in the last couple of weeks, the new Minister and, indeed, the Prime Minister have made comments to the effect\u2014in light of everything that\u2019s happened in the world\u2014that there will be strong scrutiny and the business case will need to stack up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, one of the things that the previous Minister for Energy said, and is on record as saying, is, \u201CThere is no plan B. There is only LNG. We don\u2019t have a plan B.\u201D What I want to know from the Minister is what work he has put into place to ensure that there is a plan\u00A0B, given that the previous Minister explicitly said there was no plan B, and given that that analysis wasn\u2019t completed in the documentation that was released around the LNG facility material, in terms of the thorough consideration of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt would be useful to the committee if the Minister were to elucidate on what the plan\u00A0B was, because I think everyone can see the skyrocketing cost of LNG around the world. We and many other people at the time of the Government\u2019s announcement of an LNG import facility said that this made New Zealand susceptible to any spikes in global pricing. Then, only a few weeks later, we have seen what is happening with LNG supply tightening around the globe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also be interested to know from the Minister whether it is still his intention that there be a signed contract by July 2026, in terms of this. One of the things that the Minister addressed but certainly didn\u2019t answer is whether it is still his intention that the final decision on the commercial decision will lie with Ministers\u2014that it won\u2019t be officials who make that call but that there will be Ministers with powers to act who will make that final decision. That certainly was the process that was spelt out in the previous Minister\u2019s Cabinet paper, so we\u2019d be keen to know what that is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also be keen to know from the Minister whether any further work has been done since questions were asked of the previous Minister on what we could do to ensure that any cost savings would be passed through to consumers. The previous Minister claimed that would be the work and the Electricity Authority had the powers in order to do that, but one of the things when we had the annual review of the Electricity Authority, when they came to select committee, was that they did say that, while they monitor prices closely and can influence outcomes through market design and competition, they cannot directly dictate retail electricity prices. Therefore, in terms of the mechanisms to ensure that any cost savings would be passed through to consumers, what the authority came to the select committee and said certainly didn\u2019t stack up with the claims that the previous Minister had been making. I would like to know what work the current Minister has under way, and if this is to go ahead and, indeed, if there are savings to be had, how we will ensure that these get passed on to consumers, because this is by no means anything that would be guaranteed and that you would expect in terms of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOne of the things I\u2019d also be keen to know from the Minister is whether or not he is actively considering funding for solar\u2014we know that the previous Minister had tried to get funding for various solar initiatives\u2014and whether or not he has had advice around whether or not it is the cost of capital that is the biggest impediment. I know the Minister has pointed to other things they\u2019ve done around consenting, and all these kinds of things, but addressing the capital constraint that people have in terms of solar roll-out and whether that is something the Government is actively considering there. I would also like to know if the Minister\u2014[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003ETime expired\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b3410b728cb84eb295c253e2648ca0c8\u0022 data-id=\u0022033f3de5252bff53e123de3d1f253950\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b3410b728cb84eb295c253e2648ca0c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022033f3de5252bff53e123de3d1f253950\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green) (21:05)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair, and I appreciate that the Minister may have some responses to my colleague Megan Woods, because I think they were very important questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI also understand that we have real issues with energy hardship at the moment, so I\u2019m interested in the Minister explaining where the $178 million funding cut from the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority, which provided funding for hot water heating, low-cost energy efficient measures, an LED lighting scheme, and community-focused outreach programmes to target hard-to-reach households\u2014how has that affected those hard-to-reach households and those wh\u0101nau in energy hardship, and what evaluation of impact the Government is doing. That\u2019s one lot of questions I\u2019d really like an answer to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFollowing on from that, in the face of that significantly increasing energy hardship, I\u2019ve got a graph here that was just presented at the energy hardship hui in Auckland today by Ian McChesney, who had to use his own funds to dig through the stats to dig it out. We can see that there are now 200,000 homes, households, and wh\u0101nau who cannot afford to keep their dwelling adequately warm. My question here is: did the Minister consider funding the establishment of an energy wellbeing network, as proposed by those working on the front line delivering energy services to households and communities across the country, and, if not, why not? Now that we know people are really suffering, people are having to choose between heating and eating, will he reconsider it now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022420f72e8bcc84c869a366ff712af8e49\u0022 data-id=\u0022967f575cceff80b7ff8755ebfa618eaa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022420f72e8bcc84c869a366ff712af8e49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022967f575cceff80b7ff8755ebfa618eaa\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Hauraki-Waikato) (21:07)\u003C/span\u003E: \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003ET\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka\u003C/span\u003E. My question is involving energy poverty. The Climate Change Commission says renewable energy is a cheaper form of electricity generation in the long term, so my question is: if renewable energy is cheaper, why are wh\u0101nau still paying the price for delayed investment and continued dependence on fossil fuels?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003ET\u0113tehi atu o \u0101ku p\u0101tai\u003C/span\u003E\u2014another question that I have is: will this Government invest in solar farms such as the new solar farm in Ng\u0101ti Naho that has an ongoing relationship with Maurea Marae within Hauraki-Waikato?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220838e5f9bac748d2a59aea595e5226a0\u0022 data-id=\u0022573d5c927547db847353b2102a17c2c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220838e5f9bac748d2a59aea595e5226a0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022573d5c927547db847353b2102a17c2c5\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT) (21:07)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, given the amount of attention that the Government\u2019s announced investment in an LNG import terminal in Taranaki has got from business, from the electricity sector, and from major energy users, I\u2019m wondering\u2014given that the Hon Megan Woods, a former energy Minister, was one of the people who came up with the idea to ban oil and gas exploration\u2014firstly, Minister, do you think it would have been helpful to have planned and budgeted for an LNG terminal at the time that banning New Zealand indigenous gas exploration was announced, so we had a back-up transition fuel? Do you think it might have been helpful to maybe, I don\u2019t know, cover your bases?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ESecondly, Minister, given the challenges that this Government faced and you as Minister faced around options for a dry year when you took on the role as energy Minister, what plan B was there? Isn\u2019t it the case that the LNG import terminal is actually the worst of a very long list of poor options that are a gift from the previous Government to the people of New Zealand by banning oil and gas exploration, providing absolutely nothing but some taxpayer handouts to big business for energy transition, and leaving all of those hard-to-abate industries like bread-making\u2014bread-making in ovens the size of this Chamber\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234aac4d348e07ebfab11bd007b7b07d1\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Unlike the handouts to the oil and gas industry from this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220838e5f9bac748d2a59aea595e5226a0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b963b36031c42a45afad76f70c3d212\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014exclusively dependent on natural gas with no transition plan. Here\u2019s the Hon Megan Woods chirping in from the sidelines as if she doesn\u2019t have the black ash of the arsonist all over her hands. Minister, I\u2019m interested: was there any alternative, or is this the only solution that can possibly solve the dry-year risk and help us secure New Zealand\u2019s energy future right now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022 data-id=\u0022d087d68e2e0b8f3fdc20ade4674367b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d087d68e2e0b8f3fdc20ade4674367b2\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister for Energy) (21:10)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair, I thank the members for their questions, and I\u2019ll take the member Simon Court\u2019s and the Hon Megan Woods\u2019 questions in relation to liquefied natural gas (LNG) together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe reality is that the last Government made that decision simply to get a bumper sticker on a car and to get a headline in Paris, so they could look like they were doing something about climate change, but ultimately they\u2019ve left New Zealand high and dry, and the way I\u2019ve described their plan is \u201CHope it will rain, hope it will rain.\u201D The energy policy of the previous Minister was to hope it would rain. The reality is that the year we became Government, it didn\u2019t rain, and we saw the consequences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d8609c612411686d517d0f9b09b28\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0ffd3a857a627732ca6f3102175c8d1\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: $800 a megawatt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022952e42a0e68e4f919406e9660491f8a0\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Eight hundred dollars a megawatt hour because the lakes were dry, the wind wasn\u2019t blowing, and it was the middle of winter. That is the consequence of not having enough gas\u2014the gas that they banned the exploration of. The consequences of their decisions are before our very eyes, yet they still refuse to change their approach and actually see gas as a transition fuel and see the opportunity that comes through it. Now, we\u2019re working through a procurement process with LNG, and we will be making decisions once that procurement process has been through. Ultimately, the answers to the members\u2019 questions will of course be dealt with as part of that process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn relation to the member Scott Willis\u2019 questions about energy hardship, we have a Community Renewable Energy Fund to support energy education and communities. There are funds there which do provide support, but ultimately what we need to see is a competitive market which provides affordable energy for all New Zealanders and which drives down prices through the abundance of energy in this country. Whether that is wind, solar, geothermal, hydro, gas, coal, we need all of those types of energy to make sure we have a market which provides lower wholesale energy prices for consumers and for businesses. I\u2019m pleased to note that the Australian Securities Exchange calendar year future prices have shown that, for 2027, since February, there\u2019s been a $27 reduction in megawatt hour cost; 2028, down by $24; 2029, it\u2019s down by $22. We are seeing, because of the policies of the Government, a reduction in those forward prices, which is positive. Of course, there\u2019s more work to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn relation to the member from Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, the question around a particular solar farm\u2014I forget the particular location for that solar farm\u2014we of course support solar. We support investment in solar via energy companies. As I said to her co-leader earlier today, we support indigenous solar. We want to see more solar being developed in New Zealand, and, in fact, the total forward pipeline from 2026 to 2029 has 1,867 megawatts of solar in the forward pipeline.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d8609c612411686d517d0f9b09b28\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3ac624c4075090aee4fe01ab07a852a\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: Fast track!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b62729bf27cc00b5957f1744adbc465d\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: That is fantastic, and of course, fast track is a great way, another part, of how we\u2019re making it speed up. There\u2019s lots happening in solar, it\u2019s great for our energy system, and we look forward to more projects being advanced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022 data-id=\u00229f4054f263d73d9728823ac5730ab7e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f4054f263d73d9728823ac5730ab7e5\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram) (21:14)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ll just remind the Minister that I\u2019m still waiting for an answer on what the current balance of the petroleum engine fuels monitoring levy memorandum account is at today. The Government seems to be avoiding this question; it\u2019s many, many, many days overdue on answering written questions on it, and certainly this is the fourth time I\u2019ve asked it in the Chamber. There\u2019s been several hours hiatus where the Minister could have got their information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI also would like to know whether the Minister is still saying that there will be a signed contract by July; whether that is the intention of the Government and whether that is the timeline he is working to. I\u2019m also interested whether or not the Minister will guarantee that, if a liquefied natural gas terminal goes ahead, it will solely be for the purposes of dry-year risk\u2014that it won\u2019t be used more broadly than that, and that it won\u2019t become a de facto way of supplying gas more fully in the New Zealand economy, because that is what the Cabinet paper, on the surface, purports to claim. Can the Minister confirm whether or not this is a project that is confined to dry-year risk?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b3410b728cb84eb295c253e2648ca0c8\u0022 data-id=\u00229404d9f573104cde29881370f65d0894\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b3410b728cb84eb295c253e2648ca0c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229404d9f573104cde29881370f65d0894\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green) (21:15)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair, and I would make the point\u2014and I think the Minister also has made this point\u2014that hope is not a strategy and yet we have heard from the Electricity Retailers\u2019 and Generators\u2019 Association (ERGANZ) this morning, we\u2019ve heard from downstream, we\u2019ve heard from all the leaders in the energy sector, that we need a national energy strategy. There was one ready to go out the door at the end of the last Government. This Government\u2019s been sitting on it for the whole term so far. My question to the Minister is: when are we going to see the Government\u2019s release of a national energy strategy or, better yet, the Government opening the doors and bipartisanship? Let\u2019s see what a national energy strategy would look like, to give some certainty to the sector about our decarbonisation efforts; to give some certainty to the sector about the direction of travel; to give some certainty about where we can go and make a difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve also heard that the Minister is very keen to see that we need a competitive market, and on that we agree. To that point, there is a bill sitting in the biscuit tin that the Minister can adopt at any moment, and it is called the Electricity Industry (Separation of Generation and Retail Businesses) Amendment Bill. That will build a competitive market; that will make sure that we have a market that functions, that takes away the control, and the cross-subsidisation. Now, that is an option that is open to the Minister right now, and we have heard members of the Government saying they want to do just this thing. Is the Government all talk, no action? That\u2019s what I\u2019m seeing from the Government: all talk, no action. There\u2019s a lot you could do here and you just don\u2019t seem to be wanting to do it. I\u2019d like to hear from the Minister on those points. I\u2019ve got a couple of other questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022 data-id=\u0022931d32c79428d136d047591ba87be91d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022931d32c79428d136d047591ba87be91d\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister for Energy) (21:17)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair, I love it when members on the Opposition talk about wanting bipartisanship. Well, what they have failed to do is back the reversal of oil and gas\u2014the ban on oil and gas exploration\u2014which they put in place. They didn\u2019t consult on it, they didn\u2019t come and talk to the National Party, they didn\u2019t try and seek a bipartisan approach to that; they simply went and announced it on the steps of Parliament, for the Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern to be able to then go to Paris and get a headline and be on the front page of a magazine. Shame on the Labour Party and the Green Party for their decisions on that. Where was the bipartisanship then? That is the epicentre of the challenges we are facing now in our energy sector, and it is on their shoulders. They should take that responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8646075f88230ec4a45a76064df7048\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Are you going to answer the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9fd165d254e97adc83c95649fae1b47\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair, the question was: do we want a strategy? Well, we want to make sure we have lower prices and affordable energy and abundant energy for New Zealanders, and simply, on that side of the House, they want paperwork but won\u2019t actually back the solutions which actually deliver value to people, value to households, value to consumers, and value to businesses and jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe decision they made to ban oil and gas exploration has been detrimental on our energy sector and also on our industrial base and is leading to the de-industrialisation of New Zealand, and they have the audacity to stand up in this Parliament and complain about businesses closing but fail to back the solutions so that they have the energy to stay open. Shame on them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b3410b728cb84eb295c253e2648ca0c8\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6ec84361a869c40c4f7779ed049b0a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b3410b728cb84eb295c253e2648ca0c8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6ec84361a869c40c4f7779ed049b0a8\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green) (21:18)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Certainly, it sounds as though the Government has no strategy, has no plan, just hopes the market will deliver. Given that there is only one remaining offshore wind developer still floating around, when will the Government finally deliver the Offshore Renewable Energy Bill? And is the Government considering any risk-sharing structures with Taranaki Offshore Partnership?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022 data-id=\u0022491694929df1a7afc7557855812d2cf2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022491694929df1a7afc7557855812d2cf2\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister for Energy) (21:19)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. That bill, as the member will know, is making its way through Parliament as we speak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1cadb4fe1190dca3838c818da9af727\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, our time with the Minister for Energy has ended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022708d12b497f5dc0bb0c1ea797b1e29f8\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u2014Annual Review Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dbabfaf455a522496dbbe776ce29f811\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ff3e9d19e9714cf554fb71915f8dafd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister for M\u0101ori Development is now available until 10 p.m. to respond to members\u2019 questions. I\u2019ll give the first call to the chairperson of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b27d8609c612411686d517d0f9b09b28\u0022 data-id=\u00220e6c17fddd9b582f975ece0b067fc785\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d8609c612411686d517d0f9b09b28\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e6c17fddd9b582f975ece0b067fc785\u0022\u003EDAVID MacLEOD (Chairperson of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee) (21:20)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. As the chair of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, I present the major findings of the Te Puni K\u014Dkiri in-depth annual review, December last year. During the period, Te Puni K\u014Dkiri published their strategic intentions for 2025-2029. Their strategic vision continues to be thriving wh\u0101nau, and it says that when wh\u0101nau are thriving, so too are their communities, hap\u016B, iwi, and all of Aotearoa New Zealand. Te Puni K\u014Dkiri\u2019s policy approach is Te Tautuhi o Rongo, which is a framework for the Public Service to ensure that high-level decision making considers both the collective and individual rights of iwi and M\u0101ori. Their delivery approach is wh\u0101nau-centred, locally led, and Government enabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe Puni K\u014Dkiri employs the equivalent of 423 full-time kaimahi, with two-thirds of them having M\u0101ori descent. Outside of Wellington, there are 15 regional offices. Auditors provided a modified audit opinion, with them being satisfied with the financials and that they were fairly presented, with one exception relating to the non-departmental estimated costs and related provision associated with the Wakat\u016B court case. Further details of that are within the report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn February of 2025, Te Puni K\u014Dkiri took over some functions from Te Arawhiti, now known as Te Tari Whakatau. The transferred responsibilities include advising the Government and the Public Service on the distinct rights, interests, and responsibilities of hap\u016B and M\u0101ori, and, secondly, leading post-settlement relationships with post-settlement governance entities and monitoring the Crown\u2019s implementation of Treaty settlement commitments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b11bafcf5b5427480393ffeef4fe6e8\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9dc55d15cae364ca8c8d46004d05dd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b11bafcf5b5427480393ffeef4fe6e8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9dc55d15cae364ca8c8d46004d05dd4\u0022\u003EORIINI KAIPARA (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014T\u0101maki Makaurau) (21:22)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair, \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003Et\u0113n\u0101 koe\u003C/span\u003E. I\u2019m going to get straight to an area that is of huge concern to me and to other members of this House, and that is M\u0101ori broadcasting\u2014Whakaata M\u0101ori specifically\u2014and reports of cuts to M\u0101ori Television in Budget 2024 as part of more than $300 million in M\u0101ori-specific reductions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EWhat advice did the Minister for M\u0101ori Development receive about the impact of the $5.5 million in expiring funding for Whakaata M\u0101ori during the period under review? Can the Minister confirm whether any of the $5.5 million in time-limited funding has been replaced with ongoing baseline funding? What assessment has the Minister made of how Whakaata M\u0101ori will maintain current levels of content production after losing 20\u00A0percent of its budget? Did the Minister receive any warnings from officials about job losses or service reductions resulting from this funding expiry? Finally, what criteria did the Minister use to decide not to renew the time-limited funding that Whakaata M\u0101ori relied on for digital transformation and for staffing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022 data-id=\u00224a9759f4a67af18d54b7ecd87900944e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a9759f4a67af18d54b7ecd87900944e\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour) (21:23)\u003C/span\u003E: Just further to those questions from Oriini Kaipara, I\u2019m interested in whether the Minister for M\u0101ori Development has a strategy around M\u0101ori broadcasting. The previous Government had a full M\u0101ori broadcasting strategy, and we have yet to see any M\u0101ori broadcasting strategy from the Minister. In fact, we haven\u2019t seen anything from the Minister, if I\u2019m being honest, in terms of a future for M\u0101ori broadcasters, particularly Ng\u0101 Reo Irirangi M\u0101ori, who are feeling that they are under major attack at the moment, with M\u0101ori radio stations looking at funding cuts of up to 25 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESo has the Minister got a strategy in place to address that? I think the previous questions in terms of baseline funding are very relevant questions for whoever the Minister is, whether that Minister comes from National or Labour, or any M\u0101ori Minister\u2014baseline funding is always a challenge in the M\u0101ori area, because whatever the Government, they always seem to have problems in terms of driving through baseline funding for M\u0101ori. So I ask the Minister: what is the strategy, given that he has not put together one extra cent for M\u0101ori broadcasting over the time he has been the Minister for M\u0101ori Development\u2014not one cent has come through Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho or Te Puni K\u014Dkiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGiven that M\u0101ori broadcasting plays such an integral role in terms of the whole area of M\u0101ori development, it is also concerning given that we have 21 M\u0101ori radio stations who are facing massive cuts. Is there a strategy that the Minister is looking to roll-out with the Budget coming up in May? What is his view? We have Whakaata M\u0101ori who have been cut back in terms of funding and don\u2019t know where they\u2019re going. There are redundancies. We have Ng\u0101 Reo Irirangi M\u0101ori now in a position where they may have to make major redundancies. Has the Minister got a strategy in place for the upcoming Budget? Will we see an increase in the M\u0101ori broadcasting area, or will he return a zero Budget as he has done in the previous two years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022 data-id=\u00221bc8710952537871209e3837820ac8ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221bc8710952537871209e3837820ac8ba\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green) (21:26)\u003C/span\u003E: Minister, how does it reflect that under your watch, we have lost a national M\u0101ori news service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203483bc5379847d6378a123790e31bcc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Just direct your comments through the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229455dd2c9b0680f58408b70ef9b47c73\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair, pardon me. I wonder if the Minister for M\u0101ori Development can answer how it reflects on his record that the nation has lost its national M\u0101ori news service\u2014and what is he going to do about it. How is it consistent with our nation upholding our founding agreement, Te Tiriti o Waitangi, to see M\u0101ori broadcasting in such a challenged state because of the actions of this Government in terms of its failure to appropriately support M\u0101ori broadcasting and its funding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b11bafcf5b5427480393ffeef4fe6e8\u0022 data-id=\u00228d5b41ed9cd15b58bd55d319af5e5de5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b11bafcf5b5427480393ffeef4fe6e8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d5b41ed9cd15b58bd55d319af5e5de5\u0022\u003EORIINI KAIPARA (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014T\u0101maki Makaurau) (21:27)\u003C/span\u003E: What modelling has the Minister for M\u0101ori Development seen on the cumulative impact of $9.5\u00A0million in expiring funding on M\u0101ori broadcasting capability? Further to that, what planning has the Minister undertaken to address the further $4 million in funding that expires for Whakaata M\u0101ori in the following financial year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ENow, I want to move to Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho. While Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho\u2019s baseline funding was maintained this year, what advice has the Minister received about the $16 million in time-limited funding that expires after 2026? Further to that, what steps is the Minister taking now to prevent Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho from facing from facing a fiscal cliff when that time-limited funding ends? Has the Minister sought Cabinet approval to convert any of Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho\u2019sexpiring funding into ongoing baseline funding, and what impact analysis has been completed on how the expiry of this funding will affect te reo M\u0101ori content production nationwide?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022 data-id=\u00229fa4e4227e3504874e7cc69cfcf3be88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fa4e4227e3504874e7cc69cfcf3be88\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour) (21:28)\u003C/span\u003E: Further to the question from Steve Abel with regards to national M\u0101ori news: does the Minister think that te ao M\u0101ori should have national M\u0101ori news on radio? If you look at mainstream, New Zealanders have quite the selection and opportunity in terms of accessing news. We have TVNZ news, which was built on taxpayers\u2019 money for 44 years before M\u0101ori Television started in 2004. So we had 44 years of taxpayers\u2019 money as a headstart in terms of mainstream television. We had Newstalk ZB, Radio New Zealand\u2014all built on taxpayers\u2019 money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022440a125e85954bae9f5d470b7551e4f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e412337b6386f22355190b6db4f4d0d\u0022\u003ECameron Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: Is the member making a case for selling?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d30d3922d6aea17b29c310f0b0fc7fc1\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, you listen and you might get it through your thick head.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eef091db87a9985bc335df55a6de318e\u0022\u003EHon Members: \u003C/span\u003EOh, Willie!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2aa28ea6ece2c1168e7251738676559\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: That upset you, did it? I\u2019m just saying the obvious. You have no idea in terms of what I\u2019m talking about\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ERadio New Zealand was built on taxpayers\u2019 money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to know from the Minister\u2014we now have no national Whakaata M\u0101ori news on the hour. Do M\u0101ori deserve to have that opportunity? It comes back to a strategy in terms of a Minister being able to outline a strategy. The Minister will be aware that the previous Government allocated $100 million over two years in terms of M\u0101ori broadcasting, and this Minister has yet to produce one cent. I would like to know, when will he produce one cent for M\u0101ori broadcasting and play a part in the development and strategy going forward? When will he start giving some of our broadcasters some assurances and some tautoko that there\u2019s a brighter future for them, and he\u2019s not just going to sit back and keep delivering zero budgets at Budget time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb1612a470c550e86b21181d1ee3d811\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb1612a470c550e86b21181d1ee3d811\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA (Minister for M\u0101ori Development) (21:31)\u003C/span\u003E: \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EE te Tiamana o te komiti o te Whare nei, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0101tou e hui tahi nei i te p\u014D nei, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003ETo the Chair of the committee of the whole House, thank you. To all of us assembled here tonight, greetings to us all\u003C/span\u003E.]  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe reo M\u0101ori is part of the DNA of our country, Aotearoa New Zealand. We all recognise that we as wh\u0101nau M\u0101ori who are committed to te reo, but also the Crown, have a very active duty to protect and tautoko te reo M\u0101ori. Literally hundreds of millions of dollars go to kaupapa M\u0101ori in te reo M\u0101ori, whether or not it\u2019s through the education system or through the four M\u0101ori language entities, or a wide variety of other initiatives\u2014for example, Te Matatini. Performances on Matatini stages are nearly entirely in te reo M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EJust to recalibrate some of the confusion that members opposite have laced our Parliament with this evening: there have not been cuts to the baseline budget for the four M\u0101ori language entities. Yes, there was time-limited funding, instigated by the former Minister for M\u0101ori Development. Questions or comments around cuts to the budget, I think, ignore the fact that there was time-limited funding, and that time-limited funding has come to the end of its time. Any suggestion that I have been responsible or the coalition Government has been responsible for cutting budgets on te reo M\u0101ori, I think, is distant from the reality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe second thing is it\u2019s absolutely fantastic to see hundreds of thousands of reo M\u0101ori speakers, and we continue to encourage that in many, various ways. The funding that is allocated to the four M\u0101ori language entities is, for the most part, in the operational decision making, governance, and management of those entities. If Minister Potaka decides he\u2019s going to jump down the governance and management throats of those entities and start dictating to them, like an adult to a child, how they should spend the money, I think that disrespects the role of those entities, which were established with much conviction and much fight over many, many decades of commitment to te reo M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s very important to really clarify the role of the Minister and the role of the Government before some of the scarier suggestions are put on my shoulders that I should be telling Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho how much money they should give to each and every individual M\u0101ori radio station. That is not my role\u2014it\u2019s not. We do set up the framework; we do provide funding; and we do encourage all those entities to get on the same waka\u2014to be very clear about a national direction for te reo M\u0101ori, rather than having their own individual directions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere was mention of the M\u0101ori news service. Actually, the funder of that service and the decision maker of that service\u2014for the Opposition member who asked that question\u2014is not the Minister for M\u0101ori Development. It is the funding authority, and they are set up to do that job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAgain, just to remind everyone, we shouldn\u2019t be confused by some of the assumptions and the implications and connotations that are coming through some of the questions. I am very clear about my role. My role is to support the Minister of Finance in relevant allocations for funding in these four M\u0101ori language entities; to encourage those that are involved to get together and make sure they\u2019re on a single waka in terms of the fundamental kaupapa across those organisations, \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003Ekia mauri ora te reo\u003C/span\u003E [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003Eso that the language be healthy\u003C/span\u003E]\u2014and, of course, to help get started a refresh of the Maihi Karauna, which is now under way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOne final observation I\u2019d make, just in the short time I have available, is that communications and broadcasting today are not like they were in the days of Radio Wha Waho\u2014they\u2019re just not. They are very different, and broadcasting and comms has to be far more agile. A lot of our reo M\u0101ori feed is actually not through Whakaata M\u0101ori or radio stations; it\u2019s through social media. Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho, as the main broadcasting funding agency, recognises that. There may be different allocations of funding made at that authority level. That\u2019s their operational responsibility. I see absolutely wonderful reo M\u0101ori feeds on social media\u2014and, indeed, some of that reflects the personalities that sit in this House this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022 data-id=\u002270f204ab3e3704d3308f415df4316776\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270f204ab3e3704d3308f415df4316776\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour) (21:36)\u003C/span\u003E: Clearly, the Minister is confused about his role after that terrible explanation about the state of M\u0101ori broadcasting. Somebody needs to inform the Minister that as the Minister of M\u0101ori Broadcasting as well as the Minister of M\u0101ori Development, his brief is not just te reo M\u0101ori. His brief is M\u0101ori language and culture.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EHe\u2019s got this thing about the reo, absolutely, as a priority, but the Minister\u2019s brief is about M\u0101ori language and culture. Most of the most successful programmes through the last few years, in terms of M\u0101ori programming, have been M\u0101ori programmes in English. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003ENative Affairs \u003C/span\u003Eis a classic example of it; \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EMarae\u003C/span\u003E has been a perfect example of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b90709f97a52bd9813737a58616aa47c\u0022\u003EHon James Meager\u003C/span\u003E: \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EEye to Eye\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d3035fcdbea9816308d5156dc07b57f\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, yes, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EEye to Eye\u003C/span\u003E\u2014that\u2019s a good one, too. That was a few years ago. Plenty of these shows, Moana\u2019s show\u201480 percent of these are in English, funded by Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho (TMP). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Minister is confused\u2014very confused, as he\u2019s revealed himself tonight\u2014in terms of what his brief is. His brief, I agree, is not about telling TMP what to do\u2014of course he doesn\u2019t tell TMP what to do. His brief is to advocate for TMP, which he is not doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s my question to this Minister: when are you going to advocate for your agency, advocate for Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho, advocate for Te Puni K\u014Dkiri? Where is your M\u0101ori strategy? No one expects you to go in and tell Larry Parr what to do, but we expect you to tell Nicola Willis what to do. We expect you to challenge Nicola Willis\u2014or don\u2019t you say a word? Are you just like James Meager, who runs around trying to do the numbers and fails every time he does it? Are you just like that M\u0101ori over there who can\u2019t count?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f69e52230db2694f100e02c190ec3ca\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Redirect your\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022063e1c9035c6bfef374bab7ad4135f55\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: We want a Minister\u2014well, I\u2019m just saying, there\u2019s another M\u0101ori over there who\u2019s useless in terms of counting. He couldn\u2019t put a coup together if he fell over one. I want to say to the Minister again, what is the M\u0101ori strategy around broadcasting? Is it about saying, \u201COh, I support this, I support that. I\u2019ll do this, I\u2019ll do that\u201D? When is he going to challenge his Cabinet and Nicola Willis to provide some real money, funding, and resourcing for M\u0101ori broadcasting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI want to come to Wh\u0101nau Ora\u2014and my colleague over here Shanan Halbert will as well\u2014which is another kaupapa, because the Minister has failed miserably\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aca47ffa4cefbe932ca55d62be549de5\u0022\u003EHon James Meager\u003C/span\u003E: I know one number: 0800 723 465.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c06c271ef517b0d87be54b85fb562dd\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in terms of his responses with regard to M\u0101ori broadcasting\u2014you just learn how to count, James. In terms of M\u0101ori housing, I want to come to the area of M\u0101ori housing now for the Minister. We have lost $800 million, as the Minister knows, and as Chris Bishop has admitted to me\u2014$800 million has gone from the p\u016Btea M\u0101ori and to mainstream providers. That is another black mark against this Minister, who is saying, \u201CYes, M\u0101ori can get to it\u201D and \u201CMy mate Jamie, well, he\u2019s doing all right, and Willie\u2019s doing all right.\u201D But it\u2019s not about Willie and Jamie doing all right\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c55aa46c7fcf10409a2d7e995ba62692\u0022\u003EHon James Meager\u003C/span\u003E: How\u2019s JT? Has he got a new job?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237bfcd0662d7a499efa6a03350c966f4\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014it\u2019s about all the M\u0101ori providers getting an opportunity.  I want to ask the Minister: where are we going in terms of M\u0101ori housing? How many M\u0101ori providers are being tied back into that M\u0101ori strategy? How many M\u0101ori providers have shut up\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd8a6ee3c8ace2c45308fad8e69ffc71\u0022\u003EHon James Meager\u003C/span\u003E: When\u2019s the trial?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fc36ed24df7401e1cae3f2466e69fea\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014because, again, you\u2014like James Meager over there\u2014are not doing your job in terms of advocating for our people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022 data-id=\u0022258233110c27df17d1b27c94e6d54630\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022258233110c27df17d1b27c94e6d54630\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour) (21:40)\u003C/span\u003E: \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003ET\u0113n\u0101 koe e te Heamana, me ng\u0101 mihi ki a koe e te Minita, me ng\u0101 mihi ki ng\u0101 kaimahi o Te Puni K\u014Dkiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThank you, Mr Chair, and thanks also to you, Minister, and thanks also to the staff of Te Puni K\u014Dkiri\u003C/span\u003E.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to cover off some initial questions to set the scene for Wh\u0101nau Ora this evening. I appreciate that I am new in picking up this particular portfolio, but I wanted to kick off understanding from the Minister: what was the difference in funding in this financial year, 2024-2025, to the prior year, and what was the Minister most concerned about in the implications of those Budget decisions in that annual review period?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022 data-id=\u002212e0a794540f5ae40d582a18ab075b08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212e0a794540f5ae40d582a18ab075b08\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green) (21:41)\u003C/span\u003E: Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho: we did a review of it at the Primary Production Committee. One of the things we found, Minister, was that consistently there\u2019d been a failure to have steady and consistent funding. The time limited funding that you referred to is exactly part of the problem for the constancy of the ability of these institutions to provide a certainty of tenure. These are things\u2014Minister, would you agree?\u2014that we want as a permanent fixture in our society. Therefore, will you commit to baseline funding that, at least, is adjusted to inflation so that there is not this uncertainty every three years or every two years as to whether there will be a continuation of funding or a renewal of the commitment to fund something as important as Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022 data-id=\u00226ab63de81e1a74b438f49277d6ac4b65\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ab63de81e1a74b438f49277d6ac4b65\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA (Minister for M\u0101ori Development) (21:42)\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou. Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m not here to \u201CRoast Bust\u201D any comments from the Opposition either. These comments are in relation to the role of the Minister, and the role of the various M\u0101ori language entities are very wayward. The member opposite suggested it\u2019s my role to go and have a beat-up with the Minister of Finance on these issues and then run around making demands to give some sugar-rush input into the entities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022720a587f7327b2e34e4a3a71b184b0db\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s what you have to do. Don\u2019t sit there\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250f665689a572f32f361990139faa34a\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: No, that\u2019s not my role. It may have been his role under the former finance Minister, but that\u2019s not my role in the current Government. I can assure the members opposite and also the members of the coalition Government that I\u2019ve been very determined to ensure that we fortify the baseline funding. We set that two years ago, we set that last year, and we continue to support te reo M\u0101ori and culture in a variety of ways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, in relation to the baseline funding, the baseline funding has been secured. There\u2019s a suggestion that we should be inflation-proofing any baseline funding in the future, but decisions are made, and the decisions will be made in this Budget as well, and that will be up to the Minister of Finance to announce in sure course. At this stage, the process that has been undertaken by Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho in relation to allocation of funding to radio stations and others has not been finalised. It will be finalised after the Budget, and Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho will make its announcements accordingly. I certainly, as the Minister and as a strong supporter of te reo M\u0101ori and ng\u0101 tikanga M\u0101ori, am not going to make any premature comments before that time. It\u2019s the role of Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho to make decisions and make them in a prudent way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, there were some observations in relation to M\u0101ori housing and, again, some fuzzy math by someone who maybe couldn\u2019t put an iskender together in a kebab shop around M\u0101ori housing providers. If you take the time to drive around and fly around the country and, as necessary, catch a bus or train or go with auntie, you\u2019ll find that there is a whole range of M\u0101ori organisations, iwi organisations, and others who are involved in building and establishing houses. Whether or not it\u2019s Ng\u0101ti Kur\u012B, Te Aup\u014Duri, Ng\u0101ti Wai, Ng\u0101ti Kahu ki Whangaroa, and Ng\u0101puhi just in Northland alone\u2014where is the Minister for Northland, actually? He\u2019s usually hanging around here at 9.45\u2014or Ng\u0101ti Rangit\u0101ne, Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu, and Toitu Tairawhiti and others on the eastern seaboard, up where whaea Dana Kirkpatrick is from and whaea Cushla\u2014she left early; she didn\u2019t want to ask me questions\u2014or Ng\u0101ti Rangi and Te K\u016Bmete o Paerangi and others in the central North Island; or, of course, our friends over in Rotorua and the Eastern Bay of Plenty in places like Ng\u0101ti Whakau\u0113 and \u014Cwhata 2B and 7 on Te Ngae Road in Rotorua or Whakat\u014Dhea out of \u014Cp\u014Dtiki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a whole host of M\u0101ori housing providers\u2014oh, Te Pouahi; I\u2019ll put them in too. Many of these providers have been absolutely thrilled to work on a mahi tahi basis with the Government to build and establish not only houses but also the right supports for their people, the right tautoko for the right house in the right place with the right tautoko for those in need. That\u2019s contributed in a remarkable way to ensuring that those wh\u0101nau and communities that are in need are supported. I\u2019m pretty enthusiastic about that ongoing work because it\u2019s a long way to close up, as I said yesterday. Of the 1,000 or so homes that were contracted under the previous administration, maybe between 700 and 800 had finished and got code compliance certificates (CCCs), but there\u2019s still several hundred to go. The administration left the office in October or November 2023 and sometime in the next nine or 12 years might come back. When you look at the 1,000 or so that have been indicated to be contracted under this Government, about 200 to 300 have been completed with CCCs. There are still hundreds of homes to be built by these organisations, and we shouldn\u2019t think for any minute that because some funding has been stopped, all the work has stopped, all the mahi has stopped. No, actually, it\u2019s ongoing. We continue to support the likes of Ka Uruora and others who are doing some sterling and diligent work in our communities\u2014places like New Plymouth, Ng\u0101motu, up where David MacLeod\u2019s from and right throughout the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m very energised by the opportunity to go and visit iwi, such as Ng\u0101ti Rangi, and M\u0101ori organisations, such Whakau\u0113 up at Wharenui Rise in the eastern outskirts of Rotorua, to see what they\u2019re doing, to tautoko what they\u2019re doing, and also to inhale the reimagination of their communities and their small to medium enterprises and their aspirations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022 data-id=\u00220f76b27c11f38bdec700d28cfaf38c97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f76b27c11f38bdec700d28cfaf38c97\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour) (21:47)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m just waiting on a response to my Wh\u0101nau Ora questions, but I\u2019ll continue on because I do want to understand, effectively, where the buck stops with the Minister in his responsibilities to Wh\u0101nau Ora, given the significant cuts to this particular area and the structural changes. I\u2019m happy for the Minister to provide an answer, and then I can continue with my questioning, if he would prefer. No?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea048ba54a09c343f1dc1fd23bbfb230\u0022\u003EHon Tama Potaka\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll give the answer shortly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022141d48dbc66c7561f6690085e68e8b5b\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: I do want to come back to the procurement process for the commissioning agencies and understand from the Minister what his involvement was throughout that process. I understand that, at the first stage of procurement, Te Puni K\u014Dkiri received about 30 registrations of interest. Did he have a role in decision making in that? What was the advice that he was provided from staff and that he provided to staff that finalised those particular decisions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022 data-id=\u00226323ba749fa82869253a6e2ea887fba2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226323ba749fa82869253a6e2ea887fba2\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour) (21:48)\u003C/span\u003E: Just following up on that. I think those are relevant questions. The minister still hasn\u2019t answered previous questions in terms of where the M\u0101ori strategy is, and also this question, I think, would be good to get from the Minister answered tonight: has he actually increased the M\u0101ori development budget by one cent since he\u2019s been the Minister for M\u0101ori Development? I\u2019d just like to know: over the last three years, has there been an increase in the M\u0101ori development budget or any M\u0101ori funding whatsoever? On top of that, over 100 roles\u201421\u00A0percent of Te Puni K\u014Dkiri\u2019s entire workforce\u2014have been cut or have been proposed to be cut since the Government took office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EHow does the Minister expect the Crown\u2019s principal adviser on M\u0101ori wellbeing to do its job when we\u2019re talking about a fifth of its people being cut? This is Te Puni K\u014Dkiri, who are already under attack. TPK, Te Puni K\u014Dkiri, are the Minister\u2019s principal advisers. Then the latest round of TPK cuts specifically targets M\u0101ori capability roles, and the people who the Minister proudly advocates for and supports\u2014and I acknowledge that\u2014the people responsible for te reo and tikanga competency within the organisation, are getting axed. Does the Minister accept that axing those roles directly affects the ministry\u2019s ability to engage with te ao M\u0101ori? Just a few questions in those areas to follow up on the Wh\u0101nau Ora p\u0101tai.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022 data-id=\u002261ef7125c6665a27f9dea99b6615eb6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261ef7125c6665a27f9dea99b6615eb6c\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA (Minister for M\u0101ori Development) (21:50)\u003C/span\u003E: Just in relation to a couple of the issues that have been raised and questions that have been raised, I\u2019m advised by the officials that there was no material change in the level of funding for Wh\u0101nau Ora in the relevant periods announced; that it is around $170 million to $180 million that is dedicated to the Wh\u0101nau Ora initiatives. I\u2019m sure that the member opposite who asked that question will be even more informed when he comes to visit me to discuss that in the next week or so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIn relation to my role with Wh\u0101nau Ora, unlike, perhaps, others who have been in this role, I\u2019ve been very clear, number one, to secure the funding and the commitment from the Minister of Finance over the forthcoming years in the Budget period, but also to ensure that the process of recommissioning or renewing the Wh\u0101nau Ora contractual arrangements was undertaken in a defensible and credible manner. It\u2019s not my job to jump in and say who\u2019s hot and who\u2019s not and to pick winners but to ensure that I provide the relevant ministerial support for Te Puni K\u014Dkiri to make that operational decision. What a fantastic decision that was made to appoint\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf22a832d14a4c99ab5dfd16e24446e5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6b246456646ab98fdecfb5b87bcf71a\u0022\u003ERima Nakhle\u003C/span\u003E: By a fantastic Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca04ffce248c00d33ef2a0f36303c879\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well, hey, my head\u2019s growing as you speak. To see that there are four renewed commissioning agencies, three of which, of course, have a very strong iwi basis, with M\u0101hutonga, Ng\u0101ti Toa Rangatira; Te Tauraki in Ng\u0101i Tahu; the Rangit\u0101miro kaupapa, which has engaged with various iwi M\u0101ori partnership boards across Northland, Auckland, and Waikato; and our Pacific brothers and sisters at T\u0101tou Collective, with Ulu Aiono and others\u2014absolutely brilliant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy role, again, is to make sure that the funding is in place, to make sure that the process is followed, and to provide the type of ministerial support\u2014which may have been different from previous Ministers, whether or not they were Ministers of Wh\u0101nau Ora, often intervening in the Wh\u0101nau Ora process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, there was a question of whether or not there has been anything added to the Ministry of M\u0101ori Development - Te Puni K\u014Dkiri budget over the last couple of years, and, actually, there has been. As we know, the previous administration didn\u2019t really fund the M\u0101ori Women\u2019s Welfare League or M\u0101ori wardens as much as we have. We\u2019ve come out and said, \u201CSmell the oily rag.\u201D That\u2019s the type of organisation that\u2019s been doing some fantastic things for w\u0101hine M\u0101ori and w\u0101tene M\u0101ori. They\u2019re always at all those hui that we go to, whether or not they\u2019re at poukai or Te Matatini or elsewhere. But we support the M\u0101ori wardens. We support the M\u0101ori Women\u2019s Welfare League. I\u2019m happy to report again, if you didn\u2019t see it already, that we gave additional support to those organisations. Isn\u2019t that great? Isn\u2019t that good mahi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere have been some ins and outs, no doubt. There have been in and outs of the M\u0101ori development budget, but that\u2019s par for the course on most portfolios across Government. Of course, some portfolios have had a lot more money. I\u2019d just acknowledge Minister Brown, who was here before, in the health portfolio; police and defence and education\u2014sure, because that\u2019s what we believe in. Actually, those portfolios support M\u0101ori communities as well as all New Zealand communities. As a Government, we\u2019ve been very clear that we need to see better K\u0101wanatanga performance across those core portfolios like education and health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s absolutely shocking that when we arrived here, one out of three M\u0101ori kids would go to school regularly. I think that\u2019s absolutely underwhelming, and that\u2019s not the type of standard or achievement or target that we want to have for our young people. Now, it has improved a little bit. We want to see it improve a lot more. But what we\u2019re not going to do is see one out of three M\u0101ori kids go to school, no matter what school it is\u2014if it\u2019s a kura kaupapa, wharekura, State school, State integrated. We want to see kids going to school and encourage them to go to school.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think that, yes, some portfolios have had a reduction in funding, and we acknowledge that, but other portfolios\u2014that are absolutely dedicated to the health, wealth, and wellbeing of M\u0101ori and all New Zealanders\u2014have been supported more, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re into. I know I\u2019m not confused about that, because I want to see particularly State schools do absolutely everything they can to support the success of rangatahi M\u0101ori, as I\u2019m sure the Opposition members would like to see also.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b11bafcf5b5427480393ffeef4fe6e8\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5987aece60a98312a77473bedd2124c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b11bafcf5b5427480393ffeef4fe6e8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5987aece60a98312a77473bedd2124c\u0022\u003EORIINI KAIPARA (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014T\u0101maki Makaurau) (21:55)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the Minister for mentioning M\u0101ori education. That\u2019s where I\u2019ll focus my question. Cuts to M\u0101ori education programmes, including M\u0101ori resource teachers and kaupapa M\u0101ori pathways, have been widely reported. Kura and wharekura in T\u0101maki-makau-rau have raised concerns that these changes will reduce access to specialist support for their \u0101konga. What assurances can the Minister give that M\u0101ori-medium learners in T\u0101maki-makau-rau will not experience a decline in support or outcomes as a result of these reductions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EUrban M\u0101ori in T\u0101maki-makau-rau, many of whom are disconnected from their iwi or live far from their rohe, have expressed concern that the removal of targeted M\u0101ori programmes will widen existing inequities. How is the Minister ensuring that the voices of urban M\u0101ori are reflected in decisions about funding, programme design, and the future direction of M\u0101ori development?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFinally, on that note, on M\u0101ori economic development and M\u0101ori business support, reports indicate that hundreds of millions previously allocated to M\u0101ori economic development have been removed or reprioritised. Now, M\u0101ori businesses in T\u0101maki-makau-rau, particularly small wh\u0101nau-owned enterprises, have said that these cuts reduce access to capability funding and advisory support. What analysis has the Minister undertaken on how these changes will affect M\u0101ori business growth in the region, and what replacement initiatives, if any, have been introduced to fill that gap?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELastly, M\u0101ori trades training\u2014funding for M\u0101ori trades training has been stopped, despite T\u0101maki-makau-rau having one of the largest M\u0101ori youth populations in the entire country, \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003Ete motu wh\u0101nui nei\u003C/span\u003E, and a strong demand for apprenticeships in construction, in infrastructure and technology. What replacement pathways has the Minister put in place to ensure that rangatahi M\u0101ori in T\u0101maki-makau-rau and throughout Aotearoa still have access to culturally grounded trades training opportunities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f988bc72b5e47b8856ba70e41dfbbaf\u0022 data-id=\u0022966800bf5be5beb9a2325b14a0cab4e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f988bc72b5e47b8856ba70e41dfbbaf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022966800bf5be5beb9a2325b14a0cab4e3\u0022\u003EGEORGIE DANSEY (Labour) (21:58)\u003C/span\u003E: My question is about M\u0101ori economy and employment. M\u0101ori unemployment has risen from 6.8 percent to 10 percent, and the employment rate has fallen from 64.7 percent to 60.7 percent\u2014both statistically significant. Name one Te Puni K\u014Dkiri initiative in 2024-25 that has moved either number, with evidence. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022 data-id=\u0022316ea46557f966350c967fe51e094734\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022316ea46557f966350c967fe51e094734\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA (Minister for M\u0101ori Development) (21:58)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019ll be a quick one as the glass slipper starts falling off, people. Look, I\u2019m not going to mix kombucha with a coffee like some of the questions asked of me. That\u2019s a bubbly zing, people. Education questions should be directed to the education Minister, OK? Trade training questions on that particular issue should be directed to the Minister of Te Manat\u016B Whakahiato Ora. If you don\u2019t know what that means, that\u2019s Ministry of Social Development\u2014just in case, for you bilingual speakers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EWhat I will say is this: none of us want to see, OK, a deterioration in the M\u0101ori economy and the New Zealand economy, but these are the consequences that hailed from the economic terrorism of the previous administration. The investments that M\u0101ori development have made, the investments in fast-track approvals, many of which are actually M\u0101ori-owned and led\u2014the fast track is actually benefiting a whole range of M\u0101ori organisations to generate employment. Can I say I\u2019m looking forward to the Ng\u0101i Tahu aquaculture application\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8ea65a09738a68c6d5de01fe0b3b744\u0022\u003EHon James Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, big tick!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d101120762b958c5fed6ee48e7a5d37\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and also, Mr Meager, a range of property developments that will generate M\u0101ori employment. That\u2019s why we continue to support iwi like Waikato-Tainui and their massive work in Hamilton, the city of the future. Tihei mauri ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5e85a2cd56212e268f51012f8959f5e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the committee is suspended and will resume at 9 a.m. tomorrow for the extended sitting. \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EP\u014D m\u0101rie\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterItalicsCentred\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 10 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022af371d8d42a46594cc02eefa1b07d620\u0022\u003EExtended Sitting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d90d432cb16c6934fe34dcd9dfce0c13\u0022\u003EThursday, 23 April 2026\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e633902a94f3e768984516f11b652cf9\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b096c77bfbaf980b01b1f4f4ef6cf253\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2024/25 Confirmation and Validation) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222990cc6416e53b8542385969c96b6d4e\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u2014Annual Review Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7d0ba0bbbd30f784d9c34bce9ee56fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7d0ba0bbbd30f784d9c34bce9ee56fa\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger) (09:00)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the committee is resumed on the Appropriation (2024/25 Confirmation and Validation) Bill. [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E] There\u2019s a little bit of noise just to my right, Mr Luxton. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThis is the debate on the financial position of the Government and the annual reviews of departments, Officers of Parliament, Crown entities, public organisations, and State enterprises, as reported by select committees. There are 40 minutes remaining in this debate. The remaining time for each party is as follows. New Zealand National has 15 minutes. New Zealand Labour has 15 minutes. The Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand has eight minutes. ACT New Zealand has 20 minutes. New Zealand First has no time remaining. Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori has six minutes. The Minister for Pacific Peoples is now available to respond to members\u2019 questions. Once again, the question is that the report of the Finance and Expenditure Committee on the annual financial statements of the Government for the 2024/25 financial year be noted. I give the first call to Joseph Mooney, who is the chairperson of the Social Services and Community Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229e6d2e213e93c81ab2b44b10bcf5c692\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u2014Annual Review Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u00220645491ddf5d6c03eff85cc3e5bf48e4\u0022\u003EPacific Peoples\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f0d31505882949b1a768aad60863fba9\u0022 data-id=\u00222c9aa1398c480309c578c627d9985834\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f0d31505882949b1a768aad60863fba9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c9aa1398c480309c578c627d9985834\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (Chairperson of the Social Services and Community Committee) (09:01)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and talofa. \u003Cspan lang=\u0022ton\u0022\u003EM\u0101l\u014D e lelei.\u003C/span\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022rar\u0022\u003EKia orana.\u003C/span\u003E Welcome. It\u2019s great to rise as the chairperson of the Social Services and Community Committee to make some brief comments on our report to the House on our annual review of the Ministry of Pacific Peoples for 2024/2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn 2024/25, the ministry\u2019s total revenue expenditure was essentially balanced, with revenue of $29.29 million and expenditure only $5,000 less. The ministry reported that changes to its personnel costs were mainly due to vacancies not being filled and ongoing reductions in overall staff to meet the Government\u2019s savings expectations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe auditor rated the ministry\u2019s financial information and supporting system and controls as good, with some improvements recommended. They did note that the ministry\u2019s management control environment and its performance, information supporting system, and controls did need improvement and recommended that major improvements be made at the earliest reasonable opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe did look at unemployment and economic development and did note that the unemployment rate for Pacific peoples is 10.9 percent compared with the average rate of 5.2 percent across the entire population. The ministry told us that they continue to work closely with other agencies that have direct responsibility for areas that support Pacific peoples in the areas of unemployment and economic development. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe heard that the savings that it had made were mostly in back-office functions and not in those crucial forward-facing roles. It said that it had invested $10 million towards economic growth each year through initiatives such as the Pacific Business Village, Tauola Business Fund, and the Pacific Business Trust.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOne of the ministry\u2019s priorities in delivering for Pacific communities strategies 2025-2028 is a strengthened focus on data equity. The ministry works with other Government agencies in relation to Pacific data, advising what data is available, the quality of the data, and any related issues. I note that that is crucial for ensuring that the right information is in front of decision makers. We did look through other things, including artificial intelligence, Pacific diaspora, performance measures, staffing, and underspending, and those are available to members of the public who wish to look at it. With that, I recommend our report to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022285616ca24d64fe7b880cb8e6ac0c0c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022285616ca24d64fe7b880cb8e6ac0c0c2\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green) (09:03)\u003C/span\u003E: \u003Cspan lang=\u0022rar\u0022\u003EKia orana\u003C/span\u003E, Madam Speaker, and \u003Cspan lang=\u0022rar\u0022\u003Epopongi manea\u003C/span\u003E to everybody. Warm Pacific greetings to the House, even though it\u2019s cold outside. Let me start my questions with a bit of context around how many Pacific peoples, myself included, view the role of the Ministry of Pacific Peoples\u2014in particular, Pacific peoples here within Aotearoa New Zealand and around the Pacific. The Pacific is the front yard and the back yard of Aotearoa New Zealand. You don\u2019t go anywhere unless you fly over one of our Pacific Island nations and relatives, so that\u2019s really important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe have a Treaty of Friendship with Samoa. It\u2019s the only Treaty of Friendship that we have\u2014a very, very important relationship. We have countries which are actually part of the New Zealand Realm\u2014the Cook Islands, Niue, and Tokelau, along with the Ross shelf down in Antarctica\u2014so that points to a very different type of relationship. We also have growing Pacific populations here within Aotearoa as well. There are more Cook Islanders here, more Niueans here. I think now there are more Tongans here within Aotearoa New Zealand, but I\u2019ll let the Hon Jenny Salesa confirm that or deny that in terms of our Tongan population. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt does actually point to the importance of a place such as the Ministry for Pacific Peoples, because when people come and go from the Pacific, it\u2019s just families connecting with families. The border is just this thing that we have to pass through in order to make those connections, and so that is the difference between this ministry and the others, because we need something here within Aotearoa New Zealand to make sure that we can recognise that aspect, which is very different and unique to other ethnicities, in my opinion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAs a part of the review, we did cover a number of aspects. I did want to see where the Minister has landed with these, given that he\u2019s only been in the role for five minutes, but he\u2019s probably been very diligently going through all the different bits and papers and talking with his officials. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOne of the issues that came up was around the potential merger of the Ministry of Pacific Peoples, noting that that wasn\u2019t going to happen. The Prime Minister himself did say that that wasn\u2019t going to happen, but I do want to know whether that\u2019s in the plans. It was something that has been considered. There was a considerable amount of media about it and a lot of angst and anxiety within Pacific communities themselves, so I want to know whether that is at all on the work programme, and if so, why, and if not, why not? That\u2019s a question I want the Minister to address, and if he could, if he agrees with the context which I laid out as well, to give us those answers within that context.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn that report as well, we did talk about employment figures; unemployment figures as well. That was touched on by Joseph Mooney in his address. I want to know, what is the Minister planning on doing about Pacific unemployment? It is sharply rising. Our people are being impacted. What is the plan there? What didn\u2019t work in the year that we have been reviewing, in the Minister\u2019s opinion, and what will the Minister do to make sure that those unemployment figures are being resolved? What are the plans that are in place? Those are my initial questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fd2c9c3aa7974099bfcaac8ea7452994\u0022 data-id=\u0022133084c4127c3190d70a20f9762e39cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd2c9c3aa7974099bfcaac8ea7452994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022133084c4127c3190d70a20f9762e39cb\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA (Labour\u2014Panmure-\u014Ct\u0101huhu) (09:07)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you so much, Madam Chair. \u003Cspan lang=\u0022sa\u0022\u003ETalofa lava\u003C/span\u003E. \u003Cspan lang=\u0022ton\u0022\u003EM\u0101l\u014D e lelei\u003C/span\u003E. \u003Cspan lang=\u0022rar\u0022\u003EKia orana\u003C/span\u003E. Warm Pacific greetings to you all and especially to our Minister for Pacific Peoples. Before I go on further with my contribution this morning, can I just acknowledge the passing of Fata\u2018ali\u2018i Kamisi Sepuloni late last week. He was laid to rest earlier on this week on Monday\u2014one of our community leaders and a very strong supporter of our party, but especially his daughter, the Hon Carmel Sepuloni.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhen a new Minister takes up a portfolio like Pacific Peoples, communities\u2014our Pacific communities\u2014are entitled to ask a very simple question: what are your priorities for Pacific people, Minister? Now, that question matters because priorities determine budgets, priorities determine staffing, programmes, initiatives, and political attention. They reveal whether Pacific peoples are indeed truly valued by the National-led Government or whether Pacific people are being treated as an afterthought. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ECan I at this time just remind all of us in this House that according to the census figures of 2023 projected forward to this year, there are over 500,000 Pacific people in Aotearoa New Zealand today. Just following up from my colleague Teanau Tuiono, there are more Tongans in Aotearoa today. There are between 110,000 and 112,000 Tongans here now, compared to 104,000 Tongans in Tonga. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn terms of our overall population of this country, 5.5 million, having half a million who are from the Pacific is a big and significant number. This is why the questions we\u2019re asking of the Minister today are important. Pacific people face real pressures today. Right now, unemployment figures are high. Youth disengagement is also high today. Cost of living pressures are experienced by everyone in Aotearoa New Zealand, but more so\u2014we would argue as Pacific MPs\u2014experienced by Pacific people, because we have such low incomes coming in to our families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe also experience pressures on health and on education, and we also have concerns about the voice of Pacific people within Government. Yes, we have a voice as parliamentarians\u2014there are six Pacific MPs right now in Parliament. Can I also just remind everyone, all of the six Pacific MPs are on this side of the House. There is no Pacific representation on the Government benches right now, which is why it\u2019s even more important that we ensure what Teanau Tuiono spoke about, in terms of the voice of Pacific in Government agencies, remains. Yes, we have some words from the Government now that they will continue and not get rid of the Ministry for Pacific Peoples\u2014a ministry that, by the way, has been fought for and advocated hard for by so many Pacific people over so many years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ECan I just go back to the priorities, though: we have looked at what this Government has done, particularly to the Ministry for Pacific Peoples. When this Government came in, there was a direction that Government agencies cut staffing by 6.5 to 7.5 percent. But what did we see happen at the Ministry for Pacific Peoples? It was cut by 40 percent\u2014four-zero. What is that about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy questions for the Minister are: what are your actual priorities, Minister, for Pacific people? What measurable outcomes is the Minster aiming to deliver over the next 12 months? Which Pacific communities and what issues will the Minister prioritise? Would it include youth unemployment? Business support? Language revitalisation? Health? Housing? Education? Anything else, possibly, the Minister could be thinking of? How can the Minister and this Government claim that Pacific people are a priority if, at the same time they might make that claim, they are cutting programmes and institutional capacity within the Ministry for Pacific Peoples to deliver on those priorities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThese are not partisan concerns. These are legitimate questions of leadership we would like to ask the Minister to answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u002295847110fa2492b2570f8a460f14833f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295847110fa2492b2570f8a460f14833f\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Pacific Peoples) (09:12)\u003C/span\u003E: Talofa. \u003Cspan lang=\u0022rar\u0022\u003EKia orana\u003C/span\u003E. \u003Cspan lang=\u0022ton\u0022\u003EM\u0101l\u014D e lelei\u003C/span\u003E. \u003Cspan lang=\u0022fj\u0022\u003EBula vinaka\u003C/span\u003E, and warm Pacific greetings to all and to this House. Thank you very much for the opportunity to say a few words. I wanted to just listen to some of the concerns raised by my colleagues on the other side of the House before I started off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI was asked to focus first on our priorities. The priorities of this Government for Pasifika people are very clear and they\u2019re the same as our priorities for the whole of New Zealand, which is to have a strong economy that can provide a good standard of living and provide jobs; that\u2019s number one. We inherited some real challenges a couple of years ago with very high interest rates and high inflation, which was adding to the pressure on households, so our number one priority has been to reduce that inflation and those interest rates to help families have more money in their pockets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThen, of course, as we\u2019re all conscious that we\u2019re in a very topsy-turvy global climate, with fuel prices going up, so what this Government has done is put an extra $50 a week into the households of working families through the Working for Families system to help people. That will help many Pacific communities. So number one, we want people to be able to look after themselves and their families, in work, in a strong economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOur second focus has been to help to ensure that there is a good quality education system that equips our children. If you live in Auckland, like I do, a significant percentage of the kids in our schools\u2014I think 25 percent, comes to mind\u2014are of Pasifika origin. Our future as a country\u2014in Auckland, or across\u2014depends on those children being equipped to succeed in a modern world. The very simple basics of that are encouraging kids to be at school. Again, we inherited a real problem with very low levels of school attendance, particularly for Pasifika kids\u2014I think around 50 percent attending regularly. We\u2019ve had a real focus and priority to grow that percentage. The good news is we\u2019ve made some progress there; up 5 percent\u2014one of the fastest areas of growth. Still a terrible situation and a long, long way to go. That\u2019s number two.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThirdly, a good quality health system that provides for the health needs of the Pacific community. They are substantial; the Pasifika people across the board have worse outcomes in health, and that is why there is enormous amount of attention and focus here, and we can go into the details.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EHousing is another area where this Government, again\u2014I don\u2019t want to over politicise these things, but we\u2019ve had the other side talking about tough conditions for people during the previous administration under Jacinda Ardern. In one year, house prices went up 30 percent\u2014one year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247fe3fefa34850a01c15952071d2ee23\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to remind the Minister that we\u2019re talking about a specific period in time, and anything related to that at this point in time. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239d701f2165ee149abdfe4f81cb090cd\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Chair. That\u2019s a useful reminder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s the broader context. I was asked about the priorities; I suppose the point is, where does the Vote and the Ministry for Pacific Peoples fit in this? Because in no way is the $58 million put aside in the Budget for the Ministry for Pacific Peoples the extent of the Government\u2019s commitment to focus on Pacific peoples; it is one slice of that. As the Prime Minister has indicated this term, we\u2019re not suggesting making changes to those arrangements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat we have done\u2014and the previous member referred to a reduction in numbers\u2014is we don\u2019t make the assumption that separate programmes and separate duplicated programmes on particular things run by the Ministry for Pacific Peoples is automatically the best way to get outcomes for Pasifika people. In the area of programmes for young people who are not in education or school, across Government we have many programmes of varying effectiveness. The previous Government set up a separate programme within the Ministry for Pacific Peoples to do that again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMadam Chair, I might just go on a little bit longer if that\u2019s all right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220dbb3648607018cb850c2046624ece6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s fine, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224899f6abf4b840a0d425b0adba36e5c8\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Our approach is actually, well, why do you have a different group replicating a programme that is across Government, handled by the Ministry of Social Development? Why would you have two different situations. It\u2019s better to have that within the overall Government programme, rather that separate it. That is one reason why we\u2019ve rejigged things in this Government, and I think that makes absolute sense. Overall, of course, across the public sector we have made reductions in the number of people employed, because the previous administration very significantly increased the Public Service, and also very significantly increased our deficit. It is not sustainable for us, as a country, to carry on as we were because big deficits have extremely large debt and we have to manage things appropriately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EJust a quick summary of the areas of the Pacific communities budget: $58 million was what we had in the Budget; $40 million of that was for housing and financial capability initiatives, including programmes such as Our Whare Our Fale housing supply initiative; there was $6 million for education, employment, and skills programmes, including Tupu Aotearoa and the Toloa Scholarships supporting Pasifika learners; $6 million for economic development and business support, including services delivered through the Pacific Business Trust\u2014who I\u2019m going to be meeting tomorrow; looking forward to that\u2014enabling Pasifika businesses to scale and create jobs; and $6 million in community, language, and leadership initiatives, including Pacific languages and community programmes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAgain, yes, we have that allocation through the Ministry for Pacific Peoples, but, wearing another one of my hats, for example arts and culture, there\u2019s a very significant investment in Pacific music and arts and culture through Creative New Zealand and many other places. I remember handing an award to Diggy Dup\u00E9, a great Pasifika artist in Auckland at an awards ceremony a year or so ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ERight across Government, there\u2019s an enormous amount of investment to encourage and support the Pacific communities. Why? Because, as has been outlined before, it\u2019s a very significant part of our demography: half a million New Zealanders. We want them to do well. The Pacific communities bring so much to the complexity, the variety, and the diversity of our community\u2019s workforce, our creative sector, and every element of our lives. Our basic priority, as the Government, is that we want all of those people, as well as all New Zealanders, to do well; to, fundamentally, be able to look after themselves and their families; to have the opportunity to contribute in meaningful work; and to also be able to contribute to our community and to do well. That\u2019s by way of introduction. I\u2019m happy to answer further questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u00226b3320e7564f18c523e9591092651790\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b3320e7564f18c523e9591092651790\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (09:20)\u003C/span\u003E: Kia orana, Madam Chair, and warm Pacific greetings to the Minister for Pacific Peoples and other members of the Whare. Actually, often when we hear the warm Pacific greetings salutation, it reminds me of Dame Luamanuvao Winnie Laban because, when she was the Minister of Pacific Island Affairs, she kind of started that phrase as part of her patter of rolling out the salutations, and so it\u2019s great that the Minister and others have continued in that particular vein.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Minister has just responded on a few things that I want to put some questions to him on. He talked about the Government currently having a strong economy. I think that the experience of Pacific communities all around Aotearoa New Zealand would beg to differ with you, Minister. The economic state that they are experiencing in this country, which you and your Government are leading at the moment, is far from strong when they have to make decisions on a daily basis. Things are going in the opposite direction. Pacific unemployment is extremely high, and I have a number of questions about that that I intend to ask the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Minister has talked about the Government\u2019s commitment to focus on Pacific peoples. My question to the Minister is: how many Pacific families have benefited from his Government\u2019s announcement of a $250 payment per fortnight\u2014just one Pacific family would be good, because that would make a huge, huge difference. Minister, you were talking about the Government\u2019s focus\u2014excellent. You\u2019ve got this $250 a fortnight, and that would be welcomed by many, many families\u2014particularly Pacific families\u2014and so to hear about just one from him would be quite helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Minister has also talked about Auckland and the large Pacific population in Auckland, and that\u2019s true. There are other Pacific communities all around New Zealand, including in my community of Palmerston North. He has talked about having a good health system for our Pacific communities. My question to you, Minister, is: how can that be the case when we look at communities like Palmerston North, where our Pacific communities are finding it really difficult to get a colonoscopy because the wait times are extremely high and inadequate, where the gastro department is, basically, on shutdown, where the emergency department (ED) in our region has the worst stats in terms of waiting times for any ED in the country, and where a mental health facility that was invested in by the previous Government took quite some time to open? How are these decisions and these circumstances making a real difference for Pacific communities all around the country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI won\u2019t go into housing and about selling off all the land. How can Pacific communities be housed if all the homes that were supposed to be built have been cancelled and all the land is up for sale\u2014that barren land that many people see around the place? Those are my questions in response to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPacific unemployment: now, we are experiencing in this country the highest levels of unemployment in a decade, so when the Minister says that this is a strong economy and that this is a Government that is focused on delivering for the needs of Pacific communities, how can he defend the fact that Pacific unemployment rates in New Zealand are the highest they have been in many a year? Why, Minister, has the Government failed to arrest that trend over recent quarters? Despite the clear evidence of what is, I guess, severe regional disparity in terms of Pacific unemployment as well, the Government seems to continue to rely on fairly generic employment programmes, and so what is the Minister doing and what has he done?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI appreciate that the Minister is new to this role, but what is the Government doing to focus on region-specific, Pacific-led initiatives to arrest the trend in terms of the high unemployment that the Pacific community are facing at the moment\u2014and that is in the context of the fact of the disproportionate impact on Pacific communities. If we look at the figures, a lot of those job losses have historically been in service sectors, construction, and manufacturing, where huge numbers of our Pacific community rely on those sectors for employment opportunities. What is the Minister doing to alleviate that concern, because the trend is looking\u2014well, it\u2019s terrible at the moment, and it\u2019s continuing to look pretty negative, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThose are just some questions around unemployment. The final one, obviously, is youth unemployment. That is of real concern for Pacific communities, and while Pacific young people continue to experience what are unacceptably high levels of unemployment\u2014which runs the risk of long-term disengagement\u2014what is his Government doing to arrest this clear state of inaction?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u00220c16ed4585c0e205e0a451f222e3aec9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c16ed4585c0e205e0a451f222e3aec9\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green) (09:25)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e5fb10e59e5ae2176799d5e526183cc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Just a reminder that the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand has got four minutes and 47 seconds\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dbb03472d5fadb1a0e53625b666c066\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve got four minutes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8ea7c15c15c05b3e964c4479090e0e8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Four minutes and 47 seconds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022248af26129d375bb5ee99cc6ade0de46\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll use those four minutes wisely, Madam Chair. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOne of the things that we did talk about that I do want to acknowledge was the fact that there are 500,000 of us here in Aotearoa New Zealand, but those 500,000 are connected to the wider Pacific. I think it\u2019s really important to remember that context, and the context that the Ministry for Pacific Peoples plays in helping the Government to navigate its way around cultural issues and community issues, as well, is incredibly important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI do want to acknowledge the work that the officials did on my member\u2019s bill, the restoration of Samoan citizenship bill. It went through the House to third reading and actually got the full support of the House, and I acknowledge that we\u2019ve actually got three members in the House who helped to move that through: Cameron Brewer, Tom Rutherford, and Jenny Salesa, who all worked very, very hard on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe role that the Ministry for Pacific Peoples played in that\u2014and I would like the Minister\u2019s reflections on that\u2014was in helping to provide that cultural capacity and helping to provide the ability to inform the Government on how to navigate those issues. As a Pacific person who was born here, and who is part of the Cook Island community and who has spent a lifetime going to Samoan events, I\u2019m actually not Samoan, and so having expertise in the Ministry for Pacific Peoples was important to help to inform the Government\u2014and of course, in this case, the Parliament\u2014on how to best navigate those issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt was something that the ministry did successfully, and so my question to the Minister for Pacific Peoples is: what is he doing about making sure that that capacity and that capability is bedded in to the Ministry for Pacific Peoples? I do hear the comments around \u201CActually, we can outsource it.\u201D Well, I don\u2019t know about that. I think that some things need to be foundational and some things need to be part of the core part of how the ministry functions, and so that\u2019s one question that I would like the Minister to elaborate on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAlso, I\u2019d like some reflections from the Minister on the restoration of Samoan citizenship Act, as well. What is he aware of? We did talk about this briefly in our annual review, and so is he aware of the number of submissions that came through? How many people have been supported, and how many families have been supported, as well? I think that that would help to enlighten the committee and, indeed, the public that this House can actually get some stuff done and can work together. My question here is around that cultural capacity and that skill set capacity, which I think needs to bedded in within the Ministry for Pacific Peoples: what is he doing to make sure that that is there? It is something that\u2019s incredibly important\u2014being able to offer advice to other Government departments, which also have to navigate issues with Pacific peoples. It is a complex area, so making sure that that expertise is in there is incredibly important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, I do want to come back to the issues around unemployment. As others have said: what is the Minister planning on doing about it? The numbers are not good. We have more of our people right across Aotearoa New Zealand getting on a plane and going to Australia. There is some work that the Ministry for Pacific Peoples has committed to. Given that fact, what is the Minister proposing to do? What is the Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a1382fce1b32aabe6c79dfcf564c316\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Do you want to leave me some time to answer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f7e8c73781d7ef00291f7398afc6794\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve still got some time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022322714e30472432878332698dcf14ebf\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014proposing to do within this particular space, as well? Thank you, Minister Goldsmith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u00222e3fe357c534f8ebc0aa33d7ea033166\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e3fe357c534f8ebc0aa33d7ea033166\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Pacific Peoples) (09:29)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair, and I do note that the warm Pacific greetings that I had from the other side were followed by some pretty chilly comments soon after\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022301e6bb9aacbd5b54e64a8646fa82d8e\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Trying to balance them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f1ea9582c91996c090f089dbdaa255e\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Yes, of course, it\u2019s blindingly obvious that we have relatively high levels of Pasifika unemployment at the moment, which is something that everybody in this Government is focused on reducing\u2014because we\u2019ve had one of the deepest recessions for New Zealand since the early 1990s. As I\u2019m sure all Pasifika people, like all New Zealanders, recognise, there are big, long lags in the economy following events. The big event that we had was an over-stimulus during COVID, leading to high inflation, leading to high interest rates, leading to a recession. New Zealand is suffering the consequences of those decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EHow do we deal with it? It\u2019s not a little, particular programme that\u2019s going to fix it; what fixes unemployment is economic growth. And how do you get economic growth? Well, you get economic growth, fundamentally, from investment\u2014somebody somewhere deciding they\u2019re going to put some money into a new business, start something new, hire some new people, buy a new plant and equipment, and grow something so as to create jobs and wealth and opportunity. And how do you get that investment? Well, some very practical things, like what this Government did, which was change the tax laws so that businesses can expense those investments in new plant and equipment straight off and get the tax relief. Those are the simple things. Bringing in investment from overseas, having a predictable tax system where people feel confident to invest\u2014some of those basics are what this Government is doing, and, over time, that will grow the economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere were some comments made about the health system, and I just want to give a couple of stats which show you the difference between talk and an approach where folk think that success is based on what you spend rather than what you get out the other end. That is around immunisation rates. When National last left office, in 2017, 95.2 percent of Pasifika children were fully immunised at 24 months of age\u201495.2 percent. When Labour left office six years later, that had collapsed to 75 percent, so a whole 20 percent drop in six years\u2014below herd immunity, below the levels of effectiveness that we needed to deal with diseases such as measles and a host of other diseases that cause real problems for health. You can talk about health, and you can talk about spending more money on health and more money on Pasifika programmes, but if the actual outcomes of what you achieve over six years is a catastrophic drop in immunisation rates, I think that\u2019s a problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat have we managed to do in two years? We\u2019ve lifted it from 75 percent to 82.6 percent. We\u2019re reversing the problem, but it\u2019s not something that you can fix overnight. When we talk about fixing the basics and building the future in this country, one of the basics in health, for Pasifika people and for all New Zealanders, is getting that immunisation rate back up. When you take your eye off the ball and focus only on, \u201CThese are the programmes I\u2019m going to do; this is the money I\u2019m going to spend.\u201D, but don\u2019t focus on actually achieving things, then everybody suffers. I\u2019m very proud of the progress we\u2019re making so far. There\u2019s still a lot more work to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022441b384459d02c2c5943358e7d89d32a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Just noting that there\u2019s only six minutes left of the debate and the member has enough time, but the Minister\u2019s got a few seconds left at the end that we\u2019ll allow him to answer, unless ACT is generous and gives the Minister just a fraction of the time at the end. So, away you go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fd2c9c3aa7974099bfcaac8ea7452994\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd9fa975669ad6a0ff9028e94be89289\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd2c9c3aa7974099bfcaac8ea7452994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd9fa975669ad6a0ff9028e94be89289\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA (Labour\u2014Panmure-\u014Ct\u0101huhu) (09:34)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you so much, Madam Chair, and \u003Cspan lang=\u0022ton\u0022\u003Em\u0101l\u014D e laum\u0101lie\u003C/span\u003E, Minister, and everyone in the House of Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Minister has just been talking about basic facts and statistics, so I\u2019d like to begin with some statistics. The number of additional Pacific people who are now unemployed since this National-led Government came into office in December of 2023 is 13,000 people. The number of additional Pacific unemployed in Auckland, where the majority of Pacific people live, since the National-led Government came into office is 5,300. When we talk about basic things that are important to people, one of those things that are most important not just to Pacific people but to, I suspect, everyone in Aotearoa New Zealand is work\u2014is employment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat is where I want to pick up this contribution, because I want to talk about a programme that we know works, and this is a programme that is still there at the Ministry for Pacific Peoples, but it has been really scaled back\u2014it\u2019s been cut a lot\u2014which is the Tupu Aotearoa programme. The main question for the Minister is: why cut a programme like that, which was effective, the evidence shows that it works, and it assisted Pacific people actually to get employed\u2014because for our Pacific people, especially our Pacific young people, employment support is not something that is a one-size-fits-all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat this Tupu Aotearoa programme did\u2014actually, it was developed by Pacific people, for Pacific people, but, actually, with consulting with young people, consulting with leaders and community, consulting with employers and making sure that it is a programme that works on the ground. It also consulted with our families, our churches, and they found out what the actual barriers for Pacific people are and how we could ensure that we address those barriers so that our Pacific people can find a job and actually retain that job. This is why the programme Tupu Aotearoa matters: because it was built by Pacific, it was culturally grounded, and it provided comprehensive wraparound services around our Pacific people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt is not just a theory; this is an initiative that the Ministry for Pacific Peoples implemented, and we know it works. In fact, I read somewhere that they were able to place around about 1,300 people into jobs. We heard the Minister in his contribution before saying something along the lines of, \u201CSeparate programmes that are run in certain and different ways are not as effective, and the programmes that this Government is now investing in are what is effective or best for Pacific.\u201D But I ask the Minister, is it really? Is cutting\u2014and this is one of my questions, because we know from the annual reviews that $22 million was cut from the Tupu Aotearoa programme\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226053b9161759fb1d7491a693bd788aa\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Two minutes of the debate left.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd2c9c3aa7974099bfcaac8ea7452994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce1cdba1c2da819f8bb6ee46eb68fdee\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA\u003C/span\u003E: My question, Minister, is: was that $22 million cut from the Tupu Aotearoa programme returned to the centre and invested in new employment programmes for Pacific, or was it returned to the centre and invested for everyone? This question is particularly important because Pacific have the highest unemployment rate in the country\u201412 percent. If, indeed, we are focused on ensuring that people actually find a job, get a job, and retain a job, this is an important question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe other question, Minister, is: why cut an initiative that was actually working? Can the Minister tell us what the reasons and justifications are for cutting this programme? Was there an impact assessment done? Was there any evidence that the programme was failing? Were providers consulted before the funding was cut? Were Pacific communities consulted before the decision was made to cut this initiative? We argue from this side of the House that cutting programmes like this that were effective is not strategic. It is not efficient. It is certainly not consistent with the claim that the Government is actually ensuring that they look out for Pacific people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u002299b39ec9476ea3e484396fd8aa006cd0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299b39ec9476ea3e484396fd8aa006cd0\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Pacific Peoples) (09:39)\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, the member preferred to use all the time to speak rather than to listen. She was on broadcast rather than receive, and that\u2019s fine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got 30 seconds left, and I would just make the point that a little bit of accountability and responsibility would be nice to hear from that member and that Government, because the reason why there has been an increase in Pasifika unemployment is purely and squarely at the hands of the previous administration that overcooked the stimulus, leading to inflation, leading to higher interest rates, leading to a recession in this country. If they can\u2019t accept that, then I really think they\u2019ve got a lot to learn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe reference to cuts in Tupu Aotearoa\u2014cutting the programme\u2014is incorrect. It is being transferred to the Ministry for Social Development (MSD). There have been some savings in that process, but the goal of delivering the fundamental programmes in the community continues. It\u2019s just who\u2019s best to manage that, and we think, rather than having separate management lines\u2014well, I do need to get on to the next thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s been a very useful discussion, but what I would say as we continue through this Pacific Peoples budget process\u2014just a reminder of what are the four targets that we\u2019re really focused on. One is in health: better delivering healthy housing interventions; second, Pasifika business growth: creating 200 new jobs every year through the particular role of the business trust; three, it\u2019s in housing: collaborating to build affordable homes through the Pacific Building Affordable Homes Fund; and, fourthly, in employment and education: the placements such as through Tupu Aotearoa, which is being transferred to MSD, and also through the Toloa Scholarships. The good news is that, on all of those fronts, we\u2019re making excellent progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022663fc513a16e837887c1b36c5394f5de\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The time for this debate has expired. The question is that the report of the Finance and Expenditure Committee on the annual financial statements of the Government for the 2024-25 financial year be noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200e1f01278835f9e494a4b86b31b4ad4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question now is that the reports of the committees on annual reviews be noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat clauses 1 to 8 and Schedules 1 to 3 be agreed to\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 13; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5; Ferris.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 8 and Schedules 1 to 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a2f879399640935bef7a00c63139f02\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has further considered the Appropriation (2024/25 Confirmation and Validation) Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the report be adopted\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d1fd44aba60e11e145025624c18305b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002201f738f244724e5b8da066dba7a6a526\u0022 data-id=\u00225a3991dc9297b01efb05bdc657b59b63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002201f738f244724e5b8da066dba7a6a526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a3991dc9297b01efb05bdc657b59b63\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Junior Whip\u2014Labour) (09:44)\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Sorry, we\u2019re just a little bit confused on this side of the House; maybe we could seek some clarity. The Minister hasn\u2019t moved anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221f6a57a83e2440cc96180f9aaba2ac0\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Clarity on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002201f738f244724e5b8da066dba7a6a526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221567225353567fee5195734def2c4180\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: The moving of the bill. We\u2019re just a little bit unsure about what was happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022365971a38c2f4bf3a5d702f1955a9121\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Clearly everyone is. We will sort it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u002279ce6a3a0c6ccde3aea7f707b3cbe4d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279ce6a3a0c6ccde3aea7f707b3cbe4d2\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (09:44)\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, the House is in an extended sitting, and in that circumstance, when, effectively, the Minister had a requirement to seek a call\u2014in light of the fact that he did not seek a call after what was a significant period of time, the bill should be discharged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u0022052b56d0849ad7f795f0f377d8fbe011\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022052b56d0849ad7f795f0f377d8fbe011\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh) (09:45)\u003C/span\u003E: For clarification, the Minister had stood up when I got the point of order, but it\u2019s not a Government Order of the Day\u2014and I had called that the bill was set for third reading. It\u2019s not like I\u2019m introducing an order of the day. We are all good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002221a5cbc99b53d68881c7ac89a98af9f5\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u00226c6e3a6bb4602ee5dd09993ae7091fb3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c6e3a6bb4602ee5dd09993ae7091fb3\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage) (09:45)\u003C/span\u003E: on behalf of the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister of Finance\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the Appropriation (2024/25 Confirmation and Validation) Bill be now read a third time\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022785c7108737337260d7aba2942658b94\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u0022680dcb366f211cd587aa769402a86a57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022680dcb366f211cd587aa769402a86a57\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (09:46)\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. The clarity being sought there was that there were members calling out that this is a Treaty bill. It\u2019s now very clear that it\u2019s not a Treaty bill and it is the appropriations bill that the Minister was seeking to move, and on that basis he did not. I ask you to reflect on the earlier point of order that Dr McLellan had originally raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u0022436b91483913f5bb99188bc1e1b3a331\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022436b91483913f5bb99188bc1e1b3a331\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh) (09:46)\u003C/span\u003E: The reality is that we have not moved on to another Government Order of the Day; we are still in the appropriations. There is no debate on the third reading, so all I need to do is\u2014the Minister has moved it; I just need to put the question. I\u2019m just putting the question because there is no debate. I\u2019ll repeat the question. The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the Appropriation (2024/25 Confirmation and Validation) Bill be now read a third time\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 13; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5; Ferris.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002274d0d48b5fd1ba861cc16b17c507c8a0\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu Claims Settlement Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229baad5b83df0a9b68866a78950262be4\u0022\u003ELegislative Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u00227d73ce9645edb8719a1be3f5a035b699\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d73ce9645edb8719a1be3f5a035b699\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations) (09:48)\u003C/span\u003E: I present a legislative statement on the Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu Claims Settlement Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec82ca9dbaa08087c4dcbc29389d61f6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f22a52021865e51ddfbe1c0c7f48b088\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u0022a322b3340e8e0feb31d504934c2eb3c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a322b3340e8e0feb31d504934c2eb3c4\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations) (09:48)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsTerm\u0022 style=\u0022font-style: italic\u0022\u003EThat the Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu Claims Settlement Bill be now read a second time\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003ETihei mauri ora. Ki te mana whenua o t\u0113nei rohe, Te \u0100ti Awa, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou. E ng\u0101 rau rangatira o Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou. Nei r\u0101 te mihi hoki ki ng\u0101 w\u0101hi o t\u014D koutou rohe, ko Te Aroha, e mihi ana. Piki mai, kake mai ki Te Upoko-o-te-ika. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThe breath of life. To the territorial authority of this region, Te \u0100ti Awa, greetings to you. To the many leaders of Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu, greetings. I hereby acknowledge the significant sites of your region, Te Aroha, greetings. Welcome, welcome to Wellington. Greetings and thanks to you all.\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt is my pleasure to stand and speak here in the House today on the second reading of the Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu Claims Settlement Bill. I want to acknowledge Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu\u2014a small representation here today for the second reading debate\u2014nearing the end of their settlement journey after beginning the negotiations with the Crown 15\u00A0years ago, in 2011. A lot has happened since then. Some of the claims that will be settled by this bill were registered with the Waitangi Tribunal in 1987\u2014a golden year it was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Affairs Committee has considered the bill from November last year to March this year. There was a great deal of interest in the bill\u2014it received more than 300 submissions, which is quite a large number for a Treaty settlement bill. Hearings were held here, in Parliament, but also in Te Aroha. I understand discussions were expansive and robust. I\u2019d like to acknowledge the contribution of the submitters and the grace demonstrated by Ng\u0101ti Tumutumu Trust during these discussions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Affairs Committee notes the impact of the unusually long delay between Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu\u2019s ratification of the deed in 2017 and its signing in 2025. That was due, in part, to litigation about overlapping interests in the Hauraki area and subsequent processes to address the concerns of overlapping iwi. It has been, very much, a priority for me, as Treaty negotiations Minister, to try and unravel that process and bring a conclusion to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhile Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu addressed overlapping issues relatively quickly, our initial plan was to have a third reading of all 10 Hauraki iwi bills together; that contributed to the delay so we\u2019re progressing Hauraki bills as they are ready, now. The effect, however, was that there were long periods when the trust had very little to report to the claimant community, leading to some dissatisfaction, as the committee notes, on considering how the impact of the delays can be mitigated, particularly in relation to requirements for trustee elections. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI just want to thank the committee for the review of the bill and their efforts to give their many submissions their due time and consideration. I\u2019m satisfied with the committee\u2019s recommendations, which included an amendment to clause 31 of the bill, sought by the Waikato Regional Council, and agreed to by Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu to enable it, to discharge its flood protection responsibilities. Aside from this, there were only minor amendments to resolve technical issues and to correct reference to Te Aroha maunga in the historical account. This redress is reflective of a robust negotiation and many compromises made along the way. And I just want to thank the negotiators and the trustees for what they have achieved and secured for their people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe will obviously have a fuller debate and discussion at the third and final reading, which is set down for next month in association with Ng\u0101ti Tara Tokanui and the Ng\u0101ti Hei Claims Settlement Bill, which will be a very, very special occasion for the Hauraki group. I commend this settlement bill to the House. \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022 data-id=\u0022420742c1c24f73731df41bb62399f502\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022420742c1c24f73731df41bb62399f502\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour) (09:53)\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora. Thank you, Madam Speaker. I just want to congratulate the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee on the mahi done on this over the last few months, its chairman, David MacLeod, who\u2019s done a good job, and also congratulate the Minister, who needs some congratulations on this because I did wake up yesterday morning and listen to Radio New Zealand and a vote of no confidence was put to the Minister\u2014not from this trust, but from Ruapani\u2014but this is what Ministers have to go through. All Treaty Ministers have a very, very tough road to traverse with Treaty settlements\u2014always they will face division and different views. This Minister is not exempted, nor was Andrew Little, nor were previous Ministers who constantly have to work with hap\u016B within the different iwi\u2014Ng\u0101puhi being the biggest, probably, problem that any Government will have to deal with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI just want to congratulate the Minister on getting to this position and mihi to our little ope who\u2019s come here \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003Ei t\u0113nei w\u0101\u003C/span\u003E [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003Eat this time\u003C/span\u003E]. \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003ENg\u0101 mihi ki a koutou e te wh\u0101nau, i tae mai nei i t\u0113nei w\u0101, i whakarangatira i te kaupapa. E m\u014Dhio au he nui te mahi i ng\u0101 tau kua pahure, engari kei konei in\u0101ianei ki te whakanui i t\u0113nei kaupapa, he mihi nui ki a koutou i t\u0113nei w\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EMany greetings to you, the family, who have arrived here at this time, who have honoured the legacy. I am aware of the significant work over the years, but we\u2019re here now to celebrate this legacy; many congratulations to you at this time.\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhen you look at this type of kaupapa, it\u2019s interesting to look at some of the k\u014Drero that comes out and some of the aspirations that the groups talk about. Despite the settlement process not being fair, in terms of p\u016Btea, in terms of resourcing and funding, still our r\u014Dp\u016B come together and come out with great sentiments. It\u2019s appropriate that I read some of those aspirations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Ng\u0101 Tumutumu Trust \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003E\u201Che taonga, he haerenga, he ara whakamua\u201D\u003C/span\u003E [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003E\u201Ca treasure, a journey, a path forward\u201D\u003C/span\u003E] k\u014Drero talks about a future that includes all of us; a future that reflects the voices, hopes and realities of our wh\u0101nau; a future that acknowledges our history of landlessness, the forced urbanisation of our people, and the impacts of colonisation that took many of us away from our home and away from each other. During the settlement processes, this is always one of the most relevant areas that hap\u016B and iwi talk about. They talk about, from the respective tribe, being proudly from Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu. They talk about being from that tribe, but never actually being brought up within the tribe, never been brought up within the rohe. When they talk about a settlement, they have to reflect on their reality, and, in many times, their reality, as I\u2019ve said, is an urban reality\u2014brought up in the city. When they talk about a future that acknowledges a history of landlessness and forced urbanisation of their people and the impacts of colonisation that took them away from home, those are real realities for M\u0101ori who go through this Treaty settlement process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhilst some New Zealanders aren\u2019t able to grasp what M\u0101ori are talking about, they only have to read these types of statements to understand how M\u0101ori have to grapple with their reality of, say, living in Wellington or living in Auckland, and never having gone back to what we call their hau k\u0101inga, but feeling their hau k\u0101inga\u2014feeling their hau k\u0101inga. I always talked about it, for me, from a Ng\u0101ti Porou sense, when we used to go through the settlement process and we went through the processes in the 90s. One of the\u2014and the Minister will know\u2014a lot of the k\u014Drero, at the time, was, well, you can\u2019t talk about your iwi if you\u2019re not in your iwi; if you\u2019re not part of your iwi; if you\u2019re living in Auckland, with some, sort, of flash lifestyle and you\u2019re not participating in iwi events in Ruat\u014Dria and what not. The response to that, of course, is that most M\u0101ori don\u2019t live in their rohe; most M\u0101ori can\u2019t participate at hau k\u0101inga level. One of the problems of the process, we always said, was some of those people at the hau k\u0101inga were grabbing the positions and not acknowledging the pan-tribal aspect. There\u2019s been a revitalisation of the reo; there\u2019s been a renaissance in terms of kaupapa M\u0101ori, and so these types of settlements go some way to recognising that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why I like it when I hear that a future that acknowledges our history of landlessness, the forced urbanisation of our people, and the impact of colonisation must be acknowledged. Being M\u0101ori is not just defined by where you grew up, the colour of your skin, or how long you\u2019ve been away from the whenua, from the land\u2014you belong because you are all of us. That\u2019s what M\u0101ori around the country have to feel. That\u2019s what M\u0101ori in Porirua have to feel; M\u0101ori in \u014Ctara\u2014M\u0101ori everywhere. The strategy has to be about how we bring our people together, how they have to all feel M\u0101ori, even though they might not have grown up as M\u0101ori, not growing up speaking M\u0101ori, not growing up in the area, but they know in their hearts that they are M\u0101ori, they whakapapa M\u0101ori. That\u2019s why the line \u201Cbeing M\u0101ori\u201D is not defined by where you grew up, the colour of your skin, or how long you\u2019ve been away from the whenua; you belong because you are all of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe are rebuilding our waka\u2014they\u2019re saying\u2014we are gathering our paddlers, we are strengthening our direction, and one day, with enough of us paddling together, Ng\u0101ti Tumutumu will move beyond the negative impacts of our past and into the prosperous united future our t\u012Bpuna dreamed of. \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EHe hoe, he h\u012Bkoinga, he huarahi m\u014D t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EA paddle, a journey, a pathway for all of us.\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to congratulate the trust on those types of aspirations, on realising the challenge in terms of what we have to do in terms of te ao M\u0101ori, in terms of rangatahi, in terms of realising that the Treaty settlement process, for all its flaws, still is an opportunity to rebuild, to reshape, and to actually take an opportunity in building iwi. That\u2019s where I see this process as being a real opportunity. The redress, of course, is not huge: a settlement package including $5.5 million in financial and commercial redress; the return of 17 culturally significant sites; and additional measures designed to strengthen Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu\u2019s cultural identity and economic base. The iwi will also benefit from redress provided through the Pare Hauraki Collective Redress deed, which addresses overlapping interests across Hauraki iwi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe all know that there\u2019s been a bit of a renaissance in the Hauraki; they\u2019re finding their way, and this will no doubt help in terms of ensuring a better future for them. The iwi have endured land confiscations, questionable Crown purchasing, and extensive mining operations that stripped them of resources and left them virtually landless. Of course, these types of actions devastate them and, in fact, set them so far back that you wonder if they could ever recover, but the negotiations and the relationship with the Crown, particularly in the last few years\u2014and the Crown has been a Labour Government and a National Government\u2014have been cordial. The signing of the deed of settlement represents a signing of some trust and investment in the future. It\u2019s a step forward, without doubt, for the Hauraki iwi. The iwi\u2019s inclusion in the broader Pare Hauraki collective settlement framework will also strengthen regional collaboration, which is really important in terms of the tribe\u2019s future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe support this, obviously, and we mihi to everyone who\u2019s been involved, and we look forward to a third reading, where we\u2019re sure all the different wh\u0101nau and groups will come down and tautoko and celebrate, because these are the types of things that we will celebrate. We\u2019re looking forward to that day\u2014the House celebrating\u2014and having a great k\u014Drero when the third reading approaches. \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EKia ora an\u014D t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022c19e12741db95eb6813452cfef8cb1e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c19e12741db95eb6813452cfef8cb1e5\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green) (10:03)\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora koutou, everybody, and particularly Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu in the gallery today; kia ora. Traveling south from Paeroa, this magnificent maunga rises out of the landscape. You can also come in from Morrinsville and head east, and Te Aroha maunga is a particularly striking geographical site. It is truly beautiful, the ancestral maunga of Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu. One can understand the deep sense of loss that it was for Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu to have this maunga and the magnificent geothermal resources that are part of it quietly stripped away and taken and disrespected, and to have them denied their access to the geothermal waters there, despite promises that access would be maintained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe got a really strong sense, as the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee travelling down there, of how important the recognition of that magnificent natural phenomenon that is the hot water pools there was for Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu. It was gifted by the iwi in 1878 on the condition that the Crown would allow ongoing rights of access to the springs, but by the early 20\u003Csup\u003Eth\u003C/sup\u003E century, M\u0101ori no longer had free access. In fact, there was a form of segregation that went on there. We saw the separate small block down the hill where M\u0101ori were expected to access the hot springs. It was such a glaring example of a segregationist approach by which M\u0101ori were treated in this place: denied access and denied the mana and respect that they deserved for a thing that M\u0101ori had utilised and was part of their story and their ancestral heritage for generations before the British ever arrived here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu defended the Waikato from British invasion in 1863 in the Waikato wars. We know it\u2019s Anzac Week; we\u2019re approaching Anzac weekend. We should remember that M\u0101ori suffered the greatest losses in the New Zealand Wars, and in fact more M\u0101ori died in the New Zealand Wars than in both the First and the Second World Wars combined. More M\u0101ori died in the New Zealand Wars than served in the First World War, at a time when the population was about 60,000 in the 1860s. Some of the highest casualties occurred in the Waikato. These were New Zealanders defending New Zealand, and it is right that we have changed the legislation around Anzac Day, which acknowledges that those New Zealanders who were defending New Zealand from British invasion are now recognised as fully as any others who have served our nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe consequences of those wars were a completely unjust confiscation, a huge confiscation; 290,000 acres of land in the Tauranga district was confiscated. Then, when part of it was returned, it was returned with individualised title. This is a pattern we see: that land was taken out of collective ownership and then turned into individualised ownership. This is a form of economic colonisation, which had a devastating effect on M\u0101ori traditional ownership and land relationships. The economic colonisation of New Zealand is something that we\u2019re getting a greater handle on, understanding just how devastating that was for iwi M\u0101ori, and no less so for Waikato M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s notable, given this Government\u2019s particular passion for mining right now, that one of the desecrations that occurred on Te Aroha maunga was a goldmine which created lasting toxic pollution, damaged the tapu land, and has caused ongoing distress to Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu. This legacy of boom-and-bust economic exploitation invariably leaves the toxic heritage that iwi M\u0101ori have to deal with, long after the miners have packed up, taken their profits, and disappeared. This is one of the examples of a Crown breach and a Crown failing in regard to this iwi settlement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBy the end of the 20\u003Csup\u003Eth\u003C/sup\u003E century, less than 3 percent of the land in the Te Aroha block remained in M\u0101ori ownership, and my colleague Willie Jackson has spoken about the impact of the marginalisation and the loss of land, the loss of economy and self-determination that is a consequence of this colonisation. The Crown acknowledges the extent of its failure and its breaches of Te Tiriti o Waitangi in this settlement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt is but a tiny fragment of the harm and loss that was caused that has been recognised and made amends for by this bill today, but it is certainly the hope of this House and this Parliament, as we speak in unanimity on these bills, that it is a positive step in the journey for Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu, towards your self-determination as an iwi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI note that one of the changes we made in the select committee process was to the wording around recognising the centrality of the maunga in the settlement. In clause 8(1) the \u201CSummary of historical account\u201D has been amended to include \u201CMaunga\u201D following \u201Cthe lands on and surrounding Te Aroha\u201D. This change was made to replicate the wording from the historical account in the Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu deed of settlement, which provides more prominence to the maunga than to the township of Te Aroha.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a very beautiful part of the country, and I believe for us to truly celebrate and enjoy the exquisite nation in which we live, we must make amends for the injustices against M\u0101ori. I cannot, as tangata Tiriti, as a descendant of the Europeans who colonised this land\u2014I cannot\u2014really, deeply enjoy the magnificence of Te Aroha mountain if I don\u2019t have a sense that the original inhabitants and the original kaitiaki, caretakers of that maunga, have their mana and their tino rangatiratanga recognised and acknowledged and upheld.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt is through justice for M\u0101ori that we have a sense of wellbeing for the whole nation. We have a sense of the cohesion and the unity of our nation, underpinned by a principle that there is justice for everybody. That is why it is so important that we fulfil our commitment to that founding agreement, Te Tiriti o Waitangi. That is why we support these settlements, as the Green Party, though we don\u2019t accept the characterisation of them as full and final, because they are part of a relationship that lasts in perpetuity. The importance of that relationship between the Crown and iwi M\u0101ori is vital for the thriving of us as a whole country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe commend this bill to the House and we acknowledge your generosity, Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu in accepting this offering. \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EKia ora koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022440a125e85954bae9f5d470b7551e4f3\u0022 data-id=\u002258b96a31ee0cfd2cb43ee1af0ba625ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022440a125e85954bae9f5d470b7551e4f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258b96a31ee0cfd2cb43ee1af0ba625ee\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT) (10:13)\u003C/span\u003E: I rise to speak on behalf of the ACT Party in this Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu second reading, and \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003Et\u0113n\u0101 koutou\u003C/span\u003E to the members who have made it here, and \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003Et\u0113n\u0101 koe, Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu\u003C/span\u003E who are listening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI live in the Bay of Plenty, and we have many maunga that we see. We can see all the way to Tarawera, we can see P\u016Bwhenua, Mauao most famously, but also where we reside we can see Te Aroha\u2014when you know how to recognise it. Te Aroha Maunga is being placed in an appropriate amount of prominence in this settlement legislation because of the deep connection that it has to all iwi of the Hauraki area, but also the connections it has over and represents metaphorically with the connections into the Bay of Plenty. The historic account recounts the connections that Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu has across the Hauraki and Bay of Plenty, and a lot of the settlement is focused mostly in the Waikato side of the hills there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI have to say, I was pleased to see some of the work that the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee\u2014which I\u2019m not on\u2014has undertaken to make sure that important pieces of infrastructure are not burdens on the new landowners but also maintained in a way\u2014this is the flood protection\u2014that can give confidence to homeowners, landowners, and communities that this is a settlement for everybody; to make sure that, as members have spoken about in previous contributions, the harms of the past can be recognised, that harms in the future can be avoided, and that we can work on building this nation together. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d92a09db28c44070bbfdcc9f0e6f3cca\u0022 data-id=\u0022c700285801b2336af2f8fba25a950ef2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d92a09db28c44070bbfdcc9f0e6f3cca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c700285801b2336af2f8fba25a950ef2\u0022\u003EJENNY MARCROFT (NZ First) (10:15)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker, I rise on behalf of New Zealand First in support of the Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu Claims Settlement Bill, now at its second reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. Ka nui aku mihi maioha ki a koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu, greetings to you all. Many kind regards to you, greetings and thanks to you all.\u003C/span\u003E].\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI acknowledge a small r\u014Dp\u016B here today to be part of the second reading as we progress this bill through to its final conclusion\u2014hopefully not too far away\u2014because it\u2019s taken a mighty long time to get here to this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis bill is obviously the result of 15 long years of negotiations between the Crown and Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu, so it\u2019s important that we are here today to come in for landing at the second reading. The M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, which is probably one of the most enjoyable committees to be on, because you learn so much about our history and our M\u0101ori history and those early years\u2014that select committee does a great job of panel beating any piece of legislation that comes before them, and it\u2019s certainly done a good job with a recommendation that all of the amendments that have been put through the select committee process be passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn 2023, the census estimated around 510 members of the iwi\u2014while small in number, obviously very mighty in mana; and 332 submissions came before the select committee. When you consider how many members of the iwi\u2014510, with 332 submissions, and the Minister noted that there were robust and expansive discussions held through that select committee process. That process is really important, to enable people to give voice to their concerns, of which there were many.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis iwi is one of the original iwi with ancient whakapapa in and around T\u012Bkapa Moana and the Hauraki Gulf. They\u2019ve also been recognised in the broader family of the Hauraki Gulf, the 12 iwi of Hauraki, including Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu, part of the Pare Hauraki Collective in relation to collective redress for those shared interests in the Hauraki region. This bill speaks to those specific iwi matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMuch has been spoken about Te Aroha Maunga, and in legislation, words matter. They matter because they will be there for eternity. The committee noted that there was an omission in the historical account, around the reference of Te Aroha Maunga. The \u201CMaunga\u201D has been reinserted, to ensure that that is the correct place it should have been, so it matched up with the deed. That was a good amendment to make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere were some other amendments around the flood protection assets that are owned by the Waikato Regional Council. Clause 31 has been amended there, with some additional subclauses put in around the Omahu whenua, which would be vested in the trustees of the Ng\u0101ti Tumutumu Trust. The Waikato Regional Council owns and maintains several flood protection assets on and adjacent to the Omahu whenua, so those amendments were necessary to ensure that they can continue to do their work around access management and operational powers relating to that particular thing. R\u0101hiri Tumutumu support those amendments, so it is good that that has been amended at select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAlso, there was some differing views that came through the submissions. \u201CWhat is the correct name of the iwi?\u201D; \u201CShould it include \u2018R\u0101hiri\u2019; should it not include \u2018R\u0101hiri\u2019?\u201D It\u2019s really not for Parliament to make any determinations around that; those are iwi-specific matters. It is not for parliamentarians to tell people who they are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to make a short contribution, because I think it\u2019s important that we move through to the third and final reading as soon as we can. The Ng\u0101ti Tumutumu Trust have made some statements about where they move to towards the third reading, and I\u2019d just like to read from that. They\u2019re beginning the important mahi of bringing their wh\u0101nau together to prepare for the significant milestone, the third and final reading. That reading will be a momentous occasion for them and a chance for all the wh\u0101nau to travel to P\u014Dneke and stand together in their iwi\u2019s journey as it reaches that historic point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOn that note, I\u2019d like to acknowledge all of those who\u2019ve worked hard to bring this bill forward, the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, the Minister, all of the members of the iwi, and all those who made an effort to make submissions at the select committee. Today, another step is taken as the settlement bill makes its way through the House. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022420f72e8bcc84c869a366ff712af8e49\u0022 data-id=\u00221b5a06a3f606e05c99028d0b38cdf567\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022420f72e8bcc84c869a366ff712af8e49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b5a06a3f606e05c99028d0b38cdf567\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Hauraki-Waikato) (10:21)\u003C/span\u003E: \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003ET\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka, otir\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003ET\u014Dia  tapotu ki te moana \u003C/span\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003ETainui\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EM\u0101 wai e t\u014D? M\u0101ku e t\u014D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EUia te pou o t\u014Dku whare kia t\u016B tangatanga\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EHe kapua whakairi n\u0101ku n\u0101 runga mai o Taupiri\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EKo taku kiri ka t\u014Dkia e te anu m\u0101tao \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EE te iwi, wh\u012Btiki, wh\u012Btiki. Ng\u0101 tai e ngunguru nei, whakarewa, whakarongo mai r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EHaul the \u003C/span\u003ETainui\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003E all the way to the sea \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EWho will haul her? I will haul her \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInquire of the columns of my house to stand at ease \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EA suspended cloud of mine from above Mt Taupiri \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EMy skin is moistened by the cold \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003ETo the people, come together, unite. The tides that murmur, rise, listen to me.\u003C/span\u003E] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EKua ara pea ahau i te papa o te whenua, kua kite ahau i ng\u0101 whet\u016B e t\u016B takitahi ana. Ko Matariki te kair\u016Bri, ko Atutahi kei te taumata o Te Mang\u014Droa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EKei te Whare, kei Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu, nei r\u0101 ka mihi ki a koutou. Ko t\u0113nei te reo owha o Ng\u0101ti Mahuta, Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101wh\u0101kia te toro atu ki a koutou i t\u0113nei o \u0101 koutou ker\u0113me kua tae mai ki roto i te Whare P\u0101remata i t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 rangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EPerhaps I arose from the land\u2014I have seen the stars standing alone. Matariki is the one who surveys; Atutahi is positioned at the zenith of the Milky Way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003ETo the House, to Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu, I hereby acknowledge you. This is the voice of Ng\u0101ti Mahuta, Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101wh\u0101kia, extended in welcome to you in this particular claim of yours, you who have come into the House of Parliament today.\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to acknowledge the time, energy, and resources spent by many in this settlement\u201415-plus years of this current phase of negotiations. As I\u2019ve mentioned before in many other settlement readings, I can just imagine the many tears, sweat, and blood it has taken for Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu to get to this point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge how hard the Treaty settlement processes can be. It is so exhausting that people die to get settlements across the line. As an uri of Waikato and of Tainui, our iwi has spent 30 years in the settlement processes, and we\u2019ve seen the many stalwarts such as T\u0101 Te Kotahi Mahuta and the many different \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003Er\u016Bruhi t\u016Bpuna \u003C/span\u003Ewho have put their mahi on the line. I\u2019d just like to acknowledge your t\u016Bpuna, Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu. While this phase has been long, I want to reiterate the point my colleague Teanau Tuiono shared in the first reading of this bill\u2014that Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri brought to this Parliament the issue of the land alienation in 1877 under the Native Affairs Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu, I want to acknowledge your negotiations team; I acknowledge the challenge of keeping your wh\u0101nau up to date when the processes were delayed and as you worked through to resolve overlapping interests with your wider Hauraki wh\u0101nau. \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EKo Moehau te taurapa, ko Te Aroha te tauihu.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EMoehau is the carved stern post, Te Aroha is the prow figure.\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EHistorical grievances covered in this claim include confiscation of land, the Crown\u2019s purchasing tactics, the operation and impacts of native land laws, and the impact of mining. I want to particularly acknowledge the raupatu you too suffered when coming to our assistance in our time of need during Ng\u0101 Pakanga. Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu sent men to fight Crown forces in Waikato in 1863. Like us, you were branded as rebels and penalised with the confiscation of your lands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe settlement provisions within this Treaty settlement include a formal apology, cultural redress, and financial redress: a formal apology from the Crown to Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu for promoting laws and policies that lead to loss of land, damaged the sacred taonga Te Aroha maunga, and undermined your wellbeing and ability to pass on m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori to your mokopuna; cultural redress that includes 18 sites of cultural significance; financial and commercial redress of $5.5 million. It also acknowledges the recognition of the broader Pare Hauraki Collective in relation to the Collective Redress Deed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn particular, I want to acknowledge the restoration of your maunga tapu, \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003Eko t\u014Dna ingoa t\u016Bturu ko Puke-k\u0101k\u0101riki-kai-tahi\u003C/span\u003E [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003Ewhose true name is Puke-k\u0101k\u0101riki-kai-tahi\u003C/span\u003E]. I acknowledge its peaks, Te Aroha-ki-uta, Te Aroha-ki-tai. The mining, proclamation of a gold field in Te Aroha in 1880, and Crown actions have deprived your iwi of control of your own resources.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EHei whakakapinga\u003C/span\u003E[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003Ein conclusion\u003C/span\u003E], in this Treaty settlement process, your whakaaro is to create new taonga that reflect the darkness of your negotiation journey, the struggles faced, and the determination required to emerge into the light. As you have stated: \u201CWe are rebuilding our waka; we are gathering our paddlers; we are strengthening our direction one \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003Ehoe\u003C/span\u003Eat a time; and one day, with enough of us paddling together, Ng\u0101ti Tumutumu will move beyond the negative impacts of our past and into the prosperous united future our t\u016Bpuna dreamed of. \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EHe hoe, he hikoinga, he huarahi m\u014D t\u0101tou katoa.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou i te Whare. Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori supports this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac0798ec0d191bd30a6a5e1ee4776ff4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac0798ec0d191bd30a6a5e1ee4776ff4\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green) (10:25)\u003C/span\u003E:T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker, otir\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003ETuatahi me mihi atu au ki a koutou, Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu. T\u0113nei ng\u0101 K\u0101k\u0101riki e mihi ana ki \u014D koutou nei m\u0101ia, ki \u014D koutou nei mana, me te roa an\u014D hoki o t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 h\u012Bkoi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EKei te whakaaro ake i tau tuatahi i tae mai t\u0113n\u0101 ki t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 Whare i te tau 1870.Tae noa ki t\u0113r\u0101 w\u0101, tae noa ki t\u0113nei w\u0101 kei konei tonu koutou, n\u014D reira e mihi ana, e mihi ana, e mihi ana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EE mihi ana ki a r\u0101tou m\u0101 kua mene atu ki tua o te \u0101rai, r\u0101tou an\u014D i whet\u016Brangihia, ng\u0101 kaum\u0101tua i whakapau kaha, i whakapau werawera kia rite ai t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 whakatau ker\u0113me kia puta ai ki te ao m\u0101rama t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 ture.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EM\u014D t\u0113nei, ko m\u0101tou an\u014D ng\u0101 K\u0101k\u0101riki e tautoko ana i t\u0113nei p\u0101nuitanga tuarua. Ko te manako nui he iti ake ng\u0101 auheke kia tae ki t\u014Dna p\u0101nuitanga tuatoru.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003ETautoko au i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero a t\u014D m\u0101tou nei tangata, Steve Able. Ki a m\u0101tou, ng\u0101 K\u0101k\u0101riki, ehara te Tiriti i te kirimana, he kawenata k\u0113 te Tiriti o Waitangi. Ko t\u0113nei mea te kirimana e tohu ana anei an\u014D te w\u0101riu o te t\u0101ra hei p\u016Btea ki te p\u016Bkoro. K\u0101re m\u0101tou e whakaae ki t\u0113r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EKo t\u0113nei mea te Tiriti o Waitangi he kawenata e whakaora ana mai i te w\u0101 i t\u0101mokohia e ng\u0101 m\u0101tua t\u012Bpuna ki Waitangi, huri noa i Te Ika-a-M\u0101ui, otir\u0101 tae noa ki Te Waipounamu, kia noho \u014D t\u0101tou nei iwi, \u014D t\u0101tou nei hap\u016B ki runga i \u014D r\u0101tou nei mana motuhake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EKi te taha o te P\u0101remata, ki t\u014Dku nei whakaaro, ki a m\u0101tou ng\u0101 K\u0101k\u0101riki, me p\u0113hea te tautoko i ng\u0101 ara kia ora ai te tino rangatiratanga m\u014D ia hap\u016B, m\u014D ia iwi, m\u014D ia wh\u0101nau. T\u0113r\u0101 te w\u0101hanga an\u014D ki a m\u0101tou, n\u014D reira t\u0113nei ka mihi atu ki a koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EMe whakaaro nui tonu ai ki ng\u0101 h\u012Btori o Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu. I tae r\u0101tou ki roto i ng\u0101 pakanga o te raupatu ki Waikato, n\u014D reira e tautoko i t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 mihi a Hana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke, t\u014D koutou nei m\u0101ia, t\u014D r\u0101tou nei m\u0101ia kia tae ki te \u0101whina i \u014D r\u0101tou nei wh\u0101nau ki te whawhai ki ng\u0101 p\u016B o Piritana Nui, ng\u0101 p\u016B a te P\u0101keh\u0101. Ka kite an\u014D i t\u0113r\u0101, te m\u0101ia o te iwi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EN\u0101 runga i t\u0113r\u0101 i raupatuhia te whenua, i raupatuhia t\u014D r\u0101tou nei maunga, n\u014D reira Te Aroha maunga, t\u0113nei ka mihi atu, t\u0113nei te mihi atu ki t\u014D koutou nei ata. K\u0101re an\u014D ahau kia tae ki te maunga, ki a Te Aroha maunga, heoi an\u014D ka whai whakaaro kia tae atu.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EE ai ki ng\u0101 h\u012Btori, he maina koura te mahi ki roto i t\u0113r\u0101. Ko ng\u0101 para i tukuna ki roto mai i t\u0113r\u0101 maina e p\u0101 ana ki te hapori o Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu. Heoi an\u014D ko te katoa o ng\u0101 rawa i ahu mai i \u0113r\u0101 maina k\u0101re i tae ki ng\u0101 p\u016Bkoro o te iwi, kei tangata k\u0113 atu. N\u014D reira ko t\u0113nei ture, me whai w\u0101hi me p\u0113hea e whakatikatikahia ai.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira me mihi ka tika ki te Komiti Whiriwhiri Take M\u0101ori, e mahi ana i ng\u0101 mahi ki roto i ng\u0101 tukanga a te P\u0101remata.Ko \u0113tahi w\u0101hanga i hiahia r\u0101tou kia paku panonihia ki roto i te ture, te tuatahi i k\u014Drero tahi r\u0101tou me te kaunihera \u0101-rohe, me Waikato, me p\u0113hea te tautoko i ng\u0101 \u0101huatanga o te waipuke, flood protection gates. He whakaaro pai an\u014D t\u0113r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EHe w\u0101hanga an\u014D t\u0113r\u0101 hoki kia noho p\u016B te aronga o te maunga o Te Aroha ki roto i te ture i te mea, ki taku nei whakarongo ki ng\u0101 k\u014Drero e huri haere ana i te Whare i te ata nei, kei reira an\u014D te mana n\u014D reira e tika ana kia noho te mana o te maunga, te p\u016B o te maunga, ehara n\u014D te P\u0101remata, t\u0101tou an\u014D e whakarite ana i ng\u0101 ture, te maunga kei roto i t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 ture.N\u014D reira e mihi ana ki te komiti whiri take m\u014D t\u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 \u0101huatanga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EKo te mea i kite au ki roto i te katoa o \u0113nei momo ture i ahu mai i ng\u0101 whakatau ker\u0113me, ko t\u0113tahi w\u0101hanga an\u014D m\u014D \u0101 t\u0101tou nei tamariki mokopuna, ko t\u0113nei mea te h\u012Btori. He h\u012Btori an\u014D t\u0113r\u0101 m\u014D t\u0101tou katoa, \u014D t\u0101tou nei rangatahi, kia \u0101kona e r\u0101tou ng\u0101 h\u012Btori kei raro i ng\u0101 rekereke i a r\u0101tou e h\u012Bkoi ana ki runga i te whenua.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira t\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou, Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThank you, Madam Speaker; indeed, greetings to us all in the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EFirst, I should acknowledge you, Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu. We, the Greens, hereby acknowledge your courage, your power, and the length of this particular journey. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EI consider that the first year that this came to this House was in 1870. Right from that time and all the way to now, you are still here; therefore, I acknowledge, thank, and congratulate you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EI acknowledge those who have gathered beyond the veil, those who have become star-like, the elders who expended their strength, that expended sweat to prepare this particular claim settlement, so that this particular legislation see the light of day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003ERegarding this, it is us, the Greens, that are in support of this second reading. Our great hope is that the difficulties are few as it reaches its third reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EI support the comments of our colleague, Steve Abel. To us, the Greens, the Treaty is not a contract; the Treaty of Waitangi is instead a covenant. This particular phenomenon\u2014a contract\u2014demonstrates that this is the dollar value for money in the pocket. We don\u2019t agree with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThis phenomenon, the Treaty of Waitangi, is a covenant that was given life at the time of its signing by the forebears and ancestors in Waitangi, all around the North Island, and indeed all the way to the South Island, so that our iwi and our hap\u016B could retain their own self-determination. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EWith respect to Parliament, in my opinion, to us the Greens, the question is how we could support the pathways by which the sovereignty of each hap\u016B, of each iwi and each family, can be realised. That is our role, and so I hereby acknowledge you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EDue consideration must also be given to the histories of Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu. They were involved in the wars of confiscation in Waikato; therefore, I support the acknowledgements of Hana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke: of your courage, and for their courage to arrive there to provide assistance to their relatives to fight against the firearms of Great Britain, the firearms of the P\u0101keh\u0101. You see that\u2014the courage of the people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EIt is due to that that their land was confiscated, and their mountain was confiscated; therefore, I acknowledge Te Aroha mountain\u2014I hereby acknowledge you this morning. I have yet to make it to the mountain, to Mount Te Aroha, however, I intend to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EAccording to the histories, the predominant activity there was goldmining. The waste expelled from within that affected the community of Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu. However, none of the assets that came from those mines made it into the pockets of the iwi; instead, other people have them. Therefore, this legislation should include how this may be corrected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003ETherefore, the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee should be acknowledged, those that conduct the activities within the processes of Parliament. Some of the sections that they wanted to be amended somewhat within the legislation: the first is consultation between them and the regional council, Waikato, on how to support the circumstances of flooding, i.e., flood protection gates. That is a worthy idea. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EAnother section is the explicit inclusion of the mountain, Te Aroha, within the legislation, because, as I listened to the comments circulating around the House this morning, it included authority; therefore, it is appropriate that the power of the mountain, the provenance of the mountain, does not reside with Parliament\u2014those of us that create legislation, that the mountain is included in this particular legislation. Therefore, I acknowledge the select committee of that sphere. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThe thing that I observed within this type of legislation born of claims settlements is a section for our children and grandchildren, i.e., history. That is history for all of us, our young people, so that they are taught the histories at the feet of those that walked the land. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003ETherefore, greetings to House. Greetings to you, Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu. Greetings to us all.\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b27d8609c612411686d517d0f9b09b28\u0022 data-id=\u00229ad27cefbf8ed7139a9203784dbcb02e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d8609c612411686d517d0f9b09b28\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ad27cefbf8ed7139a9203784dbcb02e\u0022\u003EDAVID MacLEOD (National\u2014New Plymouth) (10:31)\u003C/span\u003E: \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003ET\u0113n\u0101 koe te M\u0101ngai. Te mihi tuatahi ki ng\u0101 manuhiri o Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu, nau mai, haramai, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThank you, Mr Speaker. The first greeting is to our guests, Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu; welcome, welcome, and greetings to you all.\u003C/span\u003E] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhenever I stand to talk in a reading of a Treaty settlement, I honestly treat it as an absolute honour. I say that because we have a participation in what is going to be scribed into history, and it\u2019s an important part of history that I\u2019m sure many iwi that have been through the process acknowledge. Clearly, the history that we talk to is not always a good history, and Treaty settlements are put in place to correct those wrongdoings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat I also like to do when I speak to Treaty settlements is to talk to viewers about who it is that we\u2019re talking about. When we say iwi, not everybody\u2019s familiar with where they\u2019re from and that, and I think it\u2019s important that they do. So Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu are of Te Aroha maunga, and I\u2019ll talk to that name specifically, because that was one of the amendments we made within the bill from the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee. It is of the Hauraki Plains, obviously. They also have interests in the Kaimai range, out to Katikati and also to Te Puna, but also the Coromandel Peninsula. Hopefully that gives everybody a bit of a bearing of who this iwi is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAlso, the name is interesting, and I\u2019ve learnt a lot, as I do with every Treaty settlement that I go through. Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu has two specific names, R\u0101hiri and Tumutumu, and I\u2019d like to just briefly talk to that for people\u2019s understanding. Tumutumu: that name there actually comes from Ng\u0101ti Raukawa, a neighbouring or very close iwi itself, and it is said within the settlement\u2014and people can read this here\u2014it traces their origins to Te Ruinga, the son of Tumutumu from Ng\u0101ti Raukawa. Also R\u0101hiri itself: people may be familiar with Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri of the Far North, up in Ng\u0101puhi, and that is indeed the R\u0101hiri that we\u2019re talking about here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m from Taranaki; there\u2019s actually Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri in North Taranaki as well. It\u2019s actually in the Tikorangi area, just north of Waitara. Once again, R\u0101hiri was a prolific traveller, obviously, and I understand that he travelled through Auckland, the Bay of Plenty, and also down to Ng\u0101ti Taranaki. So there are the connections of Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu with regards to this Treaty settlement claim.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe process itself was a good process, as it should be. It was an emotional process. We had the occasion as a committee to have a hearing up at Te Aroha, at the railway station building, which is a lovely building to hold the occasion, but we also had another hearing here in Wellington. As it is for all Treaty settlements that I\u2019ve been involved with, submissions come with emotions\u2014not just the emotions of the loss and the grievance of what has preceded what today is but also the challenges of the present-day situation. It wasn\u2019t surprising to me, because I do see it quite often, that when you have a large grouping of people\u2014when you talk about the membership of Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu, you\u2019re talking about at least 510 members, according to the last census that was held. When you have a large grouping your members, to think that everybody\u2019s singing from the same song sheet is probably a little bit of an impossibility, from my experience. We did have some strong submissions about the process that was there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe select committee did propose two amendments; they\u2019ve been spoken about by previous speakers. I should mention those, the first one being the name Te Aroha maunga, as I spoke of earlier. In the bill originally, it just spoke of Te Aroha, and, quite correctly, through consultation with the iwi, it was more fitting for it to be Te Aroha maunga. That was corrected in consultation with iwi, and everybody is in agreement with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe second amendment that has been proposed is the flood protection assets of the Waikato Regional Council. Clearly, these are assets that the public, including M\u0101ori, have contributed to. Flood protection assets are there for the protection of not just public but also private assets themselves, and I\u2019m very pleased to see that the iwi acknowledged the importance of that and made sure that the Waikato Regional Council had the ability to manage those assets appropriately. Thank you to the iwi for that itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere were other areas of interest that were brought up through the submission process. Even the name of the post-settlement governance entity: it is actually named Ng\u0101ti Tumutumu Trust\u2014doesn\u2019t actually have the R\u0101hiri in there. It was submitted to us whether that was right or wrong by some of the submitters, but the committee took what I believe is the absolutely appropriate approach: that\u2019s not our business; that is your business to sort out. We left that to them to talk of that, and I\u2019m sure there have been many discussions subsequent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe relationship between the iwi and the maunga, I spoke about that: Te Aroha maunga. I\u2019m from Taranaki; Taranaki Maunga is significant for me, and it doesn\u2019t surprise me the significance that was placed in the submissions with regards to that there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere was an interesting one, and perhaps the iwi are not so aware of this, but there was a submission, or should I say a report given back, from the Regulations Review Committee. Now, I\u2019ve been on the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee for a short time, but for the Treaty settlements I\u2019ve been involved with, it\u2019s not unusual that this kaupapa, this subject, comes up from the Regulations Review Committee. It\u2019s specifically about a few clauses within this bill\u201489, 90, and 91\u2014but it actually comes up with other settlements. These are the clauses that Te Tari Whakatau puts into the settlement in agreement with iwi. There is actually a common clause that\u2019s been put in there, and it\u2019s often been raised by the Regulations Review Committee. So, subsequent to this particular clause, the committee has chosen to actually open up a briefing with the Regulations Review Committee to set this straight once and for all. This is to do with secondary legislation and regulations and how it\u2019s used in it. I don\u2019t think there\u2019s any worry about it, about what\u2019s been put in place with previous settlements, or this one here itself. It\u2019s a bit more of a parliamentary process that we have to run through to perhaps make sure we\u2019ve got a clear understanding but put this to bed once and for all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWith that, I\u2019m very pleased to support this through its second reading, and I look forward to the committee of the whole House, which is occurring later on today as well. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f988bc72b5e47b8856ba70e41dfbbaf\u0022 data-id=\u00224070732b90b75961fd0d55443c0e3db6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f988bc72b5e47b8856ba70e41dfbbaf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224070732b90b75961fd0d55443c0e3db6\u0022\u003EGEORGIE DANSEY (Labour) (10:38)\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m honoured to rise to speak to the Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu Claims Settlement Bill, second reading. I\u2019d like to acknowledge the iwi and wh\u0101nau who have come to the House today for this reading and really commend you on your mahi getting this bill to its second reading. \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003ET\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis bill records the acknowledgements and apology made to Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu when the deed was signed, and gives effect to redress in the deed that requires legislation. It\u2019s been a really long journey, as other speakers have spoken to\u201415 years of negotiations, and a long-awaited agreement. I hope that this bill acknowledges the past and looks to a stronger future. I know that the journey over the past 15 years speaks to resilience and hope for the iwi. I commend the show of unity and determination from Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu in working with the Crown to get to this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis settlement serves as an apology from the Crown on the wrongs committed\u2014namely, the confiscated 290,000 acres of land in the Tauranga district between 1865 and 1868; the retainment of the hot springs near Te Aroha by the Crown, and despite the Crown giving the use of the land back to the iwi by the early 20\u003Csup\u003Eth\u003C/sup\u003E century, I\u2019m aware that M\u0101ori no longer had free access to the springs or input into the management of the site; the acquisition of the land in Te Aroha and Te Aroha maunga; and developments that continued into the 1960s by the Crown. This included the construction of a road to the summit of Te Aroha maunga and the granting of a mining licence to a private company. Consequences of these actions meant that the site became severely polluted and there was significant damage to the land and maunga. By the end of the 20\u003Csup\u003Eth\u003C/sup\u003E century, less than 3 percent of the land in the Te Aroha bloc remained in M\u0101ori ownership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENothing can right the wrongs of the past, but I hope that this bill brings a degree of closure to the people and a hope for the future of the iwi, for your tamariki and your mokopuna. We know that the harm caused continued over successive generations. This speaks to many years of socio-economic deprivation and the disconnection from wh\u0101nau and hap\u016B that they had with their whenua. We know that many people of the wh\u0101nau of the iwi ended up living outside of traditional lands, disconnected from their tikanga, t\u016Brangawaewae, and wh\u0101nau, which also came with a significant loss of te reo M\u0101ori and restricted ability for the wh\u0101nau to pass m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori on to their mokopuna.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAs I speak on this bill, I speak with two simultaneous feelings of immense privilege and pride, and also one of whakam\u0101. You see, I grew up in the rohe of Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu. When I was eight, my wh\u0101nau moved to the foot of the Kaimai Mamaku ranges. The property my parents purchased on Lockington Road backed onto the Kaimai Mamaku forest park. I feel privilege and pride because your rohe is so entrenched in my memories of childhood. My stepfather was a hunter, so I spent a lot of time in the ngahere, the bush, that backed off from our property. I spent many a day of my childhood swimming in the oceans near Waihi Beach and swimming in the swimming holes and the many awa that flow from the maunga. Thirty years later, my parents still live in your rohe, and I consider the shores of Bowentown Beach one of the few places that I truly feel at home. It is this beauty and the incredible memories that bring me to the privilege I have and hold dearly here, that I can contribute a very small amount to a place that I treasure so much by acknowledging the people who are truly tangata whenua of the rohe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI also feel very whakam\u0101. I feel whakam\u0101, because when I went to Katikati Primary School and when I went to Katikati College, I didn\u2019t know the name of the iwi. I didn\u2019t know the wrongs of the past that were inflicted on you, and I didn\u2019t know the whakapapa of the place where I grew up. In a place that brought me so much taonga and aroha, I grew up not knowing about its history.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFrom those two places, there comes hope\u2014hope that with a settlement and some redress, your tamariki and mokopuna will learn their tikanga, their whakapapa, and m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori. By being able to reclaim sites of cultural importance, create opportunities for rangatahi, and rebuild your iwi presence, there is opportunity and there is hope. It brings me hope that the future of all the kids, whether they\u2019re M\u0101ori, P\u0101keh\u0101, or other, will grow up understanding the commitment to Te Tiriti o Waitangi to know the iwi and hap\u016B of that rohe that they are in and learn the importance of knowing that. It gives me hope that the next 8-year-old who moves to Katikati will understand whose land they are living on, that when they go to Katikati Primary and Katikati College, they will learn about the tikanga of the place, the whakapapa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe settlement is a significant milestone in Aotearoa\u2019s journey in recognising Te Tiriti, but we must go further, and this bill demonstrates that for me strongly. In order to achieve full partnership with M\u0101ori, we must ensure that our tamariki and rangatahi have the knowledge and the history of Aotearoa New Zealand, that m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori is embedded in our communities. Through the settlement, the Crown seeks to atone for these injustices and rebuild a relationship based on trust and honourable Treaty partnership. I hope this settlement, for your iwi, brings that. I hope this is an opportunity for you to bring your tikanga home, to build a flourishing wh\u0101nau and hap\u016B within your own whenua for all of the future generations to come. There is an opportunity for reconnection of your people to their whenua, tikanga, and te reo so that the mokopuna of Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu feel connected to their whenua, awa, tikanga, and te reo M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt is a great pleasure to be able to speak on this bill on the second reading. I wasn\u2019t involved in the select committee process, but I know the land so well\u2014walking up Te Aroha maunga. Other speakers have spoken about that beautiful, beautiful place, and I am so pleased that we\u2019ve got to a position through a lot of, I know, pain and acceptance. I hope that this apology will speak deeply to your wh\u0101nau about the future of hope and the opportunities that lay ahead of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker, it is with great pleasure that I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290a05c0f561045159bf3351d524a65ac\u0022 data-id=\u00227a61331ff2d6a5d72e24efdac1b2b7b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290a05c0f561045159bf3351d524a65ac\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a61331ff2d6a5d72e24efdac1b2b7b3\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato) (10:47)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Like the speaker who has just resumed her seat, I have also had the good fortune of spending many years throughout my life in that area, and, indeed, now also have the even greater fortune of representing the most beautiful electorate in the country, being the Waikato electorate, which, on its eastern edge, includes this beautiful area of Te Aroha; the mountain, of course, that towers over the landscape from across the Waikato, really, but certainly in that local community; and, indeed, the fantastic people that make up that community as well. It\u2019s a pleasure to be able to make a contribution here in the second reading of the Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu Claims Settlement Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, we have heard from the chair of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee and from the Minister. I want to acknowledge the work done in particular from the committee for their efforts. They came and visited Te Aroha. That wasn\u2019t the hard part; it was getting them to leave again that was the hard part, because it\u2019s such a beautiful community, as I\u2019ve mentioned. It was great to have them come up and meet locally there as well and, indeed, to address some of the concerns raised by submitters and also to touch on one of the concerns in particular that I\u2019ve had raised with me around the Te Aroha hospital land continuing to be available for the community, at a price that\u2019s achievable for the community as well. We were able to have those fears allayed, which was fantastic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s particularly pleasing to see this process now reaching the end of what has been a challenging journey over a substantial period of time and to see now the Crown apology, the historical account, and, indeed, the financial redress, that helps to put a line in the sand and acknowledge that there have been challenges but there is opportunity as well. I think that\u2019s always the focus whenever there is a difficult situation\u2014that one works through to try and look at where the opportunity might be going forward. I\u2019m sure we\u2019ll traverse that more in the committee of the whole House stage, in the third reading stage. I do need to keep my contribution limited, so I will commend it to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa74aa8690da1f79c85ee43e59a57225\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call. I call Camilla Belich.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022 data-id=\u00225fba67033725e5dcdb8c81929030e1c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225fba67033725e5dcdb8c81929030e1c4\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour) (10:50)\u003C/span\u003E: \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003ET\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. Ko te mihi tuatahi ki a Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu. Ko te mihi tuarua ki t\u014D koutou maunga, Te Aroha; ki t\u014D koutou awa, Waihau; ki t\u014D koutou moana; ki t\u014D koutou marae, Tumutumu. Ng\u0101 mihi nui ki ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata e noho ana i roto i t\u0113nei Whare, me ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata e kite i t\u0113nei k\u014Drero i roto i te pouaka whakaata, ng\u0101 rorohiko, i roto i te Whare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EGreetings to you all. The first greeting is to Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu. The second acknowledgement is to your mountain, Te Aroha; to your river, Waihau; to your ocean; and to your marae, Tumutumu. Many greetings to the people who now sit within this House, and those that are watching these speeches on the television, on computers, and in the House.\u003C/span\u003E] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt is a very significant opportunity for any parliamentarian to be able to speak on a Treaty settlement bill. It\u2019s not an opportunity that comes often, especially to those of us who don\u2019t sit on the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, but it\u2019s always an opportunity to reflect on the history of our country and also of the different iwi and hap\u016B who make up such an important part of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve had a good look at this bill that\u2019s being put forward, and I commend anyone who is watching to look through, especially the historical account. This historical account has been prepared with care and is a very, very difficult thing to read in terms of everything that has happened to this particular group, Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu, over a period of time. I read through it all and I felt a deep sadness that your people had had to suffer through such immense attacks and loss. I know that being here will be bittersweet in terms of moving forward, but I\u2019m also sure that your t\u012Bpuna are proud of you for the work that you\u2019ve done, and I\u2019m sure that your descendants will thank you for being able to take this historic step today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI wanted just to note\u2014I do have a shorter call, and I don\u2019t want to prolong this, because I know that you\u2019ve waited long enough for this settlement\u2014that one of the things that the Crown is actually acknowledging and apologising for is the Acts of this Parliament. I had a bit of a look at where the District Lands Act in 1867 and 1868 would have been done in this very place, in Wellington. The Parliament was moved, as I understand it, in 1865\u2014so we\u2019re standing, really, and apologising for actions that were taken by a predecessor of this House in this place. That is very significant, because the effect of the passage of that legislation, as this bill acknowledges, left you almost landless\u2014\u201Cvirtually landless\u201D is what it says here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the mana of the land and also of your people, and what I know of M\u0101ori, which is not a lot, and what I know of the importance of land, which is a lot less than you know and many other people know. The simple affection that Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu must have for the maunga Te Aroha in order to name it Te Aroha\u2014one of the strongest emotions that you can express\u2014and to have that maunga lost to you throughout such a period of time must have just been horrendous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not an area where I\u2019ve lived, but I wanted to say how striking it was to me to read through the historical account and everything that the Crown is acknowledging\u2014and I want to also acknowledge the apology, which is really important; I probably don\u2019t have time to read all of that, but I did note it down here that it is a substantive apology and it acknowledges substantive wrongs. One of the things I noticed when I was looking through the information is the thing that Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu did, not only in taking this forward, was also to have a taonga carved for this process by your kaiwhakairo Ben Whittaker. What mana of a people and an iwi to not only go through this substantive settlement process to move your people and this issue forward but to create a taonga to bring to Parliament to acknowledge this. I wanted to acknowledge everyone associated with this process and commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cf22a832d14a4c99ab5dfd16e24446e5\u0022 data-id=\u0022bce07f516995e71e4b9087c4d718f25a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf22a832d14a4c99ab5dfd16e24446e5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bce07f516995e71e4b9087c4d718f25a\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini) (10:55)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s lovely, actually, to be able to stand up and add my k\u014Drero in the second reading of this very important settlement bill. I want to welcome those of you who are in the gallery today. I\u2019m also looking forward to your small but mighty wh\u0101nau coming in for the third reading, God willing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge you up in the gallery, if you don\u2019t mind, Madam Speaker. Jill Taylor, thank you very much for the aroha you showed us around Te Aroha mountain and for the care you all took\u2014you as well, sir, and the chair of the trust, Daniel Braid, in explaining a lot of what came across as kind of nuances to us, but also sharing what your ancestors have been through that has led to this point. It\u2019s something that was very memorable; we started by the railway there, and then we took our little tiki tour around. It\u2019s something that\u2019s tattooed in my memory; it was a very beautiful and special day, and you guys are a special iwi as well\u2014like I said, small but mighty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI look forward to the third reading where we can celebrate, but of course always underpinned with that reflection on the sadness of the past but looking forward to the positivity that the future can bring. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc5df856d19845fdaba4418087cd3bba\u0022 data-id=\u0022eaed921407b2e66a374a0072289041bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc5df856d19845fdaba4418087cd3bba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eaed921407b2e66a374a0072289041bf\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Labour) (10:57)\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora, Madam Speaker, and kia ora, Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu\u2014\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003Eng\u0101 mihi ki a k\u014Drua\u003C/span\u003E. It\u2019s lovely to see you here for this second reading of this claims settlement bill. It\u2019s not often that I\u2019ve had the opportunity to get up and speak on a claims settlement bill, but I specifically asked to do this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFor a short time, I was on the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee\u2014about 9 months\u2014and in those 9 months, I was fortunate enough to be sitting through the process of this particular claims settlement bill, the Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu Claims Settlement Bill. I\u2019d like to acknowledge the Minister\u2014we\u2019ve heard that here before; as the Hon Willie Jackson said, it\u2019s not an easy position. It is a very difficult position to be the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations, and you get a bit of raru coming your way. I have to say, to get through to this stage is something to be very proud of with any iwi and any iwi settlement. I\u2019d also like to acknowledge the chair of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, David MacLeod. I think that he has a real heart for this work and for making certain that the mana of the iwi is upheld at all times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA lot has been traversed in this particular reading here today. We\u2019ve heard about the changes that we made through the select committee process, but I particularly wanted to talk about the day that we spent over in Te Aroha\u2014and I too want to acknowledge you, Jill, and the work that you and Nicola have done in the process. It\u2019s been a long process, and we\u2019re nearly there. It\u2019s a good feeling that we\u2019re nearly there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt was not that long before the end of last year that we went through to Te Aroha, and it\u2019s not a long drive for me; I live in Tauranga. I\u2019ve often seen the other side of the maunga, but seeing the Te Aroha side and going through and spending that day there, it had a real impact on me. I came away from that day thinking that every member of this House needs to have the experience of sitting through Treaty claims settlements, because it does hit you here. It impacted me so much that I came away thinking about the hurts and the wrongs that have happened to you and to other iwi over time, and how it\u2019s important that we get this process right. It is important that we listen; it is important that we hear the raru. It is important that we sit there and be humble in that process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESitting, as my colleague Rima Nakhle said on the other side, in that railway station and hearing the hurt from many different perspectives was something that, as I said, sits with you. It\u2019s something that you can\u2019t leave that situation without feeling that we\u2019ve got to do better and we\u2019ve got to do better, for now, to somehow heal that hurt, but, also, we\u2019ve got to do better for future generations, as well, so that that hurt never has to be there again and we\u2019re not sitting in that situation in another 150 years and having to go through the same process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI remember my former colleague, the Rt Hon Adrian Rurawhe, who gave a very gentle but firm\u2014in the only way that Adrian can do\u2014challenge to everybody in that room that day that this is not the end of the process. This is the beginning. It\u2019s kind of like a transition, and it\u2019s the beginning of a new part of the process. It\u2019s time for new work to be done, to move forward and to repair the hurt. That sat with me that day, too, because I know Adrian has been through his own Treaty settlements and knew the division that can be caused in the process. But we\u2019ve also got to remember that that division was caused hundreds of years ago through colonisation, and now it\u2019s time to put that right and acknowledge that and the coming-together. That\u2019s not going to be an easy process, but it\u2019s one that I know that people are up for and that the iwi are up for, and they\u2019ve already started a whole lot of work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s where I\u2019ll go on to the next part of that day, is that we then got to see around\u2014and many of the people that were there that day have already acknowledged the fact that we walked, with members of the iwi, through the Te Aroha domain and heard about the hurt that has happened over so many years. My colleague Steve Abel talked about the separatism that hurt; the resources that the iwi generously allowed people to have and to participate in the resources of the geothermal area that, as an iwi, back then, they generously let other people partake in, only to have it stolen from them and then to be given the small bath house back that they could use. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI can remember asking the dumbest question of Jill that day, because we\u2019d gone round the whole of the domain and we\u2019d seen the pools and we\u2019d seen all the beautiful areas, and then we came on to this\u2014it\u2019s really hard to describe it, to get that feeling; it\u2019s kind of one of those moments you had to be there\u2014but this little tiny shed and they opened the door and said, \u201CThis was where the M\u0101ori were allowed to bathe.\u201D Also, with people that had skin conditions, they were put into the separate little area. I remember saying, \u201COh, was it bigger than this?\u201D\u2014\u201CNo, no, no. This has actually been done up since then.\u201D And I just could not believe it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt was one of those moments that I had that I went, oh, my goodness, this is just\u2014what have we done as people, what have we done as a nation, that we did this and created so much hurt and how much this meant to the people, the \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003Etangata whenua\u003C/span\u003E, the \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003Emana whenua\u003C/span\u003E of the time and now, and the fact that it\u2019s taken so long and that hurt has just amplified and amplified and amplified over time. That\u2019s what it meant to me that day. I went away and I looked you up and I looked the iwi up on your website, and I started to see your own journey back to restoring who you are as a people and the work that you\u2019ve done in restoring the mauri\u2014or you\u2019re starting to restore the mauri\u2014of the maunga, and the work of restoring the people\u2019s mana and how passionate you are about making this a better journey going forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s what I took from that day, and I knew that we had to make sure that we got this settlement through in a way\u2014as I\u2019m sure every other member of the select committee did that particular day\u2014so that it\u2019s somehow restoring some of the hurt. It\u2019s not going to go all the way, but it\u2019s going to somehow restore some of that hurt and say\u2014we don\u2019t have a magic wand. We can\u2019t go back to the past. We can\u2019t restore and change direction that past has happened, but we can look forward and we can look forward to how we can make a difference now and how we can support you and your goals and your aspirations for what you want for now, for your people, for your tamariki and your mokopuna, and what you want for all of the future generations that you see in front of you, and how we can help be part of that journey, but not dictate the journey. That\u2019s your journey from now, but we will be there to support and make sure that not only are we standing up for the wrongs that have happened in the past but ensuring that those wrongs don\u2019t happen in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESo I go back to where I started; I think every member of this House needs to have such an experience. It will change members of this House when they walk through and see first-hand. It\u2019s different than being able to read about it in books. Actually walking through and seeing the hurt, but seeing the aspirations and knowing that we can make a difference in this House, is what every single member of this House needs to experience. With that, I absolutely, wholeheartedly commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227ef423fda7b143b890e93f8018529ebe\u0022 data-id=\u0022e870adbfdb1a61a9397dfb63685d8840\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ef423fda7b143b890e93f8018529ebe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e870adbfdb1a61a9397dfb63685d8840\u0022\u003EGREG FLEMING (National\u2014Maungakiekie) (11:06)\u003C/span\u003E: \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EN\u014Dku te maringanui ki te k\u014Drero e p\u0101 ana ki t\u0113nei pire, te pire whakatau m\u014D te iwi, Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EKi a Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou, nau mai an\u014D ki t\u0113nei Whare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EKi ng\u0101 mema atu kua k\u014Drero i t\u0113nei ata, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou i te \u0101ta whakaaro me te \u0101ta k\u014Drero. Ko te \u0101hua o t\u0113nei momo kaupapa, te whakatau o t\u0113nei pire, ko te tino \u0101hua o t\u0113nei Whare. Kua rangona e koutou t\u0113r\u0101 \u0101hua, t\u0113r\u0101 atawhai i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero katoa. \u0100kene pea i te nuinga o ng\u0101 k\u014Drero.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EKo te haepapa o t\u0113nei Whare \u0101ianei ko te tuku atu i t\u0113nei pire ki te Whare i t\u0113nei ahiahi, ka \u0101ta whakaaro m\u0101 te taumata, ko te ingoa o t\u0113r\u0101 taumata ko te \u201Cselect committees\u201D, \u0101, k\u0101tahi \u0101 t\u0113r\u0101 marama, \u0101 t\u0113r\u0101 atu marama waihoki, ka haere mai, ka hoki mai ng\u0101 iwi katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003ETe mutunga k\u0113 mai o te harikoa m\u014D t\u0113r\u0101 wheako, te whakanui o te whakatau, te mutunga o t\u0113nei haerenga, \u0101, ko te t\u012Bmatanga o te anamata hou. Koir\u0101 te t\u016Bmanako, koir\u0101 te kitenga, koir\u0101 te tino tirohanga o t\u0113nei momo kaupapa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EN\u0101 reira, an\u014D, n\u014Dku te tino maringanui ki te t\u016B i roto i t\u0113nei Whare, \u0101, ka tuku atu i te pire nei ki te Whare.T\u0113n\u0101 koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EIt is my great fortune to speak on this bill, the settlement bill for the people, Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003ETo Ng\u0101ti R\u0101hiri Tumutumu, greetings to you. Greetings and welcome back to this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003ETo the other members who have spoken this morning, greetings to you who carefully considered and spoken. The nature of this type of initiative, the settlement of this bill, is the true nature of this House. You have felt that nature, that care within each speech\u2014or, perhaps, the majority of speeches. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThe responsibility of this House now is to dispatch this bill to the House this afternoon, at which stage it will be carefully considered\u2014the name of the stage is \u201Cselect committees\u201D\u2014and then, next month, and the month after, also, all of the iwi will come; they will return. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003ESuch great joy for that experience, the celebration of the settlement, the conclusion of this journey, and the beginning of the new future. That is the hope, that is the vision, that is the true perspective of this type of initiative. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003ETherefore, again, it is my great fortune to stand in this House, and to commend this bill to the House. Thank you all.\u003C/span\u003E]  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d53376fbbe851348b74f08c8c11ece8c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220050d2814e76a465b99e3f7f0ed239ae\u0022\u003EOnline Casino Gambling Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b356a3f66b68c8343f0d89fd7260965d\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222204e041e14c40fcbec76cc14f0da486\u0022 data-id=\u0022f308862315cdf99ab0e39a13ff3fa574\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222204e041e14c40fcbec76cc14f0da486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f308862315cdf99ab0e39a13ff3fa574\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister of Internal Affairs) (11:09)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the Online Casino Gambling Bill be now read a third time\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EToday marks an important milestone in strengthening New Zealand\u2019s approach to gambling harm and consumer protection. The Online Casino Gambling Bill represents a significant and long-overdue step forward. The bill also supports this Government\u2019s coalition agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBefore the House reaches its final decision on the Online Casino Gambling Bill, I want to acknowledge the many people who have contributed to its development. I thank the Governance and Administration Committee members for their consideration of this bill, and I thank all those who took the time to make submissions on online casino gambling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI also acknowledge colleagues across the House for their engagement throughout the bill\u2019s passage, and I thank my officials for their work on this bill. As members of this House will be aware, online casino gambling is already widespread, easily accessible, and currently unregulated. There is no recourse when things go wrong. That is the gap that this bill seeks to close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis bill establishes a licensing system for online casino operators. It sets out clear requirements for harm minimisation, creates a strong enforcement regime, and ensures that a share of revenue returns to New Zealand communities. This bill allows for a competitive market while also providing Kiwis who wish to gamble with safer, regulated options to do so. Licensed operators will have to meet consumer protection obligations, including minimising the risk of harm from online casino gambling. They must identify and assist those experiencing harm, exclude problem gamblers, and must not offer credit for gambling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis bill allows up to 15 licences to be issued for online casino gambling. Operators from overseas and in New Zealand can apply if they are suitable. They must meet strict criteria, including having a harm prevention strategy and providing information on their business compliance history. Once licensed, they will be able to advertise with restrictions, be required to pay tax, and contribute towards the problem gambling levy. Operators will clearly need to show that their gambling platforms are licensed so that the public can easily see which services are legitimate and regulated in New Zealand. This will require a registration icon or audio mark to be displayed on any advertising and gambling platforms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Department of Internal Affairs will regulate the sector, with costs recovered from licensed operators. To ensure the regime is effective, the bill makes clear that operators cannot avoid New Zealand law by being located offshore. The bill gives the regulator strong enforcement tools, including take-down notices, warnings, enforceable undertakings, and penalties of up to $5 million for serious or persistent breaches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis bill also ensures that New Zealand communities benefit through changes to the online gambling duty. Funding will be returned to communities through the Lottery Grants Board. This reflects the clear message from submissions on the bill. If we are regulating online gambling, benefits should flow back to local sports clubs, community groups, and grassroots organisations. I listened and we are delivering on what matters most to communities across this country. Importantly, this funding will come from an activity that is already occurring rather than from increasing gambling participation. It is not the Government\u2019s intention with this bill to increase gambling but to make sure it is safer for those who choose to gamble. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Government will review the regime once it\u2019s been in place. This will consider how well harm minimisation, consumer protection, and community funding objectives are being met. A separate two-year review will look at impacts on other forms of gambling, community markers, and community returns. This review allows the adjustment of any settings that are not working for operators and consumers, and allows this licensing regime to respond and adapt to emerging international trends. A separate two-year review will look at impacts on other forms of gambling and community returns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe bill enables the Government to set detailed regulatory requirements for how licensed operators may operate here in New Zealand, including harm prevention and minimisation, advertising and marketing restrictions, consumer protections, record-keeping, and cost recovery fees. This approach is consistent with the Gambling Act 2003 and ensures that the regulatory framework can remain responsive to market and technology while giving operators clear and enforceable requirements to plan and operate in the New Zealand market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn relation to advertising, the intent is to support a safe and well-regulated market; not to encourage increased gambling participation. Carefully controlled advertising allows consumers to identify licensed operators and make informed choices while helping to channel demand away from unlicensed operators. The regulations I\u2019ve proposed will mean operators must not target advertisements at those under the age of 25, unless the operator can demonstrate that the advertisement can be precisely targeted at consumers over the age of 18, and the content of advertisements and promotions must not reasonably appeal to those under the age of 18.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESetting these requirements, including fees, through regulations rather than here in the primary legislation provides flexibility to adjust settings as the market develops and as better information on market size and regulatory costs become available. This approach supports proportional, cost-reflective fees over time and gives operators greater certainty by clearly stating compliance requirements and updating them as the market evolves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis bill is a balanced and practical piece of legislation that will support the Government\u2019s coalition agreement. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edddd1bd4ca76c1be60d2e0c7f9fad76\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022258b65104d9046dfb49eb940c68bddda\u0022 data-id=\u00225252090780251bfc18c0dbf6a9eeaae1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022258b65104d9046dfb49eb940c68bddda\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225252090780251bfc18c0dbf6a9eeaae1\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere) (11:16)\u003C/span\u003E: Talofa lava, Mr Speaker. Thank you for the opportunity to provide a contribution. Before I do that, in case I do not get any chance today, I do want to just honour our Anzac men and women, and specifically veterans, as we remember them this weekend.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAs spokesperson for Labour, I tell members that we continue to oppose the Online Casino Gambling Bill. Yes, while we agree with the regulation in the bill in terms of regulating, we would state that the bill does not go far enough. We\u2019ve heard the statement from the Minister of Internal Affairs, and I do want to acknowledge the 4,837 individuals and groups who submitted; of that number, 3,966 submitters on the first initial draft of the bill raised the issue that there was no community return for our communities who may be involved in online casino gambling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe reason why, on this side of the House, the Labour team stresses the up to 15 new licences that this bill will allow to be brought into New Zealand is because there is limited information and regulations that do not go far enough in terms of harm minimisation tools and consumer protections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge the officials who worked with the Governance and Administration Committee, and I want to acknowledge the select committee members. We collaborated, we discussed the pros and cons, but we also had the opportunity to hear from submitters across Aotearoa in terms of harm minimisation and what is being brought into New Zealand. In our view, the licences are far too many for New Zealanders to practically understand the controls that, we say, do not go far enough. There was a lot of evidence put forward by submitters, which gave us select committee members the opportunity to consider why this legislation requires very proactive controls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt is important that New Zealanders understand things like gambling addiction. The difference between online casino gambling and land-based casinos is that land-based casinos, those specific businesses, understand when operations are opened and closed to people. With online casino gambling, those licences that are offshore will be able to do their business 24/7. The issue with that is that vulnerable communities across Aotearoa, at a time when affordability and the cost of living are really hitting vulnerable New Zealanders, some of those choices will not be able to be made attentively by vulnerable New Zealanders who have an addiction to online gambling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn our view, what the statistics tell us specifically is that things like controls on advertising need to go further in term of this amendment bill. We are pleased that the Government U-turned in October 2025; that the Cabinet made a ruling, or a provision, that there would be a community return returned back to the communities across Aotearoa. If you look at the evidence, the Minister stated in some of her explanations, that New Zealanders have to be very careful because addiction is high when it comes to gambling. Online gambling will propose 24/7 access, and the trouble with that activity is that it will be able to be accessed on any device. There are limited controls, and in our view, for Labour, we want to see those strengthened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe heard from submitters, such as the Problem Gambling Foundation, that there needed to be very clear words in the amendment bill that will help them help New Zealanders who are very vulnerable to this type of activity. The oral submissions that were made by groups\u2014iwi M\u0101ori, Pasifika, ethnic, and Chinese\u2014raised that, with some of the individuals who will be utilising this online casino gambling to do their activity, the problem is it is such a hidden activity. It might not be popular in terms of some parts of our community, but it is important to raise the health issues and the mental ability of some of the consumers who will be using some of those sites.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe are also concerned about the lack of protections that have been provided under this legislation. Labour continues to believe that, for some of the proceeds that will come from these companies, there has to be a mechanism. When the Gambling Act was set up in 2003, there was the authorisation that some gambling could occur, which was mainly written for land-based gambling operations. The online casino gambling legislation, we would argue, still doesn\u2019t provide the assurance that Kiwis will be protected by this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe offshore gambling duty that is proposed in this bill rests at between 12\u00A0percent to 16\u00A0percent\u2014the gross gambling revenue\u2014and in our submission, it proposes 4\u00A0percent. We would argue that it needs to be raised either to 8\u00A0percent or over, because that will ring-fence the proceeds for our communities to be returned to the community, which sits between a $10 million to $20 million figure. Labour continues to argue that the controls that are proposed in this bill continue to not go far enough, and we would like to see those strengthened in any future iterations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOne of the things, when we went through committee stage, was to ask the Minister to consider tools such as the self-exclusion register. When you look at the bill and the provisions, what happens is that there\u2019s a number of different dates. Once the bill goes through Royal assent, it will be introduced in terms of what that proposes, and then there are other tools that strengthen the bill, but the dates of the proposal, of the commencement date, is a much later date. The self-exclusion register was one of the tools that we wanted, on this side of the House, to be input from the start of the actual legislation, because there are consumers, or there are New Zealanders, who, once the doors are open in terms of those licences, will come into New Zealand, do their advertising\u2014actually, some of them are already in New Zealand. We have social media influencers, which the Department of Internal Affairs has been dealing with, and they\u2019re also doing non-authorised activity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe do, again, acknowledge that community return. We heard from communities, groups, and individuals up and down Aotearoa. The fact is that they require those community returns because a lot of them are doing class 4 activity through Lotto and through their organisations. I know we\u2019ve heard from the Minister that the reliance on that revenue is something she would like to see deterred. However, there is no system to replace the community returns to our community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe last point I wanted to raise in my time left was the distribution system. We heard from a number of submitters, and we support that the community grant system\u2014the current system\u2014will go through the lottery grants system, which is a central system with a number of controls, and also the delays. Labour supports that a local system would be helpful. We heard from Mr Martin Snedden, in terms of the thoughts that he put forward in his submission, and we would strongly support that. So, just as I end off, Labour continues to oppose this amendment bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dca7b20260b94cda81a3187e58a1d7c9\u0022 data-id=\u00224fd61faec39fcd01855819106be7ddf0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dca7b20260b94cda81a3187e58a1d7c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224fd61faec39fcd01855819106be7ddf0\u0022\u003EMIKE DAVIDSON (Green) (11:26)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Green Party to oppose this bill. The Green Party do support good and sensible regulation that is focused on harm reduction and risk minimisation. However, this bill is not that. One of the purposes of this bill is to prevent and minimise harm from online casino gambling; however, it just doesn\u2019t do that. What it does do is gather revenue. This bill is a money-grab that will create misery. Once again, it\u2019s just another example of this Government valuing profits over people, and to ensure they make as much money as they can, they will auction off the licences to overseas entities that, like this Government, do not care who or what it hurts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe know from the feedback from other agencies on this regime that there were some serious concerns about the harm that would be caused by this bill. The Ministry of Health stated: \u201CHowever, it seems from the paper that very little mention of harm prevention or minimisation is proposed for the bill beyond the purpose, with almost all the detail delegated to regulations. While we understand the benefit of regulations in a fast-evolving environment, we think that some more parameters around harm prevention and minimisations need to be in the bill to anchor to the purpose.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe Whatu Ora said: \u201CWe welcome the intention to regulate online gambling but are concerned that the proposed regulations will increase gambling and lead to an increase in gambling harm. First, we\u2019re concerned that the Cabinet paper does not reflect the potential for harm that online gambling presents. The regulatory impact statement provides evidence and discussion on this, but it is not well-reflected in the paper. We encourage you to make the potential for harm more visible so that legislative proposals can be considered in this context. Specifically, we note that online gambling is particularly harmful as it\u2019s continuous, easily accessible, and easy to hide.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe regulatory impact statement notes that the number of presentations to gambling harm services, with offshore online gambling listed as a main mode of harm, has increased by 71\u00A0percent since 2019\u2014a 1,500\u00A0percent rise in the number of adults gambling with offshore providers between 2010 and 2020, and has grown from around 7,000 adults to 105,000 adults. It is known that online gambling poses higher risks of addiction by being available 24/7. It allows gamblers to hide their gambling by moving it on to their personal device and into their homes. It can lack effective safeguards around age verification of gamblers, and we know that if you look at the e-scooters, they\u2019re also meant to be over 18. The amount of younger people under 18 that are actually riding those scooters is because the operator is not there and present when they\u2019re being ridden.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis poses problems with regulations due to the online and remote nature of the gambling environment. Problem gambling among those who gamble on the internet is 10 times higher than that of the general population. It was extremely clear that this bill would increase harm amongst vulnerable people, but it got pushed through without actually fixing that big issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFrom the notes from the regulatory impact statement on the costs: gambling harm treatment providers may experience an increase in direct costs due to increased resourcing requirements. This is showing that there will be increased harm. We assume that these costs will be offset by the collection of the problem gambling levy by licensed operators. You cannot offset harm by a levy. The wider public will experience some indirect costs, namely the cost of gambling harm, which we assume will be partially offset by the problem gambling levy. Once again, you cannot offset the social harm, the costs, the impacts on wh\u0101nau, financial standing, wellbeing, and mental health, through a levy on offshore operators. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThrough the process in the Governance and Administration Committee\u2014which I wasn\u2019t in on; I joined a little bit later\u2014there were, obviously, 4,837 groups and individuals who submitted. Out of that, 3,966 raised issues on the community returns. On the back of that, the gambling duty was increased from 12 to 16 percent, with 25 percent of that revenue ring-fenced for community. I think we all have to accept that that is a double-edged sword, because there are so many great, not-for-profit community groups that do rely on the proceeds of gambling services to survive. However, we must accept that the money coming to them is coming at a cost to the wellbeing of our community who are the ones that are suffering from gambling harm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EDuring the committee of the whole House, the Minister of Internal Affairs introduced an amendment that would, effectively, remove the ring-fencing of the 25 percent. She did say that there were reasons to do that to make it a more simple process. She said that the amount returned to the community can, therefore, be increased through amendment by Cabinet rather than amended in legislation. I think what she forgot to mention at that time was that it could also be decreased. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy colleague Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan did ask: is the funding from the gambling duty still ring-fenced for the purpose of allocation and distribution for community purposes, and would the removal of the 25 percent mean that the new amount would be less or significantly less than 25 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENaturally, the Minister avoided answering that question properly. She did thank him and said that the funding collected from the duty for the purpose of community returns will be transferred through the Budget process and Cabinet will decide the amount; therefore, it is not required to be ring-fenced. Cabinet had decided the percentage, which is 16 percent, out of the Gaming Duties Act, but this is better flexibility. What we know, through this, is that the Cabinet can actually reduce the amount that was meant to be ring-fenced for community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, I brought in a simple amendment\u2014a common-sense amendment\u2014that would ensure that it could not go below what the committee wanted, which 25 percent of the actual gambling duties, but it was voted down. So you\u2019ve put at risk something that, actually, the community, in their thousands, asked for. We know from this that there are many demographics that are hugely affected by gambling: M\u0101ori, Pacific people, young people, and people with disabilities are all more likely to be impacted by gambling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI just want to quickly touch on just a couple of things that they said in my short time left. I\u2019ll pick up\u2014which one shall we do? Brain Injury New Zealand, who obviously oppose this terrible bill, said, \u201CWe do not believe the bill\u2019s harm minimisation provisions go far enough. Without stronger safeguards, online gambling may cause serious harm to vulnerable groups, particularly those with brain injury.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a9e0ddcd6341e8a20426318dc0e6c3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224aec566fbb915bd1f4b128d06268f7ff\u0022\u003EHon Melissa Lee\u003C/span\u003E: It already is doing harm. Jeez!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dca7b20260b94cda81a3187e58a1d7c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b10193937e83637fbccf0ceb7b2cc673\u0022\u003EMIKE DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: You may heckle on the sides, but it is clear by what you are saying that you don\u2019t care about the vulnerable people in our community that will suffer by this bill when it gets passed into legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Salvation Army: they recognise the need for effective regulation, like we do on this side. They were deeply concerned that the bill does not prioritise harm prevention and minimisation, and that the proposed approach to the regulation is inadequate. Once again, this bill will cause harm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe know that, actually, the consultation and the engagement with iwi was pathetic\u2014; it did not exist. The Pou Tangata chair, Rahui Papa, said, \u201CLet\u2019s be clear, this reform will expose more young people to risk. It is gambling harm by stealth.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Asian Family Services said, \u201CThe substance of the Bill does not reflect the statutory objective of harm minimisation.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cf90c68551cb56c56d8a7974a53083a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has come to an end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ab32b09663ea48b199aa59e4d88f77e4\u0022 data-id=\u00221fdd4209cdbe66eb1a801271af22174c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ab32b09663ea48b199aa59e4d88f77e4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221fdd4209cdbe66eb1a801271af22174c\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki) (11:36)\u003C/span\u003E: Let\u2019s be very clear. There are two options when we get to vote very soon: one, we do nothing\u2014we let the current online gambling continue unregulated with no assistance for harm prevention, no money coming back to the community, nothing; or we vote for this legislation. It\u2019s not just GST, it\u2019s not just gambling harm; it is money going to community organisations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, I agree: I didn\u2019t like where the ACT Party started with the bill. That is why we have fought hard, and National has delivered community returns. I held public meetings in my electorate, I met with everyone and every group that would, and we have fought hard for and delivered community returns. By voting against it, they are voting for no money at all to go to our community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWho was it that asked for a national self-exclusion register? It was the National Party. Who is it that\u2019s delivering money for our community? The National Party. Greens and Labour talk a big game. They\u2019re delivering nothing for our community. They\u2019re opposing the only good things. National Party are proud to support this. I commend the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248ce26e54d83406399b875df20400dec\u0022 data-id=\u00221c5799adb7f605126296507c2ba2a340\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248ce26e54d83406399b875df20400dec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c5799adb7f605126296507c2ba2a340\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First) (11:37)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Look, this bill recognises that we live in what is an increasingly digital world. It is a world that, in many areas, is a world without borders. Of course, we know that most of us transact business via email rather than by letters. Most of our business is done via online banking rather than going down to the bank branch, and in the retail area, increasingly, bricks and mortar is challenged by online retail. That is true of gambling even more so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe thing I agree with Mike Davidson on is that he said that it is growing very fast. The Governance and Administration Committee heard that, roughly, New Zealanders are gambling something like $800 million a year, and that is growing very fast. I think even the number used was something like 1,500 percent in a very short period of time. It\u2019s not going to go away. The point that Tim Costley has just made is you can either regulate that or you can leave it alone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat we heard from Labour and the Greens today is that they\u2019ve focused a lot on harm, but we didn\u2019t hear a lot of that at the select committee. We had a bit of discussion, we made some changes, and the changes we made were very collaboratively done\u2014for example, making it easier to self-exclude;\u2014we did that. It wasn\u2019t just the National Party; it was a collective effort. We also said that we can allow regulation so that you can\u2019t use credit to gamble\u2014very sensible as well. But what the Opposition are not recognising is that that digital world is here and it is not going to go away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat we are seeing is more and more\u2014if you like, it\u2019s the wild west\u2014of these overseas-owned cowboys, effectively, coming in and encouraging New Zealanders to gamble online. This bill is the sheriff. This bill is the sheriff coming into town to better protect New Zealanders and to ensure greater benefit for New Zealand. What the Opposition\u2014as Tim Costley just said\u2014seems to be saying is that by not passing the bill, somehow all of this is going to go away, but it\u2019s not. It\u2019s just going to get more and more and more, and it\u2019s going to be unregulated. So the question is, do you want the wild west, or do you want the sheriff? I am on the side of the sheriff in saying we want to regulate this and do a better job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does is to establish a three-stage process\u2014it\u2019s quite a rigorous process\u2014to issue up to 15 licences. Now, we did hear concerns about whether 15 was too many. Some people said it should be unregulated and uncapped which would be even more, but we didn\u2019t really have a great deal of evidence to say what the right number would be, nor did we have a great deal of discussion in the select committee. We got an alternative view from the Labour Party at the end of it, but we didn\u2019t have a lot of discussion within the committee to say, \u201CActually, this is the number and this is why the number.\u201D So there are a bit of crocodile tears being shed here by the Opposition in that area as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELook, the idea here is that if you have a substantial number of licensed organisations, you give some choice as to who people are going to gamble with. I don\u2019t understand why they do it, but if they\u2019re going to gamble, it\u2019s safer to do that in a swimming pool that is regulated than to get into the river that is unregulated, with the alligators. That\u2019s your choice: you have a swimming pool that is regulated\u2014you can choose which pool you want to go into\u2014or you\u2019re in the river with the alligators. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt also allows some education. It also allows the operators to promote themselves so that people are actually going to say, \u201CI know these people, I know they\u2019re regulated, and I will go with them rather than with somebody who is the alligator in the river.\u201D I do note, though, that this House has, in terms of promotion and advertising, said that it\u2019s quite happy with advertising going to greater levels on some of the days which people might find somewhat confronting; I\u2019m thinking of Easter, Anzac, and Christmas. We\u2019ll just see how that goes, and it\u2019s good that we\u2019ve got a review in there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAs we\u2019ve heard, we had a lot of feedback on this. The sports community were really, really quick to get organised. They did a lot of work, they were very united, and they provided very strong and well-articulated feedback. Their issue was community benefit and what they saw as the threat\u2014and it\u2019s an existing threat\u2014that online gambling is there, it\u2019s growing, and it\u2019s an existing threat to class 4 revenue. I\u2019ve been on both sides of this as a person giving grants out, and also as part of organisations which have received grants. That money is essential to many of our sporting and community organisations, and so they were rightly concerned that online gambling and the growth of online gambling, if there was nothing to compensate for that, was going to be a real concern and potentially an existential threat to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve had, essentially, a long-term social contract\u2014and it\u2019s in the Gambling Act 2003\u2014that we know that gambling can be harmful. We know that, and nobody would disagree with that, but the contract, really, is that as a result of that, we\u2019re saying that gambling comes alongside community benefits so that the proceeds of gambling go to community benefit. The problem with the bill\u2014and I completely agree with what Tim Costley said here, is I don\u2019t think any of those in that select committee\u2014ACT is not represented on that select committee\u2014liked the bill as it was introduced, and that issue of no community benefit was a real problem. Our submitters saw this as breaching that social contract. As we\u2019ve already heard, of the 4,837 submissions that we received, about 3,966 of them\u2014so most of them\u2014raised that issue of community returns. As I said, there was real concern about the erosion, or potential erosion, of online gambling eroding terrestrial class 4 gambling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe heard that message, I think parties across the House heard that message, and obviously, the Minister for Internal Affairs and Cabinet heard that message, and I\u2019d say well done to her for listening and for making the change and for setting aside that 4 percent of gross revenue for community benefit. Actually, I agree: if that 4 percent was higher, I think that would be a good thing because the biggest beneficiary, not only of this but also all forms of gambling, is actually the Government. The Government could think\u2014doesn\u2019t matter whether it\u2019s a red-led Government or blue-led Government\u2014about whether, in fact, it gave more money from those proceeds to community and sporting organisations. That\u2019s a decision that executives can make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOne last thing I did want to talk about was that select committees often get tram lines within which they can look at amendments, and we make quite a number of, I think, very useful amendments. There are three that I want to pick up that were specifically ones that I promoted, and so they\u2019re very much New Zealand First - type ones. The first one of them was picking up the Minister\u2019s change. We knew that Cabinet was going to change it, but we said, \u201CLet\u2019s add to the purpose of the bill.\u201D, and so in the purpose of the bill, clause 3(e) now says that the purpose of the bill is to \u201Censure that money from online casino gambling benefits the community.\u201D That reflects the change that Cabinet said that it wanted to make. It\u2019s now in the purpose of the bill; previously, it wasn\u2019t there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAnother issue which was raised by some of the submitters, particularly some of the community trusts in New Zealand, was that they wanted to be able to be a part of those 15 licences. In doing that, they\u2019re more likely to give more money back to the community. So not only the 4 percent but they are also\u2014I mean, they are required to distribute their surpluses back to community. That\u2019s a great thing. I said, \u201CLook, can we be part of that?\u201D, and so there are two other changes there which make that more likely. The first of them is in clause 14, which requires licence applicants to disclose their intended contributions to New Zealand. Then clause 19 requires the Secretary of Internal Affairs to consider the scope of the licence applicant\u2019s presence in New Zealand\u2014whether they\u2019ve got staff, a base, or whatever it might be here\u2014and their planned contributions to the community. Those things make it more likely that\u2014we like putting New Zealand first\u2014New Zealand-based organisations are more likely to be party to those licences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe also made, in that same vein, amendments to ban synthetic lotteries. Why did we do that? To safeguard the Lotto New Zealand revenue, again because that Lotto New Zealand revenue goes to New Zealand community organisations. All of those things are about making sure that more benefit goes not just to the Crown, but also to the community. Finally, as I\u2019ve already mentioned, the changes that we made as a select committee to tighten up on harm minimisation, which I think were good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere is provision, as you heard from the Minister, to review the bill. I think those things are really, really important because we want to see what the impact has been of increasing online gambling\u2014if it does increase, to what degree?\u2014on class 4 gambling. How well does the new system work? How well does New Zealand Lotteries manage it in terms of distribution? How do the advertising provisions work, and how do the harm minimisation provisions work\u2014all of those things are important to review. That\u2019s a good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think that, notwithstanding the protestations you\u2019ve heard from the Opposition, this bill is a much, much better bill than it started. It regulates a potentially harmful activity, it improves safety, and it provides, now, for community benefit. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221853a52ed404ac9d81c7c68d3cb555cd\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a five-minute split call\u2014Oriini Kaipara.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b11bafcf5b5427480393ffeef4fe6e8\u0022 data-id=\u0022b945254f339ee39144e3f2766486fe02\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b11bafcf5b5427480393ffeef4fe6e8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b945254f339ee39144e3f2766486fe02\u0022\u003EORIINI KAIPARA (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014T\u0101maki Makaurau) (11:46)\u003C/span\u003E: \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EE te P\u012Bka, t\u0113n\u0101 koe.\u003C/span\u003E Today, we reach the third and final reading of the Online Casino Gambling Bill, a law that will shape the digital gambling landscape of Aotearoa for generations to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOn behalf of Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, and as the member for T\u0101maki Makaurau, I rise grounded in the voices of wh\u0101nau, M\u0101ori health providers, and community organisations who submitted in unprecedented numbers. There are 61,000 people across Aotearoa currently experiencing harmful gambling\u2014the same as the population of Rotorua.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFor Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, our compass is very clear: \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003Emana motuhake\u003C/span\u003E, the right of our people to live with dignity and self-determination; \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003Emana \u014Drite\u003C/span\u003E, equity and fairness in all systems; and \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003Emana mokopuna\u003C/span\u003E, the protection of our children and future generations. When we test this bill against those values, it fails every single measure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMana motuhake\u2014protecting the wellbeing and autonomy of our people. Look, M\u0101ori are 3.5 times more likely to experience problem gambling harm. That\u2019s not an accident. It\u2019s the result of decades of targeted gambling access in our poorest suburbs and communities already carrying the weight of colonisation, poverty, and housing insecurity. H\u0101pai Te Hauora, the national M\u0101ori Public Health organisation, told us that online casino gambling is one of the most harmful forms of gambling: fast-paced, available 24/7, and designed to keep people playing until they lose everything. They warned that this bill does not uphold Te Tiriti o Waitangi, it does not embed M\u0101ori governance, and it does not protect M\u0101ori data or M\u0101ori decision making. Turuki Health and M\u0101ori providers across T\u0101maki Makaurau echoed those same concerns. Gambling harm is intergenerational. It compounds stress, poverty, and wh\u0101nau breakdown. Without strong protections, this bill will deepen inequalities and inequities for M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMana \u014Drite\u2014fairness, equity, and community returns. Of the 4,837 submissions, 3,966 raised concerns about the loss of community returns. Class 4 gambling, for all its flaws, at least requires 40 percent of net proceeds to be returned to communities, but this bill allows offshore operators to extract profits with no obligation to reinvest in Aotearoa. The Governance and Administration Committee has recommended increasing the gambling duty from 12 percent to 16 percent\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248ce26e54d83406399b875df20400dec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b24cfea09c6000144f3e80197b71c902\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: Did you read the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b11bafcf5b5427480393ffeef4fe6e8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1a1d5e6eb6f2273f908c9171058b371\u0022\u003EORIINI KAIPARA\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014yes, I did\u2014and returning 25 percent of that duty to communities through the Lottery Grants Board. That is a good step but it is not equity. It is not mana \u014Drite, because the truth is offshore companies will profit. M\u0101ori communities, and, in fact, all communities across Aotearoa, will pay a heavy price.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMana mokopuna\u2014protecting our children and future generations. The number of rangatahi aged between 13\u201413\u2014and 18 who have engaged in online gambling has risen to 52 percent. That is half of all our young people. This bill sets the online casino age at 18\u201418\u2014years old, even though you must be 20 to enter a physical casino. That inconsistency exposes rangatahi to one of the most addictive forms of gambling at a younger age on a device they carry in their pocket. Problem gambling is not an individual failure; it is a system failure. When that system harms our mokopuna, we have a duty to intervene.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat is next? As this bill turns into law, Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori will continue to hold future Governments to task to ensure they strengthen this legislation. M\u0101ori submitters have been very clear about what is needed: a complete ban on gambling advertising, including influencers and images of wealth; a centralised self-exclusion register that\u2019s operational before licences are granted, not in 2027; a higher age limit; mandatory community returns; M\u0101ori co-governance; and stronger harm minimisation tools. These are not just policy settings; they are expressions of our duty to protect our people. \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EE te Whare\u003C/span\u003E, M\u0101ori organisations, health providers, and community groups have been unequivocal. They have told us that gambling harm is already devastating wh\u0101nau, and this bill, when enacted, will make that harm worse. They have told us that our mokopuna, our future, deserve better. We oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022 data-id=\u00225b83a21eb6605ffca034ce77db585ecd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b83a21eb6605ffca034ce77db585ecd\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green) (11:51)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Prior to coming to Parliament, I worked at the front lines with people on the benefit and people experiencing poverty. We served them every day as they came through our doors, often asking for hardship assistance to survive. During that time, I met many families whose lives had been wrecked by problem gambling. Other speakers have noted the issues of intergenerational impacts of problem gambling, and I saw those first hand. Families who had not received help had entered into such high levels of debt that they became homeless, or they were about to become homeless, and they were struggling to receive assistance from the agencies that were required to support them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EDuring that time, I also experienced what other speakers noted, which was having, as a community organisation, to rely on funds from lotteries, knowing that your ability to serve the community had to come from funds that were directly gathered from harm that was being created as a result of gambling. That was a really, really difficult thing to have to juggle, coming from the community sector. Online gambling does need regulations, and we simply cannot accept the status quo. In scrutinising this bill, we are making a call to vote against it on the merit of the bill itself, not on whether online gambling should be regulated or otherwise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think others have spoken about some of the key issues that we have, and I particularly wanted to note how disappointing it is to see that there are no provisions, basically, prohibiting advertising. I think this is a huge misstep by the Government, particularly because, ultimately, we know that the companies that make profits out of creating misery and harm in our communities do target people that they know are more likely to be impacted by the harm that gambling, including online casino gambling, causes in our communities. Prohibiting advertisement would be one way to curtail the impact that these companies have on our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI do want to note the attempts made by my colleague Mike Davidson to protect the funds that go to the communities. I echo his concerns around the fact that with the way that the bill is now written, there are no guarantees that at least 25\u00A0percent of that revenue is directed back into the community. That leaves it open for a future Government to basically decrease that and simply take more of that for just revenue gathering for the Government. I think this speaks of a conundrum that successive Governments have fallen into, of having no reliable and, in my view, ethical ways of resourcing our community sectors, including our community sports sectors who desperately need adequate resourcing. A lot of the grants that exist are grants that are, basically, created out of misery that is caused in our communities. You cannot, as Mike Davidson outlined, offset that harm through these means. You should not be pitting community organisations\u2019 ability to survive against harm that is caused in the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESomething that I raised in the committee stage and committee of the whole House stage, and that I do think deserves further work for the Government to explore, is around the lack of explicit mention of loot boxes in this bill\u2014I think this is something the Government should do further work on\u2014loot boxes, for people who participate in video gaming, particularly computer or mobile gaming. We know that loot boxes are basically a form of online gambling, and they wreck lives. They also target people below the age of 18 particularly. The harm that the loot-box system in video games causes to minors and to families cannot be understated. It\u2019s an area that has not been adequately regulated, and we know from constituency feedback that it causes real financial harm to families. I tried to put in an amendment to add a definition of it so that it would be included in what we considered online casino gambling, but the Minister of Internal Affairs did not support it. If the Minister thinks that this wasn\u2019t the place to regulate loot boxes, I highly encourage her to look at further work that should be done in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think that, while we all agree in this House that online gambling causes real harm and destroys lives, what we haven\u2019t had cross-party agreement on has been on how to tackle corporates that make profit out of misery. This is why the Green Party isn\u2019t supporting this bill and calls on the Government to strengthen this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb40eb85aab340879622563050ab25fa\u0022 data-id=\u00220218977603db39988d8015b5cd8aa9c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb40eb85aab340879622563050ab25fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220218977603db39988d8015b5cd8aa9c6\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty) (11:56)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I think context in this debate is really important. At present, there is online gambling taking place in New Zealand, and this legislation creates regulation to say that enough is enough, we need to bring it into line, and we need to have laws in place. We need to make sure we follow a proper process, and then, also, we can provide support to those who are impacted by gambling harm across New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThis is what this bill does. It says we can know who those people are, we can provide them with the support they need, but also\u2014importantly, as a local sports player in many local teams in my community\u2014it has a community-return component too, which is a really positive step for sporting and community organisations that receive lotteries grants. Now they will receive them also from online casino gambling. It\u2019s a really positive step forward. It brings into line  where New Zealand needs to go, and so I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022 data-id=\u002223df40c6979c0246c2994691a300fe9c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223df40c6979c0246c2994691a300fe9c\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri) (11:57)\u003C/span\u003E: The characterisation from the Government about what\u2019s going on is really fascinating. They\u2019re talking about regulating an industry that does cause misery; what they haven\u2019t said is that they are regulating it and expanding it at the same time. Listen to the words very closely from the lead *Minister of Internal Affairs, who talked about creating a competitive market. Now, that\u2019s a really insightful term there\u2014\u201Ca competitive market\u201D\u2014because, yes, there currently is online gambling, but it\u2019s around the margins, and there certainly aren\u2019t incentives at the moment for those operators to be competitive against each other in the way that the ACT Party and this particular Minister would like them to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think the National Party has fallen asleep at the wheel on this one. The Minister for Mental Health has been missing in action, and the crazy thing about this is that the regime to regulate the online gambling space has occurred, the decision has been made\u2014the Cabinet papers show that\u2014and then everyone\u2019s scratching their heads and going, \u201CWhat are we going to do to minimise harm?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere was no discussion at the beginning about whether we even wanted this competitive market in our environment, and whether the better opportunity would have been to say, \u201CThere is online gambling; what are we going to do to minimise it?\u201D, rather than, \u201CWhat are we going to do to expand it?\u201D This is what has happened in reality, and that\u2019s what happens when you have a coalition Government that is the tail wagging the dog, with the main party asleep at the wheel. The Minister for Mental Health\u2014who likes to say that he\u2019s the first Minister of Mental Health, and he\u2019s all about creating wellbeing for New Zealanders\u2014is allowing our young people to be at the behest of predatory international gambling organisations who now have a full licence, 15 of them potentially, to operate in New Zealand. That is what is going on with this bill, and that is why we oppose it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI too would like to thank the 4,837 different people and organisations who submitted to the Governance and Administration Committee. I didn\u2019t get to sit there and listen, but I certainly did read many of the submissions, and I was here for the committee of the whole House stage. That was a fascinating process. On the one hand, we have the reality that this bill is going to allow young people, with their devices being carried around with them 24/7, to be exposed to a new competitive advertising marketing regime on online gambling in their homes and away from harm\u2019s way, and then we have a Minister who did not seem to understand the difference between consumer protection and harm minimisation. I asked her very carefully in the committee of the whole House stage about whether she thought the harm minimisation element of this bill was strong enough. She gave answers that related to consumer protection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, consumer protection is things like making sure you\u2019re not ripped off and being able to put yourself on to a register if you think you might be in harm\u2019s way, but harm minimisation includes being able to protect young people or those who are already at harm from further harm. It means a positive duty of care on organisations that get licences to make sure they are not causing harm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThose provisions are not in there, and, in fact, we\u2019ve heard already that advertising and marketing\u2014a critical part of this regime\u2014have been relegated to secondary legislation. We don\u2019t even know what that will look like. That means it will be subject to regulatory capture because there is every incentive for those big international organisations to want to make sure that the regime is as narrow as possible. It is very difficult to tighten regulatory regimes on advertising in this kind of space once they have been set. How can we have a transparent conversation when we do not even know what those provisions look like?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt feels to me, really, like this is an ACT agenda, and I\u2019m so sad that the National Party didn\u2019t step up around the mental health side of this. We had a decision that was taken as a fait accompli. We had Cabinet papers that showed officials trying to grapple with harm minimisation and the levy for harm minimisation in the health space, acknowledging explicitly in those papers that a decision had already been taken to create this regime. That is silly. It\u2019s flawed. It\u2019s the right hand and the left hand not really being coordinated, and it shows that this has been led by an agenda outside of health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, when we think about gambling, what is gambling designed to do? It is designed to get people involved in a way that they will spend more money. Why is it that in this House we can have very specific debates around details and minutiae about particular alcohol laws over Easter, and yet we do not have a conscience vote and we do not have a health approach on something that is going to open a tsunami of problem gambling and exposure to problem gambling for our young people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe have a mental health crisis. Our youth have been recognised across the board, including by the mental health commission and including by the mental health Minister, as experiencing a crisis, and as being the front line of what is happening, particularly in the online space. We are having a debate about whether we should be changing the age rules for social media. On the other side of this, we are saying let\u2019s create\u2014not only create; expand\u2014a competitive market for online gambling that our young people will be exposed to 24 hours a day. How on earth does that make sense? It is unintelligent and it is the cart before the horse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhy were the public not able to have a discussion first about whether we even want this sector here, and if the reality is that we have it here, what are we going to do to make sure we minimise the harm? That should be the first principle. It should not be about a tax grab. It is not our young people\u2019s fault that this Government could not make their fiscals work and looked around desperately to try and find where they could get some revenue from and thought, \u201COh yeah, gambling\u2014that\u2019s a good one. Never mind the harm. Let\u2019s get this through quickly. Let\u2019s allow our mental health Minister to go silent. Let\u2019s put it in internal affairs and take the wrong approach and put not only this generation but future generations at risk.\u201D Unacceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI know this. I\u2019ve seen the documents. I have seen the sequencing that things happened in, and I have heard, with my own unbelieving ears, the Minister\u2019s response to my questions on harm minimisation, which showed she did not understand what that meant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s think about what some of the provisions do. The advertising is being put into secondary regulation. There is risk of regulatory capture there. There is no duty of care anywhere in the bill to try and find some way of capturing the harm that could be happening to young people who are skipping across multiple sites. It is all predicated on the assumption that somebody will go on to a site and, if alarm bells ring because they\u2019ve been on there for a long time, there will be some kind of red flag. But gamblers don\u2019t do that. They go across sites. The Minister was given that evidence in this House and asked the questions. She refused to do anything about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Minister was given the evidence about loot boxes. She was given the evidence about loyalty awards, around spins, and around the very close link with gamification. These are all massive loopholes in this law, because the definition section is not at pace with the reality that is occurring for our young people. Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March, myself, and others tried to alert her and say, \u201CMinister, if you are really intent on ramming this through the House, at least put some real protections in for our young people.\u201D But, no, none of that has been addressed, so the harm will continue for those people, and that\u2019s unacceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI recently met with Dr Kelly Feng\u2014who many people in this House know\u2014from Asian Family Services. They are, in some ways, the last cab off the rank to get mental health funding, and it is not because they don\u2019t do an outstanding job\u2014they do. The problem is that they do not know what they do not know about their community. They cannot measure what is not coming through the medicalised door when it comes to gambling harm. Anecdotally, there is a huge amount of evidence and a picture of young Asian New Zealanders, in particular, with gambling problems, but because they do not go through doctors\u2019 doors or Access and Choice programmes, they are not counted. What is going to happen to that community, and how are people like Dr Kelly Feng\u2014who is so committed to serving them\u2014going to be able to provide the tools to be able to clean up the mess and the harm that this Government is proliferating through this unconscionable, immoral, and ill-thought-through bill that they are doing just for a tax grab?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI implore the National Party to find your chops and think about the mental health aspects. Get your Minister to do some advocacy\u2014because he has been completely missing in action\u2014and join us in voting against this bill instead of throwing our young people under the bus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a9e0ddcd6341e8a20426318dc0e6c3\u0022 data-id=\u00221780c2baeb9883fcfb971dfd87bca918\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a9e0ddcd6341e8a20426318dc0e6c3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221780c2baeb9883fcfb971dfd87bca918\u0022\u003EHon MELISSA LEE (National) (12:07)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. Listening to that speech actually shows that that member was not present during the select committee process. People listening to this debate will be under the impression, mistakenly, that online gambling doesn\u2019t currently exist and that the harm isn\u2019t actually happening. The statistics that were quoted by some members opposite, who talked about the harm that is already here and actually affecting our communities, are correct. The previous Government didn\u2019t do anything for six years about this. It has been around for a while. It didn\u2019t just all of a sudden appear, and we\u2019re not introducing the harm. It already exists in our communities\u2014it exists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThis bill actually minimises that. What we\u2019re trying to do is regulate, because otherwise it is out there already. We\u2019re not collecting taxes from those businesses, and we don\u2019t even know if they\u2019re doing any harm minimisation work\u2014they\u2019re actually happening. This bill regulates, tries to provide harm minimisation work, and actually delivers to the communities, who can benefit from the profits. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221699a038a375c936b76a95f4e57edb64\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d52c571cdb246f6abf50a39de1a66f7\u0022 data-id=\u00228f8a62c91c2796d0e7b9d34e665b1996\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d52c571cdb246f6abf50a39de1a66f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f8a62c91c2796d0e7b9d34e665b1996\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour) (12:08)\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora, Mr Speaker. As I rise and have been listening throughout this debate, as many people have said\u2014and the previous speaker\u2014we\u2019re talking about harm here. We\u2019re talking about individuals. We\u2019re talking about families. We\u2019re talking about communities. I don\u2019t know of the experiences that members in this Chamber have had when it comes to gambling hurt and harm, but I know, in my own family, I have a family member who, unbeknownst to many of us, ended up, within their own home, in an online gambling addiction, which caused great harm\u2014in fact, a relationship breakdown\u2014because of the addiction and because of the allure and because of being in the shadows that online gambling creates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI also have one of my foster boys who got into the pokies a long time ago, and as much as that is harmful\u2014and it is\u2014it was visible and it could be visually regulated, in terms of the fact that he was actually banned. He was on the register, and so he would go to the pokies and his photo was there and he wasn\u2019t able to enter them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESadly, again, because of challenges, he found the world of online casino gambling, and that addiction has continued. We\u2019ve done work, and hopefully there\u2019s a way through it, but it is a challenge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EYes, emotions are high; yes, people are passionate; and, yes, we must do something about this. But, again, it\u2019s not just words in this Chamber. It\u2019s not just words on the bill, which will become an Act; it\u2019s actually about the lives of young people, the lives of old people, and the lives of all cultures where it happens. Let us pause and remember that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAs the Labour Party, yes, we are going to oppose this, and I want to thank our lead on this, my colleague Lemauga Sosene, who has led us well in terms of not only the select committee process, but talking to us as a caucus through why we should be standing up and saying no. Yes, all the way through, it\u2019s been \u201CWe must be doing something, we must be doing something\u2014we must find a way through.\u201D, but, in many ways, there have been moments, as this bill has traversed the House, where it has seemed rushed at times. There were changes that were made at the committee of the whole House stage that were made quite quickly. I\u2019m not sure, because of those changes, if we should potentially slow things down and maybe take it back to select committee to unpack it a bit more because, yes, we must change it. But what is the point of changing it if we don\u2019t get it right\u2014if we come back into this House in a year or two and have to play around with it yet again because we haven\u2019t got the settings right, and it actually isn\u2019t helping people and it isn\u2019t helping the harm? We support regulation, we had begun regulation on this, and we must keep leaning in and figuring it out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, we\u2019ve had conversations as well\u2014and I heard a previous Government member speak about the fact of helping communities and putting money back into communities, but the question is: at what cost do we do that? Community returns\u2014yeah, they maybe potentially can come from the dividends from online gambling, but is that worth it when harm is done within communities and within families? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI look at the submission from the Salvation Army. They ran the Oasis programme for problem gamblers from, I think, the mid-1990s until about five or 10 years ago, when the funding dried up for them and they weren\u2019t able to provide that service. The service was so necessary because this is one of those addictions, one of those issues, like many, that crosses. Whether you\u2019re well-to-do, whether you\u2019re rich, whether you\u2019re poor, or whether you\u2019re working class, it crosses through everything. The question for me is: is sustainable wellbeing, in terms of getting a bit more cash into the community worth it when we cannot be building and dealing with problem gambling issues?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe need to find good policy; we need to find a way through. This is not it, and we cannot in good faith support this bill. We oppose this bill. We suggest, potentially, why not take it back to select committee? Why not pull it apart again so we can get it right and ensure that people, that communities, and that families who are struggling with online gambling will get the help and support they need?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022297bc572c27f45308dffb067ca3e7915\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3a2c1b6e4bacdd7f5ae8976b5176e99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022297bc572c27f45308dffb067ca3e7915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3a2c1b6e4bacdd7f5ae8976b5176e99\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam) (12:13)\u003C/span\u003E: It is a great honour to rise in support of the Online Casino Gambling Bill in this third reading. Online gambling is in New Zealand, it is widely accessible on many devices, and currently, it is unregulated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIt is surprising that the other side don\u2019t actually want to support this bill. They talk about the harm; they did nothing, for six years, about dealing with the harm of online gambling. This is making sure that it\u2019s a level playing field. Some of that money is going to go towards our community\u2014[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E] It\u2019s a pity they weren\u2019t so loud and getting up and talking during the last Parliament to actually do something. This is actually making sure that money can go towards our community organisations and we can help minimise the harm. Therefore, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc5df856d19845fdaba4418087cd3bba\u0022 data-id=\u00228657b316834948ea9fd3e47befac5f2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc5df856d19845fdaba4418087cd3bba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228657b316834948ea9fd3e47befac5f2e\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Labour) (12:14)\u003C/span\u003E: It doesn\u2019t matter what side of this debate we\u2019re on, we all know, in this House, that the harm from gambling is hideous. We\u2019ve heard today from people who have had firsthand experience and we\u2019ve heard from people who maybe have had second-hand experience, but most of us can make a connection to someone or people who have had harm from gambling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not really recognised alongside the other addictions that we hear about. My colleague Ingrid Leary kind of talked about that, and the way that we even vote upon that in this House. If we have a vote in this House on a bill that\u2019s around alcohol, that usually goes as a conscience vote, but here we\u2019re talking about just as horrific an addiction, in the form of gambling, and we\u2019re not taking that same approach. It\u2019s the same for our support people who help the people who suffer from addictions in society and in the community. They don\u2019t get the same support that other people do\u2014that other groups do. They don\u2019t have the same sort of revenue that comes in to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn fact, my colleague talked about Oasis and the good work that Salvation Army did through their Oasis programme. I think it was for 31 years that they were delivering support for gambling harm. In fact, in 2024, their revenue dried up\u2014so it wasn\u2019t 10 years ago; it was only two years ago that their revenue dried up. We lost a great organisation that supported people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve seen families drawn and pulled apart because of gambling; I\u2019ve seen mums who are living in poverty and trying desperately to provide for their family who have got hooked into the gambling mode. I\u2019ve seen them ripped apart from their families because of what gambling has done to them. It is absolutely hideous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EDo you know what, I\u2019ve heard from the other side\u2014they\u2019re saying that Labour wants to do nothing here, and that is not the case. We want to see regulation, but not regulation that potentially makes it more permissive, and that\u2019s exactly what this bill does. It has the potential to make online gambling more permissive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, nobody is saying\u2014as I\u2019ve heard from the other side today\u2014that online gambling doesn\u2019t exist already. It is getting bigger and bigger all the time, but this bill has the potential for it to become even greater and more permissive. I want to spend my contribution here walking through how that is the case. I fear, from the debate that I have heard here today, that there is not a lot of understanding around what the potential hazards are in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFirstly, I want to talk about the fact that we have no understanding from this bill of what the harm minimisation will be. We\u2019re concerned that it leaves most of that harm minimisation to the Minister of Internal Affairs, and through regulations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, if we\u2019re talking about land-based gambling\u2014and I\u2019m going to talk about class 4, and that\u2019s the pokies with the land-based gambling\u2014there are responsibilities on the hosts of those machines. They are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but those responsibilities do exist. They are things like ensuring that they\u2019re checking in on the gambler after a certain amount of time; that is ensuring that we haven\u2019t got one person that\u2019s stuck at a machine for hours and hours on end; that is ensuring that there is the right support there, going and having a conversation, and ensuring that there is not an ATM right beside where the gambling is happening. Those host responsibilities are about exclusion as well. The host has to exclude after a certain amount of time. Those host responsibilities happen for a reason: to ensure that our people are kept as safe as they possible can be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, how can you possibly do host responsibilities with online gambling? That\u2019s a question that, when I was Minister of Internal Affairs, I asked myself over and over again because we didn\u2019t have the technology to do that back in 2021. But, guess what! We have the technology, and it\u2019s working in jurisdictions across the world now. That technology exists, through artificial intelligence, to have host responsibilities that would exclude gamblers right from the word go. The Minister knows about this, but the Minister has refused to put this into the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESo we open up advertising, and we don\u2019t have the technology that can exclude people that are gambling over and over, and are in repetitive gambling right at the start. But the advertising\u2019s there, luring them in all the time, and that has the potential to be more permissive than what we\u2019ve ever seen in the online space before. I say to the other side: be careful of the unintended consequences that you are putting in place today. That is why we are taking a stance to stand against this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAlso, I want to talk about the number of licences, and we\u2019ve heard that here. I do believe in having a licensing regime, but 15 licences for our population makes us as permissive as the UK, which is the most permissive gambling jurisdiction in the world. That\u2019s what we\u2019re doing today. We\u2019re making it more permissive than ever, and we don\u2019t have the moral obligation, with it going to auction. I don\u2019t disagree about how it\u2019s being done, but I\u2019m saying that with it going to auction and being on the open market, there is a potential that we won\u2019t have people from organisations from our local country being able to win at that auction. Therefore, that means no company that is involved in this could have the moral obligation back to our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s take one example of that: Skycity are a provider of online gambling who are offshore currently. They have their online site offshore because they can\u2019t legally run it in New Zealand. They, potentially, might not be successful at that online auction, yet they have a moral obligation because they are a big company linked back to this country. We might not have them or any other New Zealand company involved in winning any of those online auctions. We could have companies that don\u2019t give a damn about the moral fibre of this country winning at that auction. That\u2019s what this bill does, and that\u2019s the problem that we see with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to see an online regime here. I want to see something that\u2019s going to keep New Zealanders safe, but this bill has the potential to do exactly the opposite, and, to me, I can\u2019t morally vote for it, because I have seen that damage. Once, as the Minister, when I was up in Whang\u0101rei, I walked through a library, and the library people were telling me about all of the wonderful free internet that they were providing with their computers. Every single one of those computers\u2014all 15 of them\u2014was on an online gambling site. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to see protections, but this bill has the potential to go in the absolute opposite direction. It pains me that we don\u2019t have something on the Table here today that is going to keep New Zealanders safe. That is what you are voting on today\u2014the other side is voting on a bill that has the potential to do the exact opposite of what has been said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI am never going to be in a place where I am going to put New Zealanders and the people that I see that are unsafe in this area at harm any more, but I am willing to work on a solution, and I am willing to sit down and come to something that is cross-party in this area because I think we owe it to New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI also think we owe it to New Zealanders to have a broader discussion on the community funding. While I agree with what has happened, overall, my heart says we need to look at how we can decouple that community funding and look at other ways, because it is completely immoral that we are propping up our brilliant community organisations on the back of such harm. We need to have that serious discussion, and I hope that we can be adult enough to have that in the next short while. It pains me, but I cannot support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b618b847a57b4afb94b76eaea9e042a5\u0022 data-id=\u00227aaadf9570186f90f029d3d24369de7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b618b847a57b4afb94b76eaea9e042a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227aaadf9570186f90f029d3d24369de7f\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill) (12:24)\u003C/span\u003E: I am personally against gambling. I was told that enjoying gambling, drugs, alcohol, and smoking isn\u2019t a path to a stable life in New Zealand. In my ideal world, we should ban any form of gambling, but we need to be realistic. Online gambling does exist. Online platforms are now making global gambling accessible at any moment, exposing more people to harm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis bill will not stop people from online gambling. However, it does take the necessary steps by closing those loopholes and bringing greater oversight to online gambling. Therefore, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the Online Casino Gambling Bill be now read a third time\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5; Ferris.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a8ff6e3602c492880b65258f59645c0\u0022 data-id=\u0022085a3998a089a6ebcb8633b9fcbdcfc1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a8ff6e3602c492880b65258f59645c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022085a3998a089a6ebcb8633b9fcbdcfc1\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK (National\u2014East Coast) (12:26)\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I might be mistaken, but I was pretty sure the Greens voted 14 votes, which would make it not 55 votes, but 54.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e66329e431ea47019b41524c6ef2954a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e77b788891ed0edf24d626067798ab0\u0022\u003ECelia Wade-Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, I did say tekau m\u0101 wha\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022114f857c1060f1fb0c8de2b46da8a546\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I heard 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a8ff6e3602c492880b65258f59645c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da69db0d940cac0b3ba982cd7caf0561\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK\u003C/span\u003E: I think it\u2019s the calculation: it\u2019s 54, not 55.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251612f724d85ca449bb71b926c22bfdd\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just have a look at the maths. OK, the Ayes are 68 and the Noes are 54. The question is still agreed to. Fast maths over there\u2014congratulations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002220776f49725bc1dc76f07248c5769ff5\u0022\u003EBuilding and Construction Sector (Self-certification by Plumbers and Drainlayers) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d147c1b616c53f909b4fb4177c02cb67\u0022\u003ELegislative Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022624b5e5ecd274e178a4554c1ae59f723\u0022 data-id=\u00225ca63a875f1c8a083294dc84e0f0ea85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022624b5e5ecd274e178a4554c1ae59f723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ca63a875f1c8a083294dc84e0f0ea85\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction) (12:27)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I seek leave to present a legislative statement on the Building and Construction Sector (Self-certification by Plumbers and Drainlayers) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271f01bf6f1bf78ecdce247cbcdbf3061\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There appears to be none. That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225e88661100a36ea2555ebdf646fb9c96\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022624b5e5ecd274e178a4554c1ae59f723\u0022 data-id=\u00228b4734673a8e788e3886cc14bcdbd7ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022624b5e5ecd274e178a4554c1ae59f723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b4734673a8e788e3886cc14bcdbd7ed\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction) (12:28)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the Building and Construction Sector (Self-certification by Plumbers and Drainlayers) Amendment Bill be now read a second time\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to start by thanking the Transport and Infrastructure Committee\u2014including, in particular, its chair, Mr Andy Foster\u2014for their careful deliberation on the bill. I\u2019d also like to thank everyone who submitted on the bill at select committee. The submissions resulted in a number of changes that will improve the workability of the bill and, as I shall go on to explain later, regulations that we\u2019ll make to give effect to the scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s usual in the second reading, almost as a courtesy, to mention the work of the select committee, and I duly acknowledge the work that\u2019s been done, but, actually, in this case particularly, I do want to make a point of saying that substantive changes to the bill and the regime more generally have actually resulted from really good, thorough, robust discussion, appropriately reflecting the tension\u2014and I use that phrase not in an ugly sense, of course\u2014between the select committee, that which the Minister on behalf of the Government had put forward, and industry, including, especially, through the work of Master Plumbers, etc. I think we\u2019ve ended up with a much better result than that which I would have proposed to Parliament, so I do want to really clearly set out for the record that I\u2019m grateful for the members who contributed to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe all know that the building consent system is somewhat slow and inefficient. It can delay and cause increase to cost to build in this country. Inefficiencies are caused by the understandably risk-averse behaviour and limited capacity of building consent authorities\u2014almost invariably councils. A couple of former mayors of Wellington would no doubt have some sympathy for that view, including particularly the fact that they have the unfunded mandate, in local government speak, for the work that we ask them to do in this space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe system also, though, discourages professionals from taking responsibility for their own work, which is another cause of inefficient behaviour. This bill introduces an opt-in scheme, allowing approved plumbers and drainlayers to self-certify that their work complies with the building consent, without the need for an inspection by a building consent authority\u2014I\u2019m just going to say BCA from now on for that. This will save time and money for practitioners, BCAs, and building owners. It will allow plumbers and drainlayers to get on with the job and to be trusted to do it right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis bill is about choice. Individuals and businesses will be able to decide if they want to use this pathway to save time and money. They can also, on the other hand, decide to continue to have the building consent authorities inspect their work if they wish. The scheme enables approved professionals to take responsibility for their work, while maintaining consumer confidence that the work will be consistent with the consent and building code requirements. It also helps BCAs to use their resources more efficiently by enabling them to focus on other, higher-risk work that deserves their attention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere are a number of safeguards in the bill to ensure that the work is carried out by appropriately qualified plumbers and drainlayers. First, BCAs will still be assessing their overall building design, including the design of plumbing and drainlaying to ensure that it meets the building code\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E The Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Board will be able to set minimum standards so that only competent practitioners who can cover their civil liabilities will be able to self-certify. These standards must cover a technical competency, experience, ability to meet potential civil liability, and business and administrative practices. In practice, this means that plumbers and drainlayers will still need to go through robust checks before being part of that scheme, so building owners and consumers can be confident that the work will be done right\u2014and, actually, in the event that push comes to shove, so to speak, there would be appropriate recourse and redress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe scope of self-certifiable work will be limited to the definition set in regulations. Again, I\u2019ll touch more on that shortly, but I do want to assure you that it\u2019s something that I\u2019m focused on getting right\u2014again, with due acknowledgment of the work that\u2019s been done by the select committee, submitters, and so on to ensure that we get to that place. Self-certifiers will issue certificates of compliance, which must be accepted by BCAs as evidence that the work complies with the building consent. Territorial authorities must keep the certificates issued by self-certifiers and make them available to the public. In practice, this will mean that the public can view the certificates as part of a property file. Information from the certificates will also be held on a searchable public register, supporting transparency for the board, future owners, and other interested parties such as insurers and maybe lenders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe board will also be able to audit self-certifiers and the certificates of compliance they issue, with appropriate powers to discipline self-certifiers where things go wrong. These powers are important to give the board the tools for proper oversight and are a key feature of a self-certification scheme. If an audit finds that something is not right, the board will be able to fine the self-certifier or cancel or suspend their endorsement to self-certify among other possible disciplinary actions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFinally, there are also broader consumer protections available in the Building Act, including implied warranties and defect remediation periods. I have also announced the move to proportionate liability, which will have appropriate supporting structures in place to support that shift\u2014more on that on another day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMoving now to changes recommended by the committee to improve the bill, I will point out that they made recommendations that will improve the workability\u2014again, with some further discussions about what the regulations flowing from the Act will need to cover. Because these changes can be found in the report, I don\u2019t intend to go through every recommendation today; others might, obviously, wish to do so. I will instead focus on the key changes, and I will briefly summarise them now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFirst, the select committee recommended expanding the professions who can declare that the work is self-certifiable as part of an application for building consent to also include registered architects, chartered professional engineers, and design-class licensed building practitioners\u2014or LBPs. This will allow BCAs to be satisfied that the proposed work is self-certifiable before they grant a building consent, regardless of whether plumbers or drainlayers have been engaged at the time that the consent is lodged. This is a sensible change that will make the process of applying for a consent that includes self-certified work more aligned with how plumbers and drainlayers work in practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENext, I appreciate the select committee\u2019s recommendation that the bill explicitly state that a building consent may include both self-certified and non - self-certified plumbing and drainlaying work. This recommendation clarifies that self-certifiable work can be done by a self-certifier while any remaining plumbing or drainlaying work that is not self-certifiable will still be subject to oversight from the BCA. This will allow a self-certification to apply to more building consents while managing the risks associated with higher work\u2014again, seeking to strike a balanced and proportionate approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI shift now to the powers of the board to provide oversight of the scheme. I appreciate the select committee\u2019s recommendation to ensure the board has appropriate powers to audit self-certifiers. Auditing provides the opportunity to assess whether the self-certifier continues to meet the minimum standards for eligibility to the scheme between the three-yearly renewal periods for endorsements. The committee\u2019s recommendation will ensure that the board has these powers and can fund these audits through appropriate cost-recovery mechanisms. It will ensure that the board can check whether a self-certified plumber or drainlayer is self-certifying in accordance with the expected standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe committee also recommended that the board report on its audit activity through an annual report. This means that the number and outcome of practitioner audits and audits of certificates of compliance are transparent. This, in general, will support consumer confidence in the scheme and provide valuable insights into the performance of self-certifiers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m nearly done! The select committee also considered the scope of work that can be self-certified under the scheme. It is important to balance the needs for the scheme to be attractive to both plumbers and drainlayers, as well as consumers, while mitigating the consequence if things were to go wrong. I\u2019m confident that, between the committee\u2019s recommendations in the bill and the regulations that we\u2019re proposing, we\u2019ll end up getting that balance right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI will just briefly now, in my final remaining moment, take the opportunity to talk about the proposed regulations. Having listened to those concerns and being mindful of the fact that we need not only a system that\u2019s balanced and proportionate and, therefore, has appropriate nuance about where we draw the line, we also need to make sure that it\u2019s workable in the sense that people know what their roles and responsibilities and obligations are. A scheme that is sufficiently clear and simple and will not be the subject of confusion has been a prime aim of what we\u2019ve sought to achieve in terms of where we draw those lines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI would point out that for a significant number of consents in the rural communities\u2014many of which use on-site systems and can face particular challenges in getting inspectors on site\u2014they wish to be eligible to take advantage of the benefits of the scheme. Similarly, the proposed definitions will allow consents that use sustainable systems, such as solar water heaters, to be within the scope of the scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe effectiveness of the scheme overall depends on ensuring that the regulations are well designed\u2014something that the select committee, quite rightly, highlighted in their commentary. I am confident that we will do this, with thanks again to those officials from the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment who have been working with the board; industry groups, including Master Plumbers; building consent authorities; and insurance providers, to make sure that the scheme is attractive to practitioners, encourages strong uptake, and still appropriately manages the risk associated with self-certification. On that note, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c955e1bbb926283bb957877d630802f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u00223d166479317218f0d2d88c2b7a621598\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d166479317218f0d2d88c2b7a621598\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa) (12:37)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Good on that Minister and good on the hard-working select committee, ably chaired by Andy Foster, for taking on the concerns that have come up from submitters and from the industry on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis is not a technical bill; this is a bill that really impacts on ordinary people\u2019s lives. Just this morning, at 8 o\u2019clock, I received an email from Jenny. It\u2019s full of explanation marks, and it\u2019s titled \u201CPlumbers\u201D. She says, \u201CWho keeps guarantees for 25 years? Who honours it? Make them!\u201D She also says, \u201CIs there a law that forbids companies from producing tax without spare parts available? So frustrating!\u201D Jenny, you\u2019re right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThese are the kinds of emails that we receive every day. Minister, I can see that you receive them too, and that this is one of those bills where it has been hard to turn around a big ship, in the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment, that is resistant to the kind of change that people, New Zealanders, these consumers, people like Jenny, are desperately calling for. That is what we are trying to do here. We are trying to make it more affordable for ordinary and low-risk plumbing to be done in residential homes in low-risk situations. I think we\u2019ve made good progress here, but there is more we could do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe select committee wasn\u2019t able to produce some amendments that have been called for by submitters. I\u2019m going to use my speech not to talk about what we did arrive at\u2014because that was good work, and I hope the chair will talk about that\u2014but about the things that are missing from what submitters hoped we would be able to make some progress on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOur support for this remains cautious and not unconditional. My third reading speech will be about the big issues in this, which are about who carries the risk and that liability, because underlying all of this is the need that consumers and homeowners should not bear all of the risk; it should be spread between central and local government and between the practitioners, and that should be fair, because Jenny, at the end of the day, shouldn\u2019t be the one who is left picking up the pieces if things go wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBut in this speech, let me tell you about the things that I hope we can continue to push out on that are not within the current confines of this bill. Things have been excluded from a regime that is designed to speed up simple work because the official advice has been that those things are not simple. I think that\u2019s wrong. That\u2019s my opinion; I\u2019m not a plumber, but neither are the people who will mostly be paying for this work and neither are the people who want to see this work becoming more affordable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe first of these is around the pump systems\u2014pump water supply and irrigation circulation systems. These are really common in some areas like the K\u0101piti Coast, and they\u2019re also really common in rural areas and regional areas. They\u2019ve been excluded from what is considered to be simple work. That means that a huge number of houses in large swathes of the country will also be excluded from this regime. That doesn\u2019t seem fair to me. But, also, I was able to go out with a couple of plumbers and to see these systems. These are systems which can be bought from a hardware store at a price which most consumers could afford to do themselves, and often do, but these are being excluded from what plumbers can do because they are not seen as simple by the officials. That doesn\u2019t seem sensible to me. We\u2019ve created an incentive in the marketplace here for me and Cameron to do our own because that will be cheap and is, in fact, legal, but we\u2019ve also excluded the ability of qualified plumbers to self-certify on that work. Why is that? From the layperson\u2019s perspective, that makes no sense, and we weren\u2019t able to hear from officials about why they would also continue to support a regime like that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere was also a call for solar hot water to be included in this. Heat pump systems and other modern installations are something that plumbers do all the time in New Zealand\u2019s context. These are good things. We should be encouraging them. We should have a regime where it is simple and affordable to be able to install these systems quickly. They are not more risky than other hot water systems. Hot water systems all carry a risk, and they are a serious risk that we should not take lightly: the risk is that they explode. But there is no greater risk from hot water systems which are not solar, and those are systems which are included in this regime. The argument here is that the ordinary person on the street who is choosing between these systems will get a quicker route if they do not elect the solar route. That\u2019s not based on risk; it\u2019s simply based on what has been included in a table from officials. That seems like the wrong call to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGrey water reuse systems have also been excluded. This is something that myself and Celia Wade-Brown took up with officials quite in depth, because this is something which, also, is important to systems which are more environmentally friendly and which consumers should have a choice to use, should they want to use their grey water in a way which is going to be not only better for their property in that they\u2019re reusing grey water, but they\u2019re also saving grey water from flowing out into already overloaded systems. This is an important thing that we should be removing any of the barriers from to enable better, more energy-efficient systems of building. This is something that doesn\u2019t make sense to exclude from the simple works. The idea here is, perhaps, there was a health risk. To quote Master Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers (NZ) Inc. on this: \u201CThere\u2019s no toilet waste involved. Risk of cross-connection is very low when installed by a licensed plumber.\u201D We trust plumbers to get these sorts of things right. These are the things that they deal with every day. The risk here is not greater than anything else we\u2019re allowing them to self-certify on now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ERetention and detention systems is in the same category as this. The plumber I talked to told me pump systems are needed for the majority of rural properties. If he\u2019s going to be out doing rural properties, he wants to be able to self-certify them. The retention and detention systems that she does every day have been excluded by this Government\u2014probably because the majority of people who work on these systems and the policy aren\u2019t dealing with those systems all the time. It\u2019s not the systems that most people in Wellington would be familiar with in their usual, everyday life, but this is something that plumbers who work in rural areas deal with all the time, and we can certainly find ways of speeding up property connections for rural people at the same time as we do this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI also want to bring the House\u2019s attention to the views of Master Plumbers around duplicating existing controls rather than targeting the real risk. The idea here is that within a system like the granny flats enabling system, which is about very small dwellings, all of their work is certified. So everything that I\u2019ve just said\u2014which most of you would have thought, \u201COh yeah, that seems sensible, let the plumbers do that.\u201D\u2014that is allowed if your building is under 70 square feet; that is perfectly fine. If you\u2019re building 75 square feet, it\u2019s not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a8ff6e3602c492880b65258f59645c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022917cf81df3cfcf00aa2af68cec17c78c\u0022\u003EDana Kirkpatrick\u003C/span\u003E: Metres.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a93dedc88ee261ac9c1b289a9ebf2cc\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, metres\u201475 square metres. It\u2019s important to understand here that it\u2019s duplicating rules and making it quite hard for the actual plumbers who are doing the work to make sure that they are complying with these rules. The absurdity of also having different roles for a solar install on a small property versus one that\u2019s slightly larger than that becomes very clear in that context.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIf we can tidy these things up, if we can make sure that the plumbers actually doing this work are enabled to continue this, then this will be a workable system. We still have to figure out as a country who bears the risk of this bill, and currently the arrangements for this bill really rely on sorting out proportional liability at the other end. We need central and local government to take their fair share of the risk on. Currently, that\u2019s not what\u2019s going to happen, and so we need to make sure that we also do that work around who carries the guarantees, who carries the insurance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBut this is something that we support, because it brings down the costs for ordinary people to get this work done at the top end, and then we have to, also, sort out the back end of what happens when things go wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e66329e431ea47019b41524c6ef2954a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8fd331ae0049936360c86f9fb51af6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e66329e431ea47019b41524c6ef2954a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8fd331ae0049936360c86f9fb51af6e\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN (Green) (12:46)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I would like to start by saying, first of all, that the Green Party really supports plumbers and tradies and the essential work that\u2019s done\u2014for domestic comfort, for safety, and for all of the work that they do. I think there\u2019s about 28,000 plumbers registered in this country or thereabouts, so thank goodness for them, especially with the extraordinary rainfall we\u2019ve been having that has actually exposed a number of issues in past plumbing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI would also like to say thank you to the chair for the Transport and Infrastructure Committee and my colleagues with slightly different views and experiences. We were certainly enabled to raise issues, have our say, and ask plenty of questions of both the submitters and the officials.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere is a connected bill\u2014and it would be really tidy if they could have come in together, perhaps\u2014about occupational licensing that we do support. A number of the submissions actually made points both about occupational licensing and about increasing the self-certification, and we would, in some ways, have liked to have dealt with those together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis bill is a tricky one, because you\u2019re weighing up the balance of risk\u2014who takes that risk\u2014and potentially making something cheaper and easier and quicker. I think that people deciding to vote one way or the other can be somewhat of a line call on this. I agree with my colleague Arena Williams that there could be some further improvements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI just want to quote a couple of things here. I\u2019d like to quote one of the submitters, the Christchurch City Council. They say in their submission: \u201CThe self-certification of plumbers and drainlayers is more concerning \u2026 [and] The Council\u201D\u2014point 5\u2014\u201Cis concerned that most plumbers and drainlayers are not consistently reliable enough to self-certify their work with no third-party overview. The Council observed substantial non-compliant work carried out or supervised by Licensed Building Practitioners (LBPs) after the Canterbury earthquake sequence where there was no third-party overview by persons with no financial involvement (such as a Council).\u201D I think it\u2019s very useful to take what Christchurch City Council has said. This is not a personal opinion; this is an opinion of a large council\u2014and not Wellington, because I thought that would be a bit too close to the bone\u2014to actually reflect that they\u2019re not, or at least at that stage, fully convinced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere remain some very big questions about what insurance products will be available. The self-certification of electricians and gasfitters is relatively straightforward, because the problems are found straight away or could be tested straight away. Plumbing problems don\u2019t necessarily arise for years. You might end up with a very dry year, in which case the earth cracks, or you might, like we have just now, end up with huge rainfall and scouring and burst pipes and so on that may not have been designed for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI also would like to echo my colleague Arena Williams\u2019 issues about some of the greener solutions to plumbing. Detention tanks are also used in urban areas, particularly if you\u2019ve got some steep land and perhaps you don\u2019t have an existing or sufficient stormwater connection. They are complex, but they are also sometimes better than a pump system. They would not be included in this work, however much experience\u2014you might have some somebody quite specialised in doing that work. Maybe there should be some way that they were able to be self-certified for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe other area is, of course, the reuse of grey water. We\u2019re fortunate\u2014and it was installed by plumbers\u2014we have a system that irrigates our orchard from the washing machine, the washing up, things like that, and it works very well. If somebody routinely installs things like NaturalFlow, should they not be able to self-certify for this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think the big question remains about what insurance product is available and for how long they should cover it. Supposing a plumber does some work in the last years of their working life, then\u2014maybe it\u2019s a sole trader\u2014they stop working. Who\u2019s actually going to look after that afterwards so that they\u2019re not going to keep paying from their KiwiSaver into the insurance scheme? I don\u2019t think that has been fully answered yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI do agree that there have been some improvements, particularly the fact that you could combine self-certified and non - self-certified in the same consent. Both can be covered. That sort of mitigates the issue of more sustainable solutions\u2014that are still called \u201Calternative\u201D solutions because systems haven\u2019t quite caught up with more natural systems\u2014but I don\u2019t think it\u2019s quite right yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA couple of other points. The costs of auditing\u2014I think we really heard both from the Master Plumbers and then from the board. Of course, the board is a different kettle of fish from the Master Plumbers, but we heard from the board that auditing was really important. I think there is still a question in my mind about whether the cost of auditing would only be borne by the opt-in plumbers, in which case it might be quite high and might discourage them, or would it be borne across the whole plumbing fraternity? I do say fraternity, because out of those 28,000, I think there\u2019s less than 20 registered female plumbers, which is a bit of a surprise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe also don\u2019t know quite what\u2019s going to come up in the regulations. I understand that and that regulations have to adapt to new mechanisms. We\u2019re certainly looking at home at whether we do electric water heating for a bach or whether we do the solar water heating. Would that be a change\u2014would we be deciding one way or the other depending on whether it was cheaper with a self-certified plumber? I don\u2019t know how much difference that would make. We would probably be more concerned about the absolute safety of the system than the cost, but that\u2019s our situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFinally, it would be really remiss of me in talking about how the Greens support plumbers not to mention, for the safe of \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsTerm\u0022 style=\u0022font-style: italic\u0022\u003EHansard\u003C/span\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsTerm\u0022 style=\u0022font-style: italic\u0022\u003E,\u003C/span\u003E that wonderful Green plumber Hannah Spencer, who is now a member of Parliament for Gorton and Denton. The Greens support the plumbers, and at least some plumbers really support the Green Party. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022440a125e85954bae9f5d470b7551e4f3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b786325f421317fca2f43ad09a643e5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022440a125e85954bae9f5d470b7551e4f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b786325f421317fca2f43ad09a643e5c\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT) (12:54)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise in support of this bill for a quick speech before we charge off for the afternoon. This is a practical, common-sense piece of legislation. It does something that doesn\u2019t normally happen enough in this country, and that\u2019s trust people who are actually doing the work to get on and do it. I\u2019m proud that this Government\u2014and, by the sounds of it, this House\u2014is moving to trust more people actually on the ground getting the mahi done. At the end of the day, when something goes wrong, New Zealanders don\u2019t want to call bureaucracy. They want to call someone who gets their hands dirty, gets in there, and does the job. These are people who we should be trusting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBefore I turn to the substance of the bill, I think it\u2019s fair to say that there\u2019s been some issues raised in this this debate so far about where liability lands and how we can actually make real changes to a scheme to trust people when, currently, you have to go through a hoop set by legislation that requires building consent authorities to oversee and then carry that liability. It\u2019s a big hurdle for us to fix a system without identifying where the liability lands, where that funding, that underwriting, actually comes from, and then give New Zealanders real choices. If we\u2019re going to continue to have councils holding that burden whilst also needing to fund professional indemnity, insurance, and other things, it\u2019s going to make that decision more difficult.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt just shows though, how slow, cumbersome, and bloody annoying it is when you\u2019re on site to be delayed and delayed and delayed because councils can\u2019t get their A into G and actually get there and sign something off. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve got to call for self-certification for trusted building professionals, just like plumbers, drainlayers, and gasfitters. What we need to be able to do is say that delay is what\u2019s causing the cost. It\u2019s not the underwriting that\u2019s causing the cost. The very fact that we\u2019re trying to get around that cost delay by even having something that may not provide that economic decision as it appears on the surface just shows how much these delays are costing New Zealanders, homeowners, our economy, and our infrastructure. New Zealand across the board cannot go on charging into this century without making sure that we get some of this bureaucracy taken out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe select committee, I was not a member on at this particular juncture, but I appreciate the work they\u2019ve done, and the contributions so far have been very good for the House to hear, I think. I was particularly impressed at the Opposition members seeming to want to go further. This is something I can completely get behind\u2014reticulated schemes, bringing on hot water, having grey-water storage. This is fantastic news to hear from the Opposition. I\u2019m looking forward to working hard on producing policies for this election that you can get in behind and support. That will be great fun.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat we need to be doing is making sure that this is not a matter of risk and no risk; it\u2019s a matter of risk and professionalism. If you\u2019ve got a plumber or drainlayer, we can trust, to a large extent, that they know what they\u2019re connecting when they\u2019re connecting pipes up. They\u2019re made at different sizes, for one. They\u2019re different colours. You can see these things. If you\u2019re a professional who\u2019s with this every day, you should be able to identify that. There are risks of grey, black, and stormwater connections being made\u2014it\u2019s acknowledged by everyone involved\u2014but this is a very low risk when you\u2019ve got professional plumbers and drainlayers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat isn\u2019t required to be constantly overseen is things that are in the realm of professional\u2014just doing the work well. Like water hammers\u2014we don\u2019t need inspectors coming out on site and making sure that the person that\u2019s run the pipes has made sure that there\u2019s not a water hammer effect. That is not a critical thing in a building. A water hammer is when you turn off the tap and the pipes shudder and smack into something and make a big noise in the house. It\u2019s bloody annoying, but that\u2019s not a critical failure in a building. That\u2019s just someone who\u2019s not a professional doing their job right. We don\u2019t need to be getting stuck into the nitty gritty of people who genuinely, after doing trades, getting registered, doing the professional development, know what they\u2019re doing and can keep an eye on that. We don\u2019t need a council inspector coming out and checking on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think the expansions that the select committee has made to identify the issues at the design stage and say that registered architects, licensed building practitioner designs, and chartered engineers need to be able to be brought into the scheme so that at the design phase, these can be identified as parts of a building that can be self-certified\u2014so we can actually trust the building professionals, the tradies on the ground who deal with the real world situations. But, actually they need to be identified up front by the partners in the building industry for the people who are out there getting their hands dirty, who don\u2019t always get the acknowledgement that they deserve, and that is the people who are designing our buildings. They need to be able to get it right so that the people on the ground can get it right. There is a whole ecosystem here. I think that goes to show the amount of stages we have to jump through to be able to get stuff built in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAgain, this is a great piece of legislation to try and make sure that the real impact on New Zealand is a more affordable, more responsive, more trusted scheme that says to New Zealanders, says to tradies out there, \u201CYou are building professionals. We know that you have been trained to do this. We trust you as we would another building professional, and we\u2019re here to enable you and get the hell out of the way.\u201D Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a77665cef25ba1a342a68e41616a28f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: This debate is interrupted and set down for resumption next sitting day. The House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 1.01 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260422044c67e40a284cc350001429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis early draft is automatically published - it is not yet complete and reviewed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"