"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022667850dd735f1e26b7f97dd6a1bc9418\u0022\u003EWednesday, 19 August 2026\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EThe Speaker\u003C/span\u003E took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002268b6deb9463d0efcdc7bdc7a49f88d67\u0022\u003EStart of Sitting Day\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222b44ed40a27ef0cfc5ec6442f8587d89\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u002209ebbd56d57c1111f9561ba0419ba870\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209ebbd56d57c1111f9561ba0419ba870\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Assistant Speaker) (14:00)\u003C/span\u003E: E te Atua kaha rawa, ka tuku whakamoemiti atu m\u0101tou, m\u014D ng\u0101 karakia kua waihotia mai ki runga i a m\u0101tou. Ka waiho i \u014D m\u0101tou p\u0101nga whaiaro katoa ki te taha. Ka mihi m\u0101tou ki te K\u012Bngi, me te inoi atu m\u014D te \u0101rahitanga i roto i \u014D m\u0101tou whakaaroarohanga, kia m\u014Dhio ai, kia whakaiti ai t\u0101 m\u0101tou whakahaere i ng\u0101 take o te Whare nei, m\u014D te oranga, te maung\u0101rongo, me te aroha o Aotearoa. \u0100mene.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003E[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EAlmighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King and pray for guidance in our deliberations that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom and humility, for the welfare, peace, and compassion of New Zealand. Amen.\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228875aa0f7d8f657156dc950bd6dd1efe\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E:No petitions have been delivered to the Clerk for presentation, no papers have been delivered to the Clerk for presentation, and no select committee reports have been delivered for presentation. No bills have been introduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228b92c0d073acf7f9995c67b83b08bb92\u0022\u003EOral Questions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022624059883d53b1a61e67eb4e0e0f2ebc\u0022\u003EFinance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022522a38fc2af48adc800f8e997f8f9bf8\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b7cff05e64f346e68983b2fdbfba3ad8\u0022 data-id=\u002275892fd1bb034be37d0241e99d58d7ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b7cff05e64f346e68983b2fdbfba3ad8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275892fd1bb034be37d0241e99d58d7ea\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote) (14:01)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister of Finance\u003C/span\u003E: How is the Government helping New Zealand businesses to invest in productive assets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u0022cedd5b1e16f8ba64ee91f71849776b57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cedd5b1e16f8ba64ee91f71849776b57\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (14:01)\u003C/span\u003E: To lift incomes and drive long-term economic growth, New Zealand needs businesses to invest in capital investment that increases their productivity. That\u2019s why the Government introduced Investment Boost in last year\u2019s Budget. Investment Boost allows New Zealand businesses to immediately deduct 20\u00A0percent of the cost of a new asset on top of normal depreciation. This tax change means more investment opportunities will stack up financially so more investments will be made. Treasury and Inland Revenue consider that over the next 20\u00A0years, Investment Boost will increase New Zealand\u2019s capital stock, lift productivity, and lift wages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b7cff05e64f346e68983b2fdbfba3ad8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206f0c6ce6b3403e1611db89c212d4297\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: Who benefits from Investment Boost?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022561fafb0f4f18cdf1756b659af8e7e48\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: A lot of people benefit when businesses do well, but let me quote from the regulatory impact statement for Investment Boost, which was prepared by Inland Revenue and Treasury officials: \u201COur view is the majority of the increase in national income from this policy would flow to workers and this increase would come from a combination of higher wages and higher employment, and we therefore expect that the benefits of this policy will be spread broadly across a wide range of New Zealanders.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b7cff05e64f346e68983b2fdbfba3ad8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbef025671020eeb132b8bf9b21b6c85\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: Is there a cap on the value of new investments under this policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a4482d095b4a2236d8d84ea6cf90d33\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: No. All New Zealand businesses, regardless of size, are eligible for Investment Boost, and there is no cap on the value of new investments. New Zealand needs businesses, both big and small, to be investing in machinery, tools, farm equipment, technology, heavy vehicles, utes, industrial buildings, and other capital assets. [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022693d3d4fca4ce77fed07b32db41e29a1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, people who want to converse across the House while a question\u2019s either being asked or answered will be asked to remove themselves to the side galleries to continue the argument. The Minister may wish to start again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df754bf3f6437609043bbf431acf668c\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, thank you. All New Zealand businesses, regardless of size, are eligible for Investment Boost, and there\u2019s no cap on the value of new investments or prescription of what can and cannot be eligible. New Zealand needs our businesses, both big and small, to be investing in machinery, tools, technology, farm equipment, vehicles, industrial buildings, and other capital assets. Those are the sorts of investments that drive productivity growth, job creation, and wage growth. An accelerated depreciation scheme that only applied, for example, to assets less than $10,000 in value might encourage some businesses to buy a laptop or a chair or a lamp. None of that is going to transform their business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b7cff05e64f346e68983b2fdbfba3ad8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f7f7fa0802642fc9a6a8a70f97bc403\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: How much are New Zealand businesses saving from Investment Boost?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0bd91a73e48bf237ddbe0d6271c7884\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Investment Boost is expected to reduce taxes on New Zealand businesses by $6.6\u00A0billion in the first four years of the policy. It is a policy to reduce tax on New Zealand businesses. Now, that is not in itself the only point of the policy, which is actually to incentivise businesses to make productive investments which will allow the New Zealand economy to grow. It does show that any policy to remove Investment Boost would, effectively, be a $6.6\u00A0billion tax increase on New Zealand businesses. Furthermore, it would have a negative impact on capital investment, on productivity, and on wage growth. Anyone proposing such a policy should be upfront about the consequences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002269d907a815e61ae2a7b50af2dddeec4f\u0022\u003EPrime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002239471e0e021ce236a8b9bc307e3527b5\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022 data-id=\u002295971fd7f0cd729cae3e7c019c2de282\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295971fd7f0cd729cae3e7c019c2de282\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition) (14:05)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EPrime Minister\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022 data-id=\u0022936c4706c5b9220da8cb23dbab73ef68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022936c4706c5b9220da8cb23dbab73ef68\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister) (14:05)\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, and I just want to confirm for the member that this Government won\u2019t be implementing a capital gains tax, a digital services tax, a business tax, a 45 percent top tax rate, an inheritance tax, gift tax, rentals tax, asset tax, land tax, streaming tax, or ute tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc2780751abaca330df620f2a887275d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: What day did he first become aware that members of his own team intended to challenge his position as Prime Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265936c04895fed230b361774810ad796\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We dealt with that issue last week. I\u2019ve been very open about it in the media. I\u2019ve talked about it, we\u2019ve dealt with it, and we\u2019re moving on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d905ccbe9ff2390631776a695473bcd6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. What the Prime Minister says to the media is irrelevant. My question to him was: what day did he become aware that members of his own team intended to challenge his position as Prime Minister? This does relate directly to his responsibilities as Prime Minister. He sacked a Minister as a result of it. Asking him when he first became aware of that is not unreasonable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5e3f702bcc4239b199308f2719505f1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And his opening answer was \u201CEarly last week\u201D, and I you can\u2019t deny that addresses the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af9a82003f322591b36caccd4147ac1d\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ebd18bbc1151ac4273d3331b6f9934b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on. Sorry, it\u2019s a point of order. [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E] The Hon Chris Bishop. No one else speaking at this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ff20e0d01adee65db126b53ae515945\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister is responsible for his actions and statements as Prime Minister. Issues to do with political party matters are not the responsibility of this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f24a00e36b882735a5496c2ce6f0a04\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, unfortunately, there was a consequence that was taken as Prime Minister that has led to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2a75d21c5e259885a9e48065f1c7814\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Did he receive an assurance, between learning of Chris Penk\u2019s challenge and his decision to call a National Party caucus meeting, that Erica Stanford continued to support him as Prime Minister; if so, how was that support conveyed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae1f98a123287f55895fa9c762ae8d24\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8ba85f33c408968a286d282e884a393\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. That does go straight to the heart of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283ff87801d5fd5311fcc1b709539178a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. The Prime Minister can only be the Prime Minister if he enjoys the confidence of the House. Asking questions about that is absolutely within his purview as Prime Minister. He has sacked the person who I questioned him about. It is completely reasonable to question him about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022095cbd4f3e7b9b9c392b5c3b476e7edb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If your position was correct, then you\u2019d need to ask that question about absolutely every member in the House. The Prime Minister sits in that seat because he clearly has the confidence of his caucus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b331560f0b51f34fc37e2dad3fd1a7a9\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. That\u2019s exactly the point. You\u2019re asserting something that has not yet been established. Questioning him on whether or not he does actually have the confidence of his own Ministers, therefore, is totally in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266b9482df56f76dd0fc84b0b25e9b9ab\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to make it absolutely clear that if there was to be any change in the leadership of a party, it\u2019s done so by a caucus, not by individual Ministers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bfa2f3bbc36792c3f070175af1e031b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: If Chris Penk was acting alone in trying to remove him as Prime Minister, which resulted in him being sacked, why did he need to call every National MP back to Wellington to vote on it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ff72dda29dedbe45e7e755b73d033cb\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209f8872429f4c1adc7e18a026b41f67c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: People are going to listen to points of order silently, or otherwise they\u2019ll be listening to it on the broadcast.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0daa4f2cadee3ea780480368607b336\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: The Leader of the Opposition is cleverly, but wrongly, conflating two separate issues in attempting to ask questions about matters to do with the National Party caucus, in Parliament where the Prime Minister sits as the Prime Minister. Those are not admissible questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277eefe1b4f927ce6f214e04ac33d68cf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dcbb0649ee004bd51a2cee7807ca40e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. He sacked Chris Penk as a Minister, who basically challenged him, and said that Chris Penk was acting alone. It is completely legitimate to question the veracity of that claim. It resulted in a Minister being sacked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5b6a024215c21d91bd97d3f3f4ce7a4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, they\u2019re two entirely separate things. One is you have party caucuses choose who their leader is. The second thing is that if that party is in Government and is the dominant party, then clearly that leader will become a Prime Minister. Ministers serve at the courtesy of the Prime Minister, and while you may wish to conflate two different things, I think the ground\u2019s been well gone over as to why the Minister concerned was relieved of his portfolios. It\u2019s not tenable for\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9fb0d365be4766cf8b0ae9f56930b1b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240c2084447bc16613ac47d6d6978326c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK, I won\u2019t go further. Good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235cc5d386fbf8568908be7725f07db61\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: All right\u2014thank you, Mr Speaker. Did any other Minister in his Government indicate that he should stand down as Prime Minister during the last two weeks; if so, why didn\u2019t he sack them too?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d8c7c854d3c32488f705bb67f1111ff\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: As has been reported, Chris Penk was the only person to challenge for the leadership; he was working for himself. I have to say, this is a pretty sad and petty\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218d3cadde392618451ff86b7833eacee\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200da7991b78096aa7c2c1750e7f92a1c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014excuse me, sunshine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d65e828ec34dcab5c6fcc118d51c3eb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. OK. Woah. Point of order, the Rt Hon Chris Hipkins.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219e97772d5a93518c61b01336f626cc6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a very straightforward question, Mr Speaker. It was completely consistent with the ruling you\u2019ve just made. It\u2019s whether or not a Minister in his Government asked him to stand down; and if so, why they\u2019re not being sacked. He is responsible for that; it does relate to his job as Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232e2161905a63e9b5023a9c241b51e85\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: The answer is no. Chris Penk was the only one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d9b11785b123240af0b33e93a54a314\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The answer\u2019s just been given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a398b6237ff9e94fc55849516dcc3c1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Was Winston Peters correct when he said National\u2019s leadership and MPs are \u201Cinexperienced, egotistical, and self-obsessed\u201D; if not, how does he explain their behaviour to twice try and remove him as Prime Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed1dcdece6aa12382a65aa2ae506fa87\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No. I think he may have had his Chrises mixed up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235f50e2b9fd90c12a67de1bb22aed551\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon David Seymour\u2014[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E] Wait a minute, just wait. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228da28ab98a5da68dc70935fb6d58375\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Is it important for his Ministers\u2014[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1698b4132bfe6cd2fb60a9acadee533\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry. Wait. Even the loud laughter from the back could end up being an early afternoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d21f6ea9abcb0245f565dbab76f98dc6\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Is it important for his Ministers to update their conflict of interest register, and would he sack one who failed to do it after being reminded 14 times?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264f4378a0431f0dc5f88004158bb5ef5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. I don\u2019t think that helps with things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f694d0840eef4baecea9cf027de5cc4\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: If standards of ministerial conduct are that important to the Government, why hasn\u2019t he sacked two Ministers who have been repeatedly racist?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba8258fafbe8d1e79f7b4cee4c0c7b28\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I just want to say, look, the member is\u2014it\u2019s very flattering; he\u2019s got very obsessed with me. I have to say, Amanda\u2019s getting quite jealous. I think this election is about tax; he wants to make this election about me. That\u2019s perfectly fine, but I think it\u2019s pretty sad and pretty petty, to be honest. [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb65f77b354609bdf00e00ff0edf2671\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: When we\u2019re all settled. Question No. 3\u2014Jenny Marcroft. [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E] Hang on a minute\u2014there\u2019s one person on the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e14f7dfc368764102f61d82615237f92\u0022\u003EHealth\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ae474c212e9894d790cadad11223503e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d92a09db28c44070bbfdcc9f0e6f3cca\u0022 data-id=\u00225b2736950c034e7252cb28834ff0f872\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d92a09db28c44070bbfdcc9f0e6f3cca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b2736950c034e7252cb28834ff0f872\u0022\u003EJENNY MARCROFT (NZ First) (14:12)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EAssociate Minister of Health\u003C/span\u003E: What recent reports has she seen on aged care?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8d7d7e0a6407e5d49f622dc68af4e7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8d7d7e0a6407e5d49f622dc68af4e7a\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health) (14:12)\u003C/span\u003E: This Government established a ministerial advisory group to review aged care. The Aged Care Ministerial Advisory Group has delivered their independent report that sets out what they believe is needed to create an aged-care system that provides the right care in the right place, ensuring people can transition between the type of care they need when they need it. In addition, the group focused on the changes they believe need to be made to make the aged-care system fairer and more sustainable. I would like to commend the group for their exemplary work on this report. They were given a huge task, and the amount of work they put in to deliver the 40 recommendations is admirable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d92a09db28c44070bbfdcc9f0e6f3cca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200992f843444acb136ffd8f37c5eda69\u0022\u003EJenny Marcroft\u003C/span\u003E: Why is this report important?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1503fcdda7b85ed86fdf658f66e7e08\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: A proper aged-care system is a key part of ensuring people live as well as they can as they age, and I\u2019m proud that this Government is actually looking at ways to build that. We\u2019ve known for a long time that aged care isn\u2019t set up as a system and it has funding challenges. For too long, Governments have been kicking the can down the road. Aged care has been a priority for this Government, evidenced by the New Zealand First - National coalition agreement commitments: to engage openly and constructively with the aged-care sector, investigate funding options for residential care beds, undertake a select committee inquiry, and work to support bipartisan agreement on the funding needed for care beds into the future. The ministerial advisory group report provides a vision for a pathway forward, and I hope all parties in this House would consider it to be a good starting point for building a long-term solution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d92a09db28c44070bbfdcc9f0e6f3cca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022433f20ddd7dbbce3ef479c55b87a04f3\u0022\u003EJenny Marcroft\u003C/span\u003E: What is being done in response to this report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228af6add87adfa19dde6ec49ae726463c\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve said, the future of aged care is incredibly important\u2014for those in care, their families, everyone who might be in care, the sector, and the wider health system. They also involve significant sums of money. We need to get any change right. That\u2019s why the report and its recommendations will be considered carefully by this Government. Cabinet has directed the Ministry of Health to develop advice for the Government on the recommendations, including on options for the timing and process of aged-care reform. This will cover immediate and longer-term priorities into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223a60de088eae5d5b3d669a328951bf03\u0022\u003EPrime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224a2807d22bc4c6d0a8e9c3303e749cbc\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022 data-id=\u0022de006f4f08ac17d21c8efeb76bbdadcb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de006f4f08ac17d21c8efeb76bbdadcb\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green) (14:15)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EPrime Minister\u003C/span\u003E: \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EE tautoko ana ia i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero me ng\u0101 mahi katoa a t\u014Dna K\u0101wanatanga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003E[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EDoes he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022 data-id=\u0022b515e606c933b3efdc3956d153987628\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b515e606c933b3efdc3956d153987628\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister) (14:15)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and particularly I want to reassure the member that this Government won\u2019t be implementing a 45 percent top income tax rate, an inheritance tax, a gift tax, a rentals tax, or an asset tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f5b02c1fa3fdb5cb6c0b908c7ed8a78\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: When he said, and I quote, \u201CI thought the Greens\u2019 announcement was sort of a bit of classic Greens, to be honest, in the sense of we haven\u2019t even got the investment here in New Zealand. We haven\u2019t got data centres happening at scale.\u201D, was he unaware of the hyperscale artificial intelligence (AI) Datagrid data centre being approved\u2014the very context of the Greens\u2019 announcement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213e71c11932bf0f13b1f154d8b36a9ca\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No. My point was that we\u2019ve got about three data centres coming on stream in the next year, if everything goes to plan. Current data centres are about 0.6 percent of New Zealand\u2019s electricity generation, Australia\u2019s about 2.2, and I think Ireland\u2019s 22 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226b3bef5d3f181ba6aeaf2934855fbe1\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: So, then, does he stand by his statement that \u201Cwe\u2019ve got about three data centres, I think, expected to come on stream in the next year. The advice we\u2019ve had is that it won\u2019t put upward pressure on electricity prices\u201D, and, if so, can he confirm that this advice explicitly excludes the AI Datagrid centre?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ac0cb1548d142e445324a8ac5cea36b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first leg of the question, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5786dc557eb8feafc744fc6f48de53b\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: So can he guarantee that the 280 megawatt Southland data centre will not push up electricity prices for households and businesses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8722115df228b03840a68362b3b0ea5\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, actually, a lot of data centres that have come into New Zealand actually support additional generation and investment. If you think about the Microsoft one that\u2019s been backed by Contact, think about the AWS one backed by Mercury, think about the Datagrid Southland one backed by Mercury as well\u2014I\u2019m just saying to the member that we agree that there should be some sensible rules. We certainly think there should be additional generation put in place. There\u2019s a number of things that we can work through to get a code in place to get some common, sensible rules, but I just want to reassure the member that we need data centres for a modern life in New Zealand. We want to take the opportunity. That\u2019s what we\u2019re going to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d5256be5e8cf3db1b8a3359fc3d85ea\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: So how does the Prime Minister reconcile his agreement with us that we need \u201Csensible, common-sense rules\u201D in place for hyperscale AI data centres with his willingness to continue allowing hyperscale AI data centres to be consented under current rules before sensible, common-sense regulations can be put in place, meaning that those consented AI data centres will not have those rules apply to them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f1f0c32ac547b1860618df49636c74e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: My point was that the Greens want to turn off investors and investment before they have even arrived in New Zealand. They want to put up a \u201Cclosed for business\u201D sign. We went through that experience on oil and gas and it wasn\u2019t pleasant. I was just saying to the member that we have about three coming on stream in the coming year. We believe in some sensible rules, and we\u2019ll get those in place in due course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227454e368697bbcaac022a675c3f9fdc1\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Has there been any evaluation whatsoever on the impact on energy prices if his Government\u2019s investment arm strategy of $35 billion more invested into hyperscale AI data centres is successful before sensible, common-sense rules can be put in place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284c16563230dbcce2fdbd7311a573f41\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think the member would fully support the actions of this Government that have led to a 35 percent reduction in wholesale electricity prices because of our desire to make sure we have a liquefied natural gas import facility, we have a strategic coal reserve, we have a strategic diesel reserve, and we\u2019ve built more renewables in the last two years than we have in the previous eight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233ee7f427ff18146e7966abe0e9542f6\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bd9a65e5a4af8772a268ae65fe9e2a2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A point of order and no one else making any comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de629383153b26e297d9be4695f34675\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that the rules of question time are not that the Prime Minister obviously has to answer the question, but at the very least I understand he is supposed to address them. My question was specifically and explicitly about whether the Government had requested any advice on the impact on energy prices of hyperscale AI data centres. He did not address that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229935acedde148b2c63e3fe562b1397b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister may wish to make another comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c70f89b4be6d79c7c9c3e6174d61a22\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. Look, the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment advises that if current data centre growth continues as expected, there should be no upward pressure on electricity prices. This is also a Government taking the energy needs of New Zealand very seriously. That is why, actually, a 35 percent reduction in wholesale electricity prices is a good thing for New Zealand and New Zealand businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf9e1eb91ef740868a26db659355f7e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022889cdd42248fb460d582215d91def36f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister heard Anthony Newley\u2019s song \u201CStop the World\u2014I Want to Get Off\u201D, and could that possibly be a political party\u2019s manifesto?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237d6f3d78b84f983d02c0211dc3a11b6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002239f336cf06cc886cf67cc5d6fc950cbe\u0022\u003EWomen\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220a51d238e1ffb9635234e3f03b0db676\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022083a816abbb847f0a99aff178b1bbba2\u0022 data-id=\u00223a97dde5d8baaf21b994a2dac7f751a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022083a816abbb847f0a99aff178b1bbba2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a97dde5d8baaf21b994a2dac7f751a9\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour) (14:20)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister for Women\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by her statement that \u201CThe Government is committed to supporting women\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022 data-id=\u0022abcae421ab999b2f9fefb0cc7ee9656b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abcae421ab999b2f9fefb0cc7ee9656b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG (Minister for Women) (14:20)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. This Government is committed to supporting women through practical actions. Just yesterday, we announced further support for women living with endometriosis by introducing guidelines to help doctors and clinicians diagnose the condition. We\u2019ve also expanded free breast screening to the age of 74. We\u2019ve introduced KiwiSaver Government contributions for eligible parents receiving paid parental leave in Budget 2026, and we will continue to invest in initiatives that support women\u2019s leadership, wellbeing, safety, and economic participation. [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d84ea5b8cc7e314164d96407ed2a7ba\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait for the House to gather itself. Just keep waiting. The Hon Carmel Sepuloni.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022083a816abbb847f0a99aff178b1bbba2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293026c654d773d2261c6ba63a293fe48\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Was the Government supporting women when it changed the law under urgency, cancelling 180,000 women\u2019s pay equity claims and blocking secondary school teachers from making future claims?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022678f4a700f03c2d94f811dc36f18e808\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG\u003C/span\u003E: As has been traversed more times than I can count in this House, I am not the Minister responsible for the pay equity changes. However, this Government remains committed to progressing pay equity through a system that is clearer, is targeted, and is sustainable in the long term. Pay equity is important\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022896677d68491f2335c4f4e5957bb39c8\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dd6f4541c6e0798b0ce1b7d96a1f7b0\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but it is just one part of the picture.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223037317a532c4ed053ac52e8cee52c63\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Show us the money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ae22ba98a374439ae775ecb51e59405\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG\u003C/span\u003E: Women\u2019s overall economic outcomes are influenced by a broader set of economic and social factors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b35db71c944a4b117fa33940f251d6e7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Megan Woods.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022083a816abbb847f0a99aff178b1bbba2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fecbbf646a2ade43cf8b6db079c5d24b\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not Megan Woods, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebb69bc0a81c9e4a8035be6494eb255c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you could have been confused with the amount of questions coming across the House during that last exchange. The Hon Carmel Sepuloni.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022083a816abbb847f0a99aff178b1bbba2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265047b6b039f3d31644db0e10c68b1e1\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Was the Government supporting women when it blocked proposals to introduce cross-party legislation to change our consent laws so the National Party could score political points?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221d4092e404af2280c40827efb47edd1\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG\u003C/span\u003E: I have no responsibility for that legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022083a816abbb847f0a99aff178b1bbba2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d0b53bb81ae5bac9aa07d6f56472a0e\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. In the Minister\u2019s answer to the primary question, she rattled off a number of areas that the Government, she proposed, had supported women in, so I believe I can ask about a range of things across sectors involving women, because her job is to advocate on behalf of women, as the Minister for Women.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8ade314cff1cd43292bb5bdc689c6d6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s an interesting prospect, but there will be some aspects of Government activity that involve all Ministers; the Minister for Women pointing to those is not unreasonable. To ask specific questions about those I think is probably taking it a bit too far, but ask the question again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022083a816abbb847f0a99aff178b1bbba2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3a23d819ef854c0a1bbacb60754cf63\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Was the Government supporting women when it blocked proposals to introduce cross-party legislation to change our consent laws so the National Party could score political points\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d0a9e32024fad7a8c52aef02ff40bb0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: See, the last part makes it very difficult for a Minister to answer without making some political statements. You\u2019ve got to ask what exactly you want.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022083a816abbb847f0a99aff178b1bbba2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd53b5ec6f4b5a291fbf0596d6a8bcbf\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Was the Government supporting women when it blocked proposals to introduce cross-party legislation to change our consent laws?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228244e08998d1317aa41ac48954a4ba6b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG\u003C/span\u003E: I do reject the characterisation of that question, but what I would say is this Government is working really hard to improve safety for women. Just last month, I launched a practical guide to help employers and workplaces support staff experiencing stalking. That launch actually coincided with the Government\u2019s introduction of new anti-stalking legislation, which recognises stalking as a harmful pattern of behaviour that carries a maximum penalty of five years in prison.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022083a816abbb847f0a99aff178b1bbba2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e545bd68e4439ae6d431ba20d548bd57\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Was the Government supporting women when it removed 53,000 families from receiving BestStart childcare tax credits and cutting the payments for another 9,000 families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4a32874f596fe20a5a2a6000c9e83d4\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG\u003C/span\u003E: I have no legislative responsibility for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022083a816abbb847f0a99aff178b1bbba2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220471350202a9f284a17f3f97fda6419b\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Was Nicola Willis correct that the reason paid parental leave is not currently 30 weeks is because the Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety \u201Cdidn\u2019t prioritise this change in her work programme\u201D, and, if so, why didn\u2019t she prioritise these changes in her women\u2019s portfolio?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220873ec217eddf6cc21d260bf175903c1\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m advised that that is not what the Minister of Finance said, and I\u2019d suggest that member put those questions in writing to the relevant Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022083a816abbb847f0a99aff178b1bbba2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210ca078d8b95159fc1222fc26ac559d6\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Paid parental leave is one of the areas that the Minister did cover in her opening answer to my primary question, so I think it\u2019s fair that I am able to ask a supplementary question on that specific area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254066292f51a9482d4e1262976e9b203\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and it\u2019s also fair that the Minister says she\u2019s not able to answer on that. Do you have another supplementary? OK, question No. 6\u2014Dr Carlos Cheung.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229bdcf122eb5979b9528bbd48a53492cc\u0022\u003EHousing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ccd98809f6b79e87caa6bd87a384e1ec\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b618b847a57b4afb94b76eaea9e042a5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5f6c73badd4027daa86207ab213fd20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b618b847a57b4afb94b76eaea9e042a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5f6c73badd4027daa86207ab213fd20\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill) (14:25)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister of Housing\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Government considering removing interest deductibility on residential property?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f53415ab4a85cf614b29caf86d88d573\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f53415ab4a85cf614b29caf86d88d573\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Housing) (14:25)\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b618b847a57b4afb94b76eaea9e042a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244d57d12aa744dbdf6b8675d80d61d51\u0022\u003EDr Carlos Cheung\u003C/span\u003E: How does interest deductibility on residential property work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f8a87c7606e653f35d8c7a25fb0e006\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: In New Zealand, tax is paid on profit, not revenue. That mean residential property investors can subtract mortgage interest they pay, and other expenses like council rates, from their rental income. Take a simple example: if a rental earns $30,000 a year; rates, insurances, and repairs comes to $8,000; and mortgage interest is $20k, with deductibility, the taxable profit is $2,000, and tax is about $660, and without it, the tax is about $7,260\u2014on a property that only actually made $2,000 profit. This is a great way to disincentivise people from renting out their property. The Government supports the principal that you pay tax on profit\u2014as it does with any other business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b618b847a57b4afb94b76eaea9e042a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a627137e22eda0db9b06ec753b46b014\u0022\u003EDr Carlos Cheung\u003C/span\u003E: Why isn\u2019t the Government considering removing interest deductibility on residential property?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227567bb68e20275fd5f2506f144afeca6\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Many reasons, but here are three. For one, removing deduction is unprincipled because it violates a fundamental principal of tax law. Secondly, it\u2019s inconsistent and can therefore create perverse incentives. Thirdly, removing interest deductibility raises cost for people who provide rentals, which\u2014according to experts\u2014is likely to be passed on to renters. It is perhaps unsurprising that between 2017 and 2023, rents went up by $180 per week, and they are now flat, and in some markets falling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b618b847a57b4afb94b76eaea9e042a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273d74ffc6cf105c0a887c40b709f256c\u0022\u003EDr Carlos Cheung\u003C/span\u003E: What do experts say about removing interest deductibility on residential property?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bb71861c6efb4ad4a6d692c00811fb8\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Let me quote from the regulatory impact statement. IRD said that they were concerned that denying interest deduction would make rental investment unattractive, reducing supply over time, placing upward pressure on rents, thus raising costs for renters. Dr Oliver Hartwich said that calling interest deductibility a loophole \u201Cmisunderstands how an income tax works. \u2026 No Government would dream of taxing a farmer on gross sales while ignoring the cost of feed, fertiliser and fuel. Yet that is precisely the logic applied to landlords.\u201D Even noted tax expert sir Deborah Russell said it would be an arbitrary rule, designed to achieve a non-tax purpose. I agree with Deborah Russell: we should keep the law as it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223e704ac1261337c5995d0e0a4f315a96\u0022\u003EFinance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002257edcf5ae52799a8619db02f0707da66\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022 data-id=\u002295a5b22ff00570c7a1e9866858357a9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295a5b22ff00570c7a1e9866858357a9e\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana) (14:28)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister of Finance\u003C/span\u003E: \u003Cspan lang=\u0022ton\u0022\u003EM\u0101l\u014D \u2018aupito\u003C/span\u003E, Mr Speaker. Does she stand by all her statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u002294fac08a80ce097add7ce6ce7441170a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294fac08a80ce097add7ce6ce7441170a\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (14:28)\u003C/span\u003E: In context, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fd6041fa7d0f0cc422bedae9c1cbdde\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by her claims, in 2024, that New Zealand is seeing the green shoots of recovery, when, on her watch, business liquidations are up 70\u00A0percent, with 3,023 placed into liquidation in the year to March?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226923cd82a385db3e6af8ed1920edc57a\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, but I would also note that the number of new businesses registered outpaced those liquidation figure in those recent statistics as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0345b583f4f5fc4aa2983b103ad30d5\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Is the cost of living getting better or worse when there was $43.4\u00A0million of KiwiSaver hardship withdrawals in June alone, up almost 20 percent in just one year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222649e69bb16393d5e81930827eac80ef\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The latest data that we have on inflation\u2014which of course is the biggest driver of the cost of living\u2014shows that food prices, and food inflation, has continued to ease. Food prices increased just 0.1 percent in July, meaning that annual food inflation has fallen to 1.9 percent, which is its lowest rate since December 2024\u2014and a lot lower than the double-digit food inflation experienced under the last Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a35b1f3db850d492b8fccba80b56f83f\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Why, then, is there $43.4 million of KiwiSaver hardship withdrawals in June alone, if inflation was just the issue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226e3392b00ca1b48684b996aa7472603\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I do want to acknowledge that anyone who is put in a position where they feel they have to withdraw their KiwiSaver funds is someone that I have a lot of sympathy for, and that is not a situation that we want to see happening readily. Of course, the question is: what do we do to ensure that fewer Kiwi families are in that situation? Our Government\u2019s answer is to ensure that we are fuelling economic growth that drives wage growth and job creation\u2014whether that\u2019s fast tracking major projects, whether that\u2019s the Investment Boost tax credit to promote investment and wage growth, and whether that\u2019s reducing red tape, these are the sorts of policies that support a stronger set of economic outcomes for all New Zealanders. The reverse is also the case. If we were, for example, to impose billions of dollars of new taxes across the economy, that would send a wrecking ball through the hopes and aspirations of Kiwi families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c69f152e9ffb17fe3fb3801517735b82\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Why, then, with record net migration, higher unemployment, and low growth\u2014while Kiwis are doing it tougher\u2014has her Government resorted to calling them and New Zealand businesses \u201Cbottom feeders\u201D, \u201Csoft\u201D, \u201Cimpatient\u201D, \u201CC-listers\u201D, and \u201Cwet\u201D, \u201Cwhiny\u201D, and \u201Cinward looking\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022863e600604ddecc44098a7cb3d348343\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I reject the latter part of the question, but I would simply point out this: the people who stand in this House and say they are on the side of everyday workers better be consistent with their policy positions, because if those are the same people who are saying they want to whack $5 billion worth of additional tax on businesses who are striving to increase wages and increase jobs, and if those are the same people who will oppose fast-track developments\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242f63d2d7d229fc1a0f42158d4e0b639\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yup, that is enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f30af7fa959c866e16a421597240eaa1\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014creating jobs, then those peopleare not on the side of growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d0732794897301ac030bb76ad93af4c9\u0022\u003EPrime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220015d797606c929798d78a0ca74eff93\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225e65b51223cf4eb8aa02a982d92f8959\u0022 data-id=\u0022f985a39284e52b5d1cab214262ed94b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e65b51223cf4eb8aa02a982d92f8959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f985a39284e52b5d1cab214262ed94b6\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green) (14:31)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EPrime Minister\u003C/span\u003E: \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003EE tautoko ana ia i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero me ng\u0101 mahi katoa a t\u014Dna K\u0101wanatanga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003E[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EDoes he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022 data-id=\u00224abb2daa9055ff36afe125afa010ef50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224abb2daa9055ff36afe125afa010ef50\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister) (14:31)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and I just want to reassure the member that this Government won\u2019t be implementing an asset tax, a rentals tax, a gift tax, an inheritance tax, or a 45 percent top tax rate. We think that would take New Zealand backwards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e65b51223cf4eb8aa02a982d92f8959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ad7f43973609e35943810e348e3e021\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Do hospitals have safe staffing levels?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022721c54e7957a61c44beba733e71f2ac4\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m very proud of what this Government has delivered, with 2,100 extra nurses and 600 extra doctors in our healthcare system, a big outreach to nurses to invest in nurse prescribers and nurse practitioners, and a big investment in primary care. I think we\u2019ve got more to do in healthcare, but we\u2019ve made some very good progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e65b51223cf4eb8aa02a982d92f8959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022347732b573e50360cb666a6553411cee\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Is he proud that three nurse roles in neonatal intensive care in Wellington were not approved for six months, or that chemotherapy treatments had to be shut down from not having enough nurses to provide treatment due to deliberate delays in approving hires for vacant roles?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022878515d38940b4f66d1cb24e702ea08d\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: What I\u2019m proud about is that, actually, this is a Government that\u2019s invested more money into healthcare, it\u2019s a Government that has invested more in workforce into healthcare, and, importantly, the healthcare system is starting to improve on the five key targets and metrics that we\u2019ve set it. We have a real challenge with the bureaucracy in the middle, but we\u2019re making progress on that too, and I\u2019m sure the member would want to support less bureaucracy in healthcare so that we can get funds and people out to the front line.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e65b51223cf4eb8aa02a982d92f8959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0e45bf25238570710e7bc02b1d811aa\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: How can he be proud of his promise that front-line services wouldn\u2019t be impacted by Public Service job cuts when we are hearing from workers in the system that \u201CWe are required to quietly cut and restrict services in order to prevent waiting lists from blowing out.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acdd1df0216943d858916a7771baa971\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m actually proud of the fact that we\u2019ve set targets and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf9e1eb91ef740868a26db659355f7e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022592da264e7f44bca4d9005e6ce29cced\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Where was the proof behind that allegation in that question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac667c46591933d25088363c57ebda04\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I beg your pardon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf9e1eb91ef740868a26db659355f7e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d67705737fdb7bfcc2b3f55b9d5ab06\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Where was the proof or evidence behind the allegation in that question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed977169160cc6e7fa0c8c4fa7390d0d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There doesn\u2019t need to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf9e1eb91ef740868a26db659355f7e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212f799b5469ea901e627d23eb19f2380\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, there does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022177261c1b545fb667a7f04b98c22d0dd\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, there doesn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf9e1eb91ef740868a26db659355f7e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022798981219588818c72543920aed25dcc\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: You can\u2019t say anything you like in here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d91be48e620cfd0a1230b906f7c944b2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry, but there doesn\u2019t. We\u2019re going to have the question again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e65b51223cf4eb8aa02a982d92f8959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b053548af5ee7132b0c07bd99dda8c0\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: How can he be proud of his promise that front-line services wouldn\u2019t be impacted by Public Service job cuts, when we are hearing from workers in the system that \u201CWe are required to quietly cut and restrict services in order to prevent waiting lists from blowing out.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3408b3a600d35caba24ea0ddb84207d\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: What I\u2019m proud about is that this Government is focused on health outcomes, and we have prioritised on making sure we have shorter wait times in emergency departments, we\u2019ve made sure that we get immunisation rates for under-twos focused, and we\u2019ve made sure we\u2019ve got access to first specialist appointments, elective surgeries, and faster cancer treatment plans. On all of those metrics, we\u2019re making progress. That matters because we want to see things and outcomes improve for patients.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e65b51223cf4eb8aa02a982d92f8959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022919414f61a1191c82a5f96bfde7d5a3f\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Has a single nurse told him that there are safe staffing levels in front-line hospitals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f8d030cac8bcd24e164983548bb98d7\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I can tell the member they certainly appreciate having 2,100 more nurses in the system than when we came to Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002252ea05a5493f30e15235b49957d6e39a\u0022\u003EMedia and Communications\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224d12eb737207fab12305178c8ddfa040\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002288978fb9592a4911a8e47eae04d164f3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9da6155537403ba8db66509acd35d8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002288978fb9592a4911a8e47eae04d164f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9da6155537403ba8db66509acd35d8a\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula) (14:34)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister for Media and Communications\u003C/span\u003E: Is he considering implementing a streaming tax?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u0022c586289a3de9dd50d41648c13c061bfc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c586289a3de9dd50d41648c13c061bfc\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Media and Communications) (14:35)\u003C/span\u003E: No [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsTerm\u0022 style=\u0022font-style: italic\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E].\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f34e01976136718d97a63f4795cf23e8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No one else is talking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002288978fb9592a4911a8e47eae04d164f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280ae56137d56f3c068dc7f72b6747a63\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: What would a streaming tax mean for New Zealand consumers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7d1e963887ab49c195a0945da267b03\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, any tax imposed on streaming platforms would ultimately risk being passed onto consumers\u2014the people who are trying to watch Netflix, or Apple TV, or whatever it is. The Government\u2019s view is that New Zealanders pay enough tax already, and the last thing that we need is even more taxes, so that is why we\u2019re not going to be adding to the pile of taxes that New Zealanders pay, and part of that is being careful about our spending and that means we don\u2019t have so much tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002288978fb9592a4911a8e47eae04d164f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d7d0f47f81d092e481c98a4da20287a\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: Instead of a streaming tax, what is the Government doing to support local content?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1f966d5d28e1ee372aefa4d94253dcc\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241c1ed0c5d97bcc272785172299d6440\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, a large amount and, rather than taxing viewers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4037d54c50fc8aa5e58ab4ab498f5b8\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Does Willie still want a tax?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e8708e44b0aadf84559b9602ab0cb94\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and I acknowledge my counterpart Willie Jackson who is\u2014[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c56a4210f51579929bd84c5dbe81a30\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, look, I\u2019m sorry; one Minister answering only would be useful. Start again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eca37e15bd035b8656ab32402771726a\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I do acknowledge the member Willie Jackson, who is obviously upset about not having this tax, but he lost the argument, I presume. What the Government does invest is more than $400 million a year in the screen sector, including $85 million a year for NZ on Air, and around $280 million through screen production rebates. Also, this Government is moving legislation to improve prominence on new television sets that turn up. We\u2019ve also removed Sunday advertising restrictions in order to help the broadcasters. There\u2019s been a lot of work done to help New Zealand local content, but we\u2019re not going to be adding new taxes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002288978fb9592a4911a8e47eae04d164f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a315f93570c91bb67e690417fd45db74\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen any recent proposals for a streaming tax?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022167885eb25c273072268bcddb1d2a68a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This needs to be very carefully answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f11f6ef6ab6e5f63d4210029282953c\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as we discussed yesterday, there was a member\u2019s bill and it did refer to a \u201Csmall levy\u201D on these giant streamers that will create a substantial revenue stream. The only point I\u2019d say is this: things can start small that become big. If we look at Canada, for example, a 5 percent tax was introduced and then\u2014lo and behold\u2014it was 15 percent. The first series was at 5 percent and the next series was at 15 percent, so there\u2019s always a risk when taxes and levies are introduced that they will continue to expand. We\u2019re not going to take that risk, and that\u2019s why we\u2019re not having a streaming tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c73e4f21c1570289f32c469902f6f835\u0022\u003EHealth\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d3a00a702120f246d1165a2ecd049e6b\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9e0a932ccdbd17dd887a8dbdc0e9731\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9e0a932ccdbd17dd887a8dbdc0e9731\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour) (14:37)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister of Health\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that the net increase in Health New Zealand full-time equivalent nursing staff between the quarters ending March 2024 and March 2026 is 54 fulltime-equivalents?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9c8957585a32069a8beb595d2e5ed2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9c8957585a32069a8beb595d2e5ed2d\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health) (14:38)\u003C/span\u003E: In respect to the member\u2019s question, all of this information is published, and I refer the member to Health New Zealand\u2019s Health Workforce Information Programme (HWIP), which reports on the growth of our healthcare workforce every single quarter. I\u2019m advised that it shows Health New Zealand now employs 2,162 additional nurses on a net basis compared with September 2023, which equates to a net increase of 1,640 fulltime-equivalents (FTE). There are more nurses working in our public hospitals today than in previous years. Those are Health New Zealand\u2019s own published figures and they\u2019re freely available. That work has not stopped. I\u2019m further advised that as at 28 July 2026, advertising for Health New Zealand nurse roles was under way for 1,422 FTE, with a further 297 at interview stage, 154 at reference-checking stage, and 235 offers under active consideration by candidates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7ea98ca0704cc4ef1c1eeef104a5db2\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, sir. This is a very similar circumstance that occurred previously with this exact same Minister: with a primary question on notice that gives a specific time frame, he deliberately chose not to answer that question and talked about something of his own choosing. The primary question on notice specifically asks between the period of \u201CMarch 2024 and March 2026\u201D, neither of which he responded to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e07d4b3caa296355754a690df615ae7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m not sure about that, to be quite frank with you. I was listening very, very carefully for some of the reasons that you\u2019ve outlined earlier. I think the Minister gave a very comprehensive address to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022425f976626be0ac1cc522b6913269193\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, sir. The Minister talked about a time period before that in the question, and a time period after that in the question. Speakers\u2019 rulings are quite clear that for primary questions on notice, they should be addressed to a more correct standard than is required for supplementaries. If that were to be a supplementary question, then yes, indeed, it would have been addressed. But if we have a situation where Ministers can choose to answer whatever time frame they wish, what is the point in question time if they\u2019re not required to respond directly to primary questions on notice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f19e9ec349dfe69d42b915aaf85f85a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ll take this a bit further, but the question does actually state a specific outcome and asked him to confirm it. He clearly didn\u2019t. The Minister may make a further comment on this answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a28c9e8c71a06ad8ac3199dae3762754\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in my answer, the number is publicly referred to and available in the Health Workforce Information Programme, which reports on the growth of the health workforce every single quarter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe26ff2cdc9ee144992d79f9397a464f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not a\u2014I would have thought that while you can\u2019t be asked to give a yes or no answer, something more specific about the two dates that are mentioned there would be helpful to the order of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022465907141d5eedb7f50cc77b8df9e74a\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, well, the answer to the question, as I said, the number is available. It is published in the Health Workforce Information Programme for the quarters ending 24 March and 26 March, at that number of FTE.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242a42d36043a8dc0181e6657c4309a72\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You can\u2019t give an answer that leaves the House none the wiser. None of us have that information in front of us, and I presume the Minister does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022723aaad5ad68704d35927ca7645bf064\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: And I said the number is publicly available in the Health Workforce Information Programme for those two quarters at the FTE stated in the parliamentary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022626f7d1c75c55990d75e7e8071a1d761\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think that was a yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209abf721cc9f4f76e01b16f4af4748b4\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Well sir, with respect\u2014point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8b712f3efe4c2f82710b7340e789f61\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister just said it is as stated in the parliamentary question. Can\u2019t get clearer than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bbd14a303db21eec46938eac384e378\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister referred in his answer to the primary to HWIP data, which is not in a parliamentary question answer. That is published data by Health New Zealand, so it would be incorrect for him to refer us to a written parliamentary question answer, and I think the question remains unanswered for that reason.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfa6b64c2dc148e2b2e5a29b49a70230\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. The way I just heard it is the Minister actually said that the number is correct as stated in the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef2de3d9ae156a2083f8f7111e23e6b5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I think maybe I could be a little helpful here. The Minister did appear to be quoting from an official document. Therefore, I\u2019d ask that he table it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf38f2a47747483add7f89976fff1b8d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister quoting from an official document? He appears to be not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b318f1bd7f8ceaabf1aad0c82c1d6d3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Then how can he claim that, then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022798d26db0817b15b4695a9716f4f489e\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s published; it\u2019s online.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208c932d5fe71143609bbfdbd0d18356e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, hang on\u2014no, no need. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf32fa4e898f478d5bd27c32e6a8ce32\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Is the answer to my primary question \u201C54\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221988ade7fcf499b60db6c2b3eb6df0b2\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsTerm\u0022 style=\u0022font-style: italic\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022441462d33329f5ac7905840431ab04c6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall, no one else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed6f3f76d16c3b8756187dbe305d7033\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Why did he say nursing vacancies reduced by referring to a different time period from the time period specified in my question on 28 July?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f9af8f41a0f1dba676aff8aa2f96984\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, because the member is cherry-picking a set of dates. The reality is I, in my answer to the question, talked about when this Government came to office and what the numbers are now. That member needs to take actual note of the answers that I am giving. As I said, I\u2019m further advised\u2014because at the heart of this question is: is the Government focused on recruiting the nursing workforce New Zealand needs? In my primary answer, I said we have 1,422 nursing roles currently being advertised, a further 297 at interview stage, 154 at reference-checking stage, and 235 offers under active consideration by candidates. I\u2019d also note that the number of vacancies in September 2023 was 2,632; that is now down to 1,601. The turnover rate has dropped from 11.7 percent to 8.4 percent. The vacancy rate has fallen from 8.6 percent to 5.2 percent. The workforce is being strengthened under this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022845405b2d3cc4dc50775cb261e66e5a9\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Why did he cite, on \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EQ\u002BA\u003C/span\u003E, the nurses hired since coming into Government when nearly all of that growth happened before the election, and nursing fulltime-equivalents has grown by just 54, as he conceded today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c755a25149339c5d197bc3db7586ab3e\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not sure if she remembers, but this Government came to office in October 2023, after the election, and the number of nurses that have been employed by Health New Zealand is 2,162 additional nurses since September 2023, which equates to a net increase of 1,640 fulltime-equivalents. Those are the facts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fcb1448331b1e789257e4663e88a4b2\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Can he explain\u2014[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf0c0b14d7f0296f3e146b0af665626a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Everyone, just calm it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f7be7e38175e0820cb0744e6fd7c0bc\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Can he explain to New Zealanders why released documents show he knew about the hiring freeze all along and he has been deliberately deflecting answering questions about it in the House and in media?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f6c569ec7b80868b51217e925be6b81\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: It was a document that was provided to RNZ from the PSA, which is a union campaigning for a change of Government, from March last year, when I\u2019d just become the Minister of Health. Since then, we\u2019ve got a new board, we have a new CEO, and we have established devolution, devolving decision making back down to the regions and districts where recruitment should take place and unravelling the mega-bureaucracy put in place when she was Minister of Health. [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262d4cb4380d48f0d79611cc27d8b4746\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a minute. That general barrage has to stop, or the questions will stop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f8f254fc1391eb803d08b307bbfc021\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Why doesn\u2019t he come clean and admit there has been a hiring freeze at Health New Zealand since the moment he has been Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228307a94f5f21e9d71a521f4031836ba8\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: There is no hiring freeze at Health New Zealand. In fact, the facts speak for themselves, and there are currently 1,422 nurses\u2014[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b8131b0d468529f13b94ce150281f81\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re going to hear the rest of this without having comment from any other part of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224105082390e47523034d8d63530139de\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: There are 1,422 nurses currently being advertised at Health New Zealand; 297 at the interview stage, 154 at the reference-checking stage, and 235 offers under active consideration by candidates. This Government is having to unravel the complexity of the bureaucracy put in place by the previous Government when they decided\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1945a4f23daeef0dd7a6c027ab7ff9d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019ll do. [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E] That\u2019s enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002243c15fe05fc4697071a68c4f837bd4e1\u0022\u003EAgriculture\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e7802aba777dbab27fc7fa39942abbd7\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022694c3cef004e40d78a26712dce80070d\u0022 data-id=\u00227858e813ba29a031c1ed6b18aa4c5d08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022694c3cef004e40d78a26712dce80070d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227858e813ba29a031c1ed6b18aa4c5d08\u0022\u003ESUZE REDMAYNE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei) (14:48)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister of Agriculture\u003C/span\u003E: Are the Government\u2019s tax policies supporting the primary sector to grow; if so, how?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228d19240ed9ca4f5597e2bb804e0e32fb\u0022 data-id=\u002296d4dec4ffc02aff47ea124e5286b534\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228d19240ed9ca4f5597e2bb804e0e32fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296d4dec4ffc02aff47ea124e5286b534\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture) (14:48)\u003C/span\u003E: The Government\u2019s tax policies are supporting the primary sector to grow, as it hits a record $64 billion in exports this year. For example, the Government\u2019s Investment Boost tax policy has allowed the primary sector to invest in their businesses and grow production. A tax expert said this Government policy reduces costs of capital investment, making it easier for agribusinesses to grow. A rural accountant has said it rewards forward-thinking businesses that are upgrading gear, reducing risk and improving output. New Zealand does not grow by taxing more and investing less. Investment Boost is an important part of lowering taxes and boosting the rural economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022694c3cef004e40d78a26712dce80070d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022842f937ccff492a95135c2589ce43381\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he seen about how the Government\u2019s tax policies are supporting the primary sector to grow?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228d19240ed9ca4f5597e2bb804e0e32fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248216916567db883c7207bf04dc6c775\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Investment Boost is driving investment across plant and machinery, vehicles, irrigation, and environmental practices, which is driving regional growth. There are reports of this being a game-changer for rural New Zealand. Pumps and irrigation, for example, immediately have a 20 percent tax deduction under Investment Boost. As the member will know from her electorate of Rangit\u012Bkei, water distribution enables greater productivity on farms. Without Investment Boost, significant harm would be done to rural businesses and the rural economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022694c3cef004e40d78a26712dce80070d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ad7e9acdad9559ee1f47af3e2aef0ef\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen any other reports about how the Government\u2019s tax policies are supporting the primary sector to grow?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228d19240ed9ca4f5597e2bb804e0e32fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022823741c0981896d83bcb84295336dcba\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Earlier in our term, we removed the ute tax, that unfairly penalised farmers, foresters, and growers. At the time, Federated Farmers said, \u201CTaxing farmers in this way only added additional cost to productive businesses for no material advantage.\u201D A commercial vehicle lease and finance company reported many tradies and farmers telling them that the ute tax unfairly penalised them from needing a rugged and practical work vehicle, and there was a rush from tradies to buy new utes when it was taken away. And, Mr Speaker, you will remember, as I do, when Groundswell organised a nationwide howl of a protest: 60,000 people turning up to say no to the ute tax\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3adcb404c3d239be3a3b9cca62e00bb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just don\u2019t bring me into your answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228d19240ed9ca4f5597e2bb804e0e32fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a551ee0fb16c56bf063619ef38744a79\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise. I thought I saw you at it. I\u2019ll stop now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291f3fad40196d7a308c59f3009e4d094\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s wrong\u2014yes, carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228d19240ed9ca4f5597e2bb804e0e32fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d15b0249788e4a06b38fbc31ffcdfde8\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: A return of this tax would harm every farmer, every grower, every trader in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022694c3cef004e40d78a26712dce80070d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202dd2525d7c63b9ae6f4f7b82136fa23\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen any other reports about the effects of taxes on the agricultural sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228d19240ed9ca4f5597e2bb804e0e32fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6b7bf0b40b17939a1757e9ed7c2ae34\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, yes, I\u2019ve seen media reports about an intention to scrap Investment Boost and to bring back the ute tax, and this would be devastating for the farming sector. It would impose a tax on tradies who need a ute for work, or farmers who need one to run their farms. The reports referred to a senior Labour Party candidate in Mt Albert, Michael Wood\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e717278862352af59b507c9bcc31d96\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s good. No, leave it there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b6e0dfba423cc87f7b308c8cab81b6ca\u0022\u003ESeniors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d025796657bd6d3e1c77c9a3866d1878\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022 data-id=\u00226e65609f7987407f80125457fad3e370\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e65609f7987407f80125457fad3e370\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri) (14:51)\u003C/span\u003E to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBold\u0022\u003EMinister for Seniors\u003C/span\u003E: Is it still the Government\u2019s plan for its policies to reflect the \u201Creality\u201D that \u201Colder people are a vital and growing part of New Zealand\u2019s workforce, economy, and communities\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022 data-id=\u002235c7c0e9fc6c7a023f73038fa889425b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235c7c0e9fc6c7a023f73038fa889425b\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Minister for Seniors) (14:51)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, particularly in the context in which that quote was made, off the back of the latest New Zealand Institute of Economic Research business of ageing report, produced for the Office for Seniors. The report showed that the value of unpaid work by older people has passed $20 billion a year; the paid work by over-65s contributes around $9 billion a year; self-employment for over-65s adds a further $5 billion a year; older people pay more than $13 billion in tax a year; and consumer spending by over-65s is close to $55 billion a year. Everyone knows that older New Zealanders make an incredible contribution to our society, and the business of ageing report puts some serious numbers behind that contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022971199f91afa2362bc0f555e936782ae\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: How is it so that her Government values seniors when 51,000 seniors report costs as a barrier to seeing their GP?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022050fddedc9b530e1eea263e6a564637c\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely this Government recognises that those that are on fixed incomes, relying mostly or exclusively on superannuation, are doing it tough. That is why this Government is approaching aged-care reform to ensure that we invest in keeping people well and improving access to aged care, and, most importantly, that we grow our economy. What we won\u2019t do is put a capital gains tax on our older seniors, to ensure that they have a lower cost of living.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f37216edded2a1b094bae00b03fefe65\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: Do seniors\u2019 greater health needs and vulnerability to the cost of living make them less or more impacted by GP costs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b2fd134976675a16d6a5b31831b8944\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve just said in my previous answer, those older New Zealanders that are impacted by fixed income will of course do it tough, and we are doing the practical things to ensure we reform our aged-care system to improve access, to improve the quality of living for our older New Zealanders. One of the things that is important to note is that when we saw a problem, we actually looked to reform the aged-care system, not appoint an Aged Care Commissioner to commentate on the problems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4be6c8a7390d5b9c67a20d4e2351805\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: Does she accept that when cost causes seniors to delay seeing their GP, health problems can worsen and ultimately require expensive hospital or even emergency care?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224047979f64a7311d38067bac6e2d099b\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, which is why I\u2019m so proud of the aged-care report produced by the ministerial advisory group that addresses just those points. That is why we have sought, under the New Zealand First - National coalition agreement, to seek bipartisan agreement to improve the system. We will continue to work on that because, on this side of the House, we are the party of solutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276552ff33d7e1d2af209cbb06c936f44\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: Will her Government commit to providing seniors with three free doctors visits per year; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228468ebeb781a5eeb8b76cd7d8b22f27\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: Having traversed, quite at length, the challenges of accessing a GP appointment in the first place, promising three free GP visits to everyone, regardless of whether they need it or not, puts an added drain on the system. What I\u2019ve said, repeatedly, is we want practical solutions that are delivering, that will improve the health outcomes for older New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022350aa290c8a1bf634be8d33f89726fda\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: Will her Government commit to providing all New Zealanders with three free doctors visits per year; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f36277cb754947fa93977a31a33abd49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022613c0fa587ad837e0e11be03d8771d3c\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: What we will commit to is improving health outcomes for New Zealanders. Access to good care, access to early diagnosis, access to surgical treatments\u2014that is what we will do, and we will ensure that is delivered by this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c1faae36c922a843a9fdf49dcbbb7c7b\u0022\u003EDebates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002290774ceb4330659e3d7bf9742222a0f7\u0022\u003ELoss of Winter Energy Payments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002203b21a3eca55038180176293141b342d\u0022\u003EUrgent Debate Declined\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022478583389793a49a606ee0a8f29f738d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I have received a letter from Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March seeking to debate under Standing Order 399 reports that people have lost their winter energy payments. This is a particular case of recent occurrence for which there is ministerial responsibility. I understand that this matter will need to be rectified by legislation. That will provide the appropriate opportunity to debate it. The application is declined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ll take 30 seconds for those who have to leave the House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022deaf603c4f277af1f064df3fb871c085\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b54822d0c116a501ad25d1d84ea8546\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014for other business to do so quietly before I call on a member to move a matter of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266ce48132d0a2a81e3a69b357aa9085e\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f73379a3a31e2a03e929a0788ecb6a0e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Interestingly, I was on my feet, which might explain why I didn\u2019t recognise the member at the time. However\u2014the Hon Willow-Jean Prime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022 data-id=\u0022e65c3a86916386e18bc51261f70e8001\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e65c3a86916386e18bc51261f70e8001\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour) (14:56)\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. There was a report in the media recently where the Minister has not committed to amending the legislation. She has not given a time frame for that, and it will potentially be in the next parliamentary term, so we won\u2019t have the ability to debate this when the legislation comes to the House, because she hasn\u2019t committed to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1ec9da0c83d00f113be61bbb79a31cb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, thank you for pointing out your view on that matter. It\u2019s not changing my opinion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIf people want to leave the House, do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c07c95a945c5ce3cb92b4495a506257\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u002209da4dec37f56b95290eb299a358178d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209da4dec37f56b95290eb299a358178d\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (14:57)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the House take note of miscellaneous business\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EHere we are, 80 days or so out from the general election, and MPs are rightly talking about how we address the challenges New Zealand faces. There, on the Opposition benches, they never saw a problem they didn\u2019t think they could solve with somebody else\u2019s money. When there\u2019s a problem that needs solving, the left are here, and their answer is new taxes. The list of new taxes is growing. First of all, we\u2019ve got that old chestnut, the capital gains tax\u2014that\u2019s on the table. Then we\u2019ve got an asset tax\u2014Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick put that one on the table\u2014and an inheritance tax, because why not tax death? You can tax people till they die, then tax them when they\u2019re dead too. Then we\u2019ve got a higher tax rate because why not scare off all the doctors and engineers and tell them to head on the first plane to Australia? Why not have a gift tax and a higher corporate tax rate\u2014why not tell all the businesses to shut down?\u2014a digital tax, a rentals tax so that the tenants can keep paying through the nose, and a land tax too?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, that\u2019s the list of new taxes I\u2019ve assembled, but I have to admit that it\u2019s getting a bit confusing, because the list is growing by the day. At the heart of the confusion is: which of these taxes is Labour in favour of and which ones aren\u2019t they in favour of? It\u2019s pretty difficult to tell because, fundamentally, you can\u2019t trust Labour on tax. They have a long-term love affair with tax, and they\u2019re like people under Chris Hipkins who\u2019ve sworn off the love affair, don\u2019t have the love affair, but keep falling off the wagon. The problem is that they have all these unfunded promises and they know they need to sneak through some new taxes to pay for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve had quite a few flip-flops, haven\u2019t we, in the past few days? The first one that I found quite beautiful was: are they or are they not taxing Kiwis\u2019 Netflix subscriptions? Well, the streaming tax\u2014Hipkins was definitive: it\u2019s not policy. There\u2019s a small problem: not only had Willie Jackson taken the tax to caucus and had it approved by caucus; he had also submitted it as a member\u2019s bill. Don\u2019t worry. Just believe Chris Hipkins when he says, \u201COh, no, no, no. That was never on the table.\u201D But, you know, I have to commend Carmel Sepuloni because she was the most honest on this topic. Do you know what she told us this morning on Morning Report? She was asked about the streaming tax, and she said, \u201CWell, look, as you get closer to the election, you do need to be careful about the optics of what you\u2019re promoting.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGood on Sepuloni. She said the quiet bit out loud, which is \u201COf course we want to do all these new taxes, but we\u2019re just not allowed to talk about them. Chris Hipkins has told us \u2018Don\u2019t talk about the new taxes. We need to keep them quiet.\u2019\u00A0\u201D, and, of course, he knows that playbook well. Who remembers him in the last election campaign saying, \u201CNo way I\u2019ll ever do a capital gains tax. Absolutely not\u2014not on my watch.\u201D, and he\u2019s saying to all of these guys: \u201CDon\u2019t worry, when you say that stuff it, doesn\u2019t really mean anything, because look at us now. We\u2019ve got a capital gains tax now.\u201D\u2014don\u2019t you? Actually, what you say on tax cannot be trusted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll give you the next example: the ute tax. They didn\u2019t campaign on that in 2020, but that didn\u2019t stop them implementing it, and it\u2019s not stopping Michael Wood from going doorstep to doorstep in Mt Roskill and saying, \u201CLet me tell you about one of my greatest hits: the ute tax. Wasn\u2019t that a winner?\u201D That\u2019ll be back\u2014the ute tax will be back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThen land tax\u2014and this is another hit from Willie Jackson. Wow, he\u2019s really on the tax train. He was asked by Ryan Bridge: \u201CWell, what about the Opportunity Party\u2019s land tax?\u201D, and he said, \u201COh well, we wouldn\u2019t do it at that rate.\u201D, and so Ryan Bridge said, \u201CWell, so what percentage of land tax would you accept?\u201D Willie grinned and said, \u201CWho knows?\u201D I guess it just depends on how many unfunded promises they want to make in the next 80 days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat this actually comes down to is a party on the other side who fundamentally believe that the way to make New Zealand a better place is to punish the things we need: punish the savers, punish the investors, and punish the people who do the right things, who grow businesses, who create jobs, and who start enterprises. Well, National says no. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe say we need lower taxes. We need to back the hard workers, back the investors, back those who save, back talent, and back opportunity creation, and we are able to do that because we hold ourselves accountable for delivering with your money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022 data-id=\u00223a521c315a36e06091ed1b3145b836cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a521c315a36e06091ed1b3145b836cc\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition) (15:02)\u003C/span\u003E: It would appear that auditions to be the next Leader of the Opposition have begun already, because that was a speech from someone who has given up on governing the country. Five whole minutes in the House, and not once did she mention anything this Government has achieved, probably because she could not find one good achievement to talk about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EDo you know what else Nicola Willis did not mention? Christopher Luxon. Not once\u2014not one mention of the Prime Minister. So desperate are they to not talk about their own leader, she spent five minutes talking about the Opposition. They don\u2019t want to talk about their own track record. They don\u2019t want to talk about the turmoil and the chaos that is the leadership of their own Government, and so they spend their time making things up about the Opposition, instead of tackling the challenges facing the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIf we had a Minister of Health that was focused on actually delivering, you know, healthcare for New Zealanders, we might not have the crisis in the health system that we have now. If we had a Minister for social development that was focused on making sure people get paid their entitlements on time, we might not have 15,000 pensioners going without the winter energy payment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe real-world consequences of that are very clear to see. Older New Zealanders are sitting at home not turning the heater on because they\u2019re worried they can\u2019t pay the power bill, and this Government says, \u201COh well, that just happens.\u201D Louise Upston was told about that problem 10 weeks ago\u201410 weeks ago. One would think that a Government focused on the interests of New Zealanders would actually do something about that, but we know that\u2019s not what the National Party have been focused on. They\u2019ve been focused on fighting for their own jobs, not fighting for New Zealanders. There have been 15,000 pensioners shivering at home, not able to pay their power bills, because this Government cut their winter energy payment in what it claims was a mistake. It was simply incompetence from a Government that\u2019s not focused on the job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThose members promised that they were going to fix the cost of living. What have we seen instead? The price of bread\u2014which Christopher Luxon didn\u2019t seem to know yesterday\u2014is up 72 percent under this Government. Butter is up 85 percent under this Government. Company liquidations are at a 15-year high. Youth unemployment is at a 30-year high. KiwiSaver hardship withdrawals are at the highest rate ever under this Government. Those are people who are desperate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBut this Government said they were going to get the country back on track and they were going to fix everything. They keep going on about the previous Government, so let\u2019s compare the track records, shall we? Prior to the election, by now, unemployment was forecast to be at 4.8 percent. What is it now, after they fixed it: 5.5 percent\u2014after they fixed it. Government debt\u2014because they go on a lot about Government debt, don\u2019t they? Despite the fact that half the debt that the country currently has was accumulated under National Governments, they do like to go on about this a lot. By now, in the pre-election update, it was going to be down to 39.6 percent of GDP by 2027. What\u2019s it going to be now by 2027 under this Government: 45.6 percent. After they fixed it, it went up. The overall deficit\u2014remember they were going on about, \u201COh, we\u2019re going to get the books back in balance.\u201D? Well, by now, if the previous Government\u2019s forecasts had been correct\u2014because we\u2019d been re-elected\u2014we\u2019d have a $1.5 billion deficit. It would be going into surplus next year by $2 billion. What\u2019s happened since they fixed it? Anyone want to guess? Well, the deficit this year is going to be $15 billion. Not $1.5 billion\u2014$15 billion after they fixed it; and next year, when it was supposed to be back in surplus, instead, it\u2019s going to be $14 billion in deficit. Goodness me, imagine what being off track might look like these days. If they think this is what being on track looks like, they need a reality check.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAnd, of course, remember: growth, growth, growth, that\u2019s what this Government is all about. 2026 was forecast to have a growth rate of 3.7 percent before this Government got elected. What\u2019s it forecast to be now? Anyone want to guess? 1.2 percent. They\u2019ve cut it to a third of what it was going to be\u2014so much for growth, growth, growth. But we now know what\u2019s really been on the Prime Minister\u2019s mind: not only keeping his job but, apparently, if you put a cycleway between his apartment and Parliament, he needs to charter a limousine to come across the road in order to get here, because with the cycleway in the way, apparently, he doesn\u2019t know how to cross the road. Clearly, if he can\u2019t figure out how to cross the road, maybe his colleagues were right\u2014maybe he should give up the job. I\u2019ll tell you what, in just a few more days, he\u2019s going to be giving it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002211e9e1f818754d97b60bba4b18e5dc03\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec870fdad89a814ce12157e867e7ec55\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002211e9e1f818754d97b60bba4b18e5dc03\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec870fdad89a814ce12157e867e7ec55\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON (Minister for Rural Communities) (15:07)\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve got to feel sorry for Chris Hipkins. He\u2019s sitting on a powder keg of taxation expectation from his colleagues: the Trojan Horse, of course, the capital gains tax that will metastasize over time, already $5 billion in getting rid of Investment Boost, bringing back the ute tax, Willie Jackson trying to introduce the streaming tax, and does anyone believe Barbara Edmonds\u2019 soothing sounds as she tries to placate Marama Davidson and Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick? Has she not been paying attention as they rage against the machine day in, day out in here as they look to bring in a wealth tax, a capital gains tax, an inheritance tax, and a rental tax, killing inspiration and killing business with a wrecking ball through our economy? If you need any more\u2014banning nitrogen fertiliser, well, that will be ruinous for our agricultural powerhouse; or keep a cap on The Opportunities Party who seem intent on introducing full-blown communism. Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, what are they on about? No one really knows, apart from standing for ethnically dividing New Zealanders into two. Good luck with that, Barbara Edmonds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EKiwis do not want to be taxed more; they want a fair go. New Zealand First is the party with the courage to take on the vested interests that are sucking Kiwis dry. The supermarket duopoly, we\u2019ll break them up; the Aussie banks are going to get some much-needed competition; and we\u2019ll break up and go after the gentailers as well, those entrenched entities that are using their market position to feast off the paychecks of hard-working, everyday Kiwis at will. New Zealand First is the only party that has the courage to take them head on. Tweaks to the status quo will not be enough. We have them fair in our sights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand has an infrastructure deficit, as has been well traversed. There has been a recently announced road of national significance north of Auckland\u2014$3.6 billion for 26 kilometres of road. We announced this week the next phase in planning for the Auckland Harbour Bridge, which will cost eye-watering sums of money, but we must not forget about rural and provincial New Zealand. It\u2019s where 82 percent of our merchandise exports come from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAt the same time as those announcements were made, Mayor Rob Scott of Southland was threatening to rip up rural roads and return them to gravel\u2014hundreds of rural bridges to maintain. That does not look like fixing the basics and building the future; that looks like a provincial powerhouse not getting its fair share. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAt the South Island conference, it was revealed last week that the South Island is only getting 11 percent of the road transport budget, yet we produce 30 percent of the exports. We need the Hope Bypass. We need the Woodend Bypass. What chance does the badly needed Mosgiel bypass have to feed the newly instituted inland port that was invested in by the Regional Infrastructure Fund?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere is a saying: \u201CBy their deeds you will know them.\u201D New Zealand First has always been the party that has used its political capital\u2014every ounce of it\u2014to return money back to regional New Zealand, whether it be the Provincial Growth Fund in a previous Parliament, or the Regional Infrastructure Fund in this Parliament, getting infrastructure investment ring-fenced for provincial New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI just came back from the Chatham Islands last week where I was opening a new airport and the finishing of the runway, a mix which will fortify the island and futureproof it. We also announced upgrades to wharf infrastructure and upgrades to their fuel storage facilities. We put in new wind turbines there to give them renewable energy. It\u2019s that sort of investment in regional New Zealand where New Zealand\u2019s wealth is created\u2014the farmers, the fishers, the foresters, the horticulturalists, the miners, and soon to be drill, baby, drill, when we get out there with New Zealand First\u2019s $1 billion investment commitment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis is where our internationally renowned tourism locations are situated. It\u2019s critically important that they have the infrastructure. They want a fair slice of the pie in regional New Zealand. They know that New Zealand First is the party that will always back the regions, has always fought for their interests, and will be taking a huge platform of regional economic development through the $100 billion future fund going into the next election. New Zealand First: for the regions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022 data-id=\u00229d8c5cca83f2e38cb403071a3b4a3d3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d8c5cca83f2e38cb403071a3b4a3d3f\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health) (15:12)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, thank you, Mr Speaker. Wasn\u2019t it interesting listening to Mr Hipkins\u2019 speech, where he was desperate to talk about anything else except for his taxes\u2014absolutely desperate to talk about anything else except for his taxes. He sounded more like someone sitting on the side of the road barking at passing cars rather than providing solutions for the problems facing New Zealanders. All I heard in his speech was lots of complaining, lots of problem definition, but no solutions for the future of this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI tell you what: in around 80 days, New Zealanders will be going to vote in the voting booths. They will be going to the election and they\u2019ll be asking the question, \u201CWhat on earth has Chris Hipkins been doing for the last three years? Nothing. Well, he has been up to something\u2014he has been up to something. Sometimes he\u2019s been up to things he\u2019s not quite aware of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOne thing he is aware of is that he said before the 2023 election that Labour, under his leadership, would never, never, ever put in place a capital gains tax. Well, at least he\u2019s had the honesty of his conviction to get out there and tell New Zealanders that actually, no, Labour will bring in a capital gains tax if elected at the election this year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBut there have been other things that he is just not quite aware of. On Sunday, Nicola Willis put out a press release pointing out that Labour was campaigning on a streaming tax. Chris Hipkins gets down on the tiles and says, \u201CNo, that\u2019s not true. That\u2019s hysterical. That\u2019s absolutely false. That\u2019s fake news.\u201D Well, lo and behold, Willie Jackson had a member\u2019s bill in the ballot for a streaming tax. He had it in the ballot box. Not only was it in the ballot box but it had 34 names of Labour MPs signed up in support of it, one of which was Chris Hipkins. Chris Hipkins was supporting a bill he didn\u2019t even know was in the ballot box as of yesterday morning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWell, New Zealanders know this is just scratching the surface of all the taxes that Labour\u2019s got coming. Of course, they have an $18 billion funding gap for all of their freebies.  I\u2019ll tell you what: a freebie is not a solution for the problems facing this country. You don\u2019t fix the challenges facing New Zealand by throwing money around. You don\u2019t fix the problems facing New Zealand by simply promising a bunch of freebies. Of course, that is the only solution the Labour Party is taking to this election\u2014freebies here, freebies there, and freebies everywhere. The reality is every single one of those freebies needs to be paid for somehow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve now heard Chris Hipkins and the Labour Party out there saying \u201CThe only tax we\u2019re taking to the election is a capital gains tax.\u201D Well, every single person in this House knows that\u2019s not true. Labour has already said, \u201CWe\u2019re going to axe Investment Boost\u201D, a $5 billion tax on businesses up and down this country. That\u2019s an additional tax they\u2019re taking to the election, and everybody knows that they can\u2019t wait to reverse the changes on interest deductibility. They want to put in place a tax on renters once again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022922122535d77cb7b04fdc99769f72601\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Just on you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224619d537020b5623417c4111f245bbac\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Last time they were in Government, the average rent went up by $180 per week\u2014Mr Jackson, you remember that because that\u2019s what you did. Under National, since we got rid of the renter\u2019s tax, we have seen flattening rent increases because of our policies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOf course, this is the other thing that everyone knows: Labour needs the Greens and they need Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, and they need the Opportunity Party\u2019s taxes, too. So there\u2019s not only a capital gains tax, a digital services tax, a business tax, a tax on 45 cents in the dollar on income over $160,000 coming, an inheritance tax, a gift tax, a rental tax, an asset tax, and, of course, the Opportunity Party\u2019s land tax\u2014because not only do they want to tax you until you die, they then want to have an inheritance tax to tax you when you die, and the land tax will be there to tax the cemeteries so that you keep paying after you die. And, of course, the streaming tax and the ute tax\u2014well, we know that those will come back, because Willie Jackson can\u2019t wait to bring in a streaming tax and Michael Wood is out there door-knocking his heart out for a ute tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENational is campaigning to lower the taxes on New Zealanders\u2014keep taxes low. We say no to Labour\u2019s taxes. Party vote National to stop Labour\u2019s taxes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022 data-id=\u0022570ff949fbae67dd4b40fbfe99037be7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022570ff949fbae67dd4b40fbfe99037be7\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour) (15:17)\u003C/span\u003E: Today, I rise to congratulate the Hon Chris Penk. What a good man. As our leader said, the only member of the National Party caucus with the intestinal fortitude to say out loud what every New Zealander\u2019s been saying for the last 18 months\u2014where are you going?\u2014that this Prime Minister is not up to the job. And his reward? Kicked out. Because that\u2019s what you get when you launch a one-man coup, isn\u2019t it? You get kicked out. But as Mr Peters said\u2014making some sense, for once\u2014in his whole lifetime he\u2019s never seen a one-man coup.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe all know it wasn\u2019t a one-man coup. They were all on it. The problem is they couldn\u2019t work out who would be the leader, and they lost their nerve, and they lost their numbers. And I\u2019ll be coming to you shortly, Mr Meager. As Matthew Hooton said\u2014he called them \u201Cvillains\u201D. I prefer a more accurate term; I think \u201Cgutless wonders\u201D would be a better term. Traitors, not just to the National Party traditions, as Chris Finlayson has said, but to that fine young man, Chis Penk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow who were these useless detractors? Who were they? Oh, well, the boy wonder\u2019s just left. We heard him with Jack Tame talking about the Prime Minister. He said the Prime Minister\u2019s working hard every day. The problem is he couldn\u2019t name one thing that the Prime Minister had done\u2014not one. Then there\u2019s the future first M\u0101ori Prime Minister in his mind, James Meager. When asked whether he supports the Prime Minister, he talked about the All Blacks, he talked about rugby, he talked about everything apart from the Prime Minister. \u201CMr Meager, do you support the Prime Minister?\u201D \u201COh, those All Blacks are going well. That rugby is going well.\u201D Oh, Mr Meager thought he was on his way back to Cabinet, but down the tubes\u2014down the tubes he went. Then there\u2019s \u201CGoldie\u201D\u2014then there\u2019s \u201CGoldie\u201D\u2014admittedly a Prime Minister supporter, but when he was asked whether he would be interested in the job, he thought, \u201CWell, I don\u2019t really do much anyway. I\u2019ve got all these portfolios, and Willie calls me the \u2018Minister of Doing Nothing\u2019. I\u2019m No. 7 on the list and, if I was the Prime Minister, I\u2019d be No. 1.\u201D Did \u201CGoldie\u201D make himself available? Well, yes, he did\u2014yes, he did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThen we come to the two big players\u2014the two big players\u2014the \u201CBish\u201D and Erica Stanford, the Minister who, according to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Herald\u003C/span\u003E, was going to wear the crown while Chris Penk wielded the knife. The problem was that the \u201CBish\u201D lost his nerve\u2014and lost the numbers\u2014and the only knife he used was the knife he used to cut Chris Penk\u2019s throat. Poor Chris Penk, a good man.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhich brings us to Erica Stanford. Who will ever forget the image of her walking through Wellington Airport, sashaying her way through Wellington Airport like she was the Queen of Sheba. She thought she was on the way to the prime ministerial job, but she didn\u2019t know Nicola was behind her\u2014the Minister for women\u2019s affairs, coming behind her. \u201CDo you support the Prime Minister?\u201D Not a word\u2014not a word\u2014of support for the Prime Minister. She thought she was on the way to glory, until the Minister of women\u2019s affairs said, \u201CWell, we\u2019re good mates, great friends. She\u2019s just not prime ministerial material.\u201D Poor, poor Erica\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de06f32bb969854ee23328a60b937518\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Under the bus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e968c1334f0a40bfbd05d661e979ba38\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be6a30b6d038deecff6e40b7ff772160\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Under the bus\u2014under the bus. Shamed and thrown under the bus by the Minister of women\u2019s affairs. A shambolic coup fell apart\u2014a disgraceful coup. Shame on this party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EBut that\u2019s this Government. It now spends more time managing itself than managing the country, and on the very day this Parliament debated the leadership coup, we had 15,000 pensioners suffering. That\u2019s the story this coup buried. That\u2019s what this Government has been doing while its senior Ministers have been counting numbers in the corridor. Chris Penk did the country a favour. He held a mirror up to the Prime Minister and asked him to have a look. The Prime Minister sacked the man holding the mirror. In a few months\u2019 time, the voters of this country will hold up their own mirror, and this Prime Minister, and every single one of the Ministers I\u2019ve named, are not going to like what they see. Kia ora, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222544abfebc3e866ba0080650f618183c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The honourable Carl Bates\u2014sorry\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022add7ca820a41b7d8db4bf10c36afc96b\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7798315f5fb0b144f55b35025383e64\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a minute. The member will wait for me to call him: the member for Whanganui, Carl Bates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022 data-id=\u002242f61ab325d8a40e069486cfe36417e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242f61ab325d8a40e069486cfe36417e2\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui) (15:22)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. To have a good tax policy, it helps to have people who actually understand tax. The Labour Party doesn\u2019t have a single chartered accountant in Parliament, nor does Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori or the Greens. It\u2019s a bit like a hospital without doctors, a school without teachers, or the Labour Party without unionists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMaybe\u2014maybe\u2014that is why, when it comes to economic policy, the only answer they seem to have is \u201Ctax, tax, tax\u201D. No matter what the question is, the answer is always the same. Need more spending? \u201CTax.\u201D Need a new programme? \u201CTax.\u201D Need to pay for another promise? \u201CTax.\u201D As we head towards 7 November, New Zealanders are looking at the Labour Party, the Greens, and Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori and their menu of capital gains taxes, wealth taxes, inheritance taxes, land taxes, digital taxes, streaming taxes, and business taxes. It\u2019s pretty clear that the Opposition\u2019s manifesto has more tax proposals on it than a McDonald\u2019s menu. Next, you\u2019re going to hear the Labour Party\u2019s campaign ad say, \u201CWould you like tax with that?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe real issue here isn\u2019t any one tax; it\u2019s the pattern of taxes\u2014and ever more taxes, at that, I might add. The Labour Party, the Greens, Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, and Opportunity have built an agenda around new taxes and higher taxes. Labour is also being questioned on bringing back that ute as well. The question for New Zealanders is simple: when the answer to every problem is another tax, who pays? The answer is households, the answer is workers, the answer is farmers, the answer is businesses, and the answer is families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat makes the Opposition\u2019s \u201Ctax-athon\u201D especially concerning is their tax stack. This refers to the fact that some of the taxes stack on top of the other. This is where understanding tax becomes important. Yet, Labour doesn\u2019t understand it. Labour and their mates just want more of it. They don\u2019t understand how these taxes will destroy our economy, nor do they understand how they\u2019re going to eat into the hard-earned savings of every New Zealander. Let me give you an example of the Opposition\u2019s collection of taxes and how they stack together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELook at their proposed taxes on multinational tech companies. The Greens want a withholding tax on offshore profits; Labour wants a digital tax\u2014different names, different mechanisms, but both potentially hitting the same businesses. This \u201Ctax-athon\u201D attitude of Labour, the Greens, and Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori brings with it this broader mindset\u2014and speaks to this broader mindset\u2014that when the Opposition needs more money, they don\u2019t ask \u201CHow do we grow the economy?\u201D, they ask what we can tax next.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENational has a different approach. Instead of taxing investment, we are encouraging it. I\u2019ve spoken with businesses making decisions because of Investment Boost: the transport operator who bought seven new truck-and-trailer units and expanded their fleet; the concrete company that invested in a new forklift to create and lift their productivity; the farmer who bought new tractors to get the job done easier. That is how you grow the economy; not another tax, not another levy, not another money-grab dreamt up in the Labour Party\u2019s caucus room.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EUltimately, this comes down to a choice. It comes down to a choice between Labour, the Greens, and Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, along with Opportunity\u2019s approach, to more spending, more borrowing, and more taxes. National\u2019s approach is to grow the economy, back investment, create jobs, lift incomes, and help Kiwis get ahead. New Zealand doesn\u2019t need another tax; we need economic growth, we need higher incomes, and we need a Government that understands that you cannot tax your way to prosperity. When Labour sees a problem, they reach for a tax. When National sees a problem, we reach for growth. Only by growing the economy can we help all Kiwis get ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022 data-id=\u0022630919b0fea5373d92bbf4c3da32632b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022630919b0fea5373d92bbf4c3da32632b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Minister for Courts) (15:28)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Today, I stand on behalf of the ACT Party to talk about the integrity of our democracy and the system that we have here. ACT has serious concerns over recent allegations of electoral fraud in Manurewa. This has recently been reported in the \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Herald\u003C/span\u003E, and it is quite alarming. I expect that all parties across the House should be concerned by what allegations have been printed by the \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EHerald\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EElected Manurewa local board member Raewyn Bhana QSM has laid a formal complaint with the Auckland Council, and she has passed that complaint on to New Zealand Police and the Serious Fraud Office. The complaint comes from a whistleblower who has told her that he was part of a team of people who, over seven nights, went around people\u2019s letter boxes and started taking electoral voting forms from those letter boxes. He and others then went to an address, where they opened up those ballots and they filled them in. Where some of those electoral voting forms were wet, they even put them on heaters to dry them out, so that they could fill them in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe whistleblower has then suggested that a number of them took handfuls of these voting ballots and went to several supermarkets around the area to deposit them. This is of absolute concern, not only because this has happened but also because of the threats that have now occurred towards Raewyn Bhana QSM and her whistleblower. Raewyn has been told to watch her back, and the whistleblower has indicated that there\u2019s been a gang hit placed upon him. Police are making inquiries into this issue, and of course the independence needs to be tested and verified by New Zealand Police as they look into this very serious matter. We should not pre-judge exactly what has happened here, but equally, New Zealanders should be concerned, because caution must not come at the expense of complacency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe reason why I feel that this is so important is because liberal democracies like New Zealand\u2019s are actually not the norm in the world. The Economist Intelligence Unit Democracy Index 2025 indicated that there\u2019s only 26 full democracies around the world. More than half of the world\u2019s population does not live in a democracy. Liberal democracy means we have a right to vote in free, fair, and regular elections. We have a history of doing so. In 1853, the first members of this House of Representatives were elected. In 1867, all M\u0101ori males aged over 21 were allowed to vote. In 1879, universal male suffrage, for all men over the age of 21, was instigated. In 1893, universal women\u2019s suffrage was also implemented. We were the first in the world, and we did all this before 1900, and I note in 1974, we lowered the voting age to 18, and in 1990, the Bill of Rights actually affirmed the right of adult citizens to vote in genuine, periodic, and free elections. When I look around this Chamber, I see the plaques that represent the lives that were lost by so many representatives of New Zealand: our soldiers who fought to allow us to stay in a free and liberal democracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIf these allegations are proven, someone is deliberately taking away the rights of a person to have their voice, their choice, and their vote heard. A stolen voting paper is not just mail; it represents stealing the democratic voice of individuals, that is then being taken and used by someone else. The right to vote is the right to be heard, and the right to have a say. The right to vote is the opportunity to choose a representative for you, and the right to vote also gives the people the power to remove people that they don\u2019t want there. The right to vote also holds people accountable\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220b60f3de86f94cdcba16d6caa82b94e5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6d37204ab63fdfcbf69ffbaca7b3c2a\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u0027Connor\u003C/span\u003E: You took that away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b25de5f8c73d6188d2dc4d96aa7259e1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I didn\u2019t take anything away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002216829a90e47644e3809ecc77bed3916d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc5c9fcf4b6734bfc07b379abfdf91de\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to the people that they serve. These allegations strike to the heart of New Zealand\u2019s democracy, and we must make sure that those voices and our democracy are protected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022 data-id=\u0022e13e12b100f1dacda0b8d05b3f73ccae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e13e12b100f1dacda0b8d05b3f73ccae\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour) (15:33)\u003C/span\u003E: \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003ET\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare\u003C/span\u003E. This week we have heard about the Government\u2019s rushed changes, through urgency, which left 15,000 pensioners without their Winter Energy Payments. I just want to list off some of the temperatures from MetService in the last month: 1.7 degrees in Wellington, -2.8 degrees in Hamilton, -4.6 degrees in Christchurch, and -5.1 degrees in Taup\u014D\u2014the electorate of the Hon Louise Upston. It\u2019s a disgrace, that during some of the coldest months this year, 15,000 pensioners and veterans lost their Winter Energy Payment because of National\u2019s shoddy lawmaking processes. Losing this payment meant that our most vulnerable New Zealanders have been living in freezing homes, losing this payment at this time, during a cost of living crisis, where the cost of living is soaring, food prices increasing, and the cost to see a GP also increasing. This is what National delivers to our kaum\u0101tua and kuia, to our elderly citizens. National bungled the Winter Energy Payments for Kiwis, making it tougher for them through winter months. This is the human cost of their rushed lawmaking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EToday, we have seen a report from the New Zealand Council of Christian Social Services. The report is titled \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThe Older Persons Poverty Monitor\u003C/span\u003E. What that report shows is that 76,000 elderly people were accessing Special Needs Grants; 25,000 elderly people living without the essentials; 51,000 elderly people putting off a GP visit due to the cost. Yesterday, in answers to questions in the House, the Minister said, \u201COh, it was less than $300.\u201D Well, that means a lot to these elderly people, who as we see from this report released today, are putting off going to see the doctor because of the cost. We know they were not turning on their heat pumps or their heaters because they had not been receiving this support. In fact, to share a quote that I received, a person wrote to me about their 98-year-old mother, who was affected by this botch-up: \u201CShe received a letter of suspension in her mailbox on Saturday, 25 July 2026, and said she was stressed, anxious, nervous, sleepless, and worried because of these changes.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThese law changes were rushed through without proper scrutiny and without consultation. Yesterday, the Minister and the Prime Minister gave what I think are pathetic apologies to those who have been impacted by something that was of this Government\u2019s doing. What did they do? They threw their officials under the bus. The Minister said it was a policy mistake; the Prime Minister said it was an IT issue. Well, the Minister also said that this probably wouldn\u2019t have been picked up if it had gotten more scrutiny. What I\u2019d like to point out for the House today is I actually went back through the entire \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EHansard\u003C/span\u003E, and it was being picked up\u2014and if it had gone to a select committee, it would have had a better chance of being corrected there, because in fact, Ingrid Leary, who is in the House today, raised it in her contributions. Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March actually had an Amendment Paper on the table to expressly exclude the Winter Energy Payment, but no. It was rushed through urgency, no proper scrutiny, no select committee process, and then we have 15,000 veterans and pensioners impacted by this, losing their Winter Energy Payment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Minister should take responsibility for this. It was her legislation, rushed through urgency without proper scrutiny, and without proper process. The other thing is that the Minister said she found out about this on something like 14 August. Actually, she was emailed by the Labour Party 10 weeks ago, and her office ignored it. It was in the title: Winter Energy Payments could be impacted\u2014or are being impacted\u2014by this. No, ignored\u2014and so these elderly people, like I said at the beginning, were sitting there in the freezing cold, not receiving something they should have been entitled to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOh, the irony though. The Government, the Ministers on the other side, they\u2019re entitled to their entitlements, but what about our senior citizens, who were entitled to this but were ripped off because of botched lawmaking processes. Kia ora Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c562dc86e974914b8878595e580f138\u0022 data-id=\u0022eecc7a05e37efb1a493006c5fe7abbfe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c562dc86e974914b8878595e580f138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eecc7a05e37efb1a493006c5fe7abbfe\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki) (15:38)\u003C/span\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003E:\u003C/span\u003E Tax, tax, and more tax. This is Labour\u2019s answer to paying for all their so-called free promises. Well, let me tell you: nothing comes for free. I teach my children that, and we are learning that nothing comes for free. \u201CSugar hit\u201D economics is not the way to help hard-working New Zealanders get ahead. It is just a short-term fix. Between Labour, the Greens, Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, and the Opportunity Party, they\u2019re proposing nine new taxes. Let\u2019s name a few of these nine new taxes. A capital gains tax: the Kiwi dream of owning a bach, Labour wants to tax it. Higher income tax: doing well at work and earning more, the Greens want to tax it, 45 percent. Inheritance tax: if your grandparents leave you something when they pass away, they\u2019ll tax it. A gift tax: want to help your kids get into their first home? The Greens want to tax it. A streaming tax: you watch Netflix, they\u2019ll tax it. A digital services tax: if you\u2019re on Facebook, they\u2019ll tax it too. A rental tax: own a rental, they\u2019ll tax it. A business tax, a land tax, and let\u2019s not forget: the ute tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThose hard-working farmers, tradies, and anyone out there owning a ute\u2014they want to introduce a ute tax, again. We scrapped it. We\u2019re not punishing all those hard-working tradies and farmers out there, and we don\u2019t want to live in a country where your hard work is taxed and taxed\u2014everything is taxed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe National Party is the party of lower tax. National is the party that provides tax relief to hard-working New Zealanders, and Labour are already saying they\u2019ll take away this tax relief that we\u2019ve worked so hard to implement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s take Investment Boost. Our Government worked really hard to introduce Investment Boost to support businesses to grow jobs and opportunities. Investment Boost offers 20 percent deductible tax relief for businesses investing in capital assets. This is practical, it\u2019s targeted, and it stimulates growth. It creates jobs and it helps us lift incomes in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re seeing real results, and I speak firsthand of seeing the real results in Hawke\u2019s Bay, the fruit bowl of New Zealand. Just last week I was out in Kelston Orchards with our amazing Minister of Immigration, Erica Stanford, and we saw tax relief and Investment Boost in action. It\u2019s enabled them to invest in the Recognised Seasonal Employer (RSE) scheme accommodation and to house over a hundred RSE scheme workers each season. The RSE scheme ensures they have the seasonal workforce when they need it to pick the fruit at the optimum time so that they can get it off to market and help grow our economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s also enabled us to grow many, many permanent jobs for New Zealanders, and it was impressive to see our growers using Investment Boost to invest not only in the RSE scheme accommodation but in cool-store innovation, packhouses, automation, and robotics. Recently, I opened the Mt Erin cool-store, and they were also using Investment Boost and providing a lot of new jobs\u2014permanent jobs\u2014for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe want to see more of this growth and, of course, we\u2019ve got to remember that Investment Boost also flows into other areas of the economy. It provides jobs in the civil and contracting area because, of course, they\u2019re getting the flow-on effect of the growth of our horticulture sector. Just recently I visited Stephenson Transport, a wonderful stock truck company in Central Hawke\u2019s Bay. They\u2019ve also used Investment Boost to invest in their trucks, and there are many, many more stories where we\u2019ve seen landscape companies investing in robotics, scrub-cutters in Hawke\u2019s Bay, and cafes investing in new equipment because it\u2019s this type of tax relief that grows jobs and grows opportunities and it lifts wages. That\u2019s what works to build the future of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022 data-id=\u00226a85817bb4cdd30c093f6e4d4508c66f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a85817bb4cdd30c093f6e4d4508c66f\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central) (15:43)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for that segue, Catherine Wedd, because I think that that quote that you said in your speech around it being the Kiwi Dream to own a bach is just so far out of touch with reality. Most New Zealanders\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dae115d5400b3bd2bdaa92bbede76ddf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It wasn\u2019t actually me that was speaking, but carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a65ee2fd2bc905e1529af03b5c2edbec\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL\u003C/span\u003E: Most New Zealanders, and particularly those of my generation, are really worried that we won\u2019t even be able to afford a house or a family home, point blank\u2014period\u2014without even considering the idea of one day ever being able to own a bach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m glad you segued that because that\u2019s exactly what I want to talk about, because for the last two days in this House, I\u2019ve heard Chris Bishop get up and tell us that it is the best time ever to be a renter, that things have never been better for renters, and that rents are so affordable, which is just in total conflict with what Renters United! and over 3,000 renters said in the report that came out over the weekend.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat they told us is that for 40 percent of renters, their biggest issue is the cost of their rent; for 42 percent of renters, their homes are still damp, cold, draughty, and mouldy, despite healthy homes standards coming into place; and 11.5 percent of renters said that they spend 80 percent of their income on rent. I hope that in this House we can all agree that that\u2019s not good by any means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENot to mention that this whole general debate has been about all of these taxes, the so-called rental tax\u2014all of these different taxes. Again, it\u2019s been a real slap in the face to have the Minister of Housing get up and talk about how great it is to be a renter when the reason that rents have stagnated or flat-lined in this country is not because of any policies or law changes that this Government has made; it\u2019s actually because everybody is leaving, at a rate of 200 New Zealanders per day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf0317ac7440003d59d52b7cbec3f49f\u0022\u003EHon James Meager\u003C/span\u003E: The supply and demand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bfb3f4a987e97a1c8331dc597630952\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL\u003C/span\u003E: Do you want to know why rents are declining in Wellington?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022618a04d3609d39d728412693a328674a\u0022\u003EHon James Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Supply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226327c36b5aaee90674ea067815bd43a9\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s because thousands of people have been laid off from their jobs, James Meager, and that\u2019s not a funny joke. There are no jobs here in Wellington and people are leaving, and that is why there is not a lot of competition in the rental market. That is not something to get up and brag about, and, actually\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c158b22a1361964e58dd136cd3c6609\u0022\u003EHon James Meager\u003C/span\u003E: So you want more supply?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dda3210464ef566a91fdb50147e6748\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not as simplistic as a supply conversation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268a78b89e8d6e8fc297989334690f108\u0022\u003EHon James Meager\u003C/span\u003E: You just said that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f0168c6f7bde03c148f076f2e4836cb\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s not, because if everybody is leaving, of course rents are going to go down, because there\u2019s no workers to fill those homes. Simple economics\u2014which I thought that that side of the House understood.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAnyway, what I really want to talk about is the fact that this Government changed the rental laws two years ago, and we don\u2019t really hear a lot about that any more, do we? But I want to talk about the fact that more than 60 percent of renters have said that their lives have not improved\u2014not one bit\u2014since the Government changed the laws and reintroduced no-cause evictions and decided to rob the 100,000-plus lowest-paid working women of pay equity. They\u2019re happy to give $15 billion of tax cuts to landlords, and they will rob the lowest-paid workers in this country to pay that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBut let\u2019s also talk about the fact that since the Government changed the rental laws, the number of Government MPs that have bought investment properties over that side of the House has grown. Let\u2019s talk about the fact that ACT MP Parmjeet Parmar  has bought five new houses since they changed the rental laws. Let\u2019s talk about National MP Katie Nimon, who has bought three new houses since they changed the rental laws. Let\u2019s talk about National MPs Erica Stanford, Simon Watts, Tom Rutherford, Joseph Mooney, Shane Reti, David MacLeod, and Grant McCallum, who have all bought another home to rent out since they changed the rental laws and changed rental tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227d19573a8ba4d8283b17374978c8ea2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb42024b3a05ecf35b3c3c35c588dad7\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t rent my place out, thank you. I live in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6f4d041119e74d427f0155f84ec1061\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL\u003C/span\u003E: Or let\u2019s talk about the National and New Zealand First MPs, including Grant McCallum, who bought a house in Wellington so that they can pay themselves the accommodation allowance while taxpayers pay their mortgages off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227d19573a8ba4d8283b17374978c8ea2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e71488d4656d693b138f085970ea0506\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Speaker. I have not bought a place to rent it out, and I do not rent it out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f479e988d26782e7c828ab3e354bcc20\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: What is the point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227d19573a8ba4d8283b17374978c8ea2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221583c1661b55e74177b53a32aa80be4d\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s misinformation. What she\u2019s saying is incorrect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d84938fae077968f2f8cad48f63b32bb\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL\u003C/span\u003E: All right, I\u2019ll read it out. The \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003ESpinoff\u003C/span\u003E reports that National and New Zealand First MPs Carlos Cheung, Jamie Arbuckle, Hamish Campbell, Ryan Hamilton, Mark Patterson, and Todd McClay all bought new houses\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227699eb74e74efd38763c6627be6e4cb6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry to interrupt the member, but I\u2019m just going to get some advice. Right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df94d946ac1409b162f4ff3272ea3750\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL\u003C/span\u003E: OK, I\u2019ll proceed. It\u2019s not a personal inference, actually. If the Government has changed the laws to make rental properties and rental housing that we rely on a commodity\u2014something to make disgusting profit from while the streets are lined with sleeping bags and while people are paying 80 percent of their income in rent\u2014that is disgusting behaviour. We need more people in this House who are not investment property speculators, because that is the reason why my generation will never be able to buy one single house, let alone a bach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227d19573a8ba4d8283b17374978c8ea2\u0022 data-id=\u00228de24bbd80ac0ca6289e21cc386fecec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227d19573a8ba4d8283b17374978c8ea2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228de24bbd80ac0ca6289e21cc386fecec\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland) (15:49)\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Speaker. I would like to make a personal statement to correct\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da75b6831c1cd611023195f2a31c37bd\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ll need leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227d19573a8ba4d8283b17374978c8ea2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287589d4622da1ede099c5dc041ac8394\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM\u003C/span\u003E: I request leave, please, to make a personal statement to correct the comments from that member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a77bf7581630a9247a873746b11cb93\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227d19573a8ba4d8283b17374978c8ea2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276579a2168fa692b85c7b63f76b351ec\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM\u003C/span\u003E: The member opposite was concerned that I had bought a place to rent it out. I did not buy a place to rent it out; I purchased a place so I can utilise it to service the people of Northland when I\u2019m in the upper half of my electorate. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d390960fbe15010695c641c10ca99d6d\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223218c9bda990109cd0866134a79d68d4\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: There is no point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220111f62b05220234de674bea06c3501e\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the personal statement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8821def00fd17d6acabd62711482153\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b618b847a57b4afb94b76eaea9e042a5\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3a05e9ecd1d770d099ca74b302db29f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b618b847a57b4afb94b76eaea9e042a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3a05e9ecd1d770d099ca74b302db29f\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill) (15:50)\u003C/span\u003E: \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EMonopoly\u003C/span\u003E is a classic multiplayer board game where we move around the board to buy, trade, and develop properties with houses and hotels. But imagine there\u2019s a new version of \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EMonopoly\u003C/span\u003E where every time you make progress, someone adds another tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s start the game. You pick your favourite \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EMonopoly\u003C/span\u003E piece, and if you choose a ute as your icon, congratulations\u2014you may need to pay a ute tax just for choosing it. Then you move around the board and, finally, you land on the property you want to buy. You think \u201CGreat, I\u2019m investing in my future\u201D, but wait: there\u2019s a land tax, asset tax, and capital gains tax waiting for you. All right, if you\u2019re lucky, you go for a few rounds and you are finally are able to build a business and you manage to build a hotel. You think you\u2019re going to create jobs and take a risk, but there\u2019s another tax waiting for you: the higher corporate tax. Whoa! Tax everywhere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EYou think now that you\u2019ll work harder. You want to earn more and try to get ahead. Sure\u2014that\u2019s the right thing, right? Not so fast: the Green Party just proposed another 45 percent top income tax rate. Well, you ask yourself, with all these taxes, how can you save money? If you\u2019re lucky, you\u2019ve managed to save some, but wait, you\u2019ve got another one coming for you: a wealth tax. Then you think, \u201COK, I\u2019ve got a little bit more money now. I would love to help another player. I want to give them some money or an asset to help them to get back into the game.\u201D, but wait: you may have to pay a gift tax just for being generous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAt this point, you may say, \u201CThat\u2019s enough, I\u2019m getting off this game.\u201D, but even leaving the game may not be so simple because your family may face an inheritance tax. You\u2019re like \u201CWell, I\u2019m going to be bankrupt. Let\u2019s go to watch TV to relax myself.\u201D Finally, you sit down, you turn on the TV, and you try to turn on your Netflix and watch some drama. Whoa! There is another streaming tax coming for you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt looks like everywhere you go, there\u2019s another tax waiting for you, all right. You ask, \u201CWhat\u2019s the point? Why am I still playing \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EMonopoly\u003C/span\u003E? Maybe I shouldn\u2019t work at all.\u201D I have to wonder how many families in Mt Roskill are expected to keep paying more and more taxes when the cost of living is already putting pressure on their household budgets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand used to be a country associated with dreams, opportunity, and aspiration. We encouraged people to work hard, to start a business, to invest, to innovate, and to build something better for themselves and their families. But the Opposition is, basically, telling me that we\u2019ve got to turn this philosophy upside down: \u201CWe\u2019ve got to tax them. We need to make sure that for every single dollar they earn, we tax them.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis is not the New Zealand we should be building. New Zealand already has enough taxes. The question is not \u201CHow can we find another way to tax people?\u201D; the question should be: \u201CHow can we make better use of the money we already collect?\u201D How can we deliver better infrastructure, how can we deliver better healthcare, and how can we make sure every tax dollar from hard-working New Zealanders can get their return? They want a Government that respects the money they earn, they want a Government that rewards hard work, they want a Government that encourages investment and innovation, and, most importantly, they want a country where there is still a pathway to get ahead. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis is what the National Government is focusing on. We have very, very clear Budget responsibility rules: we will make sure of our return to surplus and we will control the net debt and also control the Government\u2019s spending because we know that a responsible Government isn\u2019t about finding another square on the \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EMonopoly\u003C/span\u003E board where we can take more money. It is about making sure the money we already collect is spent wisely and delivers results. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe don\u2019t need to add another tax to the board; we need better Government, better value for money, and better outcomes for New Zealanders. This November, you have a choice: a Government of more tax and more wasteful spending, or a Government here, focused on fiscal discipline, growing the economy, and investing in New Zealand\u2019s future. Obviously, the answer is very clear: on this side, we are fixing the basics and building the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226f607d4079164946af0eb589f5753d1b\u0022 data-id=\u00224e545c31753063ddcf1d3ae324179cff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f607d4079164946af0eb589f5753d1b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e545c31753063ddcf1d3ae324179cff\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour) (15:55)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. There are two anchoring roles in foreign policy in New Zealand. The Minister of Foreign Affairs is the person who stands in Washington, in Beijing, in London, in Canberra, and in Suva, and tells the world what New Zealand\u2019s values are. Diplomacy is the hallmark of his job, and when that individual creates friction in our relationships, the stakes are high for all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere is another significant role in foreign affairs: it is the Prime Minister\u2019s role. Now, something that\u2019s probably not well known by members is that for much of the 20\u003Csup\u003Eth\u003C/sup\u003E century, the Prime Minister also personally held the role of Foreign Minister: Fraser, Nash, Holyoake, Lange, Moore, and Palmer. There\u2019s a reason: because we are a small trading nation, our external relationships are existential. One in four jobs are linked to trade. Our reciprocal trade with China is $40.1 billion. The roles now sit technically apart, but they still sit very closely together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Prime Minister has responsibility, and so what should a Prime Minister do when a risk emerges in foreign affairs? Well, three weeks ago, we had the Minister of Foreign Affairs make statements\u2014racist comments\u2014in the House. The Prime Minister acknowledged that they were racist. He acknowledged they were offensive. He didn\u2019t immediately contact the Foreign Minister\u2014not until five days after the comments were made. He didn\u2019t contact his Chinese counterparts at all to reassure them of the continuation of a respectful relationship. Instead, for a time he argued that it\u2019s not within the purview of his oversight as the comments weren\u2019t made as Foreign Minister, and so the big question is: does the Prime Minister in these circumstances have the authority to act? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EHe does on either of two foundations. The first is the \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003ECabinet Manual\u003C/span\u003E. The \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003ECabinet Manual\u003C/span\u003E is drafted broadly for a purpose: Ministers serve at the pleasure of the Prime Minister. He absolutely has the ability to make the call\u2014in fact, it is his duty. Secondly, on 5 August, Minister Peters said in the House, \u201CI stand by all my comments as the Minister of Foreign Affairs. I also stand by my comments as the New Zealand First Party leader.\u201D, effectively affirming, with his ministerial hat on, the racist comments he made a week earlier. He was almost inviting the Prime Minister to call him out\u2014but nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI, like others, believe that it is not tenable for the Foreign Minister to retain his role, but perhaps the Prime Minister has considered that. If he decided to leave the role as it was, should he on the basis of risk still have taken some sort of action? I say yes because there are two real risks here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere have been two formal representations made to New Zealand about Minister Peters\u2019 comments: one in a phone call from the Chinese embassy to New Zealand on 30 July, and one in phone call from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Beijing to our Acting Deputy Head of Mission in Beijing on 31 July. We also know that there are sufficient reports in Chinese media itself in terms of taking offence at these comments. But the Prime Minister has chosen not to reach out to the embassy, nor to colleagues in Beijing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe most serious issue here\u2014the most serious issue\u2014is not a debate on Minister Peters\u2019 right to free speech; it is about the unwillingness of our Prime Minister to assume his role as chief custodian of our international relationships. New Zealanders deserve better than this. International colleagues deserve better than this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAs for Labour, we will not react in the room; we will not turn our back on the duty of diplomacy.  Responsible foreign policy requires respectful, clear dialogue\u2014clear in our independence and values, especially in today\u2019s changing and uncertain global landscape.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022acc8d6c10f7a015b28e68f8a00726862\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225a3fc36c6d18c1f6ccee8817b5d42277\u0022\u003EExtended Sitting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f537d6f7e9d0407792892b239af9ec7f\u0022 data-id=\u0022de48a88b2e229838a584d154d2f3b27e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f537d6f7e9d0407792892b239af9ec7f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de48a88b2e229838a584d154d2f3b27e\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Deputy Leader of the House) (16:00)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the sitting of the House today be extended into tomorrow morning to consider the following Government orders of the day: consideration in committee of the Disability Support Services Bill, and the second readings of the Social Security (Jobseeker Support and Accommodation Supplement) Amendment Bill and the Serious Fraud Office Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 13; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b2e589fc82b8ef09689499f7b7a9bb6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Appropriation (2026/27 Estimates) Bill and the Disability Support Services Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226156bb1671b33c3a440647d54d391146\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002255d3887119a231108bc93e3c31d9e541\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2026/27 Estimates) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228220f784d9b02aa944f3a136f4bb7c6e\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u2014Estimates Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u0022070d307e0344b0670510e745593502fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022070d307e0344b0670510e745593502fc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh) (16:02)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee for consideration of the Appropriation (2026/27 Estimates) Bill and the Disability Support Services Bill. We start with the Appropriation (2026/27 Estimates) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Business Committee has determined to organise the debate by portfolio; Votes are available for debate, but only specific Ministers will be available each day to speak to the indicated portfolio. The Government has indicated that the Minister of Finance, Minister of Local Government, Minister for the Environment, Minister of Transport, and the Minister for Tertiary Education will be available today. Each debate will be led by a call from the chairperson or member of the committee that considered the Estimates most closely related to the Minister\u2019s portfolios.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn leading off the debate, the chairperson should take care not to be overly political and should ensure their call gives a fair reflection of the committee\u2019s report on the Votes relevant to the portfolio. This debate expires after 11 hours, at which point questions will be put that the Votes stand part of the schedules and on the provisions of the Appropriation (2026/27 Estimates) Bill. All parties have time allocated proportionally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Estimates debate should be relevant to the Government\u2019s current spending plans as contained in the Estimates of Appropriations. A compendium of the reports of select committees on the Votes is available on the Table.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe question is that the Votes contained in the Estimates of Appropriations for 2026/27 stand part of the schedules. Members, we start with the Minister of Finance. The Minister is available to speak to that portfolio from 4.00 p.m. to 5.00 p.m. I give the call to Ryan Hamilton.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ab89523f8926a98a774ffda5ad674b83\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u2014Estimates Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u002226b183147e5e4c3406f83c95d769b05a\u0022\u003EFinance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022784f4e929aed4ea6a05d1a10add6eccb\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce0377234677adb3f911a1e5d8bbd6f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022784f4e929aed4ea6a05d1a10add6eccb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce0377234677adb3f911a1e5d8bbd6f4\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (Deputy Chairperson of the Finance and Expenditure Committee) (16:04)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The Appropriation Bill for 2026/27 is a necessary dose of fiscal reality. It recognises quite plainly that New Zealand cannot keep spending as though global interest rates are a temporary inconvenience or that inflation will politely disappear if we just invest a little more. This bill puts discipline back at the centre of public finance, and not a moment too soon. This bill also keeps debt on a sustainable path. With global interest rates elevated, borrowing recklessly is not visionary, it is expensive. Every extra dollar borrowed today is a dollar future taxpayers must repay tomorrow, often with interest that could have funded hospitals, classrooms, or police. This is why this bill reins in baselines, trims low-value spending, and focuses on programmes that actually deliver housing outcomes rather than headlines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EHealthcare will certainly be a winner in this appropriations Budget, including the three nights for post-natal stays for new mums; law and order; education; infrastructure; defence; and, of course, the Cambridge to Piarere Expressway, fully funded. The Treasury estimates that for every billion dollars invested, 5,500 more jobs will be created. Some will call that \u201Causterity\u201D; most New Zealanders call that \u201Cfinally living within our means\u201D. It is remarkable how controversial that idea becomes only when applied to Governments rather than households.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis bill is not flashy, it is not fanciful, and it certainly does not pretend that fiscal gravity has been repealed. It is a steady, factual, responsible plan to stabilise the books, rebuild resilience, and ensure New Zealand is better prepared for global shocks without reaching for the usual shortcut of taxing New Zealanders harder. It funds core services, strengthens front-line delivery, and requires agencies to demonstrate value rather than simply demand it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFor some members opposite, that may feel like a cultural shock. After all, their approach for years could be summed up in three familiar steps: announce it, fund it, and when the bill arrives, tax it. This Government has taken a different view. No new taxes, no surprise taxes, and no creative rebranding of taxes as levies or contributions. Just responsible management of the taxes New Zealanders already pay. This is the work the public expects of us, and this is exactly what the Appropriation Bill delivers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022 data-id=\u002247285bd73ad69ee63653a801b5578cf5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247285bd73ad69ee63653a801b5578cf5\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana) (16:07)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee for a reference to the select committee report. During the select committee Estimates hearing, we heard from the Minister of Finance in relation to jobs, infrastructure, a number of the items within the Budget that have been paid for or cut\u2014or savings, as the Minister would say\u2014as a result of Government decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI want to start with questions\u2014first, in relation to jobs. The Minister has said that the Budget would create 220,000 jobs. What is the increase in the working-age population over that same period, and how many of those jobs have actually been made as a result of Budget 2026 decisions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u0022c03bf0aca453c91d5806f53d55951d63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c03bf0aca453c91d5806f53d55951d63\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (16:08)\u003C/span\u003E: This was addressed in the select committee hearing. What I said\u2014to clarify; once again paraphrased incorrectly by that member\u2014was that what the Budget forecasts, according to Treasury\u2019s analysis, is that over the forecast period, 220,000 more jobs will be created in the New Zealand economy. Of course, partly that does relate to population growth, but it is also supported by a range of policies, including baseline fiscal discipline which mitigates the corrosive effects of inflation, but also a range of policies which support economic growth and therefore job creation\u2014including, for example, reform of the Resource Management Act, fast-tracking of major developments, the Investment Boost tax policy, and a number of other policies besides.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8fb7b7e4abb67288356085da4f4d996\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8fb7b7e4abb67288356085da4f4d996\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana) (16:09)\u003C/span\u003E: So how many actual jobs are attributed to Investment Boost in the last year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u002206e600d6fbc64d7932b7d0c425aca49b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206e600d6fbc64d7932b7d0c425aca49b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (16:09)\u003C/span\u003E: Again, that matter was traversed at select committee. As the member should know from her time at the Inland Revenue Department, the full tax year to which Investment Boost applied has only just ended, and as the member will know, it takes a year after the completion of a tax year for final returns to be filed because most New Zealand taxpayers use a tax agent. Therefore, we do not yet have the data about how many people claimed Investment Boost in the year previous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EWhat we do know is that Investment Boost supports businesses who have made capital investments by allowing them to deduct 20 percent of the cost of that investment from their final tax bill, meaning it reduces the tax that they pay. What we also know is that the Inland Revenue Department (IRD) and Treasury assess that a policy of this sort will encourage more investment than would otherwise be the case, affording both greater rates of economic growth and greater rates of wage growth. It is the analysis of IRD and Treasury that the major benefactors of increased investment that Investment Boost will drive will be New Zealand workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022 data-id=\u002289be3ef1f20fd524e0fcfca0c8d4e95b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289be3ef1f20fd524e0fcfca0c8d4e95b\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana) (16:10)\u003C/span\u003E: I mean, I note the Minister\u2019s comments that, obviously, this was traversed during the select committee process. It goes to the exact same point as to why I need to ask the question again, because when I just heard the Minister\u2019s answer, she couldn\u2019t actually address the actual question I was asking her. I was asking her for the actual number attributed to those changes. I do understand the Minister has minimal knowledge of the tax system, given she needed a provisional tax briefing very early in her term; however, she would know provisional tax is by a third\u2014is within particular thirds. So my question is to the Minister: again, how much has actually been attributed? The actual number. We wouldn\u2019t have to come into the House again and ask those questions if we had not got proper answers at the time. So that\u2019s why we\u2019re having to use the House\u2019s time again to ask those same questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u0022bff9925a4bd7a61019beec53f217113e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bff9925a4bd7a61019beec53f217113e\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (16:11)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Madam Chair, it\u2019s very early in the Estimates debate for the Opposition member to have taken a cup of Mr Hipkins\u2019 nasty juice. However, what I can clarify is that you don\u2019t need a PhD in tax, like Deborah Russell has, you don\u2019t need years of experience at IRD, like Barbara Edmonds has, to know this: if you impose more taxes on businesses, they will have less revenue available to them to invest in new job creation and higher wages for their people. That is why our Government is proud to support Investment Boost\u2014the first effective tax reduction for businesses in far, far too long. That sits nicely alongside the policy that we continue to deliver on, which was the first adjustment to personal income tax rates for workers in more than 14 years\u2014a policy change that that member opposed. So I can only take it that she would rather New Zealanders were paying more tax right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca4c6d8ad27121edfc364a7907ebd3a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca4c6d8ad27121edfc364a7907ebd3a6\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour) (16:12)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d just like to correct the Minister. My PhD is not in taxation; I\u2019d like the Minister to withdraw that allegation!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u002260e187da7cdbacd7267a8b926e16456c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260e187da7cdbacd7267a8b926e16456c\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (16:12)\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fdd0f65669b68c0eccf7727befa78dc\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Going to some of the Minister\u2019s comments around commitments\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252f47909bf52e63b89b2c8e4c1a484d2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me. Can I just explain to members in the Chamber: I need to give you the call because the cameras are operated remotely off site and the sound booth needs time to switch the mics, which is the purpose of me giving you the call. Honourable Vanushi Walters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a5994a5fd7e576cb1920e54a8ebb277\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Vanushi Walters\u2014I\u2019m Barbara Edmonds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcffe3631a5bd72c494dd5a05a32e971\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Barbara Edmonds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc02ab53f08ae064ff55a1d0bcf2cb25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc02ab53f08ae064ff55a1d0bcf2cb25\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana) (16:13)\u003C/span\u003E: I know we have the same haircut, but anyway. Thank you, Madam Chair. Going, now, to where a large amount of savings had come through from the Budget; it had come through Public Service reprioritisations. On a number of occasions, the Minister of Finance has committed to not cutting front-line services\u2014she made that commitment back in 2023, she has made it throughout this term of Government. Does she still commit to no cuts to front-line services, given that there\u2019s going to be a 2 percent, a 5 percent, and a 5 percent reduction in the number of Government agencies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u00226207788fcbdcd2fab9c623c58a765fc9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226207788fcbdcd2fab9c623c58a765fc9\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (16:13)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, in addressing that question, there are two points I\u2019d like to make. The first is that I think it is incumbent on all members of this House who wish to be custodians of other peoples\u2019 money that they work very hard to earn and then pay tax to us for, that we ensure we are always looking for ways to get more bang for their bucks, that we are always looking for ways to enhance productivity and delivery of public services so that the impact we are getting from every dollar is enhanced, not diminished, over time. That is the right goal for any Government to commit itself to. In this year\u2019s Budget, our Government has absolutely committed ourselves to that goal by ensuring that we are not going to put an ever-growing cascade of public money into the back-office functions of public agencies, but are instead going to require them to live within their means and, indeed, live within New Zealand taxpayers\u2019 means. In the absence of that effort, what we would be having to do is increase taxes on New Zealanders, and that is not a course our side of the House is prepared to take.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe second point I\u2019d make is this, and it\u2019s one that I\u2019ve made in the course of many debates with that member over the past few years, which is her definition of what a front-line service is may differ from mine, which is to say that she would, for example, probably define the billions of dollars her Government invested in consultancy reports and contractors as somehow being front-line service delivery. Well, our Government proudly stands by the fact that we have capped and reduced the amount of spending on consultants across public agencies. That member would probably define all sorts of things as front-line service delivery which we would say, \u201CWell, actually, no, those aren\u2019t making a difference to New Zealanders and the outcomes they expect.\u201D We see front-line services as those things needed to deliver core targets like lifting educational achievement, reducing waiting lists in the health system, ensuring fewer victimisations across the law and order system, and across all of those things we are getting better results as a result of driving more accountability for public money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022 data-id=\u0022aeca1f52541eef2ff143c01b198ef630\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aeca1f52541eef2ff143c01b198ef630\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana) (16:16)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Well, then, given her definition of a front-line service cut is very different to Chris Penk\u2019s, who regretted the fact that one of the local social services providers in Mahurangi and Kaipara, where he is currently the MP, has had to shut because of Government cuts to public services, the North Shore Women\u2019s Centre has had to close as a result of Public Service cuts, what public services\u2014given the cuts that are going to be coming of 2 and 5 and 5 percent consecutively\u2014does she believe are not a front-line services? Especially given that it\u2019s quite clear a number of community service providers who are funded through the Government sector have had cuts and have had to close as a result of her decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u00225a1e08c7e16023ae7669414efb21a95b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a1e08c7e16023ae7669414efb21a95b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (16:16)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we simply think it is possible for the Government to organise its own functions better. We don\u2019t think that there is some rule set in stone that what you must have is 29 separate departments with 29 separate IT functions, 29 separate payroll departments, 29 different brands, and 29 different layers of chief executives and deputy chief executives. Instead, we think, actually, to the extent that those agencies can be streamlined and organised around the delivery of services to New Zealanders on the front line, they should be. So that\u2019s one source of efficiency and reduced spending that we see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe also think the public agencies who may, in some cases, still be dependent on paper in a digital age, would be able to get more effectiveness and more efficiency by using modern digital delivery and systems which allow fewer hours to be spent on tasks to deliver administrative functions. Those are two ways that we see that there can be more efficiency and productivity in the Public Service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also point out that the corollary of what that member is putting to the committee is that she\u2019s saying what must happen is there must always, in every Budget, be a large shovel used to dig more money of the pockets of New Zealanders to throw into the Public Service, because it must never be expected to do more with less. On this side of the House, we proudly say, \u201CActually, just as every household and every business in the country are always looking at their budget to say, \u2018Hey, how could we ensure that we can get more impact, that we\u2019re putting dollars in the right places?\u2019, so too must Government.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022 data-id=\u0022960fc153ba9d1f94eef252647db5df87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022960fc153ba9d1f94eef252647db5df87\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green) (16:18)\u003C/span\u003E: I think perhaps a good place to start is where the Minister just left us, where she was talking about Governments of all stripes, actually, needing to make decisions on taxation and on spending. I think that that is a broader philosophical debate which has very real-world, practical implications for New Zealanders, when different approaches are taken by Governments of different stripes. We here on this side of the House\u2014the Green Party, in particular\u2014very strongly believe in collective investment in the things that can increase our productive capacity as a country and increase our resilience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETo that effect, I just want to pick up on something which the chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee said in his opening statements. He noted and, I think, implied that on this side of the House, we seem to believe that \u201Cinflation will disappear if we just invest a little more\u201D. I think the member would hopefully understand that there are different types of investment. There are indeed types of investment that can reduce our exposure to imported inflation\u2014the likes of imported inflation which our economy is currently suffering as a result of our exposure to fossil fuels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EHere I would just once again put on the public record that the Green Party actually wrote to the Minister of Finance and to the Prime Minister when the fossil fuel crisis first hit, seeing imported inflation on the horizon as a result of our economy\u2019s exposure to fossil fuels, imploring the Government to work with us to reduce that very exposure which would otherwise result in the imported inflation which we are now currently seeing. The Government is actively blaming the fossil fuel crisis for the inflationary figures and the unemployment that we are seeing at this rate, and the cost of living that New Zealanders are experiencing, but there are opportunities for the Government to make investment to actively reduce that exposure to imported inflation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETo that effect, I actually just want to pick up on few things that this Government has actively decided to invest in and pulled its foot off of the lever to withdraw investment from, particularly the likes of renewable energy. Here, the Government will point to the fact that we have seen a lot of consenting of renewable energy projects, so let\u2019s just let the market do what it needs to do. However, if we were to apply that logic across the board, then the Government should not be investing hundreds of millions of dollars in subsidising new fossil fuel production, nor potentially\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d8609c612411686d517d0f9b09b28\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c171e232c5b84ae0b40a28962cae68b\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: Firming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9571e8720f425e580cbe00164f1cfc7\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, if we want to talk about firming, for the members opposite, there are renewable versions of firming which would actually increase our sustainability and resilience, and, again, reduce our exposure to imported fossil fuel inflation. At the end of the day, my question, actually, for the Minister of Finance is something which I think is in all of our interests to understand, particularly in the lead-up to the election: does the Minister have any intention at all, or can she categorically rule out any potential taxpayer underwriting of the liquefied natural gas import facility that the Government has stated that it intends to move ahead with?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022 data-id=\u0022dcd578ff76390eb12269841897bfc27b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dcd578ff76390eb12269841897bfc27b\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour) (16:21)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister of Finance, a key factor in your Budget that you tabled this year was a $2.4 billion in projected savings that were a result of losing almost 9,000 jobs in the Public Service. I understand that chief executives have been asked to provide plans to the Minister by August, and I wanted to ask if the Minister had an update on the amount of money that has been retained by her as a result of these job cuts, and also if she\u2019s able to tell the House what job roles are going to be affected by these cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u00223a02a2c0fca2f5d4fa11736c3d622e15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a02a2c0fca2f5d4fa11736c3d622e15\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (16:22)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member is conflating two separate exercises. The first exercise is about the reduction of baseline expenditure set out in the Budget estimates. The second exercise is about restoring the Public Service to the size it has traditionally been, which is to say 1 percent of the population. Now, it blew completely out under the last Government, who thought there was never a problem that couldn\u2019t be solved by taxing people more or hiring a few hundred public servants, and so we are now undertaking an exercise to ensure it is restored to its traditional size at about 1 percent of the population.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ENow, we\u2019ve set that target to be achieved over a number of years, so it is a gradual consolidation rather than something that will be achieved overnight, and therefore we expect to hit interim milestones along the way. Yes, the member is right: public agencies have been asked to put forward their plans for ensuring that they keep within these headcount reductions over time, and I have not actively considered those proposals as yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022 data-id=\u002210490587d654b5868fba10c7e33dbdbe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210490587d654b5868fba10c7e33dbdbe\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram) (16:23)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. To the Minister of Finance, I just want to turn now to the $450 million contingency that was in the Budget for possible further measures in response to the conflict. Obviously, when we discussed this back in May, things were a lot more recent, and we\u2019ve now had several months pass. Just want to know if the Minister has an update on what plans, if any, there are to spend that contingency money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe Minister told us, and it\u2019s reported in the Finance and Expenditure Committee report, that the Government wanted to be able to implement further targeted, temporary, and timely responses if needed. This was in the context of talking about higher oil prices, inflationary pressures, and interest rates that would be factors when the contingency was used. Now that we are in August, can the Minister please give us an update on what the plans are with that $450 million contingency?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u0022eae70a91d6c71d209ec30495fd73e3df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eae70a91d6c71d209ec30495fd73e3df\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (16:24)\u003C/span\u003E: I stand by all of the statements I have made in relation to that contingency, which was a prudent measure by the Government to ensure that we were well positioned to react to what were inherently, and remain inherently, uncertain global events. As the member doesn\u2019t appear to have any subscriptions available to her to international newspapers or Google, I\u2019m happy to report to her that since the Budget has been delivered, what we have seen is both an escalation in events in the Middle East but, subsequently, further moves towards ceasefire.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe global oil price, which had spiked, has come down and spiked and come down again. Today, the price of petrol is sitting just over $3 a litre in New Zealand, diesel at about $2.70 a litre. At this juncture, the Government doesn\u2019t judge that additional temporary supports are required, although a number of temporary supports do remain in place, including additional in-work tax credits for working families on low incomes hit by higher fuel prices, and including increases to mileage rates for a range of public servants, including relief teachers and those who are required to travel between patients for their healthcare work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022 data-id=\u00228a74fb251bf3cf44d97afcd39c413647\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a74fb251bf3cf44d97afcd39c413647\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram) (16:25)\u003C/span\u003E: So has any of the contingent of that $450 million contingency been drawn down, and if it has been, what was it drawn down for? I do note to the Minister of Finance that these are serious questions, and it is precisely because of the changing nature of the conflict in the Middle East that these questions are being asked, and this House needs to understand that this is a very large\u2014nearly half a billion-dollar\u2014contingency that was sitting in Budget 2026. It was discussed at the Finance and Expenditure Committee. I think we could just have some answers to the questions around that. Google is something I think most members of this House know how to use, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdac00cb2b5e3f9c4543c63a9fecd7ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdac00cb2b5e3f9c4543c63a9fecd7ee\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (16:26)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if the member had asked that question, I would have answered that question. The answer is no, there have been no drawdowns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022 data-id=\u002246bb58330038e6d514fe6a077a2333dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246bb58330038e6d514fe6a077a2333dc\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram) (16:26)\u003C/span\u003E: Has Cabinet or Cabinet committee considered any uses of the contingency, and additional to that, has the Minister of Finance received any advice on how that contingency may be used?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022 data-id=\u00225c3b6a2a8ca730e8589144fe1796c213\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c3b6a2a8ca730e8589144fe1796c213\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour) (16:27)\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to revert briefly to the discussion raised by my colleague Camilla Belich around the cuts to the Public Service. The Minister of Finance, in explaining some of the cuts that were going on there around the baselines, was with a view to reverting to the traditional size of the Public Service at around about 1 percent of population. That may well be the traditional size, but tradition is not always a good reason for doing something. Could the Minister please explain why 1 percent is thought to be the appropriate size for the Public Service? Surely, the size of the Public Service depends on the services it has to deliver, not on a particular percentage of population. So, if the Minister could tell us why that is an appropriate size rather than just a traditional size.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u0022ccba3421ddacd596d0185e5f65fd6297\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ccba3421ddacd596d0185e5f65fd6297\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (16:27)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we have ourselves a philosophical question, and I do wish to know from the member at some point what your PhD is in. I\u2019m sorry that I misrepresented you earlier. I\u2019ve always presumed it was taxation because I know you were a tax lecturer, and I presumed your lecturing related to your PhD, so I look forward to finding out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELook, the philosophical point actually sits within this Government\u2019s fiscal strategy, where we\u2019ve also looked over time to ask ourselves the question: what is the appropriate size of Government? Because let\u2019s be clear, the bigger Government is, the more resources it takes from the pockets of workers and from businesses and industry to spend on its own business, the fewer dollars are available for those same workers, business, and industry to go about their business. We accept on our side of the House that, yes, dollars are required to provide essential public services\u2014a good health system, public infrastructure, and educating our kids\u2014but what we don\u2019t accept is the socialist premise that the way to nirvana is to ever expand the size of the State.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIf we look back over time in New Zealand, the size of Government has proportionately been roughly 30 percent of the economy. We\u2019ve set ourselves a fiscal target to get it back there. It is the case that under the last Labour Government, it went from around 27 percent to 34 percent in just six years, which shows you the alarming trajectory they would take us on. The reason, philosophically, we are uncomfortable with an ever-expanding State and an ever-expanding Public Service is because of the corollary it represents, which is: the only way to feed an insatiable State is to tax people more. You don\u2019t need a PhD in tax, Dr Russell, to understand that; that if the Government just keeps growing, that means that workers need to give more of their very hard-earned wages to the tax man or the tax woman.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOur position is that, actually, New Zealanders probably need more of their own dollars in their own bank accounts to meet their own household needs, and make their own decisions about whether they invest in their children, whether they invest in their homes, what they invest in their lives, and the more dollars we take, the fewer choices they have about how they go about it. We set ourselves discipline, and we say, actually, let\u2019s get the Public Service about where it\u2019s been, which is 1 percent of the population, and let\u2019s get Government spending about where it\u2019s been\u201430 percent of GDP. Let\u2019s not take the lazy path of just allowing Government to balloon, and deciding that every wasteful spending idea that pops into our head, whether it\u2019s a cycle bridge across the harbour or a light rail train set\u2014not every whim needs to be indulged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022 data-id=\u00221bc58fc191e7cc185b51b8ed5ea9155c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221bc58fc191e7cc185b51b8ed5ea9155c\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Minister for Hunting and Fishing) (16:30)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I was interested in the discussion before around Investment Boost, because, given some of the forecasts, it\u2019s clearly a very important policy. I understand that Investment Boost is projected to lift real GDP by about 1 percent over 20 years, with half of that coming in the first five years. I was interested in the Minister of Finance\u2019s analysis of what would happen if Investment Boost was removed. What impact would that have on the Government forecasts and the ability for the Government to provide the revenue for the spending commitments that it needs to make for our public services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u002250240d094a5c117367872c4398dc97dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250240d094a5c117367872c4398dc97dd\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (16:31)\u003C/span\u003E: The member asks a very good question, because, as parties put together their manifestoes and fiscal plans, they\u2019d better be careful about counting in growth that will not occur in the absence of Investment Boost, because what Treasury and the IRD estimate is that half of the GDP growth that Investment Boost is estimated to stimulate will occur within the first five years of that policy. In the absence of Investment Boost, therefore, you would expect half a percentage of GDP growth to be wiped off this economy over the forecast period. With less growth comes less revenue, and in terms of growth, we are talking about having GDP billions of dollars less than it would otherwise be, meaning a significant hit to revenue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ENow, of course, on the other side of the House, what they like to pretend is that you can just tax people more and there are no consequences. In the case of Investment Boost, the consequences of removing it would be very real. We would see a lower rate of capital investment than would otherwise be the case, lower productivity growth, lower GDP growth, and lower wage growth\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022610ab0dc0b6a55e51978197faa7e6d5f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Of what uptake?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db9d7e6605533cd1ff3ca58086201d75\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014with those effects most pronounced in the next five years. I put it to that member that that\u2019s why this is such an important policy to maintain, because our economy absolutely needs that stimulus to wage and job creation over the next few years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022 data-id=\u00225dd39d7de4643a5769c50cc00b9f310f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225dd39d7de4643a5769c50cc00b9f310f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour) (16:32)\u003C/span\u003E: Just reverting to an earlier discussion: for the benefit of the Minister of Finance, my PhD is actually in philosophy\u2014the study of argumentation and logic\u2014and it\u2019s very helpful for noticing when people are obfuscating and not answering questions. I\u2019d just like to point out that the Minister has not yet answered my colleague Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u2019s question about the liquefied natural gas terminal, the Minister has not yet answered my colleague the Hon Dr Megan Woods\u2019 question about the drawdown on the contingency, and she has not yet answered my question on why 1 percent is considered to be the appropriate size for the Public Service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225eb67dc70abaca406963fcba9cca9bb2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Chl\u00F6e\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022151afb4cdc1bea29ebfddd63b275c840\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair, you don\u2019t need a philosophy degree to look at\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e0fda341837327925bf452cd3562e9c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry, but I had started to call Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022 data-id=\u00228180497c615c74ac57d4955365cd29ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228180497c615c74ac57d4955365cd29ca\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green) (16:33)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s very interesting: we\u2019ve just had the Minister of Finance agree with the Green Party that without investment, there is no growth. I guess that this is where there is that kind of dividing line where we have the opportunity to meaningfully invest in the things that will increase our productive capacity as a country, and also to reduce our exposure to imported fossil fuel inflation. I really, really want an answer from the Minister of Finance here, because I think it is critical for the sake of future infrastructure planning for us as a country, but also to that point of resilience and sustainability, and our exposure to imported inflation: can the Minister please make it absolutely clear to the committee that we are not potentially, at election time, going to be faced with a situation where this Government has decided to underwrite the liquefied natural gas import facility with taxpayer money?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u0022929f96ba252acd81026366b4c11dbcb5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022929f96ba252acd81026366b4c11dbcb5\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (16:34)\u003C/span\u003E: A revelation that I hope can occur in this House today is that Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick will recognise that the Government is not the only source of investment in the New Zealand economy. In fact, the biggest investors in the New Zealand economy are actually in the private sector, which is why it is so important that we have in place policy settings that encourage them to make that investment, and the means we have available to us for doing that are multiple, not the least regulatory. For example, the Fast-track Approvals Act will allow major investments to be made in renewable energy generation and housing and in quarries that would otherwise not be able to occur. By regulating more carefully, we can ensure that billions of dollars of investment are unleashed in the private sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe second way that we can encourage the private sector to invest is ensure that they actually retain some of the profits of their investment, which is why things like having a wealth tax are a dumb idea, because what that says to them is \u201CTake your dollars elsewhere.\u201D So let\u2019s head that moment of comity in the committee of the whole House today\u2014that we can agree that private sector investment is important to the New Zealand economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn answer to the member\u2019s question, as has been stated by the Minister for Energy multiple times: the liquified natural gas investment is still subject to a procurement process and no final decisions have been made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220fe7508c7b8a47378c4c88fe1ce69fcb\u0022 data-id=\u00223b1267819ed96156c8bad76439a80e26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fe7508c7b8a47378c4c88fe1ce69fcb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b1267819ed96156c8bad76439a80e26\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti) (16:35)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003E[Authorised reo M\u0101ori text to be inserted by the Hansard Office.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E[Authorised translation to be inserted by the Hansard Office.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMoving to the M\u0101ori economy: does the Minister stand by the Government\u2019s commitment to double the M\u0101ori economy by 2035? If so, why have M\u0101ori economy\u2019s sales fallen 10 percent, exports have fallen 17 percent, and 1,070 jobs have disappeared in a single year, with M\u0101ori employment now at 10.8 percent? What tangible investment can the Minister point to that is going to turn around the 2\u00BD years of decline that the M\u0101ori economy has seen under this Government\u2019s watch?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u00229512e38f48b7ea046f54c50a06e39a58\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229512e38f48b7ea046f54c50a06e39a58\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (16:36)\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely we are committed to our ambitious goals for the M\u0101ori economy, and let me point out to the member some of the sources of that growth. Actually, the M\u0101ori economy has a significant proportion of land-based and primary industry - based businesses, which are undertaking, at the moment, an export boom. We are seeing higher prices for our diary, for our meat, for our kiwifruit, and for our apples, and we are seeing more of those products being sold overseas. Our Government is supporting that, not only by reducing the red tape that farmers need to untangle themselves from before they plant a single vine, but we are also ensuring they have access to new markets. I want to acknowledge the member\u2019s party for supporting the New Zealand - India free-trade agreement, which is an important part of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori businesses will also be significantly supported by the Investment Boost tax credit, which will ensure when they make investments in their own growth, whether that\u2019s in a piece of machinery, a piece of technology, they will pay a lower tax bill that year as a result. So, yes, we remain committed to growing the M\u0101ori economy. We are committed to policies that support M\u0101ori firms and businesses to invest, create jobs, and grow incomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0aa4ec261caa23358ba2dfa56b10fb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0aa4ec261caa23358ba2dfa56b10fb4\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green) (16:37)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve just had what I think is actually quite an explosive admission from the Minister of Finance just then, when she said that no final decisions have been made and, in fact, she was pretty ambiguous about whether there is the potential for there to be a taxpayer underwrite to the tune of $1 billion for a new liquified natural gas (LNG) import facility just a few months before the general election. If that were to happen, that would bind our country to more fossil fuel imports and, therefore, expose us to more imported fossil fuel inflation into the future. But, look, if the Greens were to be taking the National Party election strategy here in the way that they seem to contort every single piece of information about tax policy or economic strategy, we here would be putting up in billboards and lights the fact that the National Party is going to be investing $1 billion of New Zealander\u2019s money in a new LNG import facility, just to really underscore exactly how profoundly insane the situation is that we are in this election, with the lack of willingness to engage honestly and truthfully about the economic propositions that are before us as a country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ESo given that the Minister of Finance clearly so desperately wants to talk so much about tax, let\u2019s talk about what the Green Party is actually putting on the table in contrast to the tax system and the economic strategy that this Government perpetuates and upholds, and, yeah, with regard to the time that is available to us, let\u2019s be really clear that what this Government has spent its time doing has been entrenching deep wealth inequality. Right now, they know that the average hard-working New Zealander\u2014our hairdressers, our waitresses, firefighters, nurses, teachers, doctors, and almost every regular person who is tuned into this debate\u2014is paying double the effective tax rate of the wealthiest in this country. But it\u2019s clear who this Government serves, and it is not regular, hard-working New Zealanders, whom this Government sees as an opportunity to underwrite their billion-dollar LNG import facility to the detriment of all of us and of a safe, stable climate for future generations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237d81779fe82339ca1062eee1fdd664d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there a question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u0022f665a1ad1886b934023c26f1a2b857a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f665a1ad1886b934023c26f1a2b857a8\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (16:40)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I mean, the only explosive thing about that was the explosive volcano that is unleashed when the Greens get the chance to talk about their list of taxes. Let her count the ways. Look, as the Estimates clearly show, there has been no taxpayer funding commitment made to a liquefied natural gas facility, nor could there be when no final decisions have been made to advance one, because it is subject to a procurement process. There\u2019s nothing explosive about that. If the member wants to take more opportunities to list all of the new taxes she wants to introduce to drive investment and jobs away from this country, she is welcome to take as much time as she likes, because I\u2019ll tell you what: that sort of economic recklessness and vandalism is not what the New Zealand people want.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022 data-id=\u00227fccc32d958efdf028e6fccdad72a2fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229340db0d6051493982fc3db81fee975a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227fccc32d958efdf028e6fccdad72a2fd\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green) (16:40)\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I\u2019m seeking leave of the committee to have extra time afforded to the Green Party for the sake of us having that meaningful, evidence-based tax debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223d3d6e4b5cbb1ea187f64925743f4e5\u0022\u003EHon Member: \u003C/span\u003ENo.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f95a98e256055ef3b0bcdc45c66610c6\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5a2eb70de689c09c19abd43b1253074\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, let me put it. Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6bed64a729a2fa6fec90f4a0c751f82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002254aa7c61326f4a0395e6e4031c554ba3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6bed64a729a2fa6fec90f4a0c751f82\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram) (16:41)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m just returning to my questions and reminding the Minister of Finance that, outstanding, we had the questions around whether or not any advice has been received, or whether any Cabinet committee or Cabinet has considered any uses of the $450 million contingency fund that sits in the Budget. The other question I would like to ask the Minister is: has she had any update from IRD around Investment Boost and around the 1\u00A0percent increase in GDP growth that is forecasted as a result of that policy over 20 years and whether she\u2019s had any updated advice on that 1\u00A0percent? She\u2019s saying\u2014and indeed a number of the documents and certainly the documents accompanying the Budget said\u2014that you could expect some of that growth to be front-loaded in the first five years and that it wouldn\u2019t fall in a linear way, the 0.05\u00A0percent per year, if you annualised it over 20 years. So, if she can give us some updates within the first five years about how it will perform against the linear path of 0.05\u00A0percent growth, and, likewise, in terms of the projections around wage growth from Investment Boost, which is a 1.5\u00A0percent increase in wages over 20 years. I think most workers sitting out there would be looking for something more than a 1.5\u00A0percent over five years growth in their wages, but this seems to be the only policy that this Government and this Budget is hanging its hat on in terms of anything to do with wage growth and in terms of making life better for workers. So, if the Minister could give an update of any advice she has received in terms of the filings and how that is tracking and what that looks like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u002280f2a311e917248eb43b292493e4e4b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280f2a311e917248eb43b292493e4e4b1\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (16:43)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry I have to spell this out to the member, but that is wage growth additional to the wage growth that would otherwise occur. It\u2019s not the only wage growth that will occur, but it\u2019s wage growth that you can bet your bottom dollar won\u2019t happen if Investment Boost is withdrawn. As to Treasury and IRD\u2019s estimates of the impacts on GDP growth and wage growth, all of the advice that I have received stands by those estimates. It\u2019s very important to note that it is a matter of comparing what would have otherwise been the case, and that is difficult to do. As I have highlighted, we have not yet had the full year\u2019s tax returns for a year of Investment Boost, so we don\u2019t have the data. Even if we had the data, it is difficult to know how much of that investment would otherwise not have occurred.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EWhat we do know is that in the absence of this policy, New Zealand businesses would be paying more tax. If they were paying more tax, they would have fewer dollars available to them for paying their workers and making investments in their own growth and expansion. You can cut it 50 ways, you can talk about your percentages and your incremental and your linear, but if you\u2019re getting rid Investment Boost, you are taxing businesses more. This investment credit is worth $6.6\u00A0billion to New Zealand businesses over the forecast period, and in its absence, those businesses would be paying $6.6\u00A0billion more in tax. That tax would be, in the case of the Green Party, spent on phantom, crazy, fantasy projects; in the case of the Labour Party, probably wasteful Government spending. Our argument is a simple one: let those businesses retain more of their earnings so that they can make investments in their own workers, their own technology, and their own expansion, and strengthen the New Zealand economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022 data-id=\u00220ef718efca38c30d1610407c0847016d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ef718efca38c30d1610407c0847016d\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana) (16:44)\u003C/span\u003E: So, based on that response by the Minister, if you rewind Investment Boost, it therefore increases the tax impost on a business. What are the tax savings, therefore, from the year, given businesses pay provisional tax?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fe7508c7b8a47378c4c88fe1ce69fcb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022587a287222fb3da5468ff3e0bc8761eb\u0022\u003ECushla Tangaere-Manuel\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290c49b2d8e432dcfcadbfc24f54bcc29\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Cushla\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0004906490e4682dab076e22e041722\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary. Quite clearly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4da028cb11a5a1093a64dac7597b5a0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d started to call the member Cushla Tangaere-Manuel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220fe7508c7b8a47378c4c88fe1ce69fcb\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf9dbfa3fafed56acbab476966f03496\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fe7508c7b8a47378c4c88fe1ce69fcb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf9dbfa3fafed56acbab476966f03496\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti) (16:45)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Has the Minister requested or has Treasury provided any advice on the 10\u00A0percent fall in M\u0101ori authority sales and the loss of 1,070 jobs; if yes, will the Minister release it and, if no, why has she not requested that information?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u00224a322fd7b6e39e341ab57cc2007afcf4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a322fd7b6e39e341ab57cc2007afcf4\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (16:45)\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the member\u2019s question, no, I\u2019ve not received advice on that matter. In addressing member Edmonds\u2019 questions, let me spell it out again for the member, because I don\u2019t think she has understood it the first, second, or third time I\u2019ve explained it. The Investment Boost was introduced on 22 May 2025 and was, therefore, applied for the first tax year through to 1\u00A0April 2026. We do not know how many people claimed the Investment Boost tax credit in that year for a simple reason, which is that most firms in New Zealand use a tax agent to make their tax claims and have up to 12 months after the tax year to make those claims. As is always the case, the majority do not make their tax filings until a year after the completion of the tax year. The simple reason that the member\u2019s questions can\u2019t be addressed in factual detail is that the claims have not yet been made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022deec82facdfbeeb0d8d58eb4bc3f6f63\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Well, \u201Cthe majority\u201D, you said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022323cc13e37dd7b58fb61083a9588ba39\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Now, the member can mutter under her breath as many times as she likes that she doesn\u2019t know. Well, the IRD do not have that information yet, because people haven\u2019t made those claims yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022 data-id=\u002276fa775c0de505b7a74ecc8249f8681c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276fa775c0de505b7a74ecc8249f8681c\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour) (16:47)\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to help the Minister out here. It is the case that terminal tax claims have not been filed and things like that, but provisional tax returns will have been coming in on an ongoing basis\u2014the provisional upfront payments that businesses make during the year\u2014and so that provisional tax data ought to be giving some indication of whether Investment Boost is actually being used and what kind of an impact it is having on the final tax paid\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271d8acf3a6f0476999f9d03b4ae70e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b27edcb3db8be460c2bf195a91fe3811\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f899d5cd2c334705ea2e6fee448af18\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Trust me. I know about the tax system. There ought to be some data available. I would also like to point out that, as the Minister referred to herself when she was in front of the select committee, there was some survey data from Inland Revenue. The final set of that data was due to be coming in in about April, and there should have been reports back on it by now. There ought to be at least some evidence available, both from that survey data and from the provisional tax payments that have been coming in, to give the Minister an indication as to how effective Investment Boost has been. Where is that information, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u002216802c5ef4ce8c1c63562691f994b585\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216802c5ef4ce8c1c63562691f994b585\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (16:48)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s a sad Wednesday afternoon when a Labour Party member has her hand on her hip and says, \u201CTrust me. I know about tax.\u201D You know what follows. I can tell you what she knows about tax. In her view, more is always better. I\u2019m afraid that the member and I are not going to agree on this point, because the simple reality is that the Investment Boost tax credit has been introduced. Yes, the survey data indicates that a significant proportion of firms have brought forward investments they wouldn\u2019t have otherwise made or expanded investments, and a significant proportion in the survey data indicated that they had or intended to use Investment Boost. However, that is survey data. For the final information, we do need the final tax returns. It is the case that IRD have ensured that those tax returns include a data field which asks people to identify the volume and value of investments that they made that they claimed the Investment Boost tax credit for. We will know that data after the fact. We just simply do not have that data at this point. I can tell you one thing definitively and clearly: as a result of the Investment Boost tax credit, businesses in the last tax year will have paid less tax than would have otherwise been the case. The member can wish that away, or she can just be clear and candid, which is that she wants businesses to pay more tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022 data-id=\u0022783894931ec5cf5b2c50ec542197e695\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022783894931ec5cf5b2c50ec542197e695\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana) (16:50)\u003C/span\u003E: It is quite clear, when you have a Minister who says they\u2019re going to save a significant amount of tax and yet the member just before asked, \u201CWell, how much?\u201D, that she doesn\u2019t actually know. The Minister doesn\u2019t actually know. No idea. Therefore, given there was a survey\u2014and we\u2019ve read the survey\u2014I want to ask the Minister: of that significant proportion that have actually changed their investment decisions because of Investment Boost, how much was that percentage of those that actually did the survey? From my understanding, only 7\u00A0percent of those that did the survey said it was significant, and 53\u00A0percent said that Investment Boost doesn\u2019t actually affect them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ETherefore, if the Minister is claiming they don\u2019t know how much yet from Investment Boost and yet was asked just before how much it was\u2014she said, \u201CWe don\u2019t know yet, because the filing data.\u201D Well, which particular filing data are you talking about? Are you talking about the IR10, the annual financial statements, or are you talking about their provisional tax, which is done three times a year? I\u2019m getting a bit confused by the Minister here because she\u2019s conflating a number of different filing obligations in order for us to get the information around how effective Investment Boost is, given her claims that it will have significant impact on them. Yet a survey result shows the complete opposite of that. Can the Minister provide the House with the answer to how much has actually been drawn down from Investment Boost for the last year? Her comments that the majority\u2014you don\u2019t know? Well, then, what is the minority, if you do know that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u002224388fbdc2d791f23c848b9f49f3bfe2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224388fbdc2d791f23c848b9f49f3bfe2\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (16:51)\u003C/span\u003E:  I\u2019m very happy to address the member\u2019s question, although I\u2019d suggest that she\u2019s given me a spade with which to dig a hole she is going to fall into. What the IRD did was they threw forward estimates of the amount of investment that would be made by firms and how much their tax bills would be reduced in each of the years in the forecast period. The amount of less tax that businesses will pay per year as a result of Investment Boost\u2014let me spell it out to the House: in the 2024-25 year, $208\u00A0million less in tax; in the 2025-26 year, $1.830 billion less in tax; in the 2026-27 year, $1.6\u00A0billion less in tax; in the 2027-28 fiscal year, $1.7 billion less in tax; in the 2028-29 fiscal year, $1.3\u00A0billion less in tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ENow, the corollary is also true, members. If Investment Boost were removed, let me tell you how much more tax businesses would be paying. Well, this very fiscal year they\u2019d be paying $1.6 billion more in tax. Next year, they\u2019d be paying $1.7 billion more in tax. In the 2028-29 forecast year, they\u2019d be paying $1.3\u00A0billion more in tax. What kind of a finance spokesperson would promote that if they want to grow this economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022 data-id=\u0022bffb445fd0c42c0d7a908058d3173f2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bffb445fd0c42c0d7a908058d3173f2e\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour) (16:53)\u003C/span\u003E: I would like to\u2014[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EInterruption\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7ed3ffbd82016532951861f3a8c2690\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Just a minute. I can\u2019t hear myself think.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a2338397736a5c56ffb3f40a0c90326\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Of course, the point of Investment Boost is that it accelerates the depreciation right off, so it brings forward a write-off\u201420\u00A0percent in the first year\u2014and then it decreases the write-off in subsequent years. Given that the Minister has said that businesses will pay X amount less in tax in the immediate years as a result of Investment Boost, how much extra tax will they be paying in the out years as a result of the decrease claims they can make in those years? The Minister needs to be clear that this is a cash-flow advantage only. Oh, the Minister doesn\u2019t know. Perhaps I\u2019ll sit down, and someone else can take the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u002227e34b50042ceac1ce69029082fc1ddb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227e34b50042ceac1ce69029082fc1ddb\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (16:53)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if you ask a silly question, expect an answer that will be very simple for the member to understand, which is this: the Investment Boost tax policy reduces people\u2019s tax bills in the forecast period, meaning that the time value of money is significant and they have more funds available to them in the short term than would otherwise be the case. What IRD and Treasury advise is that, as a result, they will have more cash available to them to do the following things: pay their workers more, invest in more equipment, expand their growth, send their products to new markets, and do any number of things which will be good for the economy overall. Here\u2019s the thing: rather than imposing new taxes and increasing taxes, another way that you can increase revenue is by growing your economy more by growing your businesses more. The Investment Boost tax policy will allow businesses to grow faster, and we say that\u2019s a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022 data-id=\u0022859e528f27edcd106f7935b2a5423ac9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022859e528f27edcd106f7935b2a5423ac9\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana) (16:54)\u003C/span\u003E: That was interesting. While the Minister waits for a text from her adviser to provide the answer for Dr Deborah Russell\u2019s question, the question I have in relation to the last year, therefore\u2014given that the Minister has said that Investment Boost will provide more employment\u2014is: how many jobs have come online as a result of that Investment Boost, given her claim and given unemployment is now at a 11-year high? The fact is that it\u2019s supposed to bring in more employment, and yet unemployment is higher. How many additional jobs in the last year, therefore, given the Minister\u2019s claims have been brought on as a result of Investment Boost?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022011ea81871202f2ebbab8bbc4d487470\u0022\u003EHon James Meager\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s under 3\u00A0percent in Otago; 3.7\u00A0percent in the South Island.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f4f54e3b9895136e30f913fc8eefd7e\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, what was that, James Meager?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d0a7a14abf97ef54d190420bfbba54d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The debate isn\u2019t across the Chamber, members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bb83e862864293c690fbf8e12e6057a\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: He was just trying to correct me. My question is: given unemployment figures, how many more jobs have been added into the economy as a result of Investment Boost decisions and businesses accessing Investment Boost?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u0022aab3cab630fe4e86c85744aa7e5ee637\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aab3cab630fe4e86c85744aa7e5ee637\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (16:56)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re now entering the dregs of the debate where we enter endless repetition. I repeat two points that I\u2019ve made ad infinitum. The first is that it will be difficult to disaggregate the effects of Investment Boost from any of the other wonderful, pro-growth policies which this Government is implementing, from advancing fast-track developments to implementing new free-trade agreements to reducing red tape and regulation and to better educating our school leavers. That would be a difficult number for any serious scientist to come up with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe second point is this: in terms of how many claims have been made using the Investment Boost tax credit, we will not know that until the final tax returns are in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7bfd6967e92f58d2f8321303f15f1ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7bfd6967e92f58d2f8321303f15f1ab\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour) (16:56)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, seeing as the Minister doesn\u2019t really want to explain anything further around Investment Boost, I want to go to some of the general economic figures. Perhaps the Minister could explain this. I have, sitting here, the Pre-election Economic and Fiscal Update (PREFU) from 2023, and at that time, the forecast GDP growth for the 2026 year was 3.3\u00A0percent, but sitting here in the Budget Economic and Fiscal Update (BEFU) from this year, the year for which the Minister has been responsible, it\u2019s 1.2\u00A0percent. Could the Minister explain the difference in those figures and why, under her watch, growth is much, much lower than it was going to be under the watch of the previous Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhile she\u2019s at it, perhaps she could explain why, in terms of the operating balance before gains and losses (OBEGAL)\u2014they\u2019re not actually reporting the OBEGAL figure, because they\u2019ve gone to her own special little operating balance before gains and losses, excluding ACC revenue and expenses (OBEGALx) figure. With OBEGALx compared to OBEGAL, it shows that there was a considerable decrease in OBEGAL from when the Labour Government was in charge until when she\u2019s been in charge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe could add, to that, inflation. Inflation was due to be down at about 2.1\u00A0percent in PREFU 2023, and, now, under that Minister\u2019s watch, inflation for the 2026 year is predicted to be something like 4\u00A0percent\u2014well out of the band.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s do it one more time with some other sets of figures. We always knew unemployment was going to be trouble and difficult for a few years, but by this time, according to PREFU 2023, unemployment would be starting to track down. It would be at 4.8\u00A0percent, but on her watch, unemployment is sitting at 5.5\u00A0percent, and that\u2019s without taking into account all the New Zealanders who have fled overseas. The Minister needs to explain why things are so much worse on her watch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022 data-id=\u0022e40309cc015ad37d7732ec0eb8549ef0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226b99476d584f47b19420b8154e6947dc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e40309cc015ad37d7732ec0eb8549ef0\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance) (16:58)\u003C/span\u003E: As we have traversed at the Finance and Expenditure Committee and as the Treasury have acknowledged, their forecasts at Pre-election Economic and Fiscal Update 2023 were overly exuberant, and they subsequently pulled back their productivity expectations and their growth expectations. Essentially, in their analysis, they overestimated the bounce-back after COVID, and as the real data came in, they then adjusted their forward forecasts. In addition, we have of course had a global tariff war and the biggest oil shock in recent history. In terms of what the economic indicators show, under the last Government, core Crown expenses went from 27.3\u00A0percent in 2018 and leapt to 33\u00A0percent in 2024. On our watch for the only year for which we have final figures, which is the 2025 year, those expenses reduced to 32.6\u00A0percent. In terms of debt, debt was 19.5\u00A0percent in 2018. Under the last Government, it had more than doubled to 41.7\u00A0percent by 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EDespite the ravages and the challenges of the global economy, and despite the massive interest bill that we inherited from the last Government, which is now totalling around $9 billion a year, on our watch, debt has only increased in the final year for which actual figures are available\u20142025\u2014by 0.2 percent: going from 41.7 percent to 41.9 percent, which I think the member will acknowledge is a far lower level of growth than the 19.5 percent to 41.7 percent that Grant Robertson managed to achieve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222913c40c58e2caf53ed14acb2c4f340b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the Minister\u2019s time in the chair has come to an end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022622032900fd64b2bb380183a6cbfffe1\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u2014Estimates Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e19fc616158a239400c7ecfb4bba3a5c\u0022\u003ELocal Government\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214799651556e15a0ded824969ecaca19\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: We now have the Minister of Local Government, the Hon Simon Watts. The Minister is available to speak to that portfolio from 5 p.m. until 5.40 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc5df856d19845fdaba4418087cd3bba\u0022 data-id=\u0022743a4a204be0a98ece80458cbfd00012\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc5df856d19845fdaba4418087cd3bba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022743a4a204be0a98ece80458cbfd00012\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Chairperson of the Governance and Administration Committee) (17:00)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. The Governance and Administration Committee met on 17 June to hear evidence on the appropriations within Vote Cities, Environment, Regions and Transport, which are the responsibility of the Minister of Local Government. The Minister of Local Government, as I said there, is responsible for six appropriations totalling about $126.1 million in 2026-27. This is roughly a quarter of Vote Cities, Environment, Regions, and Transport: $523.1 million. At the hearing on 17 June, we heard a lot about simplifying local government\u2014the Government\u2019s Head Start pathway\u2014and the backstop process. We heard also a lot about city and regional deals around water services and the Government\u2019s plans around what is happening in that space, but we also covered off some other areas as well, including cost to councils to simplify local government, transition of local government functions to the Ministry of Cities, Environment, Regions and Transport and strengthening environmental resilience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EWe welcome the Minister here now, and I know that there are lots of questions that people want, so I\u2019m keeping my part very short because we only have a short time. So I\u2019ll leave the introduction at that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dca7b20260b94cda81a3187e58a1d7c9\u0022 data-id=\u0022d00ac61f3d59ab738f2750b0ae858835\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dca7b20260b94cda81a3187e58a1d7c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d00ac61f3d59ab738f2750b0ae858835\u0022\u003EMIKE DAVIDSON (Green) (17:02)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a question around Taumata Arowai, obviously a Crown entity and our country\u2019s national water regulator. The Government has budgeted $4.642 million for this financial year, yet the councils are contributing in levies, $20.658 million, this financial year but it\u2019s actually for three financial years in a row, and we\u2019re not too sure what it will be after that. That represents 80 percent of the total levies to run this organisation. If I look at, for example, Christchurch City Council, their contribution is $1.6 million, which obviously represents a significant increase in rates. I\u2019m sure the Minister is aware of the impact on rates when it involves operational spending. So my question to the Minister is: why have councils been forced to be the primary funder of the operations of a national regulator that the Government has created?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022258b65104d9046dfb49eb940c68bddda\u0022 data-id=\u0022c92692db7fd4c4b7f20aefe6f814fd0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022258b65104d9046dfb49eb940c68bddda\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c92692db7fd4c4b7f20aefe6f814fd0d\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere) (17:03)\u003C/span\u003E: Thanks, Madam Chair. I appreciate the opportunity. I\u2019d like to ask Minister Watts, in terms of local government: elected local government is being abolished and without telling anyone what replaces it in terms of what was given to the committee. Regional councillors will not be elected in 2028. What sits in their place? We have been advised as a committee that there will be a board of mayors, Crown commissioners, or some hybrid system that has not yet been decided by Cabinet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ESo my question is: in terms of the central democratic question, what has been planned? How will the public know, in terms of the system, if one system is being abolished and we are used to nationwide local government elections\u2014I want to understand what type of system, what will be the public consultation in a very short time, what will be the envelope, and who will make those decisions in terms of that new system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022 data-id=\u00222334c6b2255483f785c48cf0ec563a74\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222334c6b2255483f785c48cf0ec563a74\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government) (17:04)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, thank you very much, Madam Chair. Good afternoon, fellow members. It\u2019s an honour to be the member, and also the Minister of Local Government, and to be entrusted with this portfolio that is delivering for New Zealanders. We\u2019ve had a number of questions there, one in regard to the water regulator and the levy model, and also another question in regard to regional councils. In order to set the context before I come to those two points, I think it\u2019s important to acknowledge that there has been significant reform in the area of water services. The reform is focused on more flexible, cost-effective, and financially sustainable water services, and that is a priority of this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Local Water Done Well programme has seen all councils prepare water services plans, which provides them with a clear pathway to put in place the infrastructure required and the investment needed. The overseeing and the implementation of these plans is a significant task for the Ministry of Cities, Environment, Regions and Transport (MCERT), and I acknowledge my MCERT officials here with me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn regard to the question around the levy for the water regulator, it is common practice across other sectors within our economy that the funding of those regulated entities is provided by those entities that, in effect, are the users of that. In this case, they are the local government mechanism. The regulation applies to water quality standards and, more broadly, around the efficiency in the context of water as well. So that is how it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn regards to the regional council model, the member is right to acknowledge that the Government has a wide-ranging reform programme in regard to the reform and simplification of local government. We\u2019re working our way through that at the moment, and it\u2019s pleasing to see that a number of councils have made voluntary submissions in regard to their plans to amalgamate. We\u2019ll have more to say on that in the coming weeks to months, but in regard to regional council specifically, it is correct that these regional council elections will not occur again, and will not occur in the 2028 year, which is when they were planned to occur again. In effect, the functions of regional council will form part of new amalgamated unitary councils across the country, and that process of transition will be happening over the period from now to 2028.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe destination is not 2028; it is a milestone on that journey and then the further bedding in of that reform will occur post 2028. Those councils that have selected into the Head Start process can expect that they will have their, in effect, amalgamated entities in law by midway through of next year. That will then give them a certain clarity to start that reform programme faster, which was the feedback that they gave to us through the consultation process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc5df856d19845fdaba4418087cd3bba\u0022 data-id=\u00221bf9f6a4b500cb19470787191340c61f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc5df856d19845fdaba4418087cd3bba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221bf9f6a4b500cb19470787191340c61f\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Labour) (17:07)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair, and I\u2019d like to thank you, Minister, for that. I would like to ask a follow-up on the question from my colleague from the Greens around Watercare and what is happening in the Local Water Done Well area. Now, we noted that the Department of Internal Affairs reported that councils\u2019 water services delivery plans under Local Water Done Well predict that nearly $9 billion more investment is needed over the next 10 years. That was over and above what councils\u2019 long-term plans forecast. Now someone has to pay for that, and I\u2019m presuming that there has been household modelling and the impact on household modelling, and I\u2019m very keen to know which and what the modelled household impact is. So, who really pays for that $9 billion and what is the forecast impact on the average household bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dca7b20260b94cda81a3187e58a1d7c9\u0022 data-id=\u00223cad12cc25d2eb5718347147ab7ce271\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dca7b20260b94cda81a3187e58a1d7c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223cad12cc25d2eb5718347147ab7ce271\u0022\u003EMIKE DAVIDSON (Green) (17:08)\u003C/span\u003E: I just wanted to follow up on my questions around Taumata Arowai, and I appreciate the comments from the Minister. I guess I want to get some insurance that there\u2019ll be no other Crown entities, departments, or agencies that council may end up having to fund some of the administration. I look at something like Waka Kotahi NZ Transport Authority, which obviously works within the local government space. I\u2019d just be good to get some insurance that that won\u2019t happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EOne of the things I also want to look at is we know that the Minister\u2019s proposing to introduce a rates cap, and whether he would look to exclude these levy costs from councils from that rate caps proposal, and whether he\u2019s willing to work across parties to actually look at some of the reforms that are currently happening that are posing significant costs on councils from the administration of them, and develop them. They could be looked from being excluded from the rates cap because we see, across the board, councils struggling to actually keep up with the pace of the reforms\u2014but the cost to council is significant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022 data-id=\u00226116e9918b15547a4d39c8fa6449a4ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226116e9918b15547a4d39c8fa6449a4ed\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government) (17:09)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the members for the questions. I\u2019ll cover Watercare first and then come on to the broader reform in regards to rates caps. In regards to Watercare specifically\u2014so this is the entity responsible for the delivery of water services in the Auckland region\u2014it is probably one of the most significant and substantive examples of the success of the Local Water Done Well reform.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe mechanism changes in the Local Water Done Well reform is, basically, enabling the funding and financing to flow to the Watercare entity in order to undertake and embark on a significant capital programme and investment programme. That capital programme is in the region of $15 billion over the next decade. We all acknowledge that there is a deficit of infrastructure required and the investment required to do so, but the ability to decouple Watercare from the Auckland Council balance sheet allows it to have the flexibility to be able to borrow that, and, of course, it is offset with the ability to collect revenue from water connection charges to offset that borrowing. So that has really unlocked probably what is one of the most fundamental significant reforms of the ability to invest in water infrastructure in New Zealand in the past generation, I would go as far as. The savings, particularly in Auckland\u2019s case, are $900 million as a result of the Local Water Done Well reforms, and that is answering the member\u2019s question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn regards to the rates cap point, the member is asking around the interest around bipartisanship. I can give the member certainty in the context that it remains the Government\u2019s intent to introduce legislation in regards to a rates cap model. We have spent an extensive amount of time consulting and working with the broader industry around policy design considerations for that model to work in practice, taking into account learnings such as Australia and where they have learnt from that. As and when it is introduced, it will go through a select committee process, and I would welcome interactions, support, and thought around that across the House. It is my view as Minister of Local Government that any legislation that we look to introduce, particularly new legislation such as a rates cap, is enduring. Therefore, it would be appropriate for us to ensure that that legislation is well considered and deals with the underlying issues but also provides the mechanisms and the safeguards to deal with, say, natural events and disasters where there are exceptional circumstances and we need a mechanism to deal with that that is built into the design of that legislation. We\u2019ll embark on that process in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022258b65104d9046dfb49eb940c68bddda\u0022 data-id=\u002273e515a13cd5e9f687beed98b0935996\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022258b65104d9046dfb49eb940c68bddda\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273e515a13cd5e9f687beed98b0935996\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere) (17:12)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to thank the Minister of Local Government for his earlier replies. Minister, I want to understand, in terms of the interim body, if the elected regional government is abolished, there\u2019s not much time, and you\u2019ve kindly explained that in probably about mid-2027 there will be the appointment of that interim body. Minister, can you please explain, in terms of the final design of the new set-up, with what the public understand, what will the education package to the public be in terms of consulting the public up and down Aotearoa that there is going to be a new body in the interim, there will be an appropriation for Parliament, and there will also be a completely new system\u2014what consultation will there be done?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI have a number of questions in terms of the consultation, because it is important that when there is such a fundamental change in the new system, there is a serious component in terms of the planning of the design of the new system. It needs to be asked how public consultation will be done for voters of Aotearoa so that they can understand the reform programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBut I also wanted to ask, Minister, if you could explain: has any assessment been made to the risk of regional planning capability in the abolishment of this current system to the new system because of the cost of living increases? What will worry people in their local communities is the cost of a new system. There will be the processes through Parliament in terms of legislation directed and designed by the Minister and officials and the impact of that new system being understood clearly by communities across Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc5df856d19845fdaba4418087cd3bba\u0022 data-id=\u0022835774e3b340fb6af4ca25467d817606\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc5df856d19845fdaba4418087cd3bba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022835774e3b340fb6af4ca25467d817606\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Labour) (17:14)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, just because we\u2019ve got a short time and it is jumping around a bit, but I do want to move to the city and regional deals from my questions, if that\u2019s OK. This is something that\u2019s been a particular interest for me, of course, coming from the Western Bay of Plenty, and that is one of the first areas where one of the city and regional deals were signed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EMinister Watts, you told the select committee at our hearing that pursuing Head Start does not affect a council\u2019s eligibility for a city and regional deal, but that a region that has been through Head Start is likely to meet some of the prerequisites, such as the ability to coordinate as a region and produce a clear growth plan. Now, to me that seems a little bit of a contradiction. It seems like amalgamation is formally irrelevant to eligibility, but it\u2019s also practically advantageous, from that quote. Councils have understood the message. It seems like it converts a voluntary pathway into a condition of access to funding. So I would like some comment, if the Minister thinks and believes that that\u2019s true. Just to clarify that, because it did seem very contradictory during the committee hearing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022 data-id=\u00228e2f68aa4f2b07d543f5e5a051520ac7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e2f68aa4f2b07d543f5e5a051520ac7\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government) (17:16)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I\u2019ll come to the member\u2019s question in regards to the broader city regional deal and the relationship in that context, just to clarify. I just want to acknowledge the member\u2019s contribution and support. These regional deals are 10-year deals. They will span the political spectrum, and you\u2019ve seen that in the UK, where they\u2019re now 20 years ongoing. The importance of having alignment around the key aspects that are going to benefit our cities and regions are important, so I do acknowledge that across the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe assessment that the member is stating is not my view. It is not a prerequisite that the amalgamation of the councils is a prerequisite or a requirement of a city regional deal. It is, obviously, in terms of the criteria for a city regional deal being considered, a helpful example of how well in practise a region is able to work together. I think that is the point that is noted for those regions that have not yet negotiated or are negotiating a city or regional deal with the Crown, it obviously is advantageous to be able to signal their ability to work together, and that is important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn the case of the Bay of Plenty and those aspects, the groupings of councils which were party to that agreement met the criteria in regards to that, and as a result the deal has been signed. So what they choose to do in regards to the amalgamation of their council positions or not is subject to their choice at this point. Western Bay and Tauranga did not participate in the Head Start proposal programme, and therefore, by virtue of that, they will be subject to a backstop process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn regards to the questions around timing around that, because I think this is very important, Head Start proposals were due on 9 August. Government decisions around proceeding with any detailed design of those will be made in September, with final decisions in regards to that in 2027. It is the expectation that the detailed design of any backstop process will not be made or determined until 2027. And following decisions, legislation, and implementation of the successful Head Start proposals, then we will look to instigate the backstop process that will be developed and enacted in early 2028 and in place for the 2028 local body elections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere was a question before around the entity body and when is it going to be in place. The entity body that\u2019s been referred to will not be in place until 2028. What that acknowledges is that the backstop process will not apply until following the 2028 elections. Together with Head Start and the backstop, this will provide a clear pathway for reform for councils to move from where they are. Again, the Head Start proposal and pathway was put in place because we had feedback when we consulted with councils that a number of groupings wanted to move faster than the 2028 deadline. As a result, we created a voluntary mechanism to do that. Again, while I can\u2019t be specific around the decisions off the back of that, we have been pleasantly surprised with the large number of 18 or so proposals that we received from councils across the country with an interest in looking to amalgamate into unitary groupings. That is important with a backdrop that we\u2019ve only ever had one amalgamation in this country\u2019s history in the last 35 years, which is one. To have 18 proposals in a voluntary process is not to be underestimated in terms of significance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b11bafcf5b5427480393ffeef4fe6e8\u0022 data-id=\u00228c9ce422ee3b4222ddc1f735504477ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b11bafcf5b5427480393ffeef4fe6e8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c9ce422ee3b4222ddc1f735504477ed\u0022\u003EORIINI KAIPARA (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014T\u0101maki Makaurau) (17:20)\u003C/span\u003E:\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, e mihi ana ki te Minita\u003C/span\u003E\u2014thank you. I want to stay on the topic of local government reform. I have three questions themed around accountability to hap\u016B and iwi M\u0101ori. Given that some councils are struggling to collaborate on local government reform, how will Vote Cities, Environment, Regions, and Transport and local government 2026-2027 ensure that councils are adequately engaged with and supported by local hap\u016B, iwi M\u0101ori to collaborate and meet reform deadlines? Following that, given that councils aren\u2019t able to successfully collaborate unlike their iwi M\u0101ori counterparts on critical reform, how does the Vote Cities, Environment, Regions, and Transport and local government 2026-2027 support partnership between councils who fail to collaborate across regional interests, opting to patch protect their own local interests and reform? The third and final question on this topic is regarding ministerial backstop powers. How much money has been allocated under Vote cities\u2014under this Estimate\u2014to engage with iwi M\u0101ori on the use of such powers to prevent reform failure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea9dbf5e92dd449ef4df81743c166265\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea9dbf5e92dd449ef4df81743c166265\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government) (17:21)\u003C/span\u003E: So working backwards on those, the allocation of funding specifically to iwi M\u0101ori in regards to the Head Start proposal has been through baselines. There hasn\u2019t been any significant allocation of funding actually to any groups or any entities as a result of this. What has been the case from the outset is that this has been undertaken first and foremost from the local communities and local groupings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI just want to acknowledge the role of iwi M\u0101ori and broader hap\u016B in the Head Start proposals. In many instances actually iwi M\u0101ori in particular have been more pro-reform in this area than potentially what some councils have been able to agree to. I guess that acknowledges that there is a clear understanding of the importance of getting to a point which is different to the status quo, and actually working more together as a region does have advantages which in many parts of the country iwi M\u0101ori have recognised in some cases before councils have got to that point of understanding. So that will continue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere are other examples across the board where iwi M\u0101ori are very much aligned with the Head Start proposals that have been put in place. Seldom are there examples where there is large conflicting view in regards to that, which is positive. The view has always been that local councils have the best relationship with iwi M\u0101ori and their communities than central government, and they are best placed to do that. I\u2019ve been very clear with my expectations to councils that they must engage in so in good faith and ensure that all people within the community including iwi M\u0101ori are at the table at a very early stage to ensure that anything designed is considered with all of the perspectives around that table from the outset.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dca7b20260b94cda81a3187e58a1d7c9\u0022 data-id=\u00229fc1b4588874676f0803839fc00e82ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dca7b20260b94cda81a3187e58a1d7c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fc1b4588874676f0803839fc00e82ce\u0022\u003EMIKE DAVIDSON (Green) (17:23)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I guess part of the reason why so many councils have entered the Head Start programme is because they\u2019ve got one hand pushed up behind their back. I think this quote from the Hon Chris Bishop explains it quite well: \u201CLead your own reform or we will do it for you. Either way, change is coming.\u201D So it was very clear that these councils were forced to do this Head Start programme, and to be fair, there are some councils that are in a good space to do it. But from a lot of the elected members that I\u2019ve spoken to across the motu, they are being forced to do this and it\u2019s been rushed too quickly and the community is not having their say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019ve also seen from a recent report commissioned by Wellington was actually the cost to do this is extreme, and the cost for them over just a couple of years was $269 million. And my question to the Minister is: will these costs be excluded from those rates capping proposal? And will there be a mechanism for councils to seek reimbursements for this cost for because of a reform that this Government has forced upon them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc5df856d19845fdaba4418087cd3bba\u0022 data-id=\u00221035503f3629b31860879b4702c1434d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc5df856d19845fdaba4418087cd3bba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221035503f3629b31860879b4702c1434d\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Labour) (17:24)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m sorry; I\u2019m going to go back to the city and regional deals just to ask two follow up questions that I think I just want some clarification around. It seems that when I look at the appropriations of this portfolio, the total is $126.1 million, but the city and regional deals is described as unlocking funding for roads, infrastructure, and housing supply. So my question on this is what is the total funding committed under the Auckland and Western Bay of Plenty deals, and over what period, and in which appropriations do they sit for those deals? The other question I have, and I\u2019ll just ask it now so that the Minister has it, is there seems to be a number of councils who are waiting with no decision that they have received. So I\u2019d like to know how many regional deal proposals are awaiting a Cabinet decision, and does the Minister have an idea around when those councils will receive an answer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022258b65104d9046dfb49eb940c68bddda\u0022 data-id=\u0022db91e3ffb43613288b56e50b55bce1c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022258b65104d9046dfb49eb940c68bddda\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db91e3ffb43613288b56e50b55bce1c0\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere) (17:25)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I do want to go back just with a couple of follow-up questions for the Minister with regards to abolishing elected regional government. But one of the things, and the Minister has mentioned that there has been one amalgamation which is Auckland Council, and whilst there was a number of\u2014there was a legislation and there were policies that came out under that amalgamation, it actually turned very messy because communities were not clearly informed as well as the elected members moving over to the new system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is: it has been signalled that there will be an interim period, and the Minister has explained that 2027, which then leads on to a 2028 time line\u2014which will then be in line with the local government elections. Whilst it sounds good, can the Minister give assurance that that will happen accordingly, with respect to the new legislation? But also the Vote appropriation, can the Minister explain, in terms of the final design of the legislation, what exactly will Parliament be appropriating the money for?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022 data-id=\u00222794544db05081a7ecf08e552dfe64f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222794544db05081a7ecf08e552dfe64f5\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government) (17:27)\u003C/span\u003E: In response to the questions first and foremost around the transition costs for all proposals, but in this instance it was referred to as Wellington, is that each of the Head Start proposals which are currently being assessed by officials, a number of them did include assumptions and indications around transition costs that may be considered or necessary by the groupings of councils in order to facilitate the transition. Officials are currently working in their way through that information. No decisions have been made by Cabinet in regards to what proposals will progress, nor whether any support will be provided for those transition costs. But it is currently under active consideration and we will release that decision as part of the information we do as noted in September.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe question in regards to the city regional deal proposals and how many more and are councils waiting; we did a first wave of that where we sought proposals and we made the decision to progress negotiations with three groupings, of which we have signed two deals, and we are imminent to sign the third deal in regards to that. We have no other negotiations currently under way. However, we have signalled to councils that post the Head Start process being reviewed and assessed by Cabinet, we may take a decision to open up a phase two around the city regional deals. We have not made that decision at this point. It\u2019s still under active consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELastly, the question around the allocation of funding and around city regional deals and how much is allocated to both Auckland and the Bay of Plenty deal: as the member highlighted, the city regional deals include a wide range of portfolio implications, from health to education to roading and other aspects, and a number of projects and appropriations within that are either appropriations or they are intents to do something in the future, some of which are in the later period, so years seven to 10. It is not the case that there is a single number definitively that can be placed upon the totality of appropriation for a city regional deal because of the fact that some aspects of that appropriation and decision making is at different stages of design. So they also sit across multiple portfolios. So there isn\u2019t a single allocation within the portfolio of city regional deals to fund that. It comes from respective Ministers, such as transport or health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dca7b20260b94cda81a3187e58a1d7c9\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9e82091cd60417f55716dc7d328f9a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dca7b20260b94cda81a3187e58a1d7c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9e82091cd60417f55716dc7d328f9a2\u0022\u003EMIKE DAVIDSON (Green) (17:29)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate the comments from the Minister. I just want to check if the Minister agrees, because we\u2019ve had a lot of commentary about the level of rates increases from councils over a number of years and whether he agrees that the driver of increased rates over say the last five years has been insurance, interest rates, and inflation. And one of those drivers actually the council can control\u2014it\u2019d be great to get his opinion on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe other question I have is around this. As we know, councils are going through the Head Start process, which will see a number of councils merge. But also, at the same time, we have, I believe, 44 councils undergoing representation reviews due to legislation, and there\u2019s the potential that there\u2019s going to be a lot of money spent in that space, which obviously will be passed on to ratepayers. That may be redundant if they have to merge into another council. My question to the Minister is: what is the Minister doing in this space? Are there going to be some changes to actually allow councils not to do those representation reviews, or if they do them and they become redundant because they merge, will they be reimbursed those costs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022 data-id=\u0022465e5f471bd2223d391bc3bcd2315b83\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022465e5f471bd2223d391bc3bcd2315b83\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government) (17:30)\u003C/span\u003E: Just in regards to the question, in terms of the key drivers of rates increases in the country, the member is correct to note that we have seen significant increases in year on year rate increases; some jurisdictions up to 20 percent. Obviously, in your home region, double-digit rate increases, as well. The drivers of those are varied across the country. Obviously, high inflation historically has been a contributing factor, but one of the aspects is also the scope of what local government undertakes as a service delivery model. Currently, within the Act, it\u2019s defined as \u201Cwellbeing\u201D. It\u2019s very difficult to define what is \u201Cwellbeing\u201D\u2014it pretty much could include everything. Legislative change that we will be putting through before the 24 September will define the core activities of local government across the key areas of rubbish, water, roading, civil defence, and parks and recreation, and there is a financial requirement, also, to spend money on those things first and foremost, before anything else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EAs a result of that, and aligned with the implementation of a rates-capping model, we\u2019re trying to, in effect, regulate those monopolies that will ensure that the increases in rates are at a level which is affordable for New Zealanders. In regards to the systems improvement bill, that is where that legislation will fall in regards to what are core services of local government. In regards to the questions around representation review, the member is correct that that is an area that has been highlighted from local government. It is something that I\u2019m taking advice on, and I\u2019m very open to thinking about how best to relieve that pressure on local government through, potentially, the Head Start legislation that we will put in place. I\u2019ll have more to say on that soon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b11bafcf5b5427480393ffeef4fe6e8\u0022 data-id=\u00222510a75fd4ecbdce86f3f168f0a1a949\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b11bafcf5b5427480393ffeef4fe6e8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222510a75fd4ecbdce86f3f168f0a1a949\u0022\u003EORIINI KAIPARA (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014T\u0101maki Makaurau) (17:32)\u003C/span\u003E: My question is around the establishment of the Ministry for Cities, Environment, Regions and Transport, otherwise known as MCERT, and it\u2019s to do with the funding for capacity and capability of the Crown to deliver on Treaty settlement commitments. One, how will this Estimate support MCERT to build any new capacity and capability to uphold Crown obligations to iwi and M\u0101ori, including Treaty settlement arrangements? What are the cost implications for Vote Cities, for this Estimate, to source new and to retain existing iwi M\u0101ori capacity and capability required to uphold obligations to iwi and M\u0101ori, including Treaty settlement arrangements? The third and final question on this topic is: what trade-offs will MCERT be required to make in its first year which may require weakening of Crown obligations to iwi M\u0101ori, including Treaty settlement arrangements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dca7b20260b94cda81a3187e58a1d7c9\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce0729e89fe5aae9011489f063fcf31e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dca7b20260b94cda81a3187e58a1d7c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce0729e89fe5aae9011489f063fcf31e\u0022\u003EMIKE DAVIDSON (Green) (17:33)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I do appreciate your comments. I\u2019ve asked a lot of questions around the cost to local governments from these reforms being passed on to them by central government, which goes directly to ratepayers. There is the impact that\u2019s going to happen with a rates cap, and, obviously, the fact that these reforms costs are going to have to sit underneath those things, underneath the rates cap. My question to the Minister is: will he commit to, where councils are spending money that is due to a central government reform\u2014that that money will be excluded from the rates cap?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022258b65104d9046dfb49eb940c68bddda\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3bb40f4723b5a25fdb01677e8a0eb42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022258b65104d9046dfb49eb940c68bddda\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3bb40f4723b5a25fdb01677e8a0eb42\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere) (17:34)\u003C/span\u003E: I do want to thank the Minister for his answers, but, Minister, I did ask an earlier question with regards to public consultation. Can you give an assurance that the changes\u2014because these are drastic changes for the whole country, in terms of the reforms. Will the public consultation be done effectively in terms of the interim body and then the new system, and also how long will that interim period be?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022 data-id=\u00228914995769d1942ca432102d4280775e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228914995769d1942ca432102d4280775e\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government) (17:34)\u003C/span\u003E: In regards to the questions on public consultation in particular, it will always be the intent of the Head Start process\u2014which is a voluntary process for councils to opt into\u2014that it would be for those councils to undertake any engagement with their communities in regards to consultation and their proposals around what they\u2019re looking to do as result of amalgamation. It\u2019d be fair to say that there are a number of councils across the country that, for example, have undertaken and have held referenda on the decision of whether the communities want to proceed in that area or not, and it would be fair to say there is a range of views. But at this point, the Head Start is a voluntary process and we\u2019ve left it for councils to undertake that conversation with their communities, and, again, of course, the councillors are democratically elected and therefore represent the views of their communities in that case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Head Start proposal, as I\u2019ve said, will not conclude until 2028, and so there remains a significant amount of runway between now and then in order to continue discussions and to design and ensure that the model that is proposed and is implemented is fit for purpose for their communities. As I\u2019ve highlighted before, I do have the expectation that there is active engagement with all stakeholders within the community to ensure that that reform is placed. We have only had one amalgamation of local government in the last 35 years, with the exception of Auckland. We are embarking, potentially, on a large number of amalgamations, and so I do not take that process lightly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe do need to ensure that any reform that we undertake is enduring, is well-thought-out and well considered and that it does take into account the needs and requirements of the community. So the principles that apply to Head Start include things like protecting local voice, whether it is practical, and whether the efficiency is going to deliver value for ratepayers. In that context, that will remain the focus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b11bafcf5b5427480393ffeef4fe6e8\u0022 data-id=\u00223e0cf1c52a56ef5d6e524317f98dd803\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b11bafcf5b5427480393ffeef4fe6e8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e0cf1c52a56ef5d6e524317f98dd803\u0022\u003EORIINI KAIPARA (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014T\u0101maki Makaurau) (17:36)\u003C/span\u003E: In terms of the Better Off support package, Minister, and the questions surrounding the role of iwi and M\u0101ori with these support packages, what input, if any, have iwi or M\u0101ori had in delivering the Better Off support package money for water infrastructure services? After receiving Better off support packages, how does this Estimate support local councils to deliver a new water services regime alongside iwi M\u0101ori as Te Tiriti partners?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EA further question for the Minister is around improving departmental performance reporting now around the reporting aspects of the water programmes. The question is around the role of iwi M\u0101ori: if no allocation for involvement by M\u0101ori has been made under this Estimate, then what opportunities are there for iwi and M\u0101ori participation? What has been identified by the Department of Internal Affairs and/or Ministry for Cities, Environment, Regions and Transport that is non-financial? Further to that, one more: how does this Estimate ensure evidence of public value and departmental performance can be measured and demonstrated without hap\u016B and iwi M\u0101ori at place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022 data-id=\u0022829ea282664edc75d67e794af658d6e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fb4ce970d4f47d9853d2ea64ddc5b74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022829ea282664edc75d67e794af658d6e1\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore) (17:37)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for the question. In the two minutes and 10 seconds remaining before the main event, I\u2019ll keep this to within two minutes. The key element, I think, raised by the member is that the new Ministry for Cities, Environment, Regions and Transport, or MCERT, is that it brings together multiple agencies and multiple capability of expertise, particularly in regards to M\u0101ori advisory capability and teams within all of those respective agencies. We now have a singular agency where all of that capability is able to work together, and there are, obviously, opportunities and synergies to amplify that capability across all those agencies to derive better outcomes. That has been the intent of the formation of MCERT, and, to the member\u2019s question around ensuring that there is appropriate investment capability and delivery in regards to outcomes for M\u0101ori, I\u2019m confident that the MCERT model is going to amplify and ensure that that provision of information continues appropriately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAs I\u2019ve noted to the member before, the design of Head Start has always been ensuring that those within the community that have a perspective and an interest in making sure that this works in practice are at the table from the outset to design the model that will work, and I acknowledge iwi M\u0101ori\u2019s perspective across the country, where that has been very vocal and very positive and very constructive, and sometimes more advanced than, particularly, what other councils have been themselves. That is just the reality of where different groups are across the broader country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBut, overall, I\u2019m very proud of the work that I\u2019ve undertaken as the Minister of Local Government. We have embarked on the most significant local government reform that we have seen in this country in generations, and as a result of the reform which we\u2019ve undertaken, that sets ourselves up for success. There is obviously more work to be done, but from this point forward, I am looking forward to continuing to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELastly, I just want to recognise the Hon Dr Duncan Webb for your valedictory, which is about to occur. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd189968aed0969228d28fb3ebdc7431\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, in accordance with a determination of the Business Committee, the committee is suspended for the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s valedictory statement. We will resume this debate at 7.30.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cb9435ba7b4ebf9cd1689dbf02997b9f\u0022\u003EValedictory Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022008177aab15ca2e0cc4136a64236da3f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228afcf42f6d2fdec6dc61dea8f25be492\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I\u2019ll indicate now that at the conclusion of Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s valedictory statement, the House will rise for the dinner break and resume at 7.30.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022 data-id=\u0022faebdec8650a83c3cf7fcf3061dd7160\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022faebdec8650a83c3cf7fcf3061dd7160\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central) (17:40)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsTerm\u0022 style=\u0022font-style: italic\u0022\u003EApplause\u003C/span\u003E] Easy on\u2014just the once.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266320c9df897f242b05db9d1de14d6d7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t think you\u2019re going to top that, so we\u2019ll just call it there, shall we?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244dfd6dc185b8c8e946cc053c7f99953\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah\u2014call it a day. I will if you will, Mr Speaker. Ha, ha! Look, there\u2019s never a right time to leave Parliament, but I guess there\u2019s one way to leave Parliament, which is by choice, and there\u2019s the other way, and I guess I can just be lucky that I\u2019m leaving by choice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EYou do sometimes, I think, wonder, in the hurly-burly of this place, whether you have any impact at all, and I certainly know that some of my constituents wonder that as well. But it does make you reflect on why you came here, and I suppose that\u2019s what valedictories are all about. In fact, Mr Speaker, it was your work in Christchurch that drove me to become a member of Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227668fa984dda49228696cbb0e37cff57\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Very happy to be an inspiration to you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bab55eae75b6348e99a914fb20a836f1\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you did call me an ambulance chaser, and I might have called you a few things as well. But, look, the scars of the Christchurch earthquake were very real and raw, and in my maiden speech I said that on the day of the earthquakes, the heart of Christchurch stopped beating. What drove me here, it wasn\u2019t a big policy goal; it was actually quite personal. I still recall one incident that stood out, which was when a very old man in his 70s or 80s called my office and was really apologetic to trouble us, because he didn\u2019t really have any money. He said he\u2019d been living in a caravan in east Christchurch in his backyard for two years because the Earthquake Commission (EQC) hadn\u2019t come round to assess his badly damaged home and he didn\u2019t have any sanitation\u2014was that OK? It wasn\u2019t, and that\u2019s one of the reasons I chose to come here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI do want to recognise some of the young lawyers I worked with back then who worked really hard on cases like that to change people\u2019s lives who really needed help. Some of them are here today, and that was a team I was proud to be part of. But I joined a different team\u2014I joined this team, and it\u2019s a team I have loved working with. When we came in, we were focused on the Christchurch earthquake and what had happened there. Certainly, the Christchurch MPs were.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhen I look back and I see that we launched a royal commission into EQC\u2014that actually did change the culture of EQC in significant ways. We created a claims resolution service that still exists to assist people through natural disasters, and we established an earthquake tribunal. Perhaps most importantly, we established the on-sold programme which meant that people got their houses and their dodgy EQC repairs fixed without having to go through court. They were all transformative changes for the people of Christchurch. That earthquake story isn\u2019t finished. People are still struggling 15 years on, but I think we changed the focus to what it should be, which was on the people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAnother project that I was involved in was an innocence project in Christchurch\u2014and it was great, and I\u2019ve got Andrew Little here in the House\u2014to see the Criminal Cases Review Commission established. I think sometimes, as a party that\u2019s been in Government, you can focus on the reversals instead of some of the changes that have really stuck, and I do think that they\u2019re just some of the changes that I came to Parliament wanting to see happen and indeed they have, so that\u2019s something I think we can all be really proud of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI know we all come here with the vision of making people\u2019s lives better, and we disagree what that might mean\u2014sometimes fiercely\u2014but I do worry, sometimes, that we don\u2019t give enough weight to community, culture, recreation, and art, and we value a society where every spare hour is spent working, making ends meet, and we miss out on friends and family and the things that really matter. It\u2019s the tyranny of accumulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to recognise the work that Grant Robertson did when we were in Government\u2014he really understood the importance of what mattered, and I think his wellbeing Budget was a transformative way to look at how we manage our economy and make a fiscal plan. I know that this Government hasn\u2019t continued along that road, but I think the foundations are there, the work\u2019s been done, the knowledge is there, and I hope that in future Governments, we will go back to asking the question of how we make people\u2019s lives better through the Budget process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhen I got here, I was sitting over there, and when I did my maiden speech and I stood up and said, \u201CI\u2019m a member of the Labour Party. We believe in democratic socialism. I am a socialist.\u201D [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsTerm\u0022 style=\u0022font-style: italic\u0022\u003EApplause\u003C/span\u003E] It\u2019s good to see that that line still works. I was surprised to get a cheer because I actually didn\u2019t think I was saying anything particularly outrageous for a Labour Party member. But I suppose I shouldn\u2019t be surprised that the word \u201Csocialism\u201D sends a shiver up the spine of some people on the other side of the House, but to me it\u2019s not an ideology; it\u2019s an approach. It\u2019s not necessarily about State ownership or things like that; it\u2019s just about the idea that where you start, someone\u2019s circumstances of birth, should not be determinative of their course in life. Out there, in the real world, we see people with compassion and humility and humanity that they bring to their lives every day and I think that\u2019s the kind of socialism I think we should be bringing into this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI guess policy, for me, is personal. Perhaps it comes from all that time I spent in church, but when I see jobs being cut, emergency accommodation being harder to get, support for disabled people being taken away, I wonder if we should frame it as something some old bloke did a very, very long time ago when he said, \u201CInsofar as you turned away the least of them, you turned away me.\u201D That seems to me to be a sound basis for public policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESometimes we spend far too much time sitting down and not enough standing up, and as the election rolls around, I think we should ask each of us and each of the parties who we\u2019re standing up for. Some groups and people are easy to stand up for, but some aren\u2019t. When I think of the homeless, people in prison, unemployed, youth offenders, I wonder who\u2019s standing up for them, because if it was easy to stand up for them, we wouldn\u2019t really be needed in here anyway, would we?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI do want to recognise what a huge privilege it is to be in this House and I really appreciate the confidence that the people of Christchurch have put in me. One of the jobs I really quite enjoyed was being chief whip\u2014[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsTerm\u0022 style=\u0022font-style: italic\u0022\u003ELaughter\u003C/span\u003E] I did!\u2014of 65 MPs; oh, no, 64.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce17e2e2596e3edc5ef71a04f023ef3d\u0022\u003EHon Member: \u003C/span\u003EToo soon\u2014too soon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8579d85fcdee3e2595ef89cfb887206\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! Of course, one of the jobs of a chief whip is to not get a great big deal of attention. If you do get attention, you\u2019re doing the job wrong. But it was a real privilege to manage a large caucus in a way which let the Ministers in Cabinet do their job and make sure that the backbenchers were meaningfully engaged in supporting that ministry. I want to give a shout-out to all the whips past and present: keep it up, keep out of the news.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMost MPs\u2019 headlines don\u2019t hit the headlines, my own included, but I do want to recognise the importance of every MP that comes here, both in their own caucus and in ushering through important legislation. I can actually remember a real sense of pride as we sat in the Environment Committee passing the zero carbon Act, thinking this can change the direction of climate change in New Zealand and the world. That is something which is a very special place to be, and it happens here a lot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI was also very lucky to be given a ministerial role, Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs\u2014not glamorous, and that\u2019s probably why I got it, but I actually did really enjoy the work there, particularly the consumer-oriented stuff. Obviously, the insurance contracts bill that Andrew Bayly mucked up. I actually thought that was an important piece of work that\u2019s going to change a lot of what goes on in New Zealand. I did learn, in that role, that banks, supermarkets, insurers, and the like are articulate, well organised, well funded, and very close to Government. Any Government needs to work equally as hard to hear from those on the other side of those conversations, and there\u2019s still a lot of work to do there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EDon\u2019t worry, Mr Speaker. I\u2019ve spoken to Matua Adrian, and he said I can take as long as I like. No, look, it\u2019s usual to thank a few people in these speeches, and I suppose I should. Firstly, Suzanne, who\u2019s tolerated me and nine years of politics, which isn\u2019t easy\u2014it\u2019s probably more public service than anything I have ever done. Thanks for your patience and your wisdom and for keeping me grounded and for all that time that I\u2019ve taken from you. My kids are here\u2014Albert, Lewis, and Felix. Keep it real. Treat me with disdain and scepticism! Only young men can master that. But it\u2019s been really important to me to have them, and it\u2019s great that they\u2019re here tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn Christchurch, Sonya Rowell\u2019s been my electorate office manager since 2017, and that\u2019s quite some feat. Some people say we\u2019re like an old married couple, but I didn\u2019t think it was quite that bad. Thanks to her and all the many staff who\u2019ve helped me out in that office. Of course, there is the Wellington crew. Frank, Marleen, and Casper have helped me as executive assistants here and have tried to manage the chaos. Also Claire Szabo, who\u2019s here today as well. She was my ministerial adviser, and she really looked after me. There were a couple of occasions\u2014or perhaps more; I\u2019m not quite sure\u2014where she disappeared letters that I had written handwritten responses to people on, telling them what I really thought. They would appear the next week as clean copies that were safe to sign. So thanks for that, Claire. You didn\u2019t save the Government, but you did save me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPolitics is a local activity, and I want to thank those people who helped me on the ground. When I started campaigning in 2017, John Key was Prime Minister, and Labour, to be fair, was in the doldrums. Christchurch had a National MP, and people thought I was mad to give up a job in law and come here\u2014they may be right. By election day, much had changed. Bill English was the leader of the National Party, Jacinda was our leader\u2014and a rising tide lifts all boats, but I was also lifted by absolutely hundreds of not just Labour Party members but supporters and friends who had a belief in me. That is a huge thing, so I want to thank them all. They are truly too numerous to name. Some of them are here tonight, but thank you very much. The only one I\u2019ll call out is Aaron Campbell, who\u2019s here today. He campaign managed three campaigns. He\u2019s got an eye for detail and energy and obsession that pays absolute dividends. Thank you, Aaron. Of course, every campaign gets the odd disgruntled volunteer, but not everyone becomes a National Party MP. Thank you, Vanessa Weenink.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI also want to thank the people of Christchurch for your support, because I don\u2019t think a constituency MP can actually do the job unless they have a fairly broad base of support across a broad section of their community\u2014across party political lines. Obviously, as a constituency MP, you want to see the best for all of your constituents. I think that it\u2019s been a real privilege to work with business, with community groups, and with schools across the board in Christchurch. It\u2019s been a real honour to be the MP for a fabulous central city electorate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn terms of this place\u2014look, this is an odd place, and I think sometimes you need to reflect on that. To be honest, as you kind of slowly slide into the shadows, you see it in stark relief. It\u2019s got a strange mixture of tradition, procedure, personalities, and institution, but the thing I love most about it is that it\u2019s representative. That is exactly what it should be. From the four corners of the country, we come here, and we bring a diverse group of voices to the arguments and discussions we have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETo be fair, when you\u2019re a lawyer, you do have to have a certain degree of arrogance, particularly as a litigation lawyer, and so when I arrived here, I did thank I was going to do OK. It didn\u2019t take me long to work out that I had to take a big chunk of humble pie and recognise that I was back in school. I actually want to give a shout-out to my M\u0101ori colleagues in particular, who have been really good in both nurturing me and also leveraging a little bit of my skills. I think we\u2019ve worked really good together on some massive issues. I do remember one Waitangi when Kelvin Davis was there, and he kind of did that with his head\u2014you know, that \u201CGet over here, boy\u201D. As I walked over, he\u2019s got this inscrutable face, and he looked at me, and he said, \u201CI saw your video on the Treaty principles bill.\u201D I thought, \u201COh my God! I\u2019ve done it wrong\u2014big tikanga breach.\u201D, and he just did this wry smile and said, \u201CIt was good.\u201D That\u2019s pretty high praise. That\u2019s about as good as it gets from Kelvin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESometimes the antics that go on here bring this place into a bit of disrepute, but I think everyone around here understands that it\u2019s actually important that we apply ourselves to good legislating and good government. The rules are strange, the hours are oppressive, and the place is foreboding, and sometimes there\u2019s more performance than policy, but, ultimately, it\u2019s a place of hard work, and it should be, because this is the centrepiece of our democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI just want to mention that the oil that runs this place, of course, are the many staff. Their attitude, their kindness, their friendliness, and their manner makes our job so much easier. It\u2019s exemplified by the day I arrived here. It was all very exciting, and I had my new swipe card. I came back about half past 9 at night and thought, \u201CI\u2019ll have a look around the building to get my bearings.\u201D, and I got hopelessly lost. I was in the depths of the basement, with the buzzer going that I couldn\u2019t go through that door, when I was stopped by a security guard. When I said, \u201CLook, I\u2019m a new MP and I\u2019m having a look around, his face lit up, and he said, \u201CSweet.\u201D I got a one-on-one tour, for an hour and a half, of the entire building. The oldest urinal is in the old library building. It\u2019s the place to go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe do reflect on this place, and it\u2019s usual to say that things are going to hell in a handbasket. This place isn\u2019t falling apart, but we do need to be vigilant. It\u2019s so precious. I do think we do need to be wary of excessive lobbying, of an excessive use of urgency, and of retrospective legislation, and we need to be constantly vigilant that whoever has the Treasury benches values not just the rules but the principles that underpin our democracy. If we don\u2019t do that, the frustrations will spill out of here on to the streets outside.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the media because they have a\u2014thanks for coming. They do such an important role, and I think they do it, on the whole, very, very well indeed. They keep us honest. I actually knew my career was on the slide when Luke Malpass did one of his ministerial kind of \u201CHow Ministers are doing\u201D, and he said, \u201Cand then there\u2019s Duncan Webb\u2014affable and competent\u201D\u2014damned by faint praise. I\u2019ve been questioned by media on all kinds of things\u2014insurance, law, consumer data rights, earthquake recovery, and so on and so on\u2014but the best question ever was about two weeks into my time here when Jenna Lynch said, \u201CDo you still think it\u2019s OK to eat kiwi?\u201D You need context for that one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESome might think it\u2019s surprising that I\u2019m calling it a day, but this is the longest I\u2019ve ever held down one job\u2014not a proper one. But I\u2019ll miss this place a lot, and I\u2019ll miss these people a lot. This is a fantastic group of people. It\u2019s a fantastic Labour caucus. From the outside, it looks unified, focused, and committed. From the inside, it\u2019s pretty much that as well\u2014believe it or not\u2014and, Chris, that\u2019s a real credit to your leadership. You\u2019ve done an amazing job. We are here, and it\u2019s going to be a tough election, but this caucus is ready to govern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI leave optimistic about this place, about Parliament, about Christchurch, and actually about New Zealand. Christchurch Central will be well served by its next candidate, George Hampton. If I could offer him one piece of advice, it would be this: \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003Eka tae koe ki te whareumu, tihorea te k\u016Bmara\u003C/span\u003E\u2014when you get to the kitchen, peel the k\u016Bmara. This place is full of noise, drama, strategy, process, personalities, ego, but in the end, the job is actually very simple: find those people that need help, find the fix, do the mahi. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EApplause\u003C/span\u003E]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EWaiata\u2014\u201CT\u016Btira Mai Ng\u0101 Iwi\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterItalicsCentred\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6.01 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002249425da7bdbe6b5b3060609a25fdff2e\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222fd18d372e237393f174cc994e9b7380\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2026/27 Estimates) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d09f13d0d67bf000432eefd45904ff2c\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u2014Estimates Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e93afac7e342973f5a8107d420d6212b\u0022\u003EEnvironment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276bdf9c276f08f61d6a1bf6d85c533d7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the committee is resumed. We now have the Minister for the Environment. The Minister is available to speak to that portfolio from 7.30 p.m. to 8.30 p.m. I\u2019ll give the call to Catherine Wedd, Chairperson of the Environment Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c562dc86e974914b8878595e580f138\u0022 data-id=\u0022a68d0d85d48697a9af70f995880ebf09\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c562dc86e974914b8878595e580f138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a68d0d85d48697a9af70f995880ebf09\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (Chairperson of the Environment Committee) (19:30)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d just like to take this opportunity to acknowledge the Ministry for Cities, Environment, Regions and Transport (MCERT), because most of our examination that we did back in June for Vote Environment took place before MCERT was established on 1 July. Obviously, now that ministry is established. We did speak a lot about that during our examinations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe appropriations sought for Vote Environment in 2026/27 total $2.166 billion, but the bulk of this funding is the responsibility of the Minister of Climate Change, while the Minister for the Environment was responsible for appropriations totalling $376 million. During the appropriations for Vote Environment, we heard about the waste disposal levy, Environmental Investment Fund, tyre stewardship fees, and activity that related to waste minimisation work. During our discussions, the focus also included the transition of the environment functions to MCERT, to the new ministry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe also spoke heavily around the resource management reform and the appropriations that were directed to Resource Management Act reform\u2014obviously a big job of our Environment Committee. During these discussions, we also spoke about the freshwater farm plans. The Fast-track Approvals Act was also part of what we spoke about and what we heard during this time, and, of course, product stewardship\u2014Tyrewise, as we\u2019ve already spoken about. Other matters considered include the city and regional deals, renewable energy, and upcoming legislation, as well: the Agricultural Compounds and Veterinary Medicines Amendment Bill and the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Amendment Bill, and, of course, the Waste Minimisation Fund. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI would just like to thank the Environment Committee for the work around Vote Environment and appropriations and Estimates. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bdf559ed9d4dac70d9c8ad1a60bd8f8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I take a call, I just want to clarify with the Minister: so we have Minister Grigg and Minister Hoggard here at the moment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ff71fb294ca868305351d1d53ecbefe\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Grigg\u003C/span\u003E: And Minister Bishop will join at 8.00 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224eb99084fd0a3d4bfe216e2bb09026ac\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Thank you. The Hon Rachel Brooking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd3847179f2b136f0676a2806947b1cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd3847179f2b136f0676a2806947b1cc\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin) (19:33)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for the clarification. I\u2019d like to start with waste tonight. I know that there will be lots of questions about the range of issues, but for anyone who didn\u2019t hear, it was that Minister Bishop is coming around 8 o\u2019clock, and Minister Hoggard is here for the whole thing, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022290572b6081f2ec89ac3e0aa64462d66\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227070ed21e5b5fc7abefe9388ee3c6568\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: And no Minister Watts, I presume? For climate? No\u2014OK. So, waste legislation: we might have some climate questions for you, then, Minister, given that the Estimates report included that and, as the chair of the Environment Committee said, most of the Budget is, in fact, related to the emissions trading scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fd4c686a1544bcb0a5f6548be17ef8b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I can clarify for the member that climate is not currently included.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f559a43f535f5d162ec60e8e3796c761\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Now, waste legislation. The Minister will be aware, of course, that at the end of last term there was legislation that was ready to be drafted to modernise the Waste Minimisation Act and also the Litter Act. If she could give us an update of where that is at\u2014it mentioned in the select committee report that it was ongoing, so when will that bill be introduced?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EAnd then my next question is that her predecessor and the Ministry for the Environment sort of banned the use of the term \u201Ccircular economy\u201D. I have heard other members from her party embrace this term \u201Ccircular economy\u201D\u2014looking at you, Grant McCallum. Does the Minister have a position on \u201Ccircular economy\u201D and will that be included in the legislation, or does she agree with her predecessor that it\u2019s merely an ideological term?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022 data-id=\u002223d29beab7f8b79b9cdbff1c90d65f47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223d29beab7f8b79b9cdbff1c90d65f47\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG (Minister for the Environment) (19:35)\u003C/span\u003E: Good evening, members. It\u2019s a pleasure to join with you here this evening. As has been noted, I\u2019m joined by Minister Hoggard and Minister Bishop is on his way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m happy to answer questions around the progress of the Waste Minimisation Act amendments. I do intend to reform the Waste Minimisation Act and the Litter Act to ensure that New Zealand has a fit for purpose and modern waste legislation that, I think, does need to provide more flexibility and more options to reduce waste efficiently and effectively. In October last year, the Cabinet approved policy proposals for the waste legislation and for the Parliamentary Counsel Office to commence drafting the bill. Unfortunately, we seem to have run out of runway. I would humbly request that Her Majesty\u2019s loyal Opposition perhaps utilise the time that we have remaining in the House this parliamentary term wisely and perhaps we might get more bills introduced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELook, you will be aware that public consultation has been carried out and it closed in June 2025. There are a number of proposals that have been consulted on, particularly around creating frameworks for extended producer responsibilities, which is an area of work that I am very keen to lean into when we have the time, because I think it is a very, very good model that will allow New Zealand to very much improve recovery and recycling of materials and products.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere will be changes to how the waste disposal levy is allocated, particularly to territorial authorities and how they might consider spending it. There will be an opportunity to improve and provide more proportionate tools for compliance and monitoring and enforcement. I\u2019ve had a number of members of Parliament from parts of Auckland who are concerned about increases in littering, and they are looking forward to more opportunities for compliance and enforcement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAs to particular vernacular chosen or declined to be used by previous members and Ministers, I can provide no comment on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8dffdb813aa3f3814f3ade998dcc87d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8dffdb813aa3f3814f3ade998dcc87d\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin) (19:37)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Well, of course, I was asking the Minister what her view on the circular economy is and if that\u2019s a term that she is allowing the part of the ministry that reports to her to use. That\u2019s the question on circular economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAnd then, in response to the answer, will the new legislation contain any waste reduction targets? That\u2019s a specific question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Minister mentioned the waste levy and how there will be changes to that, particularly to district councils, to territorial authorities. Will waste minimisation activities be able to be funded by that levy? That is the first question about the levy. The second question is if she can confirm to the House that the general approach\u2014and this goes beyond waste\u2014to funding Vote Environment is to take the waste levy, feed it back into the part of the Ministry of Cities, Environment, Regions and Transport that is the Vote Environment, and then reduce the funding that comes from the centre to go into Vote Environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203a9a78995df41d999aa5550770febd3\u0022 data-id=\u002218b887ad29ea78da3487c0240b0c66bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203a9a78995df41d999aa5550770febd3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218b887ad29ea78da3487c0240b0c66bd\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green) (19:38)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to touch loosely on the very clear distinction that has been made between the last Budget and this Budget, and that is the formation of the Ministry for Cities, Environment, Regions and Transport (MCERT). I wanted to ask the Minister specifically about that, because despite not one Government party campaigning on it and not one credible submission in support, the Government did move to disestablish the Ministry for the Environment and that core dedicated voice for the environment that had been in place for 40 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI\u2019m interested because the Minister at the time said that she wanted to assure New Zealanders that this bill signals a new chapter for environmental management in New Zealand. My question specifically about that is: does she mean improved environmental outcomes, and what specific outcomes does she envisage will be strengthened by the disestablishment of the Ministry for the Environment and it being subsumed into this MCERT ministry? Really keen to hear that. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022 data-id=\u0022637c9279b5da5f8e26883ea832ed5e22\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022637c9279b5da5f8e26883ea832ed5e22\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin) (19:40)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Moving on, then, to the Ministry for Cities, Environment, Regions and Transport (MCERT) as well. The select committee report-back noted that: \u201CThe Minister told us that she intends to set clear expectations for the incoming Secretary and chief executive, that environmental considerations are to be paramount in policy development, consent considerations, and anything else that MCERT looks at.\u201D Can she give this House an update on whether or not she has in fact acted on that intention and set those clear expectations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022 data-id=\u00224373fff0e32043bd7df0087b7418fe95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224373fff0e32043bd7df0087b7418fe95\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG (Minister for the Environment) (19:40)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I am happy to give a little bit more detail on that. I think I said last time we were here in this House, that with the formation of the Ministry for Cities, Environment, Regions and Transport (MCERT), and thanks to the work of the Environment Committee, there is now a requirement of the Secretary for the Environment to report on the performance of their Environment Act functions every year, and for that to be included in MCERT\u2019s annual report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFurther to that, I do want to reassure the committee that since I informed the committee of that information, the Secretary for the Environment has set about establishing a new role in his office, in the Office of the Chief Executive, that will specifically assist with developing the approach to undertake the Environment Act functions\u2014and, of course, preparing those quarterly reports on the progress as well as the annual report that\u2019s required by the Environment Act. It\u2019s envisaged that the interim role will provide independent\u2014I think that\u2019s a really important point to make: it\u2019s independent advice, independent visibility and assurance to the Secretary regarding their performances under the Environment Act functions across MCERT.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s the whole point of the merger. It\u2019s to stop the siloing that\u2019s been occurring and to make sure those functions are occurring across the new ministry. The future of that role will be considered through the MCERT operating model process, but I\u2019m really looking forward to seeing the impact that it will have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022 data-id=\u00228b7e1363d61b2e6cd24917107b5a11c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b7e1363d61b2e6cd24917107b5a11c1\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour) (19:42)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair, and I thank the Minister for that information that she shared. I\u2019ve got a couple of questions around the environmental advice piece within the Ministry for Cities, Environment, Regions and Transport (MCERT). During the Estimates examination for this particular Vote, when we asked for details around that, the response that we were given was that MCERT\u2019s operational practices at the time were yet to be determined. And so I wonder whether the Minister would be able to give us a little bit more insight into that piece within MCERT, whether the operational practices that were previously mentioned have in fact been put in place, and what they look like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat went back to the point that many of us on this side of the House raised during Estimates examinations around how Ministers responsible would be able to\u2014with the amalgamation and Vote environment moving into this new ministry, how would members have any comfort that environmental advice will remain sufficiently prominent within MCERT, given that the chief executive of MCERT is also the secretary for everything, all of the things, cities, transport, environment and so on and so forth? We were quite concerned that environmental advice, specifically both around the urban environment but also the natural environment, would be subsumed within this larger ministry. So really keen to get a sense from the Minister around what those practices are that have been put in place to ensure that that advice retains its prominence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got a couple of other questions related to the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment\u2019s recent report around environmental information, and a particular Budget line within Budget \u201826 as well. But I\u2019ll see if the Minister would like to answer this bit first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc36e39aa6735de9971368bb03dc154a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc36e39aa6735de9971368bb03dc154a\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG (Minister for the Environment) (19:44)\u003C/span\u003E: her I thank the member for her question. Look, I\u2019m aware of the concern that was raised, particularly during that select committee process, and indeed by members of the Opposition, that the disestablishment bill would somehow subsume, to use the member\u2019s words, the environment functions or that they\u2019d be deprioritised as they became a part of a larger ministry. But again, and I have said this a number of times, those amendments simply transferred the Ministry for the Environment\u2019s existing functions to the Secretary for the Environment, and they will\u2014and I expect that they will\u2014continue to be performed appropriately by that new ministry. Again, to be clear, and I\u2019ve said this a number of times, the previous statutory functions under the other Acts do continue to be performed. And, you know, it is my expectation that the environmental capability does remain a core capability within the new agency. That includes, of course\u2014and I\u2019m sure Minister Bishop talked to it\u2014the implementation of the resource management reforms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI have to say, you know, I think I\u2019ve had the portfolio for nearly five months now, but the more I get to know the officials within the Ministry for Cities, Environment, Regions and Transport, who were once the officials of the Ministry for the Environment\u2014I would call them world class. I think we\u2019re very, very lucky to be to be supported by such high-calibre experts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022 data-id=\u00224c53b8a4b10524c6974a4d9ac18c08d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c53b8a4b10524c6974a4d9ac18c08d0\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour) (19:46)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I take the Minister\u2019s point that the intentions and expectations that Ministers hold is for the environment not to be deprioritised, and that is good. I also have absolutely no objection to what the Minister said about the quality and calibre of officials in our Public Service. However, I would like some comfort from the Minister in terms of how those intentions will be realised. Because while it\u2019s one thing to say that it\u2019s a lift and shift off Vote Environment and the priorities of the Ministry for the Environment into a much larger ministry, having been previously a Minister who held portfolios that were serviced by a larger ministry, I do have some experience as to how it could be subsumed or deprioritised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EWhile the intention is not that, I would like some comfort from the Minister in terms of what practices have been put in place to ensure that there is the same quality of advice, that there\u2019s timeliness around the environmental advice that is provided or received from the ministry. How many staff, for example, have transferred over from the former Ministry for the Environment into the Ministry for Cities, Environment, Regions and Transport? Who will specifically provide the Government with advice around both the built and natural environments? And if it is continues to be a priority for the Minister that there is independent advice around both aspects of the environment, what particularly has been put in place to ensure that that is actually delivered?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022 data-id=\u00227d652dbcbc4855251c1c72d069c64b7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d652dbcbc4855251c1c72d069c64b7e\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG (Minister for the Environment) (19:47)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to again reassure the House that we are very much committed to ensuring that the Ministry for Cities, Environment, Regions and Transport (MCERT) continues to prioritise the environment. I\u2019ve already outlined that the Secretary for the Environment has already established a new interim role in his office to help with developing the approach that will undertake all of the environment functions and to make sure that they remain front and centre of this new ministry. And again, in establishing MCERT the Government is neither removing nor diluting the environmental responsibilities. They\u2019ve transferred, unchanged, into that statutory role of the Secretary for the Environment\u2014who does remain directly accountable to the Minister of the day, which happens to be me at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ETo answer your questions around staffing, I can tell you that 621 permanent full-time equivalent (FTE) have transferred from the Ministry for the Environment to MCERT as of 1 July 2026, and 125 fixed-term FTE transferred.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240ad5fdb354d8d11ccac5d448b2b6629\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Lan Pham. And I\u2019ll just make a note that Minister Bishop is now here, too, and also available for questions. So we have all three Ministers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203a9a78995df41d999aa5550770febd3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1a973259b44c3dac6aa7121bc531e8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203a9a78995df41d999aa5550770febd3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1a973259b44c3dac6aa7121bc531e8d\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green) (19:49)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. What a treat, Madam Chair, thank you. I wanted to pick up on freshwater, and particularly\u2014I\u2019ve just come from a lecture by Dr Tim Chambers, who spelt out really clearly that we\u2019ve had a massive increase, particularly, in dairy herd numbers across the country. It\u2019s gone from 100,000 cows in 1990 to 1 million just in Canterbury alone. Over that time, we\u2019ve had a threefold increase in nitrogen fertiliser application.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAs a result, there are numerous studies and research and even the Minister\u2019s own data which shows nitrate pollution in many of the country\u2019s drinking water sources, but particularly around Canterbury and Southland are now breaching drinking water standards. Communities are having to pick up the costs. For example, there have been numerous schools currently in Ashburton who cannot drink the water and are having to dig deeper bores to search for water that is less polluted than they currently have. We have Selwyn and Christchurch both facing bills in the hundreds of millions to treat their drinking water for increasing nitrates, and the Government has put in place, unfortunately, rules that are going to exacerbate this issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m really interested in the Minister\u2019s response, particularly when it comes to the environmental health aspects of nitrate pollution. How is her Government addressing this and what does she expect the environmental implications will be over the next few years, particularly as the new planning regime is put in place that this Government is so set on putting in place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022 data-id=\u0022492e7437bce3167a167399ea16482cf2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022492e7437bce3167a167399ea16482cf2\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG (Minister for the Environment) (19:51)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank the member for her question. I don\u2019t want to get into a debate over data and her sources versus my sources, but the information that I have been given today from the Ministry for Cities, Environment, Regions and Transport is that cattle numbers are actually declining in Canterbury. At so-called peak cow, 2023, there were 1.36 million cattle, and I\u2019m rounding here. As of late last year, it was 1.33 million, so, again, we can\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203a9a78995df41d999aa5550770febd3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e035461ab5a1cfe838e3786fb852f853\u0022\u003ELan Pham\u003C/span\u003E: So worse than what I was saying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bbb37eb0da14442468f3204e65cd35d\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it has declined. Look, we can debate those numbers until the cows come home\u2014bada boom. Look, equally, what I would say is there are conflicting reports across Canterbury and, yes, there absolutely are areas that are reporting nitrogen increases and they have to be dealt to. I\u2019m sure the Minister Hoggard will be able to talk to that effusively at some point, but, again, there are a lot of variances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI can talk specifically to Canterbury as a Canterbury-based MP. I suspect that the data you might be referring to has come from the regional council. If you look to some of the actual irrigation providers, which have, in my view, far, far more robust measuring capacity\u2014different depths, different sequencing, more frequent intervals. I think every 15 seconds was the last count I got given. If you look to Central Plains Water who irrigate 45,000 hectares, they\u2019re actually showing that 60 percent of their dedicated groundwater monitoring bores are seeing a reduction in nitrates, and that trend has been very evident over the past five years of the data I\u2019ve got. Again, it\u2019s not perfect, but there is a material improvement being shown. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELook, interestingly, they have actually also, as a scheme, reduced groundwater use by 75 million cubic metres, which is actually equivalent to 22,000 Olympic swimming pools, for those who were interested. But, look, we all accept that agriculture does have an impact, but we note that the most significant reductions across the Canterbury plains have been made on-farm and I think collectively we need to start to look to the urban environments and the pollution that they are causing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227d19573a8ba4d8283b17374978c8ea2\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4322908894bb1199684a8c8517c4cc8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227d19573a8ba4d8283b17374978c8ea2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4322908894bb1199684a8c8517c4cc8\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland) (19:53)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Just for the Minister, is she aware of some of the research and the progress the farmers are making in Canterbury, with research into aquifer recharge and the use of plantain and the research that has come out of that which shows that a 17 percent increase in the pasture content of plantain can lead to a 33 percent reduction in nitrate levels? Would she care to comment on that and other work farmers are doing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022 data-id=\u002262a1563ba14c755adafbb15cdd93f550\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262a1563ba14c755adafbb15cdd93f550\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG (Minister for the Environment) (19:54)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I thank the member for that question. Look, I think\u2014and, well, I might as well sit down if Grant McCallum made the best contribution of the night. Look, again, there are real gains being made. I note that of their own volition, I think farmers have fenced off some 25,000 kilometres of waterways around the country. Stock exclusion rules are in place and winter grazing rules are in place. I\u2019ll invite Minister Hoggard to get up and talk about the freshwater farm plan announcement that he made today, but certainly I think we all should collectively accept, as a Parliament, there are parts of the freshwater system across this country which have been degraded and I think collectively we have to work towards improving them. I think with the new planning regime, that lightens up on the low-intensity areas but comes down a bit more heavily on the high-intensity areas. I think there will be gains to be made out of that. Minister Hoggard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fa370c0016e740998a2816116c8e4365\u0022 data-id=\u0022c443d37d4bfcb28a7d869a6b1fd4580d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fa370c0016e740998a2816116c8e4365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c443d37d4bfcb28a7d869a6b1fd4580d\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD (Associate Minister for the Environment) (19:55)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Minister, for that. I totally agree. I think I\u2019ve said it before, but when I started dairy farming in 1998, the attitude of farmers was way different than what it is today. Back then it was \u201CNo, we\u2019re not part of the problem. We\u2019re not causing anything. Go away. Leave us alone.\u201D Now the attitude is far different. You\u2019ve got catchment groups up and down the country. You\u2019ve got people looking at what options they can do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EJust touching on the farm plans, I did a trial run on my farm and it was very informative in terms of being able to highlight the parts of your farm\u2014what the soil types are, what the risk factors are, what the challenges are that can be caused to the environment, and coming up with solutions in terms of how you mitigate that. The farmers being engaged in the space and coming up with tools that work alongside them will help that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAs the member Grant McCullum mentioned, great news on the plantain. We\u2019re seeing more and more of that being planted around the country, and I\u2019ve mentioned bioreactors and engineered wetlands before. Part of the new system is we\u2019re going to make them a permitted activity to put in an engineered wetland. I was blown away over some of the visits I\u2019ve done with community groups who had built engineered wetlands to do all this great work to remove contaminants. They had to spend upwards of $100,000 on consents to be able to build this. It was improving the environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re moving in the right direction in terms of coming up with these solutions. The farmers are in the right mindset to do this. We need to move out of the blame game and work towards how we\u2019re going to improve all of this. We know what caused it and we\u2019ve just got to work towards coming up with solutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022 data-id=\u00229942a16866229d8033d1f75962014030\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229942a16866229d8033d1f75962014030\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin) (19:57)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Just reminding the Minister of my questions about her view on the circular economy, whether waste minimisation activities will be able to be funded by the remaining waste levy, whether the legislation has waste reduction targets, and if my potted history of how funding for Vote Environment happens via the waste levy is correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMoving to the freshwater farm plans that we seem to have moved on to, a small question: the Minister cited a number there about cattle. I guess the question is how does that reflect dairy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThen for Minister Hoggard, I note in our Environment Committee report we talked about the gaps where catchment groups are not set up or where one member of a community is not a member. In those areas, the Minister said it is important that challenges are still identified and addressed. I\u2019m interested in the addressing of those challenges that the Minister intends to do, but in particular, I\u2019m interested in the relationship to proposed local government change and the getting rid of regional councils that are largely based at a catchment level. What are the plans for keeping that catchment approach? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThen a question for the Minister for the Environment: is she advocating for catchments and catchments as an important unit for any resource management?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e95464de6a580bf976d94ceeb895c0f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: All of the above.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fa370c0016e740998a2816116c8e4365\u0022 data-id=\u0022c65297e9be0737b36fd4b3a682021cc4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fa370c0016e740998a2816116c8e4365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c65297e9be0737b36fd4b3a682021cc4\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD (Associate Minister for the Environment) (19:58)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll try and deal with the farm plan question. I believe what I was talking about in the previous situation was where not everyone in a catchment might be a member of a catchment care group. That\u2019s why it was important for every individual farm to have a farm plan, so that even if they weren\u2019t being part of the group effort, they were still recognising the challenge on their farm and taking actions to improve it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u0022428062aee9cd551b955565c68c190cd5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022428062aee9cd551b955565c68c190cd5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform) (19:59)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. T\u0113n\u0101 koe to the committee. In relation to local government reform, I think the point the member makes in relation to catchments is an important one and is certainly something we are thinking about when it comes to the next steps on the Head Start pathway and broader local government reforms. That was one of the criteria that was listed in the Head Start document that people have been cogitating over over the last few weeks and months and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a0b3ec0a674748228eab634d679dd5d\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Panicking over.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227307d437b09d64d4376a70bfafce8768\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c70a4b89a3d978db74832272bce0aa81\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Panicking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b4e61cdf1e76b33f326572825b22b3e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t know about panicking. I mean, what\u2019s interesting is there\u2019s quite a bit of desire from some councils to crack on with it\u2014that\u2019s why Head Start was started: people said, \u201CRather than you guys run through some long-winded process, we\u2019re keen on cracking on with it,\u201D and we said, \u201COK, well, come and give us your best shot.\u201D We haven\u2019t made decisions on it yet, and once we\u2019re in a position to do that, we will make announcements in due course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203a9a78995df41d999aa5550770febd3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3965208fc6bcf7e7807bd396ecf783d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203a9a78995df41d999aa5550770febd3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3965208fc6bcf7e7807bd396ecf783d\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green) (20:00)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Other than a sunny attitude of farmers, I wasn\u2019t hearing anything that would practically address the very real issues that I just outlined, which I won\u2019t repeat. What I am really interested in is asking about the cost to New Zealanders of the fact that numerous plans, particularly that pertain to fresh water, will not be able to be implemented, even though there\u2019s been millions of dollars put into them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI particularly want to touch on two instances of this. It was reported just recently that after the numerous horrific cyclones up in Gisborne, Tair\u0101whiti, and unfortunate tragedies that occurred in the aftermath, Gisborne District Council came up with a plan that would actually urgently tackle those forestry issues and the destructive land use that is currently going on across Tair\u0101whiti. This was through a regional plan change, Plan Change 7, that was proposed to protect erosion-prone land\u2014but this plan change couldn\u2019t go ahead because of this Government\u2019s plan-stop legislation, and they asked for an exemption and they didn\u2019t get it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, the same is happening when it comes to the Waikato, when it comes to Otago, and when it comes to Canterbury. Regions are ready and in place to put in rules and frameworks that will actually help their environment and help their communities. What I\u2019m really interested to know is who does the Government expect will pay the costs of these issues remaining unaddressed for the years that are to come when it comes to health costs, when it comes to a lack of recreational opportunities, the costs of ecosystems passing tipping points, or impacts on our international clean, green image? This is even extending to the cost of illness from polluted drinking water. These are serious costs that are being borne by community, and I\u2019d really like to hear what the Government is proposing to do in this space. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdb8e0a7d35c5a5bef104b1c954d07d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdb8e0a7d35c5a5bef104b1c954d07d6\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform) (20:03)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d just proffer a small comment, Madam Chair. The plan-stop process is not perfect\u2014I don\u2019t think anyone pretends that it is\u2014but it\u2019s a pragmatic attempt to deal with the transition problem we\u2019ve got, right. The law is the law until it isn\u2019t, OK. The Resource Management Act (RMA) provides that people do regular plan changes and councils update their plans all the time. Sometimes they\u2019re small, sometimes they\u2019re large. At a certain level, we just decided\u2014and Parliament, in fact, agreed through the RMA consenting and other matters bill last year\u2014that there had to be a point at which you say, \u201CWell, hang on\u2014tie-ho\u2014and we\u2019ve got to get ready for the new system.\u201D There obviously had to be exemptions for that, and so there\u2019s been a range of pathways\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da1cd123fefe35ae015270700b876be5\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: We didn\u2019t agree.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c118ac939edd13051a4f271300c92885\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dbe843dd08e5637d7463a86a9a75a73\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Opposition parties didn\u2019t agree. You say Parliament sought it, but that\u2019s because you\u2019ve got a majority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299ec4bef52128a93ea0cdd06a7c8a65a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is actually the way Parliament works. When Parliament agrees to something\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2a443c8f9df63624db9263fbb2ff64c\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: The way you\u2019re saying it is making it sound as if we were all in agreement, and we weren\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2ba6f215b1b602a7ae452730f844130\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Parliament agreeing to something is, by definition\u2014it can either be by majority or by unanimity. That does mean Parliament agrees. That is the reality. That is the way our parliamentary democracy works.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAnyway, I have the power as the Minister responsible for RMA Reform to grant exemptions. Some have been granted\u2014in fact, many exemptions have been granted. Others have not. Speaking generally, the more complicated the plan change, the less likely it is to happen now, because we didn\u2019t want to find ourselves in a situation where a three- to five-year long plan change process is under way\u2014because sometimes they can take a long time\u2014that was happening simultaneously as everyone was gearing up for transition to the new system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s not to say that the impetus for the plan changes is not important. Many of the issues the member is raising are important. It\u2019s not that. It\u2019s that, at some level, they have to happen in a different system, otherwise you end up with this endless duplication and churn and endless cost. And so, that\u2019s where the position is. I accept it\u2019s not perfect, but environmental law often isn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022 data-id=\u002201ca195a13b4077df3acb13d8bc0d6c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201ca195a13b4077df3acb13d8bc0d6c5\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin) (20:05)\u003C/span\u003E: To that Minister: do the complex plans that he\u2019s talking to happen to relate to water quality?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u002243e603b028f18f8b4e6f34335322d326\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243e603b028f18f8b4e6f34335322d326\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform) (20:05)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it depends. There\u2019s been heaps of different plan changes\u2014they\u2019re all on the Ministry for the Environment website; the member can look for herself, and the member can see the law has the various different exemption pathways through, as well. So the short answer is that it depends. They\u2019re across a whole range of different things. Some issues are to do with water; many others are not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9d638838c5e7b714d6df780b1a55af5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9d638838c5e7b714d6df780b1a55af5\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin) (20:06)\u003C/span\u003E: Reminding the Minister for the Environment about my waste questions; and, also, the cattle versus dairy; and if she has been advocating for catchments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EGoing to Minister Hoggard: we were at the Environment Committee talking about the nitrogen cap and the low compliance with it. My question is whether there\u2019s any further movement on\u2014if he has an update on his approach towards a nitrogen cap and if there has been any additional work on compliance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fa370c0016e740998a2816116c8e4365\u0022 data-id=\u00228bfb01de25b09587f88d8fdbf1158b48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fa370c0016e740998a2816116c8e4365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228bfb01de25b09587f88d8fdbf1158b48\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD (Associate Minister for the Environment) (20:06)\u003C/span\u003E: In terms of additional work, no, there hasn\u2019t. Obviously, there will be a new system we will have\u2014and it\u2019ll be in the next term of Government\u2014that determines what the national standards on all of this are. So that won\u2019t be happening anytime in the next five weeks. In terms of compliance work, I don\u2019t believe that fits under my delegation, so I haven\u2019t heard anything on that. One of the other Ministers may have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022 data-id=\u002244346e78dee5d91032d0fb54517a364a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244346e78dee5d91032d0fb54517a364a\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG (Minister for the Environment) (20:07)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to confirm to the member Rachel Brooking, they were dairy cattle numbers that I was referring to. Yes, I advocate on behalf of catchment groups. I meet with them regularly. I also approved a transfer of some funds from the former Ministry for the Environment to the Ministry for Primary Industries to go in towards supporting catchment groups.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ERegarding the question on waste levy, yes, money is available for waste minimisation as well as wider environmental benefits. That\u2019s why the rules were changed a year or so ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ERegarding targets, there are not targets in the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022 data-id=\u002235d91bbcf460491787c6b169b61ebd64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235d91bbcf460491787c6b169b61ebd64\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin) (20:08)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m going to move to resource management reform, and I want to again ask the Minister what she is doing in terms of advocacy for the environment with that. I\u2019d like to start with asking her if she\u2019s thought about advocating for future generations within that legislation. That may be because I have just been with the chair at a group talking about future generations, but, of course, the Resource Management Act does refer to future generations and all of those ideas have very much come out of the legislation, which is soon to have its committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhen I was asking the Minister about catchments and advocacy for catchments, it was not just catchment groups; it is the idea of using a catchment as a tool for environmental planning, and particularly around water. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also like her to comment further on a remark she just made in this House about how the resource management reforms are \u201Clighter in some areas but harder in other areas,\u201D or words to that effect, and if she can give some examples of where the new resource management legislation is going to be \u201Charder\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022 data-id=\u00226af69f12dfba632c59ec000880abefd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226af69f12dfba632c59ec000880abefd4\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG (Minister for the Environment) (20:09)\u003C/span\u003E: To clarify, I was talking about freshwater farm plans, and it\u2019s been made very clear in the press release just this evening that there will be a lighter touch for low-intensity activity and more rigorous auditing for high-intensity activity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EJust responding to the query around thinking about future generations\u2014well, I would submit to this Parliament that that\u2019s been the driver behind the entire Government work programme this term. I speak specifically to replacing the Resource Management Act (RMA). That has been with the purpose to unlock economic growth, improve environmental outcomes for the benefit of all. We will have a new system passed into law before this Parliament rises, God willing. The likes of, if I can speak specifically to the Natural Environment Bill, that will very much provide a framework for protecting and enhancing the natural environment through limits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI know that the Minister responsible for RMA Reform can talk very succinctly about the next phase of work regarding national direction and how those limits will be designed and where they\u2019ll sit, but there will absolutely be clear limits for the environment to support better land and water management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u0022007d31c002a0d312d3622a50900a30b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022007d31c002a0d312d3622a50900a30b8\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform) (20:10)\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister for the Environment makes a very important point, which is one of the many failures of the Resource Management Act (RMA): the failure to set limits. Everyone\u2019s in favour of development within limits. The RMA has not allowed for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022986a6d57900974f2eecc90abd068b21d\u0022\u003EHon Priyanca Radhakrishnan\u003C/span\u003E: What about the Natural and Built Environment Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243b152f45f8253ef1304f5b45c9a634f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222172eb4081b924d42aa1b7b09ae11ccc\u0022\u003EHon Priyanca Radhakrishnan\u003C/span\u003E: What about the Natural and Built Environment Act and Spatial Planning Act? They set limits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223b967be636ea1924f5f5810c0e0122e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: What about them? They\u2019re not part of the law any more. We got rid of them three years ago because they were disastrous pieces of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022901cb0332fd7d20b1305fcde7ad57949\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve been rereading them\u2014so much better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226acab47b2818a05ff11d82b4eb0af1ec\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you\u2019ve got to get over it, because it was three years ago, Rachel. No disrespect. But Parliament\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221343db967c8bfcaafef385165c0a40de\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to remind, the question is these Estimates, not historical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d01753fe9ad02c91b2c03950614196b2\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Parliament dealt with those issues, and we\u2019ve worked a damn sight harder to try and get you guys on board than you tried with us, but anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022364202fdf3064e8f91f8875268f75b90\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Nonsense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a67a5575a3dd31a0298ac334f8bd6166\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, do you want to know what actually happened? David Parker called me into his office the night before the Natural and Built Environment Act was introduced and said, \u201CHere it is.\u201D, and expected me to read 1,000 pages overnight. So that has not happened in relation to the backwards and forwards between the Government and the Opposition in relation to RMA reform. We have not been able to reach agreement, but it\u2019s not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f7b36ab9f8cdbf50bf2dbefca50e89a\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: That is not what happened in the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c82679ed92987bdf32a7d2288c105cd2\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is what happened. I was there. You were never\u2014oh, sorry, you were part of his little hand-picked advisory group writing the legislation in the first place. I forgot about that. I was going to say that you weren\u2019t an MP, but you eventually became one. Anyway, I slightly digress. In fact, I wildly digress. One of the main benefits of the new system will be the setting of clear environmental limits across fresh water and across other environmental domains; we intend to do that. National direction will be part of that, which we will soon publish an illustrative draft of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI think members will appreciate seeing a bit more flesh on the bones as to how the system will work in confronting some of these trade-offs, because environmental management is at some level about confronting trade-offs. You can\u2019t do everything, you can\u2019t have it all, and you\u2019ve got to weigh up the costs and the benefits of things. Again, costs and benefits will be one of the key functions and features of the new system, because one of the things that I\u2019ve learnt\u2014I\u2019ve learnt many things in the last three years, but one of the things that\u2019s really been highlighted to me in Government is the concept of trade-offs. You can\u2019t do everything. You have to prioritise and make choices. Part of good decision-making is confronting those trade-offs early, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re attempting to do through the new planning system and environmental system, and creating a simpler process down the other end of the funnel from a consenting and permitting point of view, which is in everybody\u2019s interests and everybody actually agrees on that. So that\u2019s all I have to say, really.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0bb05ff14762b60212daeb9b92e4bee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0bb05ff14762b60212daeb9b92e4bee\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin) (20:13)\u003C/span\u003E: Now, this question is to the Minister for the Environment, and the Minister just spoke about limits before referring to the other Minister. Is she aware of clause 79 of the Natural Environment Bill, as reported back, that enables the Minister\u2014a different Minister\u2014to sidestep limits with very few criteria to constrain that decision? That\u2019s one of my questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EAnother one is: has she, as Minister, advocated for the inclusion for provisions that would improve the environment, such as green spaces, to be provided in that legislation? I\u2019ll leave those questions there, and then I\u2019m happy to move to the fast-track legislation. No? No answer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ce99ae1fb4a8072019038e9fbeee2d2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Keep going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298d6b87902cfd6873683716f35fed439\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Great. Thank you, then. We will move to fast-track legislation. We\u2019ve heard on \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EMorning Report\u003C/span\u003E from Minister Bishop that fast-track has been designed to enable out-of-sequence housing developments and he\u2019s not apologetic for that in the slightest. Has he been listening to his members of Parliament that come from Queenstown, that come from Selwyn, that come from where Mr Penk hails from, and all around the country, where they are making the point that they\u2019ve made the whole time that this version of the fast-track has been a thing, that those councils already have planned areas for infrastructure for 30 years of housing growth, and yet this Government is just letting other developers totally ignore that, go over the top, and cost ratepayers a whole lot of money?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u0022abcf6ad051f11089fc7d6282c9aa98c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abcf6ad051f11089fc7d6282c9aa98c5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform) (20:16)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there are a few things that are not accurate there. The first thing is Queenstown does not have 30 years of feasible housing capacity. In fact\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f78ea52348b40bb8a49f72b3f60852f9\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s what the mayor said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254e6ec1f6ac3c7a72650e832349aedd4\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, ha, ha! They wrote to me a few months ago telling me that, because the National Policy Statement on Urban Development that the last Government promulgated that we support was required by law to write to me when they don\u2019t meet their development capacity obligations. The mayor and the council chief executive had to write me a letter saying that they admit that they have not done proper spatial planning, they have not planned for enough growth, and all the rest of it. So they might be claiming now they don\u2019t, but I\u2019ve got it in writing, and the member can Official Information Act it and she can see for herself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not entirely their own fault. The planning system has been difficult to do proper spatial planning, which is why we\u2019re changing it. Unlocking land for housing has proven a burdensome and difficult problem, which is why we\u2019re changing the law to make that easier. Fast-track is a way around that. The member assumes that all growth that is in sequence or phased and planned growth is good, and anything that\u2019s out of sequence is bad but that\u2019s not necessarily the case. The whole problem with our planning system is that we sequence it and we plan it and we draw a ring around a city and say, \u201CYou can build here but you can\u2019t build here.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat anti-development approach is precisely why we have overinflated land markets with high prices for the land that you can build on, which flows through to housing prices. Now, there\u2019s extensive economic work around this. That\u2019s why the new planning system, as we announced today, will contain a goal around abundant opportunities for development and competitive urban land markets, and create a statutory obligation on councils to create competitive land markets, so that when people want to build and they can fund the infrastructure and recover the infrastructure costs of that infrastructure and deal with the environmental effects of that infrastructure, they can build it. That is the system we are building. It\u2019s not there yet, I accept that, but we\u2019re going to get there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn relation to the member\u2019s points around infrastructure, I accept her point, and that\u2019s why we are advancing an amendment to the Local Government Act via the Local Government (System Improvements) Amendment Bill in order to allow councils to retroactively\u2014or at least in response to green fields fast-track projects\u2014change their development contribution policies so that they can recover the growth costs because the issue, which I accept is an issue, is that the direct costs are locked in once an application is made, but, of course, the direct costs for out-of-sequence growth are deliberately low because no one anticipates the growth there. That\u2019s fair enough; you end up with under-recovery of the growth costs, and that\u2019s why the Government is changing the system around development levies, which we are a couple of years away from legislating, but we\u2019ll get there eventually. We\u2019ve done a whole lot of policy work around that. The changes to the Local Government Act are a sort of interim fix in the interregnum period between now and development levies. I think that will be\u2014well, I know for a fact it\u2019s been widely welcomed by councils and mayors and will allow for the recovery of network growth costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt is worth noting that people need to read the fine print on some of these fast-track conditions, because people just assume, \u201COh, it\u2019s been fast-tracked, therefore I can just go and build.\u201D They can\u2019t. You need to read the conditions. The conditions are often extremely extensive around highway upgrades, around waste water, around stormwater, around local roading upgrades. One of the ones that people are worked up about involves endless amounts of time and money being spent on wetland restoration, for example; before the project can happen, or at least to the extent the project sponsors want it to happen, it requires a whole range of ancillary infrastructure upgrades, so it depends on project by project.  The point is that the panels are imposing quite extensive infrastructure conditions on projects. I think the sort of misunderstanding that \u201COh well, it\u2019s just been fast tracked; you can go and build.\u201D is not actually the reality. Unless you can actually build and deal with the infrastructure conditions, you can\u2019t. That\u2019s part and parcel of the fast-track process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022 data-id=\u002284f737f34802852de07168015158eb30\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284f737f34802852de07168015158eb30\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin) (20:20)\u003C/span\u003E: There are a lot of \u201Cdepends\u201D in that answer. Does the Minister responsible for RMA Reform accept that there are areas with fully planned growth for over 30 years where fast-track applications can jump into separate areas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u00220b78e5ffc8364b9dc65e961e222cb2fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b78e5ffc8364b9dc65e961e222cb2fe\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform) (20:20)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, but I see that as a feature, not a fault of the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022 data-id=\u0022c00c9bc8b560e5489e2728b0cba467f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c00c9bc8b560e5489e2728b0cba467f5\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin) (20:20)\u003C/span\u003E: Will the development contribution problem, the foreseeable problem that he just explained, apply to fast-track approvals that have already been approved or are in the system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb39c4724dcef0fa9a861dc21b5a5e03\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb39c4724dcef0fa9a861dc21b5a5e03\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform) (20:20)\u003C/span\u003E: No, we\u2019re just working through the fine print of that now, but we\u2019ve made decisions and announced most of it. So anything that\u2019s been approved now\u2014no, it won\u2019t, because I hope the member would agree it would be pretty contrary to good legal practice to retrospectively impose different draft conditions on approved projects. That would be bad, so we\u2019re not doing it for those. It will apply to referral projects. The question is over the substantive applications, and so we\u2019re just working our way through the fine detail of that right now. But anything that\u2019s been approved\u2014no, it won\u2019t. Anything that is in the process of going towards the substantive application\u2014the answer is yes, and we\u2019re just working our way through that, and you\u2019ll be able to see the Amendment Paper when it\u2019s tabled in a couple of weeks, I think.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022 data-id=\u00223f3d4db6e1f17310a1b00a2604601734\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f3d4db6e1f17310a1b00a2604601734\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin) (20:21)\u003C/span\u003E: So it will be rate payers that are picking up the bill that would have otherwise been paid by development contributions for those fast-track approvals that are on land zoned for not being housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u002255ade41fa0753cc656fd3dd7a578611c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255ade41fa0753cc656fd3dd7a578611c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform) (20:22)\u003C/span\u003E: The short answer is that it depends. It depends on the project, and it depends on the conditions granted in relation to that project.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022 data-id=\u0022266dd88157a1bdda705c056ee30c33e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022266dd88157a1bdda705c056ee30c33e8\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin) (20:22)\u003C/span\u003E: Now, moving to back to Minister Hoggard\u2014and this is about farm environment plans. In a prior hearing, he mentioned that the industry did not want to audit their own farm environment plans, so the question is: why has the Government moved to allow the self-certification and self-auditing of those plans?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fa370c0016e740998a2816116c8e4365\u0022 data-id=\u0022cda6064b321a39f37042459eb47d3c4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fa370c0016e740998a2816116c8e4365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cda6064b321a39f37042459eb47d3c4e\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD (Associate Minister for the Environment) (20:22)\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ll find that most industry assurance schemes\u2014for example, the one I\u2019m involved in, the Fonterra Tiaki plan, uses third-party auditors. In effect, all of them already use third-party auditors. Fonterra may provide a certified farm plan for myself and Grant McCallum, but it does not audit them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022 data-id=\u00220d5e75d3fc62dc3c532aa4f87a424a72\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222c6463d70604436695b4f49ebe8951ef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d5e75d3fc62dc3c532aa4f87a424a72\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin) (20:23)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d remind the Minister for the Environment of my many unanswered questions, and I\u2019ll give her another one, and that is about the Agricultural Compounds and Veterinary Medicines Amendment Bill and the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Amendment Bill. Why were they sent to the Primary Production Committee and not the Environment Committee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fa370c0016e740998a2816116c8e4365\u0022 data-id=\u00224a57e8195c14c910315fadd26e02ce8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fa370c0016e740998a2816116c8e4365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a57e8195c14c910315fadd26e02ce8b\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD (Associate Minister for the Environment) (20:23)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ll cover one of those. It\u2019s quite simply because the main challenge that we were trying to address with both of those bills is the fact that it was slowing down the ability to get in new agricultural chemicals, compounds, and sprays. That was the challenge we were trying to fix, so it felt most sensible that it was the Primary Production Committee that was the one that received those bills and worked through the answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022 data-id=\u002279be82317a5c813b3ad72260a73fa41e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279be82317a5c813b3ad72260a73fa41e\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG (Minister for the Environment) (20:24)\u003C/span\u003E: Just further to that, as I understand it, it was also because the Environment Committee had an extraordinary heavy workload at the time with taking submissions on the resource management bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d18efb7ee14de5f4262962c78880c67f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan\u2014I\u2019ll just remind the committee that we have about 5\u00BD minutes left on this topic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc4feb0466fa997a392aa12c5dbd46e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc4feb0466fa997a392aa12c5dbd46e2\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour) (20:24)\u003C/span\u003E: OK, I will be very quick. Thank you, Madam Chair. My question is for the environment Minister, and it\u2019s around the environmental information system. Now, there\u2019s been a recent report by the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment (PCE) that shows that the information that we have is fragmented, there\u2019s under-investment, and there\u2019s a lack in system-wide leadership. I know that there\u2019s $13 million, from memory, in Budget 2026 around environmental information but that it\u2019s largely around policy and monitoring. I\u2019m keen to get a sense from the Minister as to what that budgetary allocation is for and whether it\u2019ll go some way towards addressing the issues that the PCE has raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ee4471ecdcf4eeda5bd6179167372f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022c39866777282f3b61ef782f77d7f46d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ee4471ecdcf4eeda5bd6179167372f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c39866777282f3b61ef782f77d7f46d0\u0022\u003EDAN ROSEWARNE (Labour) (20:25)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. My question is to Minister Bishop. Across Canterbury, I\u2019ve had a lot of conversations around flood management, and many residents are asking the question: \u201CIf we\u2019re building more houses, are we also increasing exposure to those natural hazard risks?\u201D In fact, Waikuku residents have also sent me a petition regarding the concern about upstream developments and how that might affect our stormwater management and the cumulative effects of that, particularly around the proposed Gressons Road development. I believe there\u2019s a letter in your inbox about that and that petition. Also I just want to actually say the voice of reason around the Pegasus golf course development, declining that fast-track application\u2014that\u2019s fantastic, the voice of reason, and the sustained pressure by the community, so I just want to shout out to the Pegasus Residents\u2019 Group. But back to the crux of my question, Minister, for the benefit of Waikuku residents, any views that you could provide on greater transparency regarding flood modelling and technical assessments would be much appreciated. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u002244f1e88c30bd64cd62583783c4e9e326\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244f1e88c30bd64cd62583783c4e9e326\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform) (20:26)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for his question. I don\u2019t want to get into specific projects, because that way lies danger as a decision maker on it, or as the decision maker on some projects. What I will say in relation to natural hazard risk and flood modelling is that those are clearly environmental effects and things that need to be considered through assessment of projects and are rightly matters\u2014as they are in the Resource Management Act (RMA)\u2014for expert panels under fast track and as they are through council consenting applications.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESpeaking again at a general level, the Government\u2019s working pretty hard to do better with natural hazards. For example, we are developing a national flood map. Version one of that is not going to be perfect. In fact, it will be substandard in my view. But for the first time, we will have a national federated data-system of where the flood risks are in the country and the extent of them. It baffles me, for example, that we have all this data between the insurance companies, the Crown research institutes, and councils. It\u2019s all disaggregated in different places, so we\u2019re going to bring it all together into one place. Over time\u2014and again, the RMA reforms are an important part of this\u2014over time, we\u2019ll be able to bring together a second version, a much more sophisticated and comprehensive version of the flood map, which will factor into planning decisions made in the new system. So spatial planning, and land use planning, and environmental management plans. And it will factor into where and what you can build, for example. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt is not correct that just because something is a flood risk, that you can\u2019t build. I mean, there are flood risks all over this country. The key is the severity of the risk and the possible mitigations against that. That is context specific, right? That is fact specific. Some areas should just be no-go areas, you shouldn\u2019t build here, it\u2019s too dangerous. Probably, in the past, we\u2019ve been far too liberal at allowing building in places where we shouldn\u2019t be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242688b5c0c9230ff9fefdc3d276f5cb2\u0022\u003EHon Member: \u003C/span\u003EHear, hear!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218c9d0647404e76fce7250034952413d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: In fact, there are many people in Auckland who would say that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0adbfba9bc5e961b297695e2b74e43b\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Grigg\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, Christchurch\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8022518b2b39b9bcfa982ea2f0f3b58\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly, there\u2019s many places. But there are also places where with a bit of targeted investment you can, and we should be upfront and open about that. The key is data\u2014can I just stress that? It\u2019s impossible to make good decisions in this space, for councils or developers or landowners themselves or homeowners. It\u2019s impossible to make good decisions without having good data, and the problem we\u2019ve lacked is the data. Because we haven\u2019t had the data, we haven\u2019t been able to make good evidence-based policy. We\u2019re changing that, I fully accept we\u2019re not there yet. I would hope that the Opposition, and all political parties, could come on the journey, because, frankly, successive Governments have kicked it into the too-hard basket. We\u2019ve made a good start, but there\u2019s a long way to go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf6bedf4543ec14ba26967279f988004\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0b9e96e57bd64913c905dc819129207\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve actually got about 20 seconds left, and Minister Grigg has indicated she wants to take a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022 data-id=\u00223d1805b480b62331d6961bfb90667c8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022446ec2690c724b8189770c259d2e676a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d1805b480b62331d6961bfb90667c8a\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG (Minister for the Environment) (20:29)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. It was just to answer the question from PriyancaRadhakrishnan, but Chris Bishop did answer it very fulsomely. But just to your point about the reports made by the PCE. Yes, we accept that there is much more to do, but, for the first time, a Government is actually responding to his urgency regarding the need to fund and capture data, which Chris Bishop has just been talking to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022 data-id=\u0022bba637927eb2e4c4e825af37dad37d57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bba637927eb2e4c4e825af37dad37d57\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour) (20:30)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair, I seek leave of the committee for a short time more to ask just one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022956fdc80dea73cffcdd6623a536e606a\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f58759c54d205e32d7349346e92ed67\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: He did say, \u201COK.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022157df4725fe4c053c5483e5ace7f43cf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m told you don\u2019t need to seek leave. If everyone\u2019s happy, you can ask a question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b13aa8ffbae34ee4972a7ab313f6b300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022225b69fd78329e6e3501956bdff1ade2\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: The question is directed to the Minister responsible for RMA Reform, in relation to his flood map work, which I agree is important and needs to be done. There\u2019s a very real risk that, when those first flood maps come out, there will be a significant impact on people\u2019s property values. I just want to understand\u2014because people will be alarmed by it without sufficient planning under way. I was just wondering what thinking you\u2019ve done around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u0022304f13127c4625218859eb5ba1801cd7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022304f13127c4625218859eb5ba1801cd7\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform) (20:30)\u003C/span\u003E: The short answer is that I don\u2019t think that will be the case\u2014although I could always be wrong\u2014because the first flood map brings together data that\u2019s already there. It\u2019s already available in public; it\u2019s just bringing it into one place. Version No. 2, I accept, we should do some thinking about as a country and as a polity, but version No. 1 is pre-existing information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe next step after that is the National Policy Statement for Natural Hazards, which the last Government did some work on and which we picked up and have done in the last two years. That is about to flow through into the national policy direction in the new planning system. Putting it succinctly, the National Policy Statement for Natural Hazards says that councils have to take a risk-based, proportionate approach to land-use plans in light of natural hazard risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EHaving got the data into one place, we can then make good evidence-based decisions, but it sort of goes to the point that I\u2019ve made a couple of times, which is that we\u2019re not there yet; there\u2019s a long way to go on this. I think version No. 1 will be OK\u2014although I stand to be corrected. Version No. 2 is when things are going to get crunchy, and we\u2019re going to have to have some tough conversations as a country about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fd8a9ff48229adcb5b12b00b654282f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, this Minister\u2019s time in the chair has come to an end, and we now have the Minister of Transport. The Minister is available to speak to that portfolio from 8.30 p.m. until 9.30 p.m. I\u2019ll give the first call to Andy Foster, the chairperson of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c356453dbe656d938cea2680a5dae912\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u2014Estimates Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u002293f1fb718e2ff36537145e42256f1528\u0022\u003ETransport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248ce26e54d83406399b875df20400dec\u0022 data-id=\u00225dbed91501e1cb4c3372cb95891fda99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248ce26e54d83406399b875df20400dec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225dbed91501e1cb4c3372cb95891fda99\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (Chairperson of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee) (20:32)\u003C/span\u003E: Shall I wait until the Minister in the chair has switched over?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f6a3b4db6c9d91ade288cb87f19ead2\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, yeah\u2014come on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fcc96040008ea9b55c3b24d10c7b3e8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We won\u2019t be long. We really do technically need to have a Minister in the chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248ce26e54d83406399b875df20400dec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237b39e2bfb7ad577dca952546241cd86\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m pleased to speak on behalf of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee and also on behalf of New Zealand First. We had really good sessions with the relevant Ministers\u2014the Minister of Transport, the Associate Minister of Transport, and the Minister for Rail\u2014and also with agencies. I can see the Ministry of Transport and the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) have joined us. Also, on the ferries issue, with Ferry Holdings and KiwiRail\u2014it was a lot of really, really good information that we got and some good, really meaty issues that we pursued. One of the things that becomes patently obvious, not just in transport but across the country, is that we don\u2019t have enough money for everything we want to do. Therefore, we\u2019ve got to cut our cloth to meet the resources which are available and use what we have got as best we possibly can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOne of the things that we did traverse in quite some length was the issue of asset management. It\u2019s about looking after the assets we\u2019ve got, something that has been stressed to us time and time again as we\u2019ve met particularly with the Infrastructure Commission. I\u2019m delighted that the conversation we had with the Minister in the chair when he was in front of us, as a select committee, was the idea of legislating for good asset management, so that we\u2019re actually looking after the assets we\u2019ve got and we\u2019re not letting them depreciate. That\u2019s not just transport, it\u2019s not just water; it\u2019s hospitals, it\u2019s schools\u2014it\u2019s right across the board that we need to look after those assets better. The direction to suggest that we are going to be looking to legislate next year to require that of organisations is a really good one. I think it will be a game changer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOne of the things that did challenge that, and we did have a conversation about this with the Minister, was the place of the Government policy statement. The Government policy statement on transport has been, essentially, a diktat of the Minister over time\u2014if the Minister says, \u201CI\u2019m going to allocate this much to this pot, and this much to this pot, and this much to this pot.\u201D It is how that links with asset management. If the Minister says, \u201CI want to go and build a whole lot of new roads\u201D\u2014or a whole lot of new railways, or whatever it might be\u2014and there\u2019s not enough money left to look after the assets that are there, that would seem to conflict directly with that. That was an issue I\u2019d certainly like the Minister to respond to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe had a bit of a discussion around the roads of national significance and how they were fundable. It has been very clear to the select committee for some time that we can\u2019t fund all of those roads of national significance in a short period of time. They might be drawn out over a much longer period of time. It\u2019s a question, then, of how those get prioritised. Again, it would be good for the committee, I think, if the Minister was to talk through a little bit about how that might be advanced. I note that the roads of national significance which are on the table at the moment do not include a second harbour crossing in Auckland. Again, how that gets funded will be of a great deal of interest, I\u2019m sure, both to the public and to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe had a really fascinating discussion talking about the Auckland Harbour Bridge, a really fascinating discussion about the maintenance of that bridge. I can see the chief executive smiling at that. It was really, really interesting\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022141563edcf907e5881e20885f3438ec6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t bring the officials into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248ce26e54d83406399b875df20400dec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0dcb7dde18ddb6dc5595e31250d1313\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, it was only said\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281592bff511ad88bb9b2a325c93a5176\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I know you\u2019re being nice, but please don\u2019t bring the officials into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248ce26e54d83406399b875df20400dec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251146f46b16d35f49870474d41aad04d\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER\u003C/span\u003E: It was a really, really interesting conversation that we had around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOn the maintenance side, we really stressed, also, that it\u2019s not just the maintenance of State highways. NZTA is the part-funder\u2014at least 50 percent funder\u2014of every local road in the country, and sometimes more than 50 percent. The funding assistance rates are sometimes as high as 70\u2014or, in emergency situations, even higher than that. What we were stressing as a select committee\u2014and again, I\u2019d appreciate the Minister\u2019s feedback on this\u2014is the importance of maintaining not only the State\u2019s assets but also the assets owned by local government, which are partly funded by the State through the petrol taxes. Of course, those petrol taxes and road user charges are derived from people who drive on State highways and on local roads equally, which is why they\u2019re funded in the way that they are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe noted that there is a significant bow wave of ageing bridges, and it\u2019s been really interesting. I commend the South Island for its approach now. They\u2019ve been very, very vocal about this. They\u2019ve said, \u201CHey, here is how we can grow our economy.\u201D\u2014they\u2019re doing better than the North anyway\u2014\u201CThat\u2019s really important.\u201D I see the Minister for the Mainland is backing me up on that. One of the things they have stressed is the importance of maintaining the assets they\u2019ve got, and that includes the bow wave of bridges and also the ability to be able to maintain seal, etc., roads. Again, some feedback on that will be really appreciated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIf I might, just looking at the time that\u2019s available, just to finish off, we also spent a bit of time on the ferries front and noted the excellent progress that was being made with the replacement ferries, at a much lower cost than was the case under iReX. We also noted that rail is gaining market share. The Minister said that the rail freight market share is up 7\u00A0percent, compared to 2 percent for road. We also had some interesting and very useful discussions around potential new rail lines\u2014obviously, the one to Marsden Point being talked about, but also through Auckland, the Fourth Main, and Avondale to Southdown. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere were a lot of really meaty issues that the committee covered. I\u2019d really appreciate the Minister\u2019s feedback on some of those issues which I\u2019ve raised. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002201f738f244724e5b8da066dba7a6a526\u0022 data-id=\u002219d7554741b1e87821c4fda9ab08ecf6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002201f738f244724e5b8da066dba7a6a526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219d7554741b1e87821c4fda9ab08ecf6\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour) (20:38)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair, and I want to acknowledge the Minister of Transport for his engagement through the Estimates process and also the chair, Andy Foster, who has just resumed his seat, for outlining the work of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee. I have a few questions. When we look at the Estimates as a whole, you can see some pretty clear things, so my questions are going to centre on, essentially: where\u2019s the money, where\u2019s the plan, and who\u2019s ultimately going to pay? I know I have some colleagues who will want to ask some other questions about specific transport projects in their areas. Then I have some other questions, not quite on that theme, to finish off with. So I will make my start.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to start with the fundamental question of how the Government intends to pay for its transport programme. The chair of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee has touched on a couple of the impending issues that are before us, not just as a Parliament or as a select committee but as a country. The Estimates identify that the National Land Transport Fund is, essentially, a Budget risk because it doesn\u2019t have sufficient funding beyond 2027-28 to cover what are its ongoing activities and debt. This year alone, the National Land Transport Programme relies on almost $2.3 billion worth of borrowing. At the same time, the Government has become much more reliant on direct Crown funding, and I want to ask a couple of questions about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Minister himself has acknowledged that the Crown funding has gone from about 3 percent of the programme in 2018-21 to 39 percent in the current programme. Now, of course, there is some further uncertainty around the revenue that was meant to come from motorists\u2014or \u201Cpeople\u201D, as we also call them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Government\u2019s policy has been for petrol excise to rise 22 cents over the next three years, but the Minister of Transport has essentially said on a couple of occasions that the increase to the fuel tax looks like a \u201Cnon-starter\u201D, I think was the quote. But, of course, we\u2019ve also had the Prime Minister describe it as cancelled, frozen, and delayed. Regardless, there\u2019s some uncertainty, and there\u2019s certainly no clarity around that. We don\u2019t know if the Government is going to increase the petrol tax by 22 cents per litre, but what we do know is that the Government has a transport fund that it acknowledges is underfunded. It\u2019s borrowing billions of dollars to sustain it, and one of the planned sources of additional revenue is now in doubt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBut what\u2019s missing from this Estimates is the explanation of how that gap is going to be filled. So my question to the Minister is: can the Minister, as a starter for 10, tell the committee what the size is of that projected National Land Transport Fund short fund beyond 2027-28? And if the 1 January 2027 fuel excise and road-user charge increases do not proceed\u2014and I\u2019m not necessarily asking for a yes or no confirmation here tonight; but if they don\u2019t proceed, I\u2019m assuming that a certain amount of thought would have already gone into what revenue would be foregone in 2027-28 and 2028-29. What kind of activity classes does the Minister sort of foresee or assume is going to absorb that loss?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc662651a5ad30979379592d24ad8f04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc662651a5ad30979379592d24ad8f04\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (20:41)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you to the member for her questions. They\u2019re good questions, and they deal with some tricky issues that the Government\u2019s confronting and which future Governments will have to confront no matter the political stripes of who is in Government. I also thank the chair of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee for his very sage comments, and I just, in passing, appreciate your engagement, Mr Foster, as part of a very hard-working committee on a range of different issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s good to see a level of maturity around these challenges in the Chamber tonight, because we do need to be up front around the fact that we do have a transport funding challenge, there\u2019s no doubt about that, and future Governments are going to have to deal with it. No one wants to put up fuel tax. I get it. The last Government didn\u2019t want to put it up. In fact, they cut it for a while and then, eventually, life had to go back to normality at some point. No one wants to put it up, but in real terms, so in other words, after inflation, it\u2019s gone down by 20 percent since 2020\u201421 percent, I think it is, or it might be 22 percent\u2014because no one\u2019s put it up since 2020.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPrior to that, we had a moderate escalation in fuel taxes generally before that. Since then, we haven\u2019t had it. COVID is the reason for that, and cost of living challenges. Now, they\u2019re baked into the system. I get that one wants to put up fuel tax\u2014we don\u2019t want to do it either\u2014but at some point, you\u2019re just delaying the pain and you\u2019re delaying the inevitable. In answer to the member\u2019s question, we\u2019ve not made a call yet on the tax rises scheduled for 1 January 2027. We see it as unlikely, but we haven\u2019t made a decision yet, and so, when we do, we will let you know. In relation to the size of the fiscal challenge in relation to that, the short answer is it depends, because it depends on how much you defer them or cancel or push them out. The short answer is it depends. There is a fiscal trade-off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETo return to one of the central theses of the discussion tonight in the Ministry for the Environment hearing, or the Ministry for Cities, Environment, Regions and Transport hearing as well, these things have trade-offs and the reality is that our system, as the member rightly notices, is meant to be user-pays\u2014it isn\u2019t anymore. Back in 2017, it was broadly user-pays. Now, 40 percent of transport spending is from the Crown, and that comes with trade-offs\u2014schools, hospitals, defence force, justice, corrections, police, and all the rest of it that we have to fund. There are trade-offs and the Government is working hard on broadening the range of funding tools because, frankly, a blunt use of just fuel tax as the proxy for road usage is not necessarily the right way to go about it. It\u2019s imperfect, but there are other things you can do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETolling is one thing we\u2019re looking at. We had a discussion down the line tonight at Buddle Findlay about greater use of tolling, which I think, broadly, people support, but have just got to bear in mind that it\u2019s no silver bullet. It barely touches the sides of some projects. It\u2019s a useful supplement, but it\u2019s not a silver bullet. We talked about infrastructure funding and financing levies. Parliament\u2019s just unanimously passed legislation to broaden the use of those in relation to transport projects and State highway projects. That will be a useful supplement, and there\u2019s a range of other things we could look at as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re keen for broadening the revenue base and we\u2019re keen to use different tools in order to make sure we can get projects away, but we can\u2019t get away from the central conundrum of transport policy, which is: everyone wants stuff for which there is not enough money. I am sure that Tracey McClellan, and I\u2019m sure that Dan Rosewarne, and I\u2019m sure that Shanan Halbert will have transport projects they\u2019re keen on, and I can tell you for free, because, no disrespect to you guys, but I know these colleagues better. I can tell you that my associate the Hon James Meager has got a list, Miles Anderson\u2019s got a list, Dana Kirkpatrick\u2019s got a list, Cameron Luxton\u2019s got a list\u2014everyone\u2019s got a list, right. Everyone\u2019s got a list of stuff, and sometimes I feel like Scrooge McDuck having to say no to everybody. Although, half the time it\u2019s not my decision because it\u2019s the transport agency\u2019s, so I just make them give the bad news. But no, I\u2019m being slightly facetious. But there\u2019s not enough money. We all know that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EJust in the final 30 seconds to finish this point, you can kind of bemoan all that or you can do something about it. We\u2019re broadening the revenue; we\u2019ve got a greater focus on asset management and driving better value for money and optimising what we\u2019ve already got; and we\u2019re also really keen to get the costs down, because you can do more with less if you bring the costs of these projects down, and I think everyone\u2019s on board with that. Doing so is not quite as easy as it sounds, but we\u2019re all up for that. We\u2019ve got a range of work under way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002201f738f244724e5b8da066dba7a6a526\u0022 data-id=\u00226be81266c97e9ca262d63ac1bf8df778\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002201f738f244724e5b8da066dba7a6a526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226be81266c97e9ca262d63ac1bf8df778\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour) (20:46)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ve probably got a quick follow-up, but I\u2019m going to save that to the end of this next section because I\u2019m going to move on. The second issue is the uncertainty the Government has essentially created for councils and regional transport committees who are, and I\u2019m sure the Minister of Transport is well aware, now working on their regional land transport plans for the next funding period. But that one statutory document that is supposed to tell them what the Government\u2019s priorities are and what the funding ranges are\u2014the Government\u2019s policy statement, the GPS\u2014isn\u2019t going to be released now until after the election. Some commentary exists about that, but I want to ask the Minister tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EInstead, the councils have been given an interim ministerial statement, and, obviously, that\u2019s not a GPS\u2014the clue is in the name. It doesn\u2019t provide the same statutory process, and it certainly doesn\u2019t provide those same funding ranges or certainty. I think it\u2019s fair to say we are three years into this Government, councils have been asked to plan the next transport programme without that Government transport strategy, without the settled funding ranges, and without knowing what will actually be affordable. Can the Minister tell us tonight, or tell the committee, what document regional councils\u2014essentially, what are they supposed to be basing these 2027-30 regional land transport plans on, and what legal status has this interim statement under the Land Transport Management Act? What is the legal status of that under the Act? And while I\u2019ve got the Minister\u2019s ear, can we also kind of have a look at what the revised timetable for the 2027-30 National Land Transport Programme would be? Actually, I suppose, simple questions like: can the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) actually adopt a programme without the new GPS being in force? That\u2019s a start. I\u2019ve got a couple more questions along those lines, but I think that\u2019s enough for the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u00224632a97314ed046b854f77e4c935d8d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224632a97314ed046b854f77e4c935d8d8\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (20:49)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, good questions. The current Government policy statement (GPS) period runs from the 1 July, 2024 through to 30 June, 2027 next year, so we\u2019re actually over halfway through, but it\u2019s still quite a long time to go, right. We\u2019ve got through to end of June next year. The answer is yes, and New Zealand Transport Authority\u2019s planned and budgeted for all of those things. So, yes, they can expend money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EJust working backwards a bit, there\u2019s no legal status of this statement. Formally, we have to consult on a GPS in advance of 1 July, 2027, and the intention is to do that. The real question is: when do you do that? We could have gone out and done it now, but there are a couple of challenges with that\u2014in fact, multiple challenges. Number one: you\u2019ve got the ongoing uncertainty with the fuel situation, so that\u2019s a challenge and makes it difficult to plan. I accept that that may still not be quite as good next year, but we are where we are. Number two: you\u2019ve got the election in the middle of all of that, and the election campaign\u2014it\u2019s just a complication, from a sequencing point of view, and there\u2019s nothing you can do about that; it is what it is. The third thing is that we\u2019ve just started this Infrastructure Commission deep dive into transport funding costs, and I\u2019m keen to get the lessons of that from quarter one next, because we\u2019re given until quarter one next year to do it. So I\u2019m keen to get the lessons of that so that we can adopt some of those recommendations when it comes to the Government policy statement (GPS). Finally, there is also the land transport reform work that we\u2019re starting to get under way now, and I want some of the early insights into that work to help inform the GPS next year as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESo, to be honest, we kind of weighed it up. It is not an easy decision, but we think it\u2019s the right decision. In the meantime, I wanted to give a clear steer to the regional land transport committees and councils around what they should be thinking about for the next GPS. It hasn\u2019t got a huge amount of attention, but it\u2019s actually worth people reading it, because the system is under stress, as we\u2019ve just been discussing. The paper notes that, and the next GPS will focus on value for money and cost discipline; making better use of the existing network; committing to service and system capacity increases before new infrastructure; maintenance, operations, and renewals; stronger asset management and better information on asset condition; resilience, which I know many members of the House regard as a significant issue, particularly in parts of regional and rural New Zealand, but not just there; transit-oriented development, which has a specific mention in the new draft GPS; supporting housing growth through alignment with spatial plans and concentrating development around transit nodes, key corridors, and strategic connection, and I think I\u2019d be right in saying that\u2019s never appeared in a GPS ever before, but it\u2019s part of this Government\u2019s drive to align land-use plan, through the new planning system, with transport plans made through the Land Transport Management Act and via the New Zealand Transport Agency; and then, of course, safety, which continues to be important as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESo there\u2019s quite a bit in this document. We\u2019ve sent it out to councils, I think\u2014have we sent it out? People are looking at me quizzically\u2014hopefully, we have. We will have sent it out to councils so people are aware of it; it was only last week and there was quite a bit happening last week, as we all know. So that\u2019s gone out. It doesn\u2019t have any legal status but it will guide the next draft GPS. If we are fortunate enough to be re-elected, then the intention will be to get on with that soon after the election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4e64f56e5ef486e47a20147c6d9aa4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4e64f56e5ef486e47a20147c6d9aa4e\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai) (20:53)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair, and thanks to the Minister for his comments. I had some really specific questions about the guidance that\u2019s gone out\u2014I mean, to the extent that he is able to comment on what might be possible under the next Government policy statement (GPS). Under the most recent GPS, there was a lot of constraint on activity classes and what they could be used for, and there was an explicit banning of a multimodal approach being funded from the State highways activity class or the local roads activity class and maintenance and renewals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EAs part of the getting better value for money and getting outcomes we want in urban centres, does he think it will be possible for funding for maintenance and renewals of local roads to go towards improvements for pedestrian and cycle access or safety? That is one way that we can make better use of our existing infrastructure, by enabling more people to use a given amount of road width, and doing it as part of everyday maintenance and renewals is a lot more cost-effective for councils.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u002234c509ff15bef362421ad0b9d7eb3e5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234c509ff15bef362421ad0b9d7eb3e5f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (20:54)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not going to get ahead of the development of the Government policy statement. Cabinet\u2019s yet to make decisions on that; you\u2019ll have to wait until, hopefully, next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3298ae2016440c2d935f9542ca6ca7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3298ae2016440c2d935f9542ca6ca7a\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai) (20:54)\u003C/span\u003E: OK, fair enough. But, like, the point about enabling a better and more flexible use of funding to deliver on transport outcomes\u2014is that something that councils could be thinking about now, or not really?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9a78ebe0aaf89986832da65c39e5a74\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9a78ebe0aaf89986832da65c39e5a74\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (20:55)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d just refer the member to the statement. There\u2019s quite a lot in that, to be honest. It\u2019s quite detailed and it\u2019s not just high-level motherhood and apple pie; there\u2019s quite a lot of stuff in there for councils to think about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe other point I\u2019d make\u2014and I don\u2019t want to speak for too long, because I\u2019d use up all the other Ministers\u2019 time for the other portfolios\u2014I mean, let\u2019s be honest about it: the Government policy statement system settings are suboptimal. We provide these activity classes, there are funding ranges, and there\u2019s a whole suite of problems with that, and that\u2019s partly why we\u2019re doing the land transport reform work. We\u2019re at the start of that process, to have a look at whether there\u2019s a better way. That is a modern artefact in the sense that it was only created in 2008 onwards, actually\u2014it was only 18 years or so ago, so things can change\u2014it\u2019s not the way transport funding used to work before that; it was a completely different system and now is probably not the time to get into that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe just want to have a good look at that system, because I think everybody would be a bit frustrated\u2014councils, too, by the way; I mean, the fact is that the three-year cycle is part of the problem, right? Theoretically, they\u2019re 10 years, but they\u2019re actually not: people focus on the three-year window. I meet councils up and down the country every day, and the member will have met them when she was Associate Minister as well. And they say, \u201COh, you know, we can\u2019t plan because we keep being told it\u2019s the 2027-30 period or the three years after that, but we don\u2019t know if there\u2019s any certainty of the funding, so do we do the work now or not?\u201D It\u2019s a nightmare of a situation, and people spend their lives creating regional land transport plans, which would require extensive consultation. By the time we\u2019ve actually finalised the land transport plan and the New Zealand Transport Agency\u2019s come in with the co-funding, we\u2019ve got to start again on the next one. It\u2019s no wonder people get demented by this stuff; I mean, I get driven demented by it and I\u2019m a Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAnyway, there\u2019s got to be a better way, is the short point\u2014slap a hashtag on it. I think we can do it, and I look forward to the member\u2019s support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022 data-id=\u00228b1af2874768136e5c652fddbc217122\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b1af2874768136e5c652fddbc217122\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai) (20:57)\u003C/span\u003E: I wanted to come to the topic of the appropriation that was not explicit in how much it was to assist public transport operators with higher diesel costs, and I just wanted to know if at some point it will be reported to Parliament how much has been allocated and to which public transport authorities, and what is the process for public transport authorities to apply for this funding. We\u2019ve heard from different operators that they\u2019ve had much, much higher costs, like just the ferries in Wellington, for example\u2014you know, there\u2019s an electric ferry, there\u2019s also diesel ferries, and they were copping higher costs of, like, a million dollars a month earlier in the year, and obviously they don\u2019t want to have to put up fares, because that will reduce patronage\u2014it\u2019s the same with the regional council. So I was just wondering what the process is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea892ea530ec82f4b3c040cfb2a612b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea892ea530ec82f4b3c040cfb2a612b2\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (20:58)\u003C/span\u003E: If the member puts these questions to me in written questions, we can probably come back to it. These are operational matters for the transport agency. The amount is commercially sensitive to allow for negotiations. If there is money used, then it will eventually be reported to Parliament, obviously, in due course. But the member will have to put the questions down in writing, to the exact specifics. The point is, there\u2019s money there for targeted support for public transport authorities on the way through during the fuel situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002201f738f244724e5b8da066dba7a6a526\u0022 data-id=\u0022c56f665fe39341bffdf5b3f104ae8334\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002201f738f244724e5b8da066dba7a6a526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c56f665fe39341bffdf5b3f104ae8334\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour) (20:58)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. The Minister told us that everybody wants some funding for transport projects. There is an abundance of different transport projects, but I do want to turn our attention now to the roads of national significance. I think that\u2019s where the gap between what the Government promised and what can actually be delivered becomes very clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe have a programme estimated at around $56 billion. I think the Minister himself characterised this as a \u201Cfinger in the wind\u201D figure. Parliament is now being asked to appropriate a substantial sum of money, yet the New Zealand Transport Agency has, to date, been unable to provide the committee with a project by project forecast on what will actually be spent this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe chair of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee alluded to the fact that both the roads of national significance and the roads of regional significance were sort of bundled together, and I have a couple of questions about that. At the same time projects are being pushed further and further into the future, and we do know that money, in the meantime, will be spent on planning. It will be spent on buying property for roads that may or may not even begin construction for several years. So can the Minister tell the committee how much of the $1.3 billion\u2014or $1.298 billion\u2014for major Crown investment projects is allocated to roads of national significance and how much is actually allocated to roads of regional significance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt would be good if there was some sort of breakdown of that. Further to that, can the Minister tell us how much has already been spent on acquiring property for projects that are now in phase 3 of that pipeline. I don\u2019t need to remind the Minister that there was a recent announcement where some of those projects were bumped down. But I\u2019m assuming that money has already been spent. So how much has been spent for those projects that are now in phase 3, and what happens to the property if those projects don\u2019t end up proceeding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f08ccaaf2d98660738533affa601a427\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f08ccaaf2d98660738533affa601a427\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (21:01)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Well, there\u2019s quite a bit there. The major transport projects pipeline, which the Government published\u2014well, the New Zealand Transport Authority (NZTA) published it\u2014a couple of months ago is an attempt to actually spell out for the public and the sector what the sequence in the pipeline is, and that\u2019s what\u2019s actually been widely welcomed by the transport sector and the infrastructure sector, because it gives a sense of when things will happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not locked down to X year or X month or anything like that, but it\u2019s a sequence, and we\u2019ve always viewed the major transport projects pipeline as not just about roads of national significance\u2014by the way, there\u2019s the North West Rapid Transit project in there, there\u2019s the Eastern Busway and other projects, very important projects\u2014as a sequence and I think people kind of know intuitively that you can\u2019t build 17 roads all at the same time. Not only could you not do it, you couldn\u2019t fund it and you\u2019d destroy the market and inflation would go through the roof and all the rest of it. There has to be a sequence, and so that is the sequence, and the honest truth is that some projects are more ready to go than others and are needed earlier than others, for example, Mill Road\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290a05c0f561045159bf3351d524a65ac\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac48964ac84d690b793ccb9203954358\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Waikato Expressway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fa034303f54c7e5d00bc419e1800b43\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the extension of the Waikato Expressway is a road that was fast-tracked by the previous Government. People say it was fast-tracked; it was actually David Parker\u2019s fast track\u2014people forget about that. So it was fast-tracked by the previous Government for the consent\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d669e268376ae2659971cf06ce2be0bb\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Ours was good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c6f71eef69554ecaf4b7e7f8f7eeb1d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: OK, well, leaving that aside, then there was no money, and now we\u2019ve funded it. So that\u2019s the reality of it, and we\u2019re going to get on with that and in fact the NZTA is in procurement for that now, for the offline and the online sections. So it\u2019s always been a sequence. It\u2019s always been a coherent pipeline and some projects are further away than others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn relation to the member\u2019s point, or question, I suppose, around property acquisition and property liability, the NZTA owns property all over the place. They own rental properties in Mount Victoria that they\u2019ve owned since the 1970s, and that\u2019s because of the on-again, off-again second Mount Victoria tunnel. The NZTA is a landlord all over the place through rental properties and other things. So the NZTA sits on the land and if they don\u2019t need it, they dispose of it. Otherwise, they own the property and there\u2019s a revenue stream often from those properties, sometimes there isn\u2019t, and then there is obviously a property liability incurred with designations that occur as well and other sort of legal processes around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESo what we\u2019re doing, or what NZTA is doing, I should say, is just getting on with the job of progressing projects so as funding becomes available they are ready for construction. Some projects are further up the kind of curve of construction readiness than others, and that\u2019s publicly available for everybody. So rather than have this kind of show and tell routine and everyone ask all these questions and that sort of stuff, it\u2019s all publicly available. We\u2019re not trying to hide anything here. It\u2019s all publicly available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002201f738f244724e5b8da066dba7a6a526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efdb7af1cf0538b6879b09c10c66316f\u0022\u003EDr Tracey McLellan\u003C/span\u003E: Is this process such a nuisance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ecbdd55f26b0e7508cf05a5b00c929b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s publicly available and my point is that that\u2019s a contradistinction from the past, when communities would get very excited about projects that they thought were going to happen and it turns out they weren\u2019t because they\u2019d been misled, frankly, often by politicians, to believe that things would start immediately when they were never going to start. Both sides of politics have been guilty of that in the past.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIn relation to the major Crown investment programme, otherwise known as the New Zealand Upgrade Programme, that is actually, without being too political about it, an example of over-promising, because, as some members of the House know, that was an attempt to basically make announcements about projects that were nowhere near ready for funding. Hence why the project cost blew out massively, Otaki to north Levin being a classic. It was meant to be $817 million, from memory, and it\u2019s now going to come out at the thick end $2 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225db31ce570508c75449cb0d78e32af24\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: It was actually $400 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad109ccde651891077963e3c7a930315\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: The figure I remember\u2014the figure when the announcement was made by Grant Robertson and Jacinda Ardern back in March 2020, I think; February it might have been\u2014is $817 million. I thought that that was a cheap four-lane road from Otaki to north Levin, and lo and behold, it\u2019s not based on anything other than a literally back of the envelope figure. People just estimated the costs, and then people thought the road would start. That was announced in 2020 and here we are in 2026 and it\u2019s finally getting under way, which is great. We support the road but we\u2019ve got to get out of this habit of just making big spending commitments and big policy promises and pretending that things will just happen without doing the work. So we\u2019re trying to stop all that stuff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002201f738f244724e5b8da066dba7a6a526\u0022 data-id=\u002264d0f4f560874d84469e40cc5d51efee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002201f738f244724e5b8da066dba7a6a526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264d0f4f560874d84469e40cc5d51efee\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour) (21:06)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank you, Minister, although I certainly do remember there being quite some fans here from the Minister and the Minister\u2019s party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EAnyhow, the New Zealand Transport Authority (NZTA) told us through this process, and it\u2019s mentioned in the report, that there is currently no definition of high value and high risk. But the Minister has said that Cabinet has oversight, and sufficient oversight, of high-risk and high-value projects. It might seem like a small question but it\u2019s something that leaked out, and is of particular interest to me\u2014if NZTA are unable to define that or have no clarity about what that definition is and yet the Minister has provided us with a sort of certainty that that\u2019s been taken care of at a Cabinet level, I\u2019m just wondering if the Minister can elucidate on that somewhat. If I could just go back a step, because I didn\u2019t get a chance to ask after the general policy statement (GPS) question, the Minister talked us through the delay in the GPS and the rationale for that, I accept that. But while I have him can he also confirm whether the next GPS will direct 60 percent of that investment towards maintenance and renewals as has absolutely been suggested should happen in that national infrastructure plan, and that will just round off that section nicely for me. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u002227a39b8b0fcb3fc667f17e5f01e2e67d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227a39b8b0fcb3fc667f17e5f01e2e67d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (21:07)\u003C/span\u003E: The short answer is Crown funded high-value, high-risk projects go through the Cabinet investment management system process and that assurance work that goes into that. In fact, the Government announced extensive changes to that to make it more streamlined and provide better quality assurance to Ministers. I probably don\u2019t have time or, frankly, the energy to get into that tonight, but rest assured we are taking on board many of the criticisms of it and I\u2019ve been intensely frustrated at the way in which the system doesn\u2019t work, actually, in relation to assurance. So we\u2019re making those changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIn relation to the New Zealand Transport Authority\u2019s processes, they have the National Land Transport Fund, obviously, and board has operational authority to make decisions in relation to that. But for high-value, high-risk projects, they can also go through the investment management system assurance process as well. To give you an example, there is the Northland Expressway, a road of national significance that just got announced for stage 1 and has gone through extensive gateway processes as well. So the short answer is that it depends.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002201f738f244724e5b8da066dba7a6a526\u0022 data-id=\u00226eeecaf0712c139ab84957f43ebe5eb7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002201f738f244724e5b8da066dba7a6a526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226eeecaf0712c139ab84957f43ebe5eb7\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour) (21:09)\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to ask a couple of questions about maintenance and local roads in particular, and I suppose that sort of cost shift for councils. We touched earlier on the fact that councils can often get left with those unfunded mandates to do various bits and pieces. Certainly, from my perspective, while the Government has been talking about fixing potholes and getting transport back to basics, the evidence from NZTA to the committee tells quite a different story. They warned that councils would be struggling to meet what is their share of the maintenance cost and could end up restricting the use of bridges. They could end up using cheaper materials or finding other ways to reduce what is then their maintenance responsibilities. And at the same time, only $600 million of a $3.2 billion road maintenance target has been actually directed towards local roads, despite, obviously, the fact that local roads make up the overwhelming majority of the network. I understand that that doesn\u2019t necessarily mean that\u2019s where the overwhelming majority of people are using a road at any one point in time, but that is the nature of the network. On top of that, the Government intends to transfer six special purpose roads to local authorities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWith the future funding, I think that the split on what that future funding might look like is still unresolved, and so I suppose my question to the Minister is: NZTA told the committee that the current funding settings could lead councils to restrict the use of bridges and to use cheaper sorts of materials, so has the Minister had those conversations, does he accept that NZTA assessment, and, if so, has any thought gone into what he might do about it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWith regard to that $3.2 billion fund that I mentioned, can he explain or walk us through why only $600 million of that fund goes to local roads, given that they do make up the overwhelming majority of New Zealand\u2019s road network?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u002213f1483b2eb48d91983c37aedd67dd85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213f1483b2eb48d91983c37aedd67dd85\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (21:11)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, in relation to the special purpose roads: those are matters for the transport agency and they\u2019ll be considering that. In relation to local roads, I mean, it\u2019s like everything. As we\u2019ve talked about for 40 minutes now, there\u2019s never enough money for everything. Local roads are very important. It\u2019s co-funded through the transport agency and local councils via rates. Often, to be honest, one of the challenges is that councils are allocated money which they don\u2019t spend, and I get perennially frustrated when I see the reports of councils that have had money allocated to them for local projects that they fart around not progressing. That\u2019s intensely frustrating because, at the same time the council is complaining about being underfunded, not having resources, often there\u2019s money there and they don\u2019t spend it. It\u2019s sort of like \u201CDon\u2019t come and complain when you can\u2019t even spend the money that\u2019s been allocated.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ENow, in their defence, I partly understand the three-year NZTA - GPS - NLTP - RLTP acronym soup process which has gone through all of that. It\u2019s not entirely their fault, but often it is, and I encourage them to get on with it. Part of the issue, to be honest, just while I\u2019ve got my talking stick, is the convoluted planning processes we make councils go through. They\u2019re often very, very simple projects, and, you know, people are waiting around for six or nine months before they can spend the money because they\u2019ve got to do a consent and go and get a permission for doing that, and they\u2019ve got to do a local business case for a very small project. I mean, I get very, very frustrated by all this stuff, and so the Resource Management Act reform will help with that. Culture change inside councils would help too, frankly. The point is that the local roads are the backbone of the network. We\u2019re going to continue to invest in local roads, and, in the same way, we\u2019re going to continue to look after the State highway network, which is very important maintenance and operations of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022 data-id=\u0022f775b4bdd0c22cc4e93e083fe8b8d354\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f775b4bdd0c22cc4e93e083fe8b8d354\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai) (21:13)\u003C/span\u003E: I note that today the notice of requirement designation was lifted for the East-West Link. I thought I\u2019d share with the Minister that on the weekend I was doorknocking in my electorate in H\u0101taitai, and a number of people raised concerns about the proposed Mount Victoria Tunnel changes and how they would adversely impact residents in H\u0101taitai and Kilbirnie. Given that there\u2019s no way there\u2019s going to be funding for the Mount Victoria Tunnel any time in the next decade or two, what should I say to those constituents? They kind of can\u2019t move on with their lives. They\u2019re not going to have their land taken by the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA), but, presumably, NZTA is going to go ahead and acquire some of the adjacent properties, which is going to leave them with no neighbours, no neighbourhood, and just living with this kind of uncertainty of maybe. You know, people can\u2019t just move on and make our community better because there\u2019s this fantasy project, as the Minister\u2019s referred to. It\u2019s a fantasy project that has no funding and will have no funding. Why won\u2019t the Government consider doing the same thing it\u2019s just done with the East-West Link, after 10 years, allowing other people to move on with the land development and move on and do other things with that area?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f87fa0bb64fbad66f7c9d99b9e3a0640\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f87fa0bb64fbad66f7c9d99b9e3a0640\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (21:15)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not a fantasy project, and the member\u2019s wrong when she says there\u2019s no funding for it for 10 years. It\u2019s not correct and I don\u2019t know where she gets that idea from\u2014it\u2019s not correct. She\u2019s the local MP for H\u0101taitai; I\u2019m not, so what she says to those residents is over to her. But it is a very important project for Wellington, for the reasons that have been well-traversed by her and I many, many, many times. In fact, the New Zealand Transport Agency has just lodged a fast-track application for it, I think yesterday or earlier this week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e61e20367367f79f01df75a667848fb8\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, but it\u2019s not funded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de56183dbed06226128140d0728d1f78\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Sure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baa827dfb71993081e1850a4b6d7af00\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t have $4 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecd8185d274cd3052b4ef9a48b4e1069\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Sure\u2014sure. It\u2019s not funded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3506aea0fcf6909e90f1876e97047b1\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: The benefit-cost ratio (BCR) is 0.7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cae541cbf95fb194cc416db2aa40d72\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Lots of projects aren\u2019t funded. The Auckland Light Rail fantasy project that you were in support of was not funded. There\u2019s lots of stuff\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f99a629a3b2b691d99a4dbb2dac6ca11\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly, it\u2019s a fantasy project.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227975aa5b01b81c516de48d8e4ee128a6\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there\u2019s lots of stuff\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022092d51edc42a1962d635238d97ed5da2\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: You just admitted it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a39a6a23b49cf0771ee701cb81528fae\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Lots of things aren\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da640b6c07c34f3be7ce13b028158ec5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just for the advantage of the people living at home, it\u2019s much easier if you stand up and seek the call, ask the question, and then we\u2019ll get our\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b6778196661a922dcb82c3543dbbcd9\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Lots of projects aren\u2019t funded\u2014lots of projects aren\u2019t funded. Partly what we\u2019re trying to do is create a sequence pipeline, which is exactly what the experts say you need to do when it comes to infrastructure projects. As they become ready for funding and they\u2019re ready for construction funding, you fund them. That\u2019s part of the sequence pipeline. The member can see it, publicly available, for herself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022 data-id=\u00220a8a166019b3005242e17d2eb00c0e0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a8a166019b3005242e17d2eb00c0e0d\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai) (21:16)\u003C/span\u003E: According to the list that the Minister put out, this project isn\u2019t going to start for at least 10 years. We all know, as they\u2019ve said, there\u2019s no money in there. The money has to be prioritised to projects that make the best use of our limited transport funding. So I guess, I would put to him, on behalf of the residents of H\u0101taitai and Kilbirnie, that it would be much better if the $100 or $200 million the Government\u2019s currently putting towards this project was put towards improving public transport right now, not acquiring land and having this shadow hang over neighbourhoods of some four-lane road, which is probably not ever going to be affordable or makes sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIn the most recent thing that was sent to me, released under the Official Information Act\u2014and I\u2019ll be happy to table that\u2014it says that the BCR is less than one; it\u2019s 0.7. It\u2019s clearly one of the lowest priority of the roads of national significance; there\u2019s no funding available for it, and it\u2019s limiting the ability of the community to move forward with far more cost effective improvements to our transport system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u0022945750f47e61dd43979707ff24fbbdcd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022945750f47e61dd43979707ff24fbbdcd\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (21:17)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I mean, all I can do is repeat what I just said, which is lodging for fast track\u2014yep, there\u2019s some money involved in that, but we think that\u2019s a valuable or justifiable use of money. The project is not funded at the moment. Three-point\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022588075af99f52eb48bffdb8e806ef6c7\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: Just let it go! Nobody wants it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3bde8be4efac769b99cdec8f9e2dba5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: You sound like\u2014who\u2019s the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe3cf363c11fad458c504ebe20f39be6\u0022\u003EHon Member: \u003C/span\u003EElsa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243a796c3553f8229bf1acea9d0496709\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: You sound like Elsa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ec6b21860ff42a8bfcfbf955e54750a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e57a0fae490a288f215c1b63c1fe01a\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: [\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003ESings\u003C/span\u003E] Let it go!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3787bc403043f7c755fdf53a039ecf6\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: You sound like my son. He\u2019s constantly singing \u201CLet It Go\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EAnyhoo, it\u2019s an important project; it\u2019s not funded at the moment. By the way, it\u2019s not just $4 billion for Mount Victoria. There four elements of that project: there\u2019s the basin, there\u2019s The Terrace, there\u2019s Mount Victoria, there\u2019s Te Aro improvements through State Highway 1\u2014it\u2019s a complicated project. You know, we should have got on with it years ago, but here we are. I believe it will get built. The member\u2019s welcome to continue to campaign against it. I look forward to having long battles on the campaign trail about it in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002201f738f244724e5b8da066dba7a6a526\u0022 data-id=\u002273bd71ae27474a5b76724c088af58e35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002201f738f244724e5b8da066dba7a6a526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273bd71ae27474a5b76724c088af58e35\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour) (21:18)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to move on to some public transport questions, mainly because it\u2019s always striking how little attention it has received over the last few years. Whilst I appreciate the Minister\u2019s previous answer about council not necessarily always\u2014how the frustrated he can be when councils don\u2019t spend the money. It just reminds me of the incredible influence that a Government policy statement (GPS) can have and how important it is not to, necessarily, be delayed, because the GPS does seem to particularly send the signal to those councils. The Minister will well remember what negative impacts can happen when a GPS doesn\u2019t signal, for instance, public transport, and councils don\u2019t necessarily, then, go pursue work programmes on the misunderstanding that the Minister du jour doesn\u2019t favour it and money gets rescinded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAnyhow, I\u2019m still banging on about how Christchurch lost $78 million, obviously. But this time round I will move on and note that public transport\u2014well, that councils\u2014nevertheless, often, find themselves having to fund new costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESince July 2025, public transport authorities required, for instance, just as an example, to purchase zero-emission buses when they replace their fleets, and yet central government has provided no specific support towards that additional capital cost or for them to just simply meet those requirements. The Government mandates that public transport authorities make those purchases, so my question to the Minister is, is he aware how much that mandate has added to councils\u2019 capital costs since July 2025? That\u2019s a start\u2014if he could answer that, that would be much appreciated, and his answer to that will guide my next question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u0022570815a3331596beeb3f7a42fb31dc12\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022570815a3331596beeb3f7a42fb31dc12\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (21:21)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m advised that the bus mandate was a previous Government policy that we decided to keep. The Opposition regularly likes to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002201f738f244724e5b8da066dba7a6a526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022204c16ed9592d456512dbc109d4c1be5\u0022\u003EDr Tracey McLellan\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a good policy\u2014where\u2019s the p\u016Btea?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223622e7fe0743b38aae65bb56d1940197\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Opposition regularly likes to say that we tore up climate policies. It\u2019s true in relation to some policies, but it\u2019s not true in relation to this one. I\u2019m also advised that there is no extra cost because the whole-of-life costs of buying an electric bus are cheaper than buying a diesel bus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dca7b20260b94cda81a3187e58a1d7c9\u0022 data-id=\u0022989d5335d51dc39a0fb8bd532c1f565c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dca7b20260b94cda81a3187e58a1d7c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022989d5335d51dc39a0fb8bd532c1f565c\u0022\u003EMIKE DAVIDSON (Green) (21:21)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I just want to get some clarification, because it was more than $78 million that Christchurch lost; it was over $800 million, and part of that was the $800 million that was on the draft Government Policy Statement for land transport for mass rapid transit (MRT). We\u2019re just wondering how that disappeared and whether it is a priority commitment of this Government to reinstate for MRT for greater Christchurch?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe other question I do have quickly is around the Woodend Bypass. I noticed the member of Parliament for the electorate has just recently that it\u2019s great to see that work is under way on the Woodend Bypass. I\u2019d just like to check whether that is actually a correct statement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u00224e9cf3d519482494d466987884126e6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e9cf3d519482494d466987884126e6d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (21:22)\u003C/span\u003E: Taking them in reverse order: yes, work is under way, but it\u2019s not construction work\u2014as in, it\u2019s not the main construction work. But there is work happening down there, obviously. The member can see it for himself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIn relation to mass rapid transit for Christchurch: there\u2019s never been $800 million for mass rapid transit in Christchurch. I\u2019m advised that was the overall cost of the project if it happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dca7b20260b94cda81a3187e58a1d7c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d1fff5ab4098b45b169d9414339c8e5\u0022\u003EMike Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: It was on the draft.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea8bfab9bf2901f1780c8335ee18e996\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there was no money for it; that was just the estimated cost\u2014not funded or anything like that. It\u2019s not worth going back through the potted saga of the money that was for the business case. It was a very expensive business case by the way, which is potentially why the council gave it up. It\u2019s now funding Brougham Street, which I\u2019m sure the member is very happy about\u2014or partly funding Brougham Street.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003ELook, I\u2019m actually conceptually interested in rapid transit in Christchurch, but here\u2019s the point: there\u2019s very little point in standing up and saying \u201CWell, let\u2019s build trams and light rail in Christchurch\u201D. Let\u2019s do the work. Let\u2019s do a spatial plan for Christchurch and the surrounding area; let\u2019s think about, over the next 20 to 30 years, what we\u2019re going to build and where we\u2019re going to build it; let\u2019s think about the transport plans. Planning reform and the Resource Management Act changes we\u2019re making will allow for all of that to take place in a structured way\u2014involving the Crown, too, by the way, because that\u2019s an important part of it. Then, let\u2019s build up the evidence base and the case over time. Let\u2019s get away from immediately jumping to \u201CWow, look at these great, stylised pictures of trams down Brougham Street or light rail cars down Dominion Road\u201D. Let\u2019s actually do the work before we start to make major investment decisions. There\u2019s been too much fantasy stuff\u2014too many fantasy-land projects, too many people interested in the AI, stylised drawings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ecf2d9c5610f19b5e074d5f83cd9bc6\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve changed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c21d3b4da32e529b0bff011bf0986f39\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve changed? I\u2019ve certainly got heavier in the last three years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002201f738f244724e5b8da066dba7a6a526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022811184eb4b9cd047bebb806229d5a4b5\u0022\u003EDr Tracey McLellan\u003C/span\u003E: Roads of National Significance are what\u2019s a fantasy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221866f16f45a345953de5b5e7fc914739\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no\u2014on the Roads of National Significance, no one ever promised they would all start straight away. That\u2019s not true. We always said they were a part of the pipeline; they remain part of the pipeline\u2014in fact, six of them are about to be or are under way. The Hawke\u2019s Bay Expressway\u2014I note that Katie Nimon has entered the House, and she knows all too well. You can see it. You can drive down it right now. The road widening is under way, and you can see the projects happening around the country. You can see \u014Ctaki happening\u2014\u014Ctaki to north of Levin. Cambridge to Piarere will soon be getting under way, and the Northland Expressway, stage 1 is underway or soon to be under way as well. People can see them, but they were never all going to be built at the same time. People who say\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2cc996c5a441c7843bcb932161abe2f\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: You just want to do it on your terms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ec64754ddd4cd0d1ed254a5ad5e6683\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think that\u2019s\u2014in relation to Northland, it was actually in the last Government\u2019s draft Government Policy Statement (GPS) as well, by the way, which is a fact that is conveniently forgotten about by members opposite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfd4e4e4a7cf9887092965c8066576fb\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Four lanes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd656e2e3b4ef201da55cb2e07ce8da9\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, in David Parker\u2019s last draft GPS was stage 1 of the Northland Expressway. The previous Government said that they were interested in funding it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227d19573a8ba4d8283b17374978c8ea2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022325586e45e78c60ab4b89f7412bec46e\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: As it should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022205effa5d8eea942ff4bdc416e5ce602\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly. That\u2019s my point\u2014that it\u2019s a good project, which is why the last Government was interested in it as well. But we\u2019re actually getting on with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e9f78a3ebbe72a156b2c56691933b85\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just let members know that we\u2019re into our last five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022 data-id=\u00222368e1c395bdbb4eec4720625ad22209\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222368e1c395bdbb4eec4720625ad22209\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai) (21:25)\u003C/span\u003E: Just following up on my colleague\u2019s question: $78 million for public transport futures was a package of cost-effective bus improvements that would massively increase frequency\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3a265e04289ebc28240f46551db21b2\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, OK\u2014sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226710095aa1204b3793448571c208ccd4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022850f01a12fc854026f1cf487827fa241\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and practicality of buses. The Minister says that the Government is in favour of public transport and that public transport operational funding has increased, but outside of Auckland, it hasn\u2019t, and there is a desperate need\u2014particularly in a city like Christchurch, which is growing very quickly\u2014to improve bus transport. It\u2019s something that could be done in a short period of time, but there\u2019s nothing for it in this Budget. Could the Minister find some funding for it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u0022abc19b019d15ce9cedbe52373c6350da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abc19b019d15ce9cedbe52373c6350da\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (21:26)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, not at 9.26 p.m. at night on Wednesday, I\u2019m not just going to magic up money. Nicola Willis has just called me, as it happens, while you were talking. You never know, she could have heard your exhortation. It could be good news. I don\u2019t know if anyone\u2019s ever been in the chair and rung another Minister on the phone\u2014that may be a breach of \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EStanding Orders\u003C/span\u003E, and almost certainly is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe short answer is that we\u2019ll continue to look at sensible improvements on this stuff, but I\u2019m not going to make any funding commitments on the floor of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca5df7e8daf43c0da8aedb5081871e3d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re running so close to the edge of \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EStanding Orders\u003C/span\u003E that I\u2019m not about to interfere at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002201f738f244724e5b8da066dba7a6a526\u0022 data-id=\u00221109ba4d9b6e83ececc32f61dc726268\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002201f738f244724e5b8da066dba7a6a526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221109ba4d9b6e83ececc32f61dc726268\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour) (21:27)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair\u2014and I know that we\u2019ve only got a very short amount of time left. The cost of replacing 22 State highway bridged rises from around $110 million in this National Land Transport Programme period to between $300 million and $400 million in the next. Can the Minister tell the committee the total deferred bridge replacement liability across both State highways and local roads? Essentially, things are more expensive if they\u2019re delayed. There are a lot of things that have been pushed into phase\u2014there\u2019s a lot of things being pushed around. If the Minister can just give us a little bit more detail on that, that would be amazing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u0022c15fa381b8ac7aa15d62a423a6976c8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c15fa381b8ac7aa15d62a423a6976c8e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (21:27)\u003C/span\u003E: The short point is that the $110 million is for nine bridges that are needed to be done now, and there will be further work and further funding required as we move on. We do have an end-of-life bridge issue, but it\u2019s also important not to catastrophise it. Some of the bridges are very old, there is no doubt about that, but they also have economic life left in them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhile the member is of course correct to say that things only get more expensive\u2014that is true\u2014respectfully, that\u2019s also not an argument for funding the update of things or the replacement until they are required. That is also expensive, because it comes with trade-offs around the best value use of dollars. It is obviously true that it\u2019s cheaper to do things now, but that would be an argument for doing everything right now. We don\u2019t; we phase and sequence things out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) is just getting on with the job of the end-of-life bridges that are right around the country. Some are more complicated than others. The $110 million is for the nine needed now. We\u2019re getting on with them. There will be further work and further funding required. Maintaining the State highway network and the end-of-life bridges on it and just progressively chunking them off over time is really important. I think it\u2019s important not to catastrophise the problem. It\u2019s a challenge, but we\u2019ve got the money there to do it, and NZTA is actually getting pretty good at doing them in a very standardised, sensible way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022 data-id=\u00228ea058b2d60238b684581ed1f05e2f11\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ea058b2d60238b684581ed1f05e2f11\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour) (21:29)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Some very quick questions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266ce2a0a0973c354adbe606de8bb124b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: They will need to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272e45536f2c11a535242f98b481c2461\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014because we have already talked about the additional Waitemat\u0101 Harbour crossing. Questions for the Minister: what are the expected costs related to the detailed business plan, and what are the anticipated costs to reopen the option from Meola Reef to Kauri Point in his projections, and where abouts is that funding sitting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5bc9eb5dea4b1c568277698b71f657e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5bc9eb5dea4b1c568277698b71f657e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport) (21:29)\u003C/span\u003E: Cabinet has capped the Meola option at $1 million\u201450 percent from the Crown and 50 percent from the council if they choose to take up that invitation. But we\u2019re not spending more than a million; it will come Ministry for Cities, Environment, Regions and Transport (MCERT) baselines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIn relation to the detailed business case, I don\u2019t have those figures to hand. If the member puts it down in writing, we can have a look at that. There will be a cost in relation to the detailed business case. A lot of it will be funding through the MCERT and New Zealand Transport Agency standard operational funding. If there needs to be more, we will consider that in due course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7fafe352af5e10af2182e561ebe604b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the Minister\u2019s time in the chair has come to an end. We now have the Minister for Tertiary Education. The Minister is available to speak to that portfolio until 10 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eedc13c56323e68c4b559e07348a6ed4\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u2014Estimates Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u00221ede04fa5c02555211ae6c9aa360e4d6\u0022\u003ETertiary Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c96149a439844ecfa86967f9caf5f50d\u0022 data-id=\u00226beaebc167c99f3a56dd5c4598b573a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c96149a439844ecfa86967f9caf5f50d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226beaebc167c99f3a56dd5c4598b573a9\u0022\u003EKATIE NIMON (Chairperson of the Education and Workforce Committee) (21:30)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, thank you very much. As the chair of the Education and Workforce Committee, I have the privilege of chairing this Estimates hearing with the Hon Penny Simmonds as the Minister for Tertiary Education. For those that don\u2019t know, Tertiary Education is a separate Vote to Education and has about 2 percent of spending in the Budget 2026\u2014a nice symbol of the importance of tertiary education to the future of our economy and, of course, the report details the amount of funding to which areas within the Budget, which I\u2019m sure we\u2019ll go into.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe talked about the financial sustainability of the sector and funding settings of the Budget as well, but particularly focused on measuring performance of tertiary education, student financial hardship\u2014which is a topic that comes up every year, inevitably\u2014but we focused a lot on those Not in Education, Employment, or Training (NEETs) and the importance of the tertiary education sector in focusing on reducing the number of people not in education or employment or training, and the many different programmes in place to address that. We talked about the better utilisation of the fees-free scheme funding. We talked about work-based learning. As well as that, I think very important to point out that it is the last hearing that would involve Te P\u016Bkenga as an establishment\u2014as it is being disestablished\u2014and talked about the polytechnics and their re-independence and the future of those institutions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe interesting conversation around the enrolment growth and strong balance sheets of w\u0101nanga, and then the industry skills boards that have received additional funding to help make sure that they are providing the appropriate pathway for the workforce; the fact that research funding has been unchanged in Budget 2026. We talked about the importance of international education programmes and, as well as that, an always interesting topic to talk about: the use of artificial intelligence in the tertiary education sector. With that, I think it\u2019s very important to have a fulsome debate on this topic and welcome anyone to read the report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022 data-id=\u0022268d2df035d2148961afaec86136762f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022268d2df035d2148961afaec86136762f\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour) (21:32)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Just to acknowledge both the Minister this evening and our Education and Workforce Committee Chair, Katie Nimon, for the work that they\u2019ve done in this Estimates process. I do note that funding has decreased between years by $185 million, and on top of that is the $1.1 billion cut to fees free that was allocated and invested in the young people studying in New Zealand. The Minister has been with me across a few debates, now, where we\u2019ve experienced the green debt monster because people are very concerned about the amounts of their loans, that study is becoming more expensive, but I haven\u2019t seen that this Budget really responds to those particular challenges, and so that will frame the first part of my questioning for the Minister tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to understand: why was the decision made to allow tertiary institutions to increase their fees by yet another 6 percent? The Minister will understand that hits a 19 percent increase in student fees over her time in three years. What is the total amount of the annual maximum fee movement that has increased under her watch? I\u2019ll start there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7cfcf538d777a6f0ba742338edc5c65\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7cfcf538d777a6f0ba742338edc5c65\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green) (21:34)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. As per the previous Estimate debates, I\u2019ll dump my five-minute contribution out of the way so that I don\u2019t have to keep constantly timing myself. Just wanting to acknowledge and thank the Minister for her respectful engagement over the last two years. This is going to be the last Estimates debate we\u2019ll be doing in this Parliament, potentially forever, depending on the outcome of the election for myself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt was good to see the Minister at the Otago University Students\u2019 Association (OUSA) leaders\u2019 debate. I was a little bit confused to see her because it was called the OUSA leaders\u2019 debate but then I read the day before that there were some leadership ructions within the National Party, but I didn\u2019t realise that it would happen that quickly. Then I saw my colleague Shanan Halbert there as well and then I realised that it was actually broader than just leaders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy question is around three streams, around the issue of student poverty, around the fees-free scheme, and around the issue of polytechnic support. I\u2019ll start off with a really crucial issue which is the issue of student poverty. The Minister might recall that I sent her a letter on 31 March 2026. It was around the recently released report that we released around the issue of student poverty around Aotearoa New Zealand. My question around that is: did the Minister read that report and are there measures in this current Budget or any planned Budgets within the Estimates period that would alleviate some of that student poverty issue? What cost of living measures were specifically considered for students, given that they were excluded from the cost of living fuel crisis support? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI note that during the Vote Tertiary Education hearing the Minister said that she would have a look at the idea of potentially raising the course-related cost, which has not risen since 1992, except for a brief period in 2020 when it was raised to $2,000 around the COVID support. That could be a good way to enable a slight measure of cost of living relief for students without unduly stretching the Treasury. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll turn now to the issue of fees free. The Government has raised the number of youth guaranteed placements from 1,000 to 2,000 as part of their initiative, as part of the proceeds of scrapping the fees free. Is the Minister aware that in the final year of the first year of the fees-free scheme that the vast majority of students who received fees free were actually from polytechnics\u20146,000 out of the 10,000 that received that in 2025. The last year of the first year fees-free scheme were polytech students. Why wasn\u2019t consideration given to potentially boosting polytech support or potentially even making polytechs free for students, as happened in some great institutions like the Southern Institute of Technology? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy last question is around the polytech support line in the Budget. You can see in the Vote Estimate line that there\u2019s allocated Budget lines that have been earmarked for polytech support that have had quite significant underspends around it. For example\u2014I\u2019ll just read this here; it\u2019s hard when you have multiple tabs open\u2014of the $25.2 million fund that was allocated, only $6 million of it was spent, so there\u2019s a $19.2 million underspend around that fund. Why has that occurred at the same time when, over that financial year, some polytechs have had to make some really tough decisions to stay financially viable? For example, Taranaki has reportedly had to cut 20 percent of their staff, for example. In my own area\u2014Otago Polytechnic\u2014we know that around 100 roles have been lost and I feel like there could have been potential reallocations of that fund. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhy was there an underspend of that fund and what will happen to the washup of that unallocated funding? We also see that there\u2019s support for a polytech property management line that ended in that period. Are there any considerations for any further supports that will be further given to polytechs? I\u2019ll use my remaining minute to ask any follow-up questions that might arise from the Minister\u2019s answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u002220f7e31968e2234b6d9fc30f8a754b48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220f7e31968e2234b6d9fc30f8a754b48\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Tertiary Education) (21:39)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank you to the two members. I agree that the Otago University Students\u2019 Association debate was done in very good humour and, while there wasn\u2019t raging support for the right, I can say that it was all done in very good humour, so thank you to those that were there supporting us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETurning to the questions from Shanan Halbert, Labour\u2019s MP, the Annual Maximum Fee Movement\u2014yes, look, the 6 percent increase, or the ability to increase fees by 6 percent again, ensured that for that period from 2018 to 2026, the fee increases were roughly aligned with what the cumulative inflation was over that period. So it has taken the fees, essentially, in line with what inflation was over that period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn terms of student poverty\u2014the question from the Green MP\u2014New Zealand student contribution versus the public contribution is about average in the OECD countries. About 74 percent is contributed by the Crown and the remainder by the students. Actually, interestingly, at the OECD debate when that question was asked, it was really obvious that most of the audience had no idea that they were subsidised to that amount. So it\u2019s about average in the OECD countries. Certainly, interest-free loans are the main way in which we support students, and they remain interest-free as long as graduates stay in the country. Hardship grants are available through a number of the institutions. They may be eligible for student hardship assistance. Student allowances, of course, are targeted, and they are inflation adjusted on 1 April each year. This year, they went up by 3.11 percent on 1 April, which impacted about 52,000 students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn terms of additional assistance\u2014and I think we\u2019ve talked about that in the past, or recently\u2014in terms of the costs associated with the particular cost of living shift with the Middle East conflict, I acknowledge, yes, that it\u2019s costing students more to get to their studies, to their placements and things, but we have remained firmly focused on any assistance during this period being targeted and timely and temporary. We consider that students have access to more assistance, such as the hardship grants and the accommodation support, than perhaps the other areas where we\u2019ve provided assistance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve looked slightly quizzically at each other\u2014oh, you\u2019ve found something that might be referring to it? Ah, right. You asked about the unspent portion of contingency. That has been transferred through, and it is just a timing issue of when these funds are needed. So thank you for bringing up that point and allowing us to clarify that. In terms of the Western Institute of Technology at Taranaki, they are still within the New Zealand Institute of Skills and Technology (NZIST) at the moment, so those decisions are being made under the umbrella of NZIST.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBut can I just tell you one story of today. I did a visit to the Universal College of Learning (UCOL) and was absolutely thrilled to see the progress that UCOL in Palmerston North have made. You might recall that their deficit last year was over $9 million. They are forecasting a surplus of over a million this year. They certainly have rationalised some of their programmes where they had smaller numbers going into programmes, but, essentially, they are going to do over 100 percent of their level 3 and above and level 1 and 2\u2014oh, sorry Mr Chair\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a0d59ffcac48718dff86833bb82411d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, yeah, so carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287fa8fa36265212abf07d1359de8aa66\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I\u2019ll be very quick, I promise you. So level 1 and 2, yes, they are running out of a bit of room there, and we were just talking about the possibility of what additional funding might be available for them. So an absolute success story, and I congratulate the staff and management and governance of UCOL. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca397b463888cb7e3e77c88ba2971745\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca397b463888cb7e3e77c88ba2971745\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour) (21:45)\u003C/span\u003E: Excellent. Just to follow up on that with the Minister for Tertiary Education, I guess I just want to understand her rationale for why it was necessary to increase student fees for the third time given that she also cancelled Fees-free, which means a $12,000 loss for particular students. We find ourselves in a cost of living environment where, you know, surveys from Victoria University are telling us that hardship is deeply there, and she\u2019s invested less in the overall budget than she did last year but is charging students more. So what is the rationale there, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b56615b4c5a183e603d337efc6190112\u0022\u003EHon Penny Simmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Have another go and I\u2019ll do them together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aeed533f22cd6ea3b7371170bbdacc13\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: OK, thank you. So just to follow up there: what is the proportion of the transitional funds that have been allocated, and what additional requests has the Minister received throughout that period which she may not have allocated at this particular point?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u00221e50507130b9212b868eb5b15be3bf21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e50507130b9212b868eb5b15be3bf21\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Tertiary Education) (21:46)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Why was it necessary to allow increases in fees? Well, again, getting in line with inflation was really addressing the cost pressures that were occurring on the providers because of that inflation. So it was really enabling the providers to be able to address some of the issues that they were dealing with because of inflation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn terms of the increase that we did give, the 2 percent increase that we have put in place in the Budget, that has been to the foundation level 1 and 2, because those programmes don\u2019t have fees and therefore there was no ability for the providers of those foundation programmes at level 1 and 2 to be able to recoup any of those cost pressures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn terms of the $157 million in contingency for the disestablishment of Te P\u016Bkenga and the standing up of the polytechnics, that hasn\u2019t all been used, and there are some quite big projects that are still sitting there: the Universal College of Learning\u2019s (UCOL\u2019s) rebuild or refurbishment and NorthTec. Both of those are substantial: the NorthTec one is $34 million; the UCOL one I think is just under $30 million. Again, the poster child for the disestablishment of Te P\u016Bkenga, UCOL, now that it is being governed locally by people from the community, they are digging deeper into the need to actually demolish the building that\u2019s there and rebuild new, and they\u2019re getting a more detailed seismic assessment which is showing all the signs of being able to refurbish and strengthen rather than create a hole in the middle of Palmerston North, which the mayor was very agitated about, quite rightly. So having brought community people in to look at what the reality of that build was will actually probably result in a better outcome for that community, at, potentially, a lesser amount than the full amount that was allocated to them for that capital work. I can\u2019t give you the exact detail, but if you want to pop that through to me in writing, we\u2019ll try and give you\u2014but it\u2019s a bit of a rolling thing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022861d3273c9af76e9e3823478aa386e3d\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b06a79951541d1abea62a9f46bc125a8\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014because, obviously, things are being\u2014you\u2019ve asked, in a written\u2014OK, so we\u2019ll get what we can, but it is moving almost on a weekly basis. But we\u2019re not going to run out of money, if you were worried about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022 data-id=\u002213fb23c34a71e4705888271355349887\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213fb23c34a71e4705888271355349887\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green) (21:49)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. If there\u2019s money left in the fund, could Otago Polytech have some more, please? Maybe a couple of million? My second question is around the issue of\u2014and I see that the Minister for Tertiary Education referred to universities and polytechs having hardship funds. Part of the funding for those hardship funds comes from, of course, the student services levy, which allows welfare services like that to be funded. You might\u2019ve seen proposals floating around to abolish or restrict the student services levy. Is that something you\u2019ve sought advice on this term, and is that something that you would look to do in the future, potentially?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u002228db15e3ecd497e3dd8234d5c71c3ce5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228db15e3ecd497e3dd8234d5c71c3ce5\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Tertiary Education) (21:50)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. No, because that is not Government policy. That\u2019s a particular party that is campaigning on that policy, so no, I haven\u2019t sought any advice on that. And yes, you\u2019re quite right, the hardship assistance does come from within the universities. If I could just assure you, though, that the university sector is looking in very good heart. Last year, they had an unaudited surplus of $186 million cumulatively. That was $190 million better than they had budgeted, and $28 million better than the sector\u2019s audited results in 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe university sector is in good heart and able to provide some of that additional support to students in this time of hardship. They have had good domestic growth this year of about 3.4 percent, and also good international growth. None of the universities recorded a deficit last year, so they\u2019re in a strong position, and the three w\u0101nanga, similarly, are in a really strong position, and the polytechnics are strengthening as we speak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022 data-id=\u00221ba2be0faeb90d6ca533142abb7eb1ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ba2be0faeb90d6ca533142abb7eb1ca\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour) (21:51)\u003C/span\u003E: I rest my case there, Minister of Tertiary Education, because you\u2019re saying that polytechs, w\u0101nanga, and universities are all in good hearts and they\u2019re financially doing well, and yet here you are increasing fees for students by 6 percent once again, and of 19 percent overall in your watch. I just don\u2019t comprehend that during a cost of living environment where students are telling us that they are in the most need that they have ever been in. I digress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EMy next question is around the industry skills boards (ISBs), and it\u2019s good to see that there is progress there. It\u2019s not very clear about what progress is coming through. Where are we at with that and the allocation of funds to those ISBs, what are the set dates that you expect the ISBs to be up and running, and what milestones are you working to in that period?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u00220680953a05bc7eea21b9f225bee9ee83\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220680953a05bc7eea21b9f225bee9ee83\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Tertiary Education) (21:52)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. All the ISBs were up and running from 1 January this year, and yes, they got their annual allocation in the Budget of $30 million, but we also reprioritised an additional $3 million because I really want them to take a look at some strategic planning around the retention and recruitment of apprentices. They got a little bit of extra funding to do that, you\u2019ll be pleased to hear, Mr Halbert.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe work-based learning (WBL) units\u2014so let\u2019s take a step back. What was the industry training organisations (ITOs) then became the work-based learning. They are sitting within the ISBs. They have two years to transition out as private training establishments (PTEs), and at this moment, the building construction ITO have transitioned out, the motor industry organisation has transitioned out, the hairdressing has transitioned out, and ServiceIQ has transitioned out into an existing PTE. There\u2019s a couple more that are getting well on the way; the plumbers and gasfitters are well on the way. They\u2019re all working through this process of the ITOs and WBLs that have been sitting in there and working through the process with industry of whether they go out into a new PTE, or into an existing PTE, or whatever configuration they are looking at. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m pretty pleased with what\u2019s going on there. I think all but one have got a full complement of their board. I think it\u2019s only one, isn\u2019t it? It\u2019s just got one missing. They are working well in terms of the updating and renewal of qualifications that they need to be focused on, and I believe that they are engaging well with industry. I\u2019m pleased with how they\u2019re getting on, and I think they have ensured that they understand the Budget and that they are working to their budget of $30 million plus the $3 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222367e46d2facd1c2de802edfb0b24348\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I must comment, it\u2019s a very acronym-heavy ministry you have, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022 data-id=\u0022899b15d226dcf19415967b79fdffb566\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022899b15d226dcf19415967b79fdffb566\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour) (21:55)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. When we came into this term, sustainability of the sector is top of mind for anyone who is working in this particular space. In 2022, under the last Government, we launched a review of funding. That\u2019s something that you discontinued when you started as the Minister for Tertiary Education. Where is that at and what work is currently being done in order to understand the forecast for the next few years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227d19573a8ba4d8283b17374978c8ea2\u0022 data-id=\u00225598a4799fd3e6ba7a25f7198b4dc4a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227d19573a8ba4d8283b17374978c8ea2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225598a4799fd3e6ba7a25f7198b4dc4a2\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland) (21:55)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I just want to ask the Minister for Tertiary Education what she has done for NorthTec, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee6b9dcc331bcbaaad1048c5c191ea48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee6b9dcc331bcbaaad1048c5c191ea48\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Tertiary Education) (21:55)\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, I\u2019ll start with the funding review. Thank you, Mr Chair. Yes, you\u2019re right, the funding review that had been initiated by the previous Government I put on hold and felt there were more critical things that needed to occur and have occurred now. I\u2019m starting to look at the funding review again for higher education, level 7 and above. Very early days; just starting to talk about the scope of that, but very early days, and really wanting to ensure that we are prioritising the areas that we\u2019ve got skill shortages in, making sure that we\u2019re getting good value for money, and that the sector is sustainable in the long run.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s worried me for some time that there are areas where we maybe aren\u2019t training enough, and you look at dentists and vets and things like that, and what we might need to do in those areas. Look, yes, funding review, and I\u2019m happy to keep you informed with that as we go along, but it is very early stages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn terms of Northland, what have we done for Northland? Look, we are working really closely with the community up there. I just think the new\u2014what are we calling them?\u2014establishment advisory group and the initial board up there are working really well. Derek Slatter, the acting chief executive, they are working through a process with their community. We have allocated, I think, $34 million to ensure that they have a knowledge-hub in the centre of town. If it works out to be the right financial thing to do, we can get a business case that stacks up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m really committed to ensuring that Northland has a polytechnic that they are proud of. We know that we\u2019ve got high NEET numbers up there. We know that we\u2019ve got significant needs in the wider health sector that the polytech tends to provide graduates for, and so we\u2019re absolutely committed to ensuring that we stand up NorthTec in a way that it can be successful going forward, that it can be the heart of that Whang\u0101rei community, and ensuring that the industries have the graduates that they need up there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPlaces like Whang\u0101rei, like Nelson, like Invercargill, and New Plymouth, it\u2019s really critical, when you only have one major public tertiary provider, that they are strong, that they can operate sustainably, and that they are fit for purpose and that young people and, well, everyone in that region is proud to be part of. So, very pleased to be doing that for NorthTec.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218a46841613370e4bf20318993608416\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re down to the last 12 seconds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022 data-id=\u00222615dd69ebad7e1ccc86b2a216fde7c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222615dd69ebad7e1ccc86b2a216fde7c8\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour) (21:59)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. One final question is just a follow-up on the Youth Guarantee (YG) numbers. I note that there is an increase in this Budget. How did the Minister for Tertiary Education come to that particular number? Was it purely a Budget decision? When we have almost 100,000 young people not engaged in education, employment, or training, 175, Minister, is simply not enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7e63fdfefdcc322b5b52df14e843509\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7e63fdfefdcc322b5b52df14e843509\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Tertiary Education) (21:59)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I did have the number here, and it is actually more than that. It\u2019s 5,500 that will be the total number of YG places. Yes, it\u2019s still well short of the 100,000, however, remember that YG is a part of the whole picture, with Ministry of Social Development (MSD), YG, and other supports around that. Again, I\u2019ll refer back, because I visited there today, to University College of Learning who, working closely with MSD, contracted to take two cohorts of MSD clients through revenue from MSD; so polytechs working together and ensuring that we are putting support and pathways in for those young NEETs to find a way to employment. Thank you for that question. Yep, it would be lovely to have more, but we\u2019re gradually working through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222828eb864fae1ffd0484ff560c8153af\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: On that last set of acronyms, the time has come for me to leave the chair. I\u2019ll report progress on this bill presently. The committee is suspended and will resume tomorrow morning at 9 a.m. to consider the Disability Support Services Bill. Have a good night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterItalicsCentred\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 10 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229fcbac387dadd73030061bcbb161bda4\u0022\u003EExtended Sitting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002276847a6cc65bbc3211bd26760492b2d9\u0022\u003EThursday, 20 August 2026\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022796d45ba3d6d1a6b4290db35f12b1b15\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227a854398aa7d50b43d6663bd538c2439\u0022\u003EDisability Support Services Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e8829de72d75bbe1a3903870f90bd184\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u00223d67a9b3aeb15bb5fcbc08ee2f9c7aae\u0022\u003EPart 1 Preliminary provisions, and Schedule 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022907507acd503ea82391b142451ace1d3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Good morning, everybody. The committee is resumed. We come now to the Disability Support Services Bill, and we begin with the debate on Part 1, \u201CPreliminary provisions\u201D, and Schedule 1. This is the debate on clauses 3 to 6. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc08b70b7dfc8b3bb1e984ef6a0b7fa5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc08b70b7dfc8b3bb1e984ef6a0b7fa5\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues) (09:00)\u003C/span\u003E: I would like to just make some introductory comments on this part, and remind the House that at the moment, Disability Support Services (DSS) operates without a dedicated legislative framework, which means that important decisions about support, funding, and service delivery don\u2019t have a level of legal clarity, transparency, and certainty that disabled people and taxpayers should expect. The disability support system must be fair, consistent, transparent, and sustainable. Disabled people and their families should be able to understand how Disability Support Services works, and to have the confidence in how the decisions are made. Once this bill becomes law, the system will have clearer rules and greater certainty straight away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI do want to give some thanks to the parliamentary staff, particularly to the accessibility advisors; and I want to give significant gratitude to the select committee for the significant work they put in, and in particular the chair, Joseph Mooney, for the work that you did in the process of this bill, and in recommending changes that make it clearer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAlthough I have not watched the submissions, I\u2019ve paid significant attention to them, read many of them, and my team have paid close attention. I also want to thank the team at DSS, who have worked incredibly hard to ensure that the reflections, considerations, and suggestions by submitters have been incorporated. Thank you to the team.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EDuring this time, I\u2019ve also met with disabled people, organisations, and providers to make sure that we did address the issues that they had presented, and I wanted to touch on a couple of them. I do want to very clearly clarify that the bill does not broaden family responsibility. The bill says that DSS makes a contribution to disabled people, and families do that where it\u2019s appropriate; that is exactly what happens today. We do know that families\u2019 role and contribution sits alongside the contribution and support from DSS. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI also want to make very clear that at no time did I ever make any comment about disabled people being a financial burden for the State, and I find that offensive. The point is that the lack of clarity without the legislative framework has created litigation, and the potential for system-level financial risk. The bill does create a deliberate legislative framework to support clarity and transparency, which are things that the disability community has been asking for, for many, many years. Over the time I\u2019ve been the Minister, that has been the clarion call: to have clarity, transparency, and consistency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe bill ensures that a Minister and officials are unable to make arbitrary decisions that impact funding for services. That is a massive improvement on the past. The bill requires consultation before approved support programmes are changed; it requires decision makers to have regard for statutory principles; it requires consideration of outcomes for disabled people. Actually, the bill provides a clearer and firmer basis for how future decisions are made than exist today. I will say it again: the bill does not change eligibility, entitlement, or support that people receive. The bill is not changing supports; it is about establishing the legal framework that sits underneath these supports. Of course, it doesn\u2019t mean that the work to strengthen DSS stops here; quite the opposite. It allows us to make very, very important improvements in the foundation on which those further improvements can be made, which, of course, benefit disabled people and their families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022 data-id=\u002290f78765b213de6230912bac316973f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290f78765b213de6230912bac316973f6\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green) (09:04)\u003C/span\u003E: I wanted to start with clause 3, \u201CPurposes of Act\u201D, and I wanted to, first of all, test the language on clause 3(c). This is \u201Cmitigate litigation risk, and related fiscal risk, to the Crown\u201D. The reason why I wanted to focus on this is that throughout the submissions, we have heard a lot from carers, particularly, and disabled people who they look after, on the reality that they see this provision\u2014the purpose of the bill\u2014which was to prevent further litigation risk, as preventing carers, particularly, from fighting for additional rights in the courts, which they can then secure, and obtain greater rights, and greater\u2014basically, care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI wanted to ask the Minister, to begin with: when it comes to the purpose of the Act, and her intention to mitigate litigation risk\u2014related to fiscal risk\u2014why would she be wanting to, potentially, prevent carers from being able to obtain further rights through the courts? If we\u2019re to take a rights-based approach, why would an avenue be taken away from them to be able to secure the rights that they may be deemed to be entitled to\u2014for example, being greater in line with the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, or just employment matters? She did make, in her opening remarks, the comment that she finds it offensive that she sees disabled people as a financial risk, but in the purpose of the Act, there\u2019s some very explicit language here that one of the purposes is to avoid related fiscal risk to the Crown, but if we are to interpret that \u201Crelated fiscal risk to the Crown\u201D, it\u2019s actually greater resources for carers or disabled people, right? Because where else would this fiscal risk be coming from, if it\u2019s not litigation relating to the very same rights, support, or resources to carers and disabled people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI wanted to ask what kind of litigation risk would she be wanting to prevent? What are the things that she wouldn\u2019t want carers to be able to fight for in the courts? And what are some of the related fiscal risks that the Minister could foresee that could come about with carers, for example, being able to litigate and win additional rights or resources within the court system? Ultimately, what this looks like to me is cutting an avenue for rights to be won through the courts. If she\u2019s going to cut that, I would like to know: what are the things that she would have foreseen carers could have additionally fought for and won within the court system, that could have resulted in so-called fiscal risk to the Crown, as opposed to potentially rights being earned by carers through the court system? That\u2019s my first question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESecondly, what would she say to the people who had court cases that are outstanding in relationship to these matters\u2014in relationship to these provisions\u2014does she have a message to them? The purpose of the Act only notes one Supreme Court case, but we know that obviously there are people that would have wanted to fight this in the courts, or who would have been getting ready to fight this in the courts. If she has any message for those groups of people, in relationship to the purpose of the Act, that would be great. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u002210d4ee94fc585e52fa18a32bc5e61c90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210d4ee94fc585e52fa18a32bc5e61c90\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues) (09:08)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for his question, and I think it is a really good opportunity to clarify what is intended here. There is a longstanding challenge where carers have felt undervalued and underpaid, and that\u2019s why one of the really important parts of this legislation, which we will no doubt address later, is support programmes. One of the first ones that I envisage will be worked on is a carer support package, to resolve some of the challenges that carers face today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhere the fiscal and legal risk comes from, I want to see\u2014and I would have thought that every member in this House wants to see\u2014funding that\u2019s allocated to Disability Support Services going to disabled people, their carers, and families, as opposed to going to lawyers, and fighting things in the court. That is very simply what is meant by fiscal and legal risk, and that is why clarity is required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe decisions around funding sit with the Government. There\u2019s been a lot of work that\u2019s been done around making sure that now there are assessments done across the country that are consistent. Every needs assessment and service coordination (NASC) provider uses the same assessment process. For the first time ever, carers are now considered as part of that assessment. Is it perfect? No, it\u2019s not. We\u2019ve still got more work to do, but that is clarifying the fact that we want to ensure that funding that is available is going to disabled people and their carers, rather than being spent in litigation and court fees, and to make it clear that there was never an intention that the Ministry of Social Development would be the employer of family carers.  That was never the intention, and that is why it is important to address that. The question was raised about those that are currently in a legal process. They are under way, they have been saved, and those processes are under way and working through the court process at the moment. But I do want to say, the fact that there has been no legislative framework is what creates legal uncertainty and therefore legal risk. When there is legal risk, it creates fiscal risk, which is of course something we should all be awake to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea30705b872c89f2db8a8f08c5d9da4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea30705b872c89f2db8a8f08c5d9da4d\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour) (09:11)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to add a question to the line of questioning that Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March has embarked upon, and I would like the Minister for Disability Issues to clarify this. Can the Minister confirm\u2014so the Minister said, just now, something about them being saved, the people who are going through the court processes at the moment, if I heard that correctly? Can the Minister confirm that this bill will extinguish 40 employment-related claims that are filed, but haven\u2019t been determined or resolved at the introduction of this bill to the House\u2014that is my first question to the Minister\u2014and whether she can share, for the benefit of the House, what the fiscal cost is of those 40 claims?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to go right back to the start of Part 1, clause 3(a), which, as the Minister said in her opening remarks, the aim of this legislation is to provide a legal framework for Disability Support Services funding. Literally nobody argues with the need for a legislative framework, not through submissions and not on the side of the House, but it is the form of this legal framework that we\u2019re here to test, today, at committee stage, with the Minister. The Minister has said, in this House, that there was consultation with disability communities prior to the introduction of this bill, and I would like some clarity from the Minister around that\u2014when she said that MSD has consulted\u2014because, time and again, we have heard from disabled people, carers, and their representative organisations that there was no specific consultation on this legislation prior to its introduction. So is the Minister then referring to consultation that was held in February and March 2025, during the review process of Disability Support Services (DSS), and then used that to inform the drafting of this legislation? So I\u2019d like, for the sake of clarity, and for those in the sector as well, for the Minister to confirm or clarify that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy second question around the purpose and the framework for DSS-funded disability support services is\u2014I think all of us in this House knows that politics is about choices. There are different ways in which this framework could have been drafted. The Minister has chosen to codify and legislate, as she has said, what currently happens when it comes to DSS funding, and I have a few questions around that. The first is, the Minister will be aware that the previous Government had work under way which was to transform the disability support services - funding landscape. It was literally called the DSS Transformation Bill, and it was working towards actually implementing the principles of Enabling Good Lives when it comes to the way that DSS funding is disseminated to disabled people. That would have transformed the type of services that disabled people and carers could access through this funding. There was also $100 million ring-fenced for that. I would like to know why the Minister has chosen to codify DSS funding that is disseminated in a way that, for years, disabled people have said does not work for them, instead of transforming the system when there was a framework there that she could have built on, and money that was ring-fenced to be able to achieve that transformation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Minister has said that there\u2019s been a clarion call from disability communities for a legislative framework\u2014that is true\u2014but there has been an even stronger clarion call from the sector to transform DSS funding, and she has chosen not to do that in this legislation, and I would like her to clarify why. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI do have one more quick question that I\u2019ll get in there. The Minister has said in her opening remarks\u2014and many times\u2014that her aim is to improve certainty and transparency for disabled people through this legislation. If that is the case, why is there so little information in the primary legislation, with extensive focus on ministerial programmes through secondary legislation that nobody has been able to see when submitting on this bill? How does that improve either transparency of decision making or eligibility or access of this funding or certainty for disabled people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u00223617fe7c4925aa3e94ff592434bb19f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223617fe7c4925aa3e94ff592434bb19f0\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues) (09:15)\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s quite a lot to go through this, so I just hope I will get through all of them. So the first thing is that in terms of any of the claims that are currently lodged, they are saved. So once the legislation is passed, there will be no further ability for new claims. They are well under way\u2014the existing claims\u2014in terms of being settled or resolved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn terms of consultation, one of the challenges has been, you know, first the work around stabilising. That work to the Disability Support Services (DSS) has been done, and then we moved after that to look at what strengthening DSS looks like. The team from DSS have done significant consultation with disabled people directly, and with organisations, and over the time that I\u2019ve been Minister, I\u2019ve had similar engagements where the messages around consistency, transparency, simplicity, and fairness are all kind of values and principles that came through loud and clear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe other thing that came through really loud and clear is how much DSS needs to improve. The member referred to the Enabling Good Lives principles, which were established back in 2014-15, and that has very much been a focus of how the bill has been established so that further improvements can be made. It\u2019s hard to improve things if you don\u2019t have the foundations in place, which is why this first bill is very much about just laying out what the current state is. Then, one of the challenges has been the lack of understanding about how the current state operates. What we\u2019ve heard in the consultation is, \u201Clack of transparency, lack of understanding; it\u2019s too complex; it\u2019s not simple enough\u201D. So trying to deal with, in the first stage, getting those foundations in place, and having a foundation on which things could be improved for DSS, has been really important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe member raised the areas around transformation, and I would say that the improvements that we have made to flexible funding, that were announced in September last year and came into effect on 1 February this year, really is an example of what an improvement looks like\u2014so having a consistent assessment around the country that is transparent, where carers are considered, but really importantly, individual needs of individual disabled people are taken into account in their assessment. That has been a significant improvement\u2014some would say transformational\u2014to at least have, everywhere around the country, consistent, because it was grossly unfair to have disabled people in one part of the country getting a much wider range of supports and much greater funding than others. That\u2019s exactly what we heard in consultation. That\u2019s exactly what I heard in meetings: that it was unfair, people didn\u2019t understand it, and it wasn\u2019t transparent. So that\u2019s why it is important that we have this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to address the member\u2019s question about why more wasn\u2019t put into primary legislation. Why is it in secondary legislation? There\u2019s this really important balance, because one of the things that is really special, that needs to be protected in the disability support system, is the fact that it is very individualised.  The improvements we made to flexible funding are an example of just how individualised it is. You want to protect that flexibility, so one of the first support programmes that I envisage will be done, which is through secondary legislation, is to lock in the gains in the flexible funding changes that were announced. At the moment, without any protection, they can be changed overnight again. That\u2019s why the intention was to get the balance right of the foundations in primary legislation but also of the support programmes in secondary legislation. In the secondary legislation\u2014so the support programmes\u2014there will be extensive consultation that relates to that particular support programme. We want to be able to lock in those improvements. If they\u2019re put into primary legislation, it actually makes it harder and slower to make improvements. That is the balance of ensuring there is maximum flexibility but still having the core foundations in primary legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI accept that was another area that, perhaps, wasn\u2019t communicated well enough at the start, but following many of the conversations I\u2019ve had, particularly with disability organisations in the last couple of weeks\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222af470ac6092d18542efe16379d9cbeb\u0022\u003EHon Priyanca Radhakrishnan\u003C/span\u003E: She just keeps blaming them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022762041e2a258c9a6c0dbc37330277cf0\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014they understand that clarity\u2014look, I\u2019m trying to answer the questions that you have raised because I think you\u2019ve raised really important issues and I do want to communicate why things have been put in secondary legislation. If you don\u2019t want me to answer, that\u2019s fine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273ac26b09312b8c7ef29af88d9b4a7fe\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bb9c7165a7f02a2163cd47f30b13154\u0022\u003EHon Priyanca Radhakrishnan\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eefa5095c2b3e9e6bc0131c30e369045\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: OK, I\u2019m going to take Priyanca Radhakrishnan because I feel like there\u2019s a supplementary here, then I\u2019ll come back to you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022 data-id=\u002234c66411847e7db8aecfa3d1b9b9d4c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234c66411847e7db8aecfa3d1b9b9d4c3\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour) (09:22)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, I do appreciate your answers. I do want to hear why you\u2019ve made certain decisions, and I know that others do out there as well. Just on the primary versus secondary legislation decisions here, I take your point that there needs to be a balance between the two, and I\u2019m not arguing or I\u2019m not asking why everything is not in primary legislation, but I have looked at this legislation versus the Social Security Act, for example, which, again, has some level of discretion\u2014not as much as the disability support services. I take your point around that, but I think the question that disabled people have and are asking is: why wasn\u2019t there, for example, eligibility criteria? The high level of who can access disability support services funding hasn\u2019t changed from 1996, so if you are codifying the current state of play in legislation and since you\u2019ve been quite clear that you don\u2019t intend to change eligibility criteria, why couldn\u2019t then some of the bones of that\u2014who can access disability support funding, how can they access disability support funding? You have talked about the assessment and allocation tools that you have brought in for consistency\u2014and I\u2019ll come back to that in a minute\u2014but those sorts of things are not going to change through ministerial programmes from what you have said. Why could those not have been in primary legislation to give disabled people more certainty around who can access this funding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe second point is around things not being able to be changed so much now through secondary legislation. I seek some clarity around comments that you made prior to the select committee hearing of consideration of this bill, where you had said that they won\u2019t be able to change in the way that they did in March 2024, because Cabinet would make decisions around secondary legislation and it would be gazetted. All of those processes don\u2019t involve any sunlight or consultation with disability communities at all. Therefore, Cabinet passed the changes that happened in March 2024. Sure, they weren\u2019t gazetted, but the gazetting process only becomes public information after the process, so what happened in March could have happened again, except that disabled people came out in force at select committee and said that they need to be consulted when secondary legislation is passed. Select committee has recommended that, and I understand you have accepted it and will make those changes through the committee stage, which is good, but I would like on the record, Minister, to hear what you meant when you said that the Cabinet and gazetting process would have resulted in a different outcome to what the sector saw happen in March 2024. I\u2019m keen for you to respond to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u002276295396a611dfda50be6e0cfa516822\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276295396a611dfda50be6e0cfa516822\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues) (09:25)\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, starting from where you finished in terms of consultation around support programmes, those changes were made in the select committee, so the bill we are considering now has those changes in it already. I just wanted to make that clear. One of the challenges has been that without legislation\u2014if you look back over many years under Governments of every stripe\u2014somebody within the department, a senior official, or chief executive, let alone a Minister, can make decisions at the stroke of a pen, and those changes take effect. That is why having legislation and having support programmes is really important. The support programmes, with the additional consultation requirements, will mean that consultation is required in the creation of a support programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EJust let me give you some examples, because it links to your comment around eligibility. You will be aware, today, that there is no black and white eligibility in disability support services. That\u2019s a good thing because it is hugely flexible, and one of the things that we must protect is the flexibility of disability support services. When you look at individual funding programmes\u2014let\u2019s say, for example, hearing aids; there is eligibility for hearing aids, right? So one of the things that I was clear about is that I didn\u2019t want to have black and white eligibility for disability support services in primary legislation. That is not what happens to date, that is not the current state, and so it would not have been suitable for it to be included in the bill. Whereas if you look at support programmes, that\u2019s where the question of eligibility to do with a specific support programme can and should be considered, and that is where that is important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere will be consultation, as you said, but the consultation will be related to that support programme. If we\u2019re dealing with hearing aids, not every disability organisation and every disabled person will need to be consulted regarding hearing aids. That is why the language in the bill is carefully drafted so that the disability community don\u2019t think they\u2019re going to be in consultation overload, because they\u2019re going to be involved and need to be involved in every single support programme. That is not what is intended. As I said before, there is a really difficult balance here and, I think, a balance that we have struck correctly in the foundations in primary legislation but maintaining maximum flexibility. I had advice\u2014very, very strong advice\u2014from people in the disability community not to make it tight and defined like the Social Security Act, because that would have had, or could have had, significant impacts. It\u2019s been a delicate balance to walk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022 data-id=\u002257beec514d116b13546c75a9794535b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257beec514d116b13546c75a9794535b1\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green) (09:28)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you so much, Madam Chair. I just want to pick up on some comments from this contribution and the one prior that I wanted to take a call on. First of all, I find it really hard to stomach that the Minister could even raise matters of consultation overload where one of the reasons the select committee process was so heated was that there was a lack of consultation. I\u2019d love to understand what the Minister could even define as consultation overload in her eyes when quite the opposite has happened throughout the process of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis takes me back to an earlier comment she made prior to Priyanca Radhakrishnan\u2019s call, which is that she heard in consultation, in relation to people receiving greater support than others\u2014how extensive was that consultation? As far as I understand, there wasn\u2019t a lot of, if any, consultation prior to this bill coming through. I just find it concerning that I keep hearing from the Minister these claims of consultation happening when submitters, across the board, have told us that they felt like they weren\u2019t included and had full participation in helping design this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI think the other comment in relation to her language is\u2014she talks about the disability community; singular, right? I would like to challenge and test with the Minister whether she accepts that there\u2019s no such thing as a monolithic \u201Cdisability community\u201D, which has led to a lot of the issues in the design of this bill, which is this kind of assumption that one organisation can provide a voice for a broad range of disabled people, which may not be part of it. That\u2019s my first question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe second one is just bringing it back to the purpose of the Act. One of the things that I wanted to get the Minister to outline was around the process that she intends to use in the design of secondary legislation. Yeah, we\u2019ve had a lot of back and forth about what should and shouldn\u2019t be in secondary legislation. I accept that the Minister has a view on what should be included in secondary legislation. I\u2019m interested to know whether she has already made decisions on the level of resourcing that will go into the adequate consultation and co-design with disabled people in the provisions that will be in the secondary legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFor example, I want to know whether she has considered around the fiscal implications and requirements that she would like to ensure are there to make sure that there\u2019s full participation from disabled peoples around what that secondary legislation should look like. What assurances can the Minister give us in relationship to how extensive the consultation will be in the design of secondary legislation? Has she learned from the errors of the design of this bill itself? Far and large, one of the key pieces of feedback we received in the Social Services and Community Committee was that there was no co-design, no adequate consultation, and that people felt aggrieved\u2014rightfully so\u2014because of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ECan she give us a guarantee that she and her Government will ensure that there is a co-design process in any secondary legislation processes; that it will not repeat the mistakes that were found in the design of this primary legislation, where disabled people, far and large, felt excluded? If she is going to take a co-design approach, can she guarantee us that she will not treat disabled people as monolithic and assume that perhaps, for example, consulting with a service provider will count as consulting with disabled people and users of those providers, who may not formally be part of those organisations or bodies that provide those services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also keen to understand, for example, what adequate consultation or co-design could look like in the makeup of secondary legislation. I say this quite seriously, because one of the key pieces of feedback, as well, that we received from disabled people throughout the submission process has been that not all disabled people feel represented by the feedback given from service providers\u2014and that\u2019s OK. Again, there\u2019s no kind of monolithic voice within disabled peoples. I want to understand what will she do to cost the resources\u2014whether she\u2019s already sought commitment from Cabinet on, for example, any sort of costs that could be incurred in the design of secondary legislation, so that disabled people listening to this debate can be reassured that the same mistakes of the design of this legislation won\u2019t be repeated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd2cabdaddcadadc408e698a718e66d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd2cabdaddcadadc408e698a718e66d0\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues) (09:33)\u003C/span\u003E: This is quite wide ranging and, if the House will allow, I will go further than the bill just to make some of the future expectations clearer. The first thing the member raises\u2014absolutely, disabled people have a wide range of needs and wide range of views. So when we talk about the \u201Cdisability community\u201D, absolutely; they don\u2019t all have the same opinion, they don\u2019t belong to the same organisations, and they don\u2019t all have the same views, which goes back to my comment before about the need to protect at all lengths the flexibility that we are trying to achieve with primary legislation and secondary legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAs I said before, the disability support services (DSS) team engaged in a significant consultation, with over 1,500 individuals coming to a variety of meetings over a 12- to 14-month period. They heard the same messages that I did around consistency, flexibility, transparency, simplicity, etc., which is why we have built those into solving some of those challenges with this legislation. I accept that, as a result of those sessions, it may not have been clear to people that the intent was to create legislation, but as one of the other members who has asked a question before has stated, previous Governments have had the intention of legislating for DSS and providing a legislative framework. So it shouldn\u2019t have been a new concept. I accept that the link between the consultation and the need for legislation wasn\u2019t made clear enough, but I can say both the ministry and myself have not just met disability organisations and service providers. We have met with disabled people. There have been open forums for people to participate. There have been discussions with providers, as well as discussions with the Disabled People\u2019s Organisation as the formal mechanism for consultation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe other thing the member asked about was the consultation envisaged around support programmes. One of the improvements in the bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc6bc45f613eece9b6cce0d4f69c3b8a\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Secondary legislation, more properly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229db816aaa1c2b9e15195d8c9566e46d4\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, secondary legislation support programmes. I\u2019m trying to explain to people who are listening, and I will give a further example of that in a minute, if the member would like me to. One of the improvements that was made in the select committee was the extension from three years to five for the support programmes to be put in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy intention would be to draft a discussion document that would go out next year that would then lay out the areas these support programmes would be created in, and to allow feedback from disabled people and organisations and providers to then assist in the prioritisation of those support programmes. As I\u2019ve said, only two are at the top of my list: one is around flexible funding and the other is around carer support package. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELet me use the carer support package as an example. There have been high-level conversations so far. A formal process will kick off with carers\u2019 organisations and disabled people about what a carer support package would look like to then make decisions that would then be formalised and consulted on through the support programme. I do want to reassure the House, and I do want to reassure disabled people and their families that that is what is intended as the next stage. I would envisage that that would also then mean a second bill, which adds some more of the detail and also picks up some of the concerns that were raised in this bill around complaints, around reviews, and around safeguarding, which is a parallel piece of work in response to the royal commission of inquiry into abuse in State care. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232632704a2594ee1b96e617d06beae80\u0022 data-id=\u0022925a8f0972e0908d76de41cd69d88ae9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232632704a2594ee1b96e617d06beae80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022925a8f0972e0908d76de41cd69d88ae9\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert) (09:38)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to ask the Minister about the implications of the purpose clause, clause 3(b)(i). That talks about the response to the decision of the Supreme Court in \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EFleming v Attorney-General\u003C/span\u003E, and it claims that what this bill does is clarifies the nature of the relationship. Also, in this contribution, I am going to be talking about and asking questions about paragraph (c) of that same clause, which is that one of the purposes of the legislation is to \u201Cmitigate litigation risk, and related financial risk, to the Crown\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy questions are about a case that was hard fought, and it went all the way to the Supreme Court. My understanding of that case was that it clarified that people looking after their disabled relatives do have implied contracts and that overnight care counts as work. When they are doing that work, it is something that we must actually attribute to financially, and that there is a human rights alignment in this interpretation of the Supreme Court that is directly aligned with the purposes of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThose are heavy and weighty things that the Supreme Court has done and they are not in alignment with this piece of legislation, and so the first question I\u2019ve got for the Minister is: does she agree that they are not in alignment and that the Supreme Court has gone in a completely different way on this? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETo suggest that this law clarifies the nature of that relationship is simply wrong. It doesn\u2019t clarify it. We need to be honest about what\u2019s happening here. We are deciding what the nature of the relationship is, and we are not deciding it in alignment with the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities and we\u2019re not deciding it in alignment with what the Supreme Court says would make sense in terms of our employment law. We have things like a minimum code, we have minimum rates of pay and leave entitlements, and we have a definition of work which covers home-care workers, and none of that is in alignment with what we\u2019re doing here. So does the Minister accept that this is not a clarification of such things? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThen I want to ask about that purpose clause, at clause 3(c), in relation to this particular point. It says that the purpose of this legislation is to \u201Cmitigate litigation risk, and [the financial] risk, to the Crown.\u201D, and so what I want know here is what the litigation risk was. There were a whole lot of people, as I understand it, who were told that they would be able to take a case based on their circumstances and the work that they were doing in the home, and this bill stops them in their tracks and denies them financially. What is the risk to families\u2014and I ask whether the Minister had advice on what that meant to other families looking after their disabled relatives\u2014and what is that related financial risk to the Crown? I\u2019d really appreciate hearing some really specific answers\u2014what were we looking at? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESometimes we make law because we simply cannot afford the alternative, but I would like to know what that was, because what I\u2019ve heard is the Minister stand up and say that we are doing this to create a framework and that it is a neutral thing. We are trying to shore up something that\u2019s been a bit floating, and there have been some advantages to that process, from what I\u2019ve heard the Minister just say, because we can be bespoke. We are doing this to create a framework which always should have been there, and that\u2019s a neutral thing and we\u2019re not taking away anything\u2014but we are, aren\u2019t we? We\u2019re taking away potential claims by litigants that are hefty in their financial weight and that would make a big difference to families who have presumably paid a huge financial cost in their pursuit of looking after their relatives. So I\u2019d really like an answer about that financial risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI also would like to know about the undermining of trust here. We\u2019ve heard a lot from my colleagues formerly about the consultation and how that rattled people, but stopping people in their tracks when they are in the midst of litigation and when they\u2019re pursuing their rights also causes issues with trust, and these are people who work really hard. They do jobs I don\u2019t want to do myself. I am lucky enough to be able to be here because I don\u2019t have that kind of responsibility at the present time, but it could happen to any of us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat does she say to the issue about the trust of those people and could she please explain whether she got any advice on that, or whether she acknowledges that, in fact, for people, this will have contributed to the kind of emotional submission we got in our listening to the submissions, and I did listen to those submissions. We had people who were howling\u2014they were crying in the corridor. So can she talk about that trust issue and about whether she got any advice on it, either before she made the decision she made or during that process? Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u0022f04f0d055da67feb65d85c953e54fda9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f04f0d055da67feb65d85c953e54fda9\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues) (09:44)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not going to go over territory that I\u2019ve already covered around the purpose, but I do want to just reiterate that in terms of the savings of cases that have been settled or determined, that is taken care of in this legislation. Any that haven\u2019t entered that process, obviously, won\u2019t be able to or have not been concluded. As I\u2019ve said before, there was never an intention that the Ministry of Social Development would be the employer of family carers, nor that the courts would set employment terms and conditions for individuals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226f607d4079164946af0eb589f5753d1b\u0022 data-id=\u00226e15f14541b7cbd5afb99b67e3874cf7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f607d4079164946af0eb589f5753d1b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e15f14541b7cbd5afb99b67e3874cf7\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour) (09:45)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I am rising merely to put something on the record in terms of our position relating to Crown Law\u2019s advice on the bill, and I do have a question for the Minister for Disability Issues connected to that, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOne of the rights that Crown Law was concerned about was the procedural right in section 27(3) of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, which relates to every person\u2019s right to bring civil proceedings and to defend those proceedings. The Attorney-General in this case didn\u2019t issue a section 7 report indicating that in his view, there was a breach of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. Instead, what was made public was Crown Law\u2019s advice that found that while there were prima facie rights issues, both in relation to discrimination and also procedurally, those were justified. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy reading of the Crown Law advice is that there are two flaws in the assessment, particularly relating to the section 27 advice. Firstly, there is no pure assessment of the retrospective application of the bill and how that affects those procedural rights. I would have expected that to be assessed as part of whether it was or wasn\u2019t considered reasonable under the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe second issue is that within paragraph 38 of the advice, there\u2019s a comparison with section 70E of the New Zealand Public Health and Disability Act 2013. That was a previous bill that had a broader bar, as it also barred future litigation. My view is that the assessment that needs to be made under section 5 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act\u2014so whether it is reasonable or not\u2014is an assessment against the current circumstances and the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act itself. It\u2019s not a matter of saying that because this bill is, effectively, less worse than the 2013 bill, it therefore meets the threshold of being reasonable. I think that the methodology, or the logic, of that reasoning is flawed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to put this on the record because I think there\u2019s an irony that the intention is partially to mitigate future litigation when, to my mind, this invites public law litigation and, potentially, an application for a declaration of inconsistency. I\u2019ve called bills like this boomerang bills in the past because I expect that the House may well see them returned to the House, should a declaration of inconsistency be found by the courts, and I suspect that should that case proceed, then that particular paragraph in terms of procedural rights would be raised. So this is an invitation, really, for the Minister to comment on her view of that justification of reasonableness and whether the appropriate comparator is the 2013 legislation\u2014the less worse comparator\u2014or whether the appropriate comparator is the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act itself. Thank you, Madam Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2b305d71d9d5418a050dd74fe935496\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2b305d71d9d5418a050dd74fe935496\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues) (09:49)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not going to challenge Crown Law advice, but I just will put on record for the House that the Attorney-General did do a consideration of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act and found that this bill is consistent with the rights and freedoms affirmed in the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act of 1990.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022 data-id=\u00224f6785cc3e36a350b1fc6001cc854c43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f6785cc3e36a350b1fc6001cc854c43\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green) (09:49)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m mindful that people may still have some calls on the purpose of the bill, but I just briefly wanted to move to paragraph (a)(i) and (ii) of the definition of \u201Cdisability support services\u201D in clause 4. But, again, other people may want to traverse stuff that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022060ed1b69ff75e14d26aca32cdf3573c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: No, that\u2019s fine. We\u2019ve sort of covered up to clause 3, and so it is time to move forward. So feel very comfortable to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a3f3862301c06c0c571d8c515b539f7\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I\u2019m not privy to new material that others may bring, but in my case, I just wanted to focus on the interpretation clause. In the definition of \u201Cdisability support services\u201D,  it talks about \u201Cgoods, services, and facilities\u2014(i) provided to disabled persons for their care or support or to contribute towards enabling them to live\u201D\u2014and this is the language I want to test\u2014\u201Ctheir everyday life;\u201D. It also says, in subparagraph (ii), \u201Cprovided for purposes related or incidental to the care or support of people with disabilities or to contribute towards enabling them to live their everyday life;\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI\u2019m really interested in understanding the Minister for Disability Issues\u2019 interpretation of the quality of life that this guarantees, because to live your everyday life could just be to be alive. It does not guarantee a full participation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cca1d478c5073580e3a144cd8c5dc8d4\u0022\u003EHon Priyanca Radhakrishnan\u003C/span\u003E: Or a good life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c53e6d0bbd230b838570355d801d3c5c\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: Or a good life\u2014that\u2019s right. Enabling Good Lives solves that, which disabled people have been telling us we should actually try and follow. I\u2019m genuinely curious, because the Minister talked about another piece of legislation, which she compared this to\u2014she wanted to avoid creating some of the issues\u2014which, of course, is the Social Security Act. For example, in the purposes and principles of the Social Security Act, there\u2019s language that permeates decision-making, which is to \u201Calleviate hardship\u201D. That is some of the language that is used. For example, that is often used to justify giving someone a $20 food grant as opposed to what people actually need to live well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhen I see language here that says \u201Clive their everyday life\u201D, it\u2019s deeply unclear what that means at a practical level and the test that will be applied to know whether the disability support services and/or secondary legislation that is designed alongside that actually supports disabled people to live good lives, to fully participate in their communities, as opposed to, for example, designing secondary legislation and the provision of services that simply keeps people alive but living miserable lives. There\u2019s nothing stopping, as far as I\u2019m aware, in terms of the language\u2014and I am not trifling with this issue, because I\u2019ve seen how that plays out when we design, in the Social Security Act, language that actually sets the bar extremely low. It does create conditions for front-line service managers to justify leaving people without enough to be well\u2014for example, someone needing to gain weight for a surgery, and therefore needing additional support for food, not being granted that because that\u2019s not what the interpretation of the Social Security Act is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m really concerned about the fact that we\u2019ve set the bar so low in the interpretation that it simply means \u201Cto live their everyday life\u201D. It\u2019s hard for me to know whether that means that the Minister is committed to ensuring that disabled people can live good lives and that they can fully participate in their communities. I am really interested to test with the Minister how she interprets the quality of life that is guaranteed to disabled people through disability support services in clause 4, paragraphs (a)(i) and (ii). I think this particularly matters. I know that when people end up testing this further\u2014in, say, the courts or through any reviews or through advocacy\u2014this language will, I think, be key, and it will be used time and time again to justify inadequate provision of services, because the Minister can just claim, \u201CWell, you know, they\u2019re alive. They\u2019re living their everyday life. They\u2019re still alive.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to understand what the bar is and the expectations of the quality of life that should be guaranteed to disabled people on disability support services, when the legislation just says \u201Cto live their everyday life\u201D. I am very serious about this, because I do think this has been one of the key things that has also come back from feedback from submitters. If the Minister is able to articulate what she means by that and the quality of life, that would be deeply useful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u00223f2dbf0fac738041d11dc3e16f63a99b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f2dbf0fac738041d11dc3e16f63a99b\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues) (09:54)\u003C/span\u003E: The bill does use the language of \u201Ceveryday life\u201D because it focuses on supporting people in the realities of their own lives, their own circumstances, and their aspirations. It comes back to what we talked about before: that there is maximum flexibility, an individual assessment of the disabled person\u2019s needs, and that\u2019s how it should be. It\u2019s also consistent with Enabling Good Lives (EGL) and mirrors the EGL principle of ordinary life outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022 data-id=\u0022315813909fe4e0a5d8c99a96811ffde1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022315813909fe4e0a5d8c99a96811ffde1\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour) (09:54)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. A couple of things, just to draw a line under the questions that I\u2019ve asked around primary versus secondary legislation, the sequencing of ministerial programmes, and so on and so forth, I\u2019d just make the point that I guess what we disagree with is the sequencing of it. And I\u2019ll leave it there. In terms of the consultation that the Minister for Disability Issues pointed to, I would just like on the record that what disabled people and carers have been saying to us is that that consultation was around what the Minister has called \u201Cstabilisation\u201D of disability support services and wasn\u2019t about the legislation. That\u2019s the issue that has been raised\u2014that feedback from that consultation for something different, related but different, has now been used for something else, and that is the issue that people have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI would like to ask the Minister a question around her response to my question around eligibility criteria. The Minister said that there is no eligibility criteria and that is why there is no definition or interpretation of it in this bill. However, when you go to the Disability Support Services (DSS) website, her own ministry\u2019s website, it basically tells you how to access support. It says, \u201CCheck if you\u2019re eligible for DSS funded support\u201D, and there is a whole list there of criteria that one must fulfil to be able to be eligible for any DSS support funding. I don\u2019t understand why the Minister said there is no criteria. Also, part of that criteria is a confirmation that one must have at least one of the following: physical disability, intellectual disability, sensory autism. Now, autism was introduced by a Cabinet minute in, I think it was, 2013 or something like that. That\u2019s partially what\u2019s led to an issue, because the Government at the time didn\u2019t increase funding to include this expansion of autism into the expanded disability criteria.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAll of that points to the fact that there is disability criteria. It was set back in 1996, and there have been changes through Cabinet minute. I would have thought that if the Minister\u2019s primary objective, as stated in documents supporting this bill, was to increase certainty and transparency, at least that level of criteria, eligibility, and so on, could have been in the primary legislation. I want to get a response from the Minister as to why she said there is no eligibility criteria, and, if there is criteria, why wasn\u2019t at least that bit that isn\u2019t changing in the primary legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got a couple of other questions to get into the details of the role of families and means testing, two areas that were raised time and again by submitters, and I have some specific questions around those two, but just before I move on from the foundational legislation design questions, I would like to know why the Minister decided to club the two together. There were, obviously, options in the regulatory impact statement to separate this into two pieces of legislation, one that responds to the Supreme Court ruling and then one that lays out disability support services funding. The Minister has decided to join the two together, which I personally think is unhelpful, but I would like to know from the Minister why she decided to go down that route rather than having two separate bills. Was it just easier or was there something else that underpinned that decision?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u00221b333d9735d27ea0f5ce0185ba09208c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b333d9735d27ea0f5ce0185ba09208c\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues) (09:58)\u003C/span\u003E: The first thing I want to clarify is the consultation that I referred to earlier with the 1,500 individuals that participated. That was not about stabilising; that was about strengthening. The first piece of work, in the first 12 months, was about stabilising. The consultation that took place that I referred to earlier was about strengthening, and the bill is the kind of foundations of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIn terms of eligibility, the member\u2019s reference to a Cabinet minute changing eligibility is exactly why we need primary legislation and secondary legislation, so it is clear. The fact that literally overnight something could change like that is, you know\u2014in that way it was the inclusion of autism. Imagine if it had been the exclusion of something that happened in the Cabinet minute. That would be horrendous. That would be absolutely horrendous. That is exactly what we are trying to prevent with this legislation. That\u2019s why it is important that there is greater clarity through primary legislation or secondary legislation, as I referred to, in terms of support programmes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca153e35a53e3468381e091b49b3ad23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca153e35a53e3468381e091b49b3ad23\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green) (09:59)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you so much. I just wanted to pick up on the response the Minister gave me in relation to clause 4 (a)(i) and (ii). Again, I cannot reiterate how important the language in this is. It\u2019s great to hear that the Minister interprets this clause as disabled people being able to meet their aspirations. I just want to put it on the record that I can see, now, that disabled people and their carers could test this with the Government in relation to not just living their everyday lives but being able to meet their aspirations. This is quite important, right? If disabled people want to challenge anything through the courts or any reviews, they can go back to the \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EHansard\u003C/span\u003E and also note that the Minister has interpreted \u201Clive their everyday lives\u201D as disabled people meeting their aspirations. That is really critical because we often do rely on, for example, the Minister\u2014or the Government of the day\u2014clarifying how they interpret these definitions of what the disability support services are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI wanted to give the Minister one more chance because, again, this language will likely be continuously tested, and if she has any other language that she would like to add on what an adequate everyday life looks like, that would be useful because this, again, is one of the key pieces of feedback we received\u2014that people just feel like the bar has been set so extremely low that they just don\u2019t feel like the services will be adequate if it\u2019s simply just there to keep you alive. Is there anything beyond \u201Cmeeting your aspirations\u201D that the Minister would like to add to her interpretation of this clause and that would give greater guidance to disabled people, carers, or, actually, decision makers, when it comes to funding, of what her interpretation is of this clause? Again, I cannot stress enough how much the language in this particular clause, clause 4, will end up mattering when it comes to the design and when it comes to discretionary decision-making and/or disabled people wanting to challenge any decision that is made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022 data-id=\u00228e4ba31a56ac4afb23c594dca9afdbab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e4ba31a56ac4afb23c594dca9afdbab\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour) (10:02)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair, I would like to ask some questions specifically around the role of families as defined in this legislation. The overarching concerns that have been raised were partially responded to by select committee recommendations and the changes made in this iteration of the legislation but not entirely. If I were to summarise submissions\u2014the few thousand submissions\u2014to select committee, most of them made mention of this point and the anxiety that people were feeling because of the role of families being codified into legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI will preface that by saying that I take the Minister\u2019s point that her intention is for this legislation to reflect the status quo and what currently happens, and that is that families, in the first instance, do contribute to the care and the wellbeing and the support of their disabled family members. I understand that. However, the collective outcome or result of the definition of \u201Cfamily\u201D in this bill\u2014that is in clause 4, under the \u201CInterpretation\u201D section\u2014under \u201Cfamily member\u201D, there is a long list. That\u2019s under 4\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2ea2a33c5f40d806279ca4868cb3d8f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, we can see those on page 4, We can see that list.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8b5ff2fd2cfadaef70066c47e89d817\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, on page 4. It\u2019s quite an extensive list. I\u2019m not going to read out the whole list; it\u2019s very extensive. It goes right from a person\u2019s spouse through to a person\u2019s first cousin and niece and so on. That, alongside the fact that, in a later part of the bill\u2014and I\u2019ll get to that in greater detail later\u2014that, initially, the wording in this bill led people to read it, quite rightly I feel, that families had to step in and support, in the first instance, right down to their first cousin, the disabled person before funded support by the State would kick in. That is also then further compounded by wording in this legislation that states, quite clearly, that Government-funded support is contributory. All of those were then read by disabled people\u2014again, I think, quite rightly, because that was the letter of the legislation being passed\u2014to mean that a disabled person has had to exhaust all of those various avenues of family support before they could then get disability support services (DSS) funding, which is a massive shift from what currently happens. The Minister has said that that is not the intention of this legislation, but the question that I would like to ask\u2014select committee could only get a few changes across the line, in terms of softening that language a little bit, to basically state that that was not the case but that families do have a role to play and that it\u2019s contributory to State-funded supports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe discomfort for me and for many disabled people here is that the legislation still doesn\u2019t have wording in it that gives them a clear guarantee that family support is complementary to DSS-funded support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cde6f2cce8a5b56a58b36bbed3393a4c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s transitioning into Part 2 at this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226bca5e8a356e75adbc3d92787b878f0\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, that\u2019s a good point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022face3d515d3264077ebf39c58a08894b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: In Part 1, we just have the list.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2d2a72f07d7c2abdf08f4b03586be9c\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, true. All right. I will save the substantive bit of this question for when we get into Part 2, but perhaps the Minister could clarify why the list in the definition of \u201Cfamily member\u201D, in the first part of this bill, is quite that extensive? Does it have to be detailed so that these family members can be paid, as in part (b) of the \u201Cpaid family carer\u201D definition in that same section? Or were there different ways to give disabled people some comfort that they didn\u2019t have to rely on their first cousin before they could get support?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022 data-id=\u0022489f77647b6cf23e9f9b8655dbd0928f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022489f77647b6cf23e9f9b8655dbd0928f\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green) (10:06)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you so much. Further to that\u2014and please stop me, Madam Chair, if I\u2019m approaching into Part 2 territory\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e904d7287da2ab213948975196f64945\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022916e2fe469a2357295084b86c0e32b79\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014because that\u2019s not my intention. Just following on the family member matter, can the Minister clarify whether she intends for the list of family members, outlined on page 4, to be treated as a resource as well?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETo the previous speaker\u2019s point, the issue around whether\u2014and I kind of take a different angle here around whether they should be treated as resource when it comes to definition, because, then, a resource is then treated, subsequently, as something that gets measured against for eligibility criteria. Is that her intention? Submitters often talked about the need to take a rights-based approach when it comes to funding decisions. People don\u2019t see family members as something that should get in the way of having a rights-based approach. I\u2019m interested to know whether that list is also intended to provide decision makers with a list of the kind of people that would be treated as a resource, as per the clause we were discussing earlier, for the design of secondary legislation. When it comes to the eligibility criteria that will be set out in secondary legislation, can she guarantee to us that the list of people included in this definition will not be treated as a resource for the purposes of the design of secondary legislation as per the previous clause? I think that\u2019s really important because that was, again, like I said, a really key theme that came through disabled people who want to see a rights-based approach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESecondly, when it comes to the \u201Cpaid family carer\u201D definition, I just wanted to take the opportunity to understand whether the Minister intends to do further work on ensuring that paid family carers are supported in a way that keeps up to pace with other improvements in employment policy, or whether part of the reason why there\u2019s that sort of cutting off of further litigation is to prevent paid family carers from being able to further their rights and other means. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u002288fa1a7da34270b090de78f652c5ff67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288fa1a7da34270b090de78f652c5ff67\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues) (10:09)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m conscious I\u2019ve strayed outside the bill, so I will keep it very tight now. I know that members have questions about Part 2, and I\u2019ll address them then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn terms of the questions around a \u201Cfamily member\u201D, the definition and the list is to enable payment for them under a support programme, and recognition that for disabled people, the need to have choice around who they might choose to be a carer and, therefore, supported through payment under the support programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat Part 1 be agreed to\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 2; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222c23ccc5afb2decf2b8223413bd21bfa\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u00224035c0125c2caf489ecceecaa9f08543\u0022\u003EPart 2 Disability support services system\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a33743867e59a3464f04f9c65f636614\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 7 to 16, \u201CDisability support services system\u201D. The question is that Part\u00A02 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022 data-id=\u002289e6db1a137a3404d82728837365b67a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289e6db1a137a3404d82728837365b67a\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour) (10:11)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I will now get into the question that I asked previously around family care. I won\u2019t traverse all of the detail. The Minister said she\u2019s read some submissions. I\u2019m sure she\u2019s heard loud and clear what the concerns are that many submitters have raised. It\u2019s basically that family circumstances are very varied depending on where one lives; proximity to other family members; abuse that can also take place and that disabled people are more susceptible to, as evidence shows; relationship breakdown; and carer health needs. All of those things have been shared by disabled people, organisations, and carers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI guess that the question is twofold; one is: why does it even need to be in the legislation? If the State\u2019s view is that families need to step in and need to provide care to disabled people and, therefore, that the State\u2019s contribution is contributory\u2014it\u2019s only part of the support and the care\u2014families already do this. This has been raised by many people. Families, by and large, if they can support their disabled family member, will do so. Why does the State need to legislate for it? Why does it even need to be in this legislation? That is my first question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy second question is: if it needs to be legislated for to fully represent the status quo, then will the Minister consider an amendment that clarifies and provides disabled people and carers with a guarantee that family care and support will be complementary to State-funded support? There is then no shadow of a doubt that disabled people will need to exhaust their family\u2019s ability to care for them before they can get the support that they need from the State to be able to live with dignity and independence, which is at the heart of the Enabling Good Lives vision and principles. I\u2019ll leave it there for now, but I\u2019ve got a couple more questions around this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u00223dd85c3a4ed3108ce160dc47b9d9a75c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223dd85c3a4ed3108ce160dc47b9d9a75c\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues) (10:13)\u003C/span\u003E: I want to just put on record the considerable concern and alarm that the wording in the bill, as drafted, created, and I apologise for that. There was never any intention for the role of families to be expanded from what occurred. I just want to put on record my thanks to the submitters and to the Social Services and Community Committee for coming up with wording that better reflects what happens in the current state. The member asked about whether or not it needed to be included at all, but, because this is describing the current state, it does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s also worth recognising that many of the organisations that were involved recognised that the change to the language around families\u2019 responsibilities\u2014where it says, \u201Cresponsibility in the first instance\u201D, replaced with \u201Ca responsibility to contribute to\u201D\u2014and recognises that it\u2019s \u201Cas well as\u201D instead of \u201Cinstead of\u201D. There\u2019s not an expectation that families exhaust their resources first. That was never the intention. As the member raised in her comments before, in some circumstances, family support isn\u2019t available, or, actually, it\u2019s not appropriate, and it\u2019s not safe. That\u2019s why I think the language that we have in the bill, now, better reflects what the current state is and recognises that family do have an important role, but it is alongside disability support services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022 data-id=\u0022d69b81a5f98778dd0cf56e40659e5b4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d69b81a5f98778dd0cf56e40659e5b4f\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green) (10:15)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you so much, Madam Chair. On Part 2, clause 8(2), I wanted to also focus on the language around \u201Cfamily, wh\u0101nau, and other culturally recognised family groups\u201D. One thing that she did not address in my previous contribution in Part 1\u2014but I think it actually is quite suited to be debated in here, as well, and I just want to repeat it because I didn\u2019t get engagement\u2014is whether she intends for the provisions in here to, then, if families are deemed to have responsibility for the wellbeing of their members\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ff91f769d4b04d3d1381707894fcf20\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry to interrupt the member, but to my right, there are a lot of conversations going on, and I hope that the Minister can hear the questions because I\u2019m actually struggling a little bit to hear them myself due to the conversations. If you want to have a conversation, go in the lobby.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022146a6f61f35f8e08d871e3169a24b387\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: Maybe they have some questions for the Minister, too\u2014I don\u2019t know. Look, I just wanted to test with the Minister whether that responsibility will be translated, or is it her intention for that responsibility to be translated as family members treated as a resource for the purposes of eligibility of those very same services? This is key to have engagement, in answer, from the Minister on because, as I said, submitters have often talked about the needs for a rights-based approach. In the moment that you treat the responsibility of family members as a resource for the purposes of eligibility criteria, you create the conditions where care stepping in actually undermines disabled people\u2019s ability to access some of those disability support services. That is exactly what we want to prevent and I want to prevent and the Greens want to prevent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA rights-based approach should not then deem family members stepping in, because they want to, as a negative for purposes of any eligibility criteria. I just want to have stated by the Minister what her intention is on how those family members stepping in is going to be treated in that secondary legislation. The other sort of unintended consequence, if the Minister does treat family members stepping in as a resource, is that if that then prevents people from accessing other types of disability support services, you could see what you see in the welfare system, which is that families feel like they have to almost try and present a breakdown in the family for the simple purposes of accessing support. I don\u2019t think that honours the care and the interdependence that people have to one another, the interdependence that family members have to disabled people they care for, and the interdependence that disabled people have with their families as well. That\u2019s my first question, that has not been addressed, and I think it\u2019s really, really key.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI go back, now, to page 6. This is clause 8(2)(b)(ii) around the language of a \u201Cperson\u2019s safety and dignity\u201D. Now, I was quite interested in the language around dignity. I\u2019ve always talked about how we should treat everybody with respect and dignity, but one thing that I note is missing is full participation. Again, this is language that really matters because full participation means, for example, that a disabled person isn\u2019t just supported to stay alive or to live with dignity, but full participation means they could be resourced to participate in, for example, going to the movies, which sounds trivial, right? But it is actually that enablement of fully participating in the communities that they are part of. That includes recreation, which people should have a right to access as well. Can I test with the Minister whether the choice of the word \u201Cdignity\u201D, on page 6, includes, for example, access to full participation in the communities through recreational activities to the things that just make someone feel like they\u2019re fully part of the physical spaces and relationships that they want to be part of and belong to, and, if not, does she think that the omission of language around full participation is an unfortunate omission? I just wanted to test how she interprets the term \u201Cdignity\u201D for the purposes of, for example, the design of secondary legislation when it comes to eligibility criteria. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u00225fa8cf9e47da8bd6b2bb467df86d29e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225fa8cf9e47da8bd6b2bb467df86d29e9\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues) (10:20)\u003C/span\u003E: We addressed some of the member\u2019s questions, or intent behind the questions, in answering in relation to everyday life. In terms of that particular statement around an eligible person\u2019s safety and dignity, I did touch on that in my answer to the previous speaker\u2019s question\u2014that, yes, it is a contribution, yes families are considered, but there will be some circumstances, for a range of reasons, where a disabled person doesn\u2019t want to have the support of their family, or it\u2019s not safe for them to have the support of a family member, which is where the individual circumstances of the disabled person are paramount. That won\u2019t change under this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6071b2e74cf4eb6b71d3c83d3ae596a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6071b2e74cf4eb6b71d3c83d3ae596a\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour) (10:21)\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the Minister has said that this needs to be reflected in the legislation because it reflects what\u2019s currently happening, would the Minister then consider amendments to change the wording from \u201Cobligation to contribute\u201D, in a sense, to reflect that that is what families currently do\u2014that many families, as and when they can, already contribute to the care and support of the disabled person. Also, I point to particularly the submission by Enabling Good Lives (EGL) MidCentral, where they\u2019ve said that ideally what this legislation should do is reflect the intent\u2014so not just the language, because the select committee has made changes to include the language of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities and the EGL, but to go beyond that: to include the intent of the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, and to say that this is an obligation, or that it\u2019s an option that families already do this, and many, when they can go well beyond, will do so. But as the Minister has said, in certain cases where there are issues around safety, that is not an obligation there. Can the legislation be a bit more explicit about this and the fact that family support is complementary and not assumed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231fb5cce76e9d08f9ae7466ba18050fe\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Does the member want to refer to her tabled amendment on this issue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222585dcf4f176b18a1e554d5ff46ee8af\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I think my tabled amendment is currently on its way, on this issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220888dcbb3b2e270b900bb670cf2bc6f2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: No, we have it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022daf01be9c5dfeccb68946a5fcf30c3aa\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, do you have it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b927431e9f40290bbd0bdd0c9f49bdb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff55d1d2aa97e6d9b027d3ccc3f97661\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN\u003C/span\u003E: OK. I would like to refer to my tabled amendment that I do not have in front of me, but thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022538b5e25c35e3399b998333adbcc40d1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, is has been tabled, so perhaps one of your team could go and get you a copy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a162be58aeec41eff409c23c43072da\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, yes. I have got a copy now. That is, in essence, the crux of the amendment: to ensure that care is complementary and not\u2014[\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003Eturns to Hon Jo Luxton\u003C/span\u003E] Can you find my actual amendment, please. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe other question that I\u2019ll ask in the meantime is specifically related to clause 8(2)(b)(iv), and that is around families, wh\u0101nau, and other culturally recognised family groups, where appropriate, having the responsibility to contribute. There\u2019s a bit in subparagraph (iv) that says, \u201Cwhere appropriate, the eligible person\u2019s resources;\u201D. This is, basically, what Needs Assessment and Service Coordination (NASC) and others have to take into account when determining the families\u2019 contribution. What is being raised by NASC and others is who determines appropriateness, and how is appropriateness determined? That is the worry that many others have raised as well: that the disabled person may not consider their family support to be appropriate to them, but that the decision maker in this equation might. So then who makes the ultimate decision there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI do point to the changes in terms of including the choice of preference of the eligible person when it comes to determining the provision of disability support services support, and that was a good change that the select committee has made, and a meaningful one, and also to include the eligible person\u2019s safety and dignity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat then takes me to the other point. The Minister said that details around safeguarding complaints mechanisms and appeals processes will come in later legislation. But the decision not to include those provisions or those guardrails in this legislation is what has led to a lot of the anxiety as well. So it\u2019s not just the language, which, you know, is partially changed, in the situation of the bill, but it\u2019s the lack of safeguarding as well. So can the Minister clarify her decision not to include those when this piece of legislation makes it so clear that families have a role to play to contribute to the care. So saying that the safety of an individual will be taken into account is different from having mechanisms to enable that to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u0022993b16188e19bf1637d0d94333cad51a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022993b16188e19bf1637d0d94333cad51a\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues) (10:26)\u003C/span\u003E: I want to clarify in terms of this legislation covering the current state. There are currently complaints reviews and safeguarding that already occur. I don\u2019t want anyone to think that they don\u2019t occur, but in terms of this particular bill, we have kept the scope of it narrow, and my expectation is, particularly around safeguarding with the work that\u2019s going on in parallel with the royal commission into abuse in State care, that there will be further improvements to what the current state is, which would be captured in the second piece of legislation. I hope that clarifies it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e652a5b0701568c7678d8004c4f838ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e652a5b0701568c7678d8004c4f838ab\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green) (10:26)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair, and, again, I\u2019m mindful that the member who spoke prior to me may have questions on clauses 9 and 10. I just wanted to talk about clause 11, and particularly I want the Minister\u2019s commitments on how she intends to use the existing income-based and asset-based criteria. One of the things that people have raised concerns about is whether there are further or additional limitations to it. But I wanted to, first of all, just test whether the Minister believes in a rights-based approach, because income-based or asset-based criteria goes against that. So I wanted to just test whether she interprets the approved disability support services programme criteria that may be specified to be taking a rights-based approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESecondly, on the income-based criteria, I wanted to just test whether the income and asset base that could be used for any eligibility requirements would be just the disabled person\u2019s income and asset base or whether any family member\u2019s income and assets could also be included, in the way that the legislation is written. Again, it\u2019s not just the family members that do the care work and could be treated as a resource that I\u2019m concerned about; it\u2019s the family member\u2019s income and asset base, that could also be treated as a resource for eligibility criteria, that I am worried about. So I just wanted to check with the Minister how she interprets that to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI wanted to ask her on clause 11(3)(ga), which states \u201Celigibility for an entitlement card issued under\u2014(i) regulations made under section 437 of the Social Security Act 2018; or regulations saved as if they were made under section 437 of the Social Security Act 2018;\u201D\u2014a community services card, for the right person. I wanted to get a sense of why this was added. You know, we were reassured that no additional limitations would be put in, but we\u2019ve got this additional bit that clearly spells out additional limitations that could be put on to the criteria that may be specified. This seems contrary to the reassurances that we\u2019ve been given. I mean, this is one of the key criticisms that has come from disability justice advocates across the country, when the Minister came out after the select committee stage trying to reassure us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI will just wait for the whip and the Minister to stop talking\u2014I\u2019ll just pause for a second. OK, cool; I\u2019ll resume.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe issue I have here is that the language in clause 11(3)(ga) seems to hint at a new criteria that could be applied to the provision of services. How is that consistent with the comment that she made post the select committee process? I have heard a disability advocate question whether her comments after the select committee were actually factually correct when those provisions are still in place. So I wanted to test whether they\u2019re correct in their assessment of her follow-up comments on concerns on further restrictions to access. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETo recap\u2014and I know we have a new presiding officer in the Chair\u2014I\u2019m really interested in the income and asset testing and whether that could be expanded to the income and asset base of family members as well. Does the Minister have any hints around, for example, how broad in range the income and asset base criteria that are specified here will be? I know that she said that she does not intend to further those, but I\u2019m just curious as to at least as the legislation is written, what a future Minister is able to do with these provisions. This bill will endure with her as Minister but I want to know what she thinks a future Minister could do with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u00220fd7e314039f0dca73ed960454a7e730\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fd7e314039f0dca73ed960454a7e730\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues) (10:31)\u003C/span\u003E: As I have said previously, this is just documenting the current state in terms of means testing. There are a limited number of programmes that are related to, for example, the community services card, so that doesn\u2019t change. In terms of what a future Minister may or may not do, that\u2019s a different matter that I can\u2019t crystal-ball into, but I have said on the record, and will say again, that there is no intention for me as Minister to introduce or change anything related to means testing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022 data-id=\u002227fe50749ce096145f603c05f4dcf8f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227fe50749ce096145f603c05f4dcf8f4\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green) (10:32)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. That\u2019s exactly what I want to get into, because why would she create legislation that still allows for a future Minister to further restrict access to disability support services? You know, all it takes is a Cabinet reshuffle after another leadership challenge for a future Minister to be in her place and do exactly what she said she wouldn\u2019t do\u2014like, literally the way the bill is written does not guarantee disabled people that no further restrictions will be added. So why would she not have clarified that no further restrictions will be made in primary legislation? Why does she not add those safeguards in primary legislation, not just have disabled people have to take this current Minister at her word but actually safeguard any future Government from being able to add additional restrictions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPerhaps if their coalition partner gets to secure her ministry in the next term, what is to say that they may not want to add further restrictions into this? Does she accept at least that the way that the bill is written does leave it really open for a future Minister to cause harm to disabled people by restricting access to services by tweaking and changing the income and asset base criteria?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EDoes she accept the concerns that have been raised by submitters and by advocacy groups that the way that the bill is written leaves disabled people and carers very open to a future Government choosing to harm and actively restrict access to disability support services? I just want her to at least be able to be upfront not just about her intentions but that a bill cannot just stand on the current measures and intentions; the bill has to stand the test of time when it comes to the protections that are afforded to groups that have had to fight for their rights in the courts and in the streets and in Parliament. So, again, does she accept that a future Minister could just, because of the way she\u2019s written the bill, further restrict access to disability support services; and if so, why did she not deem that primary legislation would be a better place to actually add further safeguards?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI know the Minister has talked about engagement with some of my previous comments but the one that I haven\u2019t had engagement with\u2014and I will just reiterate that I\u2019m really interested in having a bit of engagement on it\u2014is whether family members will be treated as a resource. That is a simple question I\u2019m asking for engagement on\u2014whether they will be treated as a resource for the purpose of eligibility criteria.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u0022f021699d5ec6f10a31cb952492aee8cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f021699d5ec6f10a31cb952492aee8cd\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues) (10:34)\u003C/span\u003E: The irony in the member\u2019s question is that yesterday or the day before, for years in the past Ministers have been able to make decisions at a whim. So by the time we have this piece of legislation and support programmes in place, that will be consulted on with disabled people and the communities and families. Those support programmes will ensure that changes can\u2019t happen quickly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThat period, admittedly, we\u2019ve now extended from three years to five years to enable the support programmes to be established, and my expectation is that with a discussion document early next year, disabled people and organisations and carers will signal where the priorities are for those support programmes to be established. This does not change anything around means testing. It simply states that they exist already in a very limited number of occasions and it would not have been accurate in describing the current state in the legislation if that had been ignored.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad3ffe31d4ec71cfca30ff07b7b035d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad3ffe31d4ec71cfca30ff07b7b035d7\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green) (10:36)\u003C/span\u003E: Following up on that exchange, the Minister often talks about not changing things that are already there, but isn\u2019t part of the issue that we\u2019re finding ourselves in that disabled people have talked about how the status quo isn\u2019t good enough? So when she says, \u201CHey, look, we\u2019re not changing anything.\u201D, does she concede that that speaks volumes of the fact that inadequate consultation with and input from disabled people has been taken on board when it comes to the fact that even the current income and asset base criteria doesn\u2019t adequately uphold the dignity of disabled people. So I just wanted to test whether the Minister actually thinks that the current settings, including lack of safeguards that have already presently existed, are fit for purpose. I think that just saying\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222675360b1a5851eac902723206b8f363\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re discussing this bill. Which clause are you speaking to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215d6be83a1b87b8147959d392985066d\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: Clause 11(3)(f) and (g), and (ga) specifically\u2014just following up on the Minister\u2019s answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe key thing that I want to test with the Minister is that she is saying she\u2019s not changing anything. Does she think that the current settings, then, actually reflect the voices and the feedback of disabled people or is she just simply conceding to the fact that not changing anything just means that things are well and fine and no one needs to worry about them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI will move on to clause 11(4) which is about the things that the Minister is required to do before approving and establishing a programme and the fact that the Minister needs to take into account the purpose of the disability support services and the likely outcomes for disabled people of approving and establishing that programme, and any other matters that the Minister considers relevant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI have a series of questions on this one. For the purpose of interpreting how the Minister will likely execute these provisions in the bill, would the Minister outline some examples of any other matters that the Minister may consider to be relevant? Has the Minister already thought of matters that have previously been considered or that she intends to consider? The second question I have is, when it comes to the likely outcomes for disabled people of approving and establishing the programme, how will those outcomes be measured? Will it be through extensive engagement and co-design with disabled people and carers? Will it be just through sort of consulting Government officials? And what happens if inadequate engagement has happened for the likely outcomes for disabled people? This takes me to clause (4A), which says, \u201Cthe Minister must also consult such representatives of disabled persons as the Minister considers appropriate.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m keen to understand\u2014and I know there\u2019s been a lot of questions and I am happy to traverse further engagement if the Minister\u2019s not capturing it. What does the Minister consider to be an appropriate level of consultation as per clause 11(4A)? If there hasn\u2019t been adequate consultation should any programme be approved\u2014because that is one of the key things that disabled people have noted\u2014that there are no protections that safeguard disabled people from a programme that disabled people may deem inadequate from being rolled out despite these requirements being in place. There\u2019s no sort of, like, that you \u201Cmust\u201D have adequate consultation. It kind of just leaves it to the Minister. So, you know, it would be useful at least for the Minister to clarify what in her view \u201Cappropriate\u201D, as per (4A), looks like in practice, so that maybe disabled people have a bit of reassurance of how much resourcing will go into ensuring that there\u2019s a \u201Ccode assigned\u201D process with disabled people, or whether she thinks that maybe talking to one service provider will be enough to be deemed appropriate consultation over 4A in clause 11. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m really interested, and I will have some further engagements on this, because I know that this has been one of the key pieces of feedback that has come\u2014particularly post our comments after the Social Services and Community Committee stage, around disabled people\u2019s feelings of sort of inadequate safeguards on consultation. And also, that sort of retraumatising process and feeling of the errors of the bill process being then mirrored in the rolling out of these programmes, because of that lack of faith that disabled people currently have with the way that the\u2014well, what I would say is with the Minister and the Government, due to the legislative process and the lack of faith therefore being extended to how particularly close 11(4A) will be rolling out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u00220a6abfe499bf01afe3c815771c13b2e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a6abfe499bf01afe3c815771c13b2e0\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues) (10:41)\u003C/span\u003E: I did traverse some of this area in the earlier part, which I acknowledged at the time went beyond the bill to explain the process that would go beyond this. The example that I used at the time was in terms of consultation; if the support programme was around hearing devices, for example, the consultation and the organisations and the representatives of disabled persons that would be considered appropriate would be very different for a support programme around hearing devices as it would be around residential care. So that is what is intended there. It is important that disabled people directly\u2014as well as disabled people\u2019s organisations, as well as those who provide services\u2014are involved in that process. As the member himself raised in an earlier part of the debate, the disability community is not an amorphous group and they don\u2019t have the same views or agreements. That\u2019s why the consultation here will be important, but it won\u2019t be the same for every support programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022 data-id=\u002206c7228c18804817ee6fc1f317608673\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206c7228c18804817ee6fc1f317608673\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour) (10:42)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve got a few more questions that are related to clause 8 and the various things that Needs Assessment Service Coordination agencies (NASCs), for example, will need to take into account when making decisions around who gets Disability Support Services (DSS). My first question is related to clause 8(2)(b): \u201Cdecisions about the provision of DSS-funded disability support services to an eligible person should be made taking into account\u2014\u201D all of the rest of the things that are laid out underneath it. I want to ask the Minister for Disability Issues why the wording there is \u201Ctaking into account\u201D, which to me is rather vague and not as strong as it could be, for example. I\u2019d like to refer to my tabled amendment that recommends or suggests changing that to \u201Cgive effect to\u201D, which is stronger legal language. So that\u2019s the first part of my question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe second is related to clause 8(2)(b)(iii), and that is that people who are making these decisions around DSS access, or eligibility to support funding there, must take into account \u201Cthe eligible person\u2019s immediate, and long-term, needs and circumstances;\u201D. I\u2019d like to know what definitions would be used around that; what are the parameters that must be considered around the immediate and long-term needs, what circumstances will be in versus what will be out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAnd then going down to clause 8(2)(b)(iv), \u201Cwhere appropriate, the eligible person\u2019s resources;\u201D\u2014is that related to income and assets that the eligible person may hold? If not, what is the thinking behind including \u201Celigible person\u2019s resources\u201D in there, and what does that actually mean?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe next part of that, clause 8(2)(b)(v), \u201Cany support that is available to the eligible person from other publicly funded sources;\u201D given that the whole point previously of Disability Support Services transformation towards an Enabling Good Lives (EGL)\u2014and the Minister made a comment earlier on that she had heard from the disability communities that various different assessment tools, allocation tools, and decisions were being made around the country, where one disabled person in one part of the country would get more support than somebody else, and that\u2019s why she\u2019s brought in the assessment and allocation tools, to bring in consistency and this legislation is the next part of that work. I would put to the Minister that that has lowered, potentially, the access or the types of services that disabled people can access. Because what we were trying to do was to transform the other way around, towards the EGL sites and the ways in which funding was disseminated by EGL sites. Instead, everything\u2019s been brought back to how NASCs, previously, were doing things. So I would put that to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBut the other issue that\u2019s been raised around this is: when the changes were made back\u2014some of the subsequent changes to the initial ones made in March 2024, where, for example, children and schools couldn\u2019t use their DSS funding for things like writing for the disabled, because the Government\u2019s view at that point, the Minister\u2019s view at the time, was that education should be funding that, not DSS. Whereas previously\u2014and the transformation of the moves that we were wanting to make in the previous Government was that the person was central to the types of services and support that they could access. That is, in essence, the EGL vision. This legislation just imports some EGL language, but not the intent or the vision of the Enabling Good Lives approach. So is that what is now being captured in legislation in clause 8(2)(b)(v), Minister, where if there\u2019s support that comes out of the education pot, or the transport pot, or the housing pot, this will be\u2014my fear, and the fear of many, is that this will lead to the further fragmentation of the type of support that disabled people can get and not a better, more cohesive package of money that actually transforms a person\u2019s life and makes it better. So I\u2019ll leave my questions there for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u0022dee8de859507b0f9b66c75334d6897df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dee8de859507b0f9b66c75334d6897df\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues) (10:47)\u003C/span\u003E: I keep getting into trouble with going further than outside the bill, but let me just, in terms of the questions that the member the Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan asks, the principles of Enabling Good Lives (EGL) are absolutely reflected through the section here. If you think about the eligible person\u2019s immediate long-term needs and circumstances, one of the things that we do want greater consideration of is investing early. So the social investment approach, which might mean, when considering a disabled person\u2019s long-term needs, actually there might be different assessments made around what support is available now. An example of that is the powered wheelchair research that\u2019s under way at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EIn terms of your question around other Government departments and support that\u2019s available, that is also one of the EGL principles, about mainstream access. So access should be equally available to health for disabled people\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022134a746437ace692551de4ad08048ee2\u0022\u003EHon Priyanca Radhakrishnan\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not what it means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b98f3b28543f37245b76ac571b9cfe2\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: No, no\u2014let me explain. So health should be accessible and available to disabled people, and clearly there\u2019s improvements that we need to make across the board there. The changes that were made to flexible funding\u2014that started 1\u00A0February\u2014took away all the guidelines, took away all the rules around flexible funding, to maximise disabled peoples\u2019 choice and to ensure that they are able to access the services and supports that they require.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232632704a2594ee1b96e617d06beae80\u0022 data-id=\u00222c4919d1a32571ec232762797f3d4be6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232632704a2594ee1b96e617d06beae80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c4919d1a32571ec232762797f3d4be6\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert) (10:49)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to dig down on the wording in clause 8, which is about \u201Cwhere appropriate\u201D. My colleagues touched on it, but I want to kind of dig down into this issue as it arises in clause 8(2)(b)(iv) and (vi). So my major concern would be with the first of those, but it is a principal question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EHere, we have a clause that says that one of the criteria is \u201Cwhere appropriate, the eligible person\u2019s resources;\u201D, and then we have another which says, \u201Cwhere appropriate, any other support that is available to the eligible person, including from\u2014(A) their family, wh\u0101nau, or other culturally recognised family group; and (B) their community.\u201D Now, that looks to me like there\u2019s a lot of capacity there to decide what is appropriate. What I\u2019d like to know is, what is meant by \u201Cwhere appropriate\u201D? When would it be appropriate and when would it not? What kind of restrictions are there on the Minister for Disability Issues changing what that criteria is through that pathway of just simply deciding that it is now appropriate, and moving a lot away from the status quo into something that is much more burdensome on both that person\u2019s resources and their family and community? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFor example, we had the Minister talk about how that wasn\u2019t her intention at the moment. She was categorical in the House that her intention was that there would be no means testing beyond the point it is now, but does she accept that that particular wording is permissive? What kinds of constraints has she put in place to hold firm to her assertion in the House that that would not be happening under, at least, her watch? What kind of constraints has she put on others in this piece of legislation if it is her intention that this is not the beginning of an increased use of means testing or becoming overly burdensome on family and community in a way which actually means that people are being asked to do something that\u2019s simply burdensome to the point of becoming dysfunctional? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOne of my portfolios is community and voluntary. I appreciate that the community steps up so many times in this area, but I also appreciate that it often fails in those situations because of a scarcity of resource, often from, actually, Government funding, but also because it\u2019s hard out there and there just isn\u2019t the money to support the organisations the way they were. We\u2019re seeing a dip in giving, so we do not have those kinds of resources available in the community anymore. I\u2019m also aware in areas that are well beyond the scope of this bill, things like in the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229199010bc76483f1952a526c5044ec59\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Then we won\u2019t be talking about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232632704a2594ee1b96e617d06beae80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae0c4b6f6428beabf2d9b21e0b434418\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no, it\u2019s important because it does relate, I promise, Madam Chair. We have a situation in something like Oranga Tamariki where there is a pushing out to wh\u0101nau and pushing out to community when that resource is not there, and it is known not to be there. That can happen in a situation where we\u2019re trying to stop the burden coming on to the State. We can push to these places that just don\u2019t exist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI am aware that, in these situations, it\u2019s a problem that\u2019s systemic that we push out, and we can say it\u2019s appropriate when it\u2019s actually just simply factually impractical. I would love for the Minister to tell me what is the constraint on the use of that beyond what is actually really appropriate? What kind of stop has she put on others misusing this, even if she has made a binding commitment in this House to it not being used in that way? Those are my primary questions. That use of the language, \u201Cwhere appropriate\u201D \u2014did she have advice on that? That really concerns me that there is so much wiggle room in it, even if the Minister is bona fide trying to do the right thing. What was the purpose of using that wording? Why does it need to be so wide?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204a1facd5d5bc92190667656539c8f6d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired. Before I take the next call, I\u2019ve been in the chair a short time and I believe we have thrashed subclause 8(2), so I am looking for new material please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022 data-id=\u002288f55416a69631be75a44016898ad246\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288f55416a69631be75a44016898ad246\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green) (10:54)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much. Just a question on definitions in the bill, and this will be very brief stuff, and I note your comments, but one thing that I wanted to note that seems to not be defined in the bill is there\u2019s a lot of definitions for what \u201Cfamily member\u201D is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdd2524fb5c773ebb1214d32df2d9dd9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Under what clause?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4d3a3651e21c6eacbebc74fc9dfd3cb\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: This is my final contribution on clause 8, so I will move on immediately after, but I just wanted to note that there is quite an extensive definition of what a \u201Cfamily member\u201D is considered as, but there seems to be no definition of what a \u201Ccommunity\u201D is for the purposes of this bill and disability support services (DSS) funding services. I\u2019m concerned that we have this kind of thing where \u201Ccommunity\u201D is just left out and not really defined, and I wanted to get the Minister for Disability Issues\u2019 views on what interpretations she will be giving, or wants to give, the term \u201Ccommunity\u201D for the purposes of, for example, whether frontline decision makers could be using, \u201CWell, you belong to a church that runs Sunday programmes and that counts as a community stepping in for you.\u201D Would it be like, \u201CHey, look, in your neighborhood, there are volunteer-run programmes that exist, say, three blocks away from where you live. That counts as a community for the purposes of the resources that exist.\u201D? Could it be that, in small rural areas, just somewhere in your whole township that provides some sort of support is considered \u201Ccommunity\u201D for the purpose of eligibility criteria? Because we have quite an extensive definition of who is and is not a family member, but I\u2019m concerned about the fact that \u201Ccommunity\u201D just doesn\u2019t have that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe reason why I think this is quite important is that, if we look at other Acts where, for example, people are asked to look outside for support that could be met\u2014for example, the Social Security Act\u2014we often have case managers saying, \u201CWell, have you checked out this food bank that exists several neighborhoods away before we give you assistance?\u201D It\u2019s really fraught how, for example, in the Social Security Act, those provisions cover \u201CHave you checked for other support first before we give you support?\u201D I am really concerned that \u201Ccommunity\u201D is just left out so broadly. I am none the wiser as to how that will be interpreted when it comes to the DSS funding decision making. If the Minister would like to elucidate on what her definition of \u201Ccommunity\u201D is and how that could be used to the detriment, if at all, obviously, of people, I\u2019d love to know, because I do think that that is really, really, really important criteria.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, moving onto clause 11\u2014and to signal to the chair that the only reason I would go back to clause 8 is if I don\u2019t get engagement from the Minister on the \u201Ccommunity\u201D definition\u2014but on subclause (4A), on page 8, something that the Minister did not engage with in my previous comments was just on a reassurance that no programme will go through without adequate engagement and co-design with disabled people. Because, again, that\u2019s one of the key tensions that has existed post-select committee stage in the reassurance that the Minister has given. I note that the Minister has apologised for, say, the process and the hurt for what has occurred in this legislative process, but this subclause (4A) on page 8 is, in my view, the place in which those mistakes could be redressed by giving a reassurance that no programme will go ahead without an adequate co-design process. Otherwise, what we have heard from the likes of Dr Huhana Hickey, from CCS, and others is that the Minister can just claim, \u201CWell, I talked to one service provider and that is good enough.\u201D I know that the Minister said in previous comments, \u201CI\u2019ve already addressed that, and I agree with Ricardo that community is not monolithic and there are many views.\u201D, but that doesn\u2019t really address or engage with the matter of whether programmes could still go ahead without a high bar of consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIf the Minister could engage with subclause (4A) specifically, and what bar and standards she wants to set before any programme gets rolled out in terms of the level of co-design, and what, for example, \u201Crepresentatives of disabled people\u201D mean. Representatives of disabled people could be someone who\u2019s not disabled. You could literally talk to a bunch of able-bodied people who are not disabled and who deem themselves as representatives, and the programme could then be rolled out. Could she please set the standard that she wishes to use for the purpose of subclause (4A), and, to recap, what does she define as \u201Ccommunity\u201D for the purposes of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d6692603897f1585338445e06979786\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired. Just to reiterate the point\u2014this is my second warning about repetition\u2014even though I did make that clear before the member stood up, he has repeated two items that were previously answered by the Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022915f57c6621fa1e63ea5b5a7ce2895d6\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s new material on those items.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b80a438074fb538aa5a6a117016c27d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Please don\u2019t argue with me, Mr March. I am explaining myself. Repetition is not getting us anywhere. You are going to get the same answers to the same questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d4cabbc040bfb7dc36df05854652315\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: She\u2019s dismissing the questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022 data-id=\u0022602f7c601f4bf85deef0fc3eb72110bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022602f7c601f4bf85deef0fc3eb72110bf\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour) (11:00)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. This is my first call in the entire debate\u2014I\u2019ll just point that out. This is new material that the Minister has not addressed. I am anxious to give it because it does relate to the definition of \u201Ccommunities\u201D, which is the clause 8 that you\u2019re warning us to move on from, but it is relevant to the points that I also want to make about another section. I hope that the Chair can give me the ability to do this because what I am wanting to raise here is the lack of any reference in this legislation to Te Tiriti o Waitangi and the impact of these legislative changes on M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m referring in particular to a submission from Te Ao M\u0101rama Aotearoa, who represent t\u0101ngata whaikaha and their wh\u0101nau and who in their submissions point out how disappointed and how upset they are that they were not consulted at all in the development of this legislation. They have concerns around the wide definition of \u201Ccommunity\u201D and the impact on concepts and tikanga like whanaungatanga that are important in terms of clause 8. They also have concerns around the lack of consultation in the development of this bill. Talking to clause 11(4A), it says the Minister must consult, and yet we didn\u2019t see that consultation happen in the development of a very significant piece of legislation\u2014a huge change in a generation, essentially\u2014with no references to Te Tiriti o Waitangi and no engagement with the representative body of t\u0101ngata whaikaha and their wh\u0101nau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe Ao M\u0101rama Aotearoa point out that the Crown is obliged to engage with them directly under Te Tiriti o Waitangi and many other conventions that we are part of, and the Crown did not. They also said that when it comes to conscription of wh\u0101nau in clause 8\u2014I just want to read the submission and see if the Minister has any response to this. They say: \u201CThe communities with the most expansive conceptions of collective responsibility, our communities, carry the heaviest statutory expectation, while the Crown that drafted the clause carries none: no duty to assess whether the presumed support exists, is safe, is sustainable, or is consented to by the wh\u0101nau or by the disabled person; no training, no respite guarantee, no income protection; no limit in scope or duration; no point at which the obligation is fulfilled.\u201D The point they make is that \u201CWhanaungatanga is a taonga. It is not fiscal infrastructure for the Crown to draw down, and aroha is not a substitute for the State meeting its obligations to its disabled citizens.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn terms of clause 11(4A), \u201CBefore approving and establishing a programme under subsection (1), the Minister must also consult such representatives of disabled persons as the Minister considers appropriate.\u201D Does the Minister consider Te Ao M\u0101rama Aotearoa, the representative organisation for \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003E[Authorised reo M\u0101ori text to be inserted by the Hansard Office.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E[Authorised translation to be inserted by the Hansard Office.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003Eappropriate to engage with? Why did she not engage with them in the development of this legislation? Will she engage with them under that particular clause, and will she reconsider the fact that they do not have any reference to Te Tiriti o Waitangi in this legislation and, as these submissions point out, what the need for that is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u0022da113171764addd3c736b58ba26a857f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da113171764addd3c736b58ba26a857f\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues) (11:04)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve answered questions around consultation in the creation of the bill; I\u2019ve answered questions around consultation going forward, and I\u2019ve answered questions about family.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022 data-id=\u002225fd6afdaac1ab2ecaad76ee8c0109c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225fd6afdaac1ab2ecaad76ee8c0109c0\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour) (11:05)\u003C/span\u003E: I would like to ask the Minister some questions around clause 10, and that is the ability for the Minister to give the ministry binding directions. This is the section of the legislation that allows the Minister to create, through secondary legislation, ministerial programmes or support programmes, which basically contains all of the detail that disabled people and carers are interested in and wanting to see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI will note the Minister\u2019s comments earlier on in this debate; we did have a back and forth on decisions around the line between primary and secondary legislation and why so much of this detail the Minister has decided to put in secondary legislation instead of primary. I won\u2019t traverse that bit, but what I do want to ask the Minister is, given that the authority to make secondary legislation is both by convention and through the Legislation Act, from memory\u2014the guidelines around that are to be really careful about the level of detail, technicality, and complexity that Ministers put into secondary legislation. If I look at the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet\u2019s own website\u2014and I\u2019m looking at this because in clause 10(3)\u2014it basically says to \u201C(\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003Esee\u003C/span\u003E Part 3 of the Legislation Act 2019 for publication requirements).\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis is to the Minister\u2019s previous point, where she stated that her decision to include all of the detail around support programmes in secondary legislation rather than a mix of primary and secondary is to give people comfort that things can\u2019t be changed very quickly. I\u2019d like to tease that aspect of the Minister\u2019s comments out through this particular clause. The guidelines are basically that substantive policy shouldn\u2019t be in secondary legislation, but it should just be, for example, the amounts or the thresholds that need to be changed that should be in secondary legislation. But the specific types of support programmes that people can access should be in primary legislation so that they cannot be changed quickly and without the oversight of Parliament. Can the Minister give us some clarity around that later part of that point?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EDisabled people who have been submitting to this, who have been listening to debates in the House around this, don\u2019t feel a level of comfort, because it\u2019s easier to change secondary legislation than primary legislation. I also understand that there is specific language that the Minister could have used in this legislation, in this particular clause, to require the Regulations Review Committee\u2014and I understand that my colleague Arena Williams would like to speak to that a little bit further. That could have then given people some comfort that changes cannot be made to support programmes quickly. Can the Minister clarify why she said that, given that secondary legislation is easier to change than primary legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u0022714c1efe2c24160cf7afe32a93ff88f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022714c1efe2c24160cf7afe32a93ff88f7\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues) (11:08)\u003C/span\u003E: We have traversed this in the earlier conversation around flexibility as one component. The other thing I would point out here, in terms of clause 10 that the member is referring to, is that this is also about how the ministry performs its duties. Without traversing history, I think there are many examples of how it was previously set up that it didn\u2019t perform those duties anywhere near well enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232632704a2594ee1b96e617d06beae80\u0022 data-id=\u00224b0b22b297aff4ccdab7e79dbc3e2373\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232632704a2594ee1b96e617d06beae80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b0b22b297aff4ccdab7e79dbc3e2373\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert) (11:09)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I would like to talk about the employment provisions here\u2014so I\u2019m looking at clause 13. I have a background in this area, so it is of great concern to me when I see clauses like clause 13(2), which talks about \u201CIf A is a party to, or covered by, a written agreement with the Crown stating that A is an employee, the agreement is conclusive proof that A is an employee of the Crown.\u201D My problem with this is that employment relationships are a matter of fact. We have some very strong rules about what those things look like in the real world, and we also have a long-term relationship, here, just like many employment relationships, and things morph\u2014they change significantly in that time\u2014and employment law has always recognised that reality versus anything that\u2019s written down. I\u2019m concerned that, here, we have a very dangerous\u2014it\u2019s not really a precedent because it\u2019s also being done with contractors\u2014idea that writing overrides reality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIn these situations, we have a whole lot of people who are working their socks off, and we are deciding what they are, as a matter of signing the document, when, in employment law, we recognise that the reality morphs over time. We also recognise that there is a power imbalance in these situations. I couldn\u2019t think of anything more likely to have a power imbalance in it than this particular relationship, where people are trying to look after their loved ones. They really don\u2019t have a lot of choice in what they sign at that point. They are actually in a position of deep moral quandary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAnd so, I wanted to know from the Minister, what she looked at when she looked at that issue of the consistency of our country\u2019s moral approach to work and the issue of power imbalance, which is built into our Employment Relations Act. It recognises that straight up, and then all these other things hang off it, but we don\u2019t recognise a power imbalance in this relationship. Why not? That\u2019s what I\u2019d like to know. And I\u2019d like to know what safeguards there are with regard to that power imbalance. In other situations\u2014for example, the contractor situation\u2014we have often a reliance on independent legal advice. Is there anything going on here like that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThen, I have an issue with regard to that relationship choice: were there other options about the way we could handle this relationship that would not have excluded this community from the employment paradigm entirely? If there\u2019s a dispute, what happens? What happens in that situation? If there\u2019s a dispute about the way that people are treated\u2014we have a whole scaffolding in employment law around that. What\u2019s going to happen to these people if there are issues that emerge in terms of the way that they are treated? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI also asked questions about this when we were in the select committee\u2014about the issues around their employment treatment and the savings that were associated with excluding this group of workers from that scaffolding of employment. I asked questions about how much the Government would save, and I\u2019m asking you those questions now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299dafa9fd5521f0e5499f23ef6097b73\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232632704a2594ee1b96e617d06beae80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ab203342b4e4a666bbb7ac1d5827b95\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Madam Chair. I\u2019m asking the Minister to talk and be transparent about how much money the Government saved in this circumstance, but also how much there is an unintended consequence of people simply refusing to do this work in these conditions and that work being bounced into institutional care or other frameworks for care because they cannot do it. Is there a risk of economic impact with regard to that, and did she do some work on that? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u00224574b8c0473c02894ee2dc96fd2ac36a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224574b8c0473c02894ee2dc96fd2ac36a\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues) (11:14)\u003C/span\u003E: I spoke about this earlier in terms of one of the priority pieces of work being the future carers support package, which basically would resolve many of the issues the member raises.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u00227ced0b95f9563aaa249e07003fd2c4ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ced0b95f9563aaa249e07003fd2c4ca\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa) (11:14)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ll take a brief call for the Minister. I just want to ask her about her comments that the directions will allow who the flexibility\u2014it\u2019s the other way I want to ask about. Why is it formal and formally recognised as secondary legislation when the option for her was, obviously, then, policy, which would not be secondary legislation? The directions in this bill are similar in nature to the old system. I commend the Minister for this framework, which, as she, quite rightly, points out, didn\u2019t have a legislative basis before, so the directions were more akin to the immigration instructions in that they didn\u2019t have a legislative effect but they were something more binding than departmental policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe amendment in the name of the Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan that we have suggested to clause10, after (3), would make these confirmable instruments, which would give them the same status as confirmable instruments, which are a more commonly used tool to give ministerial directions. When the Regulations Review Committee confirms instruments, its only check is that they are made in line with the purposes and objects of the Act. That is what this clause 10 purports to do, but there is no check that the directions do, in fact, realise the objects and purposes of the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy question is: if it is her intention to make the directions secondary legislation, then what is the check and balance to ensure that that secondary legislation is made within the purposes of the Act, and that it\u2019s not ultra vires to the Act? Policy can be extra to the legislative framework; this is not policy and so the choice here to make it legislative, in effect, binds the Public Service in a way, which you\u2019re only able to do at this level, at the parliamentary level, if it is in line with the legislative intent. We\u2019re having a debate, right now, about what the legislative intent is, so it\u2019s also useful to be clear about what the checks and balances are to keep it in line with that intent. The alternative, then, is that it\u2019s meant to function more like the immigration instructions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022 data-id=\u00229925c2bd3499616db4e0d7049d155e8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229925c2bd3499616db4e0d7049d155e8e\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour) (11:16)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a few questions to the Minister on clause 11, and they are related to tabled amendments of mine as well. This particular clause brings into the debate issues around income testing, means testing, and asset testing, and that is another area that many have expressed significant levels of discomfort and anxiety around. I\u2019d like to test a few things with the Minister with regard to this. I won\u2019t go into the details, but it\u2019s across the various parts of clause 11.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Minister has said, many times, that the inclusion of income- and asset-based criteria in this clause is only meant to reflect where it\u2019s currently taken into account, and that is in very few circumstances. I would ask the Minister to consider my tabled amendments to remove these criteria completely to give disabled people comfort that they will not be means tested before disability support services support is made available to them. In the event that the Minister does not want to take it out completely, because it is currently criteria for specific things, I would draw her attention to my tabled amendment that is to replace, in clause 11(3)(g), after \u201Ccriteria\u201D, to then be specific about what this current criteria for income and asset testing refers to\u2014specifically, the Community Services Card for hearing aids, home modifications, or vehicle modifications. From memory, those are the only areas that the Minister has said is currently means-tested. If that is not the case, I would like the Minister to clarify what other areas are currently means tested, and I\u2019m happy to include those in my amendments as well. That will then give disabled people absolute surety and certainty, which is what the Minister wants to achieve out of this legislation\u2014that it will not then be used to means test further types of disability support funding that they can access, because those changes can be made, through clauses 10 and 11, in future support programmes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy next question around criteria for the Minister is reflecting on a previous discussion as to why eligibility criteria, more broadly, as laid out on her own Ministry\u2019s website, is not included in primary legislation. The Minister said, firstly, that there was no such thing but also that her decision there was to ensure a maximum level of flexibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENow, reading clause 11 in its entirety, it occurs to me, and I\u2019ll put this to the Minister\u2014I would like her to either confirm or clarify that her decision not to include disability services support (DSS) eligibility criteria in primary legislation is so that it can be changed for various types of support, which is, again, a departure from current practice. Currently, if you are a disabled person and you meet some of the criteria that is currently listed on the ministry\u2019s website\u2014you have specific types of disability\u2014the Needs Assessment Service Coordination (NASC) organisation will assess what particular supports you need based on your disability and then give you a support package that will allow you to access the support that you need to be able to live an ordinary life\u2014presumably.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENot including that in primary legislation but saying in clause 11 that there will be different types of eligibility criteria for different types of disability support is anxiety-inducing, because at this point, although the Minister has repeatedly said that this legislation does not change current eligibility or entitlement today to DSS support, this indicates that it will change. This indicates that the Minister, through secondary legislation, can change the criteria for, say, community-based support versus residential support or flexible funding. The Minister is shaking her head, which is good\u2014if that is not the intention\u2014but can she please clarify how else anyone is meant to interpret this legislation other than the interpretation that I have just put to her?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u002274c86d72496cd6dee5a03d682f7b434d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274c86d72496cd6dee5a03d682f7b434d\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues) (11:21)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re going over the same ground again, so I\u2019m not going to traverse that. In terms of means testing, it would not be an accurate reflection of the current state if it had been excluded from the legislation. That is why it is included, and it has been amended to make it clearer as a result of the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6e8807f4266a9db48f81509c0485c07\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: This is my final warning on repetition. We have traversed up to clause 12, and we are moving on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022 data-id=\u002217e2c9ea426768334af4963ca8eb7a5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002217e2c9ea426768334af4963ca8eb7a5b\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green) (11:22)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I wanted to speak to Priyanca Radhakrishnan\u2019s amendment, tabled at 9.13.07 a.m., which hasn\u2019t been spoken about yet, so bringing some new material to it. This is the deletion of clause 11(4B)(b)\u2014and I haven\u2019t spoken about new subclause (4B) in clause 11 myself yet; I don\u2019t think anyone has. So, on (4B), and particularly looking at paragraph (b).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFirst of all, I want to know what the Minister\u2019s justification is to have the ability to basically override the provisions in new subclause (4A), which is about consultation\u2014basically, to say that there\u2019s a \u201Cmust also consult\u201D with disabled people, but, actually, in (4B), failure to comply with those consultation requirements does not affect the validity of any programme. Can she see why (4B)(b) doesn\u2019t give any teeth to the provisions in (4A), because, basically, why would the Minister have a requirement to consult and then have a provision that says, \u201CWell, actually, but if it doesn\u2019t happen, it doesn\u2019t really change anything.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ECan I get a sense of the Minister\u2019s intention for having a provision in (4B)(b) to say that \u201CLook, at the end of the day, if you do not comply with any of these consultation requirements, the programme can go ahead anyway.\u201D? Which takes me to the point that, you know, if the Minister is genuine about having a requirement to consult, why wouldn\u2019t she support Priyanca Radhakrishnan\u2019s amendment that seeks to delete clause 11(4B)(b)? If she doesn\u2019t support it, I\u2019d love to know what her justification is for just simply scrapping those constitutional requirements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat takes me to my final point, which I haven\u2019t had engaged with the Minister, which is whether the term \u201Crepresentatives\u201D actually includes disabled people or whether it can include non-disabled people, or whether the Minister would be satisfied if she only consulted with able-bodied people that seek to represent disabled people for the purposes of (4A). Again, I just don\u2019t understand why you would have this interaction between (4A) and (4B)(b), which seems to just sort of allow the Minister to ignore disabled people or their representatives anyway. Any comments, justification, or indication of support\u2014not \u201Cor\u201D; and indication of support\u2014for the amendment would be very welcomed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u0022da08b81d96ca0d1163bd9472ff6e7193\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da08b81d96ca0d1163bd9472ff6e7193\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues) (11:25)\u003C/span\u003E: Where there\u2019s a minor, in effect, issue that wouldn\u2019t be consulted on\u2014for example, it could be where there is an increase in a rate, so you wouldn\u2019t go out with wide consultation where a rate is being increased. Clearly, if there were changes the other way, which would not be minor and which would have an impact, that would require consultation. So that is an example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b618b847a57b4afb94b76eaea9e042a5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2d0614ea8d875db8e3b014c1b87e85e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b618b847a57b4afb94b76eaea9e042a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2d0614ea8d875db8e3b014c1b87e85e\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill) (11:25)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat debate on this question now close\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat debate on this question now close\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229229b16c48e991da453aea3d29790c74\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 8(2) to replace \u201Ctake into account\u201D with \u201Cto give effect to\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the amendment be agreed to\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c32e059db5b8acc92a6581ce2d189cdf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 8(2)(a) to insert words after \u201Cmembers\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the amendment be agreed to\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cc98562ad6647addf3831f4aaacd58e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 8 to insert new paragraph (c) into subsection 8(2) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the amendment be agreed to\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022167936540d6e9a3ce04f11260fa5c184\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 10 is out of order as not being in the correct form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe question is that the Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 11(3) deleting paragraph (f) be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the amendment be agreed to\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277ad2625f72b8007143b890c3cb10602\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 11(3) deleting paragraph (g) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the amendment be agreed to\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b35ddc178e5a40cee1784cdb37f29e2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 11(3)(f) restricting income-based criteria for matters relating to community services card be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the amendment be agreed to\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229531a911c21665d990a100308621a8fc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 11(3)(g) restricting asset-based criteria for matters relating to community services card be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the amendment be agreed to\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea862eb8f73e8c6ccc13f157a619795d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 11(4B) deleting paragraph (b) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the amendment be agreed to\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228af1adca737374bd9caf576250794c4f\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e865bf736997081970b033a3962510f0\u0022\u003EPart 3 Miscellaneous provisions, and Schedule 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2cb5154c78141f21b134e396386d05a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 3, which is the debate on clauses 17 and 18, \u201CMiscellaneous provisions\u201D, and Schedule 2. The question is that Part 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022 data-id=\u0022d283a08f5382e8767e7546a8bc89d928\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d283a08f5382e8767e7546a8bc89d928\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour) (11:35)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I have a couple of quick questions for the Minister on this part, and all of it relates to clause 17 and the review that will need to be undertaken at the conclusion of five years. I also, I guess, take the Social Services and Community Committee\u2019s recommendation to shift the transitional period from three years to five years to enable for the consultation that is now required in this bill to take place, although the Minister had said she was going to consult anyway\u2014but now she has an additional 2 years to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMy questions, though, are related to clause 17(1)(a) and the review of the operation of this Act. I would like to ask the Minister what she envisages that review to include. Will it just be whether this Act is working, which is how I would interpret that particular part of this clause. Given that the bulk of the detail is in the secondary legislation, will the review also include whether those support programmes are working, bearing in mind that the Minister\u2019s intention is to have that, or at least some of them, concluded, presumably by the end of that five-year period. Or will it be all of the support programmes concluded via secondary legislation at the end of that review period? I\u2019d like some clarity around what the review will actually include. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI would also like to know whether the Minister intends for there to be consultation with disability communities in that review process as well. The reason that I ask this is because I would like to know whether the review, and the report that results from that, will include a reflection on whether this legislation\u2014given that the intention of the legislation is to provide a foundational framework for disability support services funding, but, ultimately, it is to ensure that disabled people and carers are supported to be able to lead, in the words of this bill, everyday lives. Will that be included in the review? Will it actually look at whether this legislation is working for disabled people, carers, and the disability community more broadly, rather than just whether the letter of the law is functioning in an operational sort of manner? So that\u2019s my main question to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also like to know in clause 17(1)(b) where it states that there should be consideration as to whether any amendments to this Act are necessary or desirable, whether that will also take into account secondary legislation as part of that review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6a992b4a23ef1e4c1b5a38c665597cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6a992b4a23ef1e4c1b5a38c665597cd\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues) (11:38)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair, I want to thank the Social Services and Community Committee for their work, particularly on this part, which created the inclusion of the review of the legislation after five years and increased the transition period from three years to five. Clearly, a review of any legislation would need to consider if it is acting as intended. I think that\u2019s particularly important because there hasn\u2019t been legislation in this space already. My expectation is that it would of course review or include in its scope support programmes that are secondary legislation. Not all of them would have been in place for long enough, so it perhaps wouldn\u2019t make sense to review all of them, but any of them that were in place would make sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe other thing that I had indicated, which admittedly is out of the scope of this legislation, but I had talked about an intent that there would need to be a second Disability Support Services Bill to look specifically at some areas that have been raised. A second bill would also mean that if there was anything in this piece of legislation that was clearly not working already, it could be picked up at that stage. But what is the intent behind this legislation? What is the intent behind support programmes, specifically the ones I\u2019ve talked about in terms of flexible funding and a carers support package? It is absolutely to make disability support services better than it is today. Why do we care about that? Because we want to improve the lives of disabled New Zealanders, their carers, and families. So, yes, that would be part of the review. The law clearly wasn\u2019t going to be working as intended, unless disabled people, their carers, and families were seeing an improvement in their lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u002210e822b336aef4b8c007244892ab826d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210e822b336aef4b8c007244892ab826d\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa) (11:40)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. My questions relate to clause 18, and the consequential amendments. First, as a more general question to the Minister, she was helpful in her elucidation about the purpose of the review, and the answer might be \u201Cthe review\u201D to this question, but this is a devilishly complicated piece of legislation in the way that it deals with secondary legislation and confirmable instruments that exist within the system. That\u2019s the purpose of the legislation, is to deal with all of the things that have grown up that are regulatory-like within the system. The consequential amendments section seems light, and I want to ask her what advice she has had from officials that the consequential amendments are the whole suite of legislative changes which will be needed to be made to other Acts. What has been her process to ensure that we are capturing those people who have already had a decision under the law that is a legal decision now, but under her new law will not be a legal decision and will rely on outmoded legislation. So that\u2019s the first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe second question is particularly about the ministerial directions. I think that her new clause 10 makes ministerial directions that have happened prior to the commencement of this Act secondary legislation. My question is: does this Act amend secondary legislation by giving directions which were policy now the status of regulation, or is it the case that she will need to reissue all of the ministerial\u2014what are now directions, but were policy. To give you an example of this, programmes that the ministry would have been responsible for before are now secondary legislation. Do they automatically count as new law now, or do they need to be reissued? In which case, shouldn\u2019t they be in the consequential amendments part? Should there not be amendments which list out all of those pieces of what is now secondary legislation? The reason I ask this is because the real-world impact is that somebody\u2019s house that is partly funded under health, and partly funded under the new system, will rely on a ministerial direction that didn\u2019t have the status of secondary legislation until this Act is in force. It\u2019s useful to understand, for those people who are carrying over from the old system to the new system\u2014it\u2019s good that they now have a new system which is legislative\u2014but how do the directions now become legislative?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u00228517d5b2dbc1642dd652630165f254ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228517d5b2dbc1642dd652630165f254ef\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues) (11:43)\u003C/span\u003E: There are no ministerial directions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022 data-id=\u0022059846a0f290bc975bf848380cd48355\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022059846a0f290bc975bf848380cd48355\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour) (11:43)\u003C/span\u003E: Back to the review\u2014and I thank the Minister for her responses there, that the review will look at the impacts, or the effects, of support programmes as well, and not just the primary legislation alone. I would then like to ask her who will carry out the review. Will disabled people lead that review, or will they be part of that review? I would also like to know whether the terms of reference for that review will be made public before it\u2019s undertaken, and whether they will comply with the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities as well. I would also like to ask the Minister how she is going to measure improvement. If this is foundational legislation, we don\u2019t really have a baseline, I guess, of how it\u2019s working for disabled people outside of what they tell us, and even that is not codified in terms of a baseline. Given the Minister has said that her intention through the review process, and the report, is to improve the lives of disabled people and carers, how will she measure that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4f730fc3904d0f4c46cf0348ba67065\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4f730fc3904d0f4c46cf0348ba67065\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues) (11:44)\u003C/span\u003E: I would expect that the terms of reference for the review include the disabled people\u2019s organisations, similar to the consultation around support programmes. There are other pieces of legislation that have been reviewed, and I would expect that this would follow a similar course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u00224f3e2b558031ed01a1b21036ef3a7f2b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f3e2b558031ed01a1b21036ef3a7f2b\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa) (11:44)\u003C/span\u003E: My question to the Minister is\u2014I understand that her answer is that there are no directions because the directions are a creature of her new clause 10. What I\u2019m asking her is\u2014and I\u2019ll put to her a real-world example of a constituent of mine, for things which operated like the directions under the old system. I understand why you\u2019re doing this, Minister\u2014that we need a legislative framework for the sorts of instructions that Ministers need to give for the programmes and the systems, for disabled people to access the services that they require. This is a good piece of legislation, in that it at least does give legislative form to what are appropriately, laws. In a situation that my constituent had, they were trying to use funding that they were entitled to, for a trip, which was rightly funded within the rules and instructions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EThe question that ended up going all the way up to the top level of the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) was whether the sort of trip that they were asking for was within the remit of the policy intent. All of the instructions said that they could have this kind of trip\u2014for their wellbeing, for their mental health\u2014because it was within their special interest, and because they were someone who was entitled to support for that kind of thing. All of the policy requirements were met, but the question that ended up being needed to be determined at the very highest level of leadership of MSD was whether they were entitled to use it for this particular kind of trip\u2014and, rightly, whether that was within the full scope of the legislative design of the programmes. Those didn\u2019t have precedential value before, where a Minister or chief executive was being asked to sign off on a particular policy question where all of the policy intentions were met for someone\u2019s programme and for someone\u2019s funding, but does this particular example sit within the scope of the legislative intent, that is rightly law; you are making it law. Do those decisions in the old system now have precedential value? Are they like law? Or are you going to, essentially, reissue all of those, so this person who was able to go on a cruise would not be able to in future?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc39fb79cbf2fc9905fad4d3b87ebfb8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc39fb79cbf2fc9905fad4d3b87ebfb8\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues) (11:47)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair\u2014Mr Chair, my apologies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b677d1fda45723d430ee7c7d012b152\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s the year 2026.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce1b70f575d23e1428681d98c4d2c164\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2014from the circumstances that she has outlined\u2014refers to the flexible funding policy, and my intention would be that the flexible funding policy would be one of the first support programmes, because of the improvement we\u2019ve already made. There are no rules, there are no guidelines now, around flexible funding. Where there is overseas travel, there is kind of a check and balance, which I think people would expect, but there is no intention to change what the policy is currently, but it is going to be important to put it into a support programme that\u2019s one of the first that I want to be in a support programme, because we have made improvements from a year ago, two years ago, three years ago, and I want those improvements to be protected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022 data-id=\u00227a23ef9b051b6ee1b937a361a8703a35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a23ef9b051b6ee1b937a361a8703a35\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour) (11:48)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Further to what the Minister has said around the review, and I note that she has not responded to how it will be measured\u2014how improvement will be measured\u2014so if there is a way in which it will be measured, it would be useful to hear that. I also want to know what happens in the meantime. This review\u2014the transition period has now increased from three years to five years. The Minister has said that at the end of the five-year period, when this legislation and its effects are reviewed, some support programmes will be completed and in a position to be reviewed, whereas there will be others that will not. That makes sense, but in the meantime, if there is harm that is caused as a result of some of those support programmes, what, then, is the mechanism for feedback and change, particularly given that some of those won\u2019t be part of the review?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EAlso, would the Minister consider amending this portion to include a requirement for Ministers to implement the report? Currently, as the legislation is drafted, the Minister conducts the review\u2014presumably\u2014the Ministry conducts review\u2014and there is no requirement for it to be informed by disabled people. I wonder whether the Minister would consider including that amendment in this legislation. Also, the requirement then is to consider whether there are any amendments necessary, prepare a report, and then to just present that report to Parliament. Would the Minister consider some sort of binding amendment there to require a Minister to implement the report once it\u2019s published and presented?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u002208d47e9a2aaa426ac9ffe467e6350219\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208d47e9a2aaa426ac9ffe467e6350219\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues) (11:50)\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to clarify then the inclusion of support programmes in the five-year review would be\u2014within the transition, my expectation is that all of the support programmes will be drafted and in place. At the end of five years, there might be one that\u2019s only been in place for three months, for example, so it wouldn\u2019t make sense to include that in the review, because it hasn\u2019t been in place long enough, right? I just want to be clear about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsContinued\u0022\u003EI will ask the Ministry of Social Development to put some early consideration into what the starting point might be, in terms of being able to measure those outcomes in five years\u2019 time\u2014I think you raise a good point there. I will ask for that so that we can make sure we\u2019ve got a starting point. As I said before, the review of the legislation\u2014because it is about reviewing whether or not the legislation has delivered as intended\u2014would of course include disabled people in that. To me, it would make sense in the first stages of that, which includes confirming what the terms of reference for the review would be\u2014I don\u2019t think it\u2019s useful for me in this Chamber now to dictate how that review would work, who would be involved, over what time frame, etc. I would have thought any member in this Chamber and any Minister who\u2019s responsible at that time, given that there is a very strong interest by all of us in improving the lives of disabled people, their carers and families, would want to make sure that those changes are made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b618b847a57b4afb94b76eaea9e042a5\u0022 data-id=\u0022422af5b44e3027190ea3c985444b99ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b618b847a57b4afb94b76eaea9e042a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022422af5b44e3027190ea3c985444b99ef\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill) (11:52)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat debate on this question now close\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b618b847a57b4afb94b76eaea9e042a5\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat Part 3 be agreed to\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258b130d42613a78d3e787802490f9ca7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Schedule 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat Schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat Schedule 2 be agreed to\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 50\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cc541a528188997415993d084227a005\u0022\u003ECommittee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsClauseHeading\u0022 id=\u0022054a30d2e4c35055530f8291c32436a0\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a267869c6756c038008036c164f0b5d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come to our final debate, clauses 1 and 2, \u201CTitle\u201D and \u201CCommencement\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022 data-id=\u00222dc74d85c600dedc68e8f2dc147b6645\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222dc74d85c600dedc68e8f2dc147b6645\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour) (11:56)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair, and I thank members and the Minister for quite a wide-ranging back and forth today, but it\u2019s clarified a fair bit as well. The title of this bill is the Disability Support Services Bill, and it\u2019s reasonably vanilla, but I would include, in brackets, after \u201CServices\u201D and before \u201CBill\u201D, \u201C(Just the Status Quo)\u201D. This is the \u201CDisability Support Services (Just the Status Quo) Bill\u201D, because the Minister in the chair had the opportunity to transform the disability support services landscape and she has chosen not to. She has outlined her reason why, and that is: \u201CWe have a difference in approach.\u201D That\u2019s really what it boils down to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOn this side of the Chamber, we were in the process of transforming disability support services to such a point where the starting question to access services is not \u201CWhat support you need?\u201D but \u201CWhat does a good life look like to you?\u201D. Then transforming the processes and the systems that sit behind the funding lines and funding streams to be able to then deliver a package of support that would make meaningful difference to disabled people, carers, and the disability communities more broadly and to ensure that disabled people have more choice and control over the services and supports that they access and that they are supported by the State to live with dignity and independence as far is possible\u2014instead of us as a society moving in that trajectory, all this bill does is codify a system that is fragmented and not working for disabled people and carers. Therein lies my disappointment with this legislation. When we have an opportunity in this Chamber to make things better, all we are doing is legislating for the status quo that we all know doesn\u2019t work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat is the crux of why I feel that this bill should be titled slightly differently. It could also equally be the \u201CDisability Support Services (Not Transformational) Bill\u201D, because, ultimately, it doesn\u2019t achieve any sort of transformation. The Minister\u2019s point is that once we\u2019re done with another five years of then putting into secondary legislation the detail of what is currently available, then we can get to a point of transformation, but I would argue that disabled people have been waiting a very long time for that change\u2014it\u2019s been twenty-odd years since Enabling Good Lives, as a uniquely New Zealand approach, was developed to deal with some significant failures in the sector, in terms of disability support services back then. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EHere we are today, where we could also argue that this the \u201CDisability Support Services (Actually Taking us Backwards) Bill\u201D, because the assessment and allocation tools that the Minister has talked about in this committee stage today takes us back to the lowest common denominator. It doesn\u2019t progress us. She has talked about it in terms of increasing consistency\u2014and I would probably agree with her that maybe it does go some way to increasing consistency\u2014but it increases consistency and certainty not in the way that we would have liked, not in an aspirational way to improve lives, just to ensure that everyone gets access to basic supports that don\u2019t actually make a huge difference. Well, not that it doesn\u2019t make a difference to them; it does. It is important funding, but it could have been better. Instead, we\u2019re legislating to bring it down to the lowest common denominator, and that is very disappointing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI will take the Minister\u2019s point that there are certain changes that have been made, and the select committee supported some changes because of the significant pushback from disabled people\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213c85bcb3fca3a06d11b71aa2c431fbd\u0022\u003EHon Member: \u003C/span\u003EPressure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d17dcc38f395b3f3719fffaf56979e9\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CPressure\u201D is a good way to put it. There was significant pressure from disabled people, who had not been consulted at the start of this process. That has now led to some changes that are good, but they don\u2019t go far enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c763e7ded9c046d2ee8c06dca11c1fd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I just note that that was probably a third reading speech and that any other contributions won\u2019t be given quite the same largesse as that one was given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e31f3a7f9a19a7fca90d063be188f6fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e31f3a7f9a19a7fca90d063be188f6fc\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green) (12:02)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ve got a question for the Minister for Disability Issues on the commencement date. Does the Minister think that the commencement date is fit for purpose, based on the feedback that we have received from disabled people, who have felt excluded throughout the process and have only had limited ability to give input in the select committee stage through oral submissions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI ask this because the commencement date in and of itself could give the Minister an opportunity to say, \u201CLet\u2019s pause this. Let\u2019s potentially continue hearing from disabled people\u201D\u2014not just through the select committee stage, which disabled people have talked about; how it was insufficient because it was a truncated select committee process. I\u2019m curious to know whether the Minister is satisfied that the commencement date as it stands adequately takes into account the feedback that she has thoroughly received from disabled people, advocacy groups, and carers that they haven\u2019t been able to co-design this bill with her. Would she be open to amendments to the commencement date to give her a bit more time to adequately engage with disabled people and carers, who can then give input on whether the provisions in this bill actually reflect their aspirations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EUltimately, I know that, throughout the debate, she dismissed a lot of the concerns by nature of just saying, \u201CWell, nothing is changing.\u201D But that\u2019s kind of the point, right? Disabled people and carers have told us that the status quo isn\u2019t working for them. To simply keep things the same, in my view, does not adequately reflect the feedback we\u2019ve received from disabled people. I am just concerned that the way in which we\u2019ve got this commencement date and this bill and the rush with this process reflects more an aspiration from the Minister to be able to create a legislative framework from disability support services as opposed to actually honouring disabled people\u2019s and carers\u2019 voices along the way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m curious to know if she would be supportive of any tabled amendments we propose in this moment to act in good faith and honour the feedback we\u2019ve received on actually co-designing this bill. As has been noted by both the Green Party and the Labour Party, our commitment has been to scrap it and sort of start the process again, but we don\u2019t have to\u2014we could just delay the commencement date, go back as much as we can to the drawing board, and perhaps refer this back to the select committee and actually do it justice. I guess my question is: why the rush? Why the rush when disabled people have told us that they\u2019d rather us take the time we need to design this well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFor me, I think that would prevent what has happened, actually, which was the Minister coming out of the select committee process and apologising for the grief she had caused to disabled people. Disabled people had a right to be upset about this. I would loathe for the Minister to have to come back and apologise\u2014for example, for ongoing or unintended harm that this bill may be causing to carers and disabled people. So, on the commencement date itself, I just want the Minister to put on the record as to why she thinks there is a rush, despite a multitude and a variety of disabled voices telling us that the process has been fraught from the get-go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to reiterate that I am by no means claiming that there\u2019s a monolithic voice in here, but I would say that I have met National Party, Labour Party, Green Party and the odd New Zealand First and ACT Party voters who are disabled who have not supported this process. I don\u2019t think this is so much a partisan sort of issue as it is about a community that has, through its multitude of voices and experiences, told the Government this process is fraught. Why not at least end this legislative process, delay the commencement, so that we can actually, then, potentially go back to the select committee or adequately canvass disabled people\u2019s voices so that whatever comes out of it is fit for purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI just don\u2019t think that, so far, what we\u2019ve got adequately reflects disabled people\u2019s voices and aspirations. Even if we look at some of the previous parts of the debate, we did not even get adequate engagement\u2014or any engagement\u2014on, for example, how the Minister could ignore the need to consult disabled people\u2019s representatives in the design of disability support services. So, in good faith, I\u2019d asked the Minister to offer us any reflections on whether she\u2019d be open to delaying the commencement, to do this bill right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u00226d607872b50abdc4cea2498f599c2ba4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d607872b50abdc4cea2498f599c2ba4\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa) (12:07)\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Thank you, Mr Chair. I wanted to draw your attention to Speakers\u2019 ruling 127/3, on page 127 of the \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003ESpeakers\u2019 Rulings\u003C/span\u003E\u2014just in relation to your guidance, which I understand wasn\u2019t a ruling, but it leaves us in some trouble here, because we have a number of engaged spokespeople from the Opposition who wish to give concluding remarks on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESpeakers Hartley, Robertson, and Tisch have all affirmed the latitude of the Opposition, in making speeches on the preliminary clauses at the end of a debate which summarise and make concluding remarks about a bill, about the issues that they have raised within the committee\u2019s consideration of a bill. I just wanted to clarify, given that it\u2019s a new practice in this Parliament for the chairs of committees to give not rulings but sort of guidance to members, which is by and large helpful, whether your guidance there is that spokespeople from the Opposition should not give concluding sorts of remarks in the committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESay, in the 2004 example, where Speaker Hartley affirmed that position, that was in a debate where the Government had called repetition on members after 18 calls that the Opposition had made in concluding remarks around a preliminary clause. I just want to clarify the level at which you\u2019re giving that guidance and whether it is, in fact, a ruling which disagrees with the remarks of Speakers Hartley, Robertson, and Tisch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244af00665eb4f975eb5c10793120287f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely not. Any wise and experienced speaker will ensure that if they are speaking to the title and commencement, they will make more than a passing reference to it at different stages during a five-minute presentation. There is always some latitude. Also, the amount of repetition\u2014if a series of speakers stand up and say the same thing. Each presentation will be taken on its merits, but any wise speaker, especially when they\u2019re the third speaker in the series, would make some fairly constant reference to title and commencement, or to invite a closure motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u00221936e44d1efbe132ee363008667056ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221936e44d1efbe132ee363008667056ae\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa) (12:09)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair, thank you. I would like to speak to the title of this bill, the Disability Support Services Bill. It should be titled the \u201CEnabling Good Lives (Constituting and Reforming the Legislation) Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m proposing to the House that that title should have been commensurate with what was in the bill, because this bill should have given effect to the policy that is transformational and would have impacted the lives of disabled people in Aotearoa and was something that New Zealand could have been proud of on the world stage. But, in fact, this bill does the opposite of that; it reverses the policy that disabled people have been calling for for 20 years. I would suggest to the committee that this is the stage that it should vote with the Opposition to not only change the title of the bill but also reject the rest of it, because this is a bill that changes New Zealand\u2019s framework for the better but introduces a policy that is all wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI find it difficult to talk about this bill. This is a bill which is not in my specialist area. I commend the Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan for her work in this area. It is not my area, but this is the area of Government reform which I find the hardest to see and hear in this House, because I think it is all in the wrong direction. I think if there is one thing that should be bipartisanly agreed in this Chamber, it is that disabled people should be able to live with dignity in a country like Aotearoa and that when they do not have the means to provide for themselves, the State should step in. That is a fundamental belief of mine, and it should be carried forward in any country that likes to call itself one where people have equitable and equal access to rights as citizens. This is more fundamental than any other change, I believe, that this Government has made, because this says that we are moving from a system where disabled people and our most vulnerable can rely on a social safety net\u2014one that was agreed after war in the 1940s in most liberal democracies that we like to compare ourselves to\u2014to one where they cannot, where there is uncertainty in the law regarding the sorts of services that they will be provided with, and where there is almost entirely ministerial discretion. It will come down to \u201Cfirst in, first served\u201D and the most in need gets it without any kind of fundamental relationship to the idea that people with disabilities and their families should be able to rely on a fundamental standard of dignity with which to live their lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI walked out on to the street in Manurewa the other day. It was about 12 o\u2019clock, and there was a chap there\u2014his name is Hone\u2014who was waiting for a taxi to pick him up. He used a crutch, and he had a small carry-on suitcase with him for the things that he needed to go about his day. When I walked out again after my meeting at about 1.20 p.m., he was still waiting there. I had a conversation with him about why he was waiting. He said that the taxi won\u2019t pick him up and that he\u2019s spoken to the taxi driver twice, but because of the changes to Total Mobility, he understands why the driver won\u2019t pick him up. He understands why the driver has other jobs to do, he understands why it\u2019s not profitable for the driver, and yet he waited an hour and 20 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe changes that are happening in this system mean that people like that are living worse lives. This bill does that. This should be a different bill. This should be a bill which outlines the New Zealand Government\u2019s long-term commitment to people with disabilities. It should outline our bipartisan long-term intentions to enable them to live lives with dignity. It does not do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d72cf7a2b1d90c212b8da5d582a50832\u0022\u003EHon Member: \u003C/span\u003ENo question. Third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c21025fc07f0237bdbff60fb6a1117c\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: I hear the Government asking \u201CWhat is the question?\u201D My question is: where is the humanity in this bill? Where is the commitment to the principles that the National Party espouses and will be espousing on the campaign stumps? We will hear them say that they have compassion for people in Aotearoa. We will hear them say that they believe in the kind of future for young people where they want to stay here and build good lives. This is it too. It\u2019s not just about the people who can afford to provide for themselves, it\u2019s not just about the people who can aspire to own a home and live the kind of life that we would all want them to, and it\u2019s also about their brothers, their sisters, and their kaum\u0101tua and kuia who cannot provide for themselves. At the end of the day, if they cannot rely on the State\u2014whichever colour it is; blue or red\u2014to fight for those people and to advocate for them and to stand in when they cannot provide for themselves, then that is a fundamental change in the way that we do things here in Aotearoa. This is that bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce8f7aac6dac0d7829dfe3f54eb6f1ba\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Ms Williams, you\u2019ve taken a liberty. I\u2019ll take a\u2014oh, honourable Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8493abbe776ffc7804f5f607a15f083\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8493abbe776ffc7804f5f607a15f083\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues) (12:14)\u003C/span\u003E: We won\u2019t be changing the name and title of this piece of legislation. We will not be changing the commencement date, and I want to explain why. It\u2019s because the lives of disabled people in New Zealand are frankly not good enough. They are not served well enough by not just the Disability Support Service but Government agencies across the board. That\u2019s why it is important that this legislation is passed so that continued improvements can be made to the lives of disabled people, their families, and carers. In terms of the principles of Enabling Good Lives, they are very much at the heart of this legislation, which is why it is important it is passed and that it commences. Significantly, some of the improvements that have already been made by this Government in increasing funding over both Budget 2024 and 2025 in areas of flexible funding, where there are now no walls and no guidelines, that are having a significant improvement over the lives of disabled people\u2014this is important that we pass this legislation and we get on with the improvements that disabled people deserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f0d31505882949b1a768aad60863fba9\u0022 data-id=\u002271d797322affcfb556256a96e64d38d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f0d31505882949b1a768aad60863fba9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271d797322affcfb556256a96e64d38d2\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland) (12:15)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat debate on this question now close\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat debate on this question now close\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 11; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat clause 1 be agreed to\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 11; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat clause 2 be agreed to\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 48; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003ENoes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 11; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221a98bc5ad2633b3e5ed0c71db4587a13\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2026/27 Estimates) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221a98bc5ad2633b3e5ed0c71db4587a13\u0022\u003EDisability Support Services Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228cfac9d10089ac7d20fa3ea2e79e5869\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022 data-id=\u00222358e65a71f1eb636a965e2df359c613\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222358e65a71f1eb636a965e2df359c613\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor) (12:18)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Appropriation (2026/27 Estimates) Bill and reports that it has made progress on the bill. The committee has also considered the Disability Support Services Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the report be adopted\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002281c659ea5fe86cd79bc40456b85301f9\u0022\u003ESocial Security (Jobseeker Support and Accommodation Supplement) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223139a8bfc3ca8ecea3995291e0da869d\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2c8bd08fc2e28deac88dc5a222e7054\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1901a44e88e40d095f26c06ebac9721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2c8bd08fc2e28deac88dc5a222e7054\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment) (12:19)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EThat the Social Security (Jobseeker Support and Accommodation Supplement) Amendment Bill be now read a second time\u003C/span\u003E.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAs I\u2019ve said before, our Government believes that the welfare system should be a safety net for those who need it most. It should be there to support people when they generally need assistance, while encouraging those who can support themselves or who can reasonably be supported by their families to do so. New Zealanders deserve a welfare system that is firm, fair, and simple, and that\u2019s what this bill does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Social Security (Jobseeker Support and Accommodation Supplement) Amendment Bill amends the Social Security Act of 2018 to support fiscal sustainability in the welfare system by better targeting financial assistance to those most in need. As I outlined in the first reading, the bill has two policy components. Firstly, the bill tightens the eligibility criteria for jobseeker support and the equivalent emergency benefit for 18- and 19-year-olds by introducing a parental assistance test. When this initiative is implemented, young people will need to meet the parental assistance test criteria before they can access or continue to access one of those benefits. The initiative will reinforce the expectation that young people who are not in employment, education, or training should be financially supported by their parents instead of relying on the welfare system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere has been an increase in benefit dependency among young people. As of 2017, modelling has indicated that 18- and 19-year-olds on jobseeker support were projected to spend an average of 12 future years on a main benefit. However, more recent modelling indicates that this estimate has income. However, more recent modelling indicates that this estimate has increased to an average of 21 future years supported by a main benefit. That is why our Government is building a more active welfare system that supports more young people into work. Going on welfare when you\u2019re young is a trap, and it\u2019s not the future our Government wants for young people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETo meet the parental assistance test criteria, a young person will need to demonstrate that they have a support gap with their parents, meaning they cannot reasonably be expected to rely on their parents for financial support and/or their parents\u2019 incomes fall below the income limit. The support will be there for those who need it under this test.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESecondly, the bill targets the accommodation supplement more tightly for some homeowners. It increases the minimum weekly contribution some homeowners must make before they are eligible to receive the accommodation supplement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI would like to thank the Social Services and Community Committee for its careful consideration of the bill and to those members of the public and organisations who provided both written and oral submissions. The select committee received a number of submissions that commented on the parental support gap for jobseeker support. To be clear, the parental support gap test has been designed as a safety net to ensure that where parental support is not available or cannot reasonably be relied on, those young people will remain eligible for support. This test allows for a young person to provide relevant evidence to the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) to determine a parental support gap.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESome submitters raised concerns about the lack of details in the bill around the parental support gap test, and I acknowledge those concerns. The detail will be set out in secondary legislation, as provided for in the Social Security Act. This will be gazetted and published in the House to set clear and consistent guidelines for verification of parental support gaps. The secondary legislation will include the types of evidence that MSD can accept, criteria for who can verify a supporting statement, and the circumstances when MSD can nominate someone to verify a parental support gap.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThere were concerns about the impacts of the policy on those with disabilities. Firstly, impacted young people will continue to have access to supplementary payments from MSD, such as a disability allowance, where they are eligible for support. I want to make it clear that the Supported Living Payment is not in scope of this policy. This means no parental assistance test is required for young people who have a health condition, injury, or disability that permanently and severely restricts them in their ability to work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ERather than being on the jobseeker support, young people will have better future outcomes if they remain close to the labour market. To do this, the parental assistance test will apply to all grounds of jobseeker support to encourage young people into employment, education, or training.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EFor the accommodation supplement entry threshold change, many submitters were concerned that older and low-income homeowners may be impacted. I want to reassure the public that the entry threshold increase is not applied to New Zealand superannuation, the veterans pension, the Supported Living Payment and emergency benefit equivalent recipients or their partners. Our Government acknowledges that the circumstances of these recipients are less likely to change and they are likely to require longer-term social assistance. Generally, homeowners with the highest accommodation costs and those with the most support will not be affected by the entry threshold change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESeveral technical amendments were agreed through the select committee stage, and these provide greater clarity and ensure the legislation operates as intended. After its consideration of the bill, the Social Services and Community Committee has recommended the bill proceed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis bill ensures that financial support is targeted to where it is needed most. It encourages young people to move into work, study, or training. We will continue to support New Zealanders who have no other means of support available to them, but when individuals or their parents are able to provide that support, our expectation is that they should do so, not other taxpayers. I\u2019m confident that these changes will lead to better long-term outcomes for 18- and 19-year-olds and to support being provided to homeowners who need it the most. I look forward to seeing this bill through the remaining stages of the parliamentary process, and I recommend and commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2131b83f277099a3c405ad87e413592\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022 data-id=\u00223c4ba4441121476a3bf6a8fead57d103\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c4ba4441121476a3bf6a8fead57d103\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour) (12:26)\u003C/span\u003E: \u003Cspan lang=\u0022mi\u0022\u003ET\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare\u003C/span\u003E. The Minister for Social Development and Employment in her contribution talked about it being firm and fair, and statements like \u201Ca more active \u2026 system that supports young people into work.\u201D Labour opposes the Social Security (Jobseeker Support and Accommodation Supplement) Amendment Bill. This bill is yet another attack on people who are doing their best but are struggling to get by because of this Government\u2019s choices and that this Government is doing nothing to help them. Every day this Government is in power, their choices make it harder for people. Instead of helping New Zealanders get ahead, we\u2019ve got Christopher Luxon promising to fix the cost of living while his Government continuously makes choices that are making it worse, and this bill is one of those bad choices. We\u2019ve already seen National slash temporary additional support and make it harder for emergency housing, and this week we learnt that thousands of pensioners and veterans lost access to their winter energy payment because the Minister was in such a rush to put through that legislation and make life harder for people. Now we have this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI focus on the impacts of this bill on young people, but I want to note how detrimental the changes to the accommodation supplement will be for low-income earners in a cost of living crisis as well. But turning to young people, young people are suffering because there are no jobs for them. According to the Salvation Army, in the year to September 2025, the number of young people not in education, training, or employment was higher than it has been in 20 years. Many of these young people need jobseeker support to get by, and this Government wants to take that support away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESo what does this bill do? This bill makes it harder for rangatahi aged 18 to 19 years to access jobseeker. These are young adults stepping out into the world and trying to make independent lives for themselves, but this bill cuts them off at their knees and undermines their ability to exercise their own agency and develop as adults. Many have already had a lot of negative experiences in their lives. Moving into independence is a crucial step, but this bill undermines it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to point out for the House the Government\u2019s own document that summarises this situation well, and I want to read into the \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsCharacterItalics\u0022\u003EHansard\u003C/span\u003E because I think that every member of the House should hear this. The regulatory impact statement says, \u201CIn terms of impact on young people and their families, the costs will significantly outweigh the benefits.\u201D That\u2019s not the Labour Party saying this; this is the Ministry of Social Development that is saying this, and the Government proceeds anyway. We oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Minister for Social Development and Employment acknowledged those that had taken the time to make submissions and highlighted some of the issues and concerns in those submissions. Well, I note for the House today that 933 submissions were in scope and received by the select committee; only one supported the bill\u2014one. That\u2019s not a close call; that\u2019s a verdict.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELet me tell the House what some of those submissions said, because they deserve to be heard, even if this Government chose not to listen and to dismiss those concerns. The New Zealand Council of Trade Unions, who represent over 370,000\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ab32b09663ea48b199aa59e4d88f77e4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d92d228de7294f554057e2545a7789d\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225459b3c0726d42c1b6d3cc94ec303baa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9466f777e3abd08434a0cd78bd95041\u0022\u003EHon James Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ed982c22b1383233573e279ae9f47de\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, look at the laughs and the eye rolls on the other side because I mentioned that dirty word \u201Cunion\u201D to the other side. Well, they represent over 370,000 workers, and told the committee plainly that the bill will not achieve the stated intention of reducing benefit dependency among young people. In fact, they highlighted that youth unemployment has risen significantly. Oh, Minister for Youth over there\u2014maybe you might want to listen to this. But what they were at pains to point out is that this is not because young people have suddenly become lazy or uninterested in working; it\u2019s because they are trying to find work and there are just no jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOn top of this, young people generally have fewer skills and less experience simply because of their age, and the work that they are trying to find is concentrated in industries like hospitality and retail. Well, what\u2019s happened in hospitality since this Government came into power? They have been some of the most hardest hit industries in the economic downturns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI want to turn to the New Zealand Council of Christian Social Services, who also detailed the changes for young people finding work. Like we\u2019ve heard across the submissions, they pointed out that this bill will lead to increased financial hardship among wh\u0101nau who become financially responsible for young people unable to access work. Their first recommendation was simply this: do not proceed with it. Did the Minister listen? No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhat about the Salvation Army? They have worked for over 140 years, supporting around 130,000 people every year. They told the committee that this will only add complexity into what is already a highly complex system for vulnerable people to have to navigate and will make life harder. They also pointed out that this will reduce young peoples\u2019 access to the very services they need to get jobs\u2014that is employment support and training, things like helping with literacy and getting a driver\u2019s licence, which we know are the reasons that stop young people from getting work in the first place. So the Minister in her contribution said that this will be about a more active system that supports young people into work, but what submitters told us is that if they are not on the jobseeker benefit, then they have no access those very supports that they need to help them get into these jobs or \u201Cghost jobs\u201D, because where are all the jobs, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThen we have the Citizens Advice Bureau. In their submission, they referred to the Government\u2019s stated aims, which are to reduce benefit dependency, and they showed how this is at odds with the reality. Most young people who receive jobseeker support are already actively seeking work. They gave an example of Maia: \u201CMaia had a job she enjoyed in hospitality, but the business closed due to the recession and she lost her job. She has been looking for work, but due to limited opportunities, she has enrolled to study. She has run out of funds and with no work needs to apply for support.\u201D So the Citizens Advice Bureau emphasised what other submitters said: \u201CThe young people who come to CAB are not choosing benefits over employment. They are navigating insecure labour markets, rising housing costs, increasing food prices, transport barriers, mental health challenges, and limited opportunities.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI also turn to the submissions that we received for the impact that this will have on M\u0101ori. That was from Te Hunga Roia M\u0101ori\u2014the M\u0101ori Law Society\u2014and Pou Tangata on behalf of the National Iwi Chairs Forum. In Te Hunga Roia M\u0101ori\u2019s submission, they talked about how this had been developed once again without any meaningful engagement with M\u0101ori, despite the foreseeable impacts on M\u0101ori communities. As they state, this is \u201Cinconsistent with the Crown\u2019s obligations under Te Tiriti \u2026 Meaningful engagement requires M\u0101ori participation at a formative stage of policy development\u201D, not after things have already been settled. They submitted that the bill should be withdrawn. We agree with that\u2014the Government didn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPou Tangata also said that forcing rangatahi to legally declare their parents cannot support them places an undue burden on wh\u0101nau relationships, creating internal friction and shame within households already under financial duress, and ignores the reality that M\u0101ori communities face under the national employment rate, which is that the M\u0101ori unemployment rate is double that of the rest of New Zealand\u2014the general unemployment rate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Minister talked briefly about the impact on people with disabilities, and that came through again strongly in the submissions. Just like she ignored the submissions in the previous bill, she\u2019s ignored them here too. These are some of the reasons why submitters and Labour oppose this bill. The most effective way to support young people into employment is education, training, and tailored employment services; not punitive income tests, not parental means testing. We would invest in young people on this side of the House. This Government is divesting from them. So 930 submitters told this committee the bill should not proceed. Labour agrees with them, but that side of the House just ignored it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa6ad1771f05e46188fafa5f3f54a7af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa6ad1771f05e46188fafa5f3f54a7af\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green) (12:36)\u003C/span\u003E: The National Party is all about breaking the basics and ruining the future for young people. This bill is just the latest example of their ongoing beneficiary bashing attacks on the poor, while they cut thousands of jobs and leave children growing up in poverty with worsening material conditions. That is not my view; that is a fact. The Government has been told that as a result of decisions that they have made, more children are growing up in households where they do not have enough to meet their basic essentials.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETell me how cutting benefits for thousands of sick, injured, and disabled young people fixes the basics. Tell me how pretending that sick and injured and disabled young people who have been deemed by Work and Income to not be able to work full time will just magically be able to transition into training or education. Tell me how a young person who is seeing a hiring freeze on our public healthcare system will be wanting to go into a healthcare profession, only to find themselves with a massive student loan and no job to go into. None of the provisions of this bill help address the basics, which is that we\u2019ve got a Government that has been focused on cutting jobs, rather than creating them; that has been focused on worsening material conditions for students, rather than improving them; that has been focused on stripping the sick and injured and disabled people of the support that they need, instead of improving it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Minister, in her previous speech on the previous bill, conceded that disabled people have it hard. Well, then, why cut thousands of sick and injured and disabled peoples\u2019 income support as part of this bill? Thousands of people on jobseeker, health, injury, and disability benefits will be affected as part of this bill. For any member of the Government who will say, \u201COh, they can just go on the supported living payment.\u201D, I urge you to go out to the streets. Talk to a single bloody beneficiary for once. Talk to them about the challenges that they face getting on the supported living payment. Talk to them about the fact that they face humongous hurdles trying to get into a benefit that has huge barriers, not just because it requires you to be able to afford the cost of going to a GP\u2014it requires you to go to a GP that, for example, will actually be cognisant and competent on disability issues. And it requires Work and Income to choose to not challenge a doctor\u2014a trained medical professional\u2014with a board that can often have people who haven\u2019t practised for years to, basically, decline the comments from a doctor. It should come as no surprise that we\u2019ve got members from the ACT Party, for example, further wanting to restrict access to the supported living payment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll tell you who exactly is having their incomes taken away from them. This is coming off the select committee\u2019s own documents. We\u2019ve got people who are facing psychological or psychiatric conditions\u2014that\u2019s almost 70 percent of the people who are on jobseeker, injury, health condition, or disability benefits. So much for a Government that cares about our youth mental health crisis. We\u2019ve got people who are facing cardiovascular disorders, who have faced accidents that have left them unable to work, complications of trauma, pregnancy-related issues, congenital conditions including cancer, infectious and parasitic diseases, muscular skeletal system disorder, respiratory disorders, genitourinary disorders, blood and blood forming organs, skin disorders, digesting system disorders, nervous system disorders, immune system disorders, metabolic and endocrine disorders, intellectual disability sensory disorders, and other conditions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETell me how cutting the benefits of people who are facing those conditions does anything to fix the basics rather than ruining their lives. Cutting income support for people who are sick, injured, and disabled worsens their health conditions. I find it so galling and telling that the Minister, when I\u2019ve asked her in question time about this very same serious issue, she goes, \u201COh, well, people can still access hardship grants for food\u201D. You\u2019re telling families that they should go and line up at food banks and Work and Income to continue to survive while their kids are sick, injured, or disabled? What kind of safety net is that? What kind of future are we trying to provide for young people who are unwell? Their health conditions and their injuries will not improve as a result of cutting that very same income support. You will worsen them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt doesn\u2019t take an expert to know that if you\u2019re injured or sick and you deprive people of that support, you\u2019ll be leaving them worse off. Then the Minister talked about \u201COh, well, don\u2019t worry, there\u2019s a parental income test\u201D. How much is the parental income test? It\u2019s $67,000 total as a household. That means that if you\u2019re deemed to earn as a household over $67,000\u2014that means, for example, two parents\u2019 combined incomes\u2014you won\u2019t be eligible for a benefit. Tell me what family in this cost of greed crisis can actually afford their basic essentials with two parents, perhaps two children, with a total combined income of $67,000. Not many. It just shows that this Government is completely out of touch with the lived realities of working families. Putting more pressure on parents who are simply trying their best while also stripping those parents of the support that their children would have been eligible for before they turn 18\u2014it just does not make sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIf we look at some other components of the bill that cut the accommodation supplement for low-income homeowners, it tells you exactly who this Government is serving. They have rushed legislation to support property investors, but when it comes to low-income people who have maybe finally saved enough for their first home\u2014yep, we\u2019re stripping them of support. How much? On average, $40 a week. That $40 a week for a low-income family is actually the difference between being able to keep the lights on or put food on the table. The people who they\u2019re cutting support from include people who are in work\u2014in fact, the large majority of people who are affected by this, of a single group, are non-beneficiaries. They\u2019re not just targeting people on the benefit: they\u2019re targeting working families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EIt also includes solo parents, who perhaps finally managed to build a life, to get a home, and are just trying to pay the mortgage off. It includes people who have become injured or sick as well and have had to go on a benefit temporarily. We\u2019re not talking about the 18- and 19-year-olds who the Minister continuously and erroneously claims that they\u2019re going to be\u2014she kind of presents it as 20 years continuously on the benefit. We\u2019re talking about people who may just need support for a handful of months while they get better. But I guess it\u2019s OK because, at the end of the day, the Minister says that she\u2019s targeting support to those who need it while claiming $50,000-plus of accommodation benefits herself. That is not serious. You can\u2019t take a Minister seriously when she says, \u201CWe\u2019re targeting support to those who need it the most.\u201D while she cuts income support for those who actually needed it, and she claims tens of thousands of dollars to pay for a property that she does not have debt on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EShame on this Government for showing us who they\u2019re serving, which is not everyday working families. Those 18- and 19-year-olds on a benefit, yeah, they\u2019re supported by and large by working parents\u2014working parents whose lives this Government is choosing to make harder. Again, I just cannot see how Government members on the other side can give us their 10-second contribution telling us that this is a bill about fixing the basics and building the future, as though it was a ChatGPT-produced speech, when they\u2019re doing the exact opposite. They cannot even tell us how exactly this bill will reduce the number of years that someone spends on a benefit, other than by just simply taking that benefit away. It\u2019s not because they\u2019ve created better employment outcomes, and we know that. Young people are applying for countless jobs; we\u2019ve got news stories of jobs that have had hundreds, if not over a thousand applicants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe know that in this economic system, unemployment is baked in by design. No matter whether it\u2019s Labour or National in Government, unemployment has been a fixture of the economy. You will not tell us that you\u2019ve got a National Party that wants to reduce unemployment to zero. It\u2019s not correct. They don\u2019t want to\u2014they never wanted to. They have never, ever stated that their intention is to reduce unemployment to as close to zero percent as is possible. They have always intended to have a group unemployed, living below the poverty line, and desperate to take any job no matter how poor the conditions are. When you compound that with a legislative agenda that has worsened conditions for low-income workers, it tells you that this isn\u2019t a Government that is ruling for working families but instead for their mates, who are actually benefiting from the policies that they\u2019re putting forward\u2014whether it\u2019s people in the fossil fuel industry, or whether it\u2019s property investors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe Green Party is committed to repealing this legislation and building a safety net that actually provides tailored support for young people who want to go into education, who want to go into training, who want to get a job\u2014and a safety need that honours the dignity of people who are injured, who are sick, and who are disabled, rather than taking those very benefits away. I dare for those members of the other side to justify taking benefits away from cancer patients or people who are struggling with psychiatric conditions. Justify it. Look at the select committee report and tell me that you don\u2019t know that you\u2019re actually taking the benefits of thousands of people who are sick, injured, or disabled away. Tell me that you don\u2019t know. Justify it\u2014I dare you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b064dd56673f4c1cb11c1242823abb92\u0022 data-id=\u00229a46042a0c8efd569ebe66113b65cc33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b064dd56673f4c1cb11c1242823abb92\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a46042a0c8efd569ebe66113b65cc33\u0022\u003ELAURA McCLURE (ACT) (12:46)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Firstly, in response to the previous member Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u2019s comments, this bill does not take away the supported living payment for those with the likes of cancer and a lot of the conditions that the previous member spoke about, or the disability support. There were submitters that came to us who had been whipped up in a fear that this would happen by, quite honestly, members from that side of the House. That is not what is happening with this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe cannot unlock the potential of the next generation if we say that it\u2019s OK to be at home and not in education or work. That is completely not acceptable. This side of the House and the ACT Party has way bigger ambitions and goals for our young people, and we will not allow them to just sit at home. If you\u2019re a student and you\u2019re in education, your parents\u2019 income is tested before you get student allowance. How is it fair that an 18-year-old could get the jobseeker payment and that not be income tested? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe are not saying that you can\u2019t go on jobseeker if you don\u2019t have parental support; we are merely saying that if you do, and you\u2019re living at home, and you\u2019re with your parents, you have to have that income tested. I think that is actually fair and reasonable, because we can\u2019t have people not in education and not in work.  They still have the other supports that the Ministry of Social Development offer around helping getting young people into work, which I think is a really important thing to note: CV help, matching them with employers\u2014all of that still exists under this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to the accommodation support, yes, the criteria has changed, and that means that some people who own their own home may have a reduction or will have a reduction in the amount that they get for their accommodation support. But think about the people who don\u2019t own their own home\u2014the ones that are way far behind. They\u2019re going to be receiving an extra $30 a week, I think it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9dc71c4c66cdd74828c3d437db372e0\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s like $12.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b064dd56673f4c1cb11c1242823abb92\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ffb3d877666bebf029c6e69c3733f1b\u0022\u003ELAURA McCLURE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think it\u2019s between $10 and $30, depending on who they are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228954c5affeb24a8ddb3f6d7e15f8780d\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re taking $40 away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b064dd56673f4c1cb11c1242823abb92\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6b56d6f3370faa4ed7d34937b1470c5\u0022\u003ELAURA McCLURE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we can clarify that. But they will be receiving an additional payment in the next coming months. I think that is really important to acknowledge that nothing has been cut here. We\u2019re actually redistributing money to those that really desperately need it, and we are not going to incentivise staying on a benefit if you\u2019re 18, because we actually care about the next generation. We want to unlock their potential, and we\u2019re not going to do that if they\u2019re sitting on the couch and playing PlayStation at home with mum and dad. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022 data-id=\u002268a6a0399781f34ab4c5fba89eed0f56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268a6a0399781f34ab4c5fba89eed0f56\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green) (12:49)\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek leave to table pages 12 and 13 of the advice given to us by the Ministry of Social Development that shows that there are thousands of people with health conditions affected by this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d06a80917843b099c273666c9a348241\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: As a select committee document, that is readily available to all members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002201f738f244724e5b8da066dba7a6a526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd0386c6bfeeda9fa56b4af4da16ca72\u0022\u003EDr Tracey McLellan\u003C/span\u003E: Not to ACT, by the sounds of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8d6b0e60c206d0cf4a4c7966d589513\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not aware if it\u2019s been published, but it seems like they\u2019re not aware of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fb21532cb8827936fec3ef6da74bfab\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cead245979268b657795b06f0a4cfbef\u0022\u003EHon Members: \u003C/span\u003EYes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e4b04d43dffe794db4ae4f8903ca3cf\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f6c5b1a97f24773a8aaeb3a8e3b0e7b\u0022 data-id=\u00226d7dbbc85d3360542a98222adcd42036\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f6c5b1a97f24773a8aaeb3a8e3b0e7b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d7dbbc85d3360542a98222adcd42036\u0022\u003EJAMIE ARBUCKLE (NZ First) (12:49)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to support the Social Security (Jobseeker Support and Accommodation Supplement) Amendment Bill. One of the first priorities for New Zealand First is the employment of New Zealanders. That is, in our planning, a priority and one of the first things we think about as a party in this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI was able to sit on the Social Services and Community Committee for this. We heard 87 oral submissions, and over 935 submissions in total. I do agree with the Minister: the welfare system is a safety net, and the first priority here is looking at the jobseeker\u2014it\u2019s about the eligibility criteria for jobseeker support and the emergency benefits for those aged 18 and 19 years old. In the first reading speech, I talked about our young people being our future, and they are the people that we want to see, firstly, in work, or education or training. That\u2019s the principle here\u2014that we want to see our young people either in work and, if they can\u2019t find work, in education and training. We do not want to see our young people on jobseeker benefits and becoming dependent on benefits. What we learnt and have learnt is that if young people start on benefits at a young age, their dependency can be up to decades. As a country, we want to be a productive country, and to be a productive country we need our youngest and brightest people to be in training, education, or they need to be in work. So it\u2019s a very simple process from this side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe second part of this bill was the entry threshold for the accommodation supplement. Again, it was very clear that this hadn\u2019t been reviewed since 1993. Obviously, the threshold here is increasing from 30 percent to 40 percent, but, proudly, New Zealand First want to highlight that it will not impact New Zealand superannuation and it will not impact those on the veterans pension. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThis is a very common-sense update to this bill, getting our young people into work. That\u2019s what we strive for in this country and on this side of the Government. Hearing from the Opposition, it sounds like they want everybody on the couch and going to the ATM every week to get their money. On that, I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1c4ed2e2791e7ccf4b9329f7193000a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: A five-minute split call\u2014Oriini Kaipara.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b11bafcf5b5427480393ffeef4fe6e8\u0022 data-id=\u0022269af28e4ca3610adb7037963975a75e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b11bafcf5b5427480393ffeef4fe6e8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022269af28e4ca3610adb7037963975a75e\u0022\u003EORIINI KAIPARA (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014T\u0101maki Makaurau) (12:52)\u003C/span\u003E: I give rise to the voices of those who are looking after rangatahi on the front lines, especially in T\u0101maki-makau-rau. The question is, where do they go? The Minister and their Government still cannot answer that. When an 18-year-old has no job, no income, this Government is asking, \u201CHow much do your parents earn? How much do mum and dad earn?\u201D I\u2019m asking something very different: \u201CAre you OK? Are you safe? How can I help, and what can we do right now to stop you from being homeless?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s the difference between this bill and my youth homelessness prevention bill. At first reading, I warned this House about the assumption sitting underneath this very policy: that every rangatahi has parents who can support them, that every home is safe, that every wh\u0101nau has money to spare. Well, guess what! They don\u2019t. A parent\u2019s income on paper isn\u2019t a home, it doesn\u2019t mean there\u2019s a spare bedroom, and it doesn\u2019t mean that relationship is safe. In T\u0101maki-makau-rau, where wh\u0101nau are already stretched by rent, food, power, transport, medical and dental bills, even school costs, it certainly doesn\u2019t mean that there\u2019s money left over to support another adult. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWhen you take income away from one rangatahi, where are they supposed to go? If they end up on nan\u2019s couch, you haven\u2019t solved benefit dependency. If they end up sleeping in a car, you haven\u2019t created independence. If they end up in emergency housing or, worse, out on the streets, you have not saved the Crown money. If they end up on the street, every single one of us in this House has failed them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why I introduced my youth homelessness prevention bill, because I refuse to accept that we have to wait until our rangatahi is homeless before the State acts. My bill starts earlier. See the warning signs, step in, keep them housed, connect them to community, and then help them into education and into training, and then into mahi\u2014into work. That is prevention. That is what social investment should actually look like, not removing a young person from one Government spreadsheet and declaring success, because getting someone off a benefit isn\u2019t the same thing as getting somebody into a job, and it sure as hell isn\u2019t success if we get them into homelessness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EI\u2019m putting this Government on notice. At committee stage, I will ask this House to remove the parental income regime and, if the Government refuses, I will move amendments to protect our rangatahi. If taking away their income puts them at risk of homelessness, they should keep their support. If the Government says they can go home, prove that home exists; prove that it is safe, prove that it is actually available to them. And if the Minister genuinely believes that that this policy will improve young people\u2019s lives, measure what happens to them. Tell us how many enter into work and how many leave work. Tell us how many enter into education and leave successfully, and tell us how many end up needing emergency housing or homeless, because there\u2019s something seriously wrong with the direction that we are heading in. This Parliament is considering laws that make it harder for some rangatahi to access income when they bloody need it, and laws that make it easier to move people on once homelessness becomes visible in our public places. You think about that: make it harder to stay afloat and then, if they end up on the street, move them on. That\u2019s not a pathway forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWe offer one. It exists in this House right now. Don\u2019t wait for homelessness; prevent it. House our rangatahi, back our wh\u0101nau, and intervene early. Give our rangatahi, our young people, enough stability to get back into mahi\u2014to get a mahi\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c110b92753074f803043bd8928d1ec9f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Now, the member\u2019s got one minute left. She should refer what happened at select committee, which is the real purpose of the second reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b11bafcf5b5427480393ffeef4fe6e8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fcf021323ede119b3f0557200f9f0ba\u0022\u003EORIINI KAIPARA\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m nearly done, Mr Speaker, thank you. Get them into mahi, education, and training, and stop measuring success by how many people we can remove from a benefit. Measure success by how many rangatahi never become homeless in the first place. And to every member preparing to vote this bill in, when a rangatahi loses their income, when home isn\u2019t safe, when mum and dad aren\u2019t an option, where do they go? If you can\u2019t answer that question, you have no business taking their safety net away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226360f1a1c2205b0b3517d06391d24674\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just reminding that member that a second reading speech is required to make reference to what happened at select committee, as well as other contextual matters. Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair. The debate is interrupted and set down for resumption next sitting day, and the House is adjourned until 2.00 p.m. today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202608190b4dc6d8862dc444d0001426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022CharacterBoldCentred\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 12.58 p.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"