"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f10c3ace2b44f774c5d7e7d353d883b4\u0022\u003ETuesday, 28 April 2026\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EThe Speaker\u003C/span\u003E took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225c6e5eb8430d25dc69fcaacc23ca4980\u0022\u003EStart of Sitting Day\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228fa4747368f0cf60045ce4675a0982ff\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022 data-id=\u002204f58ece0bd25633762da69132e74d83\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204f58ece0bd25633762da69132e74d83\u0022\u003ESPEAKER (14:00)\u003C/span\u003E: Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King and pray for guidance in our deliberations that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom, justice, mercy, and humility for the welfare and the peace of New Zealand. Amen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e5732614b7e783947e551422ef00762b\u0022\u003EPresentation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022763f75fa92e48bbec76d5d8816db2b51\u0022\u003EPapers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb73ac319a5e1253a97282d407a25bc0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No petitions have been delivered to the Clerk for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EMinisters have delivered two papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225973eb5815bb1588408056a94fa66b5f\u0022\u003ECLERK (14:01): \u003C/span\u003EClimate Change Commission, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EAdvice on NZ ETS unit limits and price control settings for 2027-2031\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229116ca90bdaa95ffc221092167971e36\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those papers are published under the authority of the House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022617c7d8cd29fa3c103e2e8a8107c3518\u0022\u003ECLERK (14:01): \u003C/span\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EFree Trade Agreement\u003C/span\u003E\u2014sorry; one to go\u2014\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003Ebetween the Government of New Zealand and the Government of the Republic of India\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5c43fb4aab7a31b1952d05e271dc3d8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well, that paper is also published under the authority of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227c5e72ca24b76c632ff30b9a96a184b0\u0022\u003ESelect Committee Reports\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227764830aed724fbfd14abac4708ab34d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Nine select committee reports have been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bad5ba91d5459193826c1bc10e3bcbc\u0022\u003ECLERK (14:01): \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItemSL1\u0022\u003EReport of the Environment Committee on the Environment (Disestablishment of Ministry for the Environment) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereport of the Finance and Expenditure Committee on the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Monetary Policy Statement, February 2026\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereport of the Governance and Administration Committee on the reports of the Controller and Auditor-General: \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EHow Tasman District Council and Waikato Regional Council mitigate flood risk\u003C/span\u003E; \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EImproving Auckland Council\u0027s emergency preparedness: A follow-up report\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereport of the Health Committee on the briefing on menopause education and awareness\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereports of the Officers of Parliament Committee on the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItemSL2\u0022\u003E2026-27 draft budgets for the Office of the Controller and Auditor-General, the Office of the Ombudsman, and the Office of the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment; alterations to the 2025-26 appropriations for Vote Audit, Vote Ombudsmen, and Vote Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItemSL2\u0022\u003E2026-27 draft budgets for the Parliamentary Service and the Office of the Clerk of the House of Representatives\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereports of the Petitions Committee on the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItemSL2\u0022\u003Epetition of Barbara Kuriger MP\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItemSL2\u0022\u003Epetition of Brian Webb\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereport of the Regulations Review Committee on the complaint about the Airports (Cost Recovery for Processing of International Travellers) Regulations 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022197113837c85e5201a1fb271880a3378\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for second reading, and the reports from the Finance and Expenditure, Governance and Administration, Health, Officers of Parliament, and Regulations Review Committees are set down for consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b1cf6b0c9aeda1be3edac7bed0b7cdbc\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226231572d2f3d52cf526fa79fe120dc1b\u0022\u003ESerious Fraud Office Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022024d31d7395dac7ae2d6c449b306b060\u0022\u003EIntroduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b8f8267ca572e895f2ecaa8d3360ebb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Clerk\u2019s been informed of the introduction of a bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228021c26ee96f711516d73887570b69cf\u0022\u003ECLERK (14:03): \u003C/span\u003ESerious Fraud Office Amendment Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220655d469c8f6271d5d85000ffeba893c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229c39242e71c433c1d69025e15bce6be7\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222a7527bdd9c153257f8cbab3d2cd37dd\u0022\u003ECorrections (Management of Prisoners, and Prisoners\u2019 Property) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220993e38b79b59a266607c7e3feb48f51\u0022\u003ELegislative Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022103925b6f9e64afea9688613b42f53f5\u0022 data-id=\u00220113d2bf7467e65223c86b6dc7a6988d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022103925b6f9e64afea9688613b42f53f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220113d2bf7467e65223c86b6dc7a6988d\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (Minister of Corrections) (14:55)\u003C/span\u003E: I present a legislative statement on the Corrections (Management of Prisoners, and Prisoners\u2019 Property) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ce541c283bcc91d3018c9b8f0da8a96\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226476099cab39ed7ec123e730ac1bd830\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022103925b6f9e64afea9688613b42f53f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022654243d64cfeba81cefd1fcf5c3cc240\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022103925b6f9e64afea9688613b42f53f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022654243d64cfeba81cefd1fcf5c3cc240\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (Minister of Corrections) (14:56)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the Corrections (Management of Prisoners, and Prisoners\u2019 Property) Amendment Bill be now read a first time\u003C/span\u003E. I nominate the Justice Committee to consider the bill. At the appropriate time, I intend to move that the bill be reported to the House by 3 September 2026.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe bill, as tabled in the House in March, underscores this Government\u2019s commitment to restoring law and order. It will see real and practical steps taken to enhance prison and public safety, and it creates a clearer and stronger legislative framework to manage prisoners who pose an extreme risk to prison and public safety, while balancing natural justice. In recent years, Corrections has been focused on ensuring that it minimises the risks posed by a small number of prisoners who pose an extreme threat to others. For example, their history of serious violence towards others, their connection to transnational organised crime, or the risk that their ideology poses to prison or public safety. At the same time, it is important for Corrections\u2019 legislative powers to adequately provide the necessary management tools and protections to manage these prisons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis bill creates a comprehensive legislative framework for the safe and lawful management of prisoners who pose an extreme risk to prison and/or public safety while in prison. Currently, these prisoners are held in the Prisoners of Extreme Risk Unit in Auckland Prison. They require a high level of custodial management to minimise risks they pose to staff and others in prison and/or to the public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis bill enables the Corrections chief executive to make both interim and final determinations about whether a prisoner should be a designated management prisoner. The final decision itself is informed by an expert advisory panel\u2019s recommendation and the information they considered, and any other information the chief executive considers relevant. A designated management prisoner will likely be subject to more restrictions than other prisoners. For example, they are likely to receive fewer hours of unlock and fewer contact visits. Corrections is also likely to monitor their communications more intensively for intelligence purposes to identify risks to the prison or public safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhile the bill has focused on protecting the safety of the community and good order of prisons, it balances natural justice. To ensure natural justice, the prisoner must be notified, as soon as reasonably practicable, that an advisory panel is considering whether to recommend that they be designated management prisoners. They then have the right to provide any written information to inform the panel\u2019s deliberations. Once the prisoner has been designated, the chief executive must provide them with a written summary of the reasons why. The prisoner can request a judicial review of the decision, and the Corrections chief executive is also required to review the designation if new and relevant information comes to light, or there has been a change in circumstances that may make the determination inappropriate or unnecessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe bill strikes a balanced approach that safeguards public and prison safety while managing the designated management prisoners\u2019 welfare. Designated management prisoners will be in specific cells that give them more personal space, with each cell having its own self-contained yard. They\u2019ll also be able to make at least two hours of phone calls each week, more than the minimum five-minute entitlement for the general prison population. These important provisions aim to mitigate the potential impact of other restrictive measures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u201CDesignated-management\u201D prisoners\u2014in fact, all prisoners\u2014will also be supported by the bill\u2019s move to explicitly prohibit prolonged solitary confinement. The bill explicitly provides for prisoners to receive 10 hours of meaningful human contact over each 14-day period, while also requiring Corrections to aim for considerably more: 14 hours of meaningful human contact each week. For the avoidance of doubt, \u201Cmeaningful human contact\u201D is contact by the prisoner with one or more, or other, persons\u2014for example, other prisoners, corrections staff, or visitors. That enables social interaction and stimulation. This is more than fleeting or incidental contact and could be face-to-face contact or contact via a telephone call or audiovisual link.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe bill also takes action to minimise the risk of prisoner trust accounts being used for illicit activities. I understand that some prisoners use prisoner trust accounts for activities that can undermine prison or public safety. The bill enhances Corrections\u2019 oversight of these transactions, which should minimise the risk of prisoner-to-prisoner intimidation and influence, and financial coercion, and other illicit activities relating to prisoner trust accounts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe bill also makes practical changes to facilitate more efficient Corrections operations in several areas. Prison managers will be able to more easily vary prisoners\u2019 ability to associate with others, based on their risk. This greater flexibility will improve operational efficiency and allow managers to tailor association conditions to individual risk levels. It will also enable prisoners who no longer require the highest level of restriction to move from denied association to restricted association more readily. As a result, fewer prisoners should experience unnecessarily limited social contact, while those who do require strict controls will continue to have them. In some circumstances, prison managers will also be required to treat multiple subsequent segregation directions under the Act as a single continuous period, provided that prisoners move between the same direction within a five-day period. This will enhance oversight of prisoners\u2019 circumstances over extended periods of segregation and supports the lawful and humane management of prisoners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe bill also makes minor but important amendments to the disposal and destruction of prisoner property provisions. Currently, prisoners must be present whenever an item of the property is destroyed, which is very impractical. This bill changes that so that Corrections can destroy a prisoner\u2019s property without them being present, provided that the prisoner has written notice that their property is going to be destroyed, with a specified period available for the prisoner to respond to that decision. This is a technical change to better reflect operational realities. The type of property that would be destroyed is already listed in the Act: alcohol, controlled drugs, as well as dangerous, objectionable, or perishable items.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA more substantive change is that the bill protects public safety by enabling the destruction of a prisoner\u2019s property who was designated as a terrorist entity at the time of their death. The Prime Minister can designate someone as a terrorist entity under the Terrorism Suppression Act 2002 if they believe on reasonable grounds that the person has knowingly carried out a terrorist act. Currently, Corrections manages only one prisoner with this designation. There may be some situations where the property of a prisoner who has been designated as a terrorist entity may cause harm if it gets released into the community. As an example, the property may cause harm to victims even when the item is not in and of itself an inherently harmful item but is just by the fact of who owned that item. For this reason, the bill allows Corrections to apply to the High Court for an order to destroy this property when the person has passed away, provided the court is satisfied that the property may cause harm if it is circulated in the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to conclude by thanking all those who contributed to the development of this bill. It is great to see this important work progress to this stage. I look forward to seeing us debating the bill in more detail during the committee of the whole House. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022 data-id=\u00221f77437904e6e9a85e201209fa15e7c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f77437904e6e9a85e201209fa15e7c7\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour) (15:04)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Mr Speaker. This is a really difficult bill in many ways, because it is dealing with the conditions of some of the people who would probably deserve the least amount of sympathy from the public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis bill originated, as I understand, from concerns that were raised by the Ombudsman in late, I think, 2024, and there was a very strongly worded report drafted by the then Ombudsman around the conditions of prisoners who form part of this unit\u2014these prisoners of extreme risk, who, under this bill, will be \u201Cdesignated-management prisoners\u201D. When the Ombudsman looked into this unit, the findings were quite difficult for the Ombudsman to reconcile with the international agreements that New Zealand has signed up to and, additionally, with the values that he reported to recognise in New Zealand as a nation. Some of the comments that were in that report was that the unit was found to be \u201Coppressive\u201D; he said he found human rights abuses; he said there are examples of the use of force; and there was cruel and inhumane and degrading treatment. Obviously, this was something taken seriously by the Government, and I think it is commendable that these types of quite stark findings were treated seriously by the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESince then, I understand\u2014and I did visit this unit in the last recess, because we were aware that this bill was coming up, alongside our corrections spokesperson Tracey McLellan\u2014that a number of the recommendations or a number of the areas have been addressed by some of the staff already in that unit. I do note and want to acknowledge the staff that do work in that unit. They do an incredibly hard job working with some of the most dangerous inmates in New Zealand, and I want to acknowledge the staff for the role that they do play. A reflection that I would have is that this does put some additional responsibilities on to those staff. I do recognise the changes that they have made, but this will legislate additional changes and there will need to be resourcing for that. One of the questions that I\u2019m interested to hear from the Minister at select committee is whether there is resourcing put aside for these changes. So I think that will be important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOne of the questions that remains slightly outstanding for us on this bill is the people who are put within this highly controlled unit. There\u2019s obviously the situation of people designated as a terrorist, and I don\u2019t think there would be much debate, in any forum, that that was the appropriate place for such people to be. Of course, I understand there are around about 16 people in this unit, at the moment, and many of those people may be more of a risk from what they can organise, rather than to safety\u2014and so I think that that\u2019s something that I just want to put on notice, which the Labour Party will be looking into at select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOn the whole, though, this is a very detailed bill. There\u2019s been a lot of work put into it. It\u2019s been considered. I want to acknowledge that the people who are impacted by this bill have committed some horrendous crimes and there\u2019s unlikely to be much public sympathy for them, but I do think it\u2019s commendable as a country if those people who are under the most, probably, severe forms of public control\u2014if we do try and make sure that the areas in which they live and they live their lives reflect our shared view of humanity. I think that that\u2019s an important point to note, without expressing any empathy or sympathy at all to those who may be in that position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESo there are some important issues to consider here. We will support this bill through to select committee. It does provide for increased human rights for these prisoners, and it does look to address some of the various serious issues that were noted in that Ombudsman report. It is a very tricky issue, and I just wanted to note, again, the incredible work that many people do in the prison system that\u2019s very dangerous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc9b32cdd8ca4353422ddfe6137ec22e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc9b32cdd8ca4353422ddfe6137ec22e\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central) (15:09)\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Green Party to speak to this bill. We will be supporting this bill to select committee, and it\u2019s really important for us to explain why that is. The main reason we are keen to explore this bill further is because this bill establishes additional minimum entitlements to what is currently in the Act, and extends that to a wider number of people in prison. For those who aren\u2019t aware, minimum entitlements are things like access to daylight, exercise, human contact, bedding\u2014basically, your human rights and your human needs that you need while in custody in order to survive. They really are the bare minimum to keep people alive. We support establishing those really clearly within legislation, because Corrections do not have a good track record when it comes to honouring and fulfilling minimum entitlements in general.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EDuring the COVID-19 lockdowns, there was attention on Corrections\u2019 inability to fulfil people\u2019s minimum entitlements, and within a COVID context, there was maybe some flexibility afforded to them because of the circumstances and the context at the time. However, this behaviour has persisted beyond the COVID lockdowns, and we actually saw the chief executive of Corrections before the High Court at the end of last year as he was issued a mandamus order because he was not meeting his legal obligations under the Corrections Act to fulfil minimum entitlements at Auckland prison. There have been ongoing issues at Auckland prison in terms of people in that prison not being able to have their minimum entitlements met, and that has been taken to the highest level in terms of the chief executive being accountable for not meeting those entitlements. We support any establishment of those entitlements, because without this bill there would be none, in terms of what it establishes. We support that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELike the former speaker, Camilla Belich, I\u2019ve been to the Prisoners of Extreme Risk Unit (PERU). I did it straight away when I became an MP with the corrections portfolio. Not only have I been to PERU; I\u2019ve spoken to psychiatrists who work in the unit. This is a unit that was established in extraordinary circumstances in order to hold, if not the worst person, one of the worst people in the history of this country in custody. That is the establishment of that unit. We understand why such a unit has to exist, and we absolutely support parts of this bill that attempt to deter or prevent any further spreading of those kinds of hateful, extremist, terrorist views that are not from here and do not belong here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI also want to point out that following the March 15\u003Csup\u003Eth\u003C/sup\u003E mosque attacks, there were a number of recommendations that were made by that commission around how New Zealand can combat radicalisation and terrorism, and those have not been fully enacted to this day, so, yes, this is a good step in terms of people who are held in custody and any of the materials that they might distribute while they\u2019re alive or after their death, but I just want to note that in dealing with terrorism, there are a whole range of recommendations that sit there to this day that have not been implemented by any Governments following March 15\u003Csup\u003Eth\u003C/sup\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the report that the Ombudsman published on PERU, and I acknowledge Peter Boshier himself, because he was really dedicated to corrections and what\u2019s going on in our prisons and had a really good understanding and view of things. Without his report, we might not have known that there were people in PERU who were spending 900 days in prolonged solitary confinement and that this goes against so many international conventions when it comes to custody and torture experienced while people are in custody. I know that there has been a monitoring visit to New Zealand, an inspecting visit, that has looked at our prisons, our youth justice residences, jails, police cells\u2014everywhere where custody happens\u2014and that they are yet to report back on the findings of their visit, but I look forward to reading them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn summary, we\u2019re supporting this to select committee. We will be exploring what it means and how we can strengthen the bill for the safety of people in Aotearoa and to crack down on terrorism and radicalisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022443f23de4cbd464f91833e6c466c98c0\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5e628d0169f9502f43af3c476a1c10f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022443f23de4cbd464f91833e6c466c98c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5e628d0169f9502f43af3c476a1c10f\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT) (15:14)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to speak on the Corrections (Management of Prisoners, and Prisoners\u2019 Property) Amendment Bill. As the Minister outlined, this bill does make some important changes around establishing a regime for the management of designated management of prisoners; we\u2019ve got the expansion of the grounds for segregation; the minimum humane treatment standards, which other colleagues across the House have referred to; some new powers relating to prisoners\u2019 property; changes to prisoners\u2019 trust accounts; and then some other technical and operational improvements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EObviously, the Minister\u2019s indicated this will be coming to the Justice Committee, which I\u2019m a member of, so I look forward to working with my other colleagues on this bill, with the other bills we are looking at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELook, simply, this bill is about making sure our corrections system can deal with the reality we are facing today with some of these high-risk prisoners and the risk that they pose, both to staff and the community. Kiwis expect that when someone is behind bars, they\u2019re not operating organisations outside the prison walls. Some of the changes this legislation makes will help close that gap. There are prisoners that pose a real risk, and we want to make sure that they are dealt with in a way that gives Corrections the powers to be able to deal with them but also does maintain some human dignity and treatment for them. I think this bill will strike the right balance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFrom ACT\u2019s perspective, this is really about focusing on making sure we have a justice and corrections system that actually focuses on what matters, and that is, obviously, protecting the public, supporting the front-line staff, and making sure that all the rules regarding those who are incarcerated are clear but workable\u2014clear but workable. That\u2019s really, really important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI look forward to discussions around this bill and making sure our corrections system is up to standard. I\u2019m sure there\u2019ll be many submissions from people. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022493798abf072894dcb5b115d17858d84\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Tracey Costello.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022 data-id=\u00228b17e3184fe1c8c44d13003629164c18\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b17e3184fe1c8c44d13003629164c18\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Minister of Customs) (15:17)\u003C/span\u003E: Casey Costello, sir. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcd52fab38b7b59524b0cacfb8e578a6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241a54fc0e71deb7c2e6178f9d705f1cc\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to speak on the Corrections (Management of Prisoners, and Prisoners\u2019 Property) Amendment Bill. I\u2019d first like to open my address by acknowledging the amazing work, in very difficult circumstances, that our corrections officers do on a daily basis. It is a challenging environment and often thankless, and I would really like to applaud and commend them for their dedication to this role.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also like to acknowledge my colleague Camilla Belich\u2019s approach in this legislation. It is, as she says, very difficult to balance the conversation around this very dangerous cohort of prisoners who it is very difficult to have sympathy for, but we should be reflecting on our message as a society in ensuring that we do provide fundamental human rights and respect and dignity to those in those circumstances. I think that considered response was very useful in this discussion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt is a difficult piece of legislation to work through, but at its core, New Zealand First supports this bill because it is firmly rooted in our foundational belief that we need to protect community and country. The reality is that the prisoners that fall under this designation are a risk to our communities and to our country. The reality is that they do pose a threat even when incarcerated, and, therefore, the risk is not only to the prison staff and the prison itself and other prisoners but also to our community as a whole. The reality is that in the serious organised-crime space, we have had repeated occurrences of these prisoners continuing to operate criminal activity from this space. Then they have the ability to recruit to abhorrent ideologies, and this is something we need to protect our country and our communities from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis is a balanced piece of legislation. It will be taken to the Justice Committee, and I\u2019m sure they will do a very robust job of ensuring that we have submissions made. This is about striking a balance to ensure that our corrections officers are protected and supported in the role they do and that the expectations and rights of these prisoners are clearly balanced with the ability to ensure we maintain safety for our communities and our country. Therefore, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022420f72e8bcc84c869a366ff712af8e49\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb78ad92433c90de96a1c8dc286a75ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022420f72e8bcc84c869a366ff712af8e49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb78ad92433c90de96a1c8dc286a75ca\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Hauraki-Waikato) (15:20)\u003C/span\u003E: \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003ET\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka, otir\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. E t\u016B ana ahau ki te waha i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero m\u0101 Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori i te ahiahip\u014D nei, ki t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 pire. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThank you, Mr Speaker; indeed, greetings to all of us in the House. I stand to give voice to statements on behalf of the M\u0101ori Party this evening regarding this particular bill.\u003C/span\u003E]  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhile this bill prohibits the use of prolonged solitary confinement by introducing minimum requirements for meaningful human contact, the bill also authorises greater use of the segregation and separation of prisoners and new powers to manage prisoner trust accounts and to destroy property connected to and intended to prevent unlawful activity. Regarding Te Tiriti o Waitangi, the bill fails to recognise that the Crown must take positive steps to protect M\u0101ori, and it does not meet the Crown\u2019s obligation of active protection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe bill has been introduced within a broader policy landscape where obligations to Te Tiriti are being undermined, narrowed, and erased. The flow-on effect of this approach is that the bill does not address, nor does it provide a targeted assessment of, impacts on M\u0101ori, despite clear evidence and advocacy by justice experts since the \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EHe Whaipaanga Hou\u003C/span\u003E report in 1988. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe bill makes additional amendments to the Corrections Act 2004, which was recently amended in 2025 to remove explicit references to Te Tiriti. Predictably, Te Tiriti has not been revisited by the amendments proposed under this bill. M\u0101ori make up a disproportionate amount of prisoners in the current prison system. Therefore, the use of the new powers proposed under this bill is likely to have a disproportionate effect on M\u0101ori within the prison system and their wh\u0101nau on the outside, who may also be subject to what are otherwise internal decisions made by managers from within prisons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt is unclear how this bill gives effect to Wai 3060, Te Rau o te Tika, the justice system kaupapa inquiry, which discussed, among other things, the treatment of M\u0101ori prisoners, prison conditions, remand practices, rehabilitation, and reintegration to date. No comprehensive Treaty-based redesign of the justice system has been committed to, and parallel legislation on sentencing prisoners and policing has passed without explicit provisions addressing that very Wai claim. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe total effect of this Government\u2019s harmful policy track record on justice compounded with Government inaction on other social determinants of crime that lead to imprisonment means that wh\u0101nau will continue to fall victim to increased rates in remand and prison expansion. Evidence and expert advice to date highlight the fact that risk-based justice policies disproportionately affect both M\u0101ori inside the prison system and their wh\u0101nau and communities living on the outside. \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003ET\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka\u003C/span\u003E. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb40eb85aab340879622563050ab25fa\u0022 data-id=\u00223dbf6dc6d0fd15efd2d910d29f8fb1fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb40eb85aab340879622563050ab25fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223dbf6dc6d0fd15efd2d910d29f8fb1fc\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty) (15:23)\u003C/span\u003E: I thought that the Minister made a very levelled and very fair contribution in his opening remarks on the legislation. I really want to talk about the substantive amendment in the bill, which is going to establish a really clear statutory basis for the safe, lawful, and humane management of a really small group of prisoners who pose an extreme risk to the Department of Corrections, who manage our prisons, and they are prisoners whom the bill refers to as designated-management prisoners\u2014the DMPs. It is a really pragmatic change that the Minister has outlined as to why we are bringing this about, and, therefore, I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002282ab0ea3cc1948dabe8e5cc6838658d0\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8faf5f1197f9347301fd54c047552d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002282ab0ea3cc1948dabe8e5cc6838658d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8faf5f1197f9347301fd54c047552d4\u0022\u003EDAN ROSEWARNE (Labour) (15:23)\u003C/span\u003E: I rise to speak on the Corrections (Management of Prisoners, and Prisoners\u2019 Property) Amendment Bill in its first reading, and, just like other members here in the House, I just want to acknowledge the work that our corrections officers do. It\u2019s a tough job, and it\u2019s important that we acknowledge their work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour will support this bill to select committee so that it can receive the detailed scrutiny that it deserves. This is a significant piece of legislation. It expands the powers of the Department of Corrections, it creates new management categories, and it alters the balance between operational control and prisoners\u2019 rights. That means that we must examine it carefully. We approach this bill with three clear tests in mind: is it workable, is it properly resourced, and are the safeguards strong enough? Those questions matter because laws passed in this House must work not only in theory but in the reality of understaffed prisons, stretched front-line workers, and a system that is already under pressure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe first major change in this bill is the creation of a formal category of designated-management prisoners. This would apply to prisoners assessed as presenting extreme or high risks. It will allow more restrictive conditions around movement, communications, association, and property. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis bill sets out a formal designation process to be led by the Chief Executive of the Department of Corrections, informed by an advisory panel. It also requires that prisoners be notified when they are being considered for designation and it allows them or their representatives to provide written information. It gives them the right to receive written reasons for a final decision, and to also seek a review. A final designation may last for up to two years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour acknowledges that if the State is going to impose highly restrictive regimes, then a clear legal framework is preferable to ad hoc arrangements. Transparency, reasons for decisions, and review rights are absolutely important principles, but we also recognise that this is a significant expansion of the State\u2019s power to manage individuals outside of the standard prison regimes, and we\u2019ll be testing whether the thresholds are appropriate, whether decisions are evidence-based, and whether there is adequate independent oversight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe second major area is segregation and restricted association. The bill rewrites and broadens the legal basis for segregation and it introduces new grounds for allowing prison managers to segregate a prisoner if they would otherwise commit an offence, recruit or radicalise others into harmful ideologies, or recruit others into organised criminal groups. Now, we understand the operational realities here. Staff must have lawful tools to manage genuine threats, but segregation is one of the most serious powers that are available inside a prison. It can have profound consequences for mental health and rehabilitation, and so Labour will be looking carefully at whether these powers are sufficiently targeted and whether they are applied consistently. We\u2019re also keen to ensure that we do not disproportionately impact particular groups, including M\u0101ori, Pasifika, and prisoners with mental health needs, who are already overrepresented in the prison system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis bill also includes what is known as the five-day rule: treating some repeated segregation directions as one continuous period where a prisoner is removed and returned within five days. That may improve reporting and monitoring, but it also highlights the importance of having proper oversight for extended restrictive management. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOne of the most important aspects of this bill is the introduction of the minimum meaningful human contact requirements. This is the first legislative recognition of that concept, and Labour welcomes that principle. We know that prolonged isolation can cause real psychological harm. If rehabilitation is to mean anything, then prisons must maintain that basic human dignity. Having this bill set out a minimum of 10 hours of meaningful human contact over 14 days, with an aspirational target of 14 hours a week, is a good move, and so, overall, despite some scrutiny at the select committee, we commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c96149a439844ecfa86967f9caf5f50d\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbf643e6e8aacbb15df7b6319f319a33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c96149a439844ecfa86967f9caf5f50d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbf643e6e8aacbb15df7b6319f319a33\u0022\u003EKATIE NIMON (National\u2014Napier) (15:28)\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister has covered this all very well, and I\u2019m really pleased with where this bill has got to. Ultimately, we are in a changing environment, and we need to change the law to suit. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022 data-id=\u0022405c935121d669abb5921cc2b8977867\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022405c935121d669abb5921cc2b8977867\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central) (15:29)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. As Dan Rosewarne noted in his excellent speech, we do support this bill. This bill has arisen largely out of an Ombudsman\u2019s report into conditions at the most maximum security unit at P\u0101remoremo and his finding, essentially, that the conditions there were inhumane. One of the real challenges for that unit was that, essentially, it was governed by administrative order, rather than by any clear legal framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe fact that the corrections system could so significantly curtail prisoner rights, not because of something that this House had done but largely because the corrections executive thought that it was the best way to go about things, was concerning. Absolutely, the Christchurch terrorist is a dangerous person and needs to be kept in the most secure circumstances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOne of the things that this bill does\u2014and I\u2019m not sure it does it well, but that\u2019s for the select committee\u2014is to, essentially, set a threshold for when people are deemed to be prisoners that need this designation of\u2014a most serious designation. What that gets around is this facility being used, essentially, as a holding pen or an overflow pen when the prison muster is a bit high or people being put there because they\u2019ve been difficult or because they\u2019ve got connections within this prison or that prison that are not helpful. It\u2019s entirely appropriate that the threshold for designation is high, because the kind of conditions that people are put in are very challenging indeed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s the other thing that this bill does, which I think is a good thing, which the Corrections Act generally doesn\u2019t do, which is talk about meaningful human contact. We have constraints on solitary confinement, but actually having interactions with people, meaningful interactions, is kind of a human necessity. I mean, we are a social animal\u2014I think was Aristotle who said that. The provision for, I think it\u2019s 14 hours a week is modest, but it\u2019s something. The idea that there will be those kinds of benefits extended to these prisoners\u2014even though it\u2019s actually quite hard to manage, even though you might have to do it with corrections officers present to ensure that nothing goes awry\u2014it\u2019s a good thing. At the end of the day\u2014actually, the minimum is 10 hours, and 14 is the aspiration, but of course we know that in Corrections, when resources are strained, as they very much are at the current time, aspirations are rarely achieved. But, ultimately, this is about public safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe other important thing with this bill is that the designation can be reviewed. It\u2019s not a put them in this most significant security setting and that\u2019s it forever. If circumstances change, which mean that that security designation is no longer appropriate, then it is possible for that to be reviewed and for the prisoner to be put back into maximum security or some other setting. What this essentially is is putting into the law a set of rules to more carefully prescribe what Corrections can do, rather than leaving it up to the administrative discretion of the corrections system and corrections officers and, ultimately, prison managers. That\u2019s got to be a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, whether we\u2019ve got it quite right, that\u2019s absolutely a matter for the select committee. We do need to have a good look at that, because it\u2019s important to make sure, particularly the designation, that the test for designation is an appropriate one. That\u2019s what we\u2019ll be doing at select committee. I look forward to it. But making sure we\u2019ve got some rules around prisoner conditions in the most extreme settings is a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002288978fb9592a4911a8e47eae04d164f3\u0022 data-id=\u002268ac20fda9b1a53065d0e7107c43d90d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002288978fb9592a4911a8e47eae04d164f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268ac20fda9b1a53065d0e7107c43d90d\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula) (15:34)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise in support of the Corrections (Management of Prisoners, and Prisoners\u2019 Property) Amendment Bill. This bill has had very wide support across the House, and I also add my support. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the Corrections (Management of Prisoners, and Prisoners\u2019 Property) Amendment Bill be now read a first time\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 117\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5; Ferris.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002271efdb48d28e118ae1f921e51345f124\u0022\u003EReferral to Select Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283be19a0d2d8d2466cbd241807c0ff59\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the Corrections (Management of Prisoners, and Prisoners\u2019 Property) Amendment Bill be considered by the Justice Committee\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226db304bc229d3b26f2360651c3b12a85\u0022\u003EInstruction to Select Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022103925b6f9e64afea9688613b42f53f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8d8e32683032b34c366f4b9a79752f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022103925b6f9e64afea9688613b42f53f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8d8e32683032b34c366f4b9a79752f2\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (Minister of Corrections) (15:36)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the Corrections (Management of Prisoners, and Prisoners\u2019 Property) Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 3 September 2026\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5; Ferris.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef502ac54f3cde61d1ab46bb65bee8a6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Local Government (Auckland Council) (Transport Governance) Amendment Bill, the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Amendment Bill, the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism (Supervisor, Levy, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill, the Regulatory Systems (Transport) Amendment Bill, the Ng\u0101ti Hei Claims Settlement Bill, and the Building and Construction Sector (Self-certification by Plumbers and Drainlayers) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002276383979e285cf66849bb67edda29101\u0022\u003ELocal Government (Auckland Council) (Transport Governance) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a408b8c73c28d2503ff0a85fb2ce19f9\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000122\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 31 March.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u00229a938e88d8dc21836fb735d5407fe620\u0022\u003EPart 1 Amendments to Parts 1 and 2 (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e55825a9ada914c48455c4b080bab84\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Local Government (Auckland Council) (Transport Governance) Amendment Bill, the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Amendment Bill, the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism (Supervisor, Levy, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill, the Regulatory Systems (Transport) Amendment Bill, the Ng\u0101ti Hei Claims Settlement Bill, and the Building and Construction Sector (Self-certification by Plumbers and Drainlayers) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EWe come first to the Local Government (Auckland Council) (Transport Governance) Amendment Bill. Members, when we were last considering the bill, we were debating Part 1. Part 1 is the debate on clauses 4 to 11, amendments to Parts 1 and 2 of the principal Act. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3bacbcb1e2395baf3ef6f10851b86b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3bacbcb1e2395baf3ef6f10851b86b2\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (15:39)\u003C/span\u003E: Kia orana, Madam Chair. It\u2019s great to be able to pick this particular bill back up. I think the Minister in the chair was the Minister who was answering questions the last time we had this in front of us. One of the questions that I think, to be fair to the Minister, he did seek to address last time was around the disability access to long-term planning documents. Just keen to get the Minister\u2019s reflections since we last raised this issue about whether there\u2019s any change in that particular space. The Minister may recall this is a particular item that was changed as a result of submissions to the select committee from members of the disability community about ensuring that they were able to engage with the long-term planning prospects for Auckland City. I\u2019ll just park that there for the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI want to move on to the decision-making capacity that\u2019s contained specifically in clauses 6 through to 11. A lot of what has been couched around this bill is the ability for the governing body and local boards to be able to either retain or, in some circumstances, actually gain, as a result of the changes that this bill will deliver, decision-making opportunities. Now, with decision making comes the framework for accountability, as well. There has been a little bit of ambiguity, perhaps, in the past, around where the responsibilities lie\u2014who is responsible for making particular decisions? Now, when we look at the context of other transport decisions that are taken elsewhere around the country, there are regional land transport committees that, effectively, have representatives from across the region that make these decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ee8e7e05a9375378e45c287b3d32c6d\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223d2e3f1e325cfb2fe3e61ac990efbf7\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a very good move. That\u2019s a lot of the genesis behind this particular bill\u2014is being able to introduce something similar, moving that away from the Auckland Transport model, across to responsibilities where elected members, or appointed members through ministerial appointees\u2014and we\u2019ll get to that in due course\u2014are empowered to make those particular decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe first question in this area, for the Minister, is: whether he can explain to the committee how these particular clauses will seek to resolve what is, in some regards, longstanding ambiguity when it comes to the role of local boards in decision-making opportunities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, we all know\u2014and those who are from T\u0101maki-makau-rau, more than anyone else in this House, will know\u2014that the local government arrangements for Auckland are, effectively, bespoke. There are no other parts of the country where there is this set-up. There are community boards elsewhere, but there are no local boards anywhere else in the country. Many of those local boards do have significant responsibilities\u2014financial and otherwise\u2014more so than other councils around the motu.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe question for the Minister is: where is the comfort around that balance of local boards being involved in this decision-making opportunity but also striking the right balance in terms of, I guess, local autonomy, to be able to make those decisions as elected members, but also the accountability that they have? On the one hand, it\u2019s fine to say, \u201CWell, we\u2019re going to give local boards this responsibility\u201D\u2014and some colleagues might have questions around where that responsibility actually lies and where the line is drawn, but there\u2019s also an accountability aspect to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMinister, is it that those decisions taken by local boards\u2014they\u2019d be held accountable every three years, through the ballot box, or is it in association with the annual and 10-year plan opportunities that exist for Auckland Council and the associated boards, or are there other accountability mechanisms that exist that either the public, the community, or the elected members could avail themselves of to ensure that they\u2019re able to, effectively, deliver on that accountability frame?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9f6415f5f93b858e8a748ecbd04a8da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9f6415f5f93b858e8a748ecbd04a8da\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (15:43)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I think the accountability question one is straightforward. Along with what the member has outlined, decisions by officials and elected representatives are always subject to judicial review\u2014so if there\u2019s anything that the local boards, councils are doing which would fall foul of natural justice, for example, or the empowering provisions of statute under which they are enabled to make those decisions, those decisions are reviewable through judicial review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2b5c3f5d3be609abab836361f11b088\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2b5c3f5d3be609abab836361f11b088\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa) (15:44)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. This clause 4 is really a lot of the impact of this bill, because it changes the status of local boards under the Local Government (Auckland Council) Act 2009 and gives them much greater power. We need to really understand from the Minister what his policy programme is to make sure that Aucklanders have the right kind of say in local transport decisions if they\u2019re being made at the local board level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to step through what this change, which is new section 4B, inserted by clause 5, means for the old section 12, with the Minister, because, say, the old section 12(3), says, \u201CA local board does not have separate legal standing from the Auckland Council\u201D and that the function there is that it\u2019s not a local authority in and of itself. I\u2019m asking this because, for decisions by Auckland Transport\u2019s transport committee, for example, which makes hundreds of decisions every time it meets, I\u2019m told, on a Friday, those decisions impact region-wide, if those powers are to be divested to the local boards, as this intends, then that will have a pretty significant impact on how local boards operate. That is the natural reading of his new clause 7, which amends section 12(4).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe natural reading of this, and most submitters would think, is that what\u2019s being devolved to local boards here is a new power to determine transport decisions, like where heavy trucks can park. Those decisions, at the moment, are made by local authorities, though, and that\u2019s not what the bill actually says, because these local boards are not becoming a local authority, so they\u2019re not empowered to make bylaws in the way that Auckland Council is at the moment\u2014and its council-controlled organisations are\u2014however, they will be empowered to be able to make those kinds of transport decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat I want to ask the Minister is about the outcome for citizens. If I am a resident in Manurewa, and I live across the road from Anderson Park\u2014as the people I was doorknocking this weekend do\u2014how do I now, under his new law, raise a complaint with Auckland Council that I want heavy vehicles not to be able to park there? Currently, they go to Auckland Council and they raise an issue, and it\u2019s the transport committee at the Auckland Transport level that would make that decision. There are hundreds of decisions like this every week. If it is the local board that is empowered to do that, that makes more sense for the local residents\u2014it makes more sense because they know those representatives and it is a representative who makes that decision. In what we are comparing it to in the old system, there is no elected member who sits on that current committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIs it the case, now, that local boards will be empowered with that kind of decision, and, if it is, are they playing the role of a local authority? Have we got the empowering legislation right so that they can make decisions as if they are the local authority? If that is the case, then it\u2019s fair to ask the Minister: how are we going to provide further resourcing for local boards to do that? Nothing in the legislation allows for provisions for Auckland Council to make that immediate, and yet, immediately, under law, these changes will have effect. How can the person on the street, raising this query with their local board, because now their local board are empowered to do so, under legislation, to make those rules, know who the person to talk to is? Because, actually, there is not a lady in the office who you can go and speak to about this, because they\u2019re not provided to do that kind of work, they don\u2019t make these decisions currently, and they are not local authorities, and yet this is a role that they will be provided with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis really gets to the nub of the problem about the Minister\u2019s new clause 7. It allows for two things at once. It says that nothing in the provision will limit the ability of local boards to exercise that power, and yet they are limited from exercising that power because they\u2019re not local authorities under the new law and they don\u2019t have the resourcing to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhich is it, Minister, is it the old section 12, which says \u201CA local board is not a local authority\u201D, or is it the case that nothing now precludes them from playing the role of the local authority in decisions like that? There are several other kinds of decisions that I\u2019ll ask the Minister to take us through, but this is the first and most obvious one that is not provided for in the law and it\u2019s not clear at what level the local boards will be accountable to the people for these kinds of decisions and how they will undertake those kinds of decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u0022158642f59fc3e41230e7f3058375f2db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022158642f59fc3e41230e7f3058375f2db\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (15:48)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I think, regardless of whether there is a lady or a man in the office, any constituent who has questions about local transport policy, local roading policies, any of that stuff, they\u2019ve got a number of avenues they can go to. They can go to their local board member, in the case of Auckland; they can go to their councillor, they can go to their MP, they could even write to the Minister and seek legislative change. There are plenty of avenues for locals to go and have a say, and, of course, every three years, they get to have a say at the ballot box.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIn terms of the crux of the question, local boards make decisions as though they are the local authority. They act as Auckland Council. That is outlined in clause 7, replacement section 12(4) \u201CNothing in this section limits\u2014(a) the responsibility of a local board to make the decisions of the Auckland Council that are allocated to it in accordance with section 16:\u201D. Section 16 of the Act is the \u201CDecision-making responsibilities of local boards\u201D, which set out what local boards are responsible and democratically accountable for, including carrying out responsibilities that comply with sections 76 to 82, identifying and developing bylaws specifically for local board areas, under section 24, agreements reached with the governing bodies, identifying and communicating interests. It\u2019s all there in the existing statute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u00221646cc3eee20f6775b7c7929bc078189\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221646cc3eee20f6775b7c7929bc078189\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (15:50)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank the Associate Minister of Transport for his earlier response to my question about accountability, but I have to say that I am somewhat concerned at his answer, because my question was about where the accountability lies and if people who are in Auckland, who have an issue, not too dissimilar to what my colleague Miss Williams has touched on, but maybe something different in nature. I asked and offered up some suggestions around perhaps the accountability lay at the ballot box, perhaps at it lay through other processes. But to hear from the Minister that judicial review is the option that\u2019s available to people as a form of accountability, that is extremely concerning. Let\u2019s just step through what that would mean because someone\u2014and let\u2019s be frank about this, not many people in our community are familiar with judicial review because they don\u2019t themselves go through it. Because it is a very timely\u2014well, not necessarily sort of timely, but a very expensive process for people to go through. So I\u2019m interested to hear from the Minister now\u2014and this is not something that came in front of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee about the opportunity for judicial review. I am surprised because this is a Government in the environment space that is making a lot of changes when it comes to people\u2019s ability, through the courts, to be able to access that avenue or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019d be interested in the clarity from the Minister around what he was referring to when he talked about judicial review; people always have the opportunity for judicial review. I think most people who engage with either a local board or the governing body would not have to expect to rely on judicial review if they have an issue or they have something to do with accountability. So I\u2019ll leave that with the Minister. Maybe I just didn\u2019t quite get that as clearly as I should have, but given the Minister has raised it, I\u2019m interested in his response around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI also note that one of the changes that the select committee also made was around some of the terminology. When we\u2019re looking at clauses 7 and 8, there is a lot of kind of change between the words \u201Callocated\u201D and \u201Cconferred\u201D. So, what is basically the difference there between what is allocated and conferred? Would we expect that the transportation options and choices that would be available to either the local board members or the local board as an entity or the new regional land transport committee that\u2019s going to be stood up\u2014where does the conferment come? Where does the allocation come and where does that sit? Given that there have been some changes made in that particular space, it\u2019s important to understand\u2014for consistency\u2014why one can\u2019t be just the terminology used for all of those changes as opposed to separating them out as two separate ones?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u002252bab525886bbe3b4a9c8125ee67ac41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252bab525886bbe3b4a9c8125ee67ac41\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (15:53)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, in the member\u2019s first question, he outlined a whole range of opportunities for ratepayers to hold their decision makers accountable where he\u2019s included things like elections at the ballot box, the annual planning process, advocacy to their local councillors. I added on top of that, I agreed and I said they are all relevant places that you can go in order to hold your decision makers accountable. I added on top of that the underlying resort that one can take, which is judicial review, which is, I guess, the most legal, formal process of challenging a decision made by a decision-making body. That\u2019s obviously one of the last steps you can do, apart from appealing to legislative change, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIn terms of the difference or the removal of the term \u201Callocated to\u201D and replacement with \u201Cconferred on\u201D, my understanding is that\u2019s just essentially a technical drafting change to make it very clear that the local boards must undertake their conferred responsibilities and they may exercise any of the conferred powers under clauses 47A to 47D. I\u2019m advised that it\u2019s a drafting reason rather than any particular change in power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1a8f90b456ed9c0eb8c76b21296735b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1a8f90b456ed9c0eb8c76b21296735b\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa) (15:54)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to ask the Minister to confirm what he said. I think he has said that local boards act as if they are the local authority in setting of the rules such as truck parking. That would be a change in the position that it is currently. I\u2019ll refer him to Land Transport (Road User) Rule 2004, which is the rule which most of these bylaws and other rules are made under, that confers ministerial power to set rules by regulation, and then local authorities are the bodies which are delegated to, within that, to make the rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe question I\u2019m asking here is: is his new clause 7 confusing whether the local board is the local authority, and I think he\u2019s confirmed what that is. So if they are the local\u2014he\u2019s shaking his head. He might need to confirm it because I think he\u2019s saying that the local board is the local authority. So, if the local board is the local authority then, firstly, what is the status of the Vehicle Use and Parking Bylaw 2025 which was set by Auckland Council? Does that continue until local boards set their own rules? Is it the case that the Manurewa Local Board could have a completely different rule for the parking of trucks to the Papakura Local Board? Would that be a sensible situation given that the Land Transport (Road User) Rule, which is the national rule, is quite permissive if all local authorities to set a rule? And yet, you know, one would not imagine that within a metropolitan area for the same carriers, the same providers, a different rule would apply to one side of the street as for the other. That is why Auckland Council has been able to set these rules as a body for all local authorities. What does his new rule mean in that context? If we need one rule for Tangi as the truck driver to park in Papakura and Tangi\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222212bbb8579c3cdadf1e9a0770fc822f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Tangi Utikere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc81ab34732c5d73711835880f7890d7\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Tangi Utikere as the truck driver to park in Papakura, as required to park in Manurewa, then who is the appropriate local authority to do that? I ask that not as a\u2014it\u2019s not frivolous. This is a live issue which Auckland Transport is considering at the moment because there are several business districts who are calling for more stringent rules around this, and they would like for local boards in certain areas to be able to set more stringent rules than the rest of the city. But you can see the values judgement that a Minister is being asked to make here around localisation for certain communities, say in Manurewa where the trucks are parked outside the local schools, and that wouldn\u2019t fly in some central urban suburbs, where residents would vociferously complain, and yet that\u2019s not what happens in some poorer communities where people aren\u2019t as availed of their rights and, as the Minister says, they\u2019re not as likely get in touch with their local board members and their councillors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIsn\u2019t it fair, then, that we would set more stringent rules so that residents can be assured that their sight lines won\u2019t be compromised to their children in the park, or that at night, trucks won\u2019t park in areas that cause near misses and fatalities and crashes. That\u2019s what this issue is about. I think the Minister has said that local boards will now set those rules. That is what some of those businesses associations are asking for. But it\u2019s not necessarily a rule which is going to serve the needs of those commercial users and indeed manufacturers who have different sites around the city and are trying to get their vehicles from one place to another. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not just about trucks. There are several of these rules which have a level of consistency across Auckland, and yet what is being done by new section 12 is a further devolution to local boards, where I think the Minister has said that they will be treated as if they are the local authority for the purpose of the secondary regional legislation, which is the rule that applies nationally. Things like can you sell food that has been made from a home kitchen if you have a certification that is set at a national level, that is a national rule; and then local authorities set the rules around those; things like can you sell alcohol from a corner store in a domestic area\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e47513cfccbf95b589af40bac900fd0d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: As I understand it, this bill is related to transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022724022a24a5a75d32eed6119641937ae\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right, that\u2019s right. But this is about local decision making and how you would enact that. So the question for the Minister is: is what he has said about local authorities and local wards being synonymous because of his change, at his new clause 7(4)(b), the case for all of these rules, and how will they interact with the national rules?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u0022b40efa77f4583a2c4dcc10934c739dd2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b40efa77f4583a2c4dcc10934c739dd2\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (15:59)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Under the existing statute, local boards are able to make decisions as if they are the governing body where they are allocated those decisions and those powers. So, the bill itself, as far as I can tell, doesn\u2019t actually outline which decisions should or should not be made by local boards. They are decisions for the council to allocate to it, in accordance with section 16. All I can say on this matter is that if local boards are given decision-making powers, they do so as if they are the local authority. They act as the Auckland Council when making those decisions because they are part of the Auckland Council, and they have been given the power by the governing body to make those decisions. That\u2019s what the law is currently and what new subparagraph (4) says is that nothing in this section or new section 12 as amended or clause 7 in the bill\u2014nothing in the section limits that ability that already exists currently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232632704a2594ee1b96e617d06beae80\u0022 data-id=\u002232dfd4f78350d891c0371499979c2ab5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232632704a2594ee1b96e617d06beae80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232dfd4f78350d891c0371499979c2ab5\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert) (16:00)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I am going to ask you some specific questions about the streets that are going to be around the Eden Park precinct. The Eden Park precinct belongs in Part 2, but my understanding is the streets that surround that will be in this part. They are part of the same things that Arena Williams is talking about because they are the streets that the local board will have determination over.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI had a meeting the other day with the residents in that area and it\u2019s actually the outer streets outside of the traffic precinct that have issues because there isn\u2019t the same control. My understanding is the proposal here is that that control over the area that is controlled traffic\u2014and I\u2019ll ask some questions about what the Eden Park precinct contains in the later part\u2014but beyond that, we have an area that\u2019s going to have control of the local board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI would like the Minister to confirm that those streets that are beyond it will be controlled by the local board and what assurance people can be given that there will be communication between the group that is controlling the area of traffic management, which is smaller, with the local board, because if the local board is making those decisions, it\u2019s going to have an impact in terms of what happens next.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFor example, I\u2019d like to know what discussions there will be and what freedom there is to make rules over parking in those areas. What I\u2019m told by residents is you\u2019ve got a spillover effect where people can\u2019t park within the zone and so they park just out of it, and so we get all these issues just out of the zone where people park on the curbs and it makes it really a very different thing to live in those streets. I\u2019m not sure what those arrangements are between the two groups or does the local board simply have to react? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThen my last question on this is really about conflicts of interest. I love the idea of local boards having more control over roads. I think it\u2019s a really sound one. But what I want to know is: what happens when you have people with a conflict of interest in terms of determining what happens to a local street? For example, the local board member themselves might live in that street. That might be an obvious one that\u2019s dealt with, but it\u2019s more about the issue of people having conflicts that are about the connections. Now, they\u2019re naturally going to have connections in those areas. It\u2019s the nature of what they\u2019re doing; they\u2019re local. But what kinds of protections are there around that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, we\u2019ve heard Tangi Utikere talk about the issue over judicial review. Obviously, that whole concept is based on something that\u2019s a really high watermark in terms of appeal. So what is the story here in terms of the normal navigation of conflicts of interests, for example, if your grandfather lives in the street, if your auntie lives in the street, or your best friend lives on the street, and you are making decisions about what happens in those situations? Thank you. I\u2019d really like the answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u002287982acce75decefb07355a6edd616db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287982acce75decefb07355a6edd616db\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (16:03)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. If the member goes to new section 48, inserted by clause 14\u2014well, it\u2019s not technically new in some pieces. But anyway, section 48 is the section which says that the council must develop Auckland roading classification framework. Within that framework will be the roads and areas that local boards will or will not be responsible for. The bill doesn\u2019t set those decisions; that\u2019s up to the council when they develop the roading classification framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThen just on the questions of conflicts of interests, in the same clause\u00A014, at new\u00A0section\u00A040(a), there\u2019s a conflicts of interest section, which states that Schedule\u00A03 of the Act applies to the Auckland Regional Transport Committee. When any conflicts do arise, both Schedule 3 applies but also the existing policies and procedures that the Auckland Council would have for managing conflicts generally would also apply. There\u2019s nothing really, I think, in the bill which would address that apart from the obvious robust and thorough processes that the leadership of Auckland Council already undertakes to manage the conflicts of interest with arise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u0022390958ce1aaa3866a96bf475d9b46c78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022390958ce1aaa3866a96bf475d9b46c78\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa) (16:04)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. As the Minister will know, some of these devolution powers to the local board\u2014look, they are welcomed by all parties in Parliament and many stakeholders outside of it. The ability of local boards to exercise power in his new section 4B, inserted by clause 5\u2014has he managed to capture the frustration of Aucklanders that infringement fees for land transport offences are set under the Land Transport (Offences and Penalties) Regulations 1999 and not at the council level or at the local board level? Is it possible for the conferment of powers under those rules to local boards to set locally relevant fees for parking infringements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe problem here is huge in that Aucklanders have fees\u2014for instance, $100 for inconsiderate parking. There were 7,000 traffic incidents concerning heavy vehicle parking in the Wiri Business Association\u2019s district alone, including two fatalities last year. That is serious, and yet the top infringement fee is $100. The call for much of this devolution was based on the lack of local accountability for things like fees. Has the Minister managed, through his new section 4B, to include infringement powers as something that Aucklanders can have a say on through their local boards?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u00226929dd156ac0b8be3febab5d79811c39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226929dd156ac0b8be3febab5d79811c39\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (16:06)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll seek some advice on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6aeb4f366badc2e6aea681086d664d4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister has just indicated he\u2019s seeking some advice. I\u2019m going to call Arena Williams, but I will also say at this time that Part 1 is quite small, so we want to hone in on that from here on in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u0022bdb13c195f25f3b33fec0721595a9c8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bdb13c195f25f3b33fec0721595a9c8d\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa) (16:06)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I also want to refer the Minister to the purposes for local boards in the original legislation. Those are at clauses 152, 153, and 157. They specifically mention those things that the local authorities can set rules around. These also include things like the discharge of pollutants into the environment and things like when you are fixing a heavy truck on a local road or on a national highway. The rules are different, but for different areas, they are resulting in the flow-off of pollutants through fixing vehicles into, say, the Manukau Harbour, which is a significant issue for local residents and is a continuing source of frustration for Aucklanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EHas the Minister given some thought to the way that local environmental protections for road users will be something that local boards can have a say on? Why is it the case that over the last 10 years of the Auckland super-city, when local areas have been raising these issues like run-off into local streams and local harbours, local boards will seemingly not be able to be devolved powers to set locally relevant rules and solutions to these hazards? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhen you have the regular practice of some truck operators in Wiri fixing trucks on the side of the street and not only taking up the road space, which they can be fined for as a dangerous use of the road, but they are also emitting oil and other run-off straight into the drains\u2014which is not caught; it flows straight into the Manukau Harbour\u2014why is it that the local board can\u2019t step in when residents are raising these issues? The Wiri Business Association has petitioned Auckland Transport about this. Auckland Transport says that they need a consistent rule around the city, but that is something that has been raised consistently over the last 10 years and hasn\u2019t been able to be implemented because it doesn\u2019t fit for the rest of the city.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBecause this isn\u2019t a huge problem for the residents in rest of the city, is it the case that with local boards expecting to receive more power because of the result of this legislation, that they will, in fact, be stymied once again? For people who are looking at this legislation and hailing it as a big step forward for Aucklanders and their democratic control over their elected members and their transport functions, will they once again see that actually things that matter to them like where people can park, like the infringements that can be levied against people who park inconsiderately and cause safety hazards, and to those people who would pour pollutants down the drain because of fixing their vehicles in the wrong kind of way\u2014will all of that actually not be devolved to local boards? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESo we see this increase on expectations of local boards once again undermining people\u2019s faith in their local democracy and seeing more and more of a stepping back from the need to vote in their local democratic elections and their need for local board members to be accountable to the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u0022905a881eba48c8fd90b4964abb49f124\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022905a881eba48c8fd90b4964abb49f124\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (16:09)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ve been helpfully advised that if we dig all the way through the bill to Schedule 2, and we look to what will be Schedule 4 in the Act, that lists the local board\u2019s powers, functions, and responsibilities in relation to local roads and collector roads. Hopefully, that will answer most of the member\u2019s questions about what local boards will have the power, function, or responsibility to do. It\u2019s on page 46 and 47 of the bill, for reference. I\u2019m advised that does not include fees. Fees are set by the governing body, not local boards, and they are subject to, obviously, the primary legislative constraints on that as well. As far as I can tell, unless there\u2019s some clever interpretation of those powers in Schedule 4, it would not include discharge of pollutants into the environment. Of course, those are all valid arguments to make about how much you devolve power to local boards, particularly in Auckland. I\u2019m sure that many Aucklanders would agree with some of it and disagree with some of it, but in this instance, we\u2019re talking about particular transport responsibilities. With these changes, local boards will have some powers to make some decisions around transport-related issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d0fc1789b79e7511c71f75aae49e294\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Tangi Utikere\u2014one more specific question on this part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u0022db5692f18b022fc7874c74d15348010b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db5692f18b022fc7874c74d15348010b\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (16:10)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Thank you, Madam Chair, and I take your direction in terms of where we\u2019re heading. I want to ask the Minister a very tight question, which is about clause 8. It is in relation to the responsibilities and the functions that are conferred to a local board, and they relate to new sections 47A to 47D, which we\u2019ll get to in the next part. It seems to me that there are often funding implications and resourcing implications for any decision that a local board may take, so a very quick question to the Minister is: is he satisfied that the ability for the local boards to be able to be responsive to their communities in making these decisions? Does he have any concerns about the lack of resourcing or empowerment of the local boards to be able to actually go ahead and deliver that? If we\u2019re looking at maintaining or preserving some form of regional coherence as a structure with the regional land transport committee in place but also enhancing local responsiveness, does he have any concern that decisions will be driven around transport to do with an inability for the local board to receive adequate resourcing from the governing body?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u0022521cba07e6231555aea6bcf29709476e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022521cba07e6231555aea6bcf29709476e\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (16:12)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I don\u2019t have any concerns. I haven\u2019t had any concerns raised with me. With the excellent leadership of Auckland Council, I\u2019m sure they\u2019ll maintain a close eye on their rates and how they\u2019re spent appropriately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222a5e552f040a83cd47893021aff97e2d\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u00229f95680f4aa454ebd9d22919711ebd33\u0022\u003EPart 2 Amendments to Part 4\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ab2de3e5102f332e8d6b2dda7d92534\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 2. Part 2 is the debate on clauses 12 to 14, amendments to Part 4 of the principal Act. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u00221754131380ce5338f1d8fff84e40423a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221754131380ce5338f1d8fff84e40423a\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (16:12)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, this is really the meaty part of this bill, which outlines all the different steps that need to be taken in terms of appointments and all of those sorts of things\u2014how much these members will get paid and who decides and who\u2019s going to chair and all those sorts of things. The Transport and Infrastructure Committee spent a lot of time working through these particular issues, so I want to just move to the first question that I have, which is in relation to new section 38A. This is still within clause 14, because clause 14 talks about the fact that all of the items contained from 38 onwards are effectively uncertain. This is the functions and the membership of the Auckland Regional Transport Committee, and this is where a lot of the work will be undertaken in terms of setting direction and guidance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, new section 38A talks about the functions of that particular committee that is going to be stood up. We support the standing up of that committee; it will provide consistency across the country in terms of regional transport committees. The function of this committee, first and foremost, is to prepare what is a 30-year transport plan under section 42. It\u2019s interesting that in the Auckland regional deal that\u2019s been announced, they talk about the 30-year transport plan\u2014which I don\u2019t think many people were surprised about, because it\u2019s already on the agenda and it is effectively business as usual. One of the responsibilities that is outlined here is not just preparing that transport plan over the 30-year horizon but also monitoring the delivery of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe question for the Minister is: can he confirm to the committee that the regional transport committee is actually intended to take a long-term stable view beyond electoral cycles? What concerns might the Minister have around chopping and changing potentially every three years if there is a change of Government or a change in membership at a local government level. What does he see as that long-term stability in terms of that 30-year transport plan, and how will our local decision makers be able to, in his mind, feed into the development of what is going to be a pretty significant and important plan? How is it that the standing-up of this committee will look to align the sense of Government investment through the 30-year plan? It is largely a joint initiative between local Aucklanders and central government by way of the Minister of Transport\u2019s appointees to this committee. How does that improve the alignment of that investment and the priorities and also meet Auckland\u2019s growth needs, which are obviously pretty important?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat we see in new section 38A(d) is actually just a move away from just saying, \u201CWell look, what this committee\u2019s going to do is it\u2019s going to undertake all the functions.\u201D, but, actually, it narrows it down to transport responsibilities, duties, functions, or powers. Again, is this intended to be a catch-all opportunity to ensure that the regional transport committee can do what it needs to? Or is that going to compromise any particular aspects that the committee, over a 30-year horizon\u2014albeit, the expectation is there would be iterative approaches to planning, and that\u2019s obviously to meet the changing demographics and the changing needs that would arise in Auckland. Is he comfortable that those changes to be made by the committee are able to deliver on that? Also, does he have any concerns that the approach that\u2019s been amended by the committee is actually just to focus on transport functions rather than strategic transport functions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u002200e78187164033c7280fa324863b453a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200e78187164033c7280fa324863b453a\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (16:17)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. In regards to whether or not the Auckland Regional Transport Committee (ARTC) should have a long-term view beyond political cycles, I think there\u2019s an agreement across the country that when it comes to infrastructure, critical transport infrastructure, we need to take a long-term view of these things. There is a lengthy number of new sections that will be in the Act and that outline specifically what this could look like, and I will draw the committee\u2019s attention to, for example, Subpart 2. We\u2019re still in clause 14, but we\u2019re in new Subpart 2: new section 42 outlines a 30-year transport plan must be prepared; 42A the publication of it; 42B the preparation; 42C outlines the content. The statute itself creates some guard rails for the content this plan needs to contain. It also outlines who must be consulted and who must agree on it. For example, in 42B(1)(a), \u201Cthe ARTC must\u2014seek direction from the Ministry of Transport and the mayor;\u201D, so there is a balance between a long-term approach to this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAlso, we live in a democratic country, and those who are elected to make change or to move the country in a different direction should be entitled to do so within the statutory guard rails that we put in place. I think, with the regular free and fair elections that we have, that people can reflect the democratic will of the public, then these long-term plans are a good thing. It\u2019s balanced against some of the stricter statutory guidelines in place. For example, there was a point in here, 42C(e), outlining the \u201Cdetailed investment priorities for the first 10 years of the period covered by the plan:\u201D. I think, on the one hand, we want to reflect the will of the Government or the council of the day\u2014that being the voters, ratepayers, taxpayers of the day. On the other hand, we want to have some certainty in forecasting over a long-term period about the kinds of critical infrastructure projects we believe in and then we are going to invest in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think the committee meets a pretty good balance for them both, and I think the member asked and answered his own question in and around the amendment made to 38A(d), which is essentially to provide\u2014my reading of the new subsection, a relatively wide catch-all in and around transport responsibilities, duties, functions, or powers that the Auckland may delegate to it, and leave the, I guess, wider strategy to the elected officials, the governing body itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022440a125e85954bae9f5d470b7551e4f3\u0022 data-id=\u002287271d92e9688bedd8bb5475746ae43e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022440a125e85954bae9f5d470b7551e4f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287271d92e9688bedd8bb5475746ae43e\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT) (16:19)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Minister, for that contribution. It was good to hear you outline the importance of democratic decision making in these 30-year plans in such a way as being outlined in the entire purpose of this bill: providing local accountability to the way Auckland\u2019s roads and roading designers and the feedback that people who are road users have on that, and bringing that to local decision making. So we have, in here, a 30-year transport plan, which is quite core to what we\u2019re doing here today, Minister, and it\u2019s got direction. So the purpose of the plan is to align the Government and the council\u2019s priorities and set a strategic direction. The plan must promote the following objectives\u2014and there are three listed here\u2014productivity and economic growth, the safe and rapid movement of people and goods, and efficient asset management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere is a part in there that I have an Amendment Paper on, which I\u2019d like to draw your attention to, which is that the 30-year transport plan in Auckland must seek direction from the Minister of Transport and the Mayor. That seems fair enough. But there is, in the co-design of the plan, one more section, which is \u201Cestablish and maintain processes for M\u0101ori\u201D\u2014parentheses nondescript in this particular piece of legislation\u2014\u201Cto contribute to the development and preparation of the plan.\u201D Minister, as the select committee noted, there are other interested groups who have a large amount of interest in the way the transport plan in Auckland works. The select committee had listed a couple here: businesses, the freight sector, and general road users. I\u2019d add to that core nodes in New Zealand\u2019s connection to the world for our economic and trade relationships, which is the Port of Auckland. So these are prime users of the roads. The transport network really, really matters, you would think, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESo if there was going to be a move beyond the democratic accountability that is being talked about here, away from just the Minister of Transport and the Mayor to M\u0101ori, nondescript, in this particular bill, I would recommend, Minister, that you adopt my Amendment Paper, which would edit clause 14, new section 42B, so it was a bit simpler\u2014it would only be one part; there wouldn\u2019t be a paragraph (a) and a (b). And it would say, \u201C(1) When preparing a 30-year transport plan for Auckland, the ARTC must seek direction from the Minister of Transport and the mayor.\u201D, and that\u2019s where it ends right there. Because, at the end of the day, the design needs to be democratic, and co-design is but a species of co-governance, Minister. I put it to you that this Amendment Paper would solve that problem. That you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u002239f75877051fa3c2c96cc2dbaf932670\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239f75877051fa3c2c96cc2dbaf932670\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa) (16:22)\u003C/span\u003E: The ACT Party has one trick: they\u2019ve found \u201CM\u0101ori\u201D in the legislation and they want to take it out. We will not be supporting that amendment, because that is a silly amendment. Not content with new section 42(3), inserted by clause 14, which, effectively, enshrines three political objectives that would usually be found in a Government policy statement (GPS) in the legislation, which is a very unusual move for the Government\u2014and I will invite the Minister to explain why he is lifting up his three values-based judgments from the GPS, which are, frankly, the wrong values, but they are his values, and he has put them into primary legislation here, which will be difficult for a future Government to change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBecause, I think, when you ask most Aucklanders, \u201CWhat kind of transport system would you want?\u201D They would say, \u201CI want less congestion. I want to get home to my family.\u201D or \u201CI\u2019m a tradie and I want to do my jobs faster.\u201D And they would say, \u201CI want a grown-up city that has good transport from the airport to the rest of the city. I want to live in a place where there is rapid transit and it is quick and it is cheap.\u201D That is not what the values here say. It says in new section 42(3)(a), inserted by clause 14, that the plan must promote \u201Cproductivity and economic growth:\u201D. Does our transport system provide for a productive and economic city? No. But the key problem here that we should be trying to address, both long-term and in the medium-term, is congestion. Does this bill have anything that reduces congestion in it? Absolutely not. It has prioritised three statements from some neoliberalism textbook that Cameron Luxton found at the back of his shelf. The third is, \u201C(c) efficient asset management.\u201D That is not speaking to the aspirations of Aucklanders about the kind of transport and roading systems that we need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe need to build roads for our communities to get around, we need a bus system that works for people, and we need a train system that works for people. Those are not the hopes and dreams of Aucklanders that have been reflected here in the primary legislation. It\u2019s one thing to have a GPS which sets out what the National Party thinks is significant, which is roads, but it is quite another thing to put it in this legislation. I would invite the Minister to comment on that before he disavows the Committee of any notion that he\u2019ll be voting for the amendment that Cameron Luxton has put up, I hope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to jump back\u2014Madam Chair, because we are going to move through this section in an orderly fashion\u2014to the appointments of members by the Minister. I need some guidance from the Minister here, because what assurance can Aucklanders have that there will be a long-term view taken by these ministerial appointments of the kind of skills that Aucklanders can expect around the table when the Government is saying different things about its transport priority?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EYesterday, with the fuel crisis as the rationale, the Government announced an intention to allow heavier vehicles on New Zealand\u2019s roads. That includes letting freight trucks carry heavier loads and giving them more access on the roading network more of the time. This is ostensibly to boost fuel efficiency, but at the same time, the same Government is running a campaign run by the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority about fuel-saving advice for stretching a tank by up to 20 percent. They are telling New Zealanders and spending New Zealanders\u2019 money on a campaign about more fuel efficiency and about lightening the load by removing roof racks. The irony will not be lost on most Aucklanders, when they see a Government that can\u2019t work out what its own priorities for transport are, let alone the priorities in the medium or the long term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EHow can Aucklanders be assured that this new section 38F, inserted by clause 14, does not allow the Minister of Transport to appoint ministerial representatives who are straight from the freight and trucking industries, as the ACT member asked for particular consultation rights for those industries? How can the Government say that it is going to have a long-term view of who is appointed around the table, when Aucklanders might have two or three members appointed by the Minister who will come from backgrounds and have professional expertise in trucking and freight, when that is not the aspiration of most Aucklanders for a fair and efficient transport system that reduces congestion over the long term and invests more in transport solutions which get people home to their kids faster?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd012eb6899129be4e015cbaccf87887\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd012eb6899129be4e015cbaccf87887\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (16:27)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ve had a look at the so-called values in new section 42(3)(a), (b), and (c), inserted by clause 14, which actually says, \u201CA plan must promote the following objectives:\u201D and it doesn\u2019t outline a values set in this section. Those objectives are, \u201C(a) productivity and economic growth: (b) the safe and rapid movement of people and goods: (c) efficient asset management.\u201D There\u2019s nothing, I think, in those objectives that would preclude a focus or an emphasis on public transport, a focus or an emphasis on mass rapid transport, a focus and emphasis on safety, on road, rail, light rail\u2014whether it be on paper or physically on the ground. So I would just encourage all members to look at the actual text of the bill we are putting in place and not to go too far with imprinting their own values on to that text, and just read it in plain English, as has been passed by the Parliament of the day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ENow, when it comes to the appointment of individuals to the Auckland Regional Transport Committee (ARTC), the bill outlines the appointment process, the length of term, their duties, etc. But the key thing is that these individuals will be bound by their obligations under the Act. The Act says that part of their obligations is to prepare a 30-year transport plan for Auckland. Now, if the best people or best person or individual to be appointed to a committee at a particular time at a particular place is someone who has expertise in the roading, transport, logistics, trucking, freight sector, then nothing in the legislation should preclude that; in the same way that nothing in the legislation should preclude someone who might have expertise in multimodal transport or\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022014d21cf481084b12cda500cf6f363a2\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Te ao M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e4db29284e9c1287a12145ca433563d\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER\u003C/span\u003E: Te ao M\u0101ori or any other demographic, cultural input if that was relevant to promoting the following objectives on productivity and economic growth, the safe and rapid movement of people and goods, and effective and efficient asset management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019ve got the utmost faith in those making these appointments; that they will appoint the right people to the positions, but we\u2019re not going to be outlining in the statute a green list or a red list of which particular background or profession you should or should not have when entering this process. It\u2019s hard enough, I think, as it is, to find highly skilled, capable people with the time to sit on public entities already, without limiting it to those groups of people who come from a particular favoured industry or background, so we won\u2019t be doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248ce26e54d83406399b875df20400dec\u0022 data-id=\u0022935d060a2e05de5cc40886c45255f24b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248ce26e54d83406399b875df20400dec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022935d060a2e05de5cc40886c45255f24b\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First) (16:29)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m a bit surprised to hear some of the questions coming from the Opposition, because those particular things that I\u2019ve been hearing are things that could have been traversed, but were not traversed, at select committee. I am a bit concerned about those questions, but the question that I want to pursue is, as Cam Luxton has raised in his amendment, the issue of co-design and consultation with \u201CM\u0101ori\u201D\u2014it\u2019s not \u201Ciwi\u201D; the word is \u201CM\u0101ori\u201D\u2014and the practicality of that. As you see in the select committee report-back, some of us were concerned about that. I am going to explain why, and I really would like the Minister\u2019s response to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis is about a new activity. It\u2019s about the 30-year transport plan. It\u2019s a new thing, and in this new activity we are saying there needs to be, as Cam Luxton has said, consultation with the mayor, with the Minister, and with M\u0101ori. Now, given we are told that roughly one in five New Zealanders has some element of M\u0101ori whakapapa, that means that one in five - odd Aucklanders is likely to have some M\u0101ori whakapapa. That means you are looking at something in excess of 250,000, probably getting closer to 300,000, and this bill then says you need to consult in the design\u2014the design\u2014of the 30-year transport plan. This is not in the consultation about the 30-year transport plan\u2014because that\u2019s in there as well. We do the design first. Then we do the engagement on that design, when we consult with the wider public, etc. In the design of that, you are required to identify who are M\u0101ori and to have a consultation with, roughly, one-fifth\u201420 percent\u2014of your population. Now, I ask you whether that is practical, and whether that is a reasonable thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBear in mind that this is a new responsibility. It\u2019s not that we\u2019re taking anything away; it\u2019s a new responsibility which is being established. I would say, Madam Chair\u2014Mr Chair now, because you\u2019ve changed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294767f3e1446dda5f197776ce5362fd1\u0022\u003EHon Member: \u003C/span\u003EHa, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248ce26e54d83406399b875df20400dec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c48db0a8299ca8097efa907b29010b24\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER\u003C/span\u003E: The Chair has changed while I\u2019ve been speaking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221dd28cc85a2818aa67c812e931228f7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The Chair knows what you mean, Mr Foster.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248ce26e54d83406399b875df20400dec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dab0620eab6bbca59212132c2e7a7aee\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER\u003C/span\u003E: There is an issue of practicality there, as I said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI would also like to draw the Minister\u2019s attention to some of the things we have in our coalition agreements, which are sometimes referred to. One of those, between the National Party and the New Zealand First Party, is that the coalition Government will defend the principle that New Zealanders are equal before the law, with the same rights and obligations, and with the guarantee of privileges and responsibilities of equal citizenship in New Zealand. It seems, to me, that we should be treating everybody equally, and that\u2019s what the coalition agreement between New Zealand First and National says. Then, in the coalition agreement between all three parties, there is the element there, which is pro-democracy, to uphold the principles of liberal democracy, including equal citizenship, parliamentary sovereignty, and the rule of law and property rights, especially with respect to interpreting the Treaty of Waitangi. I am really interested in how this fits with those agreements within our coalition Government, because, as I said, it\u2019s a new activity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe one thing we were advised\u2014this is the second time this particular thing has come up in front of the committee; the first time, we didn\u2019t do anything we it, but this time there is an amendment to do something with it\u2014is that this comes from the Land Transport Management Act 2003. It\u2019s an Act that has been around for 23 years, and it has just been put in there. The question is whether it should have been put in there, whether it\u2019s a practical thing to do, and, also, whether it\u2019s a fair and reasonable thing. As the select committee observed, we didn\u2019t say to other people who are really materially involved in the transport system, the people who are moving freight, etc.\u2014they don\u2019t get a look-in at that stage. They only get a look-in when they are consulted. In fact, as we heard from the Opposition, what do most people want? They want the ability to be able to get around their city. They want\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022440a125e85954bae9f5d470b7551e4f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209f4604eb7886e7694ecaad48b2386c0\u0022\u003ECameron Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: No congestion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248ce26e54d83406399b875df20400dec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc47eefea2aecd57ea54dd988eb126dc\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER\u003C/span\u003E: They want no congestion. They want to be able to use a good public transport system. Those things affect all of us. They affect all people, regardless of whether they are M\u0101ori or whether they are non-M\u0101ori. The question, Minister, is why it is that, at the moment, it appears, you are not supporting this amendment, because it would be consistent with the coalition agreement to support the amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u002249b028ed84a9dc6cb3daa77c59e038bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249b028ed84a9dc6cb3daa77c59e038bb\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (16:34)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. One of the interesting things that the Minister referred to was multi-modal representation, potentially\u2014rail representation, and the like. Now, the Auckland Regional Transport Committee that this bill establishes will have a mix of voting members and non-voting members, and the non-voting members are limited in number, to a total of three, and that\u2019s contained in sections 38D, E, and F. The non-voting members are specifically identified as either appointed by the New Zealand Transport Agency\u2013\u2014Waka Kotahi\u2014or by KiwiRail or by the transport council-controlled organisation. The question for the Minister is: is he satisfied, given the changing dynamics of transportation in this country, and indeed around the world, that that descriptor futureproofs the 30-year horizon? We\u2019re talking about individuals who, as a collective, will be responsible for monitoring the delivery, after preparing it, of a 30-year horizon. Is he satisfied that the definition there is not too discreet to avoid what might come in the future?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOften when we have these committees that get stood up, there are often opportunities to co-opt. Whether we\u2019re talking about school boards or local government, there are certainly a number of committee opportunities where the governing body or the council or a committee can co-opt members where there is a lack of skill or expertise. Now, this particular bill, under new section 41D, identifies the fact that this committee will be required to adopt a set of standing orders. That can identify whether an entity can co-opt for that purpose, so maybe that\u2019s what this particular committee could do. However, in front of the Parliament at the moment is another bill\u2014and why I\u2019m referring to this is relevant\u2014the Local Government (System Improvements) Amendment Bill. If that bill is passed, as currently recommended by the committee by majority, that would allow for a consistent set of standing orders that would apply across local government. My question for the Minister is: whilst Part 2, specifically new section 41D, under clause 14, talks about the fact that the Auckland Regional Transport Committee must adopt a set of standing orders, where does that sit if the Government\u2019s other piece of legislation is passed? Will a consistent set of standing orders override this provision, or will this provision stand and, effectively, trump any form of consistent set of standing orders that the bill that I mentioned would actually present?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis is a very important point. It wasn\u2019t actually covered by the select committee, but when we\u2019re talking about standing orders, and members of this committee are obviously familiar with that as well, where does the mechanism in this bill align? There\u2019s a possibility that the Local Government (System Improvements) Amendment Bill may not pass, but in circumstances where it does, is this a stand-alone piece of legislation that will not be overridden by one consistent set of standing orders that might apply within local government. This is relevant, because we are talking about a bill that is seeking to amend the Local Government Act, just like the system improvements bill is also seeking to override this. It may be that the Minister needs to seek advice on that. It is something the select committee at the time did not turn its mind to, but it will be important. It might be, if there\u2019s a risk that a non-bespoke set of standing orders can\u2019t effectively exist, that there might need to be some change in this particular space. I\u2019ll leave that with the Minister, and I\u2019ve got a couple of other points.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9024c96be9095cb2185e471d759faa5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9024c96be9095cb2185e471d759faa5\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (16:38)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Actually, it\u2019s quite practically impossible to say whether something applies if another piece of law does or does not pass. This bill applies for the Auckland Regional Transport Committee to adopt a set of standing orders for the conduct of its meetings and those of its subcommittees. If the subsequent piece of law that the member Tangi Utikere referred to passes and overrides those standing orders, and provides a consistent set of standing orders, then it overrides those standing orders. If it doesn\u2019t override those standing orders, it doesn\u2019t override those standing orders. It\u2019s an impossible question to answer, because you\u2019re talking about a bill that is before the House and that hasn\u2019t passed and the final form of which is unknown. All I can say is that, if a subsequent piece of legislation says there is to be a consistent set of standing orders that overrides other standing orders, it will override them. If the subsequent bill does not provide that, it will not override them. That\u2019s about as much as I can say in terms of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e66329e431ea47019b41524c6ef2954a\u0022 data-id=\u002273fd7df960144d72d0206eb0b13b92f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e66329e431ea47019b41524c6ef2954a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273fd7df960144d72d0206eb0b13b92f9\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN (Green) (16:39)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I have got some questions about the membership of the Auckland Regional Transport Committee. While I was on the Transport and Infrastructure Committee and I generally support the direction, I just wanted to tease out some of what I would say were apparent inconsistencies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMuch has been said by this Government about localism and much has been said about this bill giving Auckland the say over transport that Auckland wants, but when I actually look at the voting members, it has potential for a tie with no tiebreaker in that there are three appointed by the Minister, three appointed by the mayor\u2014and we understand that already that power of the mayor is quite different from other councils around the country\u2014and then they\u2019ve got to agree on the chairperson. I\u2019m interested in what happens if there is a radically different either central government or local government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAt what point are there opportunities to replace those people? Do they all get replaced at once, is there opportunity, perhaps, to change the chair earlier than their term would otherwise dictate, and how does this potential tension between the previous Government\u2019s appointment of a chair and the new Government\u2014it won\u2019t get much done before November with this committee, but whoever. There must be some opportunity, or will that only be\u2014as was referred to earlier\u2014through the new Government setting a different Government policy statement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe other area that I was interested in is the appointment of members. I don\u2019t think we raised it at select committee, but it\u2019s occurred to me since, with the very interesting Infrastructure Commission report and the acknowledgment, I think, from both sides of the House that the Infrastructure Commission has got a much more serious role to play in having some common path forward so that we don\u2019t waste so much money starting things but not finishing them. It is so that things don\u2019t get thrown out, whether it\u2019s the Auckland rail or the harbour bridge or a cycle path alongside a motorway\u2014whatever\u2014and they\u2019re not thrown out just because it was the other side that started them. I\u2019d be interested to see how the Minister sees the input of the Infrastructure Commission into the Auckland Regional Transport Committee. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u0022f12d19c1ab1715eb8f808ec060ee81d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f12d19c1ab1715eb8f808ec060ee81d9\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (16:42)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d encourage the member, if she would like this committee to see some action before November, that we should hurry along and get this bill passed into law as quickly as possible. But in regard to her question, I\u2019ll just refer to clause 14 again and the provisions around new section 38D, which outlines the membership\u2014which the member referred to\u2014which is the chairperson, and then three members appointed by the Minister and three members appointed by the mayor. The chairperson is jointly appointed under new section 38E, and the terms of those offices are under new section 38G.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew section 39A is the provision around the removal of members, and I\u2019ll note that in regard to the chairperson: \u201C(1) The mayor and the Minister of Transport may, jointly, at any time and entirely at their discretion, remove the chairperson of the ARTC from office.\u201D Then, when it comes to the Minister of Transport\u2019s appointments, under subsection (2), the Minister, at their discretion, may remove a ministerial appointee at any time and at their discretion, from office. As well, there is subsection (3): \u201CThe mayor may, at any time and entirely at the mayor\u2019s discretion, remove a mayoral appointee from office.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, the member raises relatively valid concerns about politicisation of appointments, but this process happens across a myriad of boards and entities\u2014thousands of them, actually\u2014across the country. There are processes that are followed through, whether that\u2019s through a Cabinet appointment or whether it\u2019s through a mayoral appointment, and, on the whole, I think both sides of the House would agree that it\u2019s worked generally quite well over the years. I would just look to the appointment processes that are in the statute and have some faith in our elected representatives to do the right thing because, ultimately, that\u2019s what we elect them for, and if we weren\u2019t all here to do the right thing, then we should probably walk out the door and go get another job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u00226937792e7055d592dccb76d5ff1bbe6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226937792e7055d592dccb76d5ff1bbe6f\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa) (16:44)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I have some further questions on the functions of the Auckland Regional Transport Committee (ARTC) in relation to the 30-year transport plan. As my colleague Tangi Utikere has said, this was well canvassed. There was no surprise around the introduction of this, but there will be some confusion about what it actually is. Minister, is this plan a different sort of instrument to the Government policy statement (GPS)? Is it a planning instrument? Does it give rise to secondary legislation? What is it, and why is the Auckland Regional Transport Committee tasked with preparing the plan but its objectives are set by Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhy is it that its objectives have been lifted up into this new section 42(3) here in clause 14 when we have a new body which is tasked with responding to the needs of Aucklanders, and it has a mechanism for the Minister to remain closely involved in not only the production of the plan but to receive regular reporting from that body? Why is it necessary, then, for the Government to have such a level of central planning as to impose on Aucklanders the three objectives there? Would he not consider then, if those objectives are going to be imposed on Aucklanders, the insertion of a new subsection (3)(aa) that would read \u201Creducing congestion\u201D as one of the objectives of that plan, given that most Aucklanders tell pollsters and local politicians alike that congestion is their number one problem in Auckland\u2019s transport system, and they say that that is what they\u2019d like politicians to be focused on\u2014elected members\u2014and the bureaucrats who support them to do that work in order to respond to the needs of Aucklanders? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe reason I\u2019ve asked the question about why the objectives have been set here is because it is an unusual thing. This isn\u2019t a GPS, this isn\u2019t an ordinary planning instrument, and its objectives have been set in the primary legislation, which is difficult to change later on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI also wanted to ask him a different question, which is about the role of local boards in contributing to the plan. That\u2019s not set out at the primary legislative level, but, as we know, I think that all parties in this House support having more local democracy in the planning and governance for Auckland\u2019s transport system. If that is to be achieved, why is it that there is not further guidance in primary legislation about how the ARTC is to give effect to the aspiration of local boards for their local transport systems? Why is it that they don\u2019t have an enshrined mechanism to input into the design of the wider plan, given that we know that local inconsistencies will come up if they have complete free reign to operate as local authorities, as the Minister alluded to in his answer to my previous questions in Part 1. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI also want to ask him about this. There\u2019s been an addition in new section 42C in clause\u00A014. I\u2019m at the bottom of page 16, and it\u2019s paragraph (g). It says that the 30-year transport plan for Auckland must include \u201Cthe likely sources of funding.\u201D I want to ask him how this interacts with the GPS. Usually, local authorities would set out their funding intentions in quite strictly formalised ways, and their funding options are either their rates and their rating income\u2014and that is hotly debated and contested by the people they represent\u2014or through funding from central government, which is provided for in the design of the plan and the appointment is made at the committee level by the Minister. But this is a new thing. What power does the Minister envision for ARTC to canvass and then consult on its intentions for other sorts of funding? Does this allow for the ARTC, for instance, to canvass its intention to sell off some transport assets and to use the proceeds of those to buy other transport assets? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat would usually be contested through the budget. It is a very well-understood process and it is a process which is governed by the Local Government Act and Auckland Council\u2019s particular legislation, but is this a different mechanism by which Auckland Council can canvass different sorts of uses of its assets? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EUsually, if those decisions around funding sources are going to be, say, the levying or tolling of certain routes, the how and why of that is also a well-established process of consultation, and then they are creatures of primary legislation and those kinds of arrangements. Is this a different route for the Auckland Regional Transport Committee to be able to, effectively, consult on and then gain public support for some sort of system which is not provided for in another piece of legislation? Minister, I\u2019d welcome your advice on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u0022a96ef91bc2b731c7b2ee968022f10120\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a96ef91bc2b731c7b2ee968022f10120\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (16:49)\u003C/span\u003E: Without wanting to overstep the respected boundaries of the Regulations Review Committee and delve into whether or not something is secondary legislation by virtue of being legislative in nature, I am advised that the document, the 30-year transport plan, is a document created by the Auckland Regional Transport Committee (ARTC). It is not legislative in nature; it is a planning document, and so it wouldn\u2019t classify as signed legislation\u2014but, of course, those are some questions for the likes of the Regulations Review Committee and other more practiced legal minds than I to take into account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn terms of where it fits in the planning framework structure, the Auckland Council\u2019s long-term plan (LTP) has to take it into account. That\u2019s under new section 42G, inserted by clause 14: \u201CWhen preparing [a long-term plan], Auckland Council must take the 30-year transport plan for Auckland into account.\u201D\u2014apply the relevant legal test for what \u201Ctaking into account\u201D means. Then, at the same time, new section 42B: in preparation of the 30-year transport plan, \u201Cthe ARTC must take into account\u2014(a) the GPS \u2026 issued under section 66 of the Land Transport Management Act 2003\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn terms of what this could do to help guide the budget-setting priorities of the Auckland Council, I think it would be common sense to think that if you\u2019ve got a 30-year transport plan agreed to by central government and local government, some of the funding decisions being made at a council level would reflect some of the priorities and the projects in that plan. Again, ultimately, those are decisions up to the Auckland Council and their leadership to make, and the various constraints and funding constraints that they\u2014like central government\u2014are under, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThen, just to go right back to the very start of the member\u2019s questions, why are objectives set by the Government\u2014well, there is always a trade-off between making things like this so prescriptive as to make them very unworkable or so broad as to make them very unreliable and unpredictable. We think, as a Government, we should set some frameworks and some structure for local councils to operate within and then provide them the scope within that to meet some of the primary objectives in this, which are, of course, productivity, economic growth, safe and rapid movement of people and goods, and efficient asset management. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll just take the point around congestion into account: it would surprise me if anyone could interpret \u201Csafe and rapid movement of people and goods\u201D as anything other than addressing issues around congestion. Of course, it\u2019s wider than just addressing congestion; it could take into account distance of people from where they live to where they get to work or to main transport hubs or to critical infrastructure. I would put to the member that there, under new section 42(3)(b), congestion is front and centre of one of the problems of getting the safe and rapid movement of people and goods around Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022440a125e85954bae9f5d470b7551e4f3\u0022 data-id=\u0022bae46800fa578340d8455dbdb50a9965\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022440a125e85954bae9f5d470b7551e4f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bae46800fa578340d8455dbdb50a9965\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT) (16:52)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. In light of those questions about new section 43B and the principles of what the Auckland Regional Transport Committee must take into account, it\u2019s interesting\u2014there\u2019s another part of my Amendment Paper 568 that the Minister has had two calls on now from two different parties in the Chamber and hasn\u2019t yet addressed, so I\u2019m hoping he does take this opportunity to address it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat is under new section 43B; there is a whole lot of sections about what the principal objectives of the council-controlled organisation (CCO) will be: operate in a financially responsible manner, use its revenue efficiently, ensure revenue expenditure is accounted for\u2014all very sensible things. There\u2019s one part in there that goes back to the previous question about M\u0101ori, which is what was raised by the chair of the select committee that examined this bill, Mr Andy Foster, who talked about, again, what is M\u0101ori specifically, and do you think, Minister, that either \u201Cestablish and maintain processes for M\u0101ori to contribute to its decision-making process\u201D needs to be defined by your good self either here or in legislation, or you need to at least, Minister, tell us what M\u0101ori means in this piece of legislation? Is it iwi? As the chair of the select committee that examined this bill raised, there\u2019s roughly, say, off his numbers, about 300,000 people who whakapapa M\u0101ori in T\u0101maki-makau-rau, in Auckland. How are they to be engaged with? Is this being left to the CCO to discover? How is that going to play out? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019d appreciate if you, Minister, would take a call and would do this, because I would also point you to the commentary from the select committee, in which some of us consider that the bill should define what consultation with M\u0101ori would entail to ensure that obligation is clear. I think that deserves to be addressed by the Minister, and, as I outlined at the start of my contribution, we are still waiting for a reply to this Amendment Paper from the start of this part of the committee stage. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022 data-id=\u00223f8d54603f8aef1989b7098798abd8ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f8d54603f8aef1989b7098798abd8ed\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai) (16:55)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I had some questions that are related to the topics that have previously been discussed, but I just wanted to ask the Minister: in defining \u201Cproductivity and economic growth\u201D under new section 43A in new Subpart 2\u2014I\u2019m just wondering how that will be accounted for. I think we can all agree that productivity and economic growth might be useful if it leads to higher living standards and less waste. However, I guess the key question about a transport plan is: how do we know it\u2019s delivering on these objectives, and what\u2019s the definition or measure that we\u2019re using to measure productivity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThen my other question is around disabled access. New Zealand really doesn\u2019t do well on disabled access for buildings or transport systems. In prior terms of Government, we\u2019ve had a requirement for regional land transport committees to have some representation from groups\u2014like people who are living with different disabilities\u2014to feed in. That\u2019s often been a really useful level at which to get that input, because when the regional committee is looking at specific projects and long-term planning, they\u2019re getting those concerns. If none of the members specifically have that angle on it and there\u2019s no legislative requirement that I can see in this for consideration about universal access, is that something that the Minister expects will occur just out of goodwill, or is it the case that the Government is simply, kind of, giving up on that perspective? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve been unable to see any part of this bill which mentions a requirement for the Auckland Regional Transport Committee to have that input from specialist groups who have lived experience of trying to access the city, often through the public transport network but also through the streets and the design of it, and if there is no specific requirement to think about disabled access then it will often get missed and it will be more expensive to remedy later. I\u2019m just wondering if the Minister is open to\u2014or how he sees that working.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFinally, just a comment\u2014and look, I don\u2019t expect the Government to change their position on this, but I do think it\u2019s richly ironic that half of the members will be appointed by a Minister of the day. Surely if we trust the local community to prioritise the transport projects, they have the best information. It\u2019s the locally elected representatives at that local level who probably best express the views and concerns and aspirations of the city. It would make a lot more sense to me to have maybe one ministerial appointment and have the rest of the regional committee be from the council, and not just at the whim of the mayor. The mayor is elected at large, but it\u2019s very, very low participation in that election. If we want to truly get good, sensible transport outcomes, I think we need the 30-year plan to be predominantly put together by people who are elected at that local level\u2014because let\u2019s face it: most people are just voting on vibes, whether it\u2019s for the mayor or the Government of the day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhen you look overseas at cities that have really good outcomes, most of the power and the funding is devolved to the city to make the decision about transport priorities. It\u2019s not done at a national level. Maybe in Australia it\u2019s a combination of state and city, but we\u2019re very\u2014like, a Minister of the day might be very far removed, and even the mayor and a Minister working together might be able to choose a few members of the committee that aren\u2019t actually representative of the whole city. In a way, it\u2019s like, why isn\u2019t the 30-year plan just being developed by Auckland Council and signed off by the governing body? I don\u2019t understand why this Government feels such a need to control what a local city is doing, but it\u2019s apparent in every step that they\u2019ve taken\u2014is pretty much about how the Government of the day and the Minister of the day has a lot more power than the 1.5 or 2 million people who live in Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u002249d10f0e69990aa161e059e2e2a28a08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249d10f0e69990aa161e059e2e2a28a08\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (17:00)\u003C/span\u003E: I thought I would address a couple of points before I\u2019m unceremoniously dumped out of the Chair at about 5 o\u2019clock by my more than able replacement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269b6282fb9c5b988b8318a9951844abf\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Who?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3076bb42418d5204e35f3010a5424d5\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we\u2019ll see. There\u2019s an owl in here! I\u2019ve got some business to attend to, unfortunately. Look, just to address Julie Anne Genter\u2019s\u2014[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u2014well, it\u2019s actually a ministerial meeting with the children\u2019s Minister, so he apologised having to go to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe questions from Julie Anne Genter\u2014one is around a definition and how we\u2019re going to be defining \u201Cproductivity\u201D and \u201Ceconomic growth\u201D. Look, it\u2019s the age-old question of: when you put something in a statute, how\u2019s it going to be defined without putting some sort of descriptive, long, interpretative section? Ultimately, sensible people will apply this statute to their roles and responsibilities. If other people think that they are not applying that in the correct way, they can challenge that application through the courts, and the courts can make a decision as to what the correct interpretation of a particular piece of statute is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think the terms being used in there are both clear enough to point the committee in the direction of meeting those objectives around productivity and economic growth but also provide some space and some flex for those committees to say that, \u201CWell, in order to get the safe and rapid movement of people and goods around the country or around Auckland, safe would include taking into account particular characteristics or disabilities that individuals might take.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat could be one interpretation that the committee might take, but I\u2019m not going to get ahead of that because I don\u2019t want to be on the other side of a court case at some point that says, \u201COh, the Minister said this in the chair, and he meant that, and then we\u2019re going to take what\u2019s in the \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EHansard\u003C/span\u003E as being the intention of Parliament.\u201D, when, actually, the intention of Parliament is the words that are written in the statute, supported by the context and the interpretation and purpose of the text and all that kind of stuff, not the ramblings of Ministers and members in the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMoving on to the last point, where the member said, \u201CWell, what if these appointees are just made at the whim of the mayor?\u201D I will point to the guardrails set out in new section 38F, inserted by clause 14, \u201CAppointment of members by Minister of Transport or mayor\u201D, and particularly new subsection (3)(a) which is in there, \u201Cthe mayor must consult the governing body before making an appointment:\u201D So there are some guardrails put in place there for a mayor who may be going rogue\u2014although, I\u2019m sure that\u2019s never happened in the history of Auckland Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022315a1f15b84eb1964e129688d35d9dd9\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Never.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022865db54c590ace742fadb87f4d02709f\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER\u003C/span\u003E: Never\u2014never happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn terms of Mr Luxton\u2019s questions around the use of the word \u201CM\u0101ori\u201D, look, I can\u2019t answer that directly; all I can appoint to is a couple of things. First, that term was in the bill as introduced, and so my assumption is, in the absence of any agree to disagree provisions, was supported by members of the governing parties through that process, so I can only take that process as word. If there was an agree to disagree provision put in place, I\u2019m happy to hear it, but all I can do is put my interpretation of the text of the bill as was introduced and put through to the Transport and Infrastructure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe second thing I can point to is, yes, the differing views are inserted within the main commentary of the report, but I would note that, at the top of the report, the committee does agree to all of those amendments unanimously. So I can\u2019t speak any further to the deliberations of the select committee but to comment on what\u2019s in front of me in the particular report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232632704a2594ee1b96e617d06beae80\u0022 data-id=\u002208c32907eed604760e3ed5faf3a7aa18\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232632704a2594ee1b96e617d06beae80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208c32907eed604760e3ed5faf3a7aa18\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert) (17:03)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I would like to ask a question that\u2019s very practical and comes from a meeting I had with my constituents who live around Eden Park. And that is: what is the Eden Park precinct? If I have a look at the interpretation section amended by clause 12, it talks about that precinct as being defined, and we go to new section 48(2)(e), inserted by clause 14, where it says \u201Can Eden Park precinct road, being a road that is within the Eden Park precinct (see subsection (3))\u201D, I go to subsection (3), and I get (3)(b), \u201Cthe area that is the Eden Park precinct.\u201D, and I\u2019m none the wiser. I have absolutely no idea what the Eden Park precinct is, and I just can\u2019t tell my constituents what\u2019s in and what\u2019s out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, the difference for them is that there are ones within that area that is, probably, I suspect, the area of traffic management at the current time, that are treated quite differently. Residents have permits. They are the only people who are able to go into the precinct during the times when the park is being used at a certain capacity, and then the ones beyond that precinct get treated differently. What this does is it treats the area that is the Eden Park precinct under control of a central body, in a way that the streets around it won\u2019t be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve already asked questions about the communication between the two parts who will be making decisions on these places where there is an overflow, and I haven\u2019t really had an answer on that. I just want to know what is intended by that precinct. It\u2019s not a trick question. I had a meeting the other day. It was a public meeting. It was well attended. People didn\u2019t know what was in or out. I\u2019ve done surveys in this area. The biggest issue I get is not actually any feeling that is particularly anti the park developing, but it\u2019s about this\u2014it\u2019s about the transport issues around the park. I would be very grateful for an understanding of what that precinct looks like\u2014or, if there is no such definition, how will it be defined, how will we decide what the precinct is, and will that change over time? Thank you. I\u2019m grateful for the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc9135c0398737852b374f4dcc0f32ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc9135c0398737852b374f4dcc0f32ba\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government) (17:06)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for the question. To clarify: Auckland Council will define the Eden Park precinct area when it develops the Auckland roading classification framework. I\u2019m advised that this work is currently under way and that the local boards are being consulted with on the framework. The Minister of Transport must agree to the roading classification framework that I\u2019ve noted, and this provides a safeguard to ensure that the Eden Park precinct is appropriately defined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u00220b760ae4cf51c8e0b85dfcfb1d286ffc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b760ae4cf51c8e0b85dfcfb1d286ffc\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (17:07)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s good to have the Minister of Local Government and Minister for Auckland in the chair, because, obviously, it\u2019s very salient to what the committee is working through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMinister, at new section 38E, inserted by clause 14\u2014this is around the appointment of the chairperson, and it\u2019s identifying that the chairperson of the Auckland Regional Transport Committee would be jointly appointed by the mayor, and there\u2019s a process that the mayor needs to go through, and the Minister of Transport. I just wanted to clarify: is it the Minister\u2019s view that those are two equal parts of that particular equation, that if there\u2019s a circumstance where there is disagreement between those two office holders, how is that brokered? Is it his expectation that it is going to be an equal partnership around that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn terms of the process that the mayor needs to step through in appointing their particular mayoral appointments to the transport committee, a change that the Transport and Infrastructure Committee did make was a requirement for the mayor to not just make those mayoral appointments themselves but they would be required to have some form of consultation with the governing body. This is actually something that the select committee did spend quite a lot of time on: how far that consultation should go, should it be more prescriptive than what is here, or whether it should exist at all. Now, there are some members in this House\u2014I know Mr Foster is one\u2014who have had the experience of being able to exercise mayoral powers, and there are certain things around the appointment of a deputy mayor and setting up a committee structure, and all those sorts of things. A question for you, Minister, is: are you comfortable that that select committee change is kind of the right balance, that the mayor is still required to consult, as opposed to just the mayor making those determinations by themselves?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIf I could just cover a couple of other areas, as well. New section 39F, inserted by clause 14\u2014we haven\u2019t talked about this yet\u2014this is about the expenses, and 39E, the remuneration of members. There is a differential between the remuneration that would be paid to mayoral appointees, and the remuneration that would be paid to ministerial appointees. The Cabinet Fees Framework would deal with one, and the existing sort of allowances and expenses, or existing remuneration, through the Remuneration Authority, would deal with the other. Now, members of the committee are still undertaking the same type of work; it\u2019s not like one gets paid more and they get more of a vote, or thereabouts. Again, is he comfortable that whilst undertaking the same amount of work, there, effectively, would be a potential differential in remuneration levels that would exist there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe only other area that I wanted to touch on in this exchange\u2014well, actually, no, I\u2019m interested in new section 41D, inserted by clause 14. Before you took the chair, Minister Watts, Minister Meager identified that this is about the standing orders. This is a particular bill that would create a set of standing orders that the Auckland Regional Transport Committee would be required to adopt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, you will be familiar with your own bill that\u2019s currently before the Parliament\u2014the Local Government (System Improvements) Amendment Bill\u2014so I think you are the right person to provide a response, if possible, around this. That bill, if passed as amended, would allow for one set of standing orders to apply across the country. I\u2019m just interested in your view on how that applies alongside this particular bill. Minister Meager indicated that it\u2019s something for the future and that, if it happened, the potential is that this could be captured as a result of this. Firstly, is that your expectation\u2014that it would? Secondly, if so, are you concerned, in light of the fact that the committee spent some time putting into this bill a reference to the fact that there needs to be some standing orders? I\u2019ll pause at that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2988eda8059bb869a60a10d6f943b93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2988eda8059bb869a60a10d6f943b93\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government) (17:11)\u003C/span\u003E: Just in regards to the questions on the process, there absolutely is the expectation that it is a joint process shared between the mayor and the Minister, and \u201Cjoint\u201D is what it says on the tin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIn regards to the question about whether I\u2019m comfortable with what the select committee has recommended: yes, I think, primarily, the purpose here is very much one that is aligned with expectations, which is restoring democratic accountability for transport and Auckland transport matters back with Auckland Council. That is the intent of the legislation, and that is what will flow through as a result.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0d6967ee6cf8afadfbc3633e00cc124\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0d6967ee6cf8afadfbc3633e00cc124\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green) (17:12)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I just have a few questions for the Minister regarding new section 42D, \u201CConsultation on plan\u201D, noting that Auckland Council currently has a number of community-based consultation groups, such as seniors, youth, small businesses, etc. I want to check\u2014specifically we\u2019re looking at new sections 42D(2)(c) and (d)\u2014in terms of clear information and members of the public being given reasonable opportunities. I want to check, first, in terms of whether there have been any conversations between the Minister and the mayor regarding how these community-based groups potentially will be able to feed into the consultation process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI specifically want to address it from a senior\u2019s perspective. One of the really important exercises that Auckland Council and Auckland Transport did a little while ago, under the advice of the seniors community group, was to get policymakers to, essentially, go from the Ferry Building in Britomart to, I believe, the Auckland War Memorial Museum without their smartphone and have to navigate public transport without that. Part of the issue that we\u2019re having, when it comes to seniors, is the rapid change in technology and how consultation may not always be accessible for them. I want to check with the Minister regarding clear information in paragraph (c) and the reasonable opportunity in paragraph (d). How would seniors be captured in a lot of this? At the same time, when we\u2019re looking at T\u0101maki-makau-rau Auckland having a third to 40 percent Asian population, how are the voices of the Asian community going to be captured as a part of this as well?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThose are my two questions on new section 42D(2), and for 42D(3), it does say \u201Cconsult M\u0101ori\u201D, which is fantastic, but I wanted\u2014just so we have it on record that, when it comes to \u201Cconsult M\u0101ori\u201D, we\u2019re specifically referring to mana whenua. We\u2019re specifically referring to Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua \u014Cr\u0101kei and Ng\u0101i Tai, etc., with regards to that. I\u2019m just checking on those few questions there. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022440a125e85954bae9f5d470b7551e4f3\u0022 data-id=\u00228ff755db255a43fa348b109fade53ecb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022440a125e85954bae9f5d470b7551e4f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ff755db255a43fa348b109fade53ecb\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT) (17:14)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I wasn\u2019t looking to take another call, but the answer from the previous Minister in the chair, the Hon James Meager, leaves a lot to be desired. This was in regards to my Amendment Paper 568\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb40eb85aab340879622563050ab25fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6a4bb746f6f48ca03c506291185dcb6\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a bit harsh.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022440a125e85954bae9f5d470b7551e4f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022904b9a5f01a3b3d1e91f8f10824f5b1c\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is a bit of a harsh statement, but I think it\u2019s fair to say that saying there was no use of \u201Cagree to disagree\u201D when the bill was introduced and so it must be fine is not really, in a parliamentary process, a suitable answer when members from parties across this House are raising legitimate questions for Aucklanders engaged in the process of a 30-year transport plan that has been through a select committee, had issues identified, and had them flagged in the select committee report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m hoping for a more substantial answer from this Minister in the chair, the Hon Simon Watts, because what we\u2019re talking about here is the preparation of a 30-year transport plan. There is a co-design element at the start, which is between the Minister of Transport, the mayor, and nondescript \u201CM\u0101ori\u201D in this legislation. We need, as a committee, to understand what that means. If tradies, transport users, and ports are not involved in the pre-design of a plan, what is that definition of \u201CM\u0101ori\u201D in this part? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIf we go to the next part\u2014consultation on the plan\u2014it says the Auckland Regional Transport Committee (ARTC) must follow the following consultation process: the process must be \u201Cavailable to the public in any manner and format (which must include an accessible format) that the ARTC considers appropriate to the preferences and needs of the persons who will or may be affected by, or have an interest in, the plan.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAucklanders, people who are using the Auckland roading and transport network, have a part in this bill where consultation is done on the plan which, if my amendment was adopted, would be prepared with direction from the Minister of Transport and the mayor. This leads to a question that Lawrence Xu-Nan has just asked. We\u2019ve got public and we\u2019ve got M\u0101ori without a definition of whether that\u2019s individuals, iwi, what sort of entity we\u2019re talking about. I\u2019m very concerned, based on the answers that we\u2019ve received in this committee stage, that that is left undefined. Therefore\u2014I shudder to even mention this\u2014but is this creating a separation in legislation between people if we\u2019re going to allow such a term to remain undefined in this important part of the committee stage? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022 data-id=\u00224a8b09292094a19ee4890f973644a592\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a8b09292094a19ee4890f973644a592\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government) (17:16)\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to make a comment and then I\u2019ll also come back to some other questions in regards to new section 41D, inserted by clause 14, around standing orders as well that was raised by the member Tangi Utikere before. In regards to the question here around the broad term \u201CM\u0101ori\u201D used in the bill, the term \u201CM\u0101ori\u201D is intentionally used in the bill as an inclusive term, given that there are 19 iwi groups within the Auckland area, and obviously a significant number in that context.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis is also the term used in the Land Transport Management Act 2003 and also the Local Government Act 2002, and in the principal Act, the Local Government (Auckland Council) Act 2009, so there is a consistency in that regard. It is a challenge to replace the term \u201CM\u0101ori\u201D with a particular group, as there is no one group that represents M\u0101ori in Auckland, noting the 19 different iwi groups there that I\u2019ve referred to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMore broadly, to the Amendment Paper that the member Cameron Luxton has noted in regards to that point, the bill does carry forward existing requirements in both transport and local government legislation that relate to M\u0101ori and/or in the case here of new structures and instruments like the Auckland Regional Transport Committee (ARTC) and the 30-year transport plan for Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere are three clauses in the bill that relate specifically to M\u0101ori and the transport system in regards to new section 42B(1)(b), inserted by clause 14; 18HI(a), and 81IA in particular, and also new section 42D(3) which relates to the ARTC to consult with M\u0101ori on the 30-year transport plan and new section 43AB as well.There are a variety of provisions that do deal with that. I\u2019m happy to cover off more detail in regards that amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u0022a654b817369818545b99a4e7e919f11b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a654b817369818545b99a4e7e919f11b\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa) (17:19)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I seek to engage with the Minister now on his new sections 44 through 44AB, inserted by clause 14. These relate to the new transport council-controlled organisation (CCO). It\u2019s good to see a new entity that will be charged with something which is really important to Aucklanders. The provision of public transport is set out there in its primary functions at clause 4(1).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy first question, though, is can he explain why he has allowed significant straying from what he\u2019s written at clause 1 that it will provide for public transport\u2014that seems clear\u2014but then at clause 2 any other transport functions are something that can be delegated to it? So how should Aucklanders expect to see this council-controlled organisation (CCO) developing? Is it a public transport CCO or is it something else?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy next question to him is about who owns public transport assets under the new legislation, because at new section 44(4), inserted by clause 14, there\u2019s no vesting of land interests\u2014that\u2019s well understood. At the current time, you have some assets which are associated with public transport infrastructure in Auckland for which Auckland Transport is the primary interest holder in those, and then you have some assets which are not associated with Auckland Transport, which would be council. Shouldn\u2019t this legislation give some clarity in the project for reforming Auckland transport\u2019s governance arrangements that the public transport CCO should hang on to those assets that are associated with the provision of public transport services, because those are the assets that it will need to continue to perform the public function which is being set out at new section 44(1) inserted by clause 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMoving on to new section 44A, inserted by clause 14, the delegation powers here are very broad, and it would be helpful to give us an indication of, for one, there is no mention of delegation to local boards. That was something that Auckland Transport had provision to engage with local boards quite closely. That was important under the old regime, where local boards didn\u2019t have transport powers. Now they will have some transport powers, but there will be functions within the provision of public transport services\u2014bus routes, for instance\u2014which local boards have a very direct interest in, and, in fact, probably the most popular thing to petition a local board or local board politician about is the provision of where the bus service is going to go, especially for those new developments in Auckland. That is something that isn\u2019t provided for at all here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat is the requirement and what is the expectation on a public transport CCO, which, reminding members, is an organisation which doesn\u2019t have that level of accountability to the public that is being given in other ways in the rest of the transport system by this bill to Auckland Council. How is it then that this new body will be accountable at that local level? The old legislation gave local boards a voice in things like this. This doesn\u2019t seem to have those same protections for delegations, or at least engagement and proactive engagement with local boards. What happens, for instance, if the local board wants to have an active plan for its provision of local bus services, but doesn\u2019t have the statutory mechanism to make sure that those things are on the agenda with a CCO that doesn\u2019t want to listen to those local boards? How do we guarantee the democratic accountability and a way and a mechanism for local people to have some oversight over the provision of local public transport services, like they do in other transport services, because now governance will be shifted into a more publicly accountable mechanism?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI also want to ask the Minister a more general question about these powers. The public transport CCO, most of its powers are granted to it by the council through the long-term plan. That is a well-understood mechanism by Aucklanders, but then we\u2019ve got this other document, which is a creature of his legislation: the 30-year transport plan. One would guess that there will be some overlap and some inconsistencies between those two documents\u2014things like capturing in the 30-year plan the aspirations of Aucklanders for a decongested city will run right up against the long-term plan, where the rubber hits the roads for how to actually fund that. And if Government isn\u2019t making provision in this legislation or in other legislation to provide for Auckland\u2019s long-term reduction in congestion, then there will be some inconsistencies there. How do these two documents match up for the public transport CCO?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248ce26e54d83406399b875df20400dec\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6c1933cdd06fedd1561c4ad38bf0ac6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248ce26e54d83406399b875df20400dec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6c1933cdd06fedd1561c4ad38bf0ac6\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First) (17:24)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Look, I wanted to return to the issue which has been raised by Cameron Luxton, which the Hon James Meager partially answered, but he actually didn\u2019t answer it accurately in terms of the select committee proceedings. I do want to pursue this just a little bit more, because what he said is that he implied that the parties which we\u2019ve got the commentary from the select committee which said that \u201CSome of us are concerned that the bill requires the ARTC \u2018establish and maintain processes for M\u0101ori to contribute\u2019 \u201D. Now, the implication from his answer was that, in fact, that was some of the Opposition parties; actually, it wasn\u2019t. It was ACT and New Zealand First who said, \u201CActually, we are concerned about that, because we don\u2019t like the wording there and we think it is impractical.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe also noted above that we say that we agree\u2014and this was all of us\u2014as a select committee that providing for consultation with M\u0101ori in the new section 42D(3) inserted by clause 14 is appropriate. So the concern that we had here\u2014and the other thing is that the Minister who was then in the chair said, \u201CWell, look, the select committee said at the front end, \u2018We recommend all amendments unanimously.\u2019 \u201D Well, of course, in that particular instance, that amendment, having not passed, it\u2019s not an amendment which is reflected in what we passed. Therefore, every amendment that was agreed by the select committee was unanimous. The one that wasn\u2019t agreed, just simply has not got through there. I think that was a misread of what was being said there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOur logic in part was that we are saying that we\u2019ve got this situation set up in the legislation, which says, \u201CYou\u2019ve got to have the Minister and the Mayor being involved in the process and M\u0101ori.\u201D Now, M\u0101ori, actually, it doesn\u2019t even say it\u2019s in Auckland. Essentially, it could be one fifth of the entire population of New Zealand. In fact, it doesn\u2019t even say you\u2019ve got to be in New Zealand. You\u2019ve got a very, very large number of people who need to be consulted. This is in the design. This is not once you\u2019ve designed it. It\u2019s not going out to the public. When you go out to the public, then, by definition, you\u2019re going to capture all M\u0101ori as well, because the bill is very, very clear that we need to make sure that we provide really good information to everybody. You\u2019ve got the time and the information there to respond to, that\u2019s great, and M\u0101ori will be able to respond in that situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe problem is that the bill as it is at the moment, says\u2014and this is a new issue, because this is a new responsibility. The Auckland Regional Transport Committee (ARTC) and the 30-year transport plan does not exist at the moment\u2014so it\u2019s a new instrument. It says that we\u2019ve got to \u201Cestablish and maintain processes for M\u0101ori to contribute to the development and preparation of the plan.\u201D That is an awful lot of people. If somebody feels that they don\u2019t like what\u2019s in the plan or somebody feels that they haven\u2019t been given the opportunity\u2014maybe they missed something\u2014is there the opportunity for them to therefore in process challenge the plan? There is an issue there because it is so loosely defined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister has already said that the intention was to be inclusive because there are 19 iwi groups in Auckland. Great. Well, why now say, \u201C19 iwi groups\u201D? Why not list them? Why not have a Schedule there? Because that\u2019s not what it said. The previous Minister who was in the chair said it\u2019s what\u2019s in the law that matters, not the utterances are of the Minister on the \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsTerm\u0022 style=\u0022font-style: italic\u0022\u003EHansard\u003C/span\u003E. Now, if that is the case, then saying, \u201CWell, M\u0101ori means 19 iwi\u201D, well, actually, no it doesn\u2019t. It says \u201CM\u0101ori\u201D\u2014that\u2019s what\u2019s in the law. So if we mean 19 iwi, let\u2019s say 19 iwi. If we mean something else, let\u2019s say something else. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Minister also said that it\u2019s been used in the Land Transport Management Act (LTMA) 2003\u2014a piece of legislation which is 23 years old. There are a few things which have changed in 23 years. The Local Government Act 2002, 24 years\u2014few things that have changed there\u2014and in the Local Government (Auckland Council) Act of 2009. So I would put it to you, Minister, that quite a few things have changed in terms of the relationship between M\u0101ori\u2014there\u2019s certainly been a lot of settlements which have occurred since then\u2014and the interpretation may be tighter now than it would have been in those days before. The question really is: is that appropriate language to be used at the moment? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe note that I made is, because we\u2019ve had that issue, particularly with the LTMA, which, of course, this relates to in some way\u2014because it said it in 2002, we should just keep on following that up essentially forever and a day until the LTMA one day maybe gets replaced or repealed. I would suggest to you that that is a fairly lazy way of doing things. If we mean something specific, we should define something specific. M\u0101ori to me means M\u0101ori. It does not mean iwi. I think we need to be really, really clear, and that is really what the concern is that\u2019s being expressed, that if we mean iwi, we should be saying iwi; if we mean M\u0101ori, it\u2019s a very, very large number of people. As I said, roughly one in five New Zealanders, we are told, have some element of M\u0101ori whakapapa alongside any other whakapapa that they might have. Of course, that excludes people from Australia or wherever it might be. I will leave it there. I\u2019ll look forward to the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022 data-id=\u00220b43be43a977be66ff68611e700e2b82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b43be43a977be66ff68611e700e2b82\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government) (17:29)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I\u2019ll come back on a number of questions that have come across the House. I mean, first and foremost in regards to the Amendment Paper by Cameron Luxton, the point in which I am reinforcing here is that, in practice, Auckland Council will support the Auckland Regional Transport Committee to engage with M\u0101ori, using Auckland Council\u2019s well-established processes, staff resources, and existing engagement forums.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe reality is that Auckland Council already has existing mechanisms by which to undertake that task, and this legislation is simply replicating that existing mechanism and not looking to introduce a new mechanism or a new definition over and above what is already in play. For example, in regards to the requirements for new section 42B(1)(b), inserted by clause 14, the provisions in this legislation will impose the same requirements that apply to the New Zealand Transport Agency in relation to decisions about the National Land Transport Fund, under section 18H(1)(a) of the Land Transport Management Act 2003. In new section 42D(3) of the bill, again, the committee is required to consult with M\u0101ori on the draft 30-year transport plan. That, again, is modelled on the existing section 82(2) of the Local Government Act 2002, which requires consultation. Again, we\u2019ve used consistent mechanisms. New section 43B requires consultation, again, based on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Act 2009, which requires Auckland Transport to \u201Cestablish and maintain processes for M\u0101ori to contribute to its decision-making processes\u201D. Again, that process has been replicated. We\u2019re not looking to introduce new mechanisms; we\u2019re looking to utilise existing mechanisms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETo the questions raised by  Julie Anne Genter in regards to the disability community, the requirement that the Auckland Regional Transport Committee must consult on the 30-year transport plan, that needs to be made available in an accessible format, and that is outlined in new section 42D(2)(a) on page 17 of the bill, if the member would refer to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u2019 questions in relation to the relationship between the 30-year plan and the long-term plan: the 30-year plan must be taken into account by the long-term plan under new section 42G.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn regards to questions raised by Tangi Utikere around standing orders of the Auckland Regional Transport Committee, new section 41D, the passing of the local government bill versus this bill, as answered previously by Minister Meager\u2014well, basically, the short answer is this: we\u2019re going to monitor and ensure that they are aligned between those two bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe point raised around expenses of members, mayoral versus Ministers, was also raised previously, new section 39E(4), and it\u2019s appropriate in this instance for the Remuneration Authority to determine the remuneration allowances and expenses of Auckland Council members. This is consistent with the functions of the Remuneration Authority under the Local Government Act 2002.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EArena Williams: who owns the public transport assets? Well, all the assets and other matters currently owned by Auckland Transport will shift to Auckland Council. During the transition period, Auckland Council will determine what remains with the transport council-controlled organisation (CCO). However, obviously, Auckland Council will become the road-controlling authority for which Auckland\u2014most of the assets will shift to Auckland Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u2019 question around transport CCOs and why does it allow further functions: the primary function is public transport, under new section 44(1), allowing for future proficiencies. Also, related functions will be determined to be added. It is the CCO of Auckland Council, and therefore any delegations by Auckland Council must be agreed to by the Minister of Transport, safeguarding future functions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022 data-id=\u002235f7675e429b9e3bdb5e33bc5a4244c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235f7675e429b9e3bdb5e33bc5a4244c6\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green) (17:34)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. First of all, just signalling to the Minister of Local Government, I\u2019m still waiting for my responses on new section 42D(2), inserted by clause 14. Potentially, I think, maybe if the same response for the disability response that the Minister answered regarding the question from my colleague the Hon Julie Anne Genter\u2014that may clarify, but it would be good just to get a confirmation from the Minister regarding the questions I had for consultations with seniors but also consultations with migrant and especially Asian communities as part of the consultation plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI do want to move on to Subpart 3, which is \u201CTransport CCO for Auckland\u201D. I take the note of one of the previous speakers, Arena Williams, around the way that Auckland Transport (AT) transitions to the transport council-controlled organisation (CCO) and some of the questions that she had. I want to focus on new section 43B in terms of operating principles of the transport CCO, and I just cross-reference it with section 59 of the Local Government Act. I\u2019m curious to know why the service that the CCO provides is actually not an operating principle of the transport CCO. At no part here\u2014maybe tangentially in one of the parts in section 59 of the Local Government Act\u2014does it actually mention the requirement to actually provide the service, which I assume is a really fundamental aspect of the transport CCO.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe reason I want to pick up on that as an operating principle is that one of the things that frustrates Aucklanders the most\u2014and maybe the Minister also has personal experiences of this\u2014is the lack of train service at certain times. Particularly, whenever there\u2019s a game, we know, in Eden Park, half of the time the train isn\u2019t taking place. The reason for that is because Auckland Transport, along with KiwiRail, along with One Rail, like, have an over-the-top complicated process in terms of who owns what. For those who are not from Auckland who are interested, Auckland Transport owns the trains and the train stations, but KiwiRail owns the tracks, and so even though the tracks\u2014sometimes, KiwiRail will maintain them, which then takes out all of the trains; Auckland Transport may not be able to do that. That is a huge source of frustration for Aucklanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to check, under this new transitional plan, and also the transition from Auckland Transport to the transport CCO, whether the Minister has sought any advice or any guidance around what that would mean in terms of the complexity created in terms of the Auckland rail network, and whether there is going to be some way of managing the availability of trains as a part of a genuine core service that AT\u2014now the transport CCO\u2014provides. Again, I think, you know, the Minister may remember this, but often when, particularly, there\u2019s a game on at Eden Park, etc., if the trains are not available, we do request that. The one time that I can think of in recent history where it was actually successful in terms of getting the service put on when the service wasn\u2019t supposed to be available actually wasn\u2019t done by the Government or by the council but by FIFA, when they held the FIFA Women\u2019s World Cup. FIFA actually managed to convince KiwiRail to actually put the service back on. So\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b759e76a6d9ff103fdbec8cf776207a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Could I just ask the member, please\u2014sorry to interrupt\u2014which clause are you speaking to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022942baf05501d292999c48d3486eef2b0\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: This is new section 43B, and this is to do with the question series around the operating principles and around the service that the transport CCO would be providing for Aucklanders, and that brings in the broader issue that we\u2019re experiencing in Auckland around the availability of rail as a part of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215b00a8f587c8e93210f7a5c19783ee7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: OK, so it sounds to me like you\u2019re talking about operational decisions rather than the clauses in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218bb7af5ff3d743ad413096da52d6517\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: What I\u2019m focusing on, Madam Chair, is in 43B, in terms of the operating principles, if you\u2019re looking at new subparagraphs (a) to (e), not a single one of those principles actually talks about the service that the transport CCO should be providing for the public and for the population of Auckland. I mentioned that I cross-referenced it with section 59 of the Local Government Act, and that also is very loose when it comes to the operating principle of providing a service. I want to check with the Minister: if that\u2019s not an operating principle, does that mean that\u2014they can talk about in terms of efficiency and cost-benefit, etc., and seeking value for money, but none of this actually talks about providing the service that one would assume the transport CCO should be providing. That\u2019s all. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb40eb85aab340879622563050ab25fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec8135b108833a0bc5fc593f4279140b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb40eb85aab340879622563050ab25fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec8135b108833a0bc5fc593f4279140b\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty) (17:39)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat debate on this question now close\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u0022302875454e87753c0424927517c050f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022302875454e87753c0424927517c050f9\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa) (17:39)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I wish to bring the Minister of Local Government to Subpart 4. These are the provisions that relate to the council-controlled organisation (CCO), and I\u2019ll start at new section 45C, inserted by clause 14. His answers to my previous questions were quite helpful because they were not what I had assumed. Under this provision, it says that Auckland Council must specify in the long-term plan the activities that the public transport CCO is going to be delegated with. So, as I understand it from his previous answer, he said that the meaning of new section 44(2) isn\u2019t that council can sort of thwart the intention of the Government to create a public transport CCO with a public transport function, because the Minister needs to OK that delegation. However, then when we come back to what it says in 45C(1), all of the delegation powers are framed as delegating powers around the management of public transport. Is it that the Auckland Council could delegate broader powers, if the Minister was OK with that, to provide for something that was not public transport at the council-controlled organisation (CCO) level? All councils are able to create CCOs, which have delegated functions that sort of remove them from the realm of publicly elected members and into the realm of technocrats and officials. So you would expect that power, but it seems to be that under new section 45C(1), inserted by clause 14, the CCO can only receive delegations that are to do with the provision of public transport, buses, trains\u2014that\u2019s it. Perhaps there are other provisions, but as I understand it, that is what it is quite limited to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI also want to ask how is it that\u2014does new section 46(1)(b), where the Minister approves the proposed delegation, create an anomaly whereby Auckland Council could have, like every other council in the country, gone through its process to create a long-term plan (LTP) and then have a Minister essentially disallow part of the instrument? Is this a disallowance power for the Minister in a planning instrument and we should understand it as such, or is it that there would be an iterative process where a Minister would negotiate the LTP and then the LTP would have to be reconsulted with Aucklanders? How is it the case that once you had specified in the LTP, then the rule would need to go to a Minister for further approval? But that is what the legislation says.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI also want to ask him about his new section 46(3). This section suggests to me that it doesn\u2019t have to be in the LTP. The reason I ask him about this is because to specify that it must be in writing would suggest to me that we\u2019re talking about other kinds of written delegations here which might not find themselves to be in the LTP, and that might be his provision for allowing for the Minister and the council to agree on another sort of delegation. Is that what he\u2019s thinking of when he\u2019s talking about delegations which are not public transport delegations that are defined in new section 45C? It\u2019s important that we get to the bottom of this because I think most Aucklanders think that what they\u2019re getting is the public transport CCO, and I think that, as the Government has billed this as more democratic accountability in Auckland\u2019s transport system that is a good thing that is well supported by parties of this House and by Aucklanders. So, if they\u2019re not getting that; if they\u2019re getting a sort of back door to further delegation in the future that is things that aren\u2019t public transport, or if we actually have a system where there is more ministerial control over what is than the long-term plan, then it\u2019s a useful thing for us to appreciate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe last question I have is around new section 46(7), which is around how the delegations affect or prevent Auckland Council from performing their duties. This very clearly says that Auckland Council isn\u2019t prevented from doing the things it delegates. This is a well understood sort of delegation power where you say that the delegator retains the powers to do those things. But, in a council context, that is a little bit unusual\u2014where you would have an elected body delegating to a CCO but retaining the powers to do exactly the same things that it has asked the CCO to do. In this context, I have asked the Minister about bus routes. They are the thing that public love to write to us and locally elected members about\u2014and so they should\u2014but for that person on the street who is writing to us about bus routes, are they meant to write to Auckland Council? Are they meant to write to the CCO? Are they meant to write to the local board? That is a fundamental question. It should be really obvious, but it isn\u2019t from this legislation, so could the Minister please clarify that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022 data-id=\u00225593b1117f1a86440ee94ad62988df8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225593b1117f1a86440ee94ad62988df8d\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government) (17:44)\u003C/span\u003E: The point that was raised was around the operational performance and where does that sit around what time the bus turns up or that level of detail. That will be delegated through to the public transport council-controlled organisation (CCO). That\u2019s the entity which will deal with that. In regards to the question around delegations, there\u2019s concerns that potentially this is a back-door mechanism for other things; yeah\u2014absolutely not. There is clear joint responsibility in terms of the appointment of the individuals that go on to the broader Auckland Regional Transport Committee; that\u2019s between the Minister and the mayor, and those individuals will then have delegated power in regards to decision making, and they are the group that will make the decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIn regards to the clause, more broadly as well, and again, with delegations, the determination of public transport activities in the long-term plan are different from a delegation which could be broader than public transport under new section 46, which I think is what the member was referring to in her question. It is not a disallowance power in the context of the broader long-term plan. I think, if I heard the question right in the context of the way in which the member was asking, that\u2019s to clarify that point. That should cover off the points that were raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022440a125e85954bae9f5d470b7551e4f3\u0022 data-id=\u0022829f3286be2548277e10945e4684f358\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022440a125e85954bae9f5d470b7551e4f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022829f3286be2548277e10945e4684f358\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT) (17:45)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, I rise to take a final point on the Amendment Paper 568, which I have raised. The reason for this is I\u2019d like to give the Minister a chance to respond to something that is a concern for the people of Auckland. The concern is that what we\u2019ve heard here is a defence. This bill talks about the people of Auckland and their transport system and the governance thereof, and there is a concern that there is, by not adopting my Amendment Paper, which specifically says that the people whose direction should be followed are the elected representatives of New Zealanders and Aucklanders, being the mayor and the Minister of Transport, that the current bill has also in there \u201Cestablish and maintain processes for M\u0101ori to contribute to the development and preparation of the plan\u201D: co-design of a 30-year plan, Minister. There is concern that by not supporting my amendment, it is not clear that you do not intend the section not to be interpreted as a co-design or co-governance of Auckland\u2019s transport 30-year plan. I would invite you to support my Amendment Paper or to respond to concerns that by not doing so means that co-governance is being written into this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u00221fe832d3549ef3705d4761edd6af366b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221fe832d3549ef3705d4761edd6af366b\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (17:47)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I really do want to thank the Minister for his succinct answers in addressing the questions that have been raised because it means that we can just move on. So I do want to thank him for that. I want to have a look at new section 46A, inserted by clause 14. This is where the council has a legislative ability to make the operating rules for the transport council-controlled organisation (CCO). Now, when we look at what\u2019s been inserted there by the select committee\u2014and there is new paragraph 4A(1)(ac)\u2014this talks about the Auckland Council being able to make rules in relation to the procedures for dispute resolution between the Auckland Council and the transport CCO. My first question to the Minister for this one is: why is that needed? I think that this bill coming to the House is very clear about where the responsibilities lie, and I think that perhaps there is a view that\u2019s held that the view of Auckland Council on matters outside of public transport is that it should be the Auckland Council view that prevails if there is some sort of dispute between the CCO and the council. I\u2019m just a little bit perplexed as to why the council needs to turn its mind to putting in place some procedures around dispute resolution between the two when the expectation, I think, is pretty clear around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOne of the things that we haven\u2019t actually talked about yet is the Government\u2019s own Amendment Paper: Minister Bishop\u2019s own Amendment Paper 564. Relative to Part 2, as I understand it, that Amendment Paper will introduce two additional changes that haven\u2019t been covered yet. The first relates to new section 46AB. When I was looking at that, it identifies that the Auckland Council must not perform the functions of the CCO related to things that are delegated and the public transport activities. So the public transport activities\u2014that make sense because what this bill does is it\u2019s basically transferring responsibility for public transport over to the new transport CCO. So, I mean, I had a question for the Minister, which is: why should there be a requirement for the CCO, or the council in this respect, to not actually perform those other functions? I assume the Minister\u2019s amendment to new section 46AB is seeking to clarify that and that it is basically, \u201CWell, no, the only responsibility that the CCO will have will be public transport.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOn new section 46B, which is a restriction on borrowing for the transport council-controlled organisation (CCO), Minister, is the intention there to, effectively, protect\u2014well, at the end of the day, ratepayers who will be footing the bill and the costs for this from any unmanaged financial risk that may arise as a result of a capacity to borrow? That, I think, would be very, very helpful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want, also, to turn to new section 47B, which is about the governing body and the local boards having to consider certain matters when exercising their powers. Now, I would like the Minister to perhaps respond to this particular section, because this is the second part of the quinella in this part when it comes to Minister Bishop\u2019s Amendment Paper 564. This is seeking to, basically, instead of what\u2019s outlined there in existing section 47B, which says when the governing body or a local board exercises certain powers and things, that they need to think about or to have regard to freight through the area, frequently running public transport networks in the area\u2014so it\u2019s basically saying, as I understand it, those decision makers need to have regard to and to think about those sorts of things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, what\u2019s quite a significant change in the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper is actually, well, no, what needs to be inserted there in new section 47B is actually that when those powers are being performed, a local board\u2014so not the governing body, but a local board\u2014basically needs to go about those duties and responsibilities in a way \u201Cthat does not obstruct regionally significant transport projects\u201D. That is actually quite a significant change there, and I think\u2014well, the responsible thing would be for the Opposition to be asking the Minister, well, why is there that quite significant change that he\u2019s seeking to advance, given that that hasn\u2019t been addressed at this stage?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022 data-id=\u00224c4e5445163c13ebee88ad0ca7a4e9ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c4e5445163c13ebee88ad0ca7a4e9ba\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government) (17:52)\u003C/span\u003E: Thanks very much, Madam Chair. I want to respond to some of Cameron Luxton\u2019s statements. First and foremost, the Amendment Paper by Cameron Luxton is not an Amendment Paper on behalf of the broader Government. The points that I have noted previously is that the legislation applies similar requirements that are already in place in other legislation that exists today, and while there are mechanisms within that clause that allow for M\u0101ori to be able to input and provide advisory and opinions and context through, the definitive and the final decision making lies with the Auckland Regional Transport Committee, who are jointly appointed by both the mayor and the Minister. That is the decision-making body which makes decisions in regards to the way in which this entity will operate. The interpretation or implication that this is somewhat introducing terms such as \u201Cco-governance\u201D and that are simply not the reality reflected in the requirements, which are consistent with other aspects of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022 data-id=\u00224af9e531f369cb668b3e56d6d327e8fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224af9e531f369cb668b3e56d6d327e8fa\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green) (17:53)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to move on and ask the Minister a couple of questions around new section 48, and this is under \u201CMiscellaneous provisions\u201D regarding the Auckland roading classification framework. I have a couple of questions for the Minister. Regarding 48(2), and especially some of the classifications regarding arterial roads for traffic, freight, public transport, or a local road, etc.\u2014would this have potentially any implications for the type of vehicles that will be able to travel in certain roads? For example, when we\u2019re looking at \u201Ca road that collects and distributes traffic to and from properties within a specific area\u201D, does that mean that certain vehicles, particularly freight and etc.\u2014there will be a limitation on what can travel? And again, this comes down to the fact that we do see in T\u0101maki, in particular, a lot of, I guess, heavy vehicles travelling down residential roads. I was just curious if that\u2019s something that the Minister has considered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also curious to know when we\u2019re looking at new section 48(e) and (f)\u2014noting that I was not part of the select committee when this was heard and I have read some of the departmental reports\u2014but I\u2019m interested to know why other really key stadiums, for example, Mount Smart, to give an example, weren\u2019t also considered as part of that, and why Eden Park was specifically and explicitly stated in this. I\u2019m going to actually just leave it at those two questions for now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b7cff05e64f346e68983b2fdbfba3ad8\u0022 data-id=\u00225efbff919be191407abf668941abfdf3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b7cff05e64f346e68983b2fdbfba3ad8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225efbff919be191407abf668941abfdf3\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote) (17:55)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat debate on this question now close\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d36839451fe3ea91b613cde527371b69\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I think we are getting close to the end of this part anyway\u2014Arena Williams.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec00e1aa0580ebbbf682aee1fc58b2b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec00e1aa0580ebbbf682aee1fc58b2b8\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa) (17:55)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to clarify with the Minister his answer around the Amendment Paper 564 in the name of his colleague, Chris Bishop. Is he saying that the operation of 46AB in its new form, that Auckland Council mustn\u2019t undertake the transport activities that it set out in its long-term plan (LTP)\u2014when he says that there isn\u2019t an allowance for the Minister, does that mean that anything in the LTP, because that\u2019s the document that delegates to the CCO its functions, is something that is then prohibited for the council to be able to undertake?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI ask that because we know now that the Minister needs to agree to that power; and so, is it the case that if anything\u2019s in the LTP and delegated by Auckland Council, even if the Minister hasn\u2019t agreed to it, that council mustn\u2019t undertake that function? The LTP isn\u2019t just a document that Auckland Council can change; it\u2019s a document that has to be consulted upon and is well signposted for the Auckland public, so it can exist for years before the Minister could get to the point of being asked for a yes or no answer. Is it the case that then there is a prohibition on Auckland Council to undertake those things which are set out in that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI also want him to just\u2014hopefully\u2014explain the local board now being prohibited from making decisions which could be impacting city-wide routes, particularly for freight. Freight was something that was enshrined in his new section 48(2)(ii), and that is significant, but it is also important that those local boards have some say over that. The new provision for this is that decisions that are made at local board level would be delegated to do it from Auckland Council specifically for the purpose of having a local flavour to them. Local boards now don\u2019t have a mechanism for consulting or inputting into the decisions of the new public transport council-controlled organisation (CCO), and, therefore, what is the ability of local boards to have a say around those larger roads and the provisions for them that are made when they go through the area of a local board? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt seems that local boards now have far fewer powers than they did under the old system of delegation by their governing body to impact on what kind of road usage can be applied to roads, given that they don\u2019t have the statutory functions of inputting into transport plans that Auckland Transport would have made, where it would have been relevant for not only arterial routes but local roads to be used by freight and heavy trucks. The Minister will recall earlier in this committee of the whole House stage, I asked questions not only about the movement of freight but also about the parking of trucks and the levying of infringement. How is it, Minister, that in the clause 14 of Amendment Paper 564, new section 47B, local boards have any ability to impact upon those rules if they have to take into account the regional framework that is enshrined in the primary legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d773c41c92195485380f9c8f331b40ed\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The time has come for me to leave the Chair for the dinner break. The House will resume in committee at 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterItalicsCentred\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 5.59 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a33eb9ed01f51c42b940027bcce1193\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Good evening, members. When we stopped for dinner, the House was in committee for the Local Government (Auckland Council) (Transport Governance) Amendment Bill. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022 data-id=\u0022e922e9f94a08d8a355489d7ab9269e86\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e922e9f94a08d8a355489d7ab9269e86\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government) (19:30)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I\u2019m just going to answer a few questions that were raised before the dinner break.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFirst and foremost, there was a question in regards to the Government\u2019s Amendment Paper 564, and particularly around the purpose of that. The Government\u2019s Amendment Paper introduces a safeguard. If the governing body believes that a local board decision obstructs a regional project or service, it introduces a dispute resolution process modelled on that already contained in the Local Government (Auckland Council) Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EArena Williams asked a question in regards to \u201CWhy should Auckland Council be able to perform powers delegated?\u201D Well, retaining the powers to perform or exercise a specific power that is delegated is standard for local government delegations in the Local Government Act 2002. Auckland Council are responsible for any powers delegated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere asked a question around Amendment Paper 564\u2014the removal of clause under new section 46AB(a). The removal of this new section 46AB(a) is to remove an inconsistency between the provision and the power for Auckland Council to perform functions it delegates to the transport council-controlled organisation (CCO) under new section 46.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere also asked a question in regards to new section 46B, inserted by clause 14. This clause carries over from the previous restriction of CCO borrowings in the Local Government (Auckland Council) Act. It helps with the financial management factors related to the CCO and also reflects the accountabilities of Auckland Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u00227262389b5aa1aa30f9aa433ab319fc41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227262389b5aa1aa30f9aa433ab319fc41\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (19:31)\u003C/span\u003E: Meitaki maata, Mr Chair. Thank you to the Minister in the chair for those responses. I want to move now to what is new section 48A, under clause 14. This is about the review of the performance of the transport functions. Now, this is a significant change for Auckland in terms of who will be responsible for aspects of transportation. Public transport will sit with the new transport council-controlled organisation (CCO), whereas local boards take up a particular responsibility in other areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to this particular clause, this is, effectively, a review clause that\u2019s been inserted that kicks in after five years. I\u2019m interested in a couple of things: whether the Minister thinks that the five years is appropriate as a time frame. We\u2019re talking about progress on a 30-year transportation plan that has a longer-term approach, we also know that the life of terms of local government are around three- by three- by three-year sort of chunks, so five years, effectively, might see through to the end of the next term of the local government sort of context there. When we look at what is actually expected under that review, it only talks about the performance of the powers, functions, and responsibilities under this part for the CCO and for the council. It\u2019s important that it\u2019s not just the governing body but it is also the local boards that are included here as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EDoes the Minister see any gaps in that review opportunity? I know that, under subsection (2), it talks about the council being able to consult any person that they consider appropriate in undertaking that review and that the review itself needs to be presented to the Parliament by way of the Minister of Transport. Can the Minister confirm that the review report to the Parliament will provide a checkpoint on whether these forms of reform are delivering the intended outcomes that he and his predecessors have been referring to there? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not quite clear in the bill itself, but will the review consider things like the effectiveness of the governance arrangements? Will it consider the effectiveness of the way in which the transport services have been delivered? I\u2019m not just referring to the CCO, because that\u2019s purely going to have a focus on public transport, but also the public confidence that may or may not exist in the entities in terms of what it is that they\u2019re going to do. It\u2019s not uncommon\u2014from time to time, there are aspects in legislation that relate to a review process\u2014but this is very, very discreet in terms of a review of Auckland Council\u2019s service delivery approach and the CCOs. Does the Minister see any particular gaps as part of that review process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMaybe the Minister doesn\u2019t see any gaps as part of that particular process, we\u2019re not quite sure. We haven\u2019t talked about the review option as of yet in this particular committee. Maybe we need to think about the different time options that could be available to undertake a review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EEarlier, I touched on the three by three by three. Is it the expectation that the five-year review period\u2014I mean, it won\u2019t necessarily align with the parliamentary term, and I guess that\u2019s not so much of a big deal, because the report will land in front of the Parliament when it does. If we\u2019re talking about decision makers who might be on a local board and there may have been an election, and the five year kicks in just after that, and you\u2019ve got new individuals sitting around the table, considering what works and what doesn\u2019t work, why is it that the five years might actually be the particular figure that the Minister is or isn\u2019t comfortable on? Given that we didn\u2019t get a response on that, we can only really infer why some of these reasons might be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe interesting thing is that the way in which local boards undertake different responsibilities\u2014and this was the point, I think, that my colleague Arena Williams was making to the Minister\u2014there is an opportunity here for there to be quite a lot of discretion amongst the local boards. She used the example of heavy truck movements in particular parts of South Auckland, where there might be a number of local boards that make a determination based on what the local view or perspective is, what the local pressures are, and what the local resourcing opportunities might be at a particular time, in a particular place. It might be that, actually, there are different\u2014and it\u2019s likely to be\u2014transport decisions taken by different local boards. Actually, it\u2019s highly probable that that would be the case, because, otherwise, you wouldn\u2019t devolve the responsibility to local boards. How is there going to be some consistency around the way in which this actually functions? Again, when we\u2019re talking about 48A, it identifies the Auckland Council. It says here \u201C(including the governing body and local boards):\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, there will be some aspects in this suite of options\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f0fbe67251cee4d81dc606eca92deb6\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: A lot of decision makers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b84553cc96b9e496dda5a5612e7a21c9\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014where a lot of decision makers\u2014and, actually, that\u2019s a very good point, Mr Halbert, because local boards, there are many of them through Auckland. We don\u2019t have, again, them anywhere else in the country. It\u2019s a bespoke form of local government sort of arrangements for T\u0101maki-makau-rau. Is the five years still appropriate, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022 data-id=\u0022de9e959bc8fb3ef7c31e22db099a7ca3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de9e959bc8fb3ef7c31e22db099a7ca3\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government) (19:38)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Mr Chair. Yes, in regards to new section 48A, inserted by clause 14, on page 28 of the bill, the five-year term is appropriate for all of the new transport arrangements to be bedded in Auckland. The transport council-controlled organisation\u2019s (CCO\u2019s) new role, the Auckland Transport committee structure, and the Auckland Council has a roading controlling authority for Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn regards to Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s questions earlier, before the break, in regards to consultation with migrant and Asian communities, new section 42D(2)(a), inserted by clause 14, on page 17 of the bill, outlines the mechanisms in regards to engaging with those who may be affected by the plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn regards to the question by Tangi Utikere in regards to \u201CWhy is new section 46A(1)(c) needed?\u201D, in reference to page 43, Auckland Council\u2019s ability to set disputes resolution procedures are intended to ensure the relationship between Auckland Council and its CCOs are clear from any issues that are resolved officially.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe other questions I had already covered previously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b7cff05e64f346e68983b2fdbfba3ad8\u0022 data-id=\u00222ba04389e544a49598987f95e4ddcf2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b7cff05e64f346e68983b2fdbfba3ad8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ba04389e544a49598987f95e4ddcf2a\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote) (19:39)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat debate on this question now close\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat debate on this question now close\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 74\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A05; Ferris.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286effe0ac4f37904dd9176c1ae27f7a9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 2 set out on Amendment Paper 564 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271436c6735e58d9ac719173238810d51\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Cameron Luxton\u2019s amendments to clause 14 set out on Amendment Paper 568 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220c708ab0d0d139fbf01217c432995c25\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u002258df357212ceddadf919efdf01291464\u0022\u003EPart 3 Amendments to Part 8 and other matters, and Schedules 1, 2, and 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209a85794cb1c4d191c857687fded3343\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 3, the debate on clauses 15 to 21, which is amendments to Part 8 of the principal Act and other matters, and Schedules 1, 2, and 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u00222457ffba34603eb146321ad6f60ee229\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222457ffba34603eb146321ad6f60ee229\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (19:41)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. The questions that I have are around the transitional arrangements, and the Transport and Infrastructure Committee has commented in its report\u2014we\u2019ve covered this in the second reading, so I won\u2019t go too far into it, but one of the concerns that we did have was the ability of Auckland Council and Auckland Transport (AT) to deal with the transition of the staff that were involved. This was actually something that the Public Service Association also brought to the select committee\u2019s attention in making sure that the transitional arrangements that were in place were comprehensive and would ensure a smooth process, because it\u2019s at times like this that there can be some uncertainty around what might be happening and what the positions might be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s fair to say that the committee had a degree of confidence with some of the comments that were made, but does the Minister have his own confidence in the abilities of Auckland Council and, indeed, AT to oversee or manage that transition process for staff? We\u2019re talking about a change to the way in which transportation will be delivered in our country\u2019s largest city, and ensuring that that transition is able to be done in a smooth way is really, really important. That\u2019s the first question for the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe next one is around ensuring there is no gap in the accountability aspects for anyone who is making decisions, and it is important for us to identify what the current approach is. Those decisions for transportation are largely taken by unelected members. This bill seeks to significantly change that, to put the accountability back with those who are publicly elected to these particular roles, so how will the Government ensure that there is no gap in accountability as the process of transition gets under way?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not too sure how much time I\u2019ve got left. The clock says that it\u2019s zero, but I\u2019m sure I haven\u2019t\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be9875dbfc42151b3ad5f7e0dafd9d4d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, no\u2014you can carry on. We\u2019ll say that you\u2019ve got three minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254622e49cc2198f694d137750cabe33d\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Have I got three minutes? Thank you, sir. This sort of confirmation of accountability for employees is really important, and ensuring that the organisation is in a really robust way so that they\u2019re able to look after the staff\u2014which was of real concern\u2014is part of the reason why these transitional arrangements have been alluded to and have been put in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ENow, the schedules that have been identified as part of this outline a number of different aspects in terms of the process that will need to be followed. It\u2019s not my intention to go through all of that, but ensuring that at the end of the process of transition the staff are protected and there\u2019s confidence from the Government that the entities involved will be able to manage that transition smoothly and in a way that is appropriate is, I think, important for some assurance to be given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022 data-id=\u00225989688648190b3a360a06aa113868eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225989688648190b3a360a06aa113868eb\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government) (19:45)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do have confidence that they are going to work their way through this process in an appropriate manner when dealing with the HR matters. Actually, Auckland Council has already released a transition plan in regard to how it\u2019s going to manage the risks related to this mechanism, so that will cover the questions in regard to the schedules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c297c08ed7d49c29af77b0609b02662a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to Part 3 set out on Amendment Paper 564 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254e35cdce88a4fe518f388f610b7ec00\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Schedule 1 set out on Amendment Paper 564 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227851c0c055a31c696e24684dafbf79bf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Schedule 3 set out on Amendment Paper 564 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d60b0defbc0cde9dafd72534f955525d\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fa1654e6adacb2623e60302aef59d53c\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bad63ee78f95708348bb86a4e363435a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to our final debate, on clauses 1 to 3, which is the debate on the \u201CTitle\u201D, \u201CCommencement\u201D, and \u201CPrincipal Act\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u00222ee9b55f8d5627adcbc1de259e6c57e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ee9b55f8d5627adcbc1de259e6c57e4\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (19:46)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you again, Mr Chair. Well, we\u2019re finally getting to the end of this particular debate, and it\u2019s not my intention to ask the Minister any questions about the appropriateness of the title. Some other colleagues may have some other views, perhaps\u2014particularly colleagues who are based in T\u0101maki-makau-rau might have some views as to what might be appropriate, but I\u2019ll leave that for them if they choose to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy question, though, is really around clause 2. This is the commencement clause and, put quite simply, the Minister will be aware that what\u2019s proposed there is not an uncommon approach when it comes to when the Act, once it is given Royal assent, should come into play. What is proposed here is that it would come into effect or come into force on the day after Royal assent is given. Now, given there are a number of transitional arrangements and a number of changes that need to take place, I guess what I\u2019m seeking from the Minister is whether he is comfortable\u2014I guess it\u2019s a guarantee, really\u2014that the commencement date as indicated here provides sufficient certainty not just for Auckland Council but also for the current Auckland Transport arrangement to begin the transition planning immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat I think is really interesting is that, actually, with the Auckland Regional Transport Committee, there are already calls out there for members to join that committee before the Parliament has even kind of given its approval, so there are already in train some proposals or suggestions that are already under way. I guess the alternative, really, is only a particular calendar date, rather than anything else. It\u2019s very straightforward, and the simple question is whether the Minister can give some confirmation that the commencement date outlined in clause 2 is such that it is sufficient for Auckland Council in terms of the transition, and also whether or not the Minister intends to outline how central government will support Auckland Council during this initial post - Royal assent set-up to ensure the continuity of transportation services. We are talking about decisions that are taken at a local level, but in terms of public transport provision, I also ask whether it is able to maintain some form of continuity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022 data-id=\u0022b399df8fbc72453c20c8fb55a09057cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b399df8fbc72453c20c8fb55a09057cc\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government) (19:49)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Mr Chair. Yes, I can provide that assurance. Both the Crown and Auckland Council have been working very closely together. It would be fair to say that there is significant appetite from Aucklanders to see the governance of transport-related matters being, in effect, returned back to those who are democratically accountable for transport, which is Auckland Council. The broader reform of this programme effects that change. It better aligns between Auckland Council and the Crown the way in which that entity is governed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe timeline, really, is let\u2019s get on with this. It\u2019s going to be a significant win for Aucklanders and it\u2019s great to be able to pass that through legislation and keep it moving tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232632704a2594ee1b96e617d06beae80\u0022 data-id=\u0022ecebb46dc38f6638d3779f47378b5e63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232632704a2594ee1b96e617d06beae80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ecebb46dc38f6638d3779f47378b5e63\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert) (19:50)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I just note that the title, actually, of this bill talks about it being an Act of 2025 and we\u2019re in 2026. It says that it\u2019s going to commence the day after Royal assent, but in fact it\u2019s set out as a bill from 2025, and so I\u2019m wondering whether that\u2019s an accident and it needs an amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022 data-id=\u0022939a586d8580eed9a3714dbc54d1ef37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022939a586d8580eed9a3714dbc54d1ef37\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government) (19:50)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that is done by the Clerk, and that refers to when the bill was put through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022 data-id=\u00225581cd8116e6409362c789155ab6c8a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225581cd8116e6409362c789155ab6c8a5\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour) (19:51)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s my first opportunity to speak to this, but I will be brief. I think it is important that this piece of legislation moves beyond this House. There is a sense of urgency that Auckland does prioritise transport. When I look at the title of this legislation before the committee and with the Minister today, the Local Government (Auckland Council) (Transport Governance) Amendment Bill, one of my biggest concerns is that under the last couple of years there have been major cuts to Auckland Transport, in particular. Up to $120\u00A0million, I understand, has been cut annually since the last Labour Government. That is not to be political tonight; that is to clearly say that while we can change legislation, the outcome of moving Aucklanders in and around our congested city doesn\u2019t change without adequate investment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIn particular, I note that in this piece of legislation, it does bring some in-house to Auckland Council. I think there are benefits to that, but it does leave within the existing council-controlled organisation public transport only. We know in order to grow our city and to get on top of congestion, public transport has to be a major priority in that, and we haven\u2019t seen good investment. In fact, we\u2019ve gone backwards in investment in public transport in Auckland because of this Government. My suggested title here for the Minister is the \u201CLocal Government (Auckland Council) (Transport Governance) (Show me the Money, Minister) Amendment Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b7cff05e64f346e68983b2fdbfba3ad8\u0022 data-id=\u00226a70b8dd08f4ead0332f2914a658ac74\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b7cff05e64f346e68983b2fdbfba3ad8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a70b8dd08f4ead0332f2914a658ac74\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote) (19:52)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat debate on this question now close\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat debate on this question now close\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 74\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5; Ferris.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d5bb7bb0eecbdb05bf3fc39cce354759\u0022\u003EAnti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e212a40171ede4018688fa7891aca0de\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u00221f897b36810f0f274a13ed535b503ddf\u0022\u003EPart 1 Amendments to Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Act 2009\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022044085850ab36e56f0904ca8e336285e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Amendment Bill. We begin with a debate on Part 1. This is the debate on clauses 3 to 28, \u201CAmendments to Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Act 2009\u201D. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u0022be9051f16390ebaee7c117a609206b48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be9051f16390ebaee7c117a609206b48\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (19:55)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank you to the members of the House for joining me for the committee of the whole House stage for the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism (Supervisor, Levy, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill, which I\u2019ll refer to from here on as the supervisor and levy bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m honoured to be leading the supervisor and levy bill through the committee stage after the broad support it received at its second reading, and I look forward to hearing your views as we debate the bill. This bill will make a range of structural enhancements to the anti - money laundering (AML) system. Firstly, it will streamline the AML supervision by moving to a single supervisor, the Department of Internal Affairs, from the current three supervisors. The DIA has vast experience in intelligence-led investigations, with a current track record in supervising casinos, money remitters, and other high-risk sectors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EUnder a single supervisor, businesses will benefit from improved and more responsive guidance and reduced cost and complexity where the risk is low. Businesses will be supported to apply risk-based compliance, lighter compliance when the risks are low, and more intense supervision for higher-risk sectors and situations. As our front line of defence, we want businesses more focused on compliance that identify suspicious activities to detect and deter potential crime, rather than spending time on low-risk transactions that do nothing to tackle crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESecond, the bill introduces a new industry levy to improve the functioning of the anti\u00A0-\u00A0money laundering countering financial terrorism system. It is estimated that over $1.6 billion is laundered annually through New Zealand\u2019s financial system, money that is tied to serious harm in our communities from drug trafficking, fraud, and organised crime that exploits vulnerable people. Industry is telling us they want better intelligence from Governments so that they can be more effective in helping tackle financial crime. Government agencies have not been resourced well enough to address the requests from industry to improve the system, and this change forms part of these reforms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFinally, the third component of this bill updates some flexible regulation that can result in ineffective use of our resources and undetected crime. Organised crime syndicates are becoming increasingly innovative, using new methods and emerging technologies to outpace regulation. This bill will allow agencies to make regulatory changes through alternative forms of secondary legislation, such as rules and notices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fe7508c7b8a47378c4c88fe1ce69fcb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d253f50b7d6c5cb3a7560a2183148588\u0022\u003ECushla Tangaere-Manuel\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223325ddb3f3cc97213190f4813a573c4a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Minister. I believe the point of order will be in relation to which bill we\u2019re talking about. Now, there are two very similar bills, Minister. This is the one we\u2019re on: Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Amendment Bill. That\u2019s the next\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cd4a22d7ffbf8870fecb67d370f1a53\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: My apologies. I was told that this was the first bill that we were debating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe88fc6eb935aa09605b1e2f9acfa91a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a very understandable mistake; they\u2019re very similar.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d3d98455df45e5e546a0dd4a4fd8182\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, Mr Chair. If the Minister has skipped over a bill, she\u2019s fully entitled to do that; she just can\u2019t go back to it. It would appear that she\u2019s chosen to miss an item off the Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226367a2b2384f7c6c8c9aaa2a0d30d9af\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: No, she hasn\u2019t skipped over a bill. I read out this bill. She is speaking to another bill and I\u2019m now bringing her back to the bill that she needs to be speaking about, but nice observation there. Just to confirm, we\u2019re now on the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Amendment Bill and the bill that the Minister is discussing will be the next bill. The Minister can stand and speak, as long as she\u2019s in the bill, so there we go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f0c6a8e040eb10dd90e941e804b4438\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I may start with a new introduction. This time, I\u2019m going to speak to the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Amendment Bill and I\u2019m very pleased to be leading this particular bill through the committee stage. I\u2019m pleased to say that there was broad support across the House for this bill at its second reading and I look forward to hearing the views of the other parties as we debate the bill. This bill will make a range of targeted enhancements to the anti - money laundering (AML) regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt focuses on amendments that make continuous improvements and repairs without major policy or system design changes or significant financial implications, ensuring that the anti - money laundering and countering financing of terrorism legislation remains fit for purpose. This bill carefully balances the objective of delivering regulatory relief for businesses and people in New Zealand with the effectiveness of the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOne of the changes in the bill that will make the most difference is relaxing the requirement for businesses to conduct customer due diligence for low-risk trusts. Currently, businesses must apply the same enhanced customer due diligence requirements to all trusts regardless of their risk, even though in New Zealand there are many low-risk trusts like small family trusts. This bill will allow for the application of customer due diligence measures for low-risk trusts that are more proportionate to the risk that they represent. We are also removing the requirement for people to submit a border cash report if they have received cash from someone who physically moved the cash into New Zealand, as this is needless duplication. This change will streamline the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis bill is a practical demonstration of the Government\u2019s focus on regulatory stewardship. We must progress this bill as it will help to ensure New Zealand\u2019s regulatory systems remain up to date, fit for purpose, and beneficial for businesses and the public. I welcome debate on this particular bill, but I will also mention that there is an amendment paper on the table, Amendment Paper 572. There will also be an amendment paper on the following bill\u2014that will be Amendment Paper 573. Effectively, what I\u2019m looking to do is delete clauses 23, 24, and 28 from this particular bill and then insert them into the bill that we are going to debate next. It\u2019s not gone, it\u2019s just removed from this bill and being placed into the next\u2014that\u2019s what those two amendment papers are about. I look forward to the upcoming discussion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022 data-id=\u0022677bdd6bd46fbfda97495e94aa495824\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022677bdd6bd46fbfda97495e94aa495824\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour) (20:02)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair, and thanks to the Minister for the fulsome introduction. I think these bills do have quite similar names, and then obviously the two amendments are also working between these two bills. We did have them read as one during the last reading, so it is understandable that there is some overlap between the two of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI did want to go back to the original legislation, the 2009 Act, and just start at the beginning, as it were, with clause 3, which refers back to that principal Act. I\u2019ve got a copy of that here, and I wanted to just check with the Minister\u2014she\u2019s made a few comments around what this bill will do, and I wanted to check with her that it is her intention, through the passage of this legislation, to make it more difficult and the systems to be more robust in order to prevent money laundering in New Zealand. The reason that I ask that question is when you look at\u2014it happens to be clause 3 of the principal Act as well\u2014the purpose of the primary bill which is being amended, and there isn\u2019t a subsequent amendment to the purpose, as I understand, in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe main purpose of the primary piece of legislation is to detect and deter money laundering and the financing of terrorism and to maintain and enhance New Zealand\u2019s international reputation by adopting, where appropriate in the New Zealand context, recommendations issued by the Financial Action Task Force and to contribute to the public confidence in the system. It\u2019s also got subclause (2) there that I won\u2019t read out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Minister, in her opening comments, made comments regarding the proportionality of reporting requirements, indicating that some\u2014and I\u2019m interested to know if this was her intention\u2014of the reporting that is required at the moment may be, and this is my interpretation of what she said, more arduous or more stringent than necessary in terms of the use of the word \u201Cproportionate\u201D. I want to know: is it her intention to water down this purpose in the primary legislation at all, or not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe other thing that the Minister mentioned was the need for reports and the fact that this bill will remove a need for a report to be done in certain instances. I wanted to check with her, in terms of the primary piece of legislation which I\u2019m referring to in clause 3, will that support these goals\u2014which are, I think we can agree across the House, important. It\u2019s important that we have public confidence in the financial system; it\u2019s important that we detect and deter money laundering; and, of course, financing terrorism is obviously something that we have to be very, very concerned about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI just wanted to allow the Minister to answer those questions, especially with those initial opening comments, which did indicate, perhaps, a lessening of the stringent nature of this regime. In terms of my opening question, I just wondered if the Minister may be able to respond to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u00223f5ce707da1b923c12cda20f702cc6f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f5ce707da1b923c12cda20f702cc6f3\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (20:05)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair, and I thank the member for asking for some clarity around what this regime change will actually do. Quite rightfully, you\u2019ve asked, \u201Care we lessening or weakening some of these holds?\u201D and my answer, hand on heart to the member, is no we\u2019re not. What we\u2019re looking to do is ensure that when we go after the dirty money, so to speak, that we\u2019re going after it in the right place\u2014that we\u2019re not targeting every single person who is moving money as that potential organised crime prospect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETo give you an example of that is looking at the trusts, for example. We do have, I believe, around 700,000 trusts in New Zealand, and\u2014I might have this transposed\u2014400,000 are high risk and 300,000 are low risk. It\u2019s making those low-risk trusts\u2014basically, your standard family trust\u2014to not have to go through the same rigmarole that some of those higher-risk trusts do. It\u2019s allowing the agencies to be able to determine what is their risk factor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAnother example would be, say, buying and selling a house. You\u2019ll be interacting with a real estate agent, with a lawyer, and with a bank, and at the moment, all three of those entities are asking you to provide the same information. We\u2019re basically saying if it\u2019s the one transaction, let\u2019s have one entity get all of that information and confer to the rest that it\u2019s all OK because they have already received that information. This will cut costs. It will enable people to just be able to move on without having to jump through the hoops. In that respect there is some relaxing, but it\u2019s not relaxing on behalf of organised crime or our ability to chase organised crime\u2014we very much will continue to go after the dirty money and protect as many people as we can within New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022 data-id=\u00226fc8d8ced363ae7a0a6e9db4b292b4c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226fc8d8ced363ae7a0a6e9db4b292b4c5\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central) (20:07)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Just moving deliberately through the legislation, just looking at clause 4. It inserts a new definition of \u201Cbeneficial owner\u201D, and on my reading of it, paragraph (a) is the existing definition\u2014so there\u2019s no change there\u2014but paragraph (b) is, in fact, new. I\u2019d invite the Minister to explain why the additional paragraph (b) is needed, because it would seem that paragraph (a) is fairly broad. The one that does the work is a beneficial owner, so the definition of \u201Cbeneficial owner\u201D is a person\u2014individual\u2014\u201Cwho has effective control of the customer or person on whose behalf a transaction is conducted\u201D. That\u2019s a broad test but it\u2019s a clear one, and it\u2019s not any particular, it\u2019s just effective control.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn paragraph (b), we\u2019ve got, essentially, a repetition of that: \u201Cand (b) includes an individual (i) with ultimate ownership or control of the customer \u2026 or\u201D\u2014and then you\u2019ve got this really odd clause which just seems to muddy the water\u2014\u201C(ii) who is a customer of a customer, and on whose behalf a transaction is conducted, but only if the individual meets the requirements set out in subparagraph (i)\u201D, so it goes up again to ultimate ownership. It seems to be a really convoluted way of saying \u201Ceffective control\u201D, because it doesn\u2019t matter if you\u2019re a customer of a customer or not if you\u2019ve also got to have ultimate ownership or control, which is effective control. I\u2019m not sure if there\u2019s a case out there which triggered this or there\u2019s some notional gap in the law, but I must say, I find it really frustrating when the law seems to just populate itself\u2014it breeds, and words just multiply before our eyes.  And so, I\u2019d be really interested to know what the thinking behind this one is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAlso, just whilst we\u2019re here, I\u2019m interested to know, because new paragraph (a)(ii) talks about \u201Cprescribed thresholds\u201D\u2014we see that a lot in company law, that if you\u2019ve got 25 percent of a company, you\u2019ve got certain restrictions; 50 percent, other takeover rules apply; and once it gets to, sort of, 95 percent, you get a compulsory takeover framework; and so on and so forth. I get all that. I\u2019m interested to know what the prescribed threshold is, because I\u2019m presuming that that\u2019s in regulations already. Control is assumed when you own such and such of a company. That may change depending on how large the company is, but I\u2019d be interested in that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy real point is simply that one around, why do we need a rule about \u201Ca customer of a customer\u201D, which then also includes \u201Cultimate ownership or control\u201D, when you\u2019ve got a very effective test that simply talks about \u201Ceffective control of a customer or person on whose behalf a transaction is conducted\u201D? I\u2019d be interested to know what\u2019s the gap, what\u2019s the fix\u2014what\u2019s the mischief?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u00227a48724e0aeaa3ea1dc185d5c3b48732\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a48724e0aeaa3ea1dc185d5c3b48732\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (20:11)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I think the member was referring to section 5, not section 4, so I\u2019m going to answer it\u2014I\u2019m pretty sure it\u2019s section 5. Clause 4, amending section 5?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fdd378fcd4193276d33401160830ea1\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, yes. Clause 4 of the bill, section 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4b9aa066327e89dde0939cf34d4a088\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: OK, thank you. Clause 4, \u201CSection 5 amended\u201D, is amending the principal Act to update the definition of a \u201Cbeneficial owner\u201D, update the definition of \u201Cdesignated non-financial business or profession\u201D, replace the definition of \u201Ctrust and company service provider\u201D, and insert a new definition of \u201Cmoney or value transfer service\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe reason why we\u2019re making these changes about the \u201Ccustomer of a customer\u201D is because the statutory review found that there was an issue that the definition of beneficial owner in the Act is capturing some people that it shouldn\u2019t, and that referred to the customers of a customer. It also identified gaps in the definition, in that it did not include a person with ultimate ownership or control. The definition was initially amended in the regulations, and this amendment brings those definitions into the Act. The new definition will include \u201Ca person with ultimate ownership or control\u201D and exclude \u201Cthe customers of a customer\u201D unless they\u2019re the ones with the ultimate ownership. Ultimately, this amendment provides clarity and relief by ensuring businesses do not have to undertake the Act\u2019s obligations on customers of customers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn relation to the member\u2019s second point, if the member could, please\u2014he said \u201C(a)(ii)\u201D, but I don\u2019t understand where that is. If the member was able to point me to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022 data-id=\u00228c5cda66d538de97da78ceb7e8e381f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c5cda66d538de97da78ceb7e8e381f7\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central) (20:12)\u003C/span\u003E: I can do that, if the Chair will allow me. The prescribed threshold is referred to in clause 4 of the bill, \u201CSection 5 amended\u201D: \u201Cbeneficial owner\u201D means an individual who \u201C(i) has effective control \u2026 or \u2026 (ii) owns a prescribed threshold\u201D. My question was: what is the prescribed threshold of a company?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227911ecbed05144651236a5c40b09232d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just while the Minister\u2019s taking advice\u2014Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022 data-id=\u0022390985697aa7caaae788d4827b69efc7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022390985697aa7caaae788d4827b69efc7\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green) (20:13)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Thank you for joining us, Minister. I have two broader policy-based questions also in relation to what we\u2019re seeing within the regulatory impact statement as well. I think the first question is: when this bill was first introduced and then when the second bill was introduced, it was supposed to be one part of four, in terms of some of the changes. I just want to check in terms of how this one\u2019s going to be tied into the broader things, when some of these are now\u2014one and two, once past third reading, will be in effect, and then, you know, just checking with the Minister if there\u2019s any intention around when the subsequent bill is going to be introduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe second question I have is: a lot of the things we\u2019re seeing here are the result of the Financial Action Task Force recommendations, as well. I\u2019m noting in the regulatory impact statement that it mentions there were some limitations around the ability to consult because of the mutual analysis between the Financial Action Task Force and, also, in terms of the bill being introduced with a 2028 limit. I just want to check with the Minister, again, with some of the things we\u2019re seeing here, how that would then be implemented and, in terms of that potential, whether that\u2019s a review in 2028 again by the Financial Action Task Force. If you wouldn\u2019t mind just elaborating on what that interaction is going to be like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOn to the bill: I\u2019m actually going to talk about clause 4, \u201CSection 5 amended\u201D, but subclause (3). This is the definition of \u201Ctrust and company service provider\u201D. Again, noting what the Hon Dr Duncan Webb mentioned before, what we\u2019re seeing with new paragraph (a) is that (a) is the existing definition, but new paragraph (b) is what the Minister mentioned is the new thing. I totally understand in terms of, let\u2019s say, you have a single transaction and you have three people asking the same thing\u2014it\u2019s easier if it\u2019s just one person. But, in this particular case, when we\u2019re looking at the definition of \u201Cdesignated non-financial business or profession carried out by the financial institution\u201D, I\u2019m interested to know, if it\u2019s one point of contact, who, then, out of the three\u2014the example that Minister gave\u2014would then be responsible for getting that, or is it going to be transaction based? If the client is, in this case, having that single transaction, that means the client will provide the same document to all three, so where would the onus for that be? I don\u2019t know if I\u2019m making any sense, but if the Minister understands it, that would be great.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI guess the context for that is: I remember when the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Act got a major update in 2018, and one of my previous jobs, when it comes to working in international education, was helping students open a bank account. One of the challenges we hit over there was the requirements that were needed for students, as a client, trying to go to a bank and open a bank account, because there was a potential worry that international students were using the same system to launder money from various locations. I want to check, in this case, with the single source, if it\u2019s a single transaction and now we\u2019re reducing, for example, from three to one, would the same, I guess, compliance lens by all of these agencies be able to be placed on the client to make sure that there\u2019s nothing going on in the background? Again, if I\u2019m making sense. Those are my questions for the time being.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u0022fafffef17f35e159e64d1bb60449f8fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fafffef17f35e159e64d1bb60449f8fb\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (20:17)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I\u2019ll start by answering Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s question, The prescribed threshold set out in section 5 of the anti-money laundering (AML) definitions\u2014it says \u201CR5 of AML definitions regulations 2011\u201D\u2014is greater than 25 percent, if that makes sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMoving on to the member from the Green Party\u2019s questions: the first question the member asked was around the four AML bills that we have going through. The first one\u2019s already done; we\u2019ve passed that. This one and the one that we\u2019re debating directly after this are two more, and then the fourth one will be under way this year. It won\u2019t be completed this term, but the most important parts of what we need to do to meet our Financial Action Task Force obligations for the evaluation, which starts to take place in 2027 and finishes in 2028\u2014we need this to go through in order to be able to say to them that we have addressed the issues they raised at their last mutual evaluation in 2021 and that this is what we have put into place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThey may turn around and say, \u201CWell, you haven\u2019t done it fast enough.\u201D or they might say, \u201CActually, this looks really good. We want to see what is occurring as a result of that.\u201D By the time we get to that evaluation, we would be 12 months, possibly even 18 months, into a regime to be able to actually show some outcomes for the changes that we\u2019ve had. We won\u2019t know until we actually get to that evaluation point. That\u2019s one of the reasons why we are putting through four AML bills and three of them in this term: so that we can look to meet those Financial Action Task Force obligations, which would benefit everybody in New Zealand\u2014including every political party, as well. I\u2019m grateful for that cross-party support there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe member asked me about who does what when I gave my examples. You\u2019ve got three entities collecting the information; who\u2019s going to be doing that? One of the main confusing aspects about AML is that people don\u2019t know who has to do what, and this is partially because we\u2019ve had three supervisors who couldn\u2019t agree on the type of information that needed to go out to the different regulators or agencies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFrom 1 July, we will have one agency. It will be up to them to give advice to all the different users of the anti - money-laundering to tell them what their obligations are and help them to work within the new regime that we\u2019re putting in place. If I were to say, today, that it\u2019s the banks that are going to do it and not the real estate agents, well, there may be an area where the supervisor might say, \u201CActually, we may need someone to capture this, and someone else to capture that.\u201D; or it may be fine for one entity to capture the lot, but they need to work it through and, more importantly, they need to work it through with industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis is where the national strategy comes in as being so important\u2014and that\u2019s in the following bill\u2014because we need to understand from industry what it is that they might have an issue with or what it is that is being duplicated that shouldn\u2019t be, so that we make sure that our response doesn\u2019t create more issues for them and actually just gets to the crux of the problem that we\u2019re trying to address, which is the money-laundering and the organised crime within New Zealand. I hope that one made sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef23266abaeea885bbbd87082728b2ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef23266abaeea885bbbd87082728b2ae\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour) (20:21)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank you to the Associate Minister of Justice for her engagement and for her answers to members\u2019 questions and to my previous question. As the Minister has alluded to, this has received support throughout the House. It\u2019s good to have that assurance around the stringent requirements and the fact that we\u2019re not diverting from the purpose of preventing money-laundering, or weakening or watering that down. Thank you for that reassurance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI just wanted to, as colleagues have also been doing, stick to the initial clauses that we\u2019re looking at and stick to the definitional clauses and the interpretation that had been changed. We\u2019ve had a couple of questions on that, but I wanted to bring up a few questions which haven\u2019t been covered yet. There are a few of these, and they\u2019re small things, but I might just go through them, and then if the Minister wishes to respond to them or get some advice, that would be excellent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe first one, if we\u2019re looking at the clauses, is clause 4(2)(b). In this particular change, there\u2019s a change from \u201Cengaging in or giving instructions\u201D to \u201Ccarrying out, preparing to carry out, or giving instructions\u201D. I just wanted to query with the Minister\u2014and apologies, I wasn\u2019t on the Justice Committee when this was being debated, so it may be that there\u2019s an obvious answer\u2014what the effective intention from that change was. It appears to be a little bit similar but also has the intention of, I think, \u201Ccarrying out\u201D, as well, \u201Cpreparing to carry out\u201D, which is maybe the fundamental change. I just wanted to clarify with the Minister if that was her intention in that clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe next question I have, in relation to the definitional section, is that because the select committee, I understand, has deleted the clauses in relation to a specific definition of \u201Clife insurer\u201D. I just wanted to understand how, following that change, if the Minister agrees to that change from the select committee, and where those obligations would otherwise be reflected in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe third definitional question that I wish to ask is in relation to, I think, clause 4(4)(a)(ii), and that\u2019s just under that \u201Clife insurer\u201D section in the bill. It specifies here that payments can be in \u201Ca corresponding sum in cash or in other physical forms.\u201D I\u2019ve looked at the primary piece of legislation in relation to whether that is, in fact, defined in the definition section of the principal bill. Therefore, I just wanted to know from the Minister what other physical forms of payments were envisaged. Obviously, we can think of a few that might come to the top of our head\u2014so, for example, gold would be one, I\u2019m interested to know whether that is intended in that physical form; cryptocurrency might be another form. That is something that I just wanted some clarity on in terms of the nature of those types of transactions as to what that might be applied to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI did have some other questions that have been covered by Dr Duncan Webb and Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2014I won\u2019t repeat those. Those are my questions in relation to that definitional section.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u00224eb7ed14d1df1ebb649f6827e031e1ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224eb7ed14d1df1ebb649f6827e031e1ae\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (20:25)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Yes, crypto, gold, precious metals are all to be in there, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EJust looking at what the member had mentioned about clause 4(2), \u201Cdefinition of designated non-financial business or profession\u201D, and the member was talking about the carry-on provision. The businesses find that the definition of a \u201Cdesignated non-financial business or profession\u201D is quite unclear for them. The amendment will modify the definition to clarify that anti - money-laundering obligations will also apply in those situations when a designated non-financial business or profession assists its client but has no direct involvement. The two specific situations that the amended definition captures are to do with managing client funds and preparing to carry out activities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EManaging client funds is an activity that carries anti - money-laundering obligations, except where the client funds are sums paid as fees for services provided by the designated non-financial business or profession, and the updated definition also makes it clear that preparing to carry out certain activities is itself considering an activity and carries the corresponding anti - money-laundering obligations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to clause 4(4), providing a new definition of a \u201Clife insurer\u201D, this amendment was intended to just address a gap that was in the Act. The upcoming changes in the next bill will mean that it\u2019s no longer required. My officials recommended, through the departmental report, that it should be removed, and the Justice Committee agreed to that removal, but it will be removed in the next bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226f607d4079164946af0eb589f5753d1b\u0022 data-id=\u002280aef071945ffe908bb491c6b2a4307d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f607d4079164946af0eb589f5753d1b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280aef071945ffe908bb491c6b2a4307d\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour) (20:27)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank you to the Associate Minister of Justice for her engagement thus far. I also had a couple of questions in relation to the interpretation section. Just as a supplementary to Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s comment on \u201Cbeneficial owner\u201D, I do wonder whether there is the possibility for an unintended consequence in terms of the addition to that definition. As Dr Webb pointed out, the initial definition is current legislation is quite broad, with the specificity in amended section 5(1), amended by clause 4, both (i) and (ii), it just seems that there might be a potential risk that that will be seen to be the stretch of the definition. For example, a beneficial owner could be a customer of a customer, but it doesn\u2019t look at whether it\u2019s possible for that chain to be longer. I just want the Minister\u2019s view about whether there\u2019s potential for the addition of that section not to provide more specificity but, actually, to limit the scope of what effective control could be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe other issue that Dr Webb raised was on the prescribed threshold. He asked about what that was. My question is about where that threshold should be\u2014so whether the Minister considered that it may be more appropriate for that threshold to be in primary legislation, as opposed to secondary legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy third question is in relation to clause 4(3). This is the one that replaces the definition of \u201Ctrust and company service provider\u201D. It also uses part of the current definition and adds on a new paragraph (b). My question to the Minister is about the effect of excluding a person that is a financial institution in those additional circumstances, and the rationale for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy fourth question is in relation to the definition of \u201Cmoney or value transfer service\u201D. Clause 4(4)(a)(i) says \u201Caccepts, or is involved in the acceptance of, funds or value\u201D. My question is about the broad framing of using those words \u201Cor is involved in the acceptance of\u201D. Is there a risk that that language is too broad, and did the Minister consider either a more defined scope of that to ensure that individuals who shouldn\u2019t be caught in that transfer aren\u2019t caught who might have a very peripheral role but may still be involved in the acceptance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022 data-id=\u0022bdc051c1c973d577ffb6b4bc429ad1dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bdc051c1c973d577ffb6b4bc429ad1dd\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green) (20:30)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. While we\u2019re waiting for the Minister to get some advice on the previous questions, I do want to move on to\u2014we\u2019re looking at some changes from clauses 6 to 8, particularly when it comes to the replacement of customer with person. Noting the definition of customer within the anti - money-laundering and countering financing of terrorism (AMLCFT) legislation, particularly in section 5 of the principal Act, I want to check: in general, \u201Ccustomer\u201D is referring to a physical person in most cases, but \u201Cperson\u201D, for example, could include a legal entity. Noting that clauses 6, 7, and 8 amend sections 14, 18, and 22, I want to check with the Minister on what are the potential implications of changing \u201Ccustomer\u201D to \u201Cperson\u201D and \u201Cperson\u201D being interpreted as a legal person\u2014ergo, potentially a company. Would that affect how we interpret that particular clause overall? Also, in the same way that we\u2019re changing from customer to person, yet I don\u2019t see the cross-heading being changed. What is the implication, then, of not having the cross-heading updated to say customer or person, regarding any of those sections as well?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002224cf2b07c863455d8ff343c5bc53b590\u0022 data-id=\u0022354e3e3f3434a7d199d057df64f8271a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002224cf2b07c863455d8ff343c5bc53b590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022354e3e3f3434a7d199d057df64f8271a\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for Mental Health) (20:31)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Just in response to the member, Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan, why are we replacing the word \u201Ccustomer\u201D with \u201Cperson\u201D in the sections of the Act dealing with customer due diligence requirements? Why is it not appropriate to use \u201Ccustomer\u201D? The word \u201Ccustomer\u201D is defined in section 5 of the Act as \u201C(b)(ii) a person conducting or seeking to conduct an occasional transaction or activity\u201D. Customer due diligence requirements refer to a customer seeking to conduct an occasional transaction or activity\u2014well, this creates a circular and confusing requirement as a person seeking to conduct an occasional transaction is already a customer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022 data-id=\u002256c14723b9dd96e8168228a8195146a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256c14723b9dd96e8168228a8195146a2\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central) (20:32)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Keen to just ask a couple of questions of the Minister. The first relates to the amended section 5(1), inserted by clause 4, in particular clause 4(a)(ii) of that. It\u2019s been touched on, but I want to raise a different matter, particularly the section that talks about a service that \u201Cpays, or arranges for the payment of, a corresponding sum in cash\u201D\u2014this is the definition of \u201Cmoney or value transfer service\u201D. Now I\u2019m just concerned about the word \u201Ccorresponding\u201D in there, because if I give you $1,000 worth of gold and then you transfer to someone else $1,000, that is a corresponding amount of value\u2014that\u2019s what corresponding means. But, in fact, that\u2019s not how money-laundering works. The way money-laundering works in nefarious places is you give me $1,000 worth of gold and I give the person you nominate $800 worth of cash. In fact, by definition, the number doesn\u2019t correspond because I skim my money-laundering commission off the top. So \u201Ccorresponding\u201D is the wrong word. Now, there might be some relationship between the amount of gold I give you and the amount of cash you pay to a third party, but it\u2019s not a corresponding amount. I would hate to see someone get off because they say, \u201COh, no, I wasn\u2019t doing money value transfers services because I took a 50 percent commission and it didn\u2019t correspond with it.\u201D That\u2019s the first point\u2014a really narrow point about why are you using the word \u201Ccorresponding\u201D when money-laundering numbers don\u2019t correspond with each other. They\u2019re always taxing it on the way through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe second one is new section 24(4), inserted by clause 9. This is customer due diligence, and the Minister in charge of the bill has made clear that she wants to make it easier for people who are low risk. But my concern is that this clause essentially enables a person to be low risk if they think they\u2019re low risk, because what it says is: \u201C[the] reporting entity is not required to comply with subsection (1)(b)\u201D\u2014which is the upgraded disclosure requirements\u2014\u201Cif the customer or person is a trust described in [such and such] section and the reporting entity is satisfied\u201D\u2014the \u201Creporting entity\u201D is the person who\u2019s regulated by this legislation\u2014\u201Cthat any risks have been mitigated by conducting [certain due diligence]\u201D. So the test is not whether there is a risk; it\u2019s whether the reporting entity thinks there\u2019s a risk. It\u2019s not objective at all. It\u2019s entirely subjective and it\u2019s subjective depending on the mind of the person whose subject to these regulations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIf you if you think\u2014mistakenly or unreasonably or stupidly\u2014that any risks have been mitigated by standard customer due diligence, then you don\u2019t have to do this next enhanced step. Now, that can\u2019t be right because there are plenty of stupid entities out there that will make mistakes about that. The test should be an objective one, so why has the Minister introduced a subjective test into something that is as black and white as money-laundering?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022 data-id=\u00224c9296c97e2acff0c609892d919a6f04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c9296c97e2acff0c609892d919a6f04\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour) (20:36)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ve got some questions that follow on from the sections that Dr Duncan Webb was referring to. The Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee in this case has decided to delete the originally proposed clause in relation to \u201Cpolitically exposed person\u201D, however, no need to panic, that is retained in the existing piece of legislation under section 26. The question I had was\u2014and it may be a similar issue to the one that the Minister mentioned before, that some of that is going to be included in a new piece of legislation, but if the Minister could elucidate on whether the Minister agrees with that or not, that would be helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI do have some questions in relation to the following subclauses. I believe that it might be subclauses 10(2) and (3), which essentially talk about changing the wording from \u201Cestablished\u201D and \u201Cconducted\u201D to \u201Cestablishes\u201D and \u201Cconducts\u201D. That indicates a move to look towards something that is actively happening as opposed to something which has happened in the past. I wanted to understand that in terms of the nature of the bill and, obviously, in wanting to understand if there\u2019s any retrospective element to the bill, why that particular language has been chosen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe next two points I want to make are more substantive to the purpose of the bill\u2014sorry, I did have a question in relation to clause 10(1), and it is an important one because in clause 10(1) it amends section 26(1): after \u201Creasonable steps\u201D, \u201Caccording to the level of risk involved\u201D is added. That has been added by the select committee, but it does have the effect of probably slightly watering down the impact of section 26(1). Rather than just having \u201Creasonable steps\u201D, it\u2019s \u201Caccording to the level of risk involved\u201D. So \u201Creasonable steps according to the level of risk involved\u201D is obviously a little bit weaker than \u201Creasonable steps\u201D in and of itself. The Minister has said that the intention isn\u2019t to water that down, and so I just wanted to probe that further with that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe second question I had is in relation to clause 11 and this is along similar lines to my previous point. In clause 11, there is a proposal to look at the primary section 29(2)(c) and to delete \u201Cand effective\u201D. Essentially, at the moment, we have a requirement that\u2014I\u2019ve got the primary Act here\u2014\u201Cthe anti - money-laundering and countering financing of terrorism controls to ascertain that those controls are adequate and effective\u201D; this bill deletes \u201Ceffective\u201D. So I would really like to know why \u201Ceffective\u201D is being deleted, because it does strengthen the requirements of this bill.  In fact, does the Minister agree with that, given the comments that were made earlier about the fact that, obviously, we want a proportionate bill. We are supporting this bill, we want it to be a good piece of legislation, but it does appear that that\u2019s been weakened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think especially those last two questions in relation to clauses 10(1) and 11 are quite important to the purpose and the functionality of making sure that this is still consistent with the purpose of the primary piece of legislation. I\u2019d be grateful if the Minister could address those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002224cf2b07c863455d8ff343c5bc53b590\u0022 data-id=\u00221df120b92ef26886d7b03da45fc55188\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002224cf2b07c863455d8ff343c5bc53b590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221df120b92ef26886d7b03da45fc55188\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for Mental Health) (20:40)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I just thought I\u2019d gather up a few questions there. There was a question around thresholds. I\u2019ve been advised that the threshold in place is 25 percent in 2011, amended to be more than 25 percent in 2013. Not identified as problematic in the statutory reviews\u2014they haven\u2019t looked to change. I\u2019m comfortable that this remains in regulations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe question was asked about why other enhanced customer due diligence checks are still required for low-risk trusts. Low risk is not the same as no risk. Completely removing the requirement for enhanced customer due diligence for trusts does not align with the risk-based approach. The intent is to remove the requirement to verify the source of fund or wealth, not to remove the requirement to collect the information on the source of funds or wealth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe question that was asked: why is it not practical for banks to confirm whether banks they correspond with have effective anti - money-laundering and countering financing of terrorism controls? To effectively carry out this requirement, a bank would need to complete an in-depth assessment on whether the controls are functioning as intended. That requires access to the other banks\u2019 internal information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe final question\u2014I think it\u2019s clause 10(1)\u2014what is \u201Cpolitically exposed person\u201D? Politically exposed persons are people who hold or have held important public roles in another country\u2014for example, presidents, senior politicians, top Government, military, or court officials, heads of State-owned companies, or key political leaders. The definition also includes their immediate family members and beneficial owners. It allows business to apply the requirement proportionately to their level of risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022 data-id=\u002202a03ee645843b172f4ab7ba172d2026\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202a03ee645843b172f4ab7ba172d2026\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green) (20:42)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ve got a couple of questions for the Minister, also noting that the question might be quite specific. The Minister can feel free to take some advice around that as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOn to clause 9\u2014and after clause 9, I\u2019m going to move on to clause 13. In terms of clause 9, I note that the Minister mentioned before in terms of synthesising from, potentially, three different supervisors to one supervisor, and that particular supervisor will be the Department of Internal Affairs (DIA). I want to check with the Minister: in the regulatory impact statement, both the Reserve Bank of New Zealand (RBNZ) and also the Financial Markets Authority (FMA) actually do not support the changes that are being proposed. I do note the Minister of Justice\u2019s response to the RBNZ and FMA, but I want to specifically focus on a couple of things in paragraphs 136 and 137 of the regulatory impact statement. This is on page 28.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe three areas I want to address are, first of all, that the RBNZ\u2019s concern is around the depth of the analysis. I just want to check, because that\u2019s not part of the response by the Ministry of Justice, whether the Minister believes that the level of analysis or depth of analysis for this change has been met. The second question is around the suggestion by both the RBNZ and FMA that there should be legislative improvements at the same time, prioritised over the structural changes, such as reducing from three supervisors to one. Noting that this is a series of bills, does the Minister think that that legislative improvement has also been met, alongside the structural changes that are being proposed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy final question, again, was that in the response from the Ministry of Justice to the RBNZ and FMA, in paragraphs 140 to 143, the RBNZ specifically mentions costly and disruptive structural changes. I just want to check with the Minister what is meant by \u201Ccostly\u201D. With the changes we\u2019re looking at, how costly would that be? Have there been any figures that the Minister has received from officials on that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOn to clause 13\u2014this is \u201CSection 52 amended (How records to be kept)\u201D. I know this is something that, as a select committee, we did discuss, but I want to check with the Minister. For this particular one, I\u2019m assuming that the person who is required\u2014I can\u2019t remember if this is something we discussed in select committee, and it definitely is not in the commentary of the select committee. The person who is meant to producing that record or is keeping that record\u2014is that record being kept now by DIA as the single agency, the single supervisor, that\u2019s responsible for all of that? That\u2019s my final question around clause 13. I\u2019m happy, based on the Minister\u2019s response, to move on to subsequent sections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a040d50db0c4a5d8c68659b77d730fc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I call the honourable Minister. But, just before that, can I just say that the noise and the volume of the attempts to close down do bear no relationship to the chance of getting it\u2014can I just remind members. Sorry, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002224cf2b07c863455d8ff343c5bc53b590\u0022 data-id=\u002214931d288fbcf0bead2111d6ad94313f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002224cf2b07c863455d8ff343c5bc53b590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002214931d288fbcf0bead2111d6ad94313f\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for Mental Health) (20:45)\u003C/span\u003E: There is excitement in the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fecb2020caaaa85304efc7412b73d541\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: There is\u2014perhaps because you\u2019re in the chair, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002224cf2b07c863455d8ff343c5bc53b590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205e146e3b1df68eb9f46fd8f6248f256\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY\u003C/span\u003E: Understandably with this legislation\u2014very excitable. I do want to acknowledge Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan with his persistent and detailed questioning. It\u2019s always important to keep Ministers on their toes\u2014always impeccably dressed. When I think of the member Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan, I think of someone who\u2019s ahead of his time in a way, and that\u2019s because the questions he\u2019s just asked are about the bill that will come after this one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022 data-id=\u00221e04e1a7f83a47d6c5237b265cb3fcb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e04e1a7f83a47d6c5237b265cb3fcb9\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central) (20:46)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I wonder if I can move ahead a little bit to a concept that\u2019s been troubling me. That is in new section 67B, inserted by clause 17. I know I\u2019m jumping ahead, but I really want to give officials an opportunity to have a think about this, because it\u2019s got this concept of a stored value instrument, and it\u2019s got this bizarre phrase. It says it\u2019s a \u201Cportable device\u201D. Now, I would have thought my iPhone or Game Boy was a portable device, right? But the use of the word \u201Cportable device\u201D bears no relationship to what it then goes on to say, because it\u2019s \u201Cfor example, a voucher or a casino chip\u201D or something else \u201Cthat can be redeemed for cash\u201D. It might include, in the old days, a cheque or a promissory note as well. It includes gold, silver, precious metals, but doesn\u2019t include a debit card or a credit card.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, with \u201Cportable device\u201D, there\u2019s a real danger, it strikes me, using the phrase \u201Cportable device\u201D, where it just seems to be a random, made-up phrase that bears no resemblance. What it seems to me is it means \u201Cpersonal property, including documents and tokens which can be redeemed for cash.\u201D Now, if that\u2019s what you mean, that\u2019s what you should say, but a \u201Cportable device\u201D just doesn\u2019t mean that. The risk is when you get something which isn\u2019t one of the named things, such as precious metals\u2014when you get, for example, a cash-bearing card which isn\u2019t a recognised debit card; an Air New Zealand travel card, for example, which carries cash on it. Is it a portable device? Well, I don\u2019t know, because I don\u2019t know what a portable device is. If we really mean \u201Cpersonal property, including documents which can be redeemed for cash\u201D, I think that\u2019s probably what we should say, rather than this made-up phrase there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGoing backwards, if I can, to clause 13, amending section 52, which sets out time limits for reporting, there are some strange things that go on there. If I look at the new subsection (2)(b), it says you\u2019ve got to report or provide records \u201C(i) by any specified date given in the notice that the person who requires the records considers reasonable\u2026\u201D. Now, why does it have to be that the person giving the notice requires? It should just say, \u201Cthat is reasonable\u201D. Once again, we\u2019ve got this \u201CWhat the regulator thinks becomes the rule.\u201D Either it\u2019s reasonable or it\u2019s not. The thought processes of the regulator should not affect whether it\u2019s reasonable or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe other point is this: that you\u2019ve got this strange thing going on, because you\u2019ve got any specified date that is reasonable in subsection (2)(b), and when you go to subsection (3), if the production is a matter of urgency, you can require them to be produced as soon as possible.  Now, \u201Cas soon as possible\u201D might be different from any specified date, and it might be later than a specified date. You\u2019ve got a bizarre situation where, if it\u2019s urgent, you\u2019ve got to do it as soon as possible but not on a specified date, whereas if it\u2019s not urgent, you can provide a specified date, which could be tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe whole section is, frankly, a bit of a mess, but the worst thing about it appears to be that, when you\u2019re giving a particular date, it has to be reasonable in the mind of the regulator, and there\u2019s no place for the subjective views of the regulator as to what is reasonable or not in such a situation. I\u2019d appreciate some clarity on both of those things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220fe7508c7b8a47378c4c88fe1ce69fcb\u0022 data-id=\u002249b19e88de5a92e286915ee6680cab4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fe7508c7b8a47378c4c88fe1ce69fcb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249b19e88de5a92e286915ee6680cab4e\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti) (20:50)\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chair. I know we\u2019re stepping through this quite well, but I do want to revisit one of the responses from the Minister in the chair earlier, Matt Doocey, which\u2014I believe he was referring to clause 9, which talks about enhanced customer due diligence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe reason I\u2019m revisiting it is because, frequently, I get feedback from people involved with M\u0101ori incorporations\u2014post-settlement governance entities\u2014about the requirements. While the intention of this bill is to streamline the process, often M\u0101ori governance entities are still encountering the barrier of the onboarding process\u2014i.e., they still all have to attend in person, they\u2019re still fulfilling extra identification requirements because they\u2019re perceived as being high risk, etc.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister tonight is, number one: because, ultimately, it\u2019s still at the bank\u2019s discretion, will there be a move to streamline processes specifically around M\u0101ori governance structures, and will there be a move, whatever decisions are made at the completion of this bill, to enforce these with banks rather than make them at their discretion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226f607d4079164946af0eb589f5753d1b\u0022 data-id=\u00223e2b9627bf758bcdfca8c1bf1ce31074\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f607d4079164946af0eb589f5753d1b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e2b9627bf758bcdfca8c1bf1ce31074\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour) (20:52)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. My question for the Minister in the chair, Brooke van Velden, is around clause 18, the amendments to section 68. This is \u201CReports about movement of cash into or out of New Zealand\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew subsection (4) says, \u201CFor the purposes of this Act, a person is to be treated as having moved cash or stored value instruments out of New Zealand if the person\u2014\u201D, and then there are a number of defining sections: \u201Cintends to leave New Zealand on an aircraft craft or a ship \u2026 goes towards an aircraft or a ship through a Customs-controlled area \u2026 [or] takes cash or stored value instruments into [that] controlled area \u2026 or has cash or stored value instruments in their baggage;\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is whether there was consideration of the fact that this section might be drafted too narrowly and that it could be possible for someone to be moving such cash or stored value instruments either through another person, with or without their knowledge, or in another person\u2019s luggage. The section itself appears to me to be drafted quite strictly. I just want to have the Minister\u2019s views on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI just also did want to make the point that, when the Minister in the chair spoke earlier about the replacement of \u201Ccustomer\u201D with \u201Cperson\u201D, I do agree with that change, because I do think that it recognises that they can be secondary beneficiaries. But, again, it goes to the point that I made earlier: anything in the Act that talks only about \u201Ccustomers\u201D or \u201Cof customers\u201D, effectively, limits that chain, whereas it would be much more beneficial to just leave it open to \u201Cpersons\u201D more generally. I don\u2019t know if the Minister wanted to reflect on that as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn terms of new section 52, inserted by clause 13\u2014this is the one about how records are to be kept\u2014there are some specifics around making records available urgently, and there\u2019s a process in the existing legislation about the individual required to produce the information being able to respond within, I think, 10 working days, but there\u2019s nothing specific about the decision maker needing to consider the response. Just in terms of due process, I\u2019m wondering whether the Minister considered having a more robust process to ensure that the decision maker was considering the response for the production of information before making a decision. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022 data-id=\u0022d84fe34fa37b2ff360557ce399810ba3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d84fe34fa37b2ff360557ce399810ba3\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui) (20:55)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat debate on this question now close\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022 data-id=\u00222aca852aece62830fe0ab0cfab7f30c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222aca852aece62830fe0ab0cfab7f30c7\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour) (20:55)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. There are a few questions which I think have still not been responded to and, I think, a few more clauses in Part 1 to go. In respect of the ones that I\u2019m still waiting for an answer on, the Minister did respond to tell the committee about the definition of \u201Cpolitically exposed person\u201D, but I didn\u2019t receive a response to the reason \u201Caccording to the level of risk\u201D is inserted by clause 10(1), which I think was when the Minister replied to the other response. Also, in clause 11, the deletion of \u201Cand effective\u201D\u2014I\u2019m still waiting for an answer on that, and that goes to the desire to not want it to be watered down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI will skip forward, obviously, because the debate has moved on since I asked the Minister those questions. I just want to check\u2014in respect of clause 19 of this bill, which amends section 69 of the primary Act, there\u2019s an institution here of new subsection (2) and also a reference back to new subsection (1). Now, when I look at the primary Act, there doesn\u2019t appear to be a subsection (1) in section 69. Sometimes, there are subsequent amendments; I think there were, when I was looking at this bill, maybe some unincorporated amendments. That might be why. It would be good to just clarify that, because, if not, it might be important to insert, before (a), a subsection (1) in there to make subsection (2) make sense. If the Minister could get some advice on that. It\u2019s a drafting matter, really. It might be that there\u2019s been an unincorporated amendment from a more recent bill\u2014I think this version was 2025 that I was looking at. That would be helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI also wanted to just go back to\u2014and I know my colleague Vanushi Walters has touched on this slightly in terms of the specificity of new subsection 68(4), inserted by clause 18, but just the purpose here. I mean, it is quite an illustrative subsection, 68(4). You\u2019re imagining a money launderer kind of walking towards an aircraft and they\u2019ve got cash on them and they haven\u2019t made a report. It does seem quite specific, so what I just want to clarify with the Minister is: is the intention here to ensure that before someone actually completes the actual act of that cash or similar value moving outside of New Zealand\u2014is the intention with this clause really to kind of provide for the commission of a crime, I suppose, or for this Act to be breached prior to that actually occurring? The intention of the mischief itself, I suppose, in this particular section appears to occur before the actual act of removing the money or stored value instrument from New Zealand. Some clarity around that would be good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI do have some further questions in relation to clause 20 about accompanied cash, but I\u2019ll just see if the Minister has an answer to some of those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222204e041e14c40fcbec76cc14f0da486\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7e6929202e96eecd7e4d9a74d74e4be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222204e041e14c40fcbec76cc14f0da486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7e6929202e96eecd7e4d9a74d74e4be\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister of Internal Affairs) (20:58)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Look, I\u2019ll respond to a couple of the queries that have come through from the floor. Firstly, there was a question in regard to M\u0101ori governance structures, from Labour. M\u0101ori trusts are already exempted under Class Exemption Notice 2018 Part 2. There was also a previous question in regard to record keeping. Record keeping is required for reporting entities and not supervisors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022 data-id=\u0022672b25792991c82b4d8948b0a7f9c05d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022672b25792991c82b4d8948b0a7f9c05d\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green) (20:59)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair\u2014I will be quick. I guess we do have quite a few quite specific questions, and, again, both this and the next bill are quite technical bills, and I do apologise to the Minister for getting the two bills muddled up, because\u2014well, to be honest, the Minister also did that, so I feel like it\u2019s OK for me to mix the two bills up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI have a question around clause 17, which is \u201CNew section 67B inserted\u201D. The Minister before has mentioned that when it comes to stored value instruments, which is the new insertion that we\u2019re looking at here, it does include non-physical currency\u2014bitcoin, for example, and cryptocurrency is something that is mentioned. The question I want to ask specifically is around, for example, non-fungible tokens (NFTs).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, NFTs are an interesting case study because of the way that it got hyped up and then went away just as quickly. Particularly when it comes to the way that economists explained it, people bought into the hyping up, the inflation, the financialisaton, and it\u2019s very much unmoored from the physical economy. The question with that is: when you have something that gets pushed up, like NFTs, quite significantly, how would we consider that in the context of money-laundering, or using NFTs for the purpose of money-laundering? Again, cryptocurrency and NFTs, like bitcoin, operate quite distinctly, even though some of the underlying technology is similar. I just want to check with the Minister, specifically in the case of the phenomenon that we saw with NFTs, how that would work and what happens when people use that for money-laundering purposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMoving on to clause 20, which is \u201CSection 70 amended\u201D\u2014I know that my colleague Camilla Belich also has a question on that. I want to check specifically with the replaced paragraph (d) when it comes to \u201CUnaccompanied cash\u201D\u2014this is subparagraphs (iii) to (v). It\u2019s the same question I had before regarding when we\u2019re looking at cryptocurrency or when we\u2019re looking at NFTs. I want to check, in terms of the underlying blockchain technology that underpins cryptocurrency but also NFTs, how would that work in conjunction with the reporting requirement that we see here, and at what point of that blockchain, if it can be described as such, would we start seeing some of the requirements there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe follow-up question from that is: when we see things like cryptocurrency and when we see things like NFTs, and, potentially, things overseas could develop quite fast, is what we\u2019ve done here in terms of reporting requirements or any other kind of compliance requirements agile enough to anticipate new forms of stored value instruments? That is my final question to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c91b78197e0beeb1e726992521b95e6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c91b78197e0beeb1e726992521b95e6f\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (21:02)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. My apologies, colleagues, for having to leave the chair, but upon my return, I have a whole lot of notes. I\u2019m going to read these notes out, having not heard the question, and invite those members who do not understand my answer to ask the question again. I don\u2019t know who asked these questions. I\u2019m going to refer to new section 67B, inserted by clause\u00A017.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd5279c3e065fcb2bf1c9668af1e8f70\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I only got here 15 minutes ago as well, so we\u2019re in the same boat on this one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022383ca6428adadc9eb75493158a368f04\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! A portable device captures cards and objects that are not related to debit or credit card mechanisms. The latter includes many of the systems used by cell phones and mobile devices, so are already captured by the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 17, NFIs can do the same with shares, not in and of itself money-laundering. It is for other regulators.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 19(3) does not exist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4bf93c8139161f5765779a248a3025f\u0022\u003EHon Members: \u003C/span\u003EHa, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d6722313d10dde1690d3f41ad4a91a6\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: Just saying!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ESection 69(a) does exist and contains the word \u201Ccash\u201D. It\u2019s a drafting error that can be picked up at proof assent. The error is in clause 19(4): 68 should be 69.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d2737734b291893546d5783f8947dd8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm that clause 19(3) doesn\u2019t exist, so congratulations to whoever asked that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022 data-id=\u00225fe3d4b9472b917a6290978895d403fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225fe3d4b9472b917a6290978895d403fc\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central) (21:04)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much. I just want to ask a couple of questions. I think they might be my final questions for the night. The new section 90A, inserted by clause 25, is the first question: the court must order that recovery from pecuniary penalty be applied to the supervisor\u2019s actual costs. This is a little confusing, because I had a look at some of the cases when I was preparing for this, and the court already orders costs. The court orders court costs at a given rate, which won\u2019t be exactly the costs incurred, but that is in addition to the pecuniary penalty. They get penalty and court costs, and now you\u2019ve got this strange situation where you\u2019re going to take court costs from the pecuniary penalty, so the court might not award additional costs. Has the department, the Associate Minister of Justice, considered the relationship between court-awarded costs, which are routine when these cases are won, and what the relationship will be when you\u2019re saying we\u2019re taking full costs from the penalties imposed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy second point relates to the amendment to section 132 in clause 26, which adds a power to cooperate with foreign counterparts conducting inquiries. Now, this is very tricky, because we have a comprehensive framework for cooperating with foreign Governments on investigations, and it\u2019s the Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters Act 1992. That Act is an important one, because we cooperate with particular Governments whom we trust, and we don\u2019t simply allow our enforcement agencies to be the arm of any foreign Government, for obvious reasons. But here it doesn\u2019t appear that there\u2019s any checks on that. It\u2019s also the case that the Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters Act identifies that some civil proceedings can be treated as if they are criminal. This regime is a classic example where, essentially, you have civil penalties, but it\u2019s a quasi-criminal regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy question is: does the new supervising agency have just unlimited powers to cooperate with North Korea or Russia in money-laundering matters, or is it subject to the Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters Act, which has a very careful regime about how we deal with foreign Governments? I hope it\u2019s the latter, because I wouldn\u2019t want to see decisions about what foreign Governments we cooperate with, essentially, in the hands of people within departments\u2014bureaucrats, for want of a better word\u2014because it\u2019s actually a matter of high national importance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u00221d4810b59a16a95e170a756b2151d74c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d4810b59a16a95e170a756b2151d74c\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (21:08)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. To the member from the Greens, Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan, I actually meant to say \u201CNFTs\u201D, not \u201CNFIs\u201D, when I mentioned before that you can do the same with shares\u2014not in and of itself money-laundering. It was meant to be NFTs that I said, which apparently was the question from that member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETo Dr Duncan Webb, the pecuniary penalties, the supervisors looking to recover penalties and costs\u2014this provision just clarifies that supervisors can bring recovery proceedings to those penalties. In other words, it\u2019s also saying that they themselves are entitled to receive their penalties that have been awarded to them and allowing that. It\u2019s, effectively, bringing the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Act into alignment with similar Acts, such as the Financial Markets Conduct Act, where they too are able to look for costs to be awarded to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 26 is amending section 132. The member spoke about international collaboration, and I guess the thing we\u2019ve all found is that money-laundering is international. It\u2019s coming here. We\u2019ve got drugs coming here, money leaving. We\u2019ve got money transiting through here. In order to stop this worldwide use of the internet, I guess, and other forms of getting money and cash in and out of different countries, we have to collaborate with other countries. This is about improving our international relations, improving our international collaboration, so that we can stamp down on organised crime, stop the illicit trade of drugs and money coming through our country, and be able to work together with other countries to be able to stop that flow transiting through New Zealand. Clause 26, amending section 132, is about improving that international collaboration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a supervisor penalty recovery also in clause 26(2), because it\u2019s not currently clear in section 132 whether the AML supervisors have the power to recover their penalties and costs. We are establishing that in clause 26(2) in order to help with clause 25, providing for court orders\u2014a penalty can be applied to the supervisor\u2019s actual costs that have been incurred, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec507da2307937b39a15f777973610d1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d just note that we have been moving methodically through the bill and the Minister has been engaging, so there\u2019s not that much left to go unless there are further questions, but I will go to Camilla Belich.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea1fa799315da9a0346a0d0fe29163cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea1fa799315da9a0346a0d0fe29163cd\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour) (21:11)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Thank you to the Minister for her engagement on this. There are a few other bits which I think haven\u2019t been covered to date, which I can move through quite quickly under this Part 1 section.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI just have some questions, as I think I indicated earlier, around clause 20, just jumping back there for now. Lawrence Xu-Nan asked some questions about this, so I won\u2019t go into this in too much detail, but I just wanted to check with the Minister that the main purpose of the \u201Caccompanied cash\u201D and \u201Cunaccompanied cash\u201D definitional changes appears to be the change to the definition to ensure that stored value instruments are covered by the accompanied and unaccompanied provisions there, as well; so just some clarification on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThen, I just wondered if we could briefly touch on the civil liability changes that have been included in clause 22. These are adding to the existing civil liability definition, and we\u2019ve been talking about the pecuniary penalties that follow from that, but I just wanted to ask the Minister if this meaning of civil liability\u2014it appears to me to be bolstering this, in providing a few other areas in which the civil liability will be met. I just wanted to check that was the Minister\u2019s understanding\u2014that it was, in fact, expanding that definition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe final question I wanted to ask, which I don\u2019t believe has been touched on, is just to look at the censure process which is outlined in detail in section 80A, and that was changed from section 80 by the select committee. I\u2019m just wanting to understand the process, really, for appeal. There\u2019s quite a detailed process about the imposition of a censure and how that would work. Then, of course, there is a provision here in new section 80B to allow that to be appealed to the District Court. There\u2019s no time frame issued here, so I just wanted to check with the Minister if that was intentional, and what date the appeal would need to be raised if there was an appeal against a censure\u2014obviously, the District Court has its own limitations, but if it was intended to be simply from the date they received that censure or if there were any other applicable time frames, because it doesn\u2019t appear to be as detailed as some of the other provisions in this part. Those were the quick questions that I don\u2019t think have been touched on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u002264b90aed64a9a53a184146e291af7062\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264b90aed64a9a53a184146e291af7062\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (21:13)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you to the member for her questions. With the unaccompanied and accompanied cash at the border\u2014the border cash report\u2014transportation of cash that\u2019s $10,000 or more needs to have a border cash report that\u2019s done, and it\u2019s currently not specified when this report must be made for unaccompanied cash or stored value instruments. The amendment sets the timing requirements that, basically, say that the report has to be made 72 hours before the cash or stored value instrument is moved. This will clarify that the border cash reporting obligations and improved customs enforcement capabilities will actually happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to the civil liability acts that the member mentioned in section 78, all breaches of an obligation are a civil liability act. Section 78 provides a specific list of such breaches. The member asked whether or not we\u2019re making it more rigorous, and we certainly are. The amendment explicitly adds three breaches to the list: failing to submit the suspicious activity report, failing to undertake a risk assessment in accordance with regulations, and failing to submit an annual report to an Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Foreign Terrorism supervisor. Those ones, in themselves, are making it a more robust regime, so that we can capture people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022 data-id=\u0022728c29fd2e372b74ed737a7b87418f1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022728c29fd2e372b74ed737a7b87418f1e\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green) (21:15)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I have one final, tiny question for Part 1, and that\u2019s to do with the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, in the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper, it actually does transfer clause 24 from this bill to the next bill, but the explanatory note says \u201Cto ensure that the provisions relating to censures come into force at the same time\u2026\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoting we can discuss this a little bit later, those two have got two different commencement dates. But it says, \u201Cin that Bill relating to the making secondary legislation.\u201D My understanding is that censures are not secondary legislation. Would that be correct? Or is it secondary legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u002278b25e2f8480d80ac9bc5729dec8f98e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278b25e2f8480d80ac9bc5729dec8f98e\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (21:15)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. My understanding is that we have pieces of secondary legislation that are actually coming into the Act, so, effectively, we\u2019ve got regulations\u2014information sitting in regulations\u2014that we will be taking out of regulations and putting into the Act. That\u2019s why we\u2019re doing this manoeuvring.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022694c3cef004e40d78a26712dce80070d\u0022 data-id=\u002249ab7590ed3ff59cb46063ea57f83122\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022694c3cef004e40d78a26712dce80070d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249ab7590ed3ff59cb46063ea57f83122\u0022\u003ESUZE REDMAYNE (Junior Whip\u2014National) (21:16)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat debate on this question now close\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat debate on this question now close\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5; Ferris.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f81828134ccbb434a0ea0581d5aa331\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to Part 1 set out on Amendment Paper 572 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022db5461f7571718921535ce9725fbf472\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f942ca0d6fd711f82f050d9cfa82f47d\u0022\u003EPart 2 Amendments to secondary legislation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a444791b58ef34253d7bbfdfb9dbe58\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 2. Part 2 is the debate on clauses 29 to 37, \u201CAmendments to secondary legislation\u201D. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022 data-id=\u00224524775fd8df786836f6b2f24420a636\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224524775fd8df786836f6b2f24420a636\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green) (21:18)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I actually only have one question for the Minister regarding Part 2, noting this amendment is secondary legislation but not necessarily a consequential amendment. I just want to check\u2014yes, I did get the right bill this time! I do want to check with the Minister: you just mentioned that, for the censure, for example, it is taking it out of secondary legislation and putting it into primary legislation, and the difference of that being by Order in Council, but also the fact that primary legislation would rightly require a parliamentary instrument or a bill to make any further changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI just want to check with the amendments\u2014the secondary legislation here\u2014if the changes being made are genuinely consequential changes, based on what we\u2019ve done in Part 1, and if not, is there anything in here that has been highlighted, because we\u2019re using a Parliament bill to make changes to secondary legislation? It would also elevate the change to a principal or a primary legislation level. That means that any further changes to things that we\u2019re seeing here in Part 2 will now require another Government bill to change, because they\u2019re no longer secondary, if that makes sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t think I\u2019m explaining myself very well, but yeah, just checking it out. Like, are they consequential to what we saw in Part 1?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u0022114075d084e1ec88decb1633f5990095\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022114075d084e1ec88decb1633f5990095\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (21:19)\u003C/span\u003E: To the member, my understanding is that this was originally a regulatory systems amendment bill (RSAB), so they\u2019re minor, inconsequential changes to tidy up. Effectively, that\u2019s what we were originally going to do\u2014just tidy it up\u2014and we\u2019d put it in the suite of those RSABs that were there. But, because we were doing other changes in order to meet our obligations, we\u2019ve pulled it out. Therefore, my understanding is that the amendments you see here are minor and inconsequential, and if there was anything that was substantial, I would have mentioned it to the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3e362de8791676113d732343b8a3530\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3e362de8791676113d732343b8a3530\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour) (21:20)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Not, obviously, wanting to drag this debate out, I just wanted to double-check the two provisions in Part 2 that I looked into and kind of caught my attention when I was reviewing this, which were: clause 30, which revokes regulation 7; and also clause 33, which revokes regulation 5AA. I know that they\u2019re different sets of regulation. I\u2019ve just had a look at both of them, and I just wanted to double-check with the Associate Minister of Justice that regulation 7 deals with, I think, unaccompanied cash or accompanied cash, and I just wanted to check with her that the reason that that\u2019s been revoked is not actually to lose anything, it\u2019s just because the \u201Ccash\u201D and \u201Cunaccompanied cash\u201D definitions have been included in there. I see the Minister nodding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EA similar question for clause 33 for regulation 5AA. This, I believe, covers the definition of \u201Cbeneficial owner\u201D. Obviously, back to the original beginning of this bill, there is a different definition of \u201Cbeneficial owner\u201D, but, obviously, a new definition. So just wanting to double-check with her that the reason that\u2019s been revoked is because its intention is to be replaced by not a part of the regulations, but part of the primary definition of \u201Cbeneficial owner\u201D within the new Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u0022670797d06a5209730a710e25c080d860\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022670797d06a5209730a710e25c080d860\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (21:21)\u003C/span\u003E: That is correct. We\u2019re, effectively, taking it out of regulations and putting the new definitions into the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022 data-id=\u0022339f8bc9578325a6fccc40618bf7be57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022339f8bc9578325a6fccc40618bf7be57\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui) (21:21)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat debate on this question now close\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002211a5b4910bb8719c0740a3b3f00a7bcf\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d6cc71b4dbe6a250b7214a1e30f26835\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232950537b899056e4ec77d770855ca9e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to our final debate: clauses 1 and 2. This is the debate on clauses 1 and 2, \u201CTitle\u201D and \u201CCommencement\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022 data-id=\u0022513505ca0b891b7809eb1fa52adc92c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022513505ca0b891b7809eb1fa52adc92c8\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green) (21:22)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Just apologising to the Chair, and also the Associate Minister of Justice. Now, I am going to sort of step outside and break the fourth wall of this bill because, again, we\u2019re kind of looking at these two bills\u2014this and the next one\u2014together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll ask it now, so I won\u2019t ask again later on in the next bill. Noting that the commencement date for the two are different: for this bill, the commencement date is the day after Royal assent, but for the next bill, it\u2019s 1 July 2026. I just want to check, if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind, I guess, elaborating on why the different dates and how that would work in terms of the mechanism we\u2019re seeing in the two bills with one being affected ASAP and one being affected in a few months\u2019 time. That\u2019s all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d400b6747ad4317b4564b51bf3e8b1bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d400b6747ad4317b4564b51bf3e8b1bc\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (21:23)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for noticing the two different commencement dates\u2014and there is a reason for it. We can get this one, this particular one, under way the day after Royal assent because we\u2019re making smaller changes and that can be implemented straight away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EWhereas, the next bill, that we\u2019re about to debate, the reason why 1 July is the setting date is because that becomes the date that the Department of Internal Affairs (DIA) will then become the single supervisor. That is also the date where they can start giving out the information to the different agencies on how they can mitigate some of their risk\u2014in other words, give the advice out to industry\u2014and it will all happen from that date. I selected that date in order to have a time where the DIA is the single supervisor, comes through, and can start giving businesses relief.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022 data-id=\u002205d134a494975bd8543adb94ba523709\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205d134a494975bd8543adb94ba523709\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui) (21:24)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat debate on this question now close\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223483ecf3832bb723aa0543e07f9bcfa7\u0022\u003EAnti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism (Supervisor, Levy, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227e957d7a2f121dba5bdda8cbec46585f\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c3db0949623932ece55d9c8a1eed1f8\u0022\u003EPart 1 Amendments to principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240601b5dee5638c7fe602011a0032b3e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism (Supervisor, Levy, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. We start with Part 1. Part 1 is the debate on clauses 4 to 35, \u201CAmendments to the principal Act\u201D. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u0022af6e6d980372f1d2a50e3f7bb9587bdd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af6e6d980372f1d2a50e3f7bb9587bdd\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (21:25)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Now, I started off the last debate by reading out my introduction to this bill\u2014 accidentally, of course\u2014so I won\u2019t go through and read it out again, because you\u2019ve heard it. But there are three substantial changes that we are making within this bill: ensuring that we go from three supervisors down to one, so that we can get relief for industry; introducing a levy, so that we are able to pay for the changes that we\u2019re making to the anti - money-laundering system\u2014changes that will benefit not only the industry but New Zealanders as a whole; and then, finally, other matters, which is just bringing in all the other little bits and pieces that we need to make sure that we have a robust system that fights organised crime and keeps our communities safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThank you to our members for engaging in the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022 data-id=\u002284a231fae66cf83549be5fece9488901\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284a231fae66cf83549be5fece9488901\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green) (21:25)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m going to be asking the same questions I asked previously because, apparently, I also got the wrong bill. Just checking with the Associate Minister of Justice: the question I had before was to do with the regulatory impact statement. This is the one that is entitled, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThe Supervisory Structure of The Anti - Money-Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism System\u003C/span\u003E, and this is page 28 paragraphs 136 and 137.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI won\u2019t repeat the whole thing but just want to check that the Reserve Bank of New Zealand (RBNZ) did not agree with the problem statement, but what I didn\u2019t hear is whether the Minister believed that the depth of analysis is being conducted to a satisfactory level for RBNZ\u2014if there have been any follow-up conversations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to check with the Minister then, because I know that in this bill there is the levy structure, which we\u2019ll talk about later on, but if the levy structure resolves the RBNZ\u2014concerning paragraph 127 of \u201Ccostly and disruptive structural changes\u201D\u2014would that adequately address that? That\u2019s my first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u0022841aca2413c5e8dd34c0499168a7aaad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022841aca2413c5e8dd34c0499168a7aaad\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (21:27)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. My understanding is, with the three supervisors that we had, both the Reserve Bank and the Financial Markets Authority\u2014although, they\u2019re kind of unhappy about losing their role in this\u2014they were each unwilling or unable to be the single supervisor, but they didn\u2019t want to hand over their role either. But the need for a single supervisor was actually really quite clear. The regulatory impact statement was well-founded in its recommendation that the Department of Internal Affairs (DIA) be the ones that are the single supervisor. I can trace the analysis back to our last Financial Action Task Force evaluation and statutory review because it goes that deep.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EWhat I will assure the member of, though, is that both the membership of the Reserve Bank and the Financial Markets Authority has still been working with DIA on how to get and what type of information to get out. So while their anti - money-laundering (AML) teams, as such, will no longer operate as a supervisor, the key people within those agencies have still been working overall with the AML strategy to make sure that the outcomes are still there for everybody.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e641dc4bf8aa41b0bd8a29676c8ba9a6\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7e89255d94fef742b86a868036210d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e641dc4bf8aa41b0bd8a29676c8ba9a6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7e89255d94fef742b86a868036210d8\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East) (21:28)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair and good to be moving on to the second bill, and this being my first call on that. I think, as we\u2019ve referenced a couple of times, there is the potential for confusion between these two bills and so I\u2019m very keen to work quite methodically through the areas covered in this bill, the bigger of the two bills\u2014as indicated by the Associate Minister of Justice in closing remarks on the previous bill\u2014has quite a lot more in it and, therefore, needing a different commencement date to the prior bill, but also needing to work through it quite methodically because there is a lot in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Minister also referenced exactly what this bill does and that that had been profiled at the beginning of her opening remarks on the previous bill. But I just think that one of the areas I really want to dig into is the role of the supervisor and the structure of that. But I think that that\u2019s best considered in the broader context of exactly what this bill is doing in and of itself and in isolation from the other bill that we\u2019ve looked at and examined. So I am just going to step through some of the commentary about what the bill as introduced aims to do, which is to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of New Zealand\u2019s regulatory system for anti - money-laundering and countering the financing of terrorism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, it\u2019s also, though, about reducing those compliance costs and it\u2019s about seeking to simplify how the system is supervised, and those are some of the questions that I will probably start with when I get to them around that new supervisor role and exactly how the system is supervised. What we are seeing is a number of changes both in the way we operate financial markets domestically and internationally, how we need to comply with some of those international treaties or obligations that we are committed to, but also the changing shape of financial transacting, and that\u2019s why these protections are required but it\u2019s also why we need to be certain that we have in place the appropriate supervisory structure to be futureproofed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat simplification argument needs to be examined quite thoroughly in the context of this bill to ensure that there aren\u2019t unintended consequences. It\u2019s good to see here that it also talks about needing to be agile, which I think is very important, especially considering some of those broader risks that I have talked about, but also in terms of a risk-based approach to supervision through changes to anti - money-laundering and counter financing of terrorism (AML/CFT) secondary legislation. The secondary legislation is another thing that that we will need to look at and no doubt there will be a number of questions as we as we step through the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI move to the principal changes made by the bill. One is obviously reducing the number of supervisors in the AML/CFT system from three down to one. That\u2019s a significant change. Another is the strengthening the supervisory powers of the single supervisor to compel interviews, set time frames for the provision of documents and information, and conduct on-site inspections; and also there is the extending of the regulatory powers of the Secretary for Justice, the Commissioner of Police, and the chief executive of the proposed supervisor to make secondary legislation for the system; and there is also the introduction of an industry levy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, this is another part of the bill that we really need to ask a number of questions about and get a really good robust understanding, shared understanding, of exactly where that levy model sits to ensure that we think it is fit for purpose and fit for the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETo jump into the bill, I have a number of questions. Part of this too is to ensure that we actually meet the international obligations that we see both from the Financial Action Task Force, as well as the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act. So it\u2019s not just our own rules and our own standards that we need to meet. It is also those international obligations that we need to ensure we do meet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESo the first questions I have really relate to\u2014and I\u2019m conscious I am running a little short on time, but I\u2019m hoping to get this first question out, which is around Part 1. In Part 1, in clause 5(2), where we\u2019re talking about replacing the definition of \u201CAML/CFT supervisor with\u2014\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb40eb85aab340879622563050ab25fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b6328e86926129585db2b79c039298e\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: Wrap it up. That\u2019s five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e641dc4bf8aa41b0bd8a29676c8ba9a6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d673c01f071325398d5ded7cf1e1475\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: What the other members don\u2019t realise is that if they continue to heckle like that I\u2019ll have to start my sentence again. So clause 5(2)  states, \u201CIn section 5(1), replace the definition of AML/CFT supervisor with: AML/CFTsupervisormeans the public service agency that, with the authority of the Prime Minister, is for the time being responsible for supervising reporting entities under this Act.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThere are a couple of things that I have questions about for the Minister. The first is: why is the agency not named there? I think we all understand who the agency is, but it isn\u2019t explicitly named there, which seems like quite vague language. Then, adding further vague language into that, you also have \u201Cfor the time being\u201D. It\u2019s quite an open-ended addition, and I\u2019m keen to get some clarity from the Minister on exactly what that means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc2485c06fa83c3ee5d3a4a0e6d40a06\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc2485c06fa83c3ee5d3a4a0e6d40a06\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (21:34)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Thank you to the member for his introductory remarks and his questions. The member made mention of not wanting to have unintended consequences from the single supervisor, and I do appreciate that remark, but I think what we\u2019ve found is that for the last 13 years we\u2019ve had unintended consequences from the three supervisors\u2014that being that they\u2019ve not been able to get adequate resources out to industry to tell them what risk they can take. None of us saw that\u2014we weren\u2019t even around then, but it wasn\u2019t seen and it\u2019s become an unintended consequence. Hence why we are moving to a single supervisor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EAs to why we don\u2019t name the Department of Internal Affairs (DIA), if we have a look we\u2019ve had the Reserve Bank, the Financial Markets Authority, the Department of Internal Affairs, and we\u2019re now going to make DIA the single supervisor, but we just don\u2019t know what\u2019s in the future. We don\u2019t know whether Government agencies may change their name or anything like that, so we\u2019re just merely futureproofing so that if there is a name change or if we find there are unintended consequences with it being the DIA and we need to move somewhere else, that we can readily and easily do so. All it is is merely futureproofing for who could be a supervisor in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u00226cf8d0be5d01ede8e1edc97e7075c24a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226cf8d0be5d01ede8e1edc97e7075c24a\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa) (21:36)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I appreciate the Associate Minister of Justice\u2019s remarks about the feedback that was received from industry over the last 13 years about the under-resourcing of the anti - money-laundering (AML) regulators when they were the Reserve Bank, the Financial Markets Authority (FMA), and the Department of Internal Affairs (DIA). It became a series of commentary from industry\u2014say, lawyers, accountants, firms that are affected by AML and have to know their customers and are required under our international obligations to observe, to the Government\u2014that the regulators were under-resourced. This was the thing that gave rise to the ideas about a single regulator. One submitter said, \u201CAs a general observation based on our experience on advising clients on the application of this Act since its inception, the existing supervisors appear to be under-resourced. The benefit of a single super AML regulator could be better, more focused resourcing.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy first question to the Minister around that definition at clause 5(2) is whether at section 5(1) replacing \u201CAML/CFT supervisor\u201D with an open-ended definition that is at the behest of the Prime Minister is in fact giving effect to what industry have been saying for those years. Will this not only improve longevity and an understanding of the industry that there is one supervisor and that it is DIA but also that this supervisor will be appropriately resourced to be able to do the work that is it is required to do across the industries that it is required to regulate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI will come back to this because I think the guts of this bill really is the levy, but we don\u2019t come to that until later in the bill. So we will approach that methodically, as my colleague has said. The question I want to ask the Minister underneath this definitional point is about the fact that DIA is mostly the preferred regulator of those submitters who submitted from a professional services bent\u2014accountants and lawyers, say. That is the regulator they have dealt with. But for other participants in the system, say, fintechs and banks, their regulator has been the FMA. The FMA have a particular set of expertise in here, which never needed to defined in an anti - money-laundering bill because their remit was clear: for the health and oversight of a strong and enduring financial system that was not unnecessarily exposed to risk either from money-laundering or other financial risks that occur because of inadequate supervision. So when the FMA is granting its functions over DIA, which is a part of this bill, are we clear and do we have confidence, Minister, that that expertise is also being transferred over?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe example that I point to here is the FMA bringing a set of practice notes with a particular fintech that was warned and then fined $900,000 for not reporting suspicious transactions. That was done by the FMA\u2019s director of supervision. That director of supervision has expertise in supervising all manner of trusts, not just publicly reporting entities that are covered by AML but also trust entities that have these kinds of reporting obligation under other Acts; say, those trusts that take retail investments and need to report to the people who invest in them. That supervision expertise is a set of expertise which is not just public expertise but also exists in the commercial sector. Supervision expertise is something you can buy and pay for and is well understood within the market. That is something that the FMA have a role in all of the time\u2014in supervising the supervisors and then being the supervisor for funds and for trusts, but that is something that DIA is not in the usual business of doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to ask the Minister about how DIA can play that role for the types of organisations that it is not best set up to cater for, that the FMA was catering for. I agree with her comments that a series of overlapping decisions made it very clear that one regulator would benefit, but, as I\u2019ve said, submitters made the connection there because of the resourcing constraints, not because three regulators who have slightly different remits for slightly different industries was inherently a bad thing. Is DIA well equipped to deal with real estate? I ask this question because from 2020 to 2022 the focus internationally and in New Zealand was on the risk of money-laundering through real estate transactions. That should still be our focus as it is large amounts of money that are laundered in this way. Is DIA well equipped to not only deal with real estate agents but their professional obligations when dealing with real assets and land assets? Is it the supervisor that is best placed to continue their focus that New Zealand owes the rest of the world?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u00220b11b932b9fd249da93b59c1b4452579\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b11b932b9fd249da93b59c1b4452579\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (21:41)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, but I will explain a little bit more. As I mentioned earlier when we talked in the previous bill, the supervisors that were the Financial Markets Authority (FMA) and Reserve Bank, made up of some very skilled people\u2014some of those people are actually moving over into the Department of Internal Affairs\u2019 (DIA\u2019s) anti - money-laundering (AML) team, so we\u2019re not losing that expertise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI mean, part of the problem with the three supervisors is that two of them were legal entities and one wasn\u2019t. This is where part of the conflict came when it was time to actually give out advice because one may be able to give out advice, but it may contradict another\u2019s legal references. In order to have DIA be the single supervisor in things that we capture with FMA and Reserve Bank skilled people sitting on there, and capture the things that they need to still capture, like the example that you gave, but they\u2019re not going to conflict with each other\u2019s Acts when it comes to giving out that information. They can basically nail it, go out there and penalise people who abuse it or who don\u2019t comply with it, but they can also give out that advice that is needed across all of those markets, including the fintechs as well. They will be working together, and I\u2019m really pleased that the team that has come together will have skills and expertise across all three of those previous supervisory roles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022 data-id=\u00228298e94c4d84e1049287f913a1e5ff94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228298e94c4d84e1049287f913a1e5ff94\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green) (21:43)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Thank you, Minister, for that response. That segues nicely into my question, which is on clause 7, \u201CSection 39A amended\u201D, around suspicious activity. Now, I understand that for this particular part, the insertions just in section 39A(b), inserted by clause 7, with the inclusion of additional articles, for example, describing section 67A, which is the prohibition of certain cash transactions, but I want to check with the Associate Minister of Justice that while we\u2019re going from three supervisors to one\u2014and I actually want to thank Dr David Wilson for his guidance around this and he may be able to speak more to this particular point\u2014one of the missing links in all of this is the role of banks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c2b0e725cd3130341fe4c35fe340b91\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Yep.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022951f8bdc70adfea96085dc9d9b9f1ad8\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, a lot of that because, again, if when we are looking at three to one, what is the Department of Internal Affairs\u2019 (DIA\u2019s) role in reinforcing or holding banks accountable for ensuring that their processes are up to speed and that they don\u2019t have sort of, like, bank accounts on their books that have been used to facilitate some of the transactions? I noticed that a lot of the things to do with scams etc., do go through a bank account. So when we\u2019re reporting suspicious activities, I just want to know from the Minister whether there\u2019s any consideration of the role of banks in all of this and how they are being held accountable, or how their processes are being held accountable, for any of these activities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe next question I have is also with suspicious activity, and I referenced this in the second reading of my speech, which is that recently, in France, we saw the landmark case with the Lafarge cement company, which has been charged with financing terrorism in Syria and adjacent areas. Lafarge cement is now a subsidiary of the Swiss cement company Holcim, which also operates here in Aotearoa New Zealand. I guess the question there is, when we\u2019re looking at suspicious activities, how broad are we able to go when we\u2019re looking at the broader potential parent company or subsidiary of the parent company that operates in another jurisdiction, where, potentially, we just simply don\u2019t know how they can be linked to a reporting entity or for a person conducting a transaction here in New Zealand? Are there any thoughts that you might have, any sort of advice you\u2019ve taken from DIA, or any other things that you\u2019re working together on in this new area on how we can address that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u002248de3609a93180ad10212d336a880a84\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248de3609a93180ad10212d336a880a84\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (21:45)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I thank the member for his question. There\u2019s a lot of operational detail in there that we would never cover in legislation, but I think if I can answer in this way\u2014and hopefully it answers your question\u2014part of the funding for the levy is to also fund the FIU, which is the Financial Investigation Unit of the New Zealand Police. When the member talks about if we see crime occurring or a bank sees crime occurring, and he\u2019s asking about parent companies, etc.; that\u2019s where I expect the FIU would be able to step in and take any potential criminal cases that occur from the money-laundering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, when we went out for the discussions with the banks on the levy\u2014well, not just the banks; we went out to everybody to talk to them about the levy and who would pay what and whether or not it was fair, and those discussions have been had and feedback given\u2014we were looking at proportioning part of the levy based on who has the highest rate of, perhaps, potential laundered money going through their system. For example, banks will have more money going through and being laundered through their system then, say, your average real estate agent, so we\u2019re looking at ensuring that the correct amount is being paid in the correct places. But then the question that remained was, \u201CWell, we\u2019re now paying this amount, so what are we getting for it?\u201D This is why we\u2019ve gone out for consultation, because we\u2019ve basically said to the industry, \u201CWhat do you need in order to operate well? What do you need to be able to mitigate the financial risks that are being undertaken, but also go after the organised crime?\u201D The people that were consulted with came back and said, \u201CWell, we really need the FIU to also be well funded because it\u2019s one thing to stop these transactions, but if we don\u2019t stop it from where it\u2019s originating or even, you know, put some effort into that, it\u2019s just going to keep reoccurring.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe levy will help pay for the investigation of the criminal activity that comes from those suspicious activity reports that are given to the Police. I hope that answers the question of what happens with the flow-on effect once those suspicious activity reports\u2014or SARS, as we call them\u2014get reported. We do have the other avenues. It\u2019s one thing for the supervisor to give advice, but we also have the FIU in there, which is going to take on the criminal activity that comes from that as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e641dc4bf8aa41b0bd8a29676c8ba9a6\u0022 data-id=\u00229dcf19f84d47ec65a741be5610862757\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e641dc4bf8aa41b0bd8a29676c8ba9a6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229dcf19f84d47ec65a741be5610862757\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East) (21:48)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Now, please don\u2019t take this as suspicious activity, but I do want to take a step slightly backwards from where we were in the suspicious activity. I wanted to come to Part 1, clause 6, \u201CSection 16 amended\u201D, which is around the standard customer due diligence and verification of identity requirements. In clause 6(1A), \u201CSubsection (1)(b) and (c) does not require a reporting entity to take steps to verify any information obtained under section 15(d).\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, we\u2019ve talked a lot, in various speeches, around the futureproof intent of this bill. A lot of what we\u2019re talking about there is new ways of transacting and new ways of moving money about, potentially and particularly in new industries and new sectors who choose to transact in different ways, be that domestically or internationally. I guess what they\u2019re looking for, there, is fast and frictionless ways to transact, and that can be beneficial for a number of ways where you are moving money or currency around. But from a knowing-your-customer perspective and particularly looking at that clause\u00A06(1), inserting new subsection 16(1A), the question here is then: does it have fingerprints?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIf things become too fast and too frictionless, then the lack of fingerprints, or the lack of identification or the ability to be able to identify, becomes more challenging. But also, if, in this Act, we\u2019ve made that ambiguous or vague or haven\u2019t really made that a watertight provision, then the question really for the Minister is: are you confident that you will still be able to get done what you need to be done, but you will still be able to identify or verify the information that\u2019s been obtained? But, similarly, do you believe that it will meet the international obligations that we\u2019ve signed up to, so that what you\u2019re putting into the bill here is actually robust enough to be able to capture that information that you would need?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4f8bce5c64eaf546c47743a010b819c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4f8bce5c64eaf546c47743a010b819c\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (21:51)\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the question, yes, we do believe it\u2019s robust enough. We think all the changes that we\u2019ve made in here will please the Financial Action Task Force (FATF) and will demonstrate to them that we are committed to making the changes that they requested of us back in 2021. All of the changes that you see here contribute to that next FATF evaluation that is upcoming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI understand why the member raises questions about this particular section being amended: section 16, amended by clause 6. This is in order to ensure that those people\u2014perhaps if I give an example: you\u2019ve been with a bank for 40 years, you\u2019ve just gone in and you\u2019ve not remortgaged but maybe reset the mortgage on your bank, and then you want to go back and get a loan or an overdraft, for example, and then the bank requires you to verify your identity all over again, even though you just did all of that with them when you reset your mortgage, because you hadn\u2019t set it for 20 years. You just provided it to them. You\u2019re the same person; you\u2019ve got the same photo ID. It\u2019s basically saying to the bank, you don\u2019t have to go through all of that again because you\u2019ve just done it\u2014so allowing them to understand and mitigate those risks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s going to be, I think, a lot easier for the banks dealing with customers who are getting very irate with them saying, \u201CWhy do I have to do this every single time I come in, when I just gave it to you the other week?\u201D It\u2019s really hard because the bank then don\u2019t\u2014they, basically, don\u2019t say this is an anti - money laundering requirement. I hear the banks actually just say, \u201CLook, I have to do this.\u201D It\u2019s taking pressure away from both of them and making sure that we\u2019re not just wasting time having to do the same thing over and over, but also ensuring that where there is a change, the banks can ask for the information all over again, but where it\u2019s not needed, allow them to not have to ask for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022694c3cef004e40d78a26712dce80070d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226788b37dd20095cddd1b4a7449c2e6c\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022440a125e85954bae9f5d470b7551e4f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f97c1f4c128888613b20c136bd882053\u0022\u003ECameron Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ccd73e60279c892ec8b39bbe61086ae\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: We are a bit early for closure motions, so I hope this is not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022694c3cef004e40d78a26712dce80070d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b63e4ef5bc032139a3f76cfd904cb432\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a7ac5d73728dd06724f1d15865c546a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Arena Williams\u2014I appreciate the enthusiasm, though.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u0022a519664b7b451389aa30f4f1a2f53ade\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a519664b7b451389aa30f4f1a2f53ade\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa) (21:53)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Following up on the Associate Minister of Justice\u2019s contribution there, it\u2019s really useful to have their context that this isn\u2019t intended to capture, say, a refixing of a mortgage scenario, but clause 6, amending section 16\u2014at the top of page 6\u2014does apply to all registered entities. When we think about the context of, say, a real estate situation which might hinge on section 15(d), which is the address requirements of the standard customer due diligence (CDD), you then look to the original section 16 of the Act, which gives the option for a registered entity to take reasonable steps to satisfy itself that the information under that section is correct, and, according to the level of risk involved, take reasonable steps to verify the beneficial owner\u2019s identity. My question for the Minister is: does the effect of her new subsection 16(1A) mean that real estate agents won\u2019t need to verify that someone\u2019s address information is right? Are they entitled to rely upon address information provided by a buyer or seller as correct information? For lawyers as well\u2014this is an important part of their CDD\u2014is it the case that they no longer have to verify the information about address provided to them by a client? Is it the case that they can rely upon the information provided to them in the first instance as correct information?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis is also relevant in the financial services sector\u2014not in those banks and entities with very mature systems for knowing their customers; these are long term, and they also hinge, for most of our banking institutions, on those requirements in Australia which are more stringent around CDD. But for those smaller institutions where they might be thinking that they are entitled to rely on the documents provided to them by a customer about their address information, but the law actually requires them to be sure of that presently, and now in the future seemingly won\u2019t require them to do that\u2014is that actually to change the law for those smaller entities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI also want to use the final minutes that I have to flag a question I have for the Minister around clause 7, paragraph (a)(ii) of amended section 39A. Is it the intention of the Minister to limit the meaning of \u201Csuspicious activity\u201D to things which are in fact criminal activity? You can imagine plenty of scenarios where, as she has said, this regime applies to say gold dealers or jewellery dealers. Does the section apply to people who notice a series of transactions by someone who they might not expect to be in possession of a large amount of money, through goods which are often associated with money-laundering\u2014say, cars, boats, gold? And is it the case that, actually, what they\u2019re looking for is the actual criminal activity rather than transactions which might otherwise ping their radar as things which might be associated with that kind of suspicious activity? I can understand the value judgments that would be associated with doing that, but my question is, really: does that meet our international obligations in requiring a further identification of these kinds of transactions? Because there\u2019s a big difference between somebody who is visiting their local pawn shop and is pawning lots of items and regularly\u2014that is not in any way prohibited under any of these Acts, but it might lead you to suspect that there might be an enforcement issue of the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Act 2009.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThose are two separate questions, but I think we can cover off that clause 6 and move on to the various meanings in clause 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u00225b6b15a3b7a4f711d97ca888fdee0dd8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b6b15a3b7a4f711d97ca888fdee0dd8\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (21:58)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. If I address that last question by the member Arena Williams first. The inclusion of jewellery; watches; gold, silver, or other precious metals; diamonds, sapphires, or other precious stones; motor vehicles, ships\u2014the new definition doesn\u2019t expand on obligations of those current reporting entities. In fact, we\u2019ve put this in here because industry have asked us to. Effectively, the suspicious activity reports couldn\u2019t be filed on these things that they are finding money being laundered in purchasing. They said, \u201CCould you please put it in so that way we can do suspicious activity reporting on those particular things.\u201D That\u2019s why that is there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe member asked, as an example, about lawyers, real estate agents, accountants, etc.\u2014who\u2019s going to be doing reporting? That advice is going to come from the supervisors. The supervisor\u2019s going to have a look at where the risk is, when they talk with industry as part of their discussion on who\u2019s going to do what. They\u2019ve been communicating with industry over who has what information, where it is best needed and regarded, and then they will give out their advice\u2014I\u2019m hoping\u2014on 1 July, or not far after, as to who has to do what. I\u2019m just giving them the highway to be able to make those changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfb0db06d78789074ff8b27d0cfdb25e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members the time has come for me to leave the Chair. The committee will resume tomorrow at 9\u00A0a.m. \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EP\u014D m\u0101rie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterItalicsCentred\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 10 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002270541cd774eaef898bf52ba298498a68\u0022\u003EExtended Sitting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a928c30b30203e39c7c8cfccf61390d7\u0022\u003EWednesday, 29 April 2026\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002253b5b63c7c7e0034f468a09269e07df7\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002219c9ff77a4899e57f3f87f2c6e0e3797\u0022\u003EAnti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism (Supervisor, Levy, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fd8a04af341b22502fc6a22481585bca\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000646\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e95015925564e74f9e67925529a20ca9\u0022\u003EPart 1 Amendments to principal Act (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220bc42d7030f91aef3e34a9dc5480e94\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Good morning, members. The committee is resumed. When we suspended last night, we were debating Part 1 of the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism (Supervisor, Levy, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. This is the debate on clauses 4 to 35, \u201CAmendments to principal Act\u201D. The question again is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u002269aec9220fc1b893b78a225f680c054f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269aec9220fc1b893b78a225f680c054f\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa) (09:00)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Last night, we had a really helpful back and forth with the Minister around what kind of transactions would be covered by reporting entities and by people who may report suspicious activity. It was very helpful to hear from the Minister that the provision at new section 40A, I think she referred to, and at 39A(b)(i), amended by clause 7, came from feedback from the industry. I\u2019m interested in this power for people who may report suspicious activity and whether that should be a requirement on them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESection 67A in the original Act is the powers that relate to things like gold, silver, jewellery. You might envision a situation with shops that are trading in physical goods, where a person is transacting large amounts of money but over a longer period of time than one transaction that might give rise to suspicion. My question was, for the Minister\u2014that\u2019s not what I\u2019d anticipated, because the old Act does provide for provisions that relate to trade in gold and silver. But this \u201Cmay report suspicious activity\u201D wasn\u2019t, I thought, a higher requirement or something that a requirement would be put on the sellers of these to provide information to the supervisor around suspicious activity. Can she just clarify whether her new section 40A steps back the requirement on sellers of these goods to report suspicious transactions or whether that is a new power that provides a way into the scheme, which is I think what she said last night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy other question is around her clause 7. We were on (ii) last night when we were\u2014the questions are around at what point we are capturing the suspicious activity in a transaction that relates to one of these things which is mentioned in the actual legal Act. Any transaction which is covered by those Acts is illegal. The anti - money-laundering provisions step further into those transactions where you might need to report something that is suspicious or you might need to report something which would lead to illegal activity but is not in itself illegal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBut the wording of (ii) seems to be now a higher standard than what it was. \u201CReasonable grounds to suspect\u201D, and just these offences, is a broader definition than simply \u201Ca suspicious activity\u201D. The natural meaning of \u201Csuspicious activity\u201D is being limited here. The things which you have reasonable grounds to suspect are leading to those illegal activities. \u201CWhat is the extra power here?\u201D, is the question. Any sort of transaction which you reasonably suspected was to aid transactions which were prohibited transactions under the Misuse of Drugs Act, like dealing, would be illegal in and of themselves, so what is it extra here that is being asked of people who are either reporting entities or these extra people who are dealing in the things which are set out at 67A of the original Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think where we got to last night was a little bit of a better understanding about those Acts being the things that will give rise to the grounds for suspicion, but not necessarily what is extra from stepping back into a transaction or stepping after a transaction has occurred for the proceeds of a crime. Both of those parts of the transaction are meant to be captured by international obligations under anti - money-laundering arrangements that we make with the rest of the world. Are our obligations that are owed to the international community being met here by what I think is a tightening up of the definition of \u201Csuspicious activity\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d80bd0230dab71f547a941f9c58192da\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry, Minister. I\u2019d just point out to members that we\u2019re not very tolerant of repetition. I note that that member asked a very similar question last night. But if the Minister is happy to take a call\u2014the Hon Nicole McKee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a40b16f1c92e40c265d7ed64b66af1b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a40b16f1c92e40c265d7ed64b66af1b7\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (09:04)\u003C/span\u003E: Thanks, Madam Chair. I was about to say that I think I did cover this all last night, but I\u2019ll just give a little bit more if it helps the member. There is now the requirement that if somebody presents with over $10,000 to purchase something, a suspicious activity report now needs to be filled out. Now, before that $10,000 limit was put in, a lot of these agencies were already giving suspicious activity reports, but once we had the $10,000 limit, they weren\u2019t required to do so. Effectively, we are putting in the ability for these agencies to be able to continue to deliver a suspicious activity report. It won\u2019t expand on obligations for the current reporting entities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAs I\u2019ve mentioned, it was requested by industry. To give examples of some of the businesses that might be caught up in this, it includes auction houses\u2014like Turners, for example\u2014or any dealership for either new or used motor vehicles. But mainly we have changed this purely because industry had asked for it. These people used to be able to give SARs\u2014the suspicious activity reports. We\u2019re basically saying if they want to continue to do that, we\u2019re allowing them to do it. We\u2019re not mandatorily making it that they have to, but they\u2019ve requested that ability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOf course, what comes with that is the anonymity, the ability for them to be able to report but still keep confidential their own reporting system, I guess is what we\u2019re saying. With a suspicious activity report, they can report to the police, to the Financial Intelligence Unit (FIU), to say, \u201CWe\u2019ve had somebody come in with $12,000 cash. We think that it might be drug money, but we\u2019re going to report it, and then we will just step back.\u201D, because it will ensure, through SAR, that their details are kept confidential, therefore keeping them safe. This will allow more people, as I mentioned last night, to be able to give those SARs to the FIU.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e641dc4bf8aa41b0bd8a29676c8ba9a6\u0022 data-id=\u0022d97c8ee697c73ed0874fe3b5d3ba4c42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e641dc4bf8aa41b0bd8a29676c8ba9a6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d97c8ee697c73ed0874fe3b5d3ba4c42\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East) (09:07)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s good to have the further opportunity today to continue to work our way through this bill, particularly in the context of it being one of two bills and there being the potential for items covered in either to be conflated or confused through the process. It is good, and I thank the Minister for both her time last evening in the limited time we had to get started on working through this, the second of the two bills, but also to continue stepping through that this morning. Appreciating your guidance, Madam Chair, on needing to maintain the forward momentum and moving through the bill rather than duplicating questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOn that note, I\u2019m really keen to move forward down into clause 11, which deals with the amendments to the annual anti - money-laundering and countering the financing of terrorism (AML/CFT) report, specifically looking at clause 11(3), inserting 60(2)(d), where it speaks to providing \u201Cany sector-specific information required by the AML/CFT supervisor under rules made under section 156B\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe question here, really, is around the sector-specific terminology and whether there\u2019s a risk or a potential risk here in allowing reporting entities to not, in effect, write their own reports but potentially to create the reporting structure by which they\u2019ll be held accountable. Obviously, if you were dealing only with good operators, then that wouldn\u2019t be a risk at all, or the risks would be far more minimal. But the nature of this bill, which is to comply with those international obligations we have but also to ensure that we are creating a framework that catches and prevents money-laundering and illegal transactions and transacting\u2014then the concern would be that if you\u2019ve got a less than fully honest or a dishonest operator, the ability for them to provide that sector-specific information could potentially unfairly weight the scenario to their benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETherefore, it could make it very difficult for the bill to capture their activity with any degree of illegality, because they know their area of operation better than anybody else, and they have, effectively, structured the rules and guidelines around how they\u2019re going to operate, but also, more importantly, how that\u2019s going to be monitored or measured for breaches enforced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EReally, the question to the Minister on that is: what thought has gone into preventing that happening around that provision of sector-specific information by the sectors affected by this clause in the bill? Is there a monitoring or review provision there to keep a watch on that specific element of this bill? Was there any specific advice received around whether that was adequate framework to not just detect, because that would be a retrospective step, but to actually stop people being able to evade this component, this function of the bill by creating, in effect, their own report card that they can comply with but that allows them to continue activity that would be legal or less than desirable?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u002278b2951b9c7b43b44b7d2949f173b148\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278b2951b9c7b43b44b7d2949f173b148\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (09:11)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. The reporting structure is going to be set by the Department of Internal Affairs (DIA), and the annual reporting requirements are currently prescribed within regulations. This amendment is going to allow greater flexibility for the supervisor to issue rules in areas where it\u2019s different or better information might be required. The DIA may add in sector-specific rules depending on what that sector is. For example, if we think about the virtual currency area, that\u2019s always evolving, so it\u2019s allowing the DIA to be able to set rules as things change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe reporting entities themselves cannot pick and choose what they will be reporting on; it will be set by the DIA, and they may alter those requirements by sector. They might say the banks, for example, might have one rule that they have to abide by, and a lawyer might have something else because their dealing with it is a little bit different. It\u2019s allowing the DIA to be able to move these rules as things around us, the modernisation of organised crime, and how quickly they manoeuvre also changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022 data-id=\u002286be72cdb52215a8e046b7dc5fe6cc1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286be72cdb52215a8e046b7dc5fe6cc1e\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui) (09:12)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat debate on this question now close\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f86bc3c4ff0b4227e3761411e18f7caa\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s very optimistic of you, Mr Bates. We\u2019re not quite there yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e641dc4bf8aa41b0bd8a29676c8ba9a6\u0022 data-id=\u00227e7924beb9393692ca96c96bda05d7ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e641dc4bf8aa41b0bd8a29676c8ba9a6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e7924beb9393692ca96c96bda05d7ca\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East) (09:12)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ll confess to being an optimist too, and an optimist who wants to continue the forward momentum through the bill, but, at this stage, as far as Part 1, clause 13, replacing section 64, which is where we get into the subject matter around the \u201Cchief executive of AML/CFT supervisor may make codes of practice\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESpecifically, I wanted to look at subsection (3)(a) and (b) of the replaced section 64, in clause 13. What we\u2019ve got here is, for context, \u201CThe purpose of a code of practice is to provide a statement of practice that assists reporting entities to comply with their obligations under this Act, regulations, notices, and rules.\u201D Then we step into (3), where it says, \u201CBefore making a code of practice, the chief executive must consult\u201D, and then struck out is \u201Cany persons, or representatives of the persons, that the chief executive thinks will be substantially affected by the code of practice.\u201D That has now been replaced with 3(a), which reads \u201Cthe persons or bodies that the chief executive considers may be affected by the proposed code of practice;\u201D. The shift from \u201Cthinks\u201D to \u201Cconsiders\u201D in and of itself, is arguably immaterial, but it is a change. I\u2019m curious to know what the thinking is behind the change of shifting that from \u201Cthinks\u201D to \u201Cconsiders\u201D. Is that something that came through in official guidance? Is that, in the Minister\u2019s opinion, a weakening or a strengthening of the regulation or the new clause? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAlso here, there\u2019s the addition of 3(b), which lists \u201CThe Minister.\u201D It adds the Minister\u2014the chief executive must consult the Minister. For me, that\u2019s an interesting change because, it could be argued, that that puts the Minister in a position\u2014depending on the number of codes of practice\u2014of needing to, I wouldn\u2019t use the words \u201Cmicro-manage\u201D, but potentially needing to be consulted a lot more than they would have under the previous terminology. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt also puts the Minister in a position of needing to be across all of the detail all of the time, because it\u2019s spelt out in black and white in the legislation that they have to be across that. That also runs the risk of slowing that process down, and the issue there would be, as the Minister has explained in previous answers this morning, the need for this legislation to be nimble and efficient and effective to keep pace with the speed of change that we\u2019re seeing both in trading and in technology. Adding this extra step and this additional ministerial responsibility does, in my mind, pose the risk that the legislation is therefore less nimble and less able to pivot to meet the rapid pace of change that we\u2019re seeing and likely to see an increase in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe question to the Minister there is: does the Minister think that will slow down the ability for legislation to be match fit in a rapidly changing environment? More broadly, I guess, where did the notion of adding the Minister into the list of entities that needed to be consulted come from? Was that a thought of the Minister\u2019s, or was that something that came through in official advice? A detailed question but a drafting question here is why (3)(a) and (b) needed to sit separately, and whether or not the Minister could simply have been added as an addition to the list of (3)(a). By singling out the Minister and making it separate and standalone, it certainly caught my eye when I worked my way through questions in the legislation. I\u2019m curious to know why that needs to sit out and separate from (3)(a) where it could simply have just been an additional word at the end. So those are my questions on that clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u002287eff4f8ee644ded3d0fa036e7ab8da9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287eff4f8ee644ded3d0fa036e7ab8da9\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (09:17)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I think I\u2019ll just take this opportunity, first of all, to speak to Amendment Paper 573, which is on the Table. It\u2019s the only Amendment Paper that I\u2019ve put in place here. I just want to explain that this Amendment Paper is taking some clauses in the bill that we discussed last evening out of that bill and placing them into this bill. It was a transfer of clauses from one bill into another, and, effectively, it\u2019s removing some aspects that are in regulations, because we are putting them into the Act. I thought I\u2019d just explain Amendment Paper 573 that\u2019s been put up from the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESpeaking to the member\u2019s question on clause 13: having a Minister involved with oversight is not an unusual thing. I think, most importantly, this is about the codes and the guidance. The guidance is not going to be binding on people; it is just guidance. These are the codes of practice, and they\u2019ll remain in secondary legislation; they won\u2019t come forward into the Act, because they need to be moveable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhere did this come from? I\u2019m advised that the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee amended consultation requirements in order to make it consistent and simpler, as the codes are not binding instruments, then they are closer to the guidance. Amendments that you will have seen within this paper actually came out of the select committee and I thank them for their consideration and for making the bill simpler as a result. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce966c1660dcd92e82060929242f56f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce966c1660dcd92e82060929242f56f8\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa) (09:19)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate the Minister bringing the committee\u2019s attention to her Amendment Paper slotting in new clause 17A. The censures\u2014she\u2019s right. I\u2019ve had a look at where they were in the creature of regulation\u2014where they might have been if you were a body like the Financial Markets Authority. Obviously, one new supervisor needs a legislatively empowered single exercise of its soft power to give instructions. What that\u2019s like, though, is really different across lots of different public entities, and I\u2019m keen to understand that from the Minister. What were these modelled on?  Are these like Inland Revenue\u2019s powers? Are they more like the Privacy Commissioner\u2019s powers? Because they\u2019re not censures that have an associated enforcement infringement fee or a fine. They don\u2019t seem to have a public record element, either. Often, a feature of censure notices or advice-finding guidance is that it is public and so there is a precedent-setting element of it that makes it fair and it builds public trust in them. Is that what\u2019s intended here? That could be something that\u2019s intended here, but that would be provided for in the regulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA second species of question about these censures is: what were they before? Is this tidying up a problem in the regulation in that we did have either the Reserve Bank of New Zealand or the Department of Internal Affairs, but I suspect it was the Financial Markets Authority, providing guidance to businesses that wasn\u2019t necessarily empowered by a piece of primary legislation about anti - money-laundering compliance. In the case which I\u2019ve raised with her, where a fintech was notified multiple times\u2014what were those notifications if they weren\u2019t censures? What was the legal status of those? And are we tidying up a problem in the law here which is real\u2014that if you have an agency giving guidance, somebody on the receiving end of the guidance should be able to clearly see whether that is binding, whether it\u2019s enforceable, whether it constitutes an infringement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe get ourselves into the same sort of issue here, because I can\u2019t see that her new powers create a, sort of, stick element, with the carrot of being offered some helpful guidance. I want her to help me to understand: is that coming in the regulation or are these meant to be a softly, softly, soft power? In which case, which other agency has a similar power that she\u2019s based these on? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u002256aae8b628835d601102efbce2b9da4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256aae8b628835d601102efbce2b9da4f\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (09:22)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Clauses 17A and 17B set out on Amendment Paper 573 are creating a new supervisory power to censure. This is because we were effectively seeing that we will create guidance and expect the agencies to operate within those guidelines, but if they don\u2019t, then\u2014as the member had pointed out\u2014where was the stick? The stick is the ability to censure, in writing, with those agencies that are not complying. The supervisor would be able to issue a notice of intention to issue a censure, and the person who receives it will have 10 working days within which to respond to that. What formal warnings that we\u2019ve had do not have much of that deterrent impact, but the next layers of the court-ordered enforcement options significantly do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t know so much if it\u2019s more \u201Csoftly, softly\u201D. I would see it more along the lines of, the Department of Internal Affairs will be coming out, they\u2019ll be issuing guidance; we need to allow the agencies the ability to figure out how to work within that guidance, and if they\u2019re not, issue a censure; and if they continue to not fulfil their obligations, then there can be court-ordered structure after that. It\u2019s more about just helping them get through what it is that they need to do in order to comply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u0022691b6127672f823001a139342e4c11c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022691b6127672f823001a139342e4c11c2\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa) (09:23)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Just a quick question on that: is this intended to relate to licensing requirements, then? Is it the case that someone who has been censured might lose their licence to operate, say, the Financial Markets Authority might have already given the fintech in question two different kinds of operating licences? Is it professional conduct rather than infringements that you\u2019re relying on, and so you might assume that the regulations would then tie that to licensing? Or is it the case that someone could have been censured five times in the same year and would still be able to operate under a licensee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u00227abda236a790732f4ccbcd61284a80f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227abda236a790732f4ccbcd61284a80f7\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (09:24)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a very good point that the member raises, and the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee raised something similar. They basically said that they had concerns that censures are typically penalties that follow evidential findings on conduct. They wanted the provision amended to instead introduce censure as a separate sanction with a robust process for issuance, and that takes into account the natural justice requirements, but the formal warnings will also still stay in place. We have made these amendments\u2014based, again, on excellent select committee suggestions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e641dc4bf8aa41b0bd8a29676c8ba9a6\u0022 data-id=\u002269693df538f1e5462a82bf8723c6779e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e641dc4bf8aa41b0bd8a29676c8ba9a6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269693df538f1e5462a82bf8723c6779e\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East) (09:25)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the Associate Minister of Justice for those answers on those previous questions. Continuing to move through and coming to Part 1, clause 20, \u201CSection 131 replaced\u201D, where we go through the functions. Just to step through these, because there are a number of functions that the anti - money-laundering/countering financing of terrorism supervisor needs to take, and I just wanted to step through each of these and have some questions specifically about those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe first, being new section 131(a), is \u201Cmonitor and assess the level of risk of money-laundering and the financing of terrorism, including through providing risk assessments and intelligence to the Commissioner and reporting entities\u201D. That seems to make sense, but we\u2019re looking at all of this, sort of, shopping list of responsibilities that previously were held by three entities and are now going to be the responsibility of a single entity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s kind of, as we step through these responsibilities, two questions\u2014the first being: how do these differ, or do they differ, from the previous responsibilities of the three entities? And secondly, when you merge and reword a number of responsibilities, there is always a risk that some may have failed to be included, or that the rewording or restructuring of those responsibilities and the way in which they are accounted for changes the interpretation or the reality of what is included in the\u2014for want of a better term\u2014shopping list of responsibilities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETo move to new section 131(b): \u201Cmonitor reporting entities for compliance with this Act and regulations, and for this purpose to develop and implement a supervisory programme: (c) provide timely and up-to-date guidance to reporting entities to assist compliance with this Act, regulations, and rules: (d) investigate reporting entities and enforce compliance\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f85af5806c389e244e2f341c454e900b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The member can assume that we can read this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e641dc4bf8aa41b0bd8a29676c8ba9a6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f857d5fe7a588a6ae0b602e16605ad8\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: OK, excellent. That is great. So, then, the questions really are around the inclusions in clauses (a), (b), (c), (d), (e), (f), (g), (h), (i), and (j). The question, to come back to it, which I framed at the top of this contribution, was: how do these differ from what was previously accounted for, given that what was previously three separate functions is now rolled into one? How does that differ? What assurance does the Minister have that nothing has fallen out in that consolidation process? And, also, what wording changes are there that could potentially cause confusion or provide opportunity for someone to claim confusion in their interpretation of what is included in this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u00229f813b3824ec651c1ab07f42c14d277c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f813b3824ec651c1ab07f42c14d277c\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (09:28)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, when we\u2019re trying to cut red tape and make things easier, we certainly don\u2019t want any confusion. I feel confident that we have mitigated that within this bill. The status quo still stands within this clause, but there have been three additions that have been made for the single supervisor. The additions include direction that the guidance for reporting entities should be timely and up to date, and assist with their ability to comply with the law; a requirement to engage with industry to identify and mitigate unintended consequences\u2014which the member spoke to before\u2014of the entire anti - money-laundering and coutnering the financing of terrorism (AML/CFT) system; and mandating to assist New Zealand to meet its international requirements under the AML/CFT regime, as well. So just those three additions; everything else is still the status quo, just moved into the single supervisor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e641dc4bf8aa41b0bd8a29676c8ba9a6\u0022 data-id=\u0022b04c5482b073a5637327d593e0e3a3ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e641dc4bf8aa41b0bd8a29676c8ba9a6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b04c5482b073a5637327d593e0e3a3ca\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East) (09:29)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you to the Associate Minister of Justice for that excellent answer. Moving into clause 21(5): here, it talks about\u2014(5)(ba): \u201Crequire any person whom the AML/CFT supervisor reasonably suspects has knowledge of a possible contravention of this Act or regulations to attend a meeting\u201D. What we\u2019re talking about here are actions that can be taken for non-compliance. What I\u2019m wanting to, I guess, get a sense of here is what the degree of power that this bill provides is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe first part of clause 21(5)(ba) says this Act compels a person to \u201Cattend a meeting (including via an audio or audiovisual link)\u201D. That could be as simple as a telephone call\u2014or a Teams or Zoom or whatever is the video format of the day\u2014with the supervisor to answer any of their questions that they have around the records and documents, or to provide the additional information that the investigator would need in this instance to see whether where there\u2019s smoke, there\u2019s fire, or whether this is a \u201Cnothing to see here\u201D scenario. One of the questions from me around this point is: what happens and what powers does the bill give the supervisor in an instance where a person is requested to meet and declines that request? What would be the next step, and what power does this bill give the supervisor for non-compliance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAnother scenario would be that a meeting is agreed to and attended, but the questions are insufficiently or incompletely answered, and the provision of proper records and documents isn\u2019t met in the opinion of the supervisor. What would the next steps be at that point? In clause 21(5)(ba)(ii), it goes on to say that the request would be to \u201Cprovide any other information that the \u2026 supervisor considers necessary or desirable for the purposes of performing or exercising its functions, powers, or duties\u201D. Again, what would happen if the person being asked to provide that information disagreed and said, \u201CYes, I have that information, but I\u2019m not prepared to share it.\u201D? If they didn\u2019t attend a meeting at all, or if they didn\u2019t respond to requests for a meeting, what power does the supervisor have? Can they summons that person to a meeting? Is it equivalent to a summons power? Do they need to take proceedings elsewhere to compel that person to come to a meeting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe question, really, is around what tools and powers does this give the supervisor to make requests for meetings? What steps can they take if those requests are ignored or if those meetings are not attended? And then, what happens within that environment if the person or organisation persons refuses or is unable to provide the information requested? What would a scenario be in that example, where someone says, \u201CYes, I have that, but I\u2019m not going to provide it.\u201D? Or, if someone is sort of more of a shoebox receipt keeper\u2014and I would hope that not many people are these days, but if this was the example\u2014what would happen if the person had good will and intent but was unable to provide sufficient evidence as requested by the supervisor through a lack of attention to their own accounting records? In each of those scenarios, what powers does this bill give the supervisor to address the questions that I\u2019ve raised around that new section?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u0022444bd8060617b0723228392222c15b0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022444bd8060617b0723228392222c15b0a\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (09:33)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I think, if you look at clause 21, \u201CSection 132 amended\u201D, it\u2019s amending the powers. Of course, there is consequence if you give powers that are not able to be fulfilled, but the scenarios that the member has put to me are operational scenarios that I certainly cannot answer sitting here, because you don\u2019t know what the scenario might be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think what would be, perhaps, important for the member is the improvements, again, that came from the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee in result of this. They were a little bit worried, as well, about people being compelled to have to answer in a situation where a supervisor might just turn up. The select committee requested, and we have added into here, the ability for that individual to have a lawyer present at the meeting and be able to end the meeting at any point. That sort of speaks to what the member was asking about what if a person just says, \u201CNo, I don\u2019t want to give you that information.\u201D Well, we\u2019re allowing them to end a meeting; we\u2019re allowing them to have a lawyer so that they can be represented, but I can\u2019t speak to exactly what the scenario will be, because I don\u2019t know what the situation is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt won\u2019t be a one size fits all, but the powers allowing the supervisor to be able to request the meeting\u2014this needs to happen very fast. We are all aware that dirty money moves very quickly through our systems and can leave the country very quickly, as well. Allowing these powers allows the supervisor to be able to, hopefully, stop money leaving the country, especially if it\u2019s been taken out of people\u2019s bank accounts. How they work within that will depend on the actual scenario that they\u2019re facing and what information has or has not been garnered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u0022df84c113e8e228b78300a78a22b4c047\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df84c113e8e228b78300a78a22b4c047\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa) (09:35)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Useful contributions about the search powers that start here, from clause 21 through, and there are a few questions about this. The Minister is right to point to the work of the select committee on this. Getting this right will be really important to the longevity of the scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOne of the difficulties in this is that the codes do the bulk of the work, so you\u2019ve got search powers that are associated with codes. Any contravention of the code\u2014anything that, later, unelected people can decide is in contravention of the Act\u2014then gives rise to requirements powers. They\u2019re not summons powers, but they\u2019re requiring someone to come to a meeting and then to be searched. That is something that we should legislate for. Every party in the House agrees that we need a very robust regime, but we should do it in full cognisance of what we are creating here, which is a regime where codes give rise to search and to seizure. That is why we are particularly interested in this and why a good going-over with the Minister is called for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOn clause 21(8), the new (3A) inserted after section 132(3), I want to understand what the extent of the access to records and documents mentioned there is. Firstly, any person can be required to hand over documents, but does that mean any person who is reasonably connected to those documents? To whom does this apply in, say, a banking situation where you have some staff who are professionally engaged in compliance with anti - money-laundering? They are one category\u2014obviously they are included. Then you have one category of staff who are engaged in client-facing work where they collect records. They are probably included. Then there are staff who are not engaged in either compliance or client-facing work. They are probably not included. What is the scope of who can be requested to requisition documents? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy next question is around the regulation-making powers. I just want the Minister simply to answer: can the regulations also prescribe a punishment? The regulations can set out very, very broad categories of things\u2014we\u2019ve gone over that with the Minister; it\u2019s her section 64. There is no punishment for not coming to a meeting and there is no punishment for not making available these documents in a timely fashion in the primary legislation, but the codes do allow for the setting of rules in relation to the rest of the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s important, because they\u2019re not specifically set out in the primary legislation as something we anticipate the codes to do, but the general, catch-all nature of the codes means that you can anticipate what might happen if this did become a problem in future. You can imagine, if it became market practice not to come when required to come to a meeting, or if it\u2019s just something that slipped, as in the situation the Minister has outlined where money is moving fast and time is off the essence, the requirement sort of lagging in market for two or three days when we\u2019re actually talking about minutes and hours. Would it be the case that the regulator, the Department of Internal Affairs, could establish in the code either hard punishments, related to not coming along to these meetings or answering the phone, or soft punishments that were more associated with a higher administrative burden for other, positive access to the scheme that is required for licensees?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u002226e18aee121abf5fc64f3199b2396797\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226e18aee121abf5fc64f3199b2396797\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (09:39)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. In answer to the member\u2019s first question, require any person reasonably suspected\u2014that is any person. That is any person at all that the supervisor feels may have some knowledge of transactions or what\u2019s occurring. The reason why it\u2019s any person is that you might have a business, and you might have an outside business\u2014such as a law firm or an accountant or someone else who may hold information\u2014and not even realise that there is crime occurring. We need to be able to access any person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe ability to compel a meeting is common and it has similar regulators\u2014for example, the Financial Markets Authority in section 25 of the Financial Markets Authority Act 2011; also, the Commerce Commission at section 98(1)(c) of the Commerce Act 1986 has it that the supervisor must inform any person questioned under the new power of their right not to answer as well. Of course, we put in those other pieces around it, allowing a lawyer and a person to be able to end a meeting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe member asked whether or not punishment could be put in the regulations. The answer to that is no. Punishment will not be put into guidance either. It\u2019s an expectation; it\u2019s guidance. It\u2019s guidance telling industry how they can operate within the law, how they can cut some red tape, mitigate risk, and what risk it is it they\u2019re able to mitigate. It\u2019s not coming in over the top and saying, \u201CAnd if you don\u2019t do this, you shall be punished.\u201D That will be set out somewhere else and, of course, the punishment can be anywhere. The punishment could also be under the Crimes Act, and New Zealand Police may enforce that. That\u2019s why it\u2019s difficult for me to answer absolute specifics, because we have a wide variety of avenues for the supervisor to go down, including the newly acquired censure that they will be able to issue. Instead of going straight to police, they\u2019ll be able to work their way through and give knowledge to the industry as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e641dc4bf8aa41b0bd8a29676c8ba9a6\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6b415626d4ee7937ec768e28fda6d23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e641dc4bf8aa41b0bd8a29676c8ba9a6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6b415626d4ee7937ec768e28fda6d23\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East) (09:41)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Moving through into clause 23, inserting new section 133A, there\u2019s a heading here: \u201CPower to enter dwellinghouses\u201D. This one really is interesting to me because it says that \u201Csupervisor must not enter a dwellinghouse to conduct an on-site inspection except\u201D\u2014and it goes on to explain the circumstances in which that would be possible: with the consent of the occupier or with the granting of a warrant. That\u2019s not the part that I\u2019m really questioning; the part that I\u2019m questioning is around the use of this term \u201Cdwellinghouse\u201D, and that\u2019s for a number of reasons. I\u2019m not a lawyer, but, to me, \u201Cdwellinghouse\u201D would suggest you\u2019re talking about a place of residence. If we look at conventional and established business practice, then we could rightly argue that people work in offices and live in houses. I\u2019ve lived in all sorts of different houses; I\u2019ve never called any of them a \u201Cdwellinghouse\u201D. I\u2019ve also at times worked from home. So I\u2019ve often been based at home doing any number of different roles or jobs, at which point you could have argued that there was as much resource material and information in my possession in my \u201Cdwellinghouse\u201D, if that\u2019s what we decided to call it, as there would have been in my office. At times, there\u2019s, in fact, been more information available about what I\u2019m doing and what I\u2019m working on in my home than there has been in what would conventionally have been called my office or my workspace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, the other thing that this doesn\u2019t account for is that in a world\u2014and in a country\u2014where we have a huge number and massively high proportion of small and medium enterprises, businesses, and start-ups, there will be a number of people who live and work in the same space, either because they\u2019re working from home or because, in some cases, they may buy or rent a facility that provides a space to work downstairs and a space to live upstairs, or vice versa\u2014it doesn\u2019t matter which floor they live and work on, but that can be a cohabitated space. So is that a dwellinghouse or is that an office or is that a factory or is that a plant? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe other thing is that in a world where we increasingly can carry around in our pocket access to and as much information as you could potentially need to mount an investigation, you could also argue that, at times, someone\u2019s car or someone\u2019s backpack has as much information and as much access to the kind of information you would want to be investigating or prosecuting as a potential breach of this Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Minister has spoken about the speed at which this happens, and I don\u2019t think any of us are in any doubt about the need for speed\u2014to use that terrible slogan\u2014but in instances like this, the need to be able to move quickly. Now, dwellinghouse to me doesn\u2019t say futureproofed legislation; it feels to me like a very clunky old-fashioned term, which risks excluding a number of locations, sites, and opportunities to be able to access and find the information that could be key to being that the handbrake\u2014to use another word often used in this House\u2014on that speedy process of transacting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe concern for me would be that the term \u201Cdwellinghouse\u201D doesn\u2019t sufficiently capture the number of places and spaces that information may be readily available and could be the missing piece in the puzzle. So, really, the question is: why the choice of the term \u201Cdwellinghouse\u201D; whether the Minister gave any consideration or whether there were any other recommendations for better terminology or language; and whether you could argue that a car could be a dwellinghouse if you are potentially living in your car or working out of your car. As one of my colleagues has pointed out, there are a number of working people living in cars in New Zealand at this point in history, so would that be counted as a dwellinghouse? Would their car and the contents of their car be excluded under this legislation? By what I\u2019m reading, you could argue that it is. So, really, the definition and whether there\u2019s any consideration to how many environments this definition excludes from the reach of the supervisor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u002232d9917eb0e9912bc6731ce9f39bf3e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232d9917eb0e9912bc6731ce9f39bf3e4\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (09:46)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Dwellinghouses are known throughout several pieces of legislation, so we use \u201Cdwellinghouse\u201D because it\u2019s already used and it\u2019s therefore consistency. But it would only be used after other approaches have been tried\u2014for example, if a request to produce documents is then denied, there would be the ability to go into the dwellinghouse. It would not be reasonable if the same information was available at a non-residential location. There has to be reasonableness about entering into a dwellinghouse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EAll other locations except marae are already included. The dwellinghouse previously had been excluded and it shouldn\u2019t have been. So this makes it clear that the only exception now is actually a marae. That\u2019s the only exceptional place. I do note, once again, that the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee actually looked into this, queried about whether or not they needed to make it more robust, and decided that they were happy with where it landed and there was no need to change it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022 data-id=\u0022229a5942f4ffeef0fa5f4445a501147d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022229a5942f4ffeef0fa5f4445a501147d\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green) (09:47)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to move on to the next section, which is clause 26. I think this particular part is quite a meaty chunk of the legislation and this is to do with the national strategy and work programme. I want to check with the Minister first that with the new system, the Minister in the chair is the Minister in charge of anti \u2013 money-laundering and countering the financing of terrorism (AML/CFT), but the ministry in charge is the Department of Internal Affairs (DIA).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat I couldn\u2019t see in the definition of Minister and ministry of AML/CFT is what happens when the Minister, for example, is not the Minister of the DIA. How would that work in terms of\u2014are you the Minister that\u2019s referred to in clause 26, new section 149A, \u201C(1) The Minister must adopt a national strategy AML/CFT\u201D, and how would you then interact with DIA if the Minister relevant to the AML/CFT is not the Minister of the DIA? So that\u2019s my first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe second question is in\u2014I\u2019ll stick to this one because I have questions later on around the levies, which is also a big part of this bill, but for the time being, my second question is in new section 149C, inserted by clause 26. It talks about \u201CDuty to review national strategy after Financial Action Task Force evaluation\u201D. We\u2019ve spoken about this briefly and then, in the regulatory impact statement, there is the idea that the next mutual evaluation is in 2028. Would I then assume that the review is after that particular period\u2014so after 2028?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b212f0e83013810cf0eed514f1f95a7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b212f0e83013810cf0eed514f1f95a7e\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (09:49)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Thanks to the member for his first question for the morning. Yes, the Minister in charge will be the Minister in charge of AML/CFT and that currently sits under the Ministry of Justice. Those that are doing the operational work will sit under DIA. They are the group. It\u2019s just the same as when there were three supervisors\u2014the Financial Markets Authority, Reserve Bank, and the Department of Internal Affairs\u2014it still sat under a Minister who was involved in justice, because we are talking about dirty money here; we are just utilising a different agency to enforce the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EWith the mutual evaluation, yes, and the reason why we\u2019re going to review it is because, once we\u2019ve had that mutual evaluation, there may be considerations that we have to make changes, so we want to have a look at what the evaluation will tell us\u2014that we\u2019re on the right pathway or that we could improve it by doing something else. That\u2019s why we will have an evaluation of the strategy and how it\u2019s working, based upon the mutual evaluation that the Financial Action Task Force gives us. That begins\u20142027-28 is when we will have that evaluation. Once we\u2019ve received it, that\u2019s when we will start to look at the strategy and say, \u201CHave we nailed it?\u201D, \u201CHave we met our international obligations?\u201D, \u201CIs there anything we need to change?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022 data-id=\u0022412fe0c46048b92a07c03821ad9463b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022412fe0c46048b92a07c03821ad9463b5\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green) (09:50)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Minister, for that response. Can I just check, because one of the things the Minister mentioned yesterday is the fourth piece of legislation that\u2019s coming\u2014before the mutual evaluation 2028, but it\u2019s coming, possibly, next year. Will there be sufficient time for the strategy to be implemented and embedded and then the mutual evaluation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u0022090f5ba7886bd49d0032ee522b5890ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022090f5ba7886bd49d0032ee522b5890ad\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (09:51)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m advised that, yes, there will be, as long as we don\u2019t muck around and actually get these passed\u2014any time really soon would help the country with their mutual evaluation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb40eb85aab340879622563050ab25fa\u0022 data-id=\u00229420de4b815de5da2fdc796af6b0f8b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb40eb85aab340879622563050ab25fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229420de4b815de5da2fdc796af6b0f8b3\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty) (09:51)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat debate on this question now close\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258fe854c4a96ca1c3dda81e1f85f23a6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I think there are still some areas of this bill that can be explored.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002282ab0ea3cc1948dabe8e5cc6838658d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251fd5a50b6fecb54b5d11782cedfd5e5\u0022\u003EDan Rosewarne\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022049a664aa69897dddd7c661c5b30be3f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry\u2014brain fade.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ac3fc321d0a037d77b4b03c657713c0\u0022\u003EHon Members: \u003C/span\u003EDan Rosewarne.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bcc9d1a611503e2692df2322d487560\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Dan Rosewarne\u2014sorry. My apologies to the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002282ab0ea3cc1948dabe8e5cc6838658d0\u0022 data-id=\u0022f11808c4885ee58419d06f303aede95f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002282ab0ea3cc1948dabe8e5cc6838658d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f11808c4885ee58419d06f303aede95f\u0022\u003EDAN ROSEWARNE (Labour) (09:51)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s my first question in the Chamber since being sworn in again, and it\u2019s definitely interesting not being worried about closure motions but actually going through this bill. I want to thank the Minister for her detailed questions and rounding out the understanding of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, clause 26 prompted my interest, especially with the Green contribution over there, so I have a similar line of questioning. Introducing sections 149A to 149D, essentially, creates a new strategic backbone for the anti - money-laundering and countering the financing of terrorism (AML/CFT) regime. It\u2019s a national strategy adopted by the Minister, followed by a regulatory work programme issued by the ministry. This is significant overdue reform. For too long, AML/CFT settings have evolved in a piecemeal fashion, often driven by external evaluations or operational pressures rather than a coherent domestic strategy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA published national strategy provides clarity of direction and prioritisation of risks, which is good for holding agencies to account. The requirement to consult affected persons before adopting the strategy and issuing the work programme is particularly important, in my view. It acknowledges that the AML/CFT obligations have real economic and social impacts and that effective compliance depends on early engagement. However, the success of this framework will depend on substance, not form, and a strategy that is aspirational but vague will not provide any meaningful guidance. Likewise, a work programme that lists activities without timelines, ownership, or cost implications will not deliver that transparency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s also an important constitutional dimension. While the national strategy may direct agencies, it must not undermine the statutory independence, particularly of the Commissioner of Police, as explicitly recognised in section 149A(4). In my mind, the committee should therefore view these provisions as accountability mechanisms. If done well, that will anchor the supervisors\u2019 expanded powers in a publicly visible plan that Parliament, reporting entities, and the public can actually scrutinise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy questions are around what level of detail the Government expects the national strategy to contain, regarding priorities and sequencing, and how progress against the regulatory work programme will be reported to Parliament beyond the summary publication requirement. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u00224a037ce6514f47a0c01f3d84142d59bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a037ce6514f47a0c01f3d84142d59bf\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (09:54)\u003C/span\u003E: Welcome back to the member, and thank you for your first question back in the Chamber. The national strategy is done in such a way that, because we are levying industry, we want them to be a part of the solution. We\u2019re basically saying, \u201CWe\u2019re going to levy you, but what do you need to make it work well for you?\u201D These new sections\u2014149A, D, E, F\u2014are all setting out the fact that we need to have a national strategy that is agreed to by industry in order to move forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESection 49D requires the Ministry of Justice to issue a regulatory work programme in order to implement the strategy. New section 49E requires the Ministry of Justice to report annually on their work programme and the levy and to set key elements of each annual report. I will again go back to the select committee and thank them for the work they did here. They actually wanted to have a clause within the bill that details where the money is being spent and how it\u2019s being spent, so that there is accountability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew section 49F requires the ministry to review the levy funding three years after the levy regulations are made or significantly amended so we can see whether or not we\u2019ve landed in the right spot, that the contributions from different industries are the right amounts, and, more importantly, that we\u2019re able to, together, combat organised crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e641dc4bf8aa41b0bd8a29676c8ba9a6\u0022 data-id=\u0022824729b3e1423bc17332c64e45733a2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e641dc4bf8aa41b0bd8a29676c8ba9a6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022824729b3e1423bc17332c64e45733a2e\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East) (09:56)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Continuing to move through the bill, and thanking the Minister for that last answer, which was great\u2014it got us to where we are now, which is clause 26, inserting new section 149B. This is around the publication of a national strategy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, really, I\u2019m looking at this in the context of the Minister\u2019s earlier answer around the need to cut red tape, and that\u2019s a term we hear a lot from certain parts of the House. The concern I have with that statement, in the context of section 149B, is that it talks about adopting a national strategy under section 149A, and then it talks about amendments or replacements to the strategy and what the Minister is compelled to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EParagraph (a) talks about presenting a copy of the strategy of the House\u2014that\u2019s pretty straightforward; notifying the adoption, amendments, or replacement in the \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EGazette\u003C/span\u003E\u2014once again, that makes the information available; and publishing the strategy on the internet site maintained by or on behalf of the ministry. All of these talk to making that information available for people to find. That\u2019s good. People do need to be able to find what the national strategy is. But what it doesn\u2019t speak to and what it seemingly omits\u2014and so my question to the Minister is whether this is the case\u2014is that there doesn\u2019t appear to be a consultative process there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIf your objective is to cut red tape, surely those who would understand the frustrations, or the supposed frustrations, with the red tape best are those affected parties who the red tape gets in the way of. Without spelling out in law that those communities need to be consulted with, the risk is that, with the best of intentions, the red tape may remain; may, in fact, get worse; might get better. There\u2019s really no formal consultative process with community or stakeholders that I can see spelt out in this bill that ensures that, whilst the strategy is able to be published, is able to be shared, is able to be widely discoverable, it necessarily reflects\u2014or, certainly, no one is compelled to ensure that it reflects\u2014the needs, the wants, the requests of the sectors that the strategy is actually for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe question to the Minister is: if that is not part of the process in section 149B, is it hidden somewhere else in the bill that I\u2019ve missed? There\u2019s a very good chance that it is. If it\u2019s not hidden somewhere else in the bill, is she concerned that there isn\u2019t a facility within this bill for industry and operators to inform a strategy that is the national strategy for them? If that\u2019s the case, is there a risk that, actually, the best of intentions to facilitate and make easier the administrative and compliance process for organisations and entities could, in fact, be more difficult by way of a national strategy that doesn\u2019t reflect the hopes, desires, dreams, requests, demands of the sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat facility is there for community and stakeholder engagement in the shaping of the strategy; and, I guess, also, out of interest, what requests, and via what mechanisms, have asks for change come to the Minister so far? I imagine it would be interesting to know if it\u2019s feedback from industry that is compelled this change, then, what is the ongoing mechanism to capture the feedback from industry about: (1) whether the change is working, and (2) whether the change needs to change more in the future to be more reflective of creating a safe but de - red-taped environment for those organisations and entities to operate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e459e5c0f12b30684769bdfb3a867c38\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e459e5c0f12b30684769bdfb3a867c38\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (10:00)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I can assure the member that the consultation groups involved in the national strategy have been very wide, very broad. This has been ongoing for a while. We don\u2019t usually put in legislation who exactly it is that you\u2019re going to be consulting with. I\u2019ve never seen that in legislation\u2014where it\u2019s actually detailed. And if it was, I would not want it detailed on there because we have, like I have mentioned many times, emerging technologies, emerging groups. So you want to be able to capture everybody who could be involved and need to have a say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI\u2019m really proud of the way that the Ministry of Justice have conducted their engagement on the national strategy plan. They have finished their consultation with industry; they, now, are preparing what they think a national strategy will look like. Of course, this has been worked with industry in order to remove that red tape and, by goodness, we\u2019re certainly going to do it. And it\u2019s going to relieve a whole lot of red tape for so many New Zealanders out there who don\u2019t even realise that they\u2019ve been caught up in the anti - money-laundering system. And, at the same time, strengthening those agencies to be able to conduct business and open it up a bit better for them. So they are involved\u2014well and truly involved. I would like to just give my appreciation to those industries, the banks, the real estate agents, the lawyers, the accountants\u2014all those that have been involved in what will, ultimately, be New Zealand\u2019s best anti - money-laundering strategy that we\u2019ve had since we\u2019ve been in this regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022443f23de4cbd464f91833e6c466c98c0\u0022 data-id=\u0022368b42019771aa29352480171c572a9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022443f23de4cbd464f91833e6c466c98c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022368b42019771aa29352480171c572a9a\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (Whip\u2014ACT) (10:02)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat debate on this question now close\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1e4c00e6c7478fe522e1535c16646e8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I think we are getting towards the end of this debate, but I will take some further questions, as we move forward, from Lawrence Xu-Nan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022 data-id=\u00223a8dfd1928f4e292539ac836fbb88ac5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a8dfd1928f4e292539ac836fbb88ac5\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green) (10:02)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I did indicate to you, Madam Chair, before, that I want to move on to the levy sections. I\u2019m looking at clause 30, \u201CNew sections 155A to 155D inserted\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, I just want to check with you, Minister\u2014this is the first time I\u2019m actually seeing a new acronym: CRIS; I have not seen a \u201Ccost recovery impact statement\u201D before. I want to check a couple of things with you. Noting in 155A(3)(a), (b), and (c), it talks about \u201Ca portion of the costs incurred by the Ministry\u201D and \u201Ca portion of any additional costs\u201D and \u201Cthe full costs of collecting the levy money.\u201D, which I understand. Can I just check if that is consistent with what we\u2019re seeing on page 5 of the CRIS, which is the recommendations for a partial cost recovery for the regulatory system rather than full cost recovery, citing that a lot of this is part of public good, which should be factored into a budget line for an agency. I want to check with the Minister if there\u2019s any work that\u2019s being done on\u2014I know that will fluctuate\u2014but has there been any work done on what would be considered recoverable where that portion would be considered recoverable from a private sector levy and will be considered as a baseline for the agencies itself?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, Minister, you mentioned before that there\u2019s also going to be a different, sort of, tiered system. I think, yesterday, you mentioned that banks that have the highest risks, will, potentially, incur the greatest levy. Can I just check if that is to be interpreted under new section 155A(6)(a), which, for example, is \u201Cthe regulations may specify class or classes of reporting entities that are required to pay a levy.\u201D I wanted to check if that is also consistent with what we\u2019re seeing on page 10 of the CRIS, on high-level cost recovery models, which talks about individual levy amounts will be set by revenue risk band. Is that something that is, although not stated explicitly\u2014those words\u2014in the legislation, is it still the intention of the regulation that, potentially, is proposed on those individual levy amounts based on revenue risk band rather than fixed percentage?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELast one. This is just purely, purely, out of interest. It\u2019s new section 155D, which says the Minister must consult the persons in 155D(1), but in 155D(2) it says, \u201CA failure to comply with this section does not affect the validity of the regulations.\u201D I\u2019ve seen that particular phrase come up a couple of times in other legislation around the making of regulations, but I want to check, Minister, from a drafting perspective: what would be the difference of having (1) say \u201CMinister must consult\u201D and if it failed to consult it doesn\u2019t invalidate the regulations; then, if (1) just says the \u201CMinister may consult\u201D, and leave it up to the Minister\u2019s discretion on whether consultation will happen or not? I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s simply semantics or drafting preference, but I thought that was an interesting observation. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u00229324042b1870770ca553511b5b81adf7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229324042b1870770ca553511b5b81adf7\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (10:06)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. In speaking to clause 30, new sections 155A to D\u2014the setting of the levy and what\u2019s recoverable. Yes, in answer to the member\u2019s question 155A(6)(a), \u201Cthe regulations may specify the class or classes of reporting entities that are required to pay a levy:\u201D, that is where you\u2019re quite right. It\u2019s to set out exactly what industry will be paying; what percentage of the levy. What is well-known, I think across the Chamber, was, in the past, the three supervisors were unable, they didn\u2019t have the resource to be able to really capture or interrogate where dirty money was flowing\u2014the anti - money-laundering system. What\u2019s become very clear, in consultation, is that industry have told us, effectively, that they are very keen to pay a levy if it reduces red tape on people; it stops them having to do the same things. But they also said to us: \u201CCould you, please, ensure that you fund the Financial Investigation Unit, because having them and the ability for them to prosecute, will also make life easier for industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EHow this is going to look? I\u2019m still waiting on that advice\u2014who\u2019s paying what? What amount? How is it going to work? What amounts are going to what cost recovery? What\u2019s very important, though, is that the cost recovery is reasonable, that it\u2019s not excessive, and it is on the part of the public good. I think what\u2019s very important for the member to understand is that the agencies or the levy is not paying for the entire system. Government\u2019s contribution is still there. Government will still be paying for the amounts that are for the public good as well. So it\u2019s not that we\u2019re taking everything from industry and expecting them to pay\u2014Government will continue to pay their fair share. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u0022037ef465f929b8fa5cb30acc7862ca92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022037ef465f929b8fa5cb30acc7862ca92\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa) (10:08)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Great to be discussing the levy, which I said was the guts of this bill. Congratulations to the Minister for bringing in these new powers for levying the industry to pay for a service which is really valuable to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to ask her about new section 156E. I appreciate that she is in the process of consulting on who pays and who doesn\u2019t, but this is a very broad power about when she has decided who pays and who doesn\u2019t, then the chief executive being able to exempt people who would otherwise be caught by her net. I want to bring the Minister to that section, particularly because it is useful for the committee to understand how broad that power is. In this Act, there are no provisions in the primary legislation that govern the chief executive, in terms of either a purpose or value statement, about why the chief executive would make an exemption or a class of transactions as an exemption. So this is not only who pays but what kind of transactions are within the anti - money-laundering net is also being provided for as an exemption power here. That\u2019s a really broad power because you would usually either have a class of persons who were operators within a system or you would have a class of types of activities, and those are usually, you know, the types of activities that you would prohibit in criminal sanctions, is the way that we draw the net there. But, in this case, you\u2019ve got both kinds of powers for the chief executive to cut out of the system at a later date. That seems really broad. Is the intended design here that the chief executive\u2014is this merely futureproofing? If it was just futureproofing, then that\u2019s really useful for us to understand, because if the operating environment doesn\u2019t change too much in five years, then you might say, well, we wouldn\u2019t expect lots of uses of these exemption powers, particularly the class exemption powers. But if they\u2019re not about futureproofing\u2014if they are, say, because you would anticipate larger entities behaving in different ways to smaller entities or more kinds of political pressure being exerted on a given industry, say, like real estate and more political attention being provided for real estate\u2014is that the intention of the class exemptions? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat would be different because, you know, it\u2019s up to any given Government of any given day to look at a particular industry and say, \u201CWe think there is a real risk here and a systemic risk to our national reputation, and so we want to focus on this.\u201D\u2014but you wouldn\u2019t usually do that via a class exemption. We\u2019ve had some useful debate in this House about how you would set that national strategy to do some of that, sort of, values-based decision making, not via this mechanism, which is the exemptions powers. So if the Minister could give some attention to that, that would be very helpful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI also want to ask her about new section 156G, inserted by clause 32. This also relates to the exemption powers, but it\u2019s making notices around, then, parts of transactions. I want to ask again about what the status of those notices is. Are they secondary legislation? Are they part of the code? What are they and what is their enforceability? I have some more questions about the rule-making powers further for the levy, but will stop there for now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u0022368e1063192e78f1c1394310d44b1d5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022368e1063192e78f1c1394310d44b1d5c\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (10:12)\u003C/span\u003E: The ability to issue an exemption has always been there within the law. The reality is that without guidance on how these entities are to operate, a lot of exemptions haven\u2019t actually been issued. However, since I\u2019ve been in the chair as the Minister in charge of anti \u2013 money-laundering and countering financing of terrorism (AML/CFT), we have now started to issue some exemptions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ETo give the member an example, just off the top of my head\u2014a class exemption that was given recently was to the insurance industry, for example. It\u2019s unlikely that you\u2019re going to see dirty money laundered in trying to pay for the car insurance or the house insurance, so they had asked for an exemption for certain parts or certain activities that they have. This is just allowing the status quo, which is to allow an exemption, either as a class or, perhaps, for a single business, but that requirement must be met by ensuring that there are certain qualifications that are met within the application that would allow an exemption to take place. If they don\u2019t meet those requirements, they will not be eligible for an exemption.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022 data-id=\u00227c0772993cc769ed920b8e43a663de65\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c0772993cc769ed920b8e43a663de65\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui) (10:13)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat debate on this question now close\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2974e2f6873aca891aa3327b9a81f33\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The member has suggested she\u2019s got some more questions. I would suggest she put them all into this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u0022f62ef7cfaff63f86de7838f4ebeb5ad5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f62ef7cfaff63f86de7838f4ebeb5ad5\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa) (10:13)\u003C/span\u003E: One contribution? All right, Mr Chair. I\u2019ll prioritise the question I had about the matters which relate to rules. Are the matters that relate to the rules, Minister, that you\u2019ve set out at your new section 156H, inserted by clause 32, then intended to apply to the exemption notices? You have helpfully given us that it\u2019s not just about futureproofing; it is about our values judgments and based on risk. Say, at any given time, the insurance industry is not in the gun. We accept that; that makes sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESo are, then, the powers that set out the values judgments that you\u2019d make\u2014and I\u2019ll bring your attention to new section 156H(e) at the top of page 23, which is unfair advantages for reporting entities and disadvantages to others; those are the sorts of value judgments that are made, which are in the primary legislation, for the setting of your codes and your national strategy. Do they relate to the exemption notices? Because the exemption notices look to me like they don\u2019t have any sort of values-based propositions for how you would grant an exemption, and yet you have access here to a set of values judgments for the codes, which are helpful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI also want to ask you about the transitional provisions. The movement from the three regulators to one regulator would always have encountered some administrative difficulty\u2014not only in terms of staff but also of data. Can we just focus on the use of the data and processes for gathering information? Is it the case, in these transitional provisions, that all of the data held by the Financial Markets Authority and the Reserve Bank of New Zealand move over to the Department of Internal Affairs (DIA) and don\u2019t trigger any oversight from\u2014that would otherwise trigger provisions from in the Privacy Act or the Policing Act? Does information that the Police hold in the Financial Intelligence Unit also get shared in this way at transition, and is it necessary for the data held by DIA in its former capacity as regulator for a part of the anti \u2013 money-laundering system to also transition its data? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe reason I ask is because all of that probably gives rise to obligations under other Acts. Does this transitional provision for data exempt any other provisions arising, or is it the case that there is still potential liability arising at that point of transition? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u00222d12f407f37e06801b8f820560cc3bc4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d12f407f37e06801b8f820560cc3bc4\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (10:16)\u003C/span\u003E: The member points out, I think, paragraph (e) and paragraph (h) in new section 156H, inserted by clause 32, which is processes for making rules and notices. While there\u2019s some about exemptions, it\u2019s actually all about making rules and notices within that particular section.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to data sharing, I mean, there is already data sharing that occurs. As I\u2019ve mentioned earlier, members from the Financial Markets Authority and the Reserve Bank are on the Department of Internal Affairs team, so not only will there be information but there\u2019s a lot of knowledge up in these heads that will still be contributing to a really robust anti \u2013 money-laundering and countering financing of terrorism system that\u2019s going to cut red tape and make it easier for Kiwis to operate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df3e6766443b46819410ad4fedf34077\u0022 data-id=\u002274cd57e3bcfa171474eebb838153f559\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df3e6766443b46819410ad4fedf34077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274cd57e3bcfa171474eebb838153f559\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (Senior Whip\u2014National) (10:16)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat debate on this question now close\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat debate on this question now close\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5; Ferris.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022145dc3c4c0fda579543612bb58586e6f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Amendment Paper 573 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the amendments be agreed to\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5; Ferris.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002283ad09f3d2b8da45507366affa3ba798\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b678a07a744868d6c99df86baecc60df\u0022\u003EPart 2 Consequential amendments to other enactments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b20681bd0cf2f89f4dd8df14df4620a9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 2, the debate on \u201CConsequential amendments to other enactments\u201D, clause 36. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u002247d4566dc96d9c26ec5aa38cfc74c39d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247d4566dc96d9c26ec5aa38cfc74c39d\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa) (10:19)\u003C/span\u003E: Apologies, Mr Chair. Just a quick question on the Associate Minister of Justice\u2019s new clause 10: are there any technical redundancies that would have arisen, but for this provision? The Minister has been very helpful at outlining the value of the information in people\u2019s heads, but also the skills and expertise involved in this work. This is a niche field of practice globally, and it is hard to recruit to New Zealand for these globally important skills. Are there people who will have lost their roles given the move to the Department of Internal Affairs and a single regulator, or is it the case that all of the expertise has been soaked up into DIA and that new team will operate, just within a different part of the Public Service?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e86fa13ac9a41d02129cfc1cc04f7ab6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e86fa13ac9a41d02129cfc1cc04f7ab6\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (10:20)\u003C/span\u003E: Schedule 1, inserting new Part 3 into Schedule 1 of the Act, clause 9 transfers both employees and information as is specified. This particular Schedule 1, new Part 3, also extends provisions under the Public Service Act 2020 to affected employees at the Reserve Bank and the Financial Markets. The provisions are no less and no more generous than provisions that would apply to transfers between two public sector agencies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd99ae05e14b70be3f5a02273a6b4115\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd99ae05e14b70be3f5a02273a6b4115\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa) (10:20)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, I appreciate the Minister\u2019s answer. At clauses 12 and 13, is the effect of those provisions to save all of the exemptions and class exemptions that exist? Is notices under the Financial Market Authority\u2019s practice guidance-making powers\u2014do they all carry over, given that they now no longer have a role in the administration of the anti \u2013 money-laundering countering financing of terrorism system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0005a0e2d79c915946cc8ce71937d72\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0005a0e2d79c915946cc8ce71937d72\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (10:21)\u003C/span\u003E: I hope this one answers that question. Revoked powers cannot be used to update and reissue regulations, only end them. These provisions will allow time for the development of new rules and notices to replace the regulations, while removing the ability to make new regulations with revoked powers. I\u2019m hoping that I\u2019ve answered the member\u2019s question in that respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022 data-id=\u002266f3ac8f2ee95454db50629f3f429a5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266f3ac8f2ee95454db50629f3f429a5e\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour) (10:21)\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to carry on with the concerns about employees. My colleague Arena Williams asked a question about clause 10, the technical redundancy, and the Minister answered with clause 9 but I nevertheless think that particular question is answered. I just wanted to direct the Minister\u2019s attention to clause 11 of Schedule 1, where the employment of the transferred employee is to be treated as continuous employment under any Act. I\u2019m just wondering about how that\u2019s going to work with what we know have been significant concerns around holiday pay and the calculation of holiday pay. I just want to know if the Minister received any advice about whether the particular entities that have all been merged have got backlogs of issues with holiday pay\u2014which we know exist in many entities\u2014and to what extent that was taken into consideration as to how those backlogs of calculations around holiday pay were to be treated, given that they\u2019re all in one entity now, which might have different sets of rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a whole lot of sets of complications there. Did the Minister receive any advice on that? Are there any particular special arrangements having to be made to ensure that employees are not worse off because of back pay, holiday pay calculations that might have differed between the various agencies? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u00229b701f60e8eeb2518ec9cfc1e17df192\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b701f60e8eeb2518ec9cfc1e17df192\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (10:23)\u003C/span\u003E: I think I answered that specifically just in the last answer that I gave, which is the extension of provisions under the Public Service Act, and provisions are no less or no more generous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u00223e4ab524a63e61583f2b0d676cbfd323\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e4ab524a63e61583f2b0d676cbfd323\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa) (10:23)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that my colleague will come back to that question. I\u2019ll just ask the Minister quickly, while I\u2019m on my feet: her new section 13; I think I\u2019ve understood her correctly in that all of the class exemptions remain in place under that provision. What is the situation when the national action plan comes into effect? Does the national action plan supersede exemptions or notices made by the Financial Markets Authority, given that they will no longer have a supervisory role under the anti \u2013 money-laundering and countering financing of terrorism net.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u00220e99766e6f87ab8885334593f4759111\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e99766e6f87ab8885334593f4759111\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (10:24)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a transitional section or schedule, so it\u2019s effectively\u2014what we have in place now for rules stay in place until they are amended. The national strategy plan is what we will move to as we go forward, and anything that comes out of that\u2014the guidance\u2014will supersede anything that was there before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0d4e6731a2c9f0c7247122cf0a77b02\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0d4e6731a2c9f0c7247122cf0a77b02\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour) (10:24)\u003C/span\u003E: With respect, Minister, you haven\u2019t answered my question. I agree around the no more, no less. But I asked if you\u2019d received any advice on that, particularly with respect to holiday pay because it is a vexed issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f30a0cae2152de7d9cb437d311fed357\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f30a0cae2152de7d9cb437d311fed357\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice) (10:25)\u003C/span\u003E: When you\u2019re looking at these different organisations, I\u2019m not responsible for them. In regard to how they do their pay, that would go to their Minister because it would probably, I expect, come out of their budget lines. I am looking, in this piece of legislation, to how we can remove the red tape for New Zealanders and make it work for them; how we can get agencies such as our banks, our real estate agents, and our lawyers to be able to operate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe conditions around who\u2019s being paid what if there\u2019s a redundancy, if there\u2019s not a redundancy: my understanding is that the majority of these people have moved into this particular area. I also understand\u2014and I hope this helps to answer the member\u2019s question\u2014that those who have been taken off anti \u2013 money-laundering are now into other areas within their departments, so there\u2019s no need for a redundancy. They\u2019ve just been moved elsewhere. My understanding is that the transitional provisions are really just moving from the three into the single, but details around redundancy I\u2019m not aware of because, as far as I know, no one has been made redundant as a result of this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4574418416045873cc171ed25a6fc5a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4574418416045873cc171ed25a6fc5a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour) (10:26)\u003C/span\u003E: My question was about holiday pay entitlements and the vexed issues around holiday pay. The Minister has answered around redundancy. So I still want to know if the Minister received any advice relating to whether or not, in particular around holiday pay for the employees who were transferred.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022443f23de4cbd464f91833e6c466c98c0\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1a89c37e4fe696708b0b6f050efe75c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022443f23de4cbd464f91833e6c466c98c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1a89c37e4fe696708b0b6f050efe75c\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (Whip\u2014ACT) (10:26)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat debate on this question now close\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat debate on this question now close\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5; Ferris.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002274b9b366143573d7609660d72fcadf3e\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e8886a849623464041c15dfcd4ad317c\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213d8d16b8ea4696e62d8491fd0327438\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to our final debate, clauses 1, 2, and 3, the debate on \u201CTitle\u201D, \u201CCommencement\u201D, and \u201CPrincipal Act\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022443f23de4cbd464f91833e6c466c98c0\u0022 data-id=\u0022aaafec7847fa2da4bdbcbbb6c7c5d4c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022443f23de4cbd464f91833e6c466c98c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aaafec7847fa2da4bdbcbbb6c7c5d4c0\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (Whip\u2014ACT) (10:28)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat debate on this question now close\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022300c20af9a2e479457d0149b572cfa2c\u0022\u003ERegulatory Systems (Transport) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cd1f479a243d208c3d0406ff7049716e\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u00228394f47ea6cbab60d0806b041f56770f\u0022\u003EPart 1 Amendments to Government Roading Powers Act 1989\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e0e0ceda6ab0a4dca7e77818349f48b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to the Regulatory Systems (Transport) Amendment Bill. We start with Part 1, which is the debate on clauses 3 to 5, \u201CAmendments to Government Roading Powers Act 1989.\u201D The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u0022e44607bb2edb38f0750b5c6ceca26aff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e44607bb2edb38f0750b5c6ceca26aff\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (10:29)\u003C/span\u003E: \u003Cspan lang=\u0022rar\u0022\u003EKia orana.\u003C/span\u003E Good morning, Mr Chair. It\u2019s a pleasure to ask the Minister in the chair some questions on this bill. It has seven parts, and the way in which the Labour Party will be approaching this is for each of the parts, which is actually quite discrete, because as a regulatory systems bill\u2014an omnibus bill\u2014this does come to the Parliament from time to time, and so it\u2019s quite discretely managed in that particular sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis particular part is seeking to amend the Government Roading Powers Act 1989, and there are just a couple of changes. One of them is a new power that provides for the agency\u2014in this respect, that is the New Zealand Transport Agency Waka Kotahi\u2014to undertake the closure of some of the State highway networks. Now, while I say \u201CState highway networks\u201D, it\u2019s very clear in this bill that it relates to a State highway. I guess there is a possibility there that if it was perhaps at a junction where two State highways meet\u2014which is not uncommon in this country\u2014there would still be the provision to close, but that would relate to the singular highway, so there would need to be two forms of approaches there. That\u2019s the first question for the Minister\u2014just some clarity around that. At an intersection where safety is deemed as an issue, the intersection relates to when it\u2019s just one State highway and then, perhaps, a local road that comes in on that, the authority to close the State highway would obviously exist\u2014the local controlling authority would have responsibility over the local roading network and could take what steps it wishes to around that. But just some clarity in that space, I think, would be really, really helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s also worth hearing from the Minister around what specific circumstances he believes would justify the use of this power. What I think no one would argue with is that when there are real and pressing safety needs, the powers exist for the agencies, whoever they might be, to take steps to ensure that things are safe for everyone\u2014for other road users, for those who are, perhaps, responding to an incident.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhere new section 61AA(3), inserted by clause 4, comes in, which is around the requirement for the agency to basically form a notification process, it says that that notification must go through to \u201Cthe New Zealand Police, Fire and Emergency New Zealand, and relevant ambulance services as soon as practicable of any action taken \u2026\u201D\u2014the action to close. Do we infer from that, Minister, that when it comes to safety, it relates to an issue that involves the police, Fire and Emergency New Zealand, or ambulance services? Is it perhaps not the case that, for example, if there was some environmental impact that caused the requirement for a road to be closed, there should be a requirement to notify beyond those three statutory components there, or not? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI guess the other question is whether it\u2019s expected that the notification\u2014I get that it says that it needs to happen as soon as practicable, of any action taken, but what drives that practicality?  Obviously, people do\u2014and agencies do\u2014need to be given the tools to be able to make these decisions and these calls pretty promptly and pretty quickly. Certainly, you wouldn\u2019t want to see circumstances where they\u2019re trying to work through a phone tree before certain things need to happen. But does the Minister have some thoughts around what his expectations are as to when that notification period should kick in?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u0022900db19ac47b83a2bf0eed8f06b17157\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022900db19ac47b83a2bf0eed8f06b17157\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (10:34)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I just think in terms of \u201Cas soon as practicable\u201D\u2014that will be context specific, depending on the emergency that is occurring or the safety steps that need to be taken. You\u2019d have to judge it on a case by case basis\u2014and there\u2019s a long, I guess, statutory history of what \u201Cpracticable\u201D may or may not mean\u2014but I would imagine it would be as soon as the New Zealand Transport Agency are able to contact the relevant emergency service. It might be all three emergency services. You might be contacting, in the normal course of events, others beyond that, but I think the situation is that you can\u2019t give an answer now. It would be context specific and I would trust the agency to use its judgment on the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad8f4fbfc4e71074ffe6fdea6d4b1ea2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad8f4fbfc4e71074ffe6fdea6d4b1ea2\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (10:35)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I thank the Minister for his response around that. When we\u2019re looking at that new subsection (1) around the actions that the agency may take, there are three particular actions that the agency may undertake. Firstly, they may \u201Cstop\u201D traffic on a State highway\u2014that\u2019s fine. The second action is \u201Cdivert\u201D. The third is \u201Cotherwise control\u201D. I\u2019m  just interested in\u2014what is the \u201Cotherwise control\u201D? You either stop, you divert, or you allow to go\u2014maybe that is what the \u201Cotherwise control\u201D component is about. I\u2019d like some clarity around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe other question I have is around safeguards. Closing a stretch of New Zealand State highway, whether it\u2019s State Highway 1, State Highway 2, or State Highway 3\u2014let\u2019s stick with State Highway 1, the main highway that runs from north to south in this country. Being able to ensure that there is a swift movement of people, freight, and other things along that\u2014it is really important that it is able to be productive. Certainly, what we do hear is that when the agency is required to undertake some works or what have you, it\u2019s not a big chunk of State Highway 1 that gets effectively shut down for an extended period of time, although there are occasions where there are things that happen\u2014weather events, more often\u2014where there is a requirement for parts of the State highway network to be shut down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBut what safeguards exist to ensure that the power to close\u2014which is quite a significant power; this is not a circumstance where the police are looking to manage the movement of traffic through, perhaps, say, an emergency circumstance where there may have been a crash or something similar. This is for the State highway to be closed for a period of time, and that causes significant inconvenience to many people. If we all reflect on holiday periods when the State highway network is extremely busy, where there is some obstacle or barrier to swift movement along the network, that does cause some frustration, but these things need to be safe. In circumstances where alternative routes are required to be taken, that does add significant time. It adds significant costs at the moment, as this country is facing a fuel crisis, as well. These are the sorts of things that need to be considered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESo what safeguards are in place to ensure that the closure of parts of the State highway network is not done without having sufficient oversight? There is a requirement for the agency to notify those three statutory roles there, but there is nothing in here that identifies what that particular threshold is. Yes, it is to do with closing a State highway and for it to be for the protection and safety of the public\u2014and that could create a whole range of different options, within that particular formula\u2014but how can there be some confidence that this is not going to be a power that is utilised freely for reasons other than what is absolutely essential when it comes to safety considerations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u00223510c4754ae27cdbeee48ab4335442f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223510c4754ae27cdbeee48ab4335442f8\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (10:38)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ll run over\u2014not run over; that\u2019s not a good term. I\u2019ll run through a few of the questions from Tangi Utikere. Just in terms of the question about some examples of when the power might be used, some of the examples I have been provided would include, I think, things the member has referred to: potential risk of landslide, avalanche, bushfires, or other severe weather events or disasters. The power here, essentially, for the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) is analogous to that power which exists with road-controlling authorities that have their own networks. The NZTA doesn\u2019t have the equivalent power at the moment, so we\u2019re providing them with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn terms of the question around what happens at the intersection of two State highways\u2014I think the question was around State highways and local roads. There will already be pre-existing agreements between local councils and NZTA on the agreed maintenance boundaries between those councils, so I would just encourage and assume they would be working together on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere was a question about what \u201Cotherwise control\u201D traffic would mean. Of course, you\u2019ve got\u2014I\u2019m heading back to first-year law here\u2014\u201Cstop, divert, or otherwise control traffic\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E If you wanted to maybe reduce the speed with which traffic goes through a certain area, rather than stop traffic completely, or divert traffic to a completely different road, there\u2019s an argument that if you didn\u2019t provide the ability to otherwise control, in theory, some clever cookie could argue that you\u2019re not allowed to reduce the speed of traffic going through that road at that time to be able to, maybe, manage a partial blockage of the road where you\u2019re cleaning that up. That would be where \u201Cotherwise control\u201D comes into that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFinally, what guardrails or safeguards exist for, say, the closure of State Highway 1? Without giving away my address, I live on State Highway 1, so I\u2019m very interested in the limited closure of State Highway 1, whether that\u2019s where I live or around the country. I would just point to the existing safeguards that are provided both in this amendment and the Land Transport Act generally, which is that the New Zealand Transport Agency can only exercise the power if it considers it appropriate to do so for the protection and safety of the public. Once that consideration of whether or not the public needs to be protected and kept safe is made, that power would presumably no longer become available. I\u2019ll get some advice, but possibly there is a longer-term ability to close or control State highways that isn\u2019t immediately available in times of emergency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e66329e431ea47019b41524c6ef2954a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a521aad4fcffa3f8f5a7dbbaf9dd4d5a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e66329e431ea47019b41524c6ef2954a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a521aad4fcffa3f8f5a7dbbaf9dd4d5a\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN (Green) (10:41)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ve got a couple of questions in Part 1, and they\u2019re about the notification of closure. I was just wondering whether it would be useful for the territorial local authority also to be included in that list?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe other one\u2014and maybe I\u2019m not clear on this\u2014but whose responsibility, if any, is it to update the navigation system many people use, which is Google Maps? Will it just get updated because it finds that people are not going that way, or could one be more proactive, especially if it\u2019s a planned closure, and actually update Google Maps? I know that they do accept information from the general public, but my understanding is that there are faster ways to update Google Maps by a trusted authority. If you change the entrance to a rural property to somewhere different, you can update that yourself, and they will eventually correct it, but I think there must be a more effective mechanism for local authorities. I just think that this hasn\u2019t quite got into this portion of the 21\u003Csup\u003Est\u003C/sup\u003E century yet. I do have a further question on restrictions on use of motorways, but that\u2019s separate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u002242339f44236a9a9a2654d1b703811169\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242339f44236a9a9a2654d1b703811169\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (10:42)\u003C/span\u003E: I think there\u2019s an open question as to whether or not you would legislate the requirement to update particular mapping technologies\u2014Google, Apple, whichever map you use. From memory and from experience, it happens quite quickly already. I\u2019d have to probably dig quite deeply into what the processes are that both territorial authorities and the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) follow in terms of updating and providing warnings online. I know NZTA provides rode closure warnings on its website. I\u2019d have to check the technical details of how those flow through into mapping systems. It\u2019s probably beyond the scope of primary legislation to direct, because, of course, you could then get into the situation of legislating that something happens when it is already happening and just putting yet another burden on NZTA at a time when they\u2019re trying to deal with the issue there and then, which could be a landslide or something similar.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIn terms of notifying territorial authorities\u2014again, it\u2019s a reasonable question to raise. This section essentially limits it to the emergency services in order to allow them knowledge of where they can and can\u2019t get to. If they are having to respond to an emergency themselves, knowing that a road is closed and that they will have to take a different route is very important to them. Providing that requirement to notify as soon as practicable is important. Of course, under the normal operating procedures of NZTA and road-controlling authorities, they would be communicating around road closures anyway. So I don\u2019t know if we need to put that in the statute, but it\u2019s certainly a valid point to raise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e66329e431ea47019b41524c6ef2954a\u0022 data-id=\u00227eb5d414475ac887223a50dffa0cb6fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e66329e431ea47019b41524c6ef2954a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227eb5d414475ac887223a50dffa0cb6fb\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN (Green) (10:44)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, and thank you for your responses there. I do look forward to finding out a little bit more about whose responsibility it is. If you think about those ambulance services, I don\u2019t know, but I would imagine they\u2019re using the same mapping systems that everybody else is to see where there are blockages or slow-downs or things like that. I\u2019m sure that would be worth having a look at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe next clause, clause 5, which amends section 82, talks about pedestrians on \u201Cinfrastructure that is designed for pedestrian use; and located on the motorway\u201D. I just wanted a little bit more information to check that \u201Cpedestrian\u201D includes somebody using a mobility scooter or a wheelchair. Often, pedestrians and cyclists are often lumped together in infrastructure. Does this mean infrastructure that is designed for pedestrian-only use, or does it include shared use? And when it says, \u201Clocated on the motorway\u201D, does that mean the roading corridor, does that mean an overbridge, or whatever? I would really like to know a little bit more about that, because pedestrians are not advocated for as often as they should be in the transport system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u002231142a325fc9846443a247c0bf1b542c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231142a325fc9846443a247c0bf1b542c\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (10:46)\u003C/span\u003E: Just to go back to a question before from Tangi Utikere around long-term closures: under the Transport (Vehicular Traffic Road Closure) Regulations 1965, agencies can undertake road closures under that regulation, but they have to give 42 days\u2019 notice to the public. These powers allow the road closure to take place before utilising those existing powers for, maybe, longer-term road closures to fix a substantial issue with a road. There is pre-existing ability to undertake road closure, just not at short notice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1f4d0f843a4f2b2da6fac2609eaf7f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1f4d0f843a4f2b2da6fac2609eaf7f9\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour) (10:46)\u003C/span\u003E: Not having been on the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, I haven\u2019t had an opportunity to examine this bill. Some thoughts have occurred to me on it now, in this committee of the Whole House stage. We\u2019ve all become, alas, too familiar with road closures in recent years, particularly due to the impact of weather events and so on. It has made me think of a particular incident that occurred before children\u2014BC\u2014so it was a long time ago. I recall my husband and I getting stopped on State Highway 1, and it was actually to do with, I think, a firearms incident. It wasn\u2019t a New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) closure; it was clearly a police matter or something like that. It was quite legitimate, being stopped; there was no problem with it. We could see the reason for it\u2014the public safety reason.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EWhat I wanted to ask the Minister, because I don\u2019t know and don\u2019t understand that, is to what extent the powers that are available here now, through this bill, to NZTA, are analogous to the powers that are available to the police to close a State highway and analogous to, I presume, the fire service, in some circumstances, and so on. To what extent do those agencies have the reciprocal duty here to notify NZTA and so on? I\u2019m just looking to see that we\u2019ve got sort of analogous powers sitting here, because, obviously, a little bit of consistency in the law is a good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1eed588dc8654e1b9dbcfaf2ca29ba9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1eed588dc8654e1b9dbcfaf2ca29ba9\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (10:48)\u003C/span\u003E: I think one of the issues that we\u2019re trying to solve here is that, as I understand it, the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) has previously relied on powers under the Policing Act to stop or control roads. There are, I think, some clear issues with that; that it\u2019s not necessarily a policing issue that may be needed to control a road. In times of emergency or to fix a slip, the appropriate power would lie with NZTA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not sure what the reciprocal responsibilities are on the police to notify other authorities. I can probably get some advice on whether or not there are reciprocal duties. The idea of all of this is to try to align it as much as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EJust to Celia Wade-Brown\u2019s point on closure notices: I\u2019m advised that closures are published through the New Zealand Transport Agency\u2019s official systems, which are then consumed by third-party platforms via intermediaries. The member\u2019s nodding and understands that, so she\u2019s a step ahead of me. What I understand is that it basically happens all automatically. They suck the information out of one bucket and put it into another so we can all read it on our devices to make sure we get the quickest way home. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002201f738f244724e5b8da066dba7a6a526\u0022 data-id=\u002297d6ebcb80a0de88935bc5e0e3587948\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002201f738f244724e5b8da066dba7a6a526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297d6ebcb80a0de88935bc5e0e3587948\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour) (10:49)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank you, Minister, for those answers. It\u2019s one of those subject matters that you think, maybe, there\u2019s not much in it or that it doesn\u2019t necessarily have lots of nuance, but when you start asking questions and then hearing answers from the Minister, all sorts of other scenarios spring up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI just had a couple of very quick questions, and that is, given what you\u2019ve said so far and how that works both in the context of the analogous kind of powers that the New Zealand Transport Agency would now have in relation to other organisations and the types of scenarios or contexts in which that could be used\u2014so if we think of regions where they\u2019re absolutely reliant on that single transport corridor, how will impacts on freight and other emergency access be assessed properly before exercising this power, unless it was an absolute rigid, you know, emergency situation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThen, Minister, if significant decisions are being made under urgency, which I should imagine they would be if it was to be an emergency situation, is there any requirement for any kind of post-decision review or any subsequent public reporting on the closures that were made? Is that part of the thinking? That would certainly help flesh out that picture a bit more fully. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5c2dfd4fd891af4de68f57df9b8d4d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5c2dfd4fd891af4de68f57df9b8d4d1\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (10:51)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just touch on the question from Celia Wade-Brown just around that offer around advocacy for pedestrians, particularly wheelchair users. I guess the purpose of this clause is to fix an issue where pedestrians currently aren\u2019t allowed to use pedestrian infrastructure within roading corridors. So pedestrian could include an individual wheeling a bicycle, but generally if you are on a bicycle, you are entitled to use the roading infrastructure as it is so they wouldn\u2019t be counted as a pedestrian.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd622bd753b7e7ea0ed1fb394057aae7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd622bd753b7e7ea0ed1fb394057aae7\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (10:51)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I thank the Minister for his responses, and my colleague Dr McLellan\u2019s right, those responses lead to more questions. Very interesting indeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ECan I just ask the Minister about the agency\u2019s requirement to notify the New Zealand Police, Fire and Emergency New Zealand, and the relevant ambulatory services. When we talk about notification, there are often requirements that need to be taken. Whilst I understand them\u2014and I thank the Minister for explaining \u201Cas soon as practicable of any action taken under subsection (1)\u201D; I understand that\u2014what is the actual sort of notification process? Is it that there\u2019s a formalised process where this needs to be in writing? Is it just that there is a conversation\u2014you know, you happen to be talking to a New Zealand Police officer who might be heading down towards the closure of the road and letting them know that\u2019s how it is? I mean, how is this information captured? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBecause when it comes to agencies and notification, there is a whole sort of array of different opportunities that might exist there, but not only that, this also goes to the point that Dr McLellan has asked around the reporting mechanism, if there is one at all. For example, if it\u2019s determined that Fire and Emergency New Zealand is the appropriate agency that needs to be notified under this particular clause, is there a requirement for the agency to explain why it is that the stretch of State highway network has been closed, and for what period of time? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s nothing in the bill that indicates the requirements around notification. Is it just that the agency simply has to let one of those three parties, or agencies, know and that\u2019s it? Is there an expectation that they need to\u2014for example, if the agency contacts New Zealand Police and tells them on the Tuesday morning that this stretch of State highway is closed, are they expected to indicate that it\u2019s going to be closed for three days, 10 days, two weeks, whatever? Is there a requirement for them to notify the same agency, statutory agency, once the closure is no longer actually in place and the State highway network is fully operational again? Or is it just as it would appear that all the New Zealand Transport Agency need to do is just let one of those agencies know that \u201CYep, we\u2019ve closed the State highway\u201D but there\u2019s nothing further?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESo just a bit of clarity; there surely must be some expectation about the nature of communication, and I get that you don\u2019t want to perhaps be as prescriptive in primary legislation around all the steps that need to be taken, but what can the community expect in circumstances where either New Zealand Police, Fire and Emergency New Zealand, or the relevant ambulance services have been informed or notified that there is a closure under this clause? What would that look like?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u00229c9af3e309181e083b91773530f8d7c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c9af3e309181e083b91773530f8d7c6\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (10:54)\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member\u2019s last sentence probably captures it. I think it would be difficult to prescribe in too much detail the exact requirements for notification, particularly in a situation where you\u2019re looking at an emergency to protect safety and people and there is need for flexibility. There are, you know, existing processes for the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) to communicate and notify other agencies about things that are happening, and I would trust and encourage them to continue those processes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll just note for the member and for the public that the requirement under clause 4(3) is to notify the New Zealand Police, Fire and Emergency, and the relevant ambulance services. So you\u2019d generate an expectation that all of those services would be notified upon a road closure. Just for the avoidance of doubt there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll try to keep the answers shorter and succinct because I\u2019m wary of creating too much extra work for Mr Utikere at this time of the morning, but he did follow up on his colleague\u2019s question around post-decision reviews. We were getting into a back and forth about judicial review. You know, if people are concerned about decisions made, there is the ultimate review of judicial review. But the Government and NZTA, through its own internal business processes, can choose to review internal decision making from time to time as part of their normal business practice. I would put it in their hands as an operational matter that they would be the best place to determine whether or not they need to undertake reviews of significant decisions based on the context and the impact of those decisions at the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dca7b20260b94cda81a3187e58a1d7c9\u0022 data-id=\u0022e71c13f02f8763c692ed1776b358c3bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dca7b20260b94cda81a3187e58a1d7c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e71c13f02f8763c692ed1776b358c3bd\u0022\u003EMIKE DAVIDSON (Green) (10:56)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I\u2019ve just got some questions in relation to the answers you had for clause 5 on the section 82 amendment. I guess it\u2019s in relation\u2014because the answers that the Minister was giving were in regards to cycles, which I think is covered, from memory, around section 84 of the Government Roading Powers Act, where basically they\u2019re excluded from motorways unless it\u2019s allowed, which has to be, obviously, stated. This is actually around pedestrians, and I guess the question\u2019s more around wheelchair users, which, in my understanding, are defined as pedestrians. But then it goes further\u2014I think we need to know about people on roller skates, skateboards, scooters, and e-scooters, which aren\u2019t defined as pedestrians, they are defined as vehicles, and whether they would be excluded from those pedestrian infrastructures, which I think is quite important when we see the amount of people that are now on e-scooters, whether they are actually allowed to go on to pedestrian infrastructure when they\u2019re defined as vehicles, not pedestrians.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ESo while there was an answer around cycles, there was no actual answer around wheelchair users, which my understanding is that they are pedestrians, but then also people on roller skates, skateboards, e-scooters, and scooters, and all those are actually defined as vehicles. So I\u2019m just wondering: what is the ruling on that, and, actually, will they be restricted from infrastructure that is designed for pedestrians and therefore completely excluded from that motorway corridor?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u002242bebccad7739aa783e24d8e6934bd2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242bebccad7739aa783e24d8e6934bd2e\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (10:58)\u003C/span\u003E: I think we could go down a rabbit hole of finding every kind of box that has wheels that you could get around on in public, but for the avoidance of doubt, a wheelchair user is a pedestrian and would be entitled to use pedestrian infrastructure. Good news for the member, there are changes coming for the usage of things like bicycles for young children and e-scooters\u2014to be able to use them on footpaths. So my advice would be any infrastructure which is designed for pedestrian use, albeit a footpath, or an overbridge, or even a cycle way along a busy road that might be a dual use, you know, along the Ashburton Bridge, you\u2019ve got a bit of a side part to the bridge on State Highway 1 where you can both walk and cycle across or walk your bicycle across if you choose to do so and take into account the beautiful vistas of Canterbury.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just say, take a common-sense approach to what counts as a pedestrian and we\u2019ll go from there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u0022b98aa94d7b79ca6b862903a47ae080bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b98aa94d7b79ca6b862903a47ae080bd\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (10:59)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Following on from that point that the Minister has made, the pedestrian aspect, I get that, but what\u2019s captured here in clause 5 (e)(i) is that the piece of infrastructure is \u201Cdesigned for pedestrian use;\u201D. So there\u2019s no requirement for the infrastructure to actually be utilised or used for pedestrian use, but rather just in the design phase. So is it possible that this will capture pieces of infrastructure that initially might be designed for a particular purpose and actually the operational aspect of the infrastructure is quite different from what it was designed to do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u00224c8aa583046968b9d07c4d7502e50776\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c8aa583046968b9d07c4d7502e50776\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (11:00)\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member could just analyse the clause and determine that if a piece of infrastructure was designed for pedestrian use, it is able to be used by pedestrians when it is located on a motorway. I think the clause speaks for itself. I don\u2019t know if there\u2019s much more technicality needed for that. Just to close it off, there was a question earlier on about whether police have a reciprocal duty to also report or to make other agencies aware of road closure? The Policing Act enables police to temporarily close roads if they believe there will be public disorder, danger to the public, or serious offences committed. There is no legislative requirement for the police to inform other parties. However, they do regularly communicate with the New Zealand Transport Agency and other emergency services, obviously, to enable the safe and swift passage of those services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u002274c04e0e399d9220c8438fc1894fc413\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274c04e0e399d9220c8438fc1894fc413\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (11:01)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair, my apologies. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223237b2bff3e30a04ca84c2156bf17ea9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Keep it really short because we\u2019re honing in now. Just quick questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc6434013ca684e7d63de4f30dd29a56\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s fine. Actually, this is just my last question, unless the Minister gives an erudite answer that requires further analysis, but he\u2019s indicated he\u2019s not going to do that. When the decision is taken by the agency to close part of a State highway or part of the State highway network, there must surely be some sort of hierarchy or delegation within the agency where that decision is taken. Is it the Minister\u2019s expectation or understanding that internal processes will dictate who within the agency can make those determinations and that there\u2019s no issue around some mixed messages in that space?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u0022ada7e190347a6a58f0f6dc4d26dd625d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ada7e190347a6a58f0f6dc4d26dd625d\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (11:01)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022741196e148276ba17f6c9a6c445a21c9\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u002299fff2454ada3cadd35bb3a0f3a382f5\u0022\u003EPart 2 Amendments to Land Transport Act 1998\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022324beba7ed22bf39df394de7b15278f0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We now come to Part 2. Part 2 is the debate on clauses 6 to 60, \u201CAmendments to Land Transport Act 1998\u201D. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd86433d0451a596e48e965b107f8813\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd86433d0451a596e48e965b107f8813\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (11:02)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ll speak to the Amendment Paper (AP), which is before the committee now and which makes a number of changes. Some of them are quite technical and administrative. This is AP 574, which has, I think, been published online a number of days ago. It makes a number of technical changes, but it also makes some what I think are substantive changes when it comes to talking about the digital driver\u2019s licence provisions in this bill. Essentially, what these changes will do is they will recognise existing operational practices to authorise third parties to access driver licence photographs for register maintenance and licence card production. Essentially, at the moment, in order for you to get a driver\u2019s licence, you have to provide a photo. Normally it\u2019s done on site. Then, in order for that photo to go physically on to a card, that photo has to be provided to the people who produce the card, obviously in order to put the photo on the card, print the card, and get the card. All is well; you\u2019ve got your licence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, in going through the digital version of this, the new amendments to the existing statute will enable that process for the digital version of this. An individual\u2019s photograph will be able to be provided to the digital driver\u2019s licence provider in order to be digitally stuck on to the digital card so that you then digitally have that in your digital wallet. We\u2019re going to be saying \u201Cdigital\u201D a lot over the next hour or so. That, essentially, was made clear in the bill as introduced. Now, given that we are maintaining physical drivers\u2019 licences, it should be made clear to the public that even if we create the framework for digital licences and we introduce digital licences, the physical licence stays in New Zealand, and every New Zealander has a right to use their physical licence. In the same way that we provide the authority for third parties to use the photograph to digitally put on the digital licence, we are also replicating that provision in the physical licence production part of the bill just to make sure that they are consistent. That\u2019s the main change that comes through on the AP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe second part of that is that there is a reference currently in the Act to requiring consent to provide your photograph when getting a licence. Now, the view is that that requirement for consent is not required, based on the fact that you cannot get a licence without providing the photograph. The choice is: provide a photograph to get your licence or don\u2019t provide a photograph and choose not to have a licence. It\u2019s, essentially, a\u2014I can\u2019t remember the word when it\u2019s one choice or the other; a dichotomy, di-something, bi-something\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b929593dd9d7f325e4a2675daf2b3ada\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Binary,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228df321fcadf6ac62e90b3b93a070bdc5\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER\u003C/span\u003E: You have a binary choice, right? Thank you, Mr Utikere. You either provide the photo and get the licence, or you don\u2019t provide the photo and you don\u2019t get the licence. The requirement to provide consent for a photograph in order to get your licence isn\u2019t needed, because it\u2019s part of the process itself, so we\u2019re just removing that unnecessary reference to consent and ensure the scope of their authorisation is explicit and appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe other amendments in the AP that I\u2019ll go through are changing the commencement date, when we get to the title and commencement; some savings provisions for maritime regulations to make sure they stay in force; consequential amendments to navigation by-laws; a clarification relating to seafarer employment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d63c161d14f4b1088c3d8db130a9150e\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re in different parts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9640a69ed98bc22eb72ed89b9aaaa2b\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, but I understand we\u2019re going to be voting on the AP in this part, unless the Chair can correct me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c509ccb49bae893807390a051e26cb32\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, we will be voting on the amendments as they relate to Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fc2eb076df39b305691f92ea442a2cb\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Well, I can come to those amendments as they come up in each part. Just to round it off, there is another element around seafarer employment agreements, and inserting a definition of \u201Cinformation system\u201D. Apart from that, I look forward to the very concise, short debate on this part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u00224587b9f414395536cb6da4a10fd0f8c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224587b9f414395536cb6da4a10fd0f8c4\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) \u003C/span\u003E(11:06:38): Thank you, Madam Chair. Thanks to the Associate Minister of Transport for the explanation around the Amendment Paper, which I\u2019ll come to in a moment. One of the, I think, most significant changes in this particular part does relate to the ability for an electronic driver\u2019s licence to be on the cards. The Minister, I think, himself has identified that this is not going to mean that it happens overnight, but it provides the legal ability for an electronic driver\u2019s licence to come into being. One of the real concerns that the Transport and Infrastructure Committee did hear about were privacy considerations and optionality. I think the Minister has sort of touched on this briefly, but I do think it\u2019s none the less important to put the question to him, which is: what assurance can the public have that that optionality does actually exist? There are always circumstances where if you end up wanting to utilise an app for something, that choice comes with particular incentives that really do reward or benefit those that go at that particular avenue, as opposed to those that perhaps get in a line and line up and all of those sorts of things. What\u2019s really important here is that we\u2019re talking about a licence that permits anyone in this country to legally drive on New Zealand roads. What guarantee or assurance can he give the community at large that that optionality is going to remain but also that it\u2019s going to be treated equally as well, I\u2019m not talking about the privacy stuff\u2014we\u2019ll come to that because there are real concerns that have been expressed around that\u2014but my first question is just around the optionality and what assurance the Minister can give that we\u2019re not going to get 12 to 15 years down the track and suddenly the scrum is screwed in favour of digital as opposed to those that might want to continue with the physical optionality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u00223a87b220c40e0dc38ba27f138c2f5c43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a87b220c40e0dc38ba27f138c2f5c43\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (11:08)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I think it\u2019s worth raising and repeating again that there\u2019s nothing in the bill which removes the ability or the right to have a physical driver\u2019s licence. Those in the public who do rely on physical drivers\u2019 licences, or other physical forms of ID actually, should be assured that they will maintain that right. I would need to think of some examples of where there would be significant impact of some sort of fast-track queue where you might use a digital licence or a digital ID compared to a physical one. I could imagine a lot of people use their drivers\u2019 licences to prove their age or prove their identification. Actually, a driver\u2019s licence is there to prove that you have the ability or the legal right to drive the vehicle, but it is used and widely and commonly used as an age verification tool or other identity verification tool. I don\u2019t do much clubbing these days. I haven\u2019t been to Palmerston North nightlife in quite a while\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a04ed2288bafbb1468ebf85f648caf2\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re missing out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f956ca44ffd274db60236c4e0c8d651e\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER\u003C/span\u003E: I am missing out, but there\u2019s plenty to do down in Timaru. Maybe we could go on exchange someday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBut if the queues were somehow quite long at the local bar or club in Palmerston North and there was a bouncer who was physically checking IDs and there was some sort of fast-track pathway where you scanned your digital ID on some sort of digital-checking machine and that released some sort of high-spec futuristic barrier to allow you into the VIP part of Tangi\u2019s nightclub, then I think those are decisions that businesses would make, but I can\u2019t envisage much happening in the world where there would be a significant disadvantage to those who have a physical driver\u2019s licence or a physical form.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think the main takeaway is that there is nothing in this legislation nor in the Government\u2019s programme that jeopardises the ability for people to use their physical drivers\u2019 licences. There is huge advantage to digital drivers\u2019 licences. We spoke about this in the second reading quite a bit, for example, for those of us who are slightly more absent-minded or who do a lot of travelling and their driver\u2019s licence either sits in their pocket or sits in their truck. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIf you were to absent-mindedly leave your driver\u2019s licence in the\u2014I\u2019m not going to say which part of my truck, but let\u2019s say a secure area of my truck. If you were to need to produce it for some sort of other purpose\u2014not for driving your truck, because obviously it\u2019s in there\u2014it would be helpful to have that driver\u2019s licence digitally with you for a lot of purposes, including the ability to get a rental vehicle, including the ability to prove your ID in a Government agency or wherever it is. So there are huge amounts of benefits to having a digital driver\u2019s licence that will come from this framework, but I think any fears around being displaced would be misfounded at this place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f01fc374f4c6cbb465cea95a47287105\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Tracey McLellan. I\u2019m just going to make the comment that I\u2019d be really grateful if members in the committee didn\u2019t sort of take advantage of the scope that the first part of the answer to that question became, so let\u2019s keep to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002201f738f244724e5b8da066dba7a6a526\u0022 data-id=\u002237c5fd7085ab09fdb83332a3e4d6bdf0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002201f738f244724e5b8da066dba7a6a526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237c5fd7085ab09fdb83332a3e4d6bdf0\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour) (11:11)\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. My question is a genuine one in response to the Associate Minister of Transport\u2019s very good response that he\u2019s just delivered. It just raises the question to me, and it may be somewhere, but you talked about having a physical licence and therefore also having a digital licence. I\u2019m assuming you can\u2019t have both, but maybe that\u2019s an incorrect assumption. What is there to prevent, therefore, someone using that as a form of identification or a form of ability to lease a car or whatever, and someone else fraudulently using the physical licence also?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIf you\u2019ve got any thoughts around that basic sort of area\u2014and I can see that you\u2019re getting some advice, but any further information on that? I think it\u2019s part of just making sure that\u2014because this is about public confidence, and no matter what happens, any kind of changes, particularly when we\u2019re digitising something that, you know, well before the age of 15, people start thinking about having their driver\u2019s licence. It\u2019s quite a momentous and really important part of most adult lives, and so when anything changes what generations have come to expect as normal, it will raise some concerns. There will be members of the public, and rightly so, who will apply a level of scrutiny that might not necessarily apply elsewhere, so anything of that nature would be greatly appreciated to inform this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u00228eb29ece817d9a367830802a36b80eb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228eb29ece817d9a367830802a36b80eb9\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (11:13)\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s nothing in the bill that establishes a framework for recognising digital licences that stops you having both. All this bill does is sets up the framework to allow digital drivers\u2019 licences, in particular, to be recognised. We have quite a unique situation\u2014quite a weird situation, really\u2014where we can recognise digital drivers\u2019 licences from other jurisdictions under our existing framework but not our own. For example\u2014and the officials can correct me if this one is wrong\u2014I understand that we can recognise digital licences from New South Wales as being valid forms of identification or driving ability or legality, but we can\u2019t do it for our own, so this bill establishes the framework to be able to legally do that. There will be further Government work to actually implement drivers\u2019 licences themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThen I think there would be good questions as to if you are to have a driver\u2019s licence on a device, how many devices can you have that on? It might be that for security reasons that you\u2019d want that only on one device that is accessible only to the person through biometrics or through some sort of security, but of course the ability for people to steal identification or to share identification with other people for nefarious reasons exists under the current situation whereby you might have a driver\u2019s licence which is lost or stolen and you have to order a replacement licence, then all of a sudden you\u2019ve got two versions of that same licence floating around there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe ability to have both a physical one and a digital one doesn\u2019t necessarily solve that, but, in theory, it should make it a heck of a lot more difficult to do, because you would need to have not only control of the physical device where the digital ID exists but also the ability to access that device. Then there could be a decision made that there is an ability to remotely wipe the identification from that device so that if it was ever stolen or hacked and made available, it could then not be used in that form.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere are a whole lot of safeguards that can be put in place in the future when actually rolling these out, but for now, the framework put in place simply recognises that we are going to move to a system where we can have digital licences, and regulations and decisions made about what that looks like and how that is done will be made at a later date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u00222c012173710d04d0e1289d2eaa5d5959\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c012173710d04d0e1289d2eaa5d5959\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (11:16)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair, and thanks again to the Associate Minister of Transport for his answers. I think that\u2019s actually a very good response around the ability for, potentially, a road user or a licensed driver to have both of those. It might allay some of the issues about leaving physical copies in the truck or wherever that might be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI just want to indicate that Ponsonby Intermediate have arrived in the gallery, and a special shout-out to them. This is really important, because the folk who are observing this debate will probably be the beneficiaries of this particular piece of legislation. For their benefit, we\u2019re talking about drivers\u2019 licences in New Zealand and the ability for them to be electronic drivers\u2019 licences\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242067e22c7a349218b3b868f58eda79d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c5949f0c330469fbd24519a0f108e73\u0022\u003ERachel Boyack\u003C/span\u003E: Once a teacher, always a teacher.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022053a25ee8ea81ada9622b022f2fbb14e\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014once a teacher, always a teacher\u2014rather than having physical licences as the only way forward. Welcome to the Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe question that I have in relation to the Amendment Paper that the Minister has tabled or has previously circulated relates to clause 55. It\u2019s about the ability for the agency to provide a third party with a copy of the imagery and the data that\u2019s stored, but, actually, it\u2019s only the image, as we understand it. Now, this is scoped out by allowing for the purpose to be the maintenance, the creation of the driver\u2019s licence, etc., but when we start talking about a third party, we really do start to kind of open up the gates a little bit there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy question for the Minister is: again, what safeguards are in place to allow for a third party to be considered as appropriate for managing that information? I know the Minister has previously talked about the storing of images and the like. Obviously, that is important for an electronic driver\u2019s licence to be produced, but are we talking about just one third party or is it in the sense that there could be more than one third party utilised for that purpose?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u00228c3da1473095945fcbc6cfb27fd168eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c3da1473095945fcbc6cfb27fd168eb\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (11:18)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, at the risk of getting Mr Utikere into trouble for acknowledging those in the gallery, I would also like to welcome anyone who might be here who might benefit from these law changes in the future, particularly those from Ponsonby.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to say to Mr Utikere, in terms of the Amendment Paper, all this does is, essentially, codifies the existing practice. The agency already provides photographs to third parties in order to physically produce the cards. The New Zealand Transport Agency doesn\u2019t itself have a large card-printing machine or manufacturing facility, as far as I\u2019m aware. They outsource that to specialists who do that kind of stuff, in the same way we do with a lot of physical assets that the Government produces\u2014you know, passports, drivers\u2019 licences, and all these kinds of things. All the safeguards that are required for determining who should or should not be a third party are those safeguards that already exist within existing procurement policies, contracts, privacy legislation. All of the existing statutory frameworks that apply to the procurement and production of drivers\u2019 licences will be there as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI should note, for any aspiring drivers who may or may not be listening today that they will notice that in the windscreen of some of the vehicles that maybe their parents drive there are little paper stickers that may be in the top corner or the bottom corner. These tell people that their vehicle has got a current registration or a current warrant of fitness\u2014actually, no, the warrant is in that corner, and the rego or that it is up to speed with its road-user charges. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis bill also removes the requirement to physically have that little bit of paper in the corner of your window. That might sound a bit weird to have to have a little bit of paper that tells people that your car is registered and that you\u2019ve got the right amount of road-user charges on your vehicle in a world where a lot of that stuff is available digitally. I\u2019ll tell you what, I\u2019ve been on the receiving end of an infringement notice for improperly displaying a bit of paper in the corner of my windscreen and being subject to a $200 fine for it\u2014albeit, not of my own making. I will admit that some issues with the postal service to receive that physical bit of paper\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e930c7d00a1abda8742749b38ae816b\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Because you\u2019re shutting all the postal services down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a8a44e68e07196e7b7d64984fdb6b9d\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014potentially had cost me $200. It\u2019s nothing to do with that, Mr Utikere. For some reason, the little bit of paper could not be delivered to my address, which sits in the middle of Timaru, but I\u2019ll get into that with my local delivery services as to why they could or could not deliver me a tiny bit of paper to put in the corner of my truck.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIn saying all of that, this is supposed to solve that problem. Agencies having access to all that information already; there shouldn\u2019t be a need, and people shouldn\u2019t be subject to a $200 fine for not having a teeny-tiny bit of people in the corner of their windscreen when they\u2019ve done all the right things and got the right number of road-user charges. The agencies already have the information. In this day and age, to require an individual to put a tiny bit of paper in the corner of their vehicle and then be subject to upwards of a $200 fine and further infringements for not paying that fine, we think is outdated and not in keeping with modern practice. We\u2019re going to remove that requirement. If you want to stick a little bit of paper in the corner of your window, feel free to do so, but after this bill passes, you\u2019ll no longer have to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u0022abb42c9a0afa385acaadf81ccbaff018\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abb42c9a0afa385acaadf81ccbaff018\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (11:21)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you\u2014yes, we support that. Optionality is important, and we\u2019ve talked about this whole pile of stickers, potentially, on windscreens. We support that\u2014no problem at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOne of the issues I have signalled is around the access to private data. One of the changes\u2014which I think is a good change, actually\u2014relates to the ability for the holder of a driver\u2019s licence to provide their mobile number as a way of contact and the like. I think that is a sensible way. In select committees across the board at the moment, we\u2019re constantly talking about having to update notification processes, and it\u2019s common practice for email addresses and mobile numbers to be utilised, so we have no problem with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat it does do, Minister, is it introduces into the mix an additional level of personal information that people are handing over and putting into the system. When it comes to personal mobile numbers, when it comes to email addresses, what certainty is there around ensuring that information is protected? We\u2019ve talked about the imagery and who can access that. As we\u2019re starting to see an increase, or will under this bill, in the number of mobile numbers and email addresses that will be utilised as an identifier or a point of contact\u2014which I accept is a very good move\u2014that does need to be balanced with the concerns that have been expressed to the Transport and Infrastructure Committee about privacy of information and the data that\u2019s being captured. How is that going to be accessed, and how will it be protected from being misused or inappropriate or unauthorised access to it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ERunning the risk of hearing from the Minister that the member has answered his own question: it may be that there are processes and systems in place within the agencies and that there are expectations around that. I do think it is reasonable, given that there are some concerns out there around the access to private information and the data being retained and held\u2014new data and new information\u2014to ask how the public can be assured that access to that information is going to be for the appropriate means and won\u2019t be unfairly authorised or, indeed, unfairly accessed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u00228fcd03a0c997634e93809e5414b42bfe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228fcd03a0c997634e93809e5414b42bfe\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (11:24)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member may have asked and answered his own question\u2014but I will say that the Privacy Act provides some pretty strong protections generally for personal information. The member, I think, was in Parliament when they passed the Privacy Act 2020\u2014I\u2019m not too sure. Either way, the member would be aware of the strengthened provisions in the most recent version of the Privacy Act, including increased fines and, essentially, accountability for agencies that get it wrong when they misuse or mistreat personal information. There are a range of protections within the Privacy Act, and there are a range of provisions within statute that I will get some further information on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI would add that digitising drivers\u2019 licences will actually provide an enhanced level of privacy for people. Yep, you\u2019re going to be providing information into a system, which is tightly controlled and tightly monitored as to who can use it, but, at the same time, you are going to be receiving a whole new range of privacy protections. For example, when you\u2019re going to the Palmerston North nightclub, and you\u2019re handing over your driver\u2019s licence, your physical ID, to the bouncer, that contains a whole lot of information on that little card beyond just proving that your face matches the age on the licence. There is a whole lot of stuff on that card that you might not want the particular bouncer to know, including, I believe\u2014I don\u2019t know if my licence has that, but I\u2019m pretty sure some licences have maybe the physical address for where the individual comes from. It might have their donor status; it might have the driver\u2019s licence number itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIf you move to a system where you\u2019ve got a digital driver\u2019s licence and there are trusted checking framework systems in place where you can, through trusted, verified apps\u2014maybe Hospitality NZ might have an app or maybe there might be a general app where you can simply tag the two phones together in some sort of ID-checking process\u2014at that point, the only information that you have transmitted to the bouncer on the door of the nightclub would be that you are of age. You are the person who is verified to have this identification, and you are of age. You\u2019re not transmitting any other personal information (a) to that bouncer individually themselves or (b) to the institution that may hold that information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think that\u2019s actually a huge improvement on protection of privacy. It means that when you\u2019re now being asked to provide your identification for purpose A, you\u2019re not disclosing a whole range of other information that you might not actually want people to be privy to\u2014particularly strangers. You might not want the bouncer on the door to know. If you are someone who doesn\u2019t want strangers to know where your address is, I think being able to provide the precise information that that establishment needs without going any further actually has some additional protections for privacy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u00228a3f55d545a6200c6a925421beac35ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a3f55d545a6200c6a925421beac35ac\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (11:27)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Minister. I won\u2019t comment on the night life in Palmerston North. It\u2019s been a long time since I\u2019ve had to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f55b91cd90b974e26092fad97a436a07\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, we\u2019ve learnt all about that, and we have guests in the gallery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252fe611f036acebab00b1058bbe903f5\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. The Minister has touched on one aspect that hasn\u2019t been referred to yet, and it is donor status. At the moment, the physical copy of the driver\u2019s licence can indicate the fact that someone is a donor\u2014well, it indicates the donor status by choice. We assume that that would be the same for a digital or an electronic licence. We are assuming that the timely access to that clinical information is not going to compromised by virtue of the fact that someone has an electronic or a digital driver\u2019s licence as opposed to a physical one. The first question for the Minister will be just around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy other question is\u2014and this is sort of picked up in clause 21, which introduces new section 30UA. This does relate to the immediate suspension of a licence for significant health and safety reasons. When you go to subclause 3 of that, it talks about the time upon which the suspension comes into effect. When someone has an electronic or a digital licence, the surrender of that licence is perhaps much easier to do as opposed to a physical copy, which relies on either the licence, I guess, being taken from someone at the roadside or in circumstances where they are near a law enforcement officer, or on the individual surrendering the physical copy, if that\u2019s what\u2019s needed, themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ECan the Minister just perhaps identify that there is still going to be some consistency around the suspension of a driver\u2019s licence, and are there any loopholes if someone has an electronic or digital licence as opposed to a physical one when it comes to the ability to give effect to the suspension? It might be that\u2014actually, no, I won\u2019t share what my views are, because that might answer the question. I\u2019ll let the Minister answer it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u00222636963d03f154362927a72c68abea30\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222636963d03f154362927a72c68abea30\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (11:30)\u003C/span\u003E: I mentioned before that I was going to give some examples around privacy; I will do that and I\u2019ll address those other two questions as well. So the question before was around requiring mobile numbers for digital drivers\u2019 licences and the certainty about information being protected. So there are requirements that the information is shared only with the appropriate security protocols in place. The previous Government passed a trusted digital framework law and there are regulations that are in place and can be made around setting conditions and requirements for providers of apps that may be information-checking apps, and different security classifications\u2014that\u2019s all existing at the moment. So the system is in place for a trusted digital framework and so the digital driver\u2019s licence will work within that kind of framework to ensure that the appropriate security protocols are in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EData is subject to New Zealand Government Protective Security Requirements, Privacy Act safeguards, New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) privacy policies and guidelines, and third parties can only use data to the extent necessary to provide contracted services, and must not transfer, store, or make available NZTA data outside New Zealand without written consent. There are strict contractual obligations to secure accreditation; there are international standards around that, and also, they\u2019re regularly audited. There are a wide range of policies, practices, and statutory provisions in place\u2014guard rails to protect data. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EJust on the donor question: it\u2019s a really good question and we\u2019ve struggled in our country for many, many years with our donor rates. One of the issues with donor registration is that for a long time, and it is still the case, that even if you have donor status on your driver\u2019s licence, it is still up to your loved ones and your families whether or not they\u2019d give permission for your organs to be shared with others who may need them. My colleague Mr MacLeod has a member\u2019s bill to help address some of those issues around, you know, what you say you want to do with your organs on your driver\u2019s licence should be what happens. But we know there are some ethical complications in there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBut putting all that aside, there is a wider issue of accessing that information. Where is that information stored? I don\u2019t think the digitisation of drivers\u2019 licences will change that too much, because whether or not you have to find the individual\u2019s personal physical licence or whether or not you have to access their phone, often these decisions are being made at pace in short periods of time with high levels of stress and emotion around them. So, ideally, there would be a system which doesn\u2019t rely on a physical licence or a digital licence to acknowledge that an individual is a donor and has expressed their wish to be a donor, and that the register of that information is accessible to the appropriate health professionals without them needing to, you know, rifle through someone\u2019s handbag or find the keys to their truck or try and get into their phone to determine their donor status. So regardless of whether we digitise drivers\u2019 licences, I think the question of access of information of donors is our wider one to be addressed through both this system but the wider reforms to organ donation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFinally, to the question of: are there any potential loopholes in the system around surrendering licences? Well, if there were, I would probably not highlight them immediately, in public\u2014I can\u2019t think of any. If there were some loopholes that were brought to our attention that needed to be remedied before the end of the committee stage, we could do so. But, as far as I am aware, this sets the framework up to allow those licences to be surrendered, and the process of rolling out drivers\u2019 licences would provide for their ability to surrender a digital licence in the same way that you could surrender a physical licence. Now, how that is practically rolled out would be up to, I guess, the agency that is actually providing the digital driver\u2019s licence, but there are many jurisdictions overseas who have done that. I could think of some examples that you could do: it could be an automatic revocation of the licence from the system, removal of authorisation, temporary prevention of access to the particular app that holds that information\u2014there are a whole wide range of things that are beyond this bill and would be for the implementation phase. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u0022c17d8e25403c768071ced592453a0ec1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c17d8e25403c768071ced592453a0ec1\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (11:34)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. That final point that the Associate Minister of Transport\u2019s touched on about revocation as an option: is it an opportunity, given that there is an increasing reliance, and this has been introduced through this bill, to have electronic email addresses, identification, or, indeed, mobile numbers for text messaging and the like, that the revocation process could be a little bit actually smoother and enhanced as a result; whereas the revocation can take place in the system and the notification to the person doesn\u2019t necessarily rely on the mail system but, instead, could be easily sent by way of electronic means or via text message. I mean, there\u2019s nothing in the bill around that, but would that provide some equality between having to rely on the fact that someone has to present to the police station or to the local New Zealand Automobile Association, or whatever, and physically surrender as opposed to a blanket opportunity to revoke if warranted, and then the notification is a little bit smoother rather than waiting on things to come more slowly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u002224e392ec04e3cfd2a7499668c1c6e92e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224e392ec04e3cfd2a7499668c1c6e92e\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (11:35)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I think that\u2019s right. And there is an irony in having to physically surrender a driver\u2019s licence by delivering it to someone without, necessarily, the ability to do that legally because you can no longer drive. If anything, it should make that process more straightforward and simple.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0defae05fc05e804976d0f39296283c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 2, set out on Amendment Paper 574, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended is agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224a5cee0563acddaf8543101f88ddbe3f\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e61e38e4350cdb18cc8839d3f1b3ba56\u0022\u003EPart 3 Amendments to Land Transport Management Act 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fb95d70cc0b2f79087b8a86b8cf271a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We come now to Part 3, the debate on clauses 61 to 64, \u201CAmendments to Land Transport Management Act 2003\u201D. The question is that Part 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u00229cc74c9b1d72d8daaaf42f1678bb9e7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229cc74c9b1d72d8daaaf42f1678bb9e7e\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (11:36)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to have a look at clause 63. This is about an amendment that allows for people to be paying a toll. We will just sort of delve into this a little bit. This talks about the name, address, and the electronic address or the email address if someone does hold one, and anything that leads to the knowledge as to identification of the person in charge of the vehicle at the time. So this is basically about liability and recouping costs of a toll payment. Of course, we don\u2019t have that in the Manawat\u016B because of the toll-free Te Ahu a Turanga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242067e22c7a349218b3b868f58eda79d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234c1001fce3029a0d098b70cbefb0443\u0022\u003ERachel Boyack\u003C/span\u003E: Well done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022caec8e4d893072d566e6ddbe5517b773\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, thank you. I\u2019ll take that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe issue around photo capture is important because we\u2019ve talked about the images being captured and into the system\u2014this is a question: are there any circumstances in which that information could be accessed for the purposes of a driver fulfilling other aspects of responsibility for being a driver? So, you know, there\u2019s a driver\u2019s licence that has an electronic image and it\u2019s captured, could that be utilised in any other way, digitally, to assist with identification for other responsibilities around toll or infringements or anything like that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4245b8ee94b9e4cedeccaccfc7fb755\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4245b8ee94b9e4cedeccaccfc7fb755\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (11:38)\u003C/span\u003E: Just in terms of a general approach to privacy, you can only use personal information for the purpose of which it was collected. So assuming that the collection of the photograph in the first instance has\u2014albeit, it could be a wide range of purposes, but a limited one\u2014if the collection fell outside of those purposes, then it could not be used for those purposes without explicit authorisation to do so. So the answer depends on whether or not the existing collection of the information does or doesn\u2019t allow it, but, essentially, it\u2019s kind of similar to the back and forth we had a while back in that if the purpose of collecting the photograph is to use it for other means, then that would have to be made explicit at the time of collection; if it\u2019s not, then it would be restricted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u00227bfa65496a16553c938afeb1e5750d2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227bfa65496a16553c938afeb1e5750d2f\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (11:39)\u003C/span\u003E: When I look at clause 64, this is a little bit unusual because it seeks to validate declarations that had already been made back in time. So this is seeking to, basically\u2014it applies to a declaration that a road is a State highway, that was made on or after 1 August 2008 and before this bill sort of kicks in once Royal assent is given. So the question, really, is around the retrospective requirement for validation. Why is that necessary and what risk of legal challenges kind of prompted this this provision? The Minister has indicated that he is just seeking some advice\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022080aa2c986587bdbc510090418793f66\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bfd870898ffd462c54905ad9838d509\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014which I do appreciate. As part of that advice, I think what would be quite helpful is an estimate as to how many declarations the Minister believes might actually be made under this provision, because we are talking about actions that may have been taken that, by virtue of this bill being passed, it effectively validates either a declaration made at the time or retrospectively applies something to a part of the State highway network. We do see this from time to time in legislation, where there are often bespoke requirements, where things are fit for purpose and they need to be given effect to. But, in terms of passing a law that validates previous actions that have been taken\u2014or maybe not even actions but just the mere fact that they have been established over time, and now this bill will validate them in some particular formal fashion\u2014it is important to understand that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIf the Minister is in a position, once he has received that advice\u2014it may be, I don\u2019t know, that this was something that could have been prevented, or it may be that, because of the changes that have been advanced, this is a consequential change that needs to happen to give effect to the status of something after 1 August and before 2026.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u0022da64029bf7b50f3cca4d5c40bf17a571\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da64029bf7b50f3cca4d5c40bf17a571\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (11:41)\u003C/span\u003E: I am getting some advice. There is a bit of extra information requested in that question, so I will allow the officials to provide some information if we can. I\u2019m aware that neither Mr Utikere nor I were around on 1 August 2008, so probably neither of us knows the background to that particular date, but we\u2019ll try to get that information as we can. If there are no other questions in this part, with the Chair\u2019s indulgence, I will address it if we do happen to move on to the next part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u002223ee856291ee86c7a62cfd5627b541a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223ee856291ee86c7a62cfd5627b541a0\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (11:42)\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I seek leave for us to move to Part 4, following which to return to Part 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ad3e033cd2bb9bfa929983d107ff89c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we can either return to Part 3 or I can allow you to discuss your particular questions around Part 3. Do you have other questions around Part 3?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fe4dcfdc557883a94e5ee275087ffa5\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, no, it\u2019s just relating to the answer to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af799fd29c5e2e3ee0ec1a849063ee39\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: OK, I will allow the answer and the member a follow-up question during Part 4 if that is required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u0022306d3c02ae14524b0249ee6c36a8a05a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022306d3c02ae14524b0249ee6c36a8a05a\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (11:42)\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. That\u2019s fine, but it\u2019s just that it might relate to the vote being taken on Part 3, as to whether Labour supports or votes against.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8ca9aaa9e4590fc5f6dbb895d6c1529\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: OK\u2014OK. The member has no more current questions on Part 3? I\u2019ll just take a little bit of advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EWith the leave of the committee, I seek approval to move on to Part 4\u2014just suspend Part 3 for the moment until we have the answers\u2014and then go back to Part 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022deb016c483b1c71808561abe1c4dcc69\u0022\u003EHon James Meager\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s too complicated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e8d39ac860a699ff8c106ebf9c57c63\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: OK. I don\u2019t have approval for that, but I\u2019ll go back to what I said originally: I will allow the member to traverse some of Part 3 in Part 4. I call the Hon James Meager. We may well have the answer!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u00224a4e60e4aa3f197e6017312a1fd27894\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a4e60e4aa3f197e6017312a1fd27894\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (11:43)\u003C/span\u003E: With the miraculous provision of time and a little bit of creative extension, I have received some information from my officials.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe provision in clause 64 is intended to be retrospective and to remedy a technical error to validate a matter understood and intended to be lawful, and I refer to the Legislation Design and Advisory Committee guidelines about the appropriate use of retrospectivity. It fixes an error with the definition of \u201Croad\u201D in past amendments to the Land Transport Management Act and validates the State highways that have been declared since this error happened. The error dates to the repeal of section 60 of the Government Roading Powers Act in 2008.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u002274536a8038a14ce31b61780e4f7b4f44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274536a8038a14ce31b61780e4f7b4f44\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (11:44)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank the Associate Minister of Transport for his answer. On that basis, the Labour Party will be supporting Part 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253c16e83b6b262ab3137f7f8b0e90d02\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 3 set out on Amendment Paper 574 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aadbcf968db083100d9b239e9f7d4789\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dba3410faaa21b4d16b326c1d7c18693\u0022\u003EPart 4 Amendments to Maritime Transport Act 1994, and New Schedule 1AA\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f9840f627a27a10f6ae8163416b1fa3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We now come to Part 4, the debate on clauses 65 to 101, \u201CAmendments to Maritime Transport Act 1994\u201D, including proposed new clause 101A and new Schedule 1AA. The question is that Part 4 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u002202400a99e93abb2271e7cb4d91b9db33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202400a99e93abb2271e7cb4d91b9db33\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (11:45)\u003C/span\u003E: Kia orana, Madam Chair. It\u2019s great to move into the maritime space now. We\u2019re still waiting for ferries around here, but it\u2019s still great to move into the maritime space!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe interesting thing with this particular part is that it, basically, seeks to, as I understand it, Minister, bring New Zealand into a space where we are consistent with our international obligations elsewhere around the world. I think that is a commendable place to be, and it\u2019s a good thing we\u2019re heading in that particular direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhen we\u2019re looking at the statutory duty around entering into seafarer employment agreements, can the Minister just identify what his perspective is on any issues in terms of rolling that out, to ensure that it delivers on the outcomes that the Government and others are expecting of it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u0022e73e44974a3bf2abb8e030424fb62a36\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e73e44974a3bf2abb8e030424fb62a36\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (11:46)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I don\u2019t see any issues with it. There is an amendment around this in Amendment Paper 574, and I just wanted to clarify the reason for that amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhen we look at clause 67, we\u2019re going to be replacing \u201Cseafarer employed to work on the voyage\u201D with the slightly more complicated definition\u2014but it will all make sense in a second\u2014\u201Cperson on the voyage who is a seafarer within the meaning of paragraph (a)(i) of the definition of that term in section 2(1)\u201D. Essentially, the intention of this is to capture individuals who are seafarers but who are not employed in the traditional sense and still provide them with an employment-related agreement. Those are individuals such as cadets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI will just refer to my previous notes, just so I can get that absolutely crystal clear. The amendment clarifies that the requirement to enter into a seafarer employment agreement applies to seafarers who are engaged for hire or reward but who may not be employed under a typical contract of employment. That\u2019s when those cadets come into play there. It just provides a little bit of extra protection for our many wonderful cadets, many of whom I had the pleasure of engaging with over the weekend at our Anzac Day services and who will also be the recipients of, I\u2019m sure the member would agree, excellent use of taxpayer investment into seafarer training throughout our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2512737acd8f714a3eaa13c62679558\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2512737acd8f714a3eaa13c62679558\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (11:48)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the Associate Minister of Transport for that and certainly that clarity covering cadets and others who might actually fall in that particular category who are not covered by an employment agreement, or thereabouts. We\u2019re certainly very happy to see that, and the protections, also, beyond that for seafarers is really important from the Labour Party\u2019s perspective, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EHow does the Minister anticipate that Maritime New Zealand will be able to continue to monitor and enforce the compliance around recruitment and placement in service and the provisions that will be introduced? It\u2019s great that we\u2019re bringing ourselves up to spec and up to international standards. New Zealand has always been seen as a leader in the maritime space, so this will continue to underscore the significance and important aspect that that brings and that it does provide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EHow does he anticipate that Maritime New Zealand, who is charged in the regulatory space with delivering a lot of what this will be asking for, and that\u2019s no easy feat, will not just monitor and oversee things but will ensure that the enforcement of these conditions, and also compliance, will follow\u2014that they\u2019re able to do exactly that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6fda1e522f57165ac4beebcaf640859\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6fda1e522f57165ac4beebcaf640859\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (11:49)\u003C/span\u003E: Maritime New Zealand have an incredibly strong reputation with the sector, in terms of being the regulator in this space, having recently taken on some of the WorkSafe responsibilities as well. That\u2019s actually been really well received by the sector. I think they appreciate having an agency that deeply understands the ins and outs of seafaring and takes a proactive, education-first approach to regulation. We are a country that depends very strongly on its maritime sector and on the health and welfare of our seafarers, particularly those who base themselves in and around Timaru at PrimePort, one of the best ports in the country, albeit that we have excellent ports around New Zealand, including those on our east and west coasts. I\u2019ve got very high confidence that Maritime New Zealand can deliver the statutory obligations that they are required to deliver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u00227baea41770131151eb6234aaf202dbe3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227baea41770131151eb6234aaf202dbe3\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (11:50)\u003C/span\u003E: One of the changes that has been made through the select committee process is around the maximum penalties. What, obviously, is important in any legislation is that, where there are provisions that allow for deterrence or for some form of sanction, they are appropriate. The specific changes that have been outlined in this particular bill, for example, if we\u2019re looking at clause 72A\u2014this is around \u201CInfringement offences relating to navigation bylaws\u201D, which replaces \u201C \u2018$1,000\u2019 with \u2018$3,000 for an individual or $12,000 in any other case\u2019.\u201D That is what we would consider an appropriate ratcheting-up of those infringement levels. New Zealand, as we know, can make its own sovereign laws in this country, but if we are looking to be a key player and to be pulling our weight as an international participant in the maritime space, my question is: how do those sorts of infringement levels compare with other parts of the world to ensure that we are consistent on the international stage?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u002287a94c92e0a04a817999dfed78a08b00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287a94c92e0a04a817999dfed78a08b00\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (11:51)\u003C/span\u003E: I think you run into difficulties sometimes where you are looking at infringement offences and penalties and drawing on comparisons to other parts of the world, because, of course, not everyone in the world operates in the same regulatory and trust environments. The penalties needed to deter poor behaviour in New Zealand might be different to the penalties needed to deter behaviour elsewhere. I think, in general, the changes that this bill makes in terms of increasing those infringement fees, both to keep up with general inflation over time and to actually send a strong message that we take our maritime by-laws seriously are good ones. I think it\u2019s also worth noting that the committee has also recommended to clarify that body corporate infringement fees, which are actually higher to those applying to individuals, can apply to breaches of navigation by-laws. Of course, that provides the ability for those infringements and fees to be applied to companies, essentially, or organisations and not just individuals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u00226bf9d43361bb987c3486dfbc3acaee25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226bf9d43361bb987c3486dfbc3acaee25\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (11:52)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I thank the Associate Minister of Transport for that because I think the proportionality aspect between individuals and bodies corporate is an important distinction and an important consideration. In question to the Minister: there are a number of changes that relate to clause 81\u2014I\u2019m going to come back to clause 80, which is about the powers that are given over to the Director of Maritime New Zealand in a moment\u2014but there are a range of infringements or unsavoury acts that might be taken, whether by the bodies corporate or individuals, and so the ratcheting-up of those levels as such are quite significant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFor example, let\u2019s just pick clause 82. This is \u201CSection 65 amended (Dangerous activity involving ships or maritime products)\u201D. The sorts of thresholds that are going to be changed are replacing $10,000 with $50,000 and, in addition to that, replacing $100,000 with $1.5 million. These are significant changes. The Minister has talked about that difference between individuals and bodies corporate, but it would be interesting to hear from him whether he thinks that the differentials or the thresholds that have been identified there\u2014I\u2019m talking about clauses 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, and 86\u2014are satisfactory. I won\u2019t go through the actual offences unless the Minister would like me to go through that. No. He\u2019s nodding his head, so I won\u2019t. I don\u2019t think the Chair wants me to either. You get the drift. It would be helpful to understand the level of comfort around there. Those are significant increases in thresholds that have been promoted there as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOne of the interesting aspects is around trying to serve as a deterrent, and I agree with the Minister that there needs to be some caution around looking to other jurisdictions, and I accept that. I guess the issue that I\u2019m trying to get to here is if we are serious about being an international player, because our track record certainly indicates that, in the maritime space, we have always been a world leader, and these changes that sort of align with the reforms of Maritime New Zealand certainly help with that as well. The protections that have been put in place for seafarers absolutely will help in terms of lifting how we\u2019re seen, but how comfortable is the Minister that, despite the fact that we\u2019re not going to delve into different jurisdictions and what they might have as their thresholds, actually these are an accurate and adequate reflection of us being taken seriously on the international stage when it comes to maritime responsibilities, considerations, and deterrents that may be utilised from time to time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u00222ec4ec332d84daa78135d70dec1f8ef3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ec4ec332d84daa78135d70dec1f8ef3\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (11:55)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Very confident to highly\u2014somewhere in that range. The penalties are set using the ministry\u2019s effective transport financial penalties policy framework and tool. Now, that\u2019s a framework which is intended to take a systematic approach to supporting the process for setting more consistent and fit for purpose financial penalties, which are the fees and fines imposed by a court for offences across the transport legislation. The ministry has a framework tool that\u2019s looked at what the existing penalties were. It\u2019s decided that they clearly weren\u2019t significant enough to act as an adequate deterrent\u2014and not only deterrent but a punishment for wrongdoing. We\u2019ve got to be clear about this. The best way to avoid being culpable of paying these fines is to not undertake the dangerous behaviour in the first instance. That\u2019s what we\u2019re trying to address here. We don\u2019t want to go into all the offences detail by detail, but they are generally safety related, right? They are offences against dangerous activity, unnecessary danger, and communicating false information, which affect safety. Those are all things that impact the health and wellbeing and welfare of our seafarers and also of our maritime space. I\u2019m very confident that the ministry has looked at the existing penalties, has used its framework tool, which I\u2019m sure would incorporate analysis of what equivalent jurisdictions use as well, and has come up with a right figure to put into the legislation to carry us forward into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI would close off on that by just reiterating what, I think, the member said at the outset, which is that a lot of what we\u2019re doing in the maritime space is to, I guess, meet some of our obligations to agreements that we\u2019ve committed to in the past. Of course, under our system of law, the only way for us to really meet those obligations is to incorporate them in domestic statute, so that\u2019s the process that we\u2019re undertaking now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u002209b176e4d979d879818272577746c763\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209b176e4d979d879818272577746c763\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (11:57)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I agree with the Associate Minister of Transport. We wholeheartedly support the efforts that have been taken to uphold and to signify to the rest of the world that we are serious about maritime matters, because they are important. Advancing that through domestic legislation is something that we do support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EMinister, I did sort of indicate that I was keen on looking at clause 80. This is around the powers of investigation of the Director of Maritime New Zealand. This, I think, is, on the face of it, a really sensible move to allow the director some suite of powers to investigate a few things when it comes again to safety. One of the, I guess, common themes throughout this bill is that it is about safety, whether it\u2019s in terms of road and rail\u2014well, we\u2019ll get to rail; we haven\u2019t got there yet\u2014or in terms of maritime. One of the things that we have had a look at and that this bill does introduce is this amendment that allows for the director to go about investigating anyone that holds what\u2019s defined as a \u201Cmaritime document\u201D. Again, it\u2019s kind of like a driver\u2019s licence. We sort of take from that that this is a document that permits a set of responsibilities for someone who\u2019s qualified, and, of course, qualification is left over to the sector to determine that, but also through regulation. In a circumstance where the director has what are reasonable grounds\u2014that is always a bit of a catch-all, although there is a fundamental baseline there\u2014to suspect that the holder has failed to comply with any of those requirements in section 17, it basically hands over to the director a set of powers to go and do some investigation. Well, the fact that this section has been introduced does kind of give rise to the fact that this is what is needed. There is, obviously, a bit of a gap here at the moment. But is the Minister comfort\u2014there\u2019s no gap there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa11f5c8a9b51a2103d237af33d091ea\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER\u003C/span\u003E: Some. It allows for electronic services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232f2b411f34f8f93f896192188cc3931\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: OK, there needs to be some clarity around that. But I guess, you know, is the Minister comfortable that the reasonable grounds threshold is the appropriate one? I know he has a legal background himself, so he\u2019ll be very familiar with this, but in terms of putting this into primary legislation, does he have any concerns\u2014I think it\u2019s important to have this power\u2014that the threshold is at the right level?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9dd9f77c1c89b09721fa0ef265c5add\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9dd9f77c1c89b09721fa0ef265c5add\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (12:00)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I think the member started by referring to a clause 80. So just for the avoidance of doubt, the summons power which is in clause 80, in new 58(3), is pre-existing; this change requires service to be provided electronically. So that\u2019s what clause 80 does. And then in reference to clause 79, which looks at amending 54A\u2014and apologies, there were five or six different bits of legislation that I had to pull up, so I\u2019m just looking through 54A. We\u2019re replacing existing 54A(1)(b)(i), which has the threshold of evidence \u201Cthere is belief\u201D; so 54A(1)(b)(i) currently says: \u201Cbelieves that the maritime document holder has failed to comply with any conditions of a maritime document;\u201D. The new (i) says: \u201Chas reasonable grounds to suspect that the maritime document holder has failed to comply with any of the requirements in section 17;\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ENow, my very limited legal experience and knowledge would lead me to conclude that the test for \u201Creasonable grounds to suspect\u201D is a lower threshold than \u201Cbelief\u201D. Belief has a slightly higher threshold because you\u2019d have to demonstrate actual belief or the reasonable grounds to believe it exists\u2014whatever the test behind it is; I can\u2019t quite recall where I\u2019m sitting in first- or second-year law at the moment. But by lowering that threshold to \u201Chas reasonable grounds to suspect\u201D just allows the director that additional ground to more easily undertake investigations, particularly in an environment or an area where perhaps the documents being held by some mariners or maritime entities aren\u2019t quite as readily available or consistent or up to date as what they might be in some other parts of our legal framework. So that\u2019s what that change in 79 does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u00226ee1270a79c973c207fcc37a40708a3e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ee1270a79c973c207fcc37a40708a3e\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (12:03)\u003C/span\u003E: Kia orana, Mr Chair. Thanks to the Associate Minister of Transport for that. It\u2019s an interesting analysis of the belief vis-\u00E0-vis the \u201Creasonable grounds\u201D. Does he think that there\u2019s anything that\u2019s needed in addition to that, or is it more around the ability for the director themselves to land at a particular space where they think that actually that \u201Creasonable grounds\u201D threshold has been met?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276d9d54e1267d6ccf7a6024a453d0746\u0022\u003EHon James Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, repeat the last bit, I was just reading the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022349e4bbbd46f5dc6456e16aa3ee14921\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Sure. Is he comfortable that, I guess, as worded that\u2019s all that\u2019s needed? Or is there a requirement to have any additional guidance for the director in exercising their mind as to whether or not that threshold has been met?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u00226763228a7752dfc6f5bb11e3d7098c2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226763228a7752dfc6f5bb11e3d7098c2d\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (12:03)\u003C/span\u003E: I think in statute that\u2019s all that\u2019s required. And I\u2019m sure that Maritime New Zealand, when executing these powers, will take the appropriate internal advice or legal advice as to what the appropriate steps would be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002201f738f244724e5b8da066dba7a6a526\u0022 data-id=\u00224d783378cd8f73bc88cb0e4f18f9d70d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002201f738f244724e5b8da066dba7a6a526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d783378cd8f73bc88cb0e4f18f9d70d\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour) (12:04)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Minister. Speaking of that\u2014and clause 80, which as you said requires electronic summons\u2014and then looking at the subsequent clauses and the changes made to them, how does that expansion of electronic service and that notification mechanism improve access to justice, I suppose, for seafarers or for operators in practice? What were the sort of considerations? I mean, I suppose it\u2019s a twofold question. The electronic summons in and of itself raises a new set of considerations, but it wouldn\u2019t have been done, I presume, without good reason\u2014and that would be to make the system more efficient somehow. Can you just provide some more details about how the ability to use the electronic summons, how that would improve the system? And were there any fish-hooks, were there any considerations during this process\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ab32b09663ea48b199aa59e4d88f77e4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022188118ddefd843e9c314810a3c18ad64\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsTerm\u0022 style=\u0022font-style: italic\u0022\u003ESinging\u003C/span\u003E] Were there any fish-hooks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002201f738f244724e5b8da066dba7a6a526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbe59defa0bbaec2abcaab8fa016bd2e\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that have kind of highlighted\u2014I\u2019m sorry, I\u2019m distracted by what sounds to be some sort of singing. Were there any fish-hooks or any considerations? We know that the electronic notification and other justice contexts have proven not to be as simple and straightforward as they might seem on the surface. So a little bit more information would be great.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3a9e9f09f56d062dfc3463e7498519e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3a9e9f09f56d062dfc3463e7498519e\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (12:05)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. It is, essentially, just a modernisation of the summons part of the statute in the sense that\u2014you know, there is an argument that if you don\u2019t explicitly allow for electronic summons, then any attempt to do so would be declared invalid and so would prevent the administration of justice, or in this case the investigation of the director. So it is, in essence, just a modernisation of the existing system, to bring it in line with other systems. The member\u2019s right to bring up these issues; anytime we try to digitise or make something electronic, the same issues tend to pop up over and over again. But we have, I think now, quite a long history of how electronics summons, electronic service works, particularly in New Zealand; particularly in a\u2014I was going to say a land-based context, but particularly I guess in a maritime context, perhaps the ability to do electronic summons or service would be even more important because you may need to provide that to a ship en route to, you know, between port A and port B, and physically providing that at the time may be quite difficult in order to access it. So it\u2019s, essentially, just a modernisation process, and I haven\u2019t had any issues drawn to my attention that would cause me any concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u0022b666ca83f8af6633820c621ef17e8246\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b666ca83f8af6633820c621ef17e8246\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (12:07)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I turn to clause 92(4). This is an interpretation amendment, and, often, interpretation clauses are very, very important; they can often be quite benign as well. But this one is seeking to ensure that what\u2019s captured there is the various declarations made around international conventions, protocols, or agreements that New Zealand as a country may enter into. So I\u2019m just curious to understand from the Associate Minister of Transport what\u2014because that will already be contained. I mean, the ability for New Zealand to be recognised as a party to different things that it agrees to, through the appropriate mechanisms, will already be captured. So I\u2019m just trying to understand: what is the Minister seeking to ensure that\u2019s clarified as a result of that particular subclause?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd8384416817fb15e8325d3225015828\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd8384416817fb15e8325d3225015828\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (12:08)\u003C/span\u003E: The intention of this one is to ensure that once a convention is declared by Order in Council under the Maritime Transport Act, subsequent amendments to the convention of which New Zealand is the party are automatically included without requiring further Orders in Council. So it\u2019s basically saying that where we sign up to one of these conventions\u2014which are quite specific, actually\u2014the conventions must relate to protecting the marine environment from pollution and we must already be a party to the convention. If there are amendments to the convention in future, which presumably we must agree with, they will be automatically included rather than have to go back through the Cabinet process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be7eccb6720701770633567597b64ca1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to Part 4 set out on Amendment Paper No. 574 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 4 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a51a9d13b7bc65be789ae1c864296a70\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bde0df2677d8af0cc518f508da4dba3a\u0022\u003EPart 5 Amendments to Railways Act 2005\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215af28a855e6732e144b16fa35bc5ee2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: We now come to Part 5. Part 5 is the debate on clauses 102 to 112, \u201CAmendments to Railways Act 2005\u201D. The question is that Part 5 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9fc208c96381c1b2bb1415e36984a61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9fc208c96381c1b2bb1415e36984a61\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (12:09)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Well, the committee comes to rail. What\u2019s been really interesting is members of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee have become acquainted with the Transport Accident Investigation Commission. What this part is seeking to do is to tidy up, and, I guess, clarify, some of those aspects around safety; a lot of the driving forces around safety and who takes care of what.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat naturally asks the question, well, how do we ensure that there\u2019s no duplication of things being done when it comes to actions taken under this particular Act? The register of licences, all of those sorts of things\u2014again, we\u2019re talking about the electronic address. This is a consistent theme that the Minister has kind of indicated, and I assume that his responses will carry over into this part and into subsequent parts, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhen we\u2019re talking about things like the preparation of a safety improvement plan that\u2019s cited under clause 107, the new section (1A), those are things that the experts turn their mind to. A lot of people often think they\u2019re experts, but, actually, this is a very discrete piece of work, and the work that those individuals do\u2014they\u2019re highly qualified and they have their particular focus, which is important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy first question to the Minister is, what safeguards or protections are in place to ensure that there is no duplication of things? I mean, if we\u2019re looking, in a parallel, at an NZTA context, all of that investigatory power generally happens under the New Zealand Police. Yes, there are subsets under that, but they\u2019re still under the New Zealand Police. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn terms of railway incidents or accidents that might be investigated or thereabouts, there is the provision for appointment of inspectors under new section 72X. How is the Government ensuring that there is no duplication of services, particularly when there are multiple agencies who might be involved in a particular incident? If we think about a rail incident, that might involve coastal elements; that could, foreseeably, involve Maritime New Zealand. If we have parts of the State highway network that are involved because it\u2019s near a bridge\u2014I don\u2019t know; these sorts of things\u2014how is there an ability to avoid duplication?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u0022279f1fa82584eea7878a5ebabb7d4c7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022279f1fa82584eea7878a5ebabb7d4c7c\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (12:12)\u003C/span\u003E: With the avoidance of giving some intrepid law professor inspiration to create some sort of nightmare-fact scenario where a train crosses a bridge and collides with a boat, causing an oil spill, which causes a heavy vehicle to slide across the road, and then you\u2019ve all of a sudden got a confluence of agencies investigating a number of accidents\u2014I think the core issue is probably well put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe have a number of different agencies that investigate and inspect a number of different parts of our transport system. When it comes to the Transport Accident Investigation Commission, their role in this process is not a fault-finding role. It is a role to investigate what happened, to investigate what went wrong, and to investigate what could be improved in the system. The Transport Accident Investigation Commission\u2014or TAIC, as I\u2019ll refer to them\u2014take an overall, kind of, stewardship role in putting aside the finding of fault and looking at exactly what happened and what could be improved to stop that happening again. Actually, I\u2019d encourage any member who\u2019s interested in this area to go and look at TAIC\u2019s reports that they do on accidents; they\u2019re incredibly well written, and they\u2019re incredibly straightforward. They are\u2014dare I say it\u2014in plain English, and they do a really good job of highlighting exactly what went wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere are also other agencies whose role it is to investigate accidents and to perhaps find fault, and to perhaps look at whether or not further enforcement action needs to take place. There is always going to be a sense of crossover in those spaces, because some of those agencies will be asking for the same kinds of information from the same kinds of people. In the case of TAIC, there is some incredibly good work being undertaken with the use of artificial intelligence to help streamline that process. Whether that is looking through decades of precious reports to find similar fact scenarios and to provide some insight into the outcomes for those, it\u2019s helping to produce reports that are obviously always finalised by a human eye. Some of the work that TAIC\u2019s doing in that space is to really rapidly reduce the amount of time it takes to undertake an investigation and to do a report, which gives them capacity and scope to do more investigations and more reports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat that leads me to is the question the member raised: what guarantees can we give that there won\u2019t be duplication in these processes? Well, the best we can do is try to define clearly what the roles of each of those agencies are and, when there is overlap in the information-gathering process, perhaps encourage them to work together as much as possible to reduce the impact on, sometimes, an individual who is the victim of an accident or involved in an accident having to be interviewed by three different agencies. Being able to use that information and share that information across agencies would be a good thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn this case, the member referred specifically to clause 107, the rail investigation powers. I\u2019ll just clarify, for the avoidance of doubt, that in this particular clause, the change required is that you are already able to provide a safety improvement plan. This is just clarifying that issuing an improvement notice under clause 110, which is a new section, won\u2019t prevent the ability to provide or to require a participant to prepare a safety improvement plan. The suite of changes here is to essentially give rail investigation the same kinds of powers that we have in land transport in order to issue non-disturbance orders, to preserve a scene, and to provide information. It\u2019s just so that when we are undertaking investigations into rail incidents\u2014which, sadly, there are far too many of in our country\u2014we can do so with assurances that we\u2019re going to have the best available fact situation to determine a result. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u00225a561206e9ca85069f4292510c55c09f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a561206e9ca85069f4292510c55c09f\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (12:16)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair, and I thank the Minister. That scenario he painted of rail, car, ferry, bridge\u2014well, there\u2019s no possibility of that happening, because this is a Government that cancelled the rail-enabled ferries. That\u2019s not a predicament. Nicola Willis wanted to send that by text!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAnyhow, I do agree with the Minister on one thing, and that is the Transport Accident Investigation Commission. They do some fantastic work, and one of the things that the Minister will be aware of is, in the Transport and Infrastructure Committee\u2019s report back to the House on another matter\u2014and this just touches on this\u2014there is some concern about what happens with the recommendations that they actually do present. At the moment, they kind of get laid on the table and there\u2019s no momentum behind it. So I\u2019m pleased to hear the Minister indicate the value of that commission, and we certainly agree that there needs to be some weight around that so that when they\u2019re doing things like this\u2014investigations that they will undertake under this particular bill\u2014the possibility of future repeats is lessened as a result of something actually happening with the reports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to ask the Minister about these new powers\u2014because they are new powers around entry and opportunity to inspect and all of those sorts of things. There are homes that are marae all around the country. How can there be some certainty or guarantee that homes and marae\u2014you balance that with the rights and opportunities to get the information that\u2019s needed. We come across this from time to time, where the search and surveillance requirements\u2014and I note that this is a bill that does actually amend parts of the Search and Surveillance Act 2012, as well. How are those new powers balanced against the private property rights of homes or, indeed, communal rights of marae? Because, freakishly, if we have a look at the number of incidents that happen around the country, they are very close to those sorts of places and locales. How are these new powers, which are important, balanced against the rights of folk going about their daily business?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u002257ff7306bfd7fc51306561aa7bf3e326\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257ff7306bfd7fc51306561aa7bf3e326\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (12:18)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, this is new section 72D of new Part 2A, inserted by clause 110. I know the Transport and Infrastructure Committee made some recommendations for changes to make it crystal clear that the powers to enter vehicles, buildings, or places only apply to those owned by rail personnel or used in rail activities, and to limit the scope of the power. For the avoidance of doubt, those powers are to be used only for the purpose of carrying out an investigation of a rail accident or incident.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBuilt into the statute are some guardrails and some limits as to the kinds of premises that can be searched under the statute. There are also the wider protections provided in the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act in terms of, when you interpret those provisions, you\u2019re supposed to interpret them in a rights-consistent way. Regardless of what people think about how the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act should or shouldn\u2019t be applied, the protection against unreasonable search and surveillance is contained within that piece of legislation, as well, which would also apply here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn terms of specific application to places like marae or communally owned or inhabited properties, you\u2019d have to, again, take it on a case by case basis and apply the powers that are available under the law to those places. The underlying fact remains that the powers are serious powers, and they are to be used to investigate very serious rail accidents with the idea of finding fault or culpability and preventing these things from happening in the first instance, or ever again, and, also, providing accountability for those who may have caused those accidents. So there is an important purpose and reason for doing this. Those powers won\u2019t be used lightly and can\u2019t be used lightly under the statute, with the wider protections of search and surveillance, and also, even further than that, you\u2019ve got general common law protections around privacy and around unreasonable search, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think that those three things combined should give the member assurance that they\u2019re only to be used in specific circumstances. A wider commentary on whether or not they generally protect places like marae and other communally inhabited places would have to be looked at, depending on the fact scenario.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002201f738f244724e5b8da066dba7a6a526\u0022 data-id=\u0022bed99ae6a8111c1b48c46f5cf99cbd91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002201f738f244724e5b8da066dba7a6a526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bed99ae6a8111c1b48c46f5cf99cbd91\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour) (12:20)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank you, Minister Meager. I have a couple of quick questions that may at the offset sound like they\u2019re not connected, but they\u2019re certainly connected in my mind, so hear me out. When the Minister was providing that answer, it kind of struck me to ask whether this applies only to the network that\u2019s owned by KiwiRail. I was thinking about the smaller operators when we were talking earlier about the increasing penalties. Normally when that happens, there\u2019s an overview to make sure that the compliance burdens are proportionate to smaller operators, and in listening to the Minister just provide that answer, I suddenly thought that perhaps I\u2019m barking up the wrong tree in terms of assuming that there are smaller operators. I know that there\u2019s certainly Mainland Rail and a couple of things in the South Island, but that points me to the wider question: does this only apply to the network as owned by KiwiRail?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBut, more importantly, my question before I was distracted by that thought was this. With the additional exercise of these enhanced powers, so to speak, what sort of training and oversight mechanisms does the Minister envision or has the Minister had discussions about that will apply to enable inspectors to be able to do that enhanced work more\u2014well, to be able to do that enhanced work, full stop. But will they be able to do so with the degree of skills and the level of expertise that will make the difference between having a piece of legislation on paper and having the implementation of it actually work\u2014so any information around that or the advice that the Minister has received in that direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn that vein also, whilst we talk about these changes as being sort of modernisation, technical changes, or a chance through an omnibus bill to improve a system, what sort of evidence shows that they will actually improve safety outcomes? That\u2019s the gist of all of these changes in this part, more so than just simply adding an additional layer of process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThank you. That was one weird question at the beginning that may have just been in my mind, and a specific question about those extra skills and whatever kind of resourcing or training needs to go into making that possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u002291eff30d8d15ac465e2cf3e150af8a84\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291eff30d8d15ac465e2cf3e150af8a84\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (12:23)\u003C/span\u003E: To address the weird question, no, it\u2019s not just KiwiRail. It\u2019s all rail participants and rail personnel, and so you may have those small spurs that do go into a bit of private land, which would be subject to these investigation powers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll just touch on the final point around private premises and marae that was raised before. I\u2019ll point members to section 72H, I think it was, or is it actually\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255f1d00b5fc7673cfc126c125f836e11\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The power of entry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022036d615f6732677e5f0d0c7d3bcf3aca\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, it\u2019s the power of entry. I\u2019ll find the clause as I am rifling through my notes, but, essentially, you will only be able to go into private premises or marae with the consent of the owner or a warrant. It\u2019s new section 72E in clause 110. You actually will need the consent or a warrant to do so, and so it\u2019s not just the application of these search and surveillance powers, but you\u2019ll actually have to get a warrant if you don\u2019t have consent to enter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThen, in and around the question around training and oversight, the Transport Agency already undertake these investigations for land transport purposes, for roading network purposes. There are training systems in place for their investigators, and it would just be an extension of that to, I guess, some members of the same team or maybe a particular team to investigate for rail, as well. There may be some situations about rail that would make it\u2014you know, you might have some specific different types of training, but the equivalent powers exist in other areas, and so it would just be an extension of that programme. In terms of analysis on whether or not this will improve safety, I understand there\u2019s some analysis in the regulatory impact statement, if the member is interested.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u0022e29379bf8bc1915efd8fed4dfc3ed86f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e29379bf8bc1915efd8fed4dfc3ed86f\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (12:25)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair, and thanks to the Associate Minister of Transport for that. Obviously, the warrant powers are important because that means that there is a rationalisation process that the issuing officer needs to turn their mind to before determining that there is justification to enter private property\u2014homes, marae, and the like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EJust one more question from me on this at the moment, which is in relation to new section 72F in clause 110. This is notice of entry, and this is about a circumstance where the inspector seeks to enter the place, the vehicle, or the building, and does so; needs to make some effort to locate the person who\u2019s in charge and is unable to do so; and, as a result of that, he or she is then required to leave some information behind. Now, there seems to be a very base level of information, which is the identity of the inspector, the electronic address or email for the inspector, the date and time of entry, and the reasons for entering. There\u2019s an additional one there to the electronic address, which is \u201Cand any other contact information the inspector wishes to provide;\u201D. I see that that is optional. It could be a telephone number, I guess, or it could be whatever, but is it that the email address is sufficient, and the additional context is there so that the inspector could think about what is warranted and what is not, given the circumstances of the entry? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b27d8609c612411686d517d0f9b09b28\u0022 data-id=\u00225628ad85f1aec1c19783808cd481aae8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d8609c612411686d517d0f9b09b28\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225628ad85f1aec1c19783808cd481aae8\u0022\u003EDAVID MacLEOD (National\u2014New Plymouth) (12:27)\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Chairperson. I seek leave for the committee to pause its consideration of this bill, move on to consider the Ng\u0101ti Hei Claims Settlement Bill, and then resume consideration of the Regulatory Systems (Transport) Amendment Bill once it has concluded its consideration of the Ng\u0101ti Hei Claims Settlement Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b47c321a46567c16f8c7a0a42d0f49b5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that motion? Leave is granted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002208930ff6270f78818394ee8719c1679e\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti Hei Claims Settlement Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c63c2cc4eb8ae8216213d317f526649b\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u002287f038e3408519c6bf9c3d2071a773c6\u0022\u003EPart 1 Preliminary matters, historical account, acknowledgements and apology, and settlement of historical claims\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212f935de7639c752e1e3ce8e7dfeb684\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now turn to the Ng\u0101ti Hei Claims Settlement Bill. We begin with the debate on Part 1. This is the debate on clauses 3 to 21, \u201CPreliminary matters, historical account, acknowledgements and apology, and settlement of historical claims\u201D. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Amendment Paper 577 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022903b783f19ee3e337b588c4eafd93acd\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e1beded76a88f669036179af62bc3e9c\u0022\u003EPart 2 Cultural redress, and Schedules 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022349cef62bf1910fa4b5cc3cb96bf7c23\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 22 to 136\u2014\u201CCultural redress\u201D\u2014and Schedules 1 to 3. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 2 set out on Amendment Paper 577 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a505761c028f4af88177ccbf9072804a\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dd41bc9ced61464de8687bc94d7837ff\u0022\u003EPart 3 Commercial redress\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d959f6616ac5c849b47fd6bb8e4a31d6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 3. Part 3 is the debate on clauses 137 to 160, \u201CCommercial redress\u201D. The question is that Part 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 3 set out on Amendment Paper 577 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e0c50187ddeb6019554a364b4a5ff309\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a0a6b8f1c2a7f8cfff94289cab6b7bcd\u0022\u003EPart 4 Amendments to other legislation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1f7a85b7b96b05b55a48684999e9d4a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 4. This is the debate on clauses 161 to 163, the amendments to other legislation. The question is that Part 4 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to Part 4 set out on Amendment Paper 577 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 4 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab6a3b523ff19e2805c5222cf12353b4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Schedule 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to Schedule 1 set out on Amendment Paper 577 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022258ad38be57c167c4303509f8f384e95\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Schedule 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b458b9754e48909fc3d1e2abac291f4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Schedule 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ESchedule 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221e1c01d15d179b086dd4fc509e23af3a\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u0022666f9845269de36a3d2fbe443d851793\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022720ffedb8dbf1052cb3bdb7f35c291d9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to our final debate, clauses 1 and 2. This is the debate on clauses 1 and 2, \u201CTitle\u201D and \u201CCommencement\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u00226d95d5f573325d060b75f33dc70dbf2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d95d5f573325d060b75f33dc70dbf2f\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa) (12:31)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. A very brief call on the title of this bill, this being the only opportunity we have to give a general call and to ask the Minister more generally about the policy of this bill. The people who are watching may be confused about why we can move so fast on a bill like this, but it is a reason to celebrate and a reason to commemorate every passage of every Treaty bill. This one is significant. Ng\u0101ti Hei are part of the overlapping and collective settlements that exist within their rohe, but they are their own significant part of it, with interests extending around the Coromandel area and Hot Water Beach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just invite the Minister to reflect on the significance of this bill and the importance of what we have just been through, which is a committee of the whole House stage moving quickly because everyone in the House agrees with it. I will not get an opportunity to take a call at the third reading, and so can I also congratulate those people who have worked tirelessly to come to not only those collective settlements for the rohe in the Marut\u016B\u0101hu claims settlement, but also for this iwi in its own right to stand on its own two feet and to have a settlement which will be significant, not only to the generations now who get to witness the passage of this bill but for all of their uri in the future. It is an important part of the country, a beautiful part of the country, they are its kaitiaki, and may we wish them the best for the passage of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u00229529ae4f8d74e894f4080630a1ea1e77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229529ae4f8d74e894f4080630a1ea1e77\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations) (12:33)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, thank you, Mr Chair. Obviously, it is a very exciting prospect that this stage that we\u2019re at is a sort of a technical phase. We\u2019ve had the first reading some years ago, and we\u2019re looking forward to the final, third reading of this settlement bill for Ng\u0101ti Hei coming soon. As is mentioned, Ng\u0101ti Hei are an iwi that trace their origins to Kupe and Te Arawa waka on the eastern seaboard of the Coromandel, between Onemana and Whangapoua and out into the islands. This is a settlement that is part of the broader Hauraki claims. There are about 12 different settlements across the Hauraki that we\u2019re working our way through, so this is a very exciting prospect that we\u2019ll be looking to conclude in the next few weeks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224a4488705e98ca6c8002af7aceb9fefe\u0022\u003ERegulatory Systems (Transport) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b4e55475d82832bc94c703853ef5a795\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u00225552b469039733abfaba39d0739d6bcd\u0022\u003EPart 5 Amendments to Railways Act 2005\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1cd4305462c7d08773d246ffec9946d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to Part 5 set out on Amendment Paper 574 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 5 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b44fdb7b41d24cdd608c82ca141ef26f\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u0022af07d76bbf20e74df5a2e08de8894ca3\u0022\u003EPart 6 Amendments to Road User Charges Act 2012\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224caa551980add3794f69038ab4faec9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 6. This is the debate on clauses 113 to 115, \u201CAmendments to Road User Charges Act 2012\u201D. The question is that Part 6 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022 data-id=\u0022475447d7e4211993392a132b607796c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022475447d7e4211993392a132b607796c8\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central) (12:35)\u003C/span\u003E: Very excited to make a contribution on this important bill. Just in terms of Part 6, in clause 115, which amends Schedule 2, there\u2019s obviously a transition going on between post and other methods of informing citizens of what\u2019s going on in their relationship with Government. I guess there are two aspects to my question. One is this adoption of the term, in clause 1(4), \u201C\u2026 notice is sent (a) by post is \u2026 treated as having been given at the time the notice would have been delivered in the ordinary course of the post:\u201D. That suggests that there is an ordinary course of the post, but the fact of the matter is that letters put in our dear old New Zealand Post post-boxes now can sometimes arrive in three days, sometimes 10, and sometimes, sadly, not at all. I was just interested to know why the decision wasn\u2019t made to give a clear date, because that is actually a sliding scale. The worse New Zealand Post gets, the longer \u201Cordinary course\u201D will be. We\u2019ve seen New Zealand Post closures around the country recently. They have over time been rolling back deliveries to households and extending out what \u201Cordinary course\u201D is. It used to be pretty much next day in the same city, and now I think it\u2019s something like five days. So I\u2019m interested to know what \u201Cordinary course of the post\u201D actually means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe other thing, again, in terms of providing information or giving notices\u2014whatever you want to call it\u2014to citizens; I see that electronic notification is there. But it seems to be\u2014and I\u2019m just going to invite the Minister to kind of explain exactly what this is, because it\u2019s not just by an email, for example, saying, \u201CYour road user charges have been updated or have expired.\u201D or whatever the case might be, but it\u2019s by access to some sort of portal, it appears. This is in clause 115, Schedule 2, new clause (1)(ca): \u201Csending an electronic notification to the person that states where they can access the notice electronically\u201D, which seems to be an odd leap. Why not just tell them that this is notifying you of the fact, rather than saying, \u201CClick on this link to go to this portal to enter your details to get the information that I could have given you anyway.\u201D? It does seem that you can\u2019t actually just email them, like sending them a letter. You\u2019ve now got to\u2014well, at least if you\u2019re using subclause (ca), by having this portal. Why have we got this system of clicking on a link through, and what exactly is meant by it? Is this something we\u2019re moving to immediately, or is this just kind of a belts and braces in case we want to go down that road? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3d862fbd638f42658a84c36e17afc65\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3d862fbd638f42658a84c36e17afc65\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (12:39)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Just to address the member\u2019s first point: the wording in clause 115, amended Schedule 2, subclause (4)(a), is a repeat of the wording in the existing subclause (4) of Schedule 2. All the amendments do is repeat that wording in and around \u201Cordinary course of the post\u201D and then add on the electronic service provisions. So the existing requirements for \u201Cordinary course of the post\u201D are already in the legislation. It will, of course, depend on where you live, rural addresses, etc., so it\u2019s not appropriate to put a specific number of days in the Schedule.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn terms of the second point around whether is this belts and braces, I would think that, yeah, it is belts and braces. I can imagine a world where your electronic notice doesn\u2019t come by way of email with a PDF attached, but it could come by way of a notification through a New Zealand Transport Agency app or some sort of application where you get a notification that \u201CHere\u2019s your receipt for your road-user charges bill that you\u2019ve just paid online.\u201D, and it can be accessed in your wallet, or here or there. I think that just provides a couple of options for electronic delivery to be undertaken. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think at some course, whether that\u2019s in the near future or distant future, all of these issues around electronic service\u2014and I know there is guidance and there is legislation existing for electronic service\u2014will have to be probably updated across the board to take account of new ways of delivering notifications and services and updates. For this one, the thrust behind it is just to make it easier for people to receive notifications that, say, their road-user charges haven\u2019t been paid, combined with the ability to no longer have to put that little sticker\u2014it\u2019s not even a sticker; it doesn\u2019t have any stick on it, but it\u2019s just a bit of paper\u2014in the front of your vehicle, and to move to a more modern system. I would agree with the idea that it\u2019s a bit of belts and braces and a bit of futureproofing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022 data-id=\u0022a82856af9a480ef1ab38a9b6cb51e707\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a82856af9a480ef1ab38a9b6cb51e707\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central) (12:41)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Just one final question in terms of notifications, and I\u2019m now looking at clause 115(4)(b). It\u2019s always a tricky one when you\u2019re using an electronic communication and you press send and the bundle of information passes through a series of systems, because once it gets out of, say, New Zealand Transport Agency\u2019s (NZTA\u2019s) system, it will then go into an internet service provider\u2019s system, and whilst these systems are extremely reliable, they\u2019re not perfect. There are instances where it gets into an internet service provider system and then it just disappears, or some error occurs and it never gets further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhy in this legislation and in this clause has the Minister decided to have a rule which says that the thing is delivered when it leaves NZTA, rather than when it arrives at the recipient\u2019s system? If you think of it in the New Zealand Post example, it\u2019s deemed to be delivered as soon as it goes in the post box, even if the letter is lost and never arrives at the address, because, in fact, that person won\u2019t be notified. But this seems to say, \u201CYou are notified. You\u2019re deemed notified as soon as we push send on our computer.\u201D, even though it never arrives in your in-box, or other app or whatever it might be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI just would be interested in the Minister\u2019s comments on that. I see that there\u2019s some advice coming his way, and so that would be useful to understand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u0022afac1b63ba8f6f8d5f3929fd7a4b21f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022afac1b63ba8f6f8d5f3929fd7a4b21f9\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (12:43)\u003C/span\u003E: I think that the intention is to be analogous to physical mail in that the New Zealand Transport Agency doesn\u2019t confirm that the letter is received by the individual, because it\u2019s not practical to do so. It deems it as being received\u2014as the member pointed out before\u2014at the time at which it would have been delivered in the ordinary course of mail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EHaving been on the receiving end of a registration notice which should have been received by my person and it wasn\u2019t received by one way or the other, and then the implications of failing to put that little bit of paper on my front windscreen were felt first hand, I\u2019ve got lived experience of what happens when you don\u2019t receive the particular bit of paper in time. But I can say to all of those out there who are worried, enforcement agencies are very sympathetic in explaining the reasons behind failure to display tiny bits of paper in the front windscreen of your car. If you explained the reasons behind that about the difficulty in receiving said bit of paper, they are generally more than happy to waive the particular infringement notice, although I suspect if it became a repeated pattern, they may not be so sympathetic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b7cff05e64f346e68983b2fdbfba3ad8\u0022 data-id=\u0022654d04a8bcc52107b82be2c67279eb8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b7cff05e64f346e68983b2fdbfba3ad8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022654d04a8bcc52107b82be2c67279eb8c\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote) (12:44)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat debate on this question now close\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5; Ferris.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5ade88d31b9fed17ecf1c45fede2105\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to Part 6 set out on Amendment Paper 574 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 6 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f7dcc5711be52c6a1071aca098e28846\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u00223482538b3fba9b630ecce43cb1c59a3f\u0022\u003EPart 7 Miscellaneous amendments and related amendments to other legislation, and Schedules 1 to 4\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd5330a38ccae1b14ad073efee373d8d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: We now come to Part 7. This is the debate on clauses 116 to 227\u2014\u201CMiscellaneous amendments and related amendments to other legislation\u201D\u2014and Schedules 1 to 4. The question is that Part 7 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u00225080303ae99109741853c3e376300340\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225080303ae99109741853c3e376300340\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (12:46)\u003C/span\u003E: Kia orana, Mr Chair. These are sort of the catch-all provisions in this particular part where there are quite a few of them. A number of them relate to airports, and so this is the first time that aviation\u2014I\u2019m sure the Minister will approve\u2014has sort of made an entry into this Regulatory Systems (Transport) Amendment Bill, given his interest in the area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhen we\u2019re looking at the provisions that relate to the various airports that are identified there, the first question for the Minister is just the rationale around the policy change. I know it\u2019s meant to be to provide some consistency in terms of operation, and also actually tweaking some, as I understand it, some sort of oversights when the previous legislation was making its way through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow that naturally bodes the question to the Minister around how we can make sure that this can be futureproofed to ensure that these sorts of things don\u2019t have to wait until a regulatory standards bill makes its way through the Parliament. I guess that when it comes to the various airports, they might be quite discrete in that particular sense, but in relation to clause 120, which leads to the new Schedule 1 for Auckland Airport, we are talking about a number of airports that are strategically of significant importance to the transportation system within this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy first question is on that policy rationale for aligning the airport companies\u2019 provisions with what was at the time a sense of older frameworks. It is going to be retrospective in terms of the change there to section 4(7) of the Regulatory Systems (Transport) Amendment Act, which is being amended by Schedule 1, but what was the operational or legal risk if these changes were not going to be validated, because effectively that\u2019s what it\u2019s doing. It\u2019s retrospectively validating what was an earlier course of action to allow the functionality of the airport\u2014well, the two airports: Auckland, under Schedule 1, and Wellington under Schedule 2. I mean, we\u2019re talking about the period from which it\u2019s come into force, which will be 5 April of last year, and so it was well over 12 months ago. That\u2019s the first question for the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u0022346a5a8747b2fa98195487eb56cc1f88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022346a5a8747b2fa98195487eb56cc1f88\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (12:48)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I think it\u2019s worth just explaining some of the background to this fix. Clause 119\u2014which is the one the member is referring to\u2014corrects a numbering error which unintentionally disapplied sections of the Civil Aviation Act 2023 when it was brought into force in, I assume, 2023. Those sections contained a power that the airports require in order to set charges for aerodrome activities, along with other powers that were never intended to be excluded. I\u2019m advised that that error won\u2019t have any practical effect until such time as, for example, Auckland Airport wishes to deal with land or is registered as an airport operator, and so it hasn\u2019t had any impact to date. However, the ability to tidy that, I\u2019m sure, unintentional error\u2014which happens from time to time when legislation is passed\u2014can be remedied through this bill, and the reason for applying it retrospectively is just to make sure that that error is, effectively, corrected from the date on which it was introduced by the Civil Aviation Act 2023, which was 5 April 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u0022c98d0642a0060b26c131331d4ddaca76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c98d0642a0060b26c131331d4ddaca76\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (12:49)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the Associate Minister of Transport for that clarity. A number of airports around the country have interests that are effectively owned by the local authority and councils around the country. That is quite a common approach for airport companies, certainly in New Zealand. Given the changes to both Schedule 1 and Schedule 2\u2014well, actually, they are both changes to Schedule 1, but they appear as Schedule 1 and Schedule 2, which kind of does beg the question: why could you not just put both of them into one schedule? But that was not the initial question I was seeking to ask the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s actually around the level of consultation that was taken, particularly with local authorities, in leading to this point or getting to this particular change. Many of them, as we know, are shareholding or controlling authorities, and so it is important to understand what that is before I move on to Schedule 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u0022b113630a7e44a60311c1be41a6d7ae82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b113630a7e44a60311c1be41a6d7ae82\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (12:50)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I think you\u2019d have to direct that question to the drafting wizards who know more about legislative design in this case than I do, but I\u2019m sure there was a very good rationale as to why we needed to have a new Schedule 1 as well as updating Schedule 2 to reflect the insertion of Schedule 1. I\u2019m sure there will be some distinction about having to have separate subject matters in different schedules that smarter people than I can explain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca2fc8a2011af2d04e884a6bdd55335e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca2fc8a2011af2d04e884a6bdd55335e\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (12:51)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I\u2019ll move on to Schedule 3. This is back in the maritime space, and this, again, relates to the provision of international conventions and obligations or treaties that New Zealand as a country does kind of sign up to. As I\u2019ve said previously, Minister, we certainly support those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s important that New Zealand is not just pulling its weight but is seen to be compliant and consistent in terms of our international obligations. When the Parliament seeks to insert a provision that basically says that moving forward, if there are any changes to conventions that New Zealand as a country is a party to, we\u2019ll basically just insert them. This is the mechanism to insert that opportunity. There is, I guess, a practical question around the ability of the Parliament to scrutinise that opportunity. So my first question to the Minister is: how does the proposed new schedule as outlined in Schedule 3 in the bill aid or support the ability for parliamentary scrutiny when various conventions are being considered and adhered to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u0022c80e343a1fe47b65491ee631f37b17a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c80e343a1fe47b65491ee631f37b17a8\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (12:52)\u003C/span\u003E: The intention behind this Schedule 3 is, as the member pointed out, to make it a more streamlined process for conventions that New Zealand is (a) party to or (b) has become a party to the amendment or revision before, on, or after the amendment Act came into force. Essentially, it\u2019s to allow for a smoother transition of amendments to conventions that New Zealand is already a party to and has already agreed to implement in its statute book, and presumably has also agreed to amend, as a party, to that convention to be incorporated automatically.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, there will be processes by which the Parliament can scrutinise that. I\u2019m sure the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee could open a briefing on a particular amendment to a convention to have a look at what the amendment did. I will take some advice from maybe members of the Regulations Review Committee as to whether or not such incorporation, because it\u2019s done under the original\u2014my understanding would be the original convention. There was a previous debate we had in a previous part around this very provision where it was implemented by Order in Council and so rather than having to go back through the Order in Council process again, you could do it automatically. So I\u2019d have to take some advice from the likes of the Regulations Review Committee as to whether or not that could be scrutinised through their process and whether or not that could be a disallowable instrument\u2014I think that might be the term, but I\u2019d have to get some more clarification on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOf course, Parliament is the master of its own destiny, and if it so decided that it didn\u2019t like that particular convention being implemented as part of its domestic law, then it could itself choose to legislate against that particular provision from being implemented. I\u2019m not sure whether that\u2019s best international practice, but Parliament ultimately retains that sovereign power to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 7 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225875bc7a4779dbd32e5d7d7991fe07b7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I will put the questions to New Schedule 1AA and Schedules 1 to 4 together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ENew Schedule 1AA and Schedules 1 to 4 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u0022e915789f76bdf2a589955263640f8b5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e915789f76bdf2a589955263640f8b5e\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Associate Minister of Transport) (12:55)\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I seek leave for the questions around clauses 1 and 2 to be put immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227532f0e563a3ae59f8202a0397b1a7a8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Apologies to the Minister. The time for reporting back is set by Standing Orders and not by the House. The time has come for me to report progress to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EProgress to be reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225d08740498d35af575efa3777108e643\u0022\u003ELocal Government (Auckland Council) (Transport Governance) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225d08740498d35af575efa3777108e643\u0022\u003EAnti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225d08740498d35af575efa3777108e643\u0022\u003EAnti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism (Supervisor, Levy, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225d08740498d35af575efa3777108e643\u0022\u003ERegulatory Systems (Transport) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225d08740498d35af575efa3777108e643\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti Hei Claims Settlement Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225d08740498d35af575efa3777108e643\u0022\u003EBuilding and Construction Sector (Self-certification by Plumbers and Drainlayers) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e4a385eeae6a0ce19025ac7b8af9bc39\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bdd712781f8af663fb813960c7026ac\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Local Government (Auckland Council) (Transport Governance) Amendment Bill and reports it with amendment. The committee has also considered the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Amendment Bill and reports it with amendment. The committee has also considered the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism (Supervisor, Levy, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill and reports it with amendment. The committee has also considered the Regulatory Systems (Transport) Amendment Bill and reports that it has made progress on the bill. The committee has also considered the Ng\u0101ti Hei Claims Settlement Bill and reports it with amendment. The committee has also considered the Building and Construction Sector (Self-certification by Plumbers and Drainlayers) Amendment Bill and reports that it has made no progress on the bill. I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the report be adopted\u003C/span\u003E. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d0daf1ca1aa7e3700515ea750c9187b\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The House stands adjourned until 2.00 p.m. today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 12.58 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202604289d9ae252be533c41d0001136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis early draft is automatically published - it is not yet complete and reviewed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"