"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002279346cd5a737c2909ff4c71d9baabb58\u0022\u003EThursday, 21 May 2026\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EThe Speaker\u003C/span\u003E took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022413b575e15019cb517b0870701e6b0a0\u0022\u003EStart of Sitting Day\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228e0f886446fa9bd517cd7c6d4d041527\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022 data-id=\u00223fb692ced1a0fd51483aec596f4a237a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223fb692ced1a0fd51483aec596f4a237a\u0022\u003EGREG O\u0027CONNOR (Assistant Speaker) (14:00)\u003C/span\u003E: Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King and pray for guidance in our deliberations that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom, justice, mercy, and humility for the welfare and the peace of New Zealand. Amen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002233617bf57243023148472db8ef453d31\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022840ecabf6418837d614292d108b3aef6\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u002280f6e7a758a3b30328817dd1cca2e897\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280f6e7a758a3b30328817dd1cca2e897\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Leader of the House) (14:00)\u003C/span\u003E: Next week, the House will consider further stages of the Education and Training (System Reform) Amendment Bill and the Building and Construction Sector (Self-certification by Plumbers and Drainlayers) Amendment Bill. The hours of Tuesday will be extended into Wednesday morning for Government business. On Thursday, the Minister of Finance will deliver the Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022 data-id=\u00222f01e43f32f628cd95aa88b167e0ab61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eb80a9df83044b88a00c174ea7a61925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f01e43f32f628cd95aa88b167e0ab61\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North) (14:01)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can the Leader of the House confirm that, in event that the House goes into post-Budget urgency, that urgency will be utilised for any Budget-related legislation and not for legislation currently listed on the Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u00221d39a4cf00d03cee82db515bdaa99b87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d39a4cf00d03cee82db515bdaa99b87\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Leader of the House) (14:01)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, of course, we will have quite a bit of legislation to get through related to the Budget, and we will be progressing a number of pieces of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002284f7f18e21f77364683aa3666e616758\u0022\u003EPresentation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228e5ccae0ecddaea0b7db0160025cc381\u0022\u003EPetitions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022 data-id=\u00220469392dda763d7e687ab89f6f5707ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220469392dda763d7e687ab89f6f5707ad\u0022\u003ESPEAKER (14:01)\u003C/span\u003E: A petition has been delivered to the Clerk for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b29814d6a15579a806e518d2efee164\u0022\u003ECLERK (14:01): \u003C/span\u003EPetition of Ponsonby Chambers requesting that the House repeal section 14(1A) of the Habeas Corpus Act and section 169(6) of the Senior Courts Act and instead require a court to determine applications to appeal decisions under section 166 of that Act within three working days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cd26b889460cc876f41f15b57ae071c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That petition stands referred to the Petitions Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222a1bc5e8b432da5c5a92de5e00e65782\u0022\u003EPapers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022 data-id=\u0022045823d36b9daf2990668394bd7644ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022045823d36b9daf2990668394bd7644ba\u0022\u003ESPEAKER (14:02)\u003C/span\u003E: I present the \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003ERegister of Pecuniary and Other Specified Interests of Members of Parliament: Summary of annual returns as at 31 January 2026\u003C/span\u003E. That paper is published under the authority of the House. No select committee reports have been delivered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c8406fce94a1d0adc4c803dfaf5f4404\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022770603c059787a282c315f4f74a473c0\u0022\u003ELocal Government (Management of Local Authorities) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022770603c059787a282c315f4f74a473c0\u0022\u003ECrown Minerals (Prohibition on Mining on Conservation Land) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022770603c059787a282c315f4f74a473c0\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Humanitarian Aid and Disaster Relief Medal Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022770603c059787a282c315f4f74a473c0\u0022\u003EOranga Tamariki (Suitable Accommodation on Leaving Care) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022770603c059787a282c315f4f74a473c0\u0022\u003EResidential Tenancies (Requiring Landlords to Provide Curtains) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022770603c059787a282c315f4f74a473c0\u0022\u003ECrimes (Impeding Major Bridges, Tunnels, and Roads) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002262ac29d2e9f849c1be4cfdf0eb0cbc49\u0022\u003EIntroduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022 data-id=\u00226678d51d1633cf65c01b14e9dbebf8a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226678d51d1633cf65c01b14e9dbebf8a7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER (14:02)\u003C/span\u003E: The Clerk has been informed of the introduction of six bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221927b5609aa223aa6df0b5d51cfc3e58\u0022\u003ECLERK (14:02): \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItemSL1\u0022\u003ELocal Government (Management of Local Authorities) Amendment Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItemSL1\u0022\u003ECrown Minerals (Prohibition on Mining on Conservation Land) Amendment Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItemSL1\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Humanitarian Aid and Disaster Relief Medal Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItemSL1\u0022\u003EOranga Tamariki (Suitable Accommodation on Leaving Care) Amendment Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItemSL1\u0022\u003EResidential Tenancies (Requiring Landlords to Provide Curtains) Amendment Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItemSL1\u0022\u003ECrimes (Impeding Major Bridges, Tunnels, and Roads) Amendment Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275a77d78bbfb8af61230b7a1b2fda40b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those bills are set down for first reading. The House comes to oral questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226bd84fdee2e15668182ba51d35f05a4f\u0022\u003EOral Questions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225c8e0746fe668309a6eafa15094d3435\u0022\u003EAuckland\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002215298e3f5e7c807398afd894544cfd8a\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022083a816abbb847f0a99aff178b1bbba2\u0022 data-id=\u002216dedada88e88af786a20ea57c2c9e2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022083a816abbb847f0a99aff178b1bbba2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216dedada88e88af786a20ea57c2c9e2d\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour) (14:03)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister for Auckland\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by all his statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022624b5e5ecd274e178a4554c1ae59f723\u0022 data-id=\u0022be75f2e329e5a1c582d4fc7719a7b34c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022624b5e5ecd274e178a4554c1ae59f723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be75f2e329e5a1c582d4fc7719a7b34c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister of Defence) (14:03)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister for Auckland\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022083a816abbb847f0a99aff178b1bbba2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbae961afa250de402e358b4de551f1e\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: What advice has he received or requested regarding Auckland\u2019s skyrocketing level of unemployment, now twice what it was three years ago, and the correlation between job losses in Auckland and homelessness?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022624b5e5ecd274e178a4554c1ae59f723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2751f66731c9ae995f7baadbae06afe\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, I receive a range of advice on a number of matters, including employment rates. I am advised that job creation through mechanisms such as the pipeline of projects through the regional city deal, fast-track projects with some 8,500 homes consented, will be valuable for construction and other industries. The question is about ways we can ensure the employment rate is as high as possible and the unemployment rate as low as possible, and we\u2019re confident that, as a Government, we\u2019re getting on and taking such measures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022083a816abbb847f0a99aff178b1bbba2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2f53fa47622966bd74f8d51cb73207c\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Has he received or requested any update on the number of homeless people in Auckland since the National Homelessness Data Project estimated that there were 940 homeless people in Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022624b5e5ecd274e178a4554c1ae59f723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022264c65eac57c81f1807e5e272dfea97b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, I receive a lot of advice, and it\u2019s difficult for me to be specific about exactly what advice I\u2019ve received in relation to the topic that the member has mentioned, but, certainly, the advice that I seek includes such issues facing Aucklanders as homelessness, and I would note that to approve the construction of 8,500 new homes under the Fast-track Approvals Act is going to be positive in terms of homelessness, as well as, as previously mentioned, in relation to employment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022083a816abbb847f0a99aff178b1bbba2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f594deca64d9e4fab0d86e25af08a32d\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the Prime Minister that \u201CThe problem is what do you do with the people. You can\u2019t just move them around and bounce them around the city.\u201D; if so, how can he promise Aucklanders that he\u2019s simply not shifting rough sleepers from Queen Street to the North Shore?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022624b5e5ecd274e178a4554c1ae59f723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfa04d5210e764afd8b8d8834a2f44b8\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister for Auckland, the mechanism popularly known as move-on orders\u2014and I do mean popular with Aucklanders\u2014is more properly within the remit of the Minister of Justice. But I would say for those who inhabit our city and region, we think that a fair balance must be struck. The rights of enjoyment and occupation must be struck for the benefit of all, including that for those who are moved on, there is a reasonable opportunity for them to be taken care of in a way that is appropriate, given their complex needs around housing but also mental health and addiction services. That\u2019s why we\u2019re taking such a holistic approach to that question as a Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022083a816abbb847f0a99aff178b1bbba2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022152aaec26d6e708b2414958c8d4409de\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government planning to build just 207 additional Housing First places in Auckland when there are over 940 homeless people in Auckland, and where does he expect them to go\u2014other than suburbs like Kingsland, Mt Eden, and Epsom\u2014when he kicks them out of the CBD?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022624b5e5ecd274e178a4554c1ae59f723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b7af1935415081d8829d9eaeeebde3c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister for Auckland, I reject the characterisation of the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223854ca9aaa2138cdc0aa19ea5661fdc0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, so do I. I think that the last part of the question could be better worded, but make a response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022624b5e5ecd274e178a4554c1ae59f723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf3cbf6363f73fb130c8692be6050ba2\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. On behalf of the Minister for Auckland, it seems to me important that we take a holistic approach to the question. As I\u2019ve indicated, as the Government, we\u2019re taking a number of different approaches which will be beneficial to the people of Auckland as a city and as a region and also for all of New Zealand. Of course, when Auckland succeeds, New Zealand will have the opportunity to do so too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022083a816abbb847f0a99aff178b1bbba2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d10b04a1e6ab2753d03752048276a24b\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Why should Aucklanders trust him over the Ministry of Justice, who said there was no evidence move-on orders would reduce crime; Police, who opposed criminalising rough sleeping; and Treasury, who said the costs would outweigh the benefits?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d2d66405bb9cd25fb1690b0a0e1b71e\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Time and time again, in questions, there is an assertion made that the Government is criminalising homelessness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262f45448e5a9059f556952b47961cb4d\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: You are! You are!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226046d005490821eea13b62e4b1473a7e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate that, and I was about to get\u2014sorry, I\u2019m not doing anything, the Hon Willie Jackson. Just reword the question. You can\u2019t make an assertion like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022083a816abbb847f0a99aff178b1bbba2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022beb6ace704397b896e978c2bf2d8ea82\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, Mr Speaker. Can you clarify for me what you think is out of order in the original question that I asked?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb516c92448b7746cb99272a4f6ae5a5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, not in the original question. There was nothing wrong with the original question. The supplementary that you just asked carried, effectively, an accusation that can\u2019t be substantiated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022083a816abbb847f0a99aff178b1bbba2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022618639cd6e552a2139fd7f332bd196ba\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I think you\u2019re referring to the part where I say \u201CPolice, who opposed criminalising rough sleeping\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d2aa2a16b2eb53459d57ebba4396e33\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022083a816abbb847f0a99aff178b1bbba2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f518d10f2afc58c3252284dbbb9b8887\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: I need you to explain which part is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d336497aa28f337c4fbcf04305609eb6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m not going to do that. I\u2019ve given you an opportunity to re-ask the question, or you can forfeit it\u2014one of the two.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022083a816abbb847f0a99aff178b1bbba2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7e7b1fc12db1ce3aff61738a20cd0df\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Why should Aucklanders support the move-on orders when the Ministry of Justice has said there is no evidence that move-on orders would reduce crime, Police have opposed criminalising rough sleeping, and Treasury have said that the costs would outweigh the benefits?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022624b5e5ecd274e178a4554c1ae59f723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225592729d66eec1b46117fb7d59ba65a1\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister for Auckland, the member is mistaken in the effect that she thinks that the move-on order regime will have. My colleague and friend the Minister of Justice will be happy to explain it to her, I\u2019m sure, but it\u2019s not in the nature of a move-on order to criminalise homelessness. It doesn\u2019t belong in the Crimes Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022083a816abbb847f0a99aff178b1bbba2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b26138a663933220a66770879226752\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019ll be fined or put in jail. That\u2019s criminalising.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022624b5e5ecd274e178a4554c1ae59f723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222449d99f47b33ab3612a47c5d241f491\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Now is not the time for a lecture to the member about the difference between criminal law and other, but I can only conclude she wasn\u2019t listening yesterday to the exchange across the House where I thought that was made tolerably clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022820d2ac43920617a87b758fe2d106038\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Is it true that the proposed move-on order legislation does not criminalise rough sleeping or homelessness or anything but it criminalises a refusal to follow a move-on order, and can he also remind the House that the Government, on behalf of New Zealanders, has many tools with which to help those who are in need, but relatively few\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220aa569175e61d56db8fb1b78b6c759f1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well, one aspect of that question could be answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022624b5e5ecd274e178a4554c1ae59f723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223b05d146c118430f2fa313a6de12885\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister for Auckland, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e49a6fc6909bd4a95468df07d7eece68\u0022\u003EPublic Service and Digitising Government\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022819f8feafb09f2c0b81a5c47141f2c93\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c562dc86e974914b8878595e580f138\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad2b49770f5e1ca9c47e13d581568cac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c562dc86e974914b8878595e580f138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad2b49770f5e1ca9c47e13d581568cac\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki) (14:10)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister for the Public Service and Digitising Government\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government undertaking significant public sector reform?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u0022b573ec311aff93aaaaf2c422c0193c6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b573ec311aff93aaaaf2c422c0193c6c\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for the Public Service and Digitising Government) (14:10)\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealanders expect a public sector that delivers efficient, productive, and cost-effective services. The reality is that the size and scale of the public sector grew unsustainably during the previous Government, so it is necessary to fundamentally rethink the way in which our Public Service operates. It will involve streamlining the number of agencies and entities, digitising both customer-facing and back-office systems, and returning the size of the public sector to a more sustainable level that does not exceed what most reasonable New Zealander would expect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c562dc86e974914b8878595e580f138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258fc65be0593e6e1221fd86d733af124\u0022\u003ECatherine Wedd\u003C/span\u003E: What outcomes does the Government expect to achieve by returning the size of the Public Service to a more sustainable level?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b12d1b2e6c00046471a0b1b32f698de\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: First, we expect to generate savings of $2.4 billion over the Budget period, which can be deployed to other areas, such as delivering more services in our health system, increasing educational resources for schools, building infrastructure, or strengthening our defence. Secondly, we would expect chief executives to propose new structures that are more efficient, define ways to share services more broadly, and, ultimately, this will improve the performance and productivity of the Public Service and deliver better value for money for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c562dc86e974914b8878595e580f138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c986c73e99436d81674e021ffd13634\u0022\u003ECatherine Wedd\u003C/span\u003E: What outcomes does the Government expect to achieve by the digitisation of the Public Service?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022beea7d787a6b82c576eb686ba40dc210\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: We expect a public sector that can be adaptable and can take advantage of the transformative power of new technologies available to deliver better services and improve productivity. This will make it easier for New Zealanders to interact with the Public Service and to reduce the overall cost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c562dc86e974914b8878595e580f138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fba3b7348548d39c08406eb635e18636\u0022\u003ECatherine Wedd\u003C/span\u003E: What are some of the opportunities for better public services that these transformations will allow?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022405afb4553a63e0d1ce60798df6242b1\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: When implemented well, digital technologies allow the Public Service in a wider sense to become more digitally enabled, efficiently structured, more cost-effective, and higher performing. Artificial intelligence (AI) is already being used across the public sector, and by the end of September 2026, an AI assistant for Government New Zealand will enable users to find answers quickly and easily across Government services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229d633a602c4a83dd2e0227e299643de9\u0022\u003ETransport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e8ba566d94234f15fa8a5ab06461ca1e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022 data-id=\u0022053b3dc5fab11dbe7df2368250333b79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022053b3dc5fab11dbe7df2368250333b79\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai) (14:12)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister of Transport\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm the last public estimate of the cost of the Warkworth to Te Hana Road is nearly $4\u00A0billion, and why is the most recent cost estimate of the project being withheld?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e59f2dc585d4c73aed76cb794221365c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e59f2dc585d4c73aed76cb794221365c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (14:13)\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm the last publicly available cost estimate was a range of $2.9 billion to $3.8 billion. Updated estimates are being refined through detailed design and procurement, which is standard practice for projects at this stage. I acknowledge the public interest in the cost estimates for the project. Taxpayers also expect the Government to achieve good value for money, which can at times require confidential negotiations. The procurement process for Warkworth to Te Hana is well under way. Financial close is expected mid-year, so it\u2019s not in the public interest to disclose updated costings at this time. The Ombudsman has also recently formed an opinion that the Government is entitled to withhold this information at this stage as we are in commercial negotiations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a0d8faecbef40cac6d02b55c8cd2f1f\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Is his Government refusing to disclose the estimated cost and benefit-cost ratio (BCR) for this project because as the Ombudsman said, \u201Cit might bring into question the Government\u2019s decision to proceed to procurement\u201D, and what does that say about the priority of this project?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b38bb906f664a110cc9275bea9367cf1\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: No, that\u2019s not the reason. The reason is just as I just said, which is that the Government is engaged in commercial negotiations, and I hope the member would want the taxpayer to receive good value for money. I\u2019m advised that releasing the BCR\u2014the benefit-cost ratio\u2014at this time infers the internal rate of return that is the perceived profitability or marginal value for the Crown, and this therefore weakens the Crown\u2019s commercial value for money as the private sector could see opportunities\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1dfdb0ea8cc87de0fff0c0e5390e70b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: I think AI wrote this sentence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238cd9b64d9038e94e581b0fdae424907\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, do you want us to waste money now, do you? Oh, actually, you do\u2014I forgot about that. You\u2019re from those guys. The private sector could see opportunities to increase their return at the expense of the Crown\u2019s value. It\u2019s pretty simple\u2014we\u2019re involved in a commercial negotiation. We want good value for money. You don\u2019t go into commercial negotiations saying how much you think something could cost because then, unsurprisingly, you will end up paying for what you have set aside and publicly disclosed how much it will cost. That seems like a fairly dumb idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280054224fcbbbee0f6269bc81e1d3898\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Is it the case that the private sector competes for building all the road projects that are put out for procurement in New Zealand and it is still in the public interest for overall cost and benefit-cost ratio to be in the public domain?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7b22513dfb70235e158b4f9c753b2b7\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, yes, we will release the benefit-cost ratio and the cost of the project once we have a finalised commercial contract. I\u2019m not going to ask the New Zealand Transport Agency to negotiate with a hand tied behind their back. I want them to get the best deal for the Crown. I think most Kiwis would want that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228006a4824c3fb2c75a7474ee19005247\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Has the fossil fuel crisis affected the cost of building highways, the demand for using roads, and the ability for future land transport funds to pay back a public-private partnership loan, and if so, how?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232a8646e111c227efef0a8d54ee973bc\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I don\u2019t know what the member means by fossil fuel crisis. That member\u2019s on the record saying that in 2008 we\u2019d run out of oil by 2015, and last time I looked, we\u2019ve got plenty of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dddcfdaa6ee2f202261d014fbb2671d\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, point of order. I mean, I think it was a fairly reasonable question, given we all know that there is a fuel crisis, the Government has a policy on it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a342948a0493226b4f46cd012199fdcd\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014no. No, hang on. Wait\u2014wait. Wait, sorry, what is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aced65f6cb04553e145e09bfbf5f02cb\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister didn\u2019t address the question at all. He made some weird assertion about me before I was an MP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1a82d9e60b69d37cf68ff55d481c871\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: With all due respect, he did. Do you have another supplementary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220957ee46ef12f0211c9af71275d23e30\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Do I get an additional supplementary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236640a1bff446b00399982b79507749f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, you don\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c72ec963936ffb875dab9dd7c8926383\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Why is he proceeding with an eye-wateringly expensive and low value for money public-private partnership at the same time when his Government is planning to lay off, potentially, 9,000 New Zealanders to balance its books?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267222825aa9337f7cbba87b3bfebcc1e\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Well, there were multiple assertions in that, so, I would expect that to be ruled out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222126a3b9cb22b9ad22df44f9927633ea\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yep, and the member, I\u2019m sure, herself, would be aware of Speaker\u2019s ruling 195/6, which makes it very clear you can\u2019t hang a question off an assertion. If you\u2019ve got a question, I\u2019ll be generous enough to let you ask it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275df00c46996bc62a48cef72e1e62b93\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government proceeding with an expensive public-private partnership road at the same time it has disclosed plans to, potentially, lay off 9,000 New Zealanders from the public service?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022573cdd0d0de6259a95c6b9d4316df2c2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That barely makes it\u2014barely makes it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ddcba679719b868a052639a29248a60\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Those are both in the public domain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288a0df2201cf34d3b224085139a45ed2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You can\u2019t\u2014[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E] Sorry. You can\u2019t assert that\u2019s something is outrageously expensive when the Minister\u2019s just explained that there\u2019s a process going on that will eventually lead to an ability to assess that, but not at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f3e2e721230f8f72d7f140e3ee555ed\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, just speaking to the point of order. The front page of the \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Herald\u003C/span\u003E today says it could well be the most expensive road ever built in New Zealand, so I don\u2019t think it\u2019s an outrageous claim.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e88a689219d8c1b8cc8f1535e84473a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There are lots of places that you could go to get an authoritative comment\u2014the front page of the \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Herald\u003C/span\u003E would not be one of them. The Minister may make a reply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec196ffba3513505a7812d32efa47663\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: The Warkworth to Te Hana road of national significance is an important nation-building project for the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229f071e5323b640f383726a46f39e8187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4b117789fb4271ade8b1cf04fc25702\u0022\u003EHon Phil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: A very expensive nation-building project.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db03120d562c22b58ca56f2556767fce\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well, so was the Auckland Light Rail project you wanted to spend $50 billion on. But anyway, it is going to be a game-changer for the North. It will improve safety and resilience and better connect Northland to the very important economic market of Auckland and, of course, the wider \u201Cgolden triangle\u201D\u2014or, as I call it, the \u201Cgolden quadrangle\u201D involving Northland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220399612b8670e1cc9136980bf98f7ca2\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb8f508fbdfb6acc69a1d8dd46ac281b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No one else is speaking while the member is asking their question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8ce7da5db9f4e41ef796b16f3dae8ea\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister really believe that the Warkworth to Te Hana expressway is the best use of multi-billions of public money, when that route will carry less than 0.1\u00A0percent of daily motor vehicle trips, and if so why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227d19573a8ba4d8283b17374978c8ea2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a986ba562e9550eaf458a38f716ce8b2\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022633e40a392c215becb1f0d253e4d0301\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You may have to declare an interest, Mr McCallum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fcf8e9609c4dc0a0914a47801cdd165\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Standing Orders says some things about your pecuniary interest, but\u2014it\u2019s not pecuniary, sorry, that\u2019s offensive. It\u2019s not just about vehicle movements; it\u2019s about safety and reliability and resilience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222467c2af465ba8726a186b8a8c7b0862\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: Then release the BCR.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022462af0724a40c9d0627ab1a1921cea4a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: BCRs take into account multiple benefits other than\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dab5b97d94331835ba0bda3242c17ad\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly, so release it\u2014release it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f845f13ffe266853c841e830123337dd\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: It will be released. I\u2019ve already\u2014you need to listen. Tamatha Paul needs to listen to the answer. We will be releasing the BCR. The business case for the Warkworth to Te Hana expressway is not just predicated on vehicle movements. It is also predicated on the very unreliable road that is there at the moment. It is predicated on safety; it\u2019s a very dangerous section of road at the moment. It is also predicated on reliability and the wider economic benefits that will come from better connecting Northland to the largest economic market in the country, which is the city of Auckland\u2014which is presumably why the last Government, in their outgoing draft Government policy statement, also included it as a road of national significance that should be built. The last time I looked, that member was a member of the outgoing Government that got booted out of office two years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022defff20a6b2e6f3dfe536c2e395c73d4\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Crown Relations: Te Arawhiti\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220923d8cec12fab9d74ae48b2d2b1aadc\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022 data-id=\u00228abc0c5c5b1b59670a3077defe8b0f28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228abc0c5c5b1b59670a3077defe8b0f28\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour) (14:21)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister for M\u0101ori Crown Relations: Te Arawhiti\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by the Government\u2019s track record regarding M\u0101ori-Crown relationships?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022 data-id=\u0022af50ce098df0cf3599b00e110b6fabde\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af50ce098df0cf3599b00e110b6fabde\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA (Minister for M\u0101ori Crown Relations: Te Arawhiti) (14:21)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. M\u0101ori-Crown relations will outlive everyone in this House, hence why I commend the progressive and stellar mahi of members such as Minister Goldsmith with Treaty settlements progress\u2014three last week from Hauraki and, of course, the first reading of Whanganui land settlement; Minister Stanford with some of her work around education, particularly supporting capital expenditure across various kura in this country; and Minister Jones, not only with the super-hot geothermal shot but also the tautoko that he provides to Parihaka, Ringat\u016B out at Wainui Road, R\u0101tana, and Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201ebed02f74ddd57b5fa1746fdbd3793\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the Waitangi Tribunal\u2019s assessment of the Treaty principles bill that states the bill risks destroying the very foundation of the constitutional arrangements of this country; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fd3320aa93dc93841d8c2c6becb621d\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: I have not had the opportunity to read through the entirety of the Waitangi Tribunal report in this regard, but I will note that it was absolutely egregious that, in 2017, the NCEA level 2 achievement rate for M\u0101ori was 78.5 percent, and by the time we came back in 2023 it had gone down to 65 percent. That\u2019s why, in this Government, I absolutely support Minister Stanford, who is spearheading a massive turn-around in educational achievement for M\u0101ori and all Kiwi kids\u2014and actually reads her emails.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221026ee970bac47ef7414df0b37d3a390\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b13e5633ddb686e44f9f270ed1576b6f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A point of order is heard in silence\u2014the Hon Willie Jackson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b14715e38ca8a3ee35007efb171e0555\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, the Minister didn\u2019t address the question at all. I was asking about the Waitangi Tribunal\u2019s assessment of the Treaty principles bill. I don\u2019t know what he was waffling on about, but if he could\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a119094eae77490b659f912b55f3b3c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, that\u2019s OK, because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b0f8cea562aba5cdaffddc9a2217b8e\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, so the question is about the Treaty principles bill, and he never addressed it at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a5c997600275d44f0b3bb8bd3500687\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, he did start by saying that he had, at this point, not had time to read the full report. I thought that was a reasonable way to start the answer. Any additional information, though, would be of no value to the member; well, that\u2019s OK, but it might have been to the rest of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a08db40dfdb626634f0d3e3e2b377991\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Why, then, given where the Minister is at, has the Minister allowed amendments to be made to the Education and Training Act that the Waitangi Tribunal has condemned and described as being as bad as the Treaty principles bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226edd49f880291434aafcf2dfc7216a96\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: Perhaps it was the case under the previous Government that the Minister for M\u0101ori Crown Relations had a veto on all legislation, but in this coalition Government, actually, we work on things together and that\u2019s how we actually move things through and ensure better clarity. But I will note, also, for the record, that a number of schools\u2014actually, most schools in this country\u2014have continued their commitment to Te Tiriti o Waitangi and don\u2019t need a legislative reference to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7763cdcc95db85ceee6521f2a6a5501\u0022\u003EHon Erica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by the Government\u2019s investments into a bilingual education system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221df20fd36e8ad4364d55030881e69e89\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, especially around that mahi in Budget 2025 around investing $10.5 million operating and $50 million capital expenditure into M\u0101ori-medium and kaupapa M\u0101ori education; and, also, strengthening k\u014Dhanga reo to aid in capability: $4.1 million; and, also, curriculum resources in te reo M\u0101ori: $4.5 million. We are committed to achievement and not just k\u014Drero about M\u0101ori achievement in education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271d8acf3a6f0476999f9d03b4ae70e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211ecbc9a4630e7097c174e0518ce6511\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, sir. Seeking a bit of direction from you. Essentially, what the honourable member from the Opposition, Mr Jackson, is asking is for my colleague to give, really, a legal response, and he\u2019s not required to give it in relation to him offering an opinion\u2014Speaker\u2019s ruling 186/6\u2014in terms of what the Waitangi Tribunal may or may not have said. The whole question is out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022665ec798e96fe0035277864b36ba63f7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it would be if the Waitangi Tribunal was a court, but it\u2019s not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9deefb69a8853b97a097ee6f74631f5\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: To the Minister, can he confirm that there will be no jobs lost at Te Puni K\u014Dkiri that relate to maintaining the M\u0101ori-Crown relationship, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297a97641ad4a6a00155e0a17fb47ca5f\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: As the honourable member will recall, I hope, from his previous days as a Minister, those are matter for operational decision-making within Te Puni K\u014Dkiri. But what this Government is absolutely sure on is that we will not increase the Public Service by 33 percent over six years and then get far poorer outcomes around a range of issues, whether or not that\u2019s conservation, M\u0101ori department, social housing, or a number of other things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022037c6ca7fba1afb8f3877d1a83d87768\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Has he told the finance Minister that there can be no more job cuts at Te Puni K\u014Dkiri and Te Arawhiti, given he\u2019s already made cuts to those agencies in previous Budgets; or is it only Winston Peters and David Seymour who are brave enough to say no to her?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e38deedafb8ce626a4434ae4a405f5d0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, that\u2019s not a question that can be asked. I\u2019ll give you a chance to reword it, but the last part\u2019s no good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e560ead49c565429357886863379726\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Has he told the finance Minister that there can be no more job cuts at Te Puni K\u014Dkiri and Te Arawhiti, given he\u2019s already made cuts to those agencies in previous Budgets; or is it only Winston Peters and David Seymour that are exempt from making cuts to their agencies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202ab29987a3e647a07e09266dad0027f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. Well, you can\u2019t\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205a12d78aff15428473c28f3a0b2e0c1\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: One more time? I\u2019ll give it another shot. [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e3110631e7f6da3c633b9e3df06791d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. Wait on. Just wait. You need to know where you\u2019re going wrong, and it sort of starts at the start and goes all the way through. You can\u2019t make assertions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cf738e426fb961eb9c2dcf0b77fe3ac\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: OK, all right. I think I\u2019ve got it now. I\u2019ll give it one more shot, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205b4a6c49113dd71b7f68c68c6c71e3e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019ll be the last one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0bdc7896141e1ae72c3f7097ce6b29b\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Last chance. Has the Minister told the finance Minister that there can be no more job cuts it Te Puni K\u014Dkiri and Te Arawhiti, given he\u2019s already made cuts to those agencies in previous Budgets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215fe9c0de4324b3c5236e080e81f255c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That was very good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e47a85c6111cb791f1bff6454ae7af3\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: As the honourable member will know, the quality of the Public Service is not determined by the quantity of public servants. This Government, and myself as the Minister for M\u0101ori Development, are absolutely focused that the ministry focuses and is geared towards achieving its role, delivering on its mandate, and making sure that it can be the best Ministry for M\u0101ori Development that it has ever been.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226be49509b8fd3b549f1dd9a2df45766a\u0022\u003ETourism and Hospitality\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223e9d0fdbd53a696b9b67f0e09d75d29a\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b52eff5aa2a94fcc88903b73d0443de3\u0022 data-id=\u002275aecb7b73ff1211c86797c100e22a58\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b52eff5aa2a94fcc88903b73d0443de3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275aecb7b73ff1211c86797c100e22a58\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National) (14:28)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister for Tourism and Hospitality\u003C/span\u003E: What recent reports has she seen on tourism in New Zealand? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u00228b755b40259bdd97df89c5eb10e4015c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b755b40259bdd97df89c5eb10e4015c\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Tourism and Hospitality) (14:28)\u003C/span\u003E: Data released by Stats NZ last week shows New Zealand\u2019s international visitor numbers continues to rise. Annual figures show we welcomed 3.63 million international visitors in the year ending March 2026, a 9.2 percent increase on the previous year. This means that we are now at 93 percent of our target of 2019 levels. Growing tourism is a key part of our Government\u2019s plan to fix the basics and build the future, and this progress shows that our plan is working.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b52eff5aa2a94fcc88903b73d0443de3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcb85ca20f4e81c790228298bbaadd5d\u0022\u003ENancy Lu\u003C/span\u003E: What markets have seen the strongest growth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b10ae460fc33705eaf713ec7b914149\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: We are seeing continued growth from our largest visitor market, which is, of course, Australia, with 138,360 people arriving in March, which is up 21 percent on the same time a year ago. There was also strong growth from other key tourism markets, including an 8.3 percent increase in visitors from the United States and a 20 percent increase in visitors from China. We are seeing the flow-on growth in confidence in our tourism and hospitality sector as more visitors have chosen New Zealand as their next holiday destination. More international visitors means more customers for our businesses, and ultimately, more jobs being created across the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b52eff5aa2a94fcc88903b73d0443de3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022977d32e7ed970e664cbffabb7a283a3b\u0022\u003ENancy Lu\u003C/span\u003E: How are the Government\u2019s policies and investments impacting visitor numbers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d6aa68090c1f59a9b51d9cc79cfacde\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Our Government\u2019s investments into things like business events, cycle trails, Regional Tourism Boost, major events, Tourism New Zealand, and changing visa settings are collectively making a positive impact. With more than 2.5\u00A0million trips a year, our investment into the 23 Great Rides of New Zealand now generates $1.28\u00A0billion a year. That\u2019s money flowing into our regions and growing our economy. Our first round of Regional Tourism Boost generated over 15,000 additional visitors. Our \u201CEveryone Must Go\u201D campaign, encouraging Australians to visit New Zealand, delivered almost 8,000 additional visitors, with an estimated\u2014wait for it\u2014$22\u00A0million in visitor spend to our economy. The visitor waiver trial that we introduced in November is also making a difference for Chinese visitors, with over 75,000 visits since the trial was introduced. That\u2019s an estimated economic injection of over $440\u00A0million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b52eff5aa2a94fcc88903b73d0443de3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd3e191127667e5e44359bff4fd4b44f\u0022\u003ENancy Lu\u003C/span\u003E: What regions are seeing growth in visitor spend?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220024941f540fdd7489208a05966e0ad3\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: The overall visitor spend for New Zealand and visitor spend in our regions has increased over the last two years. Every single region in New Zealand recorded a rise, with Auckland leading the way with a 21\u00A0percent increase for 2026 when compared to the previous year. Southland had the biggest turn-around from 2025, which lifted from 5\u00A0percent to 13\u00A0percent in 2026. Tourism is critical to our economy and to local jobs and higher wages, and our investments will help deliver lasting benefits for communities and businesses across New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226e584f2b2f486f52d02f38e1d04570a4\u0022\u003EMental Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002223e1c46fa1f583b684d2ec41e215073f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c4ca4cc5411f4905b1e974d906283186\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0fc568244d088169c13ac44ca1a4cbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4ca4cc5411f4905b1e974d906283186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0fc568244d088169c13ac44ca1a4cbf\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Te Tai Tokerau) (14:31)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister for Mental Health\u003C/span\u003E: Does he consider that Te Tai Tokerau region is facing a methamphetamine crisis, given Te Hiku has no detox facility and reported wait times at the region\u2019s only detox unit have increased since 2018 from six to eight weeks to 12 to 16 weeks? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022 data-id=\u0022e86ec74ad28c36ad2fcd9a354f14f593\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e86ec74ad28c36ad2fcd9a354f14f593\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health) (14:32)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister for Mental Health\u003C/span\u003E: No. I\u2019ve been advised that the Health New Zealand detox service for Northland reported today that it only has a six-week wait time. However, I understand that more work needs to be done to support those in the Far North and across New Zealand struggling with methamphetamine addiction. That is why in November last year, this Government released a comprehensive methamphetamine action plan. Part of that package saw $30 million over four years invested to increase the services available to communities hardest hit by meth, with almost $4 million going to local providers in Northland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4ca4cc5411f4905b1e974d906283186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff8f68d43fd46605c657a722c8ed2d02\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: What action is the Minister taking to support kaupapa M\u0101ori addiction providers in Te Hiku with additional Government funding of operational support for rehabilitation services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e393ab4041990ab213e62cef209297ab\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, I\u2019m pleased to announce that through the methamphetamine programme, new services are being stood up in the mid- and Far North. This includes a nurse practitioner in the mid-North, who will be able to support community detox, which may be suitable for some people. Te Hiku Hauora have been contracted to provide methamphetamine treatment, pou wh\u0101nau connector, and peer support services. These new services are set to launch on 8 June.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4ca4cc5411f4905b1e974d906283186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222eb87c599e0606670fe86cc9b8c03f28\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: What Te Tai Tokerau - specific methamphetamine harm indicators informed the Government\u2019s health investment decisions for the region?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3dbe8ee16850ca986a18251045071b2\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: We have collectively responded to a range of issues that are facing the Far North regarding methamphetamine. This has included a range of actions that we have delivered. Included in this is the recently announced\u2014Minister McKee and I announced this last week\u2014additional $12 million of proceeds of crime funding going to be invested in the Resilience to Organised Crime in Communities (ROCC) programme in the North. New ROCC funding will allow expansions into Kait\u0101ia, and this provides an around-the-system approach for police to crack down on gangs and drug networks. There is a stable support structure that helps build community resilience, and that breaks the grip of addiction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4ca4cc5411f4905b1e974d906283186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a35c7d5ed2e01a3981088540b5be7d6f\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister commit to targeted funding for addiction and rehabilitation services in Te Hiku, given detox times are now as high as 16 weeks? I did hear the Minister\u2019s previous response, Mr Speaker, but my information tells me that it is 16 weeks still.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f99b1c2dbf7e8ca14a1c8dd38306280e\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, yes I can confirm that as of today, we have advised and been confirmed that it is a six-week wait time. Yes, we have committed to continuing to support addiction and alcohol services. New Zealand has a strong addiction treatment system. We invested $221.3\u00A0million into alcohol and drug treatment services in 2024-25, and we have a good handle on the coverage and outputs of those services, which support over 46,895 people per year. We know the services are effective; that is shown through evaluations and international outcome measures that put us on par with global standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4ca4cc5411f4905b1e974d906283186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276069471b88adc9385afe125697dea7b\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister received advice that rising methamphetamine harm in Te Tai Tokerau is contributing to increasing numbers of children entering Oranga Tamariki care?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022106286c54af2823fa742bbf6cb4fc8ff\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, a range of advice has been received regarding methamphetamine addiction. It is a serious issue, and we are aware of this. The Government\u2019s plan is already in the implementation phase, with services being expanded in identified hot spot regions, including Northland. This includes new and expanded treatment services, workforce development programmes, and enhanced early intervention initiatives. While some initiatives have experienced minor delays, they remain on track and are now being progressively introduced and scaled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022032975bd300c97477d1db120fa2b056b\u0022\u003EHealth\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227c1e5e1ee5bf99d6c571c495077fd6c6\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022 data-id=\u0022381974da1d15e1f2af6d5295e5c92188\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022381974da1d15e1f2af6d5295e5c92188\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour) (14:36)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister of Health\u003C/span\u003E: Why are more patients having their referrals to specialists declined in the seven districts for which data was released to the Association of Salaried Medical Specialists?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022 data-id=\u002205b0bdca9ce52c9e13376ff5d1341948\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205b0bdca9ce52c9e13376ff5d1341948\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health) (14:36)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister of Health\u003C/span\u003E: This Government is focused on putting patients back at the heart of our healthcare system after years of significant increases in wait-lists for elective surgeries and first specialist assessments. Health New Zealand advises that despite a significant increase in referrals, the proportion declined has reduced over the past year and it is delivering materially more first specialist assessments and treatments than ever before. The latest validated data shows the number of people waiting for a first specialist assessment has reduced by more than 4,500 since January last year, following an 81 percent blowout between 2017 and 2023. As the member will be aware, the premise that declined referrals represent people missing care is misleading. Referrals are assessed through a structured clinical triage process undertaken by clinicians with patient safety and wellbeing the priority, and where referral is declined, patients continue to be managed by their family doctor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fef535038d5edf3eb1319c4896ba81ac\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister release that latest data that she claims shows a different result from the increasing number of declined referrals in the data released to the Association of Salaried Medical Specialists (ASMS)?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277f0014c4f11ba491822a1ecce27cf81\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, the data that I have quoted today, I\u2019m sure, will be made available to the member. I\u2019m advised that the information that the member is relying upon, which is referred to the ASMS, and other unions\u2019 activity has affected delivery through 2025, which is the period the member was quoting. This has resulted in the first specialist assessment volumes running below the plan through the latter half of last year. Since then, and particularly this year, Health New Zealand has worked hard to bring delivery back on track and is now ahead of the plan for first specialist assessments and on track to deliver the planned boost in elective volumes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284d70197a4460e8031a7a994d978082c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Why did his Government deliver fewer first specialist appointments in 2025 than in 2023, a year in which there were also health unions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222e48e29f661c86d8c7570cfe606f1c8\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot be responsible for what was delivered in 2023. I can refer to what has occurred in 2025 and assure the member that since that period of late 2025, we are ahead of targets and delivering positive outcomes in terms of both elective surgeries and first assessments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3cf8821534c592068dd20b76aff8b03\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Are Health New Zealand\u2019s tight, centralised controls on recruitment, introduced under this Government, the reason there are not enough specialists to see patients in New Zealand\u2019s hospitals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f33e1e8b0e4954e73fc389eb06c1aea\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, I refute the claim made in that question. We are not having less appointments. We are delivering more referrals and more elective surgeries and more surgeries and interventions than the previous Government. We are meeting targets and we are delivering because we have set clear targets and accountabilities within our health system. We applaud the specialists for delivering. As I have stated in my primary answer, assessments are a clinical decision made by clinicians, and the health and wellbeing of the patient is always paramount.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203f09b9bcbda4b8453beacccb0f4a58b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Have clinicians raised concerns about risks posed by declined referrals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271d8acf3a6f0476999f9d03b4ae70e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220abf17356b4973299d71debafa3a9c80\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019ve raised concerns about you!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227673aaebb92c92efa81a1213ad2bbb6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t think that\u2019s right. I sit here, almost blameless, day after day, with very little complaint!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215e5c6811c11ba1ae754accecb6aa72d\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: I can state that Health New Zealand advises\u2014on behalf of the Minister\u2014that despite a significant increase in referrals, the proportion declined has reduced over the past year and it is delivering materially more first specialist assessments and treatments than ever before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c210bcd6ea01e6d460911a9e9a1f333\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Is the reason there is no action on the serious issue of declined referrals because his political party priority of meeting the target is more important than the health priority of people getting to see a specialist?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0c9747b0c605dae7eff7412ca0eceeb\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, as we have replied, the issue that the member is raising does not exist. We have increased the number of first assessments, and the referral process is working effectively. We have reduced the backlog that was established through to 2025, and we continue to beat all of the targets of the previous Government, which we have had to recover from under this term of Government, and we are delivering well and on track and improving continually.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cdaa70c1cd3748f5df40b9b081aa2d54\u0022\u003EWomen\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fa6a0f165c57ffe460ba4992981b1dc4\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002288978fb9592a4911a8e47eae04d164f3\u0022 data-id=\u0022baee0c5df4f8260ed10cd1faa423af35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002288978fb9592a4911a8e47eae04d164f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022baee0c5df4f8260ed10cd1faa423af35\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula) (14:41)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister for Women\u003C/span\u003E: What progress has she seen about improving early detection and outcomes for women with breast cancer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f97e1d62ea50d0b3e2d3ae7dde9ef4d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f97e1d62ea50d0b3e2d3ae7dde9ef4d4\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG (Minister for Women) (14:42)\u003C/span\u003E: This Government is focused on early detection, faster treatment, and delivering cancer care closer to home. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve extended the upper age for funded breast screening from 69 to 74, delivering on an election commitment. Since the roll-out began, more than half of the 31,800 women invited for screening have been screened, and 190 breast cancers have been detected\u2014that is 190 women now able to begin treatment earlier. These are women who may otherwise not have known they\u2019d had cancer until much later, when treatment can be more difficult and outcomes poorer. For many of them, screening may have made all the difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002288978fb9592a4911a8e47eae04d164f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b809089ea88ad954f759feb70b139f0\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: Why is expanding screening such a priority?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3c1e7ee6c21c567aa85cd8d35bec863\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG\u003C/span\u003E: Because catching cancer early gives women the best possible chance of beating it. Around 37 percent of breast cancers are currently detected through the BreastScreen Aotearoa programme, and expanding screening means more cancers will be found earlier, when treatment is more effective. The 190 cancers already detected through this expansion show exactly why this Government backed it. These are mothers, daughters, wives, and friends who will now be able to spend more time with their loved ones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002288978fb9592a4911a8e47eae04d164f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e46eecbf98517a794cc0825f5f61861c\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: How is the Government improving access to screening across the country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c15d959d5004c78949adf184ac19f5cc\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG\u003C/span\u003E: We know access matters, particularly for women in regional and rural communities. That\u2019s why we\u2019re expanding screening capacity through new facilities, upgraded equipment, and mobile services such as the new screening site in Waikanae. We\u2019re also rolling out 14 new community infusion centres, including in Rolleston in Selwyn, so more women can receive treatment closer to home, with less time travelling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002288978fb9592a4911a8e47eae04d164f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3bf0a8567b582a9634d03a438951214\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: What else is the Government doing to improve outcomes for women with breast cancer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f1b1cd2a5cdc536498a78ed852338d0\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG\u003C/span\u003E: This Government is backing cancer care, with real investment and real action. We provided Pharmac with a $604 million boost, enabling access to new cancer medicines like Keytruda and Enhertu, and we reinstated faster cancer treatment targets to ensure patients are seen sooner. Alongside the work of organisations like the Breast Cancer Foundation, we are building a health system that delivers earlier care, better treatment, and stronger outcomes for New Zealand women.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022507c2424ab64d7e82de3117658efff68\u0022\u003ESocial Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221bf5c81865bdd21b6dc41b7a47193631\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022 data-id=\u0022141c19b8585e4e8731b262eae569f868\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022141c19b8585e4e8731b262eae569f868\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour) (14:44)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister for Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by her statement that \u201Cwe have really reset the welfare system to ensure it is meeting the needs of young people\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5ae99006604db763437a1fdaabe5082\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5ae99006604db763437a1fdaabe5082\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment) (14:45)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. We acknowledge that many Kiwis are finding things tough at the moment. That\u2019s why our Government has created a more active welfare system with more people in case management, more individual support, and a traffic light system with clear obligations. We are ambitious for all New Zealanders and have far greater aspirations for young New Zealanders than a life spent on welfare. Our Government is focused on growing the economy and taking steps to put all New Zealanders on a better path so that as many Kiwis as possible share in the benefits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ec72223c686a08be799df65ddb3df4b\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: How does 100,000 young people not in education, employment, or training show she is meeting the needs of young people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da8e0b3bcbbe8b13e250fa20c91a1dcf\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as I said in my primary answer, we have a far more active welfare system that includes individual assessments for young job seekers, individual employment plans, more and individualised case management\u2014and we know case management is the most effective in terms of supporting people off welfare into work. We have introduced a $1,000 bonus for young job seekers who get off welfare and stay in work, and despite there being challenging economic times, we\u2019ve seen 84,000 New Zealanders leave welfare for work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a1fc7d50bb749f18a978deebf18a43e\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Did she or her office or the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) receive legal advice about removing 18- and 19-year-olds from the jobseeker benefit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263d00d2a0058ab728ec7caabd7b0979b\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as that member will know, that is legislation that has been referred to the Social Services and Community Committee, and we look forward to hearing what is said. In terms of the advice, we receive advice from MSD.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022952aae864b39f6ea9217b9ad59b9c511\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: How is removing access to the jobseeker benefit for 18- and 19-year-olds, when there are no jobs for them to go to, meeting the needs of young people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f95cf167905bf21eef3d5be92869d753\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we\u2019re very clear about our aspirations for young people, and that is that they should be in further education or training or a job. What we do know is that a young person who goes on to the jobseeker benefit under 20 is likely to spend another 21 years of their life on welfare. We don\u2019t think that is a life that they should have in New Zealand, and the economic growth that our Government is leading\u2014whether it\u2019s fast-track jobs; 240,000 jobs over the next four years\u2014provides them with the opportunity of work, and we will stick with that ambition for our young people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b030476e2a666299de4952460c55672\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Why should parents believe her when she says she\u2019s encouraging their children to find work, when there are no jobs for them to go to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3e37d12f41c2968628f333c00ac73e0\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, what we want to see is more young New Zealanders in further education and in training and preparing for the opportunities. I outlaid all of the support and assistance that MSD is providing, and I think the front-line team at MSD is doing an extraordinary job of that very one-on-one assistance with young people that improves their opportunities, and, as those jobs arrive, they will be at the front of the queue and not the back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228d71857096df3b07e7fc3eabd0b047aa\u0022\u003ESocial Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fd8895022511495b5d3dd96c3aefa028\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022 data-id=\u00225b956ff22c324cccf7458028a9ebd901\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b956ff22c324cccf7458028a9ebd901\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green) (14:48)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister for Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E: How many families with children will be impacted by the increase in the entry threshold for the accommodation supplement, and what will be the average reduction in their accommodation supplement per week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u002200e4fdb5c93f47c3b88c224eaa5d9c7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200e4fdb5c93f47c3b88c224eaa5d9c7b\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment) (14:48)\u003C/span\u003E: Our Government is focused on targeting financial assistance to those most in need. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve increased the entry threshold for the accommodation supplement for homeowners. We\u2019ve made this change to ensure that the accommodation supplement is targeted so those who own their own home will not get the same level of assistance, because we accept that that taxpayer support is going to grow an individual\u2019s asset\u2014i.e., their home. Of the estimated 9,300 clients impacted by the entry threshold change, 6,400 are identified as families with children. For those families with children\u2014and, as I said, they are homeowners; they are not renters\u2014the estimated average reduction in the entitlement will be $42 per week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280719ab692730c1053b52b1353f57c2a\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that most people impacted by these changes are low to middle income working households who could see a reduction of up to $59 per week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244be4939031b146d62cafb799483b7ff\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, these are New Zealanders who, yes, might be on low-middle incomes who own their own homes. We want to target support for the accommodation supplement to those who need it most, and they are renters; they are not people who are using taxpayer support to increase their own asset.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227afbdd0df07597745d61ac278fde31ff\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: What does she say to the families who, according to her own Ministry, could experience \u201Cincreased risk of housing insecurity and financial stress\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223630d1b87d4a85be63ace029c9ae8003\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, our Government is focused on targeting support to those who need it most. And I accept that sometimes there are challenging choices, but people who own their own home have greater choices than those that are renting. That\u2019s why we are ensuring that renters will get greater support, and some of what this will deliver means that we are able to increase support to a larger number of renters because we are changing the accommodation supplement boundaries, which mean more people will get support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022450295ee9631352e5cdc73cc797681e6\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Is she saying that none\u2014[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022add3eed22794786cdc5040a4cb26efa5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a moment. There\u2019s no one else talking while someone is asking a question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256f8777559b653cd3f0fd0d6a10654c8\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Is she saying that none of the families impacted by these changes could end up having increased housing insecurity and financial stress?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb8ac844abd4412bec45fdc0febcc0eb\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve acknowledged that, you know, times are challenging at the moment, and what we must do as a Government is ensure that we are targeting the support to those who have greater needs. I don\u2019t think there would be anyone in this House who would disagree that renters have higher needs than homeowners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf9e1eb91ef740868a26db659355f7e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e57167d84246e3d57ee3d1b1cd106c1a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Will families that are so impacted be able to get around it by falsifying their records?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edd79112306d55cb57180b25dd8ca857\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: I would always want to ensure that people are following the rules and abiding by the rules in terms of getting taxpayer support. I would expect that if anyone is aware of those sorts of cases, they should raise it with the Ministry of Social Development so their team can investigate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022880fe7c4892ad3affb25ceab38e85cf7\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Is she planning to reduce access to any other assistance that helps with\u2014and I quote from the Ministry of Social Development\u2019s website\u2014\u201Cessential living costs\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e3ab75ed692b321227c017af0726e0e\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: The question is about the accommodation supplement and the entry criteria, so the member will be aware that my colleague announced changes to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225845eafa2715f2928b6dc40cbc2a7eed\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: You announced it as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022419fef7f8d073864158418ff452d3ac1\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, to the accommodation supplement\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228252e7bc1b6baca664190d3a3ccce46b\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: And the temporary additional support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221483abd82d55f8e0774aa06f39b19cf4\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014which actually increases it by $10 to $30 a week. I\u2019d be surprised if that member was concerned about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7c20a8e4edef34c706aaaca2d1de012\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. The question was actually quite straightforward and it\u2019s just whether she was planning to reduce any other assistance that helps people cover their \u201Cessential living costs\u201D. I don\u2019t believe that was addressed whatsoever, despite there being an announcement today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b146a116cff3c40112e6e8a8843ab7e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It may not have been, but the primary question talks about the accommodation supplement, and there was no expansion in any of the answers from the Minister that took it outside of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf9e1eb91ef740868a26db659355f7e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240a041161dc0cfe2c3523d0fc2b2313d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Of interest to the primary questioner, has there been any evidence that\u2019s come before her of members of Parliament recommending that the records be distorted to try and get where they want to go as applicants?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebb2f8afb564092dace0c02c3129be9e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That would not be something that the Minister has any knowledge of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf9e1eb91ef740868a26db659355f7e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022461d4a6b949f706fc9c59fabe125b724\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: No, but the questioner knows all about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec77efbe7c2b317cabccc68edf4d4436\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s not something the Minister can comment on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250a2c0568ba832db79d708d33f807cc7\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Should people already struggling to survive pay a disproportionate price in her cuts to access to the accommodation supplement and correlated rent subsidies or the temporary additional support?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296b4e41c1e9b7bf51f09b0ef7c43d211\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I missed the first part of that. Could the member repeat it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225abff94743b0a105486d62e66b2ae48a\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Should people already struggling to make ends meet pay a disproportionate price in her cuts to access the accommodation supplement, income-related rent subsidies, and temporary additional support?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e4ebaf026d8a771adb0acd6c910b10a\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve said, our Government is absolutely focused on ensuring that taxpayer support goes to those who need it the most. What we have seen in this Government is a real focus on getting spending back under control, because when inflation is at 7.3\u00A0percent rather than 3.1, the number of New Zealanders that are hurt as a result of that is extraordinary. So the member might not understand that what we are trying to do, in terms of getting inflation under control, is for the larger benefit for a large group of New Zealanders across the board. We have to target support to those who need it most, and that is exactly what our Government is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002298acf14dda6af159c2190dd3b6ce8b3e\u0022\u003EPublic Service and Digitising Government\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ec230ad757d5cfc23cd97428e5db7885\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2556712350974eb4254afc38c47b3c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2556712350974eb4254afc38c47b3c1\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour) (14:55)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister for the Public Service and Digitising Government\u003C/span\u003E: Which agencies will bear the largest share of the 8,700 public service roles to be cut by July 2029?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u00226226d52354c027bd655f263dbe0d508b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226226d52354c027bd655f263dbe0d508b\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for the Public Service and Digitising Government) (14:55)\u003C/span\u003E: All public agencies are expected to reduce their number of roles by 4 percent. That, of course, means that the larger agencies will bear the largest share. I remind the House that, between mid-2017 and the end of 2023, the public sector increased from 47,000 to 65,000. That\u2019s over 18,000, an increase of nearly 40 percent. That was unsustainable, and that\u2019s why we are working towards a workforce of, in principle, below 55,000 by mid-2029, which aligns more closely with historic norms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266e41e0e2c2b6e44e2791e80473d3002\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: Is there a cost-benefit analysis underpinning the 55,000 fulltime-equivalent cap for public servants, and if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262f519b4073f1aa9e303ba143994bf4d\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I haven\u2019t seen that particular analysis, just as I didn\u2019t see any analysis about increasing the size of the Public Service by 18,000, which the previous administration undertook, but I\u2019m pretty sure\u2014I don\u2019t know; I could be wrong\u2014that that costs a lot more. What we are interested in, in this Government, are the things that the Public Service delivers, and that is what we are focusing on, such as reducing the number of victims of crime, such as improving educational performance, and many other matters. That\u2019s what really matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fdab4932950aa09b910d9eb69b7e0c3\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the final number of departments after mergers not yet known, when the savings of $2.4 billion have already been accounted for?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de5c391e01eb807035ff9e879ce9aa54\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Because we\u2019re working our way through that process, and there are two different ways one could go about it. One could start at the top and just decide these are going to be the new structures; another way is to work with the chief executives of the existing agencies, get them to think laterally, talk with their colleagues, and come up with proposals. With a combination of both those things, we\u2019ll end up with a more efficient Public Service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b7db59a8e0d5b36369a55b13f7a0c68\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: How, then, will he know that the savings that have been budgeted for will actually be achieved?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e07f67dcb292bbb802171ffe41e72362\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is our goal in Government over the next three years, if we\u2019re fortunate to be returned by the people of New Zealand to achieve that goal, and the good news is the many goals we have achieved. This is going to be another one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6b9e91f404153ac992d79b4f28719a3\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that over half of the affected roles are outside Wellington, and if so, which centres\u2019 economies outside of Wellington will be hit the hardest?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258108740231c377c13af6ec9372b1205\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it\u2019s true that many of the public servants are from across the country, and, of course, they were also part of the very, very significant increase in the Public Service size over the previous administration, an increase that was unsustainable. It\u2019s part of the reason why we\u2019re grappling with very large deficits and we have a very large debt. All of those things Nicola Willis and the rest of the team are trying to redeem. Yes, there will be impacts across the country, but our focus is on delivering better results, not necessarily going for a bigger Public Service, like the previous administration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f68386db1a546fc21a6403c9b7063412\u0022\u003ESpace\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229d3ea0364ec16ab059539989d95bc96c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c96149a439844ecfa86967f9caf5f50d\u0022 data-id=\u002295cd39e40741a078d3ec97431b0b38ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c96149a439844ecfa86967f9caf5f50d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295cd39e40741a078d3ec97431b0b38ac\u0022\u003EKATIE NIMON (National\u2014Napier) (14:58)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister for Space\u003C/span\u003E: What recent announcement has he made about the Kiwi Space Activator?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022624b5e5ecd274e178a4554c1ae59f723\u0022 data-id=\u00220fdaaef769b7991df99b46e185720b8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022624b5e5ecd274e178a4554c1ae59f723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fdaaef769b7991df99b46e185720b8f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Space) (14:58)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for M\u0101hia Peninsula for the question. I was pleased to announce recently the first recipients of the Kiwi Space Activator, a pilot programme designed to help more innovative space technology from the laboratory to the sky. In round one, Dawn Aerospace, the University of Canterbury, and the University of Auckland were awarded a total of $1.48 million to support exciting projects, including flying a small satellite, biological microgravity experiments, and the CubeSat TPA-2 satellite hosting New Zealand\u2019s developed payloads. I expect you\u2019re about as familiar with those as I am, Mr Speaker! This pilot programme will help shape future Government support for the space and advanced aviation sectors, to achieve our ambition of doubling their value by the year 2030.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243c1433fdca648cc76f5b5c6b38fa8c7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you; very informative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c96149a439844ecfa86967f9caf5f50d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d254721a476833b3b2953f30ea2771b2\u0022\u003EKatie Nimon\u003C/span\u003E: What challenges do these projects address?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022624b5e5ecd274e178a4554c1ae59f723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3da5f983f9348525c1b6d3ee7d4cd18\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: These projects address real-world challenges identified by Government agencies. These include maritime security, space situational awareness, biosecurity, ecosystem health, and the New Zealand Space Agency challenge to deliver core components of a satellite in an innovative way. Kiwi Space Activator is helping to turn big ideas into big impact, further boosting New Zealand\u2019s reputation as a hub for space innovation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c96149a439844ecfa86967f9caf5f50d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228ec66c859e1fb8720601d6505cf3f19\u0022\u003EKatie Nimon\u003C/span\u003E: What is the purpose of the Kiwi Space Activator?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022624b5e5ecd274e178a4554c1ae59f723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f78f01a30345487436a2338fce2d07e2\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, another very good question. I\u2019ll just point out that the Kiwi Space Activator aims to reduce barriers for New Zealand organisations to test and develop new space technologies, including in orbit. Despite the association with the flightless bird, the Kiwi Space Activator demonstration flights help business attract customers and investors, helping to create jobs and to grow our space industry. It also develops New Zealand\u2019s space capabilities and supports innovative projects that could contribute to a national space mission in the years ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c96149a439844ecfa86967f9caf5f50d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f5b386dc8605eeb5bcb3b35dc1d8862\u0022\u003EKatie Nimon\u003C/span\u003E: What are the next steps for the Kiwi Space Activator?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022624b5e5ecd274e178a4554c1ae59f723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2a6a2f9fc3f4c4cf384cd9b5def039f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Last one, I promise. Applications for round two, in a word from our sponsor, are currently open and will close at midnight Monday, 25 May 2026. Up to $600,000 is available to support research, development, and flight costs. I encourage Kiwi organisations with exciting space technology concepts\u2014as opposed to unexciting ones\u2014to apply for round two so that we can continue to build the future of New Zealand\u2019s space industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254aa73b3bf4cd7eab37f8797c177420f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That concludes oral questions. We will take 30 seconds. For those who have to leave the House for other business, do so quickly and quietly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f9ee5fb19a92dfb8fdc422edb223ad11\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002243280312b3f3e6850c11e9931e54c351\u0022\u003EDisability Support Services Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e57bb4e8dac5419129d5227a641c004f\u0022\u003ELegislative Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u002255aecbd1b644f808f696db0531e82dec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255aecbd1b644f808f696db0531e82dec\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues) (15:02)\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to present a legislative statement on the Disability Support Services Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ebf85c9ab177859e6b055598fe97476\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There appears to be none. The legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022221b18ad8b8e349e81dd55997b85d878\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u0022bcf208cd028031256ed12ad6324dec10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bcf208cd028031256ed12ad6324dec10\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues) (15:02)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the Disability Support Services Bill be now read a first time\u003C/span\u003E. I nominate the Social Services and Community Committee to consider the bill. At the appropriate time, I intend to move that the bill be reported to the House by 13 August 2026 and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except oral questions) during any evening on a day in which there has been a sitting of the House, on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, and outside the Wellington area despite Standing Orders 193, 195, and 196.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EDisability Support Services (DSS) funds essential supports for some of our most vulnerable disabled New Zealanders. A 2024 independent review confirmed longstanding issues with DSS, and the Government took action to stabilise it. In the last two Budgets, we have invested a record $2.1 billion over five years into Disability Support Services to address demand and cost pressures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOver the last 18 months, we have undertaken engagement with disabled people and their families to learn how disability support services should best be provided and improved. Disabled people and families have said that they want certainty in what they can access and for it to be consistently available. DSS has implemented a new needs assessment process to ensure a consistent level of support, and it specifically considers, for the very first time ever, the needs of carers. More choice and control has also been given for how people can use their flexible funding. However, there is more needed to strengthen DSS for the future and to ensure that we continue to make progress on the principles of enabling good lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EDSS operates without a legislative framework that sets its purpose and authorises the use of appropriated funding. This absence has created legal and fiscal risks. A recent Supreme Court judgment has highlighted these risks. Work on DSS legislation had been under way on a slower track, but because of the added uncertainty disabled people and their families face with the financial risks, I have brought this work forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe bill establishes a needed foundational framework for strengthening Disability Support Services. It gives certainty to disabled people on what DSS does and for who. This is something the disability community and their organisations have been asking for for years. The bill clarifies that DSS funding is a contribution towards disabled people being able to live an everyday life. It makes clear that families and wh\u0101nau have responsibility for the wellbeing of their families in the first instance and where appropriate, and that is exactly what has been happening already. It reflects the way DSS already works. It doesn\u2019t mean that DSS won\u2019t help where disabled people\u2019s families support them. As I say, there is no change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe disability community have asked for increased transparency, and that will be achieved by enabling the responsible Minister to make ministerial programmes as secondary legislation. These authorise the use of funding for disability support and are subject to parliamentary oversight. While I am the Minister for Disability Issues, I intend to undertake appropriate and targeted consultation on all ministerial programmes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFollowing its introduction this week, I have heard concerns, including whether this bill introduces means testing. To be clear, this bill does not change current eligibility and access to support, nor does it introduce any new requirements for disabled people, families, and carers. Asset and income testing have long been used for a very small number of DSS supports, such as home modifications and equipment. It is not used in relation to personal care or carer support, and this bill does not change it. I\u2019d really encourage people with concerns to engage in the select committee process but also to be clear about what this bill does and doesn\u2019t do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe absence of a legislative framework to set DSS policy has created an opening for litigation. In December 2025, the Supreme Court found that two family members paid by disabled people to care for them are employees of the Crown. It was never intended that carers in this situation would be Crown employees. The judgment highlights legal and fiscal risk to the Crown by widening the definition of what constitutes employment. This has created a risk of unmanageable costs, which may impact the provision of disability support. This bill reaffirms that it is the Government and Parliament that sets policy and funding, not individual court decisions. The Crown faces further litigation based on the precedent of the Supreme Court judgment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy intention is that appropriated funding for DSS goes to quality disability support services and not to further costs from litigation. This is why the bill includes a litigation bar for historical employment claims of paid family carers. This bar will be limited to claims relating to decisions or events prior to the bill\u2019s introduction. It is also why the bill extinguishes claims filed, but not resolved or determined, before the date the bill commences. These provisions are not made lightly. I consider them necessary to provide the certainty and consistency that disabled people continue to ask for. The bill does not affect the two successful claims or any subsequent remedies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis bill sets the foundation for strengthening DSS, and I intend that it will be built upon to ensure its sustainability into the future. Appropriate arrangements will be put in place by DSS for people who may not be able to make decisions for themselves. These must be safe, enable the right support, and be on the right legal basis. As a transition measure, the bill includes novel provisions, such as temporarily validating existing employment arrangements between disabled people who lack decision-making capacity and their family carers. This is necessary to ensure that highly vulnerable disabled people continue to receive essential care and support services until new arrangements are put in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFamily and wh\u0101nau play a significant role in caring for disabled people, but an employment model is not always appropriate or practical. It can impact the health and wellbeing of both the disabled person and their family member, and it is not a natural basis for their relationship. For this reason, I\u2019ve directed officials to work with the sector on a new carer-support package that better recognises and supports carers outside of an employment model, and this bill enables such support to be funded. The support package will be informed through consultation with the community and carer groups. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI ask Parliament to support this bill as a significant further step towards stronger disability support services, to better serve disabled New Zealanders and to provide clarity and certainty and a strong foundation for the future. Disabled people and their families have been asking for this. They have been asking for a strong legislative framework with clear, consistent, and certain disability support services, and I want to ensure that they have that certainty, clarity, and transparency that they have been asking for for a very long time. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022 data-id=\u0022d422c03901190630e372f59b78d0bf57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d422c03901190630e372f59b78d0bf57\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour) (15:11)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. We\u2019re here today because, according to the Government, this bill does largely two things, and we\u2019ve heard from the Minister responsible, who has said that it establishes a legislative framework for disability support services (DSS) funding, including by enabling the making of secondary legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, I want to be absolutely clear: on this side of the House, the Labour Party supports the legislative framework aspect of this bill. I agree with the Minister that there is a need for that. In fact, it\u2019s the lack of a legislative framework for DSS that has seen the chopping and changing of flexibility when it comes to DSS support and so many other changes, including access to residential care, that this Government has inflicted on disability communities over the last two years. I want to be clear that we support that aspect of it, but we cannot support the bill as it is currently drafted, and I will quickly lay out some of the reasons for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBut, firstly, I want to acknowledge that we are here today because of a case that was brought about by Christine Fleming and Peter Humphreys, who each care for adult disabled family members in their family homes. Peter is in the gallery today and I want to acknowledge him, and Christine, and to thank them for their courage and persistence for fighting this case, for about eight years, from memory\u2014and here we are today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think Peter said it best in an email to me, and I want to acknowledge the large number of emails that I have received on this. People are fearful of this bill, and I will lay out why. But he said it best when he said that we need to stand up against this at a time when people are \u201Cfeeling frightened, unheard, and deeply concerned about this bill\u201D\u2014unheard because there has been a lack of meaningful consultation on this aspect of the legislative framework, and that\u2019s what I\u2019m hearing loud and clear from the sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u201CNothing about us without us\u201D is not only the rallying cry of the disability community but the philosophical bedrock of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, and this is concerning\u2014the lack of consultation on this aspect is concerning. The fact that this bill has come out of the blue; that there\u2019s been radio silence from the Government since the Supreme Court ruling at the end of last year, where we could have had a transparent conversation around alternative options. The fiscal cost to the Crown, both of upholding the ruling but, also, if care is stepped back from the duty of care that they provide to disabled people\u2014but none of that has been out in the public domain, and here we are today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe heavy reliance on secondary legislation: that creates uncertainty and anxiety for disability communities who have been struggling with uncertainty and anxiety over the last two years. This exacerbates it. And now, Parliament is being asked to support a rather vague framework that signals some deeply problematic things without any of us seeing the detail. Much of the impact of those decisions will be how they operate in practice, and that\u2019s why people are so fearful of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to touch on what the Minister has said: that it doesn\u2019t signal any change for disabled people or carers in terms of their support currently. She has said that this is not a sneaky way of the Government to move towards means testing disability support funding, but that is not what is out there in the community. If that\u2019s what the Minister holds on to, it is her responsibility to clarify that in the primary legislation, not the secondary legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EHuge references to natural supports; families are breaking down because of the stress of disability. The Minister keeps saying no change from there, but it signals a move away from a rights-based framework to one that is closer to a benefit system.  If it\u2019s not that, then clarify the legislation, Minister, because that is the worry. It is also the worry because of the trajectory of this Government, and it\u2019s at a time when so much is being reduced. There\u2019s \u201Ca broader political pattern of welfare tightening, transport reductions, housing accessibility failures, pressure on carers, health systems strain, and stricter funding controls.\u201D I quote from Huhana Hickey\u2019s fabulous work on Substack. That is what is underpinning the anxiety and the fear for disability communities and the lack of trust with this Government. The onus is on the Minister to make this legislation as clear as possible that we\u2019re not moving towards means testing, that it\u2019s not a sneaky way to reduce support further for disability communities, disabled people, and carers, who have been traumatised by this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a9132473ddf040a897b92b965ff8d6b1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7d6c6ef3edaf92aef7798018bf48daa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a9132473ddf040a897b92b965ff8d6b1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7d6c6ef3edaf92aef7798018bf48daa\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER (Green) (15:16)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Green Party strongly opposes the Disability Support Services Bill. Disabled people deserve access to their community, disabled people deserve access to the care they need, and care workers who care for disabled people deserve to be paid for their work. This bill was introduced under the guise of\u2014and I\u2019m reading from the explanatory note here\u2014\u201Cimproving the consistency, fairness, transparency, and sustainability of the disability support service system.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EWhat this bill is really doing is singling out disabled people by creating a different set of standards for them compared to other New Zealanders. It allows for the erosion of rights of disabled people. The Disability Support Services Bill is being framed as a technical update, but what is in the fine print is that it enshrines in law the ideology that Luxon\u2019s Government has perpetuated of how disability support is understood and how services should be delivered. This is an enabling law; so, initially, the impact might not be felt much, but the major red flags are the fine print. What this law does is enable a secondary legislation to enshrine in law what Luxon\u2019s Government has been shifting to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddb571f88dc1e30e3932ed1e8a307c85\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m sorry. I\u2019ll stop you there. You will terminate the speech. You know that you must address members of the House by their full name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a9132473ddf040a897b92b965ff8d6b1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e739a3c2465ea86b85ff77324fa2419e\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, apologies. Am I able to continue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b875644521aaa9bba0fcfd1574d7801f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a9132473ddf040a897b92b965ff8d6b1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228c0044df1205713a0842e9ae31a7dd1\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Disability support services are moving away from a human rights-based model to one that is discretionary and more like a charity model.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn the explanatory note, it talks about transparency. \u201CNothing about us without us.\u201D has been repeated over and over by disabled people, something the Minister has professed to have listened to. Disabled people have had no say and no warning on this bill. It was introduced on Monday night with no consultation with disabled people, and about 30 minutes before it was announced, there was a briefing for some disability groups. Now, just three days later, we are at the first reading, which is likely to pass due to coalition support, and I want to impart a reasonable request that disabled people have asked me to impart to the Minister\u2014to have a longer submission period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Minister in their opening statement talked about 13 August, which is not enough time. Disabled people have asked to have adequate time to have accessibility for disabled people, for captions to be added to the live select committee hearings to allow for disabled people to participate in the democratic process, which is their right and the right of all New Zealanders, something the Government should be taking very seriously. In the explanatory note, it also talked about fairness.  There is a pattern that has emerged from the current Government: when working New Zealanders win workers\u2019 rights cases through the courts, like pay equity, like Uber drivers, and like this case where parents who became full-time carers for their disabled children have been awarded by the court that they are employees of the Government, the Government\u2019s response, rather than upholding the court\u2019s decisions around human rights and workers\u2019 rights, is to change the law. That is a political choice. It is a political choice who the Government listens to and who they don\u2019t. It is a political choice who the Government funds and who they do not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis Minister has been consistent in targeting disabled people and the systemic erosion of disabled people\u2019s rights. This bill sets the future foundation for disability support in Aotearoa, and we must have disabled people\u2019s voices. The Green Party will always fight for \u201Cnothing about us without us\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022443f23de4cbd464f91833e6c466c98c0\u0022 data-id=\u0022500d5435c7e17b424157500a522a2093\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022443f23de4cbd464f91833e6c466c98c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022500d5435c7e17b424157500a522a2093\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT) (15:21)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of ACT to speak on the Disability Support Services Bill. Firstly, I want to acknowledge all of those in the disabled community\u2014people living with a disability, their carers, family, and all the actual service providers that look after this important community. I think we actually have a responsibility in this House to debate and discuss these issues with respect, with facts, and actually not with rhetoric and create scaremongering or other things that could cause distress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EAs the Minister clearly outlined\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f541cca903399d670d69f6fb1982a5a1\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Just like you did last night on Jenny Marcroft\u2019s bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1157997d910044345c0fd0ca8222209\u0022\u003EHon Priyanca Radhakrishnan\u003C/span\u003E: Scaremongering, have you read the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022443f23de4cbd464f91833e6c466c98c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238d97014bddbe1c5d480ac3cb7978276\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I think a lot of New Zealanders would be surprised\u2014and I don\u2019t need that yelling across the House, because we\u2019re actually going to debate this in good faith\u2014that there actually is no legislative framework today for Disability Support Services. I think New Zealanders would be surprised about that. The Minister, I think, is doing the right thing here in trying to actually provide clarity and transparency and certainty to the disability community. I think we should actually engage in that spirit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe other point I would make\u2014and it was very disappointing to hear some of the other remarks\u2014this Government actually inherited, I think, an unsustainable situation in the disability sector. It inherited a ministry out of control and not able to control its own spending. This Government has done a number of things to make sure that disabled people and their families get the support they need because it has to be sustainable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to thank the Minister, actually for making a number of changes, actually getting the trust of the disability community to be able to have these discussions, and now she\u2019s bringing forward a piece of legislation to actually strengthen the transparency and their rights. This isn\u2019t a rights discussion; it\u2019s actually about making sure that people are looked after, they do get the care and support they need, and, as the Minister clearly outlined\u2014and let me just say it again: clearly outlined\u2014there is no move towards means testing. She said that very clearly, so let\u2019s not have that repeated again during this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe purpose is, as I said, simple: let\u2019s actually get in place a system and a legislative framework for disability support that we can then build on. The Minister has already said there is more work that needs to be done once this framework is in place, and she has been out and will continue to be out, as other members across the Government are, actually talking to people in the disability community, understanding their needs, and making sure we put the appropriate support in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe select committee process will allow people to have their say. There have obviously been some developments, and the \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EFleming v Attorney-General\u003C/span\u003E Supreme Court case has been referenced today, but that\u2019s only one aspect of this legislation. What is actually being done here is something that can be sustainable for the future. When we don\u2019t take a considered and thoughtful approach to these things, sustainability of systems can get into question. We\u2019ve seen that with ACC. If I look across at the Tasman, at the national disability support service there, a wonderfully set-up scheme to actually try and help people has got out of control and is becoming unsustainable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s actually just engage in this debate in good faith, actually recognise that the Government is actually trying to do something to actually provide certainty to the disability sector and community. That\u2019s why we will be supporting this bill in the first reading. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d92a09db28c44070bbfdcc9f0e6f3cca\u0022 data-id=\u0022399d9b5bde5b4f446b10c7155fcb1e0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d92a09db28c44070bbfdcc9f0e6f3cca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022399d9b5bde5b4f446b10c7155fcb1e0b\u0022\u003EJENNY MARCROFT (NZ First) (15:25)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of New Zealand First in support of the Disability Support Services Bill. I\u2019d just like to acknowledge the disability community. In the 2023 census, 17 percent of people living in New Zealand households were disabled, according to that census. That sort of equates to a really large number of adults: 750,000 adults; 98,000 children. So we\u2019re talking about a very large number of New Zealanders in the disability community. One thing we need to think about is, as the people age\u2014as we all age\u2014there is an increase in disability prevalence, so we need to expect that number of people will grow, as our population ages, and those requiring support services will increase as a result.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Disability Support Services Bill is absolutely necessary, because, as the Minister outlined, there is no clear, strong legislative framework for the Disability Support Services. It\u2019s absolutely crazy that there wasn\u2019t a system in place, and this piece of legislation is fixing that. It\u2019s really important. This is something that the families have asked for to have certainty around, also some consistency. One of the points I think is necessary to reiterate because there is some concern out in the community: this legislation will not change current eligibility, and it does not move towards means testing. So that needs to be stated very clearly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOf course, part of this bill is responding to a Supreme Court case which has created significant fiscal and litigation risks to the New Zealand taxpayer. We will affirm the Minister\u2019s view that policy setting for public funding belongs in Parliament, not in courtrooms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis bill, as has been mentioned already, will provide certainty for families and for disabled people, as the purpose of the Disability Support Services Bill will include making it clear that the Crown is not the employer of family carers. It also defines the purpose of the Disability Support Service as a contribution towards care. This bill also aims to strengthen the system by improving the consistency, the fairness, and the transparency of decision making. A short contribution from me. I now commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022420f72e8bcc84c869a366ff712af8e49\u0022 data-id=\u00223218a8849ac1f55e9fdc8aabba1f5450\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022420f72e8bcc84c869a366ff712af8e49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223218a8849ac1f55e9fdc8aabba1f5450\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Hauraki-Waikato) (15:28)\u003C/span\u003E: \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003ET\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka, otir\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. E t\u016B ana ahau ki te waha i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero m\u0101 Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori i t\u0113nei rangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThank you, Mr Speaker; indeed greetings to us all in the House. I stand to give voice to statements on behalf of the M\u0101ori Party today.\u003C/span\u003E]  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ECaring for wh\u0101nau living with disability is incredibly valuable mahi. Despite multiple inquiries and select committee recommendations, meaningful reform has not occurred. M\u0101ori perspectives are often ignored altogether, and disability systems continue to separate individuals from wh\u0101nau, culture, and identity. \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EMana hau\u0101\u003C/span\u003E affirms the inherent mana, dignity, and rights of disabled people. M\u0101ori experience disability at higher rates than non-M\u0101ori, and face compounded barriers across education, health, employment, housing, and incomes. These barriers are a result of systems designed without M\u0101ori authority, knowledge, or control. For too long, disability policy has treated M\u0101ori as an afterthought\u2014ignoring whakapapa, whanaungatanga, and collective responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis policy will make it more difficult for wh\u0101nau to care for disabled people. Disability advocate Jane has said\u2014I quote\u2014\u201CIt\u2019s cruel \u2026 It has to be the worst piece of legislation I\u2019ve ever seen.\u201D Family carers had been failed by the system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFamily carers are completely isolated. This is not a system that cares about them; this is a system that suddenly worries it might have to pay for disability support services they are providing. There are 40 people with family care - related cases filed with the Employment Relations Authority. This bill will ensure that they do not receive employment benefits for their mahi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThey should be allowed to have their cases heard, but this bill would pull the rug on their only chance at legal remedy. This sets a bad precedent for our mokopuna, that work can only be recognised if you\u2019re party to an employment contract. This follows the same pattern as the Employment Relations Amendment Bill, where the Government ensured that Uber drivers and other contractors can be recognised as employees. This was the result of direct lobbying from Uber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori sees all work as valuable. If a person is taking on the responsibility of the Government, they should receive the same benefit as a Government employee. If we were in power ,we would empower mana hau\u0101. mana hau\u0101 is a about collective disability that is shaped by social, cultural, and systemic environments, where systems are inaccessible, discriminatory, or culturally unsafe. Disability must be amplified. We will establish mana hau\u0101 authority where we will ensure that all new Governments build designs to accommodate all wh\u0101nau. Housing should not be discriminatory; we will ensure that the work of all carers is valued.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn closing, Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori opposes this bill. Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori sees the value of our workers looking after our mana hau\u0101 as essential and most important. Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori opposes this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a8ff6e3602c492880b65258f59645c0\u0022 data-id=\u00223e8e90a86bce561f946ce30219227b62\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a8ff6e3602c492880b65258f59645c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e8e90a86bce561f946ce30219227b62\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK (National\u2014East Coast) (15:32)\u003C/span\u003E: I rise to take this call on the Disability Support Services Bill. The bill establishes foundations and sets a clear framework for how disability support services will operate. It sets out what the system does, its purpose, and how public funding can be used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s important, firstly, to acknowledge all of those in the disability sector, those who work in it, who administer it, and who face the challenges every day in that sector. We are clear that this bill will provide a framework that will make it easier to make the decisions in that prospect. I think the clarity will be good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe bill does not change existing services, funding allocations, or who can receive disability support services, and I think that\u2019s a very important point. It does not change any of that. It also means that eligible disabled people, their wh\u0101nau and carers will continue to receive the support they rely on. That doesn\u2019t change either. The bill makes it clearer what disability support services provides and how it fits with other supports. It confirms that family and wh\u0101nau remain an important source of support alongside the publicly funded services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe know how much disabled people rely on support from disability support services and how important it is that they and their families have certainty that support will continue to be available on a sustainable basis. That\u2019s why this work is important and I look forward to the conversation in the select committee where people will be able to come and have their views heard by the committee, and we will work on it from there. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022 data-id=\u002247bbe9f503f5992199760915006af5b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247bbe9f503f5992199760915006af5b7\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour) (15:33)\u003C/span\u003E: I wish first to acknowledge Peter Humphreys. Thank you for coming today, Peter, and also Christine Fleming, who have worked so hard to get the judgment that the work they did was real work that deserved remuneration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to try to help members opposite to understand why people within the disability communities are so worried by this bill. Let\u2019s start with the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, a UN convention that we\u2019ve signed up to, a UN convention that says that one of the important rights for people with disabilities is to be able to live independently. That\u2019s a very important right for people with disabilities, and yet so often we do not enable that to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to remind members opposite of the very firm saying, which is really important within disability communities, and within other communities\u2014that \u201Cnothing should be done about us, without us doing it ourselves: \u201CNothing about us without us.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPeople with disabilities are not children to be looked after. They are not objects to be done to. People with disabilities are people. They are adults. They are people who want to make decisions about their own lives, and they want to live as independently as possible. The reason so often that people with disabilities can\u2019t do this is because of the social structures we set up around them. This bill totally reinforces one of those structures where it says, in effect, that the in the first instance, a family must care for a person with a disability. Now let\u2019s be clear: families do care for their members. But this imposes a particular obligation on family members. It legislates that that obligation on family members. In effect, it legislates that a person with disabilities may not live independently. That is why people in the disabilities community are very, very worried about this bill.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAnother reason that people with disabilities are very worried about this bill is because of the history of this Government, and to not recognise it is ridiculous. Let\u2019s remember that one of the first actions of this Government was to submit a set of really strong restraints, very strong purchasing guidelines, for individualised funding for people with disabilities. And for two years that remained in place. This Government did it without consultation. It imposed it overnight, and then they have turned around and wondered why people in the disability community are scared and frightened. It is because the pattern of behaviour from that Government does not give people and the disabilities community any reason to trust them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFinally, I want to point to some of the things actually in this bill that are deeply worrying, because it turns out that in clauses 10 and 11 of this bill, the Minister may give binding directions as to how funding should be allocated for people with disabilities. What that means is that\u2019s not sitting here in legislation\u2014the rights that people with disabilities might have; the supports that they might be entitled to. It is at the Minister\u2019s direction. It rests with one person. I want to say again that the disabilities community has no reason to trust this Government. So when people from that community come and say \u201CNothing about us without us\u201D, they mean it, and this Government needs to include them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b52eff5aa2a94fcc88903b73d0443de3\u0022 data-id=\u00228d594cd52680d822bedb45166cff0e4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b52eff5aa2a94fcc88903b73d0443de3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d594cd52680d822bedb45166cff0e4e\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National) (15:38)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve really had enough of the last speaker, Deborah Russell, on this bill. Please just stop the scaremongering. Please just stop using the disabled community as a way to attack this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThis bill provides consistency, provides clarity, and provides support for the people who really need the help. So start reading properly, and understand, and stop scaremongering.  I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232632704a2594ee1b96e617d06beae80\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba9589cec22d0e34bb2f736c106c822f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232632704a2594ee1b96e617d06beae80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba9589cec22d0e34bb2f736c106c822f\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert) (15:39)\u003C/span\u003E: First of all, I want toacknowledge that the people in the gallery will include people impacted by this piece of law, but also a lot of people who are here are waiting for the next piece of legislation that is about move-on orders. I\u2019d just like to draw the inevitable concern that actually we have a Government that is attacking people in a way that is all about not actually backing people who care for others in the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbf435d0a9339b48b7390839c1d25894\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I\u2019m not sure the member is talking about the bill that is before us at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277d01b326ece7849a2472f48e2b3f657\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, you have diverted a wee bit, Helen White, so we\u2019ll come back to the bill. You\u2019ll have an opportunity to speak on the next bill when it happens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232632704a2594ee1b96e617d06beae80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022124e1067507cf767b43e4eba1717c1af\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I want to talk about this bill and its impact on the people that are really of concern today, most heartily. One thing we know is that two people took cases to the court, and they actually had an eight-year process. Those people weren\u2019t alone in the way that they were being treated. They went through that process right to the Supreme Court. Many others, when they saw the success at the Employment Court and then they saw further success at the Supreme Court took similar cases because they were impacted in the same way. They were told, \u201CHold off. We are waiting for this decision to come out before your case is progressed.\u201D, so they didn\u2019t get the opportunity to take their cases. My understanding of this piece of law is that it will extinguish their rights. It does affect a lot of people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to talk about how fundamental the issue that Dr Deborah Russell just raised was. We have a piece of our law already. We have already signed up to a convention that says that people will be treated as independent and that if they\u2019re disabled, they have no less right to live independently. The work that is being done by people to make that possible is something that the State will have to pay for one way or the other. This is a really interesting piece of law in terms of its suggestion that what the Government will be doing is making a contribution rather than actually acknowledging the cost that otherwise would be paid if family members weren\u2019t doing that work. It\u2019s a very interesting and difficult piece of law, and there will be a discussion in a minute over the motion to truncate that period for discussion. I want to make sure that people who are most impacted by this get a chance to have a good look at it and get a chance to weigh up the piece of law to actually talk to whether they think it is what the Minister says. In fact, the Minister\u2014I wrote this down\u2014said that disabled people and their families have been asking for this law. That\u2019s what she said. I\u2019m not sure that that is how a lot of disabled people and their families feel about this law. I think it\u2019s very important that, actually, people impacted get a chance in this House and in this place to have their say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy concern\u2014and I\u2019ve heard it raised by many colleagues\u2014is that there hasn\u2019t been a consultation on this prior. It is going to be extremely important that people weigh in on this important conversation in New Zealand because it\u2019s quite fundamental. It\u2019s fundamental to the role of the State and to the role that the State plays in supporting others and acknowledging the support that people give others, and I think that\u2019s a really important debate, so I am concerned about this particular law coming through, and I am also concerned that it\u2019s coming through in this way. I am concerned about all the cases in the Employment Court, and I was an employment lawyer for 25 years. I can see why the Employment Court found the way it did. It makes sense in terms of the definitions that I\u2019ve worked with. I am concerned when we cut off the court process in that way, because those processes are considered and they\u2019re consistent. They\u2019re often very rationally consistent, and they bring us to places that might be uncomfortable but that we need to actually look at. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b7cff05e64f346e68983b2fdbfba3ad8\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd3f973c4b50f41c1540daf8ee792677\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b7cff05e64f346e68983b2fdbfba3ad8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd3f973c4b50f41c1540daf8ee792677\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote) (15:44)\u003C/span\u003E: To summarise this debate here today, this bill sets the framework for the Disability Support Services function that has been without a framework, and the sector has been calling for one today. The important thing is that nothing changes in the way of support to those that are in the disability sector. Most importantly, this bill provides clarity, and that is what the sector has been calling for\u2014clarity for the function. It\u2019s about consistency, fairness, and transparency, and what is important is financial sustainability, because if you want to look at what unsustainable disability support services look like, go and look at Australia, at the National Disability Insurance Scheme. It\u2019s an absolute mess at the moment. We don\u2019t want that to happen here. This bill goes a long way to helping set the framework. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the Disability Support Services Bill be now read a first time\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224ba9ab77f81f523b59ecea444e585f30\u0022\u003EReferral to Select Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022 data-id=\u0022688efff0d0df02f2247d620db630663a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022688efff0d0df02f2247d620db630663a\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER (15:46)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the Disability Support Services Bill be considered by the Social Services and Community Committee\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Social Services and Community Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225384461cb8092824be4a62b7f7c1e5e2\u0022\u003EInstruction to Select Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u0022e61837ca186688d8f29ae72d577b0016\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e61837ca186688d8f29ae72d577b0016\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment) (15:47)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the Disability Support Services Bill be reported to the House by 13\u00A0August 2026 and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), during any evening on a day in which there has been a sitting of the House, on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 193, 195, and 196\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENearly every speaker in this debate has said how important it is that the disability community\u2014disabled people, their families, and carers\u2014have certainty and consistency. That is why passing this bill before the general election will avoid a long period of uncertainty and will give disabled people and their families clarity about the Disability Support Services (DSS) support and the DSS support system. I want to be very clear that this legislation builds on the 18 months of engagement with the disability support community where, on every occasion, they talk about the fact that transparency is critical\u2014as is consistency, clarity, having a consistent needs assessment no matter where you are in the country as opposed to differing ones in a region.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m concerned about some of the comments that the Opposition have made which are factually inaccurate. I encourage members of the community and of the public to come to the select committee, and if we don\u2019t act promptly, this ongoing uncertainty about DSS will continue, and I do not\u2014I repeat, I do not\u2014want that to undermine confidence in the system. A shorter time frame will also, very importantly, enable us to do the work on the carer-support package, which addresses many of the concerns that family carers have raised for a very, very long time. By working closely with them on this carer-support package, I am very confident that we will be able to have a system that works far better\u2014far better\u2014for family carers and the disabled people they care for. I support this motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227301d5bb7cbfcee71650aea3b2c6efb6\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022 data-id=\u0022694f9e57456ca19ad046f2c3055449ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022694f9e57456ca19ad046f2c3055449ff\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour) (15:49)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Firstly, I will begin by acknowledging that there is a select committee process. There has been a previous process that this House underwent in 2013 in response to another court hearing where changes were passed under urgency, and so I will acknowledge that that is not happening this time and that people will be able to submit to the select committee. That is a good thing. It is disappointing, however, that it is shortened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Minister for Social Development and Employment has laid out the reasons\u2014her rationale\u2014for the shortened report-back period, but it is under four months instead of the full six months that a select committee would generally get. Within that, I urge the Minister to ensure, through the select committee chair, that there will be the full six-week submission period for disabled people and organisations that represent them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI will also just touch on a point that the Minister made in her contribution to this referral debate when she said that there has been 18 months of engagement already with disability communities, but I will point to what many have emailed me to say, which is that that 18 months of consultation was not about this legislative framework. It was about disability support services in general. Those people did not know that the outcome of those engagement sessions was going to be used to develop this bill, and so it does not count and it is disingenuous in that sense to say that it does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Minister has also said that the shortened time frame is so that the Government can work with disability communities and carers, particularly to develop a care and support package. I do support the development of a carer support package. However, we should have had the detail of that to be able to debate where this bill will land in terms of operational detail before we considered this very vague framework that this bill provides. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI will leave my comments about the Minister\u2019s contributions there. I do, however, want to make this point. I have been emailed by someone who doesn\u2019t want to be named, but who has laid out very clearly why it is important that the select committee does take some additional steps to ensure that disability communities are supported to be able to submit to this process. She said this\u2014and I\u2019ll quote, and I\u2019ll go into the detail that she lays out\u2014\u201CThe overarching principle is this: the select committee should not treat accessibility as simply providing NZSL\u201D\u2014New Zealand Sign Language\u2014\u201Cinterpreters and easy-read formats, important as those are. True accessibility means actively going to the organisations and communities where the most marginalised people already are, rather than waiting for them to find their way to the process.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to just step out for the consideration of this Parliament some of those suggestions. I went back to her and asked if she could be a bit more specific in terms of what would be useful for the select committee to consider. She said, \u201CFor example, partner with trusted community connectors. Rather than the select committee writing to individual disabled people,\u201D\u2014which I\u2019ve pointed out would be too onerous for the committee, given the size and the diversity of our disability communities\u2014\u201Cthey could write specifically to kaupapa M\u0101ori services, Pacific health providers, women\u2019s refuges, and community social workers and ask them to actively share information about the submission process with the people that they support and to assist those people to make submissions, if needed.\u201D These are the organisations that already have relationships with those who are often most marginalised, and who may not even hear about the opening of the submission period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u201CCritically, the select committee must be intentional about the types of organisations that it engages with.\u201D Some of the more well-resourced disability sector organisations have already heard about this bill and the need to submit and have the capacity to participate in parliamentary processes, and will do so and should do so. But they don\u2019t always represent the most marginalised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u201CThe committee needs to also seek out organisations who work at the crisis end:\u201D\u2014and this is a good point\u2014\u201Cthose dealing with family harm, emergency housing, food poverty, acute mental health, and child protection.\u201D, because those are the organisations who see what happens when support falls away entirely, and those are the voices that will not show up unless they\u2019re specifically invited and supported to do so. \u201CThe committee should also consider whether there is capacity to be able to fund or resource more supported submission-making\u201D\u2014and that\u2019s the third point that she made\u2014\u201Cbecause many people in this group\u201D\u2014and I would point particularly to those with intellectual disabilities\u2014\u201Cmay not be able to write a submission by themselves and potentially will need some sort of support to be able to do this.\u201D, whether it\u2019s through the likes of the Citizens Advice Bureau or other organisations that already support them, as well. However, all of these organisations are under the pump and will need additional support to be able to undertake this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u201CThe types of submissions that can be made.\u201D I put this out there: I don\u2019t know if this is possible, but I wonder if it\u2019s possible for the select committee to accept other forms of submission other than written submissions, whether it\u2019s through oral submissions via videos, for example, because not everyone can write. \u201CAllowing voice recordings and video submissions of brief informal accounts, rather than long formal submissions should also be considered.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe final point that she makes that I would like to share with the House\u2014because this is one that we often overlook\u2014is that many people are of the opinion that a written submission has to be followed by an appearance in person at select committees. It would be good for the select committee to point out that this is not necessarily the case and that, firstly, written submissions can be made by anybody from anywhere across Aotearoa New Zealand and they don\u2019t have to attend in person if they don\u2019t choose to do so. Also Zoom and teleconferencing options are an option with our Parliament, and they can also provide accessibility through New Zealand Sign Language interpretation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere should also be some hearings that are held at times and in formats that are accessible to carers, because this particular piece of legislation will likely have a significant impact on family carers and on carers more broadly. Those with caring responsibilities have struggled over the last 18 months to show up to the various consultations and engagement sessions that have been undertaken, and so there should be some consideration for how this can be made accessible to them, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI will just end with the final point that she does make. I have also made it, and I will say it again: all of these organisations, all of these charitable support service provision organisations and disabled people\u2019s organisations, disabled people, and carers have been put through huge amounts of consultation of late, and the organisations haven\u2019t had additional funding to be able to lend their voice or their support to those who need to submit. So I will put it to the Government that there should be some additional support to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt is, once again, disappointing that there\u2019s a shortened period. Within that, please ensure that there is a full, six-week period for people to submit. Thank you, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210849eedd5895edc3aa72708546df533\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I take the next call, I\u2019m going to comment that that speech was an absolute benchmark for a shortened report-back referral debate, and I would expect the benchmark to be as high as that first speech was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5bba1747b12b687172890f90a905a5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5bba1747b12b687172890f90a905a5e\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green) (15:57)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I do want to comment on this referral motion because I wanted to first acknowledge the comments from the Minister around the election date. Now, look, I don\u2019t think one\u2019s just wanting to rush a bill at the end of a parliamentary terms genuinely justifies, in my view, having a shortened report-back date process, and I think that if the Government was genuinely confident that they would win the election, we wouldn\u2019t have an issue with having a process carrying on after the election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBut I think that particularly with this bill on disability support services, something that I want to acknowledge is that while the Minister may have said that some disabled people may have been consulted, disabled people are not monolithic, and what that means is that we need to acknowledge that within disabled people, there may be a range of political views and experiences. The initial canvassing of views that the Minister alluded to cannot replace the adequate submission processes that a proper duration of, say, four to six months would have allowed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAnother point that I wanted to make in relation to the referral motion\u2014particularly with the amount of sitting weeks that we have left, and well knowing that this Government has had a tendency to use extended sitting hours and urgency more often than not\u2014is that I am concerned about, at least during the sitting days, the fact that a lot of these submission days will likely be occurring over extremely limited time frames. For example, the Social Services and Community Committee sits on an extended sitting day from 8 a.m. to 9 a.m., and from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m. What that means is that, unlike, say, normal sitting hours, where you have a greater flexibility for people to submit, you\u2019re pushing people to a very, very narrow time slot that they can actually be accommodated into. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, if we look at the demographics most impacted by this bill, which are carers and disabled people, what this means is that we\u2019re putting in additional barriers for participation, and I am concerned that the voices of submitters and their variety of experiences would not be adequately canvassed and that the democratic process that we would expect from a proper select committee process would be, therefore, undermined. I would hope that no matter our views on this bill, we would want to come out of the select committee process, genuinely hand on heart, having said that we\u2019d adequately heard from a big range of disabled people and carers. I just do not have confidence that this will happen. The previous speaker Priyanca Radhakrishnan noted that she hoped that we would have at least a six-week submission period, but that would already be a really long duration in the total amount that we have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, a subsequent point I want to make and a concern I want to raise that has not yet been raised by the previous speaker is the fact that when you have a referral motion with a shortened report-back date, what you also prevent is the back and forth you have with Government officials. Often, in the select committee process, when we hear from submitters, questions may arise from Government or Opposition members to officials. Sometimes, these questions may be complex, and officials may not always have the ability to present answers to the fulsome degree that we deserve by the next meeting date. I think, sometimes, what I\u2019m concerned about is that we\u2019re creating a condition where we\u2019re not getting the satisfactory and detailed answers to complex questions through a shortened process that I think our constituent submitters and our parliamentarians deserve. This is not through officials\u2019 fault, but through the timeline that has been afforded to us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe other concern that I have is that we already saw this week how the Government, for example, didn\u2019t seek leave to pause the vote during a 1 p.m. to 2 p.m. period, which could, indeed, even further undermine the ability for submitters to be heard on bills. We already saw how submitters were affected by this just yesterday, for example\u2014who were unable to present. That\u2019s something that I am concerned about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhile the Minister may have, in her referral motion contributions, talked about the scope of when we can sit outside of sitting dates, etc., I think, let\u2019s make it real: we\u2019ve got Budget week, we\u2019ve got scrutiny week, then we\u2019ve got probably a bunch of extended sitting hours and urgency that will in and of itself limit the ability to actually canvass submitters adequately during those non-sitting days. On a bill like this one, where accessibility and participation is paramount, I would have expected that we would have had a longer period to, for example, explore actually going to where people are\u2014because, yep, people are able to make oral submissions by phone or by Zoom or in person, if they\u2019re lucky; I doubt that many carers or disabled people affected by this bill will have the means or the time to travel all the way to Wellington, so their ability to participate will be limited by, say, Zoom contributions or by phone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think the problem that I have with this referral motion is that it massively limits the ability for the select committee to explore travelling to areas to hear directly face to face with carers and disabled people from across the country in some of our main urban centres, or, for example, to explore going to a rural community where, perhaps, the experiences of carers and disabled people\u2014for example, when it comes to transport needs, etc., or healthcare\u2014may be different. I think that does a disservice to the attempt to genuinely canvass and hear disabled people\u2019s views. So that\u2019s the other component that I want to touch on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFinally, one of the key issues that I also have with this referral motion is that it actually, in my view, undermines the ability for us to work in a cross-partisan manner to find points of agreement. For example, sometimes in the select committee process, submitters\u2014organisations or otherwise\u2014may bring forward recommended amendments. Sometimes it\u2019s really hard to know whether there\u2019s agreement amongst political parties on some of these proposed amendments, whether they come from submitters or from members of the Opposition, or Government backbenchers. The timelines that we often are working with is working in a cross-partisan way to, for example, suggest that these amendments get taken to their respective caucus meetings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhen a shortened report-back date is given to us, it limits the number of caucus meetings the political parties can have to actually seek agreement on the amendments that may be presented by other political parties. What this leads to in this process is one where collaboration is less likely to happen, and, instead, amendments may end up just being presented as an opportunity to make a point, as opposed to genuinely trying to find common ground. I have yet to see incidents in which, for example, an amendment\u2014no matter how worthwhile\u2014is presented on the floor that political parties that haven\u2019t had a chance to actually have a full caucus meeting to discuss it are actually able to get behind those amendments. I think, in my view, that leads to a poorer democratic process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, we\u2019re talking about a bill that has received a huge amount of public attention. A great proportion of our population is disabled, and that means that we have to actually take the process of this bill extremely seriously. I am particularly concerned that\u2014also with the shortage that we have across the country on interpretation services, for example\u2014it may also be hard to genuinely accommodate the needs of deaf people and people who may need additional support to be genuinely accommodated in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, in other bills that we have had in select committees prior that predominantly affect disabled people, sometimes we afford a little bit more than the usual five minutes for individuals to submit to recognise that people may just need a bit of additional time. Now, that is easy to do when you do have a full six months to actually, for example, have a report-back date, because then you\u2019re able to have longer hearing sessions where individuals are able to be heard for, say, six minutes, seven minutes, as opposed to the usual five. That additional minute may be the difference between someone being able to articulate exactly what they need to say, if their disability may just require them to take a little bit more time, and someone feeling like their dignity and their contributions weren\u2019t fully taken on board. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think the referral motion as we have it right now does not leave me with the confidence that that level of flexibility will genuinely be afforded to submitters, because with they really tight time frames that we have, with the use of urgency and extended hours that I\u2019ve already mentioned, I just simply do not see how we could arrive to this. It would be good if the Minister could, for example, give us some assurances, or, perhaps, if the chair of the committee was able to give us some assurances that that was the intent, it would give us a bit more confidence on the genuine intent of hearing disabled people as part of this process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAll in all, the Green Party is lacking confidence on this referral motion. I know my colleagues will be hoping to present some constructive alternatives to this, but I\u2019ll leave it there for now. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022 data-id=\u00229b7e9daf8fdf44299ac0df7c24dbf107\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b7e9daf8fdf44299ac0df7c24dbf107\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour) (16:06)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I want to speak to this referral motion. The Minister gave two reasons in her speech as to why a shortened report-back time was appropriate with the select committee. The first was around certainty and, in particular, certainty before the general election; the second was around the need for this work to be done so that she, her team, and her officials could do some work on the carer support package. I want to speak, mostly, to the first reason, around the certainty, but I do note there is that other aspect to discuss, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI have just one brief note to add on the select committee process. With a three-month short report-back period, which is what we\u2019ve got, typically submissions will be open for three weeks. It\u2019s a very short time for submissions to be made and to come into this House. It\u2019s even more problematic in this case because, as my colleague Priyanca Radhakrishnan has pointed out, the disability community was not aware that this particular measure was coming. This caught them by surprise. It was not what they were working on with the Minister\u2014or so we\u2019ve been told. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat does mean, for people in the disability community, if people are listening, it\u2019s three weeks to get your submission in\u2014or it\u2019s likely to be; the chair of the committee, or the select committee will determine that date, but I would anticipate it would be a maximum of three weeks. Please get those submissions written now, start writing them now, and make sure they get in. For those of you who feel able to do so, do ask to speak to the committee, as well; though that is not necessary\u2014but if you do feel able to do it, that would be a good thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to move on from that because people have canvassed the shortened report-back period quite well. I want to talk, in particular, about the certainty reason and the reason the Minister gave for it, which was with respect to needing certainty around the general election. Now, that\u2019s puzzling. Let me take the House through why that is puzzling. As my colleague Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March pointed out, it does rather imply that the Minister doesn\u2019t think she\u2019s going to be in office after the election; I don\u2019t think that\u2019s what she was really thinking of in that respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe difficulty is that when it comes to allocating funding\u2014and this bill is about allocating funding\u2014the way that we allocate funding in our parliamentary system is through the annual Budget. That\u2019s the primary vehicle for allocating funding. Sometimes, things can be done outside of that through various measures, but we would anticipate that the funding that is to be allocated to Disability Support Services would be allocated in this year\u2019s Budget, which is due on 28 May, or it would be allocated in next year\u2019s Budget, which is not due until May 2027.  Those are two quite different dates, but they are substantially different from the election date\u2014the election is currently forecast to happen on 7 November. When the Minister says that certainty is needed before the general election, that is, at least, puzzling, given the way we allocate funding in our system of Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think the Minister needs to explain why it is that the general election creates uncertainty. The uncertainty, I don\u2019t think, is created by the general election; I think it is created by the fact that funding is allocated in the Budgets, and this piece of legislation, as it tracks through the House, if it is thought to be needed to be in place before the election, well, that just doesn\u2019t seem to create a reason. But perhaps there\u2019s something that we\u2019re going to see in the Budget itself around this\u2014who knows?\u2014but that\u2019s the uncertainty point, not the general election. If the Minister\u2014and the Minister has given the uncertainty created by the general election as a reason for having a shortened report-back date, but, actually, that reason doesn\u2019t really stack up. It\u2019s not a particularly good reason. I think it\u2019s a reason we should be setting aside because it simply doesn\u2019t work. Although, perhaps the Minister might like to clarify that because she did talk in terms of that uncertainty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s another thing that could happen with this bill, as we lead into the general election\u2014the bill is due to be reported back to this House by 13 August, the general election is on 7 November, my guess is\u2014I don\u2019t think we have a date for the House to rise yet\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022762c7030aa0365648ba070b74af2926e\u0022\u003EHon James Meager\u003C/span\u003E: 24 September.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244b2c44599a69303b1d490c61fa18f65\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u201424 September, thank you colleagues. I hadn\u2019t taken as much notice as you; I\u2019m not as concerned about my job as you might be. What it does mean is there\u2019s limited time available in the House for sitting days, so even if the bill is reported back from the select committee on 13 August, from there it still needs a second reading, a committee stage\u2014and we\u2019ve had a bit of experience as to just how long committee stages can go\u2014and a third reading before it becomes law. The interesting bit about this\u2014sitting in here\u2014is that this law enables quite a lot of ministerial discretion. That\u2019s sort of sitting in clauses 10 and 11 of this bill, and some of the factors around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe thing is, again, in the lead up to the election, the Government is still the Government, and it still governs, but the convention is that serious policy decisions are not really taken in the lead-up to the election itself. Those are the sorts of things that should be the matter of political parties\u2019 campaign promises, and so on, but, in actual fact, from a month or two, a couple of months before the election, we move into a \u201Csteady as she goes\u201D sort of state, rather than trying to make significant policy decisions. Again, if the Minister was giving the general election as a reason to get this bill through the House early, that reason doesn\u2019t stack up either because Ministers should not be making major decisions in the month or so, a couple of months before, the election, especially once the House has risen, ahead of the election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, as I said, the Government gets to continue governing. We would expect, you know, our foreign affairs Minister to keep on making foreign affairs statements; we would expect the Prime Minister to continue to be prime ministerial and so on, but not those major decisions. I\u2019m pointing out, again, that the Minister\u2019s reasoning for citing the general election date actually doesn\u2019t stack up. I think we need a better explanation from the Minister about that. Moving on\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf22a832d14a4c99ab5dfd16e24446e5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022661fff0d763e6854551e97d949368249\u0022\u003ERima Nakhle\u003C/span\u003E: Really clutching on straws here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be28456da79542751c95a83917a37422\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Take a call, Rima.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMoving on from that, I think, in terms of something else that the Minister mentioned, she said that we needed to have this in place in order to get her overall framework\u2014to get to one of the building blocks in place, I think, for the carer support package that she was working on. Now, again, I don\u2019t think that quite stacks up either. When is that carer support package going to be announced? Now, if it is going to be pre the election, there\u2019s precious little time for that to happen between this bill being, presumably, passed through the process, and the election. I\u2019ve already talked about the difficulties with those major decisions around the election date. There is no reason, actually, not to have a longer select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, perhaps it could have been a select committee process that left this bill. It  might have popped out of select committee\u2014so maybe a four- or five-month process might have done the trick\u2014before the general election, so that it was available for its second reading and committee stage and third reading after the election. That would have fitted in quite nicely with Budget processes. Then, it seems that that overall carer support package might have been part of Budget 2027. So these are all just not quite adding up as to what is going on here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to point out\u2014and as Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March said\u2014one of the important parts of a select committee process is the opportunity for members of the committee to have a real back and forth with officials. Well, there\u2019s an issue that the members of that select committee are going to want to dig into. Why does the Minister think that this is critical to have it in place before the carer support package can be out? What\u2019s going on in that carer support package? We need to know that before we can talk sensible about that bill in the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFor those reasons, I do not think that this truncated select committee process is appropriate. The Minister hasn\u2019t given adequate reasons for it and there really is no reason not to have a six-month process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232632704a2594ee1b96e617d06beae80\u0022 data-id=\u0022b03a281521d257371f67e61616122760\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232632704a2594ee1b96e617d06beae80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b03a281521d257371f67e61616122760\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert) (16:16)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I lead this committee for Labour, and we have a National Party chair who does a very good job in his role. But I think this is going to be really hard for us, because we had an earlier referral that is a shortened time frame, too, earlier this week, and that was already a concern to me because of the workload that we\u2019ve got and the fact that we do have scrutiny week and it is a little bit unusual in our committee because we have a lot more Ministers in front of us than most committees, because of the nature of that committee. It\u2019s going to be really tough to do a good job on this, and I am concerned about whether we will get to hear from the people we need to hear from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI wanted to talk about an aspect of this bill, which is actually the cost of it. It\u2019s going to be really important that we dig down into the costs associated with this and to look at that in terms of the costs that would be faced anyway. If we\u2019re going to talk about contributions for caregivers in the home who are family members, if those people were not doing that role, then, actually, the State picks up costs in an entirely different way and they\u2019re likely to be more expensive. That kind of analysis, that\u2019s real and it\u2019s going to take a bit of time, and truncating that could be actually really dodgy. We could come up with a completely unintended consequence if we get that wrong. I take my job in that committee absolutely seriously. It\u2019s a very important job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also like to dig down into the logic of this, that there is a philosophical and moral aspect to this, and I\u2019d like to hear from people about that. It is a time of great change. This work I see as fundamental. It\u2019s caregiving. It\u2019s so important in our society. I\u2019d like to hear from those people. I would like to talk about those international obligations, and there needs to be time to do that, because they are serious international obligations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think that one of the things that I heard the Minister talk about was that the election was coming up. It reminded me of some of the work I did before I got here, where we had redundancy processes that just suddenly turned up before the end of the year. People psychologically have this issue where they want to tidy things up, change things, restructure just before the New Year. It\u2019s not necessarily the best idea. It\u2019s not logical. It\u2019s not the way that we should be making decisions about what gets rushed here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EChristmas Day is only a day, New Year is only a day, and election day is only a day. We should be making decisions which allow people to be involved in this process, and we should not rush just because it\u2019s a date that might be important to us in here, because it doesn\u2019t stop the process of things going through legislation, and it\u2019s often good for them to take time. I am concerned that the rush is actually based on something irrational, rather than substantively important, because it isn\u2019t going anywhere\u2014this is a problem that has been around for a while. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI take the point made by Dr Deborah Russell that the care package isn\u2019t something that needs to be held up. I\u2019d quite like to know what that looks like when I\u2019m looking at this piece of legislation. There is no reason why it needs to not happen until this has gone through. In fact, I think I\u2019ll be flying a bit blind in that circumstance if I don\u2019t see that work and what is going on. I am keen to see that work and look at that care package of support, alongside this, because ultimately, we are making pretty important decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI just wanted to talk about a couple of other unintended consequences I am worried about, and I\u2019ll definitely be asking questions about these. Time would be my friend on this. One is the impact on women of something like this, because we have already had the attack on pay equity and now we\u2019ve got a situation where women\u2014women often do the care-giving and are economically disadvantaged because of their care-giving role. That is one of the things I\u2019d like to look at, because we\u2019re talking about people who we\u2019ve had the traditional issue over children, but this is not children; this is disabled family members, and yet I suspect there are applications of this that actually disadvantage women financially, and I\u2019d really like to look at that aspect of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere are issues around savings. We already know women\u2019s savings are much lower because of the care-giving roles they have, and this is one of them. I appreciate that that is not data that is easily available or extractable, and I\u2019ve already had experience on this committee of a rushed process where we simply couldn\u2019t have the discussion that we needed to have before we came back to this House. In fact, we then had one of the critical discussions straight after the matter had come to the House, because we talked to people after because we just simply didn\u2019t have time in the time frame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESo please be realistic about the work we can do. Yes, we can meet in the times when the House is not sitting, etc., but there is only so much you can fit into the day. I also know that we have two members\u2019 bills going through at the moment. We\u2019re trying to expedite them. We\u2019ve got the Deepfake Digital Harm and Exploitation Bill coming to our committee. I\u2019d love to see that one progress right through before we are finished. Again, it\u2019s quite important to me because an election is coming up. It\u2019ll be nice to do it\u2014same thing\u2014and I\u2019m not going to get any sympathy for wanting that through because of that, but these are all important bills that are in train and pushing this date to 13 August is asking something that actually might do harm to the result we end up with, so that is my concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI know that my friend Rachel Boyack had something she very much wants to add, which is quite unique and different, and I don\u2019t want to steal her thunder, so I\u2019ll end my call in the hope that she\u2019ll get the next.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4a1c73fa3f35177ee2c95f19bd15d4c\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to take one more call on this, from Rachel Boyack, just because I want to see what is interesting and different that she is about to say. However, I do now feel like the conversation has been well traversed, so this really needs to be different.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002242067e22c7a349218b3b868f58eda79d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ebb2ba14c08d7a1d3455984499b24771\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242067e22c7a349218b3b868f58eda79d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ebb2ba14c08d7a1d3455984499b24771\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson) (16:24)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, what I can certainly say is that what is not different from this Government is this tendency to introduce bills and only put them through a truncated select committee process. It is becoming a pattern of behaviour from this Government, and it seems to be a pattern of behaviour from a Government that knows it\u2019s about to get turfed out of office, the first time that a National Government will\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b7cff05e64f346e68983b2fdbfba3ad8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e242179f815b2b78422c641e9d797386\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: Stick to the narrow bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242067e22c7a349218b3b868f58eda79d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a653cf60dbb1e1278a2d3cba4088846\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, it\u2019s interesting that we\u2019ve got heckling. It was the Minister\u2019s referral motion itself that actually raised the matter of the election, so the Minister who introduced the referral motion brought that into the debate and so it is appropriate to respond to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EWhat I did want to point out\u2014two points I wish to make. I don\u2019t need to use the full 10 minutes to make these two points, although I\u2019ll see how I go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7c8861d3ee6637acb99e33de6732e34\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If you don\u2019t need to, you shouldn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242067e22c7a349218b3b868f58eda79d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9dbef750206eff0371748787a0f8178\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: The first is around the Minister\u2019s comments around certainty, and I\u2019m going to comment on that, and the second is some elements around the process that actually my colleagues haven\u2019t traversed yet. The first is that the Minister talked about the need for this community to have certainty. We agree with that; however, this is not the approach to take. This community has also asked for consultation. Now, a truncated select committee process of three months, instead of the usual six, does not meet a threshold for consultation for this community. If, as my colleague pointed out, it is a shortened time frame for submissions\u2014three weeks for people with disabilities to put submissions in\u2014it is not enough time for genuine consultation for this community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis community\u2014and the reason I make this point\u2014is some of New Zealand\u2019s most vulnerable people, and the people who support some of New Zealand\u2019s most vulnerable people. Having heard from members of this community, they are exhausted. We have exhausted people with disabilities, we have exhausted members of their families supporting them, and now we are going to ask these people who are literally exhausted from caring for their family members under this Government to only have three weeks in order to be a submission in.  That is not robust, thorough, appropriate consultation from this Minister. So that is my point in relation to her point around certainty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe next point I want to make is around the select committee process. My colleagues all sit on select committees, we all know how these processes work, but there are a couple of specific elements I wanted to raise. One was around the nature of how people put submissions into this Parliament We are all hearing as MPs that the Parliament website is difficult to navigate for people to be able to put submissions in. It is difficult to navigate. There are a lot of fields that you have to complete. You have to get it right otherwise the submission does not go through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EParliament does not accept email submissions. I don\u2019t believe Parliament accepts an email with a voice-type submission. There are a whole series of barriers for people to actually submit to our Parliament. Our Office of the Clerk are under-resourced. They don\u2019t have the tools to develop the website further to enable for that to happen. We are talking about a particular community with particular needs, so the select committee, in my view, needs to work with their clerk to come up with alternative methods. They should accept an email submission from a disabled person or a member of their family. They should accept, perhaps, a video submission from someone with a disability, because for people who have disabilities, submitting through a parliamentary website is not an easy feat. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe second part I wanted to specifically talk about is the process which my colleague the Hon Dr Deborah Russell touched on. Actually, Helen White did also, but I want to take it just a little bit further. Today, in a select committee I sat on, we talked about the importance of\u2014what the members of the public might not understand in this process is that you receive what\u2019s called a departmental report, which is the analysis that comes through from the officials on all the submissions and all of the analysis that has been heard by the committee. Then those officials will go and produce what\u2019s called an \u201CRT\u201D, a revision-tracked version of the bill, so it\u2019s the changes that the committee is recommending to the bill. They need at least two weeks to do that, and if it\u2019s more complex legislation, they need even more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EHow do we fit all these time frames for what will actually be quite a complex piece of legislation into a three-month period? I do want to finish, so I\u2019ll only use half of the time allocated, but, as I said, this Government has a pattern of behaviour. They are repeatedly putting these types of truncated processes in place, and then what happens is the committee goes, \u201COh look, we don\u2019t have enough time to do this.\u201D Funny that! Maybe they should have listened to the Opposition when we had these debates. Then the request is made to the Business Committee to extend the time, and those requests keep coming and coming, because this Government keeps putting legislation through far too fast and trying to undermine what is the democratic process of this House. That six-month process is a fundamental element of the democratic process of this House. This is the people\u2019s House; it is not our House, and a significant part of the process that is followed is that consultation phase through the select committee process. This Government does not want to hear properly from the voices of the people who are affected by this bill. We will not be supporting the referral motion from this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022694c3cef004e40d78a26712dce80070d\u0022 data-id=\u0022142357d30c4afc40c73ce4dddcaaf301\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022694c3cef004e40d78a26712dce80070d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022142357d30c4afc40c73ce4dddcaaf301\u0022\u003ESUZE REDMAYNE (Junior Whip\u2014National) (16:30)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat debate on this question now close\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat debate on this question now close\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the Disability Support Services Bill be reported to the House by 13 August 2026 and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), during any evening on a day in which there has been a sitting of the House, on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 193, 195, and 196\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225b064c370d6c074c309e7cecb264770a\u0022\u003ESummary Offences (Move-on Orders) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220f38d8a2708389dbc90ce1904d89acd4\u0022\u003ELegislative Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u0022a69b12dacc91a497fcfd1ddc45821967\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a69b12dacc91a497fcfd1ddc45821967\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice) (16:32)\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to present a legislative statement on the Summary Offences (Move-on Orders) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c9cb478a2c00042a8483a53e519ec1c\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought for that course of action. Is there any objection? There is none. That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222e0289fc47860959a23c9e157afe27e9\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5359ea085e3557d32bec384a3d85848\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5359ea085e3557d32bec384a3d85848\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice) (16:32)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the Summary Offences (Move-on Orders) Amendment Bill be now read a first time\u003C/span\u003E. I nominate the Justice Committee to consider the bill. At the appropriate time, I intend to move that the bill be reported to the House by 3 September 2026 and that the committee have the authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), during any evening on a day in which there has been a sitting of the House, on a Friday in a week in which there\u2019s been a sitting of the House, and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 193, 195, and 196.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOur Government\u2019s committed to fixing the basics in law and order and building a future where everyone feels safe to visit, work in, and live in our central cities. Our streets and our town centres have enjoyed unprecedented levels of disruption in recent years. Many people no longer want to be there. Businesses, residents, and visitors are paying the price. You\u2019d be hard pressed to find anybody who lives in, works in, or visits our city centres who hasn\u2019t witnessed disorderly behaviour, and that\u2019s why so many people in the central city businesses support move-on orders as an option for police. Many are trying to just make a living. They have to face disruptive people camped outside their store day in and day out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe currently have many tools to help those who are in need, including access to one of the most generous welfare systems in the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022083a816abbb847f0a99aff178b1bbba2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab9f16505b8c4eeb725b91b2cc4f2467\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Oh my goodness!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a307e48eb377e0fa7389aff5bb0bcc01\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Among this\u2014well, it is. Under this Government alone, we\u2019ve also funded 300 additional Housing First homes targeted on rough sleepers. We\u2019ve released private market homes to enable immediate placements. We\u2019re provided $10 million in additional funding for proven front-line services. We\u2019ve expanded outreach and wraparound support in major urban centres. We\u2019ve deployed a Ministry of Social Development tactical team to directly engage and house rough sleepers. All of those things we have done, so we\u2019ve got many tools available to help those fellow New Zealanders who are genuinely in need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat we don\u2019t have is many tools to deal with disorderly behaviour in our town squares, and it means that many disruptive, distressing, and potentially harmful acts can occur before police officers have any means of intervention. This legislation changes that. It\u2019s often said, \u201COh, well, what about your empathy for those who are in genuine need?\u201D, and I\u2019d just say this: my empathy lies particularly with those New Zealanders who have put their life savings into a small business, who get up every day to do their business to provide for their family and for their community and for their customers, and that they find a number of people lined up outside their businesses abusing those who come and go and making it difficult for them to succeed and to live and to provide for their families. That\u2019s where my empathy lies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s much said about this legislation. Let me set the record straight. The Government has no policy to criminalise homelessness. What we do have is a policy to give the police the power to issue move-on orders to people displaying disorderly behaviour in public places, and only people who refuse to follow those orders will face prosecution. The bill amends the Summary Offences Act to create a power for police to issue move-on orders to manage low-level disorderly behaviour taking place in public places and prevent escalation. It enables front-line officers\u2014[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229f9f5cb159099583a48fb092b13e430\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me, we\u2019re not going to have people shouting at each other across the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebae47bab2ed635c7d828dee0b850575\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to issue move-on orders for a range of behaviours including being disorderly, intimidating, threatening, or disruptive; obstructing entry to a trade or business; breaching the peace; begging; rough sleeping; or activities that indicate an intent to inhabit a public place. Importantly, move-on orders apply to a behaviour that\u2019s below the criminal threshold or to low-level criminal behaviour that relates to public disorder. Move-on orders provide an immediate and effective tool for police to de-escalate situations and to disrupt concerning behaviour as it\u2019s happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe bill provides that move-on orders can be issued to people aged 14 years or older, people engaging in the stated behaviours, who will be required to leave the area and not return for up to 24 hours. The people that receive a move-on order will be required to move a reasonable distance away from the area as specified by the constable. Naturally, every situation will be different. Some people may require support services; some may not. Police have the expertise to determine what support is required, if any; they do this every day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPeople are also free to use public spaces in a range of ways, and I recognise the need for some activities to be exempt from this. The bill specifies that move-on orders do not apply to people who are lawfully protesting or conducting charitable or not-for-profit fundraising.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders are fair-minded people, and our culture is one that seeks to help those who are in need, but that does not mean that we should accept that our city centres, our town squares, particularly our showcase tourist spots, become places of intimidation and dysfunction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESince day one, we\u2019ve worked tirelessly to restore real consequences for crime and to place victims back at the heart of the justice system. Just briefly, I\u2019ll just remind you: we\u2019ve reformed the sentencing regime so that those who cause most harm are given stronger consequences. We\u2019ve given the police effective tools to deal with gangs. We\u2019ve stopped taxpayer funding for the proliferation of cultural reports. We\u2019ve given victims of sexual assaults the power to determine if offenders are granted permanent name suppression. We\u2019ve restored three strikes, and we\u2019ve criminalised stalking, which is actually taking effect next week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe good news is that we\u2019re making progress. Our focus is on reducing the number of victims of crime, and the number of victims of serious violent crime is now 49,000 fewer than when we came into Government. But the work is far from over, and this is one area that still requires attention\u2014urgent attention\u2014and that is disorderly behaviour on our town squares and in our streets. So our focus is ensuring that we reclaim those streets and those town centres for the enjoyment of people who live there, who work there, and who visit there. On that basis, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221b2a2ce3aa6022cae83f0364b88c526\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022083a816abbb847f0a99aff178b1bbba2\u0022 data-id=\u0022310dd830f737ad9c4212ef52e8a14031\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022083a816abbb847f0a99aff178b1bbba2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022310dd830f737ad9c4212ef52e8a14031\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour) (16:39)\u003C/span\u003E: We will not be supporting this bill, and I\u2019m going to go into great detail as to why. It\u2019s very difficult to listen to the Minister speak to this bill and promote this bill, particularly given we have had the Ministry of Justice saying that there was no evidence that move-on orders would reduce crime, we have had the Police come out opposed to criminalising rough sleeping, and we have had Treasury state very clearly that the costs of this would outweigh the benefits. Why would the Government, when presented with all of this advice and evidence against what they are doing, still move ahead with their move-on orders? It is purely ideological, and it is sad that this is the state of the Government that we have at the moment leading the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EToday, we had Paul Goldsmith stand up and talk about the fact that we have the most generous welfare system, as if all the poor people who are living on welfare are wealthy or doing well and they should be grateful. Earlier today, I saw that Nicola Willis was talking about those being in social housing having won Lotto, as if being poor and having to rely on social welfare or social housing is a Lotto win.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat is this Government up to? It is crazy. It\u2019s crazy that Paul Goldsmith would stand here today and talk about how these move-on orders are about addressing disorderly behaviour when two of the categories that people can be moved on for are simply being homeless and begging. Homelessness and begging, according to the definition of that Minister, is disorderly behaviour and requires the attention of the justice system. The only injustice to those people being homeless is the fact that they are homeless and they are living in poverty. They are not causing any injustice against Minister Paul Goldsmith and general members of the public. Is it nice for us and our wh\u0101nau to be walking in public places and to see homelessness in real life at our shopping malls and in our CBD? No. It\u2019s not nice, and it\u2019s hard when you have to explain it to your kids, but it\u2019s even worse for the people that are actually living as homeless people because they have nowhere to lie down and no roof over their heads at night-time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat really saddens me and frustrates me is how we have got here. The social services in Auckland have been very clear with the Government. They have seen increased homelessness as a result of that Government\u2019s policies. The Government decided to restrict the number of people who could get access to emergency accommodation, and, now, we have the City Mission and other social services saying that is why there\u2019s more people on the street. That Government decided to cut the public housing build that was under way from the previous Government when we were in charge. Then we wonder why we don\u2019t have the social housing for those people that need it. They sing their own praises by standing there and saying that they\u2019ve invested in 207 additional Housing First places, when they\u2019ve been told really clearly that there are 940 people that are homeless.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThen, what do they do when their policies fail New Zealanders for housing? They go and they criminalise those that are homeless. Do not talk to us about this being disorderly behaviour, and, yes, in here, it says that anyone that poses a threat is going to be asked to move on. But you have made the conscious decision to include in this legislation people who are homeless or are begging, and then you stand up in this House and you say you\u2019re not criminalising, despite the fact that if they don\u2019t move on, they can be fined or they can be sentenced. Please don\u2019t try and tell us on the side of the House that we are wrong. We know exactly what we\u2019re reading. It is wrong. The Government is wrong to do it, and we will not be supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022 data-id=\u0022312728591507919c8a4597ec5c57cedd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022312728591507919c8a4597ec5c57cedd\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central) (16:44)\u003C/span\u003E: How dare the Minister of Justice get up and tell the House, not just today but yesterday as well, that this is not criminalising homelessness and that if they comply and go home, they\u2019re not going to be charged. The Minister realises they don\u2019t have a home, right? Where exactly are they supposed to move on to? Should they go to your house? Don\u2019t mislead the public by saying that this isn\u2019t exactly what it is. The New Zealand public is smart enough to understand exactly what it is, and the Minister knows exactly what it is too. When he was an Auckland city councillor 10 years ago\u2014or whenever it was\u2014he was trying to pass a by-law that made homelessness criminal, and when that didn\u2019t work, he moved up to Government and is trying it again, but, this time, it affects people as young as 14. Where exactly are these kids meant to go? Would you like them to go sleep in a bush? Would you like them to go and sleep under a bridge? They have nowhere to go. They have no parents, they have no responsible adults, and, now, they will be caught up in the justice system for the rest of their life. How dare the Minister get up and say that they care about victims, that they care about intimidation, and that they care about safety in the very same week they cut funding to front-line sexual violence prevention organisations, who work with people who have been raped and sexually assaulted. They don\u2019t care about safety, and they don\u2019t care about victims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat exactly is intimidation anyway? Is that going to be a little brown kid wearing a hoodie who someone walking into town sees and feels intimidated by because they\u2019re not supposed to be there? When, in our justice system, could you punish someone before they\u2019ve even broken the law because someone looks at them and makes an assessment that they are probably going to cause harm? You can\u2019t do that. That\u2019s exactly why there is a report that\u2019s come out from the Attorney-General, saying that this bill contradicts people\u2019s human rights. I don\u2019t see the ACT Party, the party of freedom over there, standing up for all New Zealanders\u2019 freedom of movement, expression, or speech, when that is exactly what this bill contravenes. I bet they\u2019re going to stand up and support this bill as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis gallery, right now, is filled with people who know more about homelessness and how to actually deal with it than the Government does. These are people who are actually on the front line, who do the outreach, and who build up the trust of people who are rough sleeping and actually house them. I don\u2019t know if the Minister ever listens to what these organisations say, but it is far cheaper and more humane to house people. It costs $200,000 to put someone in prison for a year. The Minister knows that. It is far cheaper to house them and to give them the mental health and drug addiction support that they desperately need. These are people who have fallen through the cracks of every single system, and the organisations that are there, ready to help them, are not getting the financial assistance that they need to do so. They\u2019re not asking the Government to end homelessness overnight; they\u2019re asking the Government to financially support the people who know how to end homelessness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis bill, move-on orders, will not end homelessness. It is more expensive, and it is more cruel. Even the Police do not support what you\u2019re trying to do. The Police do not support criminalising homelessness. There were other options put in front of the Minister that didn\u2019t involve locking up and giving a $2,000 fine to people who have got nothing. Even the Police, the people who are expected to enforce these move-on orders, don\u2019t support what the Government is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s remember that homeless people are in fact the most unsafe people on the street. They are the most at risk. Let\u2019s not forget that, and let\u2019s not forget why homelessness has increased in the first place. Homelessness has shot up because the Government decided to restrict access to emergency housing. Homelessness has gone up because the Government has used all of their power and resources to reinstate no-cause evictions and to cancel the building of hundreds, if not thousands, of public homes. That is why there is homelessness. It\u2019s a cruel injustice to arrest and move on people, but especially with those 14- to 18-year-olds, it\u2019s disgusting. Then, today, announcing that you\u2019ll be making it more expensive to live in public housing and easier to kick people out of public housing. This gallery in here right now is ashamed of what this Government is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220838e5f9bac748d2a59aea595e5226a0\u0022 data-id=\u0022ecf718bae3096f81d0e5bad962f37d2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220838e5f9bac748d2a59aea595e5226a0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ecf718bae3096f81d0e5bad962f37d2d\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT) (16:50)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker\u2014[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EApplause from gallery\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c65c00eccbfba8ec11dd25f44ef0b146\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just remind the gallery that the gallery members are here to listen, and so we are now disrupting the speeches by that noise. Just please respect the process that we are going through. I\u2019ve called Simon Court. We will start again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220838e5f9bac748d2a59aea595e5226a0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022967f6a4ed96bcb28e7cfa2b6f40d8aa3\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. What you\u2019ve heard from Labour and the Greens is an exercise in the most disgusting act of political gaslighting that I\u2019ve heard in my six years in Parliament. This bill is intended to ensure that police are adequately equipped to address public disorder\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b483c5447f5b61d39f92d915009c895\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: And what did they say?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220838e5f9bac748d2a59aea595e5226a0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e61ed6d875b5edc4e3f760c5e1cb0c38\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014increase the public\u2019s sense of safety, Tamatha Paul, and support urban centres and economies. They\u2019re acting\u2014Labour and the Greens\u2014like the experiences of small shop owners and the experiences of commuters and people who live in our urban centres and who experience some of the most appalling behaviours, disruptive behaviours, which this bill seeks to address, are not real. You are denying the lived reality of young people who I\u2019ve worked with in the central city in K Road and other businesses who told me they were afraid to come to work until it was light because of the intimidation and fear they felt from people who they could identify as being regularly occupying public spaces. You\u2019re denying the lived reality of people who live\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4be5e77e66b25a6ddc118abc4154d34\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The Speaker is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220838e5f9bac748d2a59aea595e5226a0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3882711ee664f811e02fe8cf216edb2\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the Greens and Labour are denying the reality of people who choose to live in our urban centres, where, with all the enormous investments in infrastructure like the City Rail Link in Auckland, we want people to come and live. So to be able to make those places and spaces feel safe and welcoming and encouraging for those who we want to enjoy our cities is part of what we\u2019re doing here today. It is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b53a921d2201fdaecf0fb3b008c2f44f\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: All good. Just house them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220838e5f9bac748d2a59aea595e5226a0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6614a0fff3eb28a4fc5bcb876ddb24f\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Look, let\u2019s recognise that many of the people who are on our streets and who are regulars on our streets can be housed but sometimes with great difficulty because of their incredibly complex needs. We should never, ever resile from that. We know that this requires a great deal of effort from Government, local government, social agencies, and NGOs, and we should always be prepared to support these people to find safe places to live, to get help for mental health and addiction issues\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2ec0adcd9fae1295baa76b5ec7f4470\u0022\u003ESteve Abel\u003C/span\u003E: Why aren\u2019t you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220838e5f9bac748d2a59aea595e5226a0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c12a626b984df6efed91f4dd4213b93\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and to help them. For Steve Abel to ask why we aren\u2019t assumes nothing\u2019s been done, and that is not the case. There are many agencies involved in engaging with people who have tough lives and who may, for no fault of their own or for some poor decisions, have ended up on the streets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe need to be able to help them, but we should not pretend in any way that providing police with the power to say, \u201CHey, look, you can\u2019t sleep in the shopkeeper\u2019s doorway, because they can\u2019t get into their premises with you out here.\u201D, to individuals who are hanging outside a public transport facility calling out to passers-by or, what I\u2019ve seen, walking in the side streets of K Road\u2014where my construction project officers were starting early in the morning\u2014people half-clothed who had defecated in doorways, and those are the actual lived experiences for people I work with, particularly for young staff, graduates, and interns coming into construction businesses. It puts them off\u2014it doesn\u2019t just put them off; it makes them doubt whether Government, councils, and police actually care about their safety. I can tell all of those people who are in the gallery here tonight and who might be watching or listening at home that Governments and councils and police do care, but they do need these additional powers in order to be able to move these people on, direct them to get help, and not to tolerate\u2014tolerate\u2014the kind of behaviours that these people are showing now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, ACT also recognises that there are issues that the Attorney-General has raised about the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, and that is why it is important that this bill is referred to the Justice Committee. The Justice Committee has a great deal of experience in exploring these New Zealand Bill of Rights Act issues and resolving them. I look forward to this bill going to the Justice Committee and for that committee to report back to the House on how to resolve some of these critical issues, particularly when it comes to freedom of speech and association. They are important ACT values, and they\u2019re important to this coalition Government. With that, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022 data-id=\u002215c6fa19e5b512026ca0708a98358f57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215c6fa19e5b512026ca0708a98358f57\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Police) (16:55)\u003C/span\u003E: I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to speak in support of the Summary Offences (Move-on Orders) Amendment Bill. Unlike some across the other side of this House, New Zealand First knows what quality police officers patrol our streets and the great decision makers they are in enforcing law. I am not going to be performative and decry that this is a homeless bill. That is not what this bill is about. This bill is about providing powers to intervene to prevent a certain type of conduct and behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m the Minister for Seniors. I understand how important it is for older people to feel connected and engaged in their communities and how important it is that they can feel like they\u2019re part of the cities they live in. They have the right, just as everyone does, to be able to enjoy those inner-city spaces. That is exactly what this bill is doing. It is returning our streets to the communities that own them, not allowing us to be intimidated and to be frightened just for being in our own cities. This is not a homelessness attack; this is an attack on certain types of conduct that intimidate and refuse to allow our cities to be free and open spaces for those who belong to those towns to enjoy, for those that work in the cities, for those that commute, and for those that just want to be in the cities and enjoy those spaces.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First knows the quality of our police force. They know that this is not uncontrolled powers. This is about having a conversation with people and telling them to move on and that their conduct is not appropriate. If they refuse to move on, if they refuse to provide their details, and if they refuse to comply, then it is their choice to have the situation escalated by the powers that this bill presents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c65b89ae057e18af62aae9faeb8b3c8e\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019ve got no home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242423c1b395c66b201e39ffa90160538\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: This is not about telling you to go home, as the member from the Green Party suggests; this is about not being in a place that is causing intimidation to the public. That is exactly what it is. Those who like to live in this fantasy world and think we don\u2019t know what it\u2019s like out there; I live in South Auckland. I know exactly the situations we\u2019re trying to deal with. I know the need to ensure that our communities are connected, engaged, and supported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI am the Minister for Seniors, and I speak to the older people who feel that they can no longer use their inner-city centres and who feel intimidated, so this is about a power that allows the police to intervene, allows the police to do something, rather than wait for criminal offences to occur, and to pre-emptively take action to de-escalate. That is exactly what this bill is producing, and that is why we fully commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b11bafcf5b5427480393ffeef4fe6e8\u0022 data-id=\u00223e373caf449c1e74e5e11bbe1457d629\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b11bafcf5b5427480393ffeef4fe6e8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e373caf449c1e74e5e11bbe1457d629\u0022\u003EORIINI KAIPARA (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014T\u0101maki Makaurau) (16:58)\u003C/span\u003E: I give rise to the voices of those silenced across my rohe of T\u0101maki Makaurau, in particular the 940 people that we know of who are without warm, dry, safe, and stable homes. I stand to speak to a bill that Minister Goldsmith himself said just a couple of hours ago during question time, in this very House, criminalises a refusal to move on. That\u2019s exactly what makes this legislation absolutely flawed. It doesn\u2019t address homelessness; it criminalises it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not debating this bill as if it concerns people I\u2019ve not met. I know the faces of those it targets. I\u2019ve sat with them on Queen Street. I\u2019ve shared kai with them at Mood Cafe on Karangahape Road. I\u2019ve listened to their stories alongside the M\u0101ori Wardens of Matarora by the downtown car park. I keep connected with our rangatahi who were once homeless but are now thriving under the manaakitanga of organisations like Manaaki Rangatahi and M\u0101 Te Huruhuru. I know these people because they are my electorate, my community, my wh\u0101nau. The truth is this: most of the people sleeping rough in T\u0101maki Makaurau are M\u0101ori\u2014they are M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis bill is mean spirited. It\u2019s short sighted. It treats homelessness as a matter of compliance rather than a matter of survival. It assumes that if you threaten people with $2,000 fines and the rest\u2014ha!\u2014they\u2019ll simply disappear. But people don\u2019t disappear because Parliament tells them to; they move because they have somewhere safe to go. Right now, too many of our people do not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe cost of living is pushing more wh\u0101nau into crisis. Rents are rising. Food prices are crazy. Power bills are rising. Everything is rising, except for incomes. When people can\u2019t afford to live, they lose their homes; when they lose their homes, they end up in the street, or they end up in overcrowded situations, which impacts a lot of Pasifika and M\u0101ori families right across this motu. That is the reality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhen this Government cuts emergency housing funding, it doesn\u2019t reduce homelessness; it reduces support, it reduces the safety that it craves so much and it reduces the chance for people to get back on their feet. Homelessness is not only about the absence of housing; it\u2019s also about the absence of investment needed to turn houses into homes. It\u2019s about the lack of wraparound support, mental health care, addiction services, and culturally grounded pathways that restore stability and dignity. Homelessness is complex and it requires more than a roof.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe also cannot fix what we cannot measure. Aotearoa still doesn\u2019t have actual comprehensive data on homelessness. We don\u2019t know the true scale of this crisis. We rely on partial counts and overstretched front-line providers. How can we legislate effectively when we don\u2019t even know how many people really are affected?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, our movement, believes in real solutions that last for generations and not just for three years. We believe that everyone\u2014everyone\u2014in Aotearoa should be fed, should be housed, and should have enough income to live meaningful lives. That\u2019s why we support making the minimum wage a living wage, that is why we support removing GST from kai so that wh\u0101nau can afford to eat, and that is why we believe the 112,000 empty homes across this country should be made available to those who need the homes right now. We will never end homelessness, or even poverty, by punishing people. Our movement is about being hard on healing, rather than being hard on crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere is a real solution sitting right here in this Parliament, it is called the Youth Homelessness Prevention Bill. That is the bill I introduced in the first 70 days of my term here as an MP, a bill that this Government has ignored, a bill that focuses on early intervention, on enacting the duty to assist across all agencies, and on coordinated support that puts our people first. The system is continuing to fail us and our people. It is not a symbolic gesture, this bill; it\u2019s a practical, evidence-based pathway to ending homelessness, not just managing it, not just shifting it out of sight, but ending it once and for all. It\u2019s a long-term solution grounded in dignity, community, and the lived realities of our rangatahi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOur rangatahi need better rangatira than what we have in this Whare right now. I look you straight in the eye and I tell you that our people need to register to vote this year. That is the only way we can make a great impact right now. Vote this Government out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022 data-id=\u0022db1ff85f55d797f972098f47645f2cb5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db1ff85f55d797f972098f47645f2cb5\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui) (17:03)\u003C/span\u003E: I say to the Opposition, read my lips: the Government is not criminalising homelessness. You see, the problem that the Opposition has is that they can\u2019t do basic arithmetic: one plus one doesn\u2019t equal four.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022016fd244f45b3ed3a75da14deff675cc\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: You have 25 homes\u201425 homes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6fc178eeee034d06070682a2e016d6b\u0022\u003ECARL BATES\u003C/span\u003E: You know what? Tomorrow morning, you come down to the City Mission with me and actually do some mahi and help raise the money from the people who pay the taxes to make this country work and provide the support that we need to be able to deliver the social services we need to deliver in this country. You come down, 7.30 tomorrow morning, City Mission in Whanganui, and let\u2019s raise the funds\u2014not you, but them, Madam Speaker\u2014and let\u2019s actually do the work that helps, and not create unnecessary scaremongering about what this bill does. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022 data-id=\u002294c06895570044b22e6d6e82ea9a9fff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294c06895570044b22e6d6e82ea9a9fff\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour) (17:04)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. This is a terrible bill. It goes much too far in addressing what everyone would acknowledge is sometimes a problem, which is, obviously, something that is very difficult within our cities, which is when we see antisocial behaviour. That is the problem that the Government says that they are trying to address.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, this bill doesn\u2019t address antisocial behaviour; it goes further than that and it criminalises\u2014and I can point members to the exact clause, which is new section 8F(2), inserted by clause 5 of the bill, which says that if you breach a move-on order, you can go to prison. How you breach a move-on order is simply by being homeless and staying in one place\u2014being homeless, begging, asking for food: these are reasons for people to be issued a move-on order under this bill, and this bill is a terrible reflection on our society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere are so many people who oppose this bill\u2014not just members of the Opposition. We have the Government\u2019s own Attorney-General stating that this bill is inconsistent with two important rights under the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act: the freedom of expression and the freedom of movement. I have to say, it is very disappointing to hear from what was once a libertarian party standing up and saying that your freedom of movement can only be where we say it can be in public places. It is shameful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe had the Ministry of Justice saying there is no evidence that move-on orders would reduce crime. We had the Treasury saying the costs of implementing move-on orders would outweigh the benefits. We had the Ministry of Urban Development stating the bill has the potential to cause further harm to people experiencing homelessness. We have H\u0101pai te Hauora stating that this bill will not reduce homelessness, but it will shift the problem without addressing why people are there in the first place. We have the New Zealand Criminal Bar Association stating that it is shocked that the Government would attack what little dignity the homeless community has left at a time when emergency housing is cut and State housing is at its least accessible. We have Lifewise saying that we have more than 900 individuals currently sleeping rough, and these measures fail to address the underlying causes of homelessness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ERather than offering meaningful solutions, this bill simply moves vulnerable people from one area to another. And, yes, it criminalises homelessness. This bill is an absolute shame on this society. I ask those opposite: how do we justify our response as a society to seeing a homeless 14-year-old on the street and knowing that they are homeless, issuing them with a move-on order? A 14-year-old is a child. They are children. We cannot have our first response to seeing a homeless child be to hand them a piece of paper, potentially detain them\u2014they\u2019re also allowed to be detained under this bill\u2014and then issuing them with a move-on order, with a fine, and potentially imprisonment under this Act, if they don\u2019t comply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis goes much further than dealing with the antisocial behaviour that those on the other side of the House have identified. It goes much further than that because it does put in summary offences which can turn into imprisonment for begging and for rough sleeping. The definition of \u201Cbegging\u201D is really important. The definition of \u201Cbegging\u201D in this bill is asking for food. Our response to someone asking for food, to being hungry, under this Government, is to issue them with a move-on order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt is often said that society should be judged by the way we treat our most vulnerable, and this is a shameful way to treat our most vulnerable. One of my proudest moments of being an Aucklander was when I went to the opening of Homeground. Those types of solutions that actually provide a community response to homelessness are what the Government should be investing in. They shouldn\u2019t be criminalising people who are homeless. They shouldn\u2019t be issuing move-on orders to 14-year-olds. They shouldn\u2019t be issuing move-on orders to people who are simply hungry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cf22a832d14a4c99ab5dfd16e24446e5\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1ecc24faa2bca18355bd4e60c9f160f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf22a832d14a4c99ab5dfd16e24446e5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1ecc24faa2bca18355bd4e60c9f160f\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini) (17:09)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve spoken about what causes homelessness. I\u2019ve worked in our family business that deals with people that are either homeless or borderline homeless, an emergency and transitional housing facility, so I\u2019ve seen over the years what causes homelessness: unaddressed mental health issues. I\u2019m proud of the fact that we\u2019ve got Minister Matt Doocey, the first mental health Minister ever to address mental health issues. Drug and alcohol addictions cause homelessness. Being sucked into the vortex of a miserable, awful life because of being sexually or violently assaulted\u2014that causes homelessness. Becoming disenfranchised with wh\u0101nau\u2014and, yes, your iwi as well\u2014causes homelessness. Someone on the other side of the House said that this bill is not going to solve homelessness. It\u2019s not intended to solve homelessness, but I\u2019ll tell you what will solve homelessness: addressing mental health issues in our country; addressing a lack of proper education, which we are doing; going after gangs for the brokenness that they cause amongst families; and, yes, growing our country so that we can give people a hand up, not a hand down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EWe are not criminalising children. I\u2019ll never ever forget when two police officers told me about two young children they had to pick up. These children begged, \u201CPlease don\u2019t take me home.\u201D because they were scared of being bashed by their parents. We are simply saying we need to help people to get to the proper care they need to get to. I commend this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022 data-id=\u0022e83b7ed2883fb73137ce674d67d7560f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e83b7ed2883fb73137ce674d67d7560f\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour) (17:11)\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely shameful. I stand not just as a Labour MP but as a Kiwi who is disgusted\u2014disgusted\u2014by this terrible law, disgusted by this other lot on the other side of the House. This Parliament\u2014and I\u2019m glad all our communities are here\u2014has an obligation to look after the weak, to look after the vulnerable. But you get this lot over here. This one should be ashamed to listen to this type of k\u014Drero coming today. Look after our people. Look after our community, the vulnerable. This Government has breached that obligation\u2014they have breached that obligation. It is shameful, disgusting stuff we\u2019re getting from this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBut we should probably congratulate Minister Goldsmith over here for finally getting his chance to finally kick the homeless. Back in 2008, the Minister was an Auckland city councillor and on Radio New Zealand, he publicly pushed for stronger powers to remove the homeless and vagrants from central Auckland. In fact, Radio New Zealand reported at the time that the former Minister wanted officials to investigate how homeless people could be removed from the central city area and did not rule out arrests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWell, he got his wish. Almost 20 years later, Minister Goldsmith finally gets something done, and it\u2019s bashing the vulnerable. Congratulations, Minister Goldsmith; well done. What a political achievement. Hold on to anger towards the poor long enough and you too can be a National Cabinet Minister\u2014no doubt about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EEvery single organisation that works with the homeless has warned this Government that their policy would create homelessness, but what do they do? They carry on with this law. They don\u2019t accept that it\u2019s their emergency stinking housing policy that has created the mess. We all know, except them. They don\u2019t want to know. Every single organisation is saying that all they want to do is hide the social damage. Why is this Government doing this? What drives these people? That\u2019s what we are saying today. Why move it along and hide their shameful harvest of poverty from our streets because the homeless embarrass them in front of their cruise ships? That\u2019s the reality. Only this Government could look at people sleeping on the streets and decide that the real problem is their visibility, not the poverty that put them there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220838e5f9bac748d2a59aea595e5226a0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022347e3eec8ee778e4828ceba2bde9c32d\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Absolute nonsense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286c1855ede78641acdc15771e54674f1\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t solve homelessness, \u201CMr ACT person\u201D, by criminalising it. Why can\u2019t they get it through their thick heads? It\u2019s beyond me. You solve the problem, Government, by building homes. You\u2019ve built no homes. You\u2019ve built nothing\u2014built nothing. Kicking people off the streets without giving them somewhere to go isn\u2019t leadership; it\u2019s just moving misery out of your sight. That\u2019s all you\u2019re doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ELook, we\u2019re sympathetic to the long-suffering business owners just trying to earn a living. We get that and we are empathetic. We understand what\u2019s happening there. We\u2019ve made statements. We support them. We want our small-business owners to succeed, but moving-on powers merely address the symptom of poverty, not its cause. Unless there\u2019s significant investment and outreach, food banks, and social housing, for every homeless person the police move along, two more\u2014[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d5917966961f29928749472d1b5fe4d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! We don\u2019t need that across-the-House argument going on. There is one speaker speaking. Thank you, Mr Jackson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276cb618e35748199f4eb372922e555b7\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. You don\u2019t solve homelessness by criminalising it. Our small-business owners deserve policies that will solve the problem rather than gloss over it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThat side of the House talked tough on the homeless because it\u2019s easier than admitting they are a failure in terms of housing, they\u2019re a failure in terms of their community. You should be ashamed of yourselves. That\u2019s why you\u2019re all squealing and howling, particularly this woman who says she comes from Takanini. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf22a832d14a4c99ab5dfd16e24446e5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ab50cf10a94b810404e441b4e7301fa\u0022\u003ERima Nakhle\u003C/span\u003E: I do come from \u201CTak-aah-nini\u201D, actually\u2014\u201CTak-aah-nini\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8857e26b71a19c47841a4fb848fd1a2\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, you\u2019re a disgrace to Takanini. You\u2019re using the power of the House to bash homeless, vulnerable people. Our people in South Auckland should disown people like that MP over there. You should hang your collective heads in shame. Labour will never support this filthy bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022784f4e929aed4ea6a05d1a10add6eccb\u0022 data-id=\u002268ff207f264bdb2092738cf9cdade89b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022784f4e929aed4ea6a05d1a10add6eccb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268ff207f264bdb2092738cf9cdade89b\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East) (17:16)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a pleasure to have played a small part in this bill through a member\u2019s bill, which was actually worked up by the area commander of Waikato, Andrea McBeth. I pay tribute to the work she did in making sure that this was an example of a halfway house that police could use all over the country. It\u2019s used in every state of Australia as a proactive tool of de-escalating behaviour. There\u2019s been a lot of weaponisation from the Opposition, saying it\u2019s about homelessness. Homelessness is not even in the bill, so I don\u2019t know how many of the members opposite have read it. The Opposition harp on. The worst thing they could do for homelessness and begging is nothing. It\u2019s the most mana-reducing, soul-destroying thing. The move-on orders actually give our police the tool to plug them in with NGOs, local government, central government agencies and make a difference to their life, because, unlike the Opposition, we\u2019ve actually got aspiration for the most vulnerable people in this country. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the Summary Offences (Move-on Orders) Amendment Bill be now read a first time\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002260b62fada5ef9e3d0a519ce02df10807\u0022\u003EReferral to Select Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u00223942d5ba190484332a89d2010f2bef9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223942d5ba190484332a89d2010f2bef9b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh) (17:18)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the Summary Offences (Move-on Orders) Amendment Bill be considered by the Justice Committee\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c060dabfb6605995ff6bec75ce5504b\u0022\u003EInstruction to Select Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u002205a536557893096f00b46185c52bf5f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205a536557893096f00b46185c52bf5f0\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice) (17:19)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsTerm\u0022 style=\u0022font-style: italic\u0022\u003EThat the Summary Offences (Move-on Orders) Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 3 September 2026 and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 193, 195, and 196.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe reason for this slightly faster turn-around of 3\u00BD months rather than the usual period is that this Government wants to get on with this legislation and have it enforced quickly, and because we believe that 3\u00BD months does provide plenty of time for full consideration of the issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022 data-id=\u002285d5db567001c1bd8f76b1864ac23d41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285d5db567001c1bd8f76b1864ac23d41\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green) (17:20)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the motion be amended to replace the word \u201C3 September 2026\u201D with \u201C22 September 2026\u201D\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAgain, I want to first address the broader concerns with this bill in relation to the referral motion. Just for those who are watching, essentially, when we do debates such as this, it\u2019s because when a select committee process that a Government has recommended is significantly shorter than the standard period of even the minimum period of four months, we are undermining the democratic process of the ability for the public to be able to submit on a bill such as this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, the reason I want to move that particular motion, which I will speak to, I think I\u2019ll start with the fact that, despite what the Minister of Justice has said, 2\u00BD months absolutely is not enough when we\u2019re looking at a bill of this significance. Now, the reason also is the fact that this is one of the bills we have seen in this term, and potentially the first bill we have seen this year, that has a Section 7 report by the Attorney-General. What that means is that this is a bill that fundamentally undermines the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act here in Aotearoa New Zealand. It fundamentally undermines the right of every person here in Aotearoa, and that must not be taken lightly. If there is a Section 7 report, this is something that the Attorney-General himself must highlight to this House, and for us to have a shortened select committee period is unconscionable when it comes to anything that affects our human rights. I think it is important for us to first and foremost put that on the table\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn terms of the timing, I also would like to address the fact that there is absolutely no reason for this Government to shorten the select committee process, because bear in mind, if you\u2019re looking at the regulatory impact statement, the date that the regulatory impact statement was finalised was 27 November 2025. This Government could absolutely give the people of New Zealand more than enough time to submit on this bill. If they introduce something like this early on in the year, they could in fact allow for a full six-month select committee without having to have a truncated process. But instead, the Government has chosen to introduce bills of a lesser significance, despite potentially knowing something like this would have the impact and would undermine our bill of rights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt is also important to note that when we are looking at a particular timing, as far as the select committee it is going to, the Justice Committee is one of the select committees that has the highest workload, and I do want to acknowledge every single person in the Justice Committee. It also means that we are going to be looking at timings and also a submission period that does not work for people. As my previous speakers, as speakers who spoke on this bill\u2014particularly, I want to acknowledge our housing spokesperson as well as our MP for Wellington Central, Tamatha Paul, as well as our MP for Auckland Central, Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick, as well as our MP for Rongotai, Julie Anne Genter\u2014these sort of things, the impact this will have on the community, cannot be understated. For us to shorten that select committee process is, again, basically disallowing people\u2019s ability to participate democratically in our system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat 2\u00BD  months of a select committee process means is that what we\u2019ll be looking at is a submission period\u2014if we\u2019re looking at any form of proportionality\u2014of 2\u00BD weeks. That is all it\u2019s going to allow for people to make submissions. I want to challenge the Government, as well as the select committee, that if this is something they are going to be doing\u2014and I note that the Minister in his motion has exempted Standing Order 195, which allows meeting outside of Wellington during sitting weeks\u2014to use the full ability to travel across the country and meet our homeless wh\u0101nau and our transient wh\u0101nau on their own terms at those locations. I am urging, then, the select committee to go to Auckland Central and talk to the homeless wh\u0101nau in Auckland Central. I am urging the select committee to go to Wellington Central, as well as the Rongotai, and talk to the constituents and talk to those people and our homeless wh\u0101nau there. I think, if we\u2019re going to have a truncated period, that is the right thing to do. That is the appropriate thing to do. It is also the democratic thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere are also other considerations when we\u2019re looking at this, and, again, when we are looking at a whole combination of different bills that the Government has introduced just this week, one of the things that is of concern for all of these bills is also the impact they will have on disabled communities. Again, like what you have seen with the previous bill, the disabilities bill, we\u2019re also urging the select committee, if they are going to be looking at the truncated process, to allow full accessibility and the ability for people to be able to make submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to draw attention to the House of previous things that the Justice Committee has done and how they choose to use social media to be able to engage with the public on submissions. I think if we are going to have a truncated process, that is an important and effective thing to do. I also note that while there is a truncated process, this bill doesn\u2019t come into effect until one month after Royal assent. That\u2019s also an important consideration that things could have been done and things could have changed in a way that allowed for a longer select committee period in exchange for, potentially, commencement the day after Royal assent. That, again, allows for more democracy and more of a democratic and transparent and participatory process for the public to be able to submit on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhile it has been said that this is something that has been signalled a long time ago, this bill itself wasn\u2019t introduced until quite recently. Therefore, while it has been signalled, no one has been able to be consulted, and no one has been able to see the full details of this bill. And indeed, if I\u2019m drawing to the limitations of this bill\u2014as indicated in the regulatory impact statement pertaining to the length that we\u2019re looking at in terms of the select committee process\u2014we\u2019re saying that this scope of the bill was constrained by ministerial decisions, and that there has been an inability to consult with a wide-ranging sector as well as the community around this. Again, the signalling is different from genuine engagement and consultation with the public, and therefore, once again, I stress our disappointment with a shortened select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, on to my motion and on to my amendment that amends it from 3 September to 22 September. Noting that the dissolution of Parliament is on 1 October, I want to be balanced to say that even if we see a report-back date on 22 September, which grants an additional 2\u00BD weeks on top of that, which means that we\u2019re going to be seeing an extra few days that the submission is able to be opened, it still gives the current Government full ability to read this bill through all stages before the dissolution of Parliament. So I do want to urge members of this House to speak\u2014and I want to hear your feedback as well as the Ministers now that we are resetting the clock\u2014on the possibility of supporting my amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOnce again, I think it is important that we allow people to submit. I think it\u2019s important for us to allow for that extra couple of weeks. But if my amendment is not supported, I urge the Justice Committee to travel the country under the exemption of Standing Order 195 to be able to hear from the people themselves in those locations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c13d19d4c08b7a176577d427d2b7da7d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I take the next call, members, the question before the House for debate is that the amendment be agreed to. The amendment is now debatable together with the motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022 data-id=\u002240dd914eeb908b480e60a08f5c41c6ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240dd914eeb908b480e60a08f5c41c6ff\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour) (17:30)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to support the motion. We\u2019ve heard from the Minister to support the amended motion. We heard from the Minister very, very brief reasons as to why this bill needed to have a shortened report back of less than four months. I\u2019m not sure if they really stacked up. He seemed to say that the reason we need a shortened report back is because he wanted the bill to be reported back more quickly, which doesn\u2019t really seem to be a reason; it just seems to be a desire that he has.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t agree that there are good reasons for this to be a shortened report back and there are a few reasons for that. One of the reasons is that the bill has attracted a lot of opposition and public interest, and I think anyone viewing the first reading today will be aware of that. Any MP in Parliament would have received a lot of correspondence around this. I know, for our biggest city, Auckland, where probably most of the move-on orders would be issued, that it is something that requires consideration. I don\u2019t think passing it before the election is really a reason to not have proper parliamentary process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis is something that would be referred to the Justice Committee. I sit on the Justice Committee and I just asked my colleague Glen Bennett to tally up the number of bills in front of the Justice Committee\u2014I think there\u2019s something like 13 bills, at least, coming up on the parliamentary website on the tool. That is a lot of legislation to consider. It would be unfortunate if, because this particular Government and because a lot of the members\u2019 bills have been referred to the Justice Committee, that this was not given due hearing or due consideration because of the number of bills that are before it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe have more bills, I understand, on the Justice Committee than any other committee in Parliament, and the Minister wants us to take what is a very controversial subject and report back in a shortened period of time. I don\u2019t agree with that, and I do think it would be better to have at least four months. Usually, with bills, we look at six months; that\u2019s until this Government came into place where four months seems to be the norm, and, of course, we don\u2019t debate it if it\u2019s four months, but because this is less than four months, we\u2019re able to have a perspective on it. The reason that Parliament gave us that right is because it is such an unusual departure from parliamentary process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, I want to acknowledge the staff in the select committees that we have in Parliament. They do an amazing job, and I think they actually try and make sure that people are heard, and they try and make sure that we have enough time to consider all of the legislation that we have before us. But this has been increasingly harder for those staff members to actually enable that. That has been, partly, because we\u2019ve had so many shortened report-back times, but it\u2019s also been because we\u2019ve had so many extended settings in this Parliament as well. That means, for those who are not aware of the parliamentary terminology, essentially, that a day that we would normally be at select committee, we are not at select committee, and we are in the House passing laws and debating things. That has meant that we haven\u2019t had as much time to debate bills despite the fact we have, and to look at bills and to hear submissions on bills to fight, despite the fact we also have more bills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAnother important aspect of this is that there are important human rights considerations that the committee will need to receive advice on. The Attorney-General\u2019s report on section 7 outlines two breaches of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. Now, that is quite unusual to have two breaches of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act actually acknowledged by the Attorney-General, although, I\u2019ve only read two of his opinions so far, and they seem to have found breaches in both of them. If that\u2019s the way that the new Attorney-General will continue, then maybe we have more of these section 7 reports. But it does mean that the committee will have to get advice specifically on if there a way of remedying the bill that does not contradict with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. And this is about people being in public spaces. It\u2019s a very important fundamental right\u2014 basically the freedom to exist and the freedom of movement. That\u2019s why it was kind of surprising to hear some parties that had previously stood up for those types of rights, happy to curtail this right in this instance. So we\u2019ll need to get advice on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAnother thing which indicates to me that a less than four-month\u20143\u00BD month\u2014report-back time will not be sufficient is we haven\u2019t yet opened for submissions. Many people may not be aware of this, but when we have bills introduced to the House, our very, very helpful parliamentary library put together a debate pack and it, essentially, puts all of the media articles and all of the press releases and all of the commentary on bills before parliamentarians. I don\u2019t know if they\u2019re available publicly, but they\u2019re a collation of all of the relevant material. Now, most often, they are a few pages long and it might be because the bill hasn\u2019t been to select committee, there hasn\u2019t been a lot of media commentary on it, but in this case, we have a significant debate pack of, I think, around 26 pages of organisations and individuals who have commented on the fact that the Government is introducing these move-on orders, and have either put out a media release or written an article or in some way commented publicly on that fact. That indicates\u201426 pages of this material prior to even the introduction of this bill and the first reading\u2014indicates a level of interest which is likely to be substantial. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think, on the Justice Committee, we do always try and make sure that we hear from everyone who asked for an oral submission, who has written a relevant submission. I understand it hasn\u2019t been possible for all of the Justice Committee bills, and colleagues who have been on the Justice Committee prior to the time that I joined, have indicated frustration that on things like the Treaty principles bill, they weren\u2019t able to hear all of the submissions. We don\u2019t want move-on orders to be a situation where we have so many submissions and such a short space of time that we cannot listen to New Zealanders. The people who have already commented on this are wide-ranging. We have a comment on the record from a number of different Government agencies, through the process of getting this bill to the House, and a lot of that commentary has been negative. It wouldn\u2019t surprise me if the Justice Committee decided to ask those agencies, who have publicly said that there are issues with this bill, either to appear or for advice. I think that would be a perfectly reasonable thing for the Justice Committee to do in order to satisfy ourselves that we understand the issues before it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAlso, a number of non-governmental organisations, who work with homeless young people in particular, I know have a big interest in this. I know that the organisation Kick Back in Auckland, for example, has been very active in advocating for the rights of homeless young people in Auckland, and I\u2019m sure that they will want to have a period of time that is sufficient. I do think the suggestion\u2014we do sometimes travel outside of Wellington to hear submissions, and because this bill mainly affects Auckland, I think that that would be a relevant consideration for the Justice Committee to consider as to whether it would be appropriate to go to Auckland and actually give those people, who we\u2019re talking about in the bill, an opportunity to provide their advocacy to us. I think it would be unrealistic to expect them to travel to Wellington. Obviously, these days we have a lot of submissions by Zoom, but, in this instance, it may be more appropriate for the Justice Committee to head hearings in Auckland. I know a number of members already reside there, so that wouldn\u2019t be too much of an issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBut those things take time because it means the secretariat has to travel there. It means that you have to have all of the organisation around having in-person hearings in Auckland. We did do this recently on the Governance and Administration Committee, where we had a really full day of submissions in Auckland and it was really good. I think that that would be an act of good faith to listen to Aucklanders and have those submissions there. But of course, with a shortened report-back time, we are limited and we haven\u2019t heard, as I said, from the Minister any substantive reasons as to why there can be the place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI mean, we can proffer that there might be a reason, which is that the Government is unsure of its re-election and therefore wants to put something\u2014this bill\u2014that they obviously state that they feel strongly about, in place before the next general election. If that is the reason, I have to be clear, that isn\u2019t what has been stated. But if that was the reason, I don\u2019t think that there is a reason that the House should support because, of course, Governments are elected for a three-year term\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249e7e17cf39c1d865e9917a71c9314fa\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: We know it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc0fe3a1006d1cbcde4cd542a46b9e85\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, we should know it. Governments are elected for a three-year term. They have that period of time to enact the legislation and curtailing normal parliamentary procedure that allows for the input from the public on something that is important, and there is a lot of passionate debate, as you would have seen on this bill, means that we should have at least four months, if not longer. An option for another amendment that we\u2019re possibly thinking about, although it would be after the election, would be six months, which is the usual time period. Up to other members whether they want to consider whether that is an amendment that might need to be moved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EBut I do support the amendment of Xu-Nan. I do not support the shortened report-back time for the reasons that I\u2019ve outlined. I think, really, the Minister owed us some additional reasons if he did want to curtail public engagement on such an important bill before the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022 data-id=\u0022e56a79dfb3e246dc7daeec1baf85f642\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e56a79dfb3e246dc7daeec1baf85f642\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central) (17:40)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I have tabled an amendment to the motion because it troubles me that when these shortened report-back motions are put to the House, they always throw in a few extras to further liberalise the powers of the committee to meet. My motion is, and I move that all of the words after the words\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b60e5de714fbb257cb8f7e3ecfc4f905\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Is the member moving a motion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2f6e5c2ef6f1e857098b0d777ed8021\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: I just said, \u201CI move.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228be7d233757348322d111cf7c8a17b1d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6afa5ee7b3e1a0b58fca76ac93795d1\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat all of the words after the words \u201C3 September 2026\u201D be struck out\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThose words that appear after that motion are the words which allow the committee to meet during the evening of a day on which the House has sat and to meet on a Saturday and to meet whilst the House is sitting and to meet outside of Wellington.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, take \u201Coutside of Wellington\u201D. My friend Camilla Belich has just observed that that might be useful, but it\u2019s not a power that is necessary. It\u2019s interesting, I note that none of the Government members from the Justice Committee are in the House for this debate, which goes to show\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf22a832d14a4c99ab5dfd16e24446e5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f44ea22347cc4d01ba1244f51ae6c112\u0022\u003ERima Nakhle\u003C/span\u003E: What are you talking about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c8feb1ceaaf610056e7893a2d108e86\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, no, you\u2019re right, sorry. They\u2019ve appeared. But the point is this\u2014the point is this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022694c3cef004e40d78a26712dce80070d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279912ea1c2059f6989c43fec0b5677cf\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: You should have crossed that line out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220df09949d9fe29459ed52195baf30a15\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019ve corrected it; they\u2019ve appeared. I\u2019ve corrected it. Don\u2019t get alarmed. But the point is this: when the House is sitting, I would like to be in the House doing the work of this House in these debates. This is the premier institution of Parliament. It is the House of Representatives, and I take my role of representing my constituents in this House, in this seat, very seriously. The Justice Committee now has the power to sit whilst the House is sitting and to drag me away from anything other than question time, and we know there are important bills going through this House, important debates, including general debates that I want to contribute to, that I want to represent the interests of my constituency in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBy that motion that Minister Paul Goldsmith has put forward, he can deny me my right, because I have a conflicting duty to go and represent on the select committee at the same time, and that\u2019s not right. The real point is this: it\u2019s entirely unnecessary. As the good members of the Justice Committee who are in the House know, the committee can meet in recesses, and it frequently does. It is an extraordinarily busy committee and it does meet in recesses, quite often for whole days. We might grumble about it and we might have discussions in the committee about how and when we meet, but we do it\u2014but we do it. That\u2019s the appropriate thing to do, not to take away one of the most important functions of a member of Parliament, which is to stand up in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI guess the other thing is this. I mean, here we are on a Thursday afternoon approaching the adjournment for the week. Well, next Thursday afternoon, we\u2019ll probably be in Budget urgency, but the next Thursday afternoon that the House is sitting, the select committee meeting can be called. So we won\u2019t be going home at 6 p.m. to our constituencies; we may well be sitting into the night on a day that the House has sat. Of course, we can roll into Friday as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOne of the things that\u2019s not well appreciated is that there is no particular limit, other than Sunday, on when a select committee can sit and this will encroach, again, on important work that MPs have to do, including work in constituencies, so we may well be sitting on a Saturday through to a Friday of a sitting week and on to a Saturday, because we saw in this House the degree of interest in this bill. We have seen quite a few bills go through this House and many, many first readings. It\u2019s very rare that you see the gallery full for a first reading speech, but here we have it today. That is an indication of the interest that is in this bill, and yet we\u2019re going to be shuffling through this bill including on Fridays and Saturdays, if necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fcd00d833f5b5f9372f02b234811760\u0022\u003EHon James Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Oh no!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022021eace0729936a6e01fd38a340fe577\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I know that my colleagues across the House constantly tell me how important and busy they are in their electorates. I imagine Carl Bates will be at City Mission Whanganui on Saturday helping at the food bank. But those things\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d0a150bb32b87fb487630701959e2ba\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Friday morning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274ddd06bfc53ec7cd1ce4647e8daae26\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: No, you won\u2019t; not if the select committee is sitting, because that constituency work is important as well. I\u2019m out on the streets doing some street collection tomorrow\u2014not if the select committee\u2019s meeting. I\u2019m meeting Presbyterian Support tomorrow; not if the select committee is meeting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587d574de1174371be09e431d9060e87\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022635a54dc4941340786e5e587204b81f2\u0022\u003EHon Cameron Brewer\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re a legislator, mate; do your job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022568cd6302eafab05ad9d9a1d11eb5882\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s the problem; there is a place for the work of legislation, but it is regulated by Standing Orders for a reason. This is my real point, I suppose. It may well be that none of those powers are exercised, because I\u2019ve seen these powers being put in motions before and they\u2019re just a belt and braces: \u201CJust in case you want it. Here you go. Have these extra powers to sit.\u201D But they\u2019re never exercised, because, actually, once we get in the room, despite the harping from across the House, we generally sit down and work out what\u2019s the best way to get through these things, so to give unnecessary extraordinary powers really cuts across what should be done here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELook, I was disappointed that the Minister didn\u2019t give a reason as to why this piece of legislation should have a shortened period, other than to say, essentially, a circular argument: \u201CI would like this piece of legislation to proceed through the House quickly because I want to get it done quickly.\u201D That\u2019s all he said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EHe didn\u2019t say, for example, the issue is at crisis point and we need these powers as soon as possible, which would have been false, or \u201CIt\u2019s a simple piece of legislation. It won\u2019t take long.\u201D He didn\u2019t say that there\u2019s no interest in this legislation, and there won\u2019t be many people wanting to submit. He didn\u2019t give a single substantive reason, and so here we are wondering why he wants to rush it. In fact, it would be much more appropriate\u2014I know that Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s amendment pushed it out to I think a bit over four months, but it\u2019s much more appropriate for this to be pushed out for the full period, which would be over the election period, so that we can deliberate this properly, because it does deserve careful consideration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFor example, one of the things that really deserves full consideration of the committee is the issue of begging, right? Now, in their speeches, the members on the other side sort of avoided the fact that begging can precipitate a move-on order, which can precipitate a fine, which can then precipitate imprisonment. What exactly is begging? I will be on the streets I think it\u2019s tomorrow afternoon for Aviva asking for money from passers-by. That sounds a bit like begging to me. Apparently there\u2019s some carve-out for legitimate begging or legitimate requests for money. Well, let\u2019s talk about what that is. If I ask for money for Lawrence, and Lawrence asks for money for me, does that mean that it\u2019s legitimate because I\u2019m not asking for myself? I don\u2019t know. They\u2019re the kind of questions that the select committee needs to be delving into. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe need to hear from people who are directly affected, the people who might be asked to move on. We need their views, and they\u2019re not views that are got quickly or easily; in fact, they might not even be in writing. One of the things, of course, the select committee has trouble with is hearing enough oral submissions. Sometimes we get one-line submissions with a request to be heard. I hope, in this case, we\u2019ll have enough time to hear them, even though they say, \u201CI oppose this bill. Please hear me.\u201D, perhaps not even spelt correctly. They may well be the people who are affected by this bill, who don\u2019t have good literacy skills, who may be able to come and tell their story in person, but if we don\u2019t have enough time to do it, then we\u2019re in real trouble. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELook, I know the select committee by and large works well and hard at the work it does, and relatively cooperatively, but, in this case, that\u2019s going to be very hard to do because it\u2019s a very tricky problem, both legally in terms of how the law\u2019s going to work, but also kind of socially and personally. These are complex people we\u2019re dealing with and so we need as much time as we can to do that, and we certainly don\u2019t need the list of other constraints on the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266841896df730091b046566ed37f7ba2\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question before the House for debate is that the amendment be agreed to. The amendment is now debatable together with the motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022 data-id=\u00223a3186f9e337a6f583da54f357c95de3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bac3dcb6103a48d3bcead8563342a856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a3186f9e337a6f583da54f357c95de3\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green) (17:50)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Knowing the rules, I want to speak specifically to the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s amendment around the strike-out for anything that\u2019s after 3 September. I actually would support the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s amendment, because my amendment simply makes a rational push out to what is before the dissolution of Parliament. I think that if we\u2019re able to give the opportunity to have the full six months by striking out that date completely, that does allow us more time to consider. My understanding\u2014and this is something that I personally haven\u2019t experienced before\u2014is that when the previous Parliament dissolves and then a new Parliament commences, once the new Parliament commences, the process is that there will be a reinstatement motion that allows the continuation of any previous Parliament\u2019s activities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy amendment, in some ways, was quite cynical in the sense that it makes the assumption that the Government wants to push this through, noting that it will neither be picked up or it will be repealed by the next Government. I think that if we are able to take on board the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s amendment, it actually is also a sign, I guess, in some ways, of confidence and reassurance by the current Government that no matter what happens in the election and what happens next term, this bill will continue to be considered by the select committee. I think that if they really think that this is something that is supposed to be effective and long and enduring, they wouldn\u2019t mind accepting what the Hon Dr Duncan Webb has proposed and having a full-on six-month select committee process as opposed to what I proposed, which is just, essentially, four months and a day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI also think that when we are looking at what the Hon Dr Duncan Webb and my colleague Camilla Belich have said, we simply don\u2019t know as a select committee the sheer interest for this bill\u2014how many submissions we\u2019re going to get. Again, if we are able to get something that\u2019s substantial like the Treaty principles bill, then it actually would mean that there is potentially no possible way that we would be able to even consider this bill as well as everything else in the Justice Committee without having that six-month period like the honourable member\u2019s amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt also means that as a select committee, what you then need to do is try to push everything and start to have to think about the priority of the bills that we have in front of us and what that would mean. Obviously, we want to be able to work to our current deadline for some of the bills. Potentially, again, for consideration\u2014this is something I haven\u2019t mentioned before\u2014it wouldn\u2019t be necessary, if we take on board the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s amendment, to write to the Business Committee to ask for those kinds of extensions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI also think the other consideration to make, if we are allowed to have a full-on six-month select committee by striking out 3 September 2026, is that when we are looking at the submission process and also the hearings during the select committee, we make certain assumptions. I want to really pick up on something that Camilla Belich mentioned, which is that we are now used to doing things on Zoom or on video or using audiovisual technology. However, what we often fail to consider is that our submission portal, our selection process, my colleague Tamatha Paul can confirm, requires people to have access to a device to the internet, and to be able to operate technology, and that may not be the case when we are looking at the requirements or the constituents we\u2019re trying to reach with this particular bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAgain, if we are going to have a full six months, we may be able to tease that out, but I don\u2019t know if the select committee at this stage is prepared to have to accept submissions via writing. If we have submissions via writing and the submission period is only 2\u00BD weeks as opposed to six weeks for a six-month bill, does that mean that we can accept late submissions if they\u2019re done in writing but the date stamp of that writing, whatever happens to our New Zealand Post service, is on a day that is within that period? Potentially, that means that our hearings will need to be pushed out. It\u2019s the same thing when we\u2019re looking at being able to travel the country and having discussions, because sometimes, for the people and the communities that we want to hear from, they may not be able to have access to Zoom and audiovisual technology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis is why I\u2019m taking this particular call\u2014just to really support and tautoko what the Hon Dr Duncan Webb has suggested in his amendment. I think, with that, that is sufficient from me, and I\u2019m sure other people may have further considerations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022443f23de4cbd464f91833e6c466c98c0\u0022 data-id=\u00229fc49a10c03e2f1eb1d1f1a566e23842\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022443f23de4cbd464f91833e6c466c98c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fc49a10c03e2f1eb1d1f1a566e23842\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (Whip\u2014ACT) (17:56)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat debate on this question now close\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c2473ebb58f1cbba15ca38f28ab5c29\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: This debate is interrupted and is set down for resumption next sitting day. The House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 26 May 2026.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20260521b97809cb38a9addb20000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 5.56 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"